Subject: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses

From: "Wayper, Paul" <WayperP@p...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:08:53 +1000

On Saturday, July 01, 2000 5:49 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote:
> I don't think moving about the board is really very challenging. I
> would rather introduce a bit of route planning skills:

I'm with you 100% on this.

My own personal opinion is that the way to curb the 'LV at max and vary the
route to achieve your destination' effect is to make each interchange you go
through take a penalty. My preferred currency paid here is time - it's real
world (you usually end up spending at least five minutes waiting for the
next train) and time can't be 'banked' (in the same way as you can save up
tokens).

I don't like the idea of eradicating time from the equation and replacing it
with another thing - 'action cost points', black tokens, or whatever. Yes,
it's 'removing complexity', but to my mind it's also introducing possible
ways to abuse the rules - for instance, by someone saving up a ludicrous
amount of black tokens and then winning in one turn by doing everything at
once.

I like your table, though - it makes a bit more sense than the one we
currently have and could promote more strategic moving. I'd still like to
see token running come back, but that's just me.

> You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is
> played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for
> 3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same
> Turn.

I think I'm with you here. It sounds good, and is also starting to head
toward a concept of Manoeuvres that could be fun. What if that general
framework could be extended to encompass trickier things than just moving to
a station, placing the tokens and performing the action - say, moving from
one station to another passing through a third. Or how about moving from
one station to another _without_ going through a third? Or even forming
certain patterns in tokens in a stack (e.g. Red Blue Red Blue), or a
particular formation (putting a black token on all Holy stations in zone 1)?

I'm just sort of running with a concept here, because I think you've got a
great start.

Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer
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who has actually disproven the existence of tablet-form asparagus.

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From: "Snow" <snowl@s...>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:11:44 +0100

PaulWay said:
> through take a penalty. My preferred currency paid here is time

Time was also my first choice, but we had this discussion 3 weeks ago.
Nothing is set in stone, but let's wait until we have a draft ruleset
before we change what we have already. I do like the interchange
penalty idea though.

> amount of black tokens and then winning in one turn by doing
everything at

That's why I want a 10 black limit.

On the other hand I do like the current system _because_ it removes
time from the equation.

> see token running come back, but that's just me.

If whatever moving system we use keeps moves relativly short then I
think Token running could be viable.

> one station to another _without_ going through a third?

I would certainly like to see lots of stuff like this in the game,
provided that they "made sense" rather than just being arbitrary
formations.

> Or even forming

The trouble with patterns is that any pattern is arbitrary. Red, Blue,
Red, Blue doesn't mean anything. On the other hand putting a Blue on
every holy station to stop a player being targetted does "make sense".

There is the problem with multi-station stacks: others can easily
steal Actions. If Garden places a Blue on all zone 1 holy stations he
can't make the Action until his next Turn, by then some other player
is likly to be able to reach one of the zone 1 holy stations and steal
the Action.

-- Snow
I invented gravity.

---

From: Paul Wayper <paulway@e...>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:15:41 +1000

>On the other hand I do like the current system _because_ it removes

I still don't understand why. Time (e.g. "10:45AM") sums up a lot of
things - closure-states of stations and lines, how much more time you
have in this day, peak hours - that can't really be well represented
by tokens or what-have-you. And it means you don't have to keep
track of black tokens so ferociously.

>think Token running could be viable.

I think you're looking at the wrong problem here.

The problem is not _long_ moves. It's being able to use a high LV to
move to anywhere you want - even close by stations - by using a
roundabout route. This is why an interchange time penalty makes so
much sense to me. It doesn't limit movement in the outer zones, but
stops people doing Tottenham Court Road to Warren Street with a LV of
10.

>provided that they "made sense" rather than just being arbitrary

Oh, true. But let's not also forget that this is MC - things don't
always make sense. What exactly is Knip, for example.

>The trouble with patterns is that any pattern is arbitrary. Red,
>Blue, Red, Blue doesn't mean anything. On the other hand putting a
>Blue on every holy station to stop a player being targetted does
>"make sense". 

I'm with you there. But I'm also thinking certain patterns are
artistic and can be rewarded as such. Rainbows, long stacks with one
colour, sandwiches, licorice allsorts, whatever.

>steal Actions. If Garden places a Blue on all zone 1 holy stations
>he can't make the Action until his next Turn, by then some other
>player is likly to be able to reach one of the zone 1 holy stations
>and steal the Action.

True. Which is why I don't think that's a good model. Personally I
think the 'current' MN model - playing Actions in a certain time -
has no big flaws compared to the other systems being bandied about
here.

Have fun,

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---

From: "Ole Andersen" <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:55:01 +0200

Paul wrote:
: The problem is not _long_ moves. It's being able to use a high LV to
: move to anywhere you want - even close by stations - by using a
: roundabout route. This is why an interchange time penalty makes so
: much sense to me. It doesn't limit movement in the outer zones, but
: stops people doing Tottenham Court Road to Warren Street with a LV of
: 10.

See, had this been mentioned in MN, we would have created two new terms: one for the shortest distance between two stations and another for the ratio between shortest distance and travelled distance, and then we would assign a penalty for making moves with a high ratio.

: 
: >I would certainly like to see lots of stuff like this in the game,
: >provided that they "made sense" rather than just being arbitrary
: >formations.
: 
: Oh, true. But let's not also forget that this is MC - things don't
: always make sense. What exactly is Knip, for example.

In Copanhagen, we have Knippelsbro, a bridge named after Hans Knip, who was 'bromester' (bridge master or somesuch) from 1641. We do pronounce the 'k', though, so it may be entirely unrelated...

...
: Personally I
: think the 'current' MN model - playing Actions in a certain time -
: has no big flaws compared to the other systems being bandied about
: here.

I guess you are right, more or less.

Ole
--
Ole Andersen
Brøndbyøster, Denmark
palnatoke@g...

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who
can't read them."
-- Mark Twain

---

From: "Snow" <snowl@s...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:20:05 +0100

> track of black tokens so ferociously.

Keeping track of Blacks is a lot easier than keeping track of time.
And since we've got so many Tokens we might as well use them for
something.

> much sense to me

Generally I like the interchange idea, but it doesn't help for token
running; there aren't that many interchanges on the way to termini.

-- Snow
Needlessly spliting infinitives.