Subject: MN: Re: Token quantity discussions

From: "Jonathan Ellis" <jonathan@f...>
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:47:24 +0100

PaulWay wrote:
>I've been wondering if we may be Barking up the wrong Becontree with
the
>idea of limiting things like Bocks. The way my mind is wandering is
that it
>might be a better idea to increase the number of tokens people get each
turn
>(both via a more liberal system of bonuses for moving and more gains in
>Actions). The counter side is that Actions take longer, are more
exclusive
>(i.e. you can only perform a certain number or combination each turn)
and
>take more tokens to perform.

See my comments below. Also, I think that the bonuses for moving
*to* Interchanges should be doubled, but not the bonuses for moving
*through* Interchanges (which would otherwise make high LVs, already
desirable, overpowered.) It makes sense to me that putting oneself at
risk (more Lines passing through the Station is more directions to be
Targetted from) should earn a greater reward. Three tokens per Turn as a
possible gain from moving seems okay to me, and I wouldn't particularly
like to see more than that, but I agree the current potential of two is
maybe on the low side (though not too much so: see below.)

>The reason I think this way is that at the moment it's very common to
have
>your options limited by having no useful tokens at all. Not only are
you
>limited in what you can do to other players, but you're also limited by
what
>you can defend against. Thus, people who can gain a few extra tokens
are
>immediately at a reasonably large advantage.

Hence my comments about, and use of, some sadly neglected features
of this game: the Token Stack completion, and Manoeuvres. (The current
Black-Silver-Black stack at least was used to great effect in one case,
in Game 7, getting three reds and five blues: seeing as so many actions
cost reds or blues, this proved to be a great advantage for yours
truly - and one which, for some reason, no other player of the time also
tried to exploit despite being given the example. It has the bonus of
being hard to play because of the need for a Silver Token, so isn't
going to be completed every day of the week.) People are playing the
Actions occasionally, but *not* thinking about where they place their
Tokens afterwards. I don't think that the placement should always be
"intuitive", to use the phrase that Kevan (I think) used: one should
have to remember some difficult things, such as one or two non-obvious
token stacks (only need to remember one or two of the non-intuitive
ones, they could then become a feature of that particular player's
playing style.) I'd rather see the new stacks of this week's Proposals
*added* to the list of possible bonus Stacks, not used to replace it.
I get the impression, having actually done something with the rules
as they currently stand, that some people have decided already "oh, it's
broken, it gets a lot of tokens quickly", rather than "how can I use
that to my own best advantage myself?" There are too many Actions which
cost a lot of tokens, and not enough ways of getting a lot of tokens
IMHO: and the two most under-used features of the game both include ways
of getting a lot of tokens... RiffRaff performed the Morden Paradox
gambit and has got a load of black tokens, but is doing nothing with
them - not even making a Gold from a Bonanza, which surprises me as I
believed Riff was actually thinking about strategy for a while. (Of
course, e could be collecting Blacks for a PoID...). As mentioned
before, Blues in particular are far too hard to come by considering the
number of actions which require multiple blues. There are already plenty
of ways of getting Golds, it's the multiple Plastic Tokens bit which
needs attention IMHO.
Meanwhile, in the Long Game, we have people Passing for turn after
turn, collecting Pigeons to release at no cost (thus gaining loads of
Gold while mainly remaining at the same Station, or - worse still -
going round in circles to come back to the same Station, something I
believe should be forbidden): and worse still, doing so at a Station
where they cannot be targeted and driven out from (i.e. Charing Cross.)
I've tried a Dollis Hill Loop, but Dunx kept on breaking it: I agree
that DH loops should be breakable, the problem is with the Pigeon and
not the Loop IMHO. Already this is a hideously abusable feature - this
is being proved, and would be even worse had anyone actually chosen an
outer-region Park station as a Home, to return to carrying all four
Pigeons with no loss... why should the game reward players who sit in
one place for so long? Meanwhile, there is a complete Stack of Golds at
Stonebridge Park and *nobody* has yet made a move towards it because
Pigeons are such an easy source of golds...

I'd like to see something of a reworking of Manoeuvres and Gambits,
such that each one must include at least one move of over 10 stations
(thus, may only be completed if some non-linear move is involved, for
instance a Special Move or Straddle, or the Player has managed to get
Supercharged.) This could work better if a Special Move did not reduce
LV to 0. (Suggestion: reduces LV by the number of Zone and Quadrant
boundaries crossed.) Again, not necessarily the "intuitive" ones: one
ought to have to remember a few and use them, again allowing for
individual playing styles to come through and rewarding the one who
could remember the greatest number of them (and thus have the most
options.)
It seems at the moment that the game is in danger of being taken
over by the Nomic aspect: so many players are taking so bloody long to
move that one is in danger of forgetting what MC is about, and I suspect
the reason for people not moving is that the actual MC part of the game
is no longer interesting on account of being frustrating as PaulWay
describes above - because nobody can do anything worthwhile (partly, if
I may say, the fault of the Players - one wonders why it is PaulWay that
has the most tokens even in MN, just as in real MC :-) and why I've been
picking up so many that I've overtaken a number of the Players in the
game despite joining in the Long Game comparatively later and spending s
everal weeks inactive...) and the fact that (as I point out) it is too
easy to gain the necessary Golds with a lot of staying in one place,
especially with Pigeons. At least the (otherwise broken) Token Running
way of getting golds encouraged players to actually move about the board
as the same terminus could not be used more than once...

>I'm wondering if that could be combatted by increasing the general flow
of
>tokens. If shunts cost three reds, but you pick up three reds from a
pass,
>then you're not really changing too much. However, if you get two reds
and
>two blacks for passing through three interchanges, then you're much
closer
>to playing that shunt (or defence). But if you can only shunt and do
one
>other thing that turn, then we won't suddenly see mammoth Turns from
>everyone.

My suggestions:
(1) A simple limit of only one Pre-Move, only one Post-Move Action
per Turn. Neutral Actions may be played as either: Token Exchange
actions do not count towards this limit, nor do Special Move Actions.
(2) The current 1-hour turn limit to be removed instead: no longer
needed if there is a limit on the number of Actions. Game Time will
still matter in respect to Peak Hours, Station closures (hence, paying
Blues to advance Game Time so that one can move along a particular
portion of Line would still be valid.)
(3) Actions targetting Players to be extended to any Player who
shares a Station, not just same-Line players, to allow multiple
targetting with a single Action against Players who are at the same
Station but different Lines. (A way of breaking up a mass congregation
of people Passing at Charing Cross collecting Pigeons.) Gapminding to
prevent targetting of Players on different Lines from the Player.
(4) Holy Stations to provide Sanctuary only to players who have
contributed to the Collection Plate on their previous Turn. (Well, if
you don't contribute towards the Church, why should it help you? The
custom of Sanctuary in real life assumed everyone was a churchgoer who
prayed, listened to Mass and paid their tithes...)

Jonathan.

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From: kevan@d...
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:06:28 -0000

>I think that the bonuses for moving
>Targetted from) should earn a greater reward.

True enough, yes; it makes sense that destination should earn more
reward than route. A total of three Tokens seems a shade too many,
though - perhaps normal rewards for the destination, and a slightly
reduced bonus for passing Interchanges (nothing for two, a Red for
three, a Black for four, a Blue for five-plus?).

>I don't think that the placement should always be
>playing style.)

It depends how much of a bonus this gives, really; if being able to
remember Token patterns gives you a small edge, it's forgivable, but
throwing out large rewards for Players with the best memories (or
those who notice by chance) seems too unbalancing, to me. Skill
should be more of a criteria than bland recollection or luck.

>that to my own best advantage myself?"

Isn't that what we should be doing, though? If a free "gain ten Golds"
Action somehow fell into the ruleset, shouldn't we consider and repair
it, rather than thinking "Hmm, how can I use this to Win?"

>As mentioned
>number of actions which require multiple blues.

I think such Actions would be too cheap if Blues suddenly became as
commonplace as Reds or Blacks, though; the difficulty in obtaining
Blues is reflected in the costs of the Actions, I feel.

>turn, collecting Pigeons to release at no cost

The mere cost of getting to a distant Park Station.

>Already this is a hideously abusable feature - this is being proved,

Well, it'll be proved as soon as anyone actually gets a Pigeon into a
Park. Nobody's ever managed it yet, so it can't be *that* hideously
abusable.

>and would be even worse had anyone actually chosen an
>Pigeons with no loss...

Such would be rather an obvious strategy, though - I'm sure other
Players would lurk around that Player's Home, either to Block it
and deny their going Home, or to mug them for their Gold when they
try to leave.

(Besides, any game plan that can be referred to as "The Homing Pigeon
Strategy" is no bad thing.)

>Meanwhile, there is a complete Stack of Golds at
>Stonebridge Park and *nobody* has yet made a move towards it

The Stack's only been there for a Round, and the Jubilee's just
been Power-Failed, so it's not *vastly* surprising that nobody's
started heading for it...

>because Pigeons are such an easy source of golds...

Rot. Nobody's ever gotten a Gold from a Pigeon in the history of the
Game; it can't be that easy.

>Supercharged.)

Good and bad; good in that it makes the performing of a Manoeuvre a
little more apparent, bad in that it's a bit too arbitrary and destroys
concise little Manoeuvres like the Morden Paradox.

>Again, not necessarily the "intuitive" ones: one

I disagree strongly with this; individual playing style should come
from the way resources and options are used and responded to, rather
than simply being able to remember more of them than your opponents.

>is no longer interesting on account of being frustrating

Well, if I were bored with the game itself, I'd resign from it and
concentrate on the rulemaking. I'm guilty of forgetting it's my Turn,
sometimes, but that's about it.

>and the fact that (as I point out) it is too
>especially with Pigeons.

Is it really that easy? The only other way I can think of is slowly
mining a Gold Stack, but such a tactic is liable to see other Players
turning up to either help or hinder you.

>actions do not count towards this limit, nor do Special Move Actions.

Interesting, and this might make a good variant (Baker Street?). I
think it'd just be too much of a strangler on the Vanilla ruleset,
though; as commented, the complicated Moves tend to be the most
impressive. Additionally, Actions such as Blocks are fairly staple
elements of play, usually secondary to greater machinations; if I
have to choose between Blocking to keep Dunx at bay, and doing
something clever to help me Win, I fear I'd often have no choice
but to turn to the former each Turn.

Incidentally, wouldn't this just compound your cited "problem" of
people gathering Tokens and not spending them?

>prevent targetting of Players on different Lines from the Player.

Didn't this used to be the case in the old days? I'm sure the Shunting
Rule originally gave an example of Shunting several Players at once...

>contributed to the Collection Plate on their previous Turn.

Rather expensive; perhaps a "[Sanctuary]" Action for a Blue, instead? I
don't know; it is rather annoying that Holy Stations can be so powerful,
but it's nice to have the hiding place available, and it doesn't stop
opponents waiting outside for you, with a big stick.

Pigeon-friendly,

Kevan

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