Subject: Re: Prop 38

From: "Oloros the Blue" <oloros@b...>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:38:03 -0000

[from Prop 38]
An Action is defined as the posting of a message to, or deletion of a 
message from, the VML, AML or RML. It is Illegal to post an Illegal 
message, or to delete a Legal message. 

I feel that there are two types of message that a Player ought to be 
allowed to delete. Both of them are posts to the VML. 

A Proposal that continues to exist in the VML without gaining enough 
Votes for its Adoption or Defeat is, in effect, a time-bomb that 
could, wreck havoc by affecting parts of the Ruleset that were not 
yet imagined at the time the Proposal was originally posted. Or just 
unwrite a decent change. I think we need some means to eradicate such 
abandoned proposals, without great penalty to their author. This 
might not be a simple deletion of them from the VML, but that would 
be the intended effect.

A Vote that is made upon a Proposal that has not yet been closed 
ought to be changable (deletable) by the Voting Player. This may 
represent the solution to the abandoned proposal problem outlined 
above.

-Oloros

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From: Xylen <mctupper@h...>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:24:53 -0600

> represent the solution to the abandoned proposal problem outlined 

I am strongly opposed to allowing a Player to delete their vote from an
unclosed proposal. If the vote message is deleted, then there is no way
to know that the player has not voted. In effect, they can vote again.
Currently the rules allow for a single vote on each proposal. By
allowing a vote to be removed, that player can later change his mind
and vote again, possibly differently than the original vote, thus
multiple votes.

I understand the problem of a 'lost' proposal. I happen to have one
that is just sitting around. Since I happen to like it, I am not going
to remove it (even if the rules would allow that). 

My suggestion is to re-word rule 5 to say something like "Each player
has a maximum of one vote published for each proposal, where published
is a post to the VML" That would allow a player to change their mind,
as long as there is only one vote from that player at any given time
for the proposal in question. However, they must make a post to the AML
stating they have changed or removed their vote. 

As far as removing a proposal, we need to change rule 2 perhaps. Adding
a paragraph something like this:

"Any Rule-Change can be removed by the author of the rule-change. the
author must post a message to the AML with the subject 'Proposal [n] is
Erased' . A similar message must also be posted to the VML. After both
of these posts have been made, the author of the proposal may delete
thier proposal from the VML." 

Append to the last sentence of rule 2 a phrase such as "and it has not
been Erased".

Unfortunetly, I don't have the time to work up such proposals right
now. If no one else has the time either, I will make these proposals
this weekend. If you do use my ideas, a small donation of points would
be appreciated. 

Xylen (Social Standing of -2)

ps. Since changing a vote or erasing a proposal can be confusing to
players and observors, perhaps some sort of Social Penalty for making
such changes?

-- 
How many programmers does it take to debug an AI? Just one,but the program has to really, really want to change.