Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens

From: riffraff@n...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:49:13 -0500

>> Black: for movement and movement-based Actions. The Zone bonus
>makes them
>> plentiful, so we don't need any other means of collecting them.
>
>*Too* plentiful, perhaps? I originally (gods, nostalgia) proposed
>them as a way to stop too much Line hopping - you could only changes
>Lines by spending a Black, and could only get a Black by staying on
>the same line for a Turn. Are there (or will there be?) enough useful
>movement Actions to stop Black Tokens piling up?

Well, I'm anticipating that with only 3 free stations, players will want to
spend at least 2-4 Blacks on most moves, not counting multiple line
changes. And there's always Straddles and varying Translocations as well.
And it takes a long time to get to the outer Zones to get a lot of them,
unless you use them up getting back, in which case there's no problem.

>
>> Blue: For Actions that indirectly affect other Players or affect
>the game
>> as a whole (i.e. changes to Game State) (I personally feel that
>these
>> should be somewhat more common than the Reds, in reverse of the
>original
>> rules where the Reds were more common. I guess I'm just not very
>> agressive. ;) )
>
>I don't know; the basic Red Actions of Shunting and Blocking are so
>useful that they really *need* to be cheap, allowing the threat of
>them to be fairly ever-present. Something like Blocking, being so
>dependent on Player location, should be one of the cheapest Actions
>of the game, I think.

I can agree with that. No need to let my non-agressive feelings affect the
game as a whole :) (Although I think Blocking should possibly be a Blue
action.)

>
>> Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. Primarily, I think these
>would be
>> used as Tokens spent to buy extra Actions. Since that's a valuable
>> ability, they should be slightly harder to get than your average
>token,
>> which is why I like the idea of having to Recycle other tokens to
>get them
>> - you have to travel to one of a particular group of Stations and
>pay a
>> Plastic token (and maybe a Bronze as well) to get one.
>
>Hm, I always saw Greens as being "any-colour" Tokens, since you could
>easily Recycle anything to get them, and the fact that their Actions
>were so vague and neutral fitted it quite well.

They would still be used for those Actions, it's just that I think getting
extra Actions is what they'd be used for the most.

>
>> Bronze: Used for minor Actions, to add extra cost to more powerful
>Actions,
>> and possibly as upkeep to Actions with duration (should we
>implement any).
>
>Are we losing Possessions, then?

I would like to lose Possessions, and in fact I have a lengthy
suggestion/proposal/rant prepared concerning their removal and replacement
with "Player States" and "Podumes", but I was saving it for later because I
think it's probably too much for the Basic Ruleset, which should (IMO, of
course) be kept as simple as possible, not only so we can get the
foundations of the game nice and sturdy, but also so it can be used to
teach the game to new Players, ala the Baker Street rules from the Original
Ruleset. (Whew! Long sentence.)

>
>> Token Bonuses for Moves:
>> (# of Int. passes through, and # of Lines from an Int. landed on)
>>
>> 2 Int. - 1 Br
>> 3 - 1 Br, 1 Bu
>> 4 - 1 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd
>> 5 - 2 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd
>> 6 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd
>> 7 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd
>> 8 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd
>
>Fearsome. Wouldn't it be easier to deal with on a "one Token of any
>Colour if you land on an Interchange, maybe two if it's a hefty one
>like Bank or Baker Street", particularly in real life play? Have I
>said this before?

Well, if we want to make Blues and Reds have roughly the same value, we
could do something like that. There should be provisions for getting
Bronzes and possibly Silvers as well, though. What about this one:

2 - 1 Br
3 - 2 Br
4 - 2 Br, 1 Bu/Rd (choice)
5 - 3 Br, 1 Bu/Rd
6 - 3 Br, 1 Bu/Rd, 1 Si
7 - 3 Br, 2 Bu/Rd, 1 Si
8 - 4 Br, 2 Bu/Rd, 1 Si

>
>> The table's open-ended, since a Player could theoretically stash up
>a load
>> of Black Tokens and make a truly massive Move, unless we want to
>put a
>> limit on Stations moved in a turn.
>
>Hm, this scares me a bit, the idea of someone coughing out five
>Blacks for a charge through Zone 1, gathering a load of differently
>coloured Tokens and then whapping me with a two-Blue and two-Red
>Action I wasn't expecting? Hoarding Blacks for a speedy Move is fair
>enough, but getting Tokens for it as well seems nasty.
>
>As has been said before, and I think still applies, moving quickly is
>its own reward.

Well, as I mentioned in a later message, we could end the table at 8, thus
providing no extra advantage for high speeds. It would take a lot of Black
Tokens to get 7 or 8 Interchanges. (at least 6 or 7)

>> Stacking: I don't think Token Stacking needs to be changed from the
>> original version, except to add that black tokens spent for the
>Move aren't
>> stacked, and recycling for Green tokens is a Token Exchange, so
>they aren't
>> stacked either.
>
>Hm. Not worth ditching the idea of Token Stacking if we're going to
>try and play this in real life? You can't guarantee that everyone
>will have stackable Tokens available, after all (I'd probably use
>glass beads, myself). And I always found Stacking a bit dull, anyway;
>it was only really the expensive Tokens (and cheerful rule abuse)
>that made it worthwhile. I'd rather see Stacking killed off, maybe
>keeping the amusing "Gold Rush" Action as a "put a Gold Rush counter
>on a random Station; if a Player moves to a Station with a Gold Rush
>counter, they gain two Golds" thing.

Well, I've got stackable Tokens in my set, enough for a reasonable amount
of Players. I use colored plastic Bingo chips (although I may make some
wooden ones later on). I quite like Token Stacking, I think it really adds
something to the game, deciding where to put them, and planning routes that
allow you to pick them up later, and so forth. And all the various Actions
concerning them - Shunting them and Toppling them and Straddling and so
forth... and being able to put Tokens on particular Stations seems to be a
fundamental part of Regular MC.

What I really want to know, Kevan (and Paul and Ole and everyone else), is
what's your take on the Silvers/No Silvers thing Snow and I've been going
back and forth on?

cheers,
--Riff

"This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--Vyvyan, "The Young Ones"

---

From: "Snow" <snowl@s...>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:48:48 +0100

> what's your take on the Silvers/No Silvers thing Snow and I've been
going

OK, I'm the only person who cares that Silvers are redundant, so let's
keep them. If I can't kill the disease I'll have a go at the symptons
(Token exchanging) instead.

> >like Bank or Baker Street", particularly in real life play? Have I

I don't think moving about the board is really very challenging. I
would rather introduce a bit of route planning skills:

Station Landed on Bonus
============ ====
Termini (zone 3/4/5) Br
Interchange Rd
Green Gr
Mainline Bu
Zone x x Bl

Further you can't claim for the same station twice in 3 (say) Turns.
You can still land on the station, just not get the bonus. You can
also get more than 1 bonus per Turn (Green Park is +Gr, +Rd, +Bl) .

I would still cap Blacks at, say, 10.

> >try and play this in real life?

Well if we're going to have so many Tokens we should make good use of
them. Token stacks seem like a suitable way to do that, but they will
have to do something better than the current implementation. IMHO the
current system is barely any more useful than charge.

I don't think Players should normally be able to pick up Tokens off a
Stack. Nor do I think that Actions paid for should go onto Stacks. So
Tokens would have to be explicitly placed on Stations.

You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is
played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for
3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same
Turn.

Here are some examples off the top of my head:

1) If a Plant station contains a Green Token, you can make a Silver
(it's just an example it doesn't have to make sense).

2) If an Interchange station contains 3 black tokens then you can
Wild/Teleport to anywhere on the map.

3) If a Normal (non-interchange/non-BR) station contains 3 blacks you
can Teleport anywhere on the line.

4) If a Normal Station contains 2 reds you can do something foul to
anyone on the line.

5) If Bank has 5 Bronze you get a Silver.

6) If a Home Station has 3 reds and a black you can move the owning
player's piece anywhere on the board.

Etc.....

Golds can be made via Silvers on Termini or some other suitably
difficult means.

-- Snow
I invented under-water.