Subject: The real reason Nomic Market was created

From: "quarksbar9" <quarksbar9@y...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:37:25 -0000

Citizens of Thermodynomic. Last week I requested to join B Nomic, 
but have not heard anything from them. Now they are in a "state of 
emergency" so I decided to read their April discussion archives at 
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/threads.html to get better informed on the B Nomic culture.

It would appear that B Nomic isn't being up front with you Thermo 
players in reference to this Nomic Market idea. There is an obvious 
ulterior motive you need to be alerted to.

In the April archives(link above) you should check out the thread 
entitled "Step One on the road to Internomic II". I have highlights 
and links to those exact messages so that you can see I'm not making 
this stuff up.

Baron von Skippy lays out the Internomic plan:
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00134.html

[[
I'm looking at a less structured, more real-lifeish version of 
InterNomic, where instead of a central Nomic controlling all, 
individuals link up and interact. It's broad so that they can do all 
kind of things, you see. Initially, there will be very few links, and 
most of them will come from B Nomic. This is a good thing. What I'm 
really going for is two unprecedented things. One, this game uniting 
behind a cause. Two, the cause: B Nomic becoming a power in the land, 
and, if they don't have a land for us to be a power in, us making 
one. What I envision is most players joining a second game and 
promoting the cause of B Nomic there. You don't have to be a full-
time player. Just join, vote some, and occasionally propose something 
that will make their ruleset better compatible with ours.
]]

Delusions of grandeur maybe? Read on and judge for yourself:

[[
Everyone stands to win here, especially the people who can make the 
most stuff to sell. Might I point out that we have a lot to sell?

Ambassadors will have advantages too. Especially once it's realized 
that it's easiest to have B Nomic Ambassadors to other Nomics become 
other Nomics' Ambassadors to B Nomic. Ambassadors will get power and 
paychecks both ways.
]]

If you continue reading through the thread you'll see that some 
players of B Nomic actually discuss the Nomics they can do harm to. 
Like here. 
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00147.html. And yes, they list Thermodynomic.

A player identified as bd responds to a player known as Wonko: 
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00163.html

[[
> You seem to think that we can force other Nomics to do what we want;
> you seem even to think that we can invade them at any time if we
> choose. But we can't. They don't need us nor our rules; if we bother
> them, they can choose to ignore us. And there's nothing we can do 
about
> it. For us to declare war on a nomic would be like a Magic player
> casting a Lightning Bolt at a player in a nearby game of chess - the
> chess player doesn't care about the bolt, she just ignores it, and 
the
> Bolter can't do a thing about it. Likewise, if we declare that our
> invading armies trample another Nomic's rules and beat them into the
> ground, they can simply ignore us, as we are not a part of their
> gamestate unless they allow us to be.

We can all join $smallerthanus-nomic and implement whatever proposal 
we like 
]]

Then Glotmorf chimes in: http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-
discuss/spoon-discuss-200304/msg00156.html

[[
We could do that now. I know at least one Nomic out there whose 
member count is lower than ours. We could pull a LaRouche, all join 
at once, and vote in whatever we please...
]]

Baron von Skippy also responds to Wonko: 
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00153.html

[[
>
>And if they don't subscribe to our Ambassador rule, how do we 'go to 
war' 
>with them?

-Um... we replace their entire ruleset with "proosal proosal 
proosal?" Or we masquerade as them on discussion boards that attract 
hackers and declare their web page to be totally hack-proof? You 
know, the usual way.-
]]

Since Thermodynomic is run through Yahoo groups, you will likely not 
have to worry about hack attacks. But this type of talk about Nomic 
war is really disturbing. Why would anyone want to ruin the fun of 
other players who share their interest in playing Nomic?

Here's a response to the previous email from Wonko:
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00166.html

[[
We can only nuke eir rules if we outnumber them. And that strikes me 
as a bit of a cop out - there's absolutely nothing they can do short 
of closing themselves to stop us. So all that happens is that we take 
out 
one Nomic, it restarts using its last seen ruleset but without 
allowing new players, and every other Nomic gets irritated and cuts 
off all relationships with us. We essentially become a group of 
traveling brigands whom everyone else hates. I, for one, will not 
join in such action.
]]

Wonko is the only B Nomic player taking these Nomic war hawks of B 
Nomic to task. Don't you think that's sad?

Now we see Baron von Skippy discuss the precedence of internomic war: 
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00155.html

[[
-The Nomic Wiki has the records of two inter-nomic wars already. 
Neither needed Ambassadors. Agora simply trampled two Nomics which 
pissed it off. I mean, really. A war like you describe is like two 
children shooting imaginary guns at each other. "Bang!" "You missed!" 
I'm talking about an all-out grapple to the death.-
]]

Grapple to the death? Again, why would anyone want to ruin the fun 
of other Nomic players. This is shameless.

If you continue reading the other messages in this thread you will 
see reports of active attempts to join other Nomics.

Here's Baron von Skippy responding to bd(bdolan88):
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00175.html

[[
>How about adding Emissaries to the Ambassador rule? They'd be 
required to 
>be
>in at least one other nomic, and would be paid to 'introduce' new 
rules 
>there
>for preparation for our *checks thesaurus*
>dominat^H^H^H^Htakeove^H^H^H^H^Hcoup^H^H^H^Hinteractions with them...

-Well, that's what Ambassadors /are./ They start as Ambassadors on 
one end and strange newbies who keep blathering on about another 
Nomic on the other, until both ends take them as Ambassadors.-
]]

The plan is clear. There are a good number of B Nomic players who 
want other Nomics to conform to the B Nomic ruleset or else they will 
destroy them. 

More from Baron van Skippy:
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-discuss/spoon-discuss-
200304/msg00176.html

[[
-So we keep joining and joining. They can't block (a) player names, 
(b) e-mail addresses, or (c) B Nomic players (if they block B Nomic 
players, we either add the ' to our name anyway or we just lie about 
it), and eventually their people will quit out of frustration. Or 
maybe they'll lock out all new players, in which case they stagnate. 
People get bored fast, you know. If we can keep something up longer 
than them, they might give in. What we need first is a solid ally. 
Another Nomic we can work with and rely upon to join with us in a 
mutually beneficial relationship, and who can donate people to the 
cause of breaking other Nomics.
]]

Breaking other Nomics? What a bunch of jerks.

Since Thermodynomic appears so gung-ho about this Nomic Market thing, 
maybe they'll select you as this "solid ally". Does Thermodynomic 
wish to be a party to "breaking other Nomics" with B Nomic?

This whole mess is pretty damn unethical if you ask me and I'll be 
alerting every Nomic they listed in this thread. Plus I will never 
join B Nomic as long as these bunch of jerks rule the roost.

sam nichols

---

From: cortex <cortex@n...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:10:18 -0400

> join B Nomic as long as these bunch of jerks rule the roost.

And at the same time, it's a fascinating notion. While willfully
damaging someone else's Nomic would be pretty shitty, it'd also be
terrific sort of extension of the idea of what a game of Nomic is. In a
sense, what we're talking about *is* InterNomic in it's most natural
form. 

Or something. Gotta finish watching Yojimbo now.

Josh

-- 
This is my signature. * BEHOLD! * (1) cortex@n...
There are many like it, * Josh Millard * (2) /~cortex at same
But this one is mine. * OBEY! * (3) the voice in yer head

---

From: "Craig" <ragnarok@p...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:33:38 -0400

>sense, what we're talking about *is* InterNomic in it's most natural

Nomic war is not unprecedented. It tends to be a rather silly form of
interaction between two stable Nomics, where both have a lot of fun and then
both declare victory. I seem to recall stories of an Agoran conquest of Acka
at one point, but it was temporary.

Frankly, I think we can trust that although most of B Nomic would have a lot
of fun invading another Nomic, they are sensible enough to know that it
would be most fun if the other Nomic *survived*. In a Nomic Market (which I,
a non-player of B Nomic, have been involved in setting up), any Nomic can
quit whenever the Market starts to harm it. Therefore, no Market-based
interaction can last that is other than mutually beneficial. So yes, it will
help B Nomic make money. But the economics doesn't have to be a zero-sum
game.

---

From: "Craig" <ragnarok@p...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:25:23 -0400

I should mention that we are being decieved by almost any reading of the
spoon-discuss archives. First of all, the only list I can find that could be
construed as a list of Nomics they could subjugate is... a list of active
Nomics. The name of ThermodyNomic was mentioned, but as best as I can tell
it was suggested as a possible *ally* - the likely first target for any
Nomic agression from the militants in B Nomic is Nomicron. However, there
might be one thing fishy going on - OIAS's post presenting the mainstream B
Nomic view was fairly accurate, except that it downplayed the role of bd in
the discussions. E was about as pro-invasion as Baron von Skippy, and more
vocally so than Glotmorf, who OIAS blamed the whole thing on. Bd is the only
B Nomic player to have successfully infiltrated Thermo. Hmmm. However, bd
did prefer the peaceful interaction model, with war as what to do if other
Nomics get evil. A look at the B Nomic archives got me really confused. I'm
generally inclined to trust the Orc's explanation, but I'm only about 98%
sure e's being up front with us.