From rsholmes@m... Mon Apr 08 09:44:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rsholmes@M... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 8 Apr 2002 16:44:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 16657 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2002 16:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2002 16:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailer.syr.edu) (128.230.18.29) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2002 16:44:53 -0000 Received: from rodan.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0082F57A@m...>; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:44:53 -0400 Received: (from rsholmes@localhost) by rodan.syr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27191; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:44:52 -0400 (EDT) To: n_omic@yahoogroups.com, thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) References: Date: 08 Apr 2002 12:44:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Craig"'s message of "Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:51:40 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 199 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 X-eGroups-From: rsholmes@M... (Richard S. Holmes) From: rsholmes@m... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38226324 X-Yahoo-Profile: rsholmes Interesting ruleset, to say the least. I have no idea how playable it will turn out to be! I have a number of quibbles and questions (and one compliment) though: "Craig" writes: > 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to > kill it. Hah! I like this rule. Unenforceable, but... > 4.1 Every rule shall have a number which uniquely identifies it. How does it acquire this number? Is the number part of the rule, and therefore specified when the rule is proposed? What happens if someone proposes a new rule but fails to specify a unique number for it? Is "4.1" a number, or two numbers? That is, does "number" refer to a non-integer number expressed in decimal form, or to a pair of integers separated by a dot? Can a rule number be negative, zero, irrational, transcendental, imaginary? See also question about 3.2. > 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, > followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. How does a new rule acquire its position in the ruleset? Must the part of the rule number before the dot be the same as that of the other rules in the same group and different from that of rules in any other group? Must rules occur in numerical order? No, obviously not, since they don't. Must rules in any particular group occur in numerical order? Does it matter? > 4.6 The Official Mailing List is > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail > at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Why's this in the Rules group? > 4.8 The version of the ruleset archived at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/files/ruleset shall be the only > official version. Is this taken to mean no rule change takes effect until it is administered into this file? > 5.0 A proposal consists of a suggested change to the game. Exactly one change? If so, then see 1.1 for a possible problem. If not, then see 6.6 for a possible problem. "Change to the game" is ambiguous at best -- in some Nomics it's hard to do better, but in this one, what about something like A proposal consists of a suggested creation or destruction of a Thing. (This, if adopted without further refinement, would probably have effects different from what your version intended. For instance, groups and commentaries would not be able to be changed.) > 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has > been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. I see no prohibition of putting multiple proposals in one submission. Is this intended? If a submission contains multiple suggested changes is it a proposal, multiple proposals, or neither? > 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. What happens to them if they do? > 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one of the Three Sacred Laws > passes if and only if... > 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one of the Three Sacred Laws passes > if and only if, What about a proposal which suggests altering two or more of the Three Sacred Laws? Or is that not possible? Is destruction "altering"? > 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. Which seems to suggest, no, you do NOT have to wait until the archived ruleset is changed before a rule change takes effect. If so, in what sense is the archived ruleset an "official version"? > 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or > removing it. If a proposal may make multiple changes, then modifying a rule can be accomplished by removing it and adding the modified version. > 9.0 Any in-game item is a Thing, with the exception of Therms. > > 9.1 Currently, the types of Things are as follows: Rules, players, > proposals, offices, and points. This seems redundant and/or contradictory. For example: what about rule commentaries? They are items specified by the ruleset, hence would seem to be Things according to 9.0, but according to 9.1 they are not. How about something like: 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. > 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. Again: immediately, or when the official ruleset is edited? > 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. What if that player is destroyed? What happens to eir Things? How is the quality of being possessed acquired or lost? Is it legal to propose a rule which creates new Things (other than a player or a Rule) without proposing a rule to specify how those Things acquire possessors? Or would such a rule simply be regarded as contradicting 9.7? > 9.8 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the > group headed OFFICES > > 9.9 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. Why not put these as the first two rules of the OFFICES group? > 10.1 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any > random decisions necessary. What happens if e fails to? Who tallies and keeps track of the Things? Who administers the ruleset? > 10.2 The Speaker may not deregister. What if e does? Note that the deregistration rules, which have higher priority than this rule, specify means by which any player can deregister. > 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would increase the number of > Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group > headed FIRST SACRED LAW. Does this mean no rule change may add a new rule, unless some other Thing also is destroyed (or it's submitted as a registration proposal)? But wouldn't that be two changes, hence prohibited by 5.0? Therefore there can be no new rules except those proposed in registration proposals. Unless the new rule itself mandates immediate destruction of a Thing, but if that's allowable, it's an ugly loophole in the "a proposal is a single suggested change" idea. Suppose rule 1.2 were destroyed, and someone proposed a "new rule" with the same text as the destroyed rule 1.2. Its passage would create a new rule, and a new player (if, as argued above, this could happen only in a registration proposal). So far so good. But now another registration proposal comes along, it passes, and at least one new Thing is created. Indirectly, the first proposal (to restore rule 1.2) made this possible, so one could say that proposal has increased the number of Things by 3. I assume that's not the sort of thing you meant. Perhaps the word "directly" before "increase" would clarify this. But what does "directly" mean? > 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number > of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and all Therms are > destroyed. I see no effect defined in the present rules of the creation, existence, or destruction of Therms. Is this intended? > 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule, > the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. By what means is it determined that such conflicts exist? And in general, by what means are actions of disputed legality handled? If a rule in one of the TSLs conflicts with another rule in one of the TSLs, then what does "the rule in the Sacred Law" refer to? Probably what was intended that 3.2 would apply in this case, but it would reduce ambiguity to replace "another rule" with "a rule not in one of the TSLs". > 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number > takes precedence. Is, e.g., 4.10 lower or higher than 4.9? -- - Rich Holmes Syracuse, NY From rsholmes@m... Mon Apr 08 10:13:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rsholmes@M... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 8 Apr 2002 17:13:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 78342 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2002 17:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2002 17:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailer.syr.edu) (128.230.18.29) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2002 17:13:06 -0000 Received: from rodan.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0082F87F@m...>; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:13:05 -0400 Received: (from rsholmes@localhost) by rodan.syr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03172; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:13:05 -0400 (EDT) To: n_omic@yahoogroups.com, thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) References: Date: 08 Apr 2002 13:13:05 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 X-eGroups-From: rsholmes@M... (Richard S. Holmes) From: rsholmes@m... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38226324 X-Yahoo-Profile: rsholmes > 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number > of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and all Therms are > destroyed. Also... here and elsewhere, "receive" is misspelled. -- - Rich Holmes Syracuse, NY From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 08 14:56:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@i... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 8 Apr 2002 21:56:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 98547 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2002 21:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2002 21:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2002 21:56:05 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.90] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id A20517820132; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:56:21 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 17:56:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to >> kill it. >Hah! I like this rule. Unenforceable, but... Of course. This is just a gentle reminder to all who are contemplating anything. >> 4.1 Every rule shall have a number which uniquely identifies it. >How does it acquire this number? Is the number part of the rule, and >therefore specified when the rule is proposed? What happens if >someone proposes a new rule but fails to specify a unique number for ?it? The number is part of a rule. Perhaps we should add a stipulation about that. >Is "4.1" a number, or two numbers? That is, does "number" refer to a >non-integer number expressed in decimal form, or to a pair of integers >separated by a dot? Can a rule number be negative, zero, irrational, >transcendental, imaginary? See also question about 3.2. 4.1 is meant to be a single number, which happens not to be an integer. 4.0 is also a single number, but it is an integer. I'll put something in about making the numbers have to be real. >> 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, >> followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. >How does a new rule acquire its position in the ruleset? Must the >part of the rule number before the dot be the same as that of the >other rules in the same group and different from that of rules in any >other group? Must rules occur in numerical order? No, obviously not, >since they don't. Must rules in any particular group occur in >numerical order? Does it matter? I don't think it matters what position they are in, though I would assume that the group they are in is specified by the proposal - though not necessarily, so if you have any ideas about what to do then, say so. >> 4.6 The Official Mailing List is >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail >> at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com >Why's this in the Rules group? Oopsie. >> 4.8 The version of the ruleset archived at >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/files/ruleset shall be the only >> official version. >Is this taken to mean no rule change takes effect until it is >administered into this file? Oopsie again. I'll just delete that rule. >> 5.0 A proposal consists of a suggested change to the game. >Exactly one change? If so, then see 1.1 for a possible problem. If >not, then see 6.6 for a possible problem. I meant it to be 'one change' in that it happens all at once, but you could change five rules and ten commentaries in one fell swoop. >>"Change to the game" is ambiguous at best -- in some Nomics it's hard >>to do better, but in this one, what about something like > A proposal consists of a suggested creation or destruction of a > Thing. >(This, if adopted without further refinement, would probably have >effects different from what your version intended. For instance, >groups and commentaries would not be able to be changed.) Hmm... how about: A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. >> 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has >> been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. >I see no prohibition of putting multiple proposals in one submission. >Is this intended? If a submission contains multiple suggested changes >is it a proposal, multiple proposals, or neither? See my answer to 5.0. It is a proposal. >> 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. >What happens to them if they do? That's a good question. Ideas, anyone? >> 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one of the Three Sacred Laws >> passes if and only if... >> 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one of the Three Sacred Laws passes >> if and only if, >What about a proposal which suggests altering two or more of the Three >Sacred Laws? Or is that not possible? I'll change those to one or more. >Is destruction "altering"? Yes. >> 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. >Which seems to suggest, no, you do NOT have to wait until the archived >ruleset is changed before a rule change takes effect. If so, in what >sense is the archived ruleset an "official version"? I agree, and will strike the 'official version' rule. >> 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or >> removing it. >If a proposal may make multiple changes, then modifying a rule can be >accomplished by removing it and adding the modified version. Is that bad? If that is what you have to do to modify a rule, it will be less common than simple addition and deletion, but I for one would not want to rule it out entirely. Do you? >> 9.0 Any in-game item is a Thing, with the exception of Therms. >> >> 9.1 Currently, the types of Things are as follows: Rules, players, >> proposals, offices, and points. >This seems redundant and/or contradictory. For example: what about >rule commentaries? They are items specified by the ruleset, hence >would seem to be Things according to 9.0, but according to 9.1 they >are not. >How about something like: > 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. > 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. Wow. Much better. >> 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. >Again: immediately, or when the official ruleset is edited? Immediately. >> 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. >What if that player is destroyed? What happens to eir Things? Hmm. I suggest that they be randomly redistributed, but I bet that would be unpopular. I will propose that as soon as we begin the game. >How is the quality of being possessed acquired or lost? Is it legal >to propose a rule which creates new Things (other than a player or a >Rule) without proposing a rule to specify how those Things acquire >possessors? Or would such a rule simply be regarded as contradicting >9.7? Very good questions. Any ideas? >> 9.8 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the >> group headed OFFICES >> >> 9.9 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. >Why not put these as the first two rules of the OFFICES group? Good idea, I will. >> 10.1 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any >> random decisions necessary. >What happens if e fails to? All rules which require or forbid things need penalties. I don't have any clue what to do for those myself; if anyone else does then speak up. >>Who tallies and keeps track of the Things? The speaker probably should, I'll add that. >>Who administers the ruleset? Well, if we delete the official version rule, anyone who feels like it. >> 10.2 The Speaker may not deregister. >What if e does? Note that the deregistration rules, which have higher >priority than this rule, specify means by which any player can >deregister. Ick. How about if we get rid of this? >> 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would increase the number of >> Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group >> headed FIRST SACRED LAW. >Does this mean no rule change may add a new rule, unless some other >Thing also is destroyed (or it's submitted as a registration >proposal)? But wouldn't that be two changes, hence prohibited by 5.0? Yes, but the way 5.0 was meant and the way I'm phrasing it for the next draft, it would be permitted. >Therefore there can be no new rules except those proposed in >registration proposals. Unless the new rule itself mandates immediate >destruction of a Thing, but if that's allowable, it's an ugly >loophole in the "a proposal is a single suggested change" idea. >Suppose rule 1.2 were destroyed, and someone proposed a "new rule" >with the same text as the destroyed rule 1.2. Its passage would >create a new rule, and a new player (if, as argued above, this could >happen only in a registration proposal). So far so good. But now >another registration proposal comes along, it passes, and at least one >new Thing is created. Indirectly, the first proposal (to restore rule >1.2) made this possible, so one could say that proposal has increased >the number of Things by 3. >I assume that's not the sort of thing you meant. Perhaps the word >"directly" before "increase" would clarify this. But what does >"directly" mean? Yeah, you're right. I'll include a directly. >> 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number >> of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and all Therms are >> destroyed. >I see no effect defined in the present rules of the creation, >existence, or destruction of Therms. Is this intended? Hmm... I thought I included a bit about how they appear, and I will rephrase that as 'the number of Therms is set to zero.' at the end. >> 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule, >> the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. >By what means is it determined that such conflicts exist? And in >general, by what means are actions of disputed legality handled? I don't see a need to put a judiciary in the initial ruleset, though I would encourage proposals of them when we begin, and I will support any decent ones. >If a rule in one of the TSLs conflicts with another rule in one of the >TSLs, then what does "the rule in the Sacred Law" refer to? >Probably what was intended that 3.2 would apply in this case, but it >would reduce ambiguity to replace "another rule" with "a rule not in >one of the TSLs". I will do so. > 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number > takes precedence. Is, e.g., 4.10 lower or higher than 4.9? Since 4.10 = 4.1, it is a lower number. From rsholmes@m... Mon Apr 08 19:13:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rsholmes@M... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 9 Apr 2002 02:13:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 2893 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2002 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Apr 2002 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailer.syr.edu) (128.230.18.29) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2002 02:13:08 -0000 Received: from rodan.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00833413@m...>; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 22:13:08 -0400 Received: (from rsholmes@localhost) by rodan.syr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10147; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 22:13:07 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) References: Date: 08 Apr 2002 22:13:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Craig"'s message of "Mon, 8 Apr 2002 17:56:03 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 X-eGroups-From: rsholmes@M... (Richard S. Holmes) From: rsholmes@m... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38226324 X-Yahoo-Profile: rsholmes Most of my comments and questions, of course, addressed fairly minor things. But this ruleset is missing two things which, I believe, ought to be present in at least rudimentary form in any ruleset: a graceful way to transfer responsibilities when necessary (with or without the cooperation of the person whose responsibilities are being transferred), and a judicial system. Neither needs to be very elaborate at the start, but I absolutely believe it's a mistake to omit them and hope they'll be defined once the game gets going. All too many Nomics have died in infancy due to a lack of one or the other. -- - Rich Holmes Syracuse, NY From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 09 17:37:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@i... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 10 Apr 2002 00:37:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 31179 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2002 00:37:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2002 00:37:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2002 00:37:12 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.90] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9553232013C; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 20:37:41 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 20:37:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I meant to post this to the group, but have gotten unused to sensible reply policies in Nomic and hit the wrong reply button. -----Original Message----- From: Craig [mailto:raganok@i...] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 6:19 PM To: rsholmes@m... Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) >Most of my comments and questions, of course, addressed fairly minor >things. But this ruleset is missing two things which, I believe, >ought to be present in at least rudimentary form in any ruleset: a >graceful way to transfer responsibilities when necessary (with or >without the cooperation of the person whose responsibilities are being >transferred), and a judicial system. Neither needs to be very >elaborate at the start, but I absolutely believe it's a mistake to >omit them and hope they'll be defined once the game gets going. All >too many Nomics have died in infancy due to a lack of one or the >other. I will modify the initial rules to allow proposals to change the possessor of Things. I currently have no ideas for a judiciary, and at the point where we start suggesting ideas and voting on which one to use, we have already begun the game. If all three of us want to start now, I don't mind doing so, but until we do start I will not add a judiciary to the initial rules unless you two can agree on its best form, and I will then add it in the form you agree on. From rsholmes@m... Wed Apr 10 07:08:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rsholmes@M... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 10 Apr 2002 14:08:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 5719 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2002 14:07:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2002 14:07:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailer.syr.edu) (128.230.18.29) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2002 14:07:32 -0000 Received: from rodan.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0083EE80@m...>; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:07:32 -0400 Received: (from rsholmes@localhost) by rodan.syr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19983; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:07:31 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) References: Date: 10 Apr 2002 10:07:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Craig"'s message of "Tue, 9 Apr 2002 20:37:19 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 X-eGroups-From: rsholmes@M... (Richard S. Holmes) From: rsholmes@m... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38226324 X-Yahoo-Profile: rsholmes "Craig" writes: > I will modify the initial rules to allow proposals to change the possessor > of Things. By "transfer of responsibility" I mean procedures to continue the game if the Speaker wants to resign, or disappears, or fails to execute eir duties. Lack of such has killed numerous Nomics early. I would not advise starting with any fewer than five or so players, preferably more. -- - Rich Holmes Syracuse, NY From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 10 07:53:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@i... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 10 Apr 2002 14:53:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 45260 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2002 14:40:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2002 14:40:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2002 14:40:27 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.90] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEFE1DE9012C; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:41:02 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset comments (was Re: [n_omic] SPAM: ThermodyNomic) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:40:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I will modify the initial rules to allow proposals to change the possessor >> of Things. >By "transfer of responsibility" I mean procedures to continue the game >if the Speaker wants to resign, or disappears, or fails to execute eir >duties. Lack of such has killed numerous Nomics early. And is there a better way to do that than to have the Speaker change, which means changing the posessor of the Office? >I would not advise starting with any fewer than five or so players, >preferably more. Neither would I, but it would be unnomical for me to refuse to start if everybody else wanted to. I'm glad to see they don't. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 14 23:46:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13028 invoked by uid 7800); 15 Apr 2002 06:46:02 -0000 Date: 15 Apr 2002 06:46:02 -0000 Message-ID: <1018853162.84661721.31249.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 19 05:25:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@i... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 19 Apr 2002 12:25:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 50842 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2002 12:25:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2002 12:25:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2002 12:25:30 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.90] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACC3536A0124; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:25:39 -0400 To: Subject: Suggested Judicial System Rules Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:25:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl If y'all don't mind, I will add this to the starting rules of Thermo: JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 28 03:10:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 58137 invoked by uid 7800); 28 Apr 2002 10:10:33 -0000 Date: 28 Apr 2002 10:10:33 -0000 Message-ID: <1019988633.10533004.90288.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Wed May 15 01:18:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 79442 invoked by uid 7800); 15 May 2002 08:18:32 -0000 Date: 15 May 2002 08:18:32 -0000 Message-ID: <1021450712.263011668.17481.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Tue May 28 23:38:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23336 invoked by uid 7800); 29 May 2002 06:38:10 -0000 Date: 29 May 2002 06:38:10 -0000 Message-ID: <1022654290.256989229.87150.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From kellyia@e... Tue Jun 04 15:40:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 4 Jun 2002 22:40:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 81300 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 22:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2002 22:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 22:40:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2002 22:40:31 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 22:40:31 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: File - ruleset Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1022654290.256989229.87150.m12@yahoogroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1540 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "peristarkawan" X-Originating-IP: 159.28.32.35 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan > 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. > > 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. If the number of votes cast FOR a proposal exceed the number of AGAINST / ABSTAIN votes at any given time before it expires, does the proposal pass? Perhaps these would be clearer if they read, "at the time it expires". > 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within > two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the > Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group > headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. What about Judgements which are appealed and found true? Shouldn't these be added to the ruleset as well? > 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. What is the number of Therms initially? > 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. I don't understand what this rule is supposed to do. The removed Things of what type? Ian Kelly kellyia@e... From ragnarok@p... Tue Jun 04 18:52:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: raganok@i... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 01:52:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 81726 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 01:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 01:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 01:52:42 -0000 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.182] by intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEE91F7C01BC; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:52:41 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: File - ruleset Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:52:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of >the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it >expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of >votes cast AGAINST it. >> >> 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the >Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, by the time it expires, >the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN >votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. >If the number of votes cast FOR a proposal exceed the number >of AGAINST / ABSTAIN votes at any given time before it expires, >does the proposal pass? Perhaps these would be clearer if they >read, "at the time it expires". I agree. I will make this change. >> 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not >appealed within >> two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the >sentences of the >> Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset >in the group >> headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for >said group. >What about Judgements which are appealed and found true? >Shouldn't these be added to the ruleset as well? My thinking is that they are not seen as already true by everyone. I will go with whatever the group thinks, though, as I do not feel particularly dictatorial about my draft ruleset. >> 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms >exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve >a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. >What is the number of Therms initially? I had been assuming it would be zero. But this is definitely negotiable. >> 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the >removed Things of that type are destroyed. >I don't understand what this rule is supposed to do. The >removed Things of what type? Hmm, that is a bit unclear. Any ideas for rephrasing? Amazingly, this is legal. --Craig Daniel 'If it takes all the future, well live through the past If the phone doesn't ring, it's me.' -Jimmy Buffett pgp public key ID: 0x5C3A1E74 (old), 0x22C68020 (new) From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Wed Jun 12 15:12:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 91198 invoked by uid 7800); 12 Jun 2002 22:12:11 -0000 Date: 12 Jun 2002 22:12:10 -0000 Message-ID: <1023919931.313030349.47038.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Tue Jun 25 02:42:16 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7631 invoked by uid 7800); 25 Jun 2002 09:42:15 -0000 Date: 25 Jun 2002 09:42:15 -0000 Message-ID: <1024998135.181634422.77154.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Mon Jul 08 22:26:39 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 69382 invoked by uid 7800); 9 Jul 2002 05:26:39 -0000 Date: 9 Jul 2002 05:26:39 -0000 Message-ID: <1026192399.166298167.18562.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Tue Jul 23 05:41:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4761 invoked by uid 7800); 23 Jul 2002 12:41:40 -0000 Date: 23 Jul 2002 12:41:40 -0000 Message-ID: <1027428100.192399009.90537.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From bdonlan@u... Wed Jul 24 11:58:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 24 Jul 2002 18:58:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 86807 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jul 2002 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jul 2002 18:58:09 -0000 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:58:09 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: anyone here? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 46 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bdonlan88" X-Originating-IP: 24.198.73.122 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=101018666 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 Is anyone actually interested in this nomic? From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Tue Aug 06 19:17:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 85666 invoked by uid 7800); 7 Aug 2002 02:17:26 -0000 Date: 7 Aug 2002 02:17:26 -0000 Message-ID: <1028686646.241345521.3683.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Wed Aug 21 10:09:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 97720 invoked by uid 7800); 21 Aug 2002 17:09:18 -0000 Date: 21 Aug 2002 17:09:18 -0000 Message-ID: <1029949758.294857474.58098.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Wed Sep 04 14:54:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 66386 invoked by uid 7800); 4 Sep 2002 21:54:47 -0000 Date: 4 Sep 2002 21:54:47 -0000 Message-ID: <1031176487.311986412.60948.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Wed Sep 18 03:18:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27505 invoked by uid 7800); 18 Sep 2002 10:18:20 -0000 Date: 18 Sep 2002 10:18:20 -0000 Message-ID: <1032344300.270198758.92690.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 29 19:12:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 39771 invoked by uid 7800); 30 Sep 2002 02:12:17 -0000 Date: 30 Sep 2002 02:12:17 -0000 Message-ID: <1033351937.68236589.44214.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 13 13:32:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 92280 invoked by uid 7800); 13 Oct 2002 20:32:16 -0000 Date: 13 Oct 2002 20:32:16 -0000 Message-ID: <1034541136.47835981.5042.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 27 00:35:39 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 91449 invoked by uid 7800); 27 Oct 2002 07:35:38 -0000 Date: 27 Oct 2002 07:35:38 -0000 Message-ID: <1035704138.1237417.71727.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 10 00:45:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 55768 invoked by uid 7800); 10 Nov 2002 08:45:02 -0000 Date: 10 Nov 2002 08:45:02 -0000 Message-ID: <1036917902.1801868.29925.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 24 00:39:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 87626 invoked by uid 7800); 24 Nov 2002 08:39:22 -0000 Date: 24 Nov 2002 08:39:22 -0000 Message-ID: <1038127162.1461798.67516.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 08 00:42:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20486 invoked by uid 7800); 8 Dec 2002 08:42:57 -0000 Date: 8 Dec 2002 08:42:57 -0000 Message-ID: <1039336977.1676210.95352.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 22 02:49:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 57381 invoked by uid 7800); 22 Dec 2002 10:49:00 -0000 Date: 22 Dec 2002 10:49:00 -0000 Message-ID: <1040554140.9239764.39574.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 05 03:24:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21505 invoked by uid 7800); 5 Jan 2003 11:24:25 -0000 Date: 5 Jan 2003 11:24:25 -0000 Message-ID: <1041765865.11364831.65788.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 19 04:42:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 41977 invoked by uid 7800); 19 Jan 2003 12:42:10 -0000 Date: 19 Jan 2003 12:42:10 -0000 Message-ID: <1042980130.16029146.35954.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 02 04:58:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 64834 invoked by uid 7800); 2 Feb 2003 12:58:40 -0000 Date: 2 Feb 2003 12:58:39 -0000 Message-ID: <1044190720.17018853.37051.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From unlin_e@y... Fri Feb 07 14:20:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 7 Feb 2003 22:20:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 34762 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2003 22:20:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2003 22:20:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2003 22:20:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2003 22:20:39 -0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 22:20:38 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Can I play? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 181 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "unlin_e " X-Originating-IP: 134.193.136.181 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e I've never played a Nomic before, but have wanted to for a long time. I found this through the Nomic Wiki. Is membership still open? Is this an appropriate nomic for a newbie? thx From bdonlan@u... Fri Feb 07 14:32:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 7 Feb 2003 22:32:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 87450 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2003 22:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2003 22:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.175.161) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2003 22:32:40 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A13726F5DF; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:32:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Can I play? Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:32:25 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200302071732.25442.bdonlan@u...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=101018666 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 07 February 2003 05:20 pm, unlin_e wrote: > I've never played a Nomic before, but have wanted to for a long time. > I found this through the Nomic Wiki. > Is membership still open? Is this an appropriate nomic for a newbie? I've been on this mailing list for a while, haven't seen anything happen. I suggest you try http://www.nomic.net/~g6 if you want an active nomic. But, you never know, maybe Thermo has reached critical mass to start :) ...or maybe everyone will remember to unsubscribe :) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+RDM1x533NjVSos4RAuHJAJ43jS1SnJOrcqCHpHYkZFyTU2emVgCg0NTv 2Mi62jYD+jkxFlFKLma7xTc= =UYOX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Mon Feb 10 11:15:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 10 Feb 2003 19:15:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 36112 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2003 19:15:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2003 19:15:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2003 19:15:35 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.67] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA531042023A; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:15:31 -0500 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Can I play? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:15:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200302071732.25442.bdonlan@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.67] X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl We have not yet reached this critical mass, last I checked. Everyone is encouraged to make their desire to play (as opposed to just lurking for a while) known, as you two have done now. This is likely to be a rather odd nomic. If you want a taste of the game in general, I would suggest Agora. But I see no reason why Thermo should be inapropriate for newbies. -----Original Message----- From: bd [mailto:bdonlan@u...] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:32 PM To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Can I play? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 07 February 2003 05:20 pm, unlin_e wrote: > I've never played a Nomic before, but have wanted to for a long time. > I found this through the Nomic Wiki. > Is membership still open? Is this an appropriate nomic for a newbie? I've been on this mailing list for a while, haven't seen anything happen. I suggest you try http://www.nomic.net/~g6 if you want an active nomic. But, you never know, maybe Thermo has reached critical mass to start :) ...or maybe everyone will remember to unsubscribe :) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+RDM1x533NjVSos4RAuHJAJ43jS1SnJOrcqCHpHYkZFyTU2emVgCg0NTv 2Mi62jYD+jkxFlFKLma7xTc= =UYOX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Feb 16 06:05:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13135 invoked by uid 7800); 16 Feb 2003 14:05:54 -0000 Date: 16 Feb 2003 14:05:54 -0000 Message-ID: <1045404354.21053344.27804.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 02 09:01:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 98886 invoked by uid 7800); 2 Mar 2003 17:01:01 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 2003 17:01:01 -0000 Message-ID: <1046624461.31559908.93216.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 16 10:54:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 47105 invoked by uid 7800); 16 Mar 2003 18:54:05 -0000 Date: 16 Mar 2003 18:54:05 -0000 Message-ID: <1047840845.38344640.79596.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Mar 30 15:36:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 50454 invoked by uid 7800); 30 Mar 2003 23:36:17 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2003 23:36:17 -0000 Message-ID: <1049067377.55276678.34269.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t Please note that this is a draft, and is not necessarily the exact ruleset text we will use when we begin the game. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 Whenever a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, while the rest are distributed randomly among all players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From charley@t... Wed Apr 09 00:43:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 9 Apr 2003 07:43:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 66244 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2003 07:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Apr 2003 07:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2003 07:43:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Apr 2003 07:43:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:43:50 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Good to go Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 125 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey I am looking for a game to join, so I am interested in this one if it is to start soon, and if it becomes energetic Cassie From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 09 12:56:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 9 Apr 2003 19:56:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 47703 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2003 19:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Apr 2003 19:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2003 19:56:05 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAD78802A4; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:56:07 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Good to go Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:56:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl So far, we have yet to have five people all expressing interest at a time. However, we have nine members currently. Presumably five of them are ready to begin playing. We now have four current members who have expressed a readiness to play - me, you, bdonlan88, and unlin_e. The other five of you, if one of you expresses readiness we will begin. -----Original Message----- From: Cassie Harley [mailto:charley@t...] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 3:44 AM To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Thermo] Good to go I am looking for a game to join, so I am interested in this one if it is to start soon, and if it becomes energetic Cassie To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 09 14:23:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 9 Apr 2003 21:23:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 75258 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2003 21:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Apr 2003 21:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2003 21:23:44 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5C5CB14E0BD; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: [Thermo] Good to go Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:23:24 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304091723.25057.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 09 April 2003 03:56 pm, Craig wrote: > So far, we have yet to have five people all expressing interest at a time= . > However, we have nine members currently. Presumably five of them are read= y > to begin playing. We now have four current members who have expressed a > readiness to play - me, you, bdonlan88, and unlin_e. The other five of yo= u, > if one of you expresses readiness we will begin. FYI - I'm bdonlan88, so don't be confused and register another interested player just because I start posting :) - --=20 bd UNIX enhancements aren't. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lI9Nx533NjVSos4RAkfcAJ9tU6jSQ1s+DBl9x9HE3MPq+UxutACgkU2Y 1zs/42SbckUYf454gHoG+vI=3D =3DA3HL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Wed Apr 09 17:34:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 00:34:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 71886 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 00:34:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 00:34:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 00:34:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 5017 invoked by uid 1006); 10 Apr 2003 00:34:10 -0000 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:34:10 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Getting it on Message-ID: <20030409203410.A4990@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 Hi, I'm Josh, and I'm actively interested in playing too. I'm pretty green to nomic, but I figure I can contribute to the quirkiness factor. (I played on a Nomic 3 years ago or so; I had a great time, but then finals came around and so on and so forth. No damn college to get in the way now, though.) So, yeah. Howdy. -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Wed Apr 09 18:38:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 01:38:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 18544 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 01:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 01:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 01:38:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 4897 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 01:38:08 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 01:38:08 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3A1c8207156 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:38:08 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E94BD2D.D6AB38FB@u...> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:39:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Good to go References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > So far, we have yet to have five people all expressing interest at a time. > However, we have nine members currently. Presumably five of them are ready > to begin playing. We now have four current members who have expressed a > readiness to play - me, you, bdonlan88, and unlin_e. The other five of you, > if one of you expresses readiness we will begin. > Yup, count me as interested (Ducker756). Definitely ready. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 09 18:43:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 01:43:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 26749 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 01:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 01:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 01:43:23 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC403010256; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:43:28 -0400 To: Subject: Okay, we're beginning. Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:43:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl To begin with, the only things are the rules, players, and the Office of the Speaker. I will be speaker just to have one to get things going; if anyone else wants it I will give you the Office - after all, the rules don't stop you from giving away your things, so this is permitted (as, I feel, it should be). I say we begin with zero therms, just so that they are something that appears in the game as things are destroyed. Players currently are: Craig Daniel Cassie Harley Brian Dolan unlin_e Josh Millard BTW, if your real name is known to the list but you wish to be known by an alias, speak up. I expect everyone will respect that. Now, someone come up with a proposal quick enough that we don't start losing rules (or possibly players) in two weeks. Possible questions to address include: If you deregister, what happens to your things? Agora-style looting auction (which would require money)? Random redistribution? Should we add money? Should we add a way to win? What happens if the Second Sacred Law destroys an office, which the rules still declare to exist? Is a new, identical one created? If so, who has it? From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 09 18:43:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 01:43:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 10228 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 01:43:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 01:43:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 01:43:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC621120230; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:44:02 -0400 To: Subject: RE: Okay, we're beginning. Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:43:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Players currently are: >Craig Daniel >Cassie Harley >Brian Dolan >unlin_e >Josh Millard And Dr. Ducker. From charley@t... Thu Apr 10 01:50:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 08:50:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 61257 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 08:50:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 08:50:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 08:50:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2003 08:50:01 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:49:59 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: New to it all Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1084 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey As this is my first game of nomic, I am assuming chatting and discussing our opinions of the rules is allowed in this discussion group (I see no rule to the contrary). And so I will ask, as I do like to chat with colleagues to ensure clarity. what is a therm? I am assuming this is a 'matter cannot be created or destroyed' type notion, in which a thing destroyed releases a therm? Did I miss that? I like the question posed 'What happens if the Second Sacred Law destroys an office, which the rules still declare to exist? Is a new, identical one created? If so, who has it?' I think the money and ways to win can wait a bit, at least until we settle in. Some other offices will need to be created soon, but what of the question posed. What will happen if the 2SL destroys an office, which the rules deem to exits. I have an idea or two. Should I submit it as a proposal, or shall we discuss it first? I will branch out and submit it as a proposal, and if my understanding of the rules is not correct, then someone will let me know. Let the games begin Cass. From charley@t... Thu Apr 10 02:44:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 09:44:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 42476 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 09:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 09:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 09:44:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2003 09:44:02 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:44:01 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Proposal 1 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1449 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey My thoughts are the following: An officer should be nominated to track pending proposals, note his job would not be to tabulate votes, or make judgments, but act as a secretary to ensure all proposals are looked administered correctly, and deemed expired at the correct point of time. I propose the following: The follow rule be created: 10.5 An office exists known as the 'Proposal Officer' The follow rule be created: 10.6 The job of the 'Proposal Officer' shall be to ensure proposals are correctly processed. The follow rule be created: 10.7 If the position of 'Proposal Officer' is vacated, then it is the duty of the 'Speaker' to call an election. The follow rule be created: 5.9 The owner of the proposal may process the proposal eyself. The follow rule be created: 5.10 If the owner has incorrectly processed a proposal it will be deemed to have expired. The follow rule be created: 5.11 A proposal is processed when it has been submitted to the mailing list with a subject heading as follows 'Proposal X', where X is the next number following in chronological order from the number of the last proposal. The following rule be deleted: 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. The follow rule be created: 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been processed, and has not expired. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 06:52:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 13:52:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 33891 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 13:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 13:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 13:51:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2003 13:51:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:51:51 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: New to it all Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1102 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > As this is my first game of nomic, I am assuming chatting and > discussing our opinions of the rules is allowed in this discussion > group (I see no rule to the contrary). Absolutely. > And so I will ask, as I do like to chat with colleagues to ensure > clarity. > > what is a therm? > I am assuming this is a 'matter cannot be created or destroyed' type > notion, in which a thing destroyed releases a therm? > Did I miss that? So far, they simply provide some indication of how much has been destroyed. They can also give people points, but I imagine that will be rare. I'm hoping they expand to play a bigger role in the game. > I think the money and ways to win can wait a bit, at least until we > settle in. I agree, but I think that they are good things for us to start thinking about. > Should I submit it as a proposal, or shall we discuss it first? > I will branch out and submit it as a proposal, and if my > understanding of the rules is not correct, then someone will let me > know. Either way. After a proposal is submitted, I'm assuming we will discuss it. -Craig From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 10 12:43:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 19:43:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 56099 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 19:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 19:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 19:43:14 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E218C14E183; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:42:48 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" Subject: Re: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:42:46 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304101542.47551.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 09 April 2003 09:43 pm, Craig wrote: > To begin with, the only things are the rules, players, and the Office of > the Speaker. I will be speaker just to have one to get things going; if > anyone else wants it I will give you the Office - after all, the rules > don't stop you from giving away your things, so this is permitted (as, I > feel, it should be). I say we begin with zero therms, just so that they a= re > something that appears in the game as things are destroyed. > > Players currently are: > > Craig Daniel > Cassie Harley > Brian Dolan First, my real name is 'Bryan Donlan', but it'll be 'bd', now that I've=20 activated my identity thing. And I suggest everyone reread the rules - I=20 certainly don't remember them :) > unlin_e > Josh Millard > > BTW, if your real name is known to the list but you wish to be known by a= n > alias, speak up. I expect everyone will respect that. > Now, someone come up with a proposal quick enough that we don't start > losing rules (or possibly players) in two weeks. Possible questions to > address include: > If you deregister, what happens to your things? Agora-style looting aucti= on > (which would require money)? Random redistribution? The rules don't state that you can have things. Also, I am confused on one point: How do we change the rules? We can create= a=20 new one and destroy the old, but only in a registration prop. Someone needs= =20 to suggest a fix before the ruleset disintegrates. > Should we add money? > Should we add a way to win? Not yet. We need to fix things first... > What happens if the Second Sacred Law destroys an office, which the rules > still declare to exist? Is a new, identical one created? If so, who has i= t? I think it should instead sdestroy the player holding the office. That way = the=20 number of Things still decreases. - --=20 bd Sorry never means having your say to love. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lck3x533NjVSos4RAknQAJsFkoIWotNgs9prGoQZ4bHD9G79EACgvnZC Rux4KroiWIksRG3cMupkyhk=3D =3DxhxY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 13:31:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 20:31:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 54456 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 20:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 20:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 20:31:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4B86F902A2; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:31:52 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:31:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304101542.47551.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> To begin with, the only things are the rules, players, and the Office of >> the Speaker. I will be speaker just to have one to get things going; if >> anyone else wants it I will give you the Office - after all, the rules >> don't stop you from giving away your things, so this is permitted (as, I >> feel, it should be). I say we begin with zero therms, just so that they are >> something that appears in the game as things are destroyed. >> >> Players currently are: >> >> Craig Daniel >> Cassie Harley >> Brian Dolan >First, my real name is 'Bryan Donlan', but it'll be 'bd', now that I've >activated my identity thing. And I suggest everyone reread the rules - I >certainly don't remember them :) Sorry. >> If you deregister, what happens to your things? Agora-style looting auction >> (which would require money)? Random redistribution? >The rules don't state that you can have things. Rule 9.7: "Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player." >Also, I am confused on one point: How do we change the rules? We can create a >new one and destroy the old, but only in a registration prop. Someone needs >to suggest a fix before the ruleset disintegrates. If you destroy an old rule and create a replacement, then you have not directly increased the number of things in the game. >> Should we add money? >> Should we add a way to win? >Not yet. We need to fix things first... Definitely. Those two are longer term ideas. Now, any proposal to do said fixing? From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 10 13:35:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 20:35:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 19354 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0A3DD14E18D; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:35:08 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:35:07 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304101635.07952.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 04:31 pm, Craig wrote: > >> To begin with, the only things are the rules, players, and the Office = of > >> the Speaker. I will be speaker just to have one to get things going; i= f > >> anyone else wants it I will give you the Office - after all, the rules > >> don't stop you from giving away your things, so this is permitted (as,= I > >> feel, it should be). I say we begin with zero therms, just so that the= y > > are > > >> something that appears in the game as things are destroyed. > >> > >> Players currently are: > >> > >> Craig Daniel > >> Cassie Harley > >> Brian Dolan > > > >First, my real name is 'Bryan Donlan', but it'll be 'bd', now that I've > >activated my identity thing. And I suggest everyone reread the rules - I > >certainly don't remember them :) > > Sorry. np. > >> If you deregister, what happens to your things? Agora-style looting > > auction > > >> (which would require money)? Random redistribution? > > > >The rules don't state that you can have things. > > Rule 9.7: "Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by = a > player." OK: I propose: Destroy 7.3 Create: 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir= =20 points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. - --=20 bd Man who falls in vat of molten optical glass makes spectacle of self. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ldV7x533NjVSos4RAr4aAJ9R2wHbwKEQrLN3wzExLQNY7El+owCfeV0N AK5FzP2Ik1+sXkp4BZAJZoU=3D =3DH0qq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 13:44:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 20:44:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 36884 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 20:44:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 20:44:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 20:44:12 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A79F2150280; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:44:15 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:44:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things in a purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game." A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such time as this rule is repealed." The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use short rules in case of SSL damage. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 13:45:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 20:45:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 62417 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 20:45:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 20:45:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 20:45:05 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7D333902A0; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:45:07 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:45:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304101635.07952.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I propose: >Destroy 7.3 >Create: >7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir >points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. I hereby cast a vote FOR this proposal. From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 10 13:46:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 20:46:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 38132 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 20:46:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 20:46:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 20:46:19 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B306F14E190; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:45:55 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" Subject: Re: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:45:54 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304101645.54920.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 04:45 pm, Craig wrote: > >I propose: > >Destroy 7.3 > >Create: > >7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all e= ir > >points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. > > I hereby cast a vote FOR this proposal. Me too, unless it's automatic :) - --=20 bd Poverty must have its satisfactions, else there would not be so many poor people. -- Don Herold -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ldgCx533NjVSos4RAmurAJ9od62Sm3yvDINPMi46S/iVdqqAiQCg1tOl 8jnEFlDi/hgu/oDvg1uI3WE=3D =3Dx1Tb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From unlin_e@y... Thu Apr 10 13:56:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 20:56:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 11187 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 20:56:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 20:56:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.236) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 20:56:46 -0000 Message-ID: <20030410205646.81274.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:56:46 PDT Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > >I propose: > >Destroy 7.3 > >Create: > >7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir > >points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. > > I hereby cast a vote FOR this proposal. > I unlin_e, cast a vote FOR this proposal, too. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From unlin_e@y... Thu Apr 10 14:16:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 21:16:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 56543 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 21:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 21:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11404.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.234) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 21:16:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20030410211638.40121.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:16:38 PDT Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e These proposals seem rather ad hoc. I suggest instead that the game start with more than zero therms. I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rule is created." --- Craig wrote: > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things in a > purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number > of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted by > rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." I vote AGAINST this proposal. > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the > game." I vote AGAINST this proposal. > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such time > as this rule is repealed." > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." I vote AGAINST this proposal. > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use short > rules in case of SSL damage. > I vote FOR this proposal. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 10 14:21:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 21:21:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 87181 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 21:21:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 21:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 21:21:40 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AD58D14E193; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:21:14 -0400 (EDT) To: sonof Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:21:13 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030410211638.40121.qmail@w...> In-Reply-To: <20030410211638.40121.qmail@w...> Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304101721.13745.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:16 pm, sonof wrote: > These proposals seem rather ad hoc. > I suggest instead that the game start with more than zero therms. > > I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rule = is > created." How about two therms? Or one, plus another based on a random roll. We don't= =20 want to be able to maintain things forever without outside help, that's the= =20 whole point :) > --- Craig wrote: > > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. > > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger > > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things i= n > > a purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the > > number of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly > > permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > I vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in > > the game." > > I vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST > > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such > > time as this rule is repealed." > > > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without > > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." > > I vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use > > short rules in case of SSL damage. > > I vote FOR this proposal. It's all one part. And we don't want to delete without creating, it'll lead= to=20 thermodynamic doom. Or something. Remember, the ruleset is totally untested= ,=20 and we need to be able to fix things as we notice them. - --=20 bd I took a fish head to the movies and I didn't have to pay. - -- Fish Heads, Saturday Night Live, 1977. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+leBJx533NjVSos4RAq78AKDRA1S06a2MUljT78WZhgERXB6DegCeK69w KnyKef/Vm3T4grAJmDpqk6g=3D =3DDVCF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 10 14:24:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 21:24:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 30722 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 21:24:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 21:24:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 21:24:15 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D42CD14E194; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:23:51 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:23:51 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030410211638.40121.qmail@w...> <200304101721.13745.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200304101721.13745.bdonlan@b...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304101723.51073.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:21 pm, bd wrote: > On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:16 pm, sonof wrote: > > These proposals seem rather ad hoc. > > I suggest instead that the game start with more than zero therms. > > > > I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rul= e > > is created." Oh, and also, you can't do that, you need to destroy something as well. - --=20 bd O muito torna-se pouco com desejar um pouco mais. -- Francisco de Quevedo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+leDnx533NjVSos4RAmJQAKCSiqwAxuiqNL40hC/cLH7uUJlAcwCghcZj nlRk7lKR339eRDQoqS7qLr0=3D =3DAGEo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From unlin_e@y... Thu Apr 10 14:28:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 21:28:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 91018 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 21:28:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 21:28:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11405.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.235) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 21:28:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20030410212812.17591.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:28:12 PDT Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200304101721.13745.bdonlan@b...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:16 pm, sonof wrote: > > These proposals seem rather ad hoc. > > I suggest instead that the game start with more than zero therms. > > > > I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rule is > > created." > > How about two therms? Or one, plus another based on a random roll. We don't > want to be able to maintain things forever without outside help, that's the > whole point :) Ok, I change my proposal to CREATE Rule 5.9, "When a rule is created, choose randomly between destroying one therm and destroying two therms." > > --- Craig wrote: > > > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. > > > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger > > > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things in > > > a purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > > > > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > > > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the > > > number of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly > > > permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > > > I vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > > > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > > > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in > > > the game." > > > > I vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > > > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST > > > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such > > > time as this rule is repealed." > > > > > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without > > > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." > > > > I vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > > > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use > > > short rules in case of SSL damage. > > > > I vote FOR this proposal. > > It's all one part. And we don't want to delete without creating, it'll lead > to > thermodynamic doom. Or something. Remember, the ruleset is totally untested, > and we need to be able to fix things as we notice them. Well, alright then. I vote FOR this proposal. For real, this time. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 14:37:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 21:36:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 67349 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 21:36:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 21:36:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 21:36:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3FC33F0236; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:37:00 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:36:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030410212812.17591.qmail@w...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > These proposals seem rather ad hoc. yup. >> > I suggest instead that the game start with more than zero therms. >> > >> > I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rule is >> > created." >> >> How about two therms? Or one, plus another based on a random roll. We don't >> want to be able to maintain things forever without outside help, that's the >> whole point :) >Ok, I change my proposal to CREATE Rule 5.9, "When a rule is created, choose >randomly between destroying one therm and destroying two therms." Sounds good. Becomes pending when and if the FSL hiatus goes into effect. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 10 15:07:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 22:07:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 32734 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 22:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 22:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 22:07:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 26201 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 22:07:40 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 22:07:40 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3AM7ee09080 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:07:40 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E95DD71.B617D70A@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:09:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. References: <200304101635.07952.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > > I propose: > Destroy 7.3 > Create: > 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir > points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote FOR this proposal. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 10 15:38:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 22:38:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 75344 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 22:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 22:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 22:38:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 31399 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 22:38:11 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 22:38:11 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3AMcA207689 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:38:10 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E95E498.5C9343A2@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:39:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things in a > purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number > of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted by > rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the > game." > > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such time > as this rule is repealed." > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." > > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use short > rules in case of SSL damage. > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote AGAINST this proposal. As I see it there are three ways to increase the number of things in the game: 1) A new player's registration proposal can directly increase the number of things by two, plus the proposal itself, thus three total. 2) Any submitted proposal, regardless of pending, expired, or any other status, increases the number of things by one (the proposal itself). 3) Calls For Judgement increase the number of rules, and thus the number of things. From cortex@n... Thu Apr 10 15:52:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 22:52:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 22345 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 22:52:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 22:52:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 22:52:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 8833 invoked by uid 1006); 10 Apr 2003 22:52:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:52:07 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Okay, we're beginning. Message-ID: <20030410185207.C8730@a...> References: <200304101635.07952.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200304101635.07952.bdonlan@b...>; from bdonlan@b... on Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 03:35:07PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 03:35:07PM -0500, bd keyboarded: > > OK: > > I propose: > Destroy 7.3 > Create: > 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir > points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. I ain't agin' it, I'm FOR it. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Thu Apr 10 16:06:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 23:06:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 81956 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 23:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:06:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 23054 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:06:42 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:06:42 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3AN6gw30046 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:06:42 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E95EB47.D3F5CB6@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:08:07 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 The proposal, known as "Proposal 1", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:44am by Cassie Harley, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . From drduck@u... Thu Apr 10 16:06:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 23:06:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 49189 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:06:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 23:06:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:06:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 23069 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:06:52 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:06:52 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3AN6qs31374 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:06:52 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E95EB52.EC073147@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:08:18 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 The proposal, known as "Proposal 3", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:16pm by unlin_e, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . From drduck@u... Thu Apr 10 16:16:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 23:16:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 97945 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:16:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 24842 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3ANGre31820 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:16:53 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3E95EDAB.29356FF4@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:18:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: <20030410212812.17591.qmail@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 sonof wrote: > > Ok, I change my proposal to CREATE Rule 5.9, "When a rule is created, choose > randomly between destroying one therm and destroying two therms." > Is this meant to be a proposal? According to the rules your first proposal to create rule 5.9 is now a thing, and therefore CANNOT be _changed_ only destroyed. I will make a Proposal, to be titled "Proposal Dr. Ducker::1" Create a Rule: 5.9 When a rule is created, choose randomly between destroying one therm and destroying two therms. Destroy this Proposal. Net change in number of Things: 0 (+1 Rule, -1 Proposal) From drduck@u... Thu Apr 10 16:22:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 23:22:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 62675 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:22:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 23:22:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:22:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 25813 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:22:09 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:22:09 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3ANM8Y28293 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:22:08 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E95EEE6.5B17B8D0@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:23:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) References: <3E95EB47.D3F5CB6@u...> <200304101910.58040.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 10 April 2003 06:08 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > > The proposal, known as "Proposal 1", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of > > April 2003 at 10:44am by Cassie Harley, was submitted illegally under Rule > > 1.1 . > > The speaker must assign them randomly, and the judge's word is final, so > there. This is a "Call for Judgement", not a Judgement. I'm actually curious to see an actual Judgement play out more than anything else. > - -- > bd > The most dangerous organization in America today is: > (a) The KKK > (b) The American Nazi Party > (c) The Delta Frequent Flyer Club > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE+lfoBx533NjVSos4RAhyOAJ9LO66/9p0ieWxh/1M0+h9IxdLS2QCgouXV > 5AgIybjAaoajUqhiwsbsdVA= > =bsiL > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Thu Apr 10 16:34:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 23:34:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 89479 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:34:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 23:34:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:34:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 8979 invoked by uid 1006); 10 Apr 2003 23:34:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:34:30 -0400 To: Thermodynomic Subject: I quit! And I'd like to join, too! Message-ID: <20030410193430.A8836@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 As the current state of Thing-creating and proposing and whatnot is entertainingly messy, I may as well muck things up a bit more with what may or may not be a very good idea, which is to say: --- I, Josh Millard, hereby announce my wish to deregister. --- Hence, by rule 7.1, I am now no longer a player. Being a thing (9.1), and having just been destroyed (9.4), my deregistration has led to an increase by one of the number of Therms in the game (9.3). Which, I believe, puts the grand total at 1. While rule 7.3 would forbid it, I'd like to make a symbolic gesture by stating that, had I any Things or plural points, I would like to have been able to bequeath them to Craig for having gotten this thing going. Alas, they will be randomly scattered to you all -- or they would be, if I had any, of course. Also, I'm curious to see how exactly 7.3 will destroy a non-existent point. (Also also, I'm curious as to whether my vote on bd's unlabeled proposal re: 7.3 would be an issue, since I have now ceased to be a player; but then, my vote earlier caused it to expire, and so it was from that point enacted anyway, yes? Am I right? Am I coherent, even?) -> But! Lo! <- I must admit that I wish I was still in the game. Hence, re: rule 8.0, I would like to make a (Registration) proposal, which I will casually refer to as "Let There Be Josh": (a) Delete rule 9.1. (b) Create a new rule 9.1, which reads: "Rules, players, proposals, offices, points, and kudoses are Things." (c) Create one kudos, which belongs to Josh Millard. (Which would, of course, be the Thing besides myself for which rule 1.2 allows.) Now I can only pray for appreciation, or mercy, or at least a relatively brief filibuster. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 10 16:57:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 23:56:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 8318 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 23:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 23:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 23:56:52 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5183814E19F; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:56:26 -0400 (EDT) To: cortex Subject: Re: [Thermo] I quit! And I'd like to join, too! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:56:24 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030410193430.A8836@a...> In-Reply-To: <20030410193430.A8836@a...> Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304101956.25961.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 07:34 pm, cortex wrote: [snip] > I must admit that I wish I was still in the game. > > Hence, re: rule 8.0, I would like to make a (Registration) proposal, > which I will casually refer to as "Let There Be Josh": > > (a) Delete rule 9.1. > > (b) Create a new rule 9.1, which reads: > > "Rules, players, proposals, offices, points, and kudoses are > Things." > > (c) Create one kudos, which belongs to Josh Millard. (Which > would, of course, be the Thing besides myself for which rule 1.2 allows.) > > Now I can only pray for appreciation, or mercy, or at least a > relatively brief filibuster. I vote FOR this. - --=20 bd When in doubt, have a man come through the door with a gun in his hand. -- Raymond Chandler -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lgSpx533NjVSos4RAttJAKCIkQ9VemWEVdVyK48ewm3z/kIykACgj8Hr QH2Gkp1N0kUDXhIq6ERFIdY=3D =3DE5Jm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 19:27:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 02:27:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 64161 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 02:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 02:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 02:27:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A82B70D028C; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:27:55 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:27:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E95E498.5C9343A2@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >As I see it there are three ways to increase the number of things in the game: >1) A new player's registration proposal can directly increase the number of >things by two, plus the proposal itself, thus three total. >2) Any submitted proposal, regardless of pending, expired, or any other status, >increases the number of things by one (the proposal itself). >3) Calls For Judgement increase the number of rules, and thus the number of >things. This is a very good point. I am glad that you took the time to notice numbers 2 and 3, and vote accordingly. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 19:30:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 02:30:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 91363 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 02:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 02:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 02:30:06 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8B3710028C; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:30:11 -0400 To: "ThermoDyNomic" Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:30:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E95EB47.D3F5CB6@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal will be bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. -----Original Message----- From: drduck@p... [mailto:drduck@p...]On Behalf Of Doctor Ducker Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 6:08 PM To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) The proposal, known as "Proposal 1", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:44am by Cassie Harley, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 19:30:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 02:30:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 48151 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 02:30:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 02:30:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 02:30:55 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8E44AB02A0; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:31:00 -0400 To: "ThermoDyNomic" Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 3) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:30:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E95EB52.EC073147@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl This one is yours, Cassie. -----Original Message----- From: drduck@s... [mailto:drduck@s...]On Behalf Of Doctor Ducker Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 6:08 PM To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 3) The proposal, known as "Proposal 3", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:16pm by unlin_e, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 19:39:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 02:39:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 39332 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 02:39:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 02:39:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 02:39:16 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAD98D302A2; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:39:21 -0400 To: "Thermodynomic" Subject: RE: [Thermo] I quit! And I'd like to join, too! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:39:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030410193430.A8836@a...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >As the current state of Thing-creating and proposing and whatnot is >entertainingly messy, I may as well muck things up a bit more with >what may or may not be a very good idea, which is to say: >--- I, Josh Millard, hereby announce my wish to deregister. --- >Hence, by rule 7.1, I am now no longer a player. Being a thing (9.1), >and having just been destroyed (9.4), my deregistration has led to an >increase by one of the number of Therms in the game (9.3). Which, I >believe, puts the grand total at 1. >While rule 7.3 would forbid it, I'd like to make a symbolic gesture >by stating that, had I any Things or plural points, I would like to have >been able to bequeath them to Craig for having gotten this thing going. >Alas, they will be randomly scattered to you all -- or they would be, if >I had any, of course. I think you could have given them away right before deregistering. If you had any. >Also, I'm curious to see how exactly 7.3 will destroy a non-existent >point. Either there are now a negative number of points or there is nothing to destroy. I hereby submit the following CFJ: "Rule 7.3 did not destroy any points upon Josh's deregistration of April 10, 2003, as there was nothing to destroy." I ALSO submit a contradictory CFJ: "Rule 7.3 decreased the number of points in the game by 1 upon Josh's deregistration. A random player must therefore receive a negative number of points." As speaker, I randomly asign judges. The first one goes to unlin_e, the second to bd. >(Also also, I'm curious as to whether my vote on bd's unlabeled proposal >re: 7.3 would be an issue, since I have now ceased to be a player; but >then, my vote earlier caused it to expire, and so it was from that point >enacted anyway, yes? Am I right? Am I coherent, even?) My take on it is this. You cast a vote; that vote is thus there. Had the proposal still been pending, I think your vote would still count. However, everyone has voted for it. Thus, it passed before your destruction, so the question is moot. >Hence, re: rule 8.0, I would like to make a (Registration) proposal, >which I will casually refer to as "Let There Be Josh": >(a) Delete rule 9.1. >(b) Create a new rule 9.1, which reads: > "Rules, players, proposals, offices, points, and kudoses are > Things." >(c) Create one kudos, which belongs to Josh Millard. (Which >would, of course, be the Thing besides myself for which rule 1.2 allows.) >Now I can only pray for appreciation, or mercy, or at least a >relatively brief filibuster. I vote FOR this proposal. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 10 19:55:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 02:55:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 53036 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 02:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 02:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 02:55:26 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEA44A50294; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:55:32 -0400 To: "Thermodynomic" Subject: RE: [Thermo] I quit! And I'd like to join, too! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:55:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030410193430.A8836@a...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >increase by one of the number of Therms in the game (9.3). Which, I >believe, puts the grand total at 1. Two. The recently passed proposal created one also. There are 2 Therms. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 11 00:06:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 07:06:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 94598 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 07:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:06:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 7520 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:06:03 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:06:03 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3B763Q04494 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:06:03 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3E965BAA.DF250CD2@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:07:38 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: <3E95E498.5C9343A2@u...> <200304101842.50272.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 I believe Bd intended this to be sent to the list as a whole, not just to me. Bd, please confirm. bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:39 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Craig wrote: > > > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. > > > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger > > > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things in > > > a purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > > > > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > > > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the > > > number of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly > > > permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > > > > > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > > > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in > > > the game." > > > > > > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST > > > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such > > > time as this rule is repealed." > > > > > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without > > > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." > > > > > > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use > > > short rules in case of SSL damage. > > > > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > > As I see it there are three ways to increase the number of things in the > > game: > > > > 1) A new player's registration proposal can directly increase the number of > > things by two, plus the proposal itself, thus three total. > > > > 2) Any submitted proposal, regardless of pending, expired, or any other > > status, increases the number of things by one (the proposal itself). > > > > 3) Calls For Judgement increase the number of rules, and thus the number of > > things. > > Ooh, good point: > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > 14.1 This thing is a rule. > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > 14.2 This thing is a rule. > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > 14.3 This thing is a rule. > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > 14.4 This thing is a rule. > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > 14.5 This thing is a rule. > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > The title of section 14 is 'Extra rules'. The comment of section 14 is 'These > are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.' > > That should give us room to grow. Provided they're judged true, of course. > > - -- > bd > Remark of Dr. Baldwin's concerning upstarts: We don't care to eat toadstools > that think they are truffles. > -- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar" > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE+lfNqx533NjVSos4RAhiTAKCvfdTIP3JVhqUqBG4Yc+guu6VmUACgx7/M > i0XhN5P/d2wgKPQ3dWiV/Gg= > =keCK > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Fri Apr 11 00:16:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 07:15:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 25402 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 07:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:15:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 8884 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:15:41 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:15:41 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3B7FfG05709 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:15:41 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E965DED.3A01F8E9@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:17:17 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: <20030410211638.40121.qmail@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 sonof wrote: > > > I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rule is > created." > And sonof wrote: > > Ok, I change my proposal to CREATE Rule 5.9, "When a rule is created, choose > randomly between destroying one therm and destroying two therms." > In either case, I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote AGAINST both potential forms of this proposal. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 11 00:20:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 07:20:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 91576 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:20:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 07:20:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:20:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 26372 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:20:23 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:20:23 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3B7KMG06911 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:20:22 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E965F06.5A77D726@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:21:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: <20030410212812.17591.qmail@w...> <3E95EDAB.29356FF4@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > > I will make a Proposal, to be titled "Proposal Dr. Ducker::1" > > > Create a Rule: > 5.9 When a rule is created, choose randomly between destroying one therm and > destroying two therms. > > Destroy this Proposal. > > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote FOR this proposal. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 11 00:22:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 07:22:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 30856 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:22:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 07:22:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:22:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 9646 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:22:50 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:22:50 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3B7Mo126895 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:22:50 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E965F9A.6FFC16B4@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:24:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thermodynomic Subject: Re: [Thermo] I quit! And I'd like to join, too! References: <20030410193430.A8836@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > > I must admit that I wish I was still in the game. > > Hence, re: rule 8.0, I would like to make a (Registration) proposal, > which I will casually refer to as "Let There Be Josh": > > (a) Delete rule 9.1. > > (b) Create a new rule 9.1, which reads: > > "Rules, players, proposals, offices, points, and kudoses are > Things." > > (c) Create one kudos, which belongs to Josh Millard. (Which > would, of course, be the Thing besides myself for which rule 1.2 allows.) > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote FOR this proposal. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 11 00:42:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 07:42:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 21585 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:42:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 07:42:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:42:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 14468 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 07:42:26 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 07:42:26 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3B7gPx27192 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:42:26 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E96642F.C3A8D833@u...> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:43:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thermodynomic Subject: Re: [Thermo] I quit! And I'd like to join, too! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > >increase by one of the number of Therms in the game (9.3). Which, I > >believe, puts the grand total at 1. > > Two. The recently passed proposal created one also. There are 2 Therms. > I must disagree. As of Josh's missive, there is only one therm. I believe you are referring to the proposal submitted by Bd which destroys rule 7.3 (thus genereating a therm), and then creates a new version of rule 7.3. Unfortunately, that proposal, at the time I'm writing this has not yet expired, according to rules 5.4 or 5.7, since Cassie has not yet voted on it (rule 5.4), and a week has not passed since it's submission (rule 5.7), thus according to rule 6.2, which only applies to an expired proposal, it cannot yet have passed. While, under the current ruleset, it will pass regardless of Cassie's vote, e need not even cast eir vote on this proposal, thus requiring the week allotted by rule 5.7, to occur before the proposal expires, and then it will be passed. In either case (Cassie voting, or not), the proposal had not at the time of Josh's missive, yet passed. If I am mistaken with regard to which proposal has passed, then please inform me of which proposal it is which has passed. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 05:02:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 12:02:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 79423 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 12:02:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 12:02:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 12:02:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2003 12:02:16 -0000 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:02:16 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: I quit! And I'd like to join, too! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E96642F.C3A8D833@u...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1216 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > > > >increase by one of the number of Therms in the game (9.3). Which, I > > >believe, puts the grand total at 1. > > > > Two. The recently passed proposal created one also. There are 2 Therms. > > > > I must disagree. As of Josh's missive, there is only one therm. > > I believe you are referring to the proposal submitted by Bd which destroys rule > 7.3 (thus genereating a therm), and then creates a new version of rule 7.3. > > Unfortunately, that proposal, at the time I'm writing this has not yet expired, > according to rules 5.4 or 5.7, since Cassie has not yet voted on it (rule 5.4), > and a week has not passed since it's submission (rule 5.7), thus according to > rule 6.2, which only applies to an expired proposal, it cannot yet have passed. > > While, under the current ruleset, it will pass regardless of Cassie's vote, e > need not even cast eir vote on this proposal, thus requiring the week allotted > by rule 5.7, to occur before the proposal expires, and then it will be passed. Huh. I seem to recall a FOR vote from Cassie, but I guess I was hallucinating. There is one Therm. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 05:07:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 12:07:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 90082 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 12:07:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 12:07:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 12:07:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2003 12:07:21 -0000 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:07:17 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E965BAA.DF250CD2@u...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3252 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > I believe Bd intended this to be sent to the list as a whole, not just to me. > Bd, please confirm. > > bd wrote: > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:39 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > Craig wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number of rules. > > > > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have a larger > > > > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow such things in > > > > a purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > > > > > > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > > > > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the > > > > number of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly > > > > permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > > > > > > > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > > > > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in > > > > the game." > > > > > > > > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group headed FIRST > > > > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force until such > > > > time as this rule is repealed." > > > > > > > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to read, "Without > > > > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high rate." > > > > > > > > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to continue to use > > > > short rules in case of SSL damage. > > > > > > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > > > > As I see it there are three ways to increase the number of things in the > > > game: > > > > > > 1) A new player's registration proposal can directly increase the number of > > > things by two, plus the proposal itself, thus three total. > > > > > > 2) Any submitted proposal, regardless of pending, expired, or any other > > > status, increases the number of things by one (the proposal itself). > > > > > > 3) Calls For Judgement increase the number of rules, and thus the number of > > > things. > > > > Ooh, good point: > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > 14.1 This thing is a rule. > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > 14.2 This thing is a rule. > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > 14.3 This thing is a rule. > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > 14.4 This thing is a rule. > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > 14.5 This thing is a rule. > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > The title of section 14 is 'Extra rules'. The comment of section 14 is 'These > > are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.' > > > > That should give us room to grow. Provided they're judged true, of course. I'm not sure they should be, though. They aren't rules until 1) they are judged true, 2) they are not appealed, and 3) the judge decides to add them to the ruleset. However, it isn't my call - so, let's assign judges. Number one goes to Cassie. Number 2 goes to unlin_e. Number 3 goes to Dr Ducker. Number four goes to Cassie. Number five goes to me, and I judge it FALSE. From unlin_e@y... Fri Apr 11 06:57:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 13:57:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 83484 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 13:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 13:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.236) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 13:57:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20030411135712.32786.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.128.221] by web11406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:57:12 PDT Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- kreig_daniyl wrote: > > I believe Bd intended this to be sent to the list as a whole, not > just to me. > > Bd, please confirm. > > > > bd wrote: > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > On Thursday 10 April 2003 05:39 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > > Craig wrote: > > > > > Unfortunately, the rules do not let you increase the number > of rules. > > > > > HOWEVER, it occurs to me that that won't work until we have > a larger > > > > > ruleset. Thus, I suggest the following, as a way to allow > such things in > > > > > a purely temporary way. This will, of course, be proposal 2: > > > > > > > > > > Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 > reading "No > > > > > proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly > increase the > > > > > number of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is > explicitly > > > > > permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > > > > > > > > > Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 > reading "A > > > > > Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of > Things in > > > > > the game." > > > > > > > > > > A rule 1.0 is to be added, reading "The rules in the group > headed FIRST > > > > > SACRED LAW are in temporary hiatus and will not be in force > until such > > > > > time as this rule is repealed." > > > > > > > > > > The comment on the FIRST SACRED LAW will be amended to > read, "Without > > > > > outside influence, the game cannot expand at a very high > rate." > > > > > > > > > > Rule 4.0 will be deleted, but players are advised to > continue to use > > > > > short rules in case of SSL damage. > > > > > > > > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote AGAINST this proposal. > > > > > > > > As I see it there are three ways to increase the number of > things in the > > > > game: > > > > > > > > 1) A new player's registration proposal can directly increase > the number of > > > > things by two, plus the proposal itself, thus three total. > > > > > > > > 2) Any submitted proposal, regardless of pending, expired, or > any other > > > > status, increases the number of things by one (the proposal > itself). > > > > > > > > 3) Calls For Judgement increase the number of rules, and thus > the number of > > > > things. > > > > > > Ooh, good point: > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.1 This thing is a rule. > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.2 This thing is a rule. > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.3 This thing is a rule. > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.4 This thing is a rule. > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.5 This thing is a rule. > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > The title of section 14 is 'Extra rules'. The comment of section > 14 is 'These > > > are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.' > > > > > > That should give us room to grow. Provided they're judged true, > of course. > > I'm not sure they should be, though. They aren't rules until 1) they > are judged true, 2) they are not appealed, and 3) the judge decides > to add them to the ruleset. However, it isn't my call - so, let's > assign judges. Number one goes to Cassie. Number 2 goes to unlin_e. > Number 3 goes to Dr Ducker. Number four goes to Cassie. Number five > goes to me, and I judge it FALSE. > Number 2 goes to me, unlin_e, and I judge it TRUE. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From drduck@u... Fri Apr 11 09:31:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 16:31:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 33001 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 16:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 16:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 16:31:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1660 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 16:31:39 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 16:31:39 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3BGVVG11943 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:31:31 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E96E03D.E058B85D@u...> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:33:17 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 > > bd wrote: > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.3 This thing is a rule. > > > I, Doctor Ducker, Judge this to to be FALSE. I do so due to the fact that this CFJ contains a number which is not necessarily the rule number under which it would be added according to rules 13.0 and 13.1 . kreig_daniyl wrote: > > and 3) the judge decides to add them to the ruleset. > My reading of rules 13.0 and 13.1 makes it pretty clear that any CFJ which is judged true under Section JUDGEMENT, and is then unappealed, or which is appealed and subsequently found to be true by the Appellate Justices under Section APPEALS, then after two weeks the statements of the CFJ will automatically be added to the ruleset according to rules 13.0 and 13.1 . Craig, I believe you forgot to assign a judge to this CFJ (it would be number six): >> > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > The title of section 14 is 'Extra rules'. > > > The comment of section 14 is > > > 'These are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.' > > > From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 12:24:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:23:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 26024 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:23:59 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 70E0C14E0D2; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:23:23 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , "ThermoDyNomic" Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:23:21 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111523.22090.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 10:30 pm, Craig wrote: > Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal will b= e > bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. FALSE. Also, why not use the internet dice server? dice@p... will echo i= t=20 both to the requestor and to the list, thus preventing fraud. - --=20 bd There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Wm. Shakespeare, "Hamlet" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lxYpx533NjVSos4RAionAJ4t/fQH9Yz60xqwYkqukNzSJ05AUACdHLAZ Hhkqmkw7CYivMktOeuAXlAU=3D =3DDab4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 12:26:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:26:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 40208 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:26:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:26:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:26:01 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3DFE214E0D2; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:25:24 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" Subject: Re: [Thermo] I quit! And I'd like to join, too! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:25:24 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111525.24105.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 10 April 2003 10:39 pm, Craig wrote: > >Also, I'm curious to see how exactly 7.3 will destroy a non-existent > >point. > > Either there are now a negative number of points or there is nothing to > destroy. I hereby submit the following CFJ: "Rule 7.3 did not destroy any > points upon Josh's deregistration of April 10, 2003, as there was nothing > to destroy." I ALSO submit a contradictory CFJ: "Rule 7.3 decreased the > number of points in the game by 1 upon Josh's deregistration. A random > player must therefore receive a negative number of points." As speaker, I > randomly asign judges. The first one goes to unlin_e, the second to bd. TRUE. It decreased his points by one, making his points negative. This was= =20 then distributed randomly. Also, how about some summation emails, listing all game-relevant events tha= t=20 have happened? Like B Nomic's Recognizers. - --=20 bd Tu bi or not tu bi=20 LAY -- Norma a ser cumprida: Roubar =E9 contra LAY=20 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lxakx533NjVSos4RAg0SAKDTFF2vN1SFvlLbLGpOA8wQ0MF/LACeOsGx IBcBkSdIYO1RQc/lC2DubdE=3D =3DEJwQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 12:27:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:27:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 5771 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:27:02 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 221BB14E0D2; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:26:27 -0400 (EDT) To: Doctor Ducker , ThermoDyNomic Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:26:26 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200304101842.50272.bdonlan@b...> <3E965BAA.DF250CD2@u...> In-Reply-To: <3E965BAA.DF250CD2@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111526.26736.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 02:07 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > I believe Bd intended this to be sent to the list as a whole, not just to > me. Bd, please confirm. Er, yes. I did. Oops. - --=20 bd All diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means. -- Chou En Lai -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lxbix533NjVSos4RAsPLAKCZveSQt57evi5fzD5Bl7DipPfq6ACeO3r9 4XsXx8Nn/L/zYRME6kO45WQ=3D =3Ddhrg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 12:27:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:27:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 81921 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:27:42 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D667514E0D2; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:27:07 -0400 (EDT) To: Doctor Ducker , thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:27:06 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030410211638.40121.qmail@w...> <3E965DED.3A01F8E9@u...> In-Reply-To: <3E965DED.3A01F8E9@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111527.06725.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 02:17 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > sonof wrote: > > I propose Proposal 3, CREATE Rule 5.9, "A therm is destroyed when a rul= e > > is created." > > And sonof wrote: > > Ok, I change my proposal to CREATE Rule 5.9, "When a rule is created, > > choose randomly between destroying one therm and destroying two therms.= " > > In either case, I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote AGAINST both potential for= ms > of this proposal. Me, too. I'd like to do some stuff with the proposed Kudoses, this being on= e. - --=20 bd "Love your country but never trust its government." - -- from a hand-painted road sign in central Pennsylvania -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lxcKx533NjVSos4RAqWLAJ4k0In9Q3eTnTDsM2fBXB3WjkYAxACfYfPt NNLUC4MzR7S7iLmX9xxa1XI=3D =3DkkOw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 12:28:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:28:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 32822 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:28:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:28:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:28:11 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5EAD314E0D5; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:27:36 -0400 (EDT) To: Doctor Ducker , thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:27:36 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030410212812.17591.qmail@w...> <3E95EDAB.29356FF4@u...> <3E965F06.5A77D726@u...> In-Reply-To: <3E965F06.5A77D726@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111527.36204.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 02:21 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > I will make a Proposal, to be titled "Proposal Dr. Ducker::1" > > > > > > Create a Rule: > > 5.9 When a rule is created, choose randomly between destroying one ther= m > > and destroying two therms. > > > > Destroy this Proposal. > > > > I, Doctor Ducker, cast my vote FOR this proposal. And I AGAINST. Kudoses are more elegant IMO. - --=20 bd "If you own a machine, you are in turn owned by it, and spend your time serving it..." - -- Marion Zimmer Bradley, _The Forbidden Tower_ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lxcox533NjVSos4RArYxAKCkhpvXrOzaWnNBC4lIgnUEEBFlGQCgwEWN BnCH6cZcy1hHkXL+hHC+ymo=3D =3DdzZT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 12:43:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:43:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 79937 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:43:10 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAD0234D006E; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:43:12 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:43:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E96E03D.E058B85D@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > > >> > > I create the following Call for Judgement: >> > > 14.3 This thing is a rule. >> > > >I, Doctor Ducker, Judge this to to be FALSE. I do so due to the fact that this >CFJ contains a number which is not necessarily the rule number under which it >would be added according to rules 13.0 and 13.1 . Also remember that it is not yet a rule. >> >> and 3) the judge decides to add them to the ruleset. >> >My reading of rules 13.0 and 13.1 makes it pretty clear that any CFJ which is >judged true under Section JUDGEMENT, and is then unappealed, or which is >appealed and subsequently found to be true by the Appellate Justices under >Section APPEALS, then after two weeks the statements of the CFJ will >automatically be added to the ruleset according to rules 13.0 and 13.1 . I was remembering an earlier version of the rules that worked exactly as stated above. It DOES, however, need to wait either 1 week or 1 appeal to become a rule, so it isn't true (yet?) >Craig, I believe you forgot to assign a judge to this CFJ (it would be number >six): >>> > >> > > I create the following Call for Judgement: >> > > The title of section 14 is 'Extra rules'. >> > > The comment of section 14 is >> > > 'These are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.' My bad. As I assign a judge, let me just put in my two cents. There is not (yet?) a section 14 in the rules, so this cannot possibly be a statement of fact. However, it isn't my call, it's Dr Ducker's, since HotBits gives it to em. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 12:49:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:49:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 52938 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:49:17 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC3F3C60292; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:49:19 -0400 To: "ThermoDyNomic" Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:49:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111523.22090.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal will be >> bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. >FALSE. Also, why not use the internet dice server? dice@p... will echo it >both to the requestor and to the list, thus preventing fraud. The intent was to use random (as opposed to pseudorandom) numbers. However, fraud would be fairly easy. I propose the following: Rule 0.3 is destroyed and replaced with "0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for." From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 12:51:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:51:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 68735 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:51:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:51:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:51:05 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACAB2900232; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:51:07 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:51:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111527.06725.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Me, too. I'd like to do some stuff with the proposed Kudoses, this being one. I would like to point out that neither of these is a Pending Proposal suitable for voting on, as they do not obey the First Sacred Law. From unlin_e@y... Fri Apr 11 12:55:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:55:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 97476 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:55:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:55:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:55:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20030411195511.15342.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:55:11 PDT Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > >> Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal will > be > >> bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. > > >FALSE. Also, why not use the internet dice server? dice@p... will echo > it > >both to the requestor and to the list, thus preventing fraud. > > The intent was to use random (as opposed to pseudorandom) numbers. However, > fraud would be fairly easy. I propose the following: > Rule 0.3 is destroyed and replaced with "0.3 To ensure that random > selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything > random is called for." > > I, unlin_e, cast a vote FOR this proposal. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 12:56:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 19:56:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 29624 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 19:56:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 19:56:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 19:56:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADE529F0232; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:56:21 -0400 To: Subject: Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:56:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Rule 10.3 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 10.3 reading as follows: 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. Rule 10.5 is created in the group OFFICES, reading: There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. Rule 11.2 is repealed and replaced with the a new rule 11.2 reading: When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. This proposal is destroyed. A random player is named Stenographer. I vote FOR this proposal. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 13:01:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:01:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 31928 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:01:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:01:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:01:38 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF2413F0254; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:01:40 -0400 To: Subject: PROTO: kudos uses Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:01:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl This is NOT a proposal, I am suggesting it for comments for after we Let There Be Josh. I suggest that we add rules indicating that whenever a proposal is passed, a kudos is created in the posession of its proposer. I further suggest that whenever a CFJ is judged and not overturned on appeal within two weeks, a kudos is created in the posession of its Judge and of the Speaker (or the Stenographer if that passes), who are both assigned extra work as a result of the CFJ. Whenever a CFJ is appealed, a kudos is created in the posession of each Appelate Justice and of the Speaker (or the Stenographer if that passes). Suddenly, there will be enough kudoses floating around that we can develop an economy of kudoses; they would not be cannon fodder for proposals because nobody would want to give up theirs for someone else's proposals. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 13:17:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:17:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 60784 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:17:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:17:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:17:30 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 20C7F14E0DD; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:16:54 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:16:53 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111616.54052.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 03:51 pm, Craig wrote: > >Me, too. I'd like to do some stuff with the proposed Kudoses, this being > > one. > > I would like to point out that neither of these is a Pending Proposal > suitable for voting on, as they do not obey the First Sacred Law. Yes, it does. It destroys a rule, creates a rule, a Kudos, and a player. An= d=20 the Laws can be amended. - --=20 bd N=E3o brinque com fogo! Ele =E9 chato, n=E3o sabe brincar. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lyK1x533NjVSos4RAtCOAKCN1VIu2s+tK1kyZ/2l+HuGwR4fhACeIl9q O0pNqHNJ6JI6fEHu5r9HNck=3D =3D3TWb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 13:19:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:19:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 36391 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:19:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:19:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:19:16 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 27E7914E0DE; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:18:40 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] PROTO: kudos uses Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:18:39 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111618.40054.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 04:01 pm, Craig wrote: > This is NOT a proposal, I am suggesting it for comments for after we Let > There Be Josh. > > I suggest that we add rules indicating that whenever a proposal is passed= , > a kudos is created in the posession of its proposer. I further suggest th= at > whenever a CFJ is judged and not overturned on appeal within two weeks, a > kudos is created in the posession of its Judge and of the Speaker (or the > Stenographer if that passes), who are both assigned extra work as a resul= t > of the CFJ. Whenever a CFJ is appealed, a kudos is created in the posessi= on > of each Appelate Justice and of the Speaker (or the Stenographer if that > passes). Suddenly, there will be enough kudoses floating around that we c= an > develop an economy of kudoses; they would not be cannon fodder for > proposals because nobody would want to give up theirs for someone else's > proposals. What happened to the laws of thermodynamics? :P I think it should transform= n=20 points and nd2 / n Therms into one Kudos, which can be destroyed only in a= =20 proposal by the owner of said prop. - --=20 bd Victory uber allies! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lyMgx533NjVSos4RAn8WAJwP8tJsVJrP8O6GHYC9uJWeaA8BMwCg2WF8 Wl48msG35r5WggclKCxfdDw=3D =3Dcu98 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 13:24:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:24:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 28311 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:24:21 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A478A650282; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:24:24 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:24:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030411195511.15342.qmail@w...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal will >> be >> >> bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. >> >> >FALSE. Also, why not use the internet dice server? dice@p... will echo >> it >> >both to the requestor and to the list, thus preventing fraud. >> >> The intent was to use random (as opposed to pseudorandom) numbers. However, >> fraud would be fairly easy. I propose the following: >> Rule 0.3 is destroyed and replaced with "0.3 To ensure that random >> selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything >> random is called for." >> > >I, unlin_e, cast a vote FOR this proposal. So do I. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 13:34:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:34:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 24863 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:34:44 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E857B14E0E0; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:34:08 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:34:07 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111634.07606.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 04:24 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >> Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal > > will > > >> be > >> > >> >> bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. > >> > > >> >FALSE. Also, why not use the internet dice server? dice@p... will > > echo > > >> it > >> > >> >both to the requestor and to the list, thus preventing fraud. > >> > >> The intent was to use random (as opposed to pseudorandom) numbers. > > However, > > >> fraud would be fairly easy. I propose the following: > >> Rule 0.3 is destroyed and replaced with "0.3 To ensure that random > >> selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever > > anything > > >> random is called for." > > > >I, unlin_e, cast a vote FOR this proposal. > > So do I. And I. - --=20 bd We can defeat gravity. The problem is the paperwork involved. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lya/x533NjVSos4RAp3PAJ42Uv72nfVEtlWq6lH7g0hA9AHVwQCfSGu/ OB6haNq1goTKaE+mRih5KvI=3D =3DS8M8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 13:42:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:42:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 7519 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:42:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8CC339017A; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:42:52 -0400 To: Subject: Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:42:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl The rules don't require me to do this, but I have chosen to submit a report about Things. I will also mention that there is exactly one Therm. There are the rules. Seventy-one of them, for now. There are the five players, Craig, Cassie, bd, unlin_e, and Dr Ducker. There is also an Office of the Speaker, owned by Craig. There are negative one points, posessed by (checks HotBits) bd. There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: 1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. 2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. 3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. 4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e 5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e 6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker 7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! 8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig 9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig V=not pending because it violates the TSLs P=pending E=expired R=registration proposal From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 13:45:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:45:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 82544 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:45:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9762405006E; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:45:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:45:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111616.54052.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >Me, too. I'd like to do some stuff with the proposed Kudoses, this being >> >> one. >> >> I would like to point out that neither of these is a Pending Proposal >> suitable for voting on, as they do not obey the First Sacred Law. >Yes, it does. It destroys a rule, creates a rule, a Kudos, and a player. And >the Laws can be amended. Both of the proposals in question just destroy a rule. You seem to have mistaken my comment for one about Let There Be Josh, which is indeed Pending. Amending the laws, though possible, is tricky. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 13:46:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:46:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 38721 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:46:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:46:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:46:21 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 377FE14E0E3; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:45:45 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:45:44 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111645.44665.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 04:42 pm, Craig wrote: > The rules don't require me to do this, but I have chosen to submit a repo= rt > about Things. I will also mention that there is exactly one Therm. > > There are the rules. Seventy-one of them, for now. > > There are the five players, Craig, Cassie, bd, unlin_e, and Dr Ducker. > > There is also an Office of the Speaker, owned by Craig. > > There are negative one points, posessed by (checks HotBits) bd. > > There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: > > 1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. > 2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. > 3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. > 4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e > 5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e > 6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker > 7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! > 8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig > 9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig > > V=3Dnot pending because it violates the TSLs > P=3Dpending > E=3Dexpired > R=3Dregistration proposal Which ones have been voted on, and how many players have voted on each?=20 Because when all players have voted, the prop expires, and I'd like to get= =20 props through as fast as possible. - --=20 bd Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what value there may be in owning a piece thereof. -- National Lampoon, "Deteriorata" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lyl4x533NjVSos4RAprDAKDMgmYQk4hip1Le4vapMHZx3+LgTgCcCxCI ONalgPXY+LQMdKQBA/QXXGs=3D =3DEc+4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 13:47:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:47:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 19850 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:47:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:47:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:47:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9D8352017A; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:47:20 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] PROTO: kudos uses Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:47:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111618.40054.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> This is NOT a proposal, I am suggesting it for comments for after we Let >> There Be Josh. >> >> I suggest that we add rules indicating that whenever a proposal is passed, >> a kudos is created in the posession of its proposer. I further suggest that >> whenever a CFJ is judged and not overturned on appeal within two weeks, a >> kudos is created in the posession of its Judge and of the Speaker (or the >> Stenographer if that passes), who are both assigned extra work as a result >> of the CFJ. Whenever a CFJ is appealed, a kudos is created in the posession >> of each Appelate Justice and of the Speaker (or the Stenographer if that >> passes). Suddenly, there will be enough kudoses floating around that we can >> develop an economy of kudoses; they would not be cannon fodder for >> proposals because nobody would want to give up theirs for someone else's >> proposals. >What happened to the laws of thermodynamics? :P I think it should transform n >points and nd2 / n Therms into one Kudos, which can be destroyed only in a >proposal by the owner of said prop. Yeah, kudos appearances really ought to cost the game its Therms. I'll keep that in mind for later. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 13:59:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 20:59:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 63178 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 20:59:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 20:59:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 20:59:30 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACB4382017A; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:59:32 -0400 To: Subject: RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:59:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: > >1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. >2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. >3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. >4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e >5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e >6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker >7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! >8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig >9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: All non-pending proposals are destroyed. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 14:01:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 21:01:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 66429 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 21:01:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 21:01:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 21:01:41 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A6B1614E0E8; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:01:01 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:01:00 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111701.00741.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 04:59 pm, Craig wrote: > >There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: > > > >1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. > >2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. > >3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. > >4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e > >5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e > >6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker > >7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! > >8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig > >9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig > > I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. FOR - --=20 bd I don't want a pickle, I just wanna ride on my motorsickle. And I don't want to die, I just want to ride on my motorcy. Cle. -- Arlo Guthrie -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ly0Mx533NjVSos4RAsMDAJ9UsDiZkTp/uhofP2AnufeVeJLCqACfV6TD VSugG+Xb2VSnr2PnQGlblI0=3D =3DoqMl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 14:22:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 21:22:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 64229 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 21:22:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 21:22:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 21:22:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A231247B006E; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:22:57 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:22:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111645.44665.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> 1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. >> 2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. >> 3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. >> 4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e >> 5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e >> 6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker >> 7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! >> 8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig >> 9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig >> >> V=not pending because it violates the TSLs >> P=pending >> E=expired >> R=registration proposal >Which ones have been voted on, and how many players have voted on each? >Because when all players have voted, the prop expires, and I'd like to get >props through as fast as possible. Players: Craig, Cassie, bd, unlin_e, Dr Ducker 2 FOR: Craig, bd, unlin_e, Josh, Dr Ducker AGAINST: ABSTAIN: NO VOTE YET: Cassie Notes: Can't fail. 3 FOR: unlin_e AGAINST: Dr Ducker ABSTAIN: NO VOTE YET: Craig, Cassie, bd Notes: Can't pass. Don't bother voting. 6 FOR: Dr Ducker AGAINST: ABSTAIN: Craig NO VOTE YET: Cassie, bd, unlin_e Notes: I hereby ABSTAIN. 7 FOR: Craig, bd, Dr Ducker AGAINST: ABSTAIN: NO VOTE YET: Cassie, unlin_e Notes: Can't fail. 8 FOR: Craig, bd, unlin_e AGAINST: ABSTAIN: NO VOTE YET: Cassie, Dr Ducker Notes: Can't fail. 9 FOR: Craig AGAINST: ABSTAIN: NO VOTE YET: Cassie Notes: From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 14:42:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 21:42:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 17186 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 21:42:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 21:42:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 21:42:33 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6CB66302A4; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:42:35 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:42:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >9 FOR: Craig > AGAINST: > ABSTAIN: > NO VOTE YET: Cassie >Notes: Hit send too soon. Obviously, Cassie isn't the only one - there's also bd, unlin_e, and Dr Ducker. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 14:54:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 21:54:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 98216 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 21:54:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 21:54:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 21:54:40 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 82B6E14E0ED; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:54:04 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:54:03 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111754.03169.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 05:42 pm, Craig wrote: > >9 FOR: Craig > > AGAINST: > > ABSTAIN: > > NO VOTE YET: Cassie > >Notes: > > Hit send too soon. Obviously, Cassie isn't the only one - there's also bd= , > unlin_e, and Dr Ducker. I'm not entirely sure what any of these are - how about a thing on a websit= e=20 somewhere? - --=20 bd No sir! Away! A papaya war is on. -- pal=EDndromo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lzl7x533NjVSos4RAl0HAJ9Yaj+ni8UzBsM6uL/CLpb+XtgKfgCeI+rJ 4mkHs5QH9AfdL60UqvBq0X8=3D =3DMYx0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 15:03:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 22:03:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 12613 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 22:03:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 22:03:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 22:03:22 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABAD250A006E; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:03:25 -0400 To: "bd" , Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:03:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111754.03169.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I'm not entirely sure what any of these are - how about a thing on a website >somewhere? The numbers refer to the numbers I gave the proposals in my report on Things. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 11 15:10:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 22:10:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 49738 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 22:09:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 22:09:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 22:09:23 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 70C3914E0EF; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:08:47 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:08:46 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304111808.46345.bdonlan@b...> From: Bryan Donlan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 11 April 2003 06:03 pm, Craig wrote: > >I'm not entirely sure what any of these are - how about a thing on a > > website > > >somewhere? > > The numbers refer to the numbers I gave the proposals in my report on > Things. It dosen't tell me what the body is, though. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+lzzux533NjVSos4RAr4cAJ4hDdAvwTAEIvywOWHRP0p63wIDUACggSqd y6uyeIhXbSn2XwMA3n5dnOU= =vaWp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From unlin_e@y... Fri Apr 11 15:25:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 22:25:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 7634 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 22:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 22:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11405.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.235) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 22:25:46 -0000 Message-ID: <20030411222544.76060.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:25:44 PDT Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things. To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > >There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: > > > >1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. > >2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. > >3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. > >4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e > >5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e > >6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker > >7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! > >8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig > >9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig > > I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. unlin_e votes FOR this proposal. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 16:53:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 23:53:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 89556 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 23:53:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 23:53:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 23:53:39 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A58849E017A; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:53:44 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:53:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304111808.46345.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >I'm not entirely sure what any of these are - how about a thing on a >> >> website >> >> >somewhere? >> >> The numbers refer to the numbers I gave the proposals in my report on >> Things. >It dosen't tell me what the body is, though. Having a website or something with that info would be good. I don't feel I have the time to implement it. For future reports, I will include a brief synopsis of the proposals. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 11 16:54:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 23:54:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 3702 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 23:54:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 23:54:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 23:54:25 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5B55910268; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:54:29 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:54:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030411222544.76060.qmail@w...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: >> All non-pending proposals are destroyed. >unlin_e votes FOR this proposal. Me too, of course. From drduck@u... Sat Apr 12 02:22:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 12 Apr 2003 09:22:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 40108 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2003 09:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Apr 2003 09:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 2003 09:22:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 23437 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2003 09:22:53 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2003 09:22:53 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3C9Mrh06916 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 2003 02:22:53 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E97CD5B.D84227D4@u...> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 01:24:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > > > Rule 10.3 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 10.3 reading as follows: > 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any > random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. > > Rule 10.5 is created in the group OFFICES, reading: > There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, > is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and > Appelate Justices. > > Rule 11.2 is repealed and replaced with the a new rule 11.2 reading: > When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose > a player, who shall be known as the Judge. > > This proposal is destroyed. > > A random player is named Stenographer. > > > It appears to me that this is in violation of rule 1.1 . -2 Rules (10.3, 11.2) -1 Proposal (this one) +3 Rules (10.3, 11.2, 10.5) +1 Office -------------- +1 Net increase of things. I suggest resubmitting and destroy another proposal ("Proposal 2" is probably a good bet since it can't pass anyway) From ragnarok@p... Sat Apr 12 06:00:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 12 Apr 2003 13:00:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 38137 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2003 13:00:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Apr 2003 13:00:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 2003 13:00:12 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADDC510028E; Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:00:12 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:00:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E97CD5B.D84227D4@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >> Rule 10.3 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 10.3 reading as follows: >> 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any >> random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. >> >> Rule 10.5 is created in the group OFFICES, reading: >> There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, >> is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and >> Appelate Justices. >> >> Rule 11.2 is repealed and replaced with the a new rule 11.2 reading: >> When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose >> a player, who shall be known as the Judge. >> >> This proposal is destroyed. >> >> A random player is named Stenographer. >> >> >> >It appears to me that this is in violation of rule 1.1 . >-2 Rules (10.3, 11.2) >-1 Proposal (this one) >+3 Rules (10.3, 11.2, 10.5) >+1 Office >-------------- >+1 Net increase of things. >I suggest resubmitting and destroy another proposal ("Proposal 2" is probably a >good bet since it can't pass anyway) My intent had been that the proposal destroys two rules and one proposal, and then creates three rules. A new rule then declares an office to exist, and the proposal declares that its posessor is chosen at random. If it turns out it doesn't work that way, I will try your suggestion. But first, let's check. I issue the following Call For Judgement: When a proposal creates a rule which declares a Thing to exist, the proposal is not seen as directly creating that Thing for the purposes of the First Sacred Law. And now, a random judge. Surprisingly, it is Dr Ducker! From drduck@u... Sun Apr 13 01:39:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 08:39:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 15153 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 08:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 08:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 08:39:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 22795 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 08:39:15 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 08:39:15 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3D8dFo29678 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:39:15 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9914BA.A914EF60@u...> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:41:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal 1 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > > Craig, I believe you forgot to assign a judge to this CFJ (it would be number > > six): > > >> > > > > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > > > The title of section 14 is 'Extra rules'. > > > > > The comment of section 14 is > > > > > 'These are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.' > > My bad. As I assign a judge, let me just put in my two cents. There is not > (yet?) a section 14 in the rules, so this cannot possibly be a statement of > fact. However, it isn't my call, it's Dr Ducker's, since HotBits gives it to > em. > I judge this Call for Judgement to be FALSE. There is no "section 14" at the time that this Call for Judgement was made, therefore neither sentence can be considered to be true. Had the CFJ referred simply to "a new section", or even better had it conditionally specified the creation of a section, then it is possible I could have judged this true. For instance if the Call had read: "If this sentence is added to the ruleset, then, at that time, a new group of rules is created, which is entitled 'Extra Rules', which contains the comment 'These are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.', and which contains any rules whose number is greater than or equal to 14.0 and less than 15.0 ." From drduck@u... Sun Apr 13 02:01:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 09:01:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 92249 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 09:01:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 09:01:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 09:01:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 26307 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 09:01:00 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 09:01:00 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3D910Y02946 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:01:00 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9919D3.4F9AA1DD@u...> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:03:31 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > I issue the following Call For Judgement: > > When a proposal creates a rule which declares a Thing to exist, the proposal > is not seen as directly creating that Thing for the purposes of the First > Sacred Law. > > And now, a random judge. Surprisingly, it is Dr Ducker! > I Judge this Call for Judgement to FALSE. The sole purpose of the action which has instigated this Call for Judgement is to create a singular new Thing (The office of the Stenotype), therefore its creation would be a direct result of the passing of the proposal containing said action. If the action in question had specified a conditional, even one that was satisfied at the time of the containing proposals passage, then the creation of the office would not have been a direct result of the proposals passage. Even something as simple as: " Rule 10.5 is created in the group OFFICES, reading: At the time of this rules creation, a new office known as the Stenotype is created, whose possessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. " This would also separate the office from its creating rule for SSL purposes. But, be careful with needing to modify the office later, 10.5 should not be destroyed and re-created with the same initial phrase, as that would create a second Stenotype, rather, a new rule would need to be added with the appropriate modifications contained within it. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 13 02:03:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 09:03:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 37102 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 09:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 09:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 09:03:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 26501 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 09:03:17 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 09:03:17 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3D93HY18348 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:03:17 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E991A5D.35BF5406@u...> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:05:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) References: <200304111523.22090.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 I, Doctor Ducker, hereby appeal this judgement. bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 10 April 2003 10:30 pm, Craig wrote: > > Having used the randomizer, I find that the judge of this proposal will be > > bd. Bd, please judge this CFJ. > > FALSE. Also, why not use the internet dice server? dice@p... will echo it > both to the requestor and to the list, thus preventing fraud. > - -- > bd > There are more things in heaven and earth, > Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. > -- Wm. Shakespeare, "Hamlet" > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE+lxYpx533NjVSos4RAionAJ4t/fQH9Yz60xqwYkqukNzSJ05AUACdHLAZ > Hhkqmkw7CYivMktOeuAXlAU= > =Dab4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: > thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 06:44:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 13:44:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 29026 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 13:44:42 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9CA1A40242; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:44:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal 1 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:44:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E9914BA.A914EF60@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >There is no "section 14" at the time that this Call for Judgement was made, >therefore neither sentence can be considered to be true. Had the CFJ referred >simply to "a new section", or even better had it conditionally specified the >creation of a section, then it is possible I could have judged this true. >For instance if the Call had read: >"If this sentence is added to the ruleset, then, at that time, a new group of >rules is created, which is entitled 'Extra Rules', which contains the comment >'These are used in the early game to allow the ruleset to grow.', and which >contains any rules whose number is greater than or equal to 14.0 and less than >15.0 ." In that case, of course, it would have been neitheer provably true nor provably false, and either judgement would be acceptable. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 06:45:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 13:45:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 78544 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 13:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 13:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 13:45:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA044EA0178; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:45:40 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:45:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E9919D3.4F9AA1DD@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> When a proposal creates a rule which declares a Thing to exist, the proposal >> is not seen as directly creating that Thing for the purposes of the First >> Sacred Law. >> >> And now, a random judge. Surprisingly, it is Dr Ducker! >> >I Judge this Call for Judgement to FALSE. I appeal. Surprise surprise. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 07:10:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 14:10:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 36723 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 14:10:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 14:10:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 14:10:09 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFC067C029C; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:10:08 -0400 To: "ThermoDyNomic" Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 1) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:10:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E991A5D.35BF5406@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I, Doctor Ducker, hereby appeal this judgement. Since neither Dr Ducker nor bd can be an appelate justice, and there are only three other players, there is no need to check the randomizer. The appelate justices are me, Cassie, and unlin_e. I don't fully understand what the caller intended, so I cannot make my judgement. If the Caller means that under the First Sacred Law, Proposal 1 was not actually submitted, then the CFJ is clearly false. Rule 5.2 implies that a proposal can be submitted without meeting the terms of the Three Sacred Laws, it is merely not Pending. But if the caller meant to ask whether the CFJ was Pending due to its violation of the terms of the First Sacred Law, then it is not, and the CFJ is trivially true. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 07:10:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 14:10:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 30688 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 14:10:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 14:10:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 14:10:55 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFEF680029C; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:10:55 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:11:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>> When a proposal creates a rule which declares a Thing to exist, the >proposal >>> is not seen as directly creating that Thing for the purposes of the First >>> Sacred Law. >>> >>> And now, a random judge. Surprisingly, it is Dr Ducker! >>> >>I Judge this Call for Judgement to FALSE. >I appeal. Surprise surprise. By the way, the appelate justices are Cassie, bd, and unlin_e. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 13 07:38:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 34108 invoked by uid 7800); 13 Apr 2003 14:37:59 -0000 Date: 13 Apr 2003 14:37:59 -0000 Message-ID: <1050244679.26578874.8413.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t The official rules of the game of Thermo. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections really are random, HotBits (accessible at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir points and things are distributed randomly between all other players.. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, and points are Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player or a Rule must be posessed by a player. Comment: This defines Things. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions necessary. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Speaker shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a point if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 07:39:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 14:39:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 58434 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 14:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 14:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 14:39:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6B6557027A; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:39:50 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] File - ruleset Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:40:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <1050244679.26578874.8413.m12@yahoogroups.com> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir points and things are distributed randomly between all other >players.. There has been a mistake. When I mistakenly thought the proposal to amend this had passed, I updated the file. I thought I had updated it again when I realized I was worng, but I guess not. I will fix that now. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 12:36:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 19:36:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 80182 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 19:36:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 19:36:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 19:36:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC34188029E; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:36:20 -0400 To: Subject: FW: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:36:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl bd's Appelate judgement below. -----Original Message----- From: bd [mailto:bdonlan@b...] Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:19 PM To: Craig Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 13 April 2003 10:11 am, Craig wrote: > >>> When a proposal creates a rule which declares a Thing to exist, the > > > >proposal > > > >>> is not seen as directly creating that Thing for the purposes of the > > First > > >>> Sacred Law. > >>> > >>> And now, a random judge. Surprisingly, it is Dr Ducker! > >> > >>I Judge this Call for Judgement to FALSE. > > > >I appeal. Surprise surprise. > > By the way, the appelate justices are Cassie, bd, and unlin_e. I rule FALSE, as well. - -- bd I don't drink, I don't like it, it makes me feel too good. -- K. Coates -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+mbgdx533NjVSos4RAhEDAJ0QY9X7r9Uu04Cc1WI0VucbCQlGDQCffEsf 5rYbIvZjE2TVsxWK+HaddS8= =qfxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 13 12:58:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 19:58:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 31731 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 19:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 19:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 19:58:37 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 282CC14E1BA; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:58:00 -0400 (EDT) To: "Craig" , Subject: Re: FW: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:57:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304131558.00487.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 13 April 2003 03:36 pm, Craig wrote: > bd's Appelate judgement below. Whoops. Thanks. - --=20 bd Ryan's Law: Make three correct guesses consecutively and you will establish yourself as an expert. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+mcFIx533NjVSos4RAlcmAKCik9LNVgIDQvEGBJQxNrEpB2WNBgCcDOgP cuyojt8VK7eDqbVJWuk3SB4=3D =3D+yam -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 14:10:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 21:10:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 23121 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 21:10:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 21:10:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 21:10:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A25C1D70246; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:10:52 -0400 To: Subject: FW: FW: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:11:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl unlin_e has sent in an appelate judgement also, reprinted below. We're waiting for Cassie, but e can't affect the decision as bd and unlin_e both rule it FALSE. I therefore submit the following proposal: Rule 10.3 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 10.3 reading as follows: 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. Rule 10.5 is created in the group OFFICES, reading: There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. Rule 11.2 is repealed and replaced with the a new rule 11.2 reading: When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. This proposal is destroyed. Proposal 2 is destroyed. A random player is named Stenographer. -----Original Message----- From: sonof [mailto:unlin_e@y...] Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 4:40 PM To: Craig Subject: Re: FW: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype --- Craig wrote: > bd's Appelate judgement below. > > -----Original Message----- > From: bd [mailto:bdonlan@b...] > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:19 PM > To: Craig > Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal: The Stenotype > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Sunday 13 April 2003 10:11 am, Craig wrote: > > >>> When a proposal creates a rule which declares a Thing to exist, the > > > > > >proposal > > > > > >>> is not seen as directly creating that Thing for the purposes of the > > > > First > > > > >>> Sacred Law. > > >>> > > >>> And now, a random judge. Surprisingly, it is Dr Ducker! > > >> > > >>I Judge this Call for Judgement to FALSE. > > > > > >I appeal. Surprise surprise. > > > > By the way, the appelate justices are Cassie, bd, and unlin_e. > > I rule FALSE, as well. > - -- > bd unlin_e concurs and rules FALSE. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 13 14:16:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17951 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 21:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 21:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 21:16:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@yahoogroups.com Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Apr 2003 21:16:12 -0000 Date: 13 Apr 2003 21:16:12 -0000 Message-ID: <1050268572.1224.74203.w62@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: poll X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: New poll for thermodynomic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the thermodynomic group: People seem to be expecting a munged reply-to header at least some of the time. I dislike munging, but will let the majority decide. Should this header be munged? o Replies should continue, by default, to go to the author of the message. o The header should be munged such that replies go to the group. o Replies should all go to Craig, the group owner. o Anyone who replies to a message on this group should be unsubscribed immediately. o I have no preference but enjoy voting in polls. To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/surveys?id=11090203 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 13 14:21:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 13 Apr 2003 21:21:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 45127 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2003 21:21:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2003 21:21:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2003 21:21:02 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4C18530256; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:21:05 -0400 To: Subject: Proposal: Online polls are fun. Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:21:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Rule 5.6 is repealed and replaced with the following: "5.6 When a proposal becomes pending, the speaker shall create a poll where players are to cast their votes." From charley@t... Mon Apr 14 00:42:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 14 Apr 2003 07:42:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 18008 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2003 07:42:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Apr 2003 07:42:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 2003 07:42:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Apr 2003 07:42:47 -0000 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:42:46 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Much ado about stuff Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1486 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey >RE: [Thermo] Call For Judgement (Regarding Proposal 3) >This one is yours, Cassie Okay, getting to it. >Hence, re: rule 8.0, I would like to make a (Registration) proposal, >which I will casually refer to as "Let There Be Josh": >(a) Delete rule 9.1. >(b) Create a new rule 9.1, which reads: > "Rules, players, proposals, offices, points, and kudoses are > Things." >(c) Create one kudos, which belongs to Josh Millard. (Which >would, of course, be the Thing besides myself for which rule 1.2 allows.) >Now I can only pray for appreciation, or mercy, or at least a >relatively brief filibuster. >Re: I quit! And I'd like to join, too! >kreig_daniyl:wrote >Huh. I seem to recall a FOR vote from Cassie, but I guess I was >hallucinating. There is one Therm. Yes, you were hallucinating, I have been buying a wedding dress all weekend. (I have the evidence). > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.1 This thing is a rule. > > > I create the following Call for Judgement: > > > 14.4 This thing is a rule. >Number one goes to Cassie. >Number four goes to Cassie. Number five I judge both false. A temporary fix is not the answer. I agree with someone else from 20 posts back...these proposals are far to ad-hoc. >Proposal: Online polls are fun >Rule 5.6 is repealed and replaced with the following: "5.6 When a >proposal >becomes pending, the speaker shall create a poll where players are to >cast >their votes." Can this be done non-anonymously?? From charley@t... Mon Apr 14 00:55:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 14 Apr 2003 07:55:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 33880 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2003 07:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Apr 2003 07:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 2003 07:55:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Apr 2003 07:55:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:55:30 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1343 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey I just came back from buying a wedding dress, and generally spending the weekend wondering why my mother found it so important to ask the caterers whether it was 'real or canned fruit in the fruit salad' and I am faced with 90 messages..... - The messages are so messy. (ie 60 lines from a previous post, followed by a two line comment) - They are all over the place. - The proposals are so hard to follow. - The debates are hard to follow (actually they are almost non- existant, every post is almost a proposal, an call for judgement, or any appeal. I am NOT going to submit any proposals, I just want a chat. I have no idea how other nomic games work, but 90 posts from just 5 peoples is scary, even if it is going to calm down, right now it is verging on dangerous (for the game). Much appreciated to bd for doing a 'unoffical report of things'. Perhaps as founders of this game, we could first each suggest a point or two that we think is most important. Agree on the most important points, and then discuss (debate)ways to deal with them, finally put forth a proposal, and hopefully get a solid foundation. I will start, by offering what I think the most important thing is. Actually two things. 1) Some order to all of the postings. 2) A good workaround to the creation deletion of points Just a thought. Cassie. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 14 03:57:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 14 Apr 2003 10:57:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 71448 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2003 10:57:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Apr 2003 10:57:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 2003 10:57:42 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A42427E0246; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:57:40 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Much ado about stuff Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:57:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Yes, you were hallucinating, I have been buying a wedding dress all >weekend. (I have the evidence). Congratulations! >>Proposal: Online polls are fun >>Rule 5.6 is repealed and replaced with the following: "5.6 When a >>proposal >>becomes pending, the speaker shall create a poll where players are >to >cast >>their votes." >Can this be done non-anonymously?? Yes. There's a little button you click when creating the poll. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 14 13:28:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 14 Apr 2003 20:28:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 37878 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2003 20:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Apr 2003 20:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 2003 20:28:42 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9FD9460280; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:28:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:28:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I am NOT going to submit any proposals, I just want a chat. >I have no idea how other nomic games work, but 90 posts from just 5 >peoples is scary, even if it is going to calm down, right now it is >verging on dangerous (for the game). >Much appreciated to bd for doing a 'unoffical report of things'. >Perhaps as founders of this game, we could first each suggest a >point or two that we think is most important. >Agree on the most important points, and then discuss (debate)ways to >deal with them, finally put forth a proposal, and hopefully get a >solid foundation. One thing is for sure: All five of us are too quick to jump into action. We make too many proposals, and then need too many CFJs. If we were all to agree to discuss everything, and then not even submit any proposal that wasn't likely to pass, we could almost definitely decrease the traffic on the list. I also think things might quiet down more if the "Online polls are fun" proposal passes, since you don't need to post to the list to vote. Another possibility is for the rules to evolve to a point where the meat of the game is no longer the rule changes, so that most of the game is at least planned in private e-mail. I think that last one may be impractical with only five players. From bdonlan@b... Mon Apr 14 16:07:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 14 Apr 2003 23:07:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 38680 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2003 23:07:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Apr 2003 23:07:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 2003 23:07:39 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A052614E1C5; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:06:45 -0400 (EDT) To: "Cassie Harley" , thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:06:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304141906.45360.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 14 April 2003 03:55 am, Cassie Harley wrote: > I just came back from buying a wedding dress, and generally spending > the weekend wondering why my mother found it so important to ask the > caterers whether it was 'real or canned fruit in the fruit salad' > and I am faced with 90 messages..... > > - The messages are so messy. (ie 60 lines from a previous post, > followed by a two line comment) > - They are all over the place. > - The proposals are so hard to follow. > - The debates are hard to follow (actually they are almost non- > existant, every post is almost a proposal, an call for judgement, or > any appeal. > > I am NOT going to submit any proposals, I just want a chat. > > I have no idea how other nomic games work, but 90 posts from just 5 > peoples is scary, even if it is going to calm down, right now it is > verging on dangerous (for the game). I've played B Nomic for a while. It has more players, and much less traffic= =20 (with a few spikes). But I haven't seen the beginning of a Nomic before. > Much appreciated to bd for doing a 'unoffical report of things'. That was Craig. > Perhaps as founders of this game, we could first each suggest a > point or two that we think is most important. > Agree on the most important points, and then discuss (debate)ways to > deal with them, finally put forth a proposal, and hopefully get a > solid foundation. > > I will start, by offering what I think the most important thing is. > Actually two things. > 1) Some order to all of the postings. > 2) A good workaround to the creation deletion of points Dunno, but here's one: Kudoses should be a way to convert Therms and points to Things, which can b= e=20 used to make new rules. The points should increase the probability of=20 success, or reduce the number of Therms required. And players should only b= e=20 allowed to destroy their own Kudoses (of course). - --=20 bd The very ink with which all history is written is merely fluid prejudice. -- Mark Twain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+mz8Fx533NjVSos4RAphHAJ47DcDsPjl7Y8YUbBvSUuFKr4om9wCgl5Ub +af/NepWQQZYPs15lo1t358=3D =3DQAW2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 14 17:30:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 00:30:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 52329 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 00:30:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 00:30:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 00:30:41 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2B536BC006E; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:30:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] New poll for thermodynomic Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <1050268572.1224.74203.w62@yahoogroups.com> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl So far, there have been six votes (out of nine members). Four are for munging, two against. Munging will begin now, and stop iff the majority expresses interest in having it stop. -----Original Message----- From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 5:16 PM To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Thermo] New poll for thermodynomic Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the thermodynomic group: People seem to be expecting a munged reply-to header at least some of the time. I dislike munging, but will let the majority decide. Should this header be munged? o Replies should continue, by default, to go to the author of the message. o The header should be munged such that replies go to the group. o Replies should all go to Craig, the group owner. o Anyone who replies to a message on this group should be unsubscribed immediately. o I have no preference but enjoy voting in polls. To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/surveys?id=11090203 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bdonlan@b... Mon Apr 14 17:33:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 00:33:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 5871 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 00:33:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 00:33:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 00:33:20 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D668614E1C7; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:32:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304142032.26124.ragnarok@p...> From: "Craig" (by way of Bryan Donlan ) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >Kudoses should be a way to convert Therms and points to Things, which can be >used to make new rules. The points should increase the probability of >success, or reduce the number of Therms required. And players should only be >allowed to destroy their own Kudoses (of course). Points are things. We should have more ways to get them created, and we should make them mean something. That is, we should make your score actually reflect how you are doing in the game. Also, perhaps we should reward people who have to do work with kudos. Judges, for example. But only if they do their job well and the judgement is not overturned on appeal. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+m1Max533NjVSos4RAhZzAKDWiRWcv5PnkSLlTS58O10bXrMs4QCfYNWW /5nKgznLgBjvsn/iJ5iz+ac= =mYBS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From charley@t... Mon Apr 14 23:44:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 06:44:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 36986 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 06:44:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 06:44:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 06:44:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2003 06:44:35 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:44:35 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200304142032.26124.ragnarok@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2775 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey Bd said: >Dunno, but here's one: >Kudoses should be a way to convert Therms and points to Things, >which can be used to make new rules. The points should increase >the probability of success, or reduce the number of Therms >required. And players should only be allowed to destroy their own >Kudoses (of course). Before we go there, can we identify simply what the problem is, in that way it will give us a clear goal as we try to address these problems. ie We need a way to increase things. Craig said: >If we were all to agree to discuss everything, and then not even >submit any proposal that wasn't likely to pass. I have an idea, could we (quickly) work together to write a proposal that would suspend the game for one week (or until we vote it to resume), so that all pending proposals that have not expired or been passed (and none have passed as I have not voted yet so we have until friday night) be suspended, and resume when the 'town meeting' is over, maybe we could make the 'town meeting' some kind of event. This would give us time to address the problems, find some solutions, and take stock, without having to deal with things that are floating around. If we worked together (ie no one actually post the proposal until we are all happy) we could come up with a foolproof proposal to allow a quick suspension of everything? how about: changing rule 5.7 from 'A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted' to 5.7 A proposal expires if three weeks have passed since it was submitted OR add: 5.9 No proposal may be submitted during a town meeting (delete this proposal) add: 5.10 No player may vote on a proposal during a town meeting unless it is a special proposal (delete this proposal) add: 6.8 A town meeting may only be called by an officer. (delete this proposal) 6.9 A town meeting is declared when the majority of players agree to it. (delete this proposal) I kind of like this second idea, it will begin to add some fun. I mean the town meeting could take directions. ie attending a town meeting or not attending could have consequences, lynch mobs might try to interrupt the meeting. There could be things like a town meeting may only be called by officers. stuff like that (but not for now, just a thought). I do not know. Just throwing about some ideas. Or shall we just let all the current proposals do their thing, and all agree to withhold proposals until we address some issues. I think the important issues as they stand at the moment (please correct/add) are: 1) Some order to all of the postings. [Cassie thinks] 2) A good workaround to the creation deletion of points [Cassie thinks] 3) We need a way to increase things. [Bd thinks](please correct me if I misunderstood) Cassie. From charley@t... Mon Apr 14 23:51:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 06:51:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 45866 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 06:51:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 06:51:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 06:51:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2003 06:51:08 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:51:06 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 564 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey Just re-read Craigs post, and have addes his points. I think the important issues as they stand at the moment (please correct/add) are: 0) Suspend proposals during town meeting or not? 1) Some order to all of the postings. 2) A good workaround to the creation/deletion of points 3) A way to increase things. 4) A way to make points better reflect how we are going 5) Pay the people (in some way) who do the work. Any more issues that need addressing? I guess 2 & 3 are really the same issue. If those are all the issues, then which need dealing with first? From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 15 09:44:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 16:44:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 71269 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2003 16:44:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:44:43 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 837 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > Just re-read Craigs post, and have addes his points. > > I think the important issues as they stand at the moment (please > correct/add) are: > > 0) Suspend proposals during town meeting or not? > 1) Some order to all of the postings. > 2) A good workaround to the creation/deletion of points > 3) A way to increase things. > 4) A way to make points better reflect how we are going > 5) Pay the people (in some way) who do the work. Actually, I meant that if we add something called a "kudos" it should reflect what praiseworthy things the recipient has done. > Any more issues that need addressing? > I guess 2 & 3 are really the same issue. > > If those are all the issues, then which need dealing with first? I think issues 2/3 are the most important in-game issues, while issue 1 is the most important out-of-game issue. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 15 09:44:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 38229 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 16:44:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2003 16:44:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:44:43 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 837 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > Just re-read Craigs post, and have addes his points. > > I think the important issues as they stand at the moment (please > correct/add) are: > > 0) Suspend proposals during town meeting or not? > 1) Some order to all of the postings. > 2) A good workaround to the creation/deletion of points > 3) A way to increase things. > 4) A way to make points better reflect how we are going > 5) Pay the people (in some way) who do the work. Actually, I meant that if we add something called a "kudos" it should reflect what praiseworthy things the recipient has done. > Any more issues that need addressing? > I guess 2 & 3 are really the same issue. > > If those are all the issues, then which need dealing with first? I think issues 2/3 are the most important in-game issues, while issue 1 is the most important out-of-game issue. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 15 13:13:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 20:13:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 66593 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 20:13:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 20:13:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 20:13:45 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02EFE14E1EA; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, "Cassie Harley" Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:12:38 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304151612.38918.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 15 April 2003 02:51 am, Cassie Harley wrote: > Just re-read Craigs post, and have addes his points. > > I think the important issues as they stand at the moment (please > correct/add) are: > > 0) Suspend proposals during town meeting or not? Yes > 1) Some order to all of the postings. Definitely :) > 2) A good workaround to the creation/deletion of points The only thing I can think of is going to a pure nomic, but that sort of=20 defeats the point. > 3) A way to increase things. > 4) A way to make points better reflect how we are going > 5) Pay the people (in some way) who do the work. No idea. > Any more issues that need addressing? > I guess 2 & 3 are really the same issue. > > If those are all the issues, then which need dealing with first? We should suspend things for a while. If necessary, temporarily remove the = 1st=20 law... - --=20 bd BOFH excuse #298: Not enough interrupts -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+nGe2x533NjVSos4RAt3DAKC9sgI3FqAwE+1NBxegp92rlqW3mgCgnIqd DeuuS9Uwkm17nHr+AIlhp7U=3D =3DQ3Bu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 15 13:19:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 20:19:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 46110 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 20:19:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 20:19:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 20:19:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A96784302A6; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:19:51 -0400 To: Subject: Prop 2.1 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:19:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl My "proposal 2", when it was generally agreed that things needed to be fixed, included a temporary First Sacred Law hiatus. Dr Ducker voted it down. If the docta agrees, I will repropose the hiatus; for now I'll reiterate the other part. I think this was less hated; I will propose only this if people support it. >Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No >proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number >of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted by >rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." >Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A >Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the >game." What do people think? Should I officially resubmit this portion? From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 15 13:23:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 20:23:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 94026 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3949514E1EC; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:22:34 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Prop 2.1 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:22:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304151622.33470.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 15 April 2003 04:19 pm, Craig wrote: > My "proposal 2", when it was generally agreed that things needed to be > fixed, included a temporary First Sacred Law hiatus. Dr Ducker voted it > down. If the docta agrees, I will repropose the hiatus; for now I'll > reiterate the other part. I think this was less hated; I will propose onl= y > this if people support it. > > >Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > >proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the numb= er > >of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitte= d > > by > > >rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > > >Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > >Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in t= he > >game." > > What do people think? Should I officially resubmit this portion? Sounds good - provided it's temporary. - --=20 bd There are worse things than Perl....ASP comes to mind -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+nGoJx533NjVSos4RAirRAJ47DVtfDYrQnamq5UpWDOA1ptwuegCfUsFN BtpHeUYceuHdpGR9Ulqk43Q=3D =3DbQMA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 15 14:08:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 21:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 82958 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 21:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 21:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 21:08:21 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4C88A20266; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:08:24 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Prop 2.1 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:08:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304151622.33470.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> My "proposal 2", when it was generally agreed that things needed to be >> fixed, included a temporary First Sacred Law hiatus. Dr Ducker voted it >> down. If the docta agrees, I will repropose the hiatus; for now I'll >> reiterate the other part. I think this was less hated; I will propose only >> this if people support it. >> >> >Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No >> >proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number >> >of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted >> >> by >> >> >rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." >> > >> >Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A >> >Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the >> >game." >> >> What do people think? Should I officially resubmit this portion? >Sounds good - provided it's temporary. This is Nomic. Everything in the game is temporary. Anything can be undone at any time, unless we decide we like it. From cortex@n... Tue Apr 15 14:59:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 21:59:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 69776 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 21:59:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 21:59:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 21:59:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 31314 invoked by uid 1006); 15 Apr 2003 21:59:25 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:59:25 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Prop 2.1 Message-ID: <20030415175924.A31305@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 04:19:48PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 04:19:48PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > My "proposal 2", when it was generally agreed that things needed to be > fixed, included a temporary First Sacred Law hiatus. Dr Ducker voted it > down. If the docta agrees, I will repropose the hiatus; for now I'll > reiterate the other part. I think this was less hated; I will propose only > this if people support it. > > >Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > >proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number > >of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted > by > >rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > >Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > >Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the > >game." > > What do people think? Should I officially resubmit this portion? I would, in theory, vote for this. If I was a player. :) Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Tue Apr 15 15:29:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 22:29:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 3843 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 22:29:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 22:29:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 22:29:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 20883 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 22:29:10 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 22:29:10 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3FMTAX21054 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:29:10 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9C7A83.7EF40D13@u...> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:32:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Prop 2.1 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > My "proposal 2", when it was generally agreed that things needed to be > fixed, included a temporary First Sacred Law hiatus. Dr Ducker voted it > down. If the docta agrees, I will repropose the hiatus; for now I'll > reiterate the other part. I think this was less hated; I will propose only > this if people support it. > > >Rule 1.1 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.1 reading "No > >proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number > >of Things in the game by more than one, unless it is explicitly permitted > by > >rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW." > > >Rule 1.2 is to be deleted, and replaced with a new rule 1.2 reading "A > >Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the > >game." > > What do people think? Should I officially resubmit this portion? > This is a distinct improvement, though I still believe unnecessary. I will, however, concede to the will of the group on it, and Abstain, if this is proposed. I would also like to point out that it could do with some improvements in the language, so perhaps more like: -------------------------- Destroy rule 1.1 Create a rule 1.1 under the group entitled "FIRST SACRED LAW" which reads: A proposal which is submitted, and whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game by more than one, except as explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW, shall be considered INERT, and shall not be considered PENDING. Destroy rule 1.2 Create a rule 1.2 under the group entitled "FIRST SACRED LAW" which reads: A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to three, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. -------------------------- It's still restrictive, and it maintains the flavor of the game's spirit, but gives a little more leeway to create things. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 15 16:20:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 15 Apr 2003 23:20:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 90821 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 23:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2003 23:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 23:20:22 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3BA4550258; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:20:26 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Prop 2.1 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:20:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E9C7A83.7EF40D13@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >It's still restrictive, and it maintains the flavor of the game's spirit, but >gives a little more leeway to create things. I like this version very much. I do think that it better fits the spirit of the game (though I imagine that the spirit will evolve with time). This is a nomic, so we ought to give the rules more room to change; at the same time it is Thermo, so we ought to stay restrictive - at least for now. From charley@t... Tue Apr 15 23:27:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: charley@t... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 06:27:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 8543 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 06:27:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 06:27:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 06:27:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Apr 2003 06:27:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 06:27:22 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Prop 2.1 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 263 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Cassie Harley" X-Originating-IP: 211.26.18.70 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=73323064 X-Yahoo-Profile: chose_2_obey I am against this (at least for now). It doesn't solve any problems. It just opens the floor it stacks of proposals, and would ultimately be dangerous for the game until we as a group have decided on some priorites, and debated the best way to go about them. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 16 02:29:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 09:29:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 61785 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 09:29:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 09:29:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 09:29:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 9042 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 09:29:12 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 09:29:12 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3G9TCQ08523 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:29:12 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E9D1542.D2845A46@u...> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:33:06 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Call for a town meeting!!!!!!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Cassie Harley wrote: > - The messages are so messy. (ie 60 lines from a previous post, followed by a two line comment) Not an uncommon thing in general with email, and newsgroups. I agree it's ugly but these seem to be fairly hard habits for some to break; Even this message is somewhat an example. ;) > - They are all over the place. Most of this, IMHO, is that Yahoo's groups software doesn't deal with threaded messages very well. > - The proposals are so hard to follow. Are you referring to the text of the individual proposals themselves, or more to the way the emails' threading gets broken? If the latter, then again I criticize Yahoo's group system; if the former then I'm not sure what _exactly_ you're talking about, I had no trouble reading, understanding, and analyzing the proposals that were submitted. Keeping track of who said what in regards to which message, etc. -- that I had a bit of trouble with, and can imagine that trying to figure out where everything stands after the weekend must have been a painfull experience. I suggest something like: Create a rule 5.01 under the group entitled "PROPOSALS" which reads: A proposal shall not have been considered to have been submitted to the mailing list unless it is contained within a message which creates a new thread, and which contains no other proposals or Calls for Judgements. > - The debates are hard to follow (actually they are almost non-existant, every post is almost a proposal, an call for judgement, or any appeal. This is something I was more-or-less expecting. The rules as they currently stand are extremely limited, and therefore we need to get them functional and usable. The only means we have towards that end is through proposals and CFJs. As a side note I've created a file on the yahoo site that shows all proposals and CFJs that I know of, including votes, judgements, etc. It's called "ThermoProposals.html". I may be a little out-of-date so let me know if I missed something. It should be available here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/files/ThermoProposals.html > > 0) Suspend proposals during town meeting or not? I'm not in any hurry, so I'll hold back on anything that I don't think is "earth-shattering". ;) > 1) Some order to all of the postings. To me it looks like the early stages of proposing and CFJ-ing are towards that very purpose. I'm certainly all for a bit more procedure to things. > 2) A good workaround to the creation/deletion of points I personally find the current ambiguity amusing (for instance, is a "negative point", a Thing?), though I realize that at a later time it could hamper play. Something like the following could solve the issue: Create a rule 9.8 under the group entitled "THINGS" which reads: If a rule calls for the destruction of a Thing, and there are no instances of said type of Thing, then nothing is destroyed, though the number of Therms is still increased by one, and the Player whose action caused said destruction shall receive one Kudos. > 3) A way to increase things. I think this "difficulty" of increasing things within the game is part of the "flavor" of the game, and as I've stated in other posts, I think there are already plenty of ways to get new things into the game. I'll admit that they're loopholes at this point, and we may need/want to codify some more refined methods of getting new things, but I kind of like the fact that on the surface it appears there are no easy ways to increase the number of Things. > 4) A way to make points better reflect how we are going > 5) Pay the people (in some way) who do the work. These, to me, seem to be the same issue; that being some sort of reward structure. I think these will probably develop as play continues. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 08:47:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 15:47:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 18909 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 15:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 15:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 15:46:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Apr 2003 15:46:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:46:27 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Proposals File Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 669 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Kudos(es) to Dr Ducker for the proposal-and-vote file. I have set it to be sent to the group biweekly, like the ruleset. I notice that I have some outstanding duties, which I deal with as follows. On my proposal "The Stenotype Take 2", my vote is FOR. On my proposal "Online Polls Are Fun", my vote is FOR. On the appeal of CFJ 7, the illegality of Proposal 1, I have a question for the caller. IMO, if the CFJ is intended to mean that a TSL violation makes the proposal non-pending, it is TRUE. If the CFJ is intended to mean that the proposal was not submitted because of its TSL violation, I believe it is FALSE. I hereby ask the caller for clarification. From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 16 14:43:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 21:43:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 49452 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 21:43:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 21:43:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 21:43:44 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 30B0814E1F4; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:42:29 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Votes Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:42:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I vote: 3. ABSTAIN 11. FOR 12. AGAINST Also, the prop list should be plain text, or not sent to the list. My=20 mailreader dosen't show HTML (for some very good reasons), and it'll come o= ut=20 looking like so much markup. - --=20 bd Brussels, Belgium <--> Bless glum bruise -- anagrama -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+nc5Ex533NjVSos4RAlnNAJ90w1tGmwDPsWb2FnrFyTNPdEwBLACgxDuk eQqR7Iygo86AAjTOD7tEJDw=3D =3DBRlT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 14:46:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 21:46:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 21807 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 21:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 21:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 21:46:15 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF2AAE5017E; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:46:18 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Votes Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:46:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Also, the prop list should be plain text, or not sent to the list. My >mailreader dosen't show HTML (for some very good reasons), and it'll come out >looking like so much markup. I also dislike HTML mail. However, Yahoo says that only textfiles will be sent to the list as e-mail, all other files will be as attachments. From cortex@n... Wed Apr 16 14:58:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 21:58:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 1121 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 21:58:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 21:58:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 21:58:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 3290 invoked by uid 1006); 16 Apr 2003 21:58:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:58:15 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Votes Message-ID: <20030416175815.A3268@a...> References: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...>; from bdonlan@b... on Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 05:42:28PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 05:42:28PM -0400, bd keyboarded: > Also, the prop list should be plain text, or not sent to the list. My > mailreader dosen't show HTML (for some very good reasons), and it'll come out > looking like so much markup. Aye. I'm interacting via mutt in a PuTTY window. Plain text forever! Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Wed Apr 16 15:01:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 22:01:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 26943 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 22:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:01:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 11572 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:01:30 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:01:30 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3GM1Uf22193 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:01:30 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3E9DC5A3.BBDA9857@u...> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:05:40 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 kreig_daniyl wrote: > > On the appeal of CFJ 7, the illegality of Proposal 1, I have a > question for the caller. IMO, if the CFJ is intended to mean that a > TSL violation makes the proposal non-pending, it is TRUE. If the CFJ > is intended to mean that the proposal was not submitted because of > its TSL violation, I believe it is FALSE. I hereby ask the caller for > clarification. > If I understand your question, it seems to revolve around the phrase "submitted illegally". Obviously the proposal was submitted, we wouldn't be able to have this discussion on it otherwise. So that leaves the term "illegally", to be be at issue. Essentially what I was asking for was a round-about way of defining what is or isn't "illegal". So the Judgement is left to your interpretation of "illegally". I've also updated the ThermoProposal.html file with your votes, and renamed the Old version. I'm not sure whether the auto-delivery is attached to the file itself, or the filename. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 16 15:10:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 22:10:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 19335 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 22:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:10:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 13039 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:10:16 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:10:16 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3GMAGf13553 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:10:16 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3E9DC7B2.EFFC023E@u...> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:14:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Votes References: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > I vote: > 3. ABSTAIN > 11. FOR > 12. AGAINST I've upped your votes. > > > Also, the prop list should be plain text, or not sent to the list. My > mailreader dosen't show HTML (for some very good reasons), and it'll come out > looking like so much markup. I think it should not be sent to the list then. A tabular structure is a pain to deal with in plain text, and fairly painless in HTML. It's just a web browser click or two away anyway. From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 16 15:13:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 22:13:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 61735 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 22:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:13:16 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DA6A714E200; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:12:01 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Votes Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:12:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...> <3E9DC7B2.EFFC023E@u...> In-Reply-To: <3E9DC7B2.EFFC023E@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304161812.00643.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 16 April 2003 05:14 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > I vote: > > 3. ABSTAIN > > 11. FOR > > 12. AGAINST > > I've upped your votes. > > > Also, the prop list should be plain text, or not sent to the list. My > > mailreader dosen't show HTML (for some very good reasons), and it'll co= me > > out looking like so much markup. > > I think it should not be sent to the list then. A tabular structure is a > pain to deal with in plain text, and fairly painless in HTML. It's just = a > web browser click or two away anyway. lynx could format it for sending to the list... - --=20 bd Mosher's Law of Software Engineering: Don't worry if it doesn't work right. If everything did, you'd be out of a job. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ndUwx533NjVSos4RAqDWAJ9QR6bYi9HxHfpm7VXRpN9HAI5ufwCgnNBt DR9iDynpvp+MpLISpPnweEk=3D =3D9NeG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Wed Apr 16 15:23:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 22:23:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 86433 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 22:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:23:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 12710 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:23:51 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:23:51 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3GMNlU26111 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:23:47 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9DCADD.CBF5F65F@u...> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:27:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Votes References: <200304161742.28672.bdonlan@b...> <3E9DC7B2.EFFC023E@u...> <200304161812.00643.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------628BD9199A2AA89FA51C26FB" From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 --------------628BD9199A2AA89FA51C26FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wednesday 16 April 2003 05:14 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > bd wrote: > > > I vote: > > > 3. ABSTAIN > > > 11. FOR > > > 12. AGAINST > > > > I've upped your votes. > > > > > Also, the prop list should be plain text, or not sent to the list. My > > > mailreader dosen't show HTML (for some very good reasons), and it'll come > > > out looking like so much markup. > > > > I think it should not be sent to the list then. A tabular structure is a > > pain to deal with in plain text, and fairly painless in HTML. It's just a > > web browser click or two away anyway. > > lynx could format it for sending to the list... I think you're confused: lynx doesn't handle tables, it's links that does. I just tried it, and while it's do-able, links forces it into 80 columns, which makes it really tall and skinny, thus fairly hard to read. I've enclosed a copy as an example. --------------628BD9199A2AA89FA51C26FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="ThermoProposals.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ThermoProposals.txt" Note: all dates and times are from yahoo groups using a +0 time zone Proposals: +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | |Proposal Name |Proposal Body |Proposal Status |Votes |Notes | | | | | |Cast | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |1 |"Proposal 1" |The follow rule|Submitted on Thu,|FOR: | | | | |be created: |10 Apr 2003 at |AGAINST: | | | | |10.5 An office |10:44am by Cassie|ABSTAIN: | | | | |exists known as|Harley |NO VOTE | | | | |the 'Proposal | |YET: | | | | |Officer' |Not Pending due | | | | | | |to TSL violations| | | | | |The follow rule| | | | | | |be created: | | | | | | |10.6 The job of| | | | | | |the 'Proposal | | | | | | |Officer' shall | | | | | | |be to ensure | | | | | | |proposals are | | | | | | |correctly | | | | | | |processed. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The follow rule| | | | | | |be created: | | | | | | |10.7 If the | | | | | | |position of | | | | | | |'Proposal | | | | | | |Officer' is | | | | | | |vacated, then | | | | | | |it is the duty | | | | | | |of the | | | | | | |'Speaker' to | | | | | | |call an | | | | | | |election. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The follow rule| | | | | | |be created: | | | | | | |5.9 The owner | | | | | | |of the proposal| | | | | | |may process the| | | | | | |proposal | | | | | | |eyself. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The follow rule| | | | | | |be created: | | | | | | |5.10 If the | | | | | | |owner has | | | | | | |incorrectly | | | | | | |processed a | | | | | | |proposal it | | | | | | |will be deemed | | | | | | |to have | | | | | | |expired. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The follow rule| | | | | | |be created: | | | | | | |5.11 A proposal| | | | | | |is processed | | | | | | |when it has | | | | | | |been submitted | | | | | | |to the mailing | | | | | | |list with a | | | | | | |subject heading| | | | | | |as follows | | | | | | |'Proposal X', | | | | | | |where X is the | | | | | | |next number | | | | | | |following in | | | | | | |chronological | | | | | | |order from the | | | | | | |number of the | | | | | | |last proposal. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The following | | | | | | |rule be | | | | | | |deleted: | | | | | | |5.2 A pending | | | | | | |proposal is a | | | | | | |proposal which | | | | | | |obeys the Three| | | | | | |Sacred Laws, | | | | | | |has been | | | | | | |submitted to | | | | | | |the official | | | | | | |mailing list, | | | | | | |and has not | | | | | | |expired. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The follow rule| | | | | | |be created: | | | | | | |5.2 A pending | | | | | | |proposal is a | | | | | | |proposal which | | | | | | |obeys the Three| | | | | | |Sacred Laws, | | | | | | |has been | | | | | | |processed, and | | | | | | |has not | | | | | | |expired. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |2 | |Destroy 7.3 |Submitted on Thu,|FOR: |Can't | | | |Create: |10 Apr 2003 at |bd |fail. | | | |7.3 When a |09:35pm by bd |Craig | | | | |player | |Dr Ducker| | | | |deregisters, |Pending |Josh | | | | |one of eir | |unlin_e | | | | |points is | |AGAINST: | | | | |destroyed, and | |ABSTAIN: | | | | |all eir points | |NO VOTE | | | | |and things | |YET: | | | | |are distributed| |Cassie | | | | |randomly | | | | | | |between all | | | | | | |other players. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |3 |"Proposal 2" |Rule 1.1 is to |Submitted on Thu,|FOR: |Can't Pass| | | |be deleted, and|10 Apr 2003 at |unlin_e | | | | |replaced with a|09:44pm by Craig |AGAINST: | | | | |new rule 1.1 |Daniel |Dr Ducker| | | | |reading "No | |ABSTAIN: | | | | |proposal may be|Pending |bd | | | | |submitted whose| |NO VOTE | | | | |passage would | |YET: | | | | |directly | |Cassie | | | | |increase the | |Craig | | | | |number of | | | | | | |Things in the | | | | | | |game by more | | | | | | |than one, | | | | | | |unless it is | | | | | | |explicitly | | | | | | |permitted by | | | | | | |rules in the | | | | | | |group headed | | | | | | |FIRST SACRED | | | | | | |LAW." | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Rule 1.2 is to | | | | | | |be deleted, and| | | | | | |replaced with a| | | | | | |new rule 1.2 | | | | | | |reading "A | | | | | | |Registration | | | | | | |Proposal may, | | | | | | |if passed, | | | | | | |increase the | | | | | | |number of | | | | | | |Things in the | | | | | | |game." | | | | | | | | | | | | | |A rule 1.0 is | | | | | | |to be added, | | | | | | |reading "The | | | | | | |rules in the | | | | | | |group headed | | | | | | |FIRST SACRED | | | | | | |LAW are in | | | | | | |temporary | | | | | | |hiatus and will| | | | | | |not be in force| | | | | | |until such time| | | | | | |as this rule is| | | | | | |repealed." | | | | | | | | | | | | | |The comment on | | | | | | |the FIRST | | | | | | |SACRED LAW will| | | | | | |be amended to | | | | | | |read, "Without | | | | | | |outside | | | | | | |influence, the | | | | | | |game cannot | | | | | | |expand at a | | | | | | |very high | | | | | | |rate." | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Rule 4.0 will | | | | | | |be deleted, but| | | | | | |players are | | | | | | |advised to | | | | | | |continue to use| | | | | | |short rules in | | | | | | |case of SSL | | | | | | |damage. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |4 |"Proposal 3" |CREATE Rule |Submitted on Thu,|FOR: | | | | |5.9, "A therm |10 Apr 2003 at |AGAINST: | | | | |is destroyed |10:16pm by |bd | | | | |when a rule is |unlin_e |Dr Ducker| | | | |created." | |ABSTAIN: | | | | | |Not Pending due |NO VOTE | | | | | |to TSL violations|YET: | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |5 |"Proposal 3, |CREATE Rule |Submitted on |FOR: | | | |Version 2" |5.9, "When a |Thu Apr 10, 2003 |AGAINST: | | | | |rule is |at 10:28 pm by |bd | | | | |created, choose|unlin_e |Dr Ducker| | | | |randomly | |ABSTAIN: | | | | |between |Not Pending due |NO VOTE | | | | |destroying one |to TSL violations|YET: | | | | |therm and | | | | | | |destroying two | | | | | | |therms." | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |6 |"Proposal Dr. |Create a Rule: |Submitted on Thu |FOR: | | | |Ducker::1" |5.9 When a rule|Apr 10, 2003 at |Dr Ducker| | | | |is created, |11:18 pm by |AGAINST: | | | | |choose randomly|Doctor Ducker |bd | | | | |between | |ABSTAIN: | | | | |destroying one |Pending |Craig | | | | |therm and | |NO VOTE | | | | |destroying two | |YET: | | | | |therms. | |Cassie | | | | | | |unlin_e | | | | |Destroy this | | | | | | |Proposal. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |7 |"Let There be |(a) Delete rule|Submitted on Fri |FOR: |There may | | |Josh" |9.1. |Apr 11, 2003 at |bd |be a CJF | | | | |12:34 am by Josh |Craig |on who | | | |(b) Create a |Millard |Dr Ducker|owns this | | | |new rule 9.1, |(Registration |AGAINST: |proposal? | | | |which reads: |Proposal) |ABSTAIN: | | | | |"Rules, | |NO VOTE |Can't Fail| | | |players, |Pending |YET: |(unless it| | | |proposals, | |Cassie |isn't a | | | |offices, | |unlin_e |valid | | | |points, and | | |proposal) | | | |kudoses are | | | | | | |Things." | | | | | | | | | | | | | |(c) Create one | | | | | | |kudos, which | | | | | | |belongs to Josh| | | | | | |Millard. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |8 |Craig's |Rule 0.3 is |Submitted on |FOR: |Can't Fail| | |untitled prop |destroyed and |Fri Apr 11, 2003 |bd | | | |(about |replaced with |at 8:49 pm by |Craig | | | |randomizers) |"0.3 To ensure|Craig |unlin_e | | | | |that random | |AGAINST: | | | | |selections |Pending |ABSTAIN: | | | | |occur without | |NO VOTE | | | | |fraud, | |YET: | | | | |dice@p... | |Cassie | | | | |shall be used | |Dr Ducker| | | | |whenever | | | | | | |anything random| | | | | | |is called for."| | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |9 |"The |Rule 10.3 is |Submitted on |FOR: | | | |Stenotype" |repealed and |Fri Apr 11, 2003 |Craig | | | | |replaced with a|at 8:56 pm by |AGAINST: | | | | |new rule 10.3 |Craig |ABSTAIN: | | | | |reading as | |NO VOTE | | | | |follows: |Not Pending due |YET: | | | | |10.3 The |to TSL violations|bd | | | | |Speaker shall | |Cassie | | | | |be in charge of| |Dr Ducker| | | | |tabulating | |unlin_e | | | | |votes and | | | | | | |making any | | | | | | |random | | | | | | |decisions that | | | | | | |the rules do | | | | | | |not ask another| | | | | | |player to make.| | | | | | | | | | | | | |Rule 10.5 is | | | | | | |created in the | | | | | | |group OFFICES, | | | | | | |reading: | | | | | | |There is an | | | | | | |office known as| | | | | | |the Stenotype, | | | | | | |whose posessor,| | | | | | |the | | | | | | |Stenographer, | | | | | | |is responsible | | | | | | |for tracking | | | | | | |all past | | | | | | |judgements and | | | | | | |for assigning | | | | | | |Judges and | | | | | | |Appelate | | | | | | |Justices. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Rule 11.2 is | | | | | | |repealed and | | | | | | |replaced with | | | | | | |the a new rule | | | | | | |11.2 reading: | | | | | | |When a Call For| | | | | | |Judgement is | | | | | | |issued, the | | | | | | |Stenographer | | | | | | |shall randomly | | | | | | |choose a | | | | | | |player, who | | | | | | |shall be known | | | | | | |as the Judge. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |This proposal | | | | | | |is destroyed. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |A random player| | | | | | |is named | | | | | | |Stenographer. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |10|"Spring |All non-pending|Submitted on |FOR: |Can't Fail| | |Cleaning" |proposals are |Fri Apr 11, 2003 |bd | | | | |destroyed. |at 09:59 pm by |unlin_e | | | | | |Craig Daniel |Craig | | | | | | |AGAINST: | | | | | |Pending |ABSTAIN: | | | | | | |NO VOTE | | | | | | |YET: | | | | | | |Cassie | | | | | | |Dr Ducker| | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |11|"the stenotype|Rule 10.3 is |Submitted on |FOR: | | | |take 2" |repealed and |Sun Apr 13, 2003 |bd | | | | |replaced with a|at 10:11 pm by |Craig | | | | |new rule 10.3 |Craig Daniel |AGAINST: | | | | |reading as | |ABSTAIN: | | | | |follows: |Pending |NO VOTE | | | | |10.3 The | |YET: | | | | |Speaker shall | |Cassie | | | | |be in charge of| |Dr Ducker| | | | |tabulating | |unlin_e | | | | |votes and | | | | | | |making any | | | | | | |random | | | | | | |decisions that | | | | | | |the rules do | | | | | | |not ask another| | | | | | |player to make.| | | | | | | | | | | | | |Rule 10.5 is | | | | | | |created in the | | | | | | |group OFFICES, | | | | | | |reading: | | | | | | |There is an | | | | | | |office known as| | | | | | |the Stenotype, | | | | | | |whose posessor,| | | | | | |the | | | | | | |Stenographer, | | | | | | |is responsible | | | | | | |for tracking | | | | | | |all past | | | | | | |judgements and | | | | | | |for assigning | | | | | | |Judges and | | | | | | |Appelate | | | | | | |Justices. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Rule 11.2 is | | | | | | |repealed and | | | | | | |replaced with | | | | | | |the a new rule | | | | | | |11.2 reading: | | | | | | |When a Call For| | | | | | |Judgement is | | | | | | |issued, the | | | | | | |Stenographer | | | | | | |shall randomly | | | | | | |choose a | | | | | | |player, who | | | | | | |shall be known | | | | | | |as the Judge. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |This proposal | | | | | | |is destroyed. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Proposal 2 is | | | | | | |destroyed. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |A random player| | | | | | |is named | | | | | | |Stenographer. | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| |12|"Online polls |Rule 5.6 is |Submitted on |FOR: | | | |are fun" |repealed and |Sun Apr 13, 2003 |Craig | | | | |replaced with |at 10:21 pm by |AGAINST: | | | | |the following: |Craig Daniel |bd | | | | |"5.6 When a | |ABSTAIN: | | | | |proposal |Pending |NO VOTE | | | | |becomes | |YET: | | | | |pending, the | |Cassie | | | | |speaker shall | |Dr Ducker| | | | |create a poll | |unlin_e | | | | |where players | | | | | | |are to cast | | | | | | |their votes." | | | | |--+--------------+---------------+-----------------+---------+----------| | | | | |FOR: | | | | | | |AGAINST: | | | | | | |ABSTAIN: | | | | | | |NO VOTE | | | | | | |YET: | | | | | | |bd | | | | | | |Cassie | | | | | | |Craig | | | | | | |Dr Ducker| | | | | | |unlin_e | | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Calls For Judgement: +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | |CFJ Body |CFJ Status |Judgement |Appellate |Notes| | | | | |Judgement | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |1 |14.1 This thing is|Submitted on|FALSE | | | | |a rule. |Thu 10 Apr | | | | | | |2003 at | | | | | | |23:42 by bd.| | | | | | |Assigned to | | | | | | |Cassie for | | | | | | |Judgement. | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |2 |14.2 This thing is|Submitted on|TRUE | | | | |a rule. |Thu 10 Apr | | | | | | |2003 at | | | | | | |23:42 by bd.| | | | | | |Assigned to | | | | | | |unlin_e for | | | | | | |Judgement. | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |3 |14.3 This thing is|Submitted on|FALSE | | | | |a rule. |Thu 10 Apr |I do so due to | | | | | |2003 at |the fact that | | | | | |23:42 by bd.|this CFJ | | | | | |Assigned to |contains a | | | | | |Dr Ducker |number which is | | | | | |for |not necessarily | | | | | |Judgement. |the rule number | | | | | | |under which it | | | | | | |would be added | | | | | | |according to | | | | | | |rules 13.0 and | | | | | | |13.1 . | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |4 |14.4 This thing is|Submitted on|FALSE | | | | |a rule. |Thu 10 Apr | | | | | | |2003 at | | | | | | |23:42 by bd.| | | | | | |Assigned to | | | | | | |Cassie for | | | | | | |Judgement. | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |5 |14.5 This thing is|Submitted on|FALSE | | | | |a rule. |Thu 10 Apr | | | | | | |2003 at | | | | | | |11:42 pm by | | | | | | |bd. | | | | | | |Assigned to | | | | | | |Craig for | | | | | | |Judgement. | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |6 |The title of |Submitted on|FALSE | | | | |section 14 is |Thu 10 Apr |There is no | | | | |'Extra rules'. The|2003 at |"section 14" at | | | | |comment of section|23:42 by bd.|the time that | | | | |14 is 'These are |Assigned to |this Call for | | | | |used in the early |Dr Ducker |Judgement was | | | | |game to allow the |for |made, therefore | | | | |ruleset to grow.' |Judgement. |neither sentence| | | | | | |can be | | | | | | |considered to be| | | | | | |true. Had the | | | | | | |CFJ referred | | | | | | |simply to "a new| | | | | | |section", or | | | | | | |even better had | | | | | | |it conditionally| | | | | | |specified the | | | | | | |creation of a | | | | | | |section, then it| | | | | | |is possible I | | | | | | |could have | | | | | | |judged this | | | | | | |true. | | | | | | |For instance if | | | | | | |the Call had | | | | | | |read: | | | | | | |"If this | | | | | | |sentence is | | | | | | |added to the | | | | | | |ruleset, then, | | | | | | |at that time, a | | | | | | |new group of | | | | | | |rules is | | | | | | |created, which | | | | | | |is entitled | | | | | | |'Extra Rules', | | | | | | |which contains | | | | | | |the comment | | | | | | |'These are used | | | | | | |in the early | | | | | | |game to allow | | | | | | |the ruleset to | | | | | | |grow.', and | | | | | | |which contains | | | | | | |any rules whose | | | | | | |number is | | | | | | |greater than or | | | | | | |equal to 14.0 | | | | | | |and less than | | | | | | |15.0 ." | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |7 |The proposal, |Submitted on|FALSE |Cassie: | | | |known as "Proposal|Thu Apr 10, | |Craig: | | | |1", Submitted on |2003 at | |unlin_e: | | | |Thursday, the 10th|11:08 pm by | | | | | |of April |Dr Ducker. | | | | | |2003 at 10:44am by|Assigned to | | | | | |Cassie Harley, was|bd for | | | | | |submitted |Judgement. | | | | | |illegally under |Apealled on | | | | | |Rule 1.1 . |Sun Apr 13, | | | | | | |2003 at 9:05| | | | | | |am by Dr | | | | | | |Ducker. | | | | | | |Assigned to | | | | | | |Cassie, | | | | | | |Craig and | | | | | | |unlin_e for | | | | | | |Appellate | | | | | | |Judgement. | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |8 |The proposal, |Submitted on| | | | | |known as "Proposal|Thu Apr 10, | | | | | |3", Submitted on |2003 at | | | | | |Thursday, the 10th|11:08 pm by | | | | | |of April 2003 at |Dr Ducker. | | | | | |10:16pm by |Assigned to | | | | | |unlin_e, was |Cassie for | | | | | |submitted |Judgement. | | | | | |illegally under | | | | | | |Rule 1.1 . | | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |9 |Rule 7.3 did not |Submitted on| | | | | |destroy any |Fri Apr 11, | | | | | |points upon Josh's|2003 at 3:39| | | | | |deregistration of |am by Craig.| | | | | |April 10, 2003, as|Assigned to | | | | | |there was nothing |unlin_e for | | | | | |to |Judgement. | | | | | |destroy. | | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |10|Rule 7.3 decreased|Submitted on|TRUE | | | | |the number |Fri Apr 11, |It decreased his| | | | |of points in the |2003 at 3:39|points by one, | | | | |game by 1 upon |am by Craig.|making his | | | | |Josh's |Assigned to |points negative.| | | | |deregistration. A |bd for |This was then | | | | |random player must|Judgement. |distributed | | | | |therefore receive | |randomly. | | | | |a negative number | | | | | | |of points. | | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |11|When a proposal |Submitted on|FALSE |bd:FALSE | | | |creates a rule |Sat Apr 12, |The sole purpose|Cassie: | | | |which declares a |2003 at 2:00|of the action |unlin_e:FALSE | | | |Thing to exist, |pm by Craig.|which has | | | | |the proposal is |Assigned to |instigated this | | | | |not seen as |Dr Ducker |Call for | | | | |directly creating |for |Judgement is to | | | | |that Thing for the|Judgement. |create a | | | | |purposes of the |Apealled on |singular new | | | | |First Sacred Law. |Sun Apr 13, |Thing (The | | | | | |2003 at 2:45|office of the | | | | | |pm by Craig.|Stenotype), | | | | | |Assigned to |therefore its | | | | | |bd, Cassie, |creation would | | | | | |and unlin_e |be a direct | | | | | |for |result of the | | | | | |Appellate |passing of the | | | | | |Judgement. |proposal | | | | | | |containing said | | | | | | |action. If the | | | | | | |action in | | | | | | |question had | | | | | | |specified a | | | | | | |conditional, | | | | | | |even one that | | | | | | |was satisfied at| | | | | | |the time of the | | | | | | |containing | | | | | | |proposals | | | | | | |passage, then | | | | | | |the creation of | | | | | | |the office would| | | | | | |not have been a | | | | | | |direct result of| | | | | | |the proposals | | | | | | |passage. Even | | | | | | |something as | | | | | | |simple as: | | | | | | |" | | | | | | |Rule 10.5 is | | | | | | |created in the | | | | | | |group OFFICES, | | | | | | |reading: | | | | | | |At the time of | | | | | | |this rules | | | | | | |creation, a new | | | | | | |office known as | | | | | | |the Stenotype is| | | | | | |created, whose | | | | | | |possessor, the | | | | | | |Stenographer, is| | | | | | |responsible for | | | | | | |tracking all | | | | | | |past judgements | | | | | | |and for | | | | | | |assigning Judges| | | | | | |and Appelate | | | | | | |Justices. | | | | | | |" | | | | | | | | | | | | | |This would also | | | | | | |separate the | | | | | | |office from its | | | | | | |creating rule | | | | | | |for SSL | | | | | | |purposes. But, | | | | | | |be careful with | | | | | | |needing to | | | | | | |modify the | | | | | | |office later, | | | | | | |10.5 should not | | | | | | |be destroyed and| | | | | | |re-created with | | | | | | |the same initial| | | | | | |phrase, as that | | | | | | |would create a | | | | | | |second | | | | | | |Stenotype, | | | | | | |rather, a new | | | | | | |rule would need | | | | | | |to be added with| | | | | | |the appropriate | | | | | | |modifications | | | | | | |contained within| | | | | | |it. | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |12| | | | | | |--+------------------+------------+----------------+--------------+-----| |13| | | | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------628BD9199A2AA89FA51C26FB-- From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 15:31:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 22:31:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 14615 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 22:30:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 22:30:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 22:30:53 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9A03270250; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:30:56 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:30:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E9DC5A3.BBDA9857@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> On the appeal of CFJ 7, the illegality of Proposal 1, I have a >> question for the caller. IMO, if the CFJ is intended to mean that a >> TSL violation makes the proposal non-pending, it is TRUE. If the CFJ >> is intended to mean that the proposal was not submitted because of >> its TSL violation, I believe it is FALSE. I hereby ask the caller for >> clarification. >If I understand your question, it seems to revolve around the phrase "submitted illegally". >Obviously the proposal was submitted, we wouldn't be able to have this discussion on it >otherwise. So that leaves the term "illegally", to be be at issue. Essentially what I was >asking for was a round-about way of defining what is or isn't "illegal". So the Judgement is >left to your interpretation of "illegally". In that case, since its non-pending status is declared in the rules already, I will judge that the proposal was legally submitted but non-pending, so it is false. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 16 16:10:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 23:10:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 90522 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:10:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 23:10:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:10:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 21338 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:10:14 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:10:14 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3GNAD912028 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:10:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9DD5C0.D98B1979@u...> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:14:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> On the appeal of CFJ 7, the illegality of Proposal 1, I have a > >> question for the caller. IMO, if the CFJ is intended to mean that a > >> TSL violation makes the proposal non-pending, it is TRUE. If the CFJ > >> is intended to mean that the proposal was not submitted because of > >> its TSL violation, I believe it is FALSE. I hereby ask the caller for > >> clarification. > > >If I understand your question, it seems to revolve around the phrase > "submitted illegally". > >Obviously the proposal was submitted, we wouldn't be able to have this > discussion on it > >otherwise. So that leaves the term "illegally", to be be at issue. > Essentially what I was > >asking for was a round-about way of defining what is or isn't "illegal". > So the Judgement is > >left to your interpretation of "illegally". > > In that case, since its non-pending status is declared in the rules already, > I will judge that the proposal was legally submitted but non-pending, so it > is false. > This judgement then raises another point, if the proposal was submitted legally under rule 1.1, then what is it that renders the proposal non-pending? According to rule 5.2, where "pending" is defined, a proposal must meet three criteria for being considered pending: submitted to the mailing list. Yup, that's obvious. not expired. Yup, not yet expired. obeys the TSLs. Uh, other than rule 1.1, which this CFJ is in relation to, what TSL is violated? If none, then shouldn't we be voting on the proposal in question? It strikes me that the confusion may be related to the exact text of rule 1.1. "No proposal may be _submitted_" is the first phrase in rule 1.1 (emphasis mine). However "Proposal 1" WAS submitted, as seems to be pattently obvious by it's existence within the mailing list. If it has already been submitted then whether or not rule 1.1 still has any effect on the proposal is what will determine if the proposal is pending, thus the determination of the "legal" stature of the proposal, as well, whether rule 1.1 is impotent or not is what is also at stake here. If a proposal which has already been submitted can still be in violation of rule 1.1, by being considered to be "illegally submitted" under it, then rule 1.1 can have the full force of law which I believe it deserves. If a proposal which has already been submitted is not still in violation of rule 1.1, then rule 1.1 is useless, and should probably be destroyed as quickly as possible. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 16:23:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 23:23:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 58983 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 23:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:23:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A60A2110286; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:23:54 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:23:56 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E9DD5C0.D98B1979@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >It strikes me that the confusion may be related to the exact text of rule 1.1. "No proposal may >be _submitted_" is the first phrase in rule 1.1 (emphasis mine). However "Proposal 1" WAS >submitted, as seems to be pattently obvious by it's existence within the mailing list. If it >has already been submitted then whether or not rule 1.1 still has any effect on the proposal is >what will determine if the proposal is pending, thus the determination of the "legal" stature of >the proposal, as well, whether rule 1.1 is impotent or not is what is also at stake here. If a >proposal which has already been submitted can still be in violation of rule 1.1, by being >considered to be "illegally submitted" under it, then rule 1.1 can have the full force of law >which I believe it deserves. If a proposal which has already been submitted is not still in >violation of rule 1.1, then rule 1.1 is useless, and should probably be destroyed as quickly as >possible. Given the above, I change my appelate judgement to TRUE. I further suggest that we draft an alternate wording for rule 1.1. From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 16 16:37:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 23:37:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 14728 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:37:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 23:37:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:37:51 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BC8B414E205; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:36:34 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:36:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304161936.33588.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 16 April 2003 07:23 pm, Craig wrote: > >It strikes me that the confusion may be related to the exact text of rul= e > > 1.1. "No proposal may > > >be _submitted_" is the first phrase in rule 1.1 (emphasis mine). Howeve= r > > "Proposal 1" WAS > > >submitted, as seems to be pattently obvious by it's existence within the > > mailing list. If it > > >has already been submitted then whether or not rule 1.1 still has any > > effect on the proposal is > > >what will determine if the proposal is pending, thus the determination o= f > > the "legal" stature of > > >the proposal, as well, whether rule 1.1 is impotent or not is what is al= so > > at stake here. If a > > >proposal which has already been submitted can still be in violation of > > rule > > 1.1, by being > > >considered to be "illegally submitted" under it, then rule 1.1 can have > > the > > full force of law > > >which I believe it deserves. If a proposal which has already been > > submitted is not still in > > >violation of rule 1.1, then rule 1.1 is useless, and should probably be > > destroyed as quickly as > > >possible. > > Given the above, I change my appelate judgement to TRUE. I further sugges= t > that we draft an alternate wording for rule 1.1. Me too, if I'm a judge... - --=20 bd Nemo me impune lacessit. [No one provokes me with impunity] -- Motto of the Crown of Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+nekBx533NjVSos4RArbDAJ4xQGKavRPnSxE8XDwMHKZDujAkCwCcDoMO EdrYPc0JFAAostXrOI4mKNU=3D =3DjJYV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Wed Apr 16 16:47:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 23:47:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 27789 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 23:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:47:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 1220 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:47:47 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:47:47 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3GNllp25176 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:47:47 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E9DDE8F.4C018F80@u...> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:51:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File References: <200304161936.33588.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > > Me too, if I'm a judge... ROTFL. The sequence for this CFJ: I cast the original CFJ. bd, you were assigned as Judge, and ruled FALSE. I therefore appealed; Cassie, Craig and unlin_e were assigned as appellate justices. Neither Cassie, nor unlin_e has rendered their judgment at this time. This current round of discussion has been in regard to Craig's APPELLATE judgement. So bd, if you're changing your judgement, then I'm removing my appeal. Though I'm not entirely sure that all of this is possible. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 16:58:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 16 Apr 2003 23:58:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 17944 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2003 23:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Apr 2003 23:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2003 23:58:16 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE1C3580250; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:20 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3E9DDE8F.4C018F80@u...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Me too, if I'm a judge... >ROTFL. >The sequence for this CFJ: >I cast the original CFJ. >bd, you were assigned as Judge, and ruled FALSE. >I therefore appealed; Cassie, Craig and unlin_e were assigned as appellate justices. >Neither Cassie, nor unlin_e has rendered their judgment at this time. >This current round of discussion has been in regard to Craig's APPELLATE judgement. >So bd, if you're changing your judgement, then I'm removing my appeal. Though I'm not entirely >sure that all of this is possible. Allow me to quote rule 4.4, which exists in some form in almost all Nomic games: "Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted." From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 16 17:22:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 00:22:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 58203 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 00:22:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 00:22:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 00:22:19 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3H0MHjx068628 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:22:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416190908.022f29c0@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:21:33 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File In-Reply-To: References: <3E9DDE8F.4C018F80@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan > >> Me too, if I'm a judge... > > >ROTFL. > > >The sequence for this CFJ: > > >I cast the original CFJ. > > >bd, you were assigned as Judge, and ruled FALSE. > > >I therefore appealed; Cassie, Craig and unlin_e were assigned as appellate >justices. > > >Neither Cassie, nor unlin_e has rendered their judgment at this time. > > >This current round of discussion has been in regard to Craig's APPELLATE >judgement. > > >So bd, if you're changing your judgement, then I'm removing my appeal. >Though I'm not entirely > >sure that all of this is possible. > >Allow me to quote rule 4.4, which exists in some form in almost all Nomic >games: "Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted." Rule 4.4 also permits me to proclaim myself Emperor of Thermodynomic, even though I am not currently a player. This does not mean that such an announcement would have any legal effect whatsoever. I think the important rules here are 11.4 and 11.5: 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. As a side note, I think that 11.5 is dangerous, since it does not specify which statement is binding and could easily be taken to mean any statement made by anybody who happens to be a Judge. But assuming for the time being that it refers to the message described in 11.4, we must conclude that bd's original judgement was binding. Nothing has since happened to change this. If you determine that bd's new judgement is also binding, then you have committed yourselves to obeying both a true and a false judgement on the same statement. Fortunately, I think it is relatively easy to decide that the phrase "a message" indicates that only the first such message is valid. A similar argument can probably be made for appellate judgements. From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 16 17:30:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 00:30:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 79459 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 00:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 00:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 00:30:04 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3H0U2jx075327 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:30:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416192617.022f7740@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:29:18 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File In-Reply-To: <3E9DD5C0.D98B1979@u...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 05:14 PM 4/16/03, Dr. Ducker wrote: > >If a >proposal which has already been submitted can still be in violation of >rule 1.1, by being >considered to be "illegally submitted" under it, then rule 1.1 can have >the full force of law >which I believe it deserves. If a proposal which has already been >submitted is not still in >violation of rule 1.1, then rule 1.1 is useless, and should probably be >destroyed as quickly as >possible. I don't think that it should be destroyed in the latter case. Rather, it simply means that we need a penalty system for enforcing the illegality of prohibited actions. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 17:38:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 00:38:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 75597 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 00:38:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 00:38:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 00:38:14 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7793A40250; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:38:17 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:38:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416190908.022f29c0@m...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> Me too, if I'm a judge... >> >> >ROTFL. >> >> >The sequence for this CFJ: >> >> >I cast the original CFJ. >> >> >bd, you were assigned as Judge, and ruled FALSE. >> >> >I therefore appealed; Cassie, Craig and unlin_e were assigned as appellate >>justices. >> >> >Neither Cassie, nor unlin_e has rendered their judgment at this time. >> >> >This current round of discussion has been in regard to Craig's APPELLATE >>judgement. >> >> >So bd, if you're changing your judgement, then I'm removing my appeal. >>Though I'm not entirely >> >sure that all of this is possible. >> >>Allow me to quote rule 4.4, which exists in some form in almost all Nomic >>games: "Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted." >Rule 4.4 also permits me to proclaim myself Emperor of Thermodynomic, even >though I am not currently a player. This does not mean that such an >announcement would have any legal effect whatsoever. Sure. And the powers of the Emperor are, um, nothing whatsoever. So now you're emperor if you want, and I don't care! >I think the important rules here are 11.4 and 11.5: >11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating >whether ey judges it to be true or false. >11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. >As a side note, I think that 11.5 is dangerous, since it does not specify >which statement is binding and could easily be taken to mean any statement >made by anybody who happens to be a Judge. But assuming for the time being >that it refers to the message described in 11.4, we must conclude that bd's >original judgement was binding. Nothing has since happened to change this. >If you determine that bd's new judgement is also binding, then you have >committed yourselves to obeying both a true and a false judgement on the >same statement. Fortunately, I think it is relatively easy to decide that >the phrase "a message" indicates that only the first such message is valid. >A similar argument can probably be made for appellate judgements. Ah, root. I remember you from my Agora days, back when I had time. In Agora, which takes itself far more seriously, you are absolutely right. A judge would abuse your interpretation of 11.5 to make emself a nice little fountain or something, and the rule would then be fixed. bd and I would be unable to change our minds. In Thermo, which has no tradition of this level of nitpicking (because it isn't stable enough yet; not because we wouldn't enjoy it - me, at least), it is clear that 11.5 ought to refer to 11.4, and it is clear that I intend to chagne my judgement. So far, what this has meant for this game is, you guessed it, MORE CFJ'S! Therefore, I submit the following four CFJ's: 1. The statement of the judge in rule 11.5 refers only to the one which delivers judgement. 2a. A judge whose judgement has not been appealed may reverse eir judgement. 2b. A judge whose judgement has been appealed may reverse eir judgement until all three appelate justices have returned a verdict. 3. An appelate justice may reverse eir judgement until all three appelate justices have returned a verdict. Now, some judges: 1. Dr Ducker. 2a. bd. 2b. bd. 3. unlin_e. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 17:40:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 00:40:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 77640 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 00:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 00:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 00:40:08 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7ED5643006E; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:40:13 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:40:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416192617.022f7740@m...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>If a >>proposal which has already been submitted can still be in violation of >>rule 1.1, by being >>considered to be "illegally submitted" under it, then rule 1.1 can have >>the full force of law >>which I believe it deserves. If a proposal which has already been >>submitted is not still in >>violation of rule 1.1, then rule 1.1 is useless, and should probably be >>destroyed as quickly as >>possible. >I don't think that it should be destroyed in the latter case. Rather, it >simply means that we need a penalty system for enforcing the illegality >of prohibited actions. Sometime when the game has stablized, I'm thinking about an economy. I've already been brainstorming some possible ways to this; if anyone wants in on my brainstorming sessions let me know. One idea I've already had includes penalizing people who break the rules by random redistribution of some or all of their money. Another possibility is to destroy it, but we've got to keep our Things in the game whenever possible. From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 16 18:01:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 01:01:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 85497 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 01:01:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 01:01:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 01:01:22 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D6AAB14E219; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:00:05 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:00:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304162100.04566.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 16 April 2003 08:38 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >> Me too, if I'm a judge... > >> > > >> >ROTFL. > >> > > >> >The sequence for this CFJ: > >> > > >> >I cast the original CFJ. > >> > > >> >bd, you were assigned as Judge, and ruled FALSE. > >> > > >> >I therefore appealed; Cassie, Craig and unlin_e were assigned as > > appellate > > >>justices. > >> > >> >Neither Cassie, nor unlin_e has rendered their judgment at this time. > >> > > >> >This current round of discussion has been in regard to Craig's > >> > APPELLATE > >> > >>judgement. > >> > >> >So bd, if you're changing your judgement, then I'm removing my appeal= . > >> > >>Though I'm not entirely > >> > >> >sure that all of this is possible. > >> > >>Allow me to quote rule 4.4, which exists in some form in almost all Nom= ic > >>games: "Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted." > > > >Rule 4.4 also permits me to proclaim myself Emperor of Thermodynomic, ev= en > >though I am not currently a player. This does not mean that such an > >announcement would have any legal effect whatsoever. > > Sure. And the powers of the Emperor are, um, nothing whatsoever. So now > you're emperor if you want, and I don't care! > > >I think the important rules here are 11.4 and 11.5: > > > >11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating > >whether ey judges it to be true or false. > > > >11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. > > > >As a side note, I think that 11.5 is dangerous, since it does not specif= y > >which statement is binding and could easily be taken to mean any stateme= nt > >made by anybody who happens to be a Judge. But assuming for the time > > being that it refers to the message described in 11.4, we must conclude > > that bd's original judgement was binding. Nothing has since happened t= o > > change this. If you determine that bd's new judgement is also binding, > > then you have committed yourselves to obeying both a true and a false > > judgement on the same statement. Fortunately, I think it is relatively > > easy to decide that the phrase "a message" indicates that only the firs= t > > such message is valid. > > > >A similar argument can probably be made for appellate judgements. > > Ah, root. I remember you from my Agora days, back when I had time. In > Agora, which takes itself far more seriously, you are absolutely right. A > judge would abuse your interpretation of 11.5 to make emself a nice littl= e > fountain or something, and the rule would then be fixed. bd and I would b= e > unable to change our minds. In Thermo, which has no tradition of this lev= el > of nitpicking (because it isn't stable enough yet; not because we wouldn'= t > enjoy it - me, at least), it is clear that 11.5 ought to refer to 11.4, a= nd > it is clear that I intend to chagne my judgement. So far, what this has > meant for this game is, you guessed it, MORE CFJ'S! Therefore, I submit t= he > following four CFJ's: > > 1. The statement of the judge in rule 11.5 refers only to the one which > delivers judgement. > 2a. A judge whose judgement has not been appealed may reverse eir > judgement. 2b. A judge whose judgement has been appealed may reverse eir > judgement until all three appelate justices have returned a verdict. > 3. An appelate justice may reverse eir judgement until all three appelat= e > justices have returned a verdict. > > Now, some judges: 1. Dr Ducker. 2a. bd. 2b. bd. 3. unlin_e. 2a, 2b: FALSE. This is mostly to prevent any kind of precedent. Of course, what happens if= I=20 reverse this judgement? ;) - --=20 bd Men freely believe that what they wish to desire. -- Julius Caesar -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+nfyUx533NjVSos4RAkWjAKDSO0F0bDo5Mdf67nbOvUp79NYq7QCgq8WW SeypE+leEu215WkeHzCNzhA=3D =3D40eI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 16 18:02:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 01:02:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 45675 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 01:02:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 01:02:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 01:02:08 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3742B14E219; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:00:52 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:00:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304162100.51344.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 16 April 2003 08:40 pm, Craig wrote: > >>If a > >>proposal which has already been submitted can still be in violation of > >>rule 1.1, by being > >>considered to be "illegally submitted" under it, then rule 1.1 can have > >>the full force of law > >>which I believe it deserves. If a proposal which has already been > >>submitted is not still in > >>violation of rule 1.1, then rule 1.1 is useless, and should probably be > >>destroyed as quickly as > >>possible. > > > >I don't think that it should be destroyed in the latter case. Rather, i= t > >simply means that we need a penalty system for enforcing the illegality > >of prohibited actions. > > Sometime when the game has stablized, I'm thinking about an economy. I've > already been brainstorming some possible ways to this; if anyone wants in > on my brainstorming sessions let me know. One idea I've already had > includes penalizing people who break the rules by random redistribution o= f > some or all of their money. Another possibility is to destroy it, but we'= ve > got to keep our Things in the game whenever possible. Neat. Maybe some inter-nomic trading? B Nomic is interested in setting up=20 links, and they have Entropy there, too (granted, it gets reset when it hit= s=20 a certain threshold..) - --=20 bd Pity the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. -- Don Marquis -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+nfzDx533NjVSos4RAtXNAKCUiyyMRa0NrwcDyARsCtV7R0TrsACgkaK9 viVodTQlJwfPchC1Yvid22Y=3D =3DnU3g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 16 18:23:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 01:23:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 72324 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 01:23:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 01:23:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 01:23:03 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3H1N1jx023382 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:23:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416195006.01d92ec0@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:17 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416190908.022f29c0@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan > >Rule 4.4 also permits me to proclaim myself Emperor of Thermodynomic, even > >though I am not currently a player. This does not mean that such an > >announcement would have any legal effect whatsoever. > >Sure. And the powers of the Emperor are, um, nothing whatsoever. So now >you're emperor if you want, and I don't care! Declaring myself emperor was just an example. The point is a general one. Assuming for the moment that Thermo did define an Emperor position, it would be an unworkable interpretation of 4.4 that would allow me to assume it by declaration simply because it wasn't explicitly prohibited elsewhere. Granted, this would probably be prohibited by 6.5 anyway, but most nomics don't have an analog of 6.5. It would be naive to presume that the Thermo version of Immutable 116 is somehow more powerful than the same rule in other nomics. In the same way that I can't simply declare myself Emperor, you can't simply declare that a previous action was invalid because you have since changed your mind. Now, if you decide that 11.4 should be interpreted flexibly enough to allow retraction of judgements, then that is another matter and has nothing to do with Rule 4.4. Ian Kelly From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 18:45:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 01:45:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 1363 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 01:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 01:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 01:45:47 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A75038B0290; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:45:52 -0400 To: Subject: ATTN unlin_e Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:45:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl unlin_e, if you do not post within two days, you will deregister. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 19:33:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 02:33:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 65850 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 02:33:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 02:33:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 02:33:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A275800022E; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:33:25 -0400 To: Subject: Dr Ducker::1 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:33:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl The proposal Dr Ducker::1 expires tomorrow. There have been two votes and an abstention on it. Because the votes are split, it will fail even though voting could make it pass. Cassie or unlin_e, vote before it is too late! Other proposals which expire tomorrow have pre-knowable outcomes, so votes on them are unimportant. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 19:34:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 02:34:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 86494 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 02:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 02:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 02:34:17 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2AE579E006E; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:34:22 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:34:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416195006.01d92ec0@m...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Granted, this would probably be prohibited by 6.5 anyway, but most nomics >don't have an analog of 6.5. It would be naive to presume that the Thermo 6.5 is written such that it is harsher than it was intended to be. Any fixes? From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 16 20:04:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 03:04:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 78448 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 03:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 03:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 03:04:30 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3H34SGG032639 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:04:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416215722.01d86260@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:03:43 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416195006.01d92ec0@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 09:34 PM 4/16/03, Craig wrote: > >Granted, this would probably be prohibited by 6.5 anyway, but most nomics > >don't have an analog of 6.5. It would be naive to presume that the Thermo > >6.5 is written such that it is harsher than it was intended to be. Any >fixes? I don't feel that it is overly harsh, merely that it is unnecessary, in the same way that many view "Players must obey the rules" as unnecessary. By implicit meta-game agreement, the ruleset's nature is to define the gamestate and how it may be changed. How then could a change be introduced from a source external to the ruleset? Even if such a change could be introduced, then the ruleset would be non-absolute, and in that situation, how much power would 6.5 wield anyway? Ian From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 16 20:09:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 03:09:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 25304 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 03:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 03:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 03:08:59 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAD06B5025C; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:09:04 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:09:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416215722.01d86260@m...> Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >Granted, this would probably be prohibited by 6.5 anyway, but most nomics >> >don't have an analog of 6.5. It would be naive to presume that the Thermo >> >>6.5 is written such that it is harsher than it was intended to be. Any >>fixes? >I don't feel that it is overly harsh, merely that it is unnecessary, in the >same way that many view "Players must obey the rules" as unnecessary. By >implicit meta-game agreement, the ruleset's nature is to define the >gamestate and how it may be changed. How then could a change be introduced >from a source external to the ruleset? Even if such a change could be >introduced, then the ruleset would be non-absolute, and in that situation, >how much power would 6.5 wield anyway? The rule was intended to stop the rules from being changed arbitrarily. However, it appears to stop you from doing all sorts of things. For instance, if I wish to give away the Office of the Speaker,I for one have been assuming that I can simply do so. But, on rereading 6.5, I'm not sure I can. That needs fixing. From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 16 20:31:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 03:31:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 45992 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 03:31:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 03:31:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 03:31:21 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3H3VJGG057959 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:31:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416222331.01d84ba0@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:30:34 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030416215722.01d86260@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 10:09 PM 4/16/03, Craig wrote: > >> >Granted, this would probably be prohibited by 6.5 anyway, but most >nomics > >> >don't have an analog of 6.5. It would be naive to presume that the >Thermo > >> > >>6.5 is written such that it is harsher than it was intended to be. Any > >>fixes? > > >I don't feel that it is overly harsh, merely that it is unnecessary, in the > >same way that many view "Players must obey the rules" as unnecessary. By > >implicit meta-game agreement, the ruleset's nature is to define the > >gamestate and how it may be changed. How then could a change be introduced > >from a source external to the ruleset? Even if such a change could be > >introduced, then the ruleset would be non-absolute, and in that situation, > >how much power would 6.5 wield anyway? > >The rule was intended to stop the rules from being changed arbitrarily. >However, it appears to stop you from doing all sorts of things. For >instance, if I wish to give away the Office of the Speaker,I for one have >been assuming that I can simply do so. But, on rereading 6.5, I'm not sure I >can. That needs fixing. I think you're looking for something like Immutable 116: Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it. Although I would tend to argue that even without 6.5 you would not be able to give away the office of speaker, and that even if you could, it could just as easily be taken away from you by bd and given to Cassie, or to the collective population of France, via the same mechanism. Then again, as you point out, my views are highly adapted to Agora. Perhaps others see things differently. Ian From drduck@u... Thu Apr 17 02:09:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 19189 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 18481 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 09:09:11 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3H99BW30373 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:09:11 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9E622D.C2938957@u...> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:13:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File References: <3E9DDE8F.4C018F80@u...> <5.2.1.1.0.20030416190908.022f29c0@m...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > > I think the important rules here are 11.4 and 11.5: I agree > > 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it > to be true or false. > > 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. So, what does "statement" refer to, and what does "binding" mean? Note, also that the ruling was appealed, and therefore wasn't binding... ;) > As a side note, I think that 11.5 is dangerous, since it does not specify which statement is > binding and could easily be taken to mean any statement made by anybody who happens to be a > Judge. Yes, there is some validity to this, and this ambiguity should be worked out, however I think the most important aspect is what is meant by "binding". It seems that people have been considering that the statements of Judges and Appellate Justices (AJs) will in some way become part of the rules, when, if you read rule 13.0 carefully, you'll see that only the Call for Judgement will be added to the ruleset, not the comments or rationale of the judges and AJs, not the debate surrounding the CFJ, just the text of the CFJ itself. Thus 11.5 is NOT all that dangerous, as it doesn't mean that a Judge's arbitrary statements will gain the force of law. The only part of the judicial system that has any possiblity of gaining the power of a rule, is the actual text of the CFJ in question, and then only if the final decision is TRUE. > But assuming for the time being that it refers to the message described in 11.4, we must > conclude that bd's original judgement was binding. Nothing has since happened to change this. Actually, the fact that the judgement was appealed changes that. > If you determine that bd's new judgement is also binding, then you have committed yourselves > to obeying both a true and a false judgement on the same statement. Since it was appealed the original statement is no longer binding, thus bd's change of heart _could_ be binding, assuming I can retract my appeal. > Fortunately, I think it is relatively easy to decide that the phrase "a message" indicates > that only the first such message is valid. Hmmm, I think you might have it there... Okay, here's my take on it: 1) only bd's first message, where e rendered a FALSE judgement could be binding, and therefore, 2) it is the only portion of this CFJ process that e can play a direct part, and therefore, 3) bd's change of heart has no bearing on the proceedings, except as an argument for those AJs who have yet to announce eir judgements to do so in favor of the CFJ (eg return a TRUE judgement), and therefore, 4) this CFJ is still under Appeal, awaiting the rulings of Cassie and unlin_e. We still haven't resolved whether or not an Appeal can be retracted, but that seems pretty minor considering. > > > A similar argument can probably be made for appellate judgements. > Actually, I disagree. According to rule (4 pi), what is binding is "The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices", thus until a majority has been reached, none of an Appellate Justice's announcements are binding in any way (which means to me that the first AJ can change their mind all they want until a second AJ makes their announcement, then if the two announcements are in agreement it's binding, other wise the first two AJs have one final change in which to reach agreement, unless the third AJ makes their announcement). Also, note that the ONLY thing that is binding under an Appeal is the decision itself, while under an initial Judgement, the statement is. However we still haven't really determined what "binding" means... From drduck@u... Thu Apr 17 02:15:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 87441 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 18924 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 09:15:16 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3H9FFW31364 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:15:15 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9E639B.1F3E59A1@u...> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:19:39 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposals File References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > 1. The statement of the judge in rule 11.5 refers only to the one which > delivers judgement. > 2a. A judge whose judgement has not been appealed may reverse eir judgement. > 2b. A judge whose judgement has been appealed may reverse eir judgement > until all three appelate justices have returned a verdict. > 3. An appelate justice may reverse eir judgement until all three appelate > justices have returned a verdict. > > Now, some judges: 1. Dr Ducker. 2a. bd. 2b. bd. 3. unlin_e. > > 1. The statement of the judge in rule 11.5 refers only to the one which delivers judgement. I'm afraid that as stated there is simply too much ambiguity in this for me to in good conscience return anything but a FALSE judgement. It isn't clear to me whether the "one" in this CFJ referrs to the statement, the Judge, or the email message containing the judgement, or perhaps somethig else entirely. Thus I judge this CFJ to FALSE. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 17 04:08:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 56813 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 28138 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3HB8dJ00710 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 04:08:39 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3E9E7E31.586454BF@u...> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:13:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Just checking the time Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 feel free to ignore this message From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 17 08:40:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 15:40:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 10739 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 15:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 15:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 15:40:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 2003 15:40:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:40:12 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: A few expirations Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 466 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Technically, none of the following is true for ten to thirteen hours, but, as of today/late tonight: bd's untitled proposal has passed. Rule 7.3 now reads "When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir points and things are distributed randomly between all other players." Craig's Proposal 2 has failed. Dr Ducker's "Dr Ducker::1" fails, unless in the next twelve hours a FOR vote is cast by either Cassie or unlin_e. There is Josh. From unlin_e@y... Thu Apr 17 11:29:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 18:29:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 42122 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 18:29:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 18:29:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11404.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.234) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 18:29:46 -0000 Message-ID: <20030417182946.65952.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:29:46 PDT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e > > 1. The statement of the judge in rule 11.5 refers only to the one which > delivers judgement. > 2a. A judge whose judgement has not been appealed may reverse eir judgement. > 2b. A judge whose judgement has been appealed may reverse eir judgement > until all three appelate justices have returned a verdict. > 3. An appelate justice may reverse eir judgement until all three appelate > justices have returned a verdict. > > Now, some judges: 1. Dr Ducker. 2a. bd. 2b. bd. 3. unlin_e. > > unlin_e judges 3 to be FALSE. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From unlin_e@y... Thu Apr 17 11:35:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 18:35:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 24109 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 18:35:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 18:35:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 18:35:26 -0000 Message-ID: <20030417183522.50176.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:35:22 PDT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] A few expirations To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- kreig_daniyl wrote: > Technically, none of the following is true for ten to thirteen hours, > but, as of today/late tonight: > > bd's untitled proposal has passed. Rule 7.3 now reads "When a player > deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir points and > things are distributed randomly between all other players." > > Craig's Proposal 2 has failed. > > Dr Ducker's "Dr Ducker::1" fails, unless in the next twelve hours a > FOR vote is cast by either Cassie or unlin_e. Well, unlin_e is hereby AGAINST it, anyway. > There is Josh. > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From drduck@u... Thu Apr 17 15:35:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 17 Apr 2003 22:34:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 78289 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 22:34:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2003 22:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 22:34:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 5487 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2003 22:34:57 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 2003 22:34:57 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3HMYvv02182 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:34:57 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3E9F1F18.360A19A5@u...> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:39:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: time check Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Please ignore From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 17 19:04:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 02:04:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 26455 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 02:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 02:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 02:04:17 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD25DBE027C; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:04:21 -0400 To: Subject: Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:04:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I have observed that most stable Nomics have some sort of economy. Therefore, I suspect that having an economy might help long-term to stablize Thermo. Now, there is no difference rule-wise between Points and Kudoses. Both are Things, and both do absolutely nothing. The only distinction is that although it is difficult, you can get new Points created without a proposal to create them. Therefore, I suggest that we merge the two, and to encourage economic growth we call the unified currency Coins. I suspect that such a name would encourage people to think of them as Thermo's money. We also have to modify 6.5 so that it doesn't prevent us from spending our money, and we must then give people Coins to spend so that there will be an incentive to write proposals which use them. Since the rule that I suggest that gives out Coins increases the number of Things in a regular fashion, I'm suggesting it go in the First Sacred Law. This idea also requires other minor rewrites to the TSLs, so I request that those who simply want to cast a dissenting vote remember that on such a proposal an abstention has that effect; those who wish to veto it of course should speak up before it becomes official so that we don't waste our time on this. Rule 9.1 is repealed, and a new rule 9.1 is put in its place reading "Rules, players, proposals, offices, points, kudoses, and Coins are Things." A point is created in bd's posession, bringing eir total up to zero. A Coin of bd's is destroyed, bringing eir total down to -1. For every Kudos or Point in existence, a Coin is created in the posession of the same player. Every Kudos and every Point is destroyed. Rule 9.1 is repealed, and a new rule 9.1 is put in its place reading "Rules, players, proposals, offices, and coins are Things." Rule 7.3 is repealed, and a new rule 7.3 is put in its place reading "When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players." Rule 1.3 is repealed, and a new rule 1.3 is put in its place reading "Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of Therms is set to zero." Rule 2.1 is repealed, and a new rule 2.1 is put in its place reading "Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes." Rule 6.5 is repealed, and a new rule 6.5 is put in its place reading "No changes to the ruleset may occur except as defined in the ruleset, nor may Things be created or destroyed except as specified in the ruleset." Rule 1.5 is created, reading "Every week, one Coin is created in the posession of each player." The comment for the First Sacred Law is changed to read "These rules impose limits on the increase of Things in the game, leading to the more restricted style of Thermo." This proposal is destroyed. So, any comments? From kellyia@e... Thu Apr 17 20:06:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 03:06:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 24984 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 03:06:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 03:06:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 03:06:01 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3I35xGG010503 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:06:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417214232.01d80d50@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:03:46 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 09:04 PM 4/17/03, Craig wrote: > >Rule 9.1 is repealed, and a new rule 9.1 is put in its place reading "Rules, >players, proposals, offices, points, kudoses, and Coins are Things." >A point is created in bd's posession, bringing eir total up to zero. >A Coin of bd's is destroyed, bringing eir total down to -1. >For every Kudos or Point in existence, a Coin is created in the posession of >the same player. >Every Kudos and every Point is destroyed. >Rule 9.1 is repealed, and a new rule 9.1 is put in its place reading "Rules, >players, proposals, offices, and coins are Things." >Rule 7.3 is repealed, and a new rule 7.3 is put in its place reading "When a >player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are >distributed randomly between all other players." >Rule 1.3 is repealed, and a new rule 1.3 is put in its place reading >"Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of >players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of ^^^^^ I think you missed a substitution here. >Therms is set to zero." >Rule 2.1 is repealed, and a new rule 2.1 is put in its place reading "Any >player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things >recieves a Coin if that proposal passes." >Rule 6.5 is repealed, and a new rule 6.5 is put in its place reading "No >changes to the ruleset may occur except as defined in the ruleset, nor may >Things be created or destroyed except as specified in the ruleset." >Rule 1.5 is created, reading "Every week, one Coin is created in the >posession of each player." Isn't the proposed 1.5 contrary to the entropic theme of Thermo? >The comment for the First Sacred Law is changed to read "These rules impose >limits on the increase of Things in the game, leading to the more restricted >style of Thermo." >This proposal is destroyed. Cute. > > >So, any comments? I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't exist, but if bd has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... Ian From kellyia@e... Thu Apr 17 20:54:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 03:54:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 42163 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 03:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 03:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 03:54:00 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3I3rwGG053511 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:53:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:53:04 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: registration proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with the text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point shall be created in the possession of the player who possesses the proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a rule. No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just give them consecutive integers starting with 20. All expired proposals are destroyed. Rule 6.8 is created in the group "CHANGING THE GAMESTATE", reading "Immediately after a proposal expires, it is destroyed; this destruction is not considered to be a direct effect of the proposal." The number of Therms is set to forty-two. Now 9.7 says that this proposal must be possessed by a player, but 5.1 says that it belongs to me, and I'm not a player. Who owns this proposal? Does it even exist? Ian From cortex@n... Thu Apr 17 21:09:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 04:09:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 25450 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 04:09:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 04:09:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 04:09:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 8179 invoked by uid 1006); 18 Apr 2003 04:09:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:09:38 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Message-ID: <20030418000938.A7747@a...> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417214232.01d80d50@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417214232.01d80d50@m...>; from kellyia@e... on Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 10:03:46PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 10:03:46PM -0500, Ian Kelly keyboarded: > > I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't exist, but if bd > has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... Well, we could argue for the existence of anti-Things as well, and then let the number of things actually represent the difference between the number of things and the number of anti-things; so that bd has one fewer points than ey has anti-points. But that's kinda silly. Frankly, I think the judgement on that CFJ was bad. But I'm not sure if I really want to appeal it, yet. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 01:41:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 08:41:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 9435 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 08:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 08:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 08:41:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 27116 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 08:41:33 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 08:41:33 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3I8fX423294 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:41:33 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3E9FAD50.4F51F5C7@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:46:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] registration proposal References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > > For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with > the text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point > shall be created in the possession of the player who possesses > the proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the > entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a > rule. No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just > give them consecutive integers starting with 20. > > All expired proposals are destroyed. > This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this proposal will be destroyed, these proposals are all fodder for being converted into potential rules. For this reason I must vote AGAINST this proposal. > > Rule 6.8 is created in the group "CHANGING THE GAMESTATE", reading > "Immediately after a proposal expires, it is destroyed; this > destruction is not considered to be a direct effect of the > proposal." > > The number of Therms is set to forty-two. > > > Now 9.7 says that this proposal must be possessed by a player, > but 5.1 says that it belongs to me, and I'm not a player. Who > owns this proposal? Does it even exist? > > Ian > > > To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: > thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 01:52:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 08:52:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 8569 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 08:52:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 08:52:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 08:52:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 28113 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 08:52:49 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 08:52:49 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3I8qmO06424 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:52:48 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E9FAFF4.F54FE273@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:57:40 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > I have observed that most stable Nomics have some sort of economy. > Therefore, I suspect that having an economy might help long-term to stablize > Thermo. Now, there is no difference rule-wise between Points and Kudoses. > Both are Things, and both do absolutely nothing. The only distinction is > that although it is difficult, you can get new Points created without a > proposal to create them. Therefore, I suggest that we merge the two, and to > encourage economic growth we call the unified currency Coins. I suspect that > such a name would encourage people to think of them as Thermo's money. This sounds interesting, though I think we still should work out some of our procedural difficulties first. > We also have to modify 6.5 so that it doesn't prevent us from spending our money, So long as we create rules that define how to spend money, there is no need to actually change 6.5. > and we must then give people Coins to spend so that there will be an incentive to write > proposals which use them. I can more or less concede this. > Since the rule that I suggest that gives out Coins increases the number of Things in a regular > fashion, I'm suggesting it go in the First Sacred Law. I'm not sure that a regular increase is such a good idea. Why not create a "Bank" or some such, with a large number of coins, say 1,000,000,000. I think this could avoid rule 1.1, by simply having the rule which creates the coins do so 1 day after the passage of the proposal, or perhaps conditional upon when the next subsequent proposal passes. text along these lines would do the job nicely: Destroy rule 9.1 Create a new rule 9.1 under the heading THINGS with the text: Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, points, kudos, and The Bank are things. Destroy rule 9.7 Create a new rule 9.7 under the heading THINGS with the text: Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Create a group of rules headed THE BANK Create a new rule 15.0 under the heading THE BANK with the text: When the first proposal, after the creation of this rule, becomes expired, then at that time, The Bank will be created, 1,000,000,000 coins will be created in the possession of The Bank, and this rule will then be destroyed. Create a new rule 15.1 under the heading THE BANK with the text: The Bank may only possess coins, if any other type of Thing comes under the possession of The Bank, then said Thing is destroyed. > This idea also requires other minor rewrites to the TSLs, so I request that those who simply > want to cast a dissenting vote remember that on such a proposal an abstention has that effect; > those who wish to veto it of course should speak up before it becomes official so that we > don't waste our time on this. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 02:07:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 09:07:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 86485 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 09:07:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 09:07:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 09:07:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 992 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 09:07:57 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 09:07:57 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3I97vO01205 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:07:57 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E9FB381.1A5F8691@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:12:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things.] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > > > > I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: > > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. > > > > I'd also like to point out that if this proposal passes, then it will destroy Proposal 2, thus > rendering the proposal known as "the stenotype take 2" in violation of rule 1.1 . Oops sent this to the wrong place. This should fix it. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 02:08:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 09:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 91141 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 09:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 09:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 09:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 1022 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 09:08:21 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 09:08:21 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3I98KO01867 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:08:20 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3E9FB398.88733BDC@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:13:12 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things.] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > > >There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: > > > > > >1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. > > >2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. > > >3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. > > >4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e > > >5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e > > >6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker > > >7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! > > >8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig > > >9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig > > > > I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: > > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. > > > > Because ALL proposals which were submitted prior to this proposal will be expired at the time of > this proposals potential passage, and therefore will no longer be available for conversion into > new rules, I must vote AGAINST this proposal. Note that, since if both Josh, and Cassie were to > likewise vote against this proposal it would not pass, it is not purely futile to vote against > at this time. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: > > thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Oops, sent to the wrong place... From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 03:50:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 10:50:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 13876 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 10:50:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 10:50:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 10:50:16 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8666D30006E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:50:14 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things.] Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:50:30 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3E9FB398.88733BDC@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > >There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: >> > > >> > >1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. >> > >2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. >> > >3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. >> > >4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e >> > >5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e >> > >6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker >> > >7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! >> > >8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig >> > >9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig >> > >> > I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: >> > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. >> > >> >> Because ALL proposals which were submitted prior to this proposal will be expired at the time of >> this proposals potential passage, and therefore will no longer be available for conversion into >> new rules, I must vote AGAINST this proposal. Note that, since if both Josh, and Cassie were to >> likewise vote against this proposal it would not pass, it is not purely futile to vote against >> at this time. Yes, but when I wrote that comment Josh was not a player and could not vote. It is no longer the case. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 03:54:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 10:54:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 8067 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 10:54:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 10:54:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 10:54:08 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A94F1234024A; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:54:07 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 06:54:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417214232.01d80d50@m...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>players by at least five, all players recieve a point and the number of > ^^^^^ >I think you missed a substitution here. Yup. Supposed to say "Coin". >>Rule 1.5 is created, reading "Every week, one Coin is created in the >>posession of each player." >Isn't the proposed 1.5 contrary to the entropic theme of Thermo? All Nomics evolve with time. The question, if the proposed 1.5 is added, is no longer "What are you going to destroy" but "Is this proposal worth destryoing one of your Coins for?" >>This proposal is destroyed. >Cute. That's actually become fairly standard if you feel like sneaking in one created Thing. >I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't exist, but if bd >has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... Josh deregistered, destroying a point he didn't have, which got redistributed to bd. There was a CFJ on this issue. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 04:02:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 11:02:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 53300 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 11:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 11:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 11:02:04 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AB2BA080252; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:02:03 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:02:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030418000938.A7747@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't exist, but if bd >> has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... >Well, we could argue for the existence of anti-Things as well, and then >let the number of things actually represent the difference between the >number of things and the number of anti-things; so that bd has one fewer >points than ey has anti-points. Since Things have no physical manifestation, they can be negative in number. >But that's kinda silly. Frankly, I think the judgement on that CFJ was >bad. But I'm not sure if I really want to appeal it, yet. You can't; you have to convince me to do that. And you have to do so quickly; the old one becomes a rule soon. From kellyia@e... Fri Apr 18 07:05:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 14:05:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 25055 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 14:05:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 14:05:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 14:05:27 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3IE5PGG068730 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:05:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418090150.02573b00@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:04:39 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] registration proposal In-Reply-To: <3E9FAD50.4F51F5C7@u...> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 02:46 AM 4/18/03, Dr. wrote: >Ian Kelly wrote: > > > > > For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with > > the text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point > > shall be created in the possession of the player who possesses > > the proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the > > entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a > > rule. No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just > > give them consecutive integers starting with 20. > > > > All expired proposals are destroyed. > > > >This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this proposal >will be destroyed, >these proposals are all fodder for being converted into potential >rules. For this reason I must >vote AGAINST this proposal. Er, that's why they're first converted into pretty inane rules, which can be converted into more meaningful rules later on. There's a question in my mind as to whether the point created by the rule destruction counts toward the later proposals' total, but if you're worried about it, you can just destroy the rule and then destroy the point created by the destruction of the rule as well. Ian From kellyia@e... Fri Apr 18 07:37:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 14:37:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 77524 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 14:37:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 14:37:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 14:37:53 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3IEboGG096641 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:37:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:37:04 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package In-Reply-To: References: <20030418000938.A7747@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 06:02 AM 4/18/03, Craig wrote: > >> I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't exist, but if bd > >> has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... > > >Well, we could argue for the existence of anti-Things as well, and then > >let the number of things actually represent the difference between the > >number of things and the number of anti-things; so that bd has one fewer > >points than ey has anti-points. > >Since Things have no physical manifestation, they can be negative in number. It seems to me that this interpretation pretty much breaks the whole entropy thing. Since I don't really care too much whether I have a positive number of points, I'll just destroy as many as I want in order to create as many rules as I want. Or if points get replaced with Coins in such a way that it *is* desirable to have a positive number of Coins, I'll just destroy all my non-existent proposals instead. > >But that's kinda silly. Frankly, I think the judgement on that CFJ was > >bad. But I'm not sure if I really want to appeal it, yet. > >You can't; you have to convince me to do that. And you have to do so >quickly; the old one becomes a rule soon. Well, we can always repeal the rule later on. =) Ian From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 08:57:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 15:57:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 49834 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 15:57:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 15:57:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 15:57:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Apr 2003 15:57:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:57:01 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1640 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kreig_daniyl" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > > >> I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't exist, but if bd > > >> has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... > > > > >Well, we could argue for the existence of anti-Things as well, and then > > >let the number of things actually represent the difference between the > > >number of things and the number of anti-things; so that bd has one fewer > > >points than ey has anti-points. > > > >Since Things have no physical manifestation, they can be negative in number. > > It seems to me that this interpretation pretty much breaks the whole entropy > thing. Since I don't really care too much whether I have a positive number > of points, I'll just destroy as many as I want in order to create as many > rules as I want. Or if points get replaced with Coins in such a way that it > *is* desirable to have a positive number of Coins, I'll just destroy all my > non-existent proposals instead. That is an excellent point. Before it is too late for me to stop the rulification, I hereby appeal that CFJ, which is number 10 in the unofficial file. HotBits give Josh, Cassie, and His Royal Duckness as appelate justices. > > >But that's kinda silly. Frankly, I think the judgement on that CFJ was > > >bad. But I'm not sure if I really want to appeal it, yet. > > > >You can't; you have to convince me to do that. And you have to do so > >quickly; the old one becomes a rule soon. > > Well, we can always repeal the rule later on. =) Which would be recognizing that that interpretation was correct, and changing the rules to make it incorrect. However, I appealed it, so we don't care. From unlin_e@y... Fri Apr 18 11:01:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 18:01:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 24327 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 18:01:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 18:01:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11403.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.233) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 18:01:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20030418180101.14480.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:01:01 PDT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3E9FAFF4.F54FE273@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --snip-- > > Since the rule that I suggest that gives out Coins increases the number of > Things in a regular > > fashion, I'm suggesting it go in the First Sacred Law. > > I'm not sure that a regular increase is such a good idea. Why not create a > "Bank" or some such, > with a large number of coins, say 1,000,000,000. I think this could avoid > rule 1.1, by simply > having the rule which creates the coins do so 1 day after the passage of the > proposal, or > perhaps conditional upon when the next subsequent proposal passes. text > along these lines would > do the job nicely: --snip-- I'm with the Good Doctor on this one, it seems more in line with the intention of the original ruleset to have a finite pool of Things to work with than to have regular mechanisms for the creation of Things. Granted, the rules are supposed to evolve with time, but let's give the entropy paradigm a little more time. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 18 12:23:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 19:23:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 22438 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 19:23:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 19:23:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 19:23:27 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E360B14E23B; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:21:50 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] registration proposal Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:21:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> <3E9FAD50.4F51F5C7@u...> In-Reply-To: <3E9FAD50.4F51F5C7@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304181521.50046.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 18 April 2003 03:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Ian Kelly wrote: > > > > For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with > > the text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point > > shall be created in the possession of the player who possesses > > the proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the > > entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a > > rule. No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just > > give them consecutive integers starting with 20. > > > > All expired proposals are destroyed. > > This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this proposal > will be destroyed, these proposals are all fodder for being converted int= o > potential rules. For this reason I must vote AGAINST this proposal. Agreed. - --=20 bd I always say beauty is only sin deep. -- Saki, "Reginald's Choir Treat" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+oFBOx533NjVSos4RAuhVAKCVjPAkaSZeslfOU5NPZwYeWVxTWwCfRoR5 PWUL14DVUuhnPFbT/zygJrs=3D =3Dr9Vy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kellyia@e... Fri Apr 18 14:05:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 21:05:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 77723 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 21:05:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 21:05:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 21:05:41 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3IL5eGF030344 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:05:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.230.13 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:05:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36264.159.28.230.13.1050699940.squirrel@w...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:05:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] registration proposal To: In-Reply-To: <200304181521.50046.bdonlan@b...> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> <3E9FAD50.4F51F5C7@u...> <200304181521.50046.bdonlan@b...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Friday 18 April 2003 03:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: >> Ian Kelly wrote: >> > >> > For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with the >> text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point shall be >> created in the possession of the player who possesses the >> proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the >> > entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a rule. >> No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just give them >> consecutive integers starting with 20. >> > >> > All expired proposals are destroyed. >> >> This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this >> proposal will be destroyed, these proposals are all fodder for being >> converted into potential rules. For this reason I must vote AGAINST >> this proposal. > > Agreed. Erk. I thought I already argued against this line of reasoning. The proposals aren't just destroyed, they're converted into useless rules that serve the same fodder purpose, so what are you objecting to? Ian From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 18 14:09:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 21:09:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 67341 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 21:09:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 21:09:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 21:09:36 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 27EF114E2E4; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:07:58 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] registration proposal Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:07:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> <200304181521.50046.bdonlan@b...> <36264.159.28.230.13.1050699940.squirrel@w...> In-Reply-To: <36264.159.28.230.13.1050699940.squirrel@w...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304181707.56548.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 18 April 2003 05:05 pm, Ian Kelly wrote: > bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Friday 18 April 2003 03:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > >> Ian Kelly wrote: > >> > > >> > For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with the > >> > >> text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point shall be > >> created in the possession of the player who possesses the > >> proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the > >> > >> > entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a rule. > >> > >> No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just give them > >> consecutive integers starting with 20. > >> > >> > All expired proposals are destroyed. > >> > >> This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this > >> proposal will be destroyed, these proposals are all fodder for being > >> converted into potential rules. For this reason I must vote AGAINST > >> this proposal. > > > > Agreed. > > Erk. I thought I already argued against this line of reasoning. The > proposals aren't just destroyed, they're converted into useless rules tha= t > serve the same fodder purpose, so what are you objecting to? Sorry, I read maioiling lists in chronological order :/ I change my vote to= =20 YES. - --=20 bd It's not the men in my life, but the life in my men that counts. -- Mae West -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+oGksx533NjVSos4RAisrAJ936tufcVpUk+3sOVHmrHZMMO42iQCfdSEI AeV051OuaEsPlnqvZ4i/h4Q=3D =3DjSkS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 15:07:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:07:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 65447 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:07:30 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A726940023E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:07:34 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] registration proposal Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:07:30 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304181707.56548.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this >> >> proposal will be destroyed, these proposals are all fodder for being >> >> converted into potential rules. For this reason I must vote AGAINST >> >> this proposal. >> > >> > Agreed. >> >> Erk. I thought I already argued against this line of reasoning. The >> proposals aren't just destroyed, they're converted into useless rules that >> serve the same fodder purpose, so what are you objecting to? >Sorry, I read maioiling lists in chronological order :/ I change my vote to >YES. Whether you can change your vote is probably next on the judicial hit list zo'o. However, the first message did not contain a clear vote - you simply agree with the reasoning that led to his vote, not the vote itself. So you're definitely in the clear. I'm ABSTAINing on Ian's proposal, by the way. From cortex@n... Fri Apr 18 15:13:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:13:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 2582 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:13:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 11262 invoked by uid 1006); 18 Apr 2003 22:13:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:13:01 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re the CFJ on negative points... Message-ID: <20030418181301.A11166@a...> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 03:57:01PM -0000 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 03:57:01PM -0000, kreig_daniyl keyboarded: [if the below-mentioned CFJ is not overturned by appeal, an arbitrary number of things can be destroyed, yielding negative things, which ruins (or at least perverts) the whole goddam game, yo] > That is an excellent point. Before it is too late for me to stop the > rulification, I hereby appeal that CFJ, which is number 10 in the > unofficial file. HotBits give Josh, Cassie, and His Royal Duckness as > appelate justices. Assuming that I understand correctly (the unofficial proposal file being oddly inaccessible at the moment), I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which (as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 15:32:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:32:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 94110 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:32:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:32:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:32:35 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD07657026E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:32:39 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:32:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030418181301.A11166@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Assuming that I understand correctly (the unofficial proposal file being >oddly inaccessible at the moment), I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which >(as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. There are two relevant CFJs. One of them has been judged TRUE, and since appealed. That is this one. The other one states that rule 7.3 did nothing because there was no point to destroy. It has not been judged, probably because it felt irrelevant after the first one was judged. The one in question here states that your deregistration DID create a negative point, so yes, I think you think it's false. From cortex@n... Fri Apr 18 15:36:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:36:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 2407 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:36:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:36:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:36:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 11463 invoked by uid 1006); 18 Apr 2003 22:36:47 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:36:47 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... Message-ID: <20030418183647.A11319@a...> References: <20030418181301.A11166@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 06:32:35PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 06:32:35PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >Assuming that I understand correctly (the unofficial proposal file being > >oddly inaccessible at the moment), I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which > >(as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. > > There are two relevant CFJs. One of them has been judged TRUE, and since > appealed. That is this one. The other one states that rule 7.3 did nothing > because there was no point to destroy. It has not been judged, probably > because it felt irrelevant after the first one was judged. The one in > question here states that your deregistration DID create a negative point, > so yes, I think you think it's false. Yes. Precisely. Okay. Good. Thank you. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 15:44:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:44:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 70763 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:44:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:44:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:44:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 25213 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:44:40 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:44:40 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3IMien29408 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:44:40 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA072FC.5957A3DD@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:49:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> <20030418181301.A11166@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 03:57:01PM -0000, kreig_daniyl keyboarded: > > [if the below-mentioned CFJ is not overturned by appeal, an arbitrary > number of things can be destroyed, yielding negative things, which > ruins (or at least perverts) the whole goddam game, yo] > > > That is an excellent point. Before it is too late for me to stop the > > rulification, I hereby appeal that CFJ, which is number 10 in the > > unofficial file. HotBits give Josh, Cassie, and His Royal Duckness as > > appelate justices. > > Assuming that I understand correctly (the unofficial proposal file being > oddly inaccessible at the moment), I may have been upping a newer version. > I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which > (as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. > Actually the language of rule 12.2 is: "All Appellate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to true or false." So I would interpret your ruling to actually be TRUE. (i.e. You judge the original CFJ to be TRUE.) Please confirm so I can update to Proposal file. From cortex@n... Fri Apr 18 15:50:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:50:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 83166 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:50:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 11503 invoked by uid 1006); 18 Apr 2003 22:50:52 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:50:52 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... Message-ID: <20030418185052.B11319@a...> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> <20030418181301.A11166@a...> <3EA072FC.5957A3DD@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EA072FC.5957A3DD@u...>; from drduck@u... on Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:49:48PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:49:48PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > cortex wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 03:57:01PM -0000, kreig_daniyl keyboarded: > > > > [if the below-mentioned CFJ is not overturned by appeal, an arbitrary > > number of things can be destroyed, yielding negative things, which > > ruins (or at least perverts) the whole goddam game, yo] > > > > I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which > > (as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. > > > > Actually the language of rule 12.2 is: "All Appellate Justices shall announce whether they > consider the Call For Judgement in question to true or false." Right. Though I can't actually access the rules right now, either. (or any other file in the "Files" section. They're all timing out. Yahoo?) > So I would interpret your ruling to actually be TRUE. (i.e. You judge the original CFJ to be > TRUE.) Please confirm so I can update to Proposal file. No, my intention was to vote the original CFJ to be FALSE. I do not agree with the notion of the negative point. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 15:53:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:53:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 53406 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:53:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:53:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:53:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 30628 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:53:15 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:53:15 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3IMrF217468 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:53:15 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA074FF.10170D16@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:58:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> <20030418181301.A11166@a...> <3EA072FC.5957A3DD@u...> <20030418185052.B11319@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:49:48PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > > cortex wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 03:57:01PM -0000, kreig_daniyl keyboarded: > > > > > > [if the below-mentioned CFJ is not overturned by appeal, an arbitrary > > > number of things can be destroyed, yielding negative things, which > > > ruins (or at least perverts) the whole goddam game, yo] > > > > > > I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which > > > (as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. > > > > > > > Actually the language of rule 12.2 is: "All Appellate Justices shall announce whether they > > consider the Call For Judgement in question to true or false." > > Right. Though I can't actually access the rules right now, either. (or > any other file in the "Files" section. They're all timing out. Yahoo?) > Yeah, I think so too, i'm having some difficulty as well. > > > So I would interpret your ruling to actually be TRUE. (i.e. You judge the original CFJ to be > > TRUE.) Please confirm so I can update to Proposal file. > > No, my intention was to vote the original CFJ to be FALSE. I do not > agree with the notion of the negative point. > Okay, gotcha. I'm re-upping the proposals files now From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 15:58:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:58:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 48372 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:58:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:58:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:58:47 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A32B676026E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:58:51 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:58:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA072FC.5957A3DD@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which >> (as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. >Actually the language of rule 12.2 is: "All Appellate Justices shall announce whether they >consider the Call For Judgement in question to true or false." >So I would interpret your ruling to actually be TRUE. (i.e. You judge the original CFJ to be >TRUE.) Please confirm so I can update to Proposal file. It was originally judged TRUE. False is a reversal not because False means the judge was worng but because the judge said True. From cortex@n... Fri Apr 18 16:03:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:03:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 66319 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:03:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:03:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:03:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 11557 invoked by uid 1006); 18 Apr 2003 23:03:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:03:27 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... Message-ID: <20030418190327.C11319@a...> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030418093235.01d7d7a0@m...> <20030418181301.A11166@a...> <3EA072FC.5957A3DD@u...> <20030418185052.B11319@a...> <3EA074FF.10170D16@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EA074FF.10170D16@u...>; from drduck@u... on Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:58:23PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard > > Right. Though I can't actually access the rules right now, either. (or > > any other file in the "Files" section. They're all timing out. Yahoo?) > > Yeah, I think so too, i'm having some difficulty as well. Yep. Things seem to be at least working now, though, if with a great deal of latency. Not that me pointing this out to the list was strictly necessary, of course. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 16:12:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:12:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 27075 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:12:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:12:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:12:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 1629 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:12:50 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:12:50 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3INCnX23160 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:12:49 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA07996.43298243@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:17:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things.] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> > >There are some proposals. Proposals include the following: > >> > > > >> > >1 V Proposal 1, owned by Cassie. > >> > >2 P bd's untitled prop (about things of the dead), owned by bd. > >> > >3 P Proposal 2, owned by Craig. > >> > >4 V Proposal 3, owned by unlin_e > >> > >5 V Proposal 3, version 2, owned by unlin_e > >> > >6 P Dr Ducker::1, owned by Dr Ducker > >> > >7 PR Let There Be Josh, owned by, um, um... I see a CFJ coming on! > >> > >8 P Craig's untitled prop (about randomizers), owned by Craig > >> > >9 P The Stenotype, owned by Craig > >> > > >> > I hereby submit the following proposal, Spring Cleaning: > >> > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. > >> > > >> > >> Because ALL proposals which were submitted prior to this proposal will be expired at the > time of > >> this proposals potential passage, and therefore will no longer be available for conversion > into > >> new rules, I must vote AGAINST this proposal. Note that, since if both Josh, and Cassie > were to > >> likewise vote against this proposal it would not pass, it is not purely futile to vote > against > >> at this time. > > Yes, but when I wrote that comment Josh was not a player and could not vote. > It is no longer the case. > Of course now that Spring Cleaning has passed, I'd like to point out that "the stenotype take 2" is now in violation of rule 1.1 since Proposal 2 has already been destroyed. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 16:14:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:14:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 10148 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:14:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:14:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:14:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 1956 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:14:58 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:14:58 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3INEwa04182 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:14:58 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3EA07A16.64705EA5@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:20:06 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re the CFJ on negative points... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> I judge this CFJ to be FALSE, which > >> (as I recall) is a vote to reverse the original CFJ ruling. > > >Actually the language of rule 12.2 is: "All Appellate Justices shall > announce whether they > >consider the Call For Judgement in question to true or false." > > >So I would interpret your ruling to actually be TRUE. (i.e. You judge the > original CFJ to be > >TRUE.) Please confirm so I can update to Proposal file. > > It was originally judged TRUE. False is a reversal not because False means > the judge was worng but because the judge said True. > Yes, I realize that now. What I hadn't been clear on was whether Josh thought an Appellate Judgement was on the original CFJ or on the Judgement of the CFJ. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 16:22:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:22:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 22400 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:22:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:22:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:22:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8CE74AD006E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:22:54 -0400 To: Subject: The Stenotype, take 3 (was: RE: [Fwd: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things.]) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:22:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA07996.43298243@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Of course now that Spring Cleaning has passed, I'd like to point out that "the stenotype take 2" >is now in violation of rule 1.1 since Proposal 2 has already been destroyed. Fine. I hereby submit a proposal "The Stenotype take 3", identical to "the stenotype take 2" except for the fact that the words "proposal 2" are replaced with "the proposal known as "the stenotype take 2"" From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 16:27:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:27:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 56653 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:27:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:27:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:27:48 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9F76A8026E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:27:51 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:27:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030418180101.14480.qmail@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I'm with the Good Doctor on this one, it seems more in line with the intention >of the original ruleset to have a finite pool of Things to work with than to >have regular mechanisms for the creation of Things. >Granted, the rules are supposed to evolve with time, but let's give the entropy >paradigm a little more time. I agree. I was only hoping for us to evolve out of that because I could see no other way to stimulate any growth. The Docta's way gets around this nicely. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 16:49:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:49:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 98118 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:49:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:49:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:49:12 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEFC983023E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:49:16 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] Fwd: RE: [Thermo] Proposals File Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:49:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304181839.42496.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl bd in the B Nomic discussion list: >I've been discussing inter-nomic trade with someone from Thermodynomic, and >he's got some interesting ideas: (formatting ruined by deep reply-nesting) Guy from Thermo here. I've joined this list to discuss it with the B Nomic community. bd is already also in Thermo. I've cc'd it to that list so that we can talk about the ideas we've got there, as well, if that community is interested in having some input (which I hope it is). Comments from either list should probably be summarized to the other. Here's the executive summary of our ideas: 1. We establish rules within each Nomic for trade between Nomics. Very decentralized; requires greater change to add a new Nomic to such trading. Hence, 1a. We establish universal rules for inter-Nomic trade. Any Nomic can then agree to be part of those rules, and can recognize any other such Nomic as a possible trading partner. 2. ThermodyNomic introduces a Grid-like system, and there are teleports between the two grids. Anyone on a foreign grid carries eir stuff with em and is bound by the new movement rules. Integrates the two Nomics to a greater degree, and gets more confusing, but allows for trade in really straightforward ways. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 16:58:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 23:58:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 81256 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:58:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 23:58:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:58:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 8720 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 23:58:03 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 23:58:03 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3INw3607889 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:58:03 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA08430.1E72D4DD@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:03:12 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Stenotype, take 3 (was: RE: [Fwd: [Thermo] RE: Speaker's unofficial report of Things.]) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Of course now that Spring Cleaning has passed, I'd like to point out that > "the stenotype take 2" > >is now in violation of rule 1.1 since Proposal 2 has already been > destroyed. > > Fine. I hereby submit a proposal "The Stenotype take 3", identical to "the > stenotype take 2" except for the fact that the words "proposal 2" are > replaced with "the proposal known as "the stenotype take 2"" > Okay, but you better hope Ian Kelly's registration proposal doesn't pass, as that'll destroy "the stenotype take 2"... Might I also recommend, that you move the self-destruction line to the bottom. Otherwise there is a question of ordering, i.e. the proposal being destroyed before destoying the other proposal and assigning a holder of the office. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 18 17:02:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 19 Apr 2003 00:02:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 46898 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 00:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2003 00:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 00:02:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 5457 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 00:02:12 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 00:02:12 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3J02B603650 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:02:11 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA08529.775163E5@u...> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:07:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] registration proposal References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030417220510.01d80090@m...> <3E9FAD50.4F51F5C7@u...> <200304181521.50046.bdonlan@b...> <36264.159.28.230.13.1050699940.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Friday 18 April 2003 03:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > >> Ian Kelly wrote: > >> > > >> > For each expired proposal in existence, a rule is created with the > >> text "If this proposal is destroyed by a proposal, a point shall be > >> created in the possession of the player who possesses the > >> proposal.", and with a number randomly chosen from the > >> > entire space of the real numbers not already associated with a rule. > >> No, perhaps that's not in the spirit of 0.2. Let's just give them > >> consecutive integers starting with 20. > >> > > >> > All expired proposals are destroyed. > >> > >> This means ALL proposals which preceeded the submission of this > >> proposal will be destroyed, these proposals are all fodder for being > >> converted into potential rules. For this reason I must vote AGAINST > >> this proposal. > > > > Agreed. > > Erk. I thought I already argued against this line of reasoning. The > proposals aren't just destroyed, they're converted into useless rules that > serve the same fodder purpose, so what are you objecting to? > > Ian > I'm also against rule 6.8, since it would render one of our loopholes nullified. Something like 6.8 might be worthwhile at a later point, but I think we still need a bit of incoming flow in order to get anything done. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 18 18:34:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 19 Apr 2003 01:34:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 26524 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 01:34:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2003 01:34:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 01:34:48 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7BD75B6006E; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:34:53 -0400 To: Subject: Proto: outsiders Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:34:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I suggest creating a Thing called an "outsider." This may be anyone who wishes to be treated as one who is not a player. This would include all B Nomic people if we work out some kind of interaction between our games. Then, I suggest allowing Outsiders to own Things. This would clear up the question about who owns registration proposals. It would, of course, be necessary to ban the destructon of Outsiders, as such destruction could only result in their re-creation and violate the spirit of the TSLs. From drduck@u... Sat Apr 19 03:30:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 19 Apr 2003 10:30:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 76926 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 10:30:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2003 10:30:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 10:30:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 16453 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 10:30:53 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 10:30:53 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3JAUq403896 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 03:30:52 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA1188E.F263729C@u...> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:36:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 kreig_daniyl wrote: > > > >> I don't think it's possible to destroy things that don't > exist, but if bd > > > >> has -1 points then I guess it's already happened once... > > > > > > >Well, we could argue for the existence of anti-Things as well, > and then > > > >let the number of things actually represent the difference > between the > > > >number of things and the number of anti-things; so that bd has > one fewer > > > >points than ey has anti-points. > > > > > >Since Things have no physical manifestation, they can be negative > in number. > > > > It seems to me that this interpretation pretty much breaks the > whole entropy > > thing. Since I don't really care too much whether I have a > positive number > > of points, I'll just destroy as many as I want in order to create > as many > > rules as I want. Or if points get replaced with Coins in such a > way that it > > *is* desirable to have a positive number of Coins, I'll just > destroy all my > > non-existent proposals instead. > > That is an excellent point. Before it is too late for me to stop the > rulification, I hereby appeal that CFJ, which is number 10 in the > unofficial file. HotBits give Josh, Cassie, and His Royal Duckness as > appelate justices. > For reference the text of rule 7.3 is: When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir points and things are distributed randomly between all other players. Note that this is the text from bd's untitled, and now destroyed, proposal. And the text of the CFJ: Rule 7.3 decreased the number of points in the game by 1 upon Josh's deregistration. A random player must therefore receive a negative number of points. In examining this CFJ, the question seems to be are the phrases, "one of eir points is destroyed" and "decreased the number of points in the game", equivalent. First, it seems to me that the text of rule 7.3 is specific to a point in the possession of the player in question, and not simply more generally within the game. If Josh had had a point when he deregistered then the effect of deregistration would trivially prove this CFJ true, however, since Josh did not have a point when he deregistered the question then appears to shift to whether a non-existant Thing can be destroyed. This issue seems to go to the spirit of the game as a whole, and it seems to me to be against that spirit to have "negative" Things. Additionally, I find the second sentence to be dangerously ambiguous as a stand-alone rule, which it would become if this CFJ is found true. For these reasons, I must find the CFJ to be FALSE. > > > >But that's kinda silly. Frankly, I think the judgement on that CFJ was > > > >bad. But I'm not sure if I really want to appeal it, yet. > > > > > >You can't; you have to convince me to do that. And you have to do so > > >quickly; the old one becomes a rule soon. > > > > Well, we can always repeal the rule later on. =) > > Which would be recognizing that that interpretation was correct, and changing the rules to > make it incorrect. > However, I appealed it, so we don't care. > From ragnarok@p... Sat Apr 19 06:15:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 19 Apr 2003 13:15:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 53493 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 13:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2003 13:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 13:15:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABFB7CA4006E; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:15:39 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Proto-Proposal: EcoNomic Stimulus Package Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:15:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA1188E.F263729C@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >For reference the text of rule 7.3 is: >When a player deregisters, one of eir points is destroyed, and all eir points and things are >distributed randomly between all other players. It wasn't when the CFJ was judged. Should a change in the rules between judgement and appeal have an effect on the truth of the CFJ, if it would? In this case it doesn't matter, but it seems interesting generally. >Additionally, I find the second sentence to be dangerously ambiguous as a stand-alone rule, >which it would become if this CFJ is found true. That ought not to affect judgements. Therefore, I suggest that we make the addition non-automatic. That is, in the case of a TRUE judgement, the judge or appelate justice in question must state which sentneces should become rules. From ragnarok@p... Sat Apr 19 12:07:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 19 Apr 2003 19:07:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 15556 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 19:07:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2003 19:07:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 19:07:38 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE7C9D60248; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:07:40 -0400 To: Subject: Ruleset updated Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:07:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but you're doing most of the job anyway. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 20 16:30:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 20 Apr 2003 23:30:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 2423 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2003 23:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Apr 2003 23:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 2003 23:30:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 31753 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2003 23:30:21 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 2003 23:30:21 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3KNULA11064 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:30:21 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:36:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. > Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very helpful. Dr > Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I volunteered to take it > because nobody else seemed to want it, but you're doing most of the job > anyway. > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you wanted to make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. Of course I'm not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm guessing something like this: Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be ____________. Destroy this Proposal. But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal passes or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule 6.8 will make this impossible. From kellyia@e... Sun Apr 20 16:40:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 20 Apr 2003 23:40:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 70754 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2003 23:40:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Apr 2003 23:40:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 2003 23:40:00 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3KNdxGF097652 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:39:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.160.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:39:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1097.159.28.160.2.1050881999.squirrel@w...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:39:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated To: In-Reply-To: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> References: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > >> The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. >> Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very >> helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I >> volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but >> you're doing most of the job anyway. >> > > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you wanted to > make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. Of course I'm > not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm guessing something > like this: > > > Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: > The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be > ____________. > > Destroy this Proposal. > > > But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal passes > or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule 6.8 will make > this impossible. I don't think there's any need to create a rule to do this. Rather, something like the following should work fine: __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker. Ian From drduck@u... Sun Apr 20 16:50:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 20 Apr 2003 23:50:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 64990 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2003 23:50:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Apr 2003 23:50:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 2003 23:50:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 20317 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2003 23:50:45 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 2003 23:50:45 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3KNojj28329 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:50:45 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA325B1.3D4918E3@u...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:56:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated References: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> <1097.159.28.160.2.1050881999.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Craig wrote: > > > >> The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. > >> Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very > >> helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I > >> volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but > >> you're doing most of the job anyway. > >> > > > > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you wanted to > > make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. Of course I'm > > not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm guessing something > > like this: > > > > > > Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: > > The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be > > ____________. > > > > Destroy this Proposal. > > > > > > But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal passes > > or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule 6.8 will make > > this impossible. > > I don't think there's any need to create a rule to do this. Rather, > something like the following should work fine: > > > __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker. > > > Ian > Rule 6.5 says we can't just change it. So we have to resort to proposals. However changing the possessor of a Thing, is neither a creation, nor a deletion of a thing, nor is it a comment or group heading (rule 5.0). So you can't do it directly. You have to create a rule to do it. From kellyia@e... Sun Apr 20 17:39:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 00:39:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 69642 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 00:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 00:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 00:39:34 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3L0dWGF034930 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:39:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.160.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:39:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1175.159.28.160.2.1050885573.squirrel@w...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:39:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated To: In-Reply-To: <3EA325B1.3D4918E3@u...> References: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> <1097.159.28.160.2.1050881999.squirrel@w...> <3EA325B1.3D4918E3@u...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Doctor Ducker wrote: > Ian Kelly wrote: > >> Doctor Ducker wrote: >> > Craig wrote: >> > >> >> The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. >> >> Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very >> helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I >> volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but >> you're doing most of the job anyway. >> >> >> > >> > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you >> wanted to make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. >> Of course I'm not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm >> guessing something like this: >> > >> > >> > Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: >> > The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be >> > ____________. >> > >> > Destroy this Proposal. >> > >> > >> > But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal >> passes or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule 6.8 >> will make this impossible. >> >> I don't think there's any need to create a rule to do this. Rather, >> something like the following should work fine: >> >> >> __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker. >> >> >> Ian >> > > Rule 6.5 says we can't just change it. So we have to resort to > proposals. However changing the possessor of a Thing, is neither a > creation, nor a deletion of a thing, nor is it a comment or group > heading (rule 5.0). So you can't do it directly. You have to create a > rule to do it. Ah, my mistake. Still, I don't think we need to create a new Thing, necessarily. How about this? Create a new Rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES, reading "Upon creation of this rule, __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker." Destroy Rule 10.5. Ian From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 20 17:48:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 00:48:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 78136 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 00:48:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 00:48:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 00:48:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFD8EF1028C; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:48:24 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:48:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <1175.159.28.160.2.1050885573.squirrel@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Ah, my mistake. Still, I don't think we need to create a new Thing, >necessarily. How about this? How 'bout: Create one Office of the Speaker in the posession of ***. Destroy one Office of the Speaker in the posession of Craig. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 20 17:53:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 00:53:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 1529 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 00:53:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 00:53:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 00:53:23 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A108836026E; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:53:28 -0400 To: Subject: I've made a decision... Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:53:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl That might speed things up a little, but doesn't really accomplish much. I hereby ABSTAIN on Ian's registration proposal. The one that e might or might not own. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 20 18:07:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 01:07:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 74564 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 01:07:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 01:07:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 01:07:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 10711 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 01:07:57 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 01:07:57 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3L17uj05790 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:07:56 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA337C9.A264B5E1@u...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:14:01 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated References: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> <1097.159.28.160.2.1050881999.squirrel@w...> <3EA325B1.3D4918E3@u...> <1175.159.28.160.2.1050885573.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Ian Kelly wrote: > > > >> Doctor Ducker wrote: > >> > Craig wrote: > >> > > >> >> The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. > >> >> Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very > >> helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I > >> volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but > >> you're doing most of the job anyway. > >> >> > >> > > >> > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you > >> wanted to make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. > >> Of course I'm not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm > >> guessing something like this: > >> > > >> > > >> > Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: > >> > The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be > >> > ____________. > >> > > >> > Destroy this Proposal. > >> > > >> > > >> > But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal > >> passes or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule 6.8 > >> will make this impossible. > >> > >> I don't think there's any need to create a rule to do this. Rather, > >> something like the following should work fine: > >> > >> > >> __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker. > >> > >> > >> Ian > >> > > > > Rule 6.5 says we can't just change it. So we have to resort to > > proposals. However changing the possessor of a Thing, is neither a > > creation, nor a deletion of a thing, nor is it a comment or group > > heading (rule 5.0). So you can't do it directly. You have to create a > > rule to do it. > > Ah, my mistake. Still, I don't think we need to create a new Thing, > necessarily. How about this? > > > Create a new Rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES, reading "Upon creation of > this rule, __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker." > > Destroy Rule 10.5. > > The issue at this point is an unresolved detail of timing. What order do these actions happen in? There's no clear rule that states what that ordering is... From drduck@u... Sun Apr 20 18:09:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 01:09:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 6899 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 01:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 01:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 01:09:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 10816 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 01:09:01 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 01:09:01 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3L190j07401 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:09:00 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA33809.F748EF43@u...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Ah, my mistake. Still, I don't think we need to create a new Thing, > >necessarily. How about this? > > How 'bout: > > Create one Office of the Speaker in the posession of ***. > Destroy one Office of the Speaker in the posession of Craig. > > I can't see anything obviously wrong with this. Can anybody else? From drduck@u... Sun Apr 20 18:09:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 01:09:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 78117 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 01:09:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 01:09:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 01:09:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 30329 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 01:09:29 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 01:09:29 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3L19Tj08172 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:09:29 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA33826.57CD786B@u...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] I've made a decision... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > That might speed things up a little, but doesn't really accomplish much. I > hereby ABSTAIN on Ian's registration proposal. The one that e might or might > not own. > You already did that... From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 20 20:01:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 03:01:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 9066 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 03:01:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 03:01:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 03:01:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF23E10023E; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:01:55 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] I've made a decision... Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:02:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA33826.57CD786B@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> That might speed things up a little, but doesn't really accomplish much. I >> hereby ABSTAIN on Ian's registration proposal. The one that e might or might >> not own. >You already did that... Well, at least I'm consistent. From kellyia@e... Sun Apr 20 22:38:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 05:38:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 42610 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 05:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 05:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 05:37:59 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3L5bwGF013035 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:37:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.160.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:37:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1109.159.28.160.2.1050903478.squirrel@w...> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:37:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated To: In-Reply-To: <3EA337C9.A264B5E1@u...> References: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> <1097.159.28.160.2.1050881999.squirrel@w...> <3EA325B1.3D4918E3@u...> <1175.159.28.160.2.1050885573.squirrel@w...> <3EA337C9.A264B5E1@u...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.59 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Doctor Ducker wrote: > Ian Kelly wrote: > >> Doctor Ducker wrote: >> > Ian Kelly wrote: >> > >> >> Doctor Ducker wrote: >> >> > Craig wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. >> >> >> Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very >> >> helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I >> volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but >> you're doing most of the job anyway. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you >> >> wanted to make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. >> Of course I'm not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm >> guessing something like this: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: >> >> > The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be >> ____________. >> >> > >> >> > Destroy this Proposal. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal >> >> passes or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule >> 6.8 will make this impossible. >> >> >> >> I don't think there's any need to create a rule to do this. >> Rather, something like the following should work fine: >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ian >> >> >> > >> > Rule 6.5 says we can't just change it. So we have to resort to >> proposals. However changing the possessor of a Thing, is neither a >> creation, nor a deletion of a thing, nor is it a comment or group >> heading (rule 5.0). So you can't do it directly. You have to >> create a rule to do it. >> >> Ah, my mistake. Still, I don't think we need to create a new Thing, >> necessarily. How about this? >> >> >> Create a new Rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES, reading "Upon >> creation of this rule, __________ becomes the possessor of the office >> of Speaker." >> >> Destroy Rule 10.5. >> >> > > The issue at this point is an unresolved detail of timing. What order > do these actions happen in? There's no clear rule that states what that > ordering is... If you're worried about that, I'd say just destroy a point or something at the beginning of the proposal, and reinstate it at the end. That way the total number of things isn't increased at any point in time. Ian From drduck@u... Mon Apr 21 00:38:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 07:38:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 43345 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 07:37:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 07:37:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 07:37:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 11104 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 07:37:58 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 07:37:58 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3L7bwt31020 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:37:58 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3EA39339.BD7D0158@u...> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:44:10 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated References: <3EA320E7.2F55ED19@u...> <1097.159.28.160.2.1050881999.squirrel@w...> <3EA325B1.3D4918E3@u...> <1175.159.28.160.2.1050885573.squirrel@w...> <3EA337C9.A264B5E1@u...> <1109.159.28.160.2.1050903478.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Ian Kelly wrote: > > > >> Doctor Ducker wrote: > >> > Ian Kelly wrote: > >> > > >> >> Doctor Ducker wrote: > >> >> > Craig wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> The ruleset in our files area is now up to date. > >> >> >> Dr Ducker's unofficial keeping-track-of-everything file is very > >> >> helpful. Dr Ducker, would you like an Office of the Speaker? I > >> volunteered to take it because nobody else seemed to want it, but > >> you're doing most of the job anyway. > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > Well, I would bow to the will of others, by abstaining, if you > >> >> wanted to make such a proposal. But I'm not actively seeking such. > >> Of course I'm not sure how such a proposal would be worded, I'm > >> guessing something like this: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Create a rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES which reads: > >> >> > The possessor of the office of Speaker shall be changed to be > >> ____________. > >> >> > > >> >> > Destroy this Proposal. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > But we've gotta wait on whether Ian Kelly's registration proposal > >> >> passes or fails before we can even try this. Otherwise his rule > >> 6.8 will make this impossible. > >> >> > >> >> I don't think there's any need to create a rule to do this. > >> Rather, something like the following should work fine: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> __________ becomes the possessor of the office of Speaker. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Ian > >> >> > >> > > >> > Rule 6.5 says we can't just change it. So we have to resort to > >> proposals. However changing the possessor of a Thing, is neither a > >> creation, nor a deletion of a thing, nor is it a comment or group > >> heading (rule 5.0). So you can't do it directly. You have to > >> create a rule to do it. > >> > >> Ah, my mistake. Still, I don't think we need to create a new Thing, > >> necessarily. How about this? > >> > >> > >> Create a new Rule 10.5 under the heading OFFICES, reading "Upon > >> creation of this rule, __________ becomes the possessor of the office > >> of Speaker." > >> > >> Destroy Rule 10.5. > >> > >> > > > > The issue at this point is an unresolved detail of timing. What order > > do these actions happen in? There's no clear rule that states what that > > ordering is... > > If you're worried about that, I'd say just destroy a point or something at > the beginning of the proposal, and reinstate it at the end. That way the > total number of things isn't increased at any point in time. > > Ian Consider this sequence: 1) Gamestate prior to proposal 2) Actions of Proposal 3) Gamestate after proposal In your example, states 1 and 3 are identical, therefore the non-proposal has no real effect. What matters is the gamestate before and after the actions of the proposal, not the state during those actions. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 21 18:56:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 01:56:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 90134 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 01:56:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 01:56:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 01:56:03 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A138A0E6006E; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:56:08 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:56:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA39339.BD7D0158@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I've got it. This is a general fix, that happens to allow the desired transition. Add a rule 6.8 in the group headed CHANGING THE GAMESTATE reading "Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list." If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has passed, destroy Ian Kelly. Just kidding. Instead, if it has passed, destroy rule 20. If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has failed, destroy this proposal. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 21 19:17:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 02:17:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 45855 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 02:17:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 02:17:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 02:17:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A65A129A023A; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:18:02 -0400 To: Subject: Final Version of ENSP Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:18:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Destroy rule 9.1 Create a new rule 9.1 under the heading THINGS with the text: Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, points, kudos, and The Bank are things. Destroy rule 9.7 Create a new rule 9.7 under the heading THINGS with the text: Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Create a new rule 15.0 under the heading THINGS with the text: When the first proposal, after the creation of this rule, becomes expired, then at that time, The Bank will be created, 1,000,000,000 coins will be created in the possession of The Bank, and this rule will then be destroyed. The comment for the section THINGS will have the following text added to the end of it: Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. Destroy rule 14.2 For each point in existence, create a Coin in the posession of the same player. Destroy all points. For each kudos in existence, create a Coin in the posession of the same player. Destroy all kudoses. Create a new rule 15.1 under the heading THERMODYNOMIC with the text: This rule serves no purpose. Destroy rule 15.1 Why? Because we can. Let's do the happy-dance. Gosh, you can really tell I'm up too late causing economic activity. Imagine what Alan Greenspan goes through. Destroy rule 7.3 Create a new rule 7.3 under the heading DEREGISTRATION with the text: When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Destroy rule 1.3 Create a new rule 1.3 under the heading FIRST SACRED LAW with the text: Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. Destroy rule 2.1 Create a new rule 2.1 under the heading SECOND SACRED LAW with the text: Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. Players are hereby reminded that the above two changes alter the Three Sacred Laws. Thus, NO votes are vetoes and ABSTAIN votes are like normal NO votes. It is therefore important to vote, and since these are minor changes players are asked to ABSTAIN rather than vetoing the proposal unless they see some gaping flaw that was missed in earlier discussion. Of course, this paragraph has no force, but it is here as a reminder. From glotmorf@e... Mon Apr 21 19:30:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: glotmorf@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 02:30:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 22188 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 02:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 02:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www.intellectcomputers.com) (208.185.189.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 02:30:30 -0000 Received: from fred (ip.209.249.191.216.ioip.com [209.249.191.216]) by www.intellectcomputers.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA07202 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200304212237080080.000AE2B5@s...> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (3) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:37:08 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Glotmorf" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=144893479 X-Yahoo-Profile: nomicmorf On 4/21/03 at 10:18 PM Craig wrote: > >Destroy rule 9.1 >Create a new rule 9.1 under the heading THINGS with the text: >Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, points, kudos, and The Bank are >things. > >Destroy rule 9.7 >Create a new rule 9.7 under the heading THINGS with the text: >Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a >player or The Bank. > >Create a new rule 15.0 under the heading THINGS with the text: >When the first proposal, after the creation of this rule, becomes expired, >then at that time, >The Bank will be created, 1,000,000,000 coins will be created in the >possession of The Bank, and >this rule will then be destroyed. > >The comment for the section THINGS will have the following text added to >the >end of it: >Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesse= s >all Coins not in the posession of a player. > >Destroy rule 14.2 > >For each point in existence, create a Coin in the posession of the same >player. Destroy all points. >For each kudos in existence, create a Coin in the posession of the same >player. Destroy all kudoses. > >Create a new rule 15.1 under the heading THERMODYNOMIC with the text: >This rule serves no purpose. >Destroy rule 15.1 >Why? Because we can. Let's do the happy-dance. >Gosh, you can really tell I'm up too late causing economic activity. >Imagine >what Alan Greenspan goes through. > >Destroy rule 7.3 >Create a new rule 7.3 under the heading DEREGISTRATION with the text: >When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir >things >are distributed randomly between all other players. > >Destroy rule 1.3 >Create a new rule 1.3 under the heading FIRST SACRED LAW with the text: >Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of >players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of >Therms is set to zero. > >Destroy rule 2.1 >Create a new rule 2.1 under the heading SECOND SACRED LAW with the text: >Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things >recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. > >Players are hereby reminded that the above two changes alter the Three >Sacred Laws. Thus, NO votes are vetoes and ABSTAIN votes are like normal N= O >votes. It is therefore important to vote, and since these are minor change= s >players are asked to ABSTAIN rather than vetoing the proposal unless they >see some gaping flaw that was missed in earlier discussion. Of course, thi= s >paragraph has no force, but it is here as a reminder. > Hi...Glotmorf from B Nomic here. Just curious...You talk about players rec= eiving coins. Do coins by default come from the bank if it has any, or are= they materialized out of thin air? I ask because I believe we were talking about an exchange rate between your= coins and our shillings, and the above question plus the part where it say= s coins get destroyed suggests your currency is a lot less stable than ours= ... Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a cyber-anthropologist's blog http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 03:45:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 10:45:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 91506 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 10:45:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 10:45:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 10:45:01 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD2BA699006E; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:44:59 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:45:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304212237080080.000AE2B5@s...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Hi...Glotmorf from B Nomic here. Just curious...You talk about players receiving coins. Do coins by default come from the bank if it has >any, or are they materialized out of thin air? >I ask because I believe we were talking about an exchange rate between your coins and our shillings, and the above question plus the part >where it says coins get destroyed suggests your currency is a lot less stable than ours... The intent had been for coins to be created. Note that both creation and destruction of Coins in these ways will be a fairly uncommon occurrence. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 04:23:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 11:23:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 43328 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 11:23:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 11:23:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 11:23:00 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A612E7A025C; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:22:58 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:23:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Destroy rule 9.1 >Create a new rule 9.1 under the heading THINGS with the text: >Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, points, kudos, and The Bank are >things. Gah! I forgot to put in a later bit about removing points and kudoses. Therefore, I submit the following: If the proposal 'Eco Nomic Stimulus Package' has passed, destroy rule 9.1 and create a new rule 9.1 with the text: Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, and The Bank are things. From drduck@u... Tue Apr 22 05:17:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 12:17:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 32678 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 12:17:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 12:17:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 12:17:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 8627 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 12:17:28 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 12:17:28 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by prop.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3MCHSv30944 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 05:17:28 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@p... Message-ID: <3EA5265D.89D2389@u...> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 04:24:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > I've got it. This is a general fix, that happens to allow the desired > transition. > > > Add a rule 6.8 in the group headed CHANGING THE GAMESTATE reading "Any > player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir > intent to do so on the official mailing list." > If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has passed, destroy Ian Kelly. Just > kidding. Instead, if it has passed, destroy rule 20. > If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has failed, destroy this proposal. > > I hereby ABSTAIN from voting on this proposal. From drduck@u... Tue Apr 22 05:18:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 12:18:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 19547 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 12:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 12:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 12:18:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 6822 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 12:18:13 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 12:18:13 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3MCI9205116 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 05:18:09 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA52687.88E455BE@u...> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 04:24:55 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > Destroy rule 9.1 > Create a new rule 9.1 under the heading THINGS with the text: > Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, points, kudos, and The Bank are > things. > > Destroy rule 9.7 > Create a new rule 9.7 under the heading THINGS with the text: > Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a > player or The Bank. > > Create a new rule 15.0 under the heading THINGS with the text: > When the first proposal, after the creation of this rule, becomes expired, > then at that time, > The Bank will be created, 1,000,000,000 coins will be created in the > possession of The Bank, and > this rule will then be destroyed. > > The comment for the section THINGS will have the following text added to the > end of it: > Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses > all Coins not in the posession of a player. > > Destroy rule 14.2 > > For each point in existence, create a Coin in the posession of the same > player. Destroy all points. > For each kudos in existence, create a Coin in the posession of the same > player. Destroy all kudoses. > > Create a new rule 15.1 under the heading THERMODYNOMIC with the text: > This rule serves no purpose. > Destroy rule 15.1 > Why? Because we can. Let's do the happy-dance. > Gosh, you can really tell I'm up too late causing economic activity. Imagine > what Alan Greenspan goes through. > > Destroy rule 7.3 > Create a new rule 7.3 under the heading DEREGISTRATION with the text: > When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things > are distributed randomly between all other players. > > Destroy rule 1.3 > Create a new rule 1.3 under the heading FIRST SACRED LAW with the text: > Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of > players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of > Therms is set to zero. > > Destroy rule 2.1 > Create a new rule 2.1 under the heading SECOND SACRED LAW with the text: > Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things > recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. > > Players are hereby reminded that the above two changes alter the Three > Sacred Laws. Thus, NO votes are vetoes and ABSTAIN votes are like normal NO > votes. It is therefore important to vote, and since these are minor changes > players are asked to ABSTAIN rather than vetoing the proposal unless they > see some gaping flaw that was missed in earlier discussion. Of course, this > paragraph has no force, but it is here as a reminder. > > I hereby ABSTAIN from voting on this proposal. From unlin_e@y... Tue Apr 22 11:27:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 18:27:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 54543 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 18:27:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 18:27:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11405.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.235) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 18:27:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20030422182721.53038.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:27:21 PDT Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > I've got it. This is a general fix, that happens to allow the desired > transition. > > > Add a rule 6.8 in the group headed CHANGING THE GAMESTATE reading "Any > player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir > intent to do so on the official mailing list." > If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has passed, destroy Ian Kelly. Just > kidding. Instead, if it has passed, destroy rule 20. > If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has failed, destroy this proposal. > > unlin_e hereby votes FOR this proposal. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 13:10:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 20:10:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 68797 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 20:10:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 20:10:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 20:10:10 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1A5B44028A; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:10:13 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:10:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030422182721.53038.qmail@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I've got it. This is a general fix, that happens to allow the desired >> transition. >> >> >> Add a rule 6.8 in the group headed CHANGING THE GAMESTATE reading "Any >> player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir >> intent to do so on the official mailing list." >> If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has passed, destroy Ian Kelly. Just >> kidding. Instead, if it has passed, destroy rule 20. >> If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has failed, destroy this proposal. >> >unlin_e hereby votes FOR this proposal. So does Craig. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 13:10:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 20:10:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 32979 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 20:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 20:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 20:10:43 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1C5107802A0; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:10:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:11:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA52687.88E455BE@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 13:22:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 20:22:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 79668 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 20:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 20:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 20:22:53 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A49FDC50228; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:22:55 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: New idea on internomic activity Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:23:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl What if we declared that in Thermo, any player of Thermo or any other Nomic we want to trade can be At The Market, and that anyone At The Market could give things to anyone else who was there? Of course, all games in question would want to put limits on this - things like passing through customs to allow for tariffs and currency exchanges, or a cost to Market time so people spend some of their time not At The Market? I'm thinking of doing this by adding a few rules as follows: 15.1 Any player may declare emself to be At The Market by announcing on the official mailing list that e wishes to do so. 15.2 Any player of B Nomic may declare emself to be At The Market by stating eir intent to do so on the Thermo mailing list, subject to the rules of B Nomic. 15.3 Players of different Nomics who are At The Market may give their posessions to one another; such posessions are destroyed in one Nomic and created in the other. We can probably find some Things to destroy to make up for this, if we decide to implement it. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 13:58:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 20:58:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 37139 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 20:58:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 20:58:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 20:58:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD0DE030266; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:58:53 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] New idea on internomic activity Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:59:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <04763298-7504-11D7-9D99-000A9577ADE6@t...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >If I understand your ruleset, every time anything is created, something >else must be destroyed; if I go to the Market and give all my stuff to >you, doesn't that either fail or destroy lots of stuff in your game? >Under this wording, at least, you can't decide that you don't want to >take my stuff yet, so you can't necessarily wait for something useless >to destroy... No. In our ruleset, proposals cannot create new Things without destroying other Things. There's nothing stopping Things from being created other ways. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 22 14:03:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:03:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 40013 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:03:35 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5E2CF14E31E; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:03:19 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:03:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304221703.18538.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 April 2003 04:10 pm, Craig wrote: > >> I've got it. This is a general fix, that happens to allow the desired > >> transition. > >> > >> > >> Add a rule 6.8 in the group headed CHANGING THE GAMESTATE reading "Any > >> player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating ei= r > >> intent to do so on the official mailing list." > >> If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has passed, destroy Ian Kelly. Ju= st > >> kidding. Instead, if it has passed, destroy rule 20. > >> If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has failed, destroy this proposal= . > >> > > > >unlin_e hereby votes FOR this proposal. > > So does Craig. So does bd. - --=20 bd mmmm, multitextured donuts.... LIM: with fruit filling? knghtbrd: chocolate cream... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+pa4Wx533NjVSos4RAmaGAJ92TdRxZAdLE053RzM8NMQQF6SITgCfUGDN qnaoM0HoapDE4Qw95tgmSPQ=3D =3D8yoO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 22 14:03:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:03:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 40800 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:03:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:03:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:03:49 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E499514E31E; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:03:33 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:03:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304221703.33199.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 April 2003 04:11 pm, Craig wrote: > I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. I vote for the patch as well :/ - --=20 bd World Domination, of course. And scantily clad females. Who cares if its twenty below? -- Linus Torvalds -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQE+pa4lx533NjVSos4RAgzkAJUbKaRz8qus5wgcCKL0Njf1DQx6AJ41GIVh of2bJh/ZarwzWYQi4fJKRg=3D=3D =3DwFap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 14:06:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:06:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 32544 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:06:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:06:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:06:01 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEBC16100298; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:06:04 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:06:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304221703.33199.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. >I vote for the patch as well :/ Where do you stand on the main proposal? >World Domination, of course. And scantily clad females. Who cares if >its twenty below? -- Linus Torvalds Does this make any sense in context? From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 22 14:08:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:08:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 65730 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:08:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:08:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:08:47 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9D2AE14E321; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:08:31 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:08:30 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304221708.30436.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 April 2003 05:06 pm, Craig wrote: > >> I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. > > > >I vote for the patch as well :/ > > Where do you stand on the main proposal? See above :) > >World Domination, of course. And scantily clad females. Who cares if > >its twenty below? -- Linus Torvalds > > Does this make any sense in context? Nope. It's random. - --=20 bd Shaw's Principle: Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+pa9Ox533NjVSos4RAospAKCM3U3NOcFqqView+yvSY1Zpl/6PACdG2yt vN0tQvQzXmfXDXW43M+zU4c=3D =3DvZIn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 14:11:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:11:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 52446 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:11:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:11:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:11:29 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A004DFF02A2; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:11:32 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:11:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304221708.30436.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. >> > >> >I vote for the patch as well :/ >> >> Where do you stand on the main proposal? >See above :) If you don't care, then abstain explicitly so that when others vote there is goodness. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 22 14:14:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:14:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 76184 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:14:48 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 38B3414E323; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:14:31 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:14:31 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304221714.31306.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 April 2003 05:11 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >> I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. > >> > > >> >I vote for the patch as well :/ > >> > >> Where do you stand on the main proposal? > > > >See above :) > > If you don't care, then abstain explicitly so that when others vote there > is goodness. I voted in another message. FOR, incidentally. - --=20 bd brokee, n: Someone who buys stocks on the advice of a broker. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+pbC3x533NjVSos4RArceAKDG22f2j9r4fF4kJZ4PZ15bCeCX1QCfcXAs /lzt0WZ6nWv+Gop0ureDxxQ=3D =3DwPV7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 14:24:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:24:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 76864 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:24:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:24:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:24:39 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A31AF280242; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:24:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:25:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304221714.31306.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >> I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. >> >> > >> >> >I vote for the patch as well :/ >> >> >> >> Where do you stand on the main proposal? >> > >> >See above :) >> >> If you don't care, then abstain explicitly so that when others vote there >> is goodness. >I voted in another message. FOR, incidentally. Nope. I think you're confusing it with 'transfers', which was submitted right about then. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 14:25:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:25:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 69373 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:12:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:12:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:12:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A051F170242; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:12:49 -0400 To: Subject: Attn Cassie! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:13:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl You will be destroyed early tomorrow morning! From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 22 14:37:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 21:37:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 66718 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 21:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 21:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 21:32:32 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3289714E326; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:32:16 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Final Version of ENSP Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:32:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304221732.15901.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 April 2003 05:25 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >> >> I am FOR both ENSP and the patch. > >> >> > > >> >> >I vote for the patch as well :/ > >> >> > >> >> Where do you stand on the main proposal? > >> > > >> >See above :) > >> > >> If you don't care, then abstain explicitly so that when others vote > >> there is goodness. > > > >I voted in another message. FOR, incidentally. > > Nope. I think you're confusing it with 'transfers', which was submitted > right about then. Oops. I vote FOR that, the banking thing, and the patch. - --=20 bd Q: What's the difference betweeen USL and the Graf Zeppelin? A: The Graf Zeppelin represented cutting edge technology for its time. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+pbTfx533NjVSos4RArVSAJ0V4xFeU0JHat0HBWJTGgDUg9j2iwCguFfb /lomVTpzxGLmEJ1AlRDnMDU=3D =3D209N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Tue Apr 22 15:28:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 22:28:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 93472 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 22:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 22:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 22:26:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 26445 invoked by uid 1006); 22 Apr 2003 22:26:14 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:26:14 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Message-ID: <20030422182614.A26416@a...> References: <3EA5265D.89D2389@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EA5265D.89D2389@u...>; from drduck@u... on Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 04:24:14AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 04:24:14AM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > Craig wrote: > > > I've got it. This is a general fix, that happens to allow the desired > > transition. > > > > > > Add a rule 6.8 in the group headed CHANGING THE GAMESTATE reading "Any > > player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir > > intent to do so on the official mailing list." > > If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has passed, destroy Ian Kelly. Just > > kidding. Instead, if it has passed, destroy rule 20. > > If Ian Kelly's registration proposal has failed, destroy this proposal. > > > > > > I hereby ABSTAIN from voting on this proposal. As so I do hereby do, too. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From cortex@n... Tue Apr 22 15:29:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 22:29:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 27879 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 22:29:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 22:29:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 22:29:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 26456 invoked by uid 1006); 22 Apr 2003 22:29:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:29:15 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn Cassie! Message-ID: <20030422182915.B26416@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 05:13:08PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 05:13:08PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > You will be destroyed early tomorrow morning! I gotta tell ya, Craig, this is NOT the best way to approach girls. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 15:37:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 22:37:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 55547 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 22:37:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 22:37:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 22:37:32 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A42F5260286; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:37:35 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:37:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030422182614.A26416@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >As so I do hereby do, too. Do you care about ENSP or its patch? From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 22 15:53:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 22:53:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 16578 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 22:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 22:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 22:52:46 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C364914E32A; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:52:28 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:52:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304221852.28029.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 April 2003 06:37 pm, Craig wrote: > >As so I do hereby do, too. > > Do you care about ENSP or its patch? Um. Who are you replying to? - --=20 bd La=E7o bacana para panaca bo=E7al.=20 -- pal=EDndromo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+pcerx533NjVSos4RAokHAKC4OrJ/aMe53G1+EXvxiLFqhs6I1wCaA6KQ HXswHEAOWILeCm0leNE20bE=3D =3DKLrU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 16:04:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 23:04:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 79583 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 23:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 23:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 23:03:35 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA4BEE802A2; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:03:39 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:03:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304221852.28029.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >As so I do hereby do, too. >> >> Do you care about ENSP or its patch? >Um. Who are you replying to? Josh, who had just posted a vote on the other chronologically-similar proposal. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 17:28:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 00:28:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 17669 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 00:28:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 00:28:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 00:28:01 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE158F5027E; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:28:05 -0400 To: Subject: Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:28:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl The B Nomic community has done a little bit of discussing of the possibility of trading between Nomics. Although my latest idea is still fairly new, so far I get the impression that the general feeling is that it would be really cool for Thermo to add a Grid like theirs and let players teleport. Any objections? Any proposed implementations? From cortex@n... Tue Apr 22 17:52:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 00:52:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 40968 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 00:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 00:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 00:52:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 26800 invoked by uid 1006); 23 Apr 2003 00:52:19 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:52:19 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Message-ID: <20030422205219.A26777@a...> References: <200304221852.28029.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 07:03:58PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 07:03:58PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >> >As so I do hereby do, too. > >> > >> Do you care about ENSP or its patch? > > >Um. Who are you replying to? > > Josh, who had just posted a vote on the other chronologically-similar > proposal. I do not yet have an opinion, but I'm not apathetic enough to just abstain, yo. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 22 18:15:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 01:15:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 50972 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 01:15:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 01:15:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 01:15:22 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A92E934027E; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:15:26 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:15:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030422205219.A26777@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >As so I do hereby do, too. >> >> >> >> Do you care about ENSP or its patch? >> >> >Um. Who are you replying to? >> >> Josh, who had just posted a vote on the other chronologically-similar >> proposal. >I do not yet have an opinion, but I'm not apathetic enough to just >abstain, yo. Abstention on this would NOT be apathetic; the proposal suggests changing the TSLs. If you abstain, it would be like voting NO. So do take the time to think it through. From cortex@n... Tue Apr 22 18:41:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 01:41:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 79496 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 01:41:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 01:41:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 01:41:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 26934 invoked by uid 1006); 23 Apr 2003 01:41:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:41:42 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ruleset updated Message-ID: <20030422214142.A26813@a...> References: <20030422205219.A26777@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 09:15:45PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 09:15:45PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >> >> >As so I do hereby do, too. > >> >> > >> >> Do you care about ENSP or its patch? > >> > >> >Um. Who are you replying to? > >> > >> Josh, who had just posted a vote on the other chronologically-similar > >> proposal. > > >I do not yet have an opinion, but I'm not apathetic enough to just > >abstain, yo. > > Abstention on this would NOT be apathetic; the proposal suggests changing > the TSLs. If you abstain, it would be like voting NO. So do take the time to > think it through. Good point. Restatement: I do not yet have an opinion, but I'm not apathetic enough to just not do anything at all, which is why I'm, um, not doing anything at all yet. But in an *active* sort of way. I will do *something*, but not quite yet. Yo. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Wed Apr 23 01:29:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 08:29:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 41783 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 08:29:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 08:29:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 08:29:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 22797 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 08:29:33 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 08:29:33 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3N8TX528252 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:29:33 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA6428B.13877F36@u...> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:36:43 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > The B Nomic community has done a little bit of discussing of the possibility > of trading between Nomics. Although my latest idea is still fairly new, so > far I get the impression that the general feeling is that it would be really > cool for Thermo to add a Grid like theirs and let players teleport. Any > objections? Any proposed implementations? > I actually like the idea of a MarketNomic better. Too much cross-over could become dangerous to our game. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 23 03:47:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 10:47:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 27358 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 10:47:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 10:47:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 10:47:15 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF31AF25006E; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:47:13 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:47:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA6428B.13877F36@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> The B Nomic community has done a little bit of discussing of the possibility >> of trading between Nomics. Although my latest idea is still fairly new, so >> far I get the impression that the general feeling is that it would be really >> cool for Thermo to add a Grid like theirs and let players teleport. Any >> objections? Any proposed implementations? >I actually like the idea of a MarketNomic better. Too much cross-over could become dangerous to >our game. I imagine the B Nomic folks will too - there just hasn't been much discussion yet. Should we implement my Market proto, or maybe make a seperate Nomic Hub where multiple Nomics can trade? From drduck@u... Wed Apr 23 05:37:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 12:37:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 69081 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 12:37:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 12:37:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 12:37:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 2528 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 12:37:43 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 12:37:43 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3NCbhY10428 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 05:37:43 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA67CB9.305E37AD@u...> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 04:44:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> The B Nomic community has done a little bit of discussing of the possibility > >> of trading between Nomics. Although my latest idea is still fairly new, so > >> far I get the impression that the general feeling is that it would be really > >> cool for Thermo to add a Grid like theirs and let players teleport. Any > >> objections? Any proposed implementations? > > >I actually like the idea of a MarketNomic better. Too much cross-over could become dangerous > to > >our game. > > I imagine the B Nomic folks will too - there just hasn't been much discussion yet. Should we > implement my Market proto, or maybe make a seperate Nomic Hub where multiple Nomics can trade? > > Wasn't there an older attempt at a "TradeNomic"? Seems like that would be a decent starting point for any such activities. I can't seem to find it though, only stuff on InterNomic. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 23 11:57:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 18:57:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 89947 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 18:57:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 18:57:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 18:57:21 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2119410250; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:57:21 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:57:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA67CB9.305E37AD@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> The B Nomic community has done a little bit of discussing of the possibility >> >> of trading between Nomics. Although my latest idea is still fairly new, so >> >> far I get the impression that the general feeling is that it would be really >> >> cool for Thermo to add a Grid like theirs and let players teleport. Any >> >> objections? Any proposed implementations? >> >> >I actually like the idea of a MarketNomic better. Too much cross-over could become dangerous >> to >> >our game. >> >> I imagine the B Nomic folks will too - there just hasn't been much discussion yet. Should we >> implement my Market proto, or maybe make a seperate Nomic Hub where multiple Nomics can trade? >Wasn't there an older attempt at a "TradeNomic"? Seems like that would be a decent starting >point for any such activities. I can't seem to find it though, only stuff on InterNomic. I can't find any info on it, so we'll have to start from scratch. Does everyone feel it would be enough of a Good Thing to merit implementation? If so, I will try to get one started, but I am not availible to administer it and be the Speaker of Thermo at the same time. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 23 13:55:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 20:55:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 76522 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 20:55:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 20:55:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 20:55:14 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADB412A5023E; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:55:16 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn Cassie! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:55:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >You will be destroyed early tomorrow morning! This has now come to pass. Cassie is no longer a player. There is one more Therm in the game. This means, btw, that 'transfers' has passed, as every player has voted on it. The ruleset will be amended accordingly. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 23 14:01:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 21:01:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 39990 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 21:01:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 21:01:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 21:01:24 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF26CBB0232; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:01:26 -0400 To: Subject: Speaker Transition Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:01:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else seemed to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give em the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back if e really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it would surprise me very much. From cortex@n... Wed Apr 23 15:06:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 22:06:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 2666 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 22:06:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 22:06:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 22:06:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 30208 invoked by uid 1006); 23 Apr 2003 22:06:45 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:06:45 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List Message-ID: <20030423180645.A30183@a...> References: <3EA67CB9.305E37AD@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:57:47PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:57:47PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > I can't find any info on it, so we'll have to start from scratch. Does > everyone feel it would be enough of a Good Thing to merit implementation? If > so, I will try to get one started, but I am not availible to administer it > and be the Speaker of Thermo at the same time. I like the idea of trade, and like someone else I prefer the notion of the Market as something we can interface with; I'm not so hot on the grid notion, seems like we'd be emulating more than creating. And the mention (from a message Craig forwarded from the other list) of our economic instability seems like a non-issue. Who needs an official exchange rate? Let the market bear what it will! :) Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 23 15:25:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 22:25:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 42453 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 22:25:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 22:25:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 22:25:34 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2E1E860258; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:25:37 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Summary of Discussion of InterNomic Activity on the B Nomic List Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:26:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030423180645.A30183@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> I can't find any info on it, so we'll have to start from scratch. Does >> everyone feel it would be enough of a Good Thing to merit implementation? If >> so, I will try to get one started, but I am not availible to administer it >> and be the Speaker of Thermo at the same time. >I like the idea of trade, and like someone else I prefer the notion of >the Market as something we can interface with; I'm not so hot on the >grid notion, seems like we'd be emulating more than creating. >And the mention (from a message Craig forwarded from the other list) of >our economic instability seems like a non-issue. Who needs an official >exchange rate? Let the market bear what it will! :) An official exchange rate has one advantage. If A is a player of Thermo, and B is a player of B Nomic, then A and B can only trade if they have a currency in common. If A wishes to buy B's Siren Bait, e'd better be prepared to fork over some B Nomic Shillings - Coins are not useful in B Nomic. If ENSP fails, they both might want Points, but a Thermo point is so much harder to come by. Now, if B knew that upon leaving the Market e would instantly get eir Coin replaced with 750 BNS (just as an example, I'm not sure what the rate should be), they would have a deal. Obviously if A thought it was worth at least one Coin to em to have two Siren Baits, and B thought e could better use 750 BNS than the Siren Baits - which e probably could, as I don't think Siren Bait is worth that much - then they would have a deal. Since the response seems to be generally favorable, I've begun drafting rules for a Market Nomic. It's a challenge. Anyone who wants to help, let's discuss this off-list. Since we've started munging the header, I should mention that my address is ragnarok at pobox dot com. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 23 16:33:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 23:33:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 55409 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 23:33:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 23:33:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 23:33:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 26253 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 23:33:33 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 23:33:33 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3NNXWX04811 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:33:32 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA7167C.D8062190@u...> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:41:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker Transition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else seemed > to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give em > the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back if e > really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it would > surprise me very much. > Since we didn't actually have a real vote on this, I'd like for the others to speak up and present any objections. If any objections do show up I'll give the Office back to Craig. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 23 16:35:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Apr 2003 23:35:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 97125 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2003 23:35:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Apr 2003 23:35:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 2003 23:35:55 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A35FB2FB006E; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:35:59 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker Transition Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:36:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA7167C.D8062190@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else seemed >> to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give em >> the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back if e >> really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it would >> surprise me very much. >Since we didn't actually have a real vote on this, I'd like for the others to speak up and >present any objections. If any objections do show up I'll give the Office back to Craig. That makes a lot of sense. From cortex@n... Wed Apr 23 19:03:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 24 Apr 2003 02:03:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 35593 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 02:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 02:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 02:03:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 30861 invoked by uid 1006); 24 Apr 2003 02:03:35 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:03:35 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker Transition Message-ID: <20030423220335.A30843@a...> References: <3EA7167C.D8062190@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EA7167C.D8062190@u...>; from drduck@u... on Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 03:41:00PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 03:41:00PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > Craig wrote: > > > When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else seemed > > to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give em > > the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back if e > > really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it would > > surprise me very much. > > > > Since we didn't actually have a real vote on this, I'd like for the others to speak up and > present any objections. If any objections do show up I'll give the Office back to Craig. I have no objections. A happy Speaker is an efficient Speaker. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 03:26:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 10:26:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 66930 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 10:26:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 10:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 10:26:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABDE1257025C; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 06:26:38 -0400 To: Subject: A Vote Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 06:27:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the stenotype take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if so, the stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit a take 4. Whee. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 03:33:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 10:33:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 29777 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 10:33:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 10:33:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 10:33:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 30087 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 10:33:13 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 10:33:13 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OAXC229294 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:33:12 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA7B125.D76EE931@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:40:53 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker Transition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else seemed > to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give em > the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back if e > really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it would > surprise me very much. > I'd like to invite you all to http://www.geocities.com/ducker756/thermo.html It's still preliminary, but please let me know if I've missed anything. Also, Craig, can you free up the permissions on the ruleset.txt file? From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 03:52:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 10:52:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 31515 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 10:52:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 10:52:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 10:52:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 31908 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 10:52:18 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 10:52:18 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OAqIX02479 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:52:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA7C1E2.A30AD5ED@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:52:18 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the stenotype > take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if so, the > stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit a take 4. > Whee. > It appears I also, have neglected to vote on this Proposal, and so: I hereby cast my vote AGAINST "the stenotype take 3" . It's point seemed to be to relieve Craig of a bit of the effort involved with being Speaker, which now being in my possession, I don't feel over-burdened by. I also appear to have neglected to vote on another proposal, so: I hereby cast my vote to ABSTAIN on the "minor ensp fix" proposal. Just matching up with my ENSP vote. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 04:07:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 11:07:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 79765 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 11:07:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 11:07:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 11:07:32 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A572BA0A006E; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:07:30 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker Transition Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:08:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA7B125.D76EE931@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else seemed >> to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give em >> the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back if e >> really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it would >> surprise me very much. >I'd like to invite you all to http://www.geocities.com/ducker756/thermo.html Great. Love the ready.gov graphic at the top! >Also, Craig, can you free up the permissions on the ruleset.txt file? As owner, I don't have permission to edit the proposals file, so I don't think so. I'll see what I can do, though. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 04:09:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 11:09:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 4136 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 11:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 11:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 11:09:32 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5EA1325023E; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:09:30 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] A Vote Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:10:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA7C1E2.A30AD5ED@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the stenotype >> take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if so, the >> stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit a take 4. >> Whee. >It appears I also, have neglected to vote on this Proposal, and so: I hereby cast my vote >AGAINST "the stenotype take 3" . It's point seemed to be to relieve Craig of a bit of the >effort involved with being Speaker, which now being in my possession, I don't feel over-burdened >by. Not at all. There is currently NOBODY in charge of tracking CFJs. We need to give that job to somebody, whether it is the Speaker or the Stenographer or the Grand Poobah. I don't really care who does it, provided the ruleset sees to it that it gets done. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 04:42:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 11:42:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 68613 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 11:42:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 11:42:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 11:42:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 2294 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 11:42:32 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 11:42:32 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OBgW216923 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:42:32 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA7CDA9.B394EE9@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:42:33 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the > stenotype > >> take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if so, the > >> stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit a take 4. > >> Whee. > > >It appears I also, have neglected to vote on this Proposal, and so: I > hereby cast my vote > >AGAINST "the stenotype take 3" . It's point seemed to be to relieve Craig > of a bit of the > >effort involved with being Speaker, which now being in my possession, I > don't feel over-burdened > >by. > > Not at all. There is currently NOBODY in charge of tracking CFJs. We need to > give that job to somebody, whether it is the Speaker or the Stenographer or > the Grand Poobah. I don't really care who does it, provided the ruleset sees > to it that it gets done. > I'd been assuming that was a Speaker's task, I'd completely forgotten what it was about. Oh, well, there is still the question of whether the proposal is even valid... From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 04:45:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 11:45:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 71903 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 11:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 11:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 11:45:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 5809 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 11:45:18 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 11:45:18 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OBjI210479 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:45:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA7CE4F.EABE74AC@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:45:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker Transition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> When the game began, I volunteered to be Speaker because nobody else > seemed > >> to want to. Dr Ducker is doing most of the job anyway, so I hereby give > em > >> the Office of the Speaker. It is always possible for em to give it back > if e > >> really doesn't want it, but e is commendably doing my job as is, so it > would > >> surprise me very much. > > >I'd like to invite you all to > http://www.geocities.com/ducker756/thermo.html > > Great. Love the ready.gov graphic at the top! > Yeah, I find that particular one quite amusing... > > >Also, Craig, can you free up the permissions on the ruleset.txt file? > > As owner, I don't have permission to edit the proposals file, so I don't > think so. I'll see what I can do, though. > From cortex@n... Thu Apr 24 08:19:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 15:19:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 40114 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 15:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 15:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 15:19:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 905 invoked by uid 1006); 24 Apr 2003 15:19:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:19:47 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote Message-ID: <20030424111947.A896@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the stenotype > take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if so, the > stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit a take 4. > Whee. Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive feelings FOR this proposal as well. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 08:46:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 15:46:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 65204 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 15:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 15:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 15:46:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 2284 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 15:46:02 -0000 Received: from turbo.sonic.net (208.201.224.26) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 15:46:02 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by turbo.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OFk2V12231 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:46:02 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA806BE.606D675E@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:46:06 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote References: <20030424111947.A896@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the stenotype > > take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if so, the > > stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit a take 4. > > Whee. > > Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and > beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive > feelings FOR this proposal as well. > > Josh > Well if we can get bd and unlin_e to cast eir votes as well, we needn't worry about the effects of Ian's reg. proposal. Course, it still doesn't address the sequencing issue. I'm not sure about it, but since the proposal destroys itself _before_ "take 2", it seems that it might not have the opportunity to destroy "take 2", and therefore wouldn't be balancing things out, and would be back to being a TSL violator. From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 24 09:28:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 16:28:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 83870 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 16:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 16:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 16:28:22 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1CDA214E345; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:26:33 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:26:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030424111947.A896@a...> <3EA806BE.606D675E@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EA806BE.606D675E@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304241226.31905.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 April 2003 11:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > cortex wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the > > > stenotype take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and = if > > > so, the stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to subm= it > > > a take 4. Whee. > > > > Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and > > beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive > > feelings FOR this proposal as well. > > > > Josh > > Well if we can get bd and unlin_e to cast eir votes as well, we needn't > worry about the effects of Ian's reg. proposal. Er. What was the prop again? - --=20 bd Vulcans worship peace above all. -- McCoy, "Return to Tomorrow", stardate 4768.3 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qBA3x533NjVSos4RAhFhAJ9zAgYgKxL38k4IxWrv2k2sIekERQCglv6B CLHtr/LZjI+HwgGt0bhp9LE=3D =3DSQ6H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 09:55:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 16:55:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 412 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 16:31:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 16:31:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 16:31:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 13479 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 16:31:27 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 16:31:27 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OGVR217356 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:31:27 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA81164.A6D705D@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:31:32 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote References: <20030424111947.A896@a...> <3EA806BE.606D675E@u...> <200304241226.31905.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 24 April 2003 11:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > cortex wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the > > > > stenotype take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if > > > > so, the stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit > > > > a take 4. Whee. > > > > > > Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and > > > beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive > > > feelings FOR this proposal as well. > > > > > > Josh > > > > Well if we can get bd and unlin_e to cast eir votes as well, we needn't > > worry about the effects of Ian's reg. proposal. > > Er. What was the prop again? > "the stenotype take 3" #14 in my ThermoProposals.html From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 10:15:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 17:15:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 54997 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 16:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 16:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 16:50:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 17724 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 16:50:21 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 16:50:21 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3OGoL216271 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:50:21 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EA815D3.26BC82D5@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:50:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote References: <20030424111947.A896@a...> <3EA806BE.606D675E@u...> <200304241226.31905.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 24 April 2003 11:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > cortex wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the > > > > stenotype take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and if > > > > so, the stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to submit > > > > a take 4. Whee. > > > > > > Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and > > > beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive > > > feelings FOR this proposal as well. > > > > > > Josh > > > > Well if we can get bd and unlin_e to cast eir votes as well, we needn't > > worry about the effects of Ian's reg. proposal. > > Er. What was the prop again? > "the stenotype take 3" #14 in my ThermoProposals.html (this may be a dupe, cuz it doesn't look like the first ones going through for some reason) From unlin_e@y... Thu Apr 24 10:31:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 17:31:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 49359 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 17:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 17:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.236) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 17:31:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20030424173102.54945.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:31:02 PDT Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3EA81164.A6D705D@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday 24 April 2003 11:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > cortex wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the > > > > > stenotype take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, and > if > > > > > so, the stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll have to > submit > > > > > a take 4. Whee. > > > > > > > > Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and > > > > beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive > > > > feelings FOR this proposal as well. > > > > > > > > Josh > > > > > > Well if we can get bd and unlin_e to cast eir votes as well, we needn't > > > worry about the effects of Ian's reg. proposal. > > > > Er. What was the prop again? > > > > "the stenotype take 3" #14 in my ThermoProposals.html > > unlin_e votes FOR this proposal. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 24 12:33:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 19:33:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 40108 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 19:33:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 19:33:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 19:33:22 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D115B14E349; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:30:55 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] A Vote Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:30:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200304241226.31905.bdonlan@b...> <3EA81164.A6D705D@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EA81164.A6D705D@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304241530.54901.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 April 2003 12:31 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday 24 April 2003 11:46 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > cortex wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 06:27:12AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > > It appears I have not yet voted in my own proposal. I am FOR the > > > > > stenotype take 3. Of course, Ian might become a player tomorrow, > > > > > and if so, the stenotype take 3 ceases to be Pending. Then I'll > > > > > have to submit a take 4. Whee. > > > > > > > > Well now, it just so happens that, after some soul-searching and > > > > beer-drinking, I've discovered in myself a wellspring of positive > > > > feelings FOR this proposal as well. > > > > > > > > Josh > > > > > > Well if we can get bd and unlin_e to cast eir votes as well, we needn= 't > > > worry about the effects of Ian's reg. proposal. > > > > Er. What was the prop again? > > "the stenotype take 3" #14 in my ThermoProposals.html Oh. I vote FOR this. - --=20 bd BOFH excuse #248: Too much radiation coming from the soil. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qDtux533NjVSos4RAgzYAJ0ShIxpJ1FZkWdr9hj70YibIvoZHACfT8y3 DbiURu+K52Hm3BGXHB6maEA=3D =3DTSwM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 13:37:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 20:37:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 98692 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 20:37:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 20:37:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 20:37:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AB0115E1017E; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:37:21 -0400 To: Subject: Stenotype Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:37:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Looks like we've got us a Stenotype now. The new Speaker is hereby reminded that the proposal calls upon em to choose a random Stenographer. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 14:07:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 21:07:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 59733 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 21:07:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 21:07:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 21:07:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A22415BE02A0; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:07:48 -0400 To: Subject: Ian's proposal Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:08:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl It would appear that Ian's registration proposal has failed. I hereby encourage em to submit a new one. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 14:20:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 21:20:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 79901 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 21:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 21:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 21:20:17 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A51411DD0282; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:20:20 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Speaker Transition Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:20:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA7B125.D76EE931@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Also, Craig, can you free up the permissions on the ruleset.txt file? Doesn't seem doable. I would encourage you to create your own ruleset file on there; I will then delete mine. Also, it feels kinda weird to me that the Speaker doesn't have moderator privileges. Is that just me, or should I grant them to the Doctor? From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 14:36:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 24 Apr 2003 21:36:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 19387 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 21:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2003 21:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2003 21:36:25 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8DA17A30226; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:36:26 -0400 To: , Subject: Nomic Market will begin whenever Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:36:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I have created a mailing list for a new Nomic Market. Both B Nomic and ThermodyNomic are encouraged to petition for membership. In fact, in Thermo, I hereby submit the following: A rule 0.5 will be created, reading "There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market." ThermodyNomic will officially ask to be recognized as a participant by the Nomic Market. This proposal shall be destroyed. Anyway, for now the Market will use the mailing list nomicmarket@yahoogroups.com and its web archives will be at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nomicmarket/ , if anyone with the capability to host mailing lists wishes to get it off of yahoogroups, I'm cool with that; just let me know. The rules for the Nomic Market will be as follows: Any player of any Nomic on the List may declare emself to be at the Market, subject to the rules of eir home Nomic. Such a declaration must be made on the Nomic Market mailing list and on the list of the home Nomic; archives of both must be publicly availible. While at the Market, all players may give their in-game posessions to one another; such things are destroyed in one game and created in another. Any player who is at the Market continuously for one week without trading any goods is considered to leave the Market. While at the Market, all players are bound by the rules of the Market and of their home Nomics; anything not prohibited by either of these is permitted. Since this is a Nomic-related activity, it is only natural that the rules be amendable; therefore this document may be amended if and only if a proposed change has the support of two thirds of all who are currently at the Market. One exception is that the list of participating Nomics may be amended whenever a Nomic that wishes to be added demonstrates that its rules and archives are publicly availible and formally asks the Administrator to add it. The list of participating Nomics is below. The Administrator shall be an individual responsible for tracking all changes to the Nomic Market rules; currently it is the entity known as Craig. (There are no currently participating Nomics) From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 17:54:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 3697 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 16012 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P0sUd31623; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:30 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic , dice@p... Subject: Random Selection for Stenographer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 #P thermodynomic@y... #P drduck@u... #S 5 #D 1 #R 1 #L 1 #T Selection of Stenotype #C The results will be assigned as such: #C Result Assigned Stenotype #C 1 bd #C 2 Craig #C 3 Dr Ducker #C 4 Josh #C 5 unlin_e From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 24 17:55:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 00:55:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 14916 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 00:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:55:43 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8A52A14E0C5; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:53:13 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Random Selection for Stenographer Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:53:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304242053.12679.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 April 2003 08:54 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > #P thermodynomic@y... > #P drduck@u... > #S 5 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #T Selection of Stenotype > #C The results will be assigned as such: > #C Result Assigned Stenotype > #C 1 bd > #C 2 Craig > #C 3 Dr Ducker > #C 4 Josh > #C 5 unlin_e You have to send it to the dice server's email. - --=20 bd Men take only their needs into consideration -- never their abilities. -- Napoleon Bonaparte -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qIb4x533NjVSos4RAlrMAKDKcEUa+N8nlPfpW+jT/Bp716KjUQCcDOcP edaB/mRADDPdxKbgkTvqQ/Q=3D =3DCCmt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 18:00:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 01:00:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 41820 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:00:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 01:00:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:00:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 16912 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:00:31 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:00:31 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P10V923455 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:31 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA888BF.459BD58F@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:47 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ian's proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > It would appear that Ian's registration proposal has failed. I hereby > encourage em to submit a new one. > No, actually it won't expire for about another three hours. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 18:02:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 01:02:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 37482 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 01:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:02:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 17133 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:02:11 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:02:11 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P12Bd03954 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:02:11 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA88923.B1523205@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:02:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Random Selection for Stenographer References: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> <200304242053.12679.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 24 April 2003 08:54 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > #P thermodynomic@y... > > #P drduck@u... > > #S 5 > > #D 1 > > #R 1 > > #L 1 > > #T Selection of Stenotype > > #C The results will be assigned as such: > > #C Result Assigned Stenotype > > #C 1 bd > > #C 2 Craig > > #C 3 Dr Ducker > > #C 4 Josh > > #C 5 unlin_e > > You have to send it to the dice server's email. > - -- I did, though I'm not sure the results are able to get through with the current list settings. Craig, can you confirm if the dice@p... emails are allowed through to the list? From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 18:04:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 01:04:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 39907 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 01:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:04:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 17383 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:04:17 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:04:17 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P14Hd05609 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:04:17 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA889A1.7C9F1B8E@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:04:33 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Speaker Transition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Also, Craig, can you free up the permissions on the ruleset.txt file? > > Doesn't seem doable. I would encourage you to create your own ruleset file > on there; I will then delete mine. > Also, it feels kinda weird to me that the Speaker doesn't have moderator > privileges. Is that just me, or should I grant them to the Doctor? > I have now upped the new official ruleset to the file ruleset.txt. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 18:11:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 01:11:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 89415 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:11:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 01:11:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:11:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 18485 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:11:20 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:11:20 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P1BJ927900 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:11:19 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:11:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Dice server wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker > Rolls also sent to: > thermodynomic@y... > drduck@u... > > # The results will be assigned as such: > # Result Assigned Stenotype > # 1 bd > # 2 Craig > # 3 Dr Ducker > # 4 Josh > # 5 unlin_e > > No. of sides on every die: 5 > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > No. of dice rolls requested: 1 > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > 1 > > Information on the dice server: > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > The dice server is provided by: > > Shadow Island Games > http://www.pbm.com/ > > Original message follows: > > Return-Path: > > Delivered-To: dice@p... > > Received: (qmail 15869 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:55 -0000 > > Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:55 -0000 > > Received: (qmail 16016 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 -0000 > > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 -0000 > > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P0sUd31623; > > Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:30 -0700 > > X-envelope-info: > > Sender: drduck@s... > > Message-ID: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> > > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:46 -0700 > > From: Doctor Ducker > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: ThermoDyNomic , dice@p... > > Subject: Random Selection for Stenographer > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > #P thermodynomic@y... > > #P drduck@u... > > #S 5 > > #D 1 > > #R 1 > > #L 1 > > #T Selection of Stenotype > > #C The results will be assigned as such: > > #C Result Assigned Stenotype > > #C 1 bd > > #C 2 Craig > > #C 3 Dr Ducker > > #C 4 Josh > > #C 5 unlin_e > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.3ia > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBPqiHaz8NitsTFjcVAQEIwAQAkzpNqn3sDaedr7SAVbO4gQKZtIYvmUAs > Yp//R17bprJR/nmOHoPyjsklkuwKT1br/Kpbt0ADf3PialPsUrM7cI/Klf8DczNI > ySlZM7LpmZ8Gb7EtSbp99ZT+H1VonTNYJQzlqqezDeIwrBGsk70sXIrXdJwxW8Pz > WUTc77davMc= > =HdYb > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- This doesn't appear to have been allowed into the list, so I'm forwarding it. Also, I note that the random selection has chosen bd to hold the Office of the Stenotype. From bdonlan@b... Thu Apr 24 18:13:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 01:13:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 42900 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 01:13:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 01:13:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 01:13:54 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 64B6814E23F; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:11:25 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:11:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304242111.24690.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 April 2003 09:11 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Dice server wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker > > Rolls also sent to: > > thermodynomic@y... > > drduck@u... > > > > # The results will be assigned as such: > > # Result Assigned Stenotype > > # 1 bd > > # 2 Craig > > # 3 Dr Ducker > > # 4 Josh > > # 5 unlin_e > > > > No. of sides on every die: 5 > > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > > No. of dice rolls requested: 1 > > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > > > 1 > > > > Information on the dice server: > > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > > Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > > subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > > > The dice server is provided by: > > > > Shadow Island Games > > http://www.pbm.com/ > > > > Original message follows: > > > Return-Path: > > > Delivered-To: dice@p... > > > Received: (qmail 15869 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:55 > > > -0000 Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > > > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:55 -0000 > > > Received: (qmail 16016 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 > > > -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > > > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 -0000 > > > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net > > > [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id > > > h3P0sUd31623; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:30 -0700 > > > X-envelope-info: > > > Sender: drduck@s... > > > Message-ID: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> > > > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:46 -0700 > > > From: Doctor Ducker > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > > > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > To: ThermoDyNomic , dice@p... > > > Subject: Random Selection for Stenographer > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > #P thermodynomic@y... > > > #P drduck@u... > > > #S 5 > > > #D 1 > > > #R 1 > > > #L 1 > > > #T Selection of Stenotype > > > #C The results will be assigned as such: > > > #C Result Assigned Stenotype > > > #C 1 bd > > > #C 2 Craig > > > #C 3 Dr Ducker > > > #C 4 Josh > > > #C 5 unlin_e > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: 2.6.3ia > > Charset: noconv > > > > iQCVAwUBPqiHaz8NitsTFjcVAQEIwAQAkzpNqn3sDaedr7SAVbO4gQKZtIYvmUAs > > Yp//R17bprJR/nmOHoPyjsklkuwKT1br/Kpbt0ADf3PialPsUrM7cI/Klf8DczNI > > ySlZM7LpmZ8Gb7EtSbp99ZT+H1VonTNYJQzlqqezDeIwrBGsk70sXIrXdJwxW8Pz > > WUTc77davMc=3D > > =3DHdYb > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > This doesn't appear to have been allowed into the list, so I'm forwarding > it. > > Also, I note that the random selection has chosen bd to hold the Office o= f > the Stenotype. Blah. I'll go make a script or something tomorrow. - --=20 bd QOTD: "He's on the same bus, but he's sure as hell got a different ticket." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qIs8x533NjVSos4RAhPjAJ98G2WmuFuf2UmT524+8xnfI+6wkQCfTMGe 1QvbLbUMFed4E2mv2IngGAI=3D =3DPgU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 19:00:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 02:00:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 5261 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 02:00:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 02:00:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 02:00:04 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6A912100294; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:00:09 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ian's proposal Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:00:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EA888BF.459BD58F@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> It would appear that Ian's registration proposal has failed. I hereby >> encourage em to submit a new one. >No, actually it won't expire for about another three hours. Right. I did the time zone change backwards. From ragnarok@p... Thu Apr 24 19:03:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 02:03:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 97544 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 02:03:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 02:03:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 02:03:33 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A77A12200294; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:03:38 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:04:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >This doesn't appear to have been allowed into the list, so I'm forwarding it. Whoops. Non-member mails aren't OK. I'm fixing that, so the dice server can send us stuff. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 19:07:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 02:07:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 48724 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 02:07:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 02:07:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 02:07:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 26983 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 02:07:08 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 02:07:08 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P278L15136; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:07:08 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA8985D.CFD108F@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:07:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dice Server , ThermoDyNomic Subject: test of dice server access Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 #P thermodynomic@y... #P drduck@u... #S 5 #D 1 #R 1 #L 1 #T Re: Test of Dice server access #C This isn't a real dice throw, just to find out if the new list settings do what we want. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 19:11:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 02:11:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 35593 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 02:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 02:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 02:11:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 27638 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 02:11:09 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 02:11:09 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P2B9224985; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:11:09 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA8994E.373B7AA5@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:11:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dice Server , ThermoDyNomic Subject: Oops, I used the wrong address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com #P drduck@u... #S 5 #D 1 #R 1 #L 1 #T Re: Oops, I used the wrong address #C Another test From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 23:42:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 06:42:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 81303 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 06:42:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 06:42:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 06:42:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 2851 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 06:42:56 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 06:42:56 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P6guo01639 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:42:56 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA8D907.FA888F93@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:43:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Oops, I used the wrong address References: <3EA8994E.373B7AA5@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #P drduck@u... > #S 5 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #T Re: Oops, I used the wrong address > #C Another test > Okay, still doesn't seem to be working. From drduck@u... Thu Apr 24 23:49:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 06:49:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 79784 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 06:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 06:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 06:49:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 3559 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 06:49:07 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 06:49:07 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P6n7n15881 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:49:07 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA8DA79.5B7CC8A2@u...> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:49:30 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ian's proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > It would appear that Ian's registration proposal has failed. I hereby > encourage em to submit a new one. > Okay, NOW, the proposal has expired/failed. I would also like to encourage a new submission. From drduck@u... Fri Apr 25 00:11:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 07:11:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 79179 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 07:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 07:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 07:11:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 6048 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 07:11:25 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 07:11:25 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3P7BPn22577 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:11:25 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA8DFB4.F6C46C57@u...> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:11:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Call For Judgement: On the possession of a registration proposal. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 We've now had this detail come up twice, and no-one has yet to do anything about it. The question is: Who, if anyone, possesses a registration proposal? I submit this CFJ to hopefully resolve this issue. A registration proposal is identical to a proposal in all respects, except, that until such time as it passes, it is not a Thing, and therefore need not be possessed by anyone or anything. A registration proposal which passes becomes a normal proposal, and thus a Thing, in the possession of the submitter of the proposal. A registration proposal which fails to pass also fails to become a Thing. bd, as the holder of the Office of the Stenotype, please randomly assign a Judge for this CFJ. From orcinaspacesuit@h... Fri Apr 25 01:32:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: orcinaspacesuit@h... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 08:32:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 47638 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 08:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 08:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 08:32:51 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:32:51 -0700 Received: from 130.184.174.194 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:32:51 GMT X-Originating-Email: [orcinaspacesuit@h...] To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: B Nomic - Joining the market Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:32:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Apr 2003 08:32:51.0304 (UTC) FILETIME=[42631E80:01C30B05] From: "Orc In A Spacesuit" X-Originating-IP: [130.184.174.194] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public I'm sending this to the ThermodyNomic mailing list as well, and hoping it doesn't bounce. I'm doing this so the Thermo players can get an idea of what they might be trading for (see the list below), and also to make sure Craig gets this, as I'm not sure if he's subscribed to the B Nomic business list. For the Thermo players, a quick note on Delimiters: '{{' and '}}' are used to delimit text, whether the body of an entire proposal or a subsection of that proposal. '[[' and ']]' are used for comment text. The rest isn't that important. This proposal is something to get us started with Nomic Market; it depends on the suggestions I made earlier regarding the Market rules being implemented, as well as an additional change: Just as a Nomic can join Nomic Market, it should be able to leave. Of course, any Nomic can just ignore Nomic Market, but it'd be easier this way. In any case, I'm writing contingencies into this in case the Nomic Market ruleset every goes nutty. I propose the following: {{__Free Trade v1.0__ Create the following rule: {{__Going to Market__{*Market, InterNomic*} A. Definitions An entity who is a player in any Nomic, and is At the Market, may be referred to as a "Trader" in B Nomic. In addition, a "B Nomic Trader" ia a Trader who's Home Nomic in Nomic Market is B Nomic. B. Opening and Closing Shop B Nomic may be either "Open for Business" or "Closed for Business". When B Nomic becomes Open for Business, B Nomic shall ask the Administrator of Nomic Market to add B Nomic to Nomic Market's List, if it is not already on it. When B Nomic becomes Closed for Business, B Nomic shall ask the Administrator of Nomic Market to remove B Nomic from Nomic Market's List, if it is on it. No B Nomic Trader may give or receive any object in Nomic Market while B Nomic is Closed for Business. If such does occur, the effects in B Nomic of that happening do not occur. This paragraph takes precedence over the rest of this rule, and over all other rules. When an SOE is declared, B Nomic becomes Closed for Business. C. Player Joining If B Nomic is Open for Business, any player in B Nomic who is Off Leave may become At the Market in Nomic Market, subject to the rules of Nomic Market. D. Trade Control There exists a List of Exportable Goods, or LEG, as a part of the B Nomic gamestate. It is a list of objects that B Nomic Traders may give to Traders, subject to the rules of Nomic Market and the rules of the Home Nomic of the receiving Trader. B Nomic Traders may not give objects to Traders if those objects are not on the LEG, and/or are not in eir possession. When a B Nomic Trader gives an object to a Trader, it is destroyed in B Nomic. There exists a Table of Importable Goods, or TIG, as a part of the B Nomic gamestate. It is a list of objects that Traders may give to B Nomic Traders, and a list of events that happen upon that object being given to a B Nomic Trader. Objects not on the TIG may not be given to B Nomic Players. If an object not on the TIG is given to a B Nomic Trader, then the effects that occur are: "The object is turned into FNURD, has its Contents set to the name and any other properties it may have had prior to becoming a FNURD, and loses all other properties it may have. It is placed in the possession of the receiving B Nomic Trader." FNURDS are passable carryable objects, and have the property "Contents". [[Bascially, should you somehow aquire a non-allowed item, it'll get turned into junk, the the data about it is saved in case the junk ever becomes valuable.]] }} [[End rule __Going to Market__]] Set the LEG to the following: {{ Beverage Sledge-O-Matic Ball of Wax Ball of Earwax Towel Big Stick Pinball Gun Small Lump of Scrap Metal Large Lump of Scrap Metal Gnome Bread Olive Beer Can Ice Cube Ice Sphere Boomcage Can of Whoopass Hand Barney Insta-Rule }} [[End LEG]] [[I'd love to see what other Nomics might do with a Hand or an Insta-Rule, or see someone somehow possess and then trade off Barney.]] Set the TIG to the following: {{ Object Events Coin The Coin loses all properties it may have. It then becomes a passable carrable object, and is placed in the receiving player's possession. }} [[End TIG]] [[I don't know what else might be out there, in Thermodynomic or elsewhere. And we don't want to let things in here uncontrolled. And we'll let everything else in on a case-by-case basis. Everything else is FNURD until then.]] B Nomic becomes Open for Business. }} [[End prop __Free Trade v1.0__]] This is very open to revision. Comments, questions, rotten fruit? Orc in a Spacesuit _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 25 08:24:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 15:24:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 77701 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 15:24:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 15:24:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 15:24:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2003 15:24:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:24:45 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: B Nomic - Joining the market Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2611 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > I'm sending this to the ThermodyNomic mailing list as well, and hoping it > doesn't bounce. I'm doing this so the Thermo players can get an idea of You're just in time. I only recently set it to allow non-member postings, and only then so that the dice server could send us stuff. > what they might be trading for (see the list below), and also to make sure > Craig gets this, as I'm not sure if he's subscribed to the B Nomic business > list. I'm not; only the discussion list for the purposes of setting up trading. Thank you. > implemented, as well as an additional change: Just as a Nomic can join > Nomic Market, it should be able to leave. Of course, any Nomic can just > ignore Nomic Market, but it'd be easier this way. In any case, I'm writing > contingencies into this in case the Nomic Market ruleset every goes nutty. Of course. We need to incorporate that bit. Of course, with nobody able to be at the Market right now, any change needs 2/3 of 0 or ZERO people's approval. > Set the LEG to the following: > {{ > Beverage > Sledge-O-Matic > Ball of Wax > Ball of Earwax > Towel > Big Stick > Pinball Gun > Small Lump of Scrap Metal > Large Lump of Scrap Metal > Gnome > Bread > Olive > Beer Can > Ice Cube > Ice Sphere > Boomcage > Can of Whoopass > Hand > Barney > Insta-Rule > }} > [[End LEG]] > > [[I'd love to see what other Nomics might do with a Hand or an Insta-Rule, > or see someone somehow possess and then trade off Barney.]] That will be interesting. Of course, part of the fun part about the Nomic Market will be dealing with the influx of bizarre comodities that we can't yet use. > Set the TIG to the following: > {{ > Object Events > Coin The Coin loses all properties it may have. It then becomes a > passable carrable object, and is placed in the receiving player's > possession. > }} > [[End TIG]] > [[I don't know what else might be out there, in Thermodynomic or elsewhere. > And we don't want to let things in here uncontrolled. And we'll let > everything else in on a case-by-case basis. Everything else is FNURD until > then.]] So far, I don't have any idea what other Nomics might join. Iff my Eco Nomic Stimulus Package proposal passes (I think it will, and if so on the 29th) then we only have Coins and Offices, which we wouldn't want to trade away as then the jobs wouldn't get done. Otherwise, instead of Coins we have Points and Kudoses. > B Nomic becomes Open for Business. Yippee! > This is very open to revision. Comments, questions, rotten fruit? I'll sell you some, when and if Thermo creates any. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 25 08:40:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 15:40:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 2499 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 15:20:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 15:20:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 15:20:48 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B5A6914E248; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:11 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:10 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> <200304242111.24690.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200304242111.24690.bdonlan@b...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304251118.10792.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 April 2003 09:11 pm, bd wrote: > On Thursday 24 April 2003 09:11 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Dice server wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > > > Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker > > > Rolls also sent to: > > > thermodynomic@y... > > > drduck@u... > > > > > > # The results will be assigned as such: > > > # Result Assigned Stenotype > > > # 1 bd > > > # 2 Craig > > > # 3 Dr Ducker > > > # 4 Josh > > > # 5 unlin_e > > > > > > No. of sides on every die: 5 > > > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > > > No. of dice rolls requested: 1 > > > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > > > > > 1 > > > > > > Information on the dice server: > > > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > > > Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > > > > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > > > subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > > > > > The dice server is provided by: > > > > > > Shadow Island Games > > > http://www.pbm.com/ > > > > > > Original message follows: > > > > Return-Path: > > > > Delivered-To: dice@p... > > > > Received: (qmail 15869 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:55 > > > > -0000 Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > > > > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:55 -0000 > > > > Received: (qmail 16016 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 > > > > -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > > > > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 00:54:36 -0000 > > > > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net > > > > [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id > > > > h3P0sUd31623; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:30 -0700 > > > > X-envelope-info: > > > > Sender: drduck@s... > > > > Message-ID: <3EA88754.D407858B@u...> > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:54:46 -0700 > > > > From: Doctor Ducker > > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > > > > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > > To: ThermoDyNomic , dice@p... > > > > Subject: Random Selection for Stenographer > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > #P thermodynomic@y... > > > > #P drduck@u... > > > > #S 5 > > > > #D 1 > > > > #R 1 > > > > #L 1 > > > > #T Selection of Stenotype > > > > #C The results will be assigned as such: > > > > #C Result Assigned Stenotype > > > > #C 1 bd > > > > #C 2 Craig > > > > #C 3 Dr Ducker > > > > #C 4 Josh > > > > #C 5 unlin_e > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > Version: 2.6.3ia > > > Charset: noconv > > > > > > iQCVAwUBPqiHaz8NitsTFjcVAQEIwAQAkzpNqn3sDaedr7SAVbO4gQKZtIYvmUAs > > > Yp//R17bprJR/nmOHoPyjsklkuwKT1br/Kpbt0ADf3PialPsUrM7cI/Klf8DczNI > > > ySlZM7LpmZ8Gb7EtSbp99ZT+H1VonTNYJQzlqqezDeIwrBGsk70sXIrXdJwxW8Pz > > > WUTc77davMc=3D > > > =3DHdYb > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > This doesn't appear to have been allowed into the list, so I'm forwardi= ng > > it. > > > > Also, I note that the random selection has chosen bd to hold the Office > > of the Stenotype. > > Blah. I'll go make a script or something tomorrow. Would anyone prefer the job? - --=20 bd You will be divorced within a year. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qVGyx533NjVSos4RAm/XAKCk5VbyiOJI2qTf2aOU5tXriOOPZwCfZUVN fnBikSHUolmHfYrZp5kUlrs=3D =3DViZW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 25 09:12:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 16:12:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 64255 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:12:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 16:12:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:12:40 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CA07A14E24A; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:10:03 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call For Judgement: On the possession of a registration proposal. Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:10:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EA8DFB4.F6C46C57@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EA8DFB4.F6C46C57@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304251210.01747.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 April 2003 03:11 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > We've now had this detail come up twice, and no-one has yet to do anythin= g > about it. > > The question is: Who, if anyone, possesses a registration proposal? > > I submit this CFJ to hopefully resolve this issue. > > > A registration proposal is identical to a proposal in all respects, excep= t, > that until such time as it passes, it is not a Thing, and therefore need > not be possessed by anyone or anything. > A registration proposal which passes becomes a normal proposal, and thus = a > Thing, in the possession of the submitter of the proposal. > A registration proposal which fails to pass also fails to become a Thing. > > > bd, as the holder of the Office of the Stenotype, please randomly assign = a > Judge for this CFJ. Anyone know where I can get the canonical list or players? It's not on the= =20 website anywhere. - --=20 bd Catharsis is something I associate with pornography and crossword puzzles. -- Howard Chaykin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qV3Zx533NjVSos4RAmPmAJ9pD4e4O8QAwk+f9ofn3J/SYe9KlgCgsZf4 m+40sWofi/TRN9wKGM8AHic=3D =3DSnKU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Fri Apr 25 09:21:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 16:21:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 7281 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:20:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 16:20:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:20:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 15136 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:20:48 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:20:48 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3PGKm718132 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:20:48 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA96081.D7BA65D8@u...> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:21:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: B Nomic - Joining the market References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig Daniel wrote: > > I'm sending this to the ThermodyNomic mailing list as well, and > hoping it > > doesn't bounce. I'm doing this so the Thermo players can get an > idea of > > You're just in time. I only recently set it to allow non-member > postings, and only then so that the dice server could send us stuff. > And I'm still not sure it works right. > > > implemented, as well as an additional change: Just as a Nomic can > join > > Nomic Market, it should be able to leave. Of course, any Nomic can > just > > ignore Nomic Market, but it'd be easier this way. In any case, I'm > writing > > contingencies into this in case the Nomic Market ruleset every goes > nutty. > > Of course. We need to incorporate that bit. Of course, with nobody > able to be at the Market right now, any change needs 2/3 of 0 or ZERO > people's approval. > > In my opinion we should probably use a ruleset which is very close to Suber's. That way we can get things like CFJs, etc. pre-built, but we should do away with any "winning" concepts, at least in the initial ruleset. I also think that the overall structure should be something like this: With regard to any given Nomic (called the Trader here) and it's interface to the Nomic Market (called the Market), there are four bodies of rules: 1) The overall ruleset for the Trader 2) The specific sub-set of the Trader's ruleset which relate to interfacing with the Market, known as the Trader Port Rules 3) The overall ruleset of the Market 4) The specific sub-set of the Market's ruleset which relate to interfacing with the Trader, known as the Market Port Rules So, if both B Nomic, and Thermo were to become part of the Market, then the Market would contain A general set of rules, and two sets of Market Port Rules, one for B, and one for Thermo. Setting things up so that some sort of basic quorum (sp?) is required for a general rule change would be a good idea; Something like at least one player from all participating Nomics must cast a vote on the proposed rule change, for it to be able to take effect. Rule changes to a given Trader's Market Port Rules should be difficult (if not impossible) for other Traders to affect, but relatively easy for the Trader in question to do so. The general rules should cover the actual "exchange rate" concepts, as well as the major procedural rules. The Port Rules should handle the translation of tradable goods from the concepts of the Trader Nomic, into the Market Nomic, as well as covering the procedures for altering the Port Rules. It also seems like it would be a good idea to do something whereby the more trading goes on from a given Trader, the more valuable that Trader's goods become. > > So far, I don't have any idea what other Nomics might join. Iff my > Eco Nomic Stimulus Package proposal passes (I think it will, and if > so on the 29th) then we only have Coins and Offices, which we > wouldn't want to trade away as then the jobs wouldn't get done. > Otherwise, instead of Coins we have Points and Kudoses. > Actually we also have Proposals, though I have no idea what good they'd be. ;) From drduck@u... Fri Apr 25 09:23:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 16:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 45023 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 16:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 9093 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:23:40 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:23:40 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3PGNdH20948 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:23:39 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EA96129.EC676B83@u...> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:24:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] References: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> <200304242111.24690.bdonlan@b...> <200304251118.10792.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > > > > > > Also, I note that the random selection has chosen bd to hold the Office > > > of the Stenotype. > > > > Blah. I'll go make a script or something tomorrow. > > Would anyone prefer the job? Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? From drduck@u... Fri Apr 25 09:27:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 16:27:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 87865 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:27:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 16:27:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:27:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 16265 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:27:39 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:27:39 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3PGRd725240 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:27:39 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA9621D.53B3880A@u...> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:28:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Call For Judgement: On the possession of a registration proposal. References: <3EA8DFB4.F6C46C57@u...> <200304251210.01747.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Friday 25 April 2003 03:11 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > We've now had this detail come up twice, and no-one has yet to do anything > > about it. > > > > The question is: Who, if anyone, possesses a registration proposal? > > > > I submit this CFJ to hopefully resolve this issue. > > > > > > A registration proposal is identical to a proposal in all respects, except, > > that until such time as it passes, it is not a Thing, and therefore need > > not be possessed by anyone or anything. > > A registration proposal which passes becomes a normal proposal, and thus a > > Thing, in the possession of the submitter of the proposal. > > A registration proposal which fails to pass also fails to become a Thing. > > > > > > bd, as the holder of the Office of the Stenotype, please randomly assign a > > Judge for this CFJ. > > Anyone know where I can get the canonical list or players? It's not on the > website anywhere. > - -- > bd bd Craig Dr Ducker Josh unlin_e All the names in yellow under the "Last Message datetimes" section at http://www.geocities.com/ducker756/thermo.html are currently active. The pink names are involved with the game in some playing-like fashion but are not actually currently registered according to the rules. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 25 09:28:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 16:28:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 24829 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:28:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 16:28:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 16:28:47 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0A91414E24E; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:26:09 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:26:09 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EA88B47.B0696700@u...> <200304251118.10792.bdonlan@b...> <3EA96129.EC676B83@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EA96129.EC676B83@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304251226.09357.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 April 2003 12:24 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > > > Also, I note that the random selection has chosen bd to hold the > > > > Office of the Stenotype. > > > > > > Blah. I'll go make a script or something tomorrow. > > > > Would anyone prefer the job? > > Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? The Stenotype. We need a more organized way of assigning offices. - --=20 bd I have seen the Great Pretender and he is not what he seems. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qWGhx533NjVSos4RAlrHAJ97dD1C402wTYaIj87+F2VwMVePgQCfajjT SR5v/9r/iLctmZZxYOKqi4M=3D =3DmrFq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 25 10:20:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 17:20:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 28077 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 17:06:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 17:06:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 17:06:47 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AE83514E24F; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: CFI assignment Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:04:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304251304.08863.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Here's the CFJ assignment. The dice server can't send to the group yet :( - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Return-Path: X-Original-To: bdonlan@b... Delivered-To: bdonlan@b... Received: from nixon.xkey.com (h42-rt.sv.meer.net [205.217.153.42]) by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B36314E24E for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:29:43 -0400 (EDT= ) Received: (qmail 18426 invoked by uid 951); 25 Apr 2003 16:32:18 -0000 Date: 25 Apr 2003 16:32:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20030425163218.18425.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: CFI assignment X-Loop: 1 To: bdonlan@b... (Bryan Donlan) Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3D-9.5 required=3D5.0 tests=3DPGP_SIGNATURE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,X_LOOP autolearn=3Dham version=3D2.53 X-Spam-Level:=20 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) Status: R=20 X-Status: N X-KMail-EncryptionState:=20=20 X-KMail-SignatureState:=20=20 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: bdonlan@b... (Bryan Donlan) Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # This is a random assignment for the judge of Dr. Ducker's CFJ # bd - 1 # Craig - 2 # Josh - 3 # unlin_e - 4 No. of sides on every die: 4 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 1 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 18358 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 16:32:00 -0000 > Received: from ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.or= g) > (postfix@2...) by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 > 16:32:00 -0000 > Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) > id D511514E24F; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:29:23 -0400 (EDT) > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:29:23 -0400 > To: dice@p... > Subject: dice > Message-ID: <20030425162923.GA664@b...> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i > From: bdonlan@b... (Bryan Donlan) > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #S 4 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #C This is a random assignment for the judge of Dr. Ducker's CFJ > #C bd - 1 > #C Craig - 2 > #C Josh - 3 > #C unlin_e - 4 > #T CFI assignment - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPqljEj8NitsTFjcVAQGZCQQAv5JK0Md1t9kKCjIdNTUE2OUe9IH6jBX0 40V+9FJrLSk4p6xq0Vvb+bCQbpbUnzaUQGNimjD/A8zg1B+eCCPsNnySzJurPE4V YDhVsDngAb+cc+JXyYCst9RyNzzPyLnhgNnJnZdXMiEajjOKM4vrYYYuxtMDC8uo yZEN26MokUw=3D =3DymaQ - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - ------------------------------------------------------- That said, I have to rule FALSE on this CFJ. - --=20 bd Regarding astral projection, Woody Allen once wrote, "This is not a bad way to travel, although there is usually a half-hour wait for luggage." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qWqIx533NjVSos4RAsVlAJ0XGVSlVzdlJsGmWnpSZ/pFzL8MrwCgrMyC 5QSXK/H+i85AstibZpOs1kc=3D =3D/oHc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kellyia@e... Fri Apr 25 11:25:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 18:25:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 37244 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 17:40:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 17:40:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 17:40:34 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3PHeWGG057156 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:40:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030425123850.027b1c20@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:39:18 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: B Nomic - Joining the market In-Reply-To: <3EA96081.D7BA65D8@u...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.67 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 11:21 AM 4/25/03, Dr. Ducker wrote: > > > > So far, I don't have any idea what other Nomics might join. Iff my > > Eco Nomic Stimulus Package proposal passes (I think it will, and if > > so on the 29th) then we only have Coins and Offices, which we > > wouldn't want to trade away as then the jobs wouldn't get done. > > Otherwise, instead of Coins we have Points and Kudoses. > > > >Actually we also have Proposals, though I have no idea what good they'd >be. ;) And Offices. That could be interesting. Ian From unlin_e@y... Fri Apr 25 11:57:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 18:57:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 80605 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 18:57:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 18:57:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11404.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.234) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 18:57:25 -0000 Message-ID: <20030425185725.66805.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 PDT Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eco nomic stimulus To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e unlin_e votes FOR the proposal 16 "eco nomic stimulus package". unlin_e votes FOR the proposal 17 "minor ensp fix". __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 25 13:46:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 25 Apr 2003 20:46:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 39067 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2003 20:46:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2003 20:46:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 20:46:26 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEA518AB0252; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:46:29 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:46:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304251226.09357.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > Would anyone prefer the job? >> Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? >The Stenotype. We need a more organized way of assigning offices. The goal of randomly assigning it was that people would have the week to decide if they were interested, and then whoever got it could give it to whoever wanted it. From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 25 17:42:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 00:42:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 32458 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 00:42:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 00:42:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 00:42:15 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5EBD311006E; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:42:19 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Fwd: CFI assignment Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:42:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304251304.08863.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Here's the CFJ assignment. The dice server can't send to the group yet :( Huh. Yahoo says that anyone can post now... From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 25 17:51:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 00:51:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 81763 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 00:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 00:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 00:51:11 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8049000240; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:51:16 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: B Nomic - Joining the market Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:51:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030425123850.027b1c20@m...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > So far, I don't have any idea what other Nomics might join. Iff my >> > Eco Nomic Stimulus Package proposal passes (I think it will, and if >> > so on the 29th) then we only have Coins and Offices, which we >> > wouldn't want to trade away as then the jobs wouldn't get done. >> > Otherwise, instead of Coins we have Points and Kudoses. >> > >> >>Actually we also have Proposals, though I have no idea what good they'd >>be. ;) >And Offices. That could be interesting. Hmm... Do we really want to trust non-players to do our administration first? Wouldn't it cause problems, resulting in general dislike of whoever traded it away? Actually, come to think of it, the office would be destroyed here - but the rules still say it would exist. So what happens? From ragnarok@p... Fri Apr 25 17:52:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 00:52:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 21854 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 00:52:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 00:52:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 00:52:35 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8579050240; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:52:39 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Fwd: CFI assignment Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:52:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304251304.08863.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >That said, I have to rule FALSE on this CFJ. Well, if that's not how they work, how about this, which I submit as a Call For Judgement: It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. From bdonlan@b... Fri Apr 25 18:00:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 01:00:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 86499 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 00:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 00:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 00:59:55 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 363B614E108; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: Dice server automated response Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:57:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304252057.07145.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Return-Path: X-Original-To: bdonlan@b... Delivered-To: bdonlan@b... Received: from nixon.xkey.com (h42-rt.sv.meer.net [205.217.153.42]) by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 082CB14E107 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:53:47 -0400 (EDT= ) Received: (qmail 10916 invoked by uid 951); 26 Apr 2003 00:56:27 -0000 Date: 26 Apr 2003 00:56:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20030426005627.10915.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Dice server automated response X-Loop: 1 To: bdonlan@b... (Bryan Donlan) Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3D-9.5 required=3D5.0 tests=3DPGP_SIGNATURE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,X_LOOP autolearn=3Dham version=3D2.53 X-Spam-Level:=20 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) Status: R=20 X-Status: N X-KMail-EncryptionState:=20=20 X-KMail-SignatureState:=20=20 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: bdonlan@b... (Bryan Donlan) Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # Craig's CFJ # Josh - 1 # Dr Ducker - 2 # bd - 3 # unlin_e - 4 No. of sides on every die: 4 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 3 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 10715 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 00:55:52 -0000 > Received: from ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.or= g) > (postfix@2...) by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 > 00:55:52 -0000 > Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) > id 149AE14E108; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:53:03 -0400 (EDT) > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:53:03 -0400 > To: dice@p... > Subject: foo > Message-ID: <20030426005303.GA9856@b...> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i > From: bdonlan@b... (Bryan Donlan) > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #S 4 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #C Craig's CFJ > #C Josh - 1 > #C Dr Ducker - 2 > #C bd - 3 > #C unlin_e - 4 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPqnZOz8NitsTFjcVAQEcmQP/QcZS8h4ljW2ugiT85zF/Lqo7wtwM/B6X MP0cSQNz62q8No6WsFaCV6NWjYWf+7kvWsv6wcnN7ufQ0c/iAvjp0NV5zRFsYWvb 1Fgs0/4cBdWuXa+suPwvoKONxRhrepWcmaA69ATnNTzqnbDLm+l7FxoK1wIE7aW9 MsS97ecSk8E=3D =3DGeEy - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - ------------------------------------------------------- *glares at dice server* Fine. I rule TRUE: 8.x specifies that non-players can submit registration proposals. This take= s=20 precedence over 9.7. - --=20 bd Sigh. I like to think it's just the Linux people who want to be on the "leading edge" so bad they walk right off the precipice. -- Craig E. Groeschel -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+qdljx533NjVSos4RAn3SAKCVGeYAidrI0ExTLGfkb2rL+4Q5twCfQ0Wz f2GsI0K7CHWM91rpt6ea8yA=3D =3DUDzt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Fri Apr 25 19:49:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 02:49:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 14485 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 02:49:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 02:49:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 02:49:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 30906 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 02:49:03 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 02:49:03 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3Q2n3n29795 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:49:03 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EA9F3CD.4AEA1237@u...> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:49:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> > Would anyone prefer the job? > > >> Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? > > >The Stenotype. We need a more organized way of assigning offices. > > The goal of randomly assigning it was that people would have the week to > decide if they were interested, and then whoever got it could give it to > whoever wanted it. > How do you figure? Where does it say that random assignments take a week? In my interpretation of the rules, the actions within a proposal, unless otherwise specified, take place as soon as the proposal passes, thus in this case, a random assignment. From ragnarok@p... Sat Apr 26 12:50:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 19:50:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 72124 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 19:50:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 19:50:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 19:50:14 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2F8E19B006E; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:50:16 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:50:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EA9F3CD.4AEA1237@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> > Would anyone prefer the job? >> >> >> Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? >> >> >The Stenotype. We need a more organized way of assigning offices. >> >> The goal of randomly assigning it was that people would have the week to >> decide if they were interested, and then whoever got it could give it to >> whoever wanted it. >> >How do you figure? Where does it say that random assignments take a week? They don't. Proposals take that long to pass. So, while it was Pending, everyone could consider if they wanted it. That was the theory, but in the multiple versions mess it got forgotten about. From ragnarok@p... Sat Apr 26 13:58:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 20:58:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 35019 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 20:58:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 20:58:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 20:58:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A30F19D1028C; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:58:55 -0400 To: , , Subject: Rules Amendment: Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:58:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl With the consent of 2/3 * 0 or 0 people, the rules of Nomic Market are hereby amended to incorporate fix suggestions. They now read as follows: Any player of any Nomic on the List may declare emself to be at the Market, subject to the rules of eir home Nomic, the Nomic in which e is a player. Such a declaration must be made on the Nomic Market mailing list and on the list of the home Nomic; archives of both must be publicly availible. While at the Market, all players may give their in-game posessions to one another; such things are destroyed in one game and created in another. So that players may give their things to themselves, a player who is in two Nomics may act as two people in the Nomic Market, with the different games as different home Nomics. Any player who is at the Market continuously for one week without trading any goods is considered to leave the Market. While at the Market, all players are bound by the rules of the Market and of their home Nomics; anything not prohibited by either of these is permitted. Since this is a Nomic-related activity, it is only natural that the rules be amendable; therefore this document may be amended if and only if a proposed change has the support of two thirds of all who are currently at the Market. One exception is that the list of participating Nomics may be amended whenever a Nomic that wishes to be added demonstrates that its rules and archives are publicly availible and formally asks the Administrator to add them, or whenever any Nomic on the list asks the Administrator to remove them. The list of participating Nomics is below. The Administrator shall be an individual responsible for tracking all changes to the Nomic Market rules; currently it is the entity known as Craig. (Currently Participating Nomics) Changes: The phrase "home Nomic" is defined. Players of two Nomics act as two players. Nomics may ask to leave. From quarksbar9@y... Sat Apr 26 17:37:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: quarksbar9@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 00:37:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 21234 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 00:37:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 00:37:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 00:37:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2003 00:37:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:37:25 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: The real reason Nomic Market was created Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7864 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "quarksbar9" X-Originating-IP: 206.170.79.250 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=145462589 X-Yahoo-Profile: quarksbar9 Citizens of Thermodynomic. Last week I requested to join B Nomic, but have not heard anything from them. Now they are in a "state of emergency" so I decided to read their April discussion archives at http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/threads.html to get better informed on the B Nomic culture. It would appear that B Nomic isn't being up front with you Thermo players in reference to this Nomic Market idea. There is an obvious ulterior motive you need to be alerted to. In the April archives(link above) you should check out the thread entitled "Step One on the road to Internomic II". I have highlights and links to those exact messages so that you can see I'm not making this stuff up. Baron von Skippy lays out the Internomic plan: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00134.html [[ I'm looking at a less structured, more real-lifeish version of InterNomic, where instead of a central Nomic controlling all, individuals link up and interact. It's broad so that they can do all kind of things, you see. Initially, there will be very few links, and most of them will come from B Nomic. This is a good thing. What I'm really going for is two unprecedented things. One, this game uniting behind a cause. Two, the cause: B Nomic becoming a power in the land, and, if they don't have a land for us to be a power in, us making one. What I envision is most players joining a second game and promoting the cause of B Nomic there. You don't have to be a full- time player. Just join, vote some, and occasionally propose something that will make their ruleset better compatible with ours. ]] Delusions of grandeur maybe? Read on and judge for yourself: [[ Everyone stands to win here, especially the people who can make the most stuff to sell. Might I point out that we have a lot to sell? Ambassadors will have advantages too. Especially once it's realized that it's easiest to have B Nomic Ambassadors to other Nomics become other Nomics' Ambassadors to B Nomic. Ambassadors will get power and paychecks both ways. ]] If you continue reading through the thread you'll see that some players of B Nomic actually discuss the Nomics they can do harm to. Like here. http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00147.html. And yes, they list Thermodynomic. A player identified as bd responds to a player known as Wonko: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00163.html [[ > You seem to think that we can force other Nomics to do what we want; > you seem even to think that we can invade them at any time if we > choose. But we can't. They don't need us nor our rules; if we bother > them, they can choose to ignore us. And there's nothing we can do about > it. For us to declare war on a nomic would be like a Magic player > casting a Lightning Bolt at a player in a nearby game of chess - the > chess player doesn't care about the bolt, she just ignores it, and the > Bolter can't do a thing about it. Likewise, if we declare that our > invading armies trample another Nomic's rules and beat them into the > ground, they can simply ignore us, as we are not a part of their > gamestate unless they allow us to be. We can all join $smallerthanus-nomic and implement whatever proposal we like ]] Then Glotmorf chimes in: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon- discuss/spoon-discuss-200304/msg00156.html [[ We could do that now. I know at least one Nomic out there whose member count is lower than ours. We could pull a LaRouche, all join at once, and vote in whatever we please... ]] Baron von Skippy also responds to Wonko: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00153.html [[ > >And if they don't subscribe to our Ambassador rule, how do we 'go to war' >with them? -Um... we replace their entire ruleset with "proosal proosal proosal?" Or we masquerade as them on discussion boards that attract hackers and declare their web page to be totally hack-proof? You know, the usual way.- ]] Since Thermodynomic is run through Yahoo groups, you will likely not have to worry about hack attacks. But this type of talk about Nomic war is really disturbing. Why would anyone want to ruin the fun of other players who share their interest in playing Nomic? Here's a response to the previous email from Wonko: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00166.html [[ We can only nuke eir rules if we outnumber them. And that strikes me as a bit of a cop out - there's absolutely nothing they can do short of closing themselves to stop us. So all that happens is that we take out one Nomic, it restarts using its last seen ruleset but without allowing new players, and every other Nomic gets irritated and cuts off all relationships with us. We essentially become a group of traveling brigands whom everyone else hates. I, for one, will not join in such action. ]] Wonko is the only B Nomic player taking these Nomic war hawks of B Nomic to task. Don't you think that's sad? Now we see Baron von Skippy discuss the precedence of internomic war: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00155.html [[ -The Nomic Wiki has the records of two inter-nomic wars already. Neither needed Ambassadors. Agora simply trampled two Nomics which pissed it off. I mean, really. A war like you describe is like two children shooting imaginary guns at each other. "Bang!" "You missed!" I'm talking about an all-out grapple to the death.- ]] Grapple to the death? Again, why would anyone want to ruin the fun of other Nomic players. This is shameless. If you continue reading the other messages in this thread you will see reports of active attempts to join other Nomics. Here's Baron von Skippy responding to bd(bdolan88): http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00175.html [[ >How about adding Emissaries to the Ambassador rule? They'd be required to >be >in at least one other nomic, and would be paid to 'introduce' new rules >there >for preparation for our *checks thesaurus* >dominat^H^H^H^Htakeove^H^H^H^H^Hcoup^H^H^H^Hinteractions with them... -Well, that's what Ambassadors /are./ They start as Ambassadors on one end and strange newbies who keep blathering on about another Nomic on the other, until both ends take them as Ambassadors.- ]] The plan is clear. There are a good number of B Nomic players who want other Nomics to conform to the B Nomic ruleset or else they will destroy them. More from Baron van Skippy: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss- 200304/msg00176.html [[ -So we keep joining and joining. They can't block (a) player names, (b) e-mail addresses, or (c) B Nomic players (if they block B Nomic players, we either add the ' to our name anyway or we just lie about it), and eventually their people will quit out of frustration. Or maybe they'll lock out all new players, in which case they stagnate. People get bored fast, you know. If we can keep something up longer than them, they might give in. What we need first is a solid ally. Another Nomic we can work with and rely upon to join with us in a mutually beneficial relationship, and who can donate people to the cause of breaking other Nomics. ]] Breaking other Nomics? What a bunch of jerks. Since Thermodynomic appears so gung-ho about this Nomic Market thing, maybe they'll select you as this "solid ally". Does Thermodynomic wish to be a party to "breaking other Nomics" with B Nomic? This whole mess is pretty damn unethical if you ask me and I'll be alerting every Nomic they listed in this thread. Plus I will never join B Nomic as long as these bunch of jerks rule the roost. sam nichols From orcinaspacesuit@h... Sat Apr 26 20:05:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: orcinaspacesuit@h... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 03:05:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 93098 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 03:05:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 03:05:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.58) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 03:05:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:05:01 -0700 Received: from 130.184.174.194 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 03:05:01 GMT X-Originating-Email: [orcinaspacesuit@h...] To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: "Breaking Nomics" Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:05:01 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Apr 2003 03:05:01.0472 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB147200:01C30C69] From: "Orc In A Spacesuit" X-Originating-IP: [130.184.174.194] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public Bd just informed us of the "breaking and subjugating nomics" message on Thermo. I'd like to clarify one point: All the stuff about doing bad things to other nomics has been by Glotmorf and BvS. The rest of the players have made such no overtures, and myself and Wonko have vehemetly disagreed with doing such a thing. Bd himself, while he hasn't said anything either way, has simply pointed out the utter foolishness of trying to do such things as Glotmorf and BvS suggested. The rest of the players aren't active enough to regularly comment. As for Glotmorf, wouldn't be the first time he's tried to subjugate a Nomic to his will. We has to live under his thumb for a month or so. In short, don't judge us by the wild ideas of 2 of our players. They do not speak for the rest of us nor have our support in such endeavors. Orc in a Spacesuit _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From cortex@n... Sat Apr 26 21:10:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 04:10:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 16231 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 04:10:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 04:10:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 04:10:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 10455 invoked by uid 1006); 27 Apr 2003 04:10:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:10:18 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The real reason Nomic Market was created Message-ID: <20030427001018.A10402@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from quarksbar9@y... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:37:25AM -0000 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:37:25AM -0000, quarksbar9 keyboarded: > > This whole mess is pretty damn unethical if you ask me and I'll be > alerting every Nomic they listed in this thread. Plus I will never > join B Nomic as long as these bunch of jerks rule the roost. And at the same time, it's a fascinating notion. While willfully damaging someone else's Nomic would be pretty shitty, it'd also be terrific sort of extension of the idea of what a game of Nomic is. In a sense, what we're talking about *is* InterNomic in it's most natural form. Or something. Gotta finish watching Yojimbo now. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Sat Apr 26 21:33:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 04:33:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 93673 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 04:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 04:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 04:33:36 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADA61779029A; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:33:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The real reason Nomic Market was created Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:33:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030427001018.A10402@a...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> This whole mess is pretty damn unethical if you ask me and I'll be >> alerting every Nomic they listed in this thread. Plus I will never >> join B Nomic as long as these bunch of jerks rule the roost. >And at the same time, it's a fascinating notion. While willfully >damaging someone else's Nomic would be pretty shitty, it'd also be >terrific sort of extension of the idea of what a game of Nomic is. In a >sense, what we're talking about *is* InterNomic in it's most natural >form. Nomic war is not unprecedented. It tends to be a rather silly form of interaction between two stable Nomics, where both have a lot of fun and then both declare victory. I seem to recall stories of an Agoran conquest of Acka at one point, but it was temporary. Frankly, I think we can trust that although most of B Nomic would have a lot of fun invading another Nomic, they are sensible enough to know that it would be most fun if the other Nomic *survived*. In a Nomic Market (which I, a non-player of B Nomic, have been involved in setting up), any Nomic can quit whenever the Market starts to harm it. Therefore, no Market-based interaction can last that is other than mutually beneficial. So yes, it will help B Nomic make money. But the economics doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 07:45:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 14:45:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 45007 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 14:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 14:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 14:45:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD18AB4027A; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0400 To: Cc: , Subject: New List Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:45:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl The Nomic Market is now hosted at nomicmarket@n.... The list web site is http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/nomicmarket; you can subscribe from there. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 08:47:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 15:47:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 82808 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 15:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 15:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 15:47:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 28986 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 15:47:26 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 15:47:26 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RFlQY26444 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:47:26 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EABFBE2.752D0E96@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:48:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> >> > Would anyone prefer the job? > >> > >> >> Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? > >> > >> >The Stenotype. We need a more organized way of assigning offices. > >> > >> The goal of randomly assigning it was that people would have the week to > >> decide if they were interested, and then whoever got it could give it to > >> whoever wanted it. > >> > > >How do you figure? Where does it say that random assignments take a week? > > They don't. Proposals take that long to pass. So, while it was Pending, > everyone could consider if they wanted it. That was the theory, but in the > multiple versions mess it got forgotten about. > Ah, well in light of this clarification, and because I obviously have no adversion to the duties entailed, I would be perfectly willing to accept The Office of Stenotype from bd, if he still desires to rid himself of such duties. As is still true of my duties as Speaker, if anyone has any objection to this I will offer it to those who the group preferrs maintain it. From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 09:23:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 16:23:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 35243 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 16:23:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 16:23:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 16:23:11 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4606614E267; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:23:10 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Selection of Stenotype] Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:23:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EABFBE2.752D0E96@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EABFBE2.752D0E96@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271223.09342.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 11:48 am, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > >> >> > Would anyone prefer the job? > > >> >> > > >> >> Are you referring to the script or the Stenotype? > > >> > > > >> >The Stenotype. We need a more organized way of assigning offices. > > >> > > >> The goal of randomly assigning it was that people would have the wee= k > > >> to decide if they were interested, and then whoever got it could giv= e > > >> it to whoever wanted it. > > > > > >How do you figure? Where does it say that random assignments take a > > > week? > > > > They don't. Proposals take that long to pass. So, while it was Pending, > > everyone could consider if they wanted it. That was the theory, but in > > the multiple versions mess it got forgotten about. > > Ah, well in light of this clarification, and because I obviously have no > adversion to the duties entailed, I would be perfectly willing to accept > The Office of Stenotype from bd, if he still desires to rid himself of su= ch > duties. As is still true of my duties as Speaker, if anyone has any > objection to this I will offer it to those who the group preferrs maintai= n > it. Okay - I give the office of the Stenotype to Doctor Ducker. - --=20 bd O que voc=EA precisa quando tem cinco advogados enterrados at=E9 o pesco=E7= o no concreto? R: Mais concreto. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rAPtx533NjVSos4RAp7xAJ9yuY7s1SbuIQsaEYfReuqR3sQRpQCg2fQR AecyUPuFOgsOlDIA07rvyh8=3D =3DjiNB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 09:24:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 16:24:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 58382 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 16:24:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 16:24:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 16:24:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A44EF0AB006E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:24:46 -0400 To: Subject: Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:24:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Since we have nothing else going on right now, and we can now give away our Things, I submit the following protoporopsal: The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in rule 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purposes of this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. Rule 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will be created. A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will be created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." This proposal is destroyed. And, to get people started thinking about hot potatoes to create, my first suggestion will be the Potato of Cash Flow, whose description reads "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, each Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a random player." Note that Yahoo is currently set to post the ruleset every other week. From cortex@n... Sun Apr 27 10:03:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:03:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 95415 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:03:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:03:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:03:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 12449 invoked by uid 1006); 27 Apr 2003 17:02:54 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:02:54 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030427130253.A12431@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:24:50PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:24:50PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in rule 9.1 > and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purposes of this > proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. Rule 9.1 > will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will be created. > > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will be > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its own > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs > and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as follows: "The > intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way > harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one > another as the appointed time draws near." > > This proposal is destroyed. > I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 10:07:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:07:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 3237 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:07:41 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 152C814E269; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:07:39 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:07:38 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030427130253.A12431@a...> In-Reply-To: <20030427130253.A12431@a...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271307.39091.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 01:02 pm, cortex wrote: > On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:24:50PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in rul= e > > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purposes = of > > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. Ru= le > > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will be > > created. > > > > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will be > > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its own > > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect > > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as > > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be create= d > > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will franticall= y > > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." > > > > This proposal is destroyed. > > > > I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a=20 proposal. - --=20 bd No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted. -- Aesop -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rA5bx533NjVSos4RAoeYAJ4ugA6yiVCiqSHGLFFQJHMXNV+TTgCfWrQx A88jrptxUQQnbJAe9EefXiw=3D =3D/KU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Sun Apr 27 10:16:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:16:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18553 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:16:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:16:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:16:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 12493 invoked by uid 1006); 27 Apr 2003 17:16:46 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:16:45 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030427131645.B12431@a...> References: <20030427130253.A12431@a...> <200304271307.39091.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200304271307.39091.bdonlan@b...>; from bdonlan@b... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:07:38PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:07:38PM -0400, bd keyboarded: > > I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. > > It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a > proposal. That's how enthusiastic I am -- I've lost my ability to read critically. So. Yes. I would be for such a proposal. If such a proposal existed. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 10:25:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:25:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 26450 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:25:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:25:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:25:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A27FF113006E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:25:19 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The real reason Nomic Market was created Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:25:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I should mention that we are being decieved by almost any reading of the spoon-discuss archives. First of all, the only list I can find that could be construed as a list of Nomics they could subjugate is... a list of active Nomics. The name of ThermodyNomic was mentioned, but as best as I can tell it was suggested as a possible *ally* - the likely first target for any Nomic agression from the militants in B Nomic is Nomicron. However, there might be one thing fishy going on - OIAS's post presenting the mainstream B Nomic view was fairly accurate, except that it downplayed the role of bd in the discussions. E was about as pro-invasion as Baron von Skippy, and more vocally so than Glotmorf, who OIAS blamed the whole thing on. Bd is the only B Nomic player to have successfully infiltrated Thermo. Hmmm. However, bd did prefer the peaceful interaction model, with war as what to do if other Nomics get evil. A look at the B Nomic archives got me really confused. I'm generally inclined to trust the Orc's explanation, but I'm only about 98% sure e's being up front with us. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 10:26:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:26:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 45939 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:26:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:26:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:26:43 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2D519DC02A0; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:26:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:26:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304271307.39091.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in rule >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purposes of >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. Rule >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will be >> > created. >> > >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will be >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its own >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." >> > >> > This proposal is destroyed. >> > >> >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a >proposal. Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. Any potato ideas, other than my Potato of Cash Flow? From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 10:29:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:29:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 31670 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:29:14 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7BFB214E26D; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:29:13 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:29:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271329.12293.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 01:26 pm, Craig wrote: > >> > > >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in > > rule > > >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purpos= es > > of > > >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. > > Rule > > >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will = be > >> > created. > >> > > >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will = be > >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its o= wn > >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect > >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as > >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be > > created > > >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will > > frantically > > >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." > >> > > >> > This proposal is destroyed. > >> > > >> > >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. > > > >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a > >proposal. > > Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. FOR. > Any potato ideas, other than my Potato of Cash Flow? Not at the moment. - --=20 bd Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what value there may be in owning a piece thereof. -- National Lampoon, "Deteriorata" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rBNox533NjVSos4RAhgrAKCdcG8MmS+yJyQ9tNY3idEarCjAPACffwnF TSZjLtQRSLG5kSjNhKjwSfQ=3D =3D6R1T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 10:31:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:31:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 58144 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:31:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:31:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:31:02 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3D8FC90286; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:31:04 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:31:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304271329.12293.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> > >> >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in >> >> rule >> >> >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purposes >> >> of >> >> >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. >> >> Rule >> >> >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will be >> >> > created. >> >> > >> >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will be >> >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its own >> >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect >> >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as >> >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be >> >> created >> >> >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will >> >> frantically >> >> >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." >> >> > >> >> > This proposal is destroyed. >> >> > >> >> >> >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. >> > >> >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a >> >proposal. >> >> Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot >> potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. >FOR. Me too. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 10:55:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 17:55:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 67996 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:55:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 17:55:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:55:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 12224 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 17:55:41 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 17:55:41 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RHtf207606 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:55:41 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAC19F3.9202A12C@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:57:07 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> > > >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in > rule > >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the purposes > of > >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. > Rule > >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will be > >> > created. > >> > > >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will be > >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its own > >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect > >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as > >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be > created > >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will > frantically > >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." > >> > > >> > This proposal is destroyed. > >> > > >> > >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. > > >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a > >proposal. > > Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 11:03:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:03:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 34985 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:03:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AB67128E02A2; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:03:19 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:03:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAC19F3.9202A12C@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail unless someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote against it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a proposal can be known unless any registration proposals occur, and no registration proposals are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, each Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a random player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposal, promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 11:12:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:12:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 57065 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:12:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:12:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:12:56 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6503B14E378; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:12:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271412.46157.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 02:03 pm, Craig wrote: > >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". > > Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail unles= s > someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote against > it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a proposal can be > known unless any registration proposals occur, and no registration > proposals are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. > > Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another > Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, > each Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a > random player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposa= l, > promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato of > Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. > AGAINST. 'Promises' is too vague - we need a rule specifying it. - --=20 bd These days, the only time politicians tell the truth is when they call each other a liar. -- Alfred E. Newman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rB2cx533NjVSos4RAmmxAKCv1XMaPohd8t1mm3ESdSuQhTg3MwCdE9eL pYrqLsBW6WLlm9SNlFmCD04=3D =3DzRts -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 11:13:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:13:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 84598 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:13:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:13:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:13:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADC11A1902A0; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:13:21 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:13:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I submitted the following three days ago. Nobody has voted yet, including me. Well, I'm FOR it. > >A rule 0.5 will be created, reading "There are no restrictions on players >entering the Nomic Market." >ThermodyNomic will officially ask to be recognized as a participant by the >Nomic Market. >This proposal shall be destroyed. > From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 11:19:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:19:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 74138 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:19:48 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF46F1B6006E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:19:50 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:19:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304271412.46157.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". >> >> Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail unless >> someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote against >> it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a proposal can be >> known unless any registration proposals occur, and no registration >> proposals are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. >> >> Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another >> Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: >> >> >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its >> description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, >> each Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a >> random player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposal, >> promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato of >> Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. >> >AGAINST. 'Promises' is too vague - we need a rule specifying it. What? You don't *trust* me? Anyway, you're right. We need a regular way of timing events. Then, the Potato of Cash Flow could just describe itself as having an effect every two weeks. Maybe the following? A rule 0.6 shall be created in the group ThermodyNomic, with the text: If an event is supposed to happen periodically (such as if it is specified as happening every week), then every time its period passes without it occurring (once a week in the every week example), it shall occur. This could also be used to fix a bug in the TSLs, where by my reading the following (which I hereby submit as a CFJ) must be true: If two weeks go by without a proposal passing, the Second Sacred Law destroys everyThing. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 11:31:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:31:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 3671 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:31:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 17313 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:31:54 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:31:54 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RIVs223017 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:31:54 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAC2271.4551679F@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:33:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". > > Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail unless > someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote against > it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a proposal can be > known unless any registration proposals occur, and no registration proposals > are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. > > Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another > Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, each > Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a random > player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposal, > promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato of Cash > Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. > > Sounds good and other than the "promise" issue I'd be all for this, except one little thing: it violates the TSLs by creating a hot potato, but without destroying anything... From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 11:34:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 13337 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 15117 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:34:32 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:34:32 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RIYW224598 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:34:32 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAC230F.78A2092F@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:35:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > I submitted the following three days ago. Nobody has voted yet, including > me. Well, I'm FOR it. > > > > >A rule 0.5 will be created, reading "There are no restrictions on players > >entering the Nomic Market." > >ThermodyNomic will officially ask to be recognized as a participant by the > >Nomic Market. > >This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > Given recent events, I'm still considering this proposal, but I'm leaning against it at the moment. I very much like the idea of a nomic market, but I think it's ruleset is far too vague at the moment, and I am therefore concerned we may be getting in too deep... From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 11:38:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:38:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 20857 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:38:55 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3C0F1E5006E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:38:56 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:38:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAC2271.4551679F@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". >> >> Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail unless >> someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote against >> it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a proposal can be >> known unless any registration proposals occur, and no registration proposals >> are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. >> >> Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another >> Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: >> >> >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its >> description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, each >> Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a random >> player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposal, >> promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato of Cash >> Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. >> >Sounds good and other than the "promise" issue I'd be all for this, except one little thing: it >violates the TSLs by creating a hot potato, but without destroying anything... Yeah. I forgot to have it destroy itself. So, as I do whenever I screw up like that, I submit the following: A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. This proposal shall be destroyed. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 11:39:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:39:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 97073 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:39:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:39:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:39:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3EEF1E8006E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:39:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:39:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAC230F.78A2092F@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Given recent events, I'm still considering this proposal, but I'm leaning against it at the >moment. I very much like the idea of a nomic market, but I think it's ruleset is far too vague >at the moment, and I am therefore concerned we may be getting in too deep... Currently, a mere 0 people can amend the rules. So, if you dislike them, suggest a fix and it will be so. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 11:42:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:42:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 37090 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:42:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:42:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:42:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 16215 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:42:16 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:42:16 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RIgG229971 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:42:16 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAC24DF.1D30DB83@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:43:43 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Given recent events, I'm still considering this proposal, but I'm leaning > against it at the > >moment. I very much like the idea of a nomic market, but I think it's > ruleset is far too vague > >at the moment, and I am therefore concerned we may be getting in too > deep... > > Currently, a mere 0 people can amend the rules. So, if you dislike them, > suggest a fix and it will be so. > Yup, I'm aware, and working on it. But I don't know how long it'll take me as I would like it to be fairly comprehensive, and I've little experience trying to create a ruleset to spec. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 11:57:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 18:57:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 94730 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:57:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 18:57:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:57:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 18337 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 18:57:13 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 18:57:13 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RIvD207147 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:57:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAC2861.7F7624E7@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:58:41 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > Better, but there is a point of vagueness that I think should be clarified within the description portion is that the word "its" is ambiguous. Does it refer to the possessor of the Potato, or to each Coin? I think it's clear you meant the Potato, but it could get read the other way as well, which means it doesn't matter who has the Potato when it goes off... From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 12:20:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 19:20:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 67111 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 19:20:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 19:20:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 19:20:00 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BAC4114E384; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:19:59 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:19:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271519.58525.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 02:19 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". > >> > >> Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail > > unless > > >> someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote > >> against it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a > >> proposal can be known unless any registration proposals occur, and no > >> registration proposals are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. > >> > >> Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another > >> Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: > >> > >> > >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > >> description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset= , > >> each Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given t= o > >> a random player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the > > proposal, > > >> promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato o= f > >> Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. > >> > > > >AGAINST. 'Promises' is too vague - we need a rule specifying it. > > What? You don't *trust* me? No, it's just that it's not specified in the ruleset. If there's one thing= =20 I've learned in B Nomic, it's that you have to be precise about *everything= *. > Anyway, you're right. We need a regular way of timing events. Then, the > Potato of Cash Flow could just describe itself as having an effect every > two weeks. Maybe the following? > > A rule 0.6 shall be created in the group ThermodyNomic, with the text: > If an event is supposed to happen periodically (such as if it is specifie= d > as happening every week), then every time its period passes without it > occurring (once a week in the every week example), it shall occur. > Okay, but seems redundant to me. It's just that a rule needs to specify tha= t=20 the potato of cash flow activates at intervals of two weeks, or somesuch.=20 There isn't really a need for a meta-rule specifying periodic events, unles= s=20 we're going to require all english words to be defined :P > This could also be used to fix a bug in the TSLs, where by my reading the > following (which I hereby submit as a CFJ) must be true: > If two weeks go by without a proposal passing, the Second Sacred Law > destroys everyThing. - --=20 bd You teach best what you most need to learn. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rC1ex533NjVSos4RArV4AJ4mKQAyXnHefeE8QexthZ3RXJBL4gCg15LB y5KBh9IczY1DCFJSc8g75Ew=3D =3DTSyS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 12:22:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 19:22:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 72888 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 19:22:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 19:22:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 19:22:25 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 84EB814E385; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:22:23 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:22:23 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271522.23198.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 02:39 pm, Craig wrote: > >Given recent events, I'm still considering this proposal, but I'm leanin= g > > against it at the > > >moment. I very much like the idea of a nomic market, but I think it's > > ruleset is far too vague > > >at the moment, and I am therefore concerned we may be getting in too > > deep... > > Currently, a mere 0 people can amend the rules. So, if you dislike them, > suggest a fix and it will be so. Sounds like a recipe for disaster - exactly 0 people right now suggest that= =20 its rules be changed to, say: {{ Monkey. }} Or something equally random and nonsensical. Then again, we can always=20 temporaraly ignore that fact, and burn this email :P - --=20 bd is a surgical war where you go give the foreign troops nose jobs? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rC3vx533NjVSos4RAlVYAJ9WTNPPKixtuyT5UZnWjZATjCylUwCcC+GN 7E20HLr0T0yAygLJ+e73Ve0=3D =3DeV22 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 12:43:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 19:43:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 45763 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 19:43:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 19:43:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 19:43:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2F4140E0254; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:43:48 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:43:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAC24DF.1D30DB83@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >to be fairly comprehensive, and I've little experience trying to create a ruleset to spec. Well, one bit of historical reference: At the time Pure N_omic died, its ruleset was still fairly simple. It is still availible in its final form at http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oBqsPtR_Qa1-bs7d8m0UUpBhfE8ySZOeQy_6-0TZ_EZv0dH o0hCUTpaxCrAf6OBv3j7GNojS3I_rnRAC/%2APure%2A%20n_omic/Current%20Ruleset%20fo r%20%2APure%2A%20N_omic. Anyway, I posted a suggestion (the Pure N_omic equivalent of a proposal) as an April Fools joke. The suggestion pretended to be from one of the other players (I messed with the headers), and it would have created the following rule: Any player may, at a cost of two points, make a rule Immune. This lasts for one week. Every Monday, if there are any non-Immune rules, a rule is chosen at random. If that rule is not Immune, it is removed from the ruleset. This rule is Immune. When one of the players suggested that it would actually be interesting, a few modifications made it the Second Sacred Law of ThermodyNomic. The initial ruleset we began with took about two months of writing and editing, with input from several people. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 13:33:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 20:33:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 34793 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 20:33:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 20:33:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 20:33:14 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE8CC5C0238; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:33:16 -0400 To: Subject: Massive Judidicial Reform Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:33:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I've decided I don't think judgement should have to be a yes/no thing: Rule 11.1 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 11.1 with the text: A Call For Judgment must be a question which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. Rule 11.4 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 11.4 with the text: The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message containing an answer to the question; the answer shall be known as the Judgement. Rule 11.5 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 11.5 with the text: The answer a Judge provides to a Call For Judgement shall be binding, unless it is appealed. Rule 12.2 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 12.2 with the text: All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Judgement to be true or false. Rule 13.0 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 13.0 with the text: Whenever a Judgement is not appealed within a week, or is upheld on appeal, the sentences of the Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and the Stenographer may edit the comment for that group. Ideally, there would be a better appeal system that allows the three Appelate Justices to co-write an Appelate Judgement. When and iff someone suggests a way to do that, I will submit this as a proposal. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 13:35:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 20:35:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 44122 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 20:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 20:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 20:35:48 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF27F3E027E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:35:51 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:35:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAC2861.7F7624E7@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its >> description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full >> weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash >> Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random >> player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random >> player. This proposal shall be destroyed. >> >Better, but there is a point of vagueness that I think should be clarified within the >description portion is that the word "its" is ambiguous. Does it refer to the possessor of the >Potato, or to each Coin? I think it's clear you meant the Potato, but it could get read the >other way as well, which means it doesn't matter who has the Potato when it goes off... And, if someone tries to read it that way, there will be a CFJ. And everyone knows what was intended, so we all know how it'll go. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 14:17:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 21:17:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 17634 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 21:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 21:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 21:17:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 7140 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 21:17:14 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 21:17:14 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RLHDL19204 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:17:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAC4933.56341ED@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:18:43 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Massive Judidicial Reform References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > I've decided I don't think judgement should have to be a yes/no thing: > > > Rule 11.1 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 11.1 with the text: > A Call For Judgment must be a question which does not concern any other Call > For Judgement. > > Rule 11.4 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 11.4 with the text: > The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message containing an answer > to the question; the answer shall be known as the Judgement. > > Rule 11.5 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 11.5 with the text: > The answer a Judge provides to a Call For Judgement shall be binding, unless > it is appealed. > > Rule 12.2 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 12.2 with the text: > All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Judgement to > be true or false. > > Rule 13.0 shall be repealed and replaced with a new rule 13.0 with the text: > Whenever a Judgement is not appealed within a week, or is upheld on appeal, > the sentences of the Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in > the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and the Stenographer may edit the comment > for that group. > > > Ideally, there would be a better appeal system that allows the three > Appelate Justices to co-write an Appelate Judgement. When and iff someone > suggests a way to do that, I will submit this as a proposal. > I don't much like the idea of changing CFJs to questions. And this version of 13.0 allows for the judicial abuses that were discussed a while back. I think that something more like this is what we should want: 13.0 Whenever a judgement on a CFJ is not appealed within one week, or a majority decision is reached amongst the Appellate Justices for a CFJ, then the phrase "It is that, " is to be prefixed to each sentence within the CFJ, replacing with the term TRUE or FALSE in accordance with the judgement returned by the Judge or Appellate Justices, and then each such prefixed sentence is to be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 14:23:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 21:23:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 37994 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 21:23:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 21:23:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 21:23:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA5F101F0290; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:23:43 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Massive Judidicial Reform Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:23:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAC4933.56341ED@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I don't much like the idea of changing CFJs to questions. And this version of 13.0 allows for >the judicial abuses that were discussed a while back. Sadly, the judicial abuses (I assume you're referring to "this thing is a rule") worked only in one case and only because of a perception that a CFJ that had the potential to become a rule *was* a rule. Of course, your version lends itself to even more abuses. Eg, CFJing on "the game is in a state of doing the happy dance". That won't be judged true until ENSP passes, and probably not even then. But then we'd get a rule that "It is FALSE that the game is in a state of doing the happy dance." IE, every CFJ would create at least one Thing. Maybe we should just have a rule that the Stenographer is allowed to bitch-slap people. From drduck@u... Sun Apr 27 14:42:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 21:42:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 25457 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 21:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 21:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 21:42:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 10264 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 21:42:48 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 21:42:48 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3RLgm200908 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:42:48 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EAC4F33.C41CE4DA@u...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:44:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Massive Judidicial Reform References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >I don't much like the idea of changing CFJs to questions. And this version > of 13.0 allows for > >the judicial abuses that were discussed a while back. > > Sadly, the judicial abuses (I assume you're referring to "this thing is a rule") Nope, the fact that since the Judgement, not the CFJ, is what is to be added to the Ruleset, then the Judge, could put anything ey wanted into it. > worked only in one case and only because of a perception that a CFJ > that had the potential to become a rule *was* a rule. Of course, your > version lends itself to even more abuses. Eg, CFJing on "the game is in a > state of doing the happy dance". That won't be judged true until ENSP > passes, and probably not even then. But then we'd get a rule that "It is > FALSE that the game is in a state of doing the happy dance." IE, every CFJ > would create at least one Thing. > Yeah, I see your point there. The easy way is simply to limit it back to TRUE judgements, though I've been thinking of a solution to the "rule 2.2 destruction of an existing Things description" situation, which might work for these types of situations: Dark Matter Rules: Essentially a kind of rule which is not a Thing. For instance if 2.2 destroyed 10.2 (where the speaker is defined) then 10.2 would be destroyed as a normal rule, and would then become a DM rule, thus still defining the speake office. If at some later point the office of the speaker itself was destroyed then 10.2 would also be removed automatically. FALSE Judgement rules could be DM rules where the Thing that was keeping them around was the rule defining DM rules, or something like rule 13.0. > > Maybe we should just have a rule that the Stenographer is allowed to > bitch-slap people. > Heh, can't say I'd mind too much... From cortex@n... Sun Apr 27 15:01:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:01:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 13580 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:01:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:01:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:01:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 13266 invoked by uid 1006); 27 Apr 2003 22:01:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:01:53 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030427180153.A13221@a...> References: <200304271307.39091.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:26:48PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:26:48PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. > Any potato ideas, other than my Potato of Cash Flow? I am wildy, overwhelmingly, mind-crushingly FOR said this-time-it-really-is-a proposal. As for potato ideas, I think we could see interesting things happen with a Potato of Hasty Agreement: at such time as all but one players have voted on a proposal, the remaining player is considered to have voted FOR that proposal if ey hold this Potato. This suggests a place for similar potatoes of Majority, Minority, Negation and Abstention. Though then there'd be a question of precedence, if someone held more than one of these potatoes. So they'd have to be a constructed set with that in mind. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From cortex@n... Sun Apr 27 15:10:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:10:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 40674 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:10:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:10:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:10:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 13310 invoked by uid 1006); 27 Apr 2003 22:10:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:10:30 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030427181030.B13221@a...> References: <3EAC2271.4551679F@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 02:38:59PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 02:38:59PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > Without bothering with any external rule-making regarding periodicity, it seems to me that the PoCF would first redistribute exactly 2 weeks (to the minute, presumably) after this proposal succeeds and creates said Potato; and it would then do it every two weeks (to the minute) thereafter, which seems reasonable enough. Also, a question: is the intention that a single, randomly selected player recieves the Potato-holder's coins, or that for each coin, a random recipient is selected? The nature of this wealth-redistribution sort of depends on the answer. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From bdonlan@b... Sun Apr 27 15:13:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:13:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 32669 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:13:01 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D697514E417; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:12:54 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:12:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304271812.53675.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 02:38 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". > >> > >> Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail > > unless > > >> someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote > >> against it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a > >> proposal can be known unless any registration proposals occur, and no > >> registration > > proposals > > >> are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. > >> > >> Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another > >> Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: > >> > >> > >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > >> description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset= , > > each > > >> Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a > > random > > >> player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposal, > >> promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato o= f > > Cash > > >> Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. > >> > > > >Sounds good and other than the "promise" issue I'd be all for this, exce= pt > > one little thing: it > > >violates the TSLs by creating a hot potato, but without destroying > > anything... > > Yeah. I forgot to have it destroy itself. > So, as I do whenever I screw up like that, I submit the following: > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > FOR. - --=20 bd O sonho e a esperan=E7a s=E3o dois calmantes que a natureza concede ao ser humano. -- Frederico I -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rFXlx533NjVSos4RAhfcAJ90pbiYauDzDXUqKi62KMRb2SFcRQCgr5AQ eaArt1rQJVVHX2mpAz/J3mk=3D =3D5iSS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 15:37:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:37:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 95427 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:37:45 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABBCF3FD006E; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:37:48 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:37:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030427181030.B13221@a...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Also, a question: is the intention that a single, randomly selected >player recieves the Potato-holder's coins, or that for each coin, a >random recipient is selected? The nature of this wealth-redistribution >sort of depends on the answer. A random recipient for each coin. From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 15:38:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:38:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 64607 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:38:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:38:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:38:22 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABE11CC3023A; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:38:25 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:38:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304271812.53675.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its >> description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full >> weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash >> Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random >> player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random >> player. This proposal shall be destroyed. >> >FOR. Oh, yeah. Me too. From cortex@n... Sun Apr 27 15:43:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:43:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 89017 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:43:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:43:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:43:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13403 invoked by uid 1006); 27 Apr 2003 22:43:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:43:21 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030427184321.A13334@a...> References: <200304271812.53675.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 06:38:27PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 06:38:27PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >> > >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > >> description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > >> weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > >> Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > >> player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > >> player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > >> > > >FOR. > > Oh, yeah. Me too. Josh vote FOR! -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 15:45:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 22:45:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 45641 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 22:45:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 22:45:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 22:45:34 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD9119020236; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:45:37 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:45:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030427180153.A13221@a...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >This suggests a place for similar potatoes of Majority, Minority, >Negation and Abstention. Though then there'd be a question of >precedence, if someone held more than one of these potatoes. So they'd >have to be a constructed set with that in mind. Potato of Agreement: "Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato automatically votes FOR the proposal. If more than one hot potato attempts to control that player's vote, then which potato takes effect will be determined randomly." Potato of Contrarianism: "Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato automatically votes AGAINST the proposal, unless that proposal would modify the Three Sacred Laws, in which case e ABSTAINS on the proposal. If more than one hot potato attempts to control that player's vote, then which potato takes effect will be determined randomly." Of course, we don't want too many voting potatoes out there - it would really suck if everyone just had to put up with their potatoes. So let's limit it to two, for a while at least. I also think someone should come up with a description for the "Potatoe". From kellyia@e... Sun Apr 27 19:56:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 02:56:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 21080 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 02:56:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 02:56:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 02:56:12 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3S2tbGF019343 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:55:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.161.194 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:55:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1970.159.28.161.194.1051498537.squirrel@w...> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:55:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto To: In-Reply-To: <20030427181030.B13221@a...> References: <3EAC2271.4551679F@u...> <20030427181030.B13221@a...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.67 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Josh wrote: > On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 02:38:59PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: >> >> >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its >> description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two >> full weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato >> of Cash Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to >> a random player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession >> of a random player. This proposal shall be destroyed. >> > > Without bothering with any external rule-making regarding periodicity, > it seems to me that the PoCF would first redistribute exactly 2 weeks > (to the minute, presumably) after this proposal succeeds and creates > said Potato; and it would then do it every two weeks (to the minute) > thereafter, which seems reasonable enough. Except that if the time is that predictable, the holder of the hot potato can simply hold on to it until 10 seconds before it goes off and then give it away to whomever ey wants, which is not all that interesting. Ian From ragnarok@p... Sun Apr 27 20:02:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 03:02:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 69865 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 03:02:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 03:02:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 03:02:21 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9C319B90236; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:27 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <1970.159.28.161.194.1051498537.squirrel@w...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>> >>> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its >>> description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two >>> full weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato >>> of Cash Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to >>> a random player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession >>> of a random player. This proposal shall be destroyed. >>> >> >> Without bothering with any external rule-making regarding periodicity, >> it seems to me that the PoCF would first redistribute exactly 2 weeks >> (to the minute, presumably) after this proposal succeeds and creates >> said Potato; and it would then do it every two weeks (to the minute) >> thereafter, which seems reasonable enough. >Except that if the time is that predictable, the holder of the hot potato >can simply hold on to it until 10 seconds before it goes off and then give >it away to whomever ey wants, which is not all that interesting. Good catch. I'm glad we didn't need to wait for anyone to try that. Now, how would you recommend handling it instead? From cortex@n... Sun Apr 27 21:29:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 04:29:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 70546 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 04:29:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 04:29:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 04:29:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 14186 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 04:29:49 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:29:49 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030428002949.A14058@a...> References: <1970.159.28.161.194.1051498537.squirrel@w...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:02:28PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:02:28PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > >Except that if the time is that predictable, the holder of the hot potato > >can simply hold on to it until 10 seconds before it goes off and then give > >it away to whomever ey wants, which is not all that interesting. Right. > Good catch. I'm glad we didn't need to wait for anyone to try that. > Now, how would you recommend handling it instead? A simple method would be to set up a hot-potato-event machine that would mail announcements to the list when specific hot potatoes trigger. It could have an e-mail interface, or it could be managed by an Officer; it would be given instructions (perhaps just a minimum and maximum time of expiration) and would then elect a random time to fire off the relevant announcement. This would have to be created, tested and maintained by someone, though, and that someone would most probably be a player, and that brings up an issue of trust -- how do the other players know that the administrator of Hot Potatimer isn't rigging the game? Assuming such ethical questions can be settled satisfactorily, though, I would be happy to create such an app. (One could, of course, provide the source code to all players, but then how do we prove that the same program is the one being run? Or that the program is running at all? A clever deciever could generate fake input by emself, indistinguishable from that which the program should generate. And this all assumes that the players are literate in the language of choice. Perhaps the program could use a simple and easy-to-implement random number generation algorithm, and have some method of choosing the seed for each expiration decision. The program would record and store the seed for each decision, and reveal it after a set period for inspection and verification. The seed would be gotten from some sort of external, unpredictable phenomenon (the product of the high temperatures of three consecutive days in Phoenix, or something) to prevent nasty choosing of seeds by the aforementioned deciever. But then, even that could be boondoggled somehow; and I'm brainstorming here without thinking too much about the ideas expressed, so much of this may just be downright silly.) Other suggestions? Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From kellyia@e... Sun Apr 27 21:48:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 04:48:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 53738 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 04:48:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 04:48:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 04:48:28 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3S4mPGG018321 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:48:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030427233905.0279d480@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:46:54 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto In-Reply-To: <20030428002949.A14058@a...> References: <1970.159.28.161.194.1051498537.squirrel@w...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.67 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 11:29 PM 4/27/03, Josh wrote: >On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:02:28PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > >Except that if the time is that predictable, the holder of the hot potato > > >can simply hold on to it until 10 seconds before it goes off and then give > > >it away to whomever ey wants, which is not all that interesting. > >Right. > > > Good catch. I'm glad we didn't need to wait for anyone to try that. > > Now, how would you recommend handling it instead? > >A simple method would be to set up a hot-potato-event machine that would >mail announcements to the list when specific hot potatoes trigger. It >could have an e-mail interface, or it could be managed by an Officer; it >would be given instructions (perhaps just a minimum and maximum time of >expiration) and would then elect a random time to fire off the relevant >announcement. > >This would have to be created, tested and maintained by someone, though, >and that someone would most probably be a player, and that brings up an >issue of trust -- how do the other players know that the administrator >of Hot Potatimer isn't rigging the game? > >Assuming such ethical questions can be settled satisfactorily, though, I >would be happy to create such an app. > >(One could, of course, provide the source code to all players, but then >how do we prove that the same program is the one being run? Or that the >program is running at all? A clever deciever could generate fake input >by emself, indistinguishable from that which the program should >generate. And this all assumes that the players are literate in the >language of choice. > >Perhaps the program could use a simple and easy-to-implement random >number generation algorithm, and have some method of choosing the seed >for each expiration decision. The program would record and store the >seed for each decision, and reveal it after a set period for inspection >and verification. The seed would be gotten from some sort of external, >unpredictable phenomenon (the product of the high temperatures of three >consecutive days in Phoenix, or something) to prevent nasty choosing of >seeds by the aforementioned deciever. But then, even that could be >boondoggled somehow; and I'm brainstorming here without thinking too >much about the ideas expressed, so much of this may just be downright >silly.) > >Other suggestions? I think it's going to be difficult to come up with an acceptable solution along these lines. The PBM dice server is a good source of random numbers because it's PGP-signed and run by a third party. As you point out, a hot potato event machine would almost certainly be maintained by a player. We would probably be best off sticking to something concrete. Perhaps it could go off something like every 100th message to the Thermo list sent by a player who hasn't recently held the hot potato. Or perhaps it could be linked to something in the real world, such as stock prices; it is unlikely that any collaboration of Thermo players would have sufficient sway over the stock market as to make such determinations unreliable. Ian From bdonlan@b... Mon Apr 28 03:14:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 10:14:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 23129 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 10:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 10:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 10:14:36 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3DE5C14E423; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:14:35 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:14:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304280614.34223.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 April 2003 11:02 pm, Craig wrote: > >>> > >>> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > >>> description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two > >>> full weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato > >>> of Cash Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to > >>> a random player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posessio= n > >>> of a random player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > >>> > >> > >> Without bothering with any external rule-making regarding periodicity, > >> it seems to me that the PoCF would first redistribute exactly 2 weeks > >> (to the minute, presumably) after this proposal succeeds and creates > >> said Potato; and it would then do it every two weeks (to the minute) > >> thereafter, which seems reasonable enough. > > > >Except that if the time is that predictable, the holder of the hot potat= o > >can simply hold on to it until 10 seconds before it goes off and then gi= ve > >it away to whomever ey wants, which is not all that interesting. > > Good catch. I'm glad we didn't need to wait for anyone to try that. > Now, how would you recommend handling it instead? Well, in B Nomic, we had something vaguely similar - the Cursed Sushi of=20 Babel. The holder of the Babel Fish would have to translate all messages to= =20 korean and back in every public forum message. The player could give it awa= y=20 after a sppecified time, or at any time someone else could voulentarily tak= e=20 it. It got repealed, because the results were annoying. But could something= =20 similar (giving it away after a specified length, or being able to take it)= =20 work here? A player could trade the potato of $foo to someone, along with=20 some incentive that offsets the loss of holding said potato. - --=20 bd It seems to make an auto driver mad if he misses you. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rP8Kx533NjVSos4RAh25AKDODy44rahBy6d4QDlWGukCwNBJNACgvYJ4 oPUo0n+6NfiucwC4+8T52i8=3D =3DIzmM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 04:24:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 11:24:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 20919 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 11:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 11:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 11:24:10 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF581697025C; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:08 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [Spoon-business] Re: [spoon-discuss] Be careful what you wish for Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >>Just got this on the thermo list. Perhaps we should speculate less >> >> freely? The goal isn't to subjugate other nomics. At least, not as far >> >> as I know. >> > >> >I just sent a message to Thermo on the topic. Hopefully the destructive >> >tendencies of two players won't spoil things for the rest of us. >> >> -Orc? Do. Not. Place. Blame. The "destructive tendencies of two players" I >> assume to mean bd and I talking about... "mutually beneficial agreements." >> It's called a joke, Orc. You didn't complain at the time. If Thermo is >> going to be scared off by that, they're a skittish bunch. On that note, >> though, I suggest everyone make sure they're still subscribed to >> bnomic-private. Perhaps some messages should go through a controlled forum. >> I don't imagine we'll complain if Thermo creates a secret group list. Games >> have to have their secrets, especially if they don't trust each other.- >In the interests of openness, trust, etc etc, I'd like to point out that the >archives for said list are at: I am assuming I speak for all of Thermo (I'm CCing it to them in case they wish to contradict me, tho) when I say that although the original e-mail was worrisome, we understand that B Nomic harbors no ill will toward us or anyone else, and we welcome you as a future trading partner. From unlin_e@y... Mon Apr 28 11:03:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 18:03:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 38859 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 18:03:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 18:03:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11405.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.235) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 18:03:20 -0000 Message-ID: <20030428180318.37831.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:03:18 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in > >> > >> rule > >> > >> >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the > purposes > >> > >> of > >> > >> >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. > >> > >> Rule > >> > >> >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will > be > >> >> > created. > >> >> > > >> >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will > be > >> >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its > own > >> >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect > >> >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as > >> >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be > >> > >> created > >> > >> >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will > >> > >> frantically > >> > >> >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." > >> >> > > >> >> > This proposal is destroyed. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. > >> > > >> >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a > >> >proposal. > >> > >> Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > >> potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. > > >FOR. > > Me too. > Me three. (sez unlin_e) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From unlin_e@y... Mon Apr 28 11:19:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 18:19:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 70298 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 18:19:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 18:19:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.236) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 18:19:33 -0000 Message-ID: <20030428181932.80598.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:19:32 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200304271812.53675.bdonlan@b...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Sunday 27 April 2003 02:38 pm, Craig wrote: > > >> >I hereby vote FOR "hot potatoes". > > >> > > >> Having gotten three affirmative votes in, this proposal cannot fail > > > > unless > > > > >> someone registers quickly and Josh, unlin_e, and someone all vote > > >> against it. I think we need a system where when the outcome of a > > >> proposal can be known unless any registration proposals occur, and no > > >> registration > > > > proposals > > > > >> are Pending, the proposal expires immediately. > > >> > > >> Anyway, since 'hot potatoes' is going to pass, I hereby submit another > > >> Potato Proposal, which I am FOR: > > >> > > >> > > >> A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > > >> description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, > > > > each > > > > >> Coin belonging to the posessor of this hot potato will be given to a > > > > random > > > > >> player." The group owner, who is also the submitter of the proposal, > > >> promises not to change the frequency of such occurrences. The Potato of > > > > Cash > > > > >> Flow shall begin in the posession of a random player. > > >> > > > > > >Sounds good and other than the "promise" issue I'd be all for this, except > > > > one little thing: it > > > > >violates the TSLs by creating a hot potato, but without destroying > > > > anything... > > > > Yeah. I forgot to have it destroy itself. > > So, as I do whenever I screw up like that, I submit the following: > > > > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > FOR. > - -- > bd I'm a pauper, so I feel safe in also voting FOR. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From unlin_e@y... Mon Apr 28 11:28:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 18:28:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 60475 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 18:28:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 18:28:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11408.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.238) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 18:28:41 -0000 Message-ID: <20030428182841.95605.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:28:41 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20030427180153.A13221@a...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- cortex wrote: > On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:26:48PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > > > Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > > potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. > > Any potato ideas, other than my Potato of Cash Flow? > > I am wildy, overwhelmingly, mind-crushingly FOR said > this-time-it-really-is-a proposal. > > As for potato ideas, I think we could see interesting things happen with > a Potato of Hasty Agreement: at such time as all but one players have > voted on a proposal, the remaining player is considered to have voted > FOR that proposal if ey hold this Potato. > > This suggests a place for similar potatoes of Majority, Minority, > Negation and Abstention. Though then there'd be a question of > precedence, if someone held more than one of these potatoes. So they'd > have to be a constructed set with that in mind. > > Josh > There's no question of precedence, by Rule 3.2 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 11:29:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 18:29:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 63369 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 18:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 18:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 18:29:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 9322 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 18:29:54 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 18:29:54 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3SITsg30544 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:29:54 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAD7395.377FB15A@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:31:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: <20030428180318.37831.qmail@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 sonof wrote: > --- Craig wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in > > >> > > >> rule > > >> > > >> >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the > > purposes > > >> > > >> of > > >> > > >> >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. > > >> > > >> Rule > > >> > > >> >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will > > be > > >> >> > created. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will > > be > > >> >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its > > own > > >> >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect > > >> >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as > > >> >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be > > >> > > >> created > > >> > > >> >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will > > >> > > >> frantically > > >> > > >> >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." > > >> >> > > > >> >> > This proposal is destroyed. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. > > >> > > > >> >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a > > >> >proposal. > > >> > > >> Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > > >> potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. > > > > >FOR. > > > > Me too. > > > Me three. (sez unlin_e) > And with that "hot potatoes" is passed. The current version of the ruleset is ruleset.20030428.txt. In the process I've noticed I don't have ownership of the ruleset.txt file, and I'm guessing that that's because a moderator (Craig) needed to own it in order that it'll be mailed out periodically. So, unless anyone has an objection, I'd like to ask that I be given moderator status in the group. That way Craig won't have to worry about keeping up with the ruleset file. From kellyia@e... Mon Apr 28 12:03:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 19:03:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 58852 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 19:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 19:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 19:03:03 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3SJ2pGF067308 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.56.94 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3797.159.28.56.94.1051556571.squirrel@w...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto To: In-Reply-To: <20030428182841.95605.qmail@w...> References: <20030427180153.A13221@a...> <20030428182841.95605.qmail@w...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.69 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan sonof wrote: > > --- cortex wrote: >> On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:26:48PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: >> > >> > Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot >> potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. >> > Any potato ideas, other than my Potato of Cash Flow? >> >> I am wildy, overwhelmingly, mind-crushingly FOR said >> this-time-it-really-is-a proposal. >> >> As for potato ideas, I think we could see interesting things happen >> with a Potato of Hasty Agreement: at such time as all but one players >> have voted on a proposal, the remaining player is considered to have >> voted FOR that proposal if ey hold this Potato. >> >> This suggests a place for similar potatoes of Majority, Minority, >> Negation and Abstention. Though then there'd be a question of >> precedence, if someone held more than one of these potatoes. So >> they'd have to be a constructed set with that in mind. >> >> Josh >> > > There's no question of precedence, by Rule 3.2 3.2 only applies to rules, not potatoes. Ian From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 13:01:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 20:01:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 20795 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 20:01:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 20:01:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 20:01:47 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8AD1C3D026A; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:01:49 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:01:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAD7395.377FB15A@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >The current version of the ruleset is ruleset.20030428.txt. In the process I've noticed I don't >have ownership of the ruleset.txt file, and I'm guessing that that's because a moderator (Craig) >needed to own it in order that it'll be mailed out periodically. So, unless anyone has an >objection, I'd like to ask that I be given moderator status in the group. That way Craig won't >have to worry about keeping up with the ruleset file. Done. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 13:05:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 20:05:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 5987 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 20:05:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 20:05:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 20:05:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A99C19DE017E; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:05:48 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:05:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3797.159.28.56.94.1051556571.squirrel@w...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>> This suggests a place for similar potatoes of Majority, Minority, >>> Negation and Abstention. Though then there'd be a question of >>> precedence, if someone held more than one of these potatoes. So >>> they'd have to be a constructed set with that in mind. >>> >>> Josh >>> >> >> There's no question of precedence, by Rule 3.2 >3.2 only applies to rules, not potatoes. Besides, what number is the Potato of Cash Flow? I'd vote for e, but I'm crazy. From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 13:37:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 20:37:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 80264 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 20:27:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 20:27:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 20:27:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 10680 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 20:27:15 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 20:27:15 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3SKREW24989 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:27:14 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EAD8F17.FAFCCB3C@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:29:11 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >The current version of the ruleset is ruleset.20030428.txt. In the process > I've noticed I don't > >have ownership of the ruleset.txt file, and I'm guessing that that's > because a moderator (Craig) > >needed to own it in order that it'll be mailed out periodically. So, > unless anyone has an > >objection, I'd like to ask that I be given moderator status in the group. > That way Craig won't > >have to worry about keeping up with the ruleset file. > > Done. > Thanks. I've transferred the ruleset to ruleset.txt, w/ 2 week send-outs. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 15:10:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:10:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 8629 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:10:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:10:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:10:44 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6E715790280; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:10:47 -0400 To: Subject: Instapassage Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:10:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I've come up with a way to speed up the proposal process. What do y'all think of renumbering rule 5.8 to 5.9, then adding a rule 5.8 that "Whenever enough players have voted on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of any registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration proposals are Pending, the proposal expires." or some such? From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 15:10:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:10:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 11590 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:10:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:10:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:10:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 17256 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 22:10:46 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:10:46 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030428181046.A17214@a...> References: <1970.159.28.161.194.1051498537.squirrel@w...> <20030428002949.A14058@a...> <5.2.1.1.0.20030427233905.0279d480@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030427233905.0279d480@m...>; from kellyia@e... on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:46:54PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:46:54PM -0500, Ian Kelly keyboarded: > > > >This would have to be created, tested and maintained by someone, though, > >and that someone would most probably be a player, and that brings up an > >issue of trust -- how do the other players know that the administrator > >of Hot Potatimer isn't rigging the game? > > I think it's going to be difficult to come up with an acceptable solution > along these lines. The PBM dice server is a good source of random numbers > because it's PGP-signed and run by a third party. As you point out, a hot > potato event machine would almost certainly be maintained by a player. We > would probably be best off sticking to something concrete. Perhaps it > could go off something like every 100th message to the Thermo list sent by > a player who hasn't recently held the hot potato. Or perhaps it could be > linked to something in the real world, such as stock prices; it is unlikely > that any collaboration of Thermo players would have sufficient sway over > the stock market as to make such determinations unreliable. Aye, that solves the Wizard of Oz aspect of the problem. I suppose the next step is to figure out some means of formalizing the trigger-checking interaction with the stock market (or other suitable crazy random-ish process). If we wanted to use the stock market, how would we specify a trigger? One idea: let the Potato of Agreement state that, when a proposal is made, the owner of the PoA is automatically considered to have voted FOR the proposal iff the Dow is up from the opening of the market that day? (Not good enough, though, since the market is closed much of the time. But it's a ferexample.) We'd have to have some way of checking the current state of the market (or, really, the state of the market at any given time, since, unless we do something clever with the mailing list, we'll have to manually process the arrival of a proposal and check the market's standing at the time that the proposal was officially submitted). Am I overthinking this? Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 15:16:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:16:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 59657 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:16:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:16:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:16:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A84B15B802A6; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:16:43 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:16:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030428181046.A17214@a...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >This would have to be created, tested and maintained by someone, though, >> >and that someone would most probably be a player, and that brings up an >> >issue of trust -- how do the other players know that the administrator >> >of Hot Potatimer isn't rigging the game? >> >> I think it's going to be difficult to come up with an acceptable solution >> along these lines. The PBM dice server is a good source of random numbers >> because it's PGP-signed and run by a third party. As you point out, a hot >> potato event machine would almost certainly be maintained by a player. We >> would probably be best off sticking to something concrete. Perhaps it >> could go off something like every 100th message to the Thermo list sent by >> a player who hasn't recently held the hot potato. Or perhaps it could be >> linked to something in the real world, such as stock prices; it is unlikely >> that any collaboration of Thermo players would have sufficient sway over >> the stock market as to make such determinations unreliable. >Aye, that solves the Wizard of Oz aspect of the problem. I suppose the >next step is to figure out some means of formalizing the >trigger-checking interaction with the stock market (or other suitable >crazy random-ish process). If we wanted to use the stock market, how >would we specify a trigger? >One idea: let the Potato of Agreement state that, when a proposal is >made, the owner of the PoA is automatically considered to have voted FOR >the proposal iff the Dow is up from the opening of the market that day? How 'bout using Yahoo's message numbers? If the number of the message in which a trigger is given away mod foo is bar, the potato goes off. Or, when a message whose number has certain properties is posted, the potato goes off a set amount of time later. Someone would have to monitor the numbers to track the Potato Detonations, tho, and that player could have a big advantage over others who weren't paying attention. From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 15:23:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:23:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 23320 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:23:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:23:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:23:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 17310 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 22:23:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:23:09 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Instapassage Message-ID: <20030428182309.B17214@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:10:55PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:10:55PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > I've come up with a way to speed up the proposal process. What do y'all > think of renumbering rule 5.8 to 5.9, then adding a rule 5.8 that "Whenever > enough players have voted on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in > the absence of any registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no > registration proposals are Pending, the proposal expires." or some such? On the one hand, I like it. Speeds things up, prevents us having to suffer the lag of a slow/absent/dead player. On the other hand, I don't like it. In a vague, sneaky, What If I Want To Force A Delay For Nefarious Purposes As Yet Unimagined sort of a way. So mostly I'm in favor of the idea. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 15:26:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:26:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 76249 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:26:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 17326 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 22:26:47 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:26:47 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030428182647.C17214@a...> References: <20030428181046.A17214@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:16:51PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:16:51PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > >One idea: let the Potato of Agreement state that, when a proposal is > >made, the owner of the PoA is automatically considered to have voted FOR > >the proposal iff the Dow is up from the opening of the market that day? > > How 'bout using Yahoo's message numbers? If the number of the message in > which a trigger is given away mod foo is bar, the potato goes off. Or, when > a message whose number has certain properties is posted, the potato goes off > a set amount of time later. Someone would have to monitor the numbers to > track the Potato Detonations, tho, and that player could have a big > advantage over others who weren't paying attention. Yeah, that's the trick. Of course, we could try to automate the process and make the current state of such things part of the info available on Dr. D's page, or something, which would even things out a bit. Hmm. I have many ideas that aren't workable jumping around in my head. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 15:56:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:56:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 9882 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:37:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:37:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:37:06 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD15171A0260; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:37:09 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Instapassage Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:37:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030428182309.B17214@a...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >On the other hand, I don't like it. In a vague, sneaky, What If I Want >To Force A Delay For Nefarious Purposes As Yet Unimagined sort of a way. I can see forcing things through quickly For Nefarious Purposes As Yet Unimagined also. NPAYU can occur whatever the ruleset. From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 15:56:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 22:56:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 10423 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:37:22 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD261D42026A; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:37:26 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:37:34 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030428182647.C17214@a...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I have many ideas that aren't workable jumping around in my head. Suggest them. Perhaps someone can fix them. From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 16:09:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:09:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 58428 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:09:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 17448 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 23:09:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:09:04 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto Message-ID: <20030428190904.B17339@a...> References: <20030428182647.C17214@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:37:34PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:37:34PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >I have many ideas that aren't workable jumping around in my head. > > Suggest them. Perhaps someone can fix them. A couple that are compelling for some weird reason: 1. Using the output of one of those "numbers stations" (radio stations that transmit nothing but an unending stream of digits read in a creepy monotone) as the seed/trigger for events. 2. Making telephone calls to randomly-generated numbers and asking a specific question -- using the answer given (or the particular state of of non-workingness of the number) as a decider/trigger. These things are sort of cumbersome and silly and hard to regulate, but they occur to me anyway. I will certainly post anything with a bit more robustness and simplicity that occurs to me, though. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 16:09:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:09:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 2260 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 22:04:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 22:04:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 22:04:12 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A55F1867025C; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:04:15 -0400 To: Subject: Cleanup time Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:04:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl All non-pending proposals are destroyed. I'm FOR it. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Mon Apr 28 16:11:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:11:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 67601 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:11:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:11:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:11:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 4908 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:11:14 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:11:14 -0000 Received: from yahoogroups.com (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3SNBDT23505; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:11:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EADB589.8EABD158@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:13:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dice Server , ThermoDyNomic Subject: Test dice server mailing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com #S 6 #D 1 #R 2 #L 2 #C Just checking #T Test mailing 2003-04-28 From bdonlan@b... Mon Apr 28 16:14:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:14:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 77398 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:14:21 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 10D4314E5A1; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:14:19 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Cleanup time Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:14:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304281914.19056.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 28 April 2003 06:04 pm, Craig wrote: > > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. > > > I'm FOR it. FOR(;;); - --=20 bd Lake Erie died for your sins. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rbXKx533NjVSos4RAh1UAJ4+AHpaAoyptc9RX8lBWSDavuobKACeIyGW yNY5wsK5wnrX+dCmOkmZ7Y8=3D =3DCnd3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 16:14:38 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:14:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 48734 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:14:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:14:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:14:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 17496 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 23:14:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:14:26 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Cleanup time Message-ID: <20030428191426.C17339@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:04:23PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:04:23PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. > > > I'm FOR it. This'd be FOR number two. -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 16:17:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:17:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 94966 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:04:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:04:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:04:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 17440 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 23:04:08 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:04:08 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Instapassage Message-ID: <20030428190408.A17339@a...> References: <20030428182309.B17214@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:37:17PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 06:37:17PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >On the other hand, I don't like it. In a vague, sneaky, What If I Want > >To Force A Delay For Nefarious Purposes As Yet Unimagined sort of a way. > > I can see forcing things through quickly For Nefarious Purposes As Yet > Unimagined also. NPAYU can occur whatever the ruleset. True, true. And as I said, I'm mostly for the idea anyway. Potato of NPAYU, anyone? Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 16:23:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:23:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 761 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:23:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:23:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:23:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 17094 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:23:39 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:23:39 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3SNNc509760 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:23:38 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EADB873.62B534A3@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:25:39 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Cleanup time References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > All non-pending proposals are destroyed. > > > I'm FOR it. > Why, oh, why, oh why??????? Why do you keep destroying all our wonderfull things? Not even with a good purpose, like another rule, or some amusing potato, or anything... Just **POOF** all gone. On the basis of sheer stubornness I will be refraining from voting on this until absolutely the last possible moment. From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 16:33:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:33:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 91020 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:33:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:33:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:33:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 17569 invoked by uid 1006); 28 Apr 2003 23:33:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:33:16 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Cleanup time Message-ID: <20030428193316.D17339@a...> References: <200304281914.19056.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200304281914.19056.bdonlan@b...>; from bdonlan@b... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 07:14:18PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 07:14:18PM -0400, bd keyboarded: > > FOR(;;); Heh. -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 16:35:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:35:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 19407 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:35:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:35:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:35:53 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AADD1D8D026A; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:35:57 -0400 To: Subject: Potatoes anyone? Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:36:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl A hot potato shall be created in the posession of a random player. It shall be known as the Potato of Contrarianism. Its description shall be as follows: Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato shall vote AGAINST it if it would not alter the Three Sacred Laws, and shall ABSTAIN if it would. If multiple hot potatoes try to determine that player's vote, which one succeeds will be random. This proposal shall be destroyed. A hot potato shall be created in the posession of a random player. It shall be known as the Potato of Agreement. Its description shall be as follows: Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato shall vote FOR it. If multiple hot potatoes try to determine that player's vote, which one succeeds will be random. This proposal shall be destroyed. I am FOR both. From bdonlan@b... Mon Apr 28 16:38:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 28 Apr 2003 23:38:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 60516 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2003 23:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2003 23:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2003 23:38:56 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 12BDB14E5A7; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:38:55 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potatoes anyone? Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:38:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304281938.55377.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 28 April 2003 07:36 pm, Craig wrote: > > A hot potato shall be created in the posession of a random player. It sha= ll > be known as the Potato of Contrarianism. Its description shall be as > follows: > Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato shall > vote AGAINST it if it would not alter the Three Sacred Laws, and shall > ABSTAIN if it would. If multiple hot potatoes try to determine that > player's vote, which one succeeds will be random. > > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > A hot potato shall be created in the posession of a random player. It sha= ll > be known as the Potato of Agreement. Its description shall be as follows: > Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato shall > vote FOR it. If multiple hot potatoes try to determine that player's vote= , > which one succeeds will be random. > > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > I am FOR both. foreach $proposal in 'contrarianism' 'agreement' tell $proposal 'vote FOR' done - --=20 bd The thrill is here, but it won't last long You'd better have your fun before it moves along... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rbuPx533NjVSos4RAjm4AJ9me69HDgJpmTyQXCoYk7UQ/9HdiACffvvR fskr6fS/B0GCaGLyGbG1gG4=3D =3DavVf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 17:11:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 00:11:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 27595 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 00:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 00:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 00:11:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 17688 invoked by uid 1006); 29 Apr 2003 00:11:51 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:11:51 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potatoes anyone? Message-ID: <20030428201151.A17576@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 07:36:04PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Apr 28, 2003 at 07:36:04PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > A hot potato shall be created in the posession of a random player. It shall > be known as the Potato of Contrarianism. Its description shall be as > follows: > Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato shall vote > AGAINST it if it would not alter the Three Sacred Laws, and shall ABSTAIN if > it would. If multiple hot potatoes try to determine that player's vote, > which one succeeds will be random. > > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > A hot potato shall be created in the posession of a random player. It shall > be known as the Potato of Agreement. Its description shall be as follows: > Whenever a proposal is submitted, the posessor of this hot potato shall vote > FOR it. If multiple hot potatoes try to determine that player's vote, which > one succeeds will be random. > > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > I am FOR both. Damn, yo. I'm all about this shiznit. FOR both of 'em. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From cortex@n... Mon Apr 28 17:19:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 00:19:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 3946 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 00:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 00:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 00:19:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 17720 invoked by uid 1006); 29 Apr 2003 00:19:35 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:19:35 -0400 To: Thermodynomic Subject: Some votes! Message-ID: <20030428201935.B17576@a...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard I am FOR the following proposals: 16 -- ENSP 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix 18 -- Free Trade I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 18:39:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 01:39:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 41229 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 01:39:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 01:39:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 01:39:10 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7C215D40258; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:39:14 -0400 To: Subject: Potato of Speedy Passage Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:39:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Not actually a potato. Just a fun name. Rule 5.8 shall be repealed, and in its place an identical rule shall be created with the number 5.9. A new rule 5.8 shall be created, reading "Whenever enough players have voted on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of any registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration proposals are Pending, the proposal expires." I'm all for it. But then again, it's my idea. From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 19:15:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 02:15:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 41764 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:15:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 02:15:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:15:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 6465 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:15:26 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:15:26 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3T2FQL26894 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:15:26 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EADE0BA.7E02C8F8@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:17:30 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Some votes! References: <20030428201935.B17576@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > I am FOR the following proposals: > > 16 -- ENSP > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix > 18 -- Free Trade > > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. > > Josh > I've discovered a BIG problem... There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with Josh's vote, ENSP is also trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 19:16:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 02:16:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 49951 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:16:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 02:16:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:16:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17974 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:16:58 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:16:58 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3T2GwR28065 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:16:58 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EADE116.FA8E387F@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:19:02 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Some votes! References: <20030428201935.B17576@a...> <3EADE0BA.7E02C8F8@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > cortex wrote: > > > I am FOR the following proposals: > > > > 16 -- ENSP > > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix > > 18 -- Free Trade > > > > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. > > > > Josh > > > > I've discovered a BIG problem... > > There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with Josh's vote, ENSP is also > trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. > that should be "now" not "not" From ragnarok@p... Mon Apr 28 19:20:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 02:20:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 30615 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:20:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 02:20:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:20:06 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A15B1C3A017E; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:20:11 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Some votes! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:20:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EADE116.FA8E387F@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > I am FOR the following proposals: >> > >> > 16 -- ENSP >> > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix >> > 18 -- Free Trade >> > >> > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. >> > >> > Josh >> > >> >> I've discovered a BIG problem... >> >> There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with Josh's vote, ENSP is also >> trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. >> >that should be "now" not "not" Everyone vote quick to rush this through before there is a problem: The rule 15.0 created by the proposal 'eco nomic stimulus package' will be given the number 15.01 so as not to conflict with the rule 15.00 created by 'hot potatoes'. FOR. From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 19:28:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 02:28:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 63779 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:28:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 02:28:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:28:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 20049 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:28:15 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:28:15 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3T2SFR07564 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:28:15 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EADE3BB.B1FBF670@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:30:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Some votes! References: <20030428201935.B17576@a...> <3EADE0BA.7E02C8F8@u...> <3EADE116.FA8E387F@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > cortex wrote: > > > > > I am FOR the following proposals: > > > > > > 16 -- ENSP > > > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix > > > 18 -- Free Trade > > > > > > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. > > > > > > Josh > > > > > > > I've discovered a BIG problem... > > > > There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with Josh's vote, ENSP is also > > trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. > > > > that should be "now" not "not" > After a review of the rules, I have cone to the conclusion that the rule 15.0 created by ENSP cannot be created. The pertinent rules are 6.4 and 4.1: 6.4 is trying to create a rule that has a non-unique rule number; 4.1 says that rules numbers must be unique. according to 3.2, 4.1 takes precedence over 6.4 therefore: the rule 15.0 being created cannot exist... With regard to your attempt at a correcting proposal "number conflict go bye-bye now", it serves no purpose, as rule 6.4 is very specific as to the timing involved: "When a proposal passes" From drduck@u... Mon Apr 28 19:59:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 02:59:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 24066 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:37:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 02:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:37:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 21743 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 02:37:46 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 02:37:46 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3T2bkE15017 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:37:46 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EADE5F5.3CCE1A65@u...> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:39:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato of Speedy Passage References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > Not actually a potato. Just a fun name. > > Rule 5.8 shall be repealed, and in its place an identical rule shall be > created with the number 5.9. > A new rule 5.8 shall be created, reading "Whenever enough players have voted > on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of any > registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration proposals > are Pending, the proposal expires." > > I'm all for it. But then again, it's my idea. > TSL violation. -1 Rule (5.8) +2 Rules (5.8, 5.9) _________ +1 Thing total From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 03:29:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 10:29:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 54496 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 10:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 10:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 10:29:21 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3FF13430290; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:29:19 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Some votes! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:29:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EADE3BB.B1FBF670@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > > I am FOR the following proposals: >> > > >> > > 16 -- ENSP >> > > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix >> > > 18 -- Free Trade >> > > >> > > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. >> > > >> > > Josh >> > > >> > >> > I've discovered a BIG problem... >> > >> > There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with Josh's vote, ENSP is also >> > trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. >> > >> >> that should be "now" not "not" >> >After a review of the rules, I have cone to the conclusion that the rule 15.0 created by ENSP >cannot be created. >The pertinent rules are 6.4 and 4.1: >6.4 is trying to create a rule that has a non-unique rule number; >4.1 says that rules numbers must be unique. >according to 3.2, 4.1 takes precedence over 6.4 Dammit. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 03:29:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 10:29:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 325 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 10:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 10:29:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 10:29:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4211DBB0236; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:29:53 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Potato of Speedy Passage Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:30:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EADE5F5.3CCE1A65@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Not actually a potato. Just a fun name. >> >> Rule 5.8 shall be repealed, and in its place an identical rule shall be >> created with the number 5.9. >> A new rule 5.8 shall be created, reading "Whenever enough players have voted >> on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of any >> registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration proposals >> are Pending, the proposal expires." >> >> I'm all for it. But then again, it's my idea. >TSL violation. Dammit. It was supposed to destroy itself. From orcinaspacesuit@h... Tue Apr 29 07:58:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: orcinaspacesuit@h... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 14:58:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 52253 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 14:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 14:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 14:16:55 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:16:55 -0700 Received: from 130.184.174.194 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:16:54 GMT X-Originating-Email: [orcinaspacesuit@h...] To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, nomicmarket@n..., spoon-discuss@n... Bcc: Subject: Market suggestions Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:16:54 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Apr 2003 14:16:55.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[FCA66F70:01C30E59] From: "Orc In A Spacesuit" X-Originating-IP: [130.184.174.194] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public Regarding the Nomic Market: First issue: A reminder. The Nomic Market mailing list is at http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/nomicmarket . I'd be posting this just there there, but I think a few more people should be on that list before I start doing so. Second Issue: Receiving. I think that accepting an object should be optional. Here's why: Objects may be in themselves bad to have. A B Nomic example would be the Cursed Sushi of Babel; a Thermo example would be a Hot Potato. A future example would be if there was some limitation on what/how many objects a person could have; if a proposal that will be on B's next Ballot passes everything will have a Mass, and carrying oodles of stuff will be a Bad Thing™. Duties might be imposed, which would be very problematic should people not have a choice in accepting. I'm wanting to write something like that into my current proposal, where certain (powerful) objects require a duty or tarriff be paid by the person receivng the object in order to get it. Also, some Nomics might want to say "each player may import X items per round", or something like that. Management of sillyness: A Nomic might be able to mass-produce things, whether those things be useful or not. If someone decided to flood another Nomic with sillyness, the targeted player(s) would have to go along with it first. And would have to get past any restrictions on acceptance. Third issue: Definitions. Because we're talking about multiple Nomics, I think that a special term for those who are At the Market would be a good thing for the Nomic Market. In my prop, I call them "Traders", or "B Nomic Traders" if they hail from B Nomic. Implemtenting such definitions (ie "Trader" or " Trader") within the scope of the Market rather than calling them 'players', would make things more straightforeward. Fourth issue: Enforceability. The Market rules say that an object is "destroyed in one game and created in another" when traded. Aside from the fact it doesn't say which Nomic it is created in, there's the enforceability factor: Just because the Market says something is destroyed/created doesn't mean it happens; Nomics can ignore that, and in fact, will probably have to specify in its own ruleset that things get created and destroyed. Therefore, it is very close to a do-nothing, unless a Nomic gives the Market power over it, which very few are likely to do considering how little it may take to revise the rules. Fifth issue: This issue intentionally left blank. Sixth issue: Revising. I think that revisions should be voted on by participating Nomics, rather than participating players. Also, change shouldn't be that heavily needed, and should be considered carefully. Maybe require a high percentage of participants, like 2/3 of the Nomics, or make it a majority but specify that a single negative vote (not an abstentention) could block a change. Seventh issue: Compatibility. While it isn't something that new Nomics, or those that are Imperial, have to deal with much, definitions and compatibility can be tricky. While the other issues are more important, this is something to consider. I think that the best way to do things is to have objects be "interperted" by Nomic Market in a standard form, and each individual Nomic could have a simple converter between its home rules and what Nomic Market has. Orc in a Spacesuit This sig has been ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is unlawful under the terms of the DMCA. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 09:26:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 39723 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 16714 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TGQ6k01258 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:26:06 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEA82A.6A958CED@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:28:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > I ABSTAIN. And with that vote this proposal is passed. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 09:36:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 16:36:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 9027 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 16:36:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 16:36:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 16:36:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Apr 2003 16:35:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:35:58 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Potato Proto Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3EAEA82A.6A958CED@u...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 650 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > Craig wrote: > > > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > > > I ABSTAIN. > > And with that vote this proposal is passed. Who's got the Potato, o great and randomizing Speaker Duck? From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 09:59:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 16:59:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 90929 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 16:59:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 16:59:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 16:59:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 6620 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 16:59:42 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 16:59:42 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TGxf617491 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:59:41 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EAEB00A.A91854AD@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:02:02 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig Daniel wrote: > > Craig wrote: > > > > > > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > > > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > > > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > > > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > > > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > > > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > > > > > > > I ABSTAIN. > > > > And with that vote this proposal is passed. > > Who's got the Potato, o great and randomizing Speaker Duck? > Workin' on it. Got a whole lotta things to get straightened out, but first I'd like to point your attention to rules 9.1, and 9.2. It appears to me that the Potato of Cash Flow can't be created... as hot potatoes aren't Things, as they aren't listed in the list of Things. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 12:49:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 19:49:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 4716 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 19:04:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 19:04:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 19:04:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Apr 2003 19:04:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:04:10 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Potato Proto Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3EAEB00A.A91854AD@u...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1076 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > > > > > > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash Flow. Its > > > > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has gone two full > > > > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the Potato of Cash > > > > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to a random > > > > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession of a random > > > > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ABSTAIN. > > > > > > And with that vote this proposal is passed. > > > > Who's got the Potato, o great and randomizing Speaker Duck? > > > > Workin' on it. > > Got a whole lotta things to get straightened out, but first I'd like to point your attention to > rules 9.1, and 9.2. > > It appears to me that the Potato of Cash Flow can't be created... as hot potatoes aren't Things, > as they aren't listed in the list of Things. Um, IIRC, the (recently passed) proposal 'hot potatoes' made hot potatoes Things. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 12:49:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 19:49:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 14276 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 19:49:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 19:49:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 19:49:02 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7CE7814E5B6; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:49:01 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Some votes! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:49:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291549.00726.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 28 April 2003 10:20 pm, Craig wrote: > >> > I am FOR the following proposals: > >> > > >> > 16 -- ENSP > >> > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix > >> > 18 -- Free Trade > >> > > >> > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. > >> > > >> > Josh > >> > >> I've discovered a BIG problem... > >> > >> There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with > > Josh's vote, ENSP is also > > >> trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. > > > >that should be "now" not "not" > > Everyone vote quick to rush this through before there is a problem: > > The rule 15.0 created by the proposal 'eco nomic stimulus package' will b= e > given the number 15.01 so as not to conflict with the rule 15.00 created = by > 'hot potatoes'. > > FOR. FOR. - --=20 bd I have more humility in my little finger than you have in your whole=20 ____=08=08=08=08BODY! -- from "Cerebus" #82 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rtcsx533NjVSos4RAh65AJwProFBy17nSfmC/pS34kxm0z7bvACfY1KN 0FXLpEX+1U33n08PoCgg5O4=3D =3DpeGZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 13:01:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:01:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 14955 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:01:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 32069 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:01:46 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:01:46 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TK1dr09455 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:01:39 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEDAB3.3A357DDE@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:04:03 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig Daniel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash > Flow. Its > > > > > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has > gone two full > > > > > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the > Potato of Cash > > > > > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to > a random > > > > > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession > of a random > > > > > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ABSTAIN. > > > > > > > > And with that vote this proposal is passed. > > > > > > Who's got the Potato, o great and randomizing Speaker Duck? > > > > > > > Workin' on it. > > > > Got a whole lotta things to get straightened out, but first I'd > like to point your attention to > > rules 9.1, and 9.2. > > > > It appears to me that the Potato of Cash Flow can't be created... > as hot potatoes aren't Things, > > as they aren't listed in the list of Things. > > Um, IIRC, the (recently passed) proposal 'hot potatoes' made hot > potatoes Things. > You're correct, but then the passage of "eco nomic stimulus package" then wiped out "hot potatoes" changes to rule 9.1 . It's basically a timeing issue, if hot potatoes hadn't been voted through so quickly, it would have arrived after ENSP, and thus rule 9.1 would have allowed for the creation of potatoes, but of course rule 15.0 would have been alking about The Bank, and so the hot potatoes description would have been undefined, and not had any power... Kind of a "damned of you do, damned if you don't" situation... From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 13:01:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:01:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 98100 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:01:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:01:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:01:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA2F2406026A; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:01:51 -0400 To: Subject: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:02:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl This message occured much earlier. You will notice it contains the full text of 'hot potatoes', including the clever use of NEWTEXT to make hot potatoes a thing without worrying about what else is or isn't a Thing. It also contains the hon. Speaker Dr Ducker's statement that the proposal had passed. -----Original Message----- From: drduck@s... [mailto:drduck@s...]On Behalf Of Doctor Ducker Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 2:32 PM To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato Proto sonof wrote: > --- Craig wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > The text "hot potatoes, " will be inserted before the word "and" in > > >> > > >> rule > > >> > > >> >> > 9.1 and the resulting string will be known as NEWTEXT for the > > purposes > > >> > > >> of > > >> > > >> >> > this proposal, so that we don't have to worry about other additions. > > >> > > >> Rule > > >> > > >> >> > 9.1 will be repealed, and a new rule 9.1 whose text is NEWTEXT will > > be > > >> >> > created. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > A group will be created with the heading POTATOES. A rule 15.0 will > > be > > >> >> > created in that group with the text "Each Hot Potato must have its > > own > > >> >> > unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect > > >> >> > occurs and what that effect is." The comment for POTATOES will be as > > >> >> > follows: "The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be > > >> > > >> created > > >> > > >> >> > which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will > > >> > > >> frantically > > >> > > >> >> > give them to one another as the appointed time draws near." > > >> >> > > > >> >> > This proposal is destroyed. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> I am wholeheartedly, and entirely without caution, FOR this proposal. > > >> > > > >> >It's not a proposal - it's a protoproposal. I'd be FOR it, if it was a > > >> >proposal. > > >> > > >> Wow. With the above reaction, I hereby submit a proposal titled 'hot > > >> potatoes'. It has the exact text of the proto above. > > > > >FOR. > > > > Me too. > > > Me three. (sez unlin_e) > And with that "hot potatoes" is passed. The current version of the ruleset is ruleset.20030428.txt. In the process I've noticed I don't have ownership of the ruleset.txt file, and I'm guessing that that's because a moderator (Craig) needed to own it in order that it'll be mailed out periodically. So, unless anyone has an objection, I'd like to ask that I be given moderator status in the group. That way Craig won't have to worry about keeping up with the ruleset file. To unsubscribe from this group, announce your intent to deregister and then send an email to: thermodynomic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 13:03:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:03:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1268 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:03:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 32396 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:03:22 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:03:22 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TK3Mr10716 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:03:22 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEDB1A.934440E9@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:05:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Some votes! References: <200304291549.00726.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Monday 28 April 2003 10:20 pm, Craig wrote: > > >> > I am FOR the following proposals: > > >> > > > >> > 16 -- ENSP > > >> > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix > > >> > 18 -- Free Trade > > >> > > > >> > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. > > >> > > > >> > Josh > > >> > > >> I've discovered a BIG problem... > > >> > > >> There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not with > > > > Josh's vote, ENSP is also > > > > >> trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. > > > > > >that should be "now" not "not" > > > > Everyone vote quick to rush this through before there is a problem: > > > > The rule 15.0 created by the proposal 'eco nomic stimulus package' will be > > given the number 15.01 so as not to conflict with the rule 15.00 created by > > 'hot potatoes'. > > > > FOR. > > FOR. Okay, apparently you missed it, but this won't have any impact. The rule in question already failed to be created... From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 13:16:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:16:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 88179 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:16:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 16533 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:16:02 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:16:02 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TKG2r21375 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:16:02 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEDE13.7225DA2F@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:18:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > This message occured much earlier. You will notice it contains the full text > of 'hot potatoes', including the clever use of NEWTEXT to make hot potatoes > a thing without worrying about what else is or isn't a Thing. It also > contains the hon. Speaker Dr Ducker's statement that the proposal had > passed. > Just too be clear, I am not saying that rule 9.1 never contained the text "hot potato", just that at the time of the passage of 'cash flow take 2' it did not contain such text. The sequence goes like this: hot potatoes passed : rule 9.1 contains potatoes (this is when the NEWTEXT trick was used) ENSP passed : rule 9.1 is destroyed, and then recreated without potatoes, but with Coins ENSP Fix passed : rule 9.1 is destroyed again, and then recreated without potatoes, points or Kudos cash flow 2 passed : rule 9.1 doesn't contain potatoes, therefore according to rule 9.2 the potato in question can't be created. The NEWTEXT trick is a good idea, but it's because ENSP & ENSP fix didn't use it that potatoes are non-things... From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 13:35:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:34:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 39805 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:34:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:34:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:34:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1F01812026C; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:34:56 -0400 To: Subject: RE: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:35:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAEDE13.7225DA2F@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> This message occured much earlier. You will notice it contains the full text >> of 'hot potatoes', including the clever use of NEWTEXT to make hot potatoes >> a thing without worrying about what else is or isn't a Thing. It also >> contains the hon. Speaker Dr Ducker's statement that the proposal had >> passed. >> >Just too be clear, I am not saying that rule 9.1 never contained the text "hot potato", just >that at the time of the passage of 'cash flow take 2' it did not contain such text. >The sequence goes like this: >hot potatoes passed : rule 9.1 contains potatoes (this is when the NEWTEXT trick was used) >ENSP passed : rule 9.1 is destroyed, and then recreated without potatoes, but with >Coins >ENSP Fix passed : rule 9.1 is destroyed again, and then recreated without potatoes, >points or Kudos >cash flow 2 passed : rule 9.1 doesn't contain potatoes, therefore according to rule 9.2 >the potato in question can't be created. >The NEWTEXT trick is a good idea, but it's because ENSP & ENSP fix didn't use it that potatoes >are non-things... Ick. Ick. Ick ick ick. I submit the following, and vote FOR it while encouarging everyone to rush it through. Rule 15.0 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 15.0 reading "Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is." This will be in the group POTATOES. Now we are positive as to what rule 15.0 is. Rule 16.0 will be created, reading "When a proposal is passed, this rule is destroyed and 1,000,000 Coins are created in the posession of the Bank. Rule 9.1 will be destroyed and replaced with a new rule 9.1 reading "Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things.", unless any proposal has altered it since this proposal was created. If one has, then the provision of that proposal that alters rule 9.1 occurs again immediately following the passage of this proposal. The comment for the group THINGS is amended by adding the text "Players proposing changes to rule 9.1 should use clever string manipulation techniques so as not to interfere with each others' proposals." This proposal shall be destroyed. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 13:37:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:37:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 49769 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 19:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 19:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 19:08:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Apr 2003 19:08:23 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:08:22 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Market suggestions Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 729 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl It is very definitely the case that the Market rules need work. I'd suggest that the way to make the work happen how you want it is to do it yourself - that is, if you suggest the actual text of the rule changes, they will be implemented. As for issue 1, however, I actually think it would be really cool to have a Cursed Sushi in Thermo. We'd probably recognize it as a type of hot potato. I also think watching B Nomic deal with a Potato of Contrarianism in its midst would be more fun than damaging. But, as I say, I care more about having any rule changes actually be suggested than about them being what I want - it isn't "Craig's Market" but the Nomic Market, and what exactly it is is up to the Nomic community. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 13:37:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:37:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 98781 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:37:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:37:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:37:53 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6BA5F14E5BE; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:37:52 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Some votes! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:37:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200304291549.00726.bdonlan@b...> <3EAEDB1A.934440E9@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EAEDB1A.934440E9@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291637.51596.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 04:05 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Monday 28 April 2003 10:20 pm, Craig wrote: > > > >> > I am FOR the following proposals: > > > >> > > > > >> > 16 -- ENSP > > > >> > 17 -- Minor ENSP Fix > > > >> > 18 -- Free Trade > > > >> > > > > >> > I am AGAINST the cancelation of Futurama, however. > > > >> > > > > >> > Josh > > > >> > > > >> I've discovered a BIG problem... > > > >> > > > >> There is currently a rule 15.0 created by hot potatoes, and not wi= th > > > > > > Josh's vote, ENSP is also > > > > > > >> trying to create a rule 15.0. I'm unsure of how to proceed. > > > > > > > >that should be "now" not "not" > > > > > > Everyone vote quick to rush this through before there is a problem: > > > > > > The rule 15.0 created by the proposal 'eco nomic stimulus package' wi= ll > > > be given the number 15.01 so as not to conflict with the rule 15.00 > > > created by 'hot potatoes'. > > > > > > FOR. > > > > FOR. > > Okay, apparently you missed it, but this won't have any impact. The rule > in question already failed to be created... Yeah. I read my nomic messages sequentially. - --=20 bd "Can you program?" "Well, I'm literate, if that's what you mean!" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ruKfx533NjVSos4RAqX8AKCrYvphqG/uK8fiLK83QzeCb73sbwCgkoZ9 Zl0+egoqBMoM773H1h6fUXc=3D =3DsvAg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 13:44:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 20:44:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 47367 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 19:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 19:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 19:47:17 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 169E414E5B6; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:47:16 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato of Speedy Passage Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:47:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291547.16347.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 28 April 2003 09:39 pm, Craig wrote: > Not actually a potato. Just a fun name. > > Rule 5.8 shall be repealed, and in its place an identical rule shall be > created with the number 5.9. > A new rule 5.8 shall be created, reading "Whenever enough players have > voted on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of any > registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration proposal= s > are Pending, the proposal expires." > > I'm all for it. But then again, it's my idea. FOR it's a jolly good prop-osal, which nobody can deny[1]... [1] This statement may not be entierly factual in all contexts. Some=20 restrictions apply. See dealer with cluebat. - --=20 bd That should probably be written: no !@#$%^&*:@!semicolon -- Larry Wall in <199710161841.LAA13208@w...> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rtbEx533NjVSos4RAgqyAJ9uip9ubTAoq7+tXmLDKoVc5QTPdwCeK5/T dWYdmkZZWfDTcuF0/JhPHHo=3D =3DYo6R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 14:13:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:13:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 12232 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:13:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 13668 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:13:33 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:13:33 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TLDWG04959 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:13:32 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEEB8E.34BE3674@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:15:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > > > > Ick. Ick. Ick ick ick. I submit the following, and vote FOR it while > > encouarging everyone to rush it through. > > > > > > Rule 15.0 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 15.0 reading "Each Hot > > Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of > > when its effect occurs and what that effect is." This will be in the group > > POTATOES. Now we are positive as to what rule 15.0 is. > > Rule 16.0 will be created, reading "When a proposal is passed, this rule is > > destroyed and 1,000,000 Coins are created in the posession of the Bank. > > Rule 9.1 will be destroyed and replaced with a new rule 9.1 reading > > "Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all > > Things.", unless any proposal has altered it since this proposal was > > created. If one has, then the provision of that proposal that alters rule > > 9.1 occurs again immediately following the passage of this proposal. The > > comment for the group THINGS is amended by adding the text "Players > > proposing changes to rule 9.1 should use clever string manipulation > > techniques so as not to interfere with each others' proposals." > > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > Heh. I vote FOR this proposal. > > Craig, the good news is that you'll be getting an extra coin out of the deal...l Unfortunately, I'm having some sort of mail problem. So this will probably end up duplicating. From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 14:23:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:23:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 29180 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:23:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 29675 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TLNv227190 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:23:57 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EAEEDFE.9A1ACD7E@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:26:22 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato of Speedy Passage References: <200304291547.16347.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Monday 28 April 2003 09:39 pm, Craig wrote: > > Not actually a potato. Just a fun name. > > > > Rule 5.8 shall be repealed, and in its place an identical rule shall be > > created with the number 5.9. > > A new rule 5.8 shall be created, reading "Whenever enough players have > > voted on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of any > > registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration proposals > > are Pending, the proposal expires." > > > > I'm all for it. But then again, it's my idea. > > FOR it's a jolly good prop-osal, which nobody can deny[1]... > except that, of course, this proposal is in violation of the TSLs... ;) > > > > [1] This statement may not be entierly factual in all contexts. Some > restrictions apply. See dealer with cluebat. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 14:24:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:24:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 77168 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:37:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:37:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:37:25 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AED3D14E5BD; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:37:24 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:37:23 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EAEDAB3.3A357DDE@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EAEDAB3.3A357DDE@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291637.23855.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 04:04 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig Daniel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Cash > > > > Flow. Its > > > > > > > > description shall be "Whenever the Potato of Cash Flow has > > > > gone two full > > > > > > > > weeks without causing any Things to be redistributed, the > > > > Potato of Cash > > > > > > > > Flow and each Coin belonging to its posessor will be given to > > > > a random > > > > > > > > player." The Potato of Cash Flow shall begin in the posession > > > > of a random > > > > > > > > player. This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I ABSTAIN. > > > > > > > > > > And with that vote this proposal is passed. > > > > > > > > Who's got the Potato, o great and randomizing Speaker Duck? > > > > > > Workin' on it. > > > > > > Got a whole lotta things to get straightened out, but first I'd > > > > like to point your attention to > > > > > rules 9.1, and 9.2. > > > > > > It appears to me that the Potato of Cash Flow can't be created... > > > > as hot potatoes aren't Things, > > > > > as they aren't listed in the list of Things. > > > > Um, IIRC, the (recently passed) proposal 'hot potatoes' made hot > > potatoes Things. > > You're correct, but then the passage of "eco nomic stimulus package" then > wiped out "hot potatoes" changes to rule 9.1 . It's basically a timeing > issue, if hot potatoes hadn't been voted through so quickly, it would hav= e > arrived after ENSP, and thus rule 9.1 would have allowed for the creation > of potatoes, but of course rule 15.0 would have been alking about The Ban= k, > and so the hot potatoes description would have been undefined, and not ha= d > any power... Kind of a "damned of you do, damned if you don't" > situation... Ths is why single-sentence rules are a serious restriction (IMO). With=20 multi-sentence rules we could use a list, and simply add to it. - --=20 bd Murder is always a mistake -- one should never do anything one cannot talk about after dinner. -- Oscar Wilde, "The Picture of Dorian Gray" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ruKDx533NjVSos4RAr+oAKCOXltmWSXVMnmXVV7zS6h7MyUjOQCfWfv+ Fwf2axHJ6eVS6wIcbljXWWU=3D =3DzDev -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 14:26:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:26:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 21352 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:26:58 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6544D14E5CB; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:26:57 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Potato of Speedy Passage Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:26:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200304291547.16347.bdonlan@b...> <3EAEEDFE.9A1ACD7E@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EAEEDFE.9A1ACD7E@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291726.56579.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 05:26 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Monday 28 April 2003 09:39 pm, Craig wrote: > > > Not actually a potato. Just a fun name. > > > > > > Rule 5.8 shall be repealed, and in its place an identical rule shall = be > > > created with the number 5.9. > > > A new rule 5.8 shall be created, reading "Whenever enough players hav= e > > > voted on a proposal that its outcome is guaranteed in the absence of > > > any registrations occurring while it is Pending, and no registration > > > proposals are Pending, the proposal expires." > > > > > > I'm all for it. But then again, it's my idea. > > > > FOR it's a jolly good prop-osal, which nobody can deny[1]... > > except that, of course, this proposal is in violation of the TSLs... ;) See disclaimer ;) > > [1] This statement may not be entierly factual in all contexts. Some > > restrictions apply. See dealer with cluebat. - --=20 bd Kinkler's First Law: Responsibility always exceeds authority. Kinkler's Second Law: All the easy problems have been solved. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ru4gx533NjVSos4RAu71AJsFXT6veX4J+JPtbt3fxjbCMsl5bQCglWFO oeVqWB3BNbRdpmL0wu5SgO0=3D =3DmFGk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 14:28:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:28:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 38108 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:27:56 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE5F1016025E; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:27:59 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:28:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304291637.23855.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Ths is why single-sentence rules are a serious restriction (IMO). With >multi-sentence rules we could use a list, and simply add to it. If you want that, let's try the following - which is NOT a proposal: Create a rule 9.15 reading: "Flying Monkeys are also Things." From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 14:50:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:50:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 86403 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:44:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:44:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:44:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 2264 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:44:08 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:44:08 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TLi7G04156 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:44:07 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEF2B9.F9CDA794@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:46:33 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Ths is why single-sentence rules are a serious restriction (IMO). With > >multi-sentence rules we could use a list, and simply add to it. > > If you want that, let's try the following - which is NOT a proposal: > > Create a rule 9.15 reading: > "Flying Monkeys are also Things." > The only problem I see with it is some ambiguity with regard to the language of rule 9.2 where it specifies a "list". 9.1 is the only rule that seems to satisfy being a "list". From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 14:55:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:55:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 34457 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:51:53 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 49A6F14E5C9; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:51:51 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:51:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291651.51465.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 04:35 pm, Craig wrote: > >> This message occured much earlier. You will notice it contains the ful= l > > text > > >> of 'hot potatoes', including the clever use of NEWTEXT to make hot > > potatoes > > >> a thing without worrying about what else is or isn't a Thing. It also > >> contains the hon. Speaker Dr Ducker's statement that the proposal had > >> passed. > > > >Just too be clear, I am not saying that rule 9.1 never contained the tex= t > > "hot potato", just > > >that at the time of the passage of 'cash flow take 2' it did not contain > > such text. > > >The sequence goes like this: > > > >hot potatoes passed : rule 9.1 contains potatoes (this is when the > > NEWTEXT trick was used) > > >ENSP passed : rule 9.1 is destroyed, and then recreated > > without potatoes, but with > > >Coins > >ENSP Fix passed : rule 9.1 is destroyed again, and then recreat= ed > > without potatoes, > > >points or Kudos > >cash flow 2 passed : rule 9.1 doesn't contain potatoes, therefore > > according to rule 9.2 > > >the potato in question can't be created. > > > >The NEWTEXT trick is a good idea, but it's because ENSP & ENSP fix didn'= t > > use it that potatoes > > >are non-things... > > Ick. Ick. Ick ick ick. I submit the following, and vote FOR it while > encouarging everyone to rush it through. > > > Rule 15.0 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 15.0 reading "Each Hot > Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description > of when its effect occurs and what that effect is." This will be in the > group POTATOES. Now we are positive as to what rule 15.0 is. > Rule 16.0 will be created, reading "When a proposal is passed, this rule = is > destroyed and 1,000,000 Coins are created in the posession of the Bank. > Rule 9.1 will be destroyed and replaced with a new rule 9.1 reading > "Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all > Things.", unless any proposal has altered it since this proposal was > created. If one has, then the provision of that proposal that alters rule > 9.1 occurs again immediately following the passage of this proposal. The > comment for the group THINGS is amended by adding the text "Players > proposing changes to rule 9.1 should use clever string manipulation > techniques so as not to interfere with each others' proposals." > This proposal shall be destroyed. > fOr. - --=20 bd There are more things in heaven and earth than any place else. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ruXnx533NjVSos4RAgaKAKCb/Qb9F11Ojtm7k6nQEjP+d+EO/ACgv/Bp 51r9hQ/ciwb3UZBpClxPH+s=3D =3D7TXw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 14:58:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 21:58:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 4392 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:51:10 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D9AA514E5CE; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:51:09 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:51:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291751.09123.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 05:28 pm, Craig wrote: > >Ths is why single-sentence rules are a serious restriction (IMO). With > >multi-sentence rules we could use a list, and simply add to it. > > If you want that, let's try the following - which is NOT a proposal: > > Create a rule 9.15 reading: > "Flying Monkeys are also Things." How about a new section, of which all its rules (except n.0) state the name= of=20 a class of Thing? - --=20 bd AUTHOR FvwmAuto just appeared one day, nobody knows how. -- FvwmAuto(1x) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rvPMx533NjVSos4RAs0FAKC92jZdARCTYUhZ/OLoNjOOm4g+qwCgn65e 0tfKvvqYTrc5eRiW2wD+1BM=3D =3DciMG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 15:25:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 22:25:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 14009 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 21:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 21:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 21:20:47 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACB21397017A; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:20:50 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:21:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAEEB8E.34BE3674@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > Ick. Ick. Ick ick ick. I submit the following, and vote FOR it while >> > encouarging everyone to rush it through. >> > >> > >> > Rule 15.0 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 15.0 reading "Each Hot >> > Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of >> > when its effect occurs and what that effect is." This will be in the group >> > POTATOES. Now we are positive as to what rule 15.0 is. >> > Rule 16.0 will be created, reading "When a proposal is passed, this rule is >> > destroyed and 1,000,000 Coins are created in the posession of the Bank. >> > Rule 9.1 will be destroyed and replaced with a new rule 9.1 reading >> > "Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all >> > Things.", unless any proposal has altered it since this proposal was >> > created. If one has, then the provision of that proposal that alters rule >> > 9.1 occurs again immediately following the passage of this proposal. The >> > comment for the group THINGS is amended by adding the text "Players >> > proposing changes to rule 9.1 should use clever string manipulation >> > techniques so as not to interfere with each others' proposals." >> > This proposal shall be destroyed. >> > >> >> Heh. I vote FOR this proposal. >> >> Craig, the good news is that you'll be getting an extra coin out of the deal...l >Unfortunately, I'm having some sort of mail problem. So this will probably end up >duplicating. Um, this is the only copy I've got. From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 15:29:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 22:29:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 94983 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:38:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 20:38:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:38:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 6987 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 20:38:24 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 20:38:24 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TKcOr10805 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:38:24 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEE351.93381A64@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:40:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > Ick. Ick. Ick ick ick. I submit the following, and vote FOR it while > encouarging everyone to rush it through. > > > Rule 15.0 is repealed and replaced with a new rule 15.0 reading "Each Hot > Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of > when its effect occurs and what that effect is." This will be in the group > POTATOES. Now we are positive as to what rule 15.0 is. > Rule 16.0 will be created, reading "When a proposal is passed, this rule is > destroyed and 1,000,000 Coins are created in the posession of the Bank. > Rule 9.1 will be destroyed and replaced with a new rule 9.1 reading > "Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all > Things.", unless any proposal has altered it since this proposal was > created. If one has, then the provision of that proposal that alters rule > 9.1 occurs again immediately following the passage of this proposal. The > comment for the group THINGS is amended by adding the text "Players > proposing changes to rule 9.1 should use clever string manipulation > techniques so as not to interfere with each others' proposals." > This proposal shall be destroyed. > Heh. I vote FOR this proposal. Craig, the good news is that you'll be getting an extra coin out of the deal...l From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 15:38:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 22:38:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 90031 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 22:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 22:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 22:38:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 32331 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 22:38:50 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 22:38:50 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TMcjw28220 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:38:45 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAEFF89.58B3C452@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:41:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > > A rule 0.5 will be created, reading "There are no restrictions on players > entering the Nomic Market." > ThermodyNomic will officially ask to be recognized as a participant by the > Nomic Market. > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > Given the recent changes to the Market ruleset, I vote FOR this proposal. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 15:41:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 22:41:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 72782 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 22:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 22:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 22:41:53 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 120F514E5D4; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:41:52 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Nomic Market will begin whenever Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:41:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EAEFF89.58B3C452@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EAEFF89.58B3C452@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304291841.52311.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 06:41 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > > > A rule 0.5 will be created, reading "There are no restrictions on playe= rs > > entering the Nomic Market." > > ThermodyNomic will officially ask to be recognized as a participant by > > the Nomic Market. > > This proposal shall be destroyed. > > > > Given the recent changes to the Market ruleset, I vote FOR this proposal. FOR - --=20 bd Biology grows on you. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rv+wx533NjVSos4RAg9tAJ93Tm27AAL1gWvK01OhVIg4oFqLXQCfTNzn 1h28a5KNoMUX1MoYufAz1kU=3D =3DlTjw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 16:02:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 29 Apr 2003 23:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 57694 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 22:14:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 22:14:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 22:14:29 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A949171C0254; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:14:33 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Potato Proto Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:14:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304291751.09123.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >How about a new section, of which all its rules (except n.0) state the name of >a class of Thing? I'd rather not be responsible for the drafting of such a proposal, but it's got my support. From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 17:25:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:25:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 82584 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 22:30:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2003 22:30:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 22:30:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 12104 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2003 22:30:48 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 22:30:48 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3TMUmO11929 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:30:48 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EAEFDAB.C5438E2E@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:33:15 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > Um, this is the only copy I've got. > Okay, but it's not the only copy I sent... Somewhere out there is the original. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 17:41:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:41:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 64253 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:41:19 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABB35901FE; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:41:23 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:41:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAEFDAB.C5438E2E@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Um, this is the only copy I've got. >Okay, but it's not the only copy I sent... Somewhere out there is the original. And, just when you least expect it, it will jump out of the closet and eat a Potato. From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 17:45:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:45:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 32941 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:45:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:45:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:45:50 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 509F314E2A1; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:45:49 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:45:48 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304292045.48590.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 08:41 pm, Craig wrote: > >> Um, this is the only copy I've got. > > > >Okay, but it's not the only copy I sent... Somewhere out there is the > > original. > > And, just when you least expect it, it will jump out of the closet and ea= t > a Potato. Sort of related: I propose: {{ A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Displacement. Its=20 description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset,=20 another randomly selected potato will be given to the holder of this potato= ,=20 and this potato will be given to the prior holder." Destroy this proposal. }} I vote FOR the above. - --=20 bd My uncle was the town drunk -- and we lived in Chicago. -- George Gobel -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rxy8x533NjVSos4RAjDZAKCaYJsvVJzhta+w6EezujX4D4X32wCg1mag WNdsWSX9WxyuAn5uc9tTWXs=3D =3Domo0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 17:49:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:49:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 11806 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:49:46 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9CEC914E2A2; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:49:45 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Bug, anyone? Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:49:44 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304292049.44804.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I vote AGAINST "further cleaning" (this cancels my original FOR vote - both= =20 votes are counted) I vote AGAINST "further cleaning", again (Now I'm AGAINST twice, FOR once) I propose: {{ Create a rule: 5.9. If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous v= ote=20 is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. Destroy this proposal. }} I vote FOR the aforementioned. - --=20 bd Verba volant, scripta manent! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rx2ox533NjVSos4RArPmAKC76Ybd3iZUFhNMJC+ImUJryu4nbQCgvS0x yyHU3y/7eEkW/eeSiu1NCPw=3D =3DGzPc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 17:51:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:51:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 83738 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:51:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:51:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:51:21 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE0D7601FE; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:51:25 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:51:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304292045.48590.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Displacement. Its >description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, >another randomly selected potato will be given to the holder of this potato, >and this potato will be given to the prior holder." >Destroy this proposal. 1. The timing is too predictable. 2. Doc D and I could change that to be every week or month, or never. But what the hell, I'm FOR it. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 17:52:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:52:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 64201 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:52:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:52:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:52:15 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE43900076; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:52:19 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Bug, anyone? Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:52:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304292049.44804.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >5.9. If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote >is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. >Destroy this proposal. >I vote FOR the aforementioned. I'm FOR it about ten times over. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 17:52:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:52:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 78996 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:52:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:52:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:52:40 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE5D950076; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:52:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Bug, anyone? Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:52:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200304292049.44804.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning" (this cancels my original FOR vote - both >votes are counted) >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning", again (Now I'm AGAINST twice, FOR once) Why don't you like "further cleaning", anyway? From bdonlan@b... Tue Apr 29 17:54:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 00:54:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 38834 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 00:54:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 00:54:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:54:35 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B1CD814E2A6; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:54:34 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Bug, anyone? Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:54:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304292054.33895.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 April 2003 08:52 pm, Craig wrote: > >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning" (this cancels my original FOR vote - > > both votes are counted) > >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning", again (Now I'm AGAINST twice, FOR onc= e) > > Why don't you like "further cleaning", anyway? I have plans for those Things. Specifically, the list of possible Things id= ea.=20 I can't get it done today, so I'm going AGAINST it in the futile hope that= =20 it'll stop it passing ;) - --=20 bd QOTD: "I don't think they could put him in a mental hospital. On the other hand, if he were already in, I don't think they'd let him out." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+rx7Jx533NjVSos4RArSUAKCNDZO25SERBkg9HIYx33ar/ua7BwCeKnXv 58bwn+6MxlI7LJHlU/NFLRY=3D =3DaHv1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Tue Apr 29 18:00:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 01:00:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 78814 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 01:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 01:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 01:00:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 28520 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 01:00:53 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 01:00:53 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3U10rt29199 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:00:53 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EAF20DB.89F01E81@u...> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:03:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Bug, anyone? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning" (this cancels my original FOR vote - both > >votes are counted) > >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning", again (Now I'm AGAINST twice, FOR once) > > Why don't you like "further cleaning", anyway? > Craig, as I stated in another post, why are you trying to, without purpose, get rid of our things? The only benefit proposals like "further cleaning" have is to create one, and only one, Coin. From ragnarok@p... Tue Apr 29 18:13:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 01:13:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 17066 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 01:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 01:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 01:13:36 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3442401EC; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:13:40 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Bug, anyone? Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:13:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EAF20DB.89F01E81@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning" (this cancels my original FOR vote - both >> >votes are counted) >> >I vote AGAINST "further cleaning", again (Now I'm AGAINST twice, FOR once) >> >> Why don't you like "further cleaning", anyway? >Craig, as I stated in another post, why are you trying to, without purpose, get rid of our >things? The only benefit proposals like "further cleaning" have is to create one, and only one, >Coin. I answered that in a private message. And no, I wasn't kidding. If you have any further questions, write me privately; my address is ragnarok at pobox dot com. From cortex@n... Wed Apr 30 07:52:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 14:52:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 48491 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 14:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 14:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 14:45:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 24527 invoked by uid 1006); 30 Apr 2003 14:45:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:45:11 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: [Thermo] Potato Proto] Message-ID: <20030430104511.A24479@a...> References: <200304292045.48590.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 08:51:39PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 08:51:39PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >A hot potato shall be created, called the Potato of Displacement. Its > >description shall be "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, > >another randomly selected potato will be given to the holder of this > potato, > >and this potato will be given to the prior holder." > >Destroy this proposal. > > But what the hell, I'm FOR it. Yeah, so'm I. We can always get rid of it later, unless of course it's too late and we're all doomed, DOOMED, etc. Which could be fun too. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 11:08:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 18:08:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 96467 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 18:08:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 18:08:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 18:08:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 10223 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 18:08:41 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 18:08:41 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3UI8ed00822 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:08:40 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB011D2.7043E3ED@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:11:30 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Voting on outstanding proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 I am casting my votes on the following outstanding proposals: "free trade" I have already voted. "further cleaning" I am voting AGAINST "agreement" I am voting ABSTAIN "contrarianism" I am voting ABSTAIN "number conflict go bye-bye now" is a useless proposal upon which I am voting ABSTAIN bd's untitled proposal regarding Potato of Displacement I am voting ABSTAIN bd's untitled Duplicate Vote fixing proposal i am voting FOR From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 11:48:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 18:48:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 3454 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 18:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 18:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 18:48:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 14153 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 18:48:57 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 18:48:57 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3UImvi00706 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:48:57 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:51:47 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Create a rule 11.7 within the JUDGEMENT group which reads: "A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned." Create a rule 12.6 within the APPEALS group which reads: "An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned." Destroy Rule (4 pi). Create a rule 12.56 within the APPEALS group which reads: "The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Append the text "Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties." to the Comment of the JUDGEMENT group. Append the text "Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties." to the Comment of the APPEALS group. Destroy two random Coins. I am FOR this proposal. Note that the destruction of (4 pi) and creation of 12.56 is simply so I can be precise in a database I've been creating. I'm highly amused by the (X pi) or (e) concepts presented, I just can't fill out the fields that way... From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 13:35:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 20:35:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 5890 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 18:18:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 18:18:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 18:18:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 7963 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 18:18:47 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 18:18:47 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3UIIk013064 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:18:46 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB01430.74BA91B3@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:21:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Voting on outstanding proposals References: <3EB011D2.7043E3ED@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > I am casting my votes on the following outstanding proposals: > > "free trade" I have already voted. > "further cleaning" I am voting AGAINST > "agreement" I am voting ABSTAIN > "contrarianism" I am voting ABSTAIN > "number conflict go bye-bye now" is a useless proposal upon which I am voting > ABSTAIN > bd's untitled proposal regarding Potato of Displacement I am voting ABSTAIN > bd's untitled Duplicate Vote fixing proposal i am voting FOR > I'd also like to point out that upon none of these proposals has unlin_e cast a vote, and that of these, Josh has also not voted on "number conflict go bye-bye now" or the Duplicate Vote fix. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Wed Apr 30 13:46:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27492 invoked by uid 7800); 30 Apr 2003 20:46:19 -0000 Date: 30 Apr 2003 20:46:19 -0000 Message-ID: <1051735579.307879031.56879.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T h e r m o d y N o m i c R u l e s e t The official rules of the game of Thermo. THERMODYNOMIC 0.0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. THE RULESET 4.0 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. PROPOSALS 5.0 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6.0 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. DEREGISTRATION 7.0 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. REGISTRATION 8.0 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. THINGS 9.0 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, and The Bank are things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. OFFICES 10.0 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. JUDGEMENT 11.0 Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. APPEALS 12.0 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. (4 pi) The decision of the majority of Appelate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. PAST JUDGEMENTS 13.0 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. Comment: POTATOES 15.0 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 13:58:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 20:57:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 69675 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 20:57:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 20:57:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 20:57:58 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8E342C01D6; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:58:11 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:57:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Destroy two random Coins. > >I am FOR this proposal. AGAINST. I said this ten minutes ago, but it hasn't gotten through. Forgive me if this becomes a duplicate. If it is a duplicate, I also cast a FOR vote so that I am effectively not voting extra. I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. Once the Bank rule is in place, it means that the Bank is just a storage space for extra Things. Although there will be times when we will want to be able to take other people's Coins, I encourage everyone to remember the spirit of the Coin rule and vote down any proposal that seeks to destroy Coins not belonging to is proposer or a supporter of the idea who is OK giving up eir Coins for the cause. Vote against this, and establish a tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own proposals. In fact, even though it may come in handy for just and good purposes later, let's get rid of this right now: Destroy rule 5.2 and create a new rule 5.2 in its place reading: A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired, with the exception that a proposal which would destroy any Coins not belonging to its proposer does not become pending until it has the support of the player whose Coins would be destroyed. Create a rule in the section PROPOSALS whose number fits the criteria listed below, with the text: If a proposal expires that would result in the destruction of any Coins belonging to a player who has not voted FOR it, the proposal fails automatically. The criteria are: The number must be less than A. The number must be higher than that of any rule in the group whose header is foo. Of the numbers that fit the first two criteria, there must be no eligible numbers that require more digits to write in base ten than the number that is chosen. Of the numbers that fit the first three criteria, the lowest one will be used. For the rule created above, A is six and foo is PROPOSALS Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig, munificent creator of this proposal. Create a rule in the section THINGS with the same criteria but A=6 and foo=THINGS. It shall read: No Coin may be destroyed by a proposal that does not have an affirmative vote from the owner of the Coin. Destroy this proposal. FOR, of course. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 14:54:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 21:54:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 80792 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 21:51:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 21:51:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 21:51:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 27171 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 21:51:15 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 21:51:15 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3ULpFB31416 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:51:15 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EB04600.5B696E53@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:54:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Destroy two random Coins. > > > > >I am FOR this proposal. > > AGAINST. Hmm, interesting that he who happens to have the most number of coins, is most interested in preserving them... > > I said this ten minutes ago, but it hasn't gotten through. Glad to see it's not just my systems. This is also (mostly) a duplicate posting. > Forgive me if > this becomes a duplicate. If it is a duplicate, I also cast a FOR vote so > that I am effectively not voting extra. As a shortcut, I'll simply ignore the second AGAINST if/when it shows up. > > > I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them > at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. Which of course, means you. Personally I was hoping the bank stuff would be in place first, then you concerns are negligible. > > Once the Bank rule is in place, it means that the Bank is just a storage > space for extra Things. Except, that isn't accurate. Under the current rules and even including the currently pending bank related proposals (barring the one below), I could specify that 1,000 coins possessed by the bank were destroyed, to be replaced by an army of 1000 potato wielding flying monkeys... > Although there will be times when we will want to be > able to take other people's Coins, I encourage everyone to remember the > spirit of the Coin rule and vote down any proposal that seeks to destroy > Coins not belonging to is proposer or a supporter of the idea who is OK > giving up eir Coins for the cause. Remember again e who is worrying the most about Coins, is e who has the most Coins... > Vote against this, and establish a tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own > proposals. A tradition currently completely unfounded in Thermo Law... > In fact, even though it may come in handy for just and good purposes later, > let's get rid of this right now: > > > Destroy rule 5.2 and create a new rule 5.2 in its place reading: > A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been > submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired, with the > exception that a proposal which would destroy any Coins not belonging to its > proposer does not become pending until it has the support of the player > whose Coins would be destroyed. > Of course a better version would be less specific, replace both usages of Coins with Things, and you might be onto something... > > Create a rule in the section PROPOSALS whose number fits the criteria listed > below, with the text: > If a proposal expires that would result in the destruction of any Coins > belonging to a player who has not voted FOR it, the proposal fails > automatically. > Again replace Coins with Things, and this wuld be reasonable. > > The criteria are: > The number must be less than A. > The number must be higher than that of any rule in the group whose header is > foo. > Of the numbers that fit the first two criteria, there must be no eligible > numbers that require more digits to write in base ten than the number that > is chosen. > Of the numbers that fit the first three criteria, the lowest one will be > used. > > For the rule created above, A is six and foo is PROPOSALS > For reference: this would be 5.9 or 5.91 > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig, munificent creator of this proposal. > Everyone should note that while a great sacrifice this seems, it is actually a ruse, for Craig will be granted a Coin according to rule 2.1, if this proposl passes > > Create a rule in the section THINGS with the same criteria but A=6 and > foo=THINGS. Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. > It shall read: > No Coin may be destroyed by a proposal that does not have an affirmative > vote from the owner of the Coin. > > Destroy this proposal. Ah, so was that last rule creation merely a slip, or a deliberate deception to make this destruction not so obviously a simple ploy for you to gain a Coin from the passage of this proposal? > > > FOR, of course. > I am AGAINST, of course. (Ignore duplications) From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 14:57:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 21:57:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 3961 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 20:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 20:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 20:18:00 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF852AE01D8; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:18:13 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:18:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Destroy two random Coins. > >I am FOR this proposal. As it stands, I vote AGAINST it. Use your own coins. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 15:01:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:01:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 43704 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:01:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:01:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:01:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 26839 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:01:40 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:01:40 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3UM1eh09948 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:01:40 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB04872.8CD4C791@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:04:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Destroy two random Coins. > > > > >I am FOR this proposal. > > As it stands, I vote AGAINST it. Use your own coins. > As stated in myother post I am ignoring this duplicate AGAINST, rather than posting it with it's matching FOR. From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 30 15:27:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:27:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 29473 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:18:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:18:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:18:29 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3UMIQGG010623 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:18:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030430164458.027d2990@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:17:03 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges In-Reply-To: References: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 03:57 PM 4/30/03, Crait wrote: > >Destroy two random Coins. > > > > >I am FOR this proposal. > >AGAINST. >I said this ten minutes ago, but it hasn't gotten through. Forgive me if >this becomes a duplicate. If it is a duplicate, I also cast a FOR vote so >that I am effectively not voting extra. > >I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them >at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. Sounds like a good thing to me... >Once the Bank rule is in place, it means that the Bank is just a storage >space for extra Things. Although there will be times when we will want to be >able to take other people's Coins, I encourage everyone to remember the >spirit of the Coin rule and vote down any proposal that seeks to destroy >Coins not belonging to is proposer or a supporter of the idea who is OK >giving up eir Coins for the cause. I didn't think the spirit of the coin rule was so much to establish a mirror image of the real-world capitalist economy complete with the notion of absolute ownership, as just to establish the bare bones of an economy, which can then develop in any direction the players choose. With that in mind, I don't think the idea of destroying coins at random necessarily violates the spirit of the Coin rule. > Vote against this, and establish a >tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own proposals. In >fact, even though it may come in handy for just and good purposes later, >let's get rid of this right now: > > >Destroy rule 5.2 and create a new rule 5.2 in its place reading: >A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been >submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired, with the >exception that a proposal which would destroy any Coins not belonging to its >proposer does not become pending until it has the support of the player >whose Coins would be destroyed. > >Create a rule in the section PROPOSALS whose number fits the criteria listed >below, with the text: >If a proposal expires that would result in the destruction of any Coins >belonging to a player who has not voted FOR it, the proposal fails >automatically. > >The criteria are: >The number must be less than A. >The number must be higher than that of any rule in the group whose header is >foo. >Of the numbers that fit the first two criteria, there must be no eligible >numbers that require more digits to write in base ten than the number that >is chosen. Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, which requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and 5.9 (assuming the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky to find. >Of the numbers that fit the first three criteria, the lowest one will be >used. > >For the rule created above, A is six and foo is PROPOSALS > >Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig, munificent creator of this proposal. > >Create a rule in the section THINGS with the same criteria but A=6 and >foo=THINGS. It shall read: >No Coin may be destroyed by a proposal that does not have an affirmative >vote from the owner of the Coin. > >Destroy this proposal. > >FOR, of course. If I were a player, I would be strongly opposed to this proposal. If there isn't any real need to place limitations on the power of the proposal system, then they shouldn't be placed, imo. After all, the proposal does need to be passed before the coins are destroyed, and if the proposal is passed then it must have received a majority vote. If you think that a particular instance of a proposal destroying somebody's coins is unjust or whatever, then you should take political action to stop that proposal. The system need not be banned entirely. Ian From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 15:29:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:29:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 82496 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:29:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE4E1C930260; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:29:34 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:29:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030430164458.027d2990@m...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, which >requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and 5.9 (assuming >the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky to find. No. The square root of 34 is irrational, and actually writing it out in base ten takes an ifinity of digits. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 15:33:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:33:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 92616 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:33:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:33:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:33:25 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF4218CB024E; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:33:38 -0400 To: Subject: FW: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:33:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl This hasn't shown up yet. I'm forwarding it back to the list, in case the early one never does. -----Original Message----- From: Craig [mailto:ragnarok@p...] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:24 PM To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges >> >Destroy two random Coins. >> > >> >> >I am FOR this proposal. >> >> AGAINST. >Hmm, interesting that he who happens to have the most number of coins, is most interested in >preserving them... Everyone should share my interest, as everyone has the same potential to aquire as many Coins. Besides, Nomic is my only chance to play the reactionary rightist Republican role (and allitterate atypically). >> I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them >> at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. >Which of course, means you. Personally I was hoping the bank stuff would be in place first, >then you concerns are negligible. But the Bank should be a storage space for Coins, not a place for cannon fodder. Anyway, there are timing questions about whether that would work if this is the first proposal after the Bank rule passes. >> Although there will be times when we will want to be >> able to take other people's Coins, I encourage everyone to remember the >> spirit of the Coin rule and vote down any proposal that seeks to destroy >> Coins not belonging to is proposer or a supporter of the idea who is OK >> giving up eir Coins for the cause. >Remember again e who is worrying the most about Coins, is e who has the most Coins... I have realized a potential for wealth that exists within us all. We all have reason to worry about our revenue, as we all might get some. >> Vote against this, and establish a tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own >> proposals. >A tradition currently completely unfounded in Thermo Law... A tradition founded in the intent of an economy, but yes, a tradition rather than a law. Ideally this would just be the way it was done, with no need to legislate it. >Of course a better version would be less specific, replace both usages of Coins with Things, and >you might be onto something... Only Coins are a currency. This is at heart an economic proposal. >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig, munificent creator of this proposal. >Everyone should note that while a great sacrifice this seems, it is actually a ruse, for Craig >will be granted a Coin according to rule 2.1, if this proposl passes Had I done it your way, I would have gained a Coin and then maybe not lost it. >> Create a rule in the section THINGS with the same criteria but A=6 and >> foo=THINGS. >Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. Typo. A=16. >> It shall read: >> No Coin may be destroyed by a proposal that does not have an affirmative >> vote from the owner of the Coin. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >Ah, so was that last rule creation merely a slip, or a deliberate deception to make this >destruction not so obviously a simple ploy for you to gain a Coin from the passage of this >proposal? 1. There is no profit to doing it either way. So no, it isn't anything sinister, this time. 2. This is an idea that applies to both Coins as a thing and proposals. It ought to go in both groups. Also, one of those rules is potential cannon fodder, so it is an act of generosity to whoever uses it. I'm not *all* greedy capitalist, even in game. >> >> FOR, of course. >I am AGAINST, of course. (Ignore duplications) Figures. Commie pig. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 15:34:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:34:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 66887 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:32:30 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF0C1A701D4; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:32:44 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:32:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl OK, looks like the one where I act got through and the earlier one didn't. The Nomic Market is beginning. While we wait, the rules are below (again). If the original shows up, disregard this message. SECTION I. General Rules. A. Definitions. The official mailing list of the Nomic Market is nomicmarket@n.... A trader is a person who is at the market, and may be refered to more specifically as a XXX trader, with XXX replaced by the name of eir home Nomic. A trader's home Nomic is the Nomic in which e is a player. If a person is a player in more than one Nomic, that player may be a trader from each one; that is, they may be two traders with two distinct home Nomics. An object is a thing which it is possible for a player to posess according to the rules of eir home Nomic. A member Nomic is a Nomic which has its own section in the rules of the Nomic Market. B. How to come to the Market. Any player of any member Nomic may declare emself to be at the Market, as long as the declaration occurs on both the mailing lists of the member Nomic and of the Market. That person then becomes a trader. C. What to do while at the Market. A trader may give any object to any other trader whose home Nomic and its subsection of these rules allow that trader to recieve it. A trader may offer a trade to another trader. That player may accept or reject the trade. If it is accepted, the goods agreed on are given from one trader to the other, as agreed. SECTION II. Amending the Rules. A. Sections i and ii. The rules in sections I and II of the ruleset may be amended whenever 2/3 of traders agree to the amendment. However, any two member Nomics may officially veto such a change. B. Other sections. The rules in the section concerning a given member Nomic may be amended whenever 2/3 of traders from that Nomic agree to the amendment. However, any two member Nomics may officially veto such a change. SECTION III. B Nomic Rules. (I, not being a B Nomic player, am not qualified to draft these.) SECTION IIII. ThermodyNomic Rules. A. Reciept. Any Thermo trader who recieves an object may declare eir intention to bring that object into the game of Thermo, in which case it is an object within Thermo in that player's posession until such time as e gives it away. Such a declaration must be sent to the Thermo mailing list. A Thermo trader may not bring B Nomic Shillings into the game of Thermo. B. Exchanges. Any Thermo trader may transform one Coin into 1,000 B Nomic Shillings, or may transform 1,000 B Nomic Shillings into one Coin. C. Official vetoes. Thermo will participate in a veto of a suggested change to the Nomic Market rules if a simple majority of its players want it to. From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 30 15:42:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:42:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 90111 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:42:45 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 732E614E2B8; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:42:44 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:42:43 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304301842.43689.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 30 April 2003 06:29 pm, Craig wrote: > >Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, whic= h > >requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and 5.9 > > (assuming > > >the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky to > > find. > > No. The square root of 34 is irrational, and actually writing it out in > base ten takes an ifinity of digits. This gives me an idea - how about representing Thermo rules as complex=20 numbers? We might find some clever way to manipulate them in the future ;) - --=20 bd Se procuras uma m=E3o disposta a te ajudar, a encontrar=E1s no final do teu bra=E7o. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sFFjx533NjVSos4RAnw1AKCB+vUd42qRWjMHO1v4yUTbqOZoFQCeLZ7m eujnuaPUdZAuLmP6Akb7Y64=3D =3DKZIU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 15:46:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:46:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 17815 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:27:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADF31A38028E; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:28:03 -0400 To: Cc: , Subject: Nomic Market beginning. Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:27:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl A day or so ago, I asked on the Nomic Market list if there were any objections to starting with the rules as reprinted below. There were none, unless you count rule change suggestions that are important but minor enough to be most Nomically considered as the first proposals. Thus, we are beginning with the following ruleset: SECTION I. General Rules. A. Definitions. The official mailing list of the Nomic Market is nomicmarket@n.... A trader is a person who is at the market, and may be refered to more specifically as a XXX trader, with XXX replaced by the name of eir home Nomic. A trader's home Nomic is the Nomic in which e is a player. If a person is a player in more than one Nomic, that player may be a trader from each one; that is, they may be two traders with two distinct home Nomics. An object is a thing which it is possible for a player to posess according to the rules of eir home Nomic. A member Nomic is a Nomic which has its own section in the rules of the Nomic Market. B. How to come to the Market. Any player of any member Nomic may declare emself to be at the Market, as long as the declaration occurs on both the mailing lists of the member Nomic and of the Market. That person then becomes a trader. C. What to do while at the Market. A trader may give any object to any other trader whose home Nomic and its subsection of these rules allow that trader to recieve it. A trader may offer a trade to another trader. That player may accept or reject the trade. If it is accepted, the goods agreed on are given from one trader to the other, as agreed. SECTION II. Amending the Rules. A. Sections i and ii. The rules in sections I and II of the ruleset may be amended whenever 2/3 of traders agree to the amendment. However, any two member Nomics may officially veto such a change. B. Other sections. The rules in the section concerning a given member Nomic may be amended whenever 2/3 of traders from that Nomic agree to the amendment. However, any two member Nomics may officially veto such a change. SECTION III. B Nomic Rules. (I, not being a B Nomic player, am not qualified to draft these.) SECTION IIII. ThermodyNomic Rules. A. Reciept. Any Thermo trader who recieves an object may declare eir intention to bring that object into the game of Thermo, in which case it is an object within Thermo in that player's posession until such time as e gives it away. Such a declaration must be sent to the Thermo mailing list. A Thermo trader may not bring B Nomic Shillings into the game of Thermo. B. Exchanges. Any Thermo trader may transform one Coin into 1,000 B Nomic Shillings, or may transform 1,000 B Nomic Shillings into one Coin. C. Official vetoes. Thermo will participate in a veto of a suggested change to the Nomic Market rules if a simple majority of its players want it to. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 15:50:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:50:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 26019 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:30:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:30:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:30:42 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEA041E01CC; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:30:56 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:30:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show up in Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins into 1000 BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 15:51:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 22:51:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 42309 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:51:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:51:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:51:14 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A370184C024C; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:51:28 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:51:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200304301842.43689.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >This gives me an idea - how about representing Thermo rules as complex >numbers? We might find some clever way to manipulate them in the future ;) Since we didn't want to mess with determining priority among them, someone suggested that the original rule 4.1 (which would have allowed that) be amended. Now it is "4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it." From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 16:02:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 23:02:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 15045 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 22:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 22:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 22:23:47 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD011A32028E; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:24:01 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:23:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB04600.5B696E53@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >Destroy two random Coins. >> > >> >> >I am FOR this proposal. >> >> AGAINST. >Hmm, interesting that he who happens to have the most number of coins, is most interested in >preserving them... Everyone should share my interest, as everyone has the same potential to aquire as many Coins. Besides, Nomic is my only chance to play the reactionary rightist Republican role (and allitterate atypically). >> I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them >> at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. >Which of course, means you. Personally I was hoping the bank stuff would be in place first, >then you concerns are negligible. But the Bank should be a storage space for Coins, not a place for cannon fodder. Anyway, there are timing questions about whether that would work if this is the first proposal after the Bank rule passes. >> Although there will be times when we will want to be >> able to take other people's Coins, I encourage everyone to remember the >> spirit of the Coin rule and vote down any proposal that seeks to destroy >> Coins not belonging to is proposer or a supporter of the idea who is OK >> giving up eir Coins for the cause. >Remember again e who is worrying the most about Coins, is e who has the most Coins... I have realized a potential for wealth that exists within us all. We all have reason to worry about our revenue, as we all might get some. >> Vote against this, and establish a tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own >> proposals. >A tradition currently completely unfounded in Thermo Law... A tradition founded in the intent of an economy, but yes, a tradition rather than a law. Ideally this would just be the way it was done, with no need to legislate it. >Of course a better version would be less specific, replace both usages of Coins with Things, and >you might be onto something... Only Coins are a currency. This is at heart an economic proposal. >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig, munificent creator of this proposal. >Everyone should note that while a great sacrifice this seems, it is actually a ruse, for Craig >will be granted a Coin according to rule 2.1, if this proposl passes Had I done it your way, I would have gained a Coin and then maybe not lost it. >> Create a rule in the section THINGS with the same criteria but A=6 and >> foo=THINGS. >Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. Typo. A=16. >> It shall read: >> No Coin may be destroyed by a proposal that does not have an affirmative >> vote from the owner of the Coin. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >Ah, so was that last rule creation merely a slip, or a deliberate deception to make this >destruction not so obviously a simple ploy for you to gain a Coin from the passage of this >proposal? 1. There is no profit to doing it either way. So no, it isn't anything sinister, this time. 2. This is an idea that applies to both Coins as a thing and proposals. It ought to go in both groups. Also, one of those rules is potential cannon fodder, so it is an act of generosity to whoever uses it. I'm not *all* greedy capitalist, even in game. >> >> FOR, of course. >I am AGAINST, of course. (Ignore duplications) Figures. Commie pig. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 16:12:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 23:12:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 92194 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 23:12:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 23:12:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 23:12:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8601A74028E; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:12:32 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:12:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. >Typo. A=16. Still risks impossobility. Can we all just pretend A=17? Please? From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 16:17:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 23:17:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 82550 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 21:33:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 21:33:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 21:33:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 23041 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 21:33:43 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 21:33:43 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3ULXhR14757 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:33:43 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB041E4.345C82FE@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:36:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >Destroy two random Coins. > > > > >I am FOR this proposal. > > AGAINST. Hmm, interesting that he who happens to have the most number of coins, is most interested in preserving them... > > I said this ten minutes ago, but it hasn't gotten through. Forgive me if > this becomes a duplicate. If it is a duplicate, I also cast a FOR vote so > that I am effectively not voting extra. As a shortcut, I'll simply ignore the second AGAINST if/when it shows up. > > > I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them > at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. Which of course, means you. Personally I was hoping the bank stuff would be in place first, then you concerns are negligible. > > Once the Bank rule is in place, it means that the Bank is just a storage > space for extra Things. Except, that isn't accurate. Under the current rules and even including the currently pending bank related proposals (barring the one below), I could specify that 1,000 coins possessed by the bank were destroyed, to be replaced by an army of 1000 potato wielding flying monkeys... > Although there will be times when we will want to be > able to take other people's Coins, I encourage everyone to remember the > spirit of the Coin rule and vote down any proposal that seeks to destroy > Coins not belonging to is proposer or a supporter of the idea who is OK > giving up eir Coins for the cause. Remember again e who is worrying the most about Coins, is e who has the most Coins... > Vote against this, and establish a tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own > proposals. A tradition currently completely unfounded in Thermo Law... > In fact, even though it may come in handy for just and good purposes later, > let's get rid of this right now: > > > Destroy rule 5.2 and create a new rule 5.2 in its place reading: > A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been > submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired, with the > exception that a proposal which would destroy any Coins not belonging to its > proposer does not become pending until it has the support of the player > whose Coins would be destroyed. > Of course a better version would be less specific, replace both usages of Coins with Things, and you might be onto something... > > Create a rule in the section PROPOSALS whose number fits the criteria listed > below, with the text: > If a proposal expires that would result in the destruction of any Coins > belonging to a player who has not voted FOR it, the proposal fails > automatically. > Again replace Coins with Things, and this wuld be reasonable. > > The criteria are: > The number must be less than A. > The number must be higher than that of any rule in the group whose header is > foo. > Of the numbers that fit the first two criteria, there must be no eligible > numbers that require more digits to write in base ten than the number that > is chosen. > Of the numbers that fit the first three criteria, the lowest one will be > used. > > For the rule created above, A is six and foo is PROPOSALS > For reference: this would be 5.9 or 5.91 > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig, munificent creator of this proposal. > Everyone should note that while a great sacrifice this seems, it is actually a ruse, for Craig will be granted a Coin according to rule 2.1, if this proposl passes > > Create a rule in the section THINGS with the same criteria but A=6 and > foo=THINGS. Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. > It shall read: > No Coin may be destroyed by a proposal that does not have an affirmative > vote from the owner of the Coin. > > Destroy this proposal. Ah, so was that last rule creation merely a slip, or a deliberate deception to make this destruction not so obviously a simple ploy for you to gain a Coin from the passage of this proposal? > > > FOR, of course. > I am AGAINST, of course. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 16:27:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 23:27:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 72959 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 23:17:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 23:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 23:17:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 10214 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 23:17:26 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 23:17:26 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h3UNHQn13425 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:17:26 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EB05A34.EEE8E02D@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:20:22 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >>Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. > > >Typo. A=16. > > Still risks impossobility. Can we all just pretend A=17? Please? > Unfortunately, I believe we have to take the proposal in it's original form, which would mean A=6. Which leaves it impossible... From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 16:57:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 30 Apr 2003 23:57:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 60876 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2003 23:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2003 23:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 23:44:51 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A0011A87028E; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:45:05 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:44:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB05A34.EEE8E02D@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >>Impossible, x must be less than 6, but greater than either 9.7 or 16.0. >> >> >Typo. A=16. >> >> Still risks impossobility. Can we all just pretend A=17? Please? >Unfortunately, I believe we have to take the proposal in it's original form, which would mean >A=6. Which leaves it impossible... What happens, then? CFJ TIME! I submit two, so that if one is false we can still figure out what the court thinks: 1. Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, it is acceptable to give the resulting rule a different number. 2. Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 17:13:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:13:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 72918 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:13:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:13:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:13:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 21063 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:13:03 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:13:03 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h410D3I01002 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:13:03 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB0673E.2A274BF5@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:16:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Impossible Rule Number CFJs] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Dice server wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker > Rolls also sent to: > thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > ragnarok@p... > > # Two rolls should be returned, and will be assigned in order of CFJ > # Results will be assigned as follows: > # 1 - bd > # 2 - Dr Ducker > # 3 - Josh > # 4 - unlin_e > > No. of sides on every die: 4 > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > No. of dice rolls requested: 2 > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > 2 > 1 > > Information on the dice server: > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > The dice server is provided by: > > Shadow Island Games > http://www.pbm.com/ > > Original message follows: > > Return-Path: > > Delivered-To: dice@p... > > Received: (qmail 14948 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:07:13 -0000 > > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:07:13 -0000 > > Received: (qmail 19237 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:07:12 -0000 > > Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) > > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:07:12 -0000 > > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > > by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4107CD02394 > > for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:07:12 -0700 > > X-envelope-info: > > Sender: drduck@t... > > Message-ID: <3EB065E1.5BECFEC4@u...> > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:10:09 -0700 > > From: Doctor Ducker > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: Dice Server > > Subject: Ignoble rule numbers CFJs > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > > #P ragnarok@p... > > #S 4 > > #D 1 > > #R 2 > > #L 1 > > #T Impossible Rule Number CFJs > > #C Two rolls should be returned, and will be assigned in order of CFJ > > #C Results will be assigned as follows: > > #C 1 - bd > > #C 2 - Dr Ducker > > #C 3 - Josh > > #C 4 - unlin_e > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.3ia > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBPrBlSj8NitsTFjcVAQH5qwP/eXN95Rb0s73V0QTYQl49sZHFr1NuDW07 > a5OqNmnjhSkei1uldZ/7V/sY5HlP+KoWKs0LClT8nXzDxGo9pzc4t4swyzLw/K8M > fC2LpsOOE5O26pJgegtBUr7CENxajKLq5P64HUDpqXH0iYJlZEeMVwa5JCx/U23A > YZCtLlkriWw= > =6d09 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Even though I've tried to have the dice server send it directly to the list, I don't know if it will succeed, so I'm forwarding it manually. The results are: Dr Ducker is assigned the the CFJ reading: "Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, it is acceptable to give the resulting rule a different number." bd is assigned the CFJ reading: "Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored." From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 30 17:24:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:24:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 66243 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:24:10 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DA33C14E2C5; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:24:01 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Impossible Rule Number CFJs] Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:23:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EB0673E.2A274BF5@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EB0673E.2A274BF5@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304302023.59593.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 30 April 2003 08:16 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Dice server wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker > > Rolls also sent to: > > thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > > ragnarok@p... > > > > # Two rolls should be returned, and will be assigned in order of CFJ > > # Results will be assigned as follows: > > # 1 - bd > > # 2 - Dr Ducker > > # 3 - Josh > > # 4 - unlin_e > > > > No. of sides on every die: 4 > > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > > No. of dice rolls requested: 2 > > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > > > 2 > > 1 > > > > Information on the dice server: > > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > > Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > > subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > > > The dice server is provided by: > > > > Shadow Island Games > > http://www.pbm.com/ > > > > Original message follows: > > > Return-Path: > > > Delivered-To: dice@p... > > > Received: (qmail 14948 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:07:13 -00= 00 > > > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > > > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:07:13 -0000 > > > Received: (qmail 19237 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:07:12 -00= 00 > > > Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) > > > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:07:12 -0000 > > > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net > > > [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP i= d > > > h4107CD02394 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:07:12 -0700 > > > X-envelope-info: > > > Sender: drduck@t... > > > Message-ID: <3EB065E1.5BECFEC4@u...> > > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:10:09 -0700 > > > From: Doctor Ducker > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > > > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > To: Dice Server > > > Subject: Ignoble rule numbers CFJs > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > > > #P ragnarok@p... > > > #S 4 > > > #D 1 > > > #R 2 > > > #L 1 > > > #T Impossible Rule Number CFJs > > > #C Two rolls should be returned, and will be assigned in order of CFJ > > > #C Results will be assigned as follows: > > > #C 1 - bd > > > #C 2 - Dr Ducker > > > #C 3 - Josh > > > #C 4 - unlin_e > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: 2.6.3ia > > Charset: noconv > > > > iQCVAwUBPrBlSj8NitsTFjcVAQH5qwP/eXN95Rb0s73V0QTYQl49sZHFr1NuDW07 > > a5OqNmnjhSkei1uldZ/7V/sY5HlP+KoWKs0LClT8nXzDxGo9pzc4t4swyzLw/K8M > > fC2LpsOOE5O26pJgegtBUr7CENxajKLq5P64HUDpqXH0iYJlZEeMVwa5JCx/U23A > > YZCtLlkriWw=3D > > =3D6d09 > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Even though I've tried to have the dice server send it directly to the > list, I don't know if it will succeed, so I'm forwarding it manually. > > The results are: > > Dr Ducker is assigned the the CFJ reading: > "Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, crea= te > a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned > but cannot exist, it is acceptable to give the resulting rule a different > number." > > bd is assigned the CFJ reading: > "Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, crea= te > a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned > but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored." I say YEA. Er, TRUE. - --=20 bd I suppose one could claim that an undocumented feature has no semantics. :-( -- Larry Wall in <199710290036.QAA01818@w...> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sGkfx533NjVSos4RAlf+AKDFQgZzRZYVqdsF6nvz5LdkzSqdCQCgwA4i ZR8L/lvtSjl0aQRaORWV2zw=3D =3DBD9m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Wed Apr 30 17:31:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:31:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 48721 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:29:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:29:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:29:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 26262 invoked by uid 1006); 1 May 2003 00:29:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:29:06 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Message-ID: <20030430202906.A26208@a...> References: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...>; from drduck@u... on Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 11:51:47AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 11:51:47AM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > [snip] > Destroy two random Coins. > Since we've seen the Rightist Capitalist and the Commie Pig, I'm going to take the tack of the Chaotic Neutral Fighter Dwarf and decide via coinflip. Heads is for, tails is against. The coin is a Cuban 25-cent piece. The vote, it turns out, is AGAINST. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 17:35:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:35:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 68112 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:34:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:34:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:34:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABB05E019E; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:34:56 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] [Fwd: Impossible Rule Number CFJs] Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:34:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200304302023.59593.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Notice, O Thermians, that the result of this proposal will be to create one less rule than before. If I had left out the creation of that rule and the destruction of my Coin in the first place, I would have made a net profit of ZERO. As is, my Coin will be destroyed, but thanks to rule 2.1 it will be replaced. Thus, despite H. Speaker Ducker's worries that I was just adding a rule and destruction to profit, the truth is that I will wind up with the same number of Coins either way. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 17:36:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:36:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 74448 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:36:43 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC1A51901D6; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:36:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:36:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030430202906.A26208@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >The coin is a Cuban 25-cent piece. >The vote, it turns out, is AGAINST. Of COURSE you'll vote with the commie pig when you use a Cuban coin. Use a Chinese coin; the Chinese claim to be communists but in reality, you go to work, do your job, get paid a salary, then spend the money on various goods that are availible in the free market. From drduck@u... Wed Apr 30 17:42:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:42:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 48957 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:42:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:42:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:42:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 26311 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:42:56 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:42:56 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h410guE25165 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:42:56 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB06E42.F67B9CF9@u...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:45:54 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> <20030430202906.A26208@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 11:51:47AM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > > > > [snip] > > > Destroy two random Coins. > > > > Since we've seen the Rightist Capitalist and the Commie Pig, I'm going > to take the tack of the Chaotic Neutral Fighter Dwarf and decide via > coinflip. > > Heads is for, tails is against. > > The coin is a Cuban 25-cent piece. > > The vote, it turns out, is AGAINST. > > Josh > I would like a bit of clarification, Josh. Are you casting this vote in regards to my Judges proposal, or Craig's 'stealing coins' proposal? From cortex@n... Wed Apr 30 17:43:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:43:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 14711 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:43:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:43:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:43:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 26328 invoked by uid 1006); 1 May 2003 00:43:35 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:43:35 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Message-ID: <20030430204335.B26208@a...> References: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 04:57:57PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 04:57:57PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > >Destroy two random Coins. > > > > >I am FOR this proposal. > > AGAINST. AGAINST as well. Use your own damn coins. However: > I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them > at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. Which is only a sympathetic argument to those who expect to be richer than others. For all we know, the economy may quickly grow imbalanced. One player may hoard riches and keep the rest unjustly poor. Or something like that. I support the idea, but I don't feel like losing a random coin right now. > giving up eir Coins for the cause. Vote against this, and establish a > tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own proposals. In > fact, even though it may come in handy for just and good purposes later, > let's get rid of this right now: If voting against this sort of activity establishes said tradition, then legislation hardly seems necessary. If voting against it fails to do so, then the spirit of the people has evidenced itself. I'm secure in my belief in the tides of fate and the ethics of our little gestalt. Granted, I also have a fever, but I nonetheless believe that I actually believe in letting the voters decide the merits of coin distribution, rather than bulky, hasty legislative maneuvering. Speaking of which: > Madness, I say MADNESS, elided. > > FOR, of course. AGAINST. With every fiber of two randomly selected beings. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From bdonlan@b... Wed Apr 30 17:50:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:50:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 73314 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:50:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:50:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:50:12 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 45EA114E2CA; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:50:06 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:50:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> <20030430204335.B26208@a...> In-Reply-To: <20030430204335.B26208@a...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304302050.04189.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 30 April 2003 08:43 pm, cortex wrote: > On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 04:57:57PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > >Destroy two random Coins. > > > > > > > > >I am FOR this proposal. > > > > AGAINST. > > AGAINST as well. Use your own damn coins. However: AGAINST. [snip stuff that I agree with] > Speaking of which: > > > > Madness, I say MADNESS, elided. > > > > > FOR, of course. > > AGAINST. With every fiber of two randomly selected beings. Also AGAINST. - --=20 bd All is well that ends well. -- John Heywood -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sG88x533NjVSos4RAp4cAKDNK/HVXb3Owdl2lLBxNtLM4xE4TwCgkTxd aSGrKDuIQtasbFts4B+jFPI=3D =3D+ntj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 17:50:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 00:50:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 41972 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 00:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 00:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 00:50:37 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF5B8501A4; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:50:35 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:50:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030430204335.B26208@a...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >Destroy two random Coins. >> > >> >> >I am FOR this proposal. >> >> AGAINST. >AGAINST as well. Use your own damn coins. However: >> I support the idea, but you really ought to use your own Coins. Doing them >> at random means that richer players are more at risk than poorer players. >Which is only a sympathetic argument to those who expect to be richer >than others. For all we know, the economy may quickly grow imbalanced. >One player may hoard riches and keep the rest unjustly poor. Or >something like that. I support the idea, but I don't feel like losing a >random coin right now. It is also a sympathetic argument to anyone who recognizes that e has the potential to become richer than others, whether or not e actually does so. Right now I am richer than others - Josh is second, btw - but nothing I have done to enrich myself is unique to me. >> giving up eir Coins for the cause. Vote against this, and establish a >> tradition that players spend their own Coins on their own proposals. In >> fact, even though it may come in handy for just and good purposes later, >> let's get rid of this right now: >If voting against this sort of activity establishes said tradition, then >legislation hardly seems necessary. If voting against it fails to do >so, then the spirit of the people has evidenced itself. I'm hoping that voting against this until Dr Ducker uses eir own coins will suffice. The proposal is a just-in-case. From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 30 18:40:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 01:40:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 63053 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 01:40:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 01:40:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 01:40:39 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h411ecGF072623 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:40:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.160.34 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:40:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:40:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges To: In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030430164458.027d2990@m...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Craig wrote: >>Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, >> which requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and >> 5.9 > (assuming >>the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky to > find. > > No. The square root of 34 is irrational, and actually writing it out in > base ten takes an ifinity of digits. Writing it out in decimal format would require an infinite number of digits. Writing it as the square root of 34 requires exactly two base-ten digits. What's more, I contend that this notation still fits the condition of being written "in base ten". Ian From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 18:56:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 01:56:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 65497 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 01:56:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 01:56:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 01:56:55 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEE620260236; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:56:54 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:56:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>>Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, >>> which requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and >>> 5.9 >> (assuming >>>the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky to >> find. >> >> No. The square root of 34 is irrational, and actually writing it out in >> base ten takes an ifinity of digits. >Writing it out in decimal format would require an infinite number of >digits. Writing it as the square root of 34 requires exactly two base-ten >digits. What's more, I contend that this notation still fits the condition >of being written "in base ten". I contend that that is giving a formula to find the number rather than writing the number itself. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 18:59:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 01:59:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 10577 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 01:59:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 01:59:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 01:59:02 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF65202E0236; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:59:01 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:59:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>>>Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, >>>> which requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and >>>> 5.9 >>> (assuming >>>>the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky to >>> find. >>> >>> No. The square root of 34 is irrational, and actually writing it out in >>> base ten takes an ifinity of digits. >>Writing it out in decimal format would require an infinite number of >>digits. Writing it as the square root of 34 requires exactly two base-ten >>digits. What's more, I contend that this notation still fits the condition >>of being written "in base ten". >I contend that that is giving a formula to find the number rather than >writing the number itself. I further contend that if you really care, the rules don't require playerhood to submit a CFJ. From ragnarok@p... Wed Apr 30 19:25:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 02:25:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 45810 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 02:25:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 02:25:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 02:25:03 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A57D2A901D4; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:25:01 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200304302050.04189.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> AGAINST. With every fiber of two randomly selected beings. >Also AGAINST. Having seen enough opposition that I don't think I'll need to leave it in its present form, I convert my last Coin into 1000 BNS. I now own, let's see, 3 thousand BNS and no Coins. If I need my Coins I'll bring them back into the less protected form. From cortex@n... Wed Apr 30 20:49:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 03:49:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 89145 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 03:49:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 03:49:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 03:49:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 26857 invoked by uid 1006); 1 May 2003 03:49:35 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:49:35 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Message-ID: <20030430234935.A26848@a...> References: <3EB01B43.FEA7B2DF@u...> <20030430202906.A26208@a...> <3EB06E42.F67B9CF9@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EB06E42.F67B9CF9@u...>; from drduck@u... on Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 05:45:54PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 05:45:54PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > cortex wrote: > > The vote, it turns out, is AGAINST. > I would like a bit of clarification, Josh. > > Are you casting this vote in regards to my Judges proposal, or Craig's 'stealing coins' > proposal? The former. I know, cross-thread context scoping and all that. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From kellyia@e... Wed Apr 30 21:03:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 04:03:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 63031 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 04:03:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 04:03:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 04:03:07 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h41436GF017506 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:03:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.161.194 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:03:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:03:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges To: In-Reply-To: References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Craig wrote: >>>>Question: Does this include numbers such as the square root of 34, >>>> which requires only two digits to write but falls in between 5.8 and >>>> 5.9 >>> (assuming >>>>the highest is 5.8)? If so, the smallest such number may be tricky >>>> to >>> find. >>> >>> No. The square root of 34 is irrational, and actually writing it out >>> in base ten takes an ifinity of digits. > >>Writing it out in decimal format would require an infinite number of >> digits. Writing it as the square root of 34 requires exactly two >> base-ten digits. What's more, I contend that this notation still fits >> the condition of being written "in base ten". > > I contend that that is giving a formula to find the number rather than > writing the number itself. Perhaps at this point I'm getting too picky, but a number is an abstract thing; we cannot simply write a number, we can only express that number using different notations. One such is decimal notation, and this is often the standard because it is often the most convenient, but this does not mean that the decimal format "is" the number. Other societies, such as the Romans and the Egyptians, have developed perfectly functional systems of mathematics that don't even contain anything resembling the decimal system. Extending this notion, decimal notation is in fact probably an inferior format for expressing irrational numbers such as the square root of 34, since writing "the square root of 34" expresses the number much more precisely and conveniently than actually trying to write out its decimal expansion. As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be wiggle room. I make the following CFJs: 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal effect. 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing My Damn Coins", using the values A = 6 and foo = PROPOSALS. Ian From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 03:15:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 10:15:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 18749 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 10:15:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 10:15:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 10:15:25 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3BF10C015A; Thu, 01 May 2003 06:15:27 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 06:15:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be wiggle >room. I make the following CFJs: It doesn't forbid non-players, and anything not prohibited is OK. From kellyia@e... Thu May 01 06:17:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 13:17:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 43049 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 13:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 13:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 13:17:17 -0000 Received: from peristarkawan.earlham.edu (stu160135.student.earlham.edu [159.28.160.135]) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h41DHFGG039361 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 08:17:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030501081214.027a2c70@m...> X-Sender: kellyia@m... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 08:15:49 -0500 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges In-Reply-To: References: <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: Ian Kelly X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan At 05:15 AM 5/1/03, Craig wrote: > >As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be >wiggle > >room. I make the following CFJs: > >It doesn't forbid non-players, and anything not prohibited is OK. What about Rule 6.5? In any case, I still think that Rule 4.4 is only talking about permission and not about legal effect. Ian From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 09:46:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 16:46:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 48590 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 16:46:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 16:46:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 16:46:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.250] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2003 16:46:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:46:23 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030501081214.027a2c70@m...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 742 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > > >As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be > >wiggle > > >room. I make the following CFJs: > > > >It doesn't forbid non-players, and anything not prohibited is OK. > > What about Rule 6.5? In any case, I still think that Rule 4.4 is only > talking about permission and not about legal effect. Hmm... is it even part of the gamestate? It can become such, through the judgement process, but there is no standard of what the gamestate is. So are CFJs with no judges yet assigned part of the gamestate? If not, then the Stenographer can still assign judges, and the judges can still judge them, with legal effect. And if a judge judges your CFJ that you can submit a CFJ to be false, what has e judged? From drduck@u... Thu May 01 09:58:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 16:58:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 59771 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 16:58:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 16:58:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 16:58:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 14474 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 16:58:10 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 16:58:10 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h41GwA630059 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 09:58:10 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB152E6.A1C51581@u...> Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 10:01:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Impossible Rule Number CFJs] References: <3EB0673E.2A274BF5@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Dr Ducker is assigned the the CFJ reading: > "Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a > rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but > cannot exist, it is acceptable to give the resulting rule a different number." > I judge FALSE. From drduck@u... Thu May 01 10:27:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 17:27:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 10754 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 17:27:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 17:27:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 17:27:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 17497 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 17:27:22 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 17:27:22 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h41HRLx24588 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 10:27:21 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 10:30:38 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > > As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be wiggle > room. I make the following CFJs: > > 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal effect. > > 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three > rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing My Damn > Coins", using the values A = 6 and foo = PROPOSALS. > In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed with regard to these "potential" CFJs. I believe the best course is for an actual player to take action to rectify this, therefore: Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: "A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." Destroy this proposal. I, of course, vote FOR. From kellyia@e... Thu May 01 11:00:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 18:00:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 59893 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:00:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 18:00:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:00:20 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h41I0HGF066737 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 13:00:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.230.16 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2003 13:00:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33425.159.28.230.16.1051812017.squirrel@w...> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:00:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges To: In-Reply-To: <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Doctor Ducker wrote: > Ian Kelly wrote: > >> >> As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be >> wiggle room. I make the following CFJs: >> >> 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal effect. >> >> 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three >> rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing My >> Damn Coins", using the values A = 6 and foo = PROPOSALS. >> > > In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed with > regard to these "potential" CFJs. > > I believe the best course is for an actual player to take action to > rectify this, therefore: > > > Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: > "A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." > > Destroy this proposal. > > > I, of course, vote FOR. I would prefer fixing it the other way: allow non-players to submit CFJs. As to my CFJs, I recommend assigning them. As Craig notes, if the first one is found true, then you have performed correctly. If the first one is found false, then the judgements simply have no legal effect, and no foul is committed by subsequently ignoring them. Ian From drduck@u... Thu May 01 11:17:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 18:17:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 68240 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:17:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 18:17:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:17:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 32552 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:17:46 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:17:46 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h41IHjn03843 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 11:17:45 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB1658F.1D961C1A@u...> Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 11:21:03 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> <33425.159.28.230.16.1051812017.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Ian Kelly wrote: > > > >> > >> As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be > >> wiggle room. I make the following CFJs: > >> > >> 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal effect. > >> > >> 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three > >> rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing My > >> Damn Coins", using the values A = 6 and foo = PROPOSALS. > >> > > > > In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed with > > regard to these "potential" CFJs. > > > > I believe the best course is for an actual player to take action to > > rectify this, therefore: > > > > > > Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: > > "A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." > > > > Destroy this proposal. > > > > > > I, of course, vote FOR. > > I would prefer fixing it the other way: allow non-players to submit CFJs. Perhaps you should make this into a registration proposal then. > > As to my CFJs, I recommend assigning them. As Craig notes, if the first > one is found true, then you have performed correctly. If the first one is > found false, then the judgements simply have no legal effect, and no foul > is committed by subsequently ignoring them. > The issue I see with assigning Judges to these "potential" CFJs is that, by making an assignment, I am implicitly declaring that they are in fact CFJs, and that's a determination I feel is in opposition to the spirit of rule 0.2 . While I may be a "Commie pig" (although I prefer Porcine Socialist), as Craig puts it, I am not a dictator, capable, or even willing to make such sweeping and arbitrary decisions. From kellyia@e... Thu May 01 11:44:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 18:44:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 34203 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:42:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 18:42:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:42:09 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h41Ig5GF009945 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 13:42:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.230.16 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2003 13:42:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33628.159.28.230.16.1051814525.squirrel@w...> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:42:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges To: In-Reply-To: <3EB1658F.1D961C1A@u...> References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> <33425.159.28.230.16.1051812017.squirrel@w...> <3EB1658F.1D961C1A@u...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Doctor Ducker wrote: > Ian Kelly wrote: > >> Doctor Ducker wrote: >> > Ian Kelly wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may >> be wiggle room. I make the following CFJs: >> >> >> >> 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal >> effect. >> >> >> >> 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three >> >> rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing >> My >> >> Damn Coins", using the values A = 6 and foo = PROPOSALS. >> >> >> > >> > In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed >> with regard to these "potential" CFJs. >> > >> > I believe the best course is for an actual player to take action to >> rectify this, therefore: >> > >> > >> > Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: >> > "A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." >> > >> > Destroy this proposal. >> > >> > >> > I, of course, vote FOR. >> >> I would prefer fixing it the other way: allow non-players to submit >> CFJs. > > Perhaps you should make this into a registration proposal then. > >> >> As to my CFJs, I recommend assigning them. As Craig notes, if the >> first one is found true, then you have performed correctly. If the >> first one is found false, then the judgements simply have no legal >> effect, and no foul is committed by subsequently ignoring them. >> > > The issue I see with assigning Judges to these "potential" CFJs is that, > by making an assignment, I am implicitly declaring that they are in fact > CFJs, and that's a determination I feel is in opposition to the spirit > of rule 0.2 . > > While I may be a "Commie pig" (although I prefer Porcine Socialist), as > Craig puts it, I am not a dictator, capable, or even willing to make > such sweeping and arbitrary decisions. On the other hand, by refusing to assign judges, you are implicitly declaring that they are in fact not CFJs. Ian From kellyia@e... Thu May 01 11:56:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 18:56:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 78097 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:50:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 18:50:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:50:07 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h41ImkGF015976 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 13:48:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.230.16 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2003 13:48:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33640.159.28.230.16.1051814926.squirrel@w...> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:48:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: proposal To: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.71 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Destroy rule 11.0 and replace it with a new rule 11.0 with the text "Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement." Create two coins in the possession of random players. Destroy this proposal. Ian From drduck@u... Thu May 01 11:57:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 18:57:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 81818 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:52:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 18:52:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:52:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 3100 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:52:05 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:52:05 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h41Iq5u32440 for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 11:52:05 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB16D99.33B129A6@u...> Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 11:55:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> <33425.159.28.230.16.1051812017.squirrel@w...> <3EB1658F.1D961C1A@u...> <33628.159.28.230.16.1051814525.squirrel@w...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Ian Kelly wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Ian Kelly wrote: > > > >> Doctor Ducker wrote: > >> > Ian Kelly wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may > >> be wiggle room. I make the following CFJs: > >> >> > >> >> 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal > >> effect. > >> >> > >> >> 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three > >> >> rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing > >> My > >> >> Damn Coins", using the values A = 6 and foo = PROPOSALS. > >> >> > >> > > >> > In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed > >> with regard to these "potential" CFJs. > >> > > >> > I believe the best course is for an actual player to take action to > >> rectify this, therefore: > >> > > >> > > >> > Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: > >> > "A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." > >> > > >> > Destroy this proposal. > >> > > >> > > >> > I, of course, vote FOR. > >> > >> I would prefer fixing it the other way: allow non-players to submit > >> CFJs. > > > > Perhaps you should make this into a registration proposal then. > > > >> > >> As to my CFJs, I recommend assigning them. As Craig notes, if the > >> first one is found true, then you have performed correctly. If the > >> first one is found false, then the judgements simply have no legal > >> effect, and no foul is committed by subsequently ignoring them. > >> > > > > The issue I see with assigning Judges to these "potential" CFJs is that, > > by making an assignment, I am implicitly declaring that they are in fact > > CFJs, and that's a determination I feel is in opposition to the spirit > > of rule 0.2 . > > > > While I may be a "Commie pig" (although I prefer Porcine Socialist), as > > Craig puts it, I am not a dictator, capable, or even willing to make > > such sweeping and arbitrary decisions. > > On the other hand, by refusing to assign judges, you are implicitly > declaring that they are in fact not CFJs. > That would be true, except that there is a proposal on the record which would alter the state of this determination. If it is voted through, then I can explicitly decline to assign judges. If instead it is not voted through, then I will be following an indicated consensus, and explicity assign judges. I think it's important to note that I am not "refusing", I am delaying, any such assignments. From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 12:56:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 19:56:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 12914 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 19:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 19:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 19:56:43 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC0235D01B6; Thu, 01 May 2003 15:56:50 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] proposal Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:56:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <33640.159.28.230.16.1051814926.squirrel@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > >Destroy rule 11.0 and replace it with a new rule 11.0 with the text "Any >person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement." >Create two coins in the possession of random players. Ah, further evidence of bolshevist influence in this great game. I'm FOR it. From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 12:57:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 19:57:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 60704 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 19:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 19:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 19:57:32 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC322857026A; Thu, 01 May 2003 15:57:38 -0400 To: Subject: FW: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:57:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Hasn't gotten through yet. But now that I repost, it will be a duplicate. -----Original Message----- From: Craig [mailto:ragnarok@p...] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:51 PM To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges > >Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: >"A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." >Destroy this proposal. > I Abstain. From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 13:04:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 20:04:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 84457 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 20:04:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 20:04:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 20:04:39 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADDE3C801AC; Thu, 01 May 2003 16:04:46 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:04:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal effect. >In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed with regard to these >"potential" CFJs. If it were me, I would assign only the first one. Then, if it is judged TRUE, nothing happens - the CFJ was invalid, so it won't become a rule, merely a precedent. If it is false, then you assign the other one. Precedents don't seem to affect anything, though, as we are currently playing. I submit the following guidelines for judging CFJs, which are not submitted as any sort of official document. 1. CFJs are statements of what is true at the time they are submitted. They do not indicate what ought to be true or what might become true. Thus, if a CFJ alleges that it is a rule, then that CFJ will become true if it is judged true, but it should be judged false. 2. Within the areas that are still grey, of course, the highest priority in figuring out what is true must of course go to the letter of the rules. This remains true even if the letter contradicts the spirit. 3. If it is still not clear, the spirit of the rules and the precedents set by earlier CFJs should be given roughly equal weight. This will probably be the majority of cases. 4. And please, give an argument for why your judgement is correct. It may not be obvious why you feel that way. From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 13:15:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 20:15:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 75744 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 19:51:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 19:50:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 19:50:58 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAA849E01F8; Thu, 01 May 2003 15:51:04 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:51:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > >Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: >"A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." >Destroy this proposal. > I Abstain. From bdonlan@b... Thu May 01 13:31:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 20:31:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 38686 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 20:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 20:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 20:31:27 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 763AA14E5EB; Thu, 1 May 2003 16:31:16 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal Regarding Deregistered Judges Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:31:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <4955.159.28.160.34.1051753238.squirrel@w...> <1375.159.28.161.194.1051761786.squirrel@w...> <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EB159BC.278C67C@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305011631.15407.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 01 May 2003 01:30 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > Ian Kelly wrote: > > As to the CFJ point, 11.0 clearly says "any player", but there may be > > wiggle room. I make the following CFJs: > > > > 1) A CFJ submitted by a person who is not a player has legal effect. > > > > 2) The square root of 34 is a number that satisfies the first three > > rule-numbering criteria specified in the proposal "Stop Stealing My > > Damn Coins", using the values A =3D 6 and foo =3D PROPOSALS. > > In my capacity as Stenographer, I am unsure as to how to proceed with > regard to these "potential" CFJs. > > I believe the best course is for an actual player to take action to recti= fy > this, therefore: > > > Create a rule 11.01 under the group JUDGEMENT, which reads: > "A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player." > > Destroy this proposal. > > > I, of course, vote FOR. FOR - --=20 bd An alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you do. -- Dylan Thomas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sYQTx533NjVSos4RAk+dAJ4or/RENzvQRwzsmXxSEdSzDK/IiwCgkDky uGwwxUYMvVvq1H32HCmR39c=3D =3D6oon -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Thu May 01 13:32:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 20:32:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 58619 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 20:32:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 20:32:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 20:32:36 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CC66314E5EC; Thu, 1 May 2003 16:32:25 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] proposal Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:32:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <33640.159.28.230.16.1051814926.squirrel@w...> In-Reply-To: <33640.159.28.230.16.1051814926.squirrel@w...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305011632.24944.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 01 May 2003 02:48 pm, Ian Kelly wrote: > > Destroy rule 11.0 and replace it with a new rule 11.0 with the text "Any > person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For > Judgement." > > Create two coins in the possession of random players. > > Destroy this proposal. > YES - --=20 bd Eu quero =E9 morrer em paz, durante o sono, como o meu av=F4! E n=E3o gritando aterrorizado, como os seus passageiros... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+sYRYx533NjVSos4RArhUAKDThwLufDYTkckk5OSb9LRlQCSsHwCgqet8 j3mcRcbo5p3sYDs6d2vZMrc=3D =3Dm1O0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Thu May 01 16:18:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 23:18:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 71546 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 23:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 23:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 23:18:06 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 976AF14E10F; Thu, 1 May 2003 19:15:29 -0400 (EDT) To: spoon-business@n... Subject: Re: [spoon-discuss] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:15:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, spoon-discuss@n... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305011915.28080.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 01 May 2003 06:54 pm, Craig wrote: > >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show up > >> in > >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins into > >> 1000 > >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. > > > >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an > >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of > >how B can fix its ruleset. > > > >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, > >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist exactly > >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. > >How do we reconcile this? > > 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think that > protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone see= s > this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. [[ I think we need to rerwrite the Coins <-> BNS conversion to use the bank= s=20 on B Nomic and Thermo, instead of just magically transmuting it. That shoul= d=20 solve the problem. In the meantime, I'll CFI it. ]] I submit the following CFI: {{ When Thermodynomic Coins are converted into BNS, the new BNS comes from the= B=20 Nomic Bank. }} - --=20 bd O melhor amigo do escritor =E9 a lata de lixo. -- Isaac B. Singer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+saqPx533NjVSos4RAl3hAKCTAOWEM4R6KtRMuzWmVW8EaXaeuACeP/Tl oQ49r7TwH1zmdg5fue1wXyE=3D =3DkPmH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Thu May 01 16:26:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 23:26:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 822 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 23:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 23:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 23:26:58 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E10ED14E111; Thu, 1 May 2003 19:25:51 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: [spoon-discuss] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:24:41 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200305011915.28080.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200305011915.28080.bdonlan@b...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305011924.41939.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 01 May 2003 07:15 pm, bd wrote: > On Thursday 01 May 2003 06:54 pm, Craig wrote: > > >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show = up > > >> in > > >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins in= to > > >> 1000 > > >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. > > > > > >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an > > >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of > > >how B can fix its ruleset. > > > > > >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, > > >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist exactly > > >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. > > >How do we reconcile this? > > > > 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think th= at > > protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone > > sees this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. > > [[ I think we need to rerwrite the Coins <-> BNS conversion to use the > banks on B Nomic and Thermo, instead of just magically transmuting it. Th= at > should solve the problem. In the meantime, I'll CFI it. ]] > > I submit the following CFI: > {{ > When Thermodynomic Coins are converted into BNS, the new BNS comes from t= he > B Nomic Bank. > }} Oops, wrong list. - --=20 bd We have found all life forms in the galaxy are capable of superior development. -- Kirk, "The Gamesters of Triskelion", stardate 3211.7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+say5x533NjVSos4RAvttAKCgUJfwrcD2Yk4N04dxIV4+NrIDRgCg0fV0 +iGX7sLS0ONVPXpV9lfZFnI=3D =3DwTk8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Thu May 01 19:18:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 02:17:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 21517 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 02:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 02:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 02:18:00 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5572A66026A; Thu, 01 May 2003 22:17:59 -0400 To: Cc: , Subject: RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:18:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200305011902.24000.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show up >> >> in >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins into >> >> 1000 >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. >> > >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of >> >how B can fix its ruleset. >> > >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist exactly >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. >> >How do we reconcile this? >> >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think that >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone sees >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo >interact. I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo. From drduck@u... Fri May 02 10:32:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 17:32:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 24628 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 17:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 17:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 17:26:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 3344 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 17:26:05 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 2 May 2003 17:26:05 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h42HQ4s09734; Fri, 2 May 2003 10:26:04 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@u... Message-ID: <3EB2AB0C.6DE3325A@u...> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 10:29:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Cc: nomicmarket@n..., spoon-discuss@n... Subject: Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show up > >> >> in > >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins into > >> >> 1000 > >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. > >> > > >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an > >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of > >> >how B can fix its ruleset. > >> > > >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, > >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist exactly > >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. > >> >How do we reconcile this? > >> > >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think that > >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone > sees > >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. > > >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo > >interact. > > I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo. > First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo. Rule 0.5 hadn't yet been passed when you started these things. Second, at no point *could* you have removed your coins from Thermo into the Market, or returned hence with coins. Even under Rule 0.5, the only Things that are allowed into the Market are Players. Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details, There is no hazard *yet* to B Nomic's Bank and BNS; There are effectively four "Object Types" in question: (1) Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins, (3) B-Nomic::BNS, (4) Market::BNS. Craig's actions are as follows: 1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo. 2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air 3) Converting these Coins into 2,000 Market::BNS 4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air 5) Converting that Coin into 1,000 Market::BNS 6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins 7) Attempting to bring these Coins into Thermo, which is against Thermo's Ruleset because it would be a change to the gamestate which is NOT defined within the ruleset. Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any B-Nomic:BNS, with which to effect the B-NomicBank. Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to safe-guard his Coins, against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather silly, because they had no effect on his Thermo:Coins. From ragnarok@p... Fri May 02 13:27:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 20:27:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 76992 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 20:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 20:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 20:27:42 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4C37050076; Fri, 02 May 2003 16:27:47 -0400 To: Cc: , Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:27:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB2AB0C.6DE3325A@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show up >> >> >> in >> >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins into >> >> >> 1000 >> >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. >> >> > >> >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an >> >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of >> >> >how B can fix its ruleset. >> >> > >> >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, >> >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist exactly >> >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. >> >> >How do we reconcile this? >> >> >> >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think that >> >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone >> sees >> >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. >> >> >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo >> >interact. >> >> I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo. >First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo. Rule 0.5 hadn't yet been >passed when you started these things. Rule 0.5 would have explicitly granted me these powers. Instead, they were implicitly granted by rule 4.4, as there are not any restrictions on entering the market, even though there is no rule specifically saying that there is one. I therefore CFJ on the following: There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. >Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details, There is no hazard *yet* >to B Nomic's Bank and BNS; There are effectively four "Object Types" in question: (1) >Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins, (3) B-Nomic::BNS, (4) Market::BNS. I agree that there is no hazard *yet*. The potential hazard, however, is enough for me to pull back out. >Craig's actions are as follows: >1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo. Rule 4.4 >2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air They were the same two Coins that I had in Thermo. >3) Converting these Coins into 2,000 Market::BNS As the market rules explicitly empowered me to do. >4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air Which I had in Thermo. >5) Converting that Coin into 1,000 Market::BNS Again, the market ruleset lets me do this. >6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins And again. >Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any B-Nomic:BNS, with which to >effect the B-NomicBank. Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to safe-guard his Coins, >against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather silly, because they had no >effect on his Thermo:Coins. Yes, they did; the Thermo::Coins are the same objects as the Market::Coins, the difference being in how they were being used. There was no net change, however. From unlin_e@y... Fri May 02 14:00:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 21:00:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 55740 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 21:00:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 21:00:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.236) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 21:00:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20030502210032.41991.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 May 2003 14:00:32 PDT Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] proposal To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > > > >Destroy rule 11.0 and replace it with a new rule 11.0 with the text "Any > >person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For > Judgement." > > >Create two coins in the possession of random players. > > Ah, further evidence of bolshevist influence in this great game. I'm FOR it. > unlin_e is FOR it, too. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From drduck@u... Fri May 02 14:14:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 21:14:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 43808 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 21:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 21:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 21:14:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 22116 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 21:14:14 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 2 May 2003 21:14:14 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h42LEDc24600; Fri, 2 May 2003 14:14:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB2E08A.2B2C60FD@u...> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 14:18:02 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Cc: spoon-discuss@n..., nomicmarket@n... Subject: Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show > up > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins > into > >> >> >> 1000 > >> >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. > >> >> > > >> >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an > >> >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of > >> >> >how B can fix its ruleset. > >> >> > > >> >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, > >> >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist > exactly > >> >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. > >> >> >How do we reconcile this? > >> >> > >> >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think > that > >> >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone > >> sees > >> >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. > >> > >> >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo > >> >interact. > >> > >> I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo. > > >First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo. Rule 0.5 > hadn't yet been > >passed when you started these things. > > Rule 0.5 would have explicitly granted me these powers. Instead, they were > implicitly granted by rule 4.4, as there are not any restrictions on > entering the market, even though there is no rule specifically saying that > there is one. You're forgetting Thermo.Rule::6.5, which states "No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset". So what rule, specifically, prior to the passage of 0.5, allowed you to arbitrarily destroy or remove Thermo::Coins from the gamestate of Thermo? And the same question is actually still present after the passage of 0.5, since it only referrs to "players" not eir possessions, and the concept of "entering the nomic market", does not in any way mean that the gamestate of Thermo has changed, merely that the conditions within the Market.Rules for entering the market are doable. > I therefore CFJ on the following: There are currently no > restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. Real life is getting in the way the last day or so, and I'm trying to catch up. I'll deal with this explicitly within Thermo as soon as I can, but I'll pont out that with the passage of Thermo.Rule::0.5, this *should* be trivially TRUE. Again, my point is that the issue is not regarding "players" but rather Coins. >Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details, There is no hazard *yet* > >to B Nomic's Bank and BNS; There are effectively four "Object Types" in > question: (1) > >Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins, (3) B-Nomic::BNS, (4) Market::BNS. > > I agree that there is no hazard *yet*. The potential hazard, however, is > enough for me to pull back out. > Acknowledged, especially as I don't know the ruleset of B Nomic, they may potentially have issues that Thermo doesn't. > > >Craig's actions are as follows: > >1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo. > > Rule 4.4 Yes, you as a player. I'll even concede that the "thin air" in 2 and 4 is a COPY(made in Market::Coins) of the Thermo::Coins your Thermo::Player self had, but in order to "remove" your Thermo::Coins from Thermo, you would need a Thermo.Rule that allowed you to change the gamestate in such a manner, there is no such rule. > > > >2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air > > They were the same two Coins that I had in Thermo. No, because the gamestate of Thermo was unchanged. At best they were copies. > > > >3) Converting these Coins into 2,000 Market::BNS > > As the market rules explicitly empowered me to do. Note I made no references as to any invalid actions here. > > > >4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air > > Which I had in Thermo. Nope, see above. > > > >5) Converting that Coin into 1,000 Market::BNS > > Again, the market ruleset lets me do this. Yup. > > > >6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins > > And again. Yup. But upon returning to Thermo, even if you had skipped step 6, you would have found your same 3 Thermo::Coins sitting in your possession, and no BNS. > > > >Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any > B-Nomic:BNS, with which to > >effect the B-NomicBank. Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to > safe-guard his Coins, > >against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather > silly, because they had no > >effect on his Thermo:Coins. > > Yes, they did; the Thermo::Coins are the same objects as the Market::Coins, > the difference being in how they were being used. There was no net change, > however. > You have not yet stated how that can POSSIBLY be, as these are entirely different games. Any object within one is NOT the same as another object in a different game, unless BOTH games establish a set of transformations that allows such to occur. Thermo clearly does not have such a set of Transformations, nor does Nomic Market, at least at this point. From ragnarok@p... Fri May 02 14:57:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 21:57:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 23650 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 21:57:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 21:57:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 21:57:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9C61DE20260; Fri, 02 May 2003 17:57:26 -0400 To: Cc: , Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:57:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB2E08A.2B2C60FD@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show >> up >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins >> into >> >> >> >> 1000 >> >> >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an >> >> >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of >> >> >> >how B can fix its ruleset. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, >> >> >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist >> exactly >> >> >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. >> >> >> >How do we reconcile this? >> >> >> >> >> >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think >> that >> >> >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone >> >> sees >> >> >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. >> >> >> >> >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo >> >> >interact. >> >> >> >> I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo. >> >> >First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo. Rule 0.5 >> hadn't yet been >> >passed when you started these things. >> >> Rule 0.5 would have explicitly granted me these powers. Instead, they were >> implicitly granted by rule 4.4, as there are not any restrictions on >> entering the market, even though there is no rule specifically saying that >> there is one. >You're forgetting Thermo.Rule::6.5, which states "No changes to the gamestate may occur except >as defined in the ruleset". So what rule, specifically, prior to the passage of 0.5, allowed >you to arbitrarily destroy or remove Thermo::Coins from the gamestate of Thermo? And the same >question is actually still present after the passage of 0.5, since it only referrs to "players" >not eir possessions, and the concept of "entering the nomic market", does not in any way mean >that the gamestate of Thermo has changed, merely that the conditions within the Market.Rules for >entering the market are doable. The gamestate is a rather vague concept. >> I therefore CFJ on the following: There are currently no >> restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. >Real life is getting in the way the last day or so, and I'm trying to catch up. I'll deal with >this explicitly within Thermo as soon as I can, but I'll pont out that with the passage of >Thermo.Rule::0.5, this *should* be trivially TRUE. Again, my point is that the issue is not >regarding "players" but rather Coins. Ah, but 0.5 is not yet passed. >>Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details, There is no hazard *yet* >> >to B Nomic's Bank and BNS; There are effectively four "Object Types" in >> question: (1) >> >Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins, (3) B-Nomic::BNS, (4) Market::BNS. >> >> I agree that there is no hazard *yet*. The potential hazard, however, is >> enough for me to pull back out. >Acknowledged, especially as I don't know the ruleset of B Nomic, they may potentially have >issues that Thermo doesn't. I do not know them either, but I understand that there is a perceived potential threat. >> >Craig's actions are as follows: >> >1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo. >> >> Rule 4.4 >Yes, you as a player. I'll even concede that the "thin air" in 2 and 4 is a COPY(made in >Market::Coins) of the Thermo::Coins your Thermo::Player self had, but in order to "remove" your >Thermo::Coins from Thermo, you would need a Thermo.Rule that allowed you to change the gamestate >in such a manner, there is no such rule. >> >2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air >> >> They were the same two Coins that I had in Thermo. >No, because the gamestate of Thermo was unchanged. At best they were copies. >> >4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air >> >> Which I had in Thermo. >Nope, see above. >> >6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins >> >> And again. >Yup. But upon returning to Thermo, even if you had skipped step 6, you would have found your >same 3 Thermo::Coins sitting in your possession, and no BNS. >> >Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any >> B-Nomic:BNS, with which to >> >effect the B-NomicBank. Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to >> safe-guard his Coins, >> >against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather >> silly, because they had no >> >effect on his Thermo:Coins. >> >> Yes, they did; the Thermo::Coins are the same objects as the Market::Coins, >> the difference being in how they were being used. There was no net change, >> however. >You have not yet stated how that can POSSIBLY be, as these are entirely different games. Any >object within one is NOT the same as another object in a different game, unless BOTH games >establish a set of transformations that allows such to occur. Thermo clearly does not have such >a set of Transformations, nor does Nomic Market, at least at this point. The whole POINT of internomic trading is that they were the same objects. Consequently, some further CFJs. 1. Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 2. Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 3. For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. 4. For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of Thermo. 5. Craig currently has three Coins. From drduck@u... Fri May 02 15:24:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 22:24:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 17027 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 22:24:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 22:24:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 22:24:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 27034 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 22:24:32 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 2 May 2003 22:24:32 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h42MOVu01597 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 15:24:31 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EB2F105.F5DB4ED2@u...> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:28:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > > > > > > > > OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show up > > > > > > > > > in Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins into > > > > > > > > > 1000 BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an > > > > > > > > example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of > > > > > > > > how B can fix its ruleset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market, > > > > > > > > we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist exactly > > > > > > > > 5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more. > > > > > > > > How do we reconcile this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think that > > > > > > > protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone sees > > > > > > > this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins. > > > > > > > > > > > I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo interact. > > > > > > > > > > I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo. > > > > > > > First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo. Rule 0.5 > > > > hadn't yet been passed when you started these things. > > > > > > Rule 0.5 would have explicitly granted me these powers. Instead, they were > > > implicitly granted by rule 4.4, as there are not any restrictions on > > > entering the market, even though there is no rule specifically saying that > > > there is one. > > > You're forgetting Thermo.Rule::6.5, which states "No changes to the gamestate may occur > except > > as defined in the ruleset". So what rule, specifically, prior to the passage of 0.5, > allowed > > you to arbitrarily destroy or remove Thermo::Coins from the gamestate of Thermo? And the > same > > question is actually still present after the passage of 0.5, since it only referrs to > "players" > > not eir possessions, and the concept of "entering the nomic market", does not in any way > mean > > that the gamestate of Thermo has changed, merely that the conditions within the Market.Rules > for > > entering the market are doable. > > The gamestate is a rather vague concept. That seems to be a distinct truism. > > > > > I therefore CFJ on the following: There are currently no > > > restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. > > > Real life is getting in the way the last day or so, and I'm trying to catch up. I'll deal > with > > this explicitly within Thermo as soon as I can, but I'll pont out that with the passage of > > Thermo.Rule::0.5, this *should* be trivially TRUE. Again, my point is that the issue is not > > > regarding "players" but rather Coins. > > Ah, but 0.5 is not yet passed. Actually it has, I just haven't been able to update the ruleset just yet, though it should be in about 10 more minutes. > > > > > > Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details, There is no > hazard *yet* > > > > to B Nomic's Bank and BNS; There are effectively four "Object Types" in question: (1) > > > > Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins, (3) B-Nomic::BNS, (4) Market::BNS. > > > > > > I agree that there is no hazard *yet*. The potential hazard, however, is > > > enough for me to pull back out. > > > Acknowledged, especially as I don't know the ruleset of B Nomic, they may potentially have > > issues that Thermo doesn't. > > I do not know them either, but I understand that there is a perceived potential threat. > > > > >Craig's actions are as follows: > > > >1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo. > > > > > > Rule 4.4 > > > Yes, you as a player. I'll even concede that the "thin air" in 2 and 4 is a COPY(made in > > Market::Coins) of the Thermo::Coins your Thermo::Player self had, but in order to "remove" > your > > Thermo::Coins from Thermo, you would need a Thermo.Rule that allowed you to change the > gamestate > > in such a manner, there is no such rule. > > > > > 2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air > > > > > > They were the same two Coins that I had in Thermo. > > > No, because the gamestate of Thermo was unchanged. At best they were copies. > > > > > 4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air > > > > > > Which I had in Thermo. > > > Nope, see above. > > > > > 6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins > > > > > > And again. > > > Yup. But upon returning to Thermo, even if you had skipped step 6, you would have found > your > > same 3 Thermo::Coins sitting in your possession, and no BNS. > > > > > Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any B-Nomic:BNS, with which > to > > > > effect the B-NomicBank. Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to safe-guard his > Coins, > > > > against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather silly, because > they had no > > > > effect on his Thermo:Coins. > > > > > > Yes, they did; the Thermo::Coins are the same objects as the Market::Coins, > > > the difference being in how they were being used. There was no net change, > > > however. > > > You have not yet stated how that can POSSIBLY be, as these are entirely different games. > Any > > object within one is NOT the same as another object in a different game, unless BOTH games > > establish a set of transformations that allows such to occur. Thermo clearly does not have > such > > a set of Transformations, nor does Nomic Market, at least at this point. > > The whole POINT of internomic trading is that they were the same objects. Consequently, some > further CFJs. > > 1. Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. > 2. Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to the submission of > this CFJ. > 3. For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the > Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. > 4. For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the > Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of Thermo. > 5. Craig currently has three Coins. > Okay, first, in the spirit of fairness, I'll allow you te rescind that last one if you want. Remember, that these sentences will be written into rules *as is* if they're found TRUE. Do you really want a rule that says specifically and precisely how many Coins you have? From ragnarok@p... Fri May 02 15:57:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 22:57:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 98628 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 22:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 22:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 22:57:00 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7C423701E4; Fri, 02 May 2003 18:57:08 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:57:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB2F105.F5DB4ED2@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> 5. Craig currently has three Coins. >Okay, first, in the spirit of fairness, I'll allow you te rescind that last one if you want. >Remember, that these sentences will be written into rules *as is* if they're found TRUE. Do you >really want a rule that says specifically and precisely how many Coins you have? Whoops. No. Thank you for your forgiveness, o munificent stenographer. Number five is withdrawn. From kellyia@e... Fri May 02 16:08:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kellyia@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 23:08:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 77510 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 23:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 23:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ke.earlham.edu) (159.28.1.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 23:08:01 -0000 Received: from earlham.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ke.earlham.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h42N80GF061616 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 18:08:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kellyia@e...) Received: from 159.28.160.34 (SquirrelMail authenticated user kellyia) by webmail.earlham.edu with HTTP; Fri, 2 May 2003 18:08:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1838.159.28.160.34.1051916880.squirrel@w...> Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:08:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. To: In-Reply-To: References: <3EB2F105.F5DB4ED2@u...> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sanitizer: This message has passed the MIMEDefang sanitizer. X-Sanitizer-URL: http://www.earlham.edu/~ecs X-Sanitizer-Version: MIMEDefang/ECSanitizer $Revision: 1.16 $ X-Sanitizer-Config-Version: $Revision: 1.74 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.30 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) From: "Ian Kelly" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100035622 X-Yahoo-Profile: peristarkawan Craig wrote: >>> 5. Craig currently has three Coins. > >>Okay, first, in the spirit of fairness, I'll allow you te rescind that >> last > one if you want. >>Remember, that these sentences will be written into rules *as is* if > they're found TRUE. Do you >>really want a rule that says specifically and precisely how many Coins >> you > have? > > Whoops. No. Thank you for your forgiveness, o munificent stenographer. > Number five is withdrawn. Actually, that could be useful for you to have. Spend a coin and you'll still have three. Just hope you never need to spend more than three at a time... Ian From orcinaspacesuit@h... Fri May 02 16:50:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: orcinaspacesuit@h... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 23:50:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 48041 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 23:50:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 23:50:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.24) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 23:50:52 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 May 2003 16:50:52 -0700 Received: from 130.184.174.194 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 May 2003 23:50:51 GMT X-Originating-Email: [orcinaspacesuit@h...] To: nomicmarket@n... Cc: spoon-discuss@n..., thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:50:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2003 23:50:52.0221 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA104ED0:01C31105] From: "Orc In A Spacesuit" X-Originating-IP: [130.184.174.194] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public This message is going to B, Market, and Thermo, and first is an attempt to standardize things a bit: I think that it would be a good thing if you send emails regarding just the Market itself just to the Market list, and those emails that deal with a particular Nomic's interaction with the Market just to that Nomic's list and the Market. Only major things that affect all involved should be broadcast to all three. Personally, I'm getting lots of double-posts because I'm subscribed to B as well as the Market. And I'm sure that Thermo doesn't need to know the details of how B's stuff is going, or vica versa. And there may be some players, especially those who don't devote as much time to playing, who aren't real concerned with events in the Market except as they directly apply to home. If they want to look into it, they can check the archives. With that out of the way, here's an idea for reworking the Market: Rather than the Market simply declaring things that happen in other Nomics, and trying to interpert them, and trying to dictate specifics, I think the Market should be more of a standardized communication device, and each Nomic should handle its own creation and destruction based on that communication. Here's what I suggest: First, before I get into the meat of this, there be a standard way that the Market looks at objects. I'm thinking that each object have a list of Properties, which are named variables like "Name", "Charm", "Mass", "Text", etc; and a list of Attributes, like "Fuzzy" or "Pink" or "Wet". Nothing else; these two simple lists will be all that gets communicated between the Market and the different Nomics. To establish a baseline, there should be one required Property, which is Class, and can be Gnome or Coin or Kudo or Big Stick or whatever. And to keep a good record of things, another property could be assigned and kept track of by the Market; a TransactionID or something, that the individual Nomics can largely ignore. Now into the important part. I suggest things work like this: When someone goes to trade something, eir Nomic sends an Event to the Market, with the standardized object info and the Traders involved. This event doesn't need to be a seperate email or anything, and once it's set up, the event can just be assumed to happen. The Market then holds that info, and should the intended recipient accept, the Market sends that objetct's info to the recipient's home Nomic, and sends an Event to the sender's home Nomic that the object was given, and the sender's Nomic takes care of destruction. Should a player revoke an offer, or the offered object cease to be offerable (was destroyed, or the sender lost it, or something), the sender's home Nomic sends an Event to the Market, saying that the trade was aborted. All this can be simply what's written out, a single email to both lists from each Trader should take care of everything. Just have the Events written out behind the scenes, so everything works out smoothly. Here's a list of needed events: *object* = the object's full list of Properties and Attributes, _without_ a TransactionID *objectID* = the object's full list of Properties and Attributes, _with_ a TransactionID PlayerOffersObject(*object*,sender,receiver) Sent by senders's Nomic to Market. Upon receiving this, the Market assigns it a TransactionID and sends the next event: MarketNotifiesReceiver(*objectID*,receiver) Sent by the Market to the receiver's Nomic. This is so the receiver's Nomic can analyze the object and determine if the reciever may accept it. If e can and e does, the Nomic sends the next event: PlayerAcceptsObject(TransactionID) Sent by the receiver's Nomic to the Market. If the object is still being offered, the transaction concludes, and the Market sends the next event: TransactionCompleted(TransactionID) Sent by the Market to both the sender's and receiver's Nomics. Signals completion, and both Nomics take care of destruction/creation in the approprate player's possession. OfferRevoked(TransactionID) Sent by the sender's Nomic to the Market. Indicated the object is no longer being offered. After this, any Accept events for the tranaction will have no effect. Hmm... there should be an event to tell the home market what the TransactionID is, or maybe that communication could be a part of the Offer event. Other events could be made as well, such as PlayerRefusesObject, but such really isn't necessary, as the players involved can just communicate. Finally, I think that keeping track of, or actually communicating, all the Events would be a royal pain. So we should just assume they happen when we do the stuff, and actually track through the stuff only when needed. Orc in a Spacesuit _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ragnarok@p... Fri May 02 16:58:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 23:58:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 39180 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 23:58:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 23:58:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 23:58:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A63B196302A2; Fri, 02 May 2003 19:58:51 -0400 To: Cc: Subject: RE: [Nomicmarket] (no subject) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:58:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Orc, I really love your ideas. I have no idea how to actually write them in the context of Thermo, so I hereby beg you to figure it out and submit them as a Registration Proposal. From ragnarok@p... Fri May 02 17:00:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 00:00:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 5148 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 00:00:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 00:00:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 00:00:11 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6897AF0186; Fri, 02 May 2003 20:00:09 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning. Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:00:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1838.159.28.160.34.1051916880.squirrel@w...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>>Okay, first, in the spirit of fairness, I'll allow you te rescind that >>> last >> one if you want. >>>Remember, that these sentences will be written into rules *as is* if >> they're found TRUE. Do you >>>really want a rule that says specifically and precisely how many Coins >>> you >> have? >> >> Whoops. No. Thank you for your forgiveness, o munificent stenographer. >> Number five is withdrawn. >Actually, that could be useful for you to have. Spend a coin and you'll >still >have three. Yah, but I'm planning to be *much* richer than that in a bit... From drduck@u... Fri May 02 17:23:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 00:23:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 36417 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 00:23:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 00:23:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 00:23:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 30075 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 00:23:24 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 00:23:24 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h430NOV09390; Fri, 2 May 2003 17:23:24 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EB30CE4.799F186D@u...> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:27:16 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Cc: nomicmarket@n..., spoon-discuss@n... Subject: Re: [Thermo] (unknown) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Orc In A Spacesuit wrote: > This message is going to B, Market, and Thermo, and first is an attempt to standardize things > a bit: > > I think that it would be a good thing if you send emails regarding just the Market itself just > to the Market list, and those emails that deal with a > particular Nomic's interaction with the Market just to that Nomic's list and the Market. Only > major things that affect all involved should be broadcast > to all three. Personally, I'm getting lots of double-posts because I'm subscribed to B as > well as the Market. And I'm sure that Thermo doesn't > need to know the details of how B's stuff is going, or vica versa. And there may be some > players, especially those who don't devote as much time to > playing, who aren't real concerned with events in the Market except as they directly apply to > home. If they want to look into it, they can check the > archives. > > With that out of the way, here's an idea for reworking the Market: > > Rather than the Market simply declaring things that happen in other Nomics, and trying to > interpert them, and trying to dictate specifics, I think the > Market should be more of a standardized communication device, and each Nomicshould handle its > own creation and destruction based on that communication. > Here's what I suggest: > > First, before I get into the meat of this, there be a standard way that the Market looks at > objects. I'm thinking that each object have a list of > Properties, which are named variables like "Name", "Charm", "Mass", "Text", etc; and a list of > Attributes, like "Fuzzy" or "Pink" or "Wet". Nothing > else; these two simple lists will be all that gets communicated between the Market and the > different Nomics. To establish a baseline, there should be > one required Property, which is Class, and can be Gnome or Coin or Kudo or Big Stick or > whatever. And to keep a good record of things, another > property could be assigned and kept track of by the Market; a TransactionID or something, that > the individual Nomics can largely ignore. > > Now into the important part. I suggest things work like this: > When someone goes to trade something, eir Nomic sends an Event to the Market, with the > standardized object info and the Traders involved. This > event doesn't need to be a seperate email or anything, and once it's set up, the event can > just be assumed to happen. The Market then holds that info, > and should the intended recipient accept, the Market sends that objetct's info to the > recipient's home Nomic, and sends an Event to the sender's home > Nomic that the object was given, and the sender's Nomic takes care of destruction. > Should a player revoke an offer, or the offered object cease to be offerable (was destroyed, > or the sender lost it, or something), the sender's home > Nomic sends an Event to the Market, saying that the trade was aborted. > > All this can be simply what's written out, a single email to both lists from each Trader > should take care of everything. Just have the Events written > out behind the scenes, so everything works out smoothly. Here's a list of needed events: > > *object* = the object's full list of Properties and Attributes, _without_ a TransactionID > *objectID* = the object's full list of Properties and Attributes, _with_ a TransactionID > > PlayerOffersObject(*object*,sender,receiver) > Sent by senders's Nomic to Market. Upon receiving this, the Market assigns it a TransactionID > and sends the next event: > > MarketNotifiesReceiver(*objectID*,receiver) > Sent by the Market to the receiver's Nomic. This is so the receiver's Nomic can analyze the > object and determine if the reciever may accept it. If e can and e does, the Nomic sends the > next event: > > PlayerAcceptsObject(TransactionID) > Sent by the receiver's Nomic to the Market. If the object is still being offered, the > transaction concludes, and the Market sends the next event: > > TransactionCompleted(TransactionID) > Sent by the Market to both the sender's and receiver's Nomics. Signals completion, and both > Nomics take care of destruction/creation in the approprate player's possession. > > OfferRevoked(TransactionID) > Sent by the sender's Nomic to the Market. Indicated the object is no longer being offered. > After this, any Accept events for the tranaction will have no effect. > > Hmm... there should be an event to tell the home market what the > TransactionID is, or maybe that communication could be a part of the Offer > event. Other events could be made as well, such as PlayerRefusesObject, but > such really isn't necessary, as the players involved can just communicate. > > Finally, I think that keeping track of, or actually communicating, all the > Events would be a royal pain. So we should just assume they happen when we > do the stuff, and actually track through the stuff only when needed. > > Orc in a Spacesuit > A lot of this is what I was thinking the Home Nomic sections of the Market Nomic's ruleset were for, and why I thought that each individual Nomic needed a set of rules for "prepping" eir things for introduction into the Market. Let me give an example sequence: 1) I declare that I'm going to market. 2) The Thermo ruleset, says that all my Thermo::Player possessions then enter a state known as "At the Market". [These rules need to be defined] 3) The Thermo specific sub-ruleset of the Market examines my Thermo::Player's possessions, and establishes appropriate objects in the possession of my Market::Trader self. [These rules also need to be defined] 4) My Market:Trader self trades a Coin for, say, 1,000 BNS. 5) I declare that I'm leaving the Market. 6) The Thermo ruleset examines my Market::Trader's possessions, compares that with what my Thermo::Player "At the Market" possesions are, and then creates and destroys things within Thermo as appropriate. [More rules needing to be defined] The equivalent set of actions could happen for a B Nomic Player. Essentially both games (a home Nomic, and the Market) need some sort of synchronization rules. You're message passing somewhat does this, but it isn't going to function very well between our two Nomics at present, as, as far as I understand things, none of B's objects can exist within Thermo, and what few object types Thermo has might not be creatable within B (I don't know for sure), thus no reason to trade. Thus what we need is a medium for exchange, the problem as I see it is figuring this out. From drduck@u... Fri May 02 18:25:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 01:25:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 63179 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 01:25:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 01:25:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 01:25:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 31798 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 01:25:44 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 01:25:44 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h431PiP30728 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 18:25:44 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB31B82.25C29ED3@u...> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:29:38 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] proposal References: <33640.159.28.230.16.1051814926.squirrel@w...> <200305011632.24944.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 01 May 2003 02:48 pm, Ian Kelly wrote: > > > > Destroy rule 11.0 and replace it with a new rule 11.0 with the text "Any > > person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For > > Judgement." > > > > Create two coins in the possession of random players. > > > > Destroy this proposal. > > > YES bd, should I be considering this to be a FOR vote? From orcinaspacesuit@h... Fri May 02 19:12:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: orcinaspacesuit@h... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 02:12:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 46299 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 02:12:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 02:12:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.21) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 02:12:07 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:07 -0700 Received: from 130.184.174.194 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 May 2003 02:12:06 GMT X-Originating-Email: [orcinaspacesuit@h...] To: nomicmarket@n... Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] (unknown) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 21:12:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 May 2003 02:12:07.0405 (UTC) FILETIME=[65AAC1D0:01C31119] From: "Orc In A Spacesuit" X-Originating-IP: [130.184.174.194] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public >From: Doctor Ducker >A lot of this is what I was thinking the Home Nomic sections of the Market >Nomic's ruleset were for, and why I thought that each individual Nomic >needed a set of rules for "prepping" eir things for introduction into the >Market. > >Let me give an example sequence: > >1) I declare that I'm going to market. >2) The Thermo ruleset, says that all my Thermo::Player possessions then >enter a state known as >"At the Market". [These rules need to be defined] >3) The Thermo specific sub-ruleset of the Market examines my >Thermo::Player's possessions, and establishes appropriate objects in the >possession of my Market::Trader self. [These rules also >need to be defined] >4) My Market:Trader self trades a Coin for, say, 1,000 BNS. >5) I declare that I'm leaving the Market. >6) The Thermo ruleset examines my Market::Trader's possessions, compares >that with what my >Thermo::Player "At the Market" possesions are, and then creates and >destroys things within Thermo as appropriate. [More rules needing to be >defined] > >The equivalent set of actions could happen for a B Nomic Player. > >Essentially both games (a home Nomic, and the Market) need some sort of >synchronization rules. >You're message passing somewhat does this, but it isn't going to function >very well between our two Nomics at present, as, as far as I understand >things, none of B's objects can exist within Thermo, and what few object >types Thermo has might not be creatable within B (I don't know for sure), >thus no reason to trade. Thus what we need is a medium for exchange, the >problem as I see it is figuring this out. I think that we're envisioning the Market in two very different ways. You're seeing it as a place that people can sent their items off to removing them from their home game for a bit, then come back with a different set. I see it as a connection point, and once a connection is made from both sides, each Nomic instantly destroys/creates. But until the actual giving takes place, the item fully exists and functions in its home Nomic. As for compatability, in Thermo you could set your rules up to be something like this: When someone tries to give a Thing away, Thermo sends an event, with the object having the Class of what the Thing is in Thermo (Coin, Kudo, Rule, etc), and a Text if it its a rule or proposal. And a Description if it's a Hot Potato. Should the transaction complete, that Thing is then destroyed in Thermo. The very simplist way to receive _any_ object would be to simply, upon transaction completion, ignore any of the specifics of the object as sent from the Market, and simply create a Coin in the receiver's possession. >From that base, you could expand, saying that the receiver gets a Coin, unless the Class of the object sent from the Market is a Kudo, in which case a Kudu is created in eir possession instead. And any other properties sent by the Market, such as Color of the Kudo, can be simply ignored. This example is assuming that Kudos still are a part of the Thermo rules. You can keep expanding, making a provision where received Hot Potatoes result in Hot Potatoes being created in the receiver's possession, with any Description sent by the Market. And the do same for Rules and Proposals. To keep expanding on this, you could change the rule that says "Rules, players, proposals, offices, coins, and The Bank are things." Change it up completly, so that you don't have to list every possibility, and instead have Things come into existance as specified by the ruleset without the list. Maybe require everything to have a Type (like Coin or Office or whatever), so everything still makes sense. That way, players could have anything, but would have to get rules that make those Things useful, otherwise they'll just be fluff. Finally, you could have Things get the Properties and Attributes described in the Event from the Market. A lot of stuff would be completly useless at first. But rules for specific items can be made, and rules for groups of items could be made. Maybe you could make a special subset of rules for anything with the Attribute "Grid Object", which most of the stuff from B will have. Finally, another consideration for Thermo: I think it would be cool if the Conservation of Mass rule applied to trades, where you have to destroy something (either via trading something off, or otherwise) in order to receive something. I'm considering submitting this as a Registration prop, as Craig suggested. But I'm not sure I will, you guys go ahead and see what you can do, don't wait on me. Orc in a Spacesuit _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From drduck@u... Fri May 02 20:53:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 03:53:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 65598 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 03:53:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 03:53:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 03:53:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 22001 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 03:53:49 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 03:53:49 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h433rn606264 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 20:53:49 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EB33E3A.51EC831F@u...> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:57:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Various CFJ Assignments] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Dice server wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker > Rolls also sent to: > ragnarok@p... > thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > > # --------------------------------------- > # 1 - bd > # 2 - Dr Ducker > # 3 - Josh > # 4 - unlin_e > # --------------------------------------- > # Each CFJ will be assigned in order > # 1) There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the > # 2) Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. > # 3) Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to > # 4) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the > # 5) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the > # --------------------------------------- > > No. of sides on every die: 4 > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > No. of dice rolls requested: 5 > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > 3 > 2 > 2 > 4 > 4 > > Information on the dice server: > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > The dice server is provided by: > > Shadow Island Games > http://www.pbm.com/ > > Original message follows: > > Return-Path: > > Delivered-To: dice@p... > > Received: (qmail 954 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 01:36:56 -0000 > > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 01:36:56 -0000 > > Received: (qmail 1737 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 01:36:55 -0000 > > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 01:36:55 -0000 > > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h431atP05536 > > for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 18:36:55 -0700 > > X-envelope-info: > > Sender: drduck@s... > > Message-ID: <3EB31E21.BDAF04BC@u...> > > Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:40:49 -0700 > > From: Doctor Ducker > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: Dice Server > > Subject: Various CFJ assignments > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > #T Various CFJ Assignments > > #P ragnarok@p... > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > > #S 4 > > #D 1 > > #R 5 > > #L 1 > > #C --------------------------------------- > > #C 1 - bd > > #C 2 - Dr Ducker > > #C 3 - Josh > > #C 4 - unlin_e > > #C --------------------------------------- > > #C Each CFJ will be assigned in order > > #C 1) There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the > > Nomic Market. > > #C 2) Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. > > > > #C 3) Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to > > the submission of this CFJ. > > #C 4) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the > > creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the > > Market. > > #C 5) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the > > creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of Thermo. > > #C --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.3ia > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBPrMdOD8NitsTFjcVAQFVhwQAtUpgaLbL7ZEBqtKYrN21ZgYtCiMgJ3mN > eZCMJXg2dkEgsEuSKZr4MywsUrweknAn9o/+NMpA88JSiXSZhV2IMbST7bITdNGy > WuBRAWV9A1Lc/PaYRlLcfPTI8gZbVp/RxEWKXO1gmj5f/R36JAeDmXkzbIkxvKo1 > bwZz6HMU7II= > =6kuK > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- That means the assignments are as follows: 1) There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. Assigned to: Josh 2) Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. Assigned to: Dr Ducker 3) Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. Assigned to: Dr Ducker 4) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. Assigned to: unlin_e 5) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of Thermo. Assigned to: unlin_e P.S. I still can't figure out why the dice server can't send these things strioght to the list. From ragnarok@p... Sat May 03 04:24:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 11:24:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 51905 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 11:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 11:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 11:24:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A704B601BE; Sat, 03 May 2003 07:24:52 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] [Fwd: Various CFJ Assignments] Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 07:24:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB33E3A.51EC831F@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >P.S. I still can't figure out why the dice server can't send these things strioght to >the list. I got it from the server, so I think it is. From drduck@u... Sat May 03 09:35:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 16:35:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 96935 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 16:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 16:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 16:34:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 19449 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 16:34:55 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 16:34:55 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h43GYst14689 for ; Sat, 3 May 2003 09:34:54 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB3F0A9.9E543CAB@u...> Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 09:39:06 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Various CFJ Assignments] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >P.S. I still can't figure out why the dice server can't send these things > strioght to > >the list. > > I got it from the server, so I think it is. > No, that's cuz I've started having the dice server also send to the submitter of the CFJs. From bdonlan@b... Sat May 03 11:55:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 18:55:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 39270 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 18:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 18:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 18:54:59 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3DA2C14E128; Sat, 3 May 2003 14:54:56 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] proposal Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 14:54:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <33640.159.28.230.16.1051814926.squirrel@w...> <200305011632.24944.bdonlan@b...> <3EB31B82.25C29ED3@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EB31B82.25C29ED3@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305031454.56571.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 02 May 2003 09:29 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday 01 May 2003 02:48 pm, Ian Kelly wrote: > > > > > > Destroy rule 11.0 and replace it with a new rule 11.0 with the text > > > "Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For > > > Judgement." > > > > > > Create two coins in the possession of random players. > > > > > > Destroy this proposal. > > > > > > > YES > > bd, should I be considering this to be a FOR vote? Er, right, FOR. :/ - --=20 bd You give me space to belong to myself yet without separating me=20 from your own life. May it all turn out to your happiness. -- Goethe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+tBCAx533NjVSos4RAh2qAJ9bf9l7c0B7rwPyYh6YNklbVmd35gCfUbh5 OMTUGUteJCi7yxmLW5q7ihY=3D =3DgWcs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Sat May 03 14:27:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 21:27:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 62477 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 21:27:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 21:27:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 21:27:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 31165 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 21:27:26 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 May 2003 21:27:26 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h43LRQ809332 for ; Sat, 3 May 2003 14:27:26 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB4353C.940A9C65@u...> Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:31:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Various CFJ Assignments] References: <3EB33E3A.51EC831F@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > 1) There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. > Assigned to: Josh While having no weight of law, I would suggest to Josh, that since rule 0.5 has passed, this is trivially TRUE. > 2) Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. > Assigned to: Dr Ducker First, for reference, the following rules: 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. I will consider this in two distinct portions: First, if considered as the ruleset currently stands, and because there are no prohibitions against retroactive effects, this portion is trivially true. Second, the act referred to by "entered the Market", if it occurred, did so before rule 0.5 was part of the ruleset. Therefore, if we consider this in the absence of said rule, we must consider how the other rules would apply, and it appears that only rules 4.4 and 6.5 have any potential effect. Since there are no portions of the ruleset, aside from 0.5, which in any way refer to "enter[ing] the Market", it is trivial to recognize that there are no direct prohibitions, and thus the needs of rule 4.4 are satisfied. Which means we only have to answer the question of whether "enter[ing] the Market" alters the gamestate or not, in order to determine this judgement. If it did alter the gamestate, then it is trivially false, and if not, then trivially true. I contend that as the ruleset currently stands (with or without 0.5), there is no alteration of the gamestate which occurs simply by "enter[ing] the Market", note that some of Craig's other potential "actions" "within the Market" could potentially have gamestate altering concepts, but not es simple entrance to it. Thus, this portion is also true. I, thus, Judge this CFJ to be TRUE. > 3) Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to the submission of > this CFJ. > Assigned to: Dr Ducker I am somewhat at a loss as to how I could possibly make an assesment of what has transpired within another game. However, considering that this would be written into the Thermo ruleset, were I to find it true, I must therefore judge this CFJ to be FALSE. I would also like to suggest to unlin_e, that e reach a similar conclusion regarding 4, below. > 4) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the > Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. > Assigned to: unlin_e > 5) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the > Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of Thermo. > Assigned to: unlin_e Again, while having no weight of law, I would suggest to unlin_e, that e find 5 to be FALSE, as there are no provisions within the ruleset which allow the arbitray destruction of Things, thus according to rule 6.5, this would not be allowed. From cortex@n... Sat May 03 16:56:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 23:56:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 12475 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 23:56:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 23:56:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 23:56:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 4930 invoked by uid 1006); 3 May 2003 23:56:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:56:50 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Various CFJ Assignments] Message-ID: <20030503195649.A4906@a...> References: <3EB33E3A.51EC831F@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EB33E3A.51EC831F@u...>; from drduck@u... on Fri, May 02, 2003 at 08:57:46PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 08:57:46PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > > That means the assignments are as follows: > 1) There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic > Market. > Assigned to: Josh So far as I can tell, this is both implicitly and explicitly TRUE. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From unlin_e@y... Mon May 05 08:41:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 15:41:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 22697 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 15:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 15:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11401.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.231) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 15:41:53 -0000 Message-ID: <20030505154153.23331.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:41:53 PDT Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] [Fwd: Various CFJ Assignments] To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3EB4353C.940A9C65@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Doctor Ducker wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > > 1) There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the > Nomic Market. > > Assigned to: Josh > > While having no weight of law, I would suggest to Josh, that since rule 0.5 > has passed, this is > trivially TRUE. > > > 2) Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this > CFJ. > > Assigned to: Dr Ducker > > First, for reference, the following rules: > 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. > 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. > 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. > > I will consider this in two distinct portions: > > First, if considered as the ruleset currently stands, and because there are > no prohibitions > against retroactive effects, this portion is trivially true. > > Second, the act referred to by "entered the Market", if it occurred, did so > before rule 0.5 was > part of the ruleset. Therefore, if we consider this in the absence of said > rule, we must > consider how the other rules would apply, and it appears that only rules 4.4 > and 6.5 have any > potential effect. Since there are no portions of the ruleset, aside from > 0.5, which in any way > refer to "enter[ing] the Market", it is trivial to recognize that there are > no direct > prohibitions, and thus the needs of rule 4.4 are satisfied. Which means we > only have to answer > the question of whether "enter[ing] the Market" alters the gamestate or not, > in order to > determine this judgement. If it did alter the gamestate, then it is > trivially false, and if > not, then trivially true. > I contend that as the ruleset currently stands (with or without 0.5), there > is no alteration of > the gamestate which occurs simply by "enter[ing] the Market", note that some > of Craig's other > potential "actions" "within the Market" could potentially have gamestate > altering concepts, but > not es simple entrance to it. Thus, this portion is also true. > > I, thus, Judge this CFJ to be TRUE. > > > 3) Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to > the submission of > > this CFJ. > > Assigned to: Dr Ducker > > I am somewhat at a loss as to how I could possibly make an assesment of what > has transpired > within another game. However, considering that this would be written into > the Thermo ruleset, > were I to find it true, I must therefore judge this CFJ to be FALSE. > > I would also like to suggest to unlin_e, that e reach a similar conclusion > regarding 4, below. > > 4) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after > the creation of the > > Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. > > Assigned to: unlin_e > > 5) For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after > the creation of the > > Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of Thermo. > > Assigned to: unlin_e > > Again, while having no weight of law, I would suggest to unlin_e, that e find > 5 to be FALSE, as > there are no provisions within the ruleset which allow the arbitray > destruction of Things, thus > according to rule 6.5, this would not be allowed. > I think your analysis is perfectly reasonable, and based on precedent of your judgement of 2, I judge 4 TRUE and 5 to be false. 4 does not "alter the gamestate" and 5 does. -unlin_e __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Mon May 05 13:49:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 20:49:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 51360 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 20:49:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 20:49:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 20:49:55 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE7B22D1023A; Mon, 05 May 2003 16:50:03 -0400 To: Subject: Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:50:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may not vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any proposals or CFJs while Working. In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. Destroy this proposal. Rationale: Gives players a salary, for a price. Makes a Coin the normal weekly salary. If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. In the group headed DEREGISTRATION, create a rule 7.4 reading: Whenever a player lose posession of a Coin but has no Coins, that player deregisters. Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. Destroy this proposal. Rationale: Gives players an incentive to try to get Coins. Makes it pretty important to get a new Coin each week. From cortex@n... Mon May 05 16:08:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 23:08:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 19560 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 23:08:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 23:08:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 23:08:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 12442 invoked by uid 1006); 5 May 2003 23:08:08 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:08:08 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity Message-ID: <20030505190808.A12396@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, May 05, 2003 at 04:50:01PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 04:50:01PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These > rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. > > In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: > Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may not > vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any proposals > or CFJs while Working. > > In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: > Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last > time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. ^^^^^^^^^ possession > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > > Destroy this proposal. > Question: is that forty hours working consecutively, or forty hours in any number of smaller increments? That latter makes more sense in the spirit of things, but means a little accounting by someone. Other question: just to make sure I understand the way this is intended to work -- if I declare at time x that I am Working for 24 hours, does that mean I am doing so and am unable to interrupt said working? That is, until time x+24hours, I cannot stop Working? I sure hope so**, but I'd like to see if that's what you intended. **Otherwise, everybody would just declare emselves to be working for days and days, and then Stop Working to do their voting and proposing and promptly resume Working. Which would be silly. Also, I like this. > > If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These > rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. > > In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: > If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that ^^^^^^^^^ possession > player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. ^^^^^ A more pedantic player might try to exploit the arguable difference between the concepts of "losing possession" and "giving" in this sentence. I'm not gonna, though. > In the group headed DEREGISTRATION, create a rule 7.4 reading: > Whenever a player lose posession of a Coin but has no Coins, that player ^^^^ loses ^^^ possession > deregisters. > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > > Destroy this proposal. > ^^^^^^^ rent I also like this, assuming that the previous proto would be in place as well. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon May 05 16:20:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 23:20:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 67547 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 23:20:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 23:20:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 23:20:33 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1C93B9C0076; Mon, 05 May 2003 19:20:41 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:20:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030505190808.A12396@a...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: >> Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may not >> vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any proposals >> or CFJs while Working. >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: >> Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last >> time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. ^^^^^^^^^ possession >> >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >Question: is that forty hours working consecutively, or forty hours in >any number of smaller increments? That latter makes more sense in the >spirit of things, but means a little accounting by someone. The latter. >Other question: just to make sure I understand the way this is intended >to work -- if I declare at time x that I am Working for 24 hours, does >that mean I am doing so and am unable to interrupt said working? That >is, until time x+24hours, I cannot stop Working? >I sure hope so**, but I'd like to see if that's what you intended. I think you should be able to interrupt it, but I don't see that it matters (see below), so if anyone cares it can be otherwise. >**Otherwise, everybody would just declare emselves to be working for >days and days, and then Stop Working to do their voting and proposing >and promptly resume Working. Which would be silly. No, they couldn't stop to vote. You can't vote on a proposal that is submitted while you are Working, even if you aren't Working when you vote. >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: >> If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that > ^^^^^^^^^ possession >> player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. ^^^^^ > A more pedantic player might try to exploit the arguable difference > between the concepts of "losing possession" and "giving" in this sentence. > I'm not gonna, though. If I give you something, that is one way to lose possession of it. >I also like this, assuming that the previous proto would be in place as >well. I certainly hope nobody would vote for one but not the other. From drduck@u... Mon May 05 17:04:38 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 00:04:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 86386 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:04:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 00:04:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:04:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 2746 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:04:37 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:04:37 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4604Zb04794 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:04:35 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB6FD4B.2273B533@u...> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:09:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These > rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. > > In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: > Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may not > vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any proposals > or CFJs while Working. > > In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: > Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last > time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > > Destroy this proposal. > > > Rationale: Gives players a salary, for a price. Makes a Coin the normal > weekly salary. 1) You don't want to use rule #16.0, as that one is used within the "fixing everything" proposal. 2) I think when you used the term "caption" you meant "comment" 3) I think you're saying that I could declare myself "Working for the next 40 hours", on Monday morning, and then late Tuesday, early Wednesday, I'd cease to be working, get a coin, be able to cast my votes, create CFJs, and submit any proposals I might have. As soon as those messages had gone through, I could then again declare myself working again for 40 hours, and do it again... That's roughly 4 coins a week, with some annoyance, 3 coins easy. 4) "Working" doesn't actually do anything for the game, I think something more intrinsically game related, like proposal passage, would be a better way of dealing with things. 5) In a response to Josh Craig wrote: > No, they couldn't stop to vote. You can't vote on a proposal that is submitted while you are > Working, even if you aren't Working when you vote. This is an incredibly bad idea. First, while the proposal *could* be read that way, I wouldn't; Second, I at least, would then NEVER work, and take my chances with deregistration, etc. Voting is simply too important to throw it away like this. Any such proposal that actually was submitted I would be AGAINST, and would encourage anyone else to likewise vote AGAINST. > > If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These > rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. > > In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: > If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that > player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. > > In the group headed DEREGISTRATION, create a rule 7.4 reading: > Whenever a player lose posession of a Coin but has no Coins, that player > deregisters. > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > > Destroy this proposal. > > > Rationale: Gives players an incentive to try to get Coins. Makes it pretty > important to get a new Coin each week. I think this might be a twitch harsh, but can't really find much overall fault with it (other than the caption problem). I also think, perhaps we should define "crediting" and "debiting", so how about this: If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the comment "These rules define the economy." Create a rule 17.00, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading exactly as rule 6.8. Destroy rule 6.8 Create a rule 17.01, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: 'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "CREDIT X coins to the Player Y", or obvious variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be transferred from the possession of The Bank, into the possession of player Y, where X is a number or coins, and Y is the name of a player.' Create a rule 17.02, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: 'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "DEBIT X coins from the Player Y", or obvious variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be transferred from the possession of player Y, into the possession of The Bank, where X is a number or coins, and Y is the name of a player.' Create a rule 17.03, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: 'Whenever a player is required to DEBIT more coins than said player has from that player, that player is deregistered.' Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: 'If a player has gone a week without losing posession, either due to destruction, or debit, of any Coins, then DEBIT one Coin from that player.' Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: 'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT X coins to the player who submitted said proposal, where X is the number of Things destroyed within said proposal.' Destroy 4 other things... Destroy this proposal. Alternately rule 17.04 could read: 'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT 1 coin to the player who submitted said proposal.' Note that this encourages people to make proposals, and probably to destroy things. In the spirit of the game, it's easy to destroy coins (just propose it and succeed), but it's much harder to create them (only rule 2.1), however it's easy for players to get a hold of coins (from the Bank). Now we just need to make possession mean something. So how about this: If there is no group headed POSSESSION, create one with the comment "These rules define possession." Create a rule 4.90, in the group headed POSSESSION, reading: 'No action of a player may destroy any Thing which is not in the possession of said player.' Destroy rule 5.2 Create a rule 5.2, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: 'A proposal is considered to be pending, if it has been submitted to the official mailing list, has not been found to violate the Three Sacred Laws, does not attempt to destroy any Thing or Things which are not in the possession of the submitter of the proposal, and has not yet expired.' Create a rule 5.25, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: 'Any proposal which has been found to be in violation of the Three Sacred Laws, is destroyed.' Destroy 1 other things... Destroy this proposal. Rule 5.25, is just there to clean up some of the leftovers... From drduck@u... Mon May 05 17:29:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 00:29:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 26901 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:29:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 00:29:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:29:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 7138 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:29:17 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:29:17 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h460TH924849 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:29:17 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB70317.1AD2B6DD@u...> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:34:31 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity References: <3EB6FD4B.2273B533@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > > If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the comment "These rules define the > economy." > > Create a rule 17.00, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading exactly as rule 6.8. > > Destroy rule 6.8 > > Create a rule 17.01, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > 'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "CREDIT X coins to the Player Y", or obvious > variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be transferred from the > possession of The Bank, into the possession of player Y, where X is a number or coins, and Y is > the name of a player.' > > Create a rule 17.02, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > 'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "DEBIT X coins from the Player Y", or obvious > variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be transferred from the > possession of player Y, into the possession of The Bank, where X is a number or coins, and Y is > the name of a player.' > > Create a rule 17.03, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > 'Whenever a player is required to DEBIT more coins than said player has from that player, that > player is deregistered.' > > Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > 'If a player has gone a week without losing posession, either due to destruction, or debit, of > any Coins, then DEBIT one Coin from that player.' > > Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > 'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT X coins to the player who submitted said proposal, where X > is the number of Things destroyed within said proposal.' > Oops, that one should be 17.05. Good thing this is a proto-proposal. > > Destroy 4 other things... > > Destroy this proposal. > > > Alternately rule 17.04 could read: > 'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT 1 coin to the player who submitted said proposal.' > Again, that should be 17.05. > > Note that this encourages people to make proposals, and probably to destroy things. In the > spirit of the game, it's easy to destroy coins (just propose it and succeed), but it's much > harder to create them (only rule 2.1), however it's easy for players to get a hold of coins > (from the Bank). Now we just need to make possession mean something. So how about this: > From ragnarok@p... Mon May 05 17:30:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 00:30:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 2877 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:30:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 00:30:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:30:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A23B3CF20076; Mon, 05 May 2003 20:30:51 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:30:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB6FD4B.2273B533@u...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: >> Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may not >> vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any proposals >> or CFJs while Working. >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: >> Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last >> time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. >> >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >> >> Rationale: Gives players a salary, for a price. Makes a Coin the normal >> weekly salary. >1) You don't want to use rule #16.0, as that one is used within the "fixing everything" >proposal. Thank you. This is part of why we do the proto thing. >2) I think when you used the term "caption" you meant "comment" Yup. >3) I think you're saying that I could declare myself "Working for the next 40 hours", on Monday >morning, and then late Tuesday, early Wednesday, I'd cease to be working, get a coin, be able to >cast my votes, create CFJs, and submit any proposals I might have. As soon as those messages >had gone through, I could then again declare myself working again for 40 hours, and do it >again... That's roughly 4 coins a week, with some annoyance, 3 coins easy. No, it's roughly 4 Coins a week with MAJOR annoyance because you can't vote on most proposals. >4) "Working" doesn't actually do anything for the game, I think something more intrinsically >game related, like proposal passage, would be a better way of dealing with things. But that gives an advantage to more prolific proposers. Not that I care, I'm just tired of being the reactionary rightist for now. >5) In a response to Josh Craig wrote: >> No, they couldn't stop to vote. You can't vote on a proposal that is submitted while you are >> Working, even if you aren't Working when you vote. >This is an incredibly bad idea. First, while the proposal *could* be read that way, I >wouldn't; Second, I at least, would then NEVER work, and take my chances with deregistration, >etc. Voting is simply too important to throw it away like this. Any such proposal that >actually was submitted I would be AGAINST, and would encourage anyone else to likewise vote >AGAINST. That was the intent, for it to be read that way. I think whatever way there is to get Coins ought to have a price, so that you balance your need for Coins against any drawbacks. How would you suggest achieving that? >> >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: >> If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that >> player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. >> >> In the group headed DEREGISTRATION, create a rule 7.4 reading: >> Whenever a player lose posession of a Coin but has no Coins, that player >> deregisters. >> >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >> >> Rationale: Gives players an incentive to try to get Coins. Makes it pretty >> important to get a new Coin each week. >I think this might be a twitch harsh, but can't really find much overall fault with it (other >than the caption problem). Maybe one Coin every other week? You have to get benefit from your Thing for any sort of economy to work; paying rent does this well. We could always give richer players multiple votes, but I doubt that that will go over well with the commie pig camp. >I also think, perhaps we should define "crediting" and "debiting", so how about this: Good idea. > >If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the comment "These rules define the >economy." >Create a rule 17.00, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading exactly as rule 6.8. >Destroy rule 6.8 >Create a rule 17.01, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "CREDIT X coins to the Player Y", or obvious >variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be transferred from the >possession of The Bank, into the possession of player Y, where X is a number or coins, and Y is >the name of a player.' >Create a rule 17.02, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "DEBIT X coins from the Player Y", or obvious >variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be transferred from the >possession of player Y, into the possession of The Bank, where X is a number or coins, and Y is >the name of a player.' Seems good. >Create a rule 17.03, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >'Whenever a player is required to DEBIT more coins than said player has from that player, that >player is deregistered.' >Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >'If a player has gone a week without losing posession, either due to destruction, or debit, of >any Coins, then DEBIT one Coin from that player.' >Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT X coins to the player who submitted said proposal, where X >is the number of Things destroyed within said proposal.' That sounds good. It should replace the current rule that gives you one Coin for destroying three things. It also encourages moves like that happy-dance in ENSP, which might not be such a good idea. >Destroy 4 other things... Randomly, perhaps? Major chaos, anyone? >Destroy this proposal. > >Alternately rule 17.04 could read: >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT 1 coin to the player who submitted said proposal.' This variant sounds more likely to avoid meaningless destructions. >(from the Bank). Now we just need to make possession mean something. So how about this: That's the basic intent of any Nomic economy rules. > >If there is no group headed POSSESSION, create one with the comment "These rules define >possession." >Create a rule 4.90, in the group headed POSSESSION, reading: >'No action of a player may destroy any Thing which is not in the possession of said player.' Sounds good. But what if I consent to have my Thing destroyed, for a certain purpose that I support? >Destroy rule 5.2 >Create a rule 5.2, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: >'A proposal is considered to be pending, if it has been submitted to the official mailing list, >has not been found to violate the Three Sacred Laws, does not attempt to destroy any Thing or >Things which are not in the possession of the submitter of the proposal, and has not yet >expired.' Again, what if I want to let you destroy my Things? >Create a rule 5.25, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: >'Any proposal which has been found to be in violation of the Three Sacred Laws, is destroyed.' Sounds good. >Destroy 1 other things... Randomly, perhaps? Major chaos, anyone? Hello, and welcome to "It's The Mind." >Rule 5.25, is just there to clean up some of the leftovers... Rather than paying me to be a garbageman? From drduck@u... Mon May 05 17:40:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 00:40:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 16231 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:40:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 00:40:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:40:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 8926 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:40:00 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:40:00 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h460e0900556 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:40:00 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB70599.688D4418@u...> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:45:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >> > >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These > >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. > >> > >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: > >> Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may > not > >> vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any > proposals > >> or CFJs while Working. > >> > >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: > >> Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last > >> time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. > >> > >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > >> > >> Destroy this proposal. > >> > >> > >> Rationale: Gives players a salary, for a price. Makes a Coin the normal > >> weekly salary. > > >1) You don't want to use rule #16.0, as that one is used within the "fixing > everything" > >proposal. > > Thank you. This is part of why we do the proto thing. > > >2) I think when you used the term "caption" you meant "comment" > > Yup. > > >3) I think you're saying that I could declare myself "Working for the next > 40 hours", on Monday > >morning, and then late Tuesday, early Wednesday, I'd cease to be working, > get a coin, be able to > >cast my votes, create CFJs, and submit any proposals I might have. As soon > as those messages > >had gone through, I could then again declare myself working again for 40 > hours, and do it > >again... That's roughly 4 coins a week, with some annoyance, 3 coins easy. > > No, it's roughly 4 Coins a week with MAJOR annoyance because you can't vote > on most proposals. > > >4) "Working" doesn't actually do anything for the game, I think something > more intrinsically > >game related, like proposal passage, would be a better way of dealing with > things. > > But that gives an advantage to more prolific proposers. Not that I care, I'm > just tired of being the reactionary rightist for now. > > >5) In a response to Josh Craig wrote: > >> No, they couldn't stop to vote. You can't vote on a proposal that is > submitted while you are > >> Working, even if you aren't Working when you vote. > > >This is an incredibly bad idea. First, while the proposal *could* be read > that way, I > >wouldn't; Second, I at least, would then NEVER work, and take my chances > with deregistration, > >etc. Voting is simply too important to throw it away like this. Any such > proposal that > >actually was submitted I would be AGAINST, and would encourage anyone else > to likewise vote > >AGAINST. > > That was the intent, for it to be read that way. I think whatever way there > is to get Coins ought to have a price, so that you balance your need for > Coins against any drawbacks. How would you suggest achieving that? > > >> > >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These > >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. > >> > >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: > >> If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that > >> player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. > >> > >> In the group headed DEREGISTRATION, create a rule 7.4 reading: > >> Whenever a player lose posession of a Coin but has no Coins, that player > >> deregisters. > >> > >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > >> > >> Destroy this proposal. > >> > >> > >> Rationale: Gives players an incentive to try to get Coins. Makes it > pretty > >> important to get a new Coin each week. > > >I think this might be a twitch harsh, but can't really find much overall > fault with it (other > >than the caption problem). > > Maybe one Coin every other week? You have to get benefit from your Thing for > any sort of economy to work; paying rent does this well. We could always > give richer players multiple votes, but I doubt that that will go over well > with the commie pig camp. > > >I also think, perhaps we should define "crediting" and "debiting", so how > about this: > > Good idea. > > > > >If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the comment "These > rules define the > >economy." > > >Create a rule 17.00, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading exactly as rule > 6.8. > > >Destroy rule 6.8 > > >Create a rule 17.01, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > >'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "CREDIT X coins to the Player > Y", or obvious > >variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be > transferred from the > >possession of The Bank, into the possession of player Y, where X is a > number or coins, and Y is > >the name of a player.' > > >Create a rule 17.02, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > >'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "DEBIT X coins from the Player > Y", or obvious > >variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be > transferred from the > >possession of player Y, into the possession of The Bank, where X is a > number or coins, and Y is > >the name of a player.' > > Seems good. > > >Create a rule 17.03, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > >'Whenever a player is required to DEBIT more coins than said player has > from that player, that > >player is deregistered.' > > >Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > >'If a player has gone a week without losing posession, either due to > destruction, or debit, of > >any Coins, then DEBIT one Coin from that player.' > > >Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: > >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT X coins to the player who submitted > said proposal, where X > >is the number of Things destroyed within said proposal.' > > That sounds good. It should replace the current rule that gives you one Coin > for destroying three things. It also encourages moves like that happy-dance > in ENSP, which might not be such a good idea. > No, actually it shouldn't. Rule 2.1, becomes the only way to increase the number of coins in the game, this rule and others makes it more likely that the scarcity, and thus value, of coins goes up. > > >Destroy 4 other things... > > Randomly, perhaps? Major chaos, anyone? > No, just that this is a proto-proposal, so I don't have to figure out the details like this. > > >Destroy this proposal. > > > > >Alternately rule 17.04 could read: > >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT 1 coin to the player who submitted > said proposal.' > > This variant sounds more likely to avoid meaningless destructions. > Agreed, but more meaningless destruction will tend to increase the value of Things. > > >(from the Bank). Now we just need to make possession mean something. So > how about this: > > That's the basic intent of any Nomic economy rules. > > > > > >If there is no group headed POSSESSION, create one with the comment "These > rules define > >possession." > > >Create a rule 4.90, in the group headed POSSESSION, reading: > >'No action of a player may destroy any Thing which is not in the possession > of said player.' > > Sounds good. But what if I consent to have my Thing destroyed, for a certain > purpose that I support? > Give your Thing to the proposer. > > >Destroy rule 5.2 > > >Create a rule 5.2, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: > >'A proposal is considered to be pending, if it has been submitted to the > official mailing list, > >has not been found to violate the Three Sacred Laws, does not attempt to > destroy any Thing or > >Things which are not in the possession of the submitter of the proposal, > and has not yet > >expired.' > > Again, what if I want to let you destroy my Things? > see above. > > >Create a rule 5.25, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: > >'Any proposal which has been found to be in violation of the Three Sacred > Laws, is destroyed.' > > Sounds good. > > >Destroy 1 other things... > > Randomly, perhaps? Major chaos, anyone? > Hello, and welcome to "It's The Mind." > > >Rule 5.25, is just there to clean up some of the leftovers... > > Rather than paying me to be a garbageman? From ragnarok@p... Mon May 05 17:49:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 00:49:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 37211 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 00:48:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 00:48:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 00:48:24 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A655DC7023C; Mon, 05 May 2003 20:48:21 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:48:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB70599.688D4418@u...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >> >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These >> >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. >> >> >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.0 reading: >> >> Any player may declare that e is Working for any period of time, and may >> not >> >> vote on any proposals submitted while e is Working nor submit any >> proposals >> >> or CFJs while Working. >> >> >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.1 reading: >> >> Whenever a player has spent more than forty hours Working since the last >> >> time a Coin came into eir posession, the Bank will give em a Coin. >> >> >> >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. >> >> >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >> >> >> >> >> Rationale: Gives players a salary, for a price. Makes a Coin the normal >> >> weekly salary. >> >> >1) You don't want to use rule #16.0, as that one is used within the "fixing >> everything" >> >proposal. >> >> Thank you. This is part of why we do the proto thing. >> >> >2) I think when you used the term "caption" you meant "comment" >> >> Yup. >> >> >3) I think you're saying that I could declare myself "Working for the next >> 40 hours", on Monday >> >morning, and then late Tuesday, early Wednesday, I'd cease to be working, >> get a coin, be able to >> >cast my votes, create CFJs, and submit any proposals I might have. As soon >> as those messages >> >had gone through, I could then again declare myself working again for 40 >> hours, and do it >> >again... That's roughly 4 coins a week, with some annoyance, 3 coins easy. >> >> No, it's roughly 4 Coins a week with MAJOR annoyance because you can't vote >> on most proposals. >> >> >4) "Working" doesn't actually do anything for the game, I think something >> more intrinsically >> >game related, like proposal passage, would be a better way of dealing with >> things. >> >> But that gives an advantage to more prolific proposers. Not that I care, I'm >> just tired of being the reactionary rightist for now. >> >> >5) In a response to Josh Craig wrote: >> >> No, they couldn't stop to vote. You can't vote on a proposal that is >> submitted while you are >> >> Working, even if you aren't Working when you vote. >> >> >This is an incredibly bad idea. First, while the proposal *could* be read >> that way, I >> >wouldn't; Second, I at least, would then NEVER work, and take my chances >> with deregistration, >> >etc. Voting is simply too important to throw it away like this. Any such >> proposal that >> >actually was submitted I would be AGAINST, and would encourage anyone else >> to likewise vote >> >AGAINST. >> >> That was the intent, for it to be read that way. I think whatever way there >> is to get Coins ought to have a price, so that you balance your need for >> Coins against any drawbacks. How would you suggest achieving that? >> >> >> >> >> If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the caption "These >> >> rules define the economy." Put rule 6.8 into that group. >> >> >> >> In the group headed ECONOMICS, create a rule 16.2 reading: >> >> If a player has gone a week without losing posession of any Coins, that >> >> player automatically gives one Coin to the bank. >> >> >> >> In the group headed DEREGISTRATION, create a rule 7.4 reading: >> >> Whenever a player lose posession of a Coin but has no Coins, that player >> >> deregisters. >> >> >> >> Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. >> >> >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >> >> >> >> >> Rationale: Gives players an incentive to try to get Coins. Makes it >> pretty >> >> important to get a new Coin each week. >> >> >I think this might be a twitch harsh, but can't really find much overall >> fault with it (other >> >than the caption problem). >> >> Maybe one Coin every other week? You have to get benefit from your Thing for >> any sort of economy to work; paying rent does this well. We could always >> give richer players multiple votes, but I doubt that that will go over well >> with the commie pig camp. >> >> >I also think, perhaps we should define "crediting" and "debiting", so how >> about this: >> >> Good idea. >> >> > >> >If there is no group headed ECONOMICS, create one with the comment "These >> rules define the >> >economy." >> >> >Create a rule 17.00, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading exactly as rule >> 6.8. >> >> >Destroy rule 6.8 >> >> >Create a rule 17.01, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >> >'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "CREDIT X coins to the Player >> Y", or obvious >> >variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be >> transferred from the >> >possession of The Bank, into the possession of player Y, where X is a >> number or coins, and Y is >> >the name of a player.' >> >> >Create a rule 17.02, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >> >'A rule may make use of the standard phrase "DEBIT X coins from the Player >> Y", or obvious >> >variants, which will be interpretted to mean that X coins will be >> transferred from the >> >possession of player Y, into the possession of The Bank, where X is a >> number or coins, and Y is >> >the name of a player.' >> >> Seems good. >> >> >Create a rule 17.03, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >> >'Whenever a player is required to DEBIT more coins than said player has >> from that player, that >> >player is deregistered.' >> >> >Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >> >'If a player has gone a week without losing posession, either due to >> destruction, or debit, of >> >any Coins, then DEBIT one Coin from that player.' >> >> >Create a rule 17.04, in the group headed ECONOMICS, reading: >> >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT X coins to the player who submitted >> said proposal, where X >> >is the number of Things destroyed within said proposal.' >> >> That sounds good. It should replace the current rule that gives you one Coin >> for destroying three things. It also encourages moves like that happy-dance >> in ENSP, which might not be such a good idea. >No, actually it shouldn't. Rule 2.1, becomes the only way to increase the number of coins in >the game, this rule and others makes it more likely that the scarcity, and thus value, of coins >goes up. Ahh, deflation and economic death spirals. Goodness. Actually, new players may still create a Coin for everyone. >> >Destroy 4 other things... >> >> Randomly, perhaps? Major chaos, anyone? >No, just that this is a proto-proposal, so I don't have to figure out the details like this. Just a thought. >> >Destroy this proposal. >> > >> >> >Alternately rule 17.04 could read: >> >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT 1 coin to the player who submitted >> said proposal.' >> >> This variant sounds more likely to avoid meaningless destructions. >Agreed, but more meaningless destruction will tend to increase the value of Things. True. >> >(from the Bank). Now we just need to make possession mean something. So >> how about this: >> >> That's the basic intent of any Nomic economy rules. >> > >> >If there is no group headed POSSESSION, create one with the comment "These >> rules define >> >possession." >> >> >Create a rule 4.90, in the group headed POSSESSION, reading: >> >'No action of a player may destroy any Thing which is not in the possession >> of said player.' >> >> Sounds good. But what if I consent to have my Thing destroyed, for a certain >> purpose that I support? >Give your Thing to the proposer. Who may be swindling you. >> >Destroy rule 5.2 >> >> >Create a rule 5.2, in the group headed PROPOSALS, reading: >> >'A proposal is considered to be pending, if it has been submitted to the >> official mailing list, >> >has not been found to violate the Three Sacred Laws, does not attempt to >> destroy any Thing or >> >Things which are not in the possession of the submitter of the proposal, >> and has not yet >> >expired.' >> >> Again, what if I want to let you destroy my Things? >see above. see above. From drduck@u... Mon May 05 18:07:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 01:07:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 64789 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 01:07:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 01:07:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 01:07:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 18431 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 01:07:24 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 6 May 2003 01:07:24 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4617NM21592 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 18:07:23 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EB70C06.5D37A2@u...> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 18:12:38 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > No it shouldn't. Rule 2.1, becomes the only way to increase the number of coins in > > the game, this rule and others makes it more likely that the scarcity, and thus value, of > coins > > goes up. > > Ahh, deflation and economic death spirals. Goodness. > Actually, new players may still create a Coin for everyone. > Good point, I'd forgotten that. Course it would require eir magnanimity. > > > > >Destroy 4 other things... > > > > > > Randomly, perhaps? Major chaos, anyone? > > > No, just that this is a proto-proposal, so I don't have to figure out the details like this. > > Just a thought. > > > > >Destroy this proposal. > > > > > > > > > > >Alternately rule 17.04 could read: > > > >'When a proposal passes, then CREDIT 1 coin to the player who submitted > > > said proposal.' > > > > > > This variant sounds more likely to avoid meaningless destructions. > > > Agreed, but more meaningless destruction will tend to increase the value of Things. > > True. > > > > >(from the Bank). Now we just need to make possession mean something. So > > > how about this: > > > > > > That's the basic intent of any Nomic economy rules. > > > > > > > > > If there is no group headed POSSESSION, create one with the comment "These rules define > > > > possession." > > > > > > > Create a rule 4.90, in the group headed POSSESSION, reading: > > > > 'No action of a player may destroy any Thing which is not in the possession of said > player.' > > > > > > Sounds good. But what if I consent to have my Thing destroyed, for a certain > > > purpose that I support? > > > Give your Thing to the proposer. > > Who may be swindling you. > Consider it like this: The proposer creates a proposal which destroys 2 of eir coins, said proposal then passes, you then repay the proposer with a coin. We're a little light on players for this sort of thing to work all that well at the moment, but nobody would be getting swindled in the process. As another method, the proposal could read something like this: If, at the time of the passage of this proposal, the submitter of this proposal has received 2 coins from other players, then perform these 2 actions: 1) create a pending proposal, in the possession of the submitter of this proposal, with the text: "create 2 monkeys. destroy 2 of the submitters coins" 2) destroy this proposal. Although, I don't know if that would actually work with the language of rule 5.2 or not. We may, however, want to establish some sort of basic contract law, but that could get real complicated real fast. Not that there's anything wrong with that. From ragnarok@p... Mon May 05 18:19:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 01:19:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 49252 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 01:19:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 01:19:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 01:19:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADB5231C023A; Mon, 05 May 2003 21:19:49 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Two Protos to Boost Economic Activity Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:19:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB70C06.5D37A2@u...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > No it shouldn't. Rule 2.1, becomes the only way to increase the number of coins in >> > the game, this rule and others makes it more likely that the scarcity, and thus value, of >> coins >> > goes up. >> >> Ahh, deflation and economic death spirals. Goodness. >> Actually, new players may still create a Coin for everyone. >Good point, I'd forgotten that. Course it would require eir magnanimity. No, it would require there to be enough therms. >> > > > >> > > > If there is no group headed POSSESSION, create one with the comment "These rules define >> > > > possession." >> > > >> > > > Create a rule 4.90, in the group headed POSSESSION, reading: >> > > > 'No action of a player may destroy any Thing which is not in the possession of said >> player.' >> > > >> > > Sounds good. But what if I consent to have my Thing destroyed, for a certain >> > > purpose that I support? >> >> > Give your Thing to the proposer. >> >> Who may be swindling you. >Consider it like this: The proposer creates a proposal which destroys 2 of eir coins, said >proposal then passes, you then repay the proposer with a coin. We're a little light on players >for this sort of thing to work all that well at the moment, but nobody would be getting swindled >in the process. That works. >As another method, the proposal could read something like this: > >If, at the time of the passage of this proposal, the submitter of this proposal has received 2 >coins from other players, then perform these 2 actions: >1) create a pending proposal, in the possession of the submitter of this proposal, with the >text: >"create 2 monkeys. >destroy 2 of the submitters coins" >2) destroy this proposal. > >Although, I don't know if that would actually work with the language of rule 5.2 or not. I dunno. You could always CFJ it. >We may, however, want to establish some sort of basic contract law, but that could get real >complicated real fast. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's harder in Thermo for things to get too complicated too quickly. That's the beauty of the TSLs. From drduck@u... Fri May 09 00:39:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 9 May 2003 07:39:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 1456 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 07:39:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 May 2003 07:39:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2003 07:39:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 6911 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 07:39:14 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 9 May 2003 07:39:14 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h497dE522588 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 00:39:14 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EBB5CB8.E1EC67FF@u...> Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:46:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Potato of Displacement] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 So, Craig's got the first potato to actually be created... -------- Original Message -------- Received: from cmsmail05.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.5] by cmsmail05.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.05) with ESMTP id 964HeHwCZ0613M05; Thu, 08 May 2003 22:28:26 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail05.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Thu, 08 May 2003 22:28:25 GMT Received: (qmail 4503 invoked by uid 951); 8 May 2003 22:28:25 -0000 Date: 8 May 2003 22:28:25 -0000 Message-ID: <20030508222825.4502.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Potato of Displacement X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 964HeHwCZ0613M05 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # 1 - bd # 2 - Craig # 3 - Dr Ducker # 4 - Josh # 5 - unlin_e No. of sides on every die: 5 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 2 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 4481 invoked from network); 8 May 2003 22:28:19 -0000 > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 8 May 2003 22:28:19 -0000 > Received: (qmail 21097 invoked from network); 8 May 2003 22:28:18 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 May 2003 22:28:18 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h48MSIq18230 > for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:28:18 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Sender: drduck@s... > Message-ID: <3EBADB8D.50442DBC@u...> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:34:53 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: displacement > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #S 5 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #C 1 - bd > #C 2 - Craig > #C 3 - Dr Ducker > #C 4 - Josh > #C 5 - unlin_e > #T Potato of Displacement > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPrraCT8NitsTFjcVAQE/tgP5Ac6VCqRVLZWtc5hZsos64gfmKx8mVMby oL21VkvgBMK4cqnzRakeLo6wzIF4nqD+Gc8LxyA7z1h65CNW4JY1orqBa60RwVb7 8Z84dnv7/kdhWtIV+9JkTTKP7BJcYAJkDFilXAODr1IL79QVo9yIMgueT3bkivE2 421GKT+kNBo= =5nUR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Fri May 09 00:40:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 9 May 2003 07:40:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 3063 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 07:40:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 May 2003 07:40:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2003 07:40:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31854 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 07:40:01 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 9 May 2003 07:40:01 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h497e1522845 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 00:40:01 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EBB5CE8.EDD8A36F@u...> Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:46:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Ian's player Coins of Generosity] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 unlin_e is the proud owner of the two coins so generously created by Ian's registration proposal. -------- Original Message -------- Received: from cmsmail05.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.5] by cmsmail05.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.05) with ESMTP id 990HeiahJ0763M05; Fri, 09 May 2003 00:33:09 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail05.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Fri, 09 May 2003 00:33:09 GMT Received: (qmail 4954 invoked by uid 951); 9 May 2003 00:33:09 -0000 Date: 9 May 2003 00:33:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20030509003309.4953.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Ian's player Coins of Generosity X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 990HeiahJ0763M05 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # 1 - bd # 2 - Craig # 3 - Dr Ducker # 4 - Josh # 5 - unlin_e No. of sides on every die: 5 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 2 No. of rolls per line: 1 5 5 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 4930 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 00:33:07 -0000 > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 9 May 2003 00:33:07 -0000 > Received: (qmail 18593 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 00:33:06 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 9 May 2003 00:33:06 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h490X6624796 > for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 17:33:06 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Sender: drduck@s... > Message-ID: <3EBAF8D0.FF960720@u...> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:39:44 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: Coins > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #S 5 > #D 1 > #R 2 > #L 1 > #C 1 - bd > #C 2 - Craig > #C 3 - Dr Ducker > #C 4 - Josh > #C 5 - unlin_e > #T Ian's player Coins of Generosity > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPrr3RT8NitsTFjcVAQG6cwP+MCzegtMJR0160J142hxCpuI5UAqNphrq ZYSUCOB0vc9HAoTDH/Gp1J+VTWwJXCvOuI+VxNt46uWy1kp/MBkUWu5fWZ9EKF/C qSnFyVEgFeteHZyEQnTZwt2UHS9yL7Vcytxpe83tXXM9FHv1VYLwt942l7vTVz0N ce5Zs+WqCRY= =J4q2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Fri May 09 00:44:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 9 May 2003 07:44:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 80657 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 07:44:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 May 2003 07:44:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2003 07:44:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 7587 invoked from network); 9 May 2003 07:44:51 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 9 May 2003 07:44:51 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h497ioa07781 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 00:44:50 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EBB5E09.4511B653@u...> Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:51:37 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: A quick update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 A quick recap of what's happened this week: All current proposals have expired at this point. Two of them have failed, the rest passed. As a result Craig has recieved a shiny new coin, and a couple of rules have been destroyed/created. Also, the number of therms has gone up a bit, but... wait, Ian's (welcome to playerhood) registration proposal passing means everybody gets a coin, and the therms are at zero. I've been updating things as fast as I can, but it's still not done, and I'll be heading to bed pretty soon now, so I'll have to finish tomorrow. From drduck@u... Sun May 11 11:47:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 11 May 2003 18:47:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 51750 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2003 18:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:47:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 29597 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:47:22 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:47:22 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4BIlMp15317 for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 11:47:22 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EBE9C97.355A497F@u...> Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:55:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Ian has deregistered. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 As of Sat May 10, 2003 at 00:08, Ian Kelly has deregistered. One coin has been destroyed. One Proposal (#13) has been distributed randomly to Craig (the dice server email will be forwarded presently). From drduck@u... Sun May 11 11:48:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 11 May 2003 18:48:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 12510 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2003 18:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:48:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 14852 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:48:00 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:48:00 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4BIm0p15755 for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 11:48:00 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EBE9CBD.7F58C70B@u...> Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:55:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Ian Kelly's Proposal #13] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 This shows that Craig recieved Proposal #13 when Ian deregistered -------- Original Message -------- Received: from cmsmail05.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.5] by cmsmail05.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.05) with ESMTP id 739HekshS0676M05; Sun, 11 May 2003 18:33:44 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail05.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Sun, 11 May 2003 18:33:44 GMT Received: (qmail 7310 invoked by uid 951); 11 May 2003 18:33:44 -0000 Date: 11 May 2003 18:33:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20030511183344.7309.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Ian Kelly's Proposal #13 X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 739HekshS0676M05 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: # 1 - bd # 2 - Josh # 3 - unlin_e # 4 - Craig # 5 - Dr Ducker No. of sides on every die: 5 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 4 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 7239 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:33:31 -0000 > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:33:31 -0000 > Received: (qmail 12589 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:33:30 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:33:30 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4BIXUD05710 > for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 11:33:30 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Sender: drduck@s... > Message-ID: <3EBE9956.327706F@u...> > Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:41:26 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: Ian dereg > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #S 5 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #D 1 > #C 1 - bd > #C 2 - Josh > #C 3 - unlin_e > #C 4 - Craig > #C 5 - Dr Ducker > #T Ian Kelly's Proposal #13 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPr6XiD8NitsTFjcVAQHlzgP/fK465b6uHtNIGj1ovo4Hf0hlY5orL7RP mCAD6w8BsRq0slOFBq3MXbGuwfgk59/uslP+OY3tlQPL/4B86BOGVYnQz7C/TN/y NZRa4Y66TgJmbCi6xAoQdTLxX93AfO2TmBKdnpT3qrROuctHzVZ+203wHNmlA77i aMvF+ntKVUE= =j86M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Sun May 11 11:50:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 11 May 2003 18:50:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 56370 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:50:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2003 18:50:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:50:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 15198 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 18:50:01 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 18:50:01 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4BIo1p17519 for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 11:50:01 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EBE9D36.9C520456@u...> Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:57:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: bd has deregistered. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 As of Sat May 10, 2003 at 19:54, bd has deregistered. One coin has been destroyed. bd had no other possessions. From drduck@u... Sun May 11 16:21:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 11 May 2003 23:21:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 22701 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 23:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2003 23:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2003 23:21:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 6279 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 23:21:49 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 23:21:49 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4BNLno10861 for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 16:21:49 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EBEDCEF.E6B4F3DA@u...> Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:29:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Reassigning Judges take 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Create a rule 11.7 within the JUDGEMENT group which reads: "A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned." Create a rule 12.6 within the APPEALS group which reads: "An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned." Destroy Rule (4 pi). Create a rule 12.566 within the APPEALS group which reads: "The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. Append the text "Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties." to the Comment of the JUDGEMENT group. Append the text "Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties." to the Comment of the APPEALS group. Destroy the proposal "reassigning Judges". Destroy this proposal. I'm re-submitting this since there didn't seem to be any criticism of the rules in question, just the random coin destruction, which is no longer part of this version. From cortex@n... Sun May 11 16:33:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 11 May 2003 23:33:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 57050 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 23:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2003 23:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2003 23:33:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 7017 invoked by uid 1006); 11 May 2003 23:33:06 -0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:33:06 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Reassigning Judges take 2 Message-ID: <20030511193306.A7002@a...> References: <3EBEDCEF.E6B4F3DA@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EBEDCEF.E6B4F3DA@u...>; from drduck@u... on Sun, May 11, 2003 at 04:29:51PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, May 11, 2003 at 04:29:51PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > Right. FOR. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From drduck@u... Sun May 11 16:48:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 11 May 2003 23:48:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 96146 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 23:48:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2003 23:48:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2003 23:48:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 10741 invoked from network); 11 May 2003 23:48:52 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 May 2003 23:48:52 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4BNmq706457 for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 16:48:52 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EBEE347.30166E0@u...> Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:56:55 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Reassigning Judges take 2 References: <3EBEDCEF.E6B4F3DA@u...> <20030511193306.A7002@a...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 cortex wrote: > On Sun, May 11, 2003 at 04:29:51PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > > > > Right. FOR. > Oh, Yeah, I'm FOR it too. From ragnarok@p... Sun May 11 17:28:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 12 May 2003 00:28:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 70745 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 00:28:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 May 2003 00:28:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 May 2003 00:28:39 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAB25BE01FC; Sun, 11 May 2003 20:28:34 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Reassigning Judges take 2 Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:28:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EBEDCEF.E6B4F3DA@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I'm re-submitting this since there didn't seem to be any criticism of the rules >in question, just the random coin destruction, which is no longer part of this >version. FOR. From unlin_e@y... Sun May 11 18:45:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 12 May 2003 01:45:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 35689 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 01:45:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 May 2003 01:45:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11401.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.231) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 May 2003 01:45:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20030512014557.27748.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.27.44] by web11401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2003 18:45:57 PDT Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Reassigning Judges take 2 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20030511193306.A7002@a...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- cortex wrote: > On Sun, May 11, 2003 at 04:29:51PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > > > > Right. FOR. > > Josh unlin_e votes FOR. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From drduck@u... Mon May 12 15:48:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 12 May 2003 22:48:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 66978 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 22:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 May 2003 22:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 May 2003 22:35:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 7338 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 22:35:17 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 12 May 2003 22:35:17 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4CMZG806550 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 15:35:17 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EC023A2.463CD3E8@u...> Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:43:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Re-Assignment of CFJs From Cassie To Others Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 In accordance with our new rules regarding reassigning Judges when needed: There are five(5) CFJs with outstanding decisions pending: 7: AJs Cassie & unlin_e 8: Judge Cassie 9: Judge unlin_e 10: AJ Cassie 11: AJ Cassie In all but one of these Cassie had not rendered eir decision at the time of eir deregistration, consequently these need to be reassigned. CFJ #7, is reassigned to Josh as Appelate Justice, since e is the only elegible player. unlin_e, please also cast your decision so this CFJ can be finalized. CFJ #8, is assigned, via the dice server as included below, to Craig. Craig, Josh, and unlin_e were elegible. CFJ #9, is not subject to reassignment. unlin_e, please also cast your decision so this CFJ can be finalized. CFJ #10, is reassigned to unlin_e as Appelate Justice, since e is the only elegible player. CFJ #11, is reassigned to Josh as Appelate Justice, since e is the only elegible player. Included below is the dice server response with regard to CFJ #8, which was the only CFJ which needed randomness. -------- Original Message -------- Received: from cmsmail06.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.6] by cmsmail06.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.05) with ESMTP id 560HeLwVu1195M06; Mon, 12 May 2003 22:21:20 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail06.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Mon, 12 May 2003 22:21:20 GMT Received: (qmail 1411 invoked by uid 951); 12 May 2003 22:21:19 -0000 Date: 12 May 2003 22:21:19 -0000 Message-ID: <20030512222119.1410.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Re-Assignment of CFJ #8 From Cassie To: X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 560HeLwVu1195M06 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: # 1 - Craig # 2 - Josh # 3 - unlin_e No. of sides on every die: 3 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 1 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 1365 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 22:21:11 -0000 > Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.38) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 12 May 2003 22:21:11 -0000 > Received: (qmail 3991 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 22:21:11 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 12 May 2003 22:21:11 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4CMLA814408 > for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 15:21:10 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Sender: drduck@s... > Message-ID: <3EC02053.62C2BF98@u...> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:29:39 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) > X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: Reassignment of CFJ 8 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #S 3 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #T Re-Assignment of CFJ #8 From Cassie To: > #C 1 - Craig > #C 2 - Josh > #C 3 - unlin_e > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPsAeXz8NitsTFjcVAQFjZgQAiFlyz4RDZD93Fw1uHZXMnaMnjc2ArTJ5 71tv+np89BI+/rnQpRuS4gCz2hrnArmrRWNrtLfVnyK0pdIh/BOXyOPHJ1FKWPMI ad1NAHkNPFGJiX/QqPUcQselTSNAy+zCsRWnZ5fhRCV+Mvl98ZwrgDDEB1ui0MqX cWs2VTSWNFo= =/Ocu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Mon May 12 18:51:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 01:51:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 90925 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 01:51:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 01:51:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 01:51:49 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFB935300CE; Mon, 12 May 2003 21:51:53 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re-Assignment of CFJs From Cassie To Others Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:51:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EC023A2.463CD3E8@u...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >CFJ #8, is assigned, via the dice server as included below, to Craig. Craig, >Josh, and unlin_e were elegible. CFJ #7 is not materially different. It was judged false and appealed. My appelate judgement was TRUE, and for all the same reasons I judge CFJ #8 TRUE. I also note that this precedent should simplify the appeal on CFJ #7; if it doesn't there needs to be some fixing to the judicial system. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Tue May 13 04:35:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 58668 invoked by uid 7800); 13 May 2003 11:35:43 -0000 Date: 13 May 2003 11:35:43 -0000 Message-ID: <1052825743.188442986.21190.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ::: THERMODYNOMIC 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. Comment: ::: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. ::: SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. ::: THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. ::: THE RULESET 4 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. ::: PROPOSALS 5 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. 5.9 If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. ::: CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. ::: DEREGISTRATION 7 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. ::: REGISTRATION 8 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. ::: THINGS 9 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. ::: OFFICES 10 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. ::: JUDGEMENT 11 Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.01 A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. 11.7 A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: APPEALS 12 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. 12.566 The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. 12.6 An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: PAST JUDGEMENTS 13 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. 15.001 It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. Comment: ::: POTATOES 15 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. From ragnarok@p... Tue May 13 07:21:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 14:21:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 65074 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 14:21:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 14:21:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 14:21:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 May 2003 14:20:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:20:00 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Proposal: Salaries Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1251 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Create a rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than any other in that group but lower than the number of the next highest numbered rule. (Note that since between any two real numbers have between them an infinite number of other real numbers, all such are equivalent for our purposes.) The rule shall have the following text: Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. Create another rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than any other in that group but lower than the number of the next highest numbered rule. The rule shall have the text: Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. Create another rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than any other in that group but lower than the number of the next highest numbered rule. The rule shall have the text: Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. Destroy three Coins belonging to Craig. From ragnarok@p... Tue May 13 07:22:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 14:22:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 5905 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 14:22:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 14:22:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 14:22:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 May 2003 14:21:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:21:10 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Call for New Members Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 123 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Craig Daniel" X-Originating-IP: 66.162.207.82 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl This mailing list has thirteen subscribers. The game has ten players. Please, guys, write up some registration proposals. From drduck@u... Tue May 13 14:27:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 21:27:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 9737 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 21:27:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 21:27:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 21:27:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 32152 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 21:27:36 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 May 2003 21:27:36 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4DLRZY16396 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 14:27:36 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EC16560.E8196CE0@u...> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:36:32 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] File - ruleset.txt References: <1052825743.188442986.21190.m12@yahoogroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com wrote: > ::: THERMODYNOMIC > 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. Per rule 15 and the Potato in questions description, this induces the "Potato of Displacement" to go off. It is in the possession of Craig. It's description is: "Every time Yahoo automatically posts the ruleset, another randomly selected potato will be given to the holder of this potato, and this potato will be given to the prior holder." Which I interpret to mean that this Potato and another, randomly selected, Potato will exchange possessors. With the fact that there are no other Potatoes in existence, there seems to be a bit of ambiguity as to what occurs. I see that there are two possible ways of resolving this: 1) No change. A random selection amongst the one potato in existence, means that Craig exchanges Potatoes with emself. 2) No change. A random selection amongst the zero *other* Potatoes selects no one, therefore no exchange occurs. Since both ways end the same, it doesn't actually matter, but the ambiguity is still present, and may result in other difficulties later. From drduck@u... Tue May 13 14:44:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 21:44:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 39290 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 21:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 21:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 21:40:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 2410 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 21:40:06 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 May 2003 21:40:06 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4DLe5Y26643 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 14:40:05 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EC1684E.D2681A3E@u...> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:49:02 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Proposal: Salaries References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig Daniel wrote: > > Create a rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than any other in that group but > lower than the number of the next highest numbered rule. (Note that since between any two real > numbers have between them an infinite number of other real numbers, all such are equivalent > for our purposes.) The rule shall have the following text: > Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the > proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. > > Create another rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than any other in that group > but lower than the number of the next highest numbered rule. The rule shall have the text: > Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the > Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. > > Create another rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than any other in that group > but lower than the number of the next highest numbered rule. The rule shall have the text: > Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of > the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. > > Destroy three Coins belonging to Craig. > I cast my vote FOR this proposal. As a side note, these rules will be numbered 10.6, 10.7, 10.8 respectively, unless another proposal passes first which alters the validity of these numbers. From ragnarok@p... Tue May 13 14:56:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 21:56:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 9600 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 21:56:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 21:56:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 21:56:16 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA024B500B0; Tue, 13 May 2003 17:56:18 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Proposal: Salaries Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:56:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EC1684E.D2681A3E@u...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I cast my vote FOR this proposal. Oh, yeah. Me too. From ragnarok@p... Tue May 13 16:25:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 13 May 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 31055 invoked from network); 13 May 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2003 23:25:08 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AED76AD00C6; Tue, 13 May 2003 19:25:11 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ian has deregistered. Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:25:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EBE9C97.355A497F@u...> X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >As of Sat May 10, 2003 at 00:08, Ian Kelly has deregistered. Funny, I can't find any record of eir registration ever occuring. From drduck@u... Tue May 13 18:26:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 01:26:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 77271 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 01:26:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 01:26:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 01:26:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2003 01:24:51 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:24:48 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Ian has deregistered. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 641 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "ducker756" X-Originating-IP: 209.204.139.104 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, "Craig" wrote: > >As of Sat May 10, 2003 at 00:08, Ian Kelly has deregistered. > > Funny, I can't find any record of eir registration ever occuring. Prop 33 was Ian's second registration proposal. It passed on Thu May 8, 2003 at 7:48pm. Thus registering Ian. But, Ian's last message to the mailing-list occurred on Sat May 3, 2003 at 12:08am. Thus the deregistration. A brief existence within the game, no doubt, and it's true that didn't deal with the paperwork til Friday, but yup, unlin_e recieved the coins generated by prop #33, and we all got a coin according to rule 1.3. From ragnarok@p... Tue May 13 18:38:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 01:38:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 60291 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 01:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 01:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 01:38:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE315B100DE; Tue, 13 May 2003 21:38:57 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Ian has deregistered. Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:39:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >As of Sat May 10, 2003 at 00:08, Ian Kelly has deregistered. >> >> Funny, I can't find any record of eir registration ever occuring. >Prop 33 was Ian's second registration proposal. It passed on Thu May >8, 2003 at 7:48pm. Thus registering Ian. Ah. I hadn't noticed its passage. >But, Ian's last message to the mailing-list occurred on Sat May 3, >2003 at 12:08am. Thus the deregistration. Right. From nmccoy@o... Tue May 13 21:44:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 04:44:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 76540 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 04:44:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 04:44:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 04:44:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2003 04:44:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:44:06 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2102 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "psychicnathan" X-Originating-IP: 216.39.145.26 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan --- begin proposal --- 1. Create a Coin possesed by The Bank. 2. Destroy a Coin possessed by The Bank. 3. Restart from step 1 unless there are two more Therms than there are players. 4. Create rule 5.901 in the group PROPOSALS: "Disregard rules 5.91, 5.92, and 5.93, unless rule 1.1 says 'No proposal may be passed if its passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW.'." 5. Create rule 5.91 in the group PROPOSALS: "Any player may Support a pending proposal by stating the intent to Support that proposal and giving any number of Coins to The Bank." 6. Create rule 5.92 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal passes, that proposal causes all Coins that were given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to be destroyed." 7. Create rule 5.93 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal fails, return each Coin given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to its previous owner, unless that player has been destroyed, in which case assign that Coin to a random player." 8. If there are fewer than three Coins owned by The Bank, transfer ownership of a random Coin not owned by The Bank to The Bank and repeat step 8. 9. Destroy three Coins owned by The Bank. 10. Destroy this proposal. ---- end proposal ---- The purpose of this proposal is to avoid having to do weird stuff (like steps 8 and 9 in this proposal) to balance the number of Things, and instead allow players to contribute Coins to help balance a proposal they like. In case it wasn't obvious, once I'm registered I'm going to propose a substitution of rule 1.1, so that proposals which change the number of Things by an amount undetermined at the time of the submission can still be submitted. I'd also suggest that rule 2.1 be changed to read "If the enactment of a proposal decreases the number of Things by three or more, a Coin is created in the ownership of the person who submitted that proposal." I didn't want my registration to require a unanimous vote, so neither of these were included in my registration proposal. From nmccoy@o... Wed May 14 08:05:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 15:05:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 86478 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 15:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 15:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 15:05:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.119] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2003 15:04:04 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:04:01 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 522 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "psychicnathan" X-Originating-IP: 216.39.145.26 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, "psychicnathan" wrote: > 3. Restart from step 1 unless there are two more Therms than there are > players. Oops. My first message and I'm already making potential endless loops. Could someone make a Call For Judgement that this should be interpreted as "...unless there are at least two more Therms..."? I would, except I can't, and I really don't want to wait a week for this proposal to stop pending before submitting another one with a slightly different wording. From drduck@u... Wed May 14 11:47:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 18:47:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 45830 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 18:47:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 18:47:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 18:47:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 18579 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 18:47:18 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 14 May 2003 18:47:18 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4EIlIN25215 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 11:47:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EC29168.EBFB761C@u...> Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:56:40 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 psychicnathan wrote: > --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, "psychicnathan" wrote: > > > 3. Restart from step 1 unless there are two more Therms than there are > > players. > > Oops. My first message and I'm already making potential endless loops. Could someone make a > Call For Judgement that this should be > interpreted as "...unless there are at least two more Therms..."? I would, except I can't, and > I really don't want to wait a week for this > proposal to stop pending before submitting another one with a slightly different wording. > Okay, I wouldn't have been voting at this point except that there are no provisions for modifying a proposal once it has been submitted, and the CFJ process is simply too slow. If all of the current players vote on this proposal it will become expired, and we won't have to wait a full week for another reg. prop. from 'Nathan. I am hereby voting AGAINST this proposal. I would, however, have preferred to have seen what you wanted to do to rule 1.1 before making my vote. As it currently stands I have a number of criticisms of this proposal: 1) steps 1-3, are a loop in the original form, and simply cause the creation of a single therm in the modified form. This isn't even a case of get the destroys up to the level where you'll get a coin (rule 2.1), since you are already destroying 4 other things. There are currently 7 Therms, and 4 players. Even if the calculation for step 3 included you, at the point when we hit step 3 there would be 8 therms, and 5 players (4 + you). 2) Step 8 does nothing. The Bank currently possesses 1,000,000 Coins, so it has far *more* than three Coins. 3) The rule 5.901 is completely frivolous without knowing what you intend for rule 1.1. 4) Rules 5.91 through 5.93 seem fairly interesting. In fact they seem to do exactly what we want; Why do we need something else? 5) You end up creating 4 rules, and destroying 3 coins, and the proposal, plus whatever from steps 1-3. That means you aren't even making use of the fact that you've got a registration proposal, which would allow you to create one extra thing (rule 1.2) 6) Why is your suggested change to 2.1 any better than how it already is? Currently the rule reads: "Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes." 7) Unanimous? No, that's not how it works. A non-TSL modifying proposal needs more For votes than Against votes, a TSL modifying proposal needs more For votes than *Abstain* votes, with Against votes acting as vetoes. Let me show you what *might* have done the sort of thing you're talking about: If 2 or more Coins have been donated to the cause of this proposal, by eir possessors having stated such an intent and transfered said Coins to The Bank, then only perform items 1 through 6, otherwise only perform items 7 through 8. 1. Destroy the Coins which were donated to the cause of this proposal. 2. Create rule 5.91 in the group PROPOSALS: "Any player may Support a pending proposal by stating the intent to Support that proposal and giving any number of Coins to The Bank." 3. Create rule 5.92 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal passes, that proposal causes all Coins that were given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to be destroyed." 4. Create rule 5.93 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal fails, return each Coin given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to its previous owner, unless that player has been destroyed, in which case assign that Coin to a random player." 5. Randomly determine a player, and create a Coin in said player's possession. (a little bribery never hurts) 6. Destroy this Proposal. (4 Things created, 1 specifically destroyed, and at least 2 Coins destroyed -> Means up by at most the allowed registration proposal amount) ---------- 7. If any Coins have been donated to the cause of this proposal, then transfer said Coins out of The Bank, and to eir previous possessors. 8. Create a Coin in the possession of PsychicNathan. From ragnarok@p... Wed May 14 14:42:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 21:42:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 35600 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 20:41:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 20:41:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 20:41:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9F0AFB00C6; Wed, 14 May 2003 16:41:20 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:41:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EC29168.EBFB761C@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >of the current players vote on this proposal it will become expired, and we won't have to wait a >full week for another reg. prop. from 'Nathan. I am hereby voting AGAINST this proposal. And I FOR. I figure assuming that it implies the desired interpretation is legit, since we aren't using precise mathematical language in this game. >I would, however, have preferred to have seen what you wanted to do to rule 1.1 before making my >vote. As would I, but I can always vote down a change I don't like. >1) steps 1-3, are a loop in the original form, and simply cause the creation of a single therm >in the modified form. This isn't even a case of get the destroys up to the level where you'll >get a coin (rule 2.1), since you are already destroying 4 other things. There are currently 7 >Therms, and 4 players. Even if the calculation for step 3 included you, at the point when we >hit step 3 there would be 8 therms, and 5 players (4 + you). The goal is to give everyone Coins, I think. >3) The rule 5.901 is completely frivolous without knowing what you intend for rule 1.1. Even so, it is frivolous. Whatever proposal changes 1.1 could always remove those two rules. >4) Rules 5.91 through 5.93 seem fairly interesting. In fact they seem to do exactly what we >want; Why do we need something else? Then why did you vote against? >5) You end up creating 4 rules, and destroying 3 coins, and the proposal, plus whatever from >steps 1-3. That means you aren't even making use of the fact that you've got a registration >proposal, which would allow you to create one extra thing (rule 1.2) Oh well. E doesn't have to, and e is already creating extra things with steps 1-3. >6) Why is your suggested change to 2.1 any better than how it already is? Currently the rule >reads: "Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a >Coin if that proposal passes." I agree, but I don't see that as a problem with a proposal that doesn't deal with that. From drduck@u... Wed May 14 16:33:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 23:33:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 32119 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 22:35:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 22:35:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 22:35:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 9122 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 22:35:18 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 14 May 2003 22:35:18 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4EMZIl13364 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 15:35:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EC2C6DC.4A899891@u...> Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:44:44 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > of the current players vote on this proposal it will become expired, and we won't have to > wait a > > full week for another reg. prop. from 'Nathan. I am hereby voting AGAINST this proposal. > > And I FOR. I figure assuming that it implies the desired interpretation is > legit, since we aren't using precise mathematical language in this game. > Acknowledged, I will use the fuzziness of language to get us "out" of the loop, if this passes. However, I will also state my distaste for encouraging ambiguity like this. > > > I would, however, have preferred to have seen what you wanted to do to rule 1.1 before > making my > > vote. > > As would I, but I can always vote down a change I don't like. > Granted, but it still would have been polite ;) > > > 1) steps 1-3, are a loop in the original form, and simply cause the creation of a single > therm > > in the modified form. This isn't even a case of get the destroys up to the level where > you'll > > get a coin (rule 2.1), since you are already destroying 4 other things. There are currently > 7 > > Therms, and 4 players. Even if the calculation for step 3 included you, at the point when > we > > hit step 3 there would be 8 therms, and 5 players (4 + you). > > The goal is to give everyone Coins, I think. > The intention may have been, but the actual actions do nothing of the sort. In psuedo-code: Do { Create Coin Destroy Coin (+1 Therm) } Until (Therms = (players +2) ) in the modified form the Until is: (Therms >= (players+2) ) The problem is that players=4 -or- 5 (including Psy'Nathan), and Therms=7, before this starts, which already satisfies the conditions, therefore the original form is as I've already said a loop, and the second only increases the number of Therms by one. As far as activating rule 1.3, the proposal destroys enough things already. With (1-3) Before: 7 Therms, 4 Players; After: 12 Therms, 5 players. Without (1-3) Before: 7 Therms, 4 Players; After: 11 Therms, 5 players. Thus Therms-players=7 -or- 6, either of which does the job. > > > 3) The rule 5.901 is completely frivolous without knowing what you intend for rule 1.1. > > Even so, it is frivolous. Whatever proposal changes 1.1 could always remove those two rules. > > > 4) Rules 5.91 through 5.93 seem fairly interesting. In fact they seem to do exactly what we > > > want; Why do we need something else? > > Then why did you vote against? > Because of the overall complexity of the proposal. It makes me jump through hoops unnecessarily (see my suggested re-write), to get everything done, and it strikes me that Psy'Nathan hasn't really read through the rules as thoroughly as _I_ would prefer. The rule set isn't overly huge, so that barrier is still pretty low. > > > 5) You end up creating 4 rules, and destroying 3 coins, and the proposal, plus whatever from > > > steps 1-3. That means you aren't even making use of the fact that you've got a registration > > > proposal, which would allow you to create one extra thing (rule 1.2) > > Oh well. E doesn't have to, and e is already creating extra things with steps 1-3. > But e's not creating anything, just increasing the Therms by 1, with (1-3), that was my point above. > > > 6) Why is your suggested change to 2.1 any better than how it already is? Currently the > rule > > reads: "Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves > a > > Coin if that proposal passes." > > I agree, but I don't see that as a problem with a proposal that doesn't deal with that. > True, and this wasn't actually part of why I voted Against, just part of the criticisms in general. From ragnarok@p... Wed May 14 18:37:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 15 May 2003 01:37:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 99912 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 23:41:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 23:41:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 23:41:09 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4179AD00BE; Wed, 14 May 2003 19:41:11 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:41:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EC2C6DC.4A899891@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> > of the current players vote on this proposal it will become expired, and we won't have to >> wait a >> > full week for another reg. prop. from 'Nathan. I am hereby voting AGAINST this proposal. >> >> And I FOR. I figure assuming that it implies the desired interpretation is >> legit, since we aren't using precise mathematical language in this game. >Acknowledged, I will use the fuzziness of language to get us "out" of the loop, if this passes. >However, I will also state my distaste for encouraging ambiguity like this. I agree, but think that it's too late to deal with this case. Just don't do it in the future, PsychicNathan or anyone else. >> > I would, however, have preferred to have seen what you wanted to do to rule 1.1 before >> making my >> > vote. >> >> As would I, but I can always vote down a change I don't like. >Granted, but it still would have been polite ;) Maybe the rest of us are supposed to be psychic too. >> > 1) steps 1-3, are a loop in the original form, and simply cause the creation of a single >> therm >> > in the modified form. This isn't even a case of get the destroys up to the level where >> you'll >> > get a coin (rule 2.1), since you are already destroying 4 other things. There are currently >> 7 >> > Therms, and 4 players. Even if the calculation for step 3 included you, at the point when >> we >> > hit step 3 there would be 8 therms, and 5 players (4 + you). >> >> The goal is to give everyone Coins, I think. >The intention may have been, but the actual actions do nothing of the sort. In psuedo-code: Yes, they do. They create enough Therms that when the other actions of the proposal are done, we are left with enough Therms to give everyone a Coin. >The problem is that players=4 -or- 5 (including Psy'Nathan), and Therms=7, before this starts, >which already satisfies the conditions, therefore the original form is as I've already said a >loop, and the second only increases the number of Therms by one. E should have looked up how many there were, or divined the answer by supernatural art, or whatever. But no harm is done. >> > 3) The rule 5.901 is completely frivolous without knowing what you intend for rule 1.1. >> >> Even so, it is frivolous. Whatever proposal changes 1.1 could always remove those two rules. >> >> > 4) Rules 5.91 through 5.93 seem fairly interesting. In fact they seem to do exactly what we >> >> > want; Why do we need something else? >> >> Then why did you vote against? >Because of the overall complexity of the proposal. It makes me jump through hoops unnecessarily >(see my suggested re-write), to get everything done, and it strikes me that Psy'Nathan hasn't >really read through the rules as thoroughly as _I_ would prefer. The rule set isn't overly >huge, so that barrier is still pretty low. Yeah, I agree. E's new to the game, but as e gets going I certainly expect to see some improvement. >> > 5) You end up creating 4 rules, and destroying 3 coins, and the proposal, plus whatever from >> >> > steps 1-3. That means you aren't even making use of the fact that you've got a registration >> >> > proposal, which would allow you to create one extra thing (rule 1.2) >> >> Oh well. E doesn't have to, and e is already creating extra things with steps 1-3. >But e's not creating anything, just increasing the Therms by 1, with (1-3), that was my point >above. E is creating a Coin for each player by combining steps 1-3 with a couple of other deletions. From nmccoy@o... Wed May 14 19:45:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 15 May 2003 02:45:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 54201 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 02:45:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 May 2003 02:45:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2003 02:45:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2003 02:45:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:45:32 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3EC29168.EBFB761C@u...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7839 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "psychicnathan" X-Originating-IP: 216.39.145.26 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, Doctor Ducker wrote: > As it currently stands I have a number of criticisms of this proposal: > > 1) steps 1-3, are a loop in the original form, and simply cause the creation of a single therm > in the modified form. This isn't even a case of get the destroys up to the level where you'll > get a coin (rule 2.1), since you are already destroying 4 other things. There are currently 7 > Therms, and 4 players. Even if the calculation for step 3 included you, at the point when we > hit step 3 there would be 8 therms, and 5 players (4 + you). This brings up another point I'd like clarification on, specifically on how exactly the resolution of proposals works. Does a player join the game before or after the execution of eir registration proposal? Also, do rules take effect as soon as they are added to the ruleset or after the proposal that added them finishes being applied? If a proposal destroys itself before it would do something else, does the something else still happen? > 2) Step 8 does nothing. The Bank currently possesses 1,000,000 Coins, so it has far *more* than > three Coins. I was having trouble figuring out how many Coins the Bank had, and I wanted to make sure that the bank _would_ have three Coins no matter what, so my proposal wouldn't fail automatically if it didn't have three in it already. I was finding it difficult to determine the state of the game in general, so I also wanted to make sure the number of Therms would be enough to give everyone a Coin. Also, how did the bank get so many Coins without violating the rules? Did it have to do with the fact that rule 1.1 says "...directly increase the number of Things...", and a proposal indirectly increased it somehow? Aren't there now a million free Things we can create by destroying Coins in the bank to balance it out? Perhaps there should be a rule 5.94 that says "A proposal may not move or destroy Coins in the Bank unless those Coins were given to the Bank in Support of that proposal"? > 3) The rule 5.901 is completely frivolous without knowing what you intend for rule 1.1. My intent for rule 1.1 was to change it to 'No proposal may be _passed_ (it currently says submitted) if its passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW.' This seems significant to me because it is unclear how the rules handle a proposal that changes the number of Things by an undefined amount. It would allow proposals that could possibly violate the First Sacred Law to be submitted, but not let them be passed unless they wouldn't. This goes with the Coin/Support thing. I set up 5.901 to avoid activating the rules until they would work with that, although I see now that it was unnecessary. > > 4) Rules 5.91 through 5.93 seem fairly interesting. In fact they seem to do exactly what we > want; Why do we need something else? > > 5) You end up creating 4 rules, and destroying 3 coins, and the proposal, plus whatever from > steps 1-3. That means you aren't even making use of the fact that you've got a registration > proposal, which would allow you to create one extra thing (rule 1.2) I didn't realize that the submission of the proposal doesn't count for the purposes of 1.1, but the destruction of it does (so it is possible to gradually increase the number of Things by submitting proposals that create one thing and destroy themselves.) > 6) Why is your suggested change to 2.1 any better than how it already is? Currently the rule > reads: "Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a > Coin if that proposal passes." Because I understood this to be a reward for "cleaning up", but with the current wording anyone can get the free Coin simply by creating three things and then destroying them. Combine this with the "destroy this proposal" balance, and you get get two more Things in the total with each proposal. My wording fixes this to work as it seemed to be intended to work. (the Comment on the First Sacred Law says "The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people.", but this is not the case currently.) > 7) Unanimous? No, that's not how it works. A non-TSL modifying proposal needs more For votes > than Against votes, a TSL modifying proposal needs more For votes than *Abstain* votes, with > Against votes acting as vetoes. > > Let me show you what *might* have done the sort of thing you're talking about: > > > If 2 or more Coins have been donated to the cause of this proposal, by eir possessors having > stated such an intent and transfered said Coins to The Bank, then only perform items 1 through > 6, otherwise only perform items 7 through 8. > > 1. Destroy the Coins which were donated to the cause of this proposal. > > 2. Create rule 5.91 in the group PROPOSALS: "Any player may Support a pending proposal by > stating the intent to Support that proposal and giving any number of Coins to The Bank." > > 3. Create rule 5.92 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal passes, that proposal causes all > Coins that were given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to be destroyed." > > 4. Create rule 5.93 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal fails, return each Coin given to > The Bank in Support of that proposal to its previous owner, unless that player has been > destroyed, in which case assign that Coin to a random player." > > 5. Randomly determine a player, and create a Coin in said player's possession. (a little > bribery never hurts) > > 6. Destroy this Proposal. > > (4 Things created, 1 specifically destroyed, and at least 2 Coins destroyed -> Means up by at > most the allowed registration proposal amount) > ---------- > > 7. If any Coins have been donated to the cause of this proposal, then transfer said Coins out of > The Bank, and to eir previous possessors. > > 8. Create a Coin in the possession of PsychicNathan. > This does in fact match up with my intent, and is a much more elegant wording than what I proposed. If my current registration proposal fails, my next one will probably be: 1. Create 100 coins that belong to The Bank. 2. Destroy 103 coins that belong to The Bank. 3. Create rule 5.91 in the group PROPOSALS: "Any player may Support a pending proposal by stating the intent to Support that proposal and giving any number of Coins to The Bank." 4. Create rule 5.92 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal passes, that proposal causes all Coins that were given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to be destroyed." 5. Create rule 5.93 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal fails, return each Coin given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to its previous owner, unless that player has been destroyed, in which case assign that Coin to a random player." 6. Create rule 5.94 in the group PROPOSALS: "A proposal may not move or destroy Coins belonging to The Bank unless those Coins were given to The Bank in Support of that proposal." 7. Create rule 5.991 in the group PROPOSALS: "The person who submitted a proposal that is pending may destroy that proposal by announcing eir intent to do so on the mailing list." 8. Destroy this proposal. Does anyone foresee any problems that the above proposal might cause? Incidentally, this is the first time I've played any kind of Nomic, although I do play Magic: the Gathering, which is similar in that it is played within a framework of rules that can essentially be altered by applying those rules (specifically, by playing cards that change the way the game is played). From drduck@u... Thu May 15 01:47:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 15 May 2003 08:47:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 41624 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 08:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 May 2003 08:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2003 08:47:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 26846 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 08:47:19 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 15 May 2003 08:47:19 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4F8lJi23535 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:47:19 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EC35658.C6B93EA7@u...> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:56:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 psychicnathan wrote: > --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, Doctor Ducker wrote: > > As it currently stands I have a number of criticisms of this proposal: > > > > 1) steps 1-3, are a loop in the original form, and simply cause the creation of a single therm > > in the modified form. This isn't even a case of get the destroys up to the level where you'll > > get a coin (rule 2.1), since you are already destroying 4 other things. There are currently 7 > > Therms, and 4 players. Even if the calculation for step 3 included you, at the point when we > > hit step 3 there would be 8 therms, and 5 players (4 + you). > > This brings up another point I'd like clarification on, specifically > on how exactly the resolution of proposals works. Does a player join > the game before or after the execution of eir registration proposal? > Also, do rules take effect as soon as they are added to the ruleset or > after the proposal that added them finishes being applied? If a > proposal destroys itself before it would do something else, does the > something else still happen? > Essentially, as Speaker, I've been performing these actions to the best of my understanding. I've been operating on the principle that everything within a proposal's passage happens as a unit with regard to the rest of the game, but inside the proposal in the order it appears or dictates. With regard to player registration, I've been counting the actual registration as being a _part_ of the proposal, and checking rule 1.3 after the proposal is done. While doing things this way might not be strictly adhering to the letter of the rules, it does seem to me to be the spirit of them. > > > 2) Step 8 does nothing. The Bank currently possesses 1,000,000 Coins, so it has far *more* than > > three Coins. > > I was having trouble figuring out how many Coins the Bank had, and I > wanted to make sure that the bank _would_ have three Coins no matter > what, so my proposal wouldn't fail automatically if it didn't have > three in it already. Ah, my apologies. I've been keeping the info on a geocities site, http://www.geocities.com/ducker756/thermo.html > I was finding it difficult to determine the state > of the game in general, so I also wanted to make sure the number of > Therms would be enough to give everyone a Coin. Also, how did the bank > get so many Coins without violating the rules? Did it have to do with > the fact that rule 1.1 says "...directly increase the number of > Things...", and a proposal indirectly increased it somehow? There was at one point a rule which read: "When a proposal is passed, this rule is destroyed and 1,000,000 Coins are created in the possession of the Bank." When the next proposal to pass did so the rule created the coins, and then went away... It's not _quite_ as hard as it seems to get new Things. Also if you look back through the messages to the stuff around the beginning of April, you'll find a message (#64) where I list some less than obvious ways to get new Things into the game. > Aren't there now a million free Things we can create by destroying Coins in > the bank to balance it out? Perhaps there should be a rule 5.94 that > says "A proposal may not move or destroy Coins in the Bank unless > those Coins were given to the Bank in Support of that proposal"? > Look back to some of the more recent messages (starting with #532), for some of the ideas we've been beating about. > > > 3) The rule 5.901 is completely frivolous without knowing what you intend for rule 1.1. > > My intent for rule 1.1 was to change it to 'No proposal may be > _passed_ (it currently says submitted) if its passage would directly > increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly > permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW.' hmmm, I'm very leery of alteration to the TSLs, and I'm really not sure this is needed. Remember these are _Sacred_ after all... ;) > > This seems significant to me because it is unclear how the rules > handle a proposal that changes the number of Things by an undefined > amount. The way we've been operating is to follow the instructions of a proposal. This would mean that conditionals could be used, and is exactly what I do in my suggested re-write of your proposal. > It would allow proposals that could possibly violate the First > Sacred Law to be submitted, but not let them be passed unless they > wouldn't. This goes with the Coin/Support thing. I set up 5.901 to > avoid activating the rules until they would work with that, although I > see now that it was unnecessary. > > > > > 4) Rules 5.91 through 5.93 seem fairly interesting. In fact they seem to do exactly what we > > want; Why do we need something else? > > > > 5) You end up creating 4 rules, and destroying 3 coins, and the proposal, plus whatever from > > steps 1-3. That means you aren't even making use of the fact that you've got a registration > > proposal, which would allow you to create one extra thing (rule 1.2) > > I didn't realize that the submission of the proposal doesn't count for > the purposes of 1.1, but the destruction of it does (so it is possible > to gradually increase the number of Things by submitting proposals > that create one thing and destroy themselves.) > Yup, that's exactly one of the points I make in message (#64) > > > 6) Why is your suggested change to 2.1 any better than how it already is? Currently the rule > > reads: "Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a > > Coin if that proposal passes." > > Because I understood this to be a reward for "cleaning up", but with > the current wording anyone can get the free Coin simply by creating > three things and then destroying them. Ah, no, my interpretation of the intent of 2.1 is to _encourage_ entropy through the increase in Therms, nothing to do with cleaning up... > Combine this with the "destroy this proposal" balance, and you get get two more Things in the total > with each proposal. Actually you don't, since you only get the Coin _if_ the proposal passes... > My wording fixes this to work as it seemed to be > intended to work. (the Comment on the First Sacred Law says "The > number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by > external people.", but this is not the case currently.) > Well, it's correct that as things currently stand there are actually many ways to get more things, but that "Comment" doesn't have the force of law (rule 4.3), so it could just as easily read "we do the hokey-pokey" ;) > > > 7) Unanimous? No, that's not how it works. A non-TSL modifying proposal needs more For votes > > than Against votes, a TSL modifying proposal needs more For votes than *Abstain* votes, with > > Against votes acting as vetoes. > > > > Let me show you what *might* have done the sort of thing you're talking about: > > > > > > If 2 or more Coins have been donated to the cause of this proposal, by eir possessors having > > stated such an intent and transfered said Coins to The Bank, then only perform items 1 through > > 6, otherwise only pe. . . > > . . . ted to the cause of this proposal, then transfer said Coins out of > > The Bank, and to eir previous possessors. > > > > 8. Create a Coin in the possession of PsychicNathan. > > > > This does in fact match up with my intent, and is a much more elegant > wording than what I proposed. I'm flattered. But that was simply to give you an idea of a way you could work things. > If my current registration proposal fails, my next one will probably be: > > > 1. Create 100 coins that belong to The Bank. > 2. Destroy 103 coins that belong to The Bank. > 3. Create rule 5.91 in the group PROPOSALS: "Any player may Support a > pending proposal by stating the intent to Support that proposal and > giving any number of Coins to The Bank." > 4. Create rule 5.92 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal passes, > that proposal causes all Coins that were given to The Bank in Support > of that proposal to be destroyed." > 5. Create rule 5.93 in the group PROPOSALS: "When a proposal fails, > return each Coin given to The Bank in Support of that proposal to its > previous owner, unless that player has been destroyed, in which case > assign that Coin to a random player." > 6. Create rule 5.94 in the group PROPOSALS: "A proposal may not move > or destroy Coins belonging to The Bank unless those Coins were given > to The Bank in Support of that proposal." > 7. Create rule 5.991 in the group PROPOSALS: "The person who submitted > a proposal that is pending may destroy that proposal by announcing eir > intent to do so on the mailing list." > 8. Destroy this proposal. > > > Does anyone foresee any problems that the above proposal might cause? You don't need to create and destroy the hundred extra Coins. You'll already be destroying 4 things, and thus bringing the therms up to 11, and that'll take the Therm level over the 10 needed (guaranteed) to activate rule 1.3 . Also, look over the ideas we've had regarding possession (message 532+) before including 5.94, or 5.991 Actually look over this language: Destroy 2 Coins in the possession of The Bank. Create the following three rules: o 5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. o 5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. o 5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of it's submission is destroyed. Randomly determine a player to recieve possession of a newly created Coin. Destroy this proposal Therms go from 7 to 10 Players will be at 5 thus 5 more therms than players, everybody gets a Coin... ;) Yeah, 5.91 is kinda convoluted, but it's hard to get it all into a single sentence. But what it all means, is that a proposal may recruit support, by requesting a "Support of Coins", with which it can use to create new things. A TSL violator could thus become a non-TSL violator, and thus a pending proposal. It also means that a proposal has a limited time in which to gain such support (5.93). Support is however restricted to only the Coins in possession of Players (5.92). > > Incidentally, this is the first time I've played any kind of Nomic, > although I do play Magic: the Gathering, which is similar in that it > is played within a framework of rules that can essentially be altered > by applying those rules (specifically, by playing cards that change > the way the game is played). > You're not doing too bad, I'd simply suggest reading the rules a bit more critically, as well as looking over the archives of the mailing list to avoid wasting effort on things which have already been discussed and figured out, not too mention as a source of ideas. Also, how did you come upon Thermo? And again, I keep the records, as both Speaker and Stenographer, at http://www.geocities.com/ducker756/thermo.html From unlin_e@y... Thu May 15 09:06:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 15 May 2003 16:06:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 82725 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 16:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 May 2003 16:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11407.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.237) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2003 16:06:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20030515160607.43945.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 15 May 2003 09:06:07 PDT Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re-Assignment of CFJs From Cassie To Others To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Craig wrote: > >CFJ #8, is assigned, via the dice server as included below, to Craig. > Craig, > >Josh, and unlin_e were elegible. > > CFJ #7 is not materially different. It was judged false and appealed. My > appelate judgement was TRUE, and for all the same reasons I judge CFJ #8 > TRUE. I also note that this precedent should simplify the appeal on CFJ #7; > if it doesn't there needs to be some fixing to the judicial system. > unlin_e also judges TRUE on CFJ #7. unlin_e judges TRUE on CFJ #9; there was nothing to destroy. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ragnarok@p... Thu May 15 13:44:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 15 May 2003 20:44:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 26447 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 20:44:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 May 2003 20:44:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2003 20:44:07 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC1885400BC; Thu, 15 May 2003 16:44:08 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:44:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EC35658.C6B93EA7@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Aren't there now a million free Things we can create by destroying Coins in >> the bank to balance it out? Perhaps there should be a rule 5.94 that >> says "A proposal may not move or destroy Coins in the Bank unless >> those Coins were given to the Bank in Support of that proposal"? >Look back to some of the more recent messages (starting with #532), for some of the ideas we've >been beating about. Basically, the hope was to establish an economy. I am leery of most other uses for the Coins. >> Because I understood this to be a reward for "cleaning up", but with >> the current wording anyone can get the free Coin simply by creating >> three things and then destroying them. >Ah, no, my interpretation of the intent of 2.1 is to _encourage_ entropy through the increase in >Therms, nothing to do with cleaning up... Yup. As the writer of the initial rules, I will state that the idea was to encourage people to drop the number of things in the game. >> My wording fixes this to work as it seemed to be >> intended to work. (the Comment on the First Sacred Law says "The >> number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by >> external people.", but this is not the case currently.) >Well, it's correct that as things currently stand there are actually many ways to get more >things, but that "Comment" doesn't have the force of law (rule 4.3), so it could just as easily >read "we do the hokey-pokey" ;) The intent was much stronger than what actually happened. The comment tells what was intended rather than what we've found it actually means. But Dr Ducker is right about the hokey-pokey, in fact one recent proposal contains a line "Let's do the happy-dance." Meaning, perhaps, that Thermo is in a state of happy-dancing right now. Or perhaps not. From ragnarok@p... Thu May 15 14:28:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 15 May 2003 21:28:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 36532 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 20:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 May 2003 20:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2003 20:55:26 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEBF6020028; Thu, 15 May 2003 16:55:27 -0400 To: Subject: The Potatoes of Wrath Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:55:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I submit the following proposals: Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Stenographic Wrath, whose description reads: No player who has posessed this Hot Potato in the past three days may submit a Call For Judgement without the approval of the Stenographer. If e has not done so during the past week, the Stenographer may cause posession of this Hot Potato to be transferred. No player who has posessed this Hot Potato for less than one full day may give it to any other player. Destroy this proposal. Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Taxation, whose description reads: Every three days, one Coin belonging to the posessor of this Potato is transferred to the Bank. Destroy this proposal. Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Generally Ticked Off Players, whose description reads: All players are invited to irritate the heck out of the posessor of this proposal. Every week, the posessor of this potato may choose to declare one player to be Supremely Aggravating. Destroy this proposal. From drduck@u... Fri May 16 02:52:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 16 May 2003 09:52:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 81003 invoked from network); 16 May 2003 09:52:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2003 09:52:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2003 09:52:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 14698 invoked from network); 16 May 2003 09:52:36 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 May 2003 09:52:36 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4G9qZA01809 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 02:52:35 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EC4B744.DB37BEFB@u...> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:02:44 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potatoes of Wrath References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Stenographic Wrath, whose > description reads: > No player who has posessed this Hot Potato in the past three days may submit > a Call For Judgement without the approval of the Stenographer. If e has not > done so during the past week, the Stenographer may cause posession of this > Hot Potato to be transferred. No player who has posessed this Hot Potato for > less than one full day may give it to any other player. > > Destroy this proposal. > > As Stenographer, I think this might give me just a twitch too much power, but I will simply vote ABSTAIN on this proposal. > > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Taxation, whose description reads: > Every three days, one Coin belonging to the posessor of this Potato is > transferred to the Bank. > > Destroy this proposal. > > "Every three days" is a twitch too ambiguous for my tastes, so I'm voting AGAINST this proposal. > > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Generally Ticked Off Players, whose > description reads: > All players are invited to irritate the heck out of the posessor of this > proposal. Every week, the posessor of this potato may choose to declare one > player to be Supremely Aggravating. > > Destroy this proposal. > > Okay, as far as I can tell this means that, you, Craig, as the "posessor of this proposal", are probably going to get rather irritated.. ;) Though, I'm not sure who that'll be if this passes, since the proposal will be destroyed. I'm holding off on voting on this for the moment... Also, I've not quite got these up on the website, yet. From ragnarok@p... Fri May 16 13:14:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 16 May 2003 20:14:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 69941 invoked from network); 16 May 2003 20:14:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2003 20:14:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2003 20:14:27 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6A27DF0050; Fri, 16 May 2003 16:14:26 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potatoes of Wrath Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:14:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EC4B744.DB37BEFB@u...> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Stenographic Wrath, whose >> description reads: >> No player who has posessed this Hot Potato in the past three days may submit >> a Call For Judgement without the approval of the Stenographer. If e has not >> done so during the past week, the Stenographer may cause posession of this >> Hot Potato to be transferred. No player who has posessed this Hot Potato for >> less than one full day may give it to any other player. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >As Stenographer, I think this might give me just a twitch too much power, but I will simply vote >ABSTAIN on this proposal. Hmm... it was intended to give you the power to shut up anyone who abuses the judicial system, but it does seem a bit overdone. AGAINST. When I or anyone else comes up with an improvement, it will be resubmitted. Or not. >> >> Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Taxation, whose description reads: >> Every three days, one Coin belonging to the posessor of this Potato is >> transferred to the Bank. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >"Every three days" is a twitch too ambiguous for my tastes, so I'm voting AGAINST this proposal. For want of a better way to say it that comes easily to mind, I'm FOR it. If you suggest a workable alternative, I will change to be AGAINST with you and resubmit. >> >> Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Generally Ticked Off Players, whose >> description reads: >> All players are invited to irritate the heck out of the posessor of this >> proposal. Every week, the posessor of this potato may choose to declare one >> player to be Supremely Aggravating. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >Okay, as far as I can tell this means that, you, Craig, as the "posessor of this proposal", are >probably going to get rather irritated.. ;) That's a typo. It's meant to be the potato. AGAINST, to avoid the inevitable result of it being otherwise. From drduck@u... Fri May 16 15:43:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 16 May 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 66442 invoked from network); 16 May 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 1437 invoked from network); 16 May 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 May 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4GMhfq06511 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 15:43:41 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@s... Message-ID: <3EC56C0D.6C2400C0@u...> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:54:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potatoes of Wrath References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > > > > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Stenographic Wrath, whose > > > description reads: > > > No player who has posessed this Hot Potato in the past three days may submit > > > a Call For Judgement without the approval of the Stenographer. If e has not > > > done so during the past week, the Stenographer may cause posession of this > > > Hot Potato to be transferred. No player who has posessed this Hot Potato for > > > less than one full day may give it to any other player. > > > > > > Destroy this proposal. > > > > > > As Stenographer, I think this might give me just a twitch too much power, but I will simply > vote > > ABSTAIN on this proposal. > > Hmm... it was intended to give you the power to shut up anyone who abuses > the judicial system, but it does seem a bit overdone. AGAINST. When I or > anyone else comes up with an improvement, it will be resubmitted. Or not. > > > > > > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Taxation, whose description reads: > > > Every three days, one Coin belonging to the posessor of this Potato is > > > transferred to the Bank. > > > > > > Destroy this proposal. > > > > > > "Every three days" is a twitch too ambiguous for my tastes, so I'm voting AGAINST this > proposal. > > For want of a better way to say it that comes easily to mind, I'm FOR it. If > you suggest a workable alternative, I will change to be AGAINST with you and > resubmit. > Hmmm... On every day where the date modulo 3 is zero, at a randomly determined hour, whichever player is in possession of this Potato, shall automatically transfer one Coin from eir possession to The Bank. If said player has no Coins in es possession, then the Potato is randomly transferred to a player who does have at least one Coin, and this new possessor must transfer One Coin to The Bank. The Speaker can only recieve this Potato as a result of a random transferrence, and must transfer it away again within one day. A Speaker failing to transfer it away within one day must, transfer, if possible, one Coin to The Bank, and then randomly determine a new possessor from all players excluding the Speaker. The Speaker bits, are because, well, the Speaker will be determining that random hour, so ey could hold onto it till just before it goes off, which isn't fair to everyone else. This way they do still have some risk associated with a zero coin situation, but can never hold that insider info over on anyone. > > > > > > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Generally Ticked Off Players, whose > > > description reads: > > > All players are invited to irritate the heck out of the posessor of this > > > proposal. Every week, the posessor of this potato may choose to declare one > > > player to be Supremely Aggravating. > > > > > > Destroy this proposal. > > > > > > Okay, as far as I can tell this means that, you, Craig, as the "posessor of this proposal", > are > > probably going to get rather irritated.. ;) > > That's a typo. It's meant to be the potato. AGAINST, to avoid the inevitable result of it > being otherwise. > That's what I thought, but who am I to judge your masochistic tendencies ;) But, now that that's settled, I can comfortably vote AGAINST the "wrath in a vague and general sense" proposal. From ragnarok@p... Sat May 17 14:46:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 17 May 2003 21:46:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 950 invoked from network); 17 May 2003 21:46:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2003 21:46:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2003 21:46:10 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADA3B8A00C0; Sat, 17 May 2003 17:46:11 -0400 To: Subject: Josh Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:46:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Josh, you'd better post today. Unless you *want* to deregister. From drduck@u... Sat May 17 16:28:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 17 May 2003 23:28:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 59978 invoked from network); 17 May 2003 23:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2003 23:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2003 23:28:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 5794 invoked from network); 17 May 2003 23:28:23 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 May 2003 23:28:23 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4HNSNO05699 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 16:28:23 -0700 X-envelope-info: Sender: drduck@t... Message-ID: <3EC6C822.390339EF@u...> Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:39:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-24.8.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, ja, zh-CN, zh-TW, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Josh References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > Josh, you'd better post today. Unless you *want* to deregister. > Yes, at the time this mail is being sent, you have approximately 24 hours before deregistration. From cortex@n... Sat May 17 19:53:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 18 May 2003 02:53:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 26998 invoked from network); 18 May 2003 02:53:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2003 02:53:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2003 02:53:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 31958 invoked by uid 1006); 18 May 2003 02:53:30 -0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:53:30 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Josh Message-ID: <20030517225329.A31945@a...> References: <3EC6C822.390339EF@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EC6C822.390339EF@u...>; from drduck@u... on Sat, May 17, 2003 at 04:39:14PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 04:39:14PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > Craig wrote: > > > Josh, you'd better post today. Unless you *want* to deregister. > > > > Yes, at the time this mail is being sent, you have approximately 24 hours before deregistration. Well. We can't have that. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon May 19 12:52:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 19 May 2003 19:51:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 78686 invoked from network); 19 May 2003 19:51:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2003 19:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2003 19:51:39 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5CC190B00E8; Mon, 19 May 2003 15:51:40 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:51:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Just wanted to point out that so far I think only Dr Ducker and I have voted. Josh, unlin_e, please vote on the registration proposal of PsychicNathan. From cortex@n... Mon May 19 15:24:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 19 May 2003 22:24:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 92047 invoked from network); 19 May 2003 21:56:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2003 21:56:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2003 21:55:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 7100 invoked by uid 1006); 19 May 2003 21:55:56 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:55:56 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Registration proposal of PsychicNathan Message-ID: <20030519175556.A7086@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, May 19, 2003 at 03:51:52PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 03:51:52PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > Just wanted to point out that so far I think only Dr Ducker and I have > voted. Josh, unlin_e, please vote on the registration proposal of > PsychicNathan. Oop. This'd be a resolute ABSTAIN, then. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From unlin_e@y... Tue May 20 13:14:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 20 May 2003 20:14:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 23696 invoked from network); 20 May 2003 20:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 May 2003 20:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11403.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.233) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 May 2003 20:14:53 -0000 Message-ID: <20030520201453.36696.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2003 13:14:53 PDT Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Registration proposal of PsychicNathan To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20030519175556.A7086@a...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- cortex wrote: > On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 03:51:52PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > Just wanted to point out that so far I think only Dr Ducker and I have > > voted. Josh, unlin_e, please vote on the registration proposal of > > PsychicNathan. > > Oop. This'd be a resolute ABSTAIN, then. unlin_e is AGAINST. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From nmccoy@o... Fri May 23 22:19:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19372 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 05:19:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 May 2003 05:19:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2003 05:19:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 17586 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 05:19:10 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 24 May 2003 05:19:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3ECEFEAF.3030700@o...> Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:10:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Return of the Revenge of the Registration Proposal of PsychicNathan Strikes Back X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan Create the following three rules: 5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. 5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. 5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. Destroy rule 5.8. Create rule 5.8: No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. Create rule 5.991 in the group PROPOSALS: "The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list." Destroy a coin belonging to The Bank. Destroy the first Registration Proposal of PsychicNathan. Destroy this proposal. From drduck@u... Sat May 24 03:42:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24329 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 10:42:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 May 2003 10:42:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2003 10:42:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 18959 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 10:42:05 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 May 2003 10:42:05 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4OAg4225095 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 03:42:04 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ECF4FB1.5040900@u...> Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:55:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021003 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Return of the Revenge of the Registration Proposal of PsychicNathan Strikes Back References: <3ECEFEAF.3030700@o...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 I'm not yet voting, because I'd like a consensus on whether PsychicNathans proposed rule 5.8 is too onerous or not. As it is I'm thinking that simply putting the sentence "This proposal requests a Support of Coins." at the beginning of every proposal would satisfy this new 5.8, so I don't actualy think it's all that bad, but what do you others think? Does that actually satisfy these requirements? Nathan McCoy wrote: > > >Create the following three rules: > >5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. > >5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. > >5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. > >Destroy rule 5.8. > >Create rule 5.8: No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. > >Create rule 5.991 in the group PROPOSALS: "The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list." > >Destroy a coin belonging to The Bank. > >Destroy the first Registration Proposal of PsychicNathan. > >Destroy this proposal. > > > > From ragnarok@p... Sat May 24 05:34:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98246 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 12:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 May 2003 12:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2003 12:34:18 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6D21DD600D0; Sat, 24 May 2003 08:34:26 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Return of the Revenge of the Registration Proposal ofPsychicNathan Strikes Back Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:34:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ECF4FB1.5040900@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >I'm not yet voting, because I'd like a consensus on whether >PsychicNathans proposed rule 5.8 is too onerous or not. >As it is I'm thinking that simply putting the sentence "This proposal >requests a Support of Coins." at the beginning of every proposal would >satisfy this new 5.8, so I don't actualy think it's all that bad, but >what do you others think? Does that actually satisfy these requirements? Umm... you only need to be pending OR request support. If you both aren't pending AND don't request support, nobody can vote. Predictably, I'm FOR it. From drduck@u... Sat May 24 14:04:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62013 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 21:04:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 May 2003 21:04:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2003 21:04:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 27448 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 21:04:44 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 May 2003 21:04:44 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4OL4hL31567 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 14:04:43 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ECFE1B6.3040706@u...> Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:18:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021003 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Return of the Revenge of the Registration Proposal ofPsychicNathan Strikes Back References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: >>I'm not yet voting, because I'd like a consensus on whether >>PsychicNathans proposed rule 5.8 is too onerous or not. >> >> > > > >>As it is I'm thinking that simply putting the sentence "This proposal >>requests a Support of Coins." at the beginning of every proposal would >>satisfy this new 5.8, so I don't actualy think it's all that bad, but >>what do you others think? Does that actually satisfy these requirements? >> >> > >Umm... you only need to be pending OR request support. If you both aren't >pending AND don't request support, nobody can vote. > > Hmmm... Well I had been reading it as requiring both, but I see that interpretation as well. Of course there are two points about your interpretation that make this a little dangerous: 1) ALL submitted proposals expire.(rule 5.7) All expired rules are tested for passage.(rules 6.2, 6.3) If we can vote on a proposal which is not pending, then when it expires it can theoretically pass, even if t was never pending. 2) Fortunately, we have rule 5.6, which takes precedence over 5.8, which states you must state "what pending proposal" you are casting your vote on, thereby acting somewhat redundently. Point One, makes a big ol'messa things. Point two, means that under your interpretation the request is optional, under my interpretation it becomes a formality. Can we get any other opinions on this? For reference PsychicNathan's proposed rule 5.8: "Create rule 5.8: No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support." >Predictably, I'm FOR it. > > As Speaker: Noted. From drduck@u... Sun May 25 14:14:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55822 invoked from network); 25 May 2003 21:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 May 2003 21:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 May 2003 21:14:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 12061 invoked from network); 25 May 2003 21:14:38 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 May 2003 21:14:38 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4PLEc803765 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:14:38 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED1359F.3040500@u...> Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:29:03 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Attn: Josh & unlin_e, deregistration is approaching Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Josh, you have somewhere around 24 hours before you'll deregister. unlin_e, you have around 48 hours before you'll deregister. From cortex@n... Mon May 26 08:43:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62542 invoked from network); 26 May 2003 15:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 May 2003 15:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 May 2003 15:43:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 841 invoked by uid 1006); 26 May 2003 15:43:12 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:43:12 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: Josh & unlin_e, deregistration is approaching Message-ID: <20030526114312.A830@a...> References: <3ED1359F.3040500@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3ED1359F.3040500@u...>; from drduck@u... on Sun, May 25, 2003 at 02:29:03PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 02:29:03PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > Josh, you have somewhere around 24 hours before you'll deregister. Hi! Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From unlin_e@y... Tue May 27 10:40:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14943 invoked from network); 27 May 2003 17:40:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 May 2003 17:40:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11407.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.237) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 May 2003 17:40:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20030527174054.70376.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 27 May 2003 10:40:54 PDT Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: Josh & unlin_e, deregistration is approaching To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20030526114312.A830@a...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- cortex wrote: > On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 02:29:03PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > > Josh, you have somewhere around 24 hours before you'll deregister. > > Hi! > > Josh Hi!, too! unlin_e __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Thu May 29 14:47:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 90493 invoked by uid 7800); 29 May 2003 21:47:03 -0000 Date: 29 May 2003 21:47:03 -0000 Message-ID: <1054244823.397923058.76868.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ::: THERMODYNOMIC 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. Comment: ::: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. ::: SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. ::: THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. ::: THE RULESET 4 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. ::: PROPOSALS 5 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending. 5.9 If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. ::: CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. ::: DEREGISTRATION 7 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 A player deregisters if ey fails to post a message to the official mailing list in a week. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. ::: REGISTRATION 8 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. ::: THINGS 9 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. ::: OFFICES 10 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. 10.6 Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. 10.7 Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.8 Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. ::: JUDGEMENT 11 Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.01 A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. 11.7 A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: APPEALS 12 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. 12.566 The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. 12.6 An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: PAST JUDGEMENTS 13 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. 15.001 It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. 15.002 Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored. 15.003 Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 15.004 There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. 15.005 For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. Comment: ::: POTATOES 15 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. From drduck@u... Fri May 30 02:53:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14015 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 09:53:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 May 2003 09:53:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2003 09:53:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 22313 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 09:52:59 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 May 2003 09:52:59 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4U9qxK22027 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 02:52:59 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED72DDB.1010308@u...> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 03:09:31 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Current Events Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 On May 22, unlin_e and I, as Stenographer, each received one Coin from the bank, per rule 10.7. On May 27, CFJ #8 was written into the ruleset. This fact was not refelected in the ruleset.txt file until today. On May 29 @ 5:06 PM , CFJ #9 was written into the ruleset. This fact was not refelected in the ruleset.txt file until today. On May 29 @ 10:47 pm, Yahoo auto-sent the ruleset.txt file to the mailing list. ------------------------ The auto-post of the ruleset caused the Potato of Displacement to briefly flicker, but otherwise do nothing. The current ruleset.txt file, available on the Yahoo site, includes the rules 15.006 & 15.007 created by CFJs 8 & 9. There is currently one proposal pending, which has yet to receive votes from anyone besides Craig. Craig, you are dangerously close (a little over 24 hours) to deregistering. Please make a post soon. From ragnarok@p... Fri May 30 03:19:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61956 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 10:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 May 2003 10:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2003 10:19:02 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A01D298200DA; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:19:09 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Current Events Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 06:19:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ED72DDB.1010308@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Craig, you are dangerously close (a little over 24 hours) to >deregistering. Please make a post soon. Okay. From drduck@u... Fri May 30 16:13:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97358 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 23:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 May 2003 23:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2003 23:13:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 26678 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 23:13:10 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 May 2003 23:13:10 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4UNDAT26408 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:13:10 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED7E586.9040809@u...> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:13:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Return of the Revenge of the Registration Proposal of PsychicNathan Strikes Back References: <3ECEFEAF.3030700@o...> In-Reply-To: <3ECEFEAF.3030700@o...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Nathan McCoy wrote: > > >Create the following three rules: > >5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. > >5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. > >5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. > >Destroy rule 5.8. > >Create rule 5.8: No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. > >Create rule 5.991 in the group PROPOSALS: "The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list." > >Destroy a coin belonging to The Bank. > >Destroy the first Registration Proposal of PsychicNathan. > >Destroy this proposal. > > > Okay, well I'm actually going to vote FOR this. While I'm still not so sure about the new 5.8, I'm willing to give it the benefit of a doubt. From drduck@u... Fri May 30 16:17:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87616 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 23:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 May 2003 23:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2003 23:17:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 28521 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 23:17:21 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 30 May 2003 23:17:21 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4UNHLx00725 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:17:21 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:17:22 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Attn: PsychicNathan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon as it's passed. P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) From bdonlan@b... Fri May 30 16:37:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75794 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 23:37:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 May 2003 23:37:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2003 23:37:31 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5B43014E137; Fri, 30 May 2003 19:37:30 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:37:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> In-Reply-To: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305301937.29652.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 30 May 2003 07:17 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your > registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon > as it's passed. > > P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) Hm - what rules cause this? I'd like to reregister, and this sounds like a= =20 good thing to fix in a registration prop. - --=20 bd =C0s vezes, Deus d=E1 bolacha para quem n=E3o tem dentes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+1+s5x533NjVSos4RApCtAJwNplFS8WrTIAp9yklTIQEazn/8swCgw+ZB eoyrzj4jbRh6JkMyfHaPeTg=3D =3DLh0y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri May 30 20:21:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66018 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 03:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 03:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 03:21:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFD9286000BE; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:22:01 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:21:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200305301937.29652.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your >> registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon >> as it's passed. >> >> P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) >Hm - what rules cause this? I'd like to reregister, and this sounds like a >good thing to fix in a registration prop. 7.2. The wording is odd, so it isn't clear if that is really the case. But it is more likely than the interpretation that you have to have been a player for a week; definitely fertile grounds for a rewrite. From bdonlan@b... Fri May 30 20:28:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17047 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 03:28:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 03:28:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 03:28:37 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D34FF14E137; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:28:35 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:28:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 30 May 2003 11:21 pm, Craig wrote: > >> You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your > >> registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soo= n > >> as it's passed. > >> > >> P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) > > > >Hm - what rules cause this? I'd like to reregister, and this sounds like= a > >good thing to fix in a registration prop. > > 7.2. The wording is odd, so it isn't clear if that is really the case. Bu= t > it is more likely than the interpretation that you have to have been a > player for a week; definitely fertile grounds for a rewrite. Okay. I propose as a registration prop: Destroy rule 7.2 Create: 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted = a=20 message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. Create a Coin in the possession of bd. - --=20 bd purpitation, n.: To take something off the grocery shelf, decide you don't want it, and then put it in another section. -- "Sniglets", Rich Hall & Friends -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+2CFhx533NjVSos4RApOEAJwLpO6y/LVJrsOwSNjH3Bt//GffzgCfUucL uZnJdWFYWwwNYOO+D5fRQWQ=3D =3D3M0V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri May 30 20:33:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2771 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 03:33:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 03:33:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 03:33:05 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A275266100B4; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:33:09 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:33:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Okay. I propose as a registration prop: >Destroy rule 7.2 >Create: >7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a >message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. >Create a Coin in the possession of bd. Gosh. And destroying the proposal you could have gotten two. Anyway, I'm FOR it. From bdonlan@b... Fri May 30 20:36:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90004 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 03:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 03:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bd-home-comp.no-ip.org) (24.25.171.136) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 03:36:12 -0000 Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DB09714E137; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:36:08 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:36:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305302336.07207.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 30 May 2003 11:33 pm, Craig wrote: > >Okay. I propose as a registration prop: > >Destroy rule 7.2 > >Create: > >7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not post= ed > > a > > >message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. > > > >Create a Coin in the possession of bd. > > Gosh. And destroying the proposal you could have gotten two. I'm out of practice ;) - --=20 bd Problem solving under Linux has never been the circus that it is under AIX. -- Pete Ehlke in comp.unix.aix -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+2CMmx533NjVSos4RAoI5AKCFqLL3DEsZPVj5cM/H4CL5VjtndQCgx0H8 LXo4a2+7O7ERMhNrzMIDbdU=3D =3DVlRM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Fri May 30 22:14:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71043 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 05:14:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 05:14:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 05:14:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 20119 invoked by uid 1006); 31 May 2003 05:14:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 01:14:28 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Message-ID: <20030531011428.A20077@a...> References: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...>; from bdonlan@b... on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 11:28:32PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 11:28:32PM -0400, bd keyboarded: > > Okay. I propose as a registration prop: > Destroy rule 7.2 > Create: > 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a > message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. > > Create a Coin in the possession of bd. FOR, yo. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From nmccoy@o... Sat May 31 00:04:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53974 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 07:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 07:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 07:04:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 16177 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 07:04:13 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 07:04:13 -0000 Message-ID: <3ED85191.2040006@o...> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:54:09 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan References: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> In-Reply-To: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan Doctor Ducker wrote: > You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your > registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon > as it's passed. > > P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) > So does that mean I need to wait for a virtual antiPsychicNathan to fall into a black hole before I can become real by means of Hawking radiation, then? From drduck@u... Sat May 31 02:23:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69486 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 09:23:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 09:23:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 09:23:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 32361 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 09:23:32 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 09:23:32 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4V9NVL31738 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 02:23:31 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED874A0.4040007@u...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:23:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan References: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> <3ED85191.2040006@o...> In-Reply-To: <3ED85191.2040006@o...> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000705000306090000030908" From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 --------------000705000306090000030908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathan McCoy wrote: >Doctor Ducker wrote: > > >>You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon as it's passed. >> >>P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) >> >> >> > >So does that mean I need to wait for a virtual antiPsychicNathan to fall into a black hole before I can become real by means of Hawking radiation, then? > > Well I'm not sure about the black hole, but you did briefly *Pop* into existence with a shower of Coins, and a few new rules, and then *Pop* again, out of existence. Sorry about the timing thing there. I didn't notice the problem until I sent the above message. Anyway, currently PsychicNathan is not a registered player. However, in es brief existence e did manage to gather 3 Coins, one of which was destroyed upon es deregistration, the other two were reassigned to Craig and Dr Ducker (I'll be forwarding the dice server email seperately). PsychicNathan's registration also reset the Therms to 0, and gave everybody a coin. --------------000705000306090000030908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathan McCoy wrote:
Doctor Ducker wrote:

You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon as it's passed.

P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;)



So does that mean I need to wait for a virtual antiPsychicNathan to fall into a black hole before I can become real by means of Hawking radiation, then?

Well I'm not sure about the black hole, but you did briefly *Pop* into existence with a shower of Coins, and a few new rules, and then *Pop* again, out of existence.  Sorry about the timing thing there.  I didn't notice the problem until I sent the above message.

Anyway, currently PsychicNathan is not a registered player.  However, in es brief existence e did manage to gather 3 Coins, one of which was destroyed upon es deregistration, the other two were reassigned to Craig and Dr Ducker (I'll be forwarding the dice server email seperately).

PsychicNathan's registration also reset the Therms to 0, and gave everybody a coin.


--------------000705000306090000030908-- From drduck@u... Sat May 31 02:24:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 222 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 09:24:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 09:24:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 09:24:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 32598 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 09:24:12 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 09:24:12 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4V9OBE13123 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 02:24:11 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED874C8.8030300@u...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:24:24 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: PsychicNathan's Deregistration Wealth Redistribution] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010401060900070204070601" From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 --------------010401060900070204070601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------- Original Message -------- From: - Sat May 31 01:15:51 2003 X-UIDL: 839HeEiPD0710M08 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from cmsmail08.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.8] by cmsmail08.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.06H) with ESMTP id 839HeEiPD0710M08; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:15:04 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail08.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Sat, 31 May 2003 08:15:03 GMT Received: (qmail 1526 invoked by uid 951); 31 May 2003 08:15:03 -0000 Date: 31 May 2003 08:15:03 -0000 Message-ID: <20030531081503.1525.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: PsychicNathan's Deregistration Wealth Redistribution X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # ------------------------------------------------------ # Assignments will be made according to this order: # 1:: Craig # 2:: Dr Ducker # 3:: Josh # 4:: unlin_e # ------------------------------------------------------ No. of sides on every die: 4 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 2 No. of rolls per line: 1 1 2 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 1477 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 08:14:55 -0000 > Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 08:14:55 -0000 > Received: (qmail 8719 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 08:14:54 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 08:14:54 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4V8EsB01834 > for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 01:14:54 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Message-ID: <3ED86489.8040108@u...> > Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 01:15:05 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 > X-Accept-Language: en-us, en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: PsyNates Coins > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #T PsychicNathan's Deregistration Wealth Redistribution > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #S 4 > #D 1 > #R 2 > #L 1 > #C ------------------------------------------------------ > #C Assignments will be made according to this order: > #C 1:: Craig > #C 2:: Dr Ducker > #C 3:: Josh > #C 4:: unlin_e > #C ------------------------------------------------------ > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPthkhz8NitsTFjcVAQH0lAP/UXdZCqmZYohi7nEjFGI1957IFN5mzil5 e4/0qb9MVL2Jg2OyVmPyZ+9mda5nCwBHmsXmD7KzhHkAcOqzAUJRsrYmd01HBXsv +cNeU94x8OzDLhEuPH0TSjR4yzUFIEQReyqg0/JdNXGvYPj30bjYh1BTVSUDBKgM LkgB2+U64QU= =1lTL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------010401060900070204070601 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-------- Original Message --------
From: - Sat May 31 01:15:51 2003
X-UIDL: 839HeEiPD0710M08
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from cmsmail08.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.8] by cmsmail08.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.06H) with ESMTP id 839HeEiPD0710M08; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:15:04 GMT
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Date: 31 May 2003 08:15:03 -0000
Message-ID: <20030531081503.1525.qmail@n...>
From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server)
Subject: PsychicNathan's Deregistration Wealth Redistribution
X-Loop: 1
To: Doctor Ducker <drduck@u...>
Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com
X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo
X-POPFile-Link: <http://127.0.0.1:8080/jump_to_message?view=popfile14165=1.msg> 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker <drduck@u...>
Rolls also sent to:
thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com

# ------------------------------------------------------
# Assignments will be made according to this order:
# 1:: Craig
# 2:: Dr Ducker
# 3:: Josh
# 4:: unlin_e
# ------------------------------------------------------

No. of sides on every die: 4
No. of dice for every roll: 1
No. of dice rolls requested: 2
No. of rolls per line: 1

1
2

Information on the dice server:
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.

For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
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Original message follows:
> Return-Path: <drduck@u...>
> Delivered-To: dice@p...
> Received: (qmail 1477 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 08:14:55 -0000
> Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39)
> by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 08:14:55 -0000
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> Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8)
> by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 08:14:54 -0000
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> by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4V8EsB01834
> for <dice@p...>; Sat, 31 May 2003 01:14:54 -0700
> X-envelope-info: <drduck@u...>
> Message-ID: <3ED86489.8040108@u...>
> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 01:15:05 -0700
> From: Doctor Ducker <drduck@u...>
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509
> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: Dice Server <dice@p...>
> Subject: PsyNates Coins
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> #T PsychicNathan's Deregistration Wealth Redistribution
> #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com
> #S 4
> #D 1
> #R 2
> #L 1
> #C ------------------------------------------------------
> #C Assignments will be made according to this order:
> #C 1:: Craig
> #C 2:: Dr Ducker
> #C 3:: Josh
> #C 4:: unlin_e
> #C ------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

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--------------010401060900070204070601-- From drduck@u... Sat May 31 03:18:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65126 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 10:18:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 10:18:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 10:18:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 16105 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 10:18:53 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 10:18:53 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4VAIrL30084 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 03:18:53 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED8819B.8020405@u...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 03:19:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan References: <3ED7E682.9020405@u...> <3ED85191.2040006@o...> <3ED874A0.4040007@u...> In-Reply-To: <3ED874A0.4040007@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: > Nathan McCoy wrote: > >>Doctor Ducker wrote: >> >> >>>You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon as it's passed. >>> >>>P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) >>> >>> >>> >> >>So does that mean I need to wait for a virtual antiPsychicNathan to fall into a black hole before I can become real by means of Hawking radiation, then? >> >> > > Well I'm not sure about the black hole, but you did briefly *Pop* into > existence with a shower of Coins, and a few new rules, and then *Pop* > again, out of existence. Sorry about the timing thing there. I > didn't notice the problem until I sent the above message. > > Anyway, currently PsychicNathan is not a registered player. However, > in es brief existence e did manage to gather 3 Coins, one of which was > destroyed upon es deregistration, the other two were reassigned to > Craig and Dr Ducker (I'll be forwarding the dice server email seperately). > > PsychicNathan's registration also reset the Therms to 0, and gave > everybody a coin. PsychicNathan, I think you might want to try something real simple like: Create two coins, each in the possession of a randomly selected player. Destroy this Proposal. I think if you managed to get this in quickly, you just might get everyone to vote on it by Monday, and thus not have to worry about whether you've posted in time. It's also not likely to get voted down. From ragnarok@p... Sat May 31 07:31:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4818 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 14:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 14:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 14:31:19 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACB52B2100D6; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:31:17 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:31:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ED874A0.4040007@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Anyway, currently PsychicNathan is not a registered player. However, in es brief existence e did manage to gather 3 Coins, one of which was >destroyed upon es deregistration, the other two were reassigned to Craig and Dr Ducker (I'll be forwarding the dice server email >seperately). E never registerd. Unlin_e has yet to vote. From ragnarok@p... Sat May 31 07:33:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48199 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 14:33:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 14:33:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 14:33:25 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD342F5F0094; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:33:24 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:33:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ED8819B.8020405@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >PsychicNathan, I think you might want to try something real simple like: But eir registration prop cannot fail, and yet I don't think it has expired= yet. Not all votes are in. Oh, wait, it's been a week. Of course. But e posted on eir last day to do s= o, so I think e's clear. From drduck@u... Sat May 31 07:43:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91989 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 14:43:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 14:43:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 14:43:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 13936 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 14:43:01 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 31 May 2003 14:43:01 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h4VEh1C31693 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:43:01 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED8BF88.1050207@u...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:43:20 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > > Anyway, currently PsychicNathan is not a registered player. > > However, in es brief existence e did manage to gather 3 Coins, one > > of which was >destroyed upon es deregistration, the other two were > > reassigned to Craig and Dr Ducker (I'll be forwarding the dice > > server email seperately). > > > E never registerd. Unlin_e has yet to vote. Actually, at 6:10 this morning (on the Yahoo clock) his registration proposal had ben existant for 1 week, and therefore according to 5.7 it expired. It had at that point received two FOR votes, (one from you, one from me), and no AGAINST votes. Therefore, it passed... > But eir registration prop cannot fail, and yet I don't think it has > expired yet. Not all votes are in. Oh, wait, it's been a week. Of > course. But e posted on eir last day to do so, so I think e's clear. Actually, check the message times for message 575 (where the proposal is) and 593 (the message you're referring to). You'll see that e was about 2 hours late... Yeah, it's annoying. From ragnarok@p... Sat May 31 07:53:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72339 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 14:53:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 14:53:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 14:53:19 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1DD2B340096; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:53:17 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:53:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ED8BF88.1050207@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> But eir registration prop cannot fail, and yet I don't think it has >> expired yet. Not all votes are in. Oh, wait, it's been a week. Of >> course. But e posted on eir last day to do so, so I think e's clear. >Actually, check the message times for message 575 (where the proposal >is) and 593 (the message you're referring to). You'll see that e was >about 2 hours late... Yeah, it's annoying. Ooh. That sucks. From nmccoy@o... Sat May 31 08:28:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56356 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 15:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 15:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 15:28:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 11010 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 15:28:32 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 15:28:32 -0000 Message-ID: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:18:28 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Doh! One more try... X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan Create two coins, each in the possession of a randomly selected player. Destroy this Proposal. From ragnarok@p... Sat May 31 09:20:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86356 invoked from network); 31 May 2003 16:20:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 May 2003 16:20:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2003 16:20:56 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A66719D1009A; Sat, 31 May 2003 12:20:55 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Doh! One more try... Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:20:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > >Create two coins, each in the possession of a randomly selected player. >Destroy this Proposal. > Now, I could easily be irritating and wait a week to vote on this. But I won't. FOR. From drduck@u... Sat May 31 17:23:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45465 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 00:23:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2003 00:23:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 00:23:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 30589 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 00:23:55 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 00:23:55 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h510NXR24052 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 17:23:33 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED947A3.30504@u...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:24:03 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan References: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Friday 30 May 2003 11:21 pm, Craig wrote: > > >>>>You probably want to make sure you've posted a message before your >>>>registration proposal passes. Otherwise you'll be deregistered as soon >>>>as it's passed. >>>> >>>>P.S. kind of reminds me of the "virtual particle" concept... ;) >>>> >>>> >>>Hm - what rules cause this? I'd like to reregister, and this sounds like a >>>good thing to fix in a registration prop. >>> >>> >>7.2. The wording is odd, so it isn't clear if that is really the case. But >>it is more likely than the interpretation that you have to have been a >>player for a week; definitely fertile grounds for a rewrite. >> >> > >Okay. I propose as a registration prop: >Destroy rule 7.2 >Create: >7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a >message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. > >Create a Coin in the possession of bd. >- -- > I vote FOR this proposal. From drduck@u... Sat May 31 17:24:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15853 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 00:24:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2003 00:24:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 00:24:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 30863 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 00:24:54 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 00:24:54 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h510O1R24256 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 17:24:01 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3ED947BF.1060607@u...> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:24:31 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Doh! One more try... References: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> In-Reply-To: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Nathan McCoy wrote: > >Create two coins, each in the possession of a randomly selected player. >Destroy this Proposal. > > I vote FOR this proposal. From cortex@n... Sat May 31 18:29:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2045 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 01:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2003 01:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 01:29:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 23098 invoked by uid 1006); 1 Jun 2003 01:29:02 -0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 21:29:02 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Doh! One more try... Message-ID: <20030531212902.A23090@a...> References: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...>; from nmccoy@o... on Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:18:28AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:18:28AM -0700, Nathan McCoy keyboarded: > > Create two coins, each in the possession of a randomly selected player. > Destroy this Proposal. > Something clever involving the word FOR. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Sat May 31 19:59:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99174 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 02:59:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2003 02:59:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 02:59:17 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC09309300E4; Sat, 31 May 2003 22:59:21 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Doh! One more try... Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:59:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl OK, we're almost there. And don't worry, if e doesn't vote, unlin_e expires before the proposal. From drduck@u... Mon Jun 02 05:13:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66508 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 12:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2003 12:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 12:13:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 21765 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 12:13:05 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 12:13:05 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h52CD5F27955 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:13:05 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EDB3F95.7040406@u...> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 05:14:13 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: ATTN: unlin_e; De-Registration Approaches Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 unlin_e, you have a little under thirty hours before you are deregistered. Please respond with a post soon (preferably including your votes on the two pending proposals), or face being removed from existence... ;) From unlin_e@y... Mon Jun 02 11:58:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78895 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 18:58:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2003 18:58:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11410.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.221) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 18:58:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602185851.17076.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11410.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:58:51 PDT Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] Doh! One more try... To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3ED8C7C4.4070309@o...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Nathan McCoy wrote: > > Create two coins, each in the possession of a randomly selected player. > Destroy this Proposal. > > unlin_e is FOR this. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From unlin_e@y... Mon Jun 02 12:01:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: unlin_e@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12933 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 19:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2003 19:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web11402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.131.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 19:01:14 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602190114.82933.qmail@w...> Received: from [134.193.136.181] by web11402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:01:14 PDT Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Thermo] ATTN: unlin_e; De-Registration Approaches To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3EDB3F95.7040406@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: sonof X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=34321186 X-Yahoo-Profile: unlin_e --- Doctor Ducker wrote: > unlin_e, you have a little under thirty hours before you are deregistered. > > Please respond with a post soon (preferably including your votes on the > two pending proposals), or face being removed from existence... ;) > Ok, unlin_e is also FOR proposal 41. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From drduck@u... Tue Jun 03 02:05:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38925 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 09:05:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2003 09:05:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 09:05:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 15537 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 09:05:06 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 09:05:06 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h53956b04009 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 02:05:06 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EDC651F.7040005@u...> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 02:06:39 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Passage of PsychicNathan's Registration Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 At 7:58pm on June 2, 2003, Proposal 42 passed, thus: Proposal 42 created 2 coins in possession of random players. These have been assigned to myself, and Josh, per the dice server (Email to be forwarded seperately). Proposal 42 also established that PsychicNathan is now a registered player. I would encourage PsychicNathan to vote on prop 41, so we can get it dealt with as well. (Note: Prop 41 can only pass) Per rule 10.6, I, as Speaker, and PsychicNathan each received a Coin from The Bank. Note: unlin_e's vote on proposal 41, has not expired it due to the fact that this vote was cast at 8:01pm, three minutes after the last vote on prop 42, thus meaning that that PsychicNathan may validly vote on prop 41... From drduck@u... Tue Jun 03 02:05:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54978 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 09:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2003 09:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 09:05:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 16066 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 09:05:27 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 09:05:27 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5395Rb04113 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 02:05:27 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EDC6533.30702@u...> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 02:06:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Two Coins created by PsychicNathan's Registration proposal passage] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 -------- Original Message -------- From: - Tue Jun 3 01:44:16 2003 X-UIDL: 303HFciQm1273M08 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from cmsmail08.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.8] by cmsmail08.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.06H) with ESMTP id 303HFciQm1273M08; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 08:42:13 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail08.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Tue, 03 Jun 2003 08:42:12 GMT Received: (qmail 27698 invoked by uid 951); 3 Jun 2003 08:42:12 -0000 Date: 3 Jun 2003 08:42:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20030603084212.27697.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Two Coins created by PsychicNathan's Registration proposal passage X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # -------------------------------------------------- # 1 - Craig # 2 - Dr Ducker # 3 - Josh # 4 - unlin_e # -------------------------------------------------- No. of sides on every die: 4 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 2 No. of rolls per line: 1 2 3 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 27674 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 08:42:09 -0000 > Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 08:42:09 -0000 > Received: (qmail 9118 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 08:42:09 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 08:42:09 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h538g9b15883 > for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 01:42:09 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Message-ID: <3EDC5FBD.6050608@u...> > Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 01:43:41 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 > X-Accept-Language: en-us, en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: PsyNathan's reg prop coins > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #T Two Coins created by PsychicNathan's Registration proposal passage > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #D 1 > #S 4 > #R 2 > #L 1 > #C -------------------------------------------------- > #C 1 - Craig > #C 2 - Dr Ducker > #C 3 - Josh > #C 4 - unlin_e > #C -------------------------------------------------- > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPtxfZD8NitsTFjcVAQFzzwQAw5HE8rNNnkNNO/Kc6F0GsNOdQFTTUYkM 75VCBXUIsUkaC/vcXuqqzd70crHgC1s7aauoxCNmZ0hxb7hVuzfLKWSrgVjFhnfQ D/nazJ6htzPO5n3LWJ3yu9RiQDkuYWLEFqO3hvf8zygfUfcesH4npH2lUsrbgUkT YgwZ/VlTL+8= =z+7m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nmccoy@o... Tue Jun 03 18:14:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41726 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2003 01:14:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2003 01:14:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2003 01:14:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 4781 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2003 01:13:46 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2003 01:13:46 -0000 Message-ID: <3EDD456A.8090002@o...> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:03:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: PsychicNathan References: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200305302328.33843.bdonlan@b...> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan bd wrote: > Okay. I propose as a registration prop: > Destroy rule 7.2 > Create: > 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a > message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. > > Create a Coin in the possession of bd. I vote FOR this, for obvious reasons. From drduck@u... Wed Jun 04 02:33:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97597 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2003 09:33:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2003 09:33:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2003 09:33:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 20452 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2003 09:33:02 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2003 09:33:02 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h549X2604864 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:33:02 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EDDBD48.1050707@u...> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:35:04 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Passage of Prop 41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 At 2:03am on June 4, 2003, Proposal 41 passed. This rendered bd once more a registered player. E has until 2:03am on June 11, to post to the mailing list in order that e not be deregistered once again. The Speaker and bd each recieved a Coin from The Bank for the passage of a proposal. The ruleset has been updated to reflect the new rule within prop 41, and the Therms have been updated (to 4) to reflect the rule which was destroyed by prop 41. From drduck@u... Fri Jun 06 15:48:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52983 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2003 22:48:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2003 22:48:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2003 22:48:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 14495 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2003 22:48:18 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2003 22:48:18 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h56MmIr04270 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:48:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE11AF2.3080507@u...> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:51:30 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Attn: Craig & Josh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 You each have less than about thirty hours in which to post or face destruction and deregistration. From cortex@n... Fri Jun 06 16:17:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17091 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2003 23:17:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2003 23:17:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2003 23:17:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 13080 invoked by uid 1006); 6 Jun 2003 23:17:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 19:17:58 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Attn: Craig & Josh Message-ID: <20030606191758.A13072@a...> References: <3EE11AF2.3080507@u...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EE11AF2.3080507@u...>; from drduck@u... on Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:51:30PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:51:30PM -0700, Doctor Ducker keyboarded: > You each have less than about thirty hours in which to post or face > destruction and deregistration. I am nigh invulnerable! Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From bdonlan@b... Fri Jun 06 17:55:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96909 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 00:55:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 00:55:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 00:55:47 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h570tkpn015067 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6856714E137; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:55:44 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: We need action Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:55:40 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306062055.43232.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ether someone should think up a good modification, or we should scrap the=20 thermo idea - things seem to be stagnating. - --=20 bd You will have a long and boring life. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+4TgOx533NjVSos4RAliKAKC/6GGNLOerRWoycYvINpLsiCCVQgCfSSPo zGd01N3Jl8JzpN79BIowjow=3D =3DK5oh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Fri Jun 06 19:31:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82653 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:31:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 02:31:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:31:22 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE7F1842004E; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:31:27 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Attn: Craig & Josh Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:31:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE11AF2.3080507@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >You each have less than about thirty hours in which to post or face >destruction and deregistration. I'm afraid that's simply unacceptable. From ragnarok@p... Fri Jun 06 19:35:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47262 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:35:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 02:35:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:35:31 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF781F201F6; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:35:36 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:35:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200306062055.43232.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Ether someone should think up a good modification, or we should scrap the >thermo idea - things seem to be stagnating. There's no such thing as ether. Anyway, perhaps it's time for the game to evolve out of its original thermodynamic idea. I always assumed it would one day, and am frankly surprised at how long it's lasted. A related proposal: Rule 4.0 is repealed. Now, let's see, what to do with that Thing I've now got the right to create... I know! Craig receives one Coin. Hmm... Destroy this proposal. Craig receives another Coin. And, because I can: Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. Craig receives another Coin. From ragnarok@p... Fri Jun 06 19:35:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40119 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:35:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 02:35:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:35:56 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF9219C01DE; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:36:02 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:36:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > FOR, btw From nmccoy@o... Fri Jun 06 19:42:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8997 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:42:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 02:42:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:42:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 15086 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:40:24 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:40:24 -0000 Message-ID: <3EE14E3A.50300@o...> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:30:18 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action References: <200306062055.43232.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200306062055.43232.bdonlan@b...> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan bd wrote: > Ether someone should think up a good modification, or we should scrap the > thermo idea - things seem to be stagnating. Very well, then. Create a new group of rules entitled "WINNING THE GAME", and containing rule 16: "Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player wins the game." Destroy this proposal. From ragnarok@p... Fri Jun 06 19:51:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84720 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 02:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:51:37 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A33E37026E; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:51:42 -0400 To: Subject: The Potato Problem Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:51:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new potatoes. From ragnarok@p... Fri Jun 06 19:58:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24497 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 02:58:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 02:58:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 02:58:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4EB1602A4; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:58:51 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:58:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE14E3A.50300@o...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > >Create a new group of rules entitled "WINNING THE GAME", and containing rule 16: >"Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which >point that player wins the game." >Destroy this proposal. > For. I also submit the following proposal, designed to stop such a victory from ending the game by preventing others from winning while still recognizing winners: If there is no group of rules headed WINNING THE GAME, then ignore this proposal. Otherwise: Create a rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than the highest number of a rule in that group but lower than the lowest number of a rule not in that group whose number exceeds that of the highest number that is in the group. If you can understand that. It shall have the text: There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called the Winner. Destroy rule 16 and replace it with a new rule 16.0 with the following text: Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable of owning Coins. From ragnarok@p... Fri Jun 06 20:13:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62125 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 03:13:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 03:13:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 03:13:09 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A84A6901FA; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 23:13:14 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:13:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > I forgot to add the "destroy this proposal" and I forgot about the office-creation precedent. I therefore submit take two: If there is no group of rules headed WINNING THE GAME, then ignore this proposal. Otherwise: Create a rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than the highest number of a rule in that group but lower than the lowest number of a rule not in that group whose number exceeds that of the highest number that is in the group. If you can understand that. It shall have the text: There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called the Winner. Destroy rule 16 and replace it with a new rule 16.0 with the following text: Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable of owning Coins. Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. Destroy this proposal. And I'm FOR it. From bdonlan@b... Sat Jun 07 04:19:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6446 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 11:19:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 11:19:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.153) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 11:19:06 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h57BJ5ik027212 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FD1514E137; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:19:04 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:19:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306070719.04241.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 06 June 2003 10:35 pm, Craig wrote: > >Ether someone should think up a good modification, or we should scrap th= e > >thermo idea - things seem to be stagnating. > > There's no such thing as ether. > Anyway, perhaps it's time for the game to evolve out of its original > thermodynamic idea. I always assumed it would one day, and am frankly > surprised at how long it's lasted. A related proposal: > > > Rule 4.0 is repealed. > > Now, let's see, what to do with that Thing I've now got the right to > create... > I know! > > Craig receives one Coin. > > Hmm... > Destroy this proposal. > Craig receives another Coin. > > And, because I can: > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > Craig receives another Coin. > FOR - --=20 bd Se tens a l=EDngua comprida, =E9 bom que tenhas o lombo duro. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+4coox533NjVSos4RAvMcAJwPFxM5K6V/oL3bs3yGRUwCj+ddxACbBuGn TDQdp+BjPHM8Vk8P9QIitqg=3D =3DxlBL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Sat Jun 07 04:19:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78025 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 11:19:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 11:19:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.153) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 11:19:45 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h57BJiik027531 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9A38714E137; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:19:44 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:19:43 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200306062055.43232.bdonlan@b...> <3EE14E3A.50300@o...> In-Reply-To: <3EE14E3A.50300@o...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306070719.44088.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 06 June 2003 10:30 pm, Nathan McCoy wrote: > bd wrote: > > Ether someone should think up a good modification, or we should scrap t= he > > thermo idea - things seem to be stagnating. > > Very well, then. > > > Create a new group of rules entitled "WINNING THE GAME", and containing > rule 16: "Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a > win, at which point that player wins the game." > Destroy this proposal. > FOR - --=20 bd God, I ask for patience -- and I want it right now! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+4cpQx533NjVSos4RAuKwAJ9fWTdp0iN7Bg6YeJzP8XMsvcmH9gCggnma +7rYnic3ipufchWI+rs/sdE=3D =3DhVVV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Sat Jun 07 04:20:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23849 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 11:20:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 11:20:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 11:20:30 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h57BKTpn025145 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4678E14E137; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:20:29 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:20:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306070720.28740.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 06 June 2003 10:58 pm, Craig wrote: > > > >Create a new group of rules entitled "WINNING THE GAME", and containing > > rule 16: > >"Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at > > which > > >point that player wins the game." > >Destroy this proposal. > > > > For. I also submit the following proposal, designed to stop such a victor= y > from ending the game by preventing others from winning while still > recognizing winners: > > > If there is no group of rules headed WINNING THE GAME, then ignore this > proposal. Otherwise: > > Create a rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than the highes= t > number of a rule in that group but lower than the lowest number of a rule > not in that group whose number exceeds that of the highest number that is > in the group. If you can understand that. It shall have the text: > There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called t= he > Winner. > > Destroy rule 16 and replace it with a new rule 16.0 with the following > text: Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win= , > at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all > of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capab= le > of owning Coins. > FOR - --=20 bd If life is a stage, I want some better lighting. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+4cp8x533NjVSos4RAv2dAKCQ/hddYGBPtYbT2n+iV1Uz9T10ZQCfbbse Qr4V3rB1e2iB8q4kqcgXwj0=3D =3DoFLY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Sat Jun 07 04:21:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69126 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 11:21:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 11:21:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.153) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 11:21:07 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h57BL3ik028297 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BEA3614E137; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:21:01 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:21:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306070721.01375.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 06 June 2003 11:13 pm, Craig wrote: > > > > I forgot to add the "destroy this proposal" and I forgot about the > office-creation precedent. > I therefore submit take two: > > > If there is no group of rules headed WINNING THE GAME, then ignore this > proposal. Otherwise: > > Create a rule in the group OFFICES whose number is higher than the highes= t > number of a rule in that group but lower than the lowest number of a rule > not in that group whose number exceeds that of the highest number that is > in the group. If you can understand that. It shall have the text: > There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called t= he > Winner. > > Destroy rule 16 and replace it with a new rule 16.0 with the following > text: Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win= , > at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all > of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capab= le > of owning Coins. > > Destroy one Coin belonging to Craig. > Destroy this proposal. > > > And I'm FOR it. FOR - --=20 bd Ada, the only language written to milspec. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+4cqdx533NjVSos4RAvQfAJ0Q62s4YfxhygNe2mS5YZJ7Q4b+VQCeMLgl 0oqBoP/6Gwa1Cq+L3fdZOqg=3D =3D5nfA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Sat Jun 07 05:17:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22275 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 12:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 12:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 12:17:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 1032 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 12:17:27 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 12:17:27 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h57CHQ022079 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 05:17:26 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE1D8A6.7030805@u...> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 05:20:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action References: <200306070720.28740.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200306070720.28740.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Friday 06 June 2003 10:58 pm, Craig wrote: > > >>> >>>Create a new group of rules entitled "WINNING THE GAME", and containing >>> >>> < snip > >>Destroy rule 16 and replace it with a new rule 16.0 with the following >>text: Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, >>at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all >>of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable >>of owning Coins. >> >> >> > >FOR >- -- >bd > > I've registered the various votes from Craig and bd, on these newer proposals, as they're the only ones yet to cast eir votes. However eir votes with regard to this particualr proposal (wins don't end it), are not noted as this proposal is in violation of the Three Sacred Laws. Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information pages? From cortex@n... Sat Jun 07 07:12:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76315 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 14:12:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 14:12:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 14:12:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 15349 invoked by uid 1006); 7 Jun 2003 14:12:43 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:12:43 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action Message-ID: <20030607101243.A15338@a...> References: <200306062055.43232.bdonlan@b...> <3EE14E3A.50300@o...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EE14E3A.50300@o...>; from nmccoy@o... on Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 07:30:18PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 07:30:18PM -0700, Nathan McCoy keyboarded: > > > Create a new group of rules entitled "WINNING THE GAME", and containing rule 16: > "Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which > point that player wins the game." > Destroy this proposal. > FOR, by gum. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Sat Jun 07 08:56:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17357 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 15:56:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 15:56:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 15:56:03 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AB142E00226; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:56:04 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:56:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE1D8A6.7030805@u...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >pages? My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about the popups. From bdonlan@b... Sat Jun 07 08:59:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60556 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 15:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 15:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 15:59:13 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h57Fx4pn024213 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CFF3214E137; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:58:57 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:58:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306071158.56570.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 07 June 2003 11:56 am, Craig wrote: > >Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information > >pages? > > My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about th= e > popups. Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? - --=20 bd Ah, but a man's grasp should exceed his reach,=20 Or what's a heaven for ? -- Robert Browning, "Andrea del Sarto" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+4gvAx533NjVSos4RAkYlAKCKEG6+1pCJwZRrgXVJKLHX0S1yHwCeKDY5 2WJzNlDwQWNNgCr1m1XXGYA=3D =3DX4Dq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sat Jun 07 09:03:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15077 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 16:03:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 16:03:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 16:03:38 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACDB2F70226; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 12:03:39 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 12:03:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200306071158.56570.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >> >pages? >> >> My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about the >> popups. >Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? Ooh. Good idea. And here I was just complaining about Geoshitties. From drduck@u... Sat Jun 07 15:38:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41660 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 22:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 22:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 22:38:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 3708 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 22:38:57 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 22:38:57 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h57McvK02385 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:38:57 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE26A5C.4090109@u...> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 15:42:36 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: >>>>Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >>>>pages? >>>> >>>> >>>My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about >>> >>> >the > > >>>popups. >>> >>> > > > >>Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? >> >> > >Ooh. Good idea. And here I was just complaining about Geoshitties. > > > > Actually, it's my bad... I had forgotten to include the double hidden span tags at the end of each page. I've rectified it on the site, and in my local templates. This is of course, assuming that your talking about the little yahoo/geocities branded micro-windows and not some more insidious kind of popup. If it is actually something more like that, then all I can say is, get a better browser (Mozilla, Opera can both deal with these). From ragnarok@p... Sat Jun 07 15:53:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15818 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 22:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 22:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 22:53:54 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD063F01A8; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:53:58 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:53:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE26A5C.4090109@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>>>>Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >>>>>pages? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about >>>> >>>> >>the >> >> >>>>popups. >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >>>Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? >>> >>> >> >>Ooh. Good idea. And here I was just complaining about Geoshitties. >> >> >> >> >Actually, it's my bad... I had forgotten to include the double hidden >span tags at the end of each page. I've rectified it on the site, and >in my local templates. >This is of course, assuming that your talking about the little >yahoo/geocities branded micro-windows and not some more insidious kind >of popup. If it is actually something more like that, then all I can >say is, get a better browser (Mozilla, Opera can both deal with these). I mean the kind where it opens a window about FREE INTERNET WASHER PRO or some such nonsense. But I don't care enough about either those or the horrific privacy invasions to install anything other than Explorer. My feeling about most of the web is, if you can't be bothered to make a page that doesn't irritate any visitors, then I don't need to look at it. From drduck@u... Sat Jun 07 16:03:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27124 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 23:03:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 23:03:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 23:03:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 10691 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 23:03:52 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 23:03:52 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h57N3q817665 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 16:03:52 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE27034.8060700@u...> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 16:07:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: >>>>>>Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >>>>>>pages? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>popups. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Ooh. Good idea. And here I was just complaining about Geoshitties. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Actually, it's my bad... I had forgotten to include the double hidden >>span tags at the end of each page. I've rectified it on the site, and >>in my local templates. >> >> > > > >>This is of course, assuming that your talking about the little >>yahoo/geocities branded micro-windows and not some more insidious kind >>of popup. If it is actually something more like that, then all I can >>say is, get a better browser (Mozilla, Opera can both deal with these). >> >> > >I mean the kind where it opens a window about FREE INTERNET WASHER PRO or >some such nonsense. But I don't care enough about either those or the >horrific privacy invasions to install anything other than Explorer. My >feeling about most of the web is, if you can't be bothered to make a page >that doesn't irritate any visitors, then I don't need to look at it. > > I guess my take on it is, that I don't see those because of my browser, and at least for me, Explorer isn't an option (I'm on Linux), so I guess I'm kinda spoiled that way. I would recommend to you to at least try out Opera. It's a smallish download, has better standards compliance than IE, will always be a stand-alone component, works extremely fast, etc. Mozilla is by far a better browser than Opera, but it is a beast of a download ;) As far as *my* making a site which doesn't irritate visitors, I've done what I can to reduce it, but what's occurring is geocities adding code onto the end of my pages. The only active thing I've done is choosing geocities, and that was primarily due to the fact that I could be lazy and only have to log into the Yahoo system once for all things Thermo. I'll gladly work with another site if you can point it out to me. From drduck@u... Sat Jun 07 16:25:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81651 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 21303 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2003 23:25:09 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h57NP9K30938 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 16:25:09 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE27531.6000306@u...> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 16:28:49 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] We need action References: <3EE27034.8060700@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EE27034.8060700@u...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Doctor Ducker wrote: >Craig wrote: > > > >>>>>>>Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >>>>>>>pages? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>popups. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Ooh. Good idea. And here I was just complaining about Geoshitties. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Actually, it's my bad... I had forgotten to include the double hidden >>>span tags at the end of each page. I've rectified it on the site, and >>>in my local templates. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>This is of course, assuming that your talking about the little >>>yahoo/geocities branded micro-windows and not some more insidious kind >>>of popup. If it is actually something more like that, then all I can >>>say is, get a better browser (Mozilla, Opera can both deal with these). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I mean the kind where it opens a window about FREE INTERNET WASHER PRO or >>some such nonsense. But I don't care enough about either those or the >>horrific privacy invasions to install anything other than Explorer. My >>feeling about most of the web is, if you can't be bothered to make a page >>that doesn't irritate any visitors, then I don't need to look at it. >> >> >> >> >I guess my take on it is, that I don't see those because of my browser, >and at least for me, Explorer isn't an option (I'm on Linux), so I guess >I'm kinda spoiled that way. > >I would recommend to you to at least try out Opera. It's a smallish >download, has better standards compliance than IE, will always be a >stand-alone component, works extremely fast, etc. Mozilla is by far a >better browser than Opera, but it is a beast of a download ;) > >As far as *my* making a site which doesn't irritate visitors, I've done >what I can to reduce it, but what's occurring is geocities adding code >onto the end of my pages. The only active thing I've done is choosing >geocities, and that was primarily due to the fact that I could be lazy >and only have to log into the Yahoo system once for all things Thermo. >I'll gladly work with another site if you can point it out to me. > > P.S. I've also added some extra code, which I hope can cancel the popup javascript, but I'm not sure. Please let me know if it worked or not. From ragnarok@p... Sat Jun 07 19:53:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92264 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 02:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 02:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 02:53:17 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A52214001E2; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:53:22 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] We need action Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 22:53:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE27034.8060700@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>>>>>>Also, what do people think of the new layout/style of the information >>>>>>>pages? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>My only complaint is that there is no way for you to do anything about >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>popups. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Maybe we should ask for hosting on nomic.net? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Ooh. Good idea. And here I was just complaining about Geoshitties. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Actually, it's my bad... I had forgotten to include the double hidden >>>span tags at the end of each page. I've rectified it on the site, and >>>in my local templates. >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>This is of course, assuming that your talking about the little >>>yahoo/geocities branded micro-windows and not some more insidious kind >>>of popup. If it is actually something more like that, then all I can >>>say is, get a better browser (Mozilla, Opera can both deal with these). >>> >>> >> >>I mean the kind where it opens a window about FREE INTERNET WASHER PRO or >>some such nonsense. But I don't care enough about either those or the >>horrific privacy invasions to install anything other than Explorer. My >>feeling about most of the web is, if you can't be bothered to make a page >>that doesn't irritate any visitors, then I don't need to look at it. >> >> >I guess my take on it is, that I don't see those because of my browser, >and at least for me, Explorer isn't an option (I'm on Linux), so I guess >I'm kinda spoiled that way. >I would recommend to you to at least try out Opera. It's a smallish >download, has better standards compliance than IE, will always be a >stand-alone component, works extremely fast, etc. Mozilla is by far a >better browser than Opera, but it is a beast of a download ;) >As far as *my* making a site which doesn't irritate visitors, I've done >what I can to reduce it, but what's occurring is geocities adding code >onto the end of my pages. The only active thing I've done is choosing >geocities, and that was primarily due to the fact that I could be lazy >and only have to log into the Yahoo system once for all things Thermo. >I'll gladly work with another site if you can point it out to me. Hence my complaining about Geocities rather than about you. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 08 00:50:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 41684 invoked by uid 7800); 8 Jun 2003 07:50:50 -0000 Date: 8 Jun 2003 07:50:50 -0000 Message-ID: <1055058650.2149682.96689.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ::: THERMODYNOMIC 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. Comment: ::: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. ::: SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. ::: THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. ::: THE RULESET 4 A rule is a single sentence. 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. ::: PROPOSALS 5 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. 5.9 If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. 5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. 5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. 5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. 5.991 The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. ::: CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. ::: DEREGISTRATION 7 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. ::: REGISTRATION 8 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. ::: THINGS 9 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. ::: OFFICES 10 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. 10.6 Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. 10.7 Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.8 Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. ::: JUDGEMENT 11 Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.01 A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. 11.7 A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: APPEALS 12 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. 12.566 The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. 12.6 An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: PAST JUDGEMENTS 13 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. 15.001 It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. 15.002 Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored. 15.003 Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 15.004 There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. 15.005 For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. 15.006 The proposal, known as "Proposal 3", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:16pm by unlin_e, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . 15.007 Rule 7.3 did not destroy any points upon Josh's deregistration of April 10, 2003, as there was nothing to destroy. Comment: ::: POTATOES 15 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. From drduck@u... Sun Jun 08 03:17:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73006 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 10:17:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 10:17:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 10:17:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 29715 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 10:17:25 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 10:17:25 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h58AHJU11852 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 03:17:21 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE30E13.1050103@u...> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 03:21:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: >Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. >Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. >It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new >potatoes. > > Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. * wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 07:41:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35357 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 14:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 14:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 14:41:45 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AB2949701B4; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 10:41:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:41:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE30E13.1050103@u...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. >>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. >>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new >>potatoes. >Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this >very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly >flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. I propose the following: Create a Hot Potato named the Potato of Wubble Wubble in the posession of a random player. Its description shall be as follows: Whenever any player gives this Hot Potato to any other player, e must use the dice server to determine whether it activates. It shall have a twenty percent chance of doing so. If this Hot Potato activates, then one Coin belonging to the player who posesses it is transferred to the previous posessor and one Coin belonging to the player who posesses it is transferred to a random player. If this Hot Potato activates while in the posession of a player with fewer than two Coins, it shall have no effect. Destroy this proposal. From nmccoy@o... Sun Jun 08 09:10:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41756 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 16:10:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 16:10:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 16:10:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 17841 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 16:08:01 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 16:08:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3EE35D02.9090107@o...> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 08:57:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem References: <3EE30E13.1050103@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EE30E13.1050103@u...> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan Doctor Ducker wrote: > Craig wrote: > > >>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. >>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. >>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new >>potatoes. >> >> > > Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this > very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly > flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. > > * wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. Create in the posession of another player the following potato: The possessor of THE POTATO OF DOOM!! may only give THE POTATO OF DOOM!! to another entity if THE POTATO OF DOOM!! has not been given to said possessor within 24 hours prior to the attempt. When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! and its current possessor. Whenever someone posts a message that contains a string that matches "THE POTATO OF DOOM!!" but differs in case and/or punctuation, if that person has at least 1 Coin, transfer 1 Coin from that player's possession to the Bank. Destroy this proposal. From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 09:50:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14113 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 16:50:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 16:50:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 16:50:51 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A96B25501CE; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:50:51 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:50:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EE35D02.9090107@o...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Craig wrote: >> >> >>>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. >>>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. >>>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new >>>potatoes. >>> >>> >> >> Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this >> very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly >> flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. >> >> * wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. > >Create in the posession of another player the following potato: > >The possessor of THE POTATO OF DOOM!! may only give THE POTATO OF DOOM!! to >another entity if THE POTATO OF DOOM!! has not been given to said possessor >within 24 hours prior to the attempt. >When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! and its >current possessor. >Whenever someone posts a message that contains a string that matches "THE POTATO >OF DOOM!!" but differs in case and/or punctuation, if that person has at least 1 >Coin, transfer 1 Coin from that player's possession to the Bank. > >Destroy this proposal. > FORk. And just in case, I give the Potato of Displacement to PsychicNathan. From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 10:59:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20444 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 17:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 17:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 17:59:28 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9815E01F4; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 13:59:29 -0400 To: Subject: What if... Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 13:59:30 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl ...THE POTATO OF DOOM!! passes and then message 1000 is the rules? Which Hot Potato activates first? From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 11:03:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44451 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 18:03:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 18:03:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 18:03:26 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA6F1720208; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 14:03:27 -0400 To: Subject: Wubble, Wubble, toil and trouble. Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:03:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I hereby destroy the proposal Wubble Wubble. From bdonlan@b... Sun Jun 08 11:58:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35061 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h58Iw9pn009514 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 15E7314E137; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:58:07 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:58:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3EE30E13.1050103@u...> <3EE35D02.9090107@o...> In-Reply-To: <3EE35D02.9090107@o...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306081458.07233.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 June 2003 11:57 am, Nathan McCoy wrote: > Doctor Ducker wrote: > > Craig wrote: > >>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. > >>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. > >>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose ne= w > >>potatoes. > > > > Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this > > very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly > > flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. > > > > * wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. > > > Create in the posession of another player the following potato: > > The possessor of THE POTATO OF DOOM!! may only give THE POTATO OF DOOM!! = to > another entity if THE POTATO OF DOOM!! has not been given to said possess= or > within 24 hours prior to the attempt. > When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! an= d > its current possessor. > Whenever someone posts a message that contains a string that matches "THE > POTATO OF DOOM!!" but differs in case and/or punctuation, if that person > has at least 1 Coin, transfer 1 Coin from that player's possession to the > Bank. > > Destroy this proposal. > NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. - --=20 bd Lots of people drink from the wrong bottle sometimes. -- Edith Keeler, "The City on the Edge of Forever", stardate unknown -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+44c/x533NjVSos4RAu9CAKCKo+a4XdXLjHJMVAWB2xLd3qMMBwCgv2R1 wkXX9OSCD+3NMBjhayLyGYY=3D =3DTDuu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdonlan@b... Sun Jun 08 11:58:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51754 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 18:58:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 18:58:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 18:58:26 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h58IwPpn009732 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6200914E138; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:58:17 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 14:58:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306081458.16742.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 June 2003 10:41 am, Craig wrote: > >>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. > >>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. > >>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose ne= w > >>potatoes. > > > >Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this > >very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly > >flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. > > I propose the following: > > > Create a Hot Potato named the Potato of Wubble Wubble in the posession of= a > random player. Its description shall be as follows: > Whenever any player gives this Hot Potato to any other player, e must use > the dice server to determine whether it activates. It shall have a twenty > percent chance of doing so. If this Hot Potato activates, then one Coin > belonging to the player who posesses it is transferred to the previous > posessor and one Coin belonging to the player who posesses it is > transferred to a random player. If this Hot Potato activates while in the > posession of a player with fewer than two Coins, it shall have no effect. > > Destroy this proposal. > YES - --=20 bd Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+44dIx533NjVSos4RAvS0AKCEPt2/+Jzz1hle/G5Lplry8Zo7WgCgrpxI 0S0tT7MuqS0yDHmYowTywMs=3D =3D2NC2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 12:04:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87086 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 19:04:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 19:04:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 19:04:56 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8DA2B7B004E; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 15:04:58 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:04:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200306081458.07233.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. >> >>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. >> >>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new >> >>potatoes. >> > >> > Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this >> > very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly >> > flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. >> > >> > * wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. >> >> >> Create in the posession of another player the following potato: >> >> The possessor of THE POTATO OF DOOM!! may only give THE POTATO OF DOOM!! to >> another entity if THE POTATO OF DOOM!! has not been given to said possessor >> within 24 hours prior to the attempt. >> When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! and >> its current possessor. >> Whenever someone posts a message that contains a string that matches "THE >> POTATO OF DOOM!!" but differs in case and/or punctuation, if that person >> has at least 1 Coin, transfer 1 Coin from that player's possession to the >> Bank. >> >> Destroy this proposal. >> >NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. Except for eir existence. From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 12:11:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68235 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 19:11:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 19:11:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 19:11:30 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA64B101A6; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 15:11:32 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:11:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200306081458.16742.bdonlan@b...> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >YES Actually, I decided I didn't like the bit about leaving you with your only Coin if you had one but taking both if you had two. So I destroyed it. There will be a new version soon to replace it. From drduck@u... Sun Jun 08 16:30:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85660 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 23:30:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 23:30:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 23:30:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 26596 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 23:30:55 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 23:30:55 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h58NUo000872 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 16:30:53 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE3C816.4060403@u...> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 16:34:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem References: <3EE30E13.1050103@u...> <3EE35D02.9090107@o...> <200306081458.07233.bdonlan@b...> In-Reply-To: <200306081458.07233.bdonlan@b...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 bd wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Sunday 08 June 2003 11:57 am, Nathan McCoy wrote: > > >>Doctor Ducker wrote: >> >> >>>Craig wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. >>>>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. >>>>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose new >>>>potatoes. >>>> >>>> >>>Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, this >>>very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly >>>flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. >>> >>>* wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. >>> >>> >> >>Create in the posession of another player the following potato: >> >>The possessor of THE POTATO OF DOOM!! may only give THE POTATO OF DOOM!! to >>another entity if THE POTATO OF DOOM!! has not been given to said possessor >>within 24 hours prior to the attempt. >>When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! and >>its current possessor. >>Whenever someone posts a message that contains a string that matches "THE >>POTATO OF DOOM!!" but differs in case and/or punctuation, if that person >>has at least 1 Coin, transfer 1 Coin from that player's possession to the >>Bank. >> >>Destroy this proposal. >> >> >> > >NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. > > bd, please clarify. Is that an AGAINST vote? I am voting AGAINST this proposal. From drduck@u... Sun Jun 08 16:39:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57836 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 23:39:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 23:39:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 23:39:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 28743 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 23:39:07 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 23:39:07 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h58Nd0m28422 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 16:39:02 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EE3C9FF.1020209@u...> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 16:42:55 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Attn: unlin_e; Deregistration Warning Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 You have less than 20 hours remaining before deregistration. From bdonlan@b... Sun Jun 08 16:44:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12646 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2003 23:44:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2003 23:44:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2003 23:44:36 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h58NiZpn014045 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3651014E137; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:44:18 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:44:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200306081458.07233.bdonlan@b...> <3EE3C816.4060403@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EE3C816.4060403@u...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306081944.18403.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 June 2003 07:34 pm, Doctor Ducker wrote: > bd wrote: > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > >On Sunday 08 June 2003 11:57 am, Nathan McCoy wrote: > >>Doctor Ducker wrote: > >>>Craig wrote: > >>>>Right now, we have exactly one (1) Hot Potato. > >>>>Its function only means anything if there are other Hot Potatoes. > >>>>It does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must propose > >>>> new potatoes. > >>> > >>>Note, that since the ruleset has recently been posted to the list, thi= s > >>>very potato has activated. This of course means that it briefly > >>>flickered while going "wubble, wubble"* but otherwise did nothing. > >>> > >>>* wubble, wubble is something like the sound of a sawblade be shaken. > >> > >> > >>Create in the posession of another player the following potato: > >> > >>The possessor of THE POTATO OF DOOM!! may only give THE POTATO OF DOOM!= ! > >> to another entity if THE POTATO OF DOOM!! has not been given to said > >> possessor within 24 hours prior to the attempt. > >>When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! > >> and its current possessor. > >>Whenever someone posts a message that contains a string that matches "T= HE > >>POTATO OF DOOM!!" but differs in case and/or punctuation, if that perso= n > >>has at least 1 Coin, transfer 1 Coin from that player's possession to t= he > >>Bank. > >> > >>Destroy this proposal. > >> > > > >NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. > > bd, please clarify. Is that an AGAINST vote? > > I am voting AGAINST this proposal. Er. Correct, AGAINST. - --=20 bd Don't kiss an elephant on the lips today. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+48pSx533NjVSos4RAvYmAKCr0xBANBAUW/YUkI1dWxTcqNHA5QCg2me7 OYDdhI7qNjzjvRDqpQAPpi0=3D =3D1K9Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 08 20:19:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 03:19:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2003 03:19:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 03:19:02 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACAB3E1024C; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 23:19:07 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 23:19:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200306081944.18403.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >>When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! >> >> and its current possessor. >> >NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. Umm... From bdonlan@b... Mon Jun 09 09:19:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97665 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 16:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2003 16:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.153) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 16:19:29 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h59GJSik027339 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 45EAC14E137; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:19:28 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:19:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306091219.27663.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 June 2003 11:19 pm, Craig wrote: > >> >>When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM= !! > >> >> and its current possessor. > > > > >> >NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. > > Umm... Er. Didn't see that. Can I change my vote to YES? - --=20 bd When in panic, fear and doubt, Drink in barrels, eat, and shout. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+5LOPx533NjVSos4RAjMYAKCw/aJQrCjFCLVO4p2LAyemghnW+QCgzNtQ 1nCPBEMAHcRgzbr7om+XkQ4=3D =3DP/3O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Mon Jun 09 09:38:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45034 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 16:38:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2003 16:38:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 16:38:19 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A7F936FC004E; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:38:17 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] The Potato Problem Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:38:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200306091219.27663.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >> >>When message #1000 is posted to the list, destroy THE POTATO OF DOOM!! >> >> >> and its current possessor. >> >> >> >> >> >NO - the possessor dosen't lose anything by keeping it. >> >> Umm... >Er. Didn't see that. Can I change my vote to YES? No, but you can change it to FOR. (See rules 5.5 and 5.9) From ragnarok@p... Mon Jun 09 09:48:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6970 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 16:48:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2003 16:48:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 16:48:52 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA743732004E; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:48:52 -0400 To: Subject: Wubble Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:48:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I submit the following, fixed, version of the Wubbly Potato Proposal: Create a Hot Potato named the Potato of Wubble in the posession of a random player. Its description shall be as follows: Whenever any player gives this Hot Potato to any other player, e must use the dice server to determine whether it activates. It shall have a twenty percent chance of doing so. If this Hot Potato activates while in the posession of a player who has any Coins, then one Coin belonging to the player who posesses it is transferred to the previous posessor. If the new posessor still has any Coins, one Coin belonging to the player who posesses this Hot Potato is transferred to a random player. If this Hot Potato activates while in the posession of a player with no Coins, it shall have no effect. Destroy this proposal. I am FOR this second version. From bdonlan@b... Mon Jun 09 10:09:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59360 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 17:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2003 17:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 17:09:09 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h59H98pn020052 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F28D214E137; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:09:07 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Wubble Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:09:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306091309.06937.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 09 June 2003 12:48 pm, Craig wrote: > I submit the following, fixed, version of the Wubbly Potato Proposal: > > > Create a Hot Potato named the Potato of Wubble in the posession of a rand= om > player. Its description shall be as follows: > Whenever any player gives this Hot Potato to any other player, e must use > the dice server to determine whether it activates. It shall have a twenty > percent chance of doing so. If this Hot Potato activates while in the > posession of a player who has any Coins, then one Coin belonging to the > player who posesses it is transferred to the previous posessor. If the ne= w > posessor still has any Coins, one Coin belonging to the player who posess= es > this Hot Potato is transferred to a random player. If this Hot Potato > activates while in the posession of a player with no Coins, it shall have > no effect. > > Destroy this proposal. > > > I am FOR this second version. FOR - --=20 bd It's very important that all infrastructure is open source. -- Linus Torvalds -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+5L8yx533NjVSos4RApvNAKCtn6SCD6Y2ENsGU2/yOoMmnohQawCcDC9x gX+IJDfSGtPjIhZglpI5wPI=3D =3DcpQq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cortex@n... Mon Jun 09 15:58:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54338 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 22:58:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2003 22:58:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 22:58:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 24239 invoked by uid 1006); 9 Jun 2003 22:58:19 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:58:19 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Wubble Message-ID: <20030609185819.A24225@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 12:48:49PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 12:48:49PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > I submit the following, fixed, version of the Wubbly Potato Proposal: > > ... > With regards to the aFORementioned proposal, I am. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Mon Jun 09 18:48:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20707 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 01:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jun 2003 01:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2003 01:48:25 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8EE1D302A0; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:48:30 -0400 To: Subject: Wubble Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:48:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I note that H. Speaker Ducker is the only player who has not yet voted FOR "Wubble Wubble 2: Revenge of the Jiggling Saw". It therefore cannot fail. From nmccoy@o... Mon Jun 09 19:23:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93095 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 02:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jun 2003 02:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2003 02:22:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 2332 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 02:20:23 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2003 02:20:23 -0000 Message-ID: <3EE53E08.2020407@o...> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:10:16 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Votes X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan I wish to cast a vote FOR each pending proposal. From ragnarok@p... Mon Jun 09 19:27:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73947 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 02:27:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jun 2003 02:27:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2003 02:27:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2323E82004E; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:28:02 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Votes Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:27:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EE53E08.2020407@o...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Oh, right, I forgot about your registration. Sorry. From drduck@u... Sat Jun 14 17:26:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21887 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 00:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 00:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 00:26:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 23350 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 00:26:50 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 00:26:50 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5F0QnY11096 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:26:49 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EEBBEE6.5070907@u...> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:33:42 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Recent events Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 First, I'd like to appologize for the delay on some of these things. My wife is in her 8th month of pregnancy, and consequently we've been very busy. On Mon Jun 09, 2003 at 20:01, unlin_e deregistered. This also caused one of his Coins to be destroyed an the remaining four to be distributed as follows: 2 to bd, 1 to Craig, and 1 to Josh (I'll be sending the dice-server email shortly). The un-judged CFJ (#10) that had been assigned to unlin_e has now been re-assigned to PsychicNathan, as the only player who has not had a part in it yet. On Sat Jun 14, 2003 at 03:30, "How to Win" Passed. The Bank paid the Speaker and PsychicNathan each one coin, and the ruleset was updated. On Sat Jun 14, 2003 at 03:35, "limiting entropy" by Craig has Passed. The Bank paid the Speaker and Craig each one coin, and the other changes of the prop were enacted. Craig also recieved a newly created coin per rule 2.1. On Sat Jun 14, 2003 at 03:58, "wins don't end it" is destroyed per Rule 5.93. On Sat Jun 14, 2003 at 04:13, "gone with the wins" by Craig has Passed. The Bank paid the Speaker and Craig each one coin, and the other changes of the prop were enacted. Craig also recieved a newly created coin per rule 2.1. The ruleset.txt file on yahoogroups is currently up-to-date. From drduck@u... Sat Jun 14 17:27:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97422 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 00:27:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 00:27:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 00:27:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 23706 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 00:27:16 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 00:27:16 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5F0RFY11356 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:27:15 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EEBBEFF.2090202@u...> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:34:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Four Coins to be Redistributed due to unlin_e's Deregistration] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 -------- Original Message -------- From: - Fri Jun 13 15:25:53 2003 X-UIDL: 915HFmwso0391M09 X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from cmsmail09.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.9] by cmsmail09.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.06H) with ESMTP id 915HFmwso0391M09; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:18:15 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail09.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.05C); Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:18:14 GMT Received: (qmail 2569 invoked by uid 951); 13 Jun 2003 22:18:12 -0000 Date: 13 Jun 2003 22:18:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20030613221812.2568.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Four Coins to be Redistributed due to unlin_e's Deregistration X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # -------------------------------------------------- # 1 - bd # 2 - Craig # 3 - Dr Ducker # 4 - Josh # 5 - PsychicNathan # -------------------------------------------------- No. of sides on every die: 4 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 4 No. of rolls per line: 1 1 1 2 4 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 2471 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2003 22:17:54 -0000 > Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 13 Jun 2003 22:17:54 -0000 > Received: (qmail 10341 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2003 22:17:54 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Jun 2003 22:17:54 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5DMHk314264 > for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:17:46 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Message-ID: <3EEA4F08.6070906@u...> > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:24:08 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 > X-Accept-Language: en-us, en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: Deregistration of unlin_e > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #T Four Coins to be Redistributed due to unlin_e's Deregistration > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #D 1 > #S 4 > #R 4 > #L 1 > #C -------------------------------------------------- > #C 1 - bd > #C 2 - Craig > #C 3 - Dr Ducker > #C 4 - Josh > #C 5 - PsychicNathan > #C -------------------------------------------------- > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPupNpD8NitsTFjcVAQF6ygP+IaVZY7yVn44Y9fzF3rAa8T0O5rJVmwE7 csRJ/S3Y0JTznOE4doJoJ7danDKFDYo9HtsPoeP9cl5M9HRkbVT4dm289cTWBfsF GJT3VB9VJNLTqf/RZjuvvxrqKTe9rvEy71Ll0ZHyLvUtwRzqAPRaMs9YF5gofZjd Oy+nzBggkO0= =Wj/E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sat Jun 14 17:44:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82656 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 00:44:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 00:44:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 00:44:34 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1776DF01F2; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 20:44:39 -0400 To: Subject: Make 13 make sense Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 20:44:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl To correct what seems to be a typo in rule 13 (I don't remember how it got there for sure), we should destroy rules 13 and 13.1 and create a new rule 13 in PAST JUDGEMENTS with the text: Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the text of the Call For Judgement shall be added to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS. Its number must be higher than that of any rule already in the ruleset. Also, the judge of the CFJ may choose to amend the comment for the group. From drduck@u... Sun Jun 15 00:29:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45772 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 07:29:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 07:29:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 07:29:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 27374 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 07:29:42 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 07:29:42 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5F7Tgj03308 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 00:29:42 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EEC220B.5010203@u...> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 00:36:43 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Make 13 make sense References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Craig wrote: > >To correct what seems to be a typo in rule 13 (I don't remember how it got >there for sure), we should destroy rules 13 and 13.1 and create a new rule >13 in PAST JUDGEMENTS with the text: >Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two >weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the text of the Call For >Judgement shall be added to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS. >Its number must be higher than that of any rule already in the ruleset. >Also, the judge of the CFJ may choose to amend the comment for the group. > > > > Ya know, I'd wondered what was meant by that... I cast my vote FOR this proposal. From cortex@n... Sun Jun 15 07:36:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83717 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 14:36:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 14:36:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 14:36:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 14701 invoked by uid 1006); 15 Jun 2003 14:36:23 -0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 10:36:23 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Make 13 make sense Message-ID: <20030615103623.A14693@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 08:44:45PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 08:44:45PM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > To correct what seems to be a typo in rule 13 (I don't remember how it got > there for sure), we should destroy rules 13 and 13.1 and create a new rule > 13 in PAST JUDGEMENTS with the text: > Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two > weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the text of the Call For > Judgement shall be added to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS. > Its number must be higher than that of any rule already in the ruleset. > Also, the judge of the CFJ may choose to amend the comment for the group. > I support this with the whole of my superhuman intestinal FORtitude. Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From bdonlan@b... Sun Jun 15 08:01:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26365 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 15:01:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 15:01:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 15:01:39 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h5FF1ciY026879 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7EC8114E137; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:01:38 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Make 13 make sense Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:01:37 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306151101.37599.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 14 June 2003 08:44 pm, Craig wrote: > > To correct what seems to be a typo in rule 13 (I don't remember how it go= t > there for sure), we should destroy rules 13 and 13.1 and create a new rul= e > 13 in PAST JUDGEMENTS with the text: > Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two > weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the text of the Call For > Judgement shall be added to the ruleset in the group headed PAST > JUDGEMENTS. Its number must be higher than that of any rule already in th= e > ruleset. Also, the judge of the CFJ may choose to amend the comment for t= he > group. FOR - --=20 bd I often quote myself; it adds spice to my conversation. -- G. B. Shaw -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+7IpRx533NjVSos4RAqwDAKCVDeP87qXLU36xwZIowkXKA1unDwCgngYh C90KLwAzfcsm+jHYuzZSX80=3D =3DHPz1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 15 08:40:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39122 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 15:40:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 15:40:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 15:40:42 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A37A9CE023A; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:40:42 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Make 13 make sense Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:40:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200306151101.37599.bdonlan@b...> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> group. >FOR Oh. Yeah. Me too. FOR. From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 15 08:43:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39507 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 15:43:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 15:43:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 15:43:46 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A433944022E; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:43:47 -0400 To: Subject: This is a stickup! Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:43:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Armed Robbery with the description: Whenever any other Hot Potato activates, the posessor of the Potato of Armed Robbery shall choose another player at random and give that player all eir Coins. From ragnarok@p... Sun Jun 15 09:12:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78507 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 16:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 16:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 16:12:44 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAFC99B0236; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:12:44 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] This is a stickup! Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:12:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl > >Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Armed Robbery with the description: >Whenever any other Hot Potato activates, the posessor of the Potato of Armed >Robbery shall choose another player at random and give that player all eir >Coins. > BTW, I supFORt this proposal of mine. From bdonlan@b... Sun Jun 15 09:16:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83926 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 16:16:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 16:16:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 16:16:37 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-171-136.maine.rr.com [24.25.171.136]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h5FGGaiY025222 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 53CE314E137; Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:16:29 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] This is a stickup! Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:16:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306151216.29105.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 15 June 2003 12:12 pm, Craig wrote: > > > >Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Armed Robbery with the > > description: > >Whenever any other Hot Potato activates, the posessor of the Potato of > > Armed > > >Robbery shall choose another player at random and give that player all e= ir > >Coins. > > > > BTW, I supFORt this proposal of mine. FOR it's a jolly good prop'sal... - --=20 bd > > But IANAL, of course. > > IANAL either. My son is, but if I asked him I might get an answer I > wouldn't want to hear. "Here's my invoice." ? =3DD -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+7Jvdx533NjVSos4RAnstAJwKjMwdNhGbeQcdWSb1O9mLer7c9wCgmP5E ZIMiswn0bnWQjPWw5T9cAvw=3D =3DwBJd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nmccoy@o... Sun Jun 15 09:36:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37190 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 16:36:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 16:36:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.17) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 16:36:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 15969 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 16:33:08 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp2.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 16:33:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3EEC9D58.1060607@o...> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 09:22:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Recent events References: <3EEBBEE6.5070907@u...> In-Reply-To: <3EEBBEE6.5070907@u...> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan Doctor Ducker wrote: > On Mon Jun 09, 2003 at 20:01, unlin_e deregistered. This also caused > one of his Coins to be destroyed an the remaining four to be distributed > as follows: 2 to bd, 1 to Craig, and 1 to Josh (I'll be sending the > dice-server email shortly). The un-judged CFJ (#10) that had been > assigned to unlin_e has now been re-assigned to PsychicNathan, as the > only player who has not had a part in it yet. I judge CFJ #10 to be FALSE, and would like to point out that there were only four sides on the dice rolled, and I was fifth on the list: > # -------------------------------------------------- > # 1 - bd > # 2 - Craig > # 3 - Dr Ducker > # 4 - Josh > # 5 - PsychicNathan > # -------------------------------------------------- > > No. of sides on every die: 4 From cortex@n... Sun Jun 15 10:38:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: cortex@n... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11310 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2003 17:38:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jun 2003 17:38:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ganglion.neuralnexus.net) (66.92.69.180) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 2003 17:38:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 15143 invoked by uid 1006); 15 Jun 2003 17:38:24 -0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 13:38:24 -0400 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] This is a stickup! Message-ID: <20030615133824.A14704@a...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnarok@p... on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 11:43:57AM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux ganglion 2.4.18 From: cortex X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=86559092 X-Yahoo-Profile: joshcortexmillard On Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 11:43:57AM -0400, Craig keyboarded: > > Create a Hot Potato called the Potato of Armed Robbery with the description: > Whenever any other Hot Potato activates, the posessor of the Potato of Armed > Robbery shall choose another player at random and give that player all eir > Coins. > Who programs in FORth, anyway? Josh -- This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n... There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head From ragnarok@p... Wed Jun 18 17:38:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89828 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2003 00:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Jun 2003 00:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 00:38:20 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.60] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5FA13400266; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:38:18 -0400 To: Subject: Absence Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:38:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.60] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl I will be going on vacation for two weeks. I leave Friday morning. I do not want my absence to slow anything that might otherwise happen in the first week, so I hereby deregister. But do not worry, I will have two weeks to think of a good Registration Proposal. -- Craig Daniel "Somehow jokes are funnier after 3 minutes of belaboured explanation." -xod From nmccoy@o... Sat Jun 21 01:43:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97878 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 08:43:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2003 08:43:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.17) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 08:43:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 19589 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 08:39:18 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp2.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 08:39:18 -0000 Message-ID: <3EF418A9.3020003@o...> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 01:34:49 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Notice X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan I hereby assert my continued existence, as I don't want to forget and inadvertently self-destruct tomorrow. From bdonlan@b... Sat Jun 21 10:32:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bdonlan@b... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22229 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 17:32:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2003 17:32:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 17:32:19 -0000 Received: from bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (ptd-24-25-174-43.maine.rr.com [24.25.174.43]) by ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h5LHWIiY018553 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bd-home-comp.no-ip.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB5E5C7D5 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:27:20 -0400 (EDT) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Notice Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:27:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <3EF418A9.3020003@o...> In-Reply-To: <3EF418A9.3020003@o...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306211327.19941.bdonlan@b...> From: bd X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=137700428 X-Yahoo-Profile: bdonlan88 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 21 June 2003 04:34 am, Nathan McCoy wrote: > I hereby assert my continued existence, as I don't want to forget and > inadvertently self-destruct tomorrow. I do to, incase mine is approaching. - --=20 bd Gomme's Laws: (1) A backscratcher will always find new itches. (2) Time accelerates. (3) The weather at home improves as soon as you go away. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+9JV3x533NjVSos4RArX6AKCxOladFrmapqtBsIxH0djvXbgw6wCeNak6 3f2u/jrzjTRssDNg+WLPqKA=3D =3D4e86 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Sat Jun 21 13:19:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22392 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 20:19:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2003 20:19:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 20:19:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 7449 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 20:19:50 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 20:19:50 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5LKJoX09100 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:19:50 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EF4C036.8020507@u...> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:29:42 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Thermo] Recent events References: <3EEBBEE6.5070907@u...> <3EEC9D58.1060607@o...> In-Reply-To: <3EEC9D58.1060607@o...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 Nathan McCoy wrote: >Doctor Ducker wrote: > > >>On Mon Jun 09, 2003 at 20:01, unlin_e deregistered. This also caused >>one of his Coins to be destroyed an the remaining four to be distributed >>as follows: 2 to bd, 1 to Craig, and 1 to Josh (I'll be sending the >>dice-server email shortly). The un-judged CFJ (#10) that had been >>assigned to unlin_e has now been re-assigned to PsychicNathan, as the >>only player who has not had a part in it yet. >> >> > >I judge CFJ #10 to be FALSE, and would like to point out that there were only >four sides on the dice rolled, and I was fifth on the list: > > > >># -------------------------------------------------- >># 1 - bd >># 2 - Craig >># 3 - Dr Ducker >># 4 - Josh >># 5 - PsychicNathan >># -------------------------------------------------- >> >>No. of sides on every die: 4 >> >> > > > > **smacking forehead*** I thought I'd done that right, anyway, I've re-done this, and the corect results are: 2 Coins go to Josh, 1 Coin to Nathan 1 Coin to Dr Ducker I'll be forwarding the dice server email imediately following. From drduck@u... Sat Jun 21 13:20:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64224 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 20:20:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2003 20:20:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 20:20:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 7509 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2003 20:20:08 -0000 Received: from tempest.sonic.net (208.201.224.25) by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2003 20:20:08 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by tempest.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5LKK7X09169 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:20:07 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EF4C047.906@u...> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:29:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: [Fwd: Four Coins to be (re)Redistributed due to unlin_e's Deregistration] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 -------- Original Message -------- From: - Thu Jun 19 14:40:28 2003 X-UIDL: 348HFsVER0273M09 X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from cmsmail09.cms.usa.net [165.212.10.9] by cmsmail09.cms.usa.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.08F) with ESMTP id 348HFsVER0273M09; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:30:17 GMT Return-Path: Received: from nixon.xkey.com [205.217.153.42] by cmsmail09.cms.usa.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.08F); Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:30:17 GMT X-USANET-From: 205.217.153.42 IN dice-admin@p... nixon.xkey.com Received: (qmail 9602 invoked by uid 951); 19 Jun 2003 21:30:16 -0000 Date: 19 Jun 2003 21:30:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20030619213016.9601.qmail@n...> From: dice-admin@p... (Dice server) Subject: Four Coins to be (re)Redistributed due to unlin_e's Deregistration X-Loop: 1 To: Doctor Ducker Cc: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com X-Text-Classification: personal_nomic-thermo X-POPFile-Link: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: Doctor Ducker Rolls also sent to: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com # -------------------------------------------------- # 1 - bd # 2 - Craig # 3 - Dr Ducker # 4 - Josh # 5 - PsychicNathan # -------------------------------------------------- # Note that this is due to my mistakenly only using four-sided dice # -------------------------------------------------- No. of sides on every die: 5 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 4 No. of rolls per line: 1 4 5 3 4 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ Original message follows: > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dice@p... > Received: (qmail 9414 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2003 21:30:03 -0000 > Received: from b.smtp-out.sonic.net (208.201.224.39) > by h42-rt.sv.meer.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 21:30:03 -0000 > Received: (qmail 21781 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2003 21:30:02 -0000 > Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) > by b.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 21:30:02 -0000 > Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) > by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5JLU1826775 > for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:30:02 -0700 > X-envelope-info: > Message-ID: <3EF22D67.60701@u...> > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:38:47 -0700 > From: Doctor Ducker > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 > X-Accept-Language: en-us, en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dice Server > Subject: Deregistration of unlin_e > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #T Four Coins to be (re)Redistributed due to unlin_e's Deregistration > #P thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com > #D 1 > #S 5 > #R 4 > #L 1 > #C -------------------------------------------------- > #C 1 - bd > #C 2 - Craig > #C 3 - Dr Ducker > #C 4 - Josh > #C 5 - PsychicNathan > #C -------------------------------------------------- > #C Note that this is due to my mistakenly only using four-sided dice > last time. > #C -------------------------------------------------- > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPvIraD8NitsTFjcVAQH++gP9F8xxv5g495lQwyiBBdF7IzuzhiTJNQCC uvsv3xqEee96f3tix8H+PDWy8EjCvYG6GlS7MGiW9O0UadNwPrmlCHQVRRkcC4aH ++fZoSyUXC7vHrGSqr8f4Wux60J+jQQwu/U8BNWg5p5RF7iuG8tYSrFnvqwXgySC Rj3xDdBiEp8= =bimP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drduck@u... Sat Jun 21 22:27:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: drduck@u... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64046 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2003 05:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2003 05:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a.smtp-out.sonic.net) (208.201.224.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jun 2003 05:27:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 8187 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2003 05:27:32 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2003 05:27:32 -0000 Received: from usa.net (adsl-209-204-139-104.sonic.net [209.204.139.104]) by sub.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h5M5RWV14644 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:27:32 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <3EF5409E.1040200@u...> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:37:34 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030509 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ThermoDyNomic Subject: Attn: Josh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Doctor Ducker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24064812 X-Yahoo-Profile: ducker756 You have aprox. 12 Hours before you are deregistered. From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 22 09:08:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29089 invoked by uid 7800); 22 Jun 2003 16:08:52 -0000 Date: 22 Jun 2003 16:08:52 -0000 Message-ID: <1056298132.32031773.7115.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ::: THERMODYNOMIC 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. Comment: ::: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. ::: SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. ::: THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. ::: THE RULESET 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. ::: PROPOSALS 5 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. 5.9 If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. 5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. 5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. 5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. 5.991 The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. ::: CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. ::: DEREGISTRATION 7 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. ::: REGISTRATION 8 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. ::: THINGS 9 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. ::: OFFICES 10 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. 10.6 Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. 10.7 Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.8 Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.81 There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called the Winner. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. ::: JUDGEMENT 11 Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.01 A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. 11.7 A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: APPEALS 12 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. 12.566 The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. 12.6 An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: PAST JUDGEMENTS 13 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. 15.001 It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. 15.002 Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored. 15.003 Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 15.004 There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. 15.005 For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. 15.006 The proposal, known as "Proposal 3", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:16pm by unlin_e, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . 15.007 Rule 7.3 did not destroy any points upon Josh's deregistration of April 10, 2003, as there was nothing to destroy. Comment: ::: POTATOES 15 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. Comment: ::: WINNING THE GAME 16 Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable of owning Coins. Comment: From nmccoy@o... Thu Jul 03 23:47:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nmccoy@o... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97187 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2003 06:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2003 06:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.sea.theriver.com) (216.39.128.16) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2003 06:47:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 9704 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2003 06:40:50 -0000 Received: from sense-sea-megasub-1-280.oz.net (HELO oz.net) (216.39.145.26) by smtp1.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2003 06:40:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3F05206A.9050900@o...> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:36:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Um.... X-Enigmail-Version: 0.73.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan McCoy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=147420437 X-Yahoo-Profile: psychicnathan It appears that the game is over, due to there being no players. Since there are no players, there will always be just as many FOR votes as AGAINST votes (zero) on a registration proposal, and since the FOR votes must exceed the AGAINST votes to make the proposal pass and add a player to the game, nobody will be able to get into the game. So, what do we do now? From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 06 08:49:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30550 invoked by uid 7800); 6 Jul 2003 15:49:00 -0000 Date: 6 Jul 2003 15:49:00 -0000 Message-ID: <1057506540.30838937.73818.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ::: THERMODYNOMIC 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. Comment: ::: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. ::: SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. ::: THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. ::: THE RULESET 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. ::: PROPOSALS 5 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. 5.9 If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. 5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. 5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. 5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. 5.991 The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. ::: CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. ::: DEREGISTRATION 7 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. ::: REGISTRATION 8 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. ::: THINGS 9 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. ::: OFFICES 10 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. 10.6 Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. 10.7 Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.8 Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.81 There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called the Winner. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. ::: JUDGEMENT 11 Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.01 A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. 11.7 A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: APPEALS 12 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. 12.566 The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. 12.6 An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: PAST JUDGEMENTS 13 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. 15.001 It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. 15.002 Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored. 15.003 Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 15.004 There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. 15.005 For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. 15.006 The proposal, known as "Proposal 3", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:16pm by unlin_e, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . 15.007 Rule 7.3 did not destroy any points upon Josh's deregistration of April 10, 2003, as there was nothing to destroy. Comment: ::: POTATOES 15 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. Comment: ::: WINNING THE GAME 16 Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable of owning Coins. Comment: From ragnarok@p... Mon Jul 07 16:05:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61163 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2003 23:05:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2003 23:05:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2003 23:05:50 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.92] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id ACD19B40294; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 19:05:53 -0400 To: Subject: RE: Um.... Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:06:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.92] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >It appears that the game is over, due to there being no players. >Since there are >no players, there will always be just as many FOR votes as AGAINST >votes (zero) >on a registration proposal, and since the FOR votes must exceed the >AGAINST >votes to make the proposal pass and add a player to the game, nobody >will be >able to get into the game. >So, what do we do now? I'm back. Unfortunately, it appears I can't reregister. Theoretically, I suppose, the game continues without players; the Second Sacred Law slowly destroying Things until it destroys the rule that does the destruction. I'd vote for starting a ThermodyNomic II with a modified version of the latest ruleset. But first, a little bit of anarchy to decide how the rules will be modified, if at all. Since I only have two weeks at home before being out of town for another four, I encourage this to start without me, but I am quite happy to brainstorm how it should go. As the first new idea in such Anarchy, I'd say we remove all Past Judgements whose removal wouldn't hurt anything (all of them, I think), combine a few old rules into single rules in joyous celebration of the fact that we are no longer limited to one sentence per rule, and change the rules to make the Nomic Market more workable. In the fullness of time I will post a suggestion for the initial rules of ThermodyNomic II. From ragnarok@p... Mon Jul 07 20:01:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24627 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2003 03:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2003 03:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2003 03:01:30 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.92] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A40E6630238; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:01:34 -0400 To: Subject: Um (Toward a ThermodyNomic II) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:01:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <1056298132.32031773.7115.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.92] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl In the absence of the old rule 4.0, it seems to me that the old concept of a group of rules is no longer necessary. Therefore, I propose the following ruleset for ThermodyNomic II. Rule 0: Name. The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic II'. The game will also be known by the nickname 'Thermo'. Rule 1.0: The First Sacred Law, Part the First. No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by Rule 1.0. A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. It is to be understood that the intent of this rule is to limit the creation of new Things. Rule 1.1: The First Sacred Law, Part the Second. Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, one Coin is created in the posession of each player. and the number of Therms is set to zero. A decrease in the number of some type of Thing is equivalent to the destruction of some Things of that type. Rule 2: The Second Sacred Law. If a proposal which destroys at least three Things passes, a Coin is created in the posession of the player who submitted the proposal, unless this would result in the proposal creating more Things than Rule 1.0 allows. If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Rule 3: The Third Sacred Law. The term 'Three Sacred Laws' refers to the rules whose numbers are one or greater and less than four. If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. Otherwise, in the case of a rule conflict, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. It is understood that the intent of this rule is to preserve the Three Sacred Laws. Rule 4: Random Numbers. To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. Rule 5: The Official Mailing List. The official mailing list for ThermodyNomic II is the e-mail group archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and maintained by Yahoo! Groups. People may join by sending e-mail to thermodynomic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and post by sending mail to thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com. Rule 6: Documents. A Document is a body of text. Many Documents are Things, but not all. Rule 7: The Ruleset. A rule is a Document consisting of a number, a title, and some text. The Ruleset is a Document consisting of all Rules. Anything which the ruleset does not prohibit shall be permitted, with the exception of the creation, destruction, or alteration of Things. Rule 8: Proposals. A proposal is a Document consisting of any number of suggested creations, destructions, or modifications of Things. A proposal is a Thing which initially belongs to the person who submits it. A proposal is Pending if the Three Sacred Laws permit it to be passed, it has been posted on the official mailing list, and it has not expired. A proposal may expire in only as directed in Rule 8. A proposal expires if all players vote on it or if one week has passed since it became Pending. Any Proposal which has been submitted to the official mailing list but has not been Pending during the past week is destroyed. The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list. Proposals may pass only as defined in the rules. When a proposal passes, all actions listed in that proposal occur in sequence. Rule 9: Support of Coins. A Proposal may request a Support of Coins by stating in its text that it does so. If a proposal would become Pending if its actions included the destruction of all Coins in that proposal's Support of Coins, then that is considered to be one of its actions and the proposal becomes Pending. Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. Rule 10: Voting. A legal vote on a proposal consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN, as well as any obvious synonym thereof. To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. Players may vote only on Pending proposals. If a player who has already voted on a proposal casts another vote, all earlier votes from that player are nullified. A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. Rule 11: Transfer of Things. Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Rule 12: Deregistration. A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Rule 13: Registration. A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal e submitted is currently a pending proposal. A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Rule 14: Things. A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, hot potatoes, and The Bank are all Things. Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, registration proposal, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Rule 15: OFFICES Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules and shall carry with it certain duties. Rule 16: The Office of the Speaker. An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. Rule 17: The Stenotype. There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. Rule 18: Salaries. Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. Rule 19: The Victory Cabbage. There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called the Winner. Rule 20: Judgement. Any player may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. A Call For Judgement is a Document whose text must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. The decision of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement. If there are no eligible candidates, the next player to register will be assigned. Rule 21: Appeals Calls For Judgement may only be appealed as defined in rule 21. When a player feels that a Call For Judgement has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey has communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Rule 22: Past Judgements. Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the judge may choose to create a new rule. This rule may have any title at all, and its text will be the text of the Call For Judgement. Its number must be higher than that of any existing rule. Rule 23: Potatoes. Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name. Each Hot Potato has a Document associated with it, called its description, explaining what that Hot Potato's effect is and when it occurs. Rule 24: Winning. Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable of owning Coins. Acquiring the Victory Cabbage in this way is known as Winning By Wealth. From ragnarok@p... Mon Jul 07 20:03:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30936 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2003 03:03:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2003 03:03:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2003 03:03:56 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.92] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4A277E01DA; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:04:02 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Um (Toward a ThermodyNomic II) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:04:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.92] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl Note, btw, that I would still like to add a Nomic Market interface to the initial ruleset of ThermodyNomic II. If it doesn't happen, you can guess what my registration prop will look like. From koehn61802@y... Tue Jul 15 16:26:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: koehn61802@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77258 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2003 23:26:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2003 23:26:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jul 2003 23:26:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.121] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2003 23:26:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:15 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Um (Toward a ThermodyNomic II) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1286 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Laurence J Koehn" X-Originating-IP: 192.17.3.81 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=139793646 X-Yahoo-Profile: lunarobject --- In thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com, "Craig" wrote: > Therefore, I propose the following > ruleset for ThermodyNomic II. Over a week since the last post on this group... does that mean all interest has waned? What a shame -- here I read through 680 messages so I'd be up to date and know what was going on here before jumping into the fray, only to find at the end of it all that the game is already over. Oh, well. If there is interest in a Thermo II, I would be game. If not, I guess I'll go over and check out B Nomic, though it looks like it's gotten a bit hard to comprehend for someone jumping in at this point. Especially since I'm a Nomic newbie, having just learned of it from the recent article on metagames in Games magazine. Anyway, if ThermodyNomic is no more, may I suggest that if all you former players of defunct Nomics ever decide to have a convention, you should call it NecroNomiCon. Hmm... or maybe that would be a good Nomic variant. "No, you can't eat that brain, because there were two abstentions, and according to rule XIII.7a..." Maybe not. Besides I should probably actually _play_ the game before trying to come up with my own variants. :) I guess now I'll lurk for awhile and see if anyone responds. Laurence From ragnarok@p... Tue Jul 15 19:18:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16095 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2003 02:18:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Jul 2003 02:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2003 02:18:16 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.92] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A5E93A3015C; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:18:17 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Um (Toward a ThermodyNomic II) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:18:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@p... [209.42.200.92] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> Therefore, I propose the following >> ruleset for ThermodyNomic II. >Over a week since the last post on this group... does that mean all >interest has waned? What a shame -- here I read through 680 messages >so I'd be up to date and know what was going on here before jumping >into the fray, only to find at the end of it all that the game is >already over. Oh, well. If there is interest in a Thermo II, I >would be game. It would indeed seem that interest has waned. I am still very interested in a Thermo II, though this coming Sunday I will be leaving for a month. So if it can't start until I'm back, it will be a while. If there is enough interest (IMO, starting a Nomic takes about five people) I encourage it to begin without me. By the way, it is generally unnecessary to read more than the rules to get up to speed on any Nomic. >If not, I guess I'll go over and check out B Nomic, though it looks >like it's gotten a bit hard to comprehend for someone jumping in at >this point. Especially since I'm a Nomic newbie, having just learned >of it from the recent article on metagames in Games magazine. It wasn't much simpler when I joined, and it is great fun. I'd encourage you to give it a try. >Anyway, if ThermodyNomic is no more, may I suggest that if all you >former players of defunct Nomics ever decide to have a convention, >you should call it NecroNomiCon. Hmm... or maybe that would be a >good Nomic variant. "No, you can't eat that brain, because there >were two abstentions, and according to rule XIII.7a..." Maybe not. >Besides I should probably actually _play_ the game before trying to >come up with my own variants. :) Actually, there is a game called "Nomicron". It moves rather slowly, so it might be good for a newbie. Then again, its sloth gives it a very different style from most Nomics. >I guess now I'll lurk for awhile and see if anyone responds. Boo! -- Craig Daniel "Paginate my subjective reality, baby!" -Taliesin From koehn61802@y... Wed Jul 16 13:04:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: koehn61802@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77476 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2003 20:04:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Jul 2003 20:04:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41702.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.119) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2003 20:04:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20030716200455.60453.qmail@w...> Received: from [192.17.3.79] by web41702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:04:55 PDT Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Thermo] Re: Um (Toward a ThermodyNomic II) To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Laurence Koehn X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=139793646 X-Yahoo-Profile: lunarobject --- Craig wrote: > >interest has waned? What a shame -- here I read > through 680 messages > By the way, it is generally unnecessary to read more > than the rules to get > up to speed on any Nomic. Yeah, but I thought it would be a good idea to read a few posts to get an idea of what the atmosphere of the game was like, and see if there were any unwritten conventions that were followed, and then I got caught up in the evolution of the game and figured, what the heck, might as well read 'em all. > Actually, there is a game called "Nomicron". It > moves rather slowly, so it > might be good for a newbie. Then again, its sloth > gives it a very different > style from most Nomics. Thanks for the info. I went and took a peek at the Nomicron website, and it looks interesting. Laurence __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 20 08:25:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 68662 invoked by uid 7800); 20 Jul 2003 15:25:33 -0000 Date: 20 Jul 2003 15:25:33 -0000 Message-ID: <1058714733.29431967.42035.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: files X-Yahoo-Group-Post: system From: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: File - ruleset.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ::: THERMODYNOMIC 0 The full name of this game of Nomic shall be 'ThermodyNomic'. 0.1 Those who need a shorter name for this Nomic may refer to it by the nickname 'Thermo'. 0.2 Because Thermo is a relatively new Nomic, players are not to try to kill it. 0.3 To ensure that random selections occur without fraud, dice@p... shall be used whenever anything random is called for. 0.4 The Official Mailing List is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thermodynomic/ and can be accessed by e-mail at thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com 0.5 There are no restrictions on players entering the Nomic Market. Comment: ::: FIRST SACRED LAW 1.1 No proposal may be submitted whose passage would directly increase the number of Things in the game, unless it is explicitly permitted by rules in the group headed FIRST SACRED LAW. 1.2 A Registration Proposal may, if passed, increase the number of Things in the game by up to two, one of which is of course the player who submits that proposal. 1.3 Whenever a player Registers and the number of Therms exceeds the number of players by at least five, all players recieve a Coin and the number of Therms is set to zero. 1.4 Whenever the number of Things is decreased, the removed Things of that type are destroyed. Comment: The number of things can only increase when the game is influenced by external people. ::: SECOND SACRED LAW 2.1 Any player who submits a proposal that would destroy at least three Things recieves a Coin if that proposal passes. 2.2 If two weeks have gone by without a proposal passing, a Thing is chosen at random and destroyed. Comment: Without external influence, the number of Things may slowly decrease as they are replaced by Therms. ::: THIRD SACRED LAW 3.1 If a rule in one of the Three Sacred Laws conflicts with another rule which is not in one of the Three Sacred Laws, the rule in the Sacred Law takes precedence. 3.2 If two rules contradict one another, the rule with the lower number takes precedence. 3.3 No proposal to alter one of the Three Sacred Laws may pass if any player votes against the proposal. Comment: This makes sure the Three Sacred Laws remain inviolate. It has some redundancies, but they are a safety net in case parts of the Second Sacred Law destroy the other locations of them. ::: THE RULESET 4.1 Every rule shall include a real number which uniquely identifies it. 4.2 A group of rules is any number of rules under a common heading, followed by a short commentary on the rules of that group. 4.3 The commentary within a group of rules shall not affect what is and is not legal. 4.4 Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted. 4.5 The Ruleset shall consist of all groups of rules. 4.6 A group of rules is not a Thing, it is a collection of Things. Comment: Groups of rules serve as a coherent whole, acting as a single rule would in most Nomics. However, individual rules are not ammendable, but groups are, so it is helpful to have short individual rules. ::: PROPOSALS 5 A proposal consists of any number of suggested creations or destructions of Things, and the creation, destruction, or alteration of any number of comments and group headings in the ruleset. 5.1 A proposal belongs to the person who submits it. 5.2 A pending proposal is a proposal which obeys the Three Sacred Laws, has been submitted to the official mailing list, and has not expired. 5.3 A proposal may expire in only as directed in the rules within the group headed by the word PROPOSALS. 5.4 A proposal expires if all players vote on it. 5.5 A legal vote consists of FOR, AGAINST, or ABSTAIN. 5.6 To vote on a proposal, a player must announce what pending proposal they are voting on and how they choose to vote. 5.7 A proposal expires if one week has passed since it was submitted. 5.8 No player may vote on a proposal which is not pending and does not request Support. 5.9 If a player votes on a Proposal, and has already voted, eir previous vote is nullified an instant before the new vote becomes legal. 5.91 A Proposal may request a Support of Coins be established for said proposal, and if destroying said Coins as an action of said proposal would allow said proposal to become pending, then the destruction of all Coins assigned to said proposal's Support of Coins is considered an action of said proposal, and thus said proposal becomes pending. 5.92 Any player may assign any number of Coins which said player possesses to be considered part of a proposal's Support of Coins. 5.93 Any Proposal which has not become pending within one week of its submission is destroyed. 5.991 The person who submitted a proposal may destroy that proposal, if there are not currently more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, by announcing eir wish to do so on the mailing list. Comment: This defines the process of submitting proposals, and voting on them. ::: CHANGING THE GAMESTATE 6 The Three Sacred Laws are the groups of rules headed FIRST SACRED LAW, SECOND SACRED LAW, and THIRD SACRED LAW. 6.1 A proposal may pass only as defined in the rules within the group headed by the phrase CHANGING THE GAMESTATE. 6.2 A proposal which does not suggest altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of votes cast AGAINST it. 6.3 A proposal which suggests altering one or more of the Three Sacred Laws passes if and only if, at the time it expires, the number of votes cast FOR it exceeds the number of ABSTAIN votes it recieves, and it recieves no votes AGAINST it. 6.4 When a proposal passes, the changes it suggests are adopted. 6.5 No changes to the gamestate may occur except as defined in the ruleset. 6.6 No proposal may modify any individual rule, aside from adding or removing it. 6.7 Destruction of a Thing shall be considered to alter that thing, but not modify it. 6.8 Any player may give any Thing e posesses to any other player by stating eir intent to do so on the official mailing list. Comment: This defines what a proposal is and what is needed for a proposal to pass. 6.7 clarifies why you can destroy a rule but not rewrite the TSLs with a single dissenting vote despite 6.1, 6.2, and 6.6. Former Speaker Craig's editorial note - not officially part of the ruleset - I find 6.7 a bit kludgey. If anyone has any idea how to fix that, I'm all ears. ::: DEREGISTRATION 7 A player is someone who has registered more recently than ey has deregistered. 7.1 A player may deregister by announcing that ey wishes to do so. 7.2 If a player has been a player for at least a week and e has not posted a message to the offical mailing list in the past week, e is deregistered. 7.3 When a player deregisters, one of eir Coins is destroyed, and all eir things are distributed randomly between all other players. Comment: This defines how to not be a player. ::: REGISTRATION 8 A proposal submitted by a non-player is called a registration proposal. 8.1 Nobody may submit a registration proposal if a registration propsal ey submitted is currently a pending proposal. 8.2 A person who submits a registration proposal which subsequently passes is considered to have registered. Comment: This group of rules prevents a player who does not have any good ideas from joining. ::: THINGS 9 A Thing is any item declared by the rules to be a Thing. 9.1 Players, rules, offices, proposals, Coins, and hot potatoes are all Things. 9.2 No new type of Thing may be created without adding it to the list of Things. 9.3 Whenever a Thing is destroyed, the number of Therms is increased by one. 9.4 A player who deregisters is considered to have been destroyed. 9.5 A player who is destroyed automatically deregisters. 9.6 A rule which is destroyed is automatically removed from the ruleset. 9.7 Any Thing which is not a player, Rule, or The Bank, must be possessed by a player or The Bank. Comment: This defines Things. Coins are intended to be a currency, and The Bank is a Thing which posesses all Coins not in the posession of a player. ::: OFFICES 10 Each individual office shall be declared to exist by the rules of the group headed OFFICES 10.1 Each individual office carries with it its own duties. 10.2 An office exists known as the Office of the Speaker, whose possessor shall be called the Speaker. 10.3 The Speaker shall be in charge of tabulating votes and making any random decisions that the rules do not ask another player to make. 10.4 The Speaker shall also be in charge of keeping track of Things. 10.5 There is an office known as the Stenotype, whose posessor, the Stenographer, is responsible for tracking all past judgements and for assigning Judges and Appelate Justices. 10.6 Whenever any proposal is passed, the Bank will give one Coin to the person who submitted the proposal and one Coin to the Speaker. 10.7 Whenever a CFJ is judged and not appealed within a week, the Bank will give one Coin to the Judge and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.8 Whenever a decision is reached on the appeal of a CFJ, the Bank will give one Coin to each of the Appelate Justices who returned judgements and one Coin to the Stenographer. 10.81 There is an Office known as the Victory Cabbage, whose holder is called the Winner. Comment: This group lists offices, of which the initial ruleset only has one. ::: JUDGEMENT 11 Any person may post a message containing a clearly labelled Call For Judgement. 11.01 A Call For Judgement may only be submitted by a Player. 11.1 A Call For Judgement must be a statement which does not concern any other Call For Judgement. 11.2 When a Call For Judgement is issued, the Stenographer shall randomly choose a player, who shall be known as the Judge. 11.3 The Judge of a Call For Judgement must be a player other than the one who posted the Call For Judgement. 11.4 The Judge of a Call For Judgement shall post a message indicating whether ey judges it to be true or false. 11.5 The statement of a Judge shall be binding, unless it is appealed. 11.6 Calls For Judgement shall be appealed only as defined by the rules in the group headed APPEALS. 11.7 A Judge who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This group lays the groundwork for Calls For Judgement. Judges who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: APPEALS 12 When a player feels that a Call For Judgement ey has issued has been judged unfairly, ey may post a message announcing eir intent to appeal it. 12.1 When a player appeals a Call For Judgement, three players, to be known as Appelate Justices, shall be randomly chosen, who shall not include the Judge or the player who called the Call For Judgement. 12.2 All Appelate Justices shall announce whether they consider the Call For Judgement in question to be true or false. 12.566 The decision of the majority of Appellate Justices shall be binding, and not subject to appeal. 12.6 An Appellate Justice who has deregistered before ey have communicated eir Judgement, will be replaced with another player randomly selected, by the Stenographer, from amongst those players who have not yet been directly involved with the Call For Judgement, unless there are no such players remaining, in which case the next player to register will be assigned. Comment: This allows for Calls For Judgement to be appealed. Appellate Justices who are no longer able to carry out eir duties, due to deregistration, will be relieved of such duties. ::: PAST JUDGEMENTS 13 Whenever a decision on a Call For Judgement is not appealed within two weeks, and the Call For Judgment is judged true, the sentences of the Call For Judgement shall be added, one by one, to the ruleset in the group headed PAST JUDGEMENTS and may edit the comment for said group. 13.1 When a rule is added to PAST JUDGEMENTS, its number must be higher than any previously existing rule. 15.001 It is not necessary for a registration proposal to have a posessor. 15.002 Because the proposal 'stop stealing my damn coins' will, if passed, create a rule which must be assigned a number which not only cannot be assigned but cannot exist, the clause in question must be ignored. 15.003 Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this CFJ. 15.004 There are currently no restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market. 15.005 For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the Market. 15.006 The proposal, known as "Proposal 3", Submitted on Thursday, the 10th of April 2003 at 10:16pm by unlin_e, was submitted illegally under Rule 1.1 . 15.007 Rule 7.3 did not destroy any points upon Josh's deregistration of April 10, 2003, as there was nothing to destroy. Comment: ::: POTATOES 15 Each Hot Potato must have its own unique name, and it must also have a description of when its effect occurs and what that effect is. Comment: The intent of these rules is that hot potatoes will be created which in some way harm their posessors, so that players will frantically give them to one another as the appointed time draws near. Comment: ::: WINNING THE GAME 16 Whenever a player has 50 or more Coins, that player may claim a win, at which point that player gains posession of the Victory Cabbage and all of eir Coins are randomly distributed among the set of all entities capable of owning Coins. Comment: From koehn61802@y... Sun Jul 20 18:42:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: koehn61802@y... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21329 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2003 01:42:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jul 2003 01:42:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 2003 01:42:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Jul 2003 01:42:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:42:21 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Subject: Thermo II: Thought Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2265 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Laurence J Koehn" X-Originating-IP: 192.17.3.124 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=139793646 X-Yahoo-Profile: lunarobject Hey, all, Looked over the proposed initial ruleset for Thermo II, thinking I'd have all sorts of changes to suggest, but it looks like Craig has thought of everything. Kudoses to him. One little thing, though I can't think of an easy way out of it. Removing the old rule 4.0 certainly makes it easier to create more complex rules. Introducing some kind of subgame would be ridiculous if every sentence of the rules had to be voted on individually. Not that there might not be some advantage to that, but still. The problem, though, is that by making a whole complex rule a "thing", it may be too easy to lose large chunks of the ruleset, particularly if the SSL kicked in. Then again, maybe that's more incentive to keep things moving. Also, I guess I've been tending to think of Thermo in terms of conservation of matter and energy, with "things" being matter and "therms" being energy. The two can be transformed from one to the other, but the total number of "things" and "therms" can't change as long as the system is closed. Is this too far off the concept? (It's been ages since I took Intro to Thermodynamics.) If so, that excuses the willy-nilly creation of things when a new player joins, since the system is not closed at that point. (And also should allow things to be brought in from a Nomic Market, if such an idea should be incorporated, without other things needing to be destroyed.) On the other hand, players being able to create proposals at any time kind of breaks down the analogy. Am I mistaken in thinking that a player could create a slew of bogus proposals and then destroy them in order to create other useful things? Perhaps each player should be given a fund of coins when they join and have to destroy a coin in order to submit a proposal (uh-oh, incentive *not* to make proposals-- not a good thing, I suspect). Should the idea of the game being a closed system except in certain specific cases be laid out in the rules? Finally, if Thermo I is officially over and anyone (besides me) is interested in a Thermo II, could we have the auto-posting of the final ruleset of Thermo I stopped, or perhaps replaced by the initial ruleset of Thermo II? Thanks for letting me ramble. Laurence From bceo_72@e... Wed Oct 22 21:47:09 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bceo_72@e... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87741 invoked from network); 23 Oct 2003 04:47:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Oct 2003 04:47:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO AMD) (61.144.43.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Oct 2003 04:47:06 -0000 To: "thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com" Subject: shed the fat, feel alive and vibrant Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:50:29 +0800 X-Priority: 3 (normal) Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 From: "bceo_72@e..." 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Tue Dec 16 15:03:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: zplayz@s... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55131 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2003 23:03:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2003 23:03:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.101) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2003 23:03:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2003 23:03:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:03:42 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.101 From: "jefeplay" X-Originating-IP: 24.71.10.17 Subject: verify X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public verify From ragnarok@p... Tue Dec 30 21:10:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@p... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84871 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2003 05:10:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2003 05:10:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailserv1.intrex.net) (209.42.192.236) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2003 05:10:13 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3400EB043; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from craig (client212-89.dsl.intrex.net [209.42.212.89]) by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 50B1AB01D; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:10:12 -0500 (EST) To: Cc: Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:10:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.42.192.236 From: "Craig" Subject: RE: [Thermo] verify X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >verify Sorry it took me so long to say anything. Right now, nothing is happening with Thermo. ThermodyNomic I has died. There has been some discussion of starting a ThermodyNomic II, but it hasn't yet come to anything. Glad to see someone else with some interest! -- Craig Daniel "Did you come to me because you are really just a perl version?" -Frank to pseudo-Thinkit ragnarok@p... teucer@b... From ec970eceb1d000e2a4e62ade28121732@d... Wed Dec 15 07:55:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ec970eceb1d000e2a4e62ade28121732@d... X-Apparently-To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23560 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 15:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 15:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO computer) (218.232.6.187) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 15:55:41 -0000 To: thermodynomic@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/html;charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 02:55:42 +1100 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 218.232.6.187 From: "fffc7b2aad110961b5804e30cf524c17" Reply-To: "fffc7b2aad110961b5804e30cf524c17" Subject: Hey Guys - w00t! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public Check out my friends Just wanted to say w00t! From e611dbff448c7e4a548c31cef3455785@1... Wed Dec 15 20:35:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: e611dbff448c7e4a548c31cef3455785@1... 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