Subject: What's wrong here?

From: smartgamer <sgamer@s...>
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:51:55 -0500

I put my Board prop up for debate, and I got nothing but
good comments. A lot of people liked it, nobody complained.

So why did it fail?

You all had your chances to tell me what was wrong with it. Please, let me
know so I can revise it and try again...

needless to say, I'm a tad irritated.

--Adam Norberg

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From: "Mark Risen" <kandelar@n...>
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 19:56:44 -0700

Hmm. I must agree. Very little discussion was put up and a number of people
voted against it. I suspect this has to do with rule number 211 - voting
against an adopted proposal gives the players points (if it is successful).

----- Original Message -----
From: "smartgamer" <sgamer@s...>
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Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:51 PM
Subject: [on_discussion] What's wrong here?

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From: "Windrant" <windrant@n...>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:22:23 -0400

Well, Adam... don't be irritated.

Here's the reason for my vote and why your prop failed IMHO...

It was good of you to join the game and then toss into the mix a proposition
and then a proposal. However, I think you may have been a bit ambitious to
start with. I really didn't like the proposal at all. Too wordy... I
really didn't understand the proposal at all. There were requests for you
to simply or better explain it but I really didn't see them happen. Also,
remember that the folks that have been playing the game for the last year
can effectively be considered "conservative" and will fear radical changes
to some extent. Your prop was radical change.

Another thing too (all you newbies listen with a keen ear): Just because it
was met with favorable discussion on the list DOES NOT mean it will pass.
If you really want something to pass, you need to talk to as many people as
you can and make sure it passes on assurances. This is true politicing.

Also, this is a game. Like Survivor, there is only one winner. You must
work together while screwing everybody. If we do not want you to win, then
keeping you from earning points is the way to do that. Like real politics,
smile while you sink someone else's political career. (You didn't really
think the whole Bill Clinton scandal was entirely his fault, did you?)

Chin up Adam! I would suggest moving on though... repeat attempts on the
same prop haven't worked traditionally in Our Nomic. Try something a little
less radical and it will do fine!

-Chuck

Chuck Henry
Historian of Our Nomic
www.northnet.org/windrant/OurNomic

-----Original Message-----
From: smartgamer [mailto:sgamer@s...]
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 6:52 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [on_discussion] What's wrong here?

So why did it fail?

--Adam Norberg

---

From: "Fur" <fur@w...>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:34:16 -0400

Hi Adam.

I can honestly say that I just felt way too confused by it and so I avoided
it at all costs rather than deal with figuring it out......laziness on my
part probably.

I think the prop may work in the future, but keep in mind that there are a
tremendous amount of new players in the game at the moment.....everyone is
just trying to figure out how to play Nomic itself, to throw a game upon a
game seems likely to confuse.

But, there are several things you can do.......next time make sure you have
the support of others by having them lobby with you.....that might mean
making a future promise to vote for someone else's prop if they vote for
yours, but be sure you know who your supporters are. Secondly, you can
always author the prop with another person and then split the points earned.
Its a good way to have someone else review it, and you're guaranteed that
person's votes........

Just a couple thoughts........

Don't worry.......most of us have had at least one prop fail, and some of us
have had many........

-Jen

-----Original Message-----
From: smartgamer [mailto:sgamer@s...]
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 6:52 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [on_discussion] What's wrong here?

So why did it fail?

--Adam Norberg

---

From: smartgamer <sgamer@s...>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:58:27 -0500

Actually, I did try my best to clarify the rules. I think I'll write a
semidifferent
prop- this one defines the board, what it looks like, and how it is created.
Nothing else. A different set of rules will define minigames and how the
board
will be used- I won't even define what the spaces look like or do and leave
that
to Discussion.

Actually, everyone, since we know it's coming, what SHOULD I try?
--Adam

---

From: "Mark Risen" <kandelar@n...>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:09:59 -0700

This is very good info. I'm glad to hear this. It's kind of difficult wading
into this game without forknowledge of how to play. I'm sorry that you
didn't get the prop pushed through, Adam, but it was good experience
nonetheless.

One concern I have about this, though, is that it discourages putting up
propositions. I mean, if I put a prop up, I'm risking that -10 point hit! On
the plus side, it prevents having frivolous props put up. I wonder if we can
get the best of both worlds...

-Mark