Subject: Prop 105

From: "TopHeavy (A. Lawn)" <topheavy@s...>
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:35:50 -0000

I am just letting y'all know my reasoning for quickly voting against 
prop 105.

My immediate issue with this proposal is that it weights the PASSIVE 
vote as an AGAINST vote, since in tied situations the PASSIVE votes 
only allow for DEFEAT.

If this was changed, i would give the proposal more consideration.

-topheavy

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From: Doctroid <rsholmes@m...>
Date: 05 Sep 2000 14:00:50 -0400

> vote as an AGAINST vote, since in tied situations the PASSIVE votes 

No, PASSIVE votes are neutral. It's always been the case (at least
since I joined) that equal numbers of FOR and AGAINST votes lead to
Defeat of the proposal; for Adoption to happen there has to be a clear
majority in favor. 

P105 merely extends the same idea. With or without PASSIVE votes, if
the FORs and AGAINSTs are tied, the proposal is Defeated -- as always.

If you want ties broken in favor of Adoption, or if you want ties to
be ambiguous and to be decided by the Adopter/Rejecter, go ahead and
propose it -- but that issue exists with or without PASSIVE votes.

- D

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From: "TopHeavy (A. Lawn)" <topheavy@s...>
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:57:29 -0000

> Defeat of the proposal; for Adoption to happen there has to be a 
clear

You are correct, My mistake there, chalk it up to early morning, or 
just my usual tendancy towards oversight. However, what it does is 
make a single PASSIVE vote automatically support the AGAINST side. 
In an even split of votes, a PASSIVE vote is forced to become an 
AGAINST vote.. making the potential of a PASSIVE vote favor the 
AGAINST side.

>> And remember that a PASSIVE vote basically counts as BOTH a FOR 
>>and an AGAINST vote, 

> No it doesn't; it counts as *either* a FOR or an AGAINST vote,
> depending on the prejudices of the Adopter. For it to count as 
> *both* a FOR and an AGAINST vote you'd need language like

By stating that it count as both, i mean that a PASSIVE vote can be 
used as either a FOR or AGAINST.. it has the potential to be either 
one, therefore i think of it as being both until the prop is ADOPTED 
or DEFEATED, at which point that potential is used by the Adopter.

In effect, a PASSIVE vote allows your vote to back up any other 
player's opinion. And yes, when it all shakes out, this will often 
be the opinion of the Adopter, which i don't have a problem with.

Your addendum would make it so that a PASSIVE vote sides with the 
majority, which would address your concerns...

However, given a bit of end-of-day not rushed thought, i think that i 
still disagree with the addendum. This is probably because i read 
the PASSIVE vote as an actual FOR/or/AGAINST vote, therefore when i 
see a situation with two AGAINST, one FOR, and two PASSIVE, i don't 
see a prop being ADOPTED against the Majority. Those two PASSIVE 
voters were willing to see the prop ADOPTED or DEFEATED, so therefore 
there are 3 players who are amicable to the change, which satisfies 
the requirements.

so, anywho, just thought i would say a bit more instead of leaving 
the discussion hanging. I wouldn't implement the addendum, but i can 
see the arguement for it, so whatever the votes on 105 decide is fine 
by me. (like i could do anything about it anyway -smirk-)

-topheavy