Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

From: brian_lord@i...
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:44:31 -0400

Actually since we seem to have a serious slow down of people putting out
new propositions I see this as a hinderence to the game. Aside from the
fact that silly, insane and just plain funny propositions are part of the
fun of the game. I think such a change in the voting structure would be
very detrimental to the game.

"Heard about the Buddist monk that got his tooth fixed without novicane.
Yep he said he wanted to Trancend Dental medication."

smartgamer 
<sgamer@swbel To: [email-masked] 
l.net> cc: (bcc: Brian Lord/BOSTON/IDX1) 
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE 
08/21/01 
08:47 AM 
Please 
respond to 
on_discussion 

OK... how about "Yes," "No," "Unacceptable?"
--SmartGamer
----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Jacobs {Darkstar}
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

Adam,

neat twist on the results of casting a vote...
the only thing that concerns me is using "stupid" for the other type of
vote... having a whole bunch of people call your proposal stupid can be
just as intimidating as getting it voted down in the first place. OurNomic
is composed of a wide age range of players, and while I am but an old
geezer, and could care less if someone thinks my prop is stupid, some of
our younger players might not take it so well. while the rule structure is
good, and it may work out better in the end to have a yes (+score), no (0
score), and penalty (-score) vote, can we come up with some different
wording for it???
also, the only one who sees the votes is me, therefore the only one who
would see the explanation for why a prop is "stupid" is me, it wouldn't let
the other players know why it was deemed stupid in the first place...
hopefully, folks would have spoken up in the message board and said... 'hey
that's stupid, why don't you try this to make it better...' like I'm doing
now ;-)

At 08:11 AM 8/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

Since we're back up, let's start off with a new proposition.
This one's an idea about a rule change, not a new rule.
It will stomp on a whole lot of rules.

It's up for debate under rule 303, meaning that it is up for vote
(in whatever form it ends up in) in one week's time.

I rarely do HTML mail, but I have to here; italic text is
being removed, underlined text is to be added.

207. Voters may vote either for ,or against, or claim that it is
"stupid" for any proposal within its prescribed voting period. A vote of
"stupid" is counted, for most purposes, as a NO, and is counted as such in
all situations where not stated directly otherwise. In order to be legally
cast, the vote must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescribed
voting period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of the
prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within the
prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained.

211. Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 10
points apiece., if that vote was "no." If the vote was "stupid," the voters
LOSE five(5) points apiece, as, if the proposition passes, it's obviously
not stupid. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive 10 points
plus a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Players whose
proposals are not adopted shall lose 10no points, unless there are more
"stupid" votes than "no" votes, in which case the proposer loses 15 points.
Amended by <http://humber.northnet.org/windrant/OurNomic/ruleset.htm#315
>315. 4/16/2000.

All that this proposal will do is dampen the effect of the penalty for
a bad idea. People were becoming too afraid to create new proposals, for
fear of the penalty. If this proposal passes, then only truly bad ideas
will get a penalty; others will be politely declined. The five point
"stupid" vote penalty will keep people from throwing them around.

If this rule is put in effect, we're going to see more motion on the
boards!
--Adam "SmartGamer" Norberg

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<<<<

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/ \
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(Oo / _I_
+\ \ || __|
\ \||___|
\ /.:.\-\
|.:. /-----\
|___|::oOo::|
/ |:<_T_>:|
|_____\ ::: /
| | \ \:/
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\ / | \___
/ | \_____\
`-'
-Devon Jacobs-
-Grand Silly Kniggit-
--Speaker of Our Nomic--

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---

From: smartgamer <sgamer@s...>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:56:16 -0500

charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No, it's not that. This way, a prop could be voted down with no penalty,
so people would put more in.Since there's that risk in voting "bad idea,"
it would only be done when applied- a rule like "Adam Norberg wins
this and all games of Our Nomic" would be voted as "bad idea," and
probably unanimously. A rule like a subgame that people just don't want to =
play
but sounds fun anyway would get a normal "no," with no penalty. This rule
makes it so people would put in MORE rules!
--Adam Norberg
----- Original Message -----=20
From: brian_lord@i...=20
To: [email-masked]=20
Cc: [email-masked]=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

=
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smartgamer =
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<sgamer@swbel To: on_discussion@yahoogroup=
s.com =
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l.net> cc: (bcc: Brian Lord/BOSTON/=
IDX1) =
=20
Subject: Re: [on_discussion]=
PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
08/21/01 =
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08:47 AM =
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Please =
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respond to =
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on_discussion =
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----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Jacobs {Darkstar}
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

Adam,

neat twist on the results of casting a vote...
the only thing that concerns me is using "stupid" for the other type of
vote... having a whole bunch of people call your proposal stupid can be
just as intimidating as getting it voted down in the first place. OurNomi=
c
is composed of a wide age range of players, and while I am but an old
geezer, and could care less if someone thinks my prop is stupid, some of
our younger players might not take it so well. while the rule structure i=
s
good, and it may work out better in the end to have a yes (+score), no (0
score), and penalty (-score) vote, can we come up with some different
wording for it???
also, the only one who sees the votes is me, therefore the only one who
would see the explanation for why a prop is "stupid" is me, it wouldn't l=
et
the other players know why it was deemed stupid in the first place...
hopefully, folks would have spoken up in the message board and said... 'h=
ey
that's stupid, why don't you try this to make it better...' like I'm doin=
g
now ;-)

At 08:11 AM 8/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

207. Voters may vote either for ,or against, or claim that it is
"stupid" for any proposal within its prescribed voting period. A vote of
"stupid" is counted, for most purposes, as a NO, and is counted as such i=
n
all situations where not stated directly otherwise. In order to be legall=
y
cast, the vote must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescrib=
ed
voting period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of the
prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within the
prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained.

211. Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 10
points apiece., if that vote was "no." If the vote was "stupid," the vote=
rs
LOSE five(5) points apiece, as, if the proposition passes, it's obviously
not stupid. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive 10 points
plus a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Players whose
proposals are not adopted shall lose 10no points, unless there are more
"stupid" votes than "no" votes, in which case the proposer loses 15 point=
s.
Amended by <http://humber.northnet.org/windrant/OurNomic/ruleset.htm#315

All that this proposal will do is dampen the effect of the penalty fo=
r

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<<<<

.
/ \
| |
|.|
|.|
|:| __
,_|:|_, / )
(Oo / _I_
+\ \ || __|
\ \||___|
\ /.:.\-\
|.:. /-----\
|___|::oOo::|
/ |:<_T_>:|
|_____\ ::: /
| | \ \:/
| | | |
\ / | \___
/ | \_____\
`-'
-Devon Jacobs-
-Grand Silly Kniggit-
--Speaker of Our Nomic--

=20=20=20

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=20

---

From: Falcon Arendell <falcon.arendell@w...>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:03:09 -0400

I agree with Adam. I think that if there were less chance of a penalty,
more props would be submitted. His prop would still make people careful
about putting in extraneous props for fear of a “stupid” rating, but
borderline props (a prop that has several people supporting it but could go
either way) could see the light of day and be voted on.

__________________________
Falcon Arendell

"...of course I could be wrong."
LEM

-----Original Message-----
From: smartgamer [mailto:sgamer@s...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:56 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

probably unanimously. A rule like a subgame that people just don't want to
----- Original Message -----
From: brian_lord@i... <mailto:brian_lord@i...>
To: [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

smartgamer
<sgamer@swbel To:
[email-masked]
l.net> cc: (bcc: Brian
Lord/BOSTON/IDX1)
Subject: Re: [on_discussion]
PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE
08/21/01
08:47 AM
Please
respond to
on_discussion

----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Jacobs {Darkstar}
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

Adam,

At 08:11 AM 8/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

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http://rd.yahoo.com/M=178320.1566800.3122525.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=170505708
8:HM/A=766844/R=0/*http://www.fastweb.com/ib/yahoo-57f

<<<<

.
/ \
| |
|.|
|.|
|:| __
,_|:|_, / )
(Oo / _I_
+\ \ || __|
\ \||___|
\ /.:.\-\
|.:. /-----\
|___|::oOo::|
/ |:<_T_>:|
|_____\ ::: /
| | \ \:/
| | | |
\ / | \___
/ | \_____\
`-'
-Devon Jacobs-
-Grand Silly Kniggit-
--Speaker of Our Nomic--

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=178320.1566800.3122525.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050570
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

---

From: "Mark Risen" <kandelar@n...>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:06:32 -0800

charset="iso-8859-1"

I really like the idea. As a newbie, I am a bit intimidated abouting puttin=
g up my first prop - I could lose points and I don't yet know how important=
that is. I think the loss of 5 points for voting "stupid" on a prop that p=
assed is too harsh though. I think making it no points or +5 points (instea=
d of +10) would be better. My biggest hangup, however is the wording. How a=
bout this:

211. Voters who voted against "no" on proposals which are adopted receive=
10 points apiece. Voters who voted "stupid" on proposals which are adopted=
receive 5 points apiece. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive=
10 points plus a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Play=
ers whose proposals are not adopted shall lose 10 no points, unless there a=
re more "stupid" votes than "no" votes, in which case the proposer loses 15=
points. Amended by 315. 4/16/2000.
The wording of "stupid" doesn't bother me, but I'm old enough to handle it.=
Other words I can think of are "silly" and "trivial". I'm ok with any of t=
hem (but I like the harshness of "stupid" personally ;) )

-Mark
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Falcon Arendell=20
To: [email-masked]=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:03 AM
Subject: RE: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

I agree with Adam. I think that if there were less chance of a penalty, =
more props would be submitted. His prop would still make people careful ab=
out putting in extraneous props for fear of a "stupid" rating, but borderli=
ne props (a prop that has several people supporting it but could go either =
way) could see the light of day and be voted on.

=20=20=20

Falcon Arendell

=20=20=20

LEM

=20=20=20

-----Original Message-----
From: smartgamer [mailto:sgamer@s...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:56 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

=20=20=20

probably unanimously. A rule like a subgame that people just don't want t=
o play

--Adam Norberg

From: brian_lord@i...=20

=20=20=20

=
=
=20
smartgamer =
=
=20

----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Jacobs {Darkstar}
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

Adam,

At 08:11 AM 8/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<

<<<<

.
/ \
| |
|.|
|.|
|:| __
,_|:|_, / )
(Oo / _I_
+\ \ || __|
\ \||___|
\ /.:.\-\
|.:. /-----\
|___|::oOo::|
/ |:<_T_>:|
|_____\ ::: /
| | \ \:/
| | | |
\ / | \___
/ | \_____\
`-'
-Devon Jacobs-
-Grand Silly Kniggit-
--Speaker of Our Nomic--

=20=20=20

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20

---

From: "Mark Risen" <kandelar@n...>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:07:28 -0800

charset="iso-8859-1"

Is everyone else getting duplicate mails or is it just me?

---

From: smartgamer <sgamer@s...>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:49:30 -0500

charset="iso-8859-1"

I like that rewrite, but note that I changed it to "gain 2" instead of "gai=
n 5."
--Adam
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Mark Risen=20
To: [email-masked]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

I really like the idea. As a newbie, I am a bit intimidated abouting putt=
ing up my first prop - I could lose points and I don't yet know how importa=
nt that is. I think the loss of 5 points for voting "stupid" on a prop that=
passed is too harsh though. I think making it no points or +5 points (inst=
ead of +10) would be better. My biggest hangup, however is the wording. How=
about this:

211. Voters who voted against "no" on proposals which are adopted recei=
ve 10 points apiece. Voters who voted "stupid" on proposals which are adopt=
ed receive 2 points apiece. Players whose proposals are adopted shall recei=
ve 10 points plus a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Pl=
ayers whose proposals are not adopted shall lose 10 no points, unless there=
are more "stupid" votes than "no" votes, in which case the proposer loses =
15 points. Amended by 315. 4/16/2000.
The wording of "stupid" doesn't bother me, but I'm old enough to handle i=
t. Other words I can think of are "silly" and "trivial". I'm ok with any of=
them (but I like the harshness of "stupid" personally ;) )

-Mark

I agree with Adam. I think that if there were less chance of a penalty=
, more props would be submitted. His prop would still make people careful =
about putting in extraneous props for fear of a "stupid" rating, but border=
line props (a prop that has several people supporting it but could go eithe=
r way) could see the light of day and be voted on.

=20=20=20=20=20

Falcon Arendell

=20=20=20=20=20

LEM

=20=20=20=20=20

-----Original Message-----
From: smartgamer [mailto:sgamer@s...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:56 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

=20=20=20=20=20

No, it's not that. This way, a prop could be voted down with no penalty=
,

so people would put more in.Since there's that risk in voting "bad idea=
,"

probably unanimously. A rule like a subgame that people just don't want=
to play

but sounds fun anyway would get a normal "no," with no penalty. This ru=
le

--Adam Norberg

From: brian_lord@i...=20

=20=20=20=20=20

Actually since we seem to have a serious slow down of people putting ou=
t
new propositions I see this as a hinderence to the game. Aside from the
fact that silly, insane and just plain funny propositions are part of t=
he
fun of the game. I think such a change in the voting structure would be
very detrimental to the game.

"Heard about the Buddist monk that got his tooth fixed without novicane=
.
Yep he said he wanted to Trancend Dental medication."

=
=
=20
smartgamer =
=
=20
<sgamer@swbel To: on_discussion@yahoogro=
ups.com =
=20
l.net> cc: (bcc: Brian Lord/BOSTO=
N/IDX1) =
=20
Subject: Re: [on_discussio=
n] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
08/21/01 =
=
=20
08:47 AM =
=
=20
Please =
=
=20
respond to =
=
=20
on_discussion =
=
=20
=
=
=20
=
=
=20

----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Jacobs {Darkstar}
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [on_discussion] PROPOSITION ABNPROP 1 FOR DEBATE

Adam,

neat twist on the results of casting a vote...
the only thing that concerns me is using "stupid" for the other type =
of
vote... having a whole bunch of people call your proposal stupid can be
just as intimidating as getting it voted down in the first place. OurNo=
mic
is composed of a wide age range of players, and while I am but an old
geezer, and could care less if someone thinks my prop is stupid, some o=
f
our younger players might not take it so well. while the rule structure=
is
good, and it may work out better in the end to have a yes (+score), no =
(0
score), and penalty (-score) vote, can we come up with some different
wording for it???
also, the only one who sees the votes is me, therefore the only one w=
ho
would see the explanation for why a prop is "stupid" is me, it wouldn't=
let
the other players know why it was deemed stupid in the first place...
hopefully, folks would have spoken up in the message board and said... =
'hey
that's stupid, why don't you try this to make it better...' like I'm do=
ing
now ;-)

At 08:11 AM 8/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

207. Voters may vote either for ,or against, or claim that it is
"stupid" for any proposal within its prescribed voting period. A vote o=
f
"stupid" is counted, for most purposes, as a NO, and is counted as such=
in
all situations where not stated directly otherwise. In order to be lega=
lly
cast, the vote must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescr=
ibed
voting period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of th=
e
prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within th=
e
prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained.

211. Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 1=
0
points apiece., if that vote was "no." If the vote was "stupid," the vo=
ters
LOSE five(5) points apiece, as, if the proposition passes, it's obvious=
ly
not stupid. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive 10 points
plus a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Players who=
se
proposals are not adopted shall lose 10no points, unless there are more
"stupid" votes than "no" votes, in which case the proposer loses 15 poi=
nts.
Amended by <http://humber.northnet.org/windrant/OurNomic/ruleset.htm#31=
5

All that this proposal will do is dampen the effect of the penalty =
for
a bad idea. People were becoming too afraid to create new proposals, fo=
r
fear of the penalty. If this proposal passes, then only truly bad ideas
will get a penalty; others will be politely declined. The five point
"stupid" vote penalty will keep people from throwing them around.

If this rule is put in effect, we're going to see more motion on th=
e
boards!
--Adam "SmartGamer" Norberg

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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http://rd.yahoo.com/M=3D178320.1566800.3122525.1261774/D=3Degroupweb/S=
=3D1705057088:HM/A=3D766844/R=3D0/*http://www.fastweb.com/ib/yahoo-57f

<<<<

.
/ \
| |
|.|
|.|
|:| __
,_|:|_, / )
(Oo / _I_
+\ \ || __|
\ \||___|
\ /.:.\-\
|.:. /-----\
|___|::oOo::|
/ |:<_T_>:|
|_____\ ::: /
| | \ \:/
| | | |
\ / | \___
/ | \_____\
`-'
-Devon Jacobs-
-Grand Silly Kniggit-
--Speaker of Our Nomic--

=20=20=20=20=20

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/term=
s/=20

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT

---

From: smartgamer <sgamer@s...>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:49:58 -0500

charset="iso-8859-1"

It's just you. It's just you.
--Adam Norberg --Adam Norberg
P.S. :-) P.S. :-)
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Mark Risen=20
To: [email-masked]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: [on_discussion] Duplicate Mails

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