From Fri Jan 15 01:32:40 1999 Return-Path: Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32441 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jan 1999 09:32:40 -0000 Received: from m8.findmail.com (HELO findmail.com) (209.185.96.143) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 09:32:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 13598 invoked by uid 505); 15 Jan 1999 09:32:21 -0000 Date: 15 Jan 1999 09:32:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19990115093221.13597.qmail@f...> Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com From: "Duncan Ellis" Subject: Welcome to the l-nomic-d E-Mail Group To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com The discussion lounge for Mornington Nomic, named in honour of the game's founder Kevan Davis. Group Manager: l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com To subscribe, send a message to l-nomic-d-subscribe@egroups.com or go to the e-group's home page at http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d From Fri Jan 15 03:35:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32075 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jan 1999 11:34:56 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 11:34:56 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA03879 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:34:36 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 11:34:36 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA25935; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:34:33 GMT Message-Id: <199901151134.LAA25935@uks447> Date: 15 Jan 99 09:40:01 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: [l-nomic-d] MN: Testing, Testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a quick test. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Jan 15 04:01:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7149 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jan 1999 12:01:29 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 12:01:29 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA06664 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:01:08 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 12:01:08 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09035; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:01:03 GMT Message-Id: <199901151201.MAA09035@uks447> Date: 15 Jan 99 09:52:42 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: [l-nomic-d] MN: Testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And let's try that again, after I've received the joining notice. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Jan 15 06:42:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 225 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jan 1999 14:42:39 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 14:42:39 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA25709 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:42:12 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 14:42:11 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10931; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:42:08 GMT Message-Id: <199901151442.OAA10931@uks447> Date: 15 Jan 99 12:39:00 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: One More Test Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At least these seem to be getting through to the home account... -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Jan 15 12:27:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3214 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jan 1999 20:27:41 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 20:27:41 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA19237 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:27:21 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 20:27:20 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA03583; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:27:17 GMT Message-Id: <199901152027.UAA03583@uks447> Date: 15 Jan 99 16:36:27 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Fwd: Game States w/e 15/1/99 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ORCL_31751959_0_0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --=_ORCL_31751959_0_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, it didn't work so I suppose I should send it here instead. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com --=_ORCL_31751959_0_0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 content-type: message/rfc822 Date: 15 Jan 99 12:27:15 From:"Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To:MCNomic Subject:MN: Game States w/e 15/1/99 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding:7bit Content-Type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just on the off chance that this gets through when nothing else seems to have done for the last couple of days, here are the current game states. As of 12:32 GMT 15/1/99 the game states were as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long Jon 11-January-1999 15:13 12 MN-C Vanilla PaulWay 15-January-1999 12:20 [1] 13 MN-G Flag not in play 14 MN-B CF 84 dave 11-January-1999 16:09 15 MN-R Rutts dave 12-January-1999 08:01 [1] a bit cheeky, since I've only just sent my move. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle --=_ORCL_31751959_0_0-- From Mon Jan 18 04:55:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17398 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Jan 1999 12:55:10 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 12:55:10 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA07190 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:54:48 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 12:54:48 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA11167; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:54:44 GMT Message-Id: <199901181254.MAA11167@uks447> Date: 18 Jan 99 12:27:32 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 29 - Passed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just remembered - one of the messages which was lost to the foobar list was my notification of what happened with EP 29. It has been uploaded onto the web site, though. Just for the record though, here is the summary - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Raised by Dunx, 17/12/98 Reissued by Dunx, 12/01/99 (due to uncertain status) PaulWay voted FOR - it passed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Jan 18 04:55:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17423 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Jan 1999 12:55:19 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 12:55:19 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA07224 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:54:57 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 12:54:57 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA11251; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:54:52 GMT Message-Id: <199901181254.MAA11251@uks447> Date: 18 Jan 99 12:29:16 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Sun Arise Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: These are some of my thoughts following on from dave's suggestion about reorganising the ruleset. I apologise in advance for the lecturing tone and the length, but I'm just trying to get a handle on things. First of all, we need to identify why we might want to reorganise the ruleset. The oft-stated goal of this game is to produce a set of rules for MC, and to achieve that goal satisfactorily the ruleset should be readable straight through, in a similar way to the rules for a standard game (board game, roleplaying game, whatever). What is it that makes such rulesets readable? Several things, I think [MN comments are bracketed thus]: a) progressiveness - the basic concepts are always explained first [I reckon this is one of the most fundamental conflicts between the 'readable ruleset' goal and the way a Nomic is played, since Rules tend to get added to a Nomic ruleset in time order. [The use of sections in the MN ruleset ameliorates this effect somewhat. Also, an effort has been made to address this further with the out-of-sequence rule ordering in some sections, but if anything that just makes things *more* confusing. [No renumbering Proposal has ever, to my knowledge, been implemented.] b) grouping - similar concepts are clumped together [we already have something like this within MN with the sectional format, but could this be improved? Made more flexible, perhaps?] c) language - most games aim to use the simplest appropriate language in order to explain concepts clearly and unambiguously. [the language in MN can be a bit high-flown, not to mention inconsistent in style (which is largely inevitable in any multi- authored document). I know I'm as guilty of prolixity as anyone, but there are reasons behind it - trying to cover all the angles is one, and attempting to offer hooks for extension is another.] d) cross-referencing - related ideas may have links between them. [The HTML version of the ruleset goes some way to addressing this, but doesn't deal with exclusions and exceptions to a rule. [Unfortunately, explicit cross-referencing is anathema to a Nomic ruleset, since every single link from one Rule to another needs to be maintained, which places an additional burden on the Proposer.] e) indexing - perhaps not for the simpler board games, but if you look at the rules for an RPG or wargame you will find an index. [The closest analogue we have to this in MN is the series of Action tables, and while these are a very useful, they are incomplete (only covering Actions) and quite difficult to use (since you have to know which phase the Action operates in beforehand). [An index has the same issues associated with it as cross-referencing, unless the index is generated (much as the HTML ruleset is).] f) duplication - if an idea is important, it may be explained in brief where it is significant with a more detailed explanation elsewhere; or vital information may be summarised in a quick reference appendix. [The whole way in which MN is written is intended to eliminate duplication, since duplication requires maintenance.] How we actually might go about restructuring the existing ruleset to try and achieve these goals is beyond me at the moment. The stylistic issues can only really be addressed by sensitive copy editing (particularly ticklish in a Nomic context because of the importance of rule interpretation), but I think we can probably modify the structure of the ruleset to make such changes easier to accommodate. The following structural ideas occur: 1. turn the ruleset into a database - I believe William Li did this with the Thring ruleset when he was Speaker of that Nomic. Basically, this approach means that the Ruleset as distributed is never the master version, but is generated by reading through the records in the database. The major advantage of this strategy is that renumbering, cross-referencing, and indexing all become relatively trivial. The disadvantage is lack of transferrability: look at what happened to Thring when William left the game (AFAIK it's still dead - any more active Thring watchers out there care to correct me? Paul?) There are actually lots and lots of counter-arguments to this approach, and it would be tremendously fun to go through them, but then again it's not worth the time. 2. turn the ruleset into native HTML - Kevan had a go at this a while ago, and I think it was generally agreed that it didn't work terribly well (this is distinct from the HTML ruleset which is currently published - that is generated from the text file version, and will be again as soon as I work out to get the BASIC program which does the conversion to work again). The primary perceived weakness at the time seemed to be that each section had its own file. This made downloading and printing harder. But possibly more significant is that HTML is not one language - it has changed over time, and different browsers work in different ways. At least text files are fairly universal. 3. split the ruleset - this is something dave mentioned, and obviously has a resonance with the HTML ruleset idea, but splitting into multiple text files makes more sense if we isolate the Nomic and MC components. What I would suggest would be three sections: a contents table, the Nomic mechanics, and the MC rules themselves. Any generated index pages (see below) wouldn't be considered as part of the ruleset proper. 4. write more indexing tools - effectively, this is an extension of the current text->HTML conversion, where we could write an indexing tool that generates one or more indices of the ruleset. I was thinking of two different indices - one for the text ruleset which lists section numbers, and one for the HTML ruleset which provides accurate bookmark references. The main issue with automatic indexing tools is that they do not know which are the important occurrences of particular words. 5. promote the tables - group the Action, emporium and token tables to make them easier to find, and expand them to provide better indexing into the ruleset. I suppose the answer (as far as there can be a single answer at all) is some combination of all of these. What do people think? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Jan 19 13:44:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31023 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Jan 1999 21:39:15 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 21:39:15 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 102irj-0001JD-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:39:15 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:33:13 GMT Message-ID: <36a6f704.2528864@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 37 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Seven -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Proposal 581 - Frozen P's [Multiple] { Comment: This is an attempt to implement the moratorium state that dave = suggested. Given that the purpose of such a moratorium is to prevent gross Ruleset changes so we can get on and play test, there are to my mind two ways = of introducing such a moratorium: 1. ban all Proposals, relying on EPs to fix the ruleset 2. ban new Rules only, preventing only new features but allowing the normal process for ruleset fixes. I've gone for the second option, since this has a lower impact on which parts of the ruleset have to be suspended (Kudos can be kept active, = for example), and also permits the new Proposal type described below. Note that this Proposal does not cause a moratorium to be declared immediately, it merely introduces the mechanism for such a thing. } [Amendment: The Ice Age Starts Here] Amend Rule 0.4.1 (Proposals) by adding the following Proposal types: * Freeze - To place Mornington Nomic in the Frozen state. * Unfreeze - To place Mornington Nomic in the Fluid state. [Enactment: The Ice Man Cometh] Mornington Nomic shall have an overriding state which may be either Fluid or Frozen. The current value of this state shall be published on the Mornington Nomic web site by the Speaker. The effect of these state values is to control which Proposal types are valid, as follows: * Fluid - all Proposal types are valid except for Unfreeze. * Frozen - Enactment, Action, Special Ruleset and Freeze Proposals are = not valid. If a currently invalid Proposal type is contained within a Multiple Proposal, the whole Multiple Proposal shall be considered invalid. This Rule takes precedence over Rule 0.4.1 in specifying which types of Proposals may be submitted. [Enactment: Ground State] On enactment of this Rule, Mornington Nomic Nomic shall be placed in the state of "Fluid". This Rule shall then repeal itself. { Comment: Anybody care to guess what Gaseous might mean? } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Proposal 582 - Overcharged [Enactment] In Turin '57, the Rules for and effects of Charge shall only be applied if Current information (as defined in Rule 1.19.1) is available for the nominated Map. Otherwise, all references to Charge and Current shall be ignored. { Comment: This should (rather obviously) be placed in the Turin '57 Special Ruleset. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Proposal 583 - It's Pining For the Fjords [Multiple] [Amendment: It Has Shuffled Off This Mortal Coil] Amend Rule 0.10.1 (The Lounges) such that the address of the Discussion Lounge is changed to read thus: " The Discussion Lounge - l-nomic-d@eGroups.com" =46urther, change the last paragraph to read thus: "To subscribe to any of the Lounges, send a blank email to "l-nomic--subscribe@egroups.com", where "" is the appropriate letter." [Amendment: It Has Joined the Choir Invisible] Amend Rule 1.1.2 (A New Game) to add the following text: "If a New Game does not achieve the conditions required for it to begin, and it does not seem likely that it will in the near future, then the Speaker may declare that Game to be void and is permitted to start a fresh Game in its place." { Comment: Inspired, it will come as no surprise to hear, by Game 13 and it's long lingering beginning. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Jan 19 13:44:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31013 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Jan 1999 21:39:14 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 1999 21:39:14 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 102irf-0001JD-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:39:12 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:33:11 GMT Message-ID: <36a5f658.2356947@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 37: Voting Results on Week 36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 1 38 3 0 0 16 12 16 Halved: 0 19 1 0 6 8 --------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 -0 I I -0 +0 Decisiveness: +0 +0 +0 +0 n n +0 +0 [a] Voting/Own: -0 -0 -0 -0 a a -0 -0 c c=20 EP FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +0 t t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 -0 i i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: +0 +0 +0 +0 v v +0 +0 e e=20 Award Ceremony: +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 +0 [b] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 +0 Final Kudos: 0 22 1 0 6 8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [a] difficult to be decisive when there have been no Proposals to Vote on, but I am following precedent. [b] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - none CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - none Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Jan 20 10:33:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3608 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Jan 1999 18:33:22 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 1999 18:33:22 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA07411 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:33:22 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 20 Jan 1999 18:33:22 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA08332; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:33:19 GMT Message-Id: <199901201833.SAA08332@uks447> Date: 20 Jan 99 16:27:35 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Alternative Game Structures Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been having a few thoughts about other ways we could play Mornington Nomic, in particular about some Special Rulesets which strike at the core of the Game - how we move Pieces around. In the beginning, a fundamental decision was taken about the MC part of Mornington Nomic: that each player should have one piece, and that this Piece should follow the Lines on the Map (Y1W1, Proposal 009 - Keeping The Piece). Despite all the innovations with Actions, Tokens, Charge, and all the other gubbins that has accreted around the Game, this primary assertion has remained unchanged (reworded, perhaps, but not changed). So we have a game where one piece moves around the map in a manner not dissimilar to games such as Ludo or Monopoly (in may ways more interesting, to be sure, but not all that fundamentally different). I was wondering what the game would be like if we followed a different leg of the Trousers of Time. A couple of ideas for alternative models - 1. "a bit like Go" - in Go, the player can place pieces ('stones') anywhere on the board, the aim being to form self-sufficient islands of these stones (termed 'armies') - any army which has no free space around it (breathing room, if you will) is removed from the board, those stones being considered to have been captured by your opponent. Go can be viewed as a model of the problem of lines of supply in a military campaign, where an army can only survive if it has some room around it. Could something like this be made to work on the Map? The big disadvantage with a Go-like game is that the current GSD format is inadequate - it would be very easy to end up with a list of all the stations on the Map. I also don't know what the object of the Game might be in this context. Building an arny surronding MC seems a little easy. 2. "a bit like chess" - rather than just one piece, each Player is given several, which all start the Game on the Map. Different Pieces could have different powers (only knights could Strile, for example). The object of the Game becomes either to move your chief piece to MC, or to capture your opponents' chief pieces. 3. leaving a trail - Moves are as currently, but each Move leaves a Piece at the previous location. There could be rules on line of sight between Pieces of the same Player, which could be disrupted by other Players' Pieces and such things as Blocks (I don't know where discontinuous moves such as Straddle or Wild fit in here). I suppose this could be a way of implementing the Go idea - each Move is persistent and when there is line of sight then those Pieces are part of the same army, but when a discontinuous Play breaks line of sight or it is disrupted by another Player's actions then a new Army is formed. What do people think? Any other ideas? Or is this just an example of the kind of thing that any moratorium is intended to prevent? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Jan 20 18:15:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32171 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jan 1999 02:14:56 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 1999 02:14:56 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA00729; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.ari.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma000539; Thu, 21 Jan 99 12:14:32 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:31 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428E43@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:11:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Alternative Game Structures Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@U...] > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 2:28 AM > To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com > Subject: MN: Alternative Game Structures > > What do people think? Any other ideas? > One other possibility is that you have a main Piece, and subsidiary objects ('pegs' comes to mind) which you can use as part of your play. I have to admit, though, I prefer the idea of making Mornomic act like the ISIHAC team and York-style MC over making another completely different game which is related to MC only by playing on the LU. I'll admit, I'm slack in not proposing more things and fulfilling my first objective, but I'd rather just play at the moment - I'm rather happy with the idea of getting used to the ruleset as it is now rather than trying to play in the face of constantly shifting objectives. (Mutters something vaguely intelligble about basing one game's strategy on the use of the Token Running action which someone then repealed, despite my vote against. Or something.) As ever, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. If it doesn't seem to work, contact me and I'll fix it. (c) 1998 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Jan 21 02:54:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8269 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jan 1999 10:54:44 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 1999 10:54:44 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA21446 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:54:34 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 21 Jan 1999 10:54:34 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA08685; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:54:31 GMT Message-Id: <199901211054.KAA08685@uks447> Date: 21 Jan 99 10:38:39 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-9-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 21-Jan-99 02:11 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Alternative Game Structures Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> What do people think? Any other ideas? >> >One other possibility is that you have a main Piece, and subsidiary objects >('pegs' comes to mind) which you can use as part of your play. That chimes quite nicely with some of my own ideas - a kind of mix between the chess and 'trail' approaches. Interesting. > ... I'd rather >just play at the moment - I'm rather happy with the idea of getting used to >the ruleset as it is now rather than trying to play in the face of >constantly shifting objectives. That's fair enough. If you want a relatively static ruleset for a bit, I would suggest voting for the moratorium proposal (Frozen P's). What I was suggesting, though, was a rather more radical series of Special Rulesets rather than a complete restructuring of the As to the relationship between MN as it is now and ISIHAC/York... well yes, but yet and at the same time, no - I don't think there is necessarily any consensus about how many pieces are on the board under the control of a particular player. In fact, I would suggest that some of the more complex token loading and logic map manoeuvres would be unplayable in anything except a multi-piece world. Still, it sounds like I should restrict my ventures along the wilder shores of game mechanics for the moment. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From David Kenning Thu Jan 21 12:14:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24383 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jan 1999 20:14:37 -0000 Received: from bizet.which.co.uk (143.41.16.1) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 1999 20:14:37 -0000 Received: by bizet.which.co.uk; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA08900; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:24:59 GMT Message-Id: From: David Kenning To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:58:23 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: alternative game types Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >1. "a bit like Go" This is a very interesting idea. I've never played Go, but I'm vaguely familiar with the idea of it, and I think it offers some very interesting possibilities. Perhaps something along Risk lines would be more feasible -- starting with a small army on an outlying station and building and spreading towards MC (or any other specified goal). And instead of taking over groups of countries, you'd take over lines... >Go can be viewed as a model of the problem of lines of supply in a >military campaign, where an army can only survive if it has some room >around it. Could something like this be made to work on the Map? I think it could, but (to state the obvious) it would be difficult. >2. "a bit like chess" Again, a very interesting idea. You could even have things like pawn promotion on reaching zone 6 (very tricky when pawns have a maximum LV of 1), while rooks (or their equivalent) would be able to move any number of places in a single turn, but only on a single line..... Obviously, the piece types and move options would have to be thought out very carefully. I think ultimately you'd probably have to treat this as a chess variant, rather than a MC variant. >3. leaving a trail This idea reminds me of that old arcade game (Worms?) where you have to chop off your opponent's tail by cunning manoeuvering. I suppose instead of adding their tail to your own, you could get points and their tail would be destroyed, and of course, a head on collision would be disastrous. >What do people think? Any other ideas? How about Pacman MC? One player is Pacman, the others are ghosts. You'd have to do away with most position changing actions, and modify stuff about LV (maybe have fixed LV). The object would be to travel round the board collecting apples from various points, the final apple being located at MC. Hmm, maybe a bit complicated. >Or is this just an example of the kind of thing that any moratorium >is intended to prevent? Well, maybe this isn't the time and place to start introducing big new ideas, but I'm very interested anyway. Another problem is the small number of active players at the moment, which would probably make these variations either uninteresting or unplayable (witness game 13), but it's certainly worth thinking about for the future. dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Jan 22 04:50:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16677 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Jan 1999 12:50:06 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 12:50:06 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA28612; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:49:58 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 22 Jan 1999 12:49:58 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA27887; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:49:55 GMT Message-Id: <199901221249.MAA27887@uks447> Date: 22 Jan 99 12:00:49 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic@f..., l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States w/e 22/1/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As of 12:00 GMT 22/1/99 the game states were as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long PaulWay 18-January-1999 13:52 [1] 12 MN-C Vanilla Drone 20-January-1999 06:19 [2] 13 MN-G Flag not in play 14 MN-B CF 84 dave 20-January-1999 09:46 15 MN-R Rutts dave 22-January-1999 02:51 [1] ... which was a Time Out. Jon has indicated he isn't going to play a Move after all, so it's down to PaulWay. [2] friend Drone is currently controlled by dave. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Jan 26 12:53:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19656 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Jan 1999 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.27) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 1999 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 105FQp-0005Rg-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:49:56 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic@f..., l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:43:52 GMT Message-ID: <36ae288b.260193@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 37 Week End Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not an extension, just a bit of information - the Week ended at 12:00 GMT= today as usual, I just haven't got round to doing the Week End stuff. I'll do it tomorrow, once the haggis bloat has worn off. Cheers. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Wed Jan 27 14:46:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7428 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Jan 1999 22:46:04 -0000 Received: from post-11.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.40) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 1999 22:46:04 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 105dij-0007j2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:46:01 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:39:52 GMT Message-ID: <36af92c6.1980664@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week38: Voting Results on Week 37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 581 Frozen P's - 1 - 3 Inquorate [a] 582 Holy Smoke, Batman! - 1 2 3 Inquorate 583 Terminal Bore 2 1 - 3 Inquorate -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 581 (Dunx) - PAS - - - - - - 582 (Dunx) - PAS - - - - - - 583 (Dunx) - PAS - - - - - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 0 22 1 0 0 16 6 8 Halved: 0 11 0 3 4 --------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 I I I -0 +0 Decisiveness: +0 +0 +0 n n n +0 +0 [b] Voting/Own: -0 -0 -0 a a a -0 -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 t t t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 i i i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: +0 +0 +0 v v v +0 +0 e e e Award Ceremony: +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 [c] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 +0 Final Kudos: 0 14 0 0 0 16 3 4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [a] no Votes were received this Week, with the exception of Dunx who chose to Pass since all the Proposals were eir own. [b] I'm tempted to award myself three Kudos for at least consciously Passing, but that smacks of cheating. [c] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - none CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - none Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Wed Jan 27 14:46:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7414 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Jan 1999 22:46:03 -0000 Received: from post-11.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.40) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 1999 22:46:03 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 105dih-0007j2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:45:59 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:39:48 GMT Message-ID: <36b193bf.2230669@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 38 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Eight -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- { Speaker's Comment: All the Proposals this Week are reproposals of the Week 37 Proposals (with slightly modified names for the purposes of uniqueness), since no Votes were cast last Week. Also, no new Proposals were received (including from the Speaker emself). If you feel this is an abuse of power, then feel free to raise a Point of Order, but Rule 0.5.4 says: "If a Rule fails to reach Quorum, its Proposer may repropose it = unchanged during the next Nomic Week." } Proposal 584 - Refrozen P's [Multiple] { Comment: This is an attempt to implement the moratorium state that dave = suggested. Given that the purpose of such a moratorium is to prevent gross Ruleset changes so we can get on and play test, there are to my mind two ways = of introducing such a moratorium: 1. ban all Proposals, relying on EPs to fix the ruleset 2. ban new Rules only, preventing only new features but allowing the normal process for ruleset fixes. I've gone for the second option, since this has a lower impact on which parts of the ruleset have to be suspended (Kudos can be kept active, = for example), and also permits the new Proposal type described below. Note that this Proposal does not cause a moratorium to be declared immediately, it merely introduces the mechanism for such a thing. } [Amendment: The Ice Age Starts Here] Amend Rule 0.4.1 (Proposals) by adding the following Proposal types: * Freeze - To place Mornington Nomic in the Frozen state. * Unfreeze - To place Mornington Nomic in the Fluid state. [Enactment: The Ice Man Cometh] Mornington Nomic shall have an overriding state which may be either Fluid or Frozen. The current value of this state shall be published on the Mornington Nomic web site by the Speaker. The effect of these state values is to control which Proposal types are valid, as follows: * Fluid - all Proposal types are valid except for Unfreeze. * Frozen - Enactment, Action, Special Ruleset and Freeze Proposals are = not valid. If a currently invalid Proposal type is contained within a Multiple Proposal, the whole Multiple Proposal shall be considered invalid. This Rule takes precedence over Rule 0.4.1 in specifying which types of Proposals may be submitted. [Enactment: Ground State] On enactment of this Rule, Mornington Nomic Nomic shall be placed in the state of "Fluid". This Rule shall then repeal itself. { Comment: Anybody care to guess what Gaseous might mean? } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Proposal 585 - Overcharged (Again) [Enactment] In Turin '57, the Rules for and effects of Charge shall only be applied if Current information (as defined in Rule 1.19.1) is available for the nominated Map. Otherwise, all references to Charge and Current shall be ignored. { Comment: This should (rather obviously) be placed in the Turin '57 Special Ruleset. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Proposal 586 - It's Still Pining For the Fjords [Multiple] [Amendment: It Has Shuffled Off This Mortal Coil] Amend Rule 0.10.1 (The Lounges) such that the address of the Discussion Lounge is changed to read thus: " The Discussion Lounge - l-nomic-d@eGroups.com" =46urther, change the last paragraph to read thus: "To subscribe to any of the Lounges, send a blank email to "l-nomic--subscribe@egroups.com", where "" is the appropriate letter." [Amendment: It Has Joined the Choir Invisible] Amend Rule 1.1.2 (A New Game) to add the following text: "If a New Game does not achieve the conditions required for it to begin, and it does not seem likely that it will in the near future, then the Speaker may declare that Game to be void and is permitted to start a fresh Game in its place." { Comment: Inspired, it will come as no surprise to hear, by Game 13 and it's long lingering beginning. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Jan 27 21:52:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22359 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Jan 1999 05:52:33 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 05:52:33 -0000 Received: from [208.169.216.67] (cvl216067.columbus.rr.com [208.169.216.67]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA27093 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:56:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:54:42 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 38 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I vote Yes for all of them. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Jan 27 22:03:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26388 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Jan 1999 06:03:52 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 06:03:52 -0000 Received: from [208.169.216.67] (cvl216067.columbus.rr.com [208.169.216.67]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA27774 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:07:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:05:57 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 38 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Damn. Everyone except Dunx, ignore that post. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From David Kenning Thu Jan 28 02:19:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5198 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Jan 1999 10:19:20 -0000 Received: from bizet.which.co.uk (143.41.16.1) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 10:19:20 -0000 Received: by bizet.which.co.uk; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA28067; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:29:52 GMT Message-Id: From: David Kenning To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:13:54 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week38: Voting Results on Week 37 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [a] no Votes were received this Week, with the exception of Dunx who > chose to Pass since all the Proposals were eir own. > apologies for my slackness, but it's been one deadline after another round here this week... dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Jan 28 07:00:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9651 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Jan 1999 15:00:24 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 15:00:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 16611 invoked from network); 28 Jan 1999 15:01:34 -0000 Received: from relay2.force9.net (195.166.128.25) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 15:01:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 12083 invoked from network); 28 Jan 1999 14:54:06 -0000 Received: from 462.hiper02.shef.dialup.force9.net (HELO sprout) (195.166.145.206) by relay2.force9.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 14:54:06 -0000 From: "Jefferis" To: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:00:03 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Subject: MN: Un-idling. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right. I'm un-idling very shortly (Monday in fact), at which point I'll probably join a few games and propose a few proposals. The Long Game and Capture The Flag look mighty enticing... See you then.. -Graeme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Feb 1 23:26:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14011 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 07:25:55 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 07:25:55 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA28260; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:25:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.ari.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma028230; Tue, 2 Feb 99 17:25:37 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:25:27 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428E5A@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:25:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 38 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] Damn. Everyone except Dunx, ignore that post. What post? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. If it doesn't seem to work, contact me and I'll fix it. (c) 1998 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Feb 1 23:31:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15704 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 07:31:07 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 07:31:07 -0000 Received: from [208.169.219.110] (cvl219110.columbus.rr.com [208.169.219.110]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA21097 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:35:07 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:33:15 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 38 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Damn. Everyone except Dunx, ignore that post. > >What post? This one. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@s... Tue Feb 2 02:21:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 344 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 10:21:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mojo.myownemail.com) (208.223.204.107) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 10:21:03 -0000 Received: from 208.223.204.107 [208.223.204.107] by mojo.myownemail.com (SMTPD32-4.07) id A1F197C011A; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:22:41 CST5EDT From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:22:41 -0600 X-Mailer: Allaire ColdFusion Application Server Subject: MN: The Prodigal Returns Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again. The gap minded, I return; Internet access is once again within my sights, albeit a little woozily - enough to keep an eye on my email, return to the Nomic and probably manage a Game or two. I've nowhere near enough time or space at the moment to even consider taking the Speaker trousers back (and Dunx appears to have been doing a fine, fine job of things in my absence), so I think I'll just shuffle into the back row, screech out a chair and join back in as a Player, seeing what the imminent Week-End brings. Glad to be back, Kevan _____________________________________________ Get your free personalized email address at http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Feb 2 04:11:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5201 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 12:11:29 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 12:11:29 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA02730 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:11:22 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 12:11:22 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09208; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:11:18 GMT Message-Id: <199902021211.MAA09208@uks447> Date: 02 Feb 99 11:03:26 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-22-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 02-Feb-99 10:22 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: The Prodigal Returns Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome back, sir. I hope the odd speck of paint I've added doesn't offend your eye too much, although given your fairly brief absence perhaps I should have thought a little longer about the name of the new Lounge. Still - well meant in any case. See you in the games. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Feb 2 14:57:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23189 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 22:57:09 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 22:57:09 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA28557; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:57:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.ari.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma028415; Wed, 3 Feb 99 08:56:46 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:56:35 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428E5D@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:56:33 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: The Prodigal Returns Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: kevan@s... [SMTP:kevan@s...] > So it _is_ somethingorother.com! Kevan, it brings a smile to my face to know how very like you this is - not particularly boring or ordinary, but very typical. And I thought you were being metasyntactic. > The gap minded, I return; [...] so I think I'll just shuffle into the back > row, screech out a chair and join back in as a Player, seeing what the > imminent Week-End brings. > Good to hear from you! Glad you've managed to get back to the wonderful, 75% useless world of email. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. If it doesn't seem to work, contact me and I'll fix it. (c) 1998 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 2 15:01:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25662 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 23:01:31 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 23:01:31 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 107oov-0000x3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:01:25 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:55:07 GMT Message-ID: <36b7815f.321520@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 39: Voting Results for Year Week 38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 584 Refrozen P's 4 1 - 3 Passes 585 Overcharged (Again) 4 1 - 3 Passes 586 It's Still Pining ... 4 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 584 (Dunx) FOR PAS - - - FOR - FOR FOR 585 (Dunx) FOR PAS - - - FOR - FOR FOR 586 (Dunx) FOR PAS - - - FOR - FOR FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 0 14 0 0 0 16 3 4 Halved: 0 7 0 0 1 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +12 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 I I +0 I -0 +0 Decisiveness: +3 +0 +0 n n +3 n +3 +3 Voting/Own: -0 -0 -0 a a +0 a -0 -0 c c +0 c EP FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 t t +0 t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 i i +0 i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: +5 +0 +0 v v +5 v +5 +5 e e +0 e Award Ceremony: +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 +0 = [a] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +8 +15 +0 +0 +8 +8 +8 Final Kudos: 8 22 0 0 0 8 16 9 10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [a] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - none CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - none Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 2 15:01:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25675 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Feb 1999 23:01:33 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 23:01:33 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 107oow-0000x3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:01:27 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:55:08 GMT Message-ID: <36b881d0.435116@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 39 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Nine -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 587 - If Life Gives You Blocks, Make a Blockade [Amendment] Add the following to Rule 1.9.1 "Basic Blocks" "A Player may perform the Action [Blocking ] multiple times in = one turn, but the cost increases by 1 Red token each time. (i.e., the second Block costs 2 Re, the third 3, etc...)" -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 589 - Enter Stage Right [Amendment] In Rule 1.18.2 (Gambits And Their Costs), rename the "The Davis Memorial Manoeuvre" to the "The Davis 'Gap' Memorial Manoeuvre". { Comments : Eerily more appropriate than the original, if you know the background, actually. Hello again, either way. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 590 - Getting to the Point [Multiple] { Comments : An idle muse; to have a points system based on games you've = won, affected by the relative points of your opponents. Maybe an interesting counterpoint to Proposal-slanted Kudos, maybe = not. } 1. What Do Points Mean? [Enactment; 1.1] Each Player has a number of Points, which shall be listed on the = Mornington Nomic Web page, and which may never be less than zero. If a Player has= more Points than any other Player, e is known as the Grandmaster. Whenever a Player Wins a Game of Mornington Crescent, e gains one = Point for every other Player in that Game (other than Team-mates) who had more = Points than em, and also gains two bonus Points. Whenever a Player Loses a Game of Mornington Crescent, e loses one = Point. Upon Enactment of this Rule, Points for each Player shall be = calculated from existing records of completed Games, Games being considered to = have been played in numerical sequence. This paragraph shall then remove = itself from the Ruleset. 2. A Little Help From My Friends [Enactment; 2.6] When a Player Wins the Game, all members of eir Team are also = considered to have Won the Game. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 591 - Rewrite (The Title) [Multiple] { Comments : Attempting to coax a little clarity into the ruleset; a way to propose the rewriting of rules, without it counting as = one of your three Proposals. I've often not bothered doing = little (but useful) rewrites because I've had more pressing things = to propose; this seems a nice solution. } 1. Only Twelve Disciples [Amendment] To the list of Proposal Types in Rule 0.4.1 (Proposals), add (to the bottom):- * Rewrite - To rewrite a single Rule, changing style without altering content. 2. It Could Be More Dramatic, If You Know What I Mean [Enactment] A Proposal may be of type "Rewrite", proposing to reword a single Rule= (or part of a single Rule) in a manner which improves its style and = readability, but retains the original implementation and impact of any mechanics in= that Rule. Rewrite Proposals do not count towards a Player's Weekly Proposal = limit, but no more than two Rewrite Proposals may be made by a Player in any one Week. 3. GCSE Coursework [Amendment] In Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos), add the following element:- = +--------------------------------------------------------+---------------= -+ | Event | Kudos = Modifier | = +--------------------------------------------------------+---------------= -+ | Having a "Rewrite" Proposal pass | +3 = | = +--------------------------------------------------------+---------------= -+ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Feb 3 03:12:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10397 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Feb 1999 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Feb 1999 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA29255 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:11:51 GMT Received: from uks447.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 3 Feb 1999 11:11:51 UT Received: by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA05947; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:11:48 GMT Message-Id: <199902031111.LAA05947@uks447> Date: 03 Feb 99 10:07:01 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-26-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 02-Feb-99 22:55 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 39 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for my cack handed numbering of Proposals this Week. Proposal 588 is not missing, I just counted wrongly. I'm not going to reissue the Proposals though - there doesn't seem much point. 588 will be marked as void in the results at the next Week End. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sun Feb 7 21:55:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27695 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Feb 1999 05:55:43 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 1999 05:55:43 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA24984; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:55:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma024926; Mon, 8 Feb 99 15:55:28 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1P0BWNH1>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:55:12 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428E7A@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:55:09 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Games to play Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Er, can we have an update on the current state-of-play in the games? I think there are lot of them waiting on dave and, despite promises of action, we haven't seen anything from him. Dave, can you send me a copy of your most recent moves, just in case there's a problem with you posting to the lists? Reach me at 'paulway@e...' or at the address in this email. Thanks, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. If it doesn't seem to work, contact me and I'll fix it. (c) 1998 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Feb 8 16:05:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9418 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Feb 1999 00:04:33 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 00:04:33 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA29390; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:04:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029179; Tue, 9 Feb 99 10:03:59 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1P0BWSGC>; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:03:42 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428E7C@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:01:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Game States w/c 8/2/99 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, February 09, 1999 1:17 AM, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@U...] wrote: > 13 MN-G Flag not in play [1] > [1] and shortly to be declared void. How about a Finsbury Option game > instead? Sounds lovely. I'll be in it. Fnord, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. If it doesn't seem to work, contact me and I'll fix it. (c) 1998 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Feb 9 05:01:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22671 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Feb 1999 13:01:15 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 13:01:15 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA22685 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:01:02 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 13:01:01 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27927; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:01:01 GMT Message-Id: <199902091301.NAA27927@uksn82> Date: 09 Feb 99 12:59:10 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game 13 - Capture the Flag Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As described in Rule 1.1.2 (A New Game), the Speaker may declare a Game void if it does not achieve its starting conditions. Well, Game 13 has been an incipient game of Capture the Flag since 19 November 1998 and it hasn't started yet. I declare Game 13 Capture the Flag to be void. A new Game will be announced for the Game 13 slot shortly. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Feb 9 05:06:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23846 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Feb 1999 13:04:31 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 13:04:31 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA23044 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:04:21 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 13:04:21 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA29030; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:04:20 GMT Message-Id: <199902091304.NAA29030@uksn82> Date: 09 Feb 99 13:02:18 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game 13 Finsbury Option Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: A new Game 13 will be starting shortly in the Garden Lounge. Unless there are strenuous objections, it shall be a Finsbury Option Game. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From David Kenning Tue Feb 9 09:41:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30076 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Feb 1999 17:41:31 -0000 Received: from bizet.which.co.uk (143.41.16.1) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 17:41:31 -0000 Received: by bizet.which.co.uk; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA11321; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:52:37 GMT Message-Id: From: David Kenning To: 'mn' Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:55:44 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Deactivating Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry folks for holding play up in just about every game. I just don't have the energy for this at the moment. I think it's for the best if I go inactive for a little while. toodle pip for now, dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 9 16:33:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15937 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Feb 1999 00:31:54 -0000 Received: from finch-punt-12.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.36) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 00:31:54 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10ANZB-0004iF-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:31:45 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:25:18 GMT Message-ID: <36c1d0d1.850788@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2. Week 40 - Voting Results for Week 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 587 If Life Gives You Blocks ... 5 1 - 3 Passes 588 --- void --- [a] 589 Enter Stage Right 5 1 - 3 Passes 590 Getting to the Point 5 1 - 3 Passes 591 Rewrite (The Title) 4 1 1 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 587 (RiffRaff) FOR FOR FOR - - FOR - FOR PAS [b] 589 (Kevan) FOR FOR FOR - - PAS - FOR FOR 590 (Kevan) FOR FOR FOR - - PAS - FOR FOR 591 (Kevan) AGA FOR FOR - - PAS - FOR FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 8 22 0 0 0 8 16 9 10 Halved: 4 11 0 4 4 5 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +14 +0 +5 AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 I I -1 I -0 -0 Decisiveness: +3 +3 +3 n n +3 n +3 +3 Voting/Own: -0 -0 -0 a a +0 a -0 -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 t t +0 t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: -0 -0 -0 i i +0 i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: +0 +5 +5 v v +5 v +5 +5 e e e Award Ceremony: +0 +3 +0 +4 +0 +3 = [c] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +3 +11 +8 +0 +25 +8 +16 Final Kudos: 11 22 8 0 0 33 16 17 21 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [a] just because I can't count... [b] I'm including dave's Votes, since although e is Inactive as I write this eir Inactivity was declared after Week End. Hence I've also worked through the Kudos calculations. [c] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - RiffRaff (If Life Give You Blocks ...) CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan (Getting to the Point) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 9 16:33:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16116 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Feb 1999 00:32:11 -0000 Received: from finch-punt-12.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.36) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 00:32:11 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10ANZC-0004iF-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:31:58 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:25:24 GMT Message-ID: <36c2d113.916762@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 40 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 592 - The Big Issue [Multiple] 1. My Last Copy, Ladies and Gentlemen [Amendment] To the Possession list in Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium), add:- +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Big Issue | 1 Br | Papery, Dispensable | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ { For those on foreign shores, the Big Issue is a magazine sold in aid of Britain's homeless, unique for being sold on the street by volunteers (who get 0.7 Bronze Tokens per sale, or something). They're a fairly common sight throughout the land, particularly our fair capital. An interestingly pressuring sales approach, really - I don't buy it because I've never found it a very interesting read, and I prefer to just give loose change to the homeless, yet there's too often an air of guilt when I respond in the negative to a "Big Issue, sir?" Tsk. } 2. The Big Issue [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Raising Big Issue] 1.7.x -1 Gr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Raising Big Issue]" to stir up the capital's Big Issue sellers. Upon performing this Action, a Big Issue Sale is put into effect for one Round. While a Big Issue Sale is in effect, a Player's Turn is illegal if, at the end of it, e is not carrying a Big Issue and e has not performed the Action of "[LV-3]" this Turn. { This was going to be "Busk Attack!", but carrying around a copy of the magazine to show future sellers that you've already got one seemed a pleasing feature. } 3. Fahrenheit 451 [Amendment] To the end of Rule 1.9.2 (Escalator Fires), add:- If any Players are situated at that Station, any Papery Possessions carried by them are destroyed. { While I think of it. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 593 - Proposal - "Line Velocity", starring Keanu Reeves [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Velocity-Bombing ] 1.7.x -2 Re [Removing Velocity Bomb] 1.7.x -3 Si ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Velocity-Bombing ]" to attach a Velocity Bomb to the targetted Player, who must be at a = Station adjacent to the Actioning Player. Upon performing this Action, the targetted Player gains a "Velocity Bomb (Dormant)" - an Indestructable Possession. If the LV of a Player carrying a Velocity Bomb (Dormant) is ever more than four, it is immediately replaced with a Velocity Bomb (Primed). At the end of a Player's Turn, if that Player is carrying a Velocity Bomb (Primed) and has an LV below five, all of eir Tokens and Possessions are destroyed, and eir LV is reduced to zero. A Player may perform the Action of "[Removing Velocity Bomb]" to destroy a single Velocity Bomb in eir Possession, provided that their Piece is situated at a British Rail Station. Upon performing this Action, a Player's LV is reduced to zero. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 594 - Not By a Long Chalk [Multiple] { The Chalk Farm rules seem a little unexciting and pointless at the moment; here's a bit of suggested rewording and replacement. } 1. Board Rubber [Repeals] Repeal Rules 2.2.1-2.2.3. 2. Chalk Farm Denial [Enactment] If any Piece is situated at Chalk Farm, the action of "[Opening MC]" may not be performed. { A new idea, replacing the old and slightly-over-powerful "all Termini on the same Line as you are Wild" thing. } 3. At This Time Of Night? [Enactment] If, at the end of any Player's Turn, that Player's Piece is situated south of the Thames, and eir Move was anything other than "Pass", that Turn shall be considered Illegal. { Rather than the currently-weak "You can't cross the Thames in Spoon", this strongly denies southerly Moves; it's impossible to cross the river southbound during your Move, and if you're Shunted there by another Player, you must either return north (through a Move, a Wild, a Home, or whatever) or Pass. } 4. House Keys [Enactment] When a Player performs an Action of "[Home: ]", e may claim a Zone Pass for any single Zone which contains that Station. { Reworded. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 595 - Stop, Lurk and Listen [Repeal] Repeal Rule 0.4.9 (Lurker Proposals). { Comment: I don't have any particular objection to this, but it has only ever = been used once to my knowledge and that Lurker is now a Player so there = doesn't seem much point any more. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 596 - A Small Matter of Definitions [Amendment] { Comment: The Finsbury Option is all very well, but it fails to define certain important attributes Stations on the new Lines. } Amend Rule 2.3.1 (More Lines To Play With) by adding the following text: "Stations on the Thameslink and North London lines which are not already defined have the following attributes (where Ct, Q and Z are Current, Quadrant and Zone respectively): +----------------------------------------------------+ | Station | Ct | Q | Z | +----------------------------------------------------+ | City Thameslink (TL) | 16 | 0 | 1 | | North Woolwich (NL) | 79 | 2 | 4 | | Silvertown & London City Airport (NL) | 79 | 2 | 3 | | Hackney Wick (NL) | 57 | 1 | 2 | | Homerton (NL) | 54 | 1 | 2 | | Hackney Central (NL) | 49 | 1 | 2 | | Dalston Kingsland (NL) | 45 | 1 | 2 | | Canonbury (NL) | 39 | 1 | 2 | | Caledonian Road & Barnsbury (NL) | 34 | 1 | 2 | | Camden Road (NL) | 25 | 1 | 2 | | Kentish Town West (NL) | 30 | 1 | 2 | | Gospel Oak (NL) | 32 | 1 | 2 | | Hampstead Heath (NL) | 34 | 1 | 2 | | Finchley Road & Frognal (NL) | 35 | 1 | 2 | | Brondesbury (NL) | 37 | 1 | 2 | | Brondesbury Park (NL) | 41 | 1 | 2 | | Kensal Rise (NL) | 46 | 1 | 2 | | Acton Central (NL) | 54 | 1 | 2 | | South Acton (NL) | 57 | 1 | 3 | +----------------------------------------------------+ "Connections are to be taken from the London Underground map at http://www.londontransport.co.uk/travel/und_map.html" { Comment: Phew! Had to use a ruler there... These should also be added to the Calculator. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 597 - Six Hours Can Make A Lot of Difference [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.6.2 (The Week-End) by replacing all occurrences of "11:59am" with "17:59". { Comment: Your Speaker is highly unlikely to do the Week-End stuff on a Tuesday lunchtime. As such, it seems more sensible to move it back to a point where it is conceivable that the paperwork will be done at the = Week-End. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 9 16:53:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26953 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Feb 1999 00:52:47 -0000 Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.27) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 00:52:47 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10ANtO-0001rZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:52:38 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:46:15 GMT Message-ID: <36c5d5da.2140055@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Player Points Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't forgotten to do the Player Points, I've just run out of energy = to finish them off this evening. I've worked out the actual scores, but need= to complete the web page displaying them. As a preview, though, the only Players with any Points at all are: PaulWay 2 Jonathan 3 miKi 4 Kevan 6 Dunx 6 Since there is a tie for the lead, there is no current Grandmaster. Proper page with chronology and the full whack later in the week. Also, would anybody be interested in a Zipped ruleset? I ask because at = 180k the text ruleset is becoming slow to load. Similarly, would it be of use to anyone if I zipped up the Proposal = archive? Having a local copy of Proposals to do text searches on can be useful, = and is currently a little on the painful side to obtain. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Feb 10 01:00:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11244 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Feb 1999 09:00:06 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 09:00:06 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA20480 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:59:54 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 08:59:54 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA24454; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:59:54 GMT Message-Id: <199902100859.IAA24454@uksn82> Date: 10 Feb 99 08:57:07 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-35-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 09-Feb-99 16:55 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Deactivating Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Sorry folks for holding play up in just about every game. I just don't have= >the energy for this at the moment. I think it's for the best if I go >inactive for a little while. Hope you can come back soon. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From David Kenning Wed Feb 10 02:41:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11502 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Feb 1999 10:40:35 -0000 Received: from bizet.which.co.uk (143.41.16.1) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 10:40:35 -0000 Received: by bizet.which.co.uk; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA20320; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:51:32 GMT Message-Id: From: David Kenning To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:16:12 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Deactivating Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hope you can come back soon. > shall do -- I'll remain hanging around as a spectator at least, but I just haven't got enough energy to think about moves at the moment. dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Wed Feb 10 22:55:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29810 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Feb 1999 06:55:27 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 06:55:27 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Aq1k-0001fI-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:55:09 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:48:46 GMT Message-ID: <36c40a0a.2806870@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: More on Player Points Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've uploaded the Player Points Archive to the web site. It illustrates, = I think, that participating widely does not guarantee a high level of = success. miKi in particular has been very successful in mostly competing games e = won. Also, note that I've reorganised the Proposal Archive slightly - Year 1 = and the EPs are on a separate page, Year 2 will be hived off when we turn into = the new Year. With any luck this will make things quicker to load. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Feb 11 09:44:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26695 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Feb 1999 16:45:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 16:45:06 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA22229 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:44:38 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 16:44:38 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA15124; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:44:36 GMT Message-Id: <199902111644.QAA15124@uksn82> Date: 11 Feb 99 16:28:16 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Delayed Game States Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Note to world: I have played several Moves in the last day (in Games 12-14) but none of them have turned up yet. Patience, please, while I investigate Demon's mail servers. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Feb 12 09:02:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32186 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Feb 1999 13:52:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 13:52:07 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA00487 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:51:55 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 13:51:55 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27213; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:51:55 GMT Message-Id: <199902121351.NAA27213@uksn82> Date: 12 Feb 99 13:48:40 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-37-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 10-Feb-99 00:25 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 40 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Proposals for Week 40 included: > Proposal 592 - The Big Issue [Multiple] Interesting - I love the idea of the Big Issue being in the Game. I have some misgivings, though - > 2. The Big Issue [Action] > [Raising Big Issue] 1.7.x -1 Gr First of all, this seems awfully cheap. Especially when... > While a Big Issue Sale is in effect, a Player's Turn is illegal if, > at the end of it, e is not carrying a Big Issue and e has not > performed the Action of "[LV-3]" this Turn. I suppose you can always Pass, but what happens if you have an LV of less than 3? [LV-3] would itself be Illegal. > 3. Fahrenheit 451 [Amendment] > > To the end of Rule 1.9.2 (Escalator Fires), add:- > > If any Players are situated at that Station, any Papery Possessions > carried by them are destroyed. Well that makes perfect sense, but what's it doing here? > Proposal 593 - Proposal - "Line Velocity", starring Keanu Reeves [Action] Highly entertaining. The possibilities for mayhem that are possible in combination with the Big Issue sale are particularly inviting. > Proposal 594 - Not By a Long Chalk [Multiple] > > { The Chalk Farm rules seem a little unexciting and pointless at the > moment; here's a bit of suggested rewording and replacement. } Er... I rather disagree, I think they're alright as they are. Granted that CF'84 doesn't vary the Vanilla ruleset that much, but then I don't think there needs to be much variation to radically alter the flavour of the game. In actual fact, my feeling is that this alternate version of CF'84 is largely orthogonal to the existing CF'84 Special Ruleset and would be better implemented as a separate set of Special Rules. > 2. Chalk Farm Denial [Enactment] > > If any Piece is situated at Chalk Farm, the action of "[Opening MC]" > may not be performed. Shades of Gordon Brown? > 4. House Keys [Enactment] > > When a Player performs an Action of "[Home: ]", e may claim > a Zone Pass for any single Zone which contains that Station. Much better wording, in fact the only part of this Proposal I'm really happy with. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Feb 12 18:13:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20919 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Feb 1999 20:27:23 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 20:27:23 -0000 Received: from [208.169.219.117] (cvl219117.columbus.rr.com [208.169.219.117]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA04193 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:31:15 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:29:20 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 40 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> Proposal 593 - Proposal - "Line Velocity", starring Keanu Reeves [Action] > >Highly entertaining. The possibilities for mayhem that are possible in >combination with the Big Issue sale are particularly inviting. Amusing, but way too powerful, imo. Only 2 red for something that costs 3 silver to get rid of, or it destroys all your tokens and possessions? Plus, it doesn't specify what kind of action it is. You could play it as a pre-move action against someone who already has a LV of 5, then shunt them. On their turn, they can't build up more speed than 3. Kaboom! For only 2 red tokens... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sat Feb 13 15:34:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28676 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Feb 1999 22:43:23 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 1999 22:43:23 -0000 Received: from [208.169.219.117] (cvl219117.columbus.rr.com [208.169.219.117]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA19421 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:47:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:45:30 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 40 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-From_: kevan@s... Sat Feb 13 06:31:43 1999 >From: kevan@s... >To: riffraff@n... >Subject: RE: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 40 Proposals >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:34:14 -0600 > > >>Amusing, but way too powerful, imo. Only 2 red for >something that costs 3 >>silver to get rid of, or it destroys all your tokens and >possessions? > >You have to be next to the Player to attach it, though, >which does (as with the other Clamps and things) leave >you very open to retaliation. Unless I've missed things, >the playing of Clamps seems very rare. > >Three Silver might be a bit too much, although if you're >zipping round the map at high speeds, you should be able >to pick up Silvers quite easily. > >>Plus, it doesn't specify what kind of action it is. You >could play it as a >>pre-move action against someone who already has a LV of 5, >then shunt them. >>On their turn, they can't build up more speed than 3. >Kaboom! For only 2 >>red tokens... > >Careless - I meant it to be Post-Move (the adjacency >preventing it being combined with a Shunt). Tsk. > >I'm not sure how powerful the above tactic is, mind; to >Shunt after attaching a Bomb, you're likely to need (fiddly >Zone 1 round-the-houses routes aside) an LV of 1, which >puts the victim at an adjacent Station, ready to fight >back. And Nantucketting Possessions will save them from >destruction, just as Hoarding Tokens would. > >I think I'd have to see how it panned out, really. Maybe >making it a Post-Move Action is all that's required, >although possibly the removal cost could be altered. And >maybe something about it affecting all Players at a >Station when it explodes, to make the Bomb itself a bit >of an offensive weapon. (Perhaps worth bringing in line >with Suspect Packages, for a generic "explosion" effect. >Hmm.) > >My thumbs are up, incidentally, to all other Proposals >this Week. > >Kevan > > >_____________________________________________ >Get your free personalized email address at >http://www.MyOwnEmail.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@s... Sun Feb 14 10:11:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18771 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Feb 1999 18:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mojo.myownemail.com) (208.223.204.107) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 14 Feb 1999 18:11:07 -0000 Received: from 208.223.204.107 [208.223.204.107] by mojo.myownemail.com (SMTPD32-4.07) id A25047C00CE; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:13:36 CST5EDT From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:13:36 -0600 X-Mailer: My Own Email v3.0 Subject: MN: Fifteen minutes Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was somewhat taken aback to find myself quoted in the Sunday papers this morning... -- Many fans of Radio 4's "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue" may have assumed that the point of the celebrated game Mornington Crescent was that the players only pretend there are rules. The 20,000-odd words of the Mornington Nomic rule set prove otherwise; as does the even longer Encyclopaedia Morningtonia, published by a nucleus of "MC" devotees in York. The Nomic principle, already used to explain the weird world of LambdaMOO, can now elucidate one of our home-grown mysteries. In these fat files, newbies can find explanations of the finer points of play, such as the Finsbury Option, the Septimus Divergence (moving to Seven Sisters), line velocities, and "foetal" stations (still under construction). Foetal stations have coefficients of 1.4 times those of "ghost" stations, defunct destinations such as British Museum and Aldwych. You can watch a game in progress too, although as in LambdaMOO, it soon disappears beneath a sea of banter straight from a post- graduate student party. Player Gil Williamson also offers an automated game that can be played by clicking on a section of Tube map. But nowhere will you find the answer to the game's fundamental paradox, set out in the Mornington Nomic FAQ: "Mornington Nomic starts with but two essential playing rules: 'The Winner is the first Player to Move to Mornington Crescent' and 'No Player may Move to Mornington Crescent'." -- Technofile, The Independent, 14/2/99 _____________________________________________ Get your free personalized email address at http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Feb 15 00:34:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10280 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Feb 1999 08:34:15 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 1999 08:34:15 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA05178 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:34:02 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 15 Feb 1999 08:34:02 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA28973; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:34:02 GMT Message-Id: <199902150834.IAA28973@uksn82> Date: 15 Feb 99 08:30:16 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Oops Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies - GSDs delayed due to Speaker idiocy. Resend tonight. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle General: http://ukp6612.uk.oracle.com/dunx/index.html Volleyball: http://ukp6612.uk.oracle.com/volleyball/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 16 15:39:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24062 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Feb 1999 23:39:38 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 16 Feb 1999 23:39:38 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Cu5L-0002nH-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:39:23 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:32:51 GMT Message-ID: <36caffbc.176914@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-One -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 598 - Extending Attacks [Enactment] =46or simplicity, the rest of this Rule refers to the Player or Object affected by the Action as the Target and the Player performing the Action= as the Actor. Any Action which requires the Actor to be adjacent to a Target may be Extended. This is done by adding the text '(Extend: )' into the text = of the Action. This addition of text does not change the validity of the Action - thus, a '[Spooning (Extend: 1)]' Action is as valid as = the equivalent '[Spooning ]' Action. '' is the cost in Red tokens expended in the Extension. =46or each Red token expended in the Extension, the Target can be up to = three Stations distant from the Actor. The Target must be on the same line as = the Actor, and the Line Segment between the Target and the Actor must not include any change in Line Direction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 599 - The more Targets the merrier! [Enactment] =46or simplicity, the rest of this Rule refers to the Player or Object affected by the Action as the Target and the Player performing the Action= as the Actor. Any Action which requires the Actor to be at the same Station as a Target may be Proxied. This is done by adding the text '(Proxied)' into the = text of the Action. This addition of text does not change the validity of the Action - thus, a '[Spooning (Extend: 1)]' Action is as valid as = the equivalent '[Spooning ]' Action. Proxying an Action costs one Green Token and one Blue Token. An Action Proxied in this way may be also Extended in the appropriate manner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 600 - Flat Terrain [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.6.2, relating to the velocity gains and losses when encountering High and Hill stations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 601 - Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb [Multiple] 1. Clean Slate [Repeal, Amendments] Repeal any Rule entitled "Line Velocity, Starring Keanu Reeves", and remove related Actions from the Action tables. 2. The Velocity Bomb [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Velocity-Bombing ] 1.7.x -3 Re [Removing Velocity Bomb] 1.7.x -2 Si ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Velocity-Bombing ]" to attach a Velocity Bomb to the targetted Player, who must be at a Station adjacent to the Actioning Player. Upon performing this Action, the targetted Player gains a "Velocity Bomb (Dormant)" - an Indestructable Possession. If the LV of a Player carrying a Velocity Bomb (Dormant) is ever more than four, it is immediately replaced with a Velocity Bomb (Primed) = (also an Indestructable Possession). At the end of a Player's Turn, if that Player is carrying a Velocity Bomb (Primed) and has an LV below five, the Bomb explodes as if it = were a Suspect Package which had just been detonated. A Player may perform the Action of "[Removing Velocity Bomb]" to destroy a single Velocity Bomb in eir Possession, provided that their Piece is situated at a British Rail Station. Upon performing this Action, a Player's LV is reduced to zero. 3. Hello, Bomb? [Amendment] Reword the second and third paragraphs of Rule 1.7.30 (Suspect Package Detonation) to:- When this Action is played, the Package detonates. Upon a Suspect Package's detonation, the Station at which it rests becomes Heavily Damaged, the Package is removed from play, and all Stations less than three stops away are Blasted.=20 When a Station is Blasted, any Token Stack at that Station is = destroyed, and any Players at that Station lose all of their Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as their next Turn. If a Suspect Package rests at a Blasted Station, it detonates. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 602 - The Green Clamp [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Greening ] 1.7.x -2 Gr [Degreening] 1.7.x -2 Gr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Greening ]", where is a Player with a Piece adjacent to the Actioning Player's Piece position. A Greened Player gains a "Green Clamp" Possession. Green Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. At the end of any Turn of a Player carrying a Green Clamp, if that Player has sufficient Tokens to perform a "[Recycling]" Action, but has not performed such an Action this Turn, eir Turn is Illegal.=20 A Player may destroy a single Green Clamp which they are carrying, by performing the Action of "[Degreening]" whilst at any Green Station. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 603 - Blackballing [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.1.6 (Club Structure). { Comments : Deeply under-used, and unlikely ever to be very significant in a forum of few players. I think the semi-chosen pairings of Team Games are enough of a substitute, really. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 604 - Chlorofiller [Rewrite] Rewrite Rule 1.8.2 (Parks and Greens Cascade):- A Player may perform the Action of "[Parks and Greens Cascade]" to put such a Cascade into effect, provided that eir Piece is situated at a Park or Green Station.=20 While a Parks and Greens Cascade is in effect, a Move to a Station which is neither a Park, Plant nor Green Station is Invalid, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Cascade Sidestep]" Action during that Turn.=20 A Player may perform the Action of "[Terminating Cascade]" to end a Parks and Greens Cascade, provided that eir piece is situated at a Plant Station.=20 { Just bringing one of our oldest Rules in line with current wording. }=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 605 - Token Edit [Rewrite] Rewrite Rule 1.4.10 (This Token has a Cash Value of 0.0001p):-=20 Any Player may perform the Action of "[Bonanza]", provided that its cost is paid with ten Plastic Tokens of the same colour. Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains one Gold Token.=20 "[Bonanza]" is considered a Token Exchange Action.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 606 - Resigning Issue [Multiple] { Comment: Here I was, all set to issue a Resignation Proposal, and I realise it's no longer a legal Proposal type. Curses. Best fix it then. } [Amendment: Resign On the Dotted Line] Amend Rule 0.4.1 () by add the following Proposal type to the list: "* Resignation - To force another Player to Resign." [Amendment: Last Bastion of Otherness] Amend Rule 1.1.3 (Resignation) by making the first paragraph read thus: "Any Player may Resign from a Game of Mornington Crescent by posting a message to the Discussion Lounge informing the other Players of eir = wish. Any Player may submit a Proposal of Type Resignation, Proposing that a = Player be Forced to Resign. [End of Resigning Issue] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 16 15:39:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23954 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Feb 1999 23:39:34 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 16 Feb 1999 23:39:34 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Cu5J-0002nH-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:39:22 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:32:49 GMT Message-ID: <36c9ff71.101943@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 41 - Voting Results for Week 40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 592 The Big Issue 2 1 2 3 Fails=20 593 "Line Velocity", starring ... 3 1 1 3 Passes [a] 594 Not By a Long Chalk 1 1 3 3 Fails=20 595 Stop, Lurk and Listen 3 1 1 3 Passes 596 A Small Matter of Definitions 4 1 - 3 Passes 597 Six Hours Can Make A Lot ... 4 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 592 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - - PAS - AGA FOR 593 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - - PAS - FOR AGA 594 (Kevan) - AGA AGA - - PAS - AGA FOR 595 (Dunx) - PAS AGA - - FOR - FOR FOR 596 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - - FOR - FOR FOR 597 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - - FOR - FOR FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 22 8 0 0 33 16 17 21 Halved: 11 4 16 9 10 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +11 +0 +6 +0 +0 AGA Votes: I -1 -0 I I -6 I -0 -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +3 n n +3 n +3 +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a a +0 a -0 -0 c c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t t +0 t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i i +0 i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: v +5 +0 v v +0 v +5 +0 e e e e Repeal: +2 +0 +0 +0 +0 Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +7 +0 +0 = [b] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +23 +3 +0 +10 +8 +3 Final Kudos: 11 33 7 0 0 26 16 17 13 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Julie Kevan miKi Paul Riff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [a] Actions treated as Neutral since not defined. [b] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (Not By A Long Chalk) CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan ("Line Velocity") Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Feb 16 23:01:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11550 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Feb 1999 07:01:37 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 1999 07:01:37 -0000 Received: from [208.169.219.117] (cvl219117.columbus.rr.com [208.169.219.117]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA27132 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:05:40 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:03:43 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 598 - Extending Attacks [Enactment] > >For simplicity, the rest of this Rule refers to the Player or Object >affected by the Action as the Target and the Player performing the Action as >the Actor. > >Any Action which requires the Actor to be adjacent to a Target may be >Extended. This is done by adding the text '(Extend: )' into the text of >the Action. This addition of text does not change the validity of the >Action - thus, a '[Spooning (Extend: 1)]' Action is as valid as the >equivalent '[Spooning ]' Action. '' is the cost in Red tokens >expended in the Extension. > >For each Red token expended in the Extension, the Target can be up to three >Stations distant from the Actor. The Target must be on the same line as the >Actor, and the Line Segment between the Target and the Actor must not >include any change in Line Direction. > Wow... that's very useful and interesting, but potentially very unbalancing... A lot of actions that would otherwise be too powerful are only kept in check by the fact that you have to be adjacent. (The new Velocity Bomb, f'r'instance) I'd much rather it be 1 Red for _every_ station distant (rather than each 3), and if it'd been my proposal, I'd probably have made it a Blue or even Silver. In fact, Blue would seem to be more appropriate, since it's not actually targetting other players, it's just affecting your move. I like it a lot, but it's... scary. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Proposal 599 - The more Targets the merrier! [Enactment] > >For simplicity, the rest of this Rule refers to the Player or Object >affected by the Action as the Target and the Player performing the Action as >the Actor. > >Any Action which requires the Actor to be at the same Station as a Target >may be Proxied. This is done by adding the text '(Proxied)' into the text >of the Action. This addition of text does not change the validity of the >Action - thus, a '[Spooning (Extend: 1)]' Action is as valid as the >equivalent '[Spooning ]' Action. > >Proxying an Action costs one Green Token and one Blue Token. An Action >Proxied in this way may be also Extended in the appropriate manner. This confuses me. The example doesn't use '(Proxied)', and there's no real explanation of what Proxying actually _does_... I'm guessing that you would use (Proxied) to allow you do perform an action from another station, and then (Extend: 1) to perform the action from an adjacent station? Presumably, Proxy only _allows_ you to (Extend) an applicable action, the same way [Wild] allows you to move to a Wild station - you still have to pay for the allowed action. Suppose this was combined into the (Extend) proposal, simply rewording it to "Any action which requires the Actor to be adjacent to or at the same Station as..." and making the cost 1 Blue and 1 Green for each extra Station of distance... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Feb 17 01:17:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21632 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Feb 1999 09:17:38 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 1999 09:17:38 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA15502 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:17:24 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 17 Feb 1999 09:17:24 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA15431; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:17:24 GMT Message-Id: <199902170917.JAA15431@uksn82> Date: 17 Feb 99 09:14:49 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-48-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 16-Feb-99 23:32 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Week 41 Proposals included: > Proposal 598 - Extending Attacks [Enactment] Cunning, very cunning indeed. I can see what RiffRaff means about this one though: eir points both about it being a little on the cheap side, and also that it's perhaps using the wrong= token type, are valid. However, I'd also point out the restrictions that the= Actor and Target must be on the same Line and have no Line Direction changes= between them. Things I would probably have done differently if I'd suffered from this stroke of genius: - specifying that Extension is Blockable - making the cost increase more quickly as the Actor becomes more remote= (eg first three Stations cost 1 Token, second triplet 2 Tokens, and so on) - using a different Token to pay for it > Proposal 599 - The more Targets the merrier! [Enactment] I don't think this is a complete Proposal. As RiffRaff has already pointed out, the behaviour of a Proxy is never actually described. There's also a bit of Cut and Paste Inheritance in the second paragraph. > Proposal 600 - Flat Terrain [Repeal] Good idea. > Proposal 601 - Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb [Multiple] Some useful bits of rewording, but overall this rework doesn't actually fix some of the problems. > [Velocity-Bombing ] 1.7.x -3 Re This still seems cheap, especially in a Ruttsborough game. > A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Velocity-Bombing Good. As it happens, the adjacency criterion always prevented this Action from being performed during a Move though. > 3. Hello, Bomb? [Amendment] Better wording of the Suspect Package rules, but shouldn't there be something about Velocity Bombs going off as well? In the reworded Velocity Bomb rule, there is discussion of a Velocity Bomb detonating 'as if it were a Suspect Package' but there is no mention of behaviour if the carrying Player is at a Blasted Station. > Proposal 602 - The Green Clamp [Action] Cool. > Proposal 603 - Blackballing [Repeal] About time. > Proposal 604 - Chlorofiller [Rewrite] Better wording, but interesting to note that it's longer. The sense seems to be preserved though. > Proposal 605 - Token Edit [Rewrite] Good. I'm also quite surprised no one has put forward a Freeze yet... still, I suppose dave is Inactive right now. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@s... Wed Feb 17 04:32:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21277 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Feb 1999 12:31:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mojo.myownemail.com) (208.223.204.107) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 1999 12:31:56 -0000 Received: from 208.223.204.107 [208.223.204.107] by mojo.myownemail.com (SMTPD32-4.07) id A7528A5D00CE; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:34:26 CST5EDT From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:34:26 -0600 X-Mailer: My Own Email v3.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 598 - Extending Attacks [Enactment] > >For simplicity, the rest of this Rule refers to the Player or Object >affected by the Action as the Target and the Player performing the Action as >the Actor. "Actioning Player" has always served reasonably well enough, but a definition of "Target" might be helpful - perhaps a proper glossary? This Proposal just seems to make a few minor rules very powerful, though, really - the only Rules that require adjacency are the various Clamps, and the new Velocity Bomb ("adjacent Objects" are completely unreferenced). Three Stations per red is really quite insane, all things considered, particularly under Ruttsborough rules, and it just gives us a rather horrible Extra Thing To Keep Track Of. Tangentially, the whole "adjacent Station" thing seems a bit too strange to me - surely you should share a location to Clamp someone? The only real problem, as far as I can see, is that you could combine it with a Shunt, to possibly disasterous effect, but I think it'd be better to reword with that in mind, rather than persist with the adjacency. (I wonder how useful a "Shunt Actions must be performed immediately after a Player's Move" rule might be? As well as bringing it closer to "part of the Move", it'd tidy up caveats like that of Shadowing, for one...) >Proposal 599 - The more Targets the merrier! [Enactment] As commented, this isn't worded properly enough to mean anything. If If it means "pay a Green and a Blue to target anyone on the Map" then it's absurd, if it means "pay a Green and a Blue to draw your target from a third Player" then it's interesting, but ruinous for Team Games and still, I suspect, too much to keep track of. >Proposal 600 - Flat Terrain [Repeal] > >Repeal Rule 1.6.2, relating to the velocity gains and losses when >encountering High and Hill stations. It's certainly true that this Rule is hard to keep in mind all the time, and that it makes the GSD a little harder to follow, but I think it's a nice element. Whichever way the Vote goes on this, I think I might propose a replacement "[Freewheeling]" Action, which gives you 1 LV, but can only be played at Highs and Hills... >Proposal 601 - Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb [Multiple] One of mine. I think I got everything (including ambiguity over whether *Primed* Bombs were Indestructible or not). >Proposal 606 - Resigning Issue [Multiple] > >{ Comment: Here I was, all set to issue a Resignation Proposal, and I > realise it's no longer a legal Proposal type. Curses. Best fix it > then. >} A good point, yes; well spotted, whoever you are. For what it's worth, Julie's lost Internet access and is unlikely to be regaining it (which is, tangentially, why my Innotts Web page has vanished - a replacement should be up at http://members.xoom.com/asabove, before too long). Kevan _____________________________________________ Get your free personalized email address at http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Feb 18 00:20:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7812 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Feb 1999 08:20:48 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 08:20:48 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA16162 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:20:35 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 08:20:35 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA29137; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:20:35 GMT Message-Id: <199902180820.IAA29137@uksn82> Date: 18 Feb 99 08:19:06 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Jonathan Returns Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let it be known that a former Player of this Game, one Jonathan Ellis (no relation), has communicated eir wish to rejoin under eir previous monicker of Jonathan. Consider it done, sir. You'll be added to the list of Players at the next Week End (or perhaps before, but I shan't make any promises). Welcome back. Always a fine thing to see Players return. Play on. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@s... Thu Feb 18 00:40:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13773 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Feb 1999 08:40:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mojo.myownemail.com) (208.223.204.107) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 08:40:29 -0000 Received: from 208.223.204.107 [208.223.204.107] by mojo.myownemail.com (SMTPD32-4.07) id A29E52D00A0; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:43:10 CST5EDT From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:43:10 -0600 X-Mailer: My Own Email v3.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said:- >Proposal 598 - Extending Attacks [Enactment] > [...] >However, I'd also point out the restrictions that the >Actor and Target must be on the same Line and have no Line Direction changes >between them. Hmm. True enough; I'd rather overlooked that aspect, I admit. It still makes Zone 1 play risky, though, and I think it's probably still too cheap (particularly since most Clamps are deliberately inexpensive because of their need for proximity). >> Proposal 601 - Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb [Multiple] >Some useful bits of rewording, but overall this rework doesn't actually fix >some of the problems. > >> [Velocity-Bombing ] 1.7.x -3 Re >This still seems cheap, especially in a Ruttsborough game. Well, it's all in the spirit of things. And since when did anyone in a Ruttsborough Game have an LV of less than five? (With a top LV of fifteen, and Shunts only nudging it down a little, Velocity Bombs aren't going to be hugely useful.) >As it happens, the adjacency criterion always prevented this Action from >being performed during a Move though. Surely the ruleset these days prevents *any* Actions being performed during a Move? >> 3. Hello, Bomb? [Amendment] > >Better wording of the Suspect Package rules, but shouldn't there be >something about Velocity Bombs going off as well? Hmm. I wanted to keep away from too much cross-referencing, really. Maybe this is something worth adding, though. >[...] there is no mention of behaviour if the carrying Player is at a >Blasted Station. Damn those Blasted Stations. >> Proposal 604 - Chlorofiller [Rewrite] >Better wording, but interesting to note that it's longer. Oh? It's ten words less, as far as I can make out. >I'm also quite surprised no one has put forward a Freeze yet... still, I >suppose dave is Inactive right now. I'm happy to concentrate on the Nomic side of things, really, since I haven't really got the time and resources to keep an eye on more than one Game (and I'd be too far behind if I joined most of the others anyway). Did you ever respond to that Game 15 Buzz, incidentally, Dunx? Kevan _____________________________________________ Get your free personalized email address at http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Feb 18 04:08:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17710 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Feb 1999 12:07:53 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 12:07:53 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA18857 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:07:39 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 12:07:39 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA25001; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:07:38 GMT Message-Id: <199902181207.MAA25001@uksn82> Date: 18 Feb 99 12:04:09 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States 18/2/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given Kevan's reminder to me about the Game 15 buzz that I hadn't responded to, it seems an apposite moment to issue a state of play list. As of 12:10 GMT 19/2/99 the game states were as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long Dunx 12-February-1999 07:04 [1] 12 MN-C Vanilla PaulWay 15-February-1999 18:51 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 15-February-1999 18:51 [2] 14 MN-B CF 84 PaulWay 16-February-1999 07:28 15 MN-R Rutts Kevan 18-February-1999 12:03 [3] [1] oops - hadn't noticed that only me and Paul were playing in this one. [2] not a cut and paste error - these GSDs really were both submitted at the= same time [3] well, I just reposted with another trivial fix. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Graeme Jefferis Thu Feb 18 07:56:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 811 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Feb 1999 15:56:21 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 15:56:21 -0000 Received: from vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26717 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:04:44 GMT Received: from elgar.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@e... [146.227.102.109]) by vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7/H1.6) with ESMTP id PAA04704 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:56:04 GMT From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by elgar.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id PAA09728 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:56:02 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:56:02 GMT Message-Id: <199902181556.PAA09728@e...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: AXyXG26G5fT41Li9w4TrLw== Subject: MN: Re: Game States 18/2/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 15-February-1999 18:51 [2] I'm having yet more trouble with e-Groups. I've posted two GSDs for this game, and both times received this message: [PASTE] From: "eGroups.com Manager" Subject: Posting sent to the moderator for approval Your posting (Subject: "MN-G: Game 13 Game State Document") has been sent to the moderator ("l-nomic-g-owner@egroups.com") for approval. When the moderator approves the posting, it will be automatically distributed to the e-group. [/PASTE] I'm interested to see whether this will work itself... -Grimace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Feb 18 08:08:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8155 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Feb 1999 16:08:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 16:08:23 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA20175 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:08:09 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 16:08:09 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA13387; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:08:08 GMT Message-Id: <199902181608.QAA13387@uksn82> Date: 18 Feb 99 16:06:20 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-56-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 18-Feb-99 15:56 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Game States 18/2/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 15-February-1999 18:51 [2] >I'm having yet more trouble with e-Groups. I've posted two >GSDs for this game, and both times received this message: >[PASTE] >From: "eGroups.com Manager" >Subject: Posting sent to the moderator for approval It probably means that you've subscribed to the list with a different name than you're sending under. You should probably resubscribe using your new address and then repost. Unfortunately, I don't moderate this group so I can't approve your first postings. Kevan? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Feb 18 15:46:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6392 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Feb 1999 23:46:23 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 1999 23:46:23 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA25440; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:46:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma025327; Fri, 19 Feb 99 09:45:41 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1YG4F2N5>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:45:40 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EB2@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:45:31 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: formatting Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:34 PM, kevan@s... [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > "Actioning Player" has always served reasonably well > enough, but a > definition of "Target" might be helpful - perhaps a proper > glossary? I really hate it when email systems do that. Not that I'm blaming you, Kev - email systems do the oddest things at times (just ask any ccMail or Lotus Notes user :-). The first line is always less than 60 characters in length - if you're typing in a form text box try not hitting Enter when you come to the end of a line, and instead use it on the end of a paragraph. Web-based senders are strange like that sometimes. HTH, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Feb 18 17:21:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22137 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Feb 1999 01:21:42 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 1999 01:21:42 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA03256; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:21:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003091; Fri, 19 Feb 99 11:20:59 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1YG4FJZN>; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:20:58 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EB5@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:20:52 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, February 18, 1999 6:43 PM, kevan@s... [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > Dunx said:- > >Proposal 598 - Extending Attacks [Enactment] > > [...] > >However, I'd also point out the restrictions that the > >Actor and Target must be on the same Line and have no Line > > Direction changes between them. > > Hmm. True enough; I'd rather overlooked that aspect, I admit. It still makes Zone 1 play risky, though, and I think it's probably still too cheap (particularly since most Clamps are deliberately inexpensive because of their need for proximity). I might as well come clean - the Extension and Proxying proposals were both mine. I've submitted to Dunx updates to the Extension proposal for next week (I personally thought the cost was realistic, but then I may have been somewhat underfunded in past games :-) - the cost is brought into line with the suggestions here and a few other bits and pieces are clarified. The Proxying proposal I've substantially rewritten and am hoping to have replaced this week if possible. If not, please just pass on it (unless you consider me particularly worthy of your opprobium for that blunder). > >> Proposal 601 - Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb [Multiple] > >Some useful bits of rewording, but overall this rework > > doesn't actually fix some of the problems. I agree - I'd vote more positively for this if it was two separate proposals, rather than trying to do a substantial rework of Suspect Packages as well. > >This still seems cheap, especially in a Ruttsborough game. All destructive actions are cheap in Ruttsborough. That's what makes it Ruttsborough! > Surely the ruleset these days prevents *any* Actions being > performed during a Move? Hmmm. Allowing you to do something to any station you pass through is exactly the same as letting you perform that action during your move, isn't it? As the current wording of the rules specifically allows you to play an Action that you cannot pay for until later (and, IMHO, this is a good thing and in the spirit of MC), they're effectively equivalent. The [Rebounding] Action is another good example of this. When exactly is the [Rebounding] action played? Post-Move! And yet the move itself implies that it has happened _during_ your Move. So I would say it is definitely possible to write Actions that are done mid-Move in the current setup. And let's face it, it's illogical to play a Shunt mid-way through your move. If someone wanted to do this, then I'd recommend they write a [Bouncing off ] action to be played on any player, with a similar effect to a mid-move 'shunt'. > >Better wording of the Suspect Package rules, but shouldn't > > there be something about Velocity Bombs going off as well? Yes, I thought it was rather incomplete, myself. > Damn those Blasted Stations. Don't tell me you didn't intend to say that at some point in time when you drafted that proposal... ;-) > >I'm also quite surprised no one has put forward a Freeze > > yet... still, I suppose dave is Inactive right now. I'd vote against it - I've suddenly found a desire to write proposals, and I think that having weeks with no Proposals to vote on is OK. Springs and things, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Fri Feb 19 06:49:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11633 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Feb 1999 14:48:57 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 1999 14:48:57 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10DrEJ-0003Ee-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:48:35 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:42:01 GMT Message-ID: <36ce7218.764733@p...> References: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EB5@PIBCRMEXH001> In-Reply-To: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EB5@PIBCRMEXH001> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >The Proxying proposal I've substantially rewritten and am hoping to have >replaced this week if possible. If not, please just pass on it (unless = you >consider me particularly worthy of your opprobium for that blunder). Sadly, I don't think I can do that since it's just too late in the Week -= the Rules require four days to elapse between distribution and Wee-End (well,= the precise wording is that a Week shall be no fewer than four days in = length).=20 Also, there is no provision for modifying Proposals once they've been distributed. There have been a few cases where changes have been made, = but they've more minor. I would have thought that a Player should be allowed to withdraw a = Proposal, and I'm happy to consider a Point of Order from you to that effect if you = wish. >> Surely the ruleset these days prevents *any* Actions being=20 >> performed during a Move? > >Hmmm. Allowing you to do something to any station you pass through is >exactly the same as letting you perform that action during your move, = isn't >it? As the current wording of the rules specifically allows you to play= an >Action that you cannot pay for until later (and, IMHO, this is a good = thing >and in the spirit of MC), they're effectively equivalent. Absolutely the opposite, surely? I'm fairly sure there is a line in the = ruleset stating that the Player must own the Tokens to pay for a particular = Action at the point at which the Action is played. However, I confess I am at a los to find such a statement in the ruleset = as it stands. If it's been removed, I withdraw the remark (and shall plot to = restore it!) I would also agree that there is a convention at work of playing against borrowed Tokens, where line changes are paid for by passing through the requisite number of interchanges. >> >I'm also quite surprised no one has put forward a Freeze=20 >> > yet... still, I suppose dave is Inactive right now. > >I'd vote against it - I've suddenly found a desire to write proposals, = and I >think that having weeks with no Proposals to vote on is OK. I think I probably would too. My only reason for considering it is that = if we were to have a tournament (as I think we should soon) it would be better = if the ruleset were static throughout. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@z... Sat Feb 20 09:28:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15927 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Feb 1999 17:28:04 -0000 Received: from m9.findmail.com (HELO findmail.com) (209.185.96.144) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 1999 17:28:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 16145 invoked by uid 505); 20 Feb 1999 17:27:51 -0000 In-Reply-To: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EB2@PIBCRMEXH001> From: kevan@z... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:27:51 -0000 Subject: MN: Re: formatting Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I really hate it when email systems do that. Not that I'm blaming you, Kev > - email systems do the oddest things at times. > > The first line is always less than 60 characters in length - if you're > typing in a form text box try not hitting Enter when you come to the end of > a line, and instead use it on the end of a paragraph. Web-based senders are > strange like that sometimes. I was replying offline and cutting and pasting, I think. But doubtless all the fault of my Web-based account, I'm sure. MyOwnEmail have been a little too useless lately, and I've quietly claimed one of the spare addresses of Chrissy's new Freeserve account, which should be preferable. Pity to lose "@somethingorother.com", really, since it was quite nice, but still. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 23 15:26:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Precedence: list X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20696 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Feb 1999 23:26:11 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.39) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 23:26:11 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10FRD8-000Jpo-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:25:54 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:19:17 GMT Message-ID: <36d53345.7865370@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 42 - Votes on Week 41 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 598 Extending Attacks 2 1 3 3 Fails 599 The more targets the merrier! -- withdrawn -- [a] 600 Flat Terrain 4 1 1 3 Passes 601 Stop Worrying ... 3 1 2 3 Passes 602 The Green Clamp 5 1 - 3 Passes 603 Blackballing 5 1 - 3 Passes 604 Chlorofiller 5 1 - 3 Passes 605 Token Edit 5 1 - 3 Passes 606 Resigning Issue 5 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Julie Kevan miKi Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 598 (PaulWay) - FOR FOR - AGA - AGA - PAS = AGA 600 (PaulWay) - FOR FOR - AGA - FOR - PAS = =46OR 601 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR - PAS - AGA = =46OR 602 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 603 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 604 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 605 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 606 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR - FOR - FOR = =46OR -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Julie Kevan miKi Paul = Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 33 7 0 0 26 16 17 = 13 Halved: 16 3 13 8 = 6 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +5 +0 +0 +20 +6 = +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 I -0 I -1 I -4 = -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +3 n +3 n +3 n +3 = +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 a +0 a -0 = -0 c c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 t +0 t +0 = +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 i +0 i -0 = -0 Finger/Pulse: v +0 +0 v +0 v +5 v +0 = +5 e e e e Repeal: +0 +0 +0 +4 +2 = +0 Rewrite: +0 +0 +0 +9 +0 = +0 Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +0 +3 +4 = +0 [b] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +11 +3 +0 +3 +43 +11 = +8 Final Kudos: 11 27 6 0 3 0 56 16 19 = 14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Julie Kevan miKi Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] by Point of Order from the author. [b] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (Chlorofiller) CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - PaulWay (Extending Attacks) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) Tue Feb 23 15:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20713 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Feb 1999 23:26:12 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (HELO post.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.39) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 23:26:12 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10FRCz-000Jpo-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:25:45 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:19:09 GMT Message-ID: <36d63378.7916397@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 42 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Two -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 607 - Terminal Velocity [Amendment] The entire text of Rule 2.2.1 to be removed and replaced with: "If, at the start of eir Turn before any other Player Actions a Player = has an LV of 10 or more, and e does not (and is not forced to by any other = Rule) reduce it below 10 before eir Move, then all Terminus Stations on the = Line e is on are considered Valid Moves provided that reaching them would not involve a change of Line Direction (this option is in addition to the standard Moves available through eir natural LV-dependent Piece Movement = and any Special Moves available.) If e chooses to excercise this option and = is more than [n] stations from that Terminus, where [n] is eir LV after adjustment, eir LV is immediately set to 0 after eir Move." The Rule itself is also te be renamed to "Terminal Velocity". [Comments: somebody has recently commented that the Chalk Farm "terminus wild" rule is too strong, so I'm basically putting in a = condition that LV has to be an unadjusted 10 before this option can be excercised, = and removing the bit about being able to move to any of the termini of the = lines if one is resting at an interchange. The bit about not reducing LV before the move refers mostly to having eaten something the previous move. Of course, if the station could be reached by normal play (i.e. by a move legal in the vanilla ruleset), then the LV reduction does not = apply.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 608 - Chateau d'Eau [Comments: This is the first MC game on a non-London tube network... the Paris Metro. It is set up under the "Turin '57" rule 2.7.1.] Mornington Crescent may be played on the Paris Metro. *A map of the Paris metro can be found at: http://www.paris.org/metro/gifs/metro.map.jpg *Goal: Chateau d'Eau *Bank: Hotel De Ville *Loop: Miromesnil *Circle Line Equivalent: formed by two lines, Lines 2 and 6 between Nation and Charles-De-Gaulle Etoile (not counting the part of Line 6 west of CdG-E.) *River: The Seine *The following Rule is to be added: "A player may cross the River = when the Bridges are Up by playing a [Swimming] Pre-Move Action. This acts in every way like the [Walking] action, and the Token costs and time taken = are the same, with the addition that all Papery or Edible Possessions held by that Player must be discarded." {Comments: This is to prevent people becoming permanently trapped at "Cite", which is the only station on an island. If they are desperate = enough to move immedately, they'll swim... vital if, say, a Parcel or Flag is = being carried.} *Line Codes: The number of the Line (Line 1's line code is 1, for instance.) *Finsbury Option rules applied to this allow all RER stations on the Metro map to be included in the playing board, and Players may move along the RER lines with Line Codes of A, B, C and D: the last station on an = RER line before it goes off the map is considered a Terminus for the purpose = of gaining Terminus Hats, choosing Home Stations and moving or being Shunted along that line. *Overground Station substitutes: Any station with a connection to = the RER suburban lines (which are drawn substantially thicker on the map, and point to destinations off the map.) *Station classifications are as on the London Underground, but translated into French ("Nord", "Sud", "Est", "Ouest" =3D North, South, = East, West =3D Compass Stations: "Parc" and "Vert" =3D Parks and Greens (and = "Jardin" makes up Gardens to complete Verdant stations): "Maison", "Ville" or = "Cite" are Populated: "Rue" or "Boulevard" (Bd.) =3D A to Z: all with "Saint" = (St), "Croix" or "Eglise" are Holy. Terminus, Interchange and Overground connections are all obvious on the map. *Due to the fact that there are far fewer Park or Green stations on = the Paris Metro, any and all of the standard rules about Parks and Greens Cascades do not apply. An alternative of a Streets and Roads Cascade = ("Rue" and "Boulevard") replaces these rules and applies instead, being = terminated by a move to a "Place" station. *Zone and Current/Charge regulations do not apply, and all players = shall gain 1 Bronze Token for playing any move other than "Pass" or "Farkle" (or, of course, "Timeout".) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 609 - Amendments to "Capture the Flag" (Amendment) Amend Rule 2.8.5 to read: If a Player of one team drops a Flag of another team at Mornington Crescent, then: (1) the Team whose Flag is placed on MC (and all its Players) shall = be removed from the game: (2) all other Flags currently carried by that Team are dropped on = the stations where the flag-carrying Players were situated: (3) all other Tokens and Possessions belonging to the team's Players are discarded. (4) In addition, the Player who performed the drop shall gain 2 Gold Tokens and the other Players in eir Team shall gain 1 Gold Token each, = and that Team's Flag shall return to the Team's Home Station from wherever it is. (Mornington Crescent must still be Opened successfully, normally with the standard cost of 3 Gold Tokens, if a Player moves there to drop the =46lag. It should be noted that Flags, like Players, cannot be Shunted to Mornington Crescent.) When all but one of the teams have been eliminated by this method, = the remaining team is declared the Winners. Simply moving to Mornington = Crescent does not in itself give victory: only by removing all the other teams = from the game in this way can a team be declared victorious. [Comments: This brings back the actual connection between MC and winning - something that is currently lacking in the Flag game.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 610 - Day of Action [Multiple] { Comment: The mission for this Proposal is simple: put all Actions in one table. A secondary mission is to describe Token *effects* rather than just Token costs. Things get complicated after that. The reason for doing this is primarily ease of navigation. I appeciate that this approach is going to produce one mega-Rule, but as the number of Actions has increased it has become harder and harder to find those which are little-used (particularly if one is not sure which phase the Action happens in). I just think one very large Rule is easier to = navigate=3D around than several only slightly smaller Rules. } [Amendment: Action Man] Amend Rule 1.7.2 (Pre-Move Actions) as follows: - rename the Rule to "Actions" - add a column "Phase", marking all Actions currently in the table as "Pre" - incorporate all Actions described in Rule 1.7.15 (Post-Move Actions) into the table with a Phase of "Post" - incorporate all Actions described in Rule 1.7.16 (Neutral Actions) into the table with a Phase of "Neut" - add a column "Gain" and include within all Token effects rather than just costs. [Amendment: Laying the Table] Amend Rule 1.7.1 (Action Types) such that its last two paragraphs read = thus:=3D "The following section lists the available Actions according to these classifications. A duration is only specified where it varies from the standard value defined in the Rule "Carol Vorderman's Revenge". "The "Cost" column of each Table shows the cost or requirements of that Manoeuvre - typically an amount of Tokens. Where no cost is specified, that Action is free. The "Gain" column shows the benefit to the = Actioning Player of playing that Action in terms of Tokens gained." [Repeal: Last Post] Repeal Rule 1.7.15 (Post-Move Actions) [Repeal: No More Neutrality] Repeal Rule 1.7.16 (Neutral Actions) [Amendment: Reasonable Doubt] Amend Rule 2.7.6 (Zone Doubt) such that its final bullet point reads = thus: " * Rule 1.7.2 (Actions) gives the cost for Tithing a Zone, supplying a formula its calculation. This formula should be adjusted (eg 8 - (2 x Zone)) [End of Day of Action] { Comment: So there we have it - fewer changes than I'd expected I must say. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 611 - Cashing In [Amendment] Add an entry to the appropriate Action Table for the Neutral Action = [Cashing In Hats] described in Rule 1.4.6. { Comment: must have just dropped out in one of the reorgs. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 612 - The more Targets the merrier! =46or simplicity, the rest of this Rule refers to the Player or Object affected by the Action as the Target and the Player performing the Action= as the Actor. Any Action which requires the Actor to be at the same Station as a Target may be Proxied. This is done by adding the text '(Proxied)' into the = text of the Action. This addition of text does not change the validity of the Action - thus, a '[Spooning (Proxy)]' Action is as valid as the equivalent '[Spooning ]' Action. Proxying an Action allows the Target to be adjacent to the Station = occupied by the Actor. It specifically changes the location of the Target so that the Target is no longer allowed to be at the same Station as the Actor = for the Proxied Action. Proxying an Action costs one Green Token and one Blue Token. An Action Proxied in this way may be also Extended in the appropriate manner, and = the Green and Blue Tokens thus paid are considered part of the original = Action's cost when calculating the cost of an Extension. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 613 - Safety Dance Reword the last paragraph from Rule 1.4.6 (You Can Leave Your Hat On) to: Any player may perform the Action "[Knocking Hat off ]"; = if the specified Player is carrying a Hat of the specified type and the specified Player is adjacent to or in the same location as the Player performing the Action, the specified Hat is destroyed and removed from = the specified Player's Luggage. {IMHO the [Knocking] action has been far too powerful - there is no other action which you can do to a specific player for one red token which does not require you to be adjacent to them. If everyone plays a Hands on Hat action then the Knocking action is meaningless, and you're reduced to shunting them to remove hats. This way, most of the time you don't have = to play a Hands on Head action unless you're specifically worried about = someone Knocking you. For the paranoid amongst us, this might not mean too much, but I think this brings the Knocking action into line with the rest of = the ruleset.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 614 - Extend in Need If there is no rule called "Extending Attacks", then this Rule revokes itself. Change the last paragraph of the "Extending Attacks" Rule to read: Call the number of Stations between the Actor and the Target 'N' divided = by three (rounding down), including the Target Station but not the Actor's Station. Let M be the sum of all the whole numbers between 1 and N. The cost of the Extension is M multiples of the cost of the original Action. Thus, a shunt Extended by three stations costs 1 extra Red Token for the Extension, and attaching a Freem Clamp to a Player six stations away = means that the Extension costs 3 Red and 3 Green tokens. The Extension cost is added to the original Action's cost when playing = the Action. The Target must be on the same line as the Actor, and the Line Segment between the Target and the Actor must not include any change in Line Direction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 615 - "Thank You For Not Smoking or Summoning Satan In the = Church" [Amendment] Replace the second paragraph of Rule 1.4.24 ("The Podume of Infinite = Darkness") with: "If there is no PoID in play, any Player may perform the Action of = [Forging PoID] to bring the PoID into play, in eir Possession, provided that e is not located at a Holy Station." {Comments: This is to prevent a tricky loophole in the fourth paragraph: "If a Player carrying the Podume of Infinite Darkness ends any Turn at a Holy Station, the Podume is destroyed." By this wording, a Player could move to a Holy Station, Forge the PoID, drop it, and then charge-tunnel away. Since e doesn't end the turn at a Holy Station, the PoID is not destroyed, and it remains there with no way to destroy it, since the station it rests at is Blocked. In fact, one could argue that the Player could remain at the Holy Station= - since they've dropped it, the PoID isn't in their possession at the end = of the Turn, and thus isn't destroyed. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 616 - Going Downhill Fast [Action] { Reimplementation of the Slippery Slope, as promised - becoming an =3D optional LV increase when leaving a High or Hill. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Freewheeling] 1.7.x ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the pre-Move Action of "[Freewheeling]" if eir Piece is situated at a High or Hill Station. Upon performing this Action, eir Line Velocity is increased by one. If a Rule entitled "The Slippery Slope" exists, repeal it. Either way, remove this paragraph from the ruleset after Enactment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 617 - The Midas Clamp [Action] { Clamps have, for some reason, inspired me lately. One thing that seems to have been lost from the things is their ability to be potentially useful, though (Spoon's old Token-doubling effect having been, as far = as I remember, removed a long time ago), so here's something that can be just as beneficial as crippling. I don't think it leaves too much room for loopholes or game-shutdowns... } ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Midasing ] 1.7.x -2 Gr -2 = Bu [Midas Cure] 1.7.x ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Midasing ]", where is either the Actioning Player, or a Player with a = Piece adjacent to the Actioning Player's Piece position. A Midased Player gains a "Midas Clamp" Possession. Midas Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. Whenever a Player carrying a Midas Clamp gains a Token, that Token immediately becomes a Gold Token. If a Player carrying a Midas Clamp Shunts a Token Stack, all Tokens in that Stack are replaced with Gold Tokens. If a Player is carrying a Midas Clamp, e may not perform any Actions which require the expenditure of Gold Tokens. A Player may destroy a single Midas Clamp in eir possession by performing the neutral Action of "[Midas Cure]" whilst at Bank. This Action may not be performed if the Actioning Player gained a Midas Clamp earlier in the Turn. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 618 - Sling Your Hook [Amendment] { The Terminus Slingshot Action in the Ruttsborough Ruleset is, as has been commented, somewhat badly worded; the concept of it is also a = touch ridiculous, to my eyes - that as well as being able to make a powerful cross-board Piece Move in *addition* to your normal Move, which *ignores* all Blocks and impediments, you also get a Silver Token for it. I mean, what? To make it more Ruttsborough, I've changed it to a "pay a Black to set your LV to fifteen, if at a Terminus" thing. Far more in-theme than teleportation, I think you'll agree... Oh, and since there's no comfortable way to fit Special Ruleset Actions into any sort of list, the Action description is to be placed in the rule itself, traditional formatting being used for the sake of clarity.= } Reword Rule 2.4.4 (Terminus Slingshot) to:- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Terminus Slingshot] 2.4.4 -1 Bk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the neutral Action of "[Terminus Slingshot]" if = eir Piece rests at a Terminus Station. Upon performing this Action, eir = Line Velocity is set to fifteen. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 619 - Find the Map [Rewrite] In Rule 1.17.1 (The Underground Map) replace the existing (and long = obsolete) Innotts URL with "http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/map.html". { Tsk. However did that manage to stay there for so long? } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 620 - What's My Line? [Rewrite] Remove the last paragraph of Rule 1.17.4 (Line Code). { It says nothing which isn't stated elsewhere in the ruleset. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Feb 23 17:15:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13614 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Feb 1999 01:15:43 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 01:15:43 -0000 Received: from modem-15.indium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.24.15] helo=franz-liszt) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10FSvA-0006BK-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:15:28 +0000 Message-ID: <001f01be5f94$0fb56fe0$0f18883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:33:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 42 - Votes on Week 41 Proposals - BZZZZZT! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, but I just noticed this... >601 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR - PAS - AGA FOR >602 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR FOR >603 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR FOR >604 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR FOR >605 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - FOR FOR ^^^^^^^ ***BZZZZZZZZZZT!!!*** Only three proposals per person per week! (Rule 0.4.3) I wouldn't mind, but *every one* of them passing gives the proposer a somewhat dubiously large advantage in the Kudos stakes... Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Feb 23 17:15:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13630 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Feb 1999 01:15:46 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 01:15:46 -0000 Received: from modem-15.indium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.24.15] helo=franz-liszt) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10FSvB-0006BK-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:15:29 +0000 Message-ID: <002001be5f94$105420e0$0f18883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:11:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 42 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 615 - "Thank You For Not Smoking or Summoning Satan In the Church" Replace the second paragraph of Rule 1.4.24 ("The Podume of Infinite Darkness") with: "If there is no PoID in play, any Player may perform the Action of [Forging PoID] to bring the PoID into play, in eir Possession, provided that e is not located at a Holy Station." {Comments: This is to prevent a tricky loophole in the fourth paragraph: "If a Player carrying the Podume of Infinite Darkness ends any Turn at a Holy Station, the Podume is destroyed." By this wording, a Player could move to a Holy Station, Forge the PoID, drop it, and then charge-tunnel away. Since e doesn't end the turn at a Holy Station, the PoID is not destroyed, and it remains there with no way to destroy it, since the station it rests at is Blocked. In fact, one could argue that the Player could remain at the Holy Station - since they've dropped it, the PoID isn't in their possession at the end of the Turn, and thus isn't destroyed. } Comments noted. I'm in favour of this one, though I've got a few of my own plans for PoIDs... incluing a removal of the clause about shunting them (having done so successfully myself on at least one occasion at Delphi) Proposal 616 - Going Downhill Fast [Action] { Reimplementation of the Slippery Slope, as promised - becoming an = optional LV increase when leaving a High or Hill. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Rule Duration Cost ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Freewheeling] 1.7.x ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the pre-Move Action of "[Freewheeling]" if eir Piece is situated at a High or Hill Station. Upon performing this Action, eir Line Velocity is increased by one. Right. Good one. Proposal 617 - The Midas Clamp [Action] Whenever a Player carrying a Midas Clamp gains a Token, that Token immediately becomes a Gold Token. If a Player carrying a Midas Clamp Shunts a Token Stack, all Tokens in that Stack are replaced with Gold Tokens. If a Player is carrying a Midas Clamp, e may not perform any Actions which require the expenditure of Gold Tokens. A Player may destroy a single Midas Clamp in eir possession by performing the neutral Action of "[Midas Cure]" whilst at Bank. This Action may not be performed if the Actioning Player gained a Midas Clamp earlier in the Turn. This is, surely, unfairly advantageous to players who choose Home Stations on one of the lines passing through Bank, and disadvantageous to those who do not. The reason for this is, players who cannot gain Black Tokens will soon run out of the ability to change Line... (other Tokens needed for other Special Moves will, similarly, soon be run out of) and players whose Home Stations are on a Line that passes through Bank can then simply play "Home" (which of course, being a special move and at no cost, doesn't incur the line-changing cost) and afterwards be able to move to Bank at no cost, without changing line. Meanwhile, the people who aren't on the same line as Bank will *never* be able to get to it, as all the tokens they need will be immediately converted to gold. Not to mention the fact of people passing and gaining 2 tokens, both immediately converted to gold: someone whose home is at, say, Bethnal Green would be in an obscenely rich position with nothing able to hurt him (sit on Home Station, gain 2 gold tokens per turn until bored, move along to Bank at an LV of 2, then you have loads of gold tokens - and of course can buy a Money Belt, so you never lose any tokens - and head for MC next go.) This would be especially bad in any game but the Long Game - remembering that it only takes 3 golds to open MC - and terrible even there. Of course, probably nobody would ever Midas Clamp anyone, because of just this eventuality - the *last* thing you want is to not just allow but force your opponents to gain gold tokens.) Proposal 618 - Sling Your Hook [Amendment] > { The Terminus Slingshot Action in the Ruttsborough Ruleset is, as has > been commented, somewhat badly worded Yes. I know. Unfortunately it was me that worded it without thinking... Nice rearrangement, but I've got my own ideas which I was going to post next week. >To make it more Ruttsborough, I've changed it to a "pay a Black to set > your LV to fifteen, if at a Terminus" thing. Far more in-theme than > teleportation, I think you'll agree... I'd prefer the terminus-to-terminus option to be kept - but removing the reward at the end (maybe a bigger cost as well, or perhaps that the player must reset an LV of at least 10 back to zero afterwards: a bit like this week's Terminal Velocity amendment to Chalk Farm), and stating that the move between the two passes through all the stations in between (rather than being a teleport) and is thus prevented by blocks, sinkholes or damaged stations... (in fact, maybe it should stop in such a situation at the station before the block. It would give, for instance, some players the idea of bulkheading Camden Town to slingshot from Morden to MC - and others would then have to work out how to remove the bulkhead or repair the damaged station, or drop a sinkhole in between the two stations...) For me, the whole point is that it's a mad, out-of-control rush which crashes into the buffers at the other end - not a simple "oh, you can move at maximum velocity next turn", which doesn't sound so Ruttsborough as a high-speed pile-up IMHO. So, while I'll vote for this amendment this week (as it desperately needs *some* form of amendment), I shall probably be proposing another amendment next week along the lines I've mentioned above. (If the CF Terminal Velocity amendment passes, expect an amendment for that as well so that the move passes through all the stations in between - and is thus brought up short by blocks, sinkholes etc.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Feb 24 01:35:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7226 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Feb 1999 08:19:13 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 08:19:13 -0000 Received: from [208.169.216.34] (cvl216034.columbus.rr.com [208.169.216.34]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA15768 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:23:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:21:18 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 42 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >simply play "Home" (which of course, being a special move and at no cost, >doesn't incur the line-changing cost) It doesn't? The [Home] action doesn't take you home, it just allows you to make a move to your home station. You still have to Move there, and if it's on a different line, wouldn't that involve a Line Change? If not, I want my black token back in Game 12. :) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Feb 24 02:55:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30499 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Feb 1999 09:39:06 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 09:39:06 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA14972 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:38:50 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 09:38:50 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA07196; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:38:49 GMT Message-Id: <199902240938.JAA07196@uksn82> Date: 24 Feb 99 09:36:56 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-63-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 24-Feb-99 00:33 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 42 - Votes on Week 41 Proposals - BZZZZZT! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >***BZZZZZZZZZZT!!!*** Only three proposals per person per week! (Rule 0.4.3) >I wouldn't mind, but *every one* of them passing gives the proposer a >somewhat dubiously large advantage in the Kudos stakes... Not anymore - the rules now say three Proposals of any type, plus another two Rewrites. Two of Kevan's were Rewrites, which adds up to five. As a reminder, a Rewrite aims "To rewrite a single Rule, changing style without altering content." -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Feb 24 08:32:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12759 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Feb 1999 15:44:10 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 15:44:10 -0000 Received: from modem-59.tin.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.24.187] helo=franz-liszt) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10FgTb-0006dY-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:43:55 +0000 Message-ID: <005801be600d$652334c0$bb18883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:50:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 42 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>simply play "Home" (which of course, being a special move and at no cost, >>doesn't incur the line-changing cost) > >It doesn't? > >The [Home] action doesn't take you home, it just allows you to make a move >to your home station. You still have to Move there, and if it's on a >different line, wouldn't that involve a Line Change? > >If not, I want my black token back in Game 12. :) I was under the impression that the black token (whether gained for staying on the same line or lost for changing line) applied to normal (i.e. LV-dependent) Piece Moves, and Special Moves (those allowed by a Pre-Move or Post-Move Action) counted differently. See Rules 1.5.8 and 1.5.11: a "Piece Move" excludes all Action-related changes, referring only to normal motion along Underground Lines. This certainly accounts for all Post-Move Action-related changes of position, e.g. straddles. Whether it applies to moves made valid by Pre-Move actions is not entirely clear, except that in Rule 1.5.0 these actions are defined as "Special Moves", i.e. with the implication that they are not normal moves, and thus do not qualify for the black token bonus (if remaining on the Line) or cost (if not). Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Feb 24 10:01:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6785 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Feb 1999 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.211) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from modem-14.lupron.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.77.14] helo=my) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10Fi4Y-0000bQ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:26:13 +0000 Message-ID: <00e401be601b$6f8dcca0$0e4d883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:16:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 42 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 607 - Terminal Velocity [Amendment] Rather too fiddly for my tastes, I fear, particularly for such a freely-useable rule. Special Rulesets work nicely when their quirks are of great impact but of uncomplicated explanation (I can remember the Ruttsborough rules off the top of my head quite easily, possibly having to check the intricacies of the current Slingshot Action if I'm going to perform it). This Proposal would work pretty much the same if it said "If a Player has an LV of ten or more, all Termini are considered Wild during eir Turn. If a Player performs a Wild Action, e may not change Line or Line Direction during eir Move, unless eir destination is listed as a Wild Station on the GSD.", or something. But even that's a bit tangled, and doesn't make for a very interesting rule. We probably need to establish "themes" for all of the Special Rulesets, rather than tossing in interesting Rules at random... >Proposal 608 - Chateau d'Eau > >[Comments: This is the first MC game on a non-London tube network... the >Paris Metro. It is set up under the "Turin '57" rule 2.7.1.] Excellent. Top marks to whoever put this one together. And sign me up for the first Game we play on it. >Proposal 609 - Amendments to "Capture the Flag" (Amendment) Hmm. Interesting, but I'm not sure if it adds or detracts from the style of the Special Ruleset. Since we've never actually played a Capture the Flag Game, it's hard to tell if anything needs fixing. I think "take the Flag to your HQ" is fairer than "to MC", either way; the route from one HQ to the other and back is going to be the same for both teams, but the route from one HQ to the other and then to MC is unlikely to be reasonably matched. I quite like the idea of having a Game where you don't have to bother collecting Golds, too; where you can concentrate all your Tokens on attacking and defending. >[Comments: This brings back the actual connection between MC and >winning - something that is currently lacking in the Flag game.] Hmm. Do we have a CAMREC sympathiser in our midst? >Proposal 610 - Day of Action [Multiple] > >{ Comment: > The mission for this Proposal is simple: put all Actions in one table. Ordered alphabetically, or still by phase? This Proposal seems unclear on the matter - if it's the former, then I give it the thumbs-down, for I often browse through the relevant list of Actions to see just what I can do to Dunx now that I'm at his Home Station, what I can do at Hyde Park before I Move away from it, or whatever. Ordering by phase seems a shade superfluous, since they already are, and it's obviously helpful to have clear divides between each set. > A secondary mission is to describe Token *effects* rather than just > Token costs. Is this really necessary? There are only about half a dozen Actions that give any sort of Token benefit, aren't there? > The reason for doing this is primarily ease of navigation. I appeciate > that this approach is going to produce one mega-Rule, but as the number > of Actions has increased it has become harder and harder to find those > which are little-used (particularly if one is not sure which phase the > Action happens in). I've always, always just done a normal text search for the Action I'm after, personally - it usually turns up the relevant bit of the relevant Action Table on the first search, and the Action itself when I search again. >Proposal 612 - The more Targets the merrier! I'm still unendeared to this whole thing, I'm afraid. It's too counter-intuitive, Clamping or Shunting someone a few Stations away. >Proposal 613 - Safety Dance > >{IMHO the [Knocking] action has been far too powerful - there is no other >action which you can do to a specific player for one red token which does >not require you to be adjacent to them. If everyone plays a Hands on Hat >action then the Knocking action is meaningless, and you're reduced to >shunting them to remove hats. This way, most of the time you don't have to >play a Hands on Head action unless you're specifically worried about someone >Knocking you. For the paranoid amongst us, this might not mean too much, >but I think this brings the Knocking action into line with the rest of the >ruleset.} A good point, really - I remember being surprised when I realised somewhat belatedly that you needn't share a Station to knock a Hat off. This amendment makes the business more intuitive, but it also renders the Action too narrow to be of much use; if you're that near to a Player, you can take other action (as it were) to foil their millinery. The whole Hat thing is a bit boring at the moment, really - slowly collect them, spend 20 minutes a Turn keeping them on your head, and then claim Golds for them. I venture it'd be better to just remove the "Knocking" and "Hands on Head" Actions, and leave it to Shunting and more creative de-hatting. >Proposal 614 - Extend in Need > >Let M be the sum of all the whole numbers between 1 and N. I'm scared. Any rule which can't be chattily explained in a paragraph or two isn't worth having, to these eyes. Still, the Extended Attacks rule didn't get in, so this won't do anything. >Proposal 615 - "Thank You For Not Smoking or Summoning Satan In the >Church" A good point, but it misses "moving to a Holy Station and dropping the Podume", which locks the Game in the same manner. I've no problem with the idea of locking the Game in such a manner, myself. Aside from the availability of possibly-awkward loopholes (Charge Tunnelling to the Holy Station to collect the PoID, for example), being able to put the game into stalemate doesn't seem "wrong". If you manage to lock the game in such a way that you're the only Player who can benefit from it, then it's applaudable strategy - if you manage to lock the game so that it can't progress any further, then you've stopped anyone else from Winning the Game, which is an equally valid approach (particularly if someone else was about to Win). >In fact, one could argue that the Player could remain at the Holy Station - >since they've dropped it, the PoID isn't in their possession at the end of >the Turn, and thus isn't destroyed. No argument about it, really; it's very clearly worded. >Proposal 617 - The Midas Clamp [Action] My Proposal, so I'll just respond to Jonathan's comments:- > This is, surely, unfairly advantageous to players who choose Home >Stations on one of the lines passing through Bank, and disadvantageous to >those who do not. This is true. But Parks and Greens Cascades are unfairly advantageous to Players with a Green as their Home, Pigeon-Releasing biased towards Players living in distant Parks, and so forth. There are pros and cons to every choice of Home Station - although this adds a "pro" to all those sharing a Line with Bank, those Stations still have their drawbacks elsewhere; I can't see everyone saying "Ooh, ooh, must have a Home Station which I can return to if someone should Midas Clamp me." >The reason for this is, players who cannot gain Black >Tokens will soon run out of the ability to change Line... Indeed. (Incidentally, RiffRaff, Homing doesn't require a Line Change; "Special Moves" come after "Trivial Fares" in Rule 1.5.0's validity checks, so it doesn't matter if you pay the Black or not. Tsk.) >Meanwhile, the people who aren't on the >same line as Bank will *never* be able to get to it, as all the tokens they >need will be immediately converted to gold. I'm not sure about "never" - there's probably a useable trick somewhere. [has a look] Hmm. You can use a Stub Link, or Strile. It's not impossible. I'm sure there are other ways; presumably it'd be fairly easy to bribe other Players to help you, if you had lots of spare Golds... > Not to mention the fact of people passing and gaining 2 tokens, both >immediately converted to gold: someone whose home is at, say, Bethnal Green >would be in an obscenely rich position with nothing able to hurt him (sit on >Home Station, gain 2 gold tokens per turn until bored, move along to Bank at >an LV of 2, then you have loads of gold tokens - and of course can buy a >Money Belt, so you never lose any tokens - and head for MC next go.) Hmm. I always forget that Money Belts haven't been repealed. But would this be such an obscene tactic? If someone Midas-Clamps themselves and starts racking up Golds, the other Players will presumably be pretty quick to go and guard Bank. >Of course, probably >nobody would ever Midas Clamp anyone, because of just this eventuality - the > *last* thing you want is to not just allow but force your opponents to gain >gold tokens.) Well, as with the King himself, having everything turn to Gold is at first glance staggeringly lovely, but when you realise that you can't gather the Tokens to perform useful Actions, the novelty wears off. I can see the Clamp being used as a way to foil someone about to Win - even if they've got enough Tokens to wander off to Bank and get cured, it'll slow down their path to victory (at the cost of giving them a few extra Golds, if they want them). >Proposal 618 - Sling Your Hook [Amendment] Another of mine, and further response to Jonathan:- >(in fact, maybe it should stop in such a situation at the >station before the block. It would give, for instance, some players the idea >of bulkheading Camden Town to slingshot from Morden to MC - and others would >then have to work out how to remove the bulkhead or repair the damaged >station, or drop a sinkhole in between the two stations...) Ooh. That's quite stylish. I'm not sure if this should be extended to normal play - that with an LV of 10, you can move five Stations and crash against an adjacent Block, to stop... More useful than Rebounding. Hmm. > For me, the whole point is that it's a mad, out-of-control rush which >crashes into the buffers at the other end - not a simple "oh, you can move >at maximum velocity next turn", which doesn't sound so Ruttsborough as a >high-speed pile-up IMHO. [smiles] Well, no, but "your Piece is moved to another Station" doesn't sound so Ruttsborough as "suddenly you rush back along the line at the highest possible speed, ready to smash opponents far into the outer reaches of Zone 6", either. Hyperbole aside, though, I think an LV boost is better than a direct Move to a distant Station - the former obviously lends itself to aggressive play far more than the latter. A nice lot of Proposals this Week, anyway - good to see things picking up again. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Feb 26 01:35:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20719 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Feb 1999 09:34:46 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 09:34:46 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA19429 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:34:28 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 09:34:28 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA01927; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:34:27 GMT Message-Id: <199902260934.JAA01927@uksn82> Date: 26 Feb 99 09:32:16 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PaulWay has conceded my win in Game 14, so here are the scores: Dunx +2 dave -1 PaulWay -1 This means that the Player scores change as follows: dave 0 Dunx 8 PaulWay 1 ... which makes me the current Grandmaster. How embarrassing. All this leaves the Brooke-Taylor Lounge free - what would people like to play next? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Feb 26 06:08:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21262 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Feb 1999 14:08:25 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 14:08:25 -0000 Received: from modem-8.rhodium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.22.8] helo=my) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10GNw0-0008Tw-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:08:08 +0000 Message-ID: <009901be6192$0f781500$0816883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:41:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >PaulWay has conceded my win in Game 14, [...] Ah, bravo. I'll have to take a peek at the archives and see how the Game was won. >... which makes me the current Grandmaster. Cue applause. We really should try a Tournament one of these days. >All this leaves the Brooke-Taylor Lounge free - what would people like to >play next? "Chateau d'Eau", personally, assuming that it gets through on Tuesday. I hadn't realised there was another Game nearing completion, actually, which is why I was rather merciless in my Game 13 first-Turn win (which I'm happy to take back, really; it's just that abusing a loophole usually gets people's attention more than just mentioning it in passing). Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Graeme Jefferis Mon Mar 1 04:08:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20143 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Mar 1999 12:08:04 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 1999 12:08:04 -0000 Received: from vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03644 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:15:41 GMT Received: from aruba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@a... [146.227.102.126]) by vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7/H1.6) with ESMTP id MAA24619 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:06:40 GMT From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by aruba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id MAA18411 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:06:38 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:06:38 GMT Message-Id: <199903011206.MAA18411@a...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: MaLjE/xa47EvN5FTeUA3hQ== Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From l-nomic-d-return-68-se98gj=dmu.ac.uk@returns.egroups.com Fri Feb 26 14:09:17 1999 > Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com > X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com > X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ > Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com > Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com > From: "Kevan Davis" > To: > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:41:34 -0000 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 > Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Length: 1037 > > >PaulWay has conceded my win in Game 14, [...] > > > Ah, bravo. I'll have to take a peek at the archives and see how the Game > was won. > > >... which makes me the current Grandmaster. > > Cue applause. > > We really should try a Tournament one of these days. > > >All this leaves the Brooke-Taylor Lounge free - what would people like to > >play next? > > "Chateau d'Eau", personally, assuming that it gets through on Tuesday. I > hadn't realised there was another Game nearing completion, actually, > which is why I was rather merciless in my Game 13 first-Turn win (which > I'm happy to take back, really; it's just that abusing a loophole usually > gets people's attention more than just mentioning it in passing). I'd rather you did (take it back) to be honest, as Finsbury Option needs a decent play-through. Well spotted, at any rate: I can't for the life of me think of a valid argument against it. Chateau d'Eau combined with Mornington Croissant has a nice sound, but I don't think it'd work at all well. A Ruttsborough Tournament strikes me as interesting... -Grimace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 1 18:15:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29475 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 02:14:49 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 02:14:49 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA11410; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:14:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma011120; Tue, 2 Mar 99 12:13:55 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:13:54 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EE7@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:13:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Possible move to crescent.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, For those not subscribed to the Mornington Crescent Discussion List, Matthew (who owns the http://www.crescent.org.uk domain and server and works for an internet hosting company) has offered to host the MN lists on his server. This would not only be a nice thing (rather than have the lists hosted out of some faceless 'free' service provider), but would also be a step up in reliability and speed. We would also be able to ditch the annoying advertisements at the end of messages, something I think would be all for the best. Does anyone have any problems with this? P.S. if you want to subscribe to the above mentioned list, send a blank email to mcd-l-subscribe-request@m... - another list which is probably going over to the Crescent server. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 1 20:58:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19722 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 04:58:47 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 04:58:47 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA29489; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:58:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029466; Tue, 2 Mar 99 14:58:24 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:58:24 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EE9@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:58:16 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, March 01, 1999 10:07 PM, Graeme Jefferis [SMTP:se98gj@d...] wrote: > > >... which makes me the current Grandmaster. > > Cue applause. Yes, I'm afraid Dunx's superior information processing abilities are coming to the fore... Aside from the fact that, when I started the game, Terminus Running was still permissible, and it was then voted out during my first move. (Or something like that - the history of that precise moment is a little foggy). So my whole game strategy has changed. > A Ruttsborough Tournament strikes me as interesting... I'd be in that one... Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNtrjSctA22MsBS7iEQLvQwCgrKm7r3bDo5ohPMHcKWIaN4jkzkMAoMQX Cxp4ZJgpls46LaJEpsLI1aa+ =kKYW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Mar 1 22:54:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 656 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 06:54:36 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 06:54:36 -0000 Received: from [208.169.217.250] (cvl217250.columbus.rr.com [208.169.217.250]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA15614 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:54:18 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:56:41 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Monday, March 01, 1999 10:07 PM, Graeme Jefferis [SMTP:se98gj@d...] >wrote: >> > >... which makes me the current Grandmaster. >> > Cue applause. > >Yes, I'm afraid Dunx's superior information processing abilities are coming >to the fore... > >Aside from the fact that, when I started the game, Terminus Running was >still permissible, and it was then voted out during my first move. (Or >something like that - the history of that precise moment is a little >foggy). So my whole game strategy has changed. > >> A Ruttsborough Tournament strikes me as interesting... > >I'd be in that one... How about just a Vanilla Tournament first? Thought: Should the game be Frozen for the duration of a tournament, to keep the same ruleset for all the involved games? --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 1 23:25:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12146 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 07:25:25 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 07:25:25 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA24877; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:25:05 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmab24758; Tue, 2 Mar 99 17:24:42 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:24:41 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EEE@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:19:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 02, 1999 4:57 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > >> A Ruttsborough Tournament strikes me as interesting... > > > >I'd be in that one... > > How about just a Vanilla Tournament first? > > Thought: Should the game be Frozen for the duration of a tournament, to > keep the same ruleset for all the involved games? Ah, Tournament. I was thinking Team game. Ruttsborough team, yes, Tournament, not for this little steaming piece of henge, Yields falsehood when preceded by its own quotation, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNtsEfctA22MsBS7iEQKIuACeL100Qmk4UyNZ9JnrDvVJkyRe+NQAoPgI hF2HRYlyRh44U/oYPKzzfadx =9tqA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Mar 1 23:34:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15754 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 07:34:46 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 07:34:46 -0000 Received: from [208.169.217.250] (cvl217250.columbus.rr.com [208.169.217.250]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA18844 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:34:29 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:36:51 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game 14 - The Scores On The Doors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ah, Tournament. I was thinking Team game. Ruttsborough team, yes, >Tournament, not for this little steaming piece of henge, > Ruttsborough Teams does sound like fun... I'd be up for that. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 2 02:03:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4936 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 10:03:19 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 10:03:19 -0000 Received: from modem-25.ibuprofin.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.73.25] helo=my) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Hm0z-0002V0-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:03:01 +0000 Message-ID: <00a401be6494$7c7607c0$1949883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:35:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Possible move to crescent.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >For those not subscribed to the Mornington Crescent Discussion List, Hmm. What's its subscribe-address, again? >Matthew >(who owns the http://www.crescent.org.uk domain and server and works for an >internet hosting company) has offered to host the MN lists on his server. >This would not only be a nice thing (rather than have the lists hosted out >of some faceless 'free' service provider), but would also be a step up in >reliability and speed. We would also be able to ditch the annoying >advertisements at the end of messages, something I think would be all for >the best. > >Does anyone have any problems with this? Probably not. So long as you can vouch for said "reliability and speed", I'd be happy to see it shifted. I think the only good thing we'd perhaps lose is the mailing list archive - the old Foobar list was monitored and logged by eGroups, but I *think* they've stopped the service these days, possibly realising that they're better off just archiving their own lists and waiting for people to switch to them. Maybe I just couldn't find the right button when I was trying to do such a thing the other week, though. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 2 02:43:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Duplicate: Duplicate Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13377 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 10:28:58 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA19270; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:28:40 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 10:28:39 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA25088; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:28:38 GMT Message-Id: <199903021028.KAA25088@uksn82> Date: 02 Mar 99 10:25:48 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-g@egroups.com Cc: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-g-return-22-DELLIS=UK.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 02-Mar-99 08:59 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: MN-G: Call for Judgment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan wrote: > Can we have a Judge please, Dunx? Very well. RiffRaff is nominated as Judge. E should consult Rule 1.16.3 for details of eir duties. (excuse the cross post to the Davis Lounge, but I don't know if RiffRaff has= subscribed to the Garden list.) -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 2 15:41:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25591 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Mar 1999 23:39:21 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 23:39:21 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA18283; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:39:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma018143; Wed, 3 Mar 99 09:38:47 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:38:46 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EEF@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:38:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Possible move to crescent.org.uk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 02, 1999 7:36 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > >For those not subscribed to the Mornington Crescent Discussion List, > > Hmm. What's its subscribe-address, again? See the Postscript of my first message. Send a blank email to mcd-l-subscribe-request@m... > Probably not. So long as you can vouch for said "reliability and speed", > I'd be happy to see it shifted. I think the only good thing we'd perhaps > lose is the mailing list archive - the old Foobar list was monitored > and logged by eGroups, but I *think* they've stopped the service > these days, possibly realising that they're better off just archiving their > own lists and waiting for people to switch to them. I have a complete archive of all the lists saved in my mail system. I'd put them up somewhere if you wanted, but honestly I think the game state is moving fast enough that, given a week or two, the archives would be as good as populated. Anyway, I haven't heard anything back from Matt, so I'll check this out. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNtvp5ctA22MsBS7iEQIX3gCg8Di7eKIreDxoblpnsr/V+24T/RAAoPaM 2shn1GGxWbDlZQchXHX814me =BiVO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 2 22:38:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7425 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 06:38:31 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 06:38:31 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10I5IF-00004u-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:38:08 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 06:31:09 GMT Message-ID: <36dcd65a.185239@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 43 - Voting Results for Year 2, Week 42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 607 Terminal Velocity 3 1 1 3 Passes 608 Chateau d'Eau 4 1 - 3 Passes 609 Am'ts to Capture the Flag 3 1 1 3 Passes 610 Day of Action 3 1 1 3 Passes=20 611 Cashing In 4 1 - 3 Passes 612 The More Targets the Merrier 2 1 2 3 Fails 613 Safety Dance 3 1 1 3 Passes 614 Extend in Need 1 1 3 3 Fails =20 615 Thank You for Not Smoking 3 1 1 3 Passes 616 Going Downhill Fast 4 1 - 3 Passes 617 The Midas Clamp 2 1 3 3 Fails 618 Sling Your Hook 3 1 1 3 Passes 619 Find the Map 4 1 - 3 Passes 620 What's My Line? 4 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Julie Kevan miKi Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 607 (Jonathan) - FOR - - PAS - AGA - FOR = =46OR 608 (Jonathan - FOR - - PAS - FOR - FOR = =46OR 609 (Jonathan) - FOR - - PAS - AGA - FOR = =46OR 610 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR - AGA - FOR = =46OR 611 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR - FOR - FOR = =46OR 612 (PaulWay) - FOR - - AGA - AGA - PAS = =46OR 613 (PaulWay) - FOR - - FOR - AGA - PAS = =46OR 614 (PaulWay) - AGA - - FOR - AGA - PAS = AGA 615 (RiffRaff) - FOR - - FOR - AGA - FOR = PAS 616 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 617 (Kevan) - AGA - - AGA - FOR - FOR = AGA 618 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR - PAS - AGA = =46OR 619 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 620 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Julie Kevan miKi Paul = Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 27 6 0 3 0 56 16 19 = 14 Halved: 13 3 1 28 9 = 7 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +7 +0 +10 +17 +6 = +3 AGA Votes: I -1 -0 I -2 I -4 I -6 = -1 Decisiveness: n +3 +0 n +3 n +3 n +3 = +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 a -3 a -0 = -0 c c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 t +0 t +0 = +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 i +0 i -0 = -0 Finger/Pulse: v +0 +0 v +0 v +0 v +0 = +0 e e e e Repeal: +4 +0 +0 +0 +0 = +0 Rewrite: +0 +0 +0 +6 +0 = +0 Award Ceremony: [a] +3 +0 +4 +6 +0 = +3 Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +16 +0 +0 +15 +25 +3 = +8 Final Kudos: 11 29 3 0 16 0 53 16 12 = 15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Julie Kevan miKi Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (Sling Your Hook) CAMREC Cleanup Award - Kevan (Find the Map) Mrs Trellis Award - Jonathan (Chateau d'Eau) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 2 22:38:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7614 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 06:38:45 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 06:38:45 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10I5II-00004u-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:38:10 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 06:31:12 GMT Message-ID: <36ddd6ce.301531@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 43 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Three -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 621 - Keep the balance right. [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph in Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos) to read: At the start of each Week, the lowest Kudos score of all Active Players = at the end of the previous Week is determined. This lowest score is = subtracted from each Player's Kudos score of the previous Week and given to em as = eir starting Kudos for this Week. Kudos then gets added to or subtracted = from this score from the current Weeks' events. If a Player is Inactive at = the end of the Week, no changes shall be made to eir Kudos. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 622 - Reintermination [Action] [Terminus Collect] - duration 20 minutes, no cost. If eir Move ends at a Terminus (i.e. eir Move ended at a Terminus on the line they moved along during that Move), a Player may play a Terminus Collect Action. This Action may not be played twice on the same = Terminus, and the Move must include movement on the Line Segment which the Station Terminates. Thus, [Wild] movement or other Actions which move a piece directly to its destination cannot be used in the same Play as a Terminus Collect Action. Upon successful completion of the Terminus Collect, the Player receives = one Silver Token. {Basically a rework of the Terminus Running, with a couple of slightly = more friendly ideas: * It's a post-move action that directly prevents people wilding in. * It's cost is lower, and the implicit trip to Bank to convert to a Gold makes the player easier to target. * It's got a better definition of the fact that the move actually = terminates at that station on that line. Hopefully people will find this a bit more playable.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 623 - Lack of Interest Declared [Resignation] Julie shall be forced to Resign. { Comment: I've targeted Julie because e was made Inactive by proxy, and because e'd stopped playing by that stage anyway. It seems unlikely e'll = return. I have refrained from targeting miKi in the same way, since e was = active right up until the point where e left, even though eir Inactivity is about as long standing as Julie's. Maybe rethink in a few months. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 624 - We're Bound for Botany Bay (not quite) A new Turin '57 subset for the city of Sydney. The URL of the map in question is: http://people.enternet.com.au/~cbrnbill/maps/sydney.htm Goal: Macdonaldtown (an almost completely disused station...) Bank: Town Hall Loop: Rooty Hill Line Codes are: SR : Southern Line (Green) WR : Western Line (Yellow) NR : Northern Line (Red) IR : Illawarra Line (Blue) BR : Bankstown Line (Brown) CR : Cumberland Line (Purple) MR : Monorail (White) LR : Light Rail (Light Blue) TZ : Taronga Zoo Ferry (Blue) MF : Manly Ferry (Light Blue) WF : Watson's Bay (Green) PF : Paramatta, Meadowbank Ferry (Yellow) DF : Darling Harbour Ferry (Purple) NF : Mosman, Neutral Bay Ferry (Red) HF : Hunter's Hill Ferry (Brown) The body of water corresponding to the Thames is the Sydney Harbour. In addition to the normal system of interchanges, ferry stops which share= a name with a rail station (such as Milson's Point) are also considered Interchanges. Classifications of stations are as per normal. There are no zones shown on the map; therefore all Rules relating to = Zones are ignored. Players shall gain a single Bronze Token on eir Turn. Central Station is the Median of the map, and the Quadrants are = superimposed on the Sydney system in the same way as they exist in the London Underground. All Interchanges are to be considered the equivalent of British Rail stations for the purposes of the Emporium. All other Rules relating to British Rail stations shall be ignored. Hats are claimable as normal. Gambits referring to specific London Underground stations are to be = ignored, except in the case where the names of the stations in the Gambit are also= to be found in stations in the Sydney system. In addition, the following Gambits are declared according to Rule 2.7.9: The City Tourist (2 red, 4 blue, 3 green): Exhibition Centre -> Museum -> Circular Quay The PaulWay Arrival Gambit (1 black, 1 red, 1 green, 1 blue, 1 bronze, 1 silver): Hornsby -> Central -> Stanmore The Olympic Tourist (1 Gold, 1 Silver, 1 Bronze): Central -> Olympic Park= -> Taronga Zoo The Danger Man Attack (6 Red, 4 Blue, 1 Silver): King's Cross -> Redfern = -> Mount Druitt -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 625 - Infinite Darkness... [Amendment] Replace the text of Rule 1.4.24 in its entirety, with the following: "There shall exist a Small, Unique, Indestructable Possession known = as the Podume of Infinite Darkness, which may be present on the Map or in = the Luggage Rack. It may be placed on a Station or picked up from that = Station only by a Player finishing eir Turn at that Station (with the Actions of [PoID on ] and [Collecting PoID] respectively.) The presence of the PoID at a Station is indicated as a Token Stack with the Text "PoID": No other Tokens may be placed on that Station, and placing a PoID on a station which already contains a Token Stack destroys that Stack. The PoID's presence in the Luggage Rack is indicated as a standard Possession. If there is no PoID in play, any Player may play the Action of = [Forging PoID] to bring the PoID into play in eir Possession. This Action may be played only if the Forging Player voluntarily plays "Pass" twice in succession, with no Actions other than the Forging (i.e. the Pass may not= be forced by any other Rule), and e has remained situated at the same = Station for all that time, and Game Time is not between 0800 and 2000 = (inclusive): and it may not be performed at a Holy Station. {Comment: Summoning the Infinite Darkness cannot be done during daylight hours, or in church... and it costs a lot, and (like all black magic) is ruined if the summoner is disturbed, for instance by being Shunted...} The PoID is destroyed if it is dropped on a Holy Station or Shunted directly to one, or if a Player carrying it ever finishes eir Turn at a = Holy Station. If a Player is carrying the PoID: E loses 2 points of LV per turn automatically (for a total adjustment of between +1 and -5), e may not = make any Special Moves, and e may not be the target of any Action which = directly targets another Player (i.e. any action which includes the string = where is the name of any Player involved in the Game), nor may e move to Mornington Crescent or pass through a Holy Station. Also, one of = eir non-Black Tokens is converted to a Black Token for each Turn the PoID remains in eir possession. If the PoID is on a Station: All players must lose 2 points of LV = per turn (for a total possible adjustment of between +1 and -5) and may not = make any Special Moves or be the target of any Action which targets another Player. Mornington Crescent and all Holy Stations are treated as Blocked = for Players only (but not for the purpose of Shunting Token Stacks), and all Players must convert one non-Black Token to a Black Token each Turn, as above. The PoID may be Shunted as if it were a Token Stack. It is destroyed= if it is ever shunted directly to a Holy Station, but may not be Dead-End Shunted. It may not be shunted to Mornington Crescent, but may be Double-Shunted there (if it is involved in a Double-Shunt, any other = Token Stacks involved in the multiple Shunt are destroyed.) If the PoID is ever on Mornington Crescent (by being Double-Shunted there), all Players must lose two Tokens if they have them, and one Possession (Clamps may be removed only if the Player has no non-Clamp possessions to lose) per Turn: these are discarded. All Token Stacks lose= 1 Token each time the Player who Double-Shunted the PoID to MC takes a = Turn. If a Player has no Tokens or Possessions to lose, e may play no move = other than "Pass" with no Actions. If no Players have any Tokens or Possessions left, the game is abandoned with no winner. It follows that the only way to remove a PoID from Mornington = Crescent is to Double-Shunt it away - the same way it arrived - as no Player may = move to MC to play a single Shunt, nor can e get there to pick it up. {Comments: Now PoIDs can be really nasty, but *much* harder to = forge... can you cooperate to shunt something to MC to dislodge the PoID before it destroys the Game? That was the situation we faced at the Delphi MC = server, and with not one but three PoIDs in the Long Game...} *Amend Rule 1.7.15 to change the cost of forging a PoID to 10 Black Tokens and no Silvers, and make it a 60-minute Action. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 626 - A Lot of Silly Old Buffers [Multiple] *Amendments to Rule 1.5.6: -Amend "but the previous station will be counted twice" to "and the previous station is counted once." Also, change "Finsbury Park" to = "Arsenal" in the given example. {Comment: A minor change, but the basis of what = comes next...} -Add, at the end of the Rule, the following paragraphs: "Beyond the end of the line at every Terminus Station are = considered to be buffers. A player whose LV is sufficiently high may Rebound off = them, as if e were rebounding off a Blocked Station situated one station = further on, with the Action of [Rebounding off Buffers at ] where = is the Terminus in question. Thus, a Player at South Kensington with an = LV of 7 could rebound off the buffers at Olympia to Sloane Square or = Bayswater, and with an LV of 6 to Notting Hill Gate or back to South Kensington. "The [Line Change] Action may not be played subsequently to the Rebound, either off a Block or off the Buffers." {Comments: Rebounding off the end of the line (like the Snakes and Ladders where you have to roll the exact amount on the dice to win or you bounce off and, if unlucky, land on the snake you thought you'd = missed...): also a good way to get rid of an annoying Shadower... bounce off, land up where you started and Shunt.} {Further comments: This is all here to set up a Ruttsborough amendments...} *Repeal: Rule 2.4.4 (Terminus Slingshot, Ruttsborough Ruleset) *Enactment: Crash Barrier (New Rule 2.4.4, Ruttsborough Ruleset) -If a Player is in a position to Rebound off the Buffers or a = Blocked Station, e may instead elect to use it as a crash barrier, with the = Action [Crash]. Upon doing this, e stops at the Terminus Station and reduces eir= LV to zero. The effects of a Crash are as follows: All Players in the same = Quadrant (including the Crashing Player emself) are affected by the Crash, and = must lose one Plastic Token if e has one (chosen by the Crashing Player and placed under normal Token placement rules, i.e. in a different quadrant = from the affected Players), one Hat if e has one (which is discarded: Crashing Player's choice from A-Z, British Rail, Compass, Terminus, Verdant) and = all Pigeons if e has any (also discarded.) Any player with the Money Belt = does not lose Tokens, any player who has played the [Hands on Hat] Action in = eir previous Turn does not lose a Hat, and possession of an Overpriced = Baguette will prevent the Pigeons being scared off and lost. Action: [Crash]. 10-minute Pre-Move. Cost: As above, plus 2 Red = Tokens for the Crashing Player. {Comments: This action appears to be a leveller - everybody loses Tokens, Pigeons and Hats, and it is the crashing player who loses all eir LV plus 2 Reds. However, e gets to choose where the Tokens go, and just watch those stacks build up... placing five or six tokens on stacks all = at once, and at own choice, is not to be sneezed at. A well-judged crash landing could net a couple of complete stacks in the process of sending tokens flying all = over the board, a badly-judged one hurts everybody and benefits nobody. As for the rest of the effects - ever heard of shockwaves? You can hang on to = your tokens and hats, and Pigeons will come back for the crumbs...} *Amendment to Rule 2.4.3: Rule 2.4.3 should now read: "All Actions in the standard Mornington Nomic Ruleset which have a cost in Red Tokens have that cost reduced by = one Red Token: if this reduces the cost to zero, then the Action may be performed during Knip. This reduction in cost does not apply to any = Actions which are only defined in this Special Ruleset. Also, expenditure of Black Tokens is permitted during Knip." {Comment: A slight change to the Rutts Knip rules - allowing all = Blue and Red Token actions is a bit much, especially as my main point in = putting this in originally was to allow Shunts and Wilds, at a time when they = both cost one red token... now Wilds cost a Black and Shunts are free in = Rutts. But the main point of this amendment is to make it clear that any Rutts-specific actions don't get the reduction that vanilla-rules actions get.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 627 - Shunting the Money Around [Multiple] Amend Rule 1.4.18: "Unique" to be added to the description of Money Belts in the Emporium. Amend Rule 1.10.1 *the paragraph describing Money Belts is to be amended to read: "If the Shunted Player possesses the Money Belt, no Tokens may be claimed during the Shunt. However, the Money Belt may be taken instead." {Comment: So if you want to protect your Tokens, you have to go and = get the Belt from the person currently protecting eir own... and it's now Unique, so you can't buy one if somebody else has one. As they stand, = Money Belts are a bit too powerful otherwise - being forever immune to losing Tokens is too great a bonus for a mere 5 Bronzes.} *The paragraph about shunting Token Stacks is to be amended to read: "Token Stacks may be shunted as if they were Players, with the following exceptions: there is no Token cost for Shunting a Stack, the Shunting Player may approach the Target Station along any Line, and does = not reduce eir LV after Shunting a Token Stack. If a Token Stack is Shunted = to a station containing another Token Stack, a Double Shunt must be performed, otherwise the single Shunt is invalid." *Rule 1.10.2: the final paragraph is to be amended to read: "For every Double, Triple or greater multiple of Shunt performed on = a Player (but not on a Token Stack), the Shunting Player gains 1 Silver Token." *Rule 1.4.7: one Amendment plus one Enactment. -Amend the final paragraph to read: The Suspect Package can be Shunted as if it were a Token Stack, but = may not be Dead-End Shunted. If one Suspect Package is Shunted into another, both are immediately detonated (at no extra cost to the Shunting Player) with effects as described in Rule 1.7.30, but all references to a two-station radius are taken to refer to a four-station radius instead. -Add the following paragraph afterwards (Enactment): If a Player is in a position to Shunt a Suspect Package, e may = Defuse it instead by moving to its location and playing the Action of [Defusing Package]. Upon doing this, eir LV is reduced to 0 but e gains 1 Silver Token, and the Package is removed from the Game. E may not do this if e = has placed a Suspect Package on the Board emself during eir last three Turns. Action: Defusing Package (10-minute Post-Move). Cost: 0. {Comments: This last one is a way of getting rid of Suspect Packages without exploding them... and I include the restriction to prevent people placing a Package one turn and defusing it the next turn for the bonus. Bombers don't usually try to defuse their own bombs.} *Rule 2.8.2: amend the final paragraph to read: Flags may be Shunted as if they were Token Stacks: but Flags may not= be Dead-End Shunted or destroyed in the explosion of a Suspect Package, nor shunted to Mornington Crescent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 628 - Carry on Clamping [Multiple] { This basically changes Clamps so that you need to share a Station (and Line) to put one on someone. Shunts are suitably adjusted to prevent you Clamping someone then Shunting them, and Shadowing tweaked in light of the amended Shunting. } 1. This Time It's Personal [Amendments] In Rules 1.4.26 (Freem), 1.4.27 (Narg), 1.7.4 (Spoon) and whichever = details the Green Clamp, replace "a Player with a Piece adjacent to the Actioning Player's Piece position" with "a Player who shares a Station and Line = with the Actioning Player". 2. Suspect Clamp [Amendment] Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.43 ("Line Velocity", starring = Keanu Reeves) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Velocity-Bombing ]", = where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. Upon performing this Action, the targetted Player gains a "Velocity Bomb (Dormant)" - an Indestructable Possession. { Bringing the structure in line with the other Clamps. } 3. Short Sharp Shunt [Amendment] Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.10.1 (A Shunting We Will Go):- If a Player, after eir Move, shares a Station with another Player, e may elect to Shunt that Player. This is achieved by performing the Action of "[Shunting to ]", where "" is an Opponent who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, and "" is the chosen Target Station. This Action may only be performed as the first Action of a Player's Post-Move Action Phase, and may only be performed if the Actioning Player has a Line Velocity greater than zero. For a Shunt to be legal, the following criteria must be met:- And remove the bullet point "The Shunted Player's Line Code...". { Slipped into the preceding section; "shares a Station and Line". } 4. The Speed of Darkness [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.25 (The Coming of Shadows), replace "A Player may not Shadow and Shunt a Player during the same Play." with "This Action may only be performed as the first Action of a Player's Post-Move Action Phase." -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 629 - Mornington Crescent Isn't Where The Start Is [Multiple] { Fixing that Opening-Move-Win thing. I've only bothered barring a direct MC start - being able to open at Closed or Damaged Stations doesn't = seem too powerful. } 1. Proving the Rule [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.3.2 (Home Isn't Where The Start Is) to:- When a Player performs the "[Home:]" Action, all Stations which share a Quadrant and Line with eir Home Station - with the exception of Mornington Crescent - become Valid Moves. 2. First-Time Buyer [Amendment] In Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves), replace the "First Turn" bullet point with:- * Declaring Home (Rule 1.12.4) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 630 - Exciting New Buzzwords [Multiple] { Mainly just rewording, trimming a lot of that which I consider = extraneous, and reshuffling the important bits elsewhere - the list of Exemptions = was a bit awkward, better combined with the other paragraphs than left as something to read afterwards. The most dramatic amendment here is the removal of Token penalties for illegal Moves; this aspect has always made me very uncomfortable, for = two reasons:- (1) It's not a fair penalty; having to discard Tokens will hit some Players harder than others. It may cripple a complicated strategy that needs just enough Tokens, or it may be shrugged off because the Player has a dozen Bronzes lying around. (2) If a Player makes two mistakes in a GSD, other Players may be tempted to Buzz one of them, wait for the replay, then Buzz the other. Buzzing becomes an offensive strategy rather than a way of keeping the game fair. I've replaced this - at least for the time being - by a requirement to put a carat ("^") symbol at the start of any Plays which are replacing Illegal Turns. Although minimal, I think it's probably enough of a stigma for Players to be careful, without it impacting unreasonably on the Game. Maybe you should lose some Points if you have more replayed Moves than unreplayed ones, at the end of a Game, but I'll leave that for now. Other impacts - the legality of a Move doesn't default to "Legal" if no Judges are available; the Game is put on hold instead. Such seems more reasonable, although it's unlikely we'll ever have to use it. Finally, the "Anti-Scamming" bit has been taken out, since it seems superfluous - if someone really does try to Buzz a Player for wearing flared trousers, or something, it'll just fall on its face at Judgment. If someone persistently Buzzes trivia just to stall the game, or if two Players start conspiring to wreck things, it'd just take an Emergency Proposal saying "Players X and Y should be removed from Game 18 and be sent to bed without any tea" to solve it. I hope we don't have to "have a word for" dealing with ungentlemanly conduct. } 1. Cat Had Stolen Batteries [Repeals] Repeal Rules 1.16.1-7 - those describing the current Rules for Buzzing. 2. One Good Turn [Enactment] A Turn may be Legal, Questionable, Illegal or Mistimed. Turns are Legal by default, until proven otherwise; if the = most-recently taken Turn is Legal, play may continue as normal. If the most recently-taken Turn is Questionable, play may not continue until the Turn has been established as Legal or Illegal. If any Turns are played which follow on from a Questionable Turn, those Turns are deemed Mistimed. If a Turn is Illegal or Mistimed, it is deemed never to have occurred, and play continues as normal. If a Turn is made to replace an Illegal Turn, its Play should be preceded by a "^" character. 3. Buzzing [Enactment] If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not = in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, and if no more = than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. Buzzing = is done by posting a message to the relevant Game Lounge, detailing the spotted illegality. When a Turn is Buzzed, it becomes a Questionable Turn. The Player who made a Buzz may at any time withdraw their Buzz; the Buzzed Turn becomes Legal again. 4. Questionable Turns [Enactment] If a Turn has become Questionable, the Player who made that Turn has thirty-six hours to either concede or contest the Buzz. If the Buzz is conceded, or if no contest is made within thirty-six hours, eir Turn becomes Illegal. If the Buzz is contested, the Buzzing Player has thirty-six hours to eir concede or contest this defence. If the defence is conceded, or if no contest is made within thirty-six hours, the Questionable Turn becomes Legal. If the defence is contested, the matter goes to Judgment. 5. Prepare to be Judged [Enactment] If a Buzz is taken to Judgment, the Speaker shall randomly select a Player from the set of Active Players, excluding the Buzzed and = Buzzing Player, to act as Referee. If this Player declines, or if e passes no Judgment within three days of being selected, another Referee should = be selected at random. If no Referee is available, the Game in question should be put on hold until a Referee is available. The chosen Referee should post a Judgment to the relevant Game Lounge, clearly stating whether e considers the Questionable Turn to be Legal or Illegal. Eir decision is binding. If the Judgment requires a Judge to clarify an ambiguity in a Rule, = the Speaker may immediately reword the Rule at issue, to reflect the = Judge's decision. 6. Correction [Enactment] Players are permitted to amend minor details of the GSD, if it has not been maintained properly. If any aspect of the Token Table or other information at the top of the GSD does not tally with the listed Plays (for example, if a Player has Eaten an Overpriced Baguette but not removed it from eir Inventory), the Player taking eir Turn may amend = the incorrect information. A Turn containing illegal correction may, of course, be Buzzed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 631 - Overeloquent Roadsigns [Rewrite] Reword Rule 2.4.1 (Fast and Furious) to:- Line Velocity has a maximum of fifteen, rather than ten. { The rest of this rule was extraneous. "Rather than ten" is kept for its friendliness. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 632 - Time Flies [Rewrite] { This one's a bit strangely worded, at present. } Reword Rule 1.13.2 (Get a Move On) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Game Time: +0x00]" to advance = Game Time by 'x' hours. Upon performing this Action, Game Time is = immediately advanced, and the Actioning Player's Turn is extended in duration by = the same number of hours. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 633 - Bear Faced Cheek [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.9.4 (Fish and Fowl) by rewording "Who's A Clever Bear?" as follows: "Awarded to a Player who has played a particularly clever or cheeky move sequence in the past Week, as nominated by another Player in the same = Game. The Player shall receive a bonus +3 Kudos points." { Comment: I don't think the Speaker is watching and could do with a bit of a = prod. } { Speaker's Comment: The Proposer is correct - there are too many Games for me to keep track= of properly - nominations for interesting Moves would be helpful. } Also, reword the first sentence of the first paragraph thus: "Each Nomic Week, on completion of Voting, the Speaker may give out discretionary bonus Kudos Awards, as specified by this Rule." { Comment: Not all the bonuses are for Proposals any more, so mentioning them explicitly is wrong. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 2 22:42:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8897 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 06:42:23 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 06:42:23 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10I5M4-0000YB-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:42:05 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 06:35:06 GMT Message-ID: <36ded72f.398614@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 42 Week End Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies for the slight delay in issuing the Week End gubbins - I = started leter than usual, and then it got past midnight and I had to sleep. Perhaps more germane is that the ruleset edits are not complete - Day of = Action has not been entirely implemented yet, since although I've added the = "Gain" column specified there is no information in it. This omission is noted in= the rulset, and will be rectified over the next few days. Play on! Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 2 22:51:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12890 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 06:51:41 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 06:51:41 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA02557; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:51:21 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002485; Wed, 3 Mar 99 16:51:14 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:51:14 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EF8@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:51:12 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Week 42 Week End Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:35 PM, duncan@l... [SMTP:duncan@l...] wrote: > Perhaps more germane is that the ruleset edits are not complete - Day of > Action has not been entirely implemented yet, since although I've added the > "Gain" column specified there is no information in it. This omission is noted in > the rulset, and will be rectified over the next few days. By the way, does the HTML ruleset still get updated? Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNtxPQctA22MsBS7iEQI/cACcDol7g6ybYElDnB8eE6bIROlgFrwAoIKv vccXx0H3jD6ZrKNm8CHdK8Go =2qMQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 2 22:54:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14243 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 06:53:43 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 06:53:43 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA03397; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:53:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003234; Wed, 3 Mar 99 16:53:04 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:53:03 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428EF9@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:53:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 43 - Voting Results for Year 2, Week 42 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > 612 The More Targets the Merrier 2 1 2 3 Fails > 614 Extend in Need 1 1 3 3 Fails Can I ask - do people think these are just a Bad Thing, or was it simply that they weren't well implemented? Thanks, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 2 23:26:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26527 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 07:26:05 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 07:26:05 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.55] (dhcp9544055.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.55] (may be forged)) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA15924 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:25:47 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:28:10 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: MN-G: Call for Judgment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >RiffRaff is nominated as Judge. E should consult Rule 1.16.3 for details of >eir duties. Ahem. Hear ye, hear ye: Firstly, Rule 2.3.2 (Home Isn't Where the Start is) directly conflicts with Rule 1.5.0 sub 6 (the 'First Turn' section in the Move Validity checklist); Since 2.3.2 is part of a special ruleset, it takes precedence, and effectly replaces 1.5.0 sub 6. Validity is checked thusly: 1. Closed Lines and Stations: MC is Closed, and thus Invalid. 2. Rule 2.3.2 - (Home Isn't Where The Start Is) "A player need not play eir first move at eir Home Station, provided eir first move is in the same Quadrant and on the same Line." All this says is that you can play a station other than your Home Station, within certain restrictions. It does not state that all Stations that meet those restrictions are necessarily Valid, however. All diamonds are valuable; not all valuable things are diamonds. In other words, you don't have to play your Home station as your first Move, but you _do_ have to play a _legal_ Station. MC is still Invalid, because it is Closed, as is this case. [bangs gavel] --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 3 05:15:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9631 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 09:38:59 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 09:38:59 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA17703 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:38:40 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 09:38:40 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA15999; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:38:39 GMT Message-Id: <199903030938.JAA15999@uksn82> Date: 03 Mar 99 09:33:15 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-80-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 03-Mar-99 06:51 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Week 42 Week End Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > By the way, does the HTML ruleset still get updated? Not at the moment, no. I haven't been able to run the QBasic program which Kevan used, and a plan to convert that program to Perl (which I can run) has= stalled. I haven't forgotten about it though. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 3 05:37:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11629 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 11:16:32 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 11:16:32 -0000 Received: from modem-15.ibogaine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.72.143] helo=my) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10I9dM-00064b-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:16:13 +0000 Message-ID: <002101be6567$e0310b60$8f48883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:51:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 43 - Voting Results for Year 2, Week 42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 612 The More Targets the Merrier 2 1 2 3 Fails >> 614 Extend in Need 1 1 3 3 Fails > >Can I ask - do people think these are just a Bad Thing, or was it simply >that they weren't well implemented? Bad Thing, to these retinae - it seems too much of a strange and counter-intuitive abstraction, and has too much of an impact on all the rules that require proximity. Some sort of distanced attack might be worthwhile (I've long considered a "gun" that can only fire along straight sections of track), but sweepingly making a huge number of Actions long-distance seems a little too daunting. Might I ask the same of the Midas Clamp? Mere poor costing, or was the basic idea too terrifying for some of you? (I've been tempted to add a clause to the voting, saying that Players must give a few-word summary of their reasoning, for every Proposal they vote against... It's useful feedback, and is likely to make people reflect a little more.) Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 3 05:37:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11705 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 11:16:36 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 11:16:36 -0000 Received: from modem-15.ibogaine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.72.143] helo=my) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10I9dR-00064b-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:16:18 +0000 Message-ID: <002301be6567$e35e5680$8f48883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:11:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: MN-G: Call for Judgment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ahem. Hear ye, hear ye: > >Firstly, Rule 2.3.2 (Home Isn't Where the Start is) directly conflicts with >Rule 1.5.0 sub 6 (the 'First Turn' section in the Move Validity checklist); >Since 2.3.2 is part of a special ruleset, it takes precedence, and effectly >replaces 1.5.0 sub 6. Direct replacement is only really a reasonable thing to do if both paragraphs are worded in a similar way; in this case, the two were written by different authors in different contexts (I've a feeling that the Finsbury Option predates the new Valid Move business), so it's fairly meaningless to interchange them. If the Finsbury thing had been worded in accordance with the relevant bit of the main ruleset, it would have said something like "all Stations sharing a Quadrant and Line become Valid Moves", and this would have been much more clear-cut. An arguable enough Judgment; since I was going to replay anyway, I'll respect it rather than challenging and delaying things even further. It's a fair cop, Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 3 18:58:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24489 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 14:21:18 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 14:21:18 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA26273 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:20:59 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 14:20:59 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA29781; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:20:58 GMT Message-Id: <199903031420.OAA29781@uksn82> Date: 03 Mar 99 14:17:39 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-78-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 03-Mar-99 06:31 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 43 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Proposals for Week 43 included: >Proposal 621 - Keep the balance right. [Amendment] >Reword the second paragraph in Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos) to read: >At the start of each Week, the lowest Kudos score of all Active Players at >the end of the previous Week is determined. This lowest score is subtracted >from each Player's Kudos score of the previous Week and given to em as eir >starting Kudos for this Week. Kudos then gets added to or subtracted from >this score from the current Weeks' events. If a Player is Inactive at the >end of the Week, no changes shall be made to eir Kudos. Interesting approach - I suppose it permits a more direct comparison between= Player activity with a stronger component of more distant history. I think the real weakness is that if we have any Players who are technically= Active but who don't really participate in the Nomic side, then there'll consistently be no adjustment to make. That's not to say that the existing scheme doesn't have weaknesses, but I think it's primary benefit remains: that it is basically a measure of recent= activity. >Proposal 622 - Reintermination [Action] >[Terminus Collect] - duration 20 minutes, no cost. >If eir Move ends at a Terminus (i.e. eir Move ended at a Terminus on the >line they moved along during that Move), a Player may play a Terminus >Collect Action. This Action may not be played twice on the same Terminus, >and the Move must include movement on the Line Segment which the Station >Terminates. Thus, [Wild] movement or other Actions which move a piece >directly to its destination cannot be used in the same Play as a Terminus >Collect Action. >Upon successful completion of the Terminus Collect, the Player receives one= >Silver Token. >{Basically a rework of the Terminus Running, with a couple of slightly more= >friendly ideas: >* It's a post-move action that directly prevents people wilding in. >* It's cost is lower, and the implicit trip to Bank to convert to a Gold >makes the player easier to target. >* It's got a better definition of the fact that the move actually terminates >at that station on that line. >Hopefully people will find this a bit more playable.} Better, I think, particularly the Silver rather than Gold reward. A question, though - > This Action may not be played twice on the same Terminus This statement needs to be scoped - does it apply to a Player, to the whole Game, within a Turn, or even across the whole MN space? >Proposal 624 - We're Bound for Botany Bay (not quite) Splendid stuff. There are a couple of things missing though: no Circle Line equivalent is given, and the role of Charge isn't specified. Apart from that, it looks very fine. >Proposal 626 - A Lot of Silly Old Buffers [Multiple] Very interesting - I do like the effects of the Crash Action. A couple of questions, though: > *Amendments to Rule 1.5.6: > -Amend "but the previous station will be counted twice" to "and the >previous station is counted once." Also, change "Finsbury Park" to "Arsenal" >in the given example. {Comment: A minor change, but the basis of what comes= >next...} Why? I don't see what effect this has on anything, really. > [...] Thus, a Player at South Kensington with an LV >of 7 could rebound off the buffers at Olympia to Sloane Square or Bayswater, >and with an LV of 6 to Notting Hill Gate or back to South Kensington. That directly contradicts the opening statement in the first paragraph of the existing Rule: "If a Player attempts to Move along a line segment that contains a Blocked Station, that Player will rebound off the Station and return the way e came to the extent of eir line velocity." In other words, the Rebounding Player has no choice about where to Rebound to beyond that which they can exercise by varying eir LV. The rest of it rather nice, though. One final comment: > Rule 2.4.3 should now read: "All Actions in the standard Mornington >Nomic Ruleset which have a cost in Red Tokens have that cost reduced by one= >Red Token: if this reduces the cost to zero, then the Action may be >performed during Knip. This reduction in cost does not apply to any Actions= >which are only defined in this Special Ruleset. This could perhaps be better expressed as "any non-Ruttsborough Ruleset" (since we can combine Special Rulesets where they don't conflict) but >Proposal 627 - Shunting the Money Around [Multiple] All good stuff. >Proposal 628 - Carry on Clamping [Multiple] Very sensible. However, would we be better off generalising Clamps slightly so that we don't need explicit references to the specific Clamp instances in the Rule? I'm thinking that had the Midas Clamp passed it would immediately have= introduced an inconsistency, and even now any new Clamps would need to update this Rule to mention themselves. >Proposal 629 - Mornington Crescent Isn't Where The Start Is [Multiple] Hurrah! >Proposal 630 - Exciting New Buzzwords [Multiple] Very clean. > (2) If a Player makes two mistakes in a GSD, other Players may be > tempted to Buzz one of them, wait for the replay, then Buzz the > other. Buzzing becomes an offensive strategy rather than a way > of keeping the game fair. Having been the recent victim (albeit, I am sure, accidental) of such a circumstance I can only applaud this. >1. Cat Had Stolen Batteries [Repeals] >Repeal Rules 1.16.1-7 - those describing the current Rules for Buzzing. Not relevant to this Proposal particularly, but just a general observation: the Kudos bonus for Repeal seems a little inappropriate when the Rules are immediately replaced by something else. Hmmm. >Proposal 631 - Overeloquent Roadsigns [Rewrite] Quite so. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 3 19:02:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29508 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Mar 1999 14:30:55 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 14:30:55 -0000 Received: from modem-79.radium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.43.207] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ICfS-0005jE-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:30:36 +0000 Message-ID: <000201be6583$07be8480$cf2b883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:40:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Week 42 Week End Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> By the way, does the HTML ruleset still get updated? > >Not at the moment, no. I haven't been able to run the QBasic program which >Kevan used, and a plan to convert that program to Perl (which I can run) has >stalled. I would run it on the computer I'm using here, but QBasic was deleted by someone clearing off "useless" things a few months ago, so I can't. If anyone's got the interpreter on their machine, you should be able to grab the horrendously illegible sourcecode from http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/mornomic.bas - it'll also need the index text ("index.txt") from the same directory. I think that's where I put it. Still. The code will need tweaking to point to your copy of the Ruleset, but it should just about work. Still rather messy; I was slowly reformatting the text Ruleset so that it would be legible to the convertor, but it was getting rather grim work. I was going to write a shiny new convertor in C++, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe I'll turn an eye to it over the next week or two. >I haven't forgotten about it though. I had. Tsk. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 3 23:07:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3765 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Mar 1999 01:35:21 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 01:35:21 -0000 Received: from modem-59.medroxyprogest.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.61.59] helo=franz-liszt) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10IMcu-00073F-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:08:36 +0000 Message-ID: <002501be65e0$5e233d40$3b3d883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:09:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Week 43 Proposals: Comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 621 - Keep the balance right. [Amendment] This proposal included the following: >This lowest score is subtracted >from each Player's Kudos score of the previous Week and given to em as eir >starting Kudos for this Week. What do you mean? This is badly worded. I suspect the writer means - "This lowest score is subtracted and the _remainder_ given as eir starting Kudos for this week" (so the lowest scorer of the previous week starts at 0 again.) This is, IMHO, very BAD NEWS. It removes the current weighting towards more recent results in the Kudos stakes: the idea of every player's Kudos being halved each week was put in for precisely that purpose, so that as you went further back into the past the results became less important (last week's score is halved, the week before is quartered, etc.) Subtracting the same amount (i.e. the lowest player's Kudos score) from every player instead may keep the scores down, but by removing the halving element one is taking just as much weight from old results as new ones, with the result that it is impossible for new players ever to gain ground on the older players who will have a built-in and unfair advantage in the Kudos stakes. An alternative reading of the above (which, as I mentioned, is badly worded) is that (2)the said lowest total is considered to be the starting Kudos for the week. This, too, has its problems, because it takes *no* account of previous weeks: if the starting point for every Player is the same, then you might as well start from zero rather than from some arbitrary point based on last week's least popular proposer. The status quo is preferable in both cases: it does not penalise new players unfairly in doing so, as (1) does, because of the emphasis on recent results - but at the same time, a run of accepted Proposals is actually worth something, where it is not in (2). >Proposal 622 - Reintermination [Action] Better than the original Token Running. Half the gain in twice the time, and with the intention that you have to reach the Terminus along the Line. I'd still prefer it if one had to leave the way one arrived as well (as per the original Token Running - I think it should be that both the move to and the move from the Terminus in question should be forced to remain on the same Line as if Gapminding, then the difficulty would actually mean something.) >Proposal 623 - Lack of Interest Declared [Resignation] I can't really comment, but fair enough. >Proposal 624 - We're Bound for Botany Bay (not quite) >A new Turin '57 subset for the city of Sydney. The URL of the map in >question is: >http://people.enternet.com.au/~cbrnbill/maps/sydney.htm > >Goal: Macdonaldtown (an almost completely disused station...) >Bank: Town Hall >Loop: Rooty Hill Great idea. Another one to join Chateau d'Eau. Only comment I have is, last time we played Sydney MC at York, the winning station was Milson's Point, and I think we have a tradition to maintain... And where was the loop station when we played it then? >There are no zones shown on the map; therefore all Rules relating to Zones >are ignored. Players shall gain a single Bronze Token on eir Turn. I suggest that this should be "gain a single Bronze Token for playing a valid non-Pass Move." I am of the opinion that merely Passing in a Station for which the Zone Pass is held should not qualify for the Bronze Token, one has to actually move to a different location (whether by a Post-Move Action or by the actual Move.) >Central Station is the Median of the map, and the Quadrants are superimposed >on the Sydney system in the same way as they exist in the London >Underground. >All Interchanges are to be considered the equivalent of British Rail >stations for the purposes of the Emporium. All other Rules relating to >British Rail stations shall be ignored. >Hats are claimable as normal. But what about the British Rail Hat, needed to complete the set of five Hats? Is there to be an Interchange Hat to replace it? This needs to be worked out. But a great proposal anyway. >Proposal 631 - Overeloquent Roadsigns [Rewrite] >Reword Rule 2.4.1 (Fast and Furious) to:- > Line Velocity has a maximum of fifteen, rather than ten. The rest of the Rule may not be entirely extraneous: when I originally submitted Rutts, it was possible to alter LV by up to 5 points each turn. (Hence the Shunting loss of 6 points: one doesn't have to stop completely, but you lose more than you can gain the following turn.) Can somebody tell me when this was changed, or is this a typo in the Ruleset? Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 4 01:07:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10490 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Mar 1999 09:07:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 09:07:07 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA15982 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:06:49 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 09:06:49 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA11238; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:06:48 GMT Message-Id: <199903040906.JAA11238@uksn82> Date: 04 Mar 99 09:03:15 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Rushton and Cryer Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies to those waiting for my Moves in Games 12 and 15 - eGroups is rejecting my postings from work at the moment. I shall mail my GSDs from home this evening. Sorry. In terms of timing, I think I'm just about legal in Game 12 but if Kevan wants to Move urgently in Game 15 I can hardly object. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 4 02:30:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6888 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Mar 1999 10:29:40 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 10:29:40 -0000 Received: from modem-81.maxipime.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.78.81] helo=my) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10IV6X-0002av-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:11:50 +0000 Message-ID: <007201be662a$79a26ce0$514e883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:28:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 43 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 621 - Keep the balance right. [Amendment] As has been commented; uncomfortably worded, and fairly meaningless in that it does nothing to cut down any huge gaps between lowest and highest Kudos, merely offsetting them. I think the current system's fine, really. >Proposal 622 - Reintermination [Action] An interesting reappraisal, but it strikes me as a little superfluous when you can get a Silver by simply Moving to a large Interchange, or passing through a reasonable number of the things. I'm not sure I'd want to carefully meander to some distant Terminus, when I could just zip around Zone 1 and get two Silvers a Turn. >Proposal 623 - Lack of Interest Declared [Resignation] > >Julie shall be forced to Resign. As I think I've probably said, the dear one gave up on her Internet access when she moved house the other month, and has no intention of regaining it. >Proposal 624 - We're Bound for Botany Bay (not quite) "Macdonaldtown" doesn't have too much of a ring to it, and others have mentioned the neglections, but this otherwise seems a welcome addition. I look forward to the first game we play abroad. And muse about trying to get hold of one of the Tube-style route-maps that they have on the side of Brighton buses. Or scanning in the cover of some brain-science book we've got, that has various nodes of the brain shown as Tube stations, on the cover. ("Associative Visual Cortex [Shunting Dunx to Prefrontal Cortex]". Hmm.) >All other Rules relating to British Rail stations shall be ignored. Velocity Bombs suddenly become very, very nasty, then. I think "Interchanges count as BR Stations" is probably better all round, even if it means having Interchange Hats. >Proposal 625 - Infinite Darkness... [Amendment] Absolutely lovely, particularly the "hours of darkness" bit, but the wording seems a touch suspect - you need to Forge twice to create a PoID, but you gain a PoID when you perform the Action. It's not clear whether you have to do both Actions at night, either, really - if you *do*, it'll be incredibly easy to disrupt a Forging by slipping the clock forward an hour or two (depending on the number of Players; more than six and it becomes impossible anyway, since the Round is over before dawn). And suddenly having to pay ten Blacks for a PoID seems a rather drastic extra measure (although a little pleasing in its combination with the Morden Paradox; Crescent's "Dark Ritual"...) The amended implementation of the PoID seems better, though, I must say; it's more intuitive that it should have the same effect on a single Player when carried as it does on all Players when dropped. It'd probably be easier to say that "If the PoID is situated at a Station, all Players behave as if they are carrying the PoID", really. The bit about it causing hideous damage when dropped at MC is particularly excellent, anyway; the destruction seems far more fitting than the original loss of acceleration. Probably just destructive enough, as well - although it's possible to collect a couple of Tokens each Turn to sacrifice to the PoID, it means going out of your way to do so. Good stuff. (Two minor semantic quibbles, incidentally - "losing 2 points of LV per Turn" is quite different from "having a total adjustment of +1 to -5", since the Player may choose not to perform an "[LV+X]" Action. And when you say "All Token Stacks lose 1 Token each time the Player who Double-Shunted the PoID to MC takes a Turn.", which Token is lost?) >Proposal 626 - A Lot of Silly Old Buffers [Multiple] Reasonable enough, I suppose. I'm not sure how much use it'll see, though; to pick up the analogy - if I was playing Snakes and Ladders, but could adjust my "LV" each Turn, I'd probably not have a problem getting where I need to go. Rebounding's only been used, to my knowledge, very rarely, but it's been ingenious enough when it has, I suppose. > "The [Line Change] Action may not be played subsequently to the >Rebound, either off a Block or off the Buffers." Superfluous, since you can't perform mid-Move Actions any more. > The effects of a Crash are as follows: Excellence. > Also, expenditure of Black Tokens is permitted during Knip." This seems a bit out of the blue. "[Line Change]" is permitted during Knip anyway - I thought disallowing things like Wilding and Removing Bulkheads was much the point of the thing. >Proposal 627 - Shunting the Money Around [Multiple] > >"If the Shunted Player possesses the Money Belt, no Tokens may be >claimed during the Shunt. However, the Money Belt may be taken >instead." Hideously, painfully counter-intuitive, but also an incredibly reasonable way of doing things. Hmm. Maybe it should be renamed to "Token Guard" or something? Making it Unique renders it all rather unfair, though - Players should be allowed to purchase Belts regardless, even if this does mean that the richer among us can invest in more than one. > "Token Stacks may be shunted as if they were Players, with the >following exceptions: there is no Token cost for Shunting a Stack, the >Shunting Player may approach the Target Station along any Line, and does not >reduce eir LV after Shunting a Token Stack. If a Token Stack is Shunted to a >station containing another Token Stack, a Double Shunt must be performed, >otherwise the single Shunt is invalid." Rather an odd thing to amend along with the Money Belt, but this seems like a clever and useful implementation. > If a Player is in a position to Shunt a Suspect Package, e may Defuse >it instead by moving to its location and playing the Action of [Defusing >Package]. Upon doing this, eir LV is reduced to 0 but e gains 1 Silver >Token, and the Package is removed from the Game. E may not do this if e >has >placed a Suspect Package on the Board emself during eir last three Turns. Oh, nice idea. Tanglishly worded (should I really have to go and check other rules to see if I'm in "a position to Shunt"?), but it seems an obvious thing to include. The clause about defusing your own Bombs seems a little clumsy, however - I think it'd be better if there was simply no Token prize for the act - a good deed is, after all, its own reward, and is likely to be done to save your own skin anyway. > Flags may be Shunted as if they were Token Stacks: but Flags may >not be Dead-End Shunted or destroyed in the explosion of a Suspect >Package, nor shunted to Mornington Crescent. Well, Dead-End Shunting a Flag has no particular effect anyway, and won't be destroyed by default in an explosion. And I quite like the idea of hiding your own Flag at the Crescent, as a tactic - awkward to resolve, but awkward to achieve. This amendment also removes the explanation that a Shunted Flag is referred to as "Flag (T)", carelessly. An incredibly sweeping and unconnected Proposal, really, that one. Some very good bits, which I'd certainly vote for in isolation, but some very questionable elements as well. Hmm. Responding to others' comments:- >[Dunx on Clamps:] >Very sensible. However, would we be better off generalising Clamps slightly >so that we don't need explicit references to the specific Clamp instances in >the Rule? I'm thinking that had the Midas Clamp passed it would immediately >have introduced an inconsistency, and even now any new Clamps would need >to update this Rule to mention themselves. A wise idea, yes, with "Velocity-Bombs count as Clamps", and whatever. >Not relevant to this Proposal particularly, but just a general observation: >the Kudos bonus for Repeal seems a little inappropriate when the Rules are >immediately replaced by something else. Hmmm. It does, yes. I nearly proposed a "Sorcery" Proposal type, the other Week, that gave a mere one-off effect, rather than using the usual "Enact this Rule, do something and then Repeal it" approach. Repeal-and-replace is just as unbalanced, really. Probably best to do away with it entirely; I don't think we need to urge people to repeal dubious rules, any more. >[Jonathan on Speed:] >The rest of the Rule may not be entirely extraneous: when I >originally submitted Rutts, it was possible to alter LV by up to 5 >points each turn. It's always been three, I think. 10LV in two turns would have made for some ridiculous games. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 4 11:41:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18176 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Mar 1999 19:16:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 19:16:23 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA25099 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:16:05 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 19:16:04 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA20855; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:16:04 GMT Message-Id: <199903041916.TAA20855@uksn82> Date: 04 Mar 99 19:12:36 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game 16 Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two options have been mooted for Game 16 (to be played in the Brooke-Taylor Lounge): a) Chateau d'Eau b) Ruttsborough Team Game Opinions please. For myself, I'd probably tend towards option (a), simply to allow a bit of play on a different map. Option (b) has the benefit of being both the first opportunity to combine rulesets, and only the second team game put forward. Whichever one doesn't get played now will pop into the next free slot (probably Game 12 at a rough guess, unless my brutality towards RiffRaff yields results) unless there are objections. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 4 12:25:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6395 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Mar 1999 19:51:23 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 19:51:23 -0000 Received: from modem-69.isotretinoin.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.74.69] helo=my) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Ie97-0008O8-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:51:01 +0000 Message-ID: <001801be6678$f59f0260$454a883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:55:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Game 16 Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Two options have been mooted for Game 16 (to be played in the Brooke-Taylor >Lounge): > >a) Chateau d'Eau >b) Ruttsborough Team Game > >Opinions please. Chateau d'Eau for me, please. Although the latter is very tempting, I'd rather try out something entirely new. Certainly a Ruttsborough Team Game (or maybe Ruttsborough Capture the Flag?) for the next free slot, anyway. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sun Mar 7 22:40:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21561 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Mar 1999 06:39:48 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 06:39:48 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA03732; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:39:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003654; Mon, 8 Mar 99 16:39:11 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:39:10 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F10@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:39:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Dollis Hill Loops Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevan's recent move in the Ruttsborough game has brought the whole miserable wording of the Dollis Hill loop back into the spotlight. The issues I have are: * Is the Player's Piece moved to Dollis Hill (explicitly or implicitly?) * When the Player plays the [Dollis Escape] action, what are the Valid stations for his move? * Am I the only one whose mind wilts at the current DH rules? Ta, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNuLj7ctA22MsBS7iEQLWuACeKIX7qIouRkAvWmguLt8uzO8FAmUAoKsS ulJED0BzGbYP5vmIeDqc2FaR =pT5m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sun Mar 7 23:24:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3653 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Mar 1999 07:23:56 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 07:23:56 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA15721; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:23:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa15691; Mon, 8 Mar 99 17:23:29 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:23:28 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F15@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:23:27 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 43 - Voting Results for Year 2, Week 42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, March 03, 1999 7:51 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > Bad Thing, to these retinae - it seems too much of a strange and > counter-intuitive abstraction, and has too much of an impact on all the > rules that require proximity. Some sort of distanced attack might be > worthwhile (I've long considered a "gun" that can only fire along > straight sections of track), but sweepingly making a huge number of Actions > long-distance seems a little too daunting. I don't know about that. I personally think the costing, especially in the second draft, was much steeper. For a start, you could always hide around junctions in the track if afraid of being Extend-attacked. Secondly, the cost of hitting someone gets progressively larger as they get further away, fairly quickly - you know, after all, who is going to be more of a threat, even in this scenario. Thirdly, the effect of extending actions was not dissimilar to the abilities of a player with a good setup - with an LV of ten you can hit a lot of targets, and with more tokens you can often hit things with straddles, striles, compass wormholes, and all sorts of other deviousness. So why, if we allow this sort of thing, is it so difficult for people to grasp the idea of extending the range of an action. Personally, I don't think of the IMCS rules being quite as limited as we do. Some actions require adjacency, some require colocation, some require just having passed through, some don't care at all. There are good reasons for some of those, but sometimes I think it's been a bit arbitrary. I think the IMCS would have you able to choose how far from you the target was, and a costing scale being brought into play when choosing targets further from you. How about this for a proposal: *** Actions may have a Target Class (from 1 to 7), which defines the location of the Target with respect to the Player performing the Action. Each Target Class includes all Target Classes with numbers lower than it (i.e. Target Class 2 allows the Target to be adjacent to and at the same location as the Player). Target Classes have the following meanings: * Class 1 requires colocation of the Target. * Class 2 requires adjacency of the Target. * Class 3 requires the Target to be at any Station which the Player's Piece has passed through during that Move. * Class 4 requires the Target to be on the same Line as the Player's Piece, excluding on Line Segments that are unreachable without either changing Line Direction or Line. * Class 5 requires the Target to be in the same Zone. * Class 6 requires the Target to be in the same Quadrant. * Class 7 allows the Target to be anywhere. Players may Boost the Target Class of an Action to increase the Target Class of that particular Action. The cost of the Boost is equal to the factorial of the number of extra Classes by which the Player wants to Boost the Action, plus one, in Red and Blue Tokens. (The factorial of a number is the multiple of all numbers between one and that number - i.e. the factorial of 5 is 5*4*3*2*1, or 120.) For instance, to Boost an action by one Target Class, two Red tokens and two Blue tokens must be paid; to Boost an action by three Target Classes would require 24 Red and 24 Blue Tokens. This cost is paid in addition to the cost of the Action itself. *** The factorial cost is just an idea - rather steep, but this may be to some people's liking. Each Action would merely need to specify which Target Class it was; targetless Actions (such as [Gold to Blue]) wouldn't require a TC. The point here is that this allows a lot more freedom of action, at a suitable cost. It's always going to be cheaper to go there directly and do it, but the above proposal has three important effects: 1) It means that the more general TCs imply the more specific, which (I feel) makes a lot of sense. 2) It standardises the way you choose targets, and moves more information about the Action into the Actions Table of 1.7.2, which should also make a fair bit of sense. 3) It allows you to choose a more distant target by paying a cost, which I also feel makes a lot of sense. But anyway, I think you get the idea now. > Might I ask the same of the Midas Clamp? Mere poor costing, or was the > basic idea too terrifying for some of you? I think I voted 'For' that one... Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNuLuUctA22MsBS7iEQJhowCg0Y+EUv9kdsfaOwKXwBi5mKir5pgAoKyd R3AgxeK5lMvZ60nf/mPjIQ7S =rTvB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 00:43:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1912 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Mar 1999 08:42:53 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 08:42:53 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26752 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:42:33 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 08:42:32 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA23846; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:42:32 GMT Message-Id: <199903080842.IAA23846@uksn82> Date: 08 Mar 99 08:38:28 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States w/c 8/3/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Probably time for one of these again, although I suspect Paul's recent flurry has made me the next mover in many games. Ho hum. Game List Rules To Play Last Move ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long Kevan 8-March-1999 05:52 12 MN-C Vanilla RiffRaff 8-March-1999 06:48 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 4-March-1999 19:02 15 MN-R Rutts Dunx 8-March-1999 06:39 16 MN-B pending a decision on what to play So, more spread around than I'd expected. Play on! -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 06:33:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3332 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Mar 1999 14:33:02 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 14:33:02 -0000 Received: from modem-59.isotretinoin.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.74.59] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10K15F-0006V4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:32:41 +0000 Message-ID: <001d01be6971$249de0e0$3b4a883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:36:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill Loops Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Kevan's recent move in the Ruttsborough game has brought the whole >miserable wording of the Dollis Hill loop back into the spotlight. Miserable? Hmm? Let's quote the Rule, so we can see what we're dealing with:- Rule 1.8.1 - Dollis Hill Loop If the previous non-Pass Move in a Game is "Dollis Hill", Dollis Hill is a Valid Move. In addition, all Stations other than Dollis Hill are Invalid Move destinations, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis Escape]" Action this Turn. A "[Dollis Escape]" Action may only be performed if the Actioning Player has an LV of 10 or more. >The issues I have are: > >* Is the Player's Piece moved to Dollis Hill (explicitly or implicitly?) Not as such; the Player's Piece *must move* to Dollis Hill, if it moves at all. If a DH Loop is in effect, the only Valid Moves are "Pass" and "Dollis Hill", so you have to make your choice from those. >* When the Player plays the [Dollis Escape] action, what are the Valid >stations for his move? Anything that would be valid were the Loop not in effect; it's effectively the same as a Sidestep, except that it requires an LV of 10, and doesn't cost anything. There is one (presumably) glaring mistake in the "[Dollis Escape]" Action, actually - that you don't need to actually be at Dollis Hill to perform it. I'd always envisioned the Escape as being a steady build up of LV at the Hill itself, until you'd gotten enough to break free; not a mere "if you're going fast enough you don't even have to go to Dollis Hill in the first place" thing. Worth fixing, or am I the only person who thinks this? Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 07:00:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18713 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Mar 1999 14:59:37 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 14:59:37 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA18819 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:59:15 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 8 Mar 1999 14:59:15 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA04443; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:59:15 GMT Message-Id: <199903081459.OAA04443@uksn82> Date: 08 Mar 99 14:58:13 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-93-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 08-Mar-99 14:36 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill Loops Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan wrote: > There is one (presumably) glaring mistake in the "[Dollis Escape]" > Action, actually - that you don't need to actually be at Dollis Hill > to perform it. I'd always envisioned the Escape as being a steady > build up of LV at the Hill itself, until you'd gotten enough to break > free; not a mere "if you're going fast enough you don't even have to > go to Dollis Hill in the first place" thing. Worth fixing, or am I the > only person who thinks this? My view is that the only thing wrong with Dollis Escape is the name: the term "escape" implies (as you suggest) that you should be at DH in order to perform it. However, I can see no reason why an escape whose condition is an LV of 10+ should be any less valid because it's been performed whilst not actually at DH - escape velocity is escape velocity, after all. I think a more self-consistent fix would be to fold the Escape into Dollis Sidestep with the token cost only applying when LV is too low, much as has already been done with Opening MC. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 16:34:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29462 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 00:24:30 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 00:24:30 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA04188; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:24:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma004171; Tue, 9 Mar 99 10:24:02 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:24:01 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F1D@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:24:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Votes for Year 2, Week 43 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Better vote, eh? Proposal 621 - Pass Proposal 622 - Pass Proposal 623 - For Proposal 624 - Pass Proposal 625 - For (somewhat dubiously) Proposal 626 - For Proposal 627 - Against Proposal 628 - For Proposal 629 - For Proposal 630 - For Proposal 631 - For Proposal 632 - For Proposal 633 - For Hmmm. Where am I up to with Proposals? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNuPdgctA22MsBS7iEQL8UACff3fB2kS05lw0QEc+4k+0pE5HauAAnRPm MXFNtLfcTCkE0WyBuuyYD3XM =q5Ur -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 17:25:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26530 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 01:19:18 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 01:19:18 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA25462; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:18:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma025348; Tue, 9 Mar 99 11:18:46 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:18:45 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F1E@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:18:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Votes for Year 2, Week 43 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, March 09, 1999 10:24 AM, Wayper, Paul [SMTP:WayperP@p...] wrote: > > *** PGP Signature Status: good > *** Signer: Paul J. Wayper (DPI) > *** Signed: 09/03/1999 10:24:00 > *** Verified: 09/03/1999 11:17:56 > *** BEGIN PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > > Better vote, eh? Pooh sticks. Forgot to redirect it. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 21:06:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19419 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 05:05:15 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 05:05:15 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA07469; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:04:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma007409; Tue, 9 Mar 99 15:04:42 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:04:41 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F22@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:04:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill Loops Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:36 AM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > If the previous non-Pass Move in a Game is "Dollis Hill", Dollis Hill > is a Valid Move. In addition, all Stations other than Dollis Hill are > Invalid Move destinations, unless the Player taking eir Turn has > performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis Escape]" Action this Turn. My point here is that 'Valid Move' does not give you any information about where the player's Piece ends up doing. * If it performs a Move to get to DH, then (theoretically) it would have to obey 1.5.0, and specifically the way would have to be clear for that Move to still be Valid. This would leave most people in a Paradox. * If it directly moves the Piece to DH, then it should state this; and also Dunx's avoidance of actually having to move to DH would have been Illegal. I agree with Dunx - there shouldn't be the restriction of escaping the pull of a DH loop by pure LV only when situated at DH. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Infinity. Cool, eh? iQA/AwUBNuQfRctA22MsBS7iEQK5ygCeIK9JhlLTly6jD4yPqHk8lmWdDzIAoKJt SYWGJSYXo9HUuhZyGuJWHz0c =y5At -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 8 22:11:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15546 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 06:11:32 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 06:11:32 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA12491; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:11:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012385; Tue, 9 Mar 99 16:10:53 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:10:52 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F26@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:10:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Game 16 Announcement Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, March 05, 1999 5:13 AM, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > Two options have been mooted for Game 16 (to be played in the Brooke- > Taylor Lounge): > a) Chateau d'Eau > b) Ruttsborough Team Game > Opinions please. After a bit of consultation, and the discovery that the map referenced in the rules does actually have the station names on it (as opposed to the one at the Subway Navigator, metro.ratp.fr:10001), I'll join in the Chateau d'Eau game. Now to put my beret on... Hup! I'd probably join in either, but Cd'E would be nice for now. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 01:04:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15296 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 09:04:31 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 09:04:31 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA01338 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:04:08 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 09:04:07 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA10436; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:04:06 GMT Message-Id: <199903090904.JAA10436@uksn82> Date: 09 Mar 99 09:02:04 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-98-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 09-Mar-99 06:10 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Game 16 Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, that seems fairly definite. We might as well start then. Expect an announcement in the Brooke-Taylor Lounge shortly. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 01:48:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30874 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 09:48:52 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 09:48:52 -0000 Received: from modem-106.thalium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.40.106] helo=my) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KJ7m-0007Jv-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:48:31 +0000 Message-ID: <000401be6a12$9ac1cba0$6a28883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:09:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill Loops Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> If the previous non-Pass Move in a Game is "Dollis Hill", Dollis Hill >> is a Valid Move. In addition, all Stations other than Dollis Hill are >> Invalid Move destinations, unless the Player taking eir Turn has >> performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis Escape]" Action this Turn. > >My point here is that 'Valid Move' does not give you any information about >where the player's Piece ends up doing. The whole "Valid Move" thing could probably use a bit of a rearrangement, on reflection; although it makes sense if you start at Rule 1.5.0 and read from there, jumping straight in at 1.8.1 to work out what's Valid is likely to get confusing. >* If it performs a Move to get to DH, then (theoretically) it would have to >obey 1.5.0, and specifically the way would have to be clear for that Move >to still be Valid. This would leave most people in a Paradox. If "it performs a Move"? I'm not sure which of us misses the other's gist. Performing the "[Dollis Sidestep]" Action affects which Stations are Valid and Invalid Moves when you come to make your actual Move; the Action itself doesn't move your Piece at all, through teleportation, faux Movement or anything else. >I agree with Dunx - there shouldn't be the restriction of escaping the pull >of a DH loop by pure LV only when situated at DH. Maybe. It does weaken it a lot, though - as it stands (or stood in my mind), the Dollis Hill Loop is quite a clever and useful tactic; if you can pull one off just when your opponents have run out of Silvers and Golds, you're pretty much guaranteed to inconvenience them. Having to wait until none of them can get an LV of 10 is far more difficult, and makes the Loop into more of a direct attack ("Well, Dunx can afford to Escape, but it'll inconvenience Kevan"). Surely the whole point of a Dollis Hill Loop is that it affects all Players and should be relatively tricky to get rid of? As I remember, "[Dollis Escape]" was written in as a way to eventually break the Loop by force, if you've been stuck there long enough. I'm tempted to repeal the Escape Action, and perhaps reword the Loop rule to permit other, "normal" methods of escape - Straddling, and whatnot. It should really go by Piece location, rather than Move text. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 04:57:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6479 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 12:57:48 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 12:57:47 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA04843 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:57:26 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 12:57:26 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA25460; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:57:25 GMT Message-Id: <199903091257.MAA25460@uksn82> Date: 09 Mar 99 12:53:01 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-g-return-35-DELLIS=UK.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 09-Mar-99 12:03 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Wild Thing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shifting the forum for this one, since it has wider application... For those not party to Game 13, Kevan had played a Wild and claimed the bonus for passing through five Interchanges. >>> +1 Silver for passing five Interchanges >> >>I don't think that's on, claiming a route bonus for a Wild - bluntly, it's= >>too easy. >I did go for a mere five, there, rather than exploiting it to the full >whenever I could. Your self-restraint does you credit. >And this issue has come up before, with no proposed >solutions to the problem; I just thought I'd rattle things up a little. I'll >maybe propose a fix for this evening. Yes, it has. Should have thought about it more definitely before. >>Route bonuses should only apply to a normal Piece Move (which was the >>wording at one stage, IIRC), and no matter how you look at it Wilding is >>not normal. >"Normal" needs defining, really. If "[Wild]" renders your Move abnormal, >does [Home] (by the "loads of Interchanges" thing, it probably does)? But >does [Striling]? Does [LV+1], even? You're right, "normal" should perhaps be more explicitly defined. The closest we have at the moment is the following from Rule 1.5.8: * A Piece's Move is its normal motion along LU lines, excluding all Action-related changes to position. This may be referred to simply as 'a Move' Again that troubling use of the word 'normal'... In those terms, the only normal Move is one which is modified only by acceleration. >Maybe it's worth having a look at the "passing through Interchanges" aspect= >of the Game; boiled down to its essence, it allows greater Token collection= >once the Game's been progressing for a while, and encourages Players to take >circuitous paths to their destinations. At high velocities (quite aside from >Wilding), it becomes fairly easy to get the tokens you need, and the >multiple-Token rewards border on the absurd. I know - I've been abusing them mercilessly. Personally, I think the passing through bit is worth keeping but that the rewards should be simplified again - those bonuses used to have exactly the same schedule as those for the number of lines per interchange. This has the added benefit of reducing the impact of very high velocities. >But I fear that just cutting it down to the "prizes for finishing at an >Interchange" will, although clearing a lot of things up, slow the game down= >too much. Any thoughts? Indeed. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 05:43:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28246 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 13:42:43 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 13:42:43 -0000 Received: from modem-80.actinium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.44.80] helo=my) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KMm5-0001sN-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:42:22 +0000 Message-ID: <01e501be6a33$4688cf40$6a28883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:33:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Wild Thing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>And this issue has come up before, with no proposed >>solutions to the problem; I just thought I'd rattle things up a little. I'll >>maybe propose a fix for this evening. >Yes, it has. Should have thought about it more definitely before. Thinking up a fix troubles me. At first glance a simple "Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player skips eir next Token Collection phase" clause seemed to do the trick, but we've overlooked the *other* problem with Wild Stations - that you can speed quite happily around the entire board, freely dropping Tokens, Maelbergs, Suspect Packages and whatever else. The obvious solution (and something that certainly needs to be applied to Walking and Stub Linking; having glanced at the rules, you can't Walk or Link if there's no available Tube route to your destination - completely absurd) is that we should simply say "A Wild Move is not considered to pass through any Stations". Which is maybe fair enough, killing both avians with a single rock, but it means making Wilds and Homes rather powerful again; unBlockable, heedless of Maelbergs, and the rest. I did rather like the idea of Homing only being possible if you could plot a route, however tortuous, back there. That if you go for a secluded residence, Players can block your path back. Tish. >You're right, "normal" should perhaps be more explicitly defined. The closest >we have at the moment is the following from Rule 1.5.8: > > * A Piece's Move is its normal motion along LU lines, excluding all > Action-related changes to position. This may be referred to simply > as 'a Move' > >Again that troubling use of the word 'normal'... In those terms, the only >normal Move is one which is modified only by acceleration. Personally I read it as a "normal move" being that made during your Movement phase, as opposed to Compass Trickery, Straddling and the like. Accelerating somewhere is arguably just as much an "Action-related change to position" as Wilding a few stops away. >Personally, I think the passing through bit is worth keeping but that the >rewards should be simplified again - those bonuses used to have exactly the >same schedule as those for the number of lines per interchange. This has the >added benefit of reducing the impact of very high velocities. No prize at all for passing more than five Interchanges is, perhaps, the best solution; a high LV is advantage enough in itself. Expect a Proposal about this, this evening... Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 06:05:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11888 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 14:05:32 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 14:05:32 -0000 Received: from modem-34.iodine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.34] helo=franz-liszt) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KN8B-000612-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:05:11 +0000 Message-ID: <001801be6a37$2bcdb680$221a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:14:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Wild Thing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> * A Piece's Move is its normal motion along LU lines, excluding all >> Action-related changes to position. This may be referred to simply >> as 'a Move' >> >>Again that troubling use of the word 'normal'... In those terms, the only >>normal Move is one which is modified only by acceleration. That's the solution I favour: make a defined difference between Standard Moves (which are as described above, modified only by LV changes) and Special Moves (which require an Action other than acceleration or deceleration in the Pre-Move phase to be valid. (Home, Wild, Strile, Stub Link are examples...) A proposal is already present (and about to be unveiled tonight with next week's set) altering the Token Collection table to reflect this: the Token bonus for passing through Interchanges will only apply to normal Piece movement, Special Moves not counting as such. I've always thought of Special Moves as a kind of teleport (which should, perhaps, be blocked by certain types of Clamp: how about a Knid rule, explicitly preventing Special Moves but with no other penalty? :-) Also, collecting a Bronze for Zone Passes or a Black for remaining on the same Line will only apply if the player has actually moved (i.e. no black or bronze bonuses for playing Pass or Farkle.) Token bonuses for moving to Interchanges will apply to the station the Player ends eir move at, not to the one at the end of the Piece Move (if the two are different, e.g. by a Straddle or Compass Trick, or use of an Escalator Link.) I've also changed a few Token bonuses in the Token Table, in particular to include ways of getting Greens (as the only type of Token other than Gold that can't be got by means of moving: this IMHO ought to be changed. One can get Silvers, Bronzes, Blues, Reds and Blacks by making normal moves, so why not Greens as well? Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 06:10:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14813 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 14:10:39 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 14:10:39 -0000 Received: from modem-34.iodine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.34] helo=franz-liszt) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KND8-0006UK-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:10:18 +0000 Message-ID: <003d01be6a37$e3337b20$221a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:19:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill Loops Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Surely the whole point of a Dollis Hill Loop is that it affects all Players >and should be relatively tricky to get rid of? As I remember, "[Dollis >Escape]" was written in as a way to eventually break the Loop by force, if >you've been stuck there long enough. > >I'm tempted to repeal the Escape Action, and perhaps reword the Loop rule to >permit other, "normal" methods of escape - Straddling, and whatnot. It >should really go by Piece location, rather than Move text. No. It was brought in specifically to get the game out of a serious paradox when the game was in Knip (and thus the Sidestep action, which cost a token, was banned) and nobody had any Blue tokens to void the Knip: the move had to be Dollis Hill, and players couldn't even Pass to get blue tokens to void the Knip first. Also, if there is no Escape action, then if somebody moves to DH when *nobody* has any silver tokens, then there is no escape: because nobody can sidestep, or move to an Interchange with five lines, or pass through five interchanges on the move. So the Escape action is doubly necessary. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 07:16:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18810 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 15:12:41 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 15:12:41 -0000 Received: from modem-1.protactinium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.45.1] helo=my) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KOB9-0001s3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <027e01be6a3f$d819b580$6a28883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:53:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Token Gestures? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Token bonuses >for moving to Interchanges will apply to the station the Player ends eir >move at, not to the one at the end of the Piece Move (if the two are >different, e.g. by a Straddle or Compass Trick, or use of an Escalator >Link.) I'm not sure about this - I presume it's been implemented by having the Token Collection Phase after the Post-Move Action Phase; if so, we lose the fairly huge game element of Moving, collecting a Token, then using that Token to pay for an Action. Switching the Phases makes everyone a little bit more vulnerable, a touch slower, and a tad more predictable. I don't think this is worth the "benefit" described above. > I've also changed a few Token bonuses in the Token Table, in >particular to include ways of getting Greens (as the only type of Token >other than Gold that can't be got by means of moving: this IMHO ought to >be changed. One can get Silvers, Bronzes, Blues, Reds and Blacks by >making normal moves, so why not Greens as well? Oh, I don't know - I rather like the idea of only being able to get Greens by Recycling other Tokens, myself. The fact that they're the colour of neutrality means that you really should be able to get hold of them very easily. I have found their manufacturing cost rather steep, though - having to sacrifice two Tokens to create one Green seems quite expensive, particularly since Green Actions are by their nature the most likely to be useless. (I do note rather too many off-message Green Actions, actually, including some of my own. Tsk.) Being able to recycle a single Plastic Token into a Green seems far more reasonable. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 11:07:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22866 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 18:57:19 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 18:57:19 -0000 Received: from modem-109.samarium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.30.237] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KRgX-0005ux-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:56:57 +0000 Message-ID: <005a01be6a5f$f0c91560$ed1e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:06:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Token Gestures? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Oh, I don't know - I rather like the idea of only being able to get Greens >by Recycling other Tokens, myself. The fact that they're the colour of >neutrality means that you really should be able to get hold of them very >easily. > >I have found their manufacturing cost rather steep, though - having to >sacrifice two Tokens to create one Green seems quite expensive, particularly >since Green Actions are by their nature the most likely to be useless. (I do >note rather too many off-message Green Actions, actually, including some of >my own. Tsk.) Being able to recycle a single Plastic Token into a Green >seems far more reasonable. I don't agree so much here - remember, not all material can be recycled, and there is always some wastage. Hence the two-to-one cost (I presume that was the reasoning behind using a two-to-one exchange rate in the first place.) Which is why I suggest that Greens should be available in the interchange-passing table - I gave them to moves longer than six interchanges (on the grounds that long train journeys are enviromentally friendly as compared to, for instance, the same journey by car or plane... :-) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 9 15:55:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13724 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Mar 1999 23:25:49 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 23:25:49 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA16972; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:25:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016832; Wed, 10 Mar 99 09:25:11 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:25:10 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F2B@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:25:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Wild Thing Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 09, 1999 11:34 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > The obvious solution (and something that certainly needs to be applied to > Walking and Stub Linking; having glanced at the rules, you can't Walk or > Link if there's no available Tube route to your destination - completely > absurd) is that we should simply say "A Wild Move is not considered to > pass through any Stations". Good news. I've already submitted a proposal to fix this. It divides 1.5.0 into three sections - Passed Moves, in which the Piece is not moved; Special Moves, where the Piece is moved directly to the destination Station and specifically doesn't pass through any other stations; and Normal Moves, which are evaluated as normal. Special Moves are basically everything in section 3 of the current 1.5.0; all other 'Wild-like' Actions such as Striles, Compass Tricks, and so on do specifically state that the piece is moved to the target station directly. > Which is maybe fair enough, killing both avians with a single rock, but it > means making Wilds and Homes rather powerful again; unBlockable, heedless of > Maelbergs, and the rest. I did rather like the idea of Homing only being > possible if you could plot a route, however tortuous, back there. That if > you go for a secluded residence, Players can block your path back. Tish. Personally, I don't hold entirely to this theory. Firstly, you can block someone's Home, which will stop them entering it (IIRC); secondly, I believe your Home should always be an option (unless, as before, someone blocks it. It's not that much easier, and; conversely, if they're out blocking your Home, they're not blocking you, which is a far more direct approach. If someone Blocked my Home, they'd have to be doing something pretty amazing to also stymie me elsewhere. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNuUhMstA22MsBS7iEQKyqACeLS9UbPauzk74epMZOB2Oj+W3+BoAn3T8 YwoBRuaEp71aXEUFQtWkgdJM =7UWF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 9 17:15:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15598 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Mar 1999 00:30:18 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 1999 00:30:18 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KWsn-0006l8-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:29:58 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:25:07 GMT Message-ID: <36e6c6e0.12771454@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 43 - Delayed Week-End Gubbins Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry about this, but I'm going to have to delay the Week End gubbins= for a day or so - much of it is done, but there are significant bits still = outstanding (such as ruleset edits) and I would rather delay and do those properly = than rush to finish them poorly. Apologies. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 10 01:37:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10578 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Mar 1999 09:37:36 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 1999 09:37:36 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA07230 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:37:13 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 10 Mar 1999 09:37:13 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA19263; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:37:13 GMT Message-Id: <199903100937.JAA19263@uksn82> Date: 10 Mar 99 09:35:31 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Emergency Proposal 030 - Do Not Pass Go [Multiple] { Making a few Move-affecting Actions into "teleports", neatly solving the problem of excessive Token Collection, and of dropping Tokens and Packages at whim. Sadly this does make Wilding a powerful solution to "lobster- potting", but this can perhaps be worked around in future Proposals. } Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.11.1 (Born to be Wild) to:- If a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Wild]", eir LV is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, all Wild Stations are Valid Moves, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Wild]" Action. Reword Rule 1.12.4 (Going Home) to:- If a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Home]" or "[Home: ]", eir LV is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, eir Home Station is a Valid Move, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through= any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing either of these Actions. Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) to:- If a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Walking]", eir LV is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, all Stations within Walking Distance of the Player's Location are Valid Moves, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Walking]" Action. { Aside from speeding round the board during a Walk, the current wording stops you Walking from Wimbledon to South Wimbledon if, say, Stockwell is Blocked. } To the end of Rule 1.7.33 (Stubbery), add:- If a Player owns the Ticket Stub for the Station eir Piece is situated at, e may perform the pre-Move Action "[Stub Link]" - for the remainder of eir Turn, all Stations which e has Ticket Stubs for are Valid Moves, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. { Again, getting a British Rail train from Amersham to New Cross shouldn't be affected by a Bulkhead at Wapping. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Raised by Kevan, 9/3/99 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= (after all that agonising over not finishing off last night, there was one vital email I forgot...) -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Mar 10 15:15:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28020 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Mar 1999 23:14:28 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 1999 23:14:28 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KsAr-000Pyj-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:14:01 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:14:53 GMT Message-ID: <36e8fc02.2239800@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 44 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Four -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 635 - Prime Time [Amendment] Reword the second and third paragraphs of Rule 1.13.1 (The Richard = Whiteley Experience) to: When a new Game commences (i.e. when the first Player to move in a new = Game takes eir Turn), Game Time is set to a time randomly selected by the Speaker. Each active Player subsequently adds a number of hours and minutes equal to the total time taken by the Actions and movements of the Player's Piece. The maximum length of eir Turn starts at one hour (sixty minutes) and is only extended by the Player playing the [Game Time: = +0n00] Action - the length thus being extended by 'n' hours. A Turn that takes longer than the length allotted to it is an Illegal Move. Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' = advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn = ends at Thursday 0520. {The aim of this is to stop the rounding-off in hours; since most of us = are calculating the minutes taken in our moves anyway. It changes the game mechanics somewhat, as it becomes more difficult to play a move designed = to close the station occupied by the next player, but that is still possible and I don't think this change is going to stop those who are determined = to do such trickery.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 636 - Flag Capturing and Dropping (Amendment) *Replace the entire text of Rule 2.8.4 with: "Flags may be picked up and dropped by Players, with the Post-Move Actions [Collecting Flag from ] and [Dropping Flag on ] respectively, where is the colour of the team which owns the flag in question and is the Station where the Actioning Player is situated at the end of eir Move. A Flag in a Player's possession is kept in the Luggage Rack." {Comment: At the moment, there is no requirement for the Player to land at the station in question, only to actually pass through and drop the Flag en route - like Tokens. But Flags should be more important and harder to get and drop than that IMHO...} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 637 - Finsbury Option lines (Amendment) Amend Rule 2.3.1 to read: *The "North London" line from Richmond to North Woolwich, and the Thameslink connections from Kentish Town to Farringdon, Moorgate, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle, and from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, shall be considered as Underground lines with Line Codes of (NL) and (TL) respectively, and shall be counted towards the number of Lines present at Interchanges. However, these Lines are considered to be exempt from all Zone regulations and are not covered by Zone Passes: a Player ending eir Piece Move on one of these Lines may not claim a Bronze Token for playing in a Zone for which a Pass is held, even if the Station is on another Underground line and the Player has a Zone Pass for the relevant Zone. A London Underground map with the North London and Thameslink lines on can be found at the following website: http://www.labs.bt.com/profsoc/globecom/under.htm Connections for the [Walking] Action exist between the following Stations: Kentish Town West (NL) - Kentish Town (TL, NT) Camden Road (NL) - Camden Town (NT) Hampstead Heath (NL) - Hampstead (NT) Caledonian Road & Barnesbury (NL) - Caledonian Road (PD) Finchley Road & Frognal (NL) - Finchley Road (MP, JL) Acton Central (NL) and North Acton, East Acton, West Acton (CT) Acton Town (PD) and South Acton (NL) *[This paragraph is not to be included in the Ruleset: The Speaker should use the map at the aforementioned URL to calculate the Charge on each Station which is not already mentioned in the list of Charges: all those unique to the NL, and the charge of City Thameslink. E should also post a copy of the map to the MorNomic website, just in case the page is withdrawn at a later date.] *The Thameslink connections from Moorgate to Farringdon, and from Moorgate to Finsbury Park, are closed on Saturdays and Sundays, and open at peak hours only on Mondays to Fridays. *Construction Lines are considered as normal Lines, and a Hard Hat is not needed to use them: therefore the Hard Hat Possession does not exist in this game. The Jubilee Line connections to Westminster, Waterloo, London Bridge, Canary Wharf, Canning Town, West Ham and Stratford are included in the standard Interchanges. *[This paragraph is not to be included in the Ruleset: Anybody who has already bought a Hard Hat in a Finsbury Option game is to be refunded the cost, and the Hard Hat removed from eir Possessions.] {Comment: This is a solution, in part, to the question of how to actually implement use of the North London Line etc. in the Finsbury Option. I include the bit about not counting toward Zone Passes because there is no available map which shows both the Zones and the two above Lines. I had to list the Interchanges because they are not marked as Interchanges on the actual map showing the Construction Line: they are, nevertheless, interchanges, or will be when the stations are opened.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 638 - Line Code Rewrite (Rewrite) Rewrite the last paragraph of Rule 1.17.4 to read: "When a Player makes a Piece Move, e should state the Line Code of the Line e rests on at the end of the Move, and the Line Code of every Line Segment e has used during the move if e has changed Line. If e moves to another Station afterwards by use of a Post-Move Action, e must state the Line Code of the Line e rests on at the destination Station. {Comments: A bit simpler than the original, which defined the Station rather than the Player's Piece as being on the Line.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 639 - No Zone Bonus for Passing (Amendment) *Amendments to Rule 1.4.20: to be amended to read... This Table lists the Token bonuses and penalties for Moves. +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Event | Token Bonus | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Playing "Pass" as eir Move | +2 Red, Black | | | or Blue | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Playing "Farkle" as eir Move | +1 Green. | | | +1 Black, Blue | | | or Red +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Playing a valid non-Pass move and | | | ending eir Turn in a Station in a Zone | +1 Bronze | | for which a Zone Pass is carried | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Ending eir Turn in an Interchange with | +1 Red | | exactly two lines, having not Passed | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Ending eir Turn in an Interchange with | +1 Black | | exactly three lines, having not Passed | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Ending eir Turn in an Interchange with | +1 Blue | | exactly four lines, having not Passed | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Ending eir Turn in an Interchange with | +1 Silver | | five or more lines, having not Passed | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Playing a valid non-Pass Piece Move | +1 Black | | which does not change Line | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly two | +1 Red | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly three | +1 Black | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly four | +1 Blue | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly five | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly six | +1 Green | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | +1 Black | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly seven | +1 Green | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | +1 Blue | | | +1 Red | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly eight | +1 Green | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | +1 Red | | | +2 Black | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through exactly nine | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | +1 Green | | | +2 Blue | | | +2 Red | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ | Passing through ten or more | As above but | | Interchanges during eir Piece Move | with +1 Black | | | for each extra | | | interchange | +----------------------------------------+----------------+ If a Player passes through the same Interchange twice in one move, e may still only count it once against the number of Interchanges e has passed through. *Amend Rule 1.5.12 (Farkling) - Amendment If a Player is in possession of a Silly Hat, e may play "Farkle" as eir Move. Eir Line velocity is immediately set to zero and e may not play any Post-Move Actions which change eir position that turn. A Farkle is considered to be equivalent to a Pass for references to the Player's "previous Move" and for the purposes of table 1.4.20, with the sole exception that its token bonus is different. However, a Farkle may not be played if a Rule forces that Player to Pass - only if the Player is able to move may e Farkle. {Comments: Passing or farkling doesn't get a bronze token for staying in a Zone for which a Pass is possessed, or a black token for staying on a Line. Nor does farkling now provide a greater bonus than passing: it's two tokens for either a Farkle or a Pass - but one of them can be Green if you farkle, and Greens are harder to get otherwise (look at the revised token costs: you need to pass a lot of interchanges, six or more, and can only get one green at a time. I've also altered it so that only one silver can be claimed for passing interchanges in one turn. The number of tokens increases with the number of interchanges.) In view of this, the Bronze Token bonus for the Farkle has been discarded. Anyone want to change a few more Actions to cost green tokens? } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 640 - Spherical Projection [Special Ruleset] [Enactment: Non-Euclidean Space] The Spherical Projection treats the Map as if it were pasted onto a = sphere. Under this projection, certain outlying Termini are considered to be connected to each other. These connected termini are treated as adjacent Stations, and do not count as Termini for any Rule. Where a connection is made between Termini of different lines, movement between such Stations is considered to be a Line Change in the normal = way. The following Termini are connected: High Barnet (NT) <-> Morden (NT) Cockfosters (PD) <-> Wimbledon (DS) Epping (CN) <-> Richmond (DS) Upminster (DS) <-> Ealing Broadway (CN, PD) Beckton (DL) <-> Uxbridge (MP, PD) Island Gardens (DL) <-> Amersham (MP) New Cross (EL) <-> Chesham (MP) New Cross Gate (EL) <-> Watford (MP) [Enactment: No Back Door] The following Manoeuvres specified in Rule 1.18.2 shall be ignored under this Special Ruleset: The Morden Paradox Gambit The Outlying Region Gambit { Comment: disallowing Manouevres based on it being difficult to travel between Termini. } [End of Spherical Projection] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 641 - Dolly's feeling a little better now (Amendment) Rewrite Rule 1.8.1 If the previous non-Pass Move in a Game is "Dollis Hill": * The current Player's Piece is moved directly to Dollis Hill unless they play the [Dollis Escape] Action. * Dollis Hill is the only Valid Move, unless the Player is able to play = the [Dollis Escape] Action. * Line Velocity is specifically ignored. LV can be changed in the usual manner, but has no effect on Piece Movement unless the [Dollis Escape] Action has been played beforehand A [Dollis Escape] Action may only be performed if the Actioning Player = has an LV of ten or more. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 642 - Mornington Crescent On The Buses [Multiple] 1. Brighton & Hove "Metro" Guidebook [Enactment] { I finally managed to get hold of a copy of the map they have on the = side of buses down here - after a considerable amount of rehashing (for the online copy I found was incredibly badly put together, stop names = mistyped and missing) it's become a viable Map. If the URL given doesn't work = yet, it means I haven't gotten around to uploading it. Bear with me. Still, just another Guidebook variant. No particularly staggering new rules for it being bus-based, although the Stops that are only useable = in one direction are a new idea which should make for some interesting = play, and there are a pleasing number of track loops. And being able to buy things from the Co-op seems quite cute. } Map URL : http://members.xoom.com/asabove/metro.gif Goal : The Crescent (49) Bank : Bingo Hall (1) Loop : Lark Hill (5) River : None Line Codes : 1, 5, 7, 25, 49 Zones : None Current : Unavailable Venbacker Numbers : Unavailable Quadrants : 1-4, marked on Map; no Quadrant Zero Circle Line Equivalent : Formed by two lines - Line 5 and Line 7, = between George Street and Churchill Square. Special Rules:- * Stations may be referred to as "Stops". * Map abbreviations such as "Rd" and "Gdns" should be read = unabbreviated. * Holy Hats take the place of Compass Hats. * A Shop Stop is one with the string "Shop", "Asda", "Co-op", "C&A", "Sainsburys", "Somerfield", "Texaco" or "Waitrose" in its name. * In Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium), "British Rail Station" should be read= as "Shop Stop", although "Edible" Possessions may be bought at = Refectory. "British Rail Coffee" becomes "Styrofoam-Flavoured Coffee". * Certain loops of track may only be traversed in one direction, as indicated by arrows around that loop. Moves which involve traversing= any Line Sections in the wrong direction are Invalid. * Certain Stops may only be accessed in one direction, as indicated by= an arrow directly next to the Stop. If a Move ends at such a Stop = having entered from the wrong direction, or begins at such a Stop and = leaves in the wrong direction, it is Invalid. * Where a Stop is "not served Sundays", it is treated as Closed all = day Sunday. * Hardwick Road counts as a Terminus Stop. A Move which passes through Hardwick Road is Invalid. * "Palace Pier" is a Stop with a Line Code of "N/A", connected to no = other Stops. It may be Walked to from Sea Life Centre (just as Sea Life = Centre may be walked to from Palace Pier), but only during Peak Hours. * A Player may perform the ten-minute neutral Action of "[Playing the = =46ruit Machines]", provided that eir Piece is situated at Palace Pier = during Peak Hours. This Action costs one Bronze Token. After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a = six-sided die to determine eir prize - this prize should be added to that = Player's Token balance by the next Player to take eir Turn. If the next = Player takes eir Turn before the die result arrives in the Lounge, no prize= is given. Prize: 1-2 =3D Nothing, 3 =3D 1 Silver, 4 =3D 1 Gold, 5 =3D 3 = Silvers, 6 =3D 2 Golds. 2. How You Say...? [Amendment] Rename Rule 2.7.10 (Overcharged (Again)) to "No Word For Fluffy", and = reword it to:- If a Guidebook gives no Venbacker Numbers, Current, Quadrant = definitionss, or any other such data required by a Rule, the aspect of any Rule = requiring that data should be sensibly ignored. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 643 - Playing with Dollis [Amendment] { Requiring an Escape to be made from Dollis Hill itself (rather than anywhere, counter-intuitively), but permitting a Straddle or whatever to break the Loop (since it now goes by Piece location rather than Move text). I think this gives the Loop more of its proper character. } Reword Rule 1.8.1 (Dollis Hill Loop) to:- During a Player's Turn, if the previous Active Player's Piece is situated at Dollis Hill, a Dollis Hill Loop is said to be in effect. While a Dollis Hill Loop is in effect, a Move that finishes at Dollis Hill is Valid. A Move which finishes elsewhere is Invalid, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis Escape]" Action this Turn. A "[Dollis Escape]" Action may only be performed if the Actioning = Player is situated at Dollis Hill with an LV of 10 or more. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 644 - Recall Collect [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.20 (Token Collection Table), remove the rewards for passing through six, seven, eight or nine Interchanges. { Multi-token rewards are rather too generous, and giving extra incentive= to speed is probably questionable - having a high LV is beneficial enough, without being able to reap plentiful Tokens as well. By removing any reward for passing more than five Interchanges, this encourages slower = play. (Or at least more careful play; in some cases it will still be possible= to zip around at LV15 and skim just enough Interchanges for a prize.) } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 645 - Rewrite My Fire [Multiple] { Comment: Two things really - Rewrites are too fiddly to administer and = are better served by a higher Proposal limit, and the whole concept of = getting additional Kudos for repealing Rules seems a little pointless (not to mention being breoken anyway). Apologies to both Jonathan and Kevan for nicking their ideas. } [Amendment: What A Lovely Pare] Amend Rule 0.4.1 (Proposals) to remove the entry for Rewrite. [Amendment: But Only Where It's Due] Amend Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos) to remove the bonuses for passage of Rewrite and Repeal Proposals. [Amendment: Quota Palaver] Amend Rule 0.4.3 (Proposal Submission) so that its first sentance reads thus: "Players may submit up to three Proposals per Week, emailing them directly to the Speaker." [Repeal: Sitting Duck] Repeal Rule 0.4.15 (It Could Be More Dramatic, If You Know What I Mean). [End of Rewrite My Fire] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Mar 10 15:15:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27914 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Mar 1999 23:14:20 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 1999 23:14:20 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10KsAp-000Pyj-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:13:59 +0000 From: duncan@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:14:51 GMT Message-ID: <36e7fbb6.2163810@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 44 - Votes for Week 43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 621 Keep the balance right - 1 4 3 Fails 622 Reintermination 1 1 3 3 Fails 623 Lack of Interest Declared 4 1 - 3 Passes 624 Botany Bay 4 1 - 3 Passes 625 Infinite Darkness 3 1 1 3 Passes 626 Silly Old Buffers 3 1 1 3 Passes 627 Shunting the Money Around 2 1 2 3 Fails 628 Carry On Clamping 3 2 - 3 Passes [a] 629 MC Isn't Where the Start Is 4 1 - 3 Passes 630 Exciting New Buzzwords 4 1 - 3 Passes 631 Overeloquent Roadsigns 3 1 1 3 Passes 632 Time Flies 4 1 - 3 Passes 633 Bear Faced Cheek 4 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 621 (PaulWay) - AGA AGA - AGA AGA - PAS -=20 622 (PaulWay) - AGA AGA - FOR AGA - PAS -=20 623 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - FOR -=20 624 (PaulWay) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - PAS -=20 625 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS AGA - FOR -=20 626 (Jonathan) - FOR AGA - PAS FOR - FOR -=20 627 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS AGA - AGA -=20 628 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS PAS - FOR -=20 629 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR -=20 630 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR -=20 631 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA PAS - FOR -=20 632 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR -=20 633 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - FOR -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 29 3 0 16 53 16 12 15 Halved: 14 1 8 26 6 7 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +8 +0 +8 +18 +5 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 I -4 -1 I -7 -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +3 n +0 +3 n +3 +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 +0 a -0 -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 +0 t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: v +0 +0 v +0 +0 v +5 +0 e e e Repeal: +0 +0 +2 +14 +0 +0 Rewrite: +0 +0 +0 +6 +0 +0 Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +4 +6 +0 +0 = [b] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +14 +3 +0 +10 +46 +6 +0 Final Kudos: 11 28 4 0 18 72 16 12 7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] there is an internal inconsistency within this Proposal, where = mention of a Shunting Player sharing both Station and Line is to be moved but = hasn't been. I've resolved this by a silent PoO to ensure the original sense= is maintained - feel free to raise a counter-PoO if there are = objections. [b] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (Overeloquent Roadsigns) CAMREC Cleanup Award - Kevan (Exciting New Buzzwords) Mrs Trellis Award - Jonathan (Infinite Darkness) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 10 22:29:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2507 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Mar 1999 06:29:23 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 1999 06:29:23 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA17040; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:28:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016926; Thu, 11 Mar 99 16:28:27 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:28:26 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F3D@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:28:24 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 - Votes for Week 43 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:15 AM, duncan@l... [SMTP:duncan@l...] wrote: > 621 Keep the balance right - 1 4 3 Fails > 622 Reintermination 1 1 3 3 Fails OK, I can understand from the arguments about 621 that it wasn't a popular idea. Is so much wrong with Reintermination, as well? The only comment that I can recall seeing said it wouldn't do any harm - so why three Against? The current Kudos system doesn't exactly encourage people to contribute their own ideas, here. (But this is one of the first lessons in Nomics...) Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNubV6ctA22MsBS7iEQJkkACgm63ks1bztGYJq+OxnzkI0LHkWDMAoOWo vTYMKkzcB7wCePDdbTRkBjmK =CSyz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 10 22:35:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4943 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Mar 1999 06:35:52 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 1999 06:35:52 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA19002; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:35:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma018980; Thu, 11 Mar 99 16:35:04 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:35:03 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F3F@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:35:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:15 AM, duncan@l... [SMTP:duncan@l...] wrote: All of these are good. My 'issues' are: > Proposal 640 - Spherical Projection [Special Ruleset] > The Spherical Projection treats the Map as if it were pasted onto a > sphere. > The following Termini are connected: > High Barnet (NT) <-> Morden (NT) > Cockfosters (PD) <-> Wimbledon (DS) > Epping (CN) <-> Richmond (DS) > Upminster (DS) <-> Ealing Broadway (CN, PD) > Beckton (DL) <-> Uxbridge (MP, PD) > Island Gardens (DL) <-> Amersham (MP) > New Cross (EL) <-> Chesham (MP) > New Cross Gate (EL) <-> Watford (MP) I'm not sure of the Projection here. We aren't looking at a mapping similar to the standard Mercator projection, are we? To joing Island Gardens and Amersham, and then Beckton with Uxbridge, requires a sort of twisting... Not that this is a problem, mind. > Proposal 642 - Mornington Crescent On The Buses [Multiple] > After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a six-sided > die to determine eir prize - I submit that this should actually be done by using the dice server at > Proposal 643 - Playing with Dollis [Amendment] > During a Player's Turn, if the previous Active Player's Piece is > situated at Dollis Hill, a Dollis Hill Loop is said to be in effect. > While a Dollis Hill Loop is in effect, a Move that finishes at Dollis > Hill is Valid. A Move which finishes elsewhere is Invalid, unless the > Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis > Escape]" Action this Turn. This does nothing to solve the problems in the DH loop and is inferior compared to the other DH proposal in this Week. > Proposal 644 - Recall Collect [Amendment] > { Multi-token rewards are rather too generous, and giving extra incentive to > speed is probably questionable - having a high LV is beneficial enough, > without being able to reap plentiful Tokens as well. By removing any > reward for passing more than five Interchanges, this encourages slower play. Bah. You haven't lived! Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNubXdstA22MsBS7iEQKeSwCg/XYrFz5gcnz22DTXltPvWTALmzIAnRbe FDxQIvU2nTkLFLLvMzJ8fJsq =Oul0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 10 22:59:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14819 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Mar 1999 06:59:15 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 1999 06:59:15 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA25994; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:58:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma025919; Thu, 11 Mar 99 16:58:14 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:58:13 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F42@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:58:12 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, March 11, 1999 4:35 PM, Wayper, Paul [SMTP:WayperP@p...] wrote: > > Proposal 642 - Mornington Crescent On The Buses [Multiple] > > After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a > six-sided > > die to determine eir prize - > > I submit that this should actually be done by using the dice server at Flart. I forgot to add the actual address: dice@p... The format of the message is: #P mail address of a player [up to 10 #P lines allowed] #S no. of sides on every die #D no. of dice for every roll #R no. of rolls requested #L no. of rolls printed per line in output #C comments [up to 100 #C lines allowed] #T subject line of returned mail For our purposes, that's: #p l-nomic-?@egroups.com #s 6 #d 1 #r 1 #l 1 #t Dice results And it even gets PGP signed so you know it's real. ;-) Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNubc5ctA22MsBS7iEQL9GwCfZw55zotHb+NRG8cuv7+7GkbVAn8AnjR0 ah2RhU0HlUtmGEveNnDVvJmI =9hRW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 11 02:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28717 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Mar 1999 10:26:19 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 1999 10:26:19 -0000 Received: from modem-18.ruthenium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.146] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10L2f7-0000h2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:25:57 +0000 Message-ID: <00a401be6baa$2add2160$9215883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:53:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 - Votes for Week 43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >[a] there is an internal inconsistency within this Proposal, where mention of > a Shunting Player sharing both Station and Line is to be moved but hasn't > been. I've resolved this by a silent PoO to ensure the original sense is > maintained - feel free to raise a counter-PoO if there are objections. The Proposal actually said:- "If a Player, after eir Move, shares a Station with another Player, e may elect to Shunt that Player. This is achieved by performing the Action of "[Shunting to ]", where "" is an Opponent who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player," Which is fair enough, a different-Line Player only becoming Illegal when you attempt to actually target anyone, but I suppose it should ideally say "Station and Line" in the first sentence. Not quite sure why I worded it so. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 11 02:26:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28726 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Mar 1999 10:26:21 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 1999 10:26:21 -0000 Received: from modem-18.ruthenium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.146] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10L2f8-0000h2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:25:59 +0000 Message-ID: <00a501be6baa$2be20e40$9215883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:53:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 - Votes for Week 43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >OK, I can understand from the arguments about 621 that it wasn't a popular >idea. Is so much wrong with Reintermination, as well? The only comment >that I can recall seeing said it wouldn't do any harm - so why three >Against? As I said at the time, Token Running for Silvers (and faffing around keeping track of which Termini you've already visited) seems far too much effort when you can just visit Kings Cross as many times as you like. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 11 02:26:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28789 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Mar 1999 10:26:26 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 1999 10:26:26 -0000 Received: from modem-18.ruthenium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.146] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10L2fA-0000h2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:26:01 +0000 Message-ID: <00a601be6baa$2cc3e2c0$9215883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:53:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 635 - Prime Time [Amendment] Nice and useful rewording of things (adding the length of your Turn to Game Time, extended or otherwise, is a good phrasing, the current Rules being something of a mess), but I'm not sure that the extra paperwork involved would give much benefit. The only interesting application that occurs to me is that of a Team Game - of Player X taking a brief Turn, so that team-mate Player Y won't be in trouble later on. As you say, this reduces the chance of trapping Players at Closed Stations, but with such a thing being rare enough anyway (it's been managed, what, twice?), I'd rue it being made any more difficult. >Proposal 636 - Flag Capturing and Dropping (Amendment) Maybe worthwhile, although it's incredibly easy to set up a Sinkhole at your Home, if you're worried about invaders. Hard to say if it needs work, really, never having played a Capture the Flag Game. >Proposal 637 - Finsbury Option lines (Amendment) Neatly done. I'm wary of the impact of certain Stations not being in Zones, but can't foresee anything disasterous. >Proposal 638 - Line Code Rewrite (Rewrite) > >Rewrite the last paragraph of Rule 1.17.4 to read: Does 1.17.4 have a "last Paragraph"? (It's just a list of Line Codes.) 1.2.0 seems to cover the majority of this already anyway, although the stated Line Code for Action-based Moves is a necessary thing. It shouldn't go in Section 17, though, which is a mere glossary. >Proposal 639 - No Zone Bonus for Passing (Amendment) Some nice repairs to the separate rewards for Passing and Moving, but the wording seems a little too verbose, and - most critically of all - by awarding the Move-to-Interchange bonuses according to position at the end of *Turn*, it makes it impossible to collect them during the Token Collection Phase (which is before Post-Move Actions). >Proposal 640 - Spherical Projection [Special Ruleset] As Paul comments, it makes for a very strange sphere. And I can't see it adding an awful lot to the Game, other than the occasional surprise attack. Maybe it'd be interesting to have around, though, for combination with other Special Rulesets... >Proposal 641 - Dolly's feeling a little better now (Amendment) > >If the previous non-Pass Move in a Game is "Dollis Hill": >* The current Player's Piece is moved directly to Dollis Hill unless they >play the [Dollis Escape] Action. No Sidestep any more, then? Hmm. Maybe a good thing, I suppose; that Dollis Hill is only worth playing if everyone's moving fairly slowly... The timing on this one seems a tad suspect, though - when does the Player's Piece get moved? It seems to equate to "at the very start of your Turn, unless you're going to perform the Escape Action during your pre-Move Actions", which seems a little too unwieldy - the current approach of Dollis Hill being the only Valid Move (which is even re-implemented in this Proposal) is all that's required. >* Dollis Hill is the only Valid Move, unless the Player is able to play the >[Dollis Escape] Action. "The only Valid Move" contradicts the rule that says "Pass" is always a Valid Move, and I suppose it overrules it, being a specific case. Being able to Pass should always be an available option, though, I think (and is referred to earlier in this Proposal anyway, with mention of a "non-Pass Move"). And overruling "Timeout" is a little messy. >* Line Velocity is specifically ignored. LV can be changed in the usual >manner, but has no effect on Piece Movement unless the [Dollis Escape] >Action has been played beforehand Scary, circular logic. Line Velocity is "ignored" (a dangerous word) until you've played the [Dollis Escape] Action, but you can only play the [Dollis Escape] Action by examining your LV. Paul commented:- >> Proposal 642 - Mornington Crescent On The Buses [Multiple] >> After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a six-sided >> die to determine eir prize - > >I submit that this should actually be done by using the dice server at Rule 0.1.3 has beaten you to it, I'm afraid. Kudos for quoting the usage instructions, though; I've been putting off Random Courier Calling for ages, now, lacking the energy to log on and check the Web page for the dice-rolling commands. Such a summary would make a nice addition to the Ruleset, I think. >> Proposal 643 - Playing with Dollis [Amendment] >> During a Player's Turn, if the previous Active Player's Piece is >> situated at Dollis Hill, a Dollis Hill Loop is said to be in effect. >> While a Dollis Hill Loop is in effect, a Move that finishes at Dollis >> Hill is Valid. A Move which finishes elsewhere is Invalid, unless the >> Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis >> Escape]" Action this Turn. > >This does nothing to solve the problems in the DH loop and is inferior >compared to the other DH proposal in this Week. It solves the problem of a counter-intuitive "Escape" from a Station you aren't at, it permits the Loop to be broken (and started) by something such as a Straddle (going by Piece location for Loop continuation, rather than Move text), and it tidies up the wordings a bit. Are there really any "problems" in the DH Loop, or are people just not reading things in the right contexts? >Proposal 645 - Rewrite My Fire [Multiple] > >{ Comment: Two things really - Rewrites are too fiddly to administer and are > better served by a higher Proposal limit, and the whole concept of getting > additional Kudos for repealing Rules seems a little pointless (not to > mention being breoken anyway). Very fair points, but if Rewrites would be better replaced by a higher Proposal limit, why not - er - allow a higher Proposal limit? I think I'd rather see the style of Rewrites changed a little - maybe to allow an amendment that purely reflects "common sense", or the rearranging of a Rule so that it's written as we've been playing it. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Graeme Jefferis Fri Mar 12 18:21:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16432 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Mar 1999 22:52:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO search.findmail.com) (207.138.41.144) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 12 Mar 1999 22:52:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 6968 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Mar 1999 00:25:11 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by 207.138.41.144 with SMTP; 12 Mar 1999 00:25:11 -0000 Received: from vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06895 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:52:35 GMT Received: from nevis.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@n... [146.227.102.139]) by vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7/H1.6) with ESMTP id MAA06250 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:43:45 GMT From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by nevis.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id MAA22591 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:43:43 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:43:43 GMT Message-Id: <199903111243.MAA22591@n...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: BCMdipsneUmnS5XcbqtQiA== Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 642 - Mornington Crescent On The Buses [Multiple] This is great. How can anyone resist a map with 'Long Man of Wilmington' on? -Grimace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 12 21:45:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16819 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Mar 1999 05:45:13 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 05:45:13 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA15920; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:38:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015616; Fri, 12 Mar 99 09:38:23 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:38:23 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F44@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:38:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 - Votes for Week 43 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, March 11, 1999 7:54 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > As I said at the time, Token Running for Silvers (and faffing around keeping > track of which Termini you've already visited) seems far too much effort > when you can just visit Kings Cross as many times as you like. Then why not allow it anyway? I don't understand that attitude at all. There are many ways to collect Silvers - Gambits, King's Cross, and transit through large number of interchanges. So what's the problem with another method, that is a different form of moving and at least requires the person to keep moving around the map? Why is too much effort a problem, Kev? Respects, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNufHTctA22MsBS7iEQKvdACg/xglZDlOYvV0zEYEcLiJpv3LrTEAnjrC 97gg+6MqQPA68Ho8QVM9aV+W =SVlq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sat Mar 13 00:41:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32145 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Mar 1999 08:41:08 -0000 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.212) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 08:41:08 -0000 Received: from modem-79.ketamine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.74.207] helo=my) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10LNzB-0004s5-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:12:07 +0000 Message-ID: <003e01be6c69$046beba0$cf4a883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:57:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 44 - Votes for Week 43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> As I said at the time, Token Running for Silvers (and faffing around keeping >> track of which Termini you've already visited) seems far too much effort >> when you can just visit Kings Cross as many times as you like. > >Then why not allow it anyway? Fair comment, really - an extra way to do something is only a problem if you can do it *in addition* to the existing method. Token Running and Interchange bonuses are fairly mutually exclusive (with the exception of a few Stations; Ealing Broadway, Charing Cross and - perhaps critically - Bank), so coexistence isn't a problem. >Why is too much effort a problem, Kev? Because it doesn't encourage people to use it; the stingy caveats of your Token Running seem absurd next to the "Moved to a five-line Interchange? Have a Silver. Passed through five, as well? Have two Silvers!" bonus, and I'm always rather leery of anything that requires Players to remember things for the remainder of the game (Bulkheading is just about forgivable for giving a pleasing "Ahaha! You can't, Chalk Farm's Bulkheaded." aspect). Effort is only a good thing if there's some reward for going to it. I think we'd be better off with good, proper, old-fashioned Token Running, really (the only restriction on the Action being that you can't play it within the Circle Line), with a Silver replacing a Gold. The really broken aspect of the original Running was that you'd have enough Golds to win in three Turns; with Silvers, it's not too bothersome if someone sits and hoards - it'll take six Turns to gather enough (giving opponents plenty of time to disrupt or lobster-pot them), and even then they'll have to tiptoe back to Bank to get them changed. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sat Mar 13 01:16:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12801 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Mar 1999 09:16:31 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 09:16:31 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA01785 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:47:30 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 12 Mar 1999 09:47:30 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA22619; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:47:30 GMT Message-Id: <199903120947.JAA22619@uksn82> Date: 12 Mar 99 09:43:25 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Jonathan Inactive Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pausing only to deliver eir Votes, Jonathan has mailed me to say that e's going Inactive for a time - at least a few days, possibly a few weeks. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sat Mar 13 01:42:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24817 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Mar 1999 09:42:33 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 09:42:33 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA05860 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:13:32 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 12 Mar 1999 10:13:31 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09510; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:13:31 GMT Message-Id: <199903121013.KAA09510@uksn82> Date: 12 Mar 99 10:08:50 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-109-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 10-Mar-99 09:35 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 030 Passes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Emergency Proposal 030 - Do Not Pass Go [Multiple] { Making a few Move-affecting Actions into "teleports", neatly solving the problem of excessive Token Collection, and of dropping Tokens and Packages at whim. Sadly this does make Wilding a powerful solution to "lobster- potting", but this can perhaps be worked around in future Proposals. } Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.11.1 (Born to be Wild) to:- If a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Wild]", eir LV is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, all Wild Stations are Valid Moves, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Wild]" Action. Reword Rule 1.12.4 (Going Home) to:- If a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Home]" or "[Home: ]", eir LV is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, eir Home Station is a Valid Move, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through= any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing either of these Actions. Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) to:- If a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Walking]", eir LV is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, all Stations within Walking Distance of the Player's Location are Valid Moves, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Walking]" Action. { Aside from speeding round the board during a Walk, the current wording stops you Walking from Wimbledon to South Wimbledon if, say, Stockwell is Blocked. } To the end of Rule 1.7.33 (Stubbery), add:- If a Player owns the Ticket Stub for the Station eir Piece is situated at, e may perform the pre-Move Action "[Stub Link]" - for the remainder of eir Turn, all Stations which e has Ticket Stubs for are Valid Moves, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. { Again, getting a British Rail train from Amersham to New Cross shouldn't be affected by a Bulkhead at Wapping. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Raised by Kevan, 9/3/99 Dunx and RiffRaff voted FOR - it passed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sat Mar 13 10:52:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3323 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Mar 1999 17:39:28 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 17:39:28 -0000 Received: from modem-17.infed.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.73.145] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10LWO1-0004y4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:10:18 +0000 Message-ID: <001101be6cb4$33deb8e0$9149883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:14:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Charge Delta Calculator Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Footling around trying to teach myself Visual C++ via the "Frankenstein" approach and a handful of tutorials culled from the Web, my first lumbering offspring emerged blinking into the Friday daylight, earlier - it's a little implementation of the Charge Delta Calculator from the Web page; a shade more easy to use, and fairly handy to have as a desktop accessory (it's only 26k). More features to come, probably; it's just the "difference between two Station Charges" thing, at the moment, since such is the only calculation I ever need to perform. Still. Feel free to link it from the Web page, or whatever, Dunx. http://members.xoom.com/asabove/mornomic.exe Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 15 23:01:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6254 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 07:01:44 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 07:01:44 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA28232; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:32:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma028212; Mon, 15 Mar 99 17:32:36 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:32:36 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F50@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:32:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It seems I am having problems understanding you, Kevan. I'm not trying to be dense, or antagonistic; although I might be a little defensive I don't think this is unjustified. (I'd also like to hear the opinions of the other three or so people who didn't seem to like token running in its new form). On Friday, March 12, 1999 6:58 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > Fair comment, really - an extra way to do something is only a problem if > you can do it *in addition* to the existing method. Token Running and > Interchange bonuses are fairly mutually exclusive (with the exception of a > few Stations; Ealing Broadway, Charing Cross and - perhaps critically - > Bank), so coexistence isn't a problem. Again, I don't understand. Do you mean 'in addition', like claiming a silver token for moving to KXSP and through more than five interchanges; or do you mean like playing two token claims off the same station? You could move through eight interchanges and still end up at a terminus - do you want to ban this? > Because it doesn't encourage people to use it; the stingy caveats of your > Token Running seem absurd next to the "Moved to a five-line Interchange? > Have a Silver. Passed through five, as well? Have two Silvers!" bonus, and Try getting a Silver token outside zone 1 and I think you'll see my point. > I'm always rather leery of anything that requires Players to remember things > for the remainder of the game (Bulkheading is just about forgivable for > giving a pleasing "Ahaha! You can't, Chalk Farm's Bulkheaded." aspect). > Effort is only a good thing if there's some reward for going to it. Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Station closure is a good example of something that you have to remember to check, and it's not even part of the current set of actions! Do you have a problem with that as well? > I think we'd be better off with good, proper, old-fashioned Token Running, > really (the only restriction on the Action being that you can't play it > within the Circle Line), with a Silver replacing a Gold. The really broken > aspect of the original Running was that you'd have enough Golds to win in > three Turns; with Silvers, it's not too bothersome if someone sits and > hoards - it'll take six Turns to gather enough (giving opponents plenty of > time to disrupt or lobster-pot them), and even then they'll have to tiptoe > back to Bank to get them changed. In some ways I consider this a disadvantage. I don't like the fact that the focus of the game might shift from MC to Bank. But I consider that a minor problem - after all there is always going to be one real focus of the game... I don't see much difference with my proposal as to what Kev's just recommended as a fix for Token Running. It's harder to do, earns you less and stops various trickeries like wilding. What was wrong with it, then? BTW, I have found two ways to win a game in the current ruleset (Y2W43) of MN in two moves, only requiring the use of one black token to change lines. Let me know if you want to see it played out. Or would you like to ban that as well? :-) Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNuwq9MtA22MsBS7iEQJvgACg2G62OUThQzKK7wEPSJq2QcRWSxMAoKXi DR4Xs5dFFYsotGtel8KID3gX =d8se -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 01:30:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19684 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 09:29:47 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 09:29:47 -0000 Received: from modem-121.yttrium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.19.121] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10MUAu-0007Z7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:00:44 +0000 Message-ID: <004f01be6ecb$4f990f40$7913883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:57:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Again, I don't understand. Do you mean 'in addition', like claiming a >silver token for moving to KXSP and through more than five interchanges; or >do you mean like playing two token claims off the same station? Just that you can't Token Run in addition to moving to Kings Cross - the two are mutually exclusive, and as such Token Running isn't horrendously powerful. >Try getting a Silver token outside zone 1 and I think you'll see my point. Oh, I do, I do. I merely question the profusion of clauses to the thing; why should it be so awkward to pluck Silvers from the outer reaches, when it's so easy to gather them in Zone 1? >> I'm always rather leery of anything that requires Players to remember >things >> for the remainder of the game (Bulkheading is just about forgivable for >> giving a pleasing "Ahaha! You can't, Chalk Farm's Bulkheaded." aspect). >> Effort is only a good thing if there's some reward for going to it. > >Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. I do? I merely say that Bulkheading has slight merit in its dramatic effect (although such is usually more "Er, sorry, I Bulkheaded that ages ago, for some obsolete reason; you'll have to replay" than "Ahaha, Mr Bond!"), but becomes rather tiresome when (as in the Long Game) it just falls to whether anyone remembers the Bulkhead and buzzes you. It's the sort of thing that would work well if we were sat around a proper board, but doesn't translate well to email, when you should be able to take in the state of the game from a quick glance through the Token Table and the last few Plays. >Station closure is a good >example of something that you have to remember to check, and it's not even >part of the current set of actions! Do you have a problem with that as >well? Not at all; with potentially-Closed Stations and Lines marked on the Map, it's easy to see if your Move involves any, and the Crescent and Holy Stations are exceptions which are easy enough to remember. I'd have a problem were there an Action which Closed a Station for the rest of the Game and expected Players to remember this, though. >In some ways I consider this a disadvantage. I don't like the fact that >the focus of the game might shift from MC to Bank. It's beginning to trouble me a bit, as well; the Game does seem to be tightening in around Zone 1 a lot - maybe it's time to reintroduce a way to get actual Golds from the outer reaches? >I don't see much difference with my proposal as to what Kev's just >recommended as a fix for Token Running. It's harder to do, earns you less >and stops various trickeries like wilding. What was wrong with it, then? I'm just naturally averse to Rules which have too many words or clauses in, really. The stopping of "various trickeries" such as Wilding seemed rather superfluous - since these days it takes two Plastics to make a Green to declare the Wild, and a Black to Move to it, I think anyone who bothers to Wild for a Token Run deserves their prize. And the "once per Terminus", as I say, bothers me as being something to remember - I don't want to have to (particularly in the Long Game) read back through all previous Turns to check a Play's legality. A simple "Token Running may only be performed if the Player Moved to a Terminus during eir Movement Phase" clause would probably slow things down just enough. >BTW, I have found two ways to win a game in the current ruleset (Y2W43) of >MN in two moves, only requiring the use of one black token to change lines. >Let me know if you want to see it played out. I would, of course, dearly love to. I imagine it's a Charge trick? I've never quite had the enthusiasm to sit down and do the maths for those, but I'm sure there are some very simple few-move paths from a Home to the Crescent. Although two Moves surprises me. >Or would you like to ban that as well? :-) Not without seeing it, of course. If a powerful strategy can be beaten with an equally powerful counter-strategy, then it's precisely the sort of thing we're aiming for. But if the only way to overcome it is to be extremely lucky, or specifically play to beat that strategy, then yes, I'd probably like to see it banned. (I've been particularly impressed at Wizards of the Coast for banning rather a lot of the over-powerful Magic: The Gathering cards from recent expansions, a move which has crippled a lot of the boring two-turn-win decks and made tournament play less tiresome.) Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Graeme Jefferis Tue Mar 16 04:00:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1077 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 12:00:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO search.findmail.com) (207.138.41.144) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 12:00:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 4624 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Mar 1999 12:31:42 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by 207.138.41.144 with SMTP; 15 Mar 1999 12:31:42 -0000 Received: from vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28646 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:19:31 GMT Received: from cuba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@c... [146.227.102.128]) by vesta.cms.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7/H1.6) with ESMTP id MAA27161 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:08:06 GMT From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by cuba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id MAA09018 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:07:58 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:07:58 GMT Message-Id: <199903151207.MAA09018@c...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: /l6FDBcJUk4/9mRwzQkmGQ== Subject: MN: Finsbury Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies to those waiting for me in the Garden Lounge. A move will appear later today. -Grimace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 06:30:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1975 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 14:30:35 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 14:30:35 -0000 Received: from modem-124.niobium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.20.124] helo=my) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10MYs0-0000cE-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:01:33 +0000 Message-ID: <018101be6ef5$5611c2c0$ec11883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:03:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Three-Move Victories Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In an email I've already replied to, Paul enigmatically whispered:- >BTW, I have found two ways to win a game in the current ruleset (Y2W43) of >MN in two moves, only requiring the use of one black token to change lines. >Let me know if you want to see it played out. Having pondered a bit, there's a very neat little three-Move victory:- Kevan : [Home: Anywhere] Anywhere [Recycling] [Tottenham Court Road Wild] Kevan : [Wild] Tottenham Court Road (NT) [Purchasing Chocolate Bar] Kevan : [LV+3] [Eating Chocolate Bar] Mornington Crescent (NT) Two Reds, one Black, one Bronze. It hinges around the fact that Wilds don't affect Charge, and that the Crescent from Tottenham Court Road is, of course, +18. Tsk. Not that anyone would bother doing this at the start of a Game, of course, because an astute opponent would Wild to Tottenham Court Road during their own Turn, and be one step ahead. Wait a turn or two, though, and most Players will presumably have mucked up their Charges too much to take advantage of the shortcut. Hmm. Slightly alarming, particularly since it can be started from any valid Home Station. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 15 15:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 224 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Mar 1999 23:46:38 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 15 Mar 1999 23:46:38 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA27252; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma027014; Tue, 16 Mar 99 09:46:06 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:05 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F52@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, March 15, 1999 7:58 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > Just that you can't Token Run in addition to moving to Kings Cross - the two > are mutually exclusive, and as such Token Running isn't horrendously powerful. Hmmm. Do you mean the new or the old Token Run? And what was in the old one preventing moving to KXSP. (As an aside, does anyone actually mind me using Venbacker Notation for my station abbreviations?) > Oh, I do, I do. I merely question the profusion of clauses to the thing; why > should it be so awkward to pluck Silvers from the outer reaches, when it's > so easy to gather them in Zone 1? You have me there; but I can only say that I think that this therefore means we should loosen the restriction on Token Running (or whatever I called it now), rather than discarding it altogether. > I do? I merely say that Bulkheading has slight merit in its dramatic effect > (although such is usually more "Er, sorry, I Bulkheaded that ages ago, for > some obsolete reason; you'll have to replay" than "Ahaha, Mr Bond!"), but > becomes rather tiresome when (as in the Long Game) it just falls to whether > anyone remembers the Bulkhead and buzzes you. It's the sort of thing that > would work well if we were sat around a proper board, but doesn't translate > well to email, when you should be able to take in the state of the game from > a quick glance through the Token Table and the last few Plays. I understand your point, and I agree that the lack of suitable notation in the GSD (although I don't want a GSD whose header takes up three pages...) makes these things difficult. However, I thought that the reverse situation, that people be allowed to play token runs on the same terminus more than once in a game was a Bad Thing. > Not at all; with potentially-Closed Stations and Lines marked on the Map, > it's easy to see if your Move involves any, and the Crescent and Holy > Stations are exceptions which are easy enough to remember. I'd have a > problem were there an Action which Closed a Station for the rest of the Game > and expected Players to remember this, though. In some ways that's as much a problem for the other players as the player who tries to play through a closed interchange. The game can't rely totally on the player's honesty in their Turn (although it does have to rely heavily on this). I'm not saying people are cheats, I'm saying that sometimes we can't remember all the technicalities. I'm sure there have been instances where people have played turns that they know have been illegal but have not wanted to change their plans unless spotted. Naughty, but... (And we all know Ruttsborough was famous for token stealing; making illegal token claims and seeing if the other player raised it with the referees. The pressure on that other player, to question a dangerous man like Ruttsborough continuously through the game was high, and too many new players simply assumed that he must have _some_ justification. Of course, this was in the day when an illegal token claim would merely result in the loss of the token and a two-minute penalty. The naive IMCS had never really had to deal with anything like Ruttsborough...) Ultimately, as the process of me submitting interesting but unpopular proposals is reminding me, it's a Nomic as much as anything and player interaction is all. > It's beginning to trouble me a bit, as well; the Game does seem to be > tightening in around Zone 1 a lot - maybe it's time to reintroduce a way to > get actual Golds from the outer reaches? It's hard to see a way around that. Zone 1's heavy crosslinking is important; not only to MN but to IMCS and ISIHAC as well. I don't want control of Z1 to become crucial, and there are still Gambits and other methods of getting golds out in the boonies. (Look at Dunx's favourite opening). I think a few more Gambits combined with Token Running and maybe a way of collecting tokens for moving through large numbers of non-interchange stations (thus using the Bonanza action) will ensure things are evenly balanced. Again, the Nomic aspect comes in - if you think Zone 1 is too strong, do something to promote Outer Zones. If everyone agrees with your POV, things change. Sitting around and nuking other people's proposals with no comment doesn't further the ends of that particular game. > I'm just naturally averse to Rules which have too many words or clauses in, > really. The stopping of "various trickeries" such as Wilding seemed rather > superfluous - since these days it takes two Plastics to make a Green to > declare the Wild, and a Black to Move to it, I think anyone who bothers to > Wild for a Token Run deserves their prize. And the "once per Terminus", as I > say, bothers me as being something to remember - I don't want to have to > (particularly in the Long Game) read back through all previous Turns to > check a Play's legality. A simple "Token Running may only be performed if > the Player Moved to a Terminus during eir Movement Phase" clause would > probably slow things down just enough. You have me there. I suffer from the affliction of being supererogatory sometimes. People need to keep reminding me of this (and yes, the previous sentence was typed with a smile :-). But, IMHO, this is why amendments were included as proposal types. > I would, of course, dearly love to. I imagine it's a Charge trick? I've > never quite had the enthusiasm to sit down and do the maths for those, but > I'm sure there are some very simple few-move paths from a Home to the > Crescent. Although two Moves surprises me. They involve using the zero-cost Charge=18 trick to open MC, yes. This is what you get when you have a database with every station's Radius (so I can't claim that I thought of the stations, but I did think of how to find them). There are also methods of moving such that you can Wild across the map and then drop into MC, thus foiling potential blocks. Interestingly enough these methods seem to be intertwined with the fact that your home must be six stations from MC but wilds can close to three stations from MC... But enough speculation. > Not without seeing it, of course. If a powerful strategy can be beaten with > an equally powerful counter-strategy, then it's precisely the sort of thing > we're aiming for. But if the only way to overcome it is to be extremely > lucky, or specifically play to beat that strategy, then yes, I'd probably > like to see it banned. (I've been particularly impressed at Wizards of the > Coast for banning rather a lot of the over-powerful Magic: The Gathering > cards from recent expansions, a move which has crippled a lot of the boring > two-turn-win decks and made tournament play less tiresome.) The one way I can see to block both of these is to be lucky (you have to play before the player trying to two-move-win) and move immediately to block MC. Even then, if you lower your guard on MC for one moment the person's latent charge can get them in. They just need to circle close enough... Anyway, have a good one, whatever strength you like, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu0PF8tA22MsBS7iEQJg6QCfUWl29hqjFK993D4TJ0bUKKMmmCsAmwf2 pkB8MaRHymWqBgB1TDRv8Vpa =lJx8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 15 15:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 230 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Mar 1999 23:46:39 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 15 Mar 1999 23:46:39 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA27283; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma027193; Tue, 16 Mar 99 09:46:25 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:25 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F53@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Three-Move Victories Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 16, 1999 1:04 AM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > Kevan : [Home: Anywhere] Anywhere [Recycling] [Tottenham Court Road Wild] > Kevan : [Wild] Tottenham Court Road (NT) [Purchasing Chocolate Bar] > Kevan : [LV+3] [Eating Chocolate Bar] Mornington Crescent (NT) Very nice. This has the same consequence as my other moves - that all the player has to do from there is move normally and, automatically, their charge will be equal to MC's when they get there. Shunting would be a logical counter-strategy. Nice one, Kev! (Incidentally, with a bit more name-crunching, Spiron has worked out that there are 2,508 possible Mount of Olives Gambit combinations. It doesn't yet have the information to work out how many of those are actually doable without a Wild or similar...) Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu0PL8tA22MsBS7iEQKi1gCeOvFJzNCNnP7fANGjDaSzqBKHPHYAoPg+ jhv8N2WiIMNcMyW9CSj4mCxj =yejl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From morbidharvester@h... Mon Mar 15 18:15:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10491 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 02:15:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.152) by 207.138.41.143 with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 02:15:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 10335 invoked by uid 505); 16 Mar 1999 02:15:21 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: morbidharvester@h... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:15:21 -0000 Subject: MN: Xoom have succumbed to advertising.. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Says it all really. It's in the form of an annoying frame that clings to the top of your browser. Ick. It's not too obtrusive, though, and I still find the site reasonably quick. Probably worth sticking with for now rather than moving house and causing more dead-link problems. -Graeme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 15 19:14:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7189 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 03:14:03 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 03:14:03 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA07281; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:13:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma007261; Tue, 16 Mar 99 13:13:57 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:13:56 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F56@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:13:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Xoom have succumbed to advertising.. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, March 16, 1999 12:15 PM, morbidharvester@h... [SMTP:morbidharvester@h...] wrote: > Says it all really. It's in the form of an annoying frame that clings to > the top of your browser. Ick. What, more than eGroups? > It's not too obtrusive, though, and I still find the site reasonably > quick. Probably worth sticking with for now rather than moving house and > causing more dead-link problems. Bah. Considering what us Geocitizens have to put up with it's nothing. But this brings to mind the talk by Matthew of hosting the MN lists on his machine. I've just (stupidly) realised that MN's web pages could also be hosted there. Must make an enquiry on the MCD-L. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Mar 15 22:41:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 290 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 06:41:51 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 06:41:51 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA08433 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:41:50 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:44:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >(As an aside, does anyone actually mind me using Venbacker Notation for my >station abbreviations?) Not me... in fact, I was wondering where you got them. Is there a net-accessable list somewhere? --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 15 23:42:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21307 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 07:42:35 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 07:42:35 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA08900; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:42:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma008871; Tue, 16 Mar 99 17:42:04 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:42:03 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F5A@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:42:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, March 16, 1999 4:44 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > Not me... in fact, I was wondering where you got them. Is there a > net-accessable list somewhere? *shamed blush* The codes are my own invention, after an old happening at York. I'll post a text file of them on my pages, but the simple formula is: C = Circus CT = City EA = East GR = Green HL = Hill LA = Lane NO = North PK = Park RD = Road SO = South ST = Street X = Cross WE = West Other than that, remove vowels, try to get two-word names sharing the four letters equally (e.g. Gloucester Road - GLRD) and a few other niceness conventions. Full table at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/mc-stations.html Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 01:04:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16191 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 09:04:08 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 09:04:08 -0000 Received: from modem-20.perium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.47.148] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Mpkl-0005mU-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:03:22 +0000 Message-ID: <005d01be6f8c$7646ab40$274c883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:00:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Xoom have succumbed to advertising.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Says it all really. It's in the form of an annoying frame that clings to the top of your browser. Ick. I'd heard whispers of it. With conspiratorial cover-up drama worthy of Mulder himself, I happened to chance across them testing it a couple of months ago; attempting to download the source of a page from the Nomic pages, I got a frame index, with an invisibly thin sliver of frame above the main window. Tsk. >It's not too obtrusive, though, and I still find the site reasonably quick. I suppose frames aren't too bad from a speed perspective; I just fear how much it might muck up bookmarking and (as with Ask Jeeves) make browsing to other pages very annoying. Nowhere near as dire as Geocities, anyway, as Paul says. Recently moved to Xoom himself, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 01:41:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28728 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 09:40:56 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 09:40:56 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA20619 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:40:54 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 09:40:54 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA05054; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:41:20 GMT Message-Id: <199903160941.JAA05054@uksn82> Date: 16 Mar 99 09:38:48 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-133-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 16-Mar-99 07:42 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Full table at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/mc-stations.html Interesting... I don't know if we'd want to formally recognise this notation= (after all, Venbacker notation still isn't popular amongst the MC cognoscenti on the tournamet circuit despite its use being mandated by the IMCS), but it= seems to be a useful tool for noting the routes taken. I have a few comments on the table itself, though (mostly from a rabidly MN perspective, for which I apologise in advance): 1. the Venbacker numbers seem to mostly agree, but there are a few omissions= where spelling or (usually) punctuation is at variance with that used on the= map. The ones I've spotted are Barons Court; Canons Park; Colliers Wood; Devons Road; Gallions Reach; Golders Green; Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3; Parsons Green; Queens Park; Rayners Lane. Shepherd's Bush is also missing, but I have more to say about that next... 2. why have the Shepherd's Bush stations been given different Venbacker codes? Surely these two are adequately distinguished by use of Line Code? 3. Escalators - Bank (for Monument) and its reverse are represented, but not= the escalator links between Tower Hill/Tower Gateway and Bow Church/Bow Road. Good stuff, though. Particularly like the Hats. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 03:34:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3244 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 11:34:42 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 11:34:42 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA10198 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:34:39 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 11:34:39 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA18020; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:35:05 GMT Message-Id: <199903161135.LAA18020@uksn82> Date: 16 Mar 99 11:32:37 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Emergency Proposal 031 - Narg-u-Meant [Multiple] { A little tweak to the Narg Clamp - rendering it Post-Move to fit in with all the other Clamps, as I presume was intended originally (this as a fix rather than an abuse - I won't Buzz Paul for an illegal Clamping, the moment this passes), and altering the wording of the Clamp itself to permit "abnormal" Moves such as Wilding (mentioned in the comments of original proposal as an "acceptable escape", even if it actually wasn't) and intuitive sidesteps such as Walking. Selfishly regarded as an Emergency because I've just been Narged in Game 15 and have realised how broken it is (worrying how true that is, that you never really analyse things enough until they've happened), but since it's such a cheap and easy Player lock, I think it needs fixing sharply. } 1. "Narg!" in Surprise and Alarm [Amendment] Make "[Narging ]" a post-Move Action. 2. How Many Nargonds Round The Pond? [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.4.27 (The Narg Clamp explained) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Narging ]", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. A Narged Player gains a "Narg Clamp" Possession. Narg Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. If a Player is carrying a Narg Clamp, e may only move horizontally or vertically; if eir Move involves passing along a section of Line which was not completely horizontal or vertical, that Move is Illegal (unless their Piece is not considered to pass through Stations this Turn). A Player carrying a Narg Clamp may not Move to or through Mornington Crescent, nor may e perform any Actions which require the expenditure of a Blue Token. A Player may destroy a single Narg Clamp in eir Possession, by performing the Action of "[Anti-Narg]" whilst at Tottenham Court Road. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Raised by Kevan, 16/3/99 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 09:36:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28114 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 17:35:58 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 17:35:58 -0000 Received: from modem-56.perium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.47.184] helo=my) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Mxky-0001dD-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:35:57 +0000 Message-ID: <000301be6fd4$0e3d4980$b82f883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:38:08 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Mornington Nomic Companion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to announce an update to that Charge Delta calculator Windows accessory I penned the other day; I've just expanded it to include Current searching (a la the Javascript on the Web page), as well as a handy Venbacker lookup. It's been retitled the "Mornington Nomic Companion", and despite still being a bit of a mess, it's available from my Web page. (If any of you are even using Windows.) Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 10:10:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13656 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 18:10:34 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 18:10:34 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA28893 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:10:32 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 18:10:32 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA19815; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:10:58 GMT Message-Id: <199903161810.SAA19815@uksn82> Date: 16 Mar 99 18:07:26 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-137-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 16-Mar-99 17:38 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Mornington Nomic Companion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Kevan. I'll retitle the link from the MN web page this evening. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 15:27:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23134 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 23:27:14 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 23:27:14 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA16413; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:27:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016228; Wed, 17 Mar 99 09:26:47 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:26:47 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F5B@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:24:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: the Token Running issue. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:39 PM, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > Interesting... I don't know if we'd want to formally recognise this notation > (after all, Venbacker notation still isn't popular amongst the MC cognoscenti > on the tournamet circuit despite its use being mandated by the IMCS), but it > seems to be a useful tool for noting the routes taken. Well, I use it as a short-hand - that doesn't mean I'm going to propose to bring it into force. The IMCS, BTW, have never actually made its use mandatory; there's an interesting clause in book 12 (that most people I've spoken to, even on the amateur circuit) that allows the player to use their own mnemonics rather than the standard IMCS if they find this preferable. Most people's 'mnemonics' just happen to coincide with the names of the stations. (I feel like a real fraud with this, actually - calling them Venbacker Codes and implying their use by the IMCS is one thing for my own benefit, but when it might be seen as some sort of justification for their use, I back off. I have no desire to see everyone using them just because I say so - if people find them useful, then they're there, but no more than that. *Blush*) > 1. the Venbacker numbers seem to mostly agree, but there are a few omissions > where spelling or (usually) punctuation is at variance with that used on the > map. The ones I've spotted are Barons Court; Canons Park; Colliers Wood; > Devons Road; Gallions Reach; Golders Green; Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3; Parsons > Green; Queens Park; Rayners Lane. Shepherd's Bush is also missing, but I have > more to say about that next... Yeah, I know. The answer to this is that these are all my own preferences for the spellings of the stations. You'll also notice that the table includes the North London, Thameslink and that bit which goes from Moorgate to Finsbury Park via Essex Road, H&I and Drayton Park. That's because, when I was entering stations, I was using an old 1994 tube map that included these stations. I then filled in the Venbacker Codes from there. Likewise, with the two Shepherd's Bush stations and the Bank / Monument escalator variations. I can only apologise by saying they're my own invention, not a more formal result from an organised decision process. I was also rushing to get home and didn't stop to tidy the table up. Apologies once again. The Hat column was me trying to make life easier for myself. I've also generated queries to produce Mount of Olives Gambit combinations, but that's 2,000 records or so and I think people can work them out on their own. Anyway, have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu5bjstA22MsBS7iEQLiNwCg2EGw+LnHKzntwc0lzmdQdufwjVAAoPro vwDIG88pl6c1Jh07k5UP0ZOc =te/+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 15:27:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23136 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 23:27:14 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 23:27:14 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA16434; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:27:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016286; Wed, 17 Mar 99 09:26:56 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:26:55 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F5D@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:26:12 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Mornington Nomic Companion Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, March 17, 1999 3:38 AM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > Just to announce an update to that Charge Delta calculator Windows accessory > I penned the other day; I've just expanded it to include Current searching > (a la the Javascript on the Web page), as well as a handy Venbacker lookup. > It's been retitled the "Mornington Nomic Companion", and despite still being > a bit of a mess, it's available from my Web page. May I say it's already been useful, Kevan. And so neat, too. Thank you. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu5b9ctA22MsBS7iEQKndgCg92LHqsNlFV/x2+5cYletQa1SqVUAn3zf lJO6mWW0tsH/VFAphZB54lks =d2O+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 15:27:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23140 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 23:27:15 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 23:27:15 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA16441; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:27:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016288; Wed, 17 Mar 99 09:26:56 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:26:55 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F5C@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:26:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Emergency Proposal 031 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:33 PM, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > Emergency Proposal 031 - Narg-u-Meant [Multiple] I'll vote For this. Seems fair, I suppose. (I actually didn't mean this as a loophole but once spotted it was hard to resist :-) Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu5b68tA22MsBS7iEQJV9QCg9NgmJ/L1KHwsvW00Kc+QOmeaEoQAmwem /Zm6D90rpbEJswhFWtPCyUNc =8gf2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 16 15:34:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26746 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 23:33:59 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 23:33:59 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10N3LR-000Era-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:33:57 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:34:17 GMT Message-ID: <36efe432.5304107@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 45 - Voting Results for Week 44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 634 -- void -- [a] 635 Prime Time 3 1 1 3 Passes 636 Flag Capturing and Dropping 2 1 2 3 Fails 637 Finsbury Option Lines 3 1 1 3 Passes 638 Line Code Rewrite 1 1 3 3 Fails 639 No Zone Bonus for Passing 1 1 3 3 Fails 640 Spherical Projection 3 2 - 3 Passes 641 Dolly's Feeling Better... - 1 4 3 Fails [b] 642 MC On The Buses 4 1 - 3 Passes 643 Playing With Dollis 3 - 2 3 Passes 644 Recall Collect 3 1 2 3 Passes 645 Rewrite My Fire 2 1 2 3 Fails ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 635 (PaulWay) - FOR FOR - FOR AGA - PAS -=20 636 (Jonathan) - FOR AGA - PAS AGA - FOR -=20 637 (Jonathan) - AGA FOR - PAS FOR - FOR -=20 638 (Jonathan - AGA AGA - PAS AGA - FOR -=20 639 (Jonathan) - AGA AGA - PAS AGA - FOR -=20 640 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR PAS - FOR -=20 641 (PaulWay) - AGA AGA - AGA AGA - PAS -=20 642 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR -=20 643 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR FOR - AGA -=20 644 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA FOR - AGA -=20 645 (Dunx) - PAS AGA - FOR AGA - FOR -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 28 4 0 18 72 16 12 7 Halved: 14 2 9 36 6 3 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +5 +0 +7 +10 +3 +0 AGA Votes: I -2 -0 I -9 -4 I -5 -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +3 n +3 +0 n +3 +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 -6 a -0 -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 +2 t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: v +0 +0 v +0 +0 v +0 +0 e e e Repeal: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Rewrite: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +0 +4 +3 +0 = [c] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +9 +3 +0 - +6 +4 +0 Final Kudos: 11 23 5 0 0 39 16 10 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] counting failure again, I'm afraid. I'll be automating all this = nonsense soon. I also diddled PaulWay out of a Proposal last Week - I've given em = four in Week 45 as recompense. Complaints to the usual address. [b] sorry Paul - I didn't see your correction until I was doing these = Voting Results. I'm afraid it would have been a bit late, anyway. [c] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - PaulWay (Prime Time) CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan (MC on the Buses) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 16 15:34:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26763 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 23:34:02 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 23:34:02 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10N3LS-000Era-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:33:58 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:34:19 GMT Message-ID: <36f0e463.5352632@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Five -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 646 - When in range, do as the Rangers do [Enactment] Any Action that requires the Player to be adjacent to another Player or object may also be played if the desired target is at the station as the Player. In other words, adjacency for Actions is implied by co-location. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 647 - Time keeps on slippin'... [Multiple] Repeal 1.5.8 (Moving and Shaking) Reword 1.3.0 to read: The Game of Mornington Crescent is divided into Turns, each taken by different Player, in sequence. During each Turn, a Player may make a Move, perform Actions and collect Tokens. Moves, Plays, Rounds and Turns shall be defined as follows in combination with those definitions already extant: * A Round is a sequence of Turns in which all Active Players Play. An effect which is said to endure for one Round lasts from the point at = which the effect begins until the same point in the next Round (Turn Phases to = be rounded up). Specifically, if something begins during the Post-Move Phase of a = Player's Turn and lasts for one Round, then that something stops at the end of the Post-Move phase in that Player's next Turn or (if that Player Resigns or goes Inactive) the point after which eir Turn would have been. * A Player's Turn consists of the total set of changes that a Player = makes to the GSD when e takes eir Turn, including eir Play. This may be = referred to simply as 'a Turn'. * A Player's Play is the section written against eir name at the bottom = of the GSD which includes the Player's Piece's Move and any Actions played. This may be referred to simply as 'a Play'. * A Piece's Move is its normal motion along LU lines, excluding all Action-related changes to position. This may be referred to simply as 'a Move' Those Rules defining Line Velocity and changes of Line apply only to the Piece's Move unless specifically stated otherwise. {A slight reword, but mostly done to get all the parts of play time under the one Rule.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 648 - Contracrostipunctus [Amendment] Rewrite Rule 1.5.0 to read: There are three ways for a Player's Piece Move to be Valid: 1) If the Move is either the word "Pass" or the word "Timeout", then this is known as a Passed Move. The Move is Valid and the Piece stays at its current Station. 2) If the Move uses one of the following Actions (only one of these = allowed per Turn): * Home (Rule 1.12.1) * Wild (Rule 1.11.1) * Marmalade Sandwiches (Rule 1.4.16) * Striling (Rule 1.7.12) * Stubbery (Rule 1.7.33) * Walking (Rule 1.7.10) In this case, the Move is known as a Special Move. The Move is Valid, = and the Piece is moved directly to the specified Station without passing through any other Stations. 3) Otherwise, the Move is known as a Standard Move. All Stations in the Map currently under play (by default, the Map defined in Rule 1.17.1) are Valid. The Player must then check through all the Rules and checks in = the following list to determine if any one of them makes the Move Invalid.=20 Once the Move is Invalid, it cannot be revalidated by another Rule. 1. LV Checks * If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current Piece Location is not precisely the same as that Player's LV, the Move becomes Invalid. 2. Trivial Fares * Line Changing (Rule 1.5.11) 3. Blocks, Impediments and Gaps * Blocks (Rule 1.9.1) * Damaged Stations (Rule 1.11.3) * The Podume of Infinite Darkness (Rule 1.4.24) * Closed Lines and Stations (Rule 1.13.4) * Other Players' Home Stations (Rule 1.12.3) * Power Failures (Rule 1.7.8) * Maelberg Variances (Rule 1.7.17) * Gapminding (Rule 1.7.7) * Bridges (Rule 1.8.3) * Circle Line Polarisation (Rule 1.8.5) * Construction Lines (Rule 1.5.10) * Heathrow Traversal (Rule 1.5.7) 4. Loops and Cascades * Dollis Hill Loop (Rule 1.8.1) * Parks and Greens Cascade (Rule 1.8.2) * Charge Spiral (Rule 1.19.5) 5. First Turn * If this is the Player's first Turn in the Game, eir Home Station is a Valid Move and all other Stations are Invalid. 6. Unused Actions * If the Actioning Player performed a pre-Move Action to make a particular type of Move Valid, and did not play such a Move, eir Move becomes Invalid. Stations "passed through" during a Move are all of those along the route which the Player's Piece has taken, excepting the Station it started and ended the Move at. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 649 - Slight Chateau d'Eau fix [Amendment] Amend Rule 2.7.11 to change the reference to not counting the section of line 6 to refer to the corect line 2. It's line 2 that extends west of Charles-de-Gaulle Etoile, not line 6 as is stated in the Rule. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 650 - We Are Normal And We Want Our Freedom [Multiple] { Amending the questionable references to "normal" Moves. } 1. Move =3D Movement Motion [Amendment] In Rule 1.5.8 (Moving and Shaking), reword the third bullet point to:- * A Piece's Move is its motion during the Movement Phase of a = Player's Turn. This may be referred to simply as 'a Move'. 2. Deviant Straddling [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.6 (Straddling Nancy), replace "A Player may, after Moving eir Piece normally," with "After Moving, a Player may". 3. Conservation of Energy [Amendment] In Rule 1.19.2 (Charge), replace "Charge is modified by normal Piece = movement" with "Charge is modified by any Piece movement that takes place during a Player's Movement Phase" { Wilding and whatever else should have the same effect on Charge as a = Move "merely" affected by LV+X or a Baguette, if only to stop the easy abuse of the Charge Win. Although whilst on the subject... } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 651 - Electroplate Blues [Amendment] { The fiddly maths of a Charge victory have always troubled me, and = Paul's talk of a two-turn victory only fuel these troubles further. The idea = of a sudden surprise win is very unappealing, particularly since the only = real defence against it is to sit down and do some trivial sums for every Player, every Turn, just to check (and even then, you probably won't notice anything suspicious until it's too late). I know we've not had a spate of ridiculous victories through Charging = to the Crescent, but I suspect (and such is the case for me, at least) = that it's just a matter of apathy; I can't really be bothered to work out a suitable sequence of Moves. Still. A Proposed replacement - the ability to turn Bronze Tokens into Golds, if your Charge is at least fifty more than everyone else's. I = think this is a reasonable implementation - bearing in mind how awkward it is= to get Bronzes in the first few Turns, quick victories shouldn't be an = issue, and once someone starts Electroplating, it shouldn't be too hard for at least one person to up their Charge enough to stop it. (And the Drone = will most likely remain at zero for a long time, anyway.) In a roundabout way, actually, this acts as a Token Running substitute = - a way to collect Golds which requires Players to move away from the = centre of the board... } 1. Electroplate Blues [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Electroplating] Neut 1.7.x -1 Br +1 Go = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the "[Electroplating]" Action, if eir Charge is = at least fifty more than that of every other Player. Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains a Gold Token. 2. Run Away! Run Away! [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.19.3 (Charge of the Heavy Brigade). -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 652 - Through a Podume Darkly [Amendment] { The reworked Podume of Infinite Darkness from the other Week had some nice ideas, but an alarming number of dangerous wordings, and quite a few over-complicated aspects. For your perusal, a new slant on the thing - similar in implementation, but with a few differing effects. } 1. Darker Side of the Force [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.4.24 (The Podume of Infinite Darkness) to:- There exists a Unique, Indestructable Possession known as the Podume = of Infinite Darkness, which may be present on the Map; a PoID's presence = is indicated as a Token Stack with the text "PoID", at that Station (the PoID is not, however, a Token, and it may coexist with a Token Stack).= It may be placed on a Station or picked up from that Station (with the Actions of [PoID on ] and [Collecting PoID] respectively) by = any Player who has passed through that Station during eir Turn, or who = rests at it. The PoID may also be Shunted as if it were a Token Stack, using the name "PoID". If there is no PoID in play, any Player may perform the Action of "[Forging PoID]" to bring the PoID into play, in eir Possession, provided that e is not located at a Holy Station, and that Game Time = is outside of Peak Hours. If performed at midnight, this Action's cost is halved. If a Player is carrying the Podume of Infinite Darkness, dark forces protect em from the attentions of other Players; if a Player's Move involves passing through or Moving to a Station which contains a = Player who carries the Podume, that Move is Illegal. All power comes at a price, however - at the end of each of the Turns of a PoID-carrying Player, e should select two Tokens from those e is carrying (selecting as many non-Black Tokens as possible), and replace them with Black Tokens. If a Player carrying the Podume of Infinite Darkness ever passes = through or rests at a Holy Station, or the Podume itself rests at a Holy = Station, the Podume is instantly destroyed. If the Podume of Infinite Darkness rests at a Station, all Players act as if they were carrying it. In addition, at the start of each = Player's Turn, the top Token of every Token Stack is replaced with a Black = Token. If the Podume should rest at Mornington Crescent, its effects are worsened; Tokens are destroyed rather than being blackened. In = addition, the Player responsible for placing the Podume at Mornington Crescent should should roll a single 295-sided die after submitting each of eir Turns. The next Player to take eir Turn should look this number up on the Venbacker Table; if it equates to a Holy Station, nothing happens. Otherwise, the relevant Station is wracked by a terrible explosion, = with the effect of a Suspect Package being detonated at that Station. If the Podume is ever at Mornington Crescent and there are no Tokens left in the Game, the Game is abandoned with no Winner (all Players = are considered to have Lost). 2. Dropped Action [Amendment] Add the following Action (for it seems to be missing):- = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain [1] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [PoID on ] Neut 1.4.24 And make "[Collecting PoID]" a Neutral Action. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 16 18:05:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10947 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 02:05:55 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 02:05:55 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA19579; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:05:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019399; Wed, 17 Mar 99 12:05:27 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:05:26 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F5F@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:05:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 641 Dolly's Feeling Better... - 1 4 3 Fails [b] 641 (PaulWay) - AGA AGA - AGA AGA - PAS - Once again, I have to ask - was this just because of the mix-up on the Dollis Escape or are people that determined to have the Dollis Hill rules as they stand now? *sigh* It's times like this that I wonder why I try to fix things. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 16 22:39:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31053 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 06:39:13 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 06:39:13 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA20298 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:39:12 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:41:39 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Emergency Proposal 031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Emergency Proposal 031 - Narg-u-Meant [Multiple] For --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 16 22:52:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3402 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 06:52:46 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 06:52:46 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA21473 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:52:42 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:55:08 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 647 - Time keeps on slippin'... [Multiple] ... >* A Piece's Move is its normal motion along LU lines, excluding all >Action-related changes to position. This may be referred to simply as 'a >Move' >Proposal 648 - Contracrostipunctus [Amendment] ... >2) If the Move uses one of the following Actions (only one of these allowed >per Turn): >* Home (Rule 1.12.1) >* Wild (Rule 1.11.1) >* Marmalade Sandwiches (Rule 1.4.16) >* Striling (Rule 1.7.12) >* Stubbery (Rule 1.7.33) >* Walking (Rule 1.7.10) >In this case, the Move is known as a Special Move. The Move is Valid, and >the Piece is moved directly to the specified Station without passing >through any other Stations. What do we do if both of these pass? 647: I [Walk] to a Station on the same Line. I don't gain the +1 Bk for same-line-ness, because it's an 'Action-related change to position', not a Move. 648: Same situation. I do gain the +1 Bk, because it is a Valid Move that doesn't require changing Line. (Rule 1.4.20:) +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing a Move which does not involve | +1 Black | | a change of Line as part of the Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 16 23:00:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6532 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 07:00:07 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 07:00:07 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA22117 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:00:06 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:02:33 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If a Player is carrying the Podume of Infinite Darkness, dark forces > protect em from the attentions of other Players; if a Player's Move > involves passing through or Moving to a Station which contains a Player > who carries the Podume, that Move is Illegal. > I prefer the version where you can't be targeted at all by other players. Simply not being able to move to or though the affected player's station still doesn't protect them from clamps, double-shunts, etc... If the Dark Forces can't protect you entirely, what good are they? --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 16 23:03:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7697 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 07:03:02 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 07:03:02 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA22383 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:03:00 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:05:27 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> If a Player is carrying the Podume of Infinite Darkness, dark forces >> protect em from the attentions of other Players; if a Player's Move >> involves passing through or Moving to a Station which contains a Player >> who carries the Podume, that Move is Illegal. >> > >I prefer the version where you can't be targeted at all by other players. >Simply not being able to move to or though the affected player's station >still doesn't protect them from clamps, double-shunts, etc... If the Dark >Forces can't protect you entirely, what good are they? BTW, I quite like the random explosions. In fact, I think they should occur as long as the PoID is not carried by a Player, whether it's at MC or not. The forces of Evil get nasty when they don't have someone in particular to leech off of :) Oh, and this week I resolve to remember to vote! --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 16 23:12:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11350 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 07:12:02 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 07:12:02 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA23097 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:12:00 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:14:27 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >641 Dolly's Feeling Better... - 1 4 3 Fails [b] >641 (PaulWay) - AGA AGA - AGA AGA - PAS - > >Once again, I have to ask - was this just because of the mix-up on the >Dollis Escape or are people that determined to have the Dollis Hill rules as >they stand now? > >*sigh* It's times like this that I wonder why I try to fix things. It would be nice it there were some way to discuss and modify proposals before voting on them, like the Green Paper / White Paper system in Paranomic... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 00:30:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8519 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 08:30:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 08:30:07 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA19884 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:30:05 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 08:30:04 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA26559; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:30:31 GMT Message-Id: <199903170830.IAA26559@uksn82> Date: 17 Mar 99 08:28:28 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-149-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 17-Mar-99 07:14 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >It would be nice it there were some way to discuss and modify proposals >before voting on them, like the Green Paper / White Paper system in >Paranomic... There have been attempts to introduce a system of that type here (Public Proposals), but they had to be withdrawn due to general apathy. It was also deemed to be futile, since if you have an idea you want to discuss, then there's nothing to stop you posting it to the list for comments. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 02:50:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23721 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 10:50:18 -0000 Received: from mail10.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.214) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 10:50:18 -0000 Received: from modem-14.mifepristone.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.79.142] helo=my) by mail10.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NDtv-0006j6-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:50:16 +0000 Message-ID: <000401be7064$89b2f5c0$8e4f883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:05:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Once again, I have to ask - was this just because of the mix-up on the >Dollis Escape or are people that determined to have the Dollis Hill rules as >they stand now? Having to choose between "Dolly's Feeling Better" and "Playing with Dollis", the latter seemed preferable, being (strangely) more in line with how I thought the Loop should be amended. As a matter of interest, what problems remain, in your eyes (or anyone else's, for that matter), with the Loop rules? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 02:50:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23776 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 10:50:23 -0000 Received: from mail10.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.214) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 10:50:23 -0000 Received: from modem-14.mifepristone.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.79.142] helo=my) by mail10.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NDu0-0006j6-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:50:21 +0000 Message-ID: <000601be7064$8ca4be80$8e4f883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:26:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It would be nice it there were some way to discuss and modify proposals >before voting on them, like the Green Paper / White Paper system in >Paranomic... As Dunx says, the insanely complex "Player Proposals" were written off as too much effort, when you could just discuss whatever you wanted on the mailing list. I think the current Proposal system handles things reasonably well - if your Proposal is shot down because you've worded some of it really badly, you can repropose it again the next Week, repaired. Yes, you'll have wasted a Proposal and lost some Kudos, but I think such a penalty is reasonable, giving Players reason to proofread and think about their Proposals themselves before submitting them. As I may have said before, I think it might be a helpful thing if Players who voted against Proposals had to give a few-word summary of their reasons; both for feedback to the Proposer, and to make people think about their Votes a bit more. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 02:50:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23795 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 10:50:25 -0000 Received: from mail10.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.214) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 10:50:25 -0000 Received: from modem-14.mifepristone.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.79.142] helo=my) by mail10.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NDu2-0006j6-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:50:23 +0000 Message-ID: <000701be7064$8da083a0$8e4f883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:39:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 646 - When in range, do as the Rangers do [Enactment] > >Any Action that requires the Player to be adjacent to another Player or >object may also be played if the desired target is at the station as the >Player. In other words, adjacency for Actions is implied by co-location. Hmm. Superfluous now that Clamps have been updated, I think. If "objects" don't include Stations, then it just mucks up Running Straddles a bit - if "objects" *do* include Stations, it makes Blocking insanely powerful (since you can just Block your current Location and move from it next Turn). We're better off just saying "adjacent or co-located" if such a case is needed, I think (such as Hat-Knocking's current implementation). >Proposal 647 - Time keeps on slippin'... [Multiple] A good point, nicely executed. >Proposal 648 - Contracrostipunctus [Amendment] Certainly the way to be heading with Move Validity, I think - I imagine we could eventually get it down to a load of rules that say "Such-and-such a Move is Invalid" and a few that say "Such-and-such a Move is Valid, taking precedence over any Rules which say otherwise". Hmm. This implementation seems quite nice, although the list of Invalidators shouldn't include the First-Turn thing. Arguably it could be reduced to just "If any Rules make your Move Invalid, then it is so." - although the list was intended as a checklist, does anyone actually use it as such? Dollis Hill rears its head again, too; it's a Validator as much as an Invalidator. Hmm. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 03:19:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 724 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 11:18:32 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 11:18:32 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA13767 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:18:28 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 11:18:27 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA08057; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:18:52 GMT Message-Id: <199903171118.LAA08057@uksn82> Date: 17 Mar 99 11:16:33 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-151-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 17-Mar-99 10:05 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Once again, I have to ask - was this just because of the mix-up on the >>Dollis Escape or are people that determined to have the Dollis Hill rules as >>they stand now? >Having to choose between "Dolly's Feeling Better" and "Playing with Dollis", >the latter seemed preferable, being (strangely) more in line with how I >thought the Loop should be amended. I didn't think there was anything particularly broken with them in the first= place. Whilst I like the definition of loop by Piece location rather than Move, I still don't see why a Player who has a high LV when a DH loop is about to start should be drawn into it. Still, it's in the rules now - obviously not immutable, but just have to deal with it. >As a matter of interest, what problems remain, in your eyes (or anyone >else's, for that matter), with the Loop rules? Well, aside from my complaint about Dollis Escape, I'm unhapy with the current lack of generality in the loop rules. Dollis should obviously always= have a special place in any loop system, but we could do with something which will enable local loops, two (or more) station loops, and so on. You may gather I've had some ideas in this direction, although they're too formless to be published, however informally. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 05:00:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9127 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Mar 1999 13:00:38 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 13:00:38 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA26126 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:00:35 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 13:00:35 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA19918; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:01:01 GMT Message-Id: <199903171301.NAA19918@uksn82> Date: 17 Mar 99 12:57:47 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 031 Passes Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ORCL_24726299_0_0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --=_ORCL_24726299_0_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Emergency Proposal 031 - Narg-u-Meant [Multiple] { A little tweak to the Narg Clamp - rendering it Post-Move to fit in with all the other Clamps, as I presume was intended originally (this as a fix rather than an abuse - I won't Buzz Paul for an illegal Clamping, the moment this passes), and altering the wording of the Clamp itself to permit "abnormal" Moves such as Wilding (mentioned in the comments of original proposal as an "acceptable escape", even if it actually wasn't) and intuitive sidesteps such as Walking. Selfishly regarded as an Emergency because I've just been Narged in Game 15 and have realised how broken it is (worrying how true that is, that you never really analyse things enough until they've happened), but since it's such a cheap and easy Player lock, I think it needs fixing sharply. } 1. "Narg!" in Surprise and Alarm [Amendment] Make "[Narging ]" a post-Move Action. 2. How Many Nargonds Round The Pond? [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.4.27 (The Narg Clamp explained) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Narging ]", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. A Narged Player gains a "Narg Clamp" Possession. Narg Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. If a Player is carrying a Narg Clamp, e may only move horizontally or vertically; if eir Move involves passing along a section of Line which was not completely horizontal or vertical, that Move is Illegal (unless their Piece is not considered to pass through Stations this Turn). A Player carrying a Narg Clamp may not Move to or through Mornington Crescent, nor may e perform any Actions which require the expenditure of a Blue Token. A Player may destroy a single Narg Clamp in eir Possession, by performing the Action of "[Anti-Narg]" whilst at Tottenham Court Road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Raised by Kevan, 16/3/99 Dunx, PaulWay and RiffRaff voted FOR - it Passed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ZZX= X eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com --=_ORCL_24726299_0_0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 content-type: message/rfc822 Date: 16 Mar 99 11:32:37 From:"Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To:l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject:MN: Emergency Proposal 031 Reply-to:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d@egroups.com Return-Path: Received:from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com by uks447 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17815; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:37:49 GMT Received:from uksn98.uk.oracle.com (uksn98.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.67]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11796 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:37:21 GMT Received:from mc.egroups.com ([207.138.41.138]) by uksn98.uk.oracle.com via smtpd (for ukaa04.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.99]) with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 11:37:21 UT Received:from [127.0.0.1] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Mar 1999 11:34:44 -0000 Mailing-List:contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List:l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL:http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Delivered-To:listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received:(qmail 3244 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Mar 1999 11:34:42 -0000 Received:from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 11:34:42 -0000 Received:from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA10198 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:34:39 GMT Received:from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 11:34:39 UT Received:by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA18020; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:35:05 GMT Message-Id:<199903161135.LAA18020@uksn82> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type:text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding:quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Emergency Proposal 031 - Narg-u-Meant [Multiple] { A little tweak to the Narg Clamp - rendering it Post-Move to fit in with all the other Clamps, as I presume was intended originally (this as a fix rather than an abuse - I won't Buzz Paul for an illegal Clamping, the moment this passes), and altering the wording of the Clamp itself to permit "abnormal" Moves such as Wilding (mentioned in the comments of original proposal as an "acceptable escape", even if it actually wasn't) and intuitive sidesteps such as Walking. Selfishly regarded as an Emergency because I've just been Narged in Game 15 and have realised how broken it is (worrying how true that is, that you never really analyse things enough until they've happened), but since it's such a cheap and easy Player lock, I think it needs fixing sharply. } 1. "Narg!" in Surprise and Alarm [Amendment] Make "[Narging ]" a post-Move Action. 2. How Many Nargonds Round The Pond? [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.4.27 (The Narg Clamp explained) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Narging ]", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. A Narged Player gains a "Narg Clamp" Possession. Narg Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. If a Player is carrying a Narg Clamp, e may only move horizontally or vertically; if eir Move involves passing along a section of Line which was not completely horizontal or vertical, that Move is Illegal (unless their Piece is not considered to pass through Stations this Turn). A Player carrying a Narg Clamp may not Move to or through Mornington Crescent, nor may e perform any Actions which require the expenditure of a Blue Token. A Player may destroy a single Narg Clamp in eir Possession, by performing the Action of "[Anti-Narg]" whilst at Tottenham Court Road. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Raised by Kevan, 16/3/99 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Internet FileZone: Always FREE! Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net, from any Web browser. http://offers.egroups.com/click/235/0 eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com --=_ORCL_24726299_0_0-- From Wed Mar 17 18:26:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9855 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 02:12:23 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 02:12:23 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA12962; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012861; Thu, 18 Mar 99 12:12:11 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:10 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F63@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 - Voting Results for Week 44 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > 643 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR FOR - AGA - > 644 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA FOR - AGA - So, is voting for one's own more radical proposals becoming a viable way of getting them passed, these days? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu/UV8tA22MsBS7iEQI5pgCg6l5IHEF7qlnSpy7aL5MhvY6unFMAoMEX MOiCU0mQwIWjuQZNWU1RView =xl2E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 18:26:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10314 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 02:12:57 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 02:12:57 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA13318; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma013180; Thu, 18 Mar 99 12:12:42 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:41 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F66@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:38 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, March 17, 1999 6:28 PM, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > There have been attempts to introduce a system of that type here (Public > Proposals), but they had to be withdrawn due to general apathy. It was also > deemed to be futile, since if you have an idea you want to discuss, then > there's nothing to stop you posting it to the list for comments. I wonder if ownership of ideas is a problem here. In Thring, for example, few people were willing to voice new ideas in case they were either scammed or taken and proposed by someone else. I don't know if this is the case here, but perhaps we need a system where proposals can be amended while in the process of review; before they are voted on. Personally, I believe in voting something in and then changing it; this being what I consider to be the Nomic Way. Otherwise, with no feedback and no approvals, ideas quickly dry up. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu/Ud8tA22MsBS7iEQIL7QCg1Q4psRU/LjaWWzmAzCTOKYN3J/0An1gS t7uszm1Uui8Bydmk3gZIQCUp =a1EU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 18:26:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10332 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 02:12:58 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 02:12:58 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA13265; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012993; Thu, 18 Mar 99 12:12:21 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:20 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F64@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:12:16 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Problem in ruleset? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 People, I was just compiling my move from the current ruleset, and I found that there is a substantial part of the Token Collection Table now missing. The current ruleset as of 18th March 1999 11:40AEST reads: Rule 1.4.20 - Token Collection Table The following table lists the Token Bonus awarded to a Player during eir Token Collection phase, provided that the listed Event occured during eir Movement phase. +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Event | Token Bonus | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing any Valid Move within a Zone | +1 Bronze | | for which a Zone Pass is carried | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Red | | exactly two lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Black | | exactly three lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Blue | | exactly four lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Silver | | five or more lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly two | +1 Red | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly three | +1 Black | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly four | +1 Blue | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly five | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing a Move which does not involve | +1 Black | | a change of Line as part of the Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing 'Pass' as eir Move | +2 Red or | | | +2 Blue or | | | +2 Black | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ If a Player passes through the same Interchange more than once in a single Move, only the first instance counts with regard to calculating any Token benefits awarded for passing through Interchanges. Now, the obvious thing missing here is the bonuses for moving through more than five interchanges. The most recent proposal to try and alter this rule was P639 (No Zone Bonus for Passing), which failed. Before then, the Rule read: Rule 1.4.20 - Token Collection Table The following table lists the Token Bonus awarded to a Player during eir Token Collection phase, provided that the listed Event occured during eir Movement phase. +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Event | Token Bonus | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing any Valid Move within a Zone | +1 Bronze | | for which a Zone Pass is carried | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Red | | exactly two lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Black | | exactly three lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Blue | | exactly four lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Silver | | five or more lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly two | +1 Red | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly three | +1 Black | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly four | +1 Blue | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly five | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly six | +1 Silver, | | Interchanges during a Move | +1 Black | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly seven | +2 Bl, +2 Re | | Interchanges during a Move | +1 Black | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly eight | +1 Silver, | | Interchanges during a Move | +1 Re, +1 Bu | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly nine | +2 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | +2 Re, +1 Bu | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing a Move which does not involve | +1 Black | | a change of Line as part of the Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing 'Pass' as eir Move | +2 Red or | | | +2 Blue or | | | +2 Black | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ If a Player passes through the same Interchange more than once in a single Move, only the first instance counts with regard to calculating any Token benefits awarded for passing through Interchanges. Can anyone explain this otherwise illegal alteration to the rules? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i Comment: Public key at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9791/me.html iQA/AwUBNu/UYctA22MsBS7iEQJJFwCgquxGxbBPOMTcYbuicjcu1Can0DQAoOyK P0VqNu9at6wZV0R132JNqh+c =iXDI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 23:36:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22100 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 07:36:20 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 07:36:20 -0000 Received: from modem-90.rhodium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.22.90] helo=my) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NXLl-0001SS-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:36:18 +0000 Message-ID: <001c01be7112$9bfaaf80$5a16883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:34:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 - Voting Results for Week 44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> 643 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR FOR - AGA - >> 644 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA FOR - AGA - >So, is voting for one's own more radical proposals becoming a viable way of >getting them passed, these days? Er, hasn't it always been? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 17 23:36:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22109 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 07:36:22 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 07:36:22 -0000 Received: from modem-90.rhodium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.22.90] helo=my) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NXLn-0001SS-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:36:19 +0000 Message-ID: <001d01be7112$9ce5abc0$5a16883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:35:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Problem in ruleset? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Now, the obvious thing missing here is the bonuses for moving through more >than five interchanges. The most recent proposal to try and alter this >rule was P639 (No Zone Bonus for Passing), which failed. Before then, the >Rule read: > >Can anyone explain this otherwise illegal alteration to the rules? Um, Proposal 644 - "Recall Collect"? Or is that too easy? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Mar 17 23:44:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24576 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 07:44:44 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 07:44:44 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA03636 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:44:42 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:47:09 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 - Voting Results for Week 44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> 643 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR FOR - AGA - >>> 644 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA FOR - AGA - >>So, is voting for one's own more radical proposals becoming a viable way of >>getting them passed, these days? > > >Er, hasn't it always been? If you're willing to take the negative karma, why not... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 03:51:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5620 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 11:51:45 -0000 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.212) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 11:51:45 -0000 Received: from modem-13.lupron.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.77.13] helo=my) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NbKw-0007U2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:51:42 +0000 Message-ID: <000301be7136$493c16c0$0d4d883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:36:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 - Voting Results for Week 44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> 643 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - FOR FOR - AGA - >>>> 644 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA FOR - AGA - >>>So, is voting for one's own more radical proposals becoming a viable way of >>>getting them passed, these days? >> >>Er, hasn't it always been? > >If you're willing to take the negative karma, why not... With such a sparsity of Voters these days, it's become more necessary to consider voting for your own Proposals, I think - with four votes it's too easy to get a split decision on a debatable Proposal, and when one extra vote could make all the difference, it's worth making (particularly if you've got Kudos to burn) (or don't care about it). Time for a bit of a recruitment drive, perhaps? It's a bit disappointing that our mention in the Independent the other week didn't net us any new players. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 04:50:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27430 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 12:50:15 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 12:50:15 -0000 Received: from modem-118.methcathinone.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.78.246] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NcFX-0000hI-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: <009a01be713e$75557b40$f64e883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:36:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> There have been attempts to introduce a system of that type here (Public >> Proposals), but they had to be withdrawn due to general apathy. It was >also >> deemed to be futile, since if you have an idea you want to discuss, then >> there's nothing to stop you posting it to the list for comments. > >I wonder if ownership of ideas is a problem here. In Thring, for example, >few people were willing to voice new ideas in case they were either scammed >or taken and proposed by someone else. Indeed, yes. Thring was far more victory-based, though - in Mornington Nomic, managing to score lots of Kudos for a Proposal isn't terribly impressive. I forget if Thring had any other reward for idea ownership (was each rule attributed to its proposer, or was that something else?), but I think that Mornomic falls outside of such copyrighting - in the wider world of Mornington Crescent, there's a rather beautiful "unspoken ownership" of ideas. I'm always secretly proud and amused when some spurious game term I've invented achieves widespread use. (And having Maelberg Variances cited in a net-magazine review of the York Server pleased me absurdly.) >I don't know if this is the case >here, but perhaps we need a system where proposals can be amended while in >the process of review; before they are voted on. I think we've been doing alright, really, reproposing things which failed because of careless yet drastic mistakes, and quietly heralding the more ambitious Proposals before we make them, to get a bit of feedback. >Personally, I believe in voting something in and then changing it; this >being what I consider to be the Nomic Way. More or less - it's obviously a bad idea to enact-and-fix something that's going to critically upset the game in its first incarnation, though; amending a proposal enacted the week before is little different to enacting a different version of a proposal which failed, after all. And if something goes drastically against my own vision of what the game should be, I'm obviously not overly keen to see it enacted at all. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 10:33:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13174 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 18:30:00 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 18:30:00 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA02194 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:29:58 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 18:29:57 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA25070; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:30:24 GMT Message-Id: <199903181830.SAA25070@uksn82> Date: 18 Mar 99 18:29:29 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-143-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 16-Mar-99 23:34 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Week 45's Proposals included: > Proposal 647 - Time keeps on slippin'... [Multiple] Yes, a good thing well done. > Proposal 648 - Contracrostipunctus [Amendment] Cleaner wording than the current implementation. I do have one concern, though - > 3) Otherwise, the Move is known as a Standard Move. All Stations in the > Map currently under play (by default, the Map defined in Rule 1.17.1) are > Valid. The Player must then check through all the Rules and checks in the= > following list to determine if any one of them makes the Move Invalid. > Once the Move is Invalid, it cannot be revalidated by another Rule. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 1. LV Checks > * If the distance between the target Station and the Player's > current Piece Location is not precisely the same as that Player's > LV, the Move becomes Invalid. These two points conflict somewhat, particularly where DH loops are concerned. Consider - Cryer decides to play Dollis Hill, when Rushton is at (say) Beckton. Rushton is required to play DH by the loop rules, and decides to tick off the points bearing in mind that final sentence from para (3) above that an invalidated move remains invalid. Since the first point is LV, and there is no way to have anough LV to travel from Beckton to Dollis Hill, and no subsequent point may revalidate an invalid Move, the required Move to the Hill must be immediately discarded as a possibility. Since the only other option is Pass, Rushton must remain at Beckton (and, incidentally, breaking the Loop). That doesn't seem right, but is it what you intended? This interpretation has its benefits (it's another way of forcing a pass) but it is profoundly at odds with existing play. > Proposal 650 - We Are Normal And We Want Our Freedom [Multiple] > 3. Conservation of Energy [Amendment] > In Rule 1.19.2 (Charge), replace "Charge is modified by normal Piece movement" > with "Charge is modified by any Piece movement that takes place during a > Player's Movement Phase" I was going to complain about this, but of course the wording excludes Straddles which is rather nicely done. I would have thought that applying this change would sufficiently fix the Charge win. > Proposal 651 - Electroplate Blues [Amendment] I'm a little sad about this - the Electroplating itself is a splendid idea, well worth using, but I'm terribly unhappy about losing the Charge win. Whilst I accept to a certain extent the point about the fiddliness of the maths, the whole point of introducing it was so that we had more than one way to win. It just seems a little sad to take that away, to my mind. > Proposal 652 - Through a Podume Darkly [Amendment] Very pleasing. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 11:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9700 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Mar 1999 19:28:39 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 19:28:39 -0000 Received: from modem-1.postman.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.108.129] helo=my) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NiT4-0007Aj-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:28:36 +0000 Message-ID: <000c01be7176$1cbed2a0$816c883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:32:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Since the only other option is Pass, Rushton >must remain at Beckton (and, incidentally, breaking the Loop). Tangentially, such is an unintended side effect of the Loop becoming based on the "previous Active Player's piece position"; you can easily break a Loop with a Pass. Remiss of me. Hmm. I'm not sure how much I like that. >> Proposal 650 - We Are Normal And We Want Our Freedom [Multiple] > >I was going to complain about this, but of course the wording excludes >Straddles which is rather nicely done. I did wonder whether it was worth applying Charge to Straddles or not, really. I suppose it's good to have a few cases where Piece movement doesn't necessarily tally with Charge modification. >I would have thought that applying this change would sufficiently fix the >Charge win. Only the Wild victory - it still leaves the rather worrying prospect of a couple of unpredictable Moves that just happen to hit the right Stations and allow a victory. Charge Victories unnerve me because they're so hard to predict, and can only really be anticipated a Turn before their completion (unless you're willing to double- or triple-calculate potential Charge modifications for every Player, every Turn). >I'm a little sad about this - the Electroplating itself is a splendid idea, >well worth using, but I'm terribly unhappy about losing the Charge win. > >Whilst I accept to a certain extent the point about the fiddliness of the >maths, the whole point of introducing it was so that we had more than one >way to win. It just seems a little sad to take that away, to my mind. Mmm; rather a drastic solution, its repeal, I know, but at the end of the day, a Charge Win isn't really that different to any other sort of Win - the aim of the game is always, of course, to get to Mornington Crescent. Boiling it down and stirring it a bit, the Charge Victory can be reworded to "If your Charge would be 18 when you Moved to Mornington Crescent, you may perform the pre-Move Action of [Charging] to gain three Golds." (And for some reason, it suddenly sounds a lot more powerful and dangerous, worded like that.) The three-Gold requirement is quite a nice thing, I think, because it means we can implement a variety of way to collect Golds (a variety of ways to Win, in essence), and it serves as a fairly blatant "Player X is about to Win" alarm. Also, rather usefully, by the simple step of making the more dramatic Gold-gaining Actions into post-Moves, it's easy to put a one-turn delay on victories, giving opponents a chance to respond to whatever's happened. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 17:51:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7315 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 01:51:03 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 01:51:03 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA15977; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015877; Fri, 19 Mar 99 11:50:41 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:50:40 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F6D@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:50:33 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Problem in ruleset? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, 18 March 1999 17:36, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > >Now, the obvious thing missing here is the bonuses for moving through > >more > >than five interchanges. The most recent proposal to try and alter this > >rule was P639 (No Zone Bonus for Passing), which failed. Before then, > >the > >Rule read: > > > >Can anyone explain this otherwise illegal alteration to the rules? > > Um, Proposal 644 - "Recall Collect"? Or is that too easy? Profuse apologies. I found this and was just about to send my apologies for leaping before looking, but Outlook crashed and I had to spend the rest of the day reinstalling Office. Grrrrrrrr. I must admit I'm puzzled as to why exactly the game needs to be slowed down, and even if it does why this particular method. Why not cut the maximum LV as well? I think what you'll find is that people suddenly come up with lots of ways to get quick wilds, straddles, striles, wormholes and other instant moves working... JM2cW. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 17:56:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10133 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 01:56:19 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 01:56:19 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA17468; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:56:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma017284; Fri, 19 Mar 99 11:55:41 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:55:39 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F6E@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:55:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, 18 March 1999 22:36, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@z...] wrote: > Indeed, yes. Thring was far more victory-based, though - in Mornington > Nomic, managing to score lots of Kudos for a Proposal isn't terribly > impressive. I forget if Thring had any other reward for idea ownership (was > each rule attributed to its proposer, or was that something else?), but I > think that Mornomic falls outside of such copyrighting - in the wider world > of Mornington Crescent, there's a rather beautiful "unspoken ownership" of > ideas. I'm always secretly proud and amused when some spurious game term > I've invented achieves widespread use. (And having Maelberg Variances cited > in a net-magazine review of the York Server pleased me absurdly.) True. Thring had no Rule attribution; even then, this was amendable... > I think we've been doing alright, really, reproposing things which failed > because of careless yet drastic mistakes, and quietly heralding the more > ambitious Proposals before we make them, to get a bit of feedback. This would work if Proposers did get feedback, but I've got virtually nothing from people that I've felt made me want to repropose the idea when proposals have been shot down in flames - and that's with me asking for comment too. I was thinking through an idea for having a 'current ruleset' system - that each game got parcelled off with its own ruleset and therefore had the rules static (unless a special type of proposal was put through - problem fixing, you see) during the entire course of its play. I've been burnt several times in recent games by having to rethink my entire strategy because a new proposal has shot down the core tactic in mid-play. Will keep you posted. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 18 18:01:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12952 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 02:01:35 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 02:01:35 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA19068; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma018972; Fri, 19 Mar 99 12:01:20 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:19 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F6F@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:17 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, 19 March 1999 4:29, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > These two points conflict somewhat, particularly where DH loops are > concerned. This was something my Dolly's Feeling proposal was meant to fix. I think this is the real problem with the current DH rules - that the concept of a Valid Move by 1.5.0 is redefined by the DH rules. The fundamental point of a DH loop is that LV calculations are ignored; the same for any loop (Aldwych/Amersham, Ghost Stations, etc.). I'll propose a new wording of DH loops that fixes that - in the meantime can we pass this otherwise reasonable proposal? > I would have thought that applying this change would sufficiently fix the > Charge win. Not so - my two-move wins still stand. They need only one black for a line change and that's it. > I'm a little sad about this - the Electroplating itself is a splendid idea, > well worth using, but I'm terribly unhappy about losing the Charge win. I admit indifference. Charge wins such as the two-movers I've discovered would quickly become known to the MN players - becoming, if you like, the equivalent of Fool's Mates. OTOH, Charge is something I've rarely seen used in internet games of MC, so it's not something I'm worried about losing. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 00:00:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31247 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 07:45:25 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 07:45:25 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA22922; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:45:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma022917; Fri, 19 Mar 99 17:45:14 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:45:12 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F73@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:45:07 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: PaulWay supply problems Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, Sorry about the delay in posting. Firstly, Outlook GPF'd while I had three game states and three other posts open yesterday, requiring a complete trash and reinstall of Off97. Then, it did the same thing today, this time with a proposal for generic Looping that I'd spent twenty minutes on. Grrrrrrr. But anyway, if you will oblige me by giving me a day or two more to get back onto things, I shall recompense your patience with some moves. Thanks, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 00:41:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20883 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 08:40:59 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 08:40:59 -0000 Received: from modem-93.perium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.47.221] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Nupl-0007gP-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:40:52 +0000 Message-ID: <006e01be71e4$cbdea1c0$2312883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:27:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Problem in ruleset? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >[Recall Collect] >I must admit I'm puzzled as to why exactly the game needs to be slowed down, >and even if it does why this particular method. Why not cut the maximum LV >as well? I think what you'll find is that people suddenly come up with lots >of ways to get quick wilds, straddles, striles, wormholes and other instant >moves working... Removing the upper echelons of Token collection doesn't really "slow the game down"; it just makes high LVs less powerful - being able to move to any one of a hundred Stations (he says, guessing at the maths) is quite a huge strategy benefit, and not one that should be furthered with borderline-ridiculous rewards for rushing through a lot of Interchanges. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 00:41:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21104 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 08:41:30 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 08:41:30 -0000 Received: from modem-93.perium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.47.221] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Nuq2-0007gP-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:41:27 +0000 Message-ID: <006f01be71e4$e0b9aea0$2312883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:37:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I think we've been doing alright, really, reproposing things which failed >> because of careless yet drastic mistakes, and quietly heralding the more >> ambitious Proposals before we make them, to get a bit of feedback. > >This would work if Proposers did get feedback, but I've got virtually >nothing from people that I've felt made me want to repropose the idea when >proposals have been shot down in flames - and that's with me asking for >comment too. [nods sadly] It's always very disheartening to read that one of your Proposals has failed four Votes to nil, for no obvious reason. >I was thinking through an idea for having a 'current ruleset' system - that >each game got parcelled off with its own ruleset and therefore had the rules >static (unless a special type of proposal was put through - problem fixing, >you see) during the entire course of its play. I've been burnt several >times in recent games by having to rethink my entire strategy because a new >proposal has shot down the core tactic in mid-play. Hmm. An interesting thought, but I imagine rather confusing in practice - I'm not sure I could cope with six different rulesets, particularly with games dragging on as long as they do (the Long Game obviously more so than any other). It's true that there is a potential problem of someone Proposing things which drop a spanner into your fiendish strategy, but I feel that this just adds to the experience; such is what it is to play a Nomic. And it's more luck than persecution, really - with at least a Week's delay between proposal and enactment, any hasty "Players actually need *four* Golds to enter MC" attempts probably won't work. We need to play as we go along, I think, otherwise we'll have rules sitting untested for far too long, dozens of them suddenly realised as flawed once we come to use them. The fact that we've got five games going on at once is enough to stop the Nomic system being used to deny victories - in the early days we had a fair bit of "Oh, wait a minute, someone's about to win; let's change things", but with several games in progress, the wider impact of an amendment is more visible. Although I did rather like the idea, floated a couple of years ago, of making a Long Game unwinnable by continually altering the ruleset... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 00:57:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27104 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 08:57:13 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 08:57:13 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA22160 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:57:10 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 08:57:10 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA26626; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:57:36 GMT Message-Id: <199903190857.IAA26626@uksn82> Date: 19 Mar 99 08:55:18 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-167-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 19-Mar-99 01:55 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I was thinking through an idea for having a 'current ruleset' system - that= >each game got parcelled off with its own ruleset and therefore had the rules >static (unless a special type of proposal was put through - problem fixing,= >you see) during the entire course of its play. I've been burnt several >times in recent games by having to rethink my entire strategy because a new= >proposal has shot down the core tactic in mid-play. Will keep you posted. Hmm... that has a lot of potential. It would also make tournament play a lot fairer, I think. You could have a frozen Ruleset for each Game, with votes being taken amongst the players for that game as to whether particular proposals affecting the Vanilla ruleset should be applied to the rules for that Game. When I was thinking about this earlier, I was worrying that there would be a merge problem when a Game ended, but that is faulty reasoning since changes would not be applied to any Game Ruleset which were not already present in the Vanilla rules. One suggestion I would make up front is that each Game should have a Deputy Speaker to maintain the local Ruleset and collate the Votes - editing one Ruleset is fine, but performing the same edits six times? Or even more if a Tournament is in play. I do like that idea though... it would obviate the need for the rather clumsy Frozen/Fluid Nomic state kludge as well. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 01:02:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29370 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 09:02:50 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 09:02:50 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23037 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:02:46 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 09:02:46 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA29207; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:03:12 GMT Message-Id: <199903190903.JAA29207@uksn82> Date: 19 Mar 99 09:01:07 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-168-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 19-Mar-99 02:01 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> I would have thought that applying this change would sufficiently fix the= >> Charge win. >Not so - my two-move wins still stand. They need only one black for a line= >change and that's it. Ah - best kill it then. My personal interest is obvious, but Charge is the final form of an idea I had kicking around for months before hand, the massively over-complex Spin. = Also, I don't know if the analogy with Fool's Mate is entirely accurate, since the chess sequence relies on the victim making exactly the wrong move rather than in MN where it requires merely that the other parties do nothing. The signs should be obvious from Home declaration, but still... -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 01:07:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31035 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 09:07:14 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 09:07:14 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23596 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:07:11 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 09:07:11 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00884; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:07:37 GMT Message-Id: <199903190907.JAA00884@uksn82> Date: 19 Mar 99 09:05:40 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-169-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 19-Mar-99 07:45 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: PaulWay supply problems Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nasty... "Microsoft: Making computers unnecessarily difficult." -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Mar 19 01:38:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9462 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 09:38:23 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 09:38:23 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA14744 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:38:21 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:40:48 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Dolly's definitely feeling unwell. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I was thinking through an idea for having a 'current ruleset' system - that >each game got parcelled off with its own ruleset and therefore had the rules >static (unless a special type of proposal was put through - problem fixing, >you see) during the entire course of its play. I've been burnt several >times in recent games by having to rethink my entire strategy because a new >proposal has shot down the core tactic in mid-play. Will keep you posted. That'd certainly fit the theme... "Are we playing the '43 ruleset, or the '68? With the Thurston Relevancy Accords?" --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 02:04:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19043 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 10:04:18 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 10:04:18 -0000 Received: from modem-94.manisyl.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.77.222] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Nw8R-0005Vf-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:04:12 +0000 Message-ID: <009f01be71f0$6fec4f00$2312883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:07:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Strawberry and Chocolate *and* Vanilla Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >You could have a frozen Ruleset for each Game, with votes being taken >amongst the players for that game as to whether particular proposals >affecting the Vanilla ruleset should be applied to the rules for that Game. Won't that be a bit of a giveaway, though? If someone votes against an amendment affecting a particular Game, it's a clue that it would have affected their plan for it. I'm partly wearing the Devil's Advocate trousers here (since such is usually the best way to get things analysed), but I do wonder if this is going to be more trouble than it's worth - I don't particularly relish the idea of having to keep six separate Rulesets on my hard disk, and certainly don't trust myself to remember off the top of my head which Rules (or versions of Rules) are affecting which Games. It's bad enough forgetting that a Rule's been amended, and carelessly playing it as if it hasn't - playing three Games with one implementation of Shunting and two with another would just be monstrous. I don't have much of a problem with playing under a shifting Ruleset, myself; maybe I've just been luckier than Paul in having my tactics mostly unmolested by Rule amendments, but I know that most of the more dramatic alterations have been thoughtful enough to have some sort of compensation (refunds for the owners of to-be-repealed-Possessions, and whatever). There are cases when you have to rethink something due to a Ruleset change, but I see those as more of a challenge than a problem. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 03:25:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14489 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 11:25:48 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 11:25:48 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA12189 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:25:44 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 11:25:44 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA01488; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:26:08 GMT Message-Id: <199903191126.LAA01488@uksn82> Date: 19 Mar 99 11:22:13 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States w/e 19/3/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Game states as of 11:20 GMT 19/3/99 are as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times GMT) ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long RiffRaff 15-March-1999 09:25 12 MN-C Vanilla RiffRaff 19-March-1999 07:35 [1] 13 MN-G Finsbury PaulWay 18-March-1999 08:06 15 MN-R Rutts PaulWay 18-March-1999 10:14 [2] 16 MN-B Chateau Dunx 19-March-1999 06:23 [1] ignoring the Move RiffRaff played and then withdrew. [2] pending PaulWay's response to a Buzz. The time given is that of the Buzz rather than the last Play. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 08:10:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2638 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 16:10:29 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 16:10:29 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14584 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:10:25 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 16:10:24 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA09508; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:10:50 GMT Message-Id: <199903191610.QAA09508@uksn82> Date: 19 Mar 99 16:06:32 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just thought I'd spang a couple of ideas off into the ether about reorganising the ruleset, especially the 1.x sections. Currently the ruleset is organised by concept, which isn't in itself a bad thing, but makes the rules difficult to read through and navigate. What I propose are the following broad changes - 1. move the Nomic mechanics to the end - I know that these are the bedrock of the whole process, but they are also largely static and not really the focus of the game. I suggest renumbering section 0 to section A or something (effectively treating it as an appendix) and putting it at the= end of the ruleset document so that the first thing a new reader sees after the contents page is the Vanilla ruleset. 2. reorganise the Vanilla ruleset around explaining the GSD - this is already partly in place but could do with being more clearly described. However, I'm thinking that section 1.2 should be promoted to the beginning of the ruleset, with the objectives and Turn mechanics following. 3. structure Action descriptions differently - currently the Action descriptions are loosely grouped by their effect (states of play, shunts, blocks, etc) although there is a rather unsightly lump of general Actions in section 1.7. What I suggest is reorganising the Action descriptions by what kind of tokens they cost - since the roles of Reds, Blues, etc are quite well-defined this would have the effect of clustering Actions by the desired effect ("I want to really ruin player X's day...") and also by what tokens were to hand ("Hmm... I've only got Black Tokens left."). Obviously, there are misfits in this scheme, but I would have thought we can designate a primary colour (eg the Freem clamp costs a Red and a Green, but since it attacks another Player the Red should be considered primary). 4. make tables the primary reference - there are several useful tables at different points in the ruleset. These should be grouped in one place near the beginning to make finding them easier, and to provide a cleaner way in. 5. extend the Glossary - this is already a useful feature of the ruleset, but I think it could be useful to extend it to include conceptual descriptions that don't fit in elsewhere (yes, I know it's a bit kitchen= sink - but I think in a game of this type there always has to be a section called 'miscellaneous'). You'll note that I haven't talked about Special Rulesets - I don't think those can be organised any better than they are already, since by definition= they have to be grouped by specialisation. What do people think? Would this be better or worse than the existing format? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 08:44:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21677 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 16:44:14 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 16:44:14 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17795 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:44:10 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 16:44:09 UT Received: by uksn82 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24246; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:44:35 GMT Message-Id: <199903191644.QAA24246@uksn82> Date: 19 Mar 99 16:38:47 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-178-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 19-Mar-99 16:06 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, I'll try and do an example edit this weekend to see how it pans out... should I find a free moment, of course. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 11:03:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 111 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 19:03:42 -0000 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.212) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 19:03:42 -0000 Received: from modem-3.isotretinoin.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.74.3] helo=my) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10O4YP-0007T4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:03:34 +0000 Message-ID: <000701be723b$c9354120$034a883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:07:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Classic Play archive? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just been browsing back through the Cryer Lounge archives, out of curiosity, and I must say I was particularly impressed by Dunx's combined Power Failing and Titheing of a few turns previously. I'm sadly a little late to nominate it for the Clever Bear Award, but it does make me think that an archive of particularly cunning or fiendish plays would be a welcome addition to the Web page, with perhaps a little anecdotal paragraph from the relevant player. Hmm. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Mar 19 12:25:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8534 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 20:25:04 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 20:25:04 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24972 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:24:57 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:27:28 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What do people think? Would this be better or worse than the existing >format? Sounds good to me... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Fri Mar 19 13:05:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27951 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Mar 1999 21:05:44 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 21:05:44 -0000 Received: from modem-44.lansoprazole.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.75.172] helo=my) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10O6SO-0004C7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:05:31 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01be724c$d1809b20$ac4b883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:07:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Just thought I'd spang a couple of ideas off into the ether about >reorganising the ruleset, especially the 1.x sections. Spangers at the ready, then... >1. move the Nomic mechanics to the end Certainly, yes. I'd even be tempted to move them to a completely separate file, possibly taking the opportunity to hack them down to a friendly, readable format. Since they're very, very rarely amended (and I think we're at the point where we're rarely going to tinker with them again), it's probably worth rephrasing them in a chattier manner, so that a completely new Player can pick things up without effort. After all, the administration side of things needn't be run to the letter as much as other Nomics - I'm *sure* we could get the whole of Section 0.* down into a couple of pages, without losing any of the general meaning. >2. reorganise the Vanilla ruleset around explaining the GSD - this is > already partly in place but could do with being more clearly described. > However, I'm thinking that section 1.2 should be promoted to the > beginning of the ruleset, with the objectives and Turn mechanics > following. Probably a good arrangement - we really need to structure the ruleset so that it's readable from top to bottom, with understanding increasing steadily at each step. Perhaps opening with (naturally) the objective of the game, followed by a brief summary of how it's played, with descriptions being padded out as the ruleset progresses. This will make things a bit awkward to amend (in that we'll have to be careful to check that the summaries remain accurate), but I think it's probably important to have a readable, friendly ruleset. >3. structure Action descriptions differently - [...] > What I suggest is reorganising the Action descriptions by what kind > of tokens they cost Excellent idea. This would also have the benefit of encouraging future Actions to be a little more in-theme when deciding their Token costs, which can't be bad. (And it'd nice to be able to refer to "Offensive Actions" or "Move Manipulation Actions" without ambiguity.) >4. make tables the primary reference - there are several useful tables at > different points in the ruleset. These should be grouped in one place > near the beginning to make finding them easier, and to provide a cleaner > way in. Not sure about this one; pretty much all of the tables belong where they are, as an easy-to-read summary of some rule aspect, the only real exception being the Action Lists. They're all fairly easy to find, as things stand, aren't they? A mere search for the appropriate snippet of text. (I must, I must have a look at writing another ASCII-to-HTML convertor for the Ruleset, actually.) >5. extend the Glossary - this is already a useful feature of the ruleset, > but I think it could be useful to extend it to include conceptual > descriptions that don't fit in elsewhere It could and should be a lot more, yes - more than once I've wondered about the precise Ruleset definition of a term (Rounds springing to mind more than anything), only to find the Glossary silent. >You'll note that I haven't talked about Special Rulesets - I don't think >those can be organised any better than they are already, since by definition >they have to be grouped by specialisation. Indeed not. Although a little uniformity among their layout (particularly the implementation of new Actions) wouldn't go terribly amiss. >What do people think? Would this be better or worse than the existing >format? Oh, infinitely better - it's the sort of thing we should have had in place months ago. I look forward to your initial drafts for it, and its development from there. Much applause to you, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Mar 19 22:49:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31294 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Mar 1999 06:49:57 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 1999 06:49:57 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA17000 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:49:51 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:52:18 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>4. make tables the primary reference - there are several useful tables at >> different points in the ruleset. These should be grouped in one place >> near the beginning to make finding them easier, and to provide a >cleaner >> way in. > > >Not sure about this one; pretty much all of the tables belong where they >are, as an easy-to-read summary of some rule aspect, the only real exception >being the Action Lists. They're all fairly easy to find, as things stand, >aren't they? A mere search for the appropriate snippet of text. You could have them as appropriate throughtout the rulseset, then have them all again in an appendix. This project would help enormously with my attempt to make a physical board version... :) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sat Mar 20 06:57:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21698 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Mar 1999 14:57:49 -0000 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.212) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 1999 14:57:49 -0000 Received: from modem-89.yttrium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.19.89] helo=my) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ONC1-0004cP-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:57:43 +0000 Message-ID: <000401be72e2$9a8c1680$5913883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:29:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Kevan blathering about card games again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This project would help enormously with my attempt to make a physical board >version... :) As has come up a few times before, Mornington Nomic probably wouldn't lend itself terribly well to a physical board game - with moves often taking ten or twenty minutes to fully consider, and with a fair amount of miscellaneous statistical data requiring maintenance (including fiddly things such as Game Time and Charge), I wouldn't relish the idea of playing it over a table. It would be interesting to try and make a playable "real life" version of the game, though; as I've mumbled in the past (and sorry to dredge this up again if I've mentioned it more times than I remember doing), I've tried making two card games of it - one was a rather arcane strategy one with a variety of Station, Action and Rule cards (play one Station per Turn, possibly netting Tokens which you can use to play Action cards, or to put Rule cards into play), the other a simple Uno/Bartok variant (play a Station that shares a Line or word-in-name with the previous card). Curiously, I approached the London Transport Museum with the latter idea a few weeks ago(explaining it with careful vagueness), and they turned it down, saying that they were already considering a "similar" game. Be interesting to see what that turns out to be, if anything. I'm musing about approaching the BBC instead, making the game far more of a Mornington Crescent affair than a mere Tube-themed Bartok, but doubt it'd be particularly viable. I'd be more interested in creating a complicated strategy game, though, I think - nothing commercial, just something to amuse ourselves with at pilgrimages, to play with friends, possibly even to play online if the game lends itself well enough. With a simple Web-based repository of "official" cards (new ones being added every so often, old ones being errata'd or removed), Players could just download and print off anything they needed. Buy yourself a box of plastic card sleeves and some coloured cardboard (or spare other-card-game cards), and you can put together a decent enough little deck. A card game is the way to go, I've quite firmly decided, anyway - I think it's the only feasible way to get the sheer breadth of rules to the game (which is a very critical element of the game's style - "Aha! I respond to your Double-Strile with a Beckmann's Token Drain!"), without actually having to include a hundred-page rulebook; instead of having to consider every possible Action in the Action List, you just look at the few cards in your hand. By having a huge database of cards and permitting players to put together their own decks, an incredibly wide and interesting range of playing styles become available ("My Morden Darkness deck could beat your Pigeon Baguette one hands down, you know."); far more than a simple board game could ever provide. Still not sure if there should be a board involved, though. Although it'd be extremely pleasing to play on one, it does have the rather nasty drawback of players having to carry a damn great board about with them all the time. A laminated map poster would be absolutely gorgeous, no doubt, but I think I'd sacrifice it for the ability to just play over a table with two decks of cards and loose change or a bit of paper to keep track of Tokens and things. Hmm. Hmm. I'll shut up for the moment. If anyone else is at all interested in working on something like this, it might be worth setting up a mailing list for it. Give a nod. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Sat Mar 20 08:13:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16572 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Mar 1999 16:13:39 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 1999 16:13:39 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10OONS-0001d7-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:13:35 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:13:45 GMT Message-ID: <36f3bbc3.9969661@p...> References: <000701be723b$c9354120$034a883e@my> In-Reply-To: <000701be723b$c9354120$034a883e@my> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Classic Play archive? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:07:48 -0000, you wrote: >I've just been browsing back through the Cryer Lounge archives, out of >curiosity, and I must say I was particularly impressed by Dunx's = combined >Power Failing and Titheing of a few turns previously.=20 It's something I've wanted to inflict on some poor soul for ages. = RiffRaff just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. >I'm sadly a little >late to nominate it for the Clever Bear Award,=20 Hmm - I don't think I could accept it anyway given the ban on the Speaker awarding Kudos to emself. >but it does make me think >that an archive of particularly cunning or fiendish plays would be a = welcome >addition to the Web page, with perhaps a little anecdotal paragraph from= the >relevant player. Hmm. "Hmm" indeed. Perhaps as part of the Game Archive? Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sun Mar 21 01:44:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14808 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Mar 1999 09:44:47 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 1999 09:44:47 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA26680 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 04:44:43 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 04:47:12 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Kevan blathering about card games again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>This project would help enormously with my attempt to make a physical board >>version... :) > > >As has come up a few times before, Mornington Nomic probably wouldn't lend >itself terribly well to a physical board game - with moves often taking ten >or twenty minutes to fully consider, and with a fair amount of miscellaneous >statistical data requiring maintenance (including fiddly things such as Game >Time and Charge), I wouldn't relish the idea of playing it over a table. It would have to be a rather edited version... Many of the possessions would be gone, for example, and probably charge as well. The board I have in mind, though, is quite complicated enough to handle a lot of data... 4-sided Circle Line state marker, dials to keep track of time, dry-erase board for home and damaged stations... Actually, it'll probably be rather more interesting as a woodworking excercise than as a game. You could keep it relatively fast paced, as long as everyone was reasonably familiar with the game, had appropriate reference cards, and maybe a time limit. If only they made chess clocks for more than two players... >I'd be more interested in creating a complicated strategy game, though, I >think - nothing commercial, just something to amuse ourselves with at >pilgrimages, to play with friends, possibly even to play online if the game >lends itself well enough. With a simple Web-based repository of "official" >cards (new ones being added every so often, old ones being errata'd or >removed), Players could just download and print off anything they needed. >Buy yourself a box of plastic card sleeves and some coloured cardboard (or >spare other-card-game cards), and you can put together a decent enough >little deck. > >A card game is the way to go, I've quite firmly decided, anyway - I think >it's the only feasible way to get the sheer breadth of rules to the game >(which is a very critical element of the game's style - "Aha! I respond to >your Double-Strile with a Beckmann's Token Drain!"), without actually having >to include a hundred-page rulebook; instead of having to consider every >possible Action in the Action List, you just look at the few cards in your >hand. By having a huge database of cards and permitting players to put >together their own decks, an incredibly wide and interesting range of >playing styles become available ("My Morden Darkness deck could beat your >Pigeon Baguette one hands down, you know."); far more than a simple board >game could ever provide. Well, if you need anyone to bounce ideas off of... Actually, if anyone's interested, I have a text file for a card game a friend of mine and I created, called Leviathan - sort of like a cross between Magic and Go Fish, with heavy doses of sarcasm. That's my other other project right now (after building the robots from Mystery Science Theater 3000 and making a Mornington Nomic board), making a new set of Leviathan cards, only with pictures this time... If anyone knows where I can find a picture of a Black Devil Angler or an Egyptian Mouth-Breeder... > >Still not sure if there should be a board involved, though. Although it'd be >extremely pleasing to play on one, it does have the rather nasty drawback of >players having to carry a damn great board about with them all the time. A >laminated map poster would be absolutely gorgeous, no doubt, but I think I'd >sacrifice it for the ability to just play over a table with two decks of >cards and loose change or a bit of paper to keep track of Tokens and things. I do have a poster varnished onto wood, with nice brass hinges and handles, and holes drilled in each station for pegs, plus a box of assorded pawns, pegs, and tokens. Made it for playing conventional MC... we never got much chance to play it in public, but we got great reactions from onlookers when we did. Particularly since no-one around here's ever heard of the game. Funny thing is, I'd been playing games similar to MC and Cress and Cheddar Gorge all through high-school; my friends and I were always making up elaborate non-games on the spot. It was a bit of a shock when I first discovered MC several years ago... Maybe if I ever manage to make a Pilgrimage, I'll teach you all to play Fligett's Nodules, Kleimnot & Tchuse, and Ring the Frog. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sun Mar 21 18:44:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1483 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Mar 1999 02:44:14 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 02:44:14 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA20860; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:44:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma020714; Mon, 22 Mar 99 12:43:37 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:43:36 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F76@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:43:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 45 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, 19 March 1999 19:01, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > Ah - best kill it then. Charge is fine as a concept; opening MC with the same charge may need work - perhaps to reduce it to need only two gold tokens? > Also, I don't know if the analogy with Fool's Mate is entirely accurate, > since the chess sequence relies on the victim making exactly the wrong move > rather than in MN where it requires merely that the other parties do > nothing. The signs should be obvious from Home declaration, but still... Hmmmm. Obviously the analogy isn't quite correct, but there's the Scholar's Mate (I think), where you move the Rook and Queen out, and the Queen then takes the Pawn in front of the King... It's slightly less obvious, and it relies on the co-operation of the other player a bit less. But it's more or less the same result. Anyway, it's your choice. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sun Mar 21 19:13:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13410 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Mar 1999 03:13:32 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 03:13:32 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA02594; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:13:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002514; Mon, 22 Mar 99 13:13:10 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:13:09 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F78@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:13:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, 20 March 1999 2:07, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > move the Nomic mechanics to the end - I know that these are the bedrock > of the whole process, but they are also largely static and not really > the focus of the game. I suggest renumbering section 0 to section A or > something (effectively treating it as an appendix) and putting it at the > end of the ruleset document so that the first thing a new reader sees > after the contents page is the Vanilla ruleset. Why not even have the Nomic rules as a separate document entirely. I admit that this may not sound like much (and might also seem like a bit of extra work) but it'd be very useful to separate the two sets out. They have different rules for changing, and the Nomic rules get changes very rarely. > reorganise the Vanilla ruleset around explaining the GSD - this is > already partly in place but could do with being more clearly described. > However, I'm thinking that section 1.2 should be promoted to the > beginning of the ruleset, with the objectives and Turn mechanics > following. Good idea - or, at least, codifying the GSD header and the move structure. > What I suggest is reorganising the Action descriptions by what kind > of tokens they cost - since the roles of Reds, Blues, etc are quite > well-defined this would have the effect of clustering Actions by the > desired effect ("I want to really ruin player X's day...") and also by > what tokens were to hand ("Hmm... I've only got Black Tokens left."). It's interesting. I'd prefer stated categories, since although token costs are a good rule of thumb they're not absolute. "Offensive", "Defensive", "Possessions and Tokens", "Movement","States", and "Extra" would cover most of them. But even then you could probably use my argument above against these categories as well. *shrug* > 4. make tables the primary reference - there are several useful tables at > different points in the ruleset. These should be grouped in one place > near the beginning to make finding them easier, and to provide a > cleaner way in. Very good idea. > 5. extend the Glossary - this is already a useful feature of the ruleset, > but I think it could be useful to extend it to include conceptual > descriptions that don't fit in elsewhere (yes, I know it's a bit kitchen > sink - but I think in a game of this type there always has to be a > section called 'miscellaneous'). True, very true. Another good idea. On the whole, an excellent plan. I think another thing that we need to tackle is some of these terms (such as 'normal movement' or 'pass through') that we seem to be having a problem with in the current discussions. If two people are arguing about a misunderstanding (such as Kev and I with the DH loop) then there must be something inaccurate or ill-worded. JM2cW. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sun Mar 21 19:17:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14982 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Mar 1999 03:17:13 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 03:17:13 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA04231; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:17:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma004181; Mon, 22 Mar 99 13:16:54 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:16:52 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F7A@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:16:44 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another thing: While we're at restructuring the entire Mornington Ruleset, can we have a renumbering as well? I for one find it annoying that two logically sequential points should be called (for example) 1.6.16 and 1.6.2. JM0.5cW. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Mar 22 00:29:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26938 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Mar 1999 08:29:56 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 08:29:56 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01022 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:29:49 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 08:29:49 UT Received: by uksn82 (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id IAA12665; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:30:15 GMT Message-Id: <199903220830.IAA12665@uksn82> Date: 22 Mar 99 08:26:13 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-189-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 22-Mar-99 03:16 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Reworking the Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >While we're at restructuring the entire Mornington Ruleset, can we have a >renumbering as well? I for one find it annoying that two logically >sequential points should be called (for example) 1.6.16 and 1.6.2. Oh, that was a given. But thanks for mentioning it. Thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I'm afraid time did not permit ruleset hacking over the weekend, but given the comments on table placement particularly I shall try to do two versions with different locations for significant tables. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 23 10:03:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18036 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 18:03:49 -0000 Received: from mb06.swip.net (193.12.122.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 18:03:49 -0000 Received: from opus (p117-18.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.198.18]) by mb06.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA15777 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:03:44 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <000201be7556$fd7827e0$12c652c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:55:30 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Mornington Crescent Rules? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have thought about joining your game, and I have found the rules. I have, however, not been able to find the rules for Mornington Crescent. There is a link from one of the MN-pages, but that doesn't work. Any ideas? Ole Andersen http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/3637/ http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/8941/ home: siri.iben@g... palnatoke@g... (Ole) palnatoke@a... (Ole) aeshna@g... (Kira) school: 1508oa@f... (Ole) school: ktkock@s... (Kira) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 23 12:22:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28947 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 20:22:02 -0000 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.212) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 20:22:02 -0000 Received: from modem-27.polonium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.41.155] helo=my) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PXgO-0005jM-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:21:53 +0000 Message-ID: <007001be756b$65601a20$0f9c883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:25:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Mornington Crescent Rules? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have thought about joining your game, and I have found the rules. I have, >however, not been able to find the rules for Mornington Crescent. There is a >link from one of the MN-pages, but that doesn't work. Any ideas? The current ruleset should be available at http://members.xoom.com/ruleset.txt - it is (as we've been mumbling) perhaps a little strange to read at first glance, opening with the Nomic-mechanic rules rather than the Mornington Crescent ones, but if you page down a while you should find what you're after. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 23 12:36:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4715 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 20:36:00 -0000 Received: from mb06.swip.net (193.12.122.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 20:36:00 -0000 Received: from opus (p102-45.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.192.109]) by mb06.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA22037 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:35:55 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <00a301be756c$2ffbc720$12c652c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:31:46 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Mornington Crescent Rules? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan Davis wrote: :The current ruleset should be available at :http://members.xoom.com/ruleset.txt - it is (as we've been mumbling) perhaps :a little strange to read at first glance, opening with the Nomic-mechanic :rules rather than the Mornington Crescent ones, but if you page down a while :you should find what you're after. Insert /mornomic between com and /ruleset. :-) Thanks. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 23 12:48:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11591 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 20:48:10 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 20:48:10 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PY5k-0009B6-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:48:04 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:48:15 GMT Message-ID: <36f7f875.8102668@p...> References: <000201be7556$fd7827e0$12c652c3@opus> In-Reply-To: <000201be7556$fd7827e0$12c652c3@opus> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Mornington Crescent Rules? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ole: >I have thought about joining your game, and I have found the rules.=20 You would be very welcome to join, of course. If you've only just = subscribed to the list, you might want to lurk for a little while until you're = comfortable with what's happening then join a Game and see how things go from there. The thing to remember is that we all started knowing nothing about the = game, so if there's something you don't understand then do ask. Those of us who = are marked on the Player Pages as Mentors have volunteered to be particularly helpful. Looking at your web presence though, you are already a Nomicker = so I'm sure there'll be not much you won't be able to follow. It may be worth mentioning that although MN uses Nomic mechanisms to = construct the ruleset, the focus of the 'win' is entirely upon the game played on = the London Underground map. >I have, >however, not been able to find the rules for Mornington Crescent. There = is a >link from one of the MN-pages, but that doesn't work. Any ideas? Hmmm... it could be that the IMCS DNS node has died again. Which link was= it you followed? You would probably be better off in the mean time gleaning what you can = from the game archives at York (while it is still there - link on the MN title = page), at Dan Parslow's MC server (http://parslow.com/cgi-bin/mornington/main.pl), = and at Pants MC (http://pantsmc.cream.org/). In all honesty though, the only thing you really need to know is that the= object of the game is to move to Mornington Crescent with as much style as = possible. All the fiancettoes, straddles, knurdling, blonking, and other elements = you might see are means to that end, no more. Mornington Nomic and Mornington Crescent are obviously very closely = linked, but the rules for MC are now so complex in their entirety as to be beyond the= ken of all but the most experienced players. No one here, with the possible = exception of PaulWay, could lay claim to such an understanding. MN is, to a certain extent, an effort to devise a more comprehensible = ruleset for the rest of us. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 23 14:43:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11766 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 22:43:25 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 22:43:25 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PZtG-000JSw-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:43:18 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:43:28 GMT Message-ID: <36fb1835.16231198@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 46 - Voting Results for Week 45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 646 When in range... - 1 2 3 Fails 647 Time keeps on slippin'... 2 1 - 3 Passes 648 Contracrostipunctus 1 1 1 3 Fails 649 Slight Chateau d'Eau fix 2 1 - 3 Passes 650 We Are Normal... 2 1 - 3 Passes [a] 651 Electroplate Blues 2 1 - 3 Passes 652 Through a Podume Darkly 2 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 646 (PaulWay) - AGA - - - AGA - PAS -=20 647 (PaulWay) - FOR - - - FOR - PAS -=20 648 (PaulWay) - FOR - - - AGA - PAS -=20 649 (PaulWay) - FOR - - - FOR - PAS -=20 650 (Kevan) - FOR - - - PAS - FOR -=20 651 (Kevan) - FOR - - - PAS - FOR -=20 652 (Kevan) - FOR - - - PAS - FOR -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 23 5 0 10 42 16 10 3 Halved: 11 2 21 5 1 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +6 +5 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 I I -0 I -3 -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +0 n n +3 n +3 +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a a +0 a -0 -0 c c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t t +3 t +0 +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i i +0 i -0 -0 Finger/Pulse: v +0 +0 v v +5 v +5 +0 e e e e Repeal: +0 +0 +0 +2 +0 Rewrite: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +4 +6 +0 = [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +6 +0 +21 +18 +0 Final Kudos: 11 17 2 0 10 42 16 23 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] applied to 1.3.0 where the wording that was in the now repealed 1.5.8= has moved to. [*] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - PaulWay (Time Keeps On Slippin') CAMREC Cleanup Award - PaulWay (Slight Chateau d'Eau Fix) Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan (Electroplate Blues) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Note that this footnote is now [*] rather than a letter because I was = sick of constantly resequencing. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 23 14:43:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11846 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 22:43:33 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 22:43:33 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PZtJ-000JSw-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:43:21 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:43:33 GMT Message-ID: <36fc185d.16271718@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Six -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 653 - Let's go Loop the Loop [Multiple] Enact a new rule called Loop the Loop: A Game may be in (one or more) Loop states, which have the following defining features: * One or more Trap Stations which Invoke the Loop. * A Sidestep Action to allow a Player to avoid being drawn into the Loop. * An Escape Action to allow a Player to end the Loop. A Loop is Invoked when a Player's Piece ends eir Turn at a Trap Station. = If the Station is a Trap for more than one Loop, the Player must specify = which Loop e is Invoking in eir comments in the Turn. A Loop is not invoked by= a Player's Piece _starting_ eir Turn at a Trap Station, only if the Turn is ended with the Piece being at the Trap Station. A Player may play the corresponding Sidestep Action before eir Movement Phase. If so, the Player can play eir Turn normally, without being = affected by the Loop. If e cannot or does not do so, eir Piece is automatically moved (without travelling through any other stations) to the Trap Station. If there are multiple Trap Stations and there is a defined order in which those Trap Stations must be played, then eir Piece is moved to the next Trap Station= in that order (looping around from the bottom of the list to the top). If there are multiple Trap Stations and there is no defined order in which those Trap Stations must be played, then the Player can choose which Trap Station eir piece is moved to. Players in a Loop disregard (and thus do not perform) the Movement Phase = of eir Turn. No Actions may be performed that leave eir Piece ending the = Turn at a non-Trap Station. If there is only one Trap Station in the Loop, = the Piece stays where it is, and that Trap Station is a Valid Move. If there are multiple Trap Stations, the Piece moves to the next one in sequence = or to any chosen Trap Station if there is no defined sequence. Other impediments to Movement, such as Blocks, are ignored for Players in a = Loop. A Player may play the corresponding Escape Action before eir Movement = Phase to end the loop. If this is played, e plays eir Turn from eir Piece's current location as normal. Once an Escape Action is played, the corresponding Loop is broken and ceases to have any effect. If two Loops are Invoked simultaneously in such a way that there are no Stations which are Traps for both Loops, the Loop most recently Invoked remains in effect and other Loop ceases to have any effect. Rewrite Rule 1.8.1 (Dollis Hill Loop) to read: A Dollis Hill Loop has the single Trap Station of Dollis Hill. The = Sidestep Action [Dollis Sidestep] costs 1 Silver to perform and the Escape Action [Dollis Escape] can only be performed when the Player has an LV of 10 or more. {Sorry if this seems like using a jackhammer to pick your teeth. On the mailing list someone had talked about having a generic looping structure, and the more I thought about it the more this seemed like a better thing = to do than to just talk about one specific instance. Besides, my old Dollis Hill proposal was a bit more flawed than I originally realised. Just = trying to make amends. Paul} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 654 - Voting Comments [Enactment] In addition to Voting on a particular Proposal, a Player may also add a Comment. This is a small piece of text (less than 80 characters) in = square brackets ('[' and ']') appended after the Vote, such that it is clear to the Speaker which Proposal the Comment is referring to. At the = discretion of the Speaker, e may send these comments to the Proposer of the Proposal before the voting results are distributed. The Speaker cannot give the Proposer any information as to who gave the Comments that is not in the Comment itself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 655 - Day Tripper! [Enactment] The All Day Rover Card is a Small, Papery posession that costs 3 Bronze. When a Player purchases an All Day Rover Card, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like " Rover Card" in the Luggage - for instance, an All Day Rover Card purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday Rover Card". Cards that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Current, and Cards that have a different day are said to be Expired. While a Player owns a Current All Day Rover Card, e pays nothing to perform the [Line Change] Action. If a Player owns an Expired All Day Rover Card, it is automatically discarded. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 656 - Let's Do the Sidestep Again [Multiple] [Amendment: Step In the Right Direction] Amend Rule 1.8.1 (Dollis Hill Loop) such that its final paragraph reads thus: A "[Dollis Escape]" Action may only be performed if the Actioning = Player is situated at Dollis Hill with an LV of 10 or more. "[Dollis = Sidestep]" may be performed without cost when the Actioning Player has an LV of = 10 or more. [Amendment: Step, Look and Listen] Amend the Actions table in Rule 1.7.2 so that the entry for Dollis = Sidestep reads as follows: [Dollis Sidestep] Pre 1.8.1 -1 Si if LV<10 [End of Let's Do the Sidestep Again] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 657 - Burnt Offering [Multiple] { Comment: OK, so I didn't change the 'three' to 'five' last time... resubmitted with this foolish oversight corrected. Sorry about that. } [Amendment: Two Pare] Amend Rule 0.4.1 (Proposals) to remove the entry for Rewrite. [Amendment: Due Me A Favour] Amend Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos) to remove the bonuses for passage of Rewrite and Repeal Proposals. [Amendment: Quota Ridiculous] Amend Rule 0.4.3 (Proposal Submission) so that its first sentance reads thus: "Players may submit up to five Proposals per Week, emailing them directly to the Speaker." [Repeal: Duck Off] Repeal Rule 0.4.15 (It Could Be More Dramatic, If You Know What I Mean). [End of Burnt Offering] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 658 - Gold Rush [Action] { Three vaguely frivolous Proposals from me this Week; I'm just rushing = out a few ideas because I've not thought of any yet this Week, and because = I'm unexpectedly being employed tomorrow. } { Speaker's Comment: I'm sure we all congratulate the author on eir = success, in whatever fabulous new career e is embarking upon. Best of luck. } = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Gold Rush] Post 1.7.x -1 Gr = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action "[Gold Rush]" to uncover a previously hidden Token lode. After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a 295-sided die to determine the location of the lode - the next Player to take = eir Turn should look up the Station which has a Venbacker Number matching the die roll; at the start of eir Turn, any gaps in that Station's = Token Stack are replaced with Gold Tokens (a new Stack being created if none exists, unless there are already twelve or more Stacks in play). -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 659 - God Help Us [Multiple] { Bit of a tweak, making Holy Stations a shelter from all targetted = Actions, at the expense of them preventing outgoing targetted Actions. Hmm. } 1. Sanctuary [Enactment] If a Player is situated at a Holy Station, e may not be the target of = any Action (viz. e may not be the "" of any Action requiring a = Player to be specified), nor may e perform any Actions which target a Player. 2. Papal Bull [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.1 (A Shunting We Will Go), replace "neither Dollis Hill nor = a Holy Station" with "not Dollis Hill". -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 660 - Loan Clamps [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Loan-Clamping ] Post 1.7.x -1 Br [Paying Interest] Neut 1.7.x -2 Br [Paying Off] Neut 1.7.x -8 Br = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Loan-Clamping = ]", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. A Loan-Clamped Player gains a "Loan Clamp" = Possession and one Gold Token. Loan Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. At the end of any Turn of a Player carrying a Loan Clamp, if that Player has not performed an Action of "[Paying Interest]" during that Turn, all of eir Tokens are destroyed. A Player may destroy a single Loan Clamp which they are carrying, by performing the Action of "[Paying Off]". -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 23 15:21:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1161 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Mar 1999 23:21:55 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 23:21:55 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA26896; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:21:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma026669; Wed, 24 Mar 99 09:21:25 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:21:24 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F90@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:21:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Absence from the real world of MN Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, I am going away for two weeks over Easter, and I will have no access to my email during that time. For that reason I will be Inactive from Monday the 29th of March 1999 through Monday the 8th of April. I will be back Tuesday the 9th. Don't win too many games while I'm away :-) Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 23 16:43:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11024 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 00:43:40 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 00:43:40 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA06031; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:43:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma005959; Wed, 24 Mar 99 10:43:19 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:43:18 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F93@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:43:17 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, I'm going to start something new. I'll tell you which proposals are mine, and what I'm wanting from them, and you can tell me before you vote what you think. I'd rather retract a proposal than have everyone vote against it, and I believe if everyone does this we'll be getting more done. So: On Wednesday, 24 March 1999 8:44, dunx@l... [SMTP:dunx@l...] wrote: > Proposal 653 - Let's go Loop the Loop [Multiple] Yep, this is mine. Exactly as it states; I'm trying to set up a generic looping system. It might be long, but I feel it's a lot more bulletproof than the current DH rules, and there's provision for Aldwych/Amersham loops and so forth. As far as I can see it also exactly duplicates the process of looping currently - tell me if you don't think so. In particular, I've tightened up when a Loop is activated and when it becomes defunct. The only thing it doesn't do, I suppose, is to make sure that Escapes can only be played at the Trap Station(s). I personally think that if you've got the conditions of the Escape action, then you should be able to break the loop whereever you are. But if that's just me, let me know. > Proposal 654 - Voting Comments [Enactment] I'm trying to encourage more people to talk about what's being proposed, and to give feedback to the authors on proposals they like or, more importantly, don't like. The comment is a simple, anonymous (unless you want to be acknowledged) system of letting a proposer know what you think. It's something I do on the end of more than a few of my votes anyway, but only the Speaker gets to see that. > Proposal 655 - Day Tripper! [Enactment] Seems like a good idea. I admit that it might be a bit powerful with the current system of time usage, but OTOH if that's the case just amend it when it's enacted. I don't think it's too powerful, though. > Proposal 656 - Let's Do the Sidestep Again [Multiple] If you don't vote for the Looping proposal, then vote for this. A good little amendment. > Proposal 657 - Burnt Offering [Multiple] I'm not too sure about this, with the current (relatively) low voting populace. We may need more people around to make a proposal limit of five worth its while. But I'll give it a try. > Proposal 658 - Gold Rush [Action] Well, this sounds good. Another random decision that I think should be submitted to the PBM Dice Server. > Proposal 659 - God Help Us [Multiple] It seems these Holy Stations are getting fairly powerful - Charing Cross and King's Cross St. Pancras being fairly significant. Not that this is a bad thing, mind... > Proposal 660 - Loan Clamps [Action] Oooh, dunno about this one. One bronze? I tell you, I'd be paying the loan-clamp off first go, and not risk losing all my tokens. This would be fairly dangerous when combined with a shunt to take eir gold token away... People! Talk! Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 04:30:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23966 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 12:30:29 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 12:30:29 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA29470 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:30:26 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 12:30:25 UT Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id MAA10564; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:30:49 GMT Message-Id: <199903241230.MAA10564@u...> Date: 24 Mar 99 12:29:43 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-198-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 24-Mar-99 00:43 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Week 46's Proposals included: >Proposal 653 - Let's go Loop the Loop [Multiple] I rather like this - it also has a lot of potential. >Proposal 654 - Voting Comments [Enactment] Fair enough - I think we should see how it works, although I don't know that= there would necessarily be anything which a Voter might say privately which wasn't already going to be expressed on the list. Perhaps we should institute some small Kudos reward to encourage comments in= this form? >Proposal 655 - Day Tripper! [Enactment] Ooh, lovely. >Proposal 656 - Let's Do the Sidestep Again [Multiple] Despite Paul's implication, I don't think this is entirely incompatible with= 653 above. After all, the costs remain unchanged and the effect of this Proposal is to offer a discount on Sidestep if you're going fast enough. I would accept that this should be broadened should 653 pass, though. >Proposal 657 - Burnt Offering [Multiple] PaulWay said: -- We may need more people around to make a proposal limit of five -- worth its while. Possibly, but as far as I can see one of the justifications for the Rewrite Proposal type is to allow more change (or at least fixes). Now, I'm quite keen to kill Rewrites because they're a pain to administer. You wouldn't have thought this would be the case (I certainly didn't at the time), but a Rewrite requires the Speaker to very carefully evaluate each Rewrite Proposal for whether it changes the sense of the rule it is purporting to only reword - granted that this process could be performed after Proposal publication, but I feel it is incumbent upon me not to issue an invalid Proposal in the first place. Given that the Rewrite idea was passed into the Ruleset by a large majority, I thought a reasonable quid pro quo for removing this avenue for increasing Kudos would be to allow more Proposals. For myself, I can't fill my three Proposal quota each Week so an increase will not affect me. After all, there is no *compulsion* to submit up to the quota. Still - that's rather more than two pennorth, but those are my views. >Proposal 658 - Gold Rush [Action] Hilarious. That *will* be fun to play with. >Proposal 659 - God Help Us [Multiple] All fair enough, I think - I still think you shouldn't be offered sanctuary while you're picking up Pigeons though. >2. Papal Bull [Amendment] >In Rule 1.10.1 (A Shunting We Will Go), replace "neither Dollis Hill nor a >Holy Station" with "not Dollis Hill". This points to a minor hole in Loop the Loop - this should refer to Trap Station, I would have thought. >Proposal 660 - Loan Clamps [Action] Yikes. A very entertaining and amusing idea (unles you are the victim of course), offering a good way of forcing Players with Money Belts to spend Golds. It has two, I think fatal, flaws: 1. it is far, far too cheap to initiate. Since Bronze is as common as water (slight exaggeration, but you see my point) this would undoubtedly become the primary offensive Clamp. A Red or Green component would be more appropriate, I would have thought. 2. as the Proposal is written, if you do not have the Tokens you can never dispose of the Clamp: > At the end of any Turn of a Player carrying a Loan Clamp, if that > Player has not performed an Action of "[Paying Interest]" during that > Turn, all of eir Tokens are destroyed. Yes, but you retain the Clamp?! I can see the point of this (you lose all your tokens, and scramble around looking for a Gold), and I can see a thriving Token Gift market developing, but not only does it seem appallingly Draconian it is entirely out of step with how other Token loss states behave (cf Token Cascade, particularly). -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 10:34:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31904 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 18:33:58 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 18:33:58 -0000 Received: from modem-125.xenon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.253] helo=franz-liszt) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PsTT-0005yC-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:33:55 +0000 Message-ID: <001401be7626$7ba50640$fd1a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:45:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, I'm back and would like to go Active again. No luck in the piano competition I'm afraid... >Proposal 653 - Let's go Loop the Loop [Multiple] Great idea. I may send in some ghost stations in the near future to take account of Amersham-Aldwych loops and the Ongar Denial... >Proposal 654 - Voting Comments [Enactment] Fair enough. >Proposal 655 - Day Tripper! [Enactment] Possible. Are you that short of black tokens that you are willing to pay three bronzes to preserve them? In particular, are you likely to make three moves within your Zone Pass areas in the same day, to recoup your three bronzes? I like this. >Proposal 656 - Let's Do the Sidestep Again [Multiple] Great, but if the general Loops stuff is put in then this will need to be updated to take account of it (changing the description to refer to all Sidesteps and Escapes.) >Proposal 657 - Burnt Offering [Multiple] I hoped the last proposal (abolishing Rewrites and Repeal bonuses) would pass - I don't think that the Proposal limit should be increased from three in any way. Already the system is heavily enough weighted in favour of players who are familiar with the rules: allowing the rules to change five times per person per week is, surely, a little excessive. I'm finding it bewildering enough catching up with all the things that have changed since last month... And the Rewrite idea is, I think, extremely broken: a serious and guaranteed Kudos gain for something that doesn't even change the rules, only rewords them. (If any Rule is changed in effect, then the Proposal does not, or at least should not, qualify as a Rewrite IMHO.) At the moment, a person who has a Rewrite pass gets not only the Kudos bonus for having a Proposal pass, but a guaranteed extra Kudos boost - something not available with any other type of Proposal (as the CAMREC, IMCS, Trellis and Rutts awards can only be give once per week.) This unfairly weights the Kudos stakes in favour of those whose only actions are to rewrite other people's ideas, rather than rewarding original thought (which I believe was the intention behind making the Trellis and Rutts weekly awards greater than the CAMREC and IMCS ones), thus unfairly penalising people who haven't got the hand of the style of words required in Nomic. It's like awarding extra Kudos points for someone correcting "was" to "were"... [END OF RANT] >Proposal 658 - Gold Rush [Action] Strange idea. Weird. I like it. >Proposal 659 - God Help Us [Multiple] Suits me fine. Using the church as sanctuary doesn't mean you can launch attacks from within it. >Proposal 660 - Loan Clamps [Action] Too powerful for too little cost. I don't like it. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 12:46:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3982 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 20:46:16 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 20:46:16 -0000 Received: from opus (p104-58.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.192.250]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA21809 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:46:14 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <00b501be7637$432db3a0$fac052c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:45:28 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Dollis Hill? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been wondering about the Dollis Hill Loop. Why Dollis Hill? Is there a good reason, or is it just one of those things? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Mar 24 13:27:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26565 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 21:27:10 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 21:27:10 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PvAu-0004Fm-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:26:57 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:27:07 GMT Message-ID: <36f95624.19379438@p...> References: <00b501be7637$432db3a0$fac052c3@opus> In-Reply-To: <00b501be7637$432db3a0$fac052c3@opus> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:45:28 +0100, you wrote: >I have been wondering about the Dollis Hill Loop. Why Dollis Hill? Is = there >a good reason, or is it just one of those things? =46undamentally, it's one of those things - a bit like the goal Station = really. The whole genesis for this game is the UK BBC Radio 4 comedy show "I'm = Sorry I Haven't A Clue", and when Mornington Crescent has been played there they = just use Dollis Hill as a loop trap. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 13:31:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29481 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 21:31:54 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 21:31:54 -0000 Received: from modem-112.sunbather.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.101.240] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PvFd-0005Dv-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:31:52 +0000 Message-ID: <006801be763e$55a3ca40$504b883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:34:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just some brief response to comments on my own Proposals, things being a bit busy for me this week... Dunx said:- >{ Speaker's Comment: I'm sure we all congratulate the author on eir success, > in whatever fabulous new career e is embarking upon. Best of luck. } My thanks. There's not much of a long-term career in millennium bug software, I suspect, but that's what I'm doing - plunging into some Visual Basic work for a company in Brighton; sideways into e-commerce or something after that, it seems. Gloriously better than the dark days of my Felixstowe employment, I'm glad to say. >>Proposal 659 - God Help Us [Multiple] > >All fair enough, I think - I still think you shouldn't be offered sanctuary >while you're picking up Pigeons though. Ah, the old chestnuts. I like the Pigeons business, and don't think it's too overpowered - if you hop quietly between Holies, your route's fairly predictable. Maybe it'd be interesting if we permitted the [Catching Pigeon] Action to also be played at any Station containing a Player with a Pigeon (in which case you coax said Pigeon away). Hmm. >Proposal 660 - Loan Clamps [Action] > >1. it is far, far too cheap to initiate. Since Bronze is as common as water > (slight exaggeration, but you see my point) this would undoubtedly become > the primary offensive Clamp. It wouldn't, really, because the victim is kindly given the means to pay it off; it'd see more cases of self-clamping, I should think, with Players getting a free Gold and paying it off in instalments. Rarely would the Clamp be used offensively; with the victim pretty much guaranteed the option to get rid of it, you're just giving em the choice, and paying the initial Bronze for them. On the matter, Paul said:- >This would be >fairly dangerous when combined with a shunt to take eir gold token away... But, of course, you can only Shunt as your first Post-Move Action, so it wouldn't really work. Except if you had an accomplice to steal the Gold before the Victim had eir Turn, I suppose, which is quite amusing. But anyway, Dunx... > A Red or Green component would be more appropriate, I would have >thought. Maybe Green, but it seemed quite a purely-fiscal thing. > I can see the point of this (you lose all your tokens, and scramble around > looking for a Gold), and I can see a thriving Token Gift market > developing, A matter of finding enough Silvers and Bronzes to get by, if you've got a lot of other Tokens you don't want to lose... The idea of someone running out of everything and begging for enough to pay off their Loan Clamp seems amusing, though. > but not only does it seem appallingly Draconian it is entirely > out of step with how other Token loss states behave (cf Token Cascade, > particularly). It seemed a suitably harsh penalty for not paying it off; anything else (such as destroying the Clamp and all Tokens) would just encourage people to get a Loan Clamp, spend everything (or Hoard the Gold) and repeat as desired. I didn't realise there was a standard Token-loss system to be "out of step" with, though... Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 13:35:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31237 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 21:35:10 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 21:35:10 -0000 Received: from modem-112.sunbather.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.101.240] helo=my) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PvIo-00068F-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:35:06 +0000 Message-ID: <007701be763e$ca9d29e0$504b883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:39:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Fundamentally, it's one of those things - a bit like the goal Station really. >The whole genesis for this game is the UK BBC Radio 4 comedy show "I'm Sorry I >Haven't A Clue", and when Mornington Crescent has been played there they just >use Dollis Hill as a loop trap. Has it cropped up that often, then? Although I rarely manage to catch the show, I always thought it was just a one-off throwaway strategem from Willie Rushton that just happened to be echoed in a York game the day after, and that the majority of the station's infamy came from its reuse on the Web. I've no idea, mind. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 13:40:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1502 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 21:40:50 -0000 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.18) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 21:40:50 -0000 Received: from modem-63.ruthenium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.191] helo=franz-liszt) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PvOH-0007hC-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:40:45 +0000 Message-ID: <020b01be7640$971b8420$bf15883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:52:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have been wondering about the Dollis Hill Loop. Reply sent by email. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Mar 24 13:58:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11263 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 21:58:09 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 21:58:09 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Pvf6-000Cvp-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:58:09 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:58:14 GMT Message-ID: <36f95e19.21417123@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Game States 24/3/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not quite a week since the last one, but while I remember - Game states as of 21:55 GMT 24/3/99 are as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times GMT) ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long PaulWay 24-March-1999 17:19 12 MN-C Vanilla PaulWay 24-March-1999 17:19 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 24-March-1999 18:08 15 MN-R Rutts PaulWay 23-March-1999 08:12 [1] 16 MN-B Chateau RiffRaff 19-March-1999 15:35 [2] [1] again, pending PaulWay's response to a Buzz (a differet buzz than = last time, though). The time of the Buzz is given. [2] about due for a Timeout, I'd say. I shall leave it to PaulWay though, since e's next to play. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Mar 24 15:18:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24022 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Mar 1999 23:18:31 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 23:18:31 -0000 Received: from [24.95.40.144] (dhcp9540144.columbus.rr.com [24.95.40.144]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA22395 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:18:26 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:20:59 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game States 24/3/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Not quite a week since the last one, but while I remember - > >Game states as of 21:55 GMT 24/3/99 are as follows: > > Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times GMT) > ------------------------------------------------------ > 11 MN-L Long PaulWay 24-March-1999 17:19 > 12 MN-C Vanilla PaulWay 24-March-1999 17:19 > 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 24-March-1999 18:08 > 15 MN-R Rutts PaulWay 23-March-1999 08:12 [1] > 16 MN-B Chateau RiffRaff 19-March-1999 15:35 [2] > >[1] again, pending PaulWay's response to a Buzz (a differet buzz than last > time, though). The time of the Buzz is given. > >[2] about due for a Timeout, I'd say. I shall leave it to PaulWay though, > since e's next to play. Apologies... go ahead and time me out, I'll catch up next round... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 24 16:21:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25509 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 00:21:45 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 00:21:45 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA20760; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:21:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xman20639; Thu, 25 Mar 99 10:21:10 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:21:09 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428F9A@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:21:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, 25 March 1999 6:45, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > I have been wondering about the Dollis Hill Loop. Why Dollis Hill? Is > there a good reason, or is it just one of those things? Game tradition. I'm not quite sure when the first Dollis Hill Loop first happened; probably caused by Marcus Hill at the old Delphi site (which you'll hear murmurings of every now and again). Just one of those things, really. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 25 01:08:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28260 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 09:08:20 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 09:08:20 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25025 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:08:17 GMT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 09:08:17 UT Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id JAA10571; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:08:43 GMT Message-Id: <199903250908.JAA10571@u...> Date: 25 Mar 99 09:05:19 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-204-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 24-Mar-99 21:39 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Dollis Hill? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Has it cropped up that often, then? Although I rarely manage to catch the >show, I always thought it was just a one-off throwaway strategem from Willie >Rushton that just happened to be echoed in a York game the day after, and >that the majority of the station's infamy came from its reuse on the Web. I stand corrected. >I've no idea, mind. Well, ditto if the truth be told. I guess the word I'm struggling for here is 'mystique'. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 25 10:33:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1507 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 18:32:53 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 18:32:53 -0000 Received: from gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA06245 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:32:43 GMT Received: from ukaa04.uk.oracle.com by gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk via smtpd (for mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com [193.130.129.196]) with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 18:32:43 UT Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18014 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:32:42 GMT Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id SAA11914; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:33:08 GMT Message-Id: <199903251833.SAA11914@u...> Date: 25 Mar 99 18:26:45 +0000 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Current Reports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellows: Is anybody still using the Current reports on my web site? (linked to from the MN title page) I ask because they seem superfluous nowadays what with Kevan's efforts in this direction and the Current table in the ruleset, and because I could do woth the space. There's seven meg in those reports, which if no one is using them= anymore... I'll kill them over the weekend if no one objects. Thanks. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 25 10:47:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9443 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 18:47:08 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 18:47:08 -0000 Received: from modem-12.ibogaine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.72.140] helo=my) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QF9e-0007XC-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:46:59 +0000 Message-ID: <008501be76f0$79952a40$8c48883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:51:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Current Reports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Is anybody still using the Current reports on my web site? (linked to from >the MN title page) Not personally. Fire, as it were, away. Thanks again for all your work that I've stolen in this area, over the months, anyway. You're a credit to the force. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Mar 25 13:36:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7613 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 21:36:25 -0000 Received: from search.egroups.com (HELO search.findmail.com) (207.138.41.144) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 21:36:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 10733 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 21:36:24 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by search.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 21:36:24 -0000 Received: from modem-74.conductor.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.136.202] helo=my) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QHnX-0006Gt-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:36:21 +0000 Message-ID: <008401be7708$2080aca0$9673883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:32:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some comment on the other Proposals, then, in a quiet moment... >Proposal 653 - Let's go Loop the Loop [Multiple] Ambitious, and nicely worded. I fear it'll get a bit complex if two Loops have a Station in common and they start running simultaneously (Rushton moves to Amersham and starts the Amersham/Aldwych, Cryer then moves to Aldwych but starts the Aldwych/Ongar/British Museum instead). And I'm *still* leery of an Escape Action which doesn't involve starting at and fleeing from the Trap Station. Wordings of worry:- >Players in a Loop disregard (and thus do not perform) the Movement Phase of >eir Turn. Rather strange - it makes for Moves which don't actually cite a Station, which would appear rather bizarre; a Dollis Hill Loop could just look like: Rushton : [LV-2] Dollis Hill (BL) Cryer : [LV+1] Brooke-Taylor : Garden : [Out of Knip] Rushton : [Dollis Escape] Neasden (BL) >If there is only one Trap Station in the Loop, the >Piece stays where it is, and that Trap Station is a Valid Move. This seems oddly superfluous if no actual Moves are made. Am I misreading your gist? Interesting stuff, anyway, particularly once we've got some multi-Station Loops. The inclusion of new and exciting ways to avoid and stop them should be entertaining, too. >Proposal 654 - Voting Comments [Enactment] Good one. Although it'd be easier all round, I think, if comments were posted along with the Voting Results - less hassle for Dunx, and it'd encourage people to bother commenting if they knew their words (or uncontemplative silence) was going to be broadcast. >Proposal 655 - Day Tripper! [Enactment] Cute. I still mourn the old Railcards, of course, but this seems like quite a nice idea - the one-day duration of it is particularly good. Such is something I'd considered as a bit of realism for Zone Passes, but since you don't get many Turns in a Day (or you didn't in the old days), it's not much of an investment. I'm not sure how desirable the Cards might be, mind - it's fairly rare that people ever run out of Blacks, and when they do it's usually something to take advantage of (only having to Block one Station, knowing that your foe can't change Lines to get at you through other means, is a pleasing thing). Offering three Bronze as an alternative, and throwing in the next few Turns' Line Changes as well - I'm not sure, really. Mrm. The day-duration idea's really quite lovely, but I'm not sure it adds good things to the gameplay. Incidentally, implementation would be easier if you didn't bother keeping track of the issue date and just said "When Game Time passes midnight, all Day Rover Cards - even those in Nantuckets - are destroyed." >Proposal 656 - Let's Do the Sidestep Again [Multiple] > > A "[Dollis Escape]" Action may only be performed if the Actioning Player > is situated at Dollis Hill with an LV of 10 or more. "[Dollis Sidestep]" > may be performed without cost when the Actioning Player has an LV of 10 > or more. Unless I've got my wrong brain in, this just bundles the Escape into the Sidestep, without removing the Escape. A very strange thing to do, and my arbitrary and pointless "Escape only from the Hill itself" crusade takes an appropriately unimpressed stance. >Proposal 657 - Burnt Offering [Multiple] > >{ Comment: OK, so I didn't change the 'three' to 'five' last time... > resubmitted with this foolish oversight corrected. Ah, I did wonder what you were getting at. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Mar 25 14:29:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10490 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Mar 1999 22:29:28 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 22:29:28 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QIcu-0004Ar-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:26 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:23 GMT Message-ID: <36fcb6f3.966730@p...> References: <008401be7708$2080aca0$9673883e@my> In-Reply-To: <008401be7708$2080aca0$9673883e@my> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan commented: >>Proposal 656 - Let's Do the Sidestep Again [Multiple] >> >> A "[Dollis Escape]" Action may only be performed if the Actioning = Player >> is situated at Dollis Hill with an LV of 10 or more. "[Dollis = Sidestep]" >> may be performed without cost when the Actioning Player has an LV of= 10 >> or more. >Unless I've got my wrong brain in, this just bundles the Escape into the >Sidestep, without removing the Escape. A very strange thing to do, and = my >arbitrary and pointless "Escape only from the Hill itself" crusade takes= an >appropriately unimpressed stance. Such was my expectation. I say once more: why should a Player with an LV of 10 who would not be = held in a Dollis Hill loop be forced into one? Anyway, the Proposal doesn't actually bundle the two actions together - = it provides (I think) a sane way of permitting those with a high LV to = actually use it. I do wonder sometimes about bundling the two together as [Loop = Avoidance] or some such, which costs 1 Silver or requires an LV of 10 or more. This is my Proposal, by the way. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Mar 26 12:39:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32581 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Mar 1999 20:29:43 -0000 Received: from mail.netwalk.com (HELO nw2.netwalk.com) (205.156.197.5) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 20:29:43 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by nw2.netwalk.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA08342 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:29:39 -0500 X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:32:09 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Current Reports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Fellows: > >Is anybody still using the Current reports on my web site? (linked to from >the >MN title page) > >I ask because they seem superfluous nowadays what with Kevan's efforts in >this >direction and the Current table in the ruleset, and because I could do woth >the space. There's seven meg in those reports, which if no one is using them >anymore... I use the Charge Delta Calculator, and Dunx's Charge Deltas... can't use Kevan's device, being on a Mac. I never use currents.html, though. (resending this, since I didn't see it come through the first time) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Sat Mar 27 04:14:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10306 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Mar 1999 12:14:27 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 12:14:26 -0000 Received: from modem-9.samarium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.30.137] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Qryr-00023J-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:14:25 +0000 Message-ID: <006201be784b$9d57a640$891e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:16:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: MN-L: Game 11 Game State Document Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005E_01BE784B.9CB15420" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01BE784B.9CB15420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-transfer-encoding: 7bit content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" An announcement - I will be Inactive again between Tuesday 30 March (morning) and Tuesday 6 April (before noon) owing to a visit to Dad in Ireland. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01BE784B.9CB15420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
    An announcement - I = will be = Inactive again between Tuesday 30 March (morning) and Tuesday 6 April (befo= re = noon) owing to a visit to Dad in Ireland.
 
Jonathan.
 
eGroup home: http://www.e= Groups.com/list/l-nomic-d
Free Web-based e-mail groups by www.eGro= ups.com
------=_NextPart_000_005E_01BE784B.9CB15420-- From Sat Mar 27 04:41:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17040 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Mar 1999 12:41:21 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 12:41:21 -0000 Received: from modem-25.lansoprazole.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.75.153] helo=my) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QsOt-0007cr-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:41:19 +0000 Message-ID: <004701be784f$b95a3980$994b883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:45:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Mornomic Companion updated Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a fleeting note to say that it's on version 1.3 now, including suaver icons and a quick-reference Token Collection table. Downloadable from my Web page, as ever. Kick me if there's anything else that might be worth implementing. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From wayperp@p... Sun Mar 28 00:23:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29294 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Mar 1999 08:23:15 -0000 Received: from m7.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.153) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 1999 08:23:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 6413 invoked by uid 505); 28 Mar 1999 08:23:16 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: wayperp@p... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:23:16 -0000 Subject: MN: Absence Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've come in to work on a sunday night with hayfever still raging through my sinus cavities to tell you all that I'm officially now inactive and will be for the next two weeks. Enjoy yourselves. I will. Have fun, Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Sun Mar 28 21:41:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23095 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Mar 1999 05:41:19 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 1999 05:41:19 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10RUnW-0007Cg-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:41:18 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:41:05 GMT Message-ID: <37001116.1241779@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 47 Extension Notice Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46riends: Given Week 47's coincedence with te Real World festival of Easter, I = hereby declare that Week 47 will be extended to two calendar weeks in length and= will thus end on 13/4/99. Don't all cheer at once. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 30 14:04:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4640 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Mar 1999 22:04:20 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 22:04:20 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10S6cN-0005az-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:04:19 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:03:58 GMT Message-ID: <3700e24c.1106425@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Judgement Required in Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hear ye! Hear ye! Kevan has made a Move in Game 15 which Dunx has Buzzed, hence rendering = it Questionable. I call upon RiffRaff to act as Judge in this matter. May it please eir Worship, e will find arguments both for and against (as= well as the Move itself of course) in the Rushton Lounge. We await your Judgement with keen anticipation, and a Strawberry Mivvi. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 30 14:04:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4692 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Mar 1999 22:04:26 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 22:04:26 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10S6cS-0005az-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:04:25 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:04:01 GMT Message-ID: <3703f239.5183298@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 47- Votes on Week 46 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 653 Let's go Loop the Loop 2 - 1 3 Passes 654 Voting Coments 3 - - 3 Passes 655 Day Tripper! 3 - - 3 Passes 656 Let's Do the Sidestep Again 1 1 1 3 Fails=20 657 Burnt Offering 2 - 1 3 Passes 658 Gold Rush 2 1 - 3 Passes 659 God Help Us 2 1 - 3 Passes 660 Loan Clamps 1 - 2 3 Fails=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 653 (PaulWay) - FOR - - FOR AGA - - -=20 654 (PaulWay) - FOR - - FOR FOR - - -=20 655 (PaulWay) - FOR - - FOR FOR - - -=20 656 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR AGA - - -=20 657 (Dunx) - FOR - - AGA FOR - - -=20 658 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - - -=20 659 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - - -=20 660 (Kevan) - AGA - - AGA FOR - - -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 17 2 0 10 42 16 23 1 Halved: 8 1 5 21 0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +3 +0 +0 +5 +0 AGA Votes: I -2 -0 I -0 -2 I I -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +0 n +3 +3 n n +0 Voting/Own: a -3 -0 a -0 -3 a a -0 c c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 +0 t t +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i i -0 Finger/Pulse: v +5 +0 v +0 +0 v v +0 e e e e Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +0 +4 +0 = [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +9 +0 +3 +9 +0 Final Kudos: 11 17 1 0 8 30 16 23 0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Paul Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [*] Ruttsborough Award - PaulWay (Let's Go Loop the Loop) IMCS Clarity Award - PaulWay (Day Tripper) CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan (Gold Rush) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Mar 30 14:04:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4730 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Mar 1999 22:04:31 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 22:04:31 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10S6cU-0005az-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:04:26 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:04:04 GMT Message-ID: <3704f386.5517238@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2 Week 47 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Seven -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 661 - Recycle that rubbish! [Amendment] Amend the last sentence of Rule 1.7.39 (Ecofriendly) to read: This exchanges a pair of matching Plastic Tokens, or a Possession worth more than one Bronze Token, for a single Green Token. This counts as a Token Exchange Action, and any Possession used is automatically discarded. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 662 - Randomness Regulated [Enactment] If any Rule requires a random determination, such as a roll of a dice, = then this shall be done by the Speaker submitting a mail to the PBM dice = server. This shall be set up to send the response directly to the list. If the random determination isn't directly associated with numbers (such as choosing a player), the entities involved shall be labelled with an arbitrary number for the random determination, and this labelling will be included in the headers of the mail to the dice server. The message to send is as follows: (entries in are to= be replaced with the appropriate number or text.) To: dice@p... Subject: Random determination for #p l-nomic-d@egroups.com (or appropriate list) #s #d 1 #r 1 #l 1 #c #c #t Random determination for -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 663 - Proposal Revue [Amendment] {Actually tightening the proposal update process - read the old 0.4.3!} Replace the last sentence of Rule 0.4.3 with: A Player may update a Proposal e has in the current Week by emailing the required changes to the Speaker. This email should have a subject line = of 'MN: Updates for Proposals' - if it does not, the update may be = considered invalid. If the Proposal has less than four days to be Voted on, then = the Proposal is voted on in the next Week. When a Proposal is updated, all Votes for that Proposal are discarded, = and the Speaker must let those Voters know that they should re-vote for the Proposal in question. The Proposal in its updated form is then posted to the Discussion Lounge, and note should be made of in which Week the = Proposal is to be voted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 664 - Blonk Cheque [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------=20 Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain=20 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------=20 [Blonking ] Post 1.7.x 20 -1 Re=20 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------=20 =20 A Player may perform the Action of "[Blonking ]", where=20 is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning=20 Player. This Action may only be performed as the first Action of a=20 Player's Post-Move Action phase.=20 =20 The Blonking Player may destroy a single token in the possession of=20 the victim. This effect specifically overrides Money Belts.=20 =20 { Comment:=20 Yes this overrides Money Belts, and it's not terribly expensive, but=20 it is slow. Also, it cannot be combined with a Shunt or anything like=20 that.=20 =20 Another option I considered was Blonking splitting all metallic tokens=20 into their next lowest value, so Golds would go to Silvers. But I = thought=20 that was too powerful.=20 }=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 665 - Knerdling [Enactment] There shall be a Small, Unique, Dispensable Possession called a Knerdling Stick. If the following are true: - The Player, whose Turn it is, has received a Clamp Possession since e last took a Turn, and has not been Inactive during that period: - That Player is in possession of the Knerdling Stick, which e must have received prior to receiving the Clamp in question: Then the Player may play the Pre-Move Action of "Knerdling ", where is any Player (other than the Player who gave em the Clamp in the first place) whose position can be reached without a change of Line or of Line Direction, and provided that there are no Blocks, Bulkheads or other Players in between the Knerdling and Knerdled Players. Knerdling may only be performed as the first Action of a Turn. Upon doing this, the Clamp and the Knerdling Stick are removed from the Knerdling Player's Possessions and added to the Knerdled Player's Possessions. It should be noted that the Clamp is considered to be handed over before the Knerdling Stick, which thus cannot be used against that particular Clamp by the Knerdled Player. This is the only way in which a Player may get rid of a Clamp without performing the Clamp-removing Action specific to that type of Clamp. New object: Knerdling Stick (Small, Unique, Dispensable, costs 3 Bronze in the Emporium.) New Action: Knerdling (Pre-Move, 10 mins, cost 2 Red.) {Comment: The "Encyclopaedia Morningtonia" definition of Knerdling is based on truth: the term was, indeed, used in cricket commentary to describe a deliberate deflection of the ball behind the wicket. Hence the concept of deflecting an attack onto another target. But the Knerdled Player can use the Knerdling Stick emself next time... and of course, like the en-passant capture in chess, it can only be done in the first move after the situation occurs.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 666 - Vermicious Knids [Enactment] *The following Rule is to be Enacted: "A Player may perform the Action of "Knidding ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. The Knidded Player gains a "Knid Clamp" Indestructable Possession. A Player who is in possession of a Knid Clamp may not play the [Opening MC] Action, or make any Special Moves (those defined as such in Rule 1.5.0). Also, eir Home Station is considered Open to all Players, who may make Moves which pass through or land on it without having to pay a Toll. A Player may remove a Knid Clamp by playing the "De-Knidding" Action while situated at eir Home Station with an LV of zero. New Actions: Knidding (-2 Red) (Post, 20 mins) De-Knidding (-2 Blue) (Post, 10 mins) New Possession: Knid Clamp (Indestructable) *The following Amendments are also included in this Proposal: - Add "Clamps" to the list of Blocks, Impediments and Gaps in Rule 1.5.0 - Change the order of the Validity Checks, to put Special Moves first before LV Modifiers and Trivial Fares. Add the following sentence to the "Special Moves" section: "Special Moves (those mentioned in this section) are not considered to pass through intervening stations, and are not considered for Trivial Fares or the same-line bonus from the Token Collection Table." - Change "Greening" Action to 20 mins duration, and the "Anti-Narg" and "Degreening" to Post-Move Actions. {Comments: At last, a way to prevent a Player doing Special Moves - and also, describing Homes and Wilds as teleports, so a Player who Wilds to Leytonstone doesn't have to pay a toll to a Player whose Home is at Leyton: this is currently ambiguous, and it seems that all previous attempts to clarify this have failed. The price of the Clamp is not great, but nor is the price of release from it - a simple Pass at the Home Station will gain the requisite Blue Tokens and reduce LV to zero. Getting back to the Home Station to do this without use of the [Home] and [Wild] Actions could prove tricky, though... :-) And now that there is a way of preventing teleports, I see no problem with describing these moves as teleports (the previous objection being that there was no way of blocking it.) Also, all Clamping actions now take the same length of time and occur in the same phase of the Turn, and all Clamp-removing moves are now likewise consistent. I'm looking towards giving a generic Clamp status to most of the restrictions that can be placed by one Player on another.} *Amend Rule 1.7.10, adding the following at the end: - The action of "Walking" is valid at all times, and is specifically exempt from any and all Rules which place restrictions on Special Moves. {Comment: To prevent a Player being forced to a complete standstill when Knidded, Narged and stuck on the diagonal. The Player may still be forced to make a move of "Pass" by other Rules, for instance the Late Arrival...} { Speaker's Comment: Well, this was the most Beastly Amendment this Week. If I'd been a = little more on the ball, I would have invited special submissions... } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 667 - Mad Hatters Tea Party [Amendment] - Amend Rule 1.4.6, first paragraph: "There exist seven categories of Hat: A-Z, British Rail, Compass, Terminus, Verdant, Hard, Silly. The first five types of Hat may only be bought from Stations of the same type (Terminus Hats from a Terminus Station, for example): Hard and Silly Hats may be bought from any Emporium station. - Amend all references of [Collecting Hat] to [Purchasing Hat], an action which now costs 2 Bronze Tokens, in line with the cost of Silly and Hard Hats. - Change the bonus for [Cashing In Hats] to one Gold and two Silver Tokens, but remove the restriction that it can only take place at Bank. But add the following words: "No Player may Purchase a Hat in the same Turn as cashing Hats in." - Remove the paragraph about [Knocking Hat Off], and all reference to it in the Action Table. Also, repeal rule 1.7.34 and remove all reference to the [Hands On Hat] Action. {Comment: Since Hat-Knocking can now only be done by adjacent players, you may as well go the whole way and say that Hats can only be lost by Shunting. (There is only one station's worth of difference.) There is also little point in the [Hands On Hat] action any longer. To balance these changes, Hats now cost something rather than nothing, and one cannot cash them in the same turn as purchasing the last one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 668 - Pocket Fluff [Amendment] Replace the last sentence of the first paragraph of Rule 1.4.15 = (Nantucket) with:- If a Possession is in a Nantucket, the Player is not considered to be carrying it unless the Rule checking such possession specifically = details Nantucketed Possessions. The Possession is still considered to be in = play, however. { A bit of a fix for Uniqueness purposes (if Cryer Nantuckets the Drone Stick, Rushton can create a new one), with rewording to permit other Rules to fiddle around with Nantucket Possessions, if they really want to. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 669 - Dropped Packets [Multiple] In Rule 1.4.7 (The Suspect Package), replace "a Station passed through by the Player's Piece during eir Move" with "the Actioning Player's current location, or any Station e has passed through so far this Turn". Rename the rule as "Suspect Packages", also, actually. And make "[Dropping Package at ]" into a Neutral Action. { Just a fix so that you can drop the thing at your current location; you can't at the moment, which is rather strange. Making it Neutral permits you to drop it at your starting location, too; since you can drop it adjacent to such a Station, it's more a common sense thing than much of a change. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 670 - Farkle Off [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.5.12 (Farkling) to:- A Player may play a Move of "Farkle", provided that e performs no = Actions during that Turn. Such a Play is identical in every respect to a Move = of "Pass", except that, upon making it, the Player who makes it may adjust Game Time to any day and time. { The current Token-gain seems very out-of-keeping with the idea of "sacrificing one's Move, usually in a frivolous manner" - this replacement is more fitting, I think; the Player simply takes an inordinate amount of time to complete a Move which achieves nothing. (Which does, of course, permit some rather good strategies.) } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 671 - Vote Race [Multiple] { Comment: the current situation on who can vote when is at best unclear and at worst unjust - the Speaker (both the current one and eir predecessor) operate(d) a system pretty much as described here, but this has never been made clear. } [Amendment: Not Dead But Sleeping] Amend the first paragraph of Rule 0.5.2 (Voting and Proposal Adoption) so that it reads thus: All Players who have been Active at some point during the Nomic Week = for which Votes are being gathered may cast votes on current Proposals by sending eir votes in an email to the Speaker with a subject line of = "MN: Votes". If the email does not have this subject line, votes may be considered invalid. Players not Active at all during that period may = not vote. [Amendment: Charon In The Community] Amend the first paragraph of Rule 0.5.4 (Abstentions and Quorum) so that it reads thus: Any Player who could have Voted but who does not or who submits an invalid vote shall be deemed to have abstained. Players who could not have Voted are never counted as having abstained. If the total of abstentions exceeds the total of valid votes (i.e. votes FOR, AGAINST = or PASS), the Proposal fails to reach Quorum. { Comment: As a final point - note this sentence from Rule 0.9.1: "If a Player is Inactive at the end of the Week, no changes shall be made to eir Kudos." I would suggest that if this Proposal passes that this point be more rigidly enforced. } [End of Vote Race] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Mar 30 16:03:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4854 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Mar 1999 00:03:20 -0000 Received: from mb04.swip.net (193.12.122.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 00:03:20 -0000 Received: from opus (p111-20.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.194.148]) by mb04.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA08527 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:03:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000d01be7b09$ca21fde0$94c252c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:02:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: MN-B: Game 16 - Another Belated Buzz on Kevan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dunx (Duncan Ellis) wrote: As you mentioned in your comments, Kevan, there are no Quadrants defined in Chateau d'Eau. This is because there is no Meridian specified in the Guide Book. ¤¤¤ Where can these Guide Books be found? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Mar 30 21:27:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10033 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Mar 1999 05:27:55 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 05:27:55 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA06774 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:32:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:30:25 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Judgement Required in Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hear ye! Hear ye! > >Kevan has made a Move in Game 15 which Dunx has Buzzed, hence rendering it >Questionable. > >I call upon RiffRaff to act as Judge in this matter. > >May it please eir Worship, e will find arguments both for and against (as well >as the Move itself of course) in the Rushton Lounge. > >We await your Judgement with keen anticipation, and a Strawberry Mivvi. > >Dunx Ahem. I shall retire to my chambers to review the evidence, and return a verdict forthwith... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 31 00:23:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12972 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Mar 1999 08:23:28 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 08:23:28 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25011 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:23:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09783 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:23:26 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id JAA11346; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:23:52 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199903310823.JAA11346@u...> Date: 31 Mar 99 09:21:21 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-226-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 31-Mar-99 01:02 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: MN-B: Game 16 - Another Belated Buzz on Kevan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Where can these Guide Books be found? They're part of the Turin '57 Special Ruleset - each guidebook has its own Rule. So Chateau d'Eau (the Paris Metro Guidebook) is Rule 2.7.11, and so on. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 31 10:52:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28387 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Mar 1999 18:52:38 -0000 Received: from mb04.swip.net (193.12.122.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 18:52:38 -0000 Received: from opus (p110-43.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.194.107]) by mb04.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24504 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:52:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <015101be7ba7$8e344e20$6bc252c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:25:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Guidebooks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dunx replied: > Where can these Guide Books be found? They're part of the Turin '57 Special Ruleset - each guidebook has its own Rule. So Chateau d'Eau (the Paris Metro Guidebook) is Rule 2.7.11, and so on. ¤¤¤¤ Thanx, Dunx (had to be done) I found it (it is not in the HTML version, at least not in mine). I think I'll try my hand at making a Copenhagen Guidebook over Easter. After Easter, I'll probably join one of the games. Seeya, Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Mar 31 11:18:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10327 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Mar 1999 19:18:13 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 19:18:13 -0000 Received: from modem-114.brainy.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.97.242] helo=my) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10SQV9-0007Sf-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:18:12 +0100 Message-ID: <005401be7bab$d440e780$f261883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:21:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Guidebooks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I found it (it is not in the HTML version, at least not in mine). It really is screamingly ridiculous to have an obsolete HTML ruleset linked to from the main page. I'll see if I can gather a copy of QBasic from somewhere, to run the old conversion software again. Or sit down and write the thing from scratch in C++, if I think I can face it. (I probably can't. Not on a work night, anyway.) Sick beyond back teeth, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Apr 1 00:27:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7930 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Apr 1999 08:27:17 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 1999 08:27:17 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22288 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:27:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20904 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:27:06 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25968; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:27:31 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904010827.JAA25968@u...> Date: 01 Apr 99 09:25:07 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-230-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 31-Mar-99 20:21 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Guidebooks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >It really is screamingly ridiculous to have an obsolete HTML ruleset linked= >to from the main page. It is rather, isn't it? It seemed reasonable when it was only a Week or so behind, when I thought I would be able to run the converter, and (afterthat)= when I thought I might rewrite it in Perl. I'll take it away to a more remote area of the site shortly. Apologies to Ole for misleading em. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 5 15:13:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16259 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Apr 1999 22:12:51 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 1999 22:12:51 -0000 Received: from modem-71.technetium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.71] helo=my) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UHbs-0005aV-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:12:49 +0100 Message-ID: <003501be7fb2$0df1a8c0$3e49883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:17:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Real-life Crescent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just found this sitting in my "half-replied to" folder. Ptchsk. I'd almost made a couple of half-interesting points, so here it is completed. >It would have to be a rather edited version... Many of the possessions >would be gone, for example, and probably charge as well. The board I have >in mind, though, is quite complicated enough to handle a lot of data... >4-sided Circle Line state marker, dials to keep track of time, dry-erase >board for home and damaged stations... Hmm. Perhaps feasible, then, if trimmed down enough, although you'd have to be careful that the trimmage didn't unbalance anything. Taking away the fiddlier mathematical aspects of the game (Charge and Game Time), you might be able to get away with keeping sufficient information on the board - Homes and Damaged Stations can, of course, just have markers at those Stations. Hmm. >You could keep it relatively fast paced, as long as everyone was reasonably >familiar with the game, had appropriate reference cards, and maybe a time >limit. I get the feeling it won't be that easy to translate, myself; much of the game we play here is tilted towards lengthy consideration, and any attempt to play the thing face to face would hit snags. Keeping track of everyone's LV is going to be fiddly without use of a Laser Display-Board, and even then it'll still take a lot of glancing to and fro over the board to see just what everyone's up to. Shoddy board game (well, the travel edition, at least) "The London Game" uses the reasonable approach of a die-based LV - you roll a six-sided die and move that many stations along the line you're on (stop at an interchange to change). Something like that would probably be preferable for a real-life boardgame of Crescent, I suspect. And that's just LV. Tokens become quite different when they're gathered in piles in front of players - does Paul have six or seven Blacks, there? I'd better not ask, it'd give away my thoughts, and I've only got two minutes anyway. Game Time: Did Dunx take fifty-five or sixty-five minutes to perform those Actions? Wait while I add them up. Playing on a board does add an awful lot to the game - play would be much clearer if we all saw pieces being moved station-by-station around the map - but I think we've probably got far too much luggage to carry up that escalator. Worth debating for eternity, though. >Actually, if anyone's interested, I have a text file for a card game a >friend of mine and I created, called Leviathan - sort of like a cross >between Magic and Go Fish, with heavy doses of sarcasm. "Go Fish" rings bells, but only tiny ones, and they seem to lack labels. Sounds an intriguing thing, anyway - cough up a URL or mail the thing to me, if you have a moment. If anyone wants the Word file of the cards that I've put together for "Mornington Bartok", by the way, just give the nod. >That's my other >other project right now (after building the robots from Mystery Science >Theater 3000 Ah, the one thing I miss about having cable television within walking distance. >I do have a poster varnished onto wood, with nice brass hinges and handles, >and holes drilled in each station for pegs, plus a box of assorded pawns, >pegs, and tokens. Beautiful, I'm sure. Any scanned photos of the thing for us to envy? >Funny thing is, I'd been playing games similar to MC and Cress and Cheddar >Gorge all through high-school; my friends and I were always making up >elaborate non-games on the spot. It was a bit of a shock when I first >discovered MC several years ago... Cheapass Games - a fine company which various people have suddenly started recommending to me - have a nice coin-based MC-style game on their Web site, along with some other interesting little games (including, of course, one that I already made up a version of - the 'complete a three-letter-word' game is *far* more interesting if you play it on a 'one point for a three-letter word, two for a four, four for a five, etc.' basis, and just carry on until the board's full). www.cheapass.com, anyway. My Web connection seems to be a bit ill at the moment, so I can't find the direct reference to the coin game, nor check the name of the three-letter word one. Still. It's there somewhere. >Maybe if I ever manage to make a Pilgrimage, I'll teach you all to play >Fligett's Nodules, Kleimnot & Tchuse, and Ring the Frog. Now that I seem to have the loose change for a social life again, perhaps it's time to wonder if any of the Pilgrims would have any idea who I was. When's the next one due? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 5 15:51:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3413 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Apr 1999 22:51:32 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 1999 22:51:32 -0000 Received: from modem-17.plutonium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.46.145] helo=my) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UIDG-0002Ai-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:51:29 +0100 Message-ID: <005601be7fb7$73afdb00$3e49883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:49:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 47 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 661 - Recycle that rubbish! [Amendment] Very nice, if it's safe to assume that Clamps and other non-purchasable things are "worthless" rather than "priceless"... I still think two matching Plastics for a Green is expensive, though, when the whole point of Green Actions is to be neutral and potentially useless (it's quite sad that bluffing Wilds isn't really an option these days) - a single Plastic seems fair, or *any* two Plastics seems compromise. >Proposal 662 - Randomness Regulated [Enactment] Rule 0.1.3 (The Only Way To Die) beats you to it, I'm afraid. And does things a little more reasonably - the PBM dice server should only be used if the rules specifically require a *dice* roll; the Speaker is free to use whatever means e wishes to establish mere "random" events (initial Game Times, Judges, Playing Orders, etc), which is fine with me - although it's open to abuse, Mornington Nomic has never been ruthlessly competitive, and the alternative of having every such random event accompanied by an automated dice roll in the Discussion Lounge just seems absurd. Good to have the summary of the message format, though - such would make a fine addition to Rule 0.1.3. >Proposal 663 - Proposal Revue [Amendment] > >{Actually tightening the proposal update process - read the old 0.4.3!} Great Portland Street! I had no idea. The whole idea of changing Proposals midweek is, of course, rather annoying and awkward. Better to deny it entirely, I think, although this certainly plugs the hole admirably for now. >Proposal 664 - Blonk Cheque [Action] Nicely simplistic - it fits very well as an alternative Shunt, and makes for a splendid verb. I'm not sure it'd see a lot of use, though; the only real advantages it brings are (a) bypassing Money Belts, and (b) mucking up someone's Tokens without losing LV. The first point is fairly moot since you can (can't you? The Web denies me a current ruleset) steal Money Belts these days, which I think most people will choose to do, although a Dead-End Shunt bypasses the things just as well, of course. The second is a fair enough thing, though, I suppose, making it a nice counterpoint to Shadowing. The twenty-minute duration seems a bit of a harsh penalty, though, with all its "sister" Actions taking a mere ten. >Proposal 665 - Knerdling [Enactment] A nice image; I'm not entirely sure how easy they'll be to use - how often another Player will be a valid Target - but it might be interesting finding out. Passing the Stick along seems a nice means of apology (Brockian Ultra-Cricket?), but a bit counter intuitive - I'm not sure if it'd work better if the Stick were destroyed, or simply made more expensive; a near-permanent Clamp repellent is an appealing thought. >Proposal 666 - Vermicious Knids [Enactment] I had to ask the Internet what a Vermicious Knid was, in the end. I thought it was either a Jabberwock or Blackadder reference ("And did you vanquish the Nibble-Pibblies?"), but it wasn't either. Roald Dahl, in a book I read when I was maybe six or seven. Whyever did it ring such a loud bell? A nice thing, anyway; the game becomes very, very different when you're denied Special Moves. The removal seems rather harsh, though - getting Home *and* slowing down *and* spending Blues seems a bit too much to ask. > - Add "Clamps" to the list of Blocks, Impediments and Gaps in Rule >1.5.0 Well done that man. > - Change the order of the Validity Checks, to put Special Moves >first before LV Modifiers and Trivial Fares. Add the following sentence. >to the "Special Moves" section: "Special Moves (those mentioned in this >section) are not considered to pass through intervening stations, and >are not considered for Trivial Fares or the same-line bonus from the >Token Collection Table." Um. Confusing. Aside from a Wild becoming Illegal if out of your LV range, it seems a bit too convoluted to put Special Moves before Trivial Fares and then to say "If you play one of these, skip the Trivial Fares". Or am I missing something? > Also, all Clamping actions now take the same length of time and >occur in the same phase of the Turn, and all Clamp-removing moves are >now likewise consistent. I'm looking towards giving a generic Clamp >status to most of the restrictions that can be placed by one Player on >another.} A good direction to be heading in; bravo to you, masked man, whoever you are (I still can't quite tell Paul and Dunx apart in their Proposing, for some reason). I'm not quite sure if we need a generic "This is what a Clamp is, children." rule somewhere, with other rules just saying "Hello, I'm a Clamp." - there's not really a lot to Clampness, when you look at it. Tangentially, I think it might be worthwhile shifting many of the current Actions to "Neutral" status; there really are very few that need to be limited to before or after a Move... > - The action of "Walking" is valid at all times, and is >specifically exempt from any and all Rules which place restrictions on >Special Moves. > {Comment: To prevent a Player being forced to a complete standstill >when Knidded, Narged and stuck on the diagonal. The Player may still be >forced to make a move of "Pass" by other Rules, for instance the Late >Arrival...} Hmm. Probably a good shout. Nicely intuitive, anyway. >Proposal 667 - Mad Hatters Tea Party [Amendment] Interesting. As things stand (to generalise completely unfairly from my own thoughts), we tend to collect hats regardless, considering a run to Bank if we have the complete set. This would make Hat collecting much more of a rarity, which is probably a good thing (there does tend to be a lot of faffing around collecting Hats just because they're free and might be useful), but it does make the Hat Trick rather more obvious. I suppose the removal of the Bank requirement balances it, though. Hmm. Still a fairly small prize for the things, actually, considering the effort. >Proposal 671 - Vote Race [Multiple] Very good points. And I laughed far too hard and long at "Charon in the Community". Oh dear. Killing a Monday night, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 5 15:51:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3427 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Apr 1999 22:51:34 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 1999 22:51:34 -0000 Received: from modem-17.plutonium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.46.145] helo=my) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UIDN-0002Ai-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:51:34 +0100 Message-ID: <005701be7fb7$779d68e0$3e49883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:54:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Judgement Required in Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite a few days ago, RiffRaff said:- >Ahem. I shall retire to my chambers to review the evidence, and return a >verdict forthwith... I'll clear my throat a bit. It's been more than time enough to pick a new Judge, but there's not necessarily a need to do so. (I've a feeling we're running a bit thin on Active Players, too.) Actually it'd probably be a good idea to only pick Judges (at least initially) from the set of Mentors, wouldn't it? It'd spare the newer and less "public-spirited" (in the nicest possible way) Players. Hmm. Pft. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 5 19:19:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13456 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 02:19:28 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 02:19:28 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA04378 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:24:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:21:55 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Judgement Required in Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Quite a few days ago, RiffRaff said:- > >>Ahem. I shall retire to my chambers to review the evidence, and return a >>verdict forthwith... Whoops! God, I'm sorry. I'll do it right now... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 5 20:17:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11371 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 03:16:19 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 03:16:19 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA10541 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:21:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:18:47 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Judgement Required in Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, first of all, the new Loop rules went into effect on the 30th, before Judgement was invoked, but after the disputed move was made. So, I assume I have to judge this based on the previous rules, right? Good thing the HTML ruleset hasn't been updated, then. :) 1) "If the previous non-Pass Move in a Game is "Dollis Hill", Dollis Hill is a Valid Move. In addition, all Stations other than Dollis Hill are Invalid Move destinations, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Dollis Sidestep]" or "[Dollis Escape]" Action this Turn." 2)Kevan is Narg Clamped, and can't move diagonally. 3) You can't start at Dollis Hill, move through Dollis Hill, _and_ end at Dollis Hill, with a LV of any less than 14. So the question is, does 1 cancel out 2 and 3? Well, yes, the DH rule _has_ to take precedence over the Clamp and LV, otherwise Kevan couldn't have gotten to DH in the first place. Dollis Hill is a valid destination (the _only_ valid destination), and no rule says that you have to take the most direct route there, or anything like that. So, I guess I have to go with Kevan on this one. I'm glad we have new loop rules, though, because IMHO it's rather contrary to common sense. --Riff (p.s. - Your turn in Game 12, Dunx; no fair trying to stall till PW gets back. ;) ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 5 21:01:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 981 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 04:00:53 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 04:00:53 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA14367 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:05:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:03:21 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Real-life Crescent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Actually, if anyone's interested, I have a text file for a card game a >>friend of mine and I created, called Leviathan - sort of like a cross >>between Magic and Go Fish, with heavy doses of sarcasm. > >"Go Fish" rings bells, but only tiny ones, and they seem to lack labels. >Sounds an intriguing thing, anyway - cough up a URL or mail the thing to me, >if you have a moment. Xac (the other author of the game) used to have it somewhere in the depths of his page, but I can't find it, so it'll have to be e-mail. I'll send it along... The tone is a bit ascerbic in spots... I was angstier back then. :) >If anyone wants the Word file of the cards that I've put together for >"Mornington Bartok", by the way, just give the nod. Yes, indeed! I could get our gaming group to do some playtesting, if you like. >Ah, the one thing I miss about having cable television within walking >distance. The final season starts next week... > >>I do have a poster varnished onto wood, with nice brass hinges and handles, >>and holes drilled in each station for pegs, plus a box of assorded pawns, >>pegs, and tokens. > >Beautiful, I'm sure. Any scanned photos of the thing for us to envy? Unfortunately not... Perhaps someday I'll get off my lazy butt and do a web page, for things like that... maybe... someday. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Apr 6 06:53:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9302 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 13:53:47 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 13:53:47 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11932 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:53:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11591 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:53:42 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id OAA18930; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:53:41 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904061353.OAA18930@u...> Date: 06 Apr 99 14:49:40 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Dunx - A Scarce Resource Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: With due apologies to PaulWay for stealing eir joke, I should apologise to everyone for neglecting my Speakerly duties. As Kevan pointed out, I should properly have selected another Judge in the Game 15 matter. Thanks are due both to Kevan for pointing out the lapse, and to RiffRaff for Judging in the= end after all. In all honesty, I probably should have gone Inactive over Easter but I thought I would have more time than I actually did. Heigh ho. Apologies also for playing slowly - the same reasons apply. Moves to follow.= -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Apr 6 07:48:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7298 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 14:48:25 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 14:48:25 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25808 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:48:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07207 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:39:07 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id PAA20149; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:39:07 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904061439.PAA20149@u...> Date: 06 Apr 99 15:37:52 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States 6/4/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A quick update following on from my own delayed moves: Game states as of 21:55 GMT 24/3/99 are as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times BST) [1] ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long RiffRaff 30-March-1999 08:11 12 MN-C Vanilla RiffRaff 6-April-1999 14:47 [2] 13 MN-G Finsbury Kevan 26-March-1999 14:58 [3] [4] 15 MN-R Rutts Dunx 26-March-1999 21:58 [3] [4] [5] 16 MN-B Chateau Kevan 6-April-1999 15:14 [2] [1] UK clocks have gone forward following the Spring equinox, so it's British Summer Time from here on in (GMT+0100) [2] just played it, so a bit of a cheek. [3] PaulWay is next in the play order, but of course e's Inactive at the mo.= [4] actually, these are GMT. [5] I'm a little discombobulated by Kevan getting the Judgement - I'll Move once I've got my head together. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Apr 6 14:38:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8436 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 21:38:17 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 21:38:17 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UdXz-0007ED-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:38:17 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 21:37:35 GMT Message-ID: <370a7db5.642245@p...> References: <005601be7fb7$73afdb00$3e49883e@my> In-Reply-To: <005601be7fb7$73afdb00$3e49883e@my> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 2 Week 47 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:49:43 +0100, you wrote: >>Proposal 664 - Blonk Cheque [Action] >The first point is fairly moot since you >can (can't you? The Web denies me a current ruleset) steal Money Belts = these >days Sadly, no - that amendment failed. Otherwise I would have had it away = with your moneybelt in Game 13 some time ago. Good comments, though - I find myself agreeing with them all, so I shan't clutter the list further with my own witterings (until I find something = new to say). Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Apr 6 14:45:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12051 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Apr 1999 21:45:10 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 1999 21:45:10 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Udef-000NVw-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:45:10 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 21:44:33 GMT Message-ID: <370b7e9d.874319@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 47 Mid-Week Message Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a reminder not to expect any Week End stuff today since Week 47 has = been decreed to be two calendar weeks in length. Don't forget to vote (if you = haven't already). Week 47 will be the last Week of Year 2 - since the Year end falls in = what would be Week 48, we'll tick over into Year 3, Week 1. With the long Week, I'm sure we'll have lots of new Proposals for the new= Year! Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 7 08:00:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10230 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Apr 1999 15:00:06 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 1999 15:00:06 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21134 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:00:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08683 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:59:59 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id PAA00672; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:59:59 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904071459.PAA00672@u...> Date: 07 Apr 99 15:59:03 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game 12 - RiffRaff Wins! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: RiffRaff has, as far as I can see, won Game 12. Congratulations to em - a fine win. Two noteworthy Moves on the trot, in fact, to finish off my own feeble manoeuvrings. The full rankings will be posted shortly, but in the meantime the points for= those Players in the Game are as follows - Player had delta now ----------------------------------- dave 0 -1 0 Dunx 8 -1 7 PaulWay 1 -1 0 RiffRaff 0 +4 4 ... which catapults RiffRaff into joint third behind myself and Kevan. Lawks. This also means that the Cryer Lounge is free for Game 17: both RiffRaff and= our new Player Ole have expressed a preference for a Team Game, with which I= would have to say I concur. So - who's for Capture the Flag? Perhaps on the Brighton and Hove Metro? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Apr 7 11:05:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30477 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Apr 1999 18:04:21 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 1999 18:04:21 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA05433 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:09:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:06:50 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game 12 - RiffRaff Wins! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Player had delta now > ----------------------------------- > dave 0 -1 0 > Dunx 8 -1 7 > PaulWay 1 -1 0 > RiffRaff 0 +4 4 You've forgotten Kevan, who was deleted from the list due to inactivity, but played nonetheless... cheers, --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Apr 7 11:07:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32399 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Apr 1999 18:07:46 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 1999 18:07:46 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA05771 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:12:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:10:15 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game 12 - RiffRaff Wins! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This also means that the Cryer Lounge is free for Game 17: both RiffRaff and >our new Player Ole have expressed a preference for a Team Game, with which I >would have to say I concur. > >So - who's for Capture the Flag? Perhaps on the Brighton and Hove Metro? Oog... I'm still getting used to London... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Apr 7 23:15:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24690 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Apr 1999 06:15:33 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 1999 06:15:33 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10V868-00002g-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:15:33 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 06:14:47 GMT Message-ID: <370c4647.1251383@p...> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Game 12 - RiffRaff Wins! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RiffRaff wrote: >> Player had delta now >> ----------------------------------- >> dave 0 -1 0 >> Dunx 8 -1 7 >> PaulWay 1 -1 0 >> RiffRaff 0 +4 4 > >You've forgotten Kevan, who was deleted from the list due to inactivity, >but played nonetheless... A fair point, but one I am choosing to ignore. Rule 1.1.9 talks of = Players in a Game - for the sake of sanity, I choose to interpret that as meaning = Players playing in the Game when it finishes - other interpretations are = unnecessarily hard to apply, especially retrospectively (it took me ages to work out = the scores for all the Games played when this Rule came in as it was...). Expect an amendment shortly to clarify this. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Apr 7 23:15:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24697 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Apr 1999 06:15:35 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 1999 06:15:35 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10V86A-00002g-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:15:34 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 06:14:49 GMT Message-ID: <370d47f4.1680114@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Reworded Proposal 666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As requested by the Proposer, and in accordance with the current wording = of Rule 0.4.3, I am obliged to distribute this amended Proposal 666. Updated = Propossal follows (new section has change bars): Proposal 666 - Vermicious Knids [Enactment] *The following Rule is to be Enacted: "A Player may perform the Action of "Knidding ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. The Knidded Player gains a "Knid Clamp" Indestructable Possession. A Player who is in possession of a Knid Clamp may not play the [Opening MC] Action, or make any Special Moves (those defined as such in Rule 1.5.0). Also, eir Home Station is considered Open to all Players, who may make Moves which pass through or land on it without having to pay a Toll. A Player may remove a Knid Clamp by playing the "De-Knidding" Action while situated at eir Home Station with an LV of zero. New Actions: Knidding (-2 Red) (Post, 20 mins) De-Knidding (-2 Blue) (Post, 10 mins) New Possession: Knid Clamp (Indestructable) *The following Amendments are also included in this Proposal: - Add "Clamps" to the list of Blocks, Impediments and Gaps in Rule 1.5.0 - Change the order of the Validity Checks, to put Special Moves first before LV Modifiers and Trivial Fares. Add the following sentence to the "Special Moves" section: "Special Moves (those mentioned in this section) are not considered to pass through intervening stations, and are not considered for Trivial Fares or the same-line bonus from the Token Collection Table." | -Amend Rule 1.5.0: the "LV Checks" section is to be amended as | follows: | "If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current | Piece location is not precisely the same as the Player's LV, and the | Player has not played an Action which permits a Special Move (as = defined | under "Special Moves" in this Rule), then the Move becomes Invalid." - Change "Greening" Action to 20 mins duration, and the "Anti-Narg" and "Degreening" to Post-Move Actions. {Comments: At last, a way to prevent a Player doing Special Moves - and also, describing Homes and Wilds as teleports, so a Player who Wilds to Leytonstone doesn't have to pay a toll to a Player whose Home is at Leyton: this is currently ambiguous, and it seems that all previous attempts to clarify this have failed. The price of the Clamp is not great, but nor is the price of release from it - a simple Pass at the Home Station will gain the requisite Blue Tokens and reduce LV to zero. Getting back to the Home Station to do this without use of the [Home] and [Wild] Actions could prove tricky, though... :-) And now that there is a way of preventing teleports, I see no problem with describing these moves as teleports (the previous objection being that there was no way of blocking it.) Also, all Clamping actions now take the same length of time and occur in the same phase of the Turn, and all Clamp-removing moves are now likewise consistent. I'm looking towards giving a generic Clamp status to most of the restrictions that can be placed by one Player on another.} *Amend Rule 1.7.10, adding the following at the end: - The action of "Walking" is valid at all times, and is specifically exempt from any and all Rules which place restrictions on Special Moves. {Comment: To prevent a Player being forced to a complete standstill when Knidded, Narged and stuck on the diagonal. The Player may still be forced to make a move of "Pass" by other Rules, for instance the Late Arrival...} Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@z... Thu Apr 8 01:12:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 611 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Apr 1999 08:12:12 -0000 Received: from m1.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.135) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 1999 08:12:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 1997 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Apr 1999 08:12:09 -0000 Received: from im8.egroups.com (HELO egroups.com) (10.1.1.18) by im1.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 1999 08:12:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 5741 invoked by uid 505); 8 Apr 1999 08:12:08 -0000 In-Reply-To: <370d47f4.1680114@p...> From: kevan@z... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:12:08 -0000 Subject: MN: Re: Reworded Proposal 666 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > | -Amend Rule 1.5.0: the "LV Checks" section is to be amended as > | follows: > | "If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current > | Piece location is not precisely the same as the Player's LV, and the > | Player has not played an Action which permits a Special Move (as defined > | under "Special Moves" in this Rule), then the Move becomes Invalid." This leaves Line-Changing untouched, though; going Home to a different Line becomes Invalid if you don't pay an extra Black, and all that. Not too pleasing. This seems to be overcomplicating Rule 1.5.0 far too much, really. And still has the problems I mentioned whenever I mentioned them. Mid-breakfast, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Apr 8 07:57:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18585 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Apr 1999 14:57:19 -0000 Received: from mail9.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.22) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 1999 14:57:19 -0000 Received: from modem-37.iodine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.37] helo=franz-liszt) by mail9.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10VGF2-0002QH-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:57:17 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01be81d0$93ab2480$251a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:59:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Reworded Proposal 666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> | -Amend Rule 1.5.0: the "LV Checks" section is to be amended as >> | follows: >> | "If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current >> | Piece location is not precisely the same as the Player's LV, and the >> | Player has not played an Action which permits a Special Move (as defined >> | under "Special Moves" in this Rule), then the Move becomes Invalid." > >This leaves Line-Changing untouched, though; going Home to a different Line becomes Invalid if you don't pay an extra Black, and all that. Not too pleasing. This seems to be overcomplicating Rule 1.5.0 far too much, really. And still has the problems I mentioned whenever I mentioned them. Nope, not as I read it: Home is in the "Special Moves" section of Rule 1.5.0 (look at it), and thus exempt from Trivial Fares (see the earlier amendments to the Line Change action contained in Proposal 666: "Special Moves are not considered for Trivial Fares". Maybe this ought to be "considered exempt from Trivial Fares", but the sense seems clear enough to me: Trivial Fares (the Line-Change Black Token cost) clearly apply only to non-Special Moves.) Thus, as I read it, Homing or Wilding to a station on a different line does *NOT* cost the Line Change black token, nor does any other Special Move (the currently included ones in Rule 1.5.0 are Home, Wild, Marmalade Sandwiches, Strile, Stubbery, Walking.) And nor, with this new amended version of the Proposal, do they appear to be limited by the Player's LV (the Proposer has evidently taken notice of that particular bug you found), unless a specific amount of LV is needed for the Action (e.g. LV >= 5 to Strile - mentioned in the Striling rule.) However, Special Moves will also, it appears, not be eligible for the same-Line bonus (which, for me, stands to reason: if there isn't a penalty for changing Line with one, there shouldn't be a bonus for staying on Line. Likewise the converse: if there *is* a bonus for staying on Line when playing a Special Move, there should be a penalty for not doing so. It appears the Proposer prefers the former interpretation.) It doesn't look too complicated to me: you can play a Special Move (denoted by needing a Pre-Move Action to enable it, and considered a teleport) or a Standard Move (LV-dependent, passes through the intervening stations, and is eligible for a same-Line bonus or different-Line penalty.) Besides, the problem you point out (does Homing to a different Line cost a Black Token for changing Line?) is already there in the original ruleset, where it is not clear whether (1) a Home, Wild, or any other Special Move, passes through the intervening stations or not, and (2) whether they are counted for Line Changes (or the same-Line bonus) or not. This Proposal certainly does not make the situation worse in that respect - in fact, better, since it specifically states that they do not pass through intervening stations (not previously clear), and makes them ineligible for both the same-line bonus and the line-change fare (not previously clear). Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Thu Apr 8 13:41:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21435 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Apr 1999 20:41:30 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 1999 20:41:30 -0000 Received: from modem-55.lansoprazole.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.75.183] helo=my) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10VLc6-0005n7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:41:28 +0100 Message-ID: <001201be8200$c9fa7d80$b74b883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:40:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Reworded Proposal 666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>This leaves Line-Changing untouched, though; going Home to a different >>Line becomes Invalid if you don't pay an extra Black, and all that. Not >>too pleasing. This seems to be overcomplicating Rule 1.5.0 far too much, >>really. And still has the problems I mentioned whenever I mentioned >>them. > > Nope, not as I read it: Home is in the "Special Moves" section of >Rule 1.5.0 (look at it), and thus exempt from Trivial Fares (see the >earlier amendments to the Line Change action contained in Proposal 666: >"Special Moves are not considered for Trivial Fares". My apologies - I'd forgotten the fact that an earlier bit of the Proposal put that amendment in. > However, Special Moves will also, it appears, not be eligible for >the same-Line bonus A fair thing, I think, but awkwardly implemented - being unable to claim the Token Bonus should be mentioned in the Token Collection Table, not buried amid the Move Validity stuff. Such is really my gripe with the Proposal - that although it takes some decent action here and there, it seems to go about it in rather a complicated manner; Dunx commented that Rule 1.5.0 is already unwieldy; Proposal 666 would just make it worse. Too wide a Proposal, really - the Knidding idea is particularly good, but the rest drags it down in my estimation. > It doesn't look too complicated to me: you can play a Special Move >(denoted by needing a Pre-Move Action to enable it, and considered a >teleport) or a Standard Move (LV-dependent, passes through the >intervening stations, and is eligible for a same-Line bonus or >different-Line penalty.) Hmm. Maybe this is a good direction to take things, actually, to simplify the whole Move Legality business - Special Moves are always Valid (unless they themselves give circumstances when they aren't), normal Moves are Invalid if any particular Rule (Blocking, Maelbergs, Charge Spiral) declares them as such. Hmm. > Besides, the problem you point out (does Homing to a different Line >cost a Black Token for changing Line?) is already there in the original >ruleset, Not really. It doesn't matter whether you pay the Black or not, since the Move becomes valid either way when we hit the Special Moves section. Same old line, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 8 22:35:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23837 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Apr 1999 05:35:41 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 1999 05:35:41 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10VTx6-0007Nv-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 05:35:40 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 05:34:53 GMT Message-ID: <370e916d.800726@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Emergency Proposal 032 - Circular Queue [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves) such that the entry for "Dollis Hill Loop" appears last in section 5 (Loops and Cascades). { Comment: fixing the bug where Charge Spirals take precedence over = Dollis Hill loops. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Raised by Dunx, 9/4/99 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 12 03:30:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3757 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Apr 1999 10:30:31 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 10:30:31 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03821 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:30:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05462 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:30:27 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id LAA27732; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:30:26 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904121030.LAA27732@u...> Date: 12 Apr 99 11:28:35 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-250-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 09-Apr-99 06:34 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 032 Passes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Emergency Proposal 032 - Circular Queue [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves) such that the entry for "Dollis Hill Loop" appears last in section 5 (Loops and Cascades). { Comment: fixing the bug where Charge Spirals take precedence over Dollis Hill loops. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= Raised by Dunx, 9/4/99 Kevan voted FOR - it passed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= { Speaker's Comment: I'll update the ruleset accordingly at the Week End. } -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 12 03:56:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12813 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Apr 1999 10:56:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 10:56:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11865 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:56:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07731 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:56:15 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id LAA19644; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:56:14 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904121056.LAA19644@u...> Date: 12 Apr 99 11:50:08 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game 17 Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Game 17 will be starting in the Cryer Lounge shortly. This will be a Capture the Flag Game (section 2.8) played on the standard map. Those who have expressed interest so far are myself, Kevan, RiffRaff, and our new Player Ole (I've assumed e wants to play as "Ole" - obviously, this can be changed). Due to the nature of a Team Game (ie everyone has to pick a team!) we can't start yet even though there are sufficient Players. I shall try once again to start the Aubergine Team, but we need one more Team at least before the Game can commence. Play on! -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 12 05:45:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25250 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Apr 1999 12:45:42 -0000 Received: from mb04.swip.net (193.12.122.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 12:45:42 -0000 Received: from opus (p112-26.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.194.218]) by mb04.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA13428 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:45:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <030c01be84e2$3c49d6e0$bbc152c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:33:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Copenhagen Rulebook, 1st sketch Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02EF_01BE84F1.7C22E900" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------=_NextPart_000_02EF_01BE84F1.7C22E900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-transfer-encoding: 8bit content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is a rough draft for a Copenhagen Rulebook: -------------------------------------------------------- Rule 2.7.11 - Copenhagen S-train Guidebook (Sorgenfri) Mornington Crescent may be played on the S-train net of Copenhagen. *A map of the S-train net can be found at: *Goal: Sorgenfri *Bank: Nordhavn *Loop: Fuglebakken *Circle Line Equivalent: formed by two lines, Lines C and M between Hellerup and Vanløse (not counting the part of Line M east of Vanløse and the ends of Line C.) *River: There is no river. *Line Codes: The letter of the Line (Line A's line code is A, for instance.) Lille Nord (between Hillerød and Helsingør) is LN. *Station names may include æ/Æ, ø/Ø and/or å/Å. æ or Æ is æ or Æ in HTML and may be substituted by ae or AE in plain text. ø or Ø is ø or Ø in HTML and may be substituted by oe (or o/) or OE (or O/) in plain text. å or Å is å or Å in HTML and may be substituted by aa (or a0) or AA (or A0) in plain text. *Station classifications are as on the London Underground, but translated into Danish. The following categories of Station exist: * A to Z - An A to Z Station is one with the string "vej", "gade" or "parken" in its Name. Dybbølsbro is an A to Z Station, too. * DSB - A DSB Station is one that has a connection to DSB. Those are: Køge, Høje Taastrup, Glostrup, Valby, København H, Nørreport, Østerport, Hellerup, Klampenborg, Hillerød, Helsingør * Compass - A Compass Station is one with the string "nord", "nørre", "syd", "øst" or "vest" in its Name. * Green - A Green Station is one with the string "grøn" in its Name. * High - A High Station is one with the string "høje" in its Name. * Hill - A Hill Station is one with the string "bakke" or "bjerg" in its Name. Ishøj is a Hill Station, too. * Holy - A Holy Station is one with the string "bisp" or "sjæl" in its name. * Co-Situated - A Co-Situated Station is one which has more than one Line serving it at the same map location, but which is not a Terminus. * Park - A Park Station is one with the string "park" in its Name. * Plant - A Plant Station is one with the string "birk", "elle", "have", "kvist", "lind", "lund" or "skov" in its name. * Populated - A Populated Station is one with the string "by", "borg" or "gård" in its name. * Terminus - A Terminus Station is a Station that has at least one Line emerging from it in only one direction. Each such Line is said to terminate at that Station. * Verdant - A Verdant Station is one with the string "park", "grøn" or "have" in its name. *Since Interchange Stations have not been defined, all Termini count as Interchanges. *Due to the fact that there are far fewer Park or Green stations on the S-train net, any and all of the standard rules about Parks and Greens Cascades do not apply. An alternative of a Plant Cascade ("birk", "elle", "have", "kvist", "lind", "lund" or "skov") replaces these rules and applies instead, being terminated by a move to a "skov" or "have" station. *Zone Passes are issued for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or All Zones. The price of a Zone Pass is one Bronze Token less than the number of zones covered. An All Zones Pass costs 10 Bronze Tokens. *There are four Quadrants. Bispebjerg is the Meridian. Svanemøllen and Malmparken are north of Bispebjerg, Skovlunde and Nordhavn are south of Bispebjerg. Emdrup is straight north of Bispebjerg, Solbjerg is straight south of Bispebjerg. Langgade, Hvidovre and Friheden are west of Bispebjerg, Hillerød, Valby and Åmarken are east of Bispebjerg. *Lines with Restricted Opening Lines with + are open Mon-Fri 0600-1800, Sat 0900-1400 (Line E between Hellerup and Hillerød is effectively a + line) Lines with x have these Opening Times (Mon-Fri): Bx 0630-0800 (Høje Taastrup-København H), 1530-1700 (København H-Høje Taastr up) Ex 0630-0800 and 1530-1700 (both directions) The night break is 0030-0500 on all lines (0030-0600 night between Sat and Sun) -------------------------------------------------- Comments, anyone? I have made no Manoeuvres nor any Gambits. This aspect doesn't make much sense to me. I have considered using a larger map. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com ------=_NextPart_000_02EF_01BE84F1.7C22E900 Content-Type: image/gif; name="stogkortII.gif" content-disposition: attachment; filename="stogkortII.gif" content-type: image/gif; name="stogkortII.gif" content-transfer-encoding: base64 [Attachment content not displayed.] ------=_NextPart_000_02EF_01BE84F1.7C22E900-- From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Mon Apr 12 23:01:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9661 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 06:00:32 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 06:00:32 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10WwFK-0004xx-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:00:31 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:59:38 GMT Message-ID: <3713dbd3.713679@p...> References: <030c01be84e2$3c49d6e0$bbc152c3@opus> In-Reply-To: <030c01be84e2$3c49d6e0$bbc152c3@opus> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Copenhagen Rulebook, 1st sketch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very nicely done, Ole - I can see that Black Tokens will become at a = premium on the Compenhagen map - it's a radically different architecture than any = other we've played on. A couple of comments: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:33:51 +0200, you wrote: >This is a rough draft for a Copenhagen Rulebook: > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Rule 2.7.11 - Copenhagen S-train Guidebook (Sorgenfri) > > Mornington Crescent may be played on the S-train net of Copenhagen. > > *A map of the S-train net can be found at: > Do you want this on one of your sites, or on the MN one? > *Station names may include /, / and/or /. > or is æ or Æ in HTML and may be substituted by ae or = AE >in plain text. > or is ø or Ø in HTML and may be substituted by oe = (or >o/) or OE (or O/) in plain text. > or is å or Å in HTML and may be substituted by aa (or >a0) or AA (or A0) in plain text. Very nicely done. > *Due to the fact that there are far fewer Park or Green stations on = the >S-train net, any and all of the standard rules about Parks and Greens >Cascades do not apply. An alternative of a Plant Cascade ("birk", = "elle", >"have", "kvist", "lind", "lund" or "skov") replaces these rules and = applies >instead, being terminated by a move to a "skov" or "have" station. Could I suggest offering a different name for P&G then?=20 I take it, though, that you'd want this including in the next Week's = Proposals. (don't forget to Vote, incidentally) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 12 23:38:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24964 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 06:38:10 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 06:38:10 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA23373; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:38:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma023192; Tue, 13 Apr 99 16:37:39 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:37:38 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428FBE@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:37:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: PaulWay is back on line Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a quick note in case you didn't get my earlier one (egroups?). I'm back and active. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Apr 13 03:28:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26326 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 08:18:59 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 08:18:59 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id EAA20458 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:23:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:21:30 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Copenhagen Rulebook, 1st sketch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Very nicely done, Ole - I can see that Black Tokens will become at a premium on >the Compenhagen map - it's a radically different architecture than any other >we've played on. I've been thinking of doing a ruleset for Baltimore, Maryland. http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDOT/mta/services/balto_met ro_subway.gif What do you think? :) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From palnatoke@g... Tue Apr 13 04:21:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16212 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 11:21:56 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 11:21:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 1154 invoked by uid 505); 13 Apr 1999 11:21:56 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: palnatoke@g... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:21:56 -0000 Subject: MN: Re: Copenhagen Rulebook, 1st sketch Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wrote: > > I've been thinking of doing a ruleset for Baltimore, Maryland. > > http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDOT/mta/services/balto_met > ro_subway.gif > > > What do you think? :) > That would be quite different, to say the least. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Apr 13 04:51:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29334 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 11:50:55 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 11:50:55 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03865 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:50:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24479 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:50:37 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id MAA03481; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:50:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904131150.MAA03481@u...> Date: 13 Apr 99 12:47:16 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States 13/4/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's probably time for another one of these, what with PaulWay having woken up again and Ole having joined our merry band. Game states as of 12:45 BST 13/4/99 are as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times BST) ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long PaulWay 12-April-1999 13:51 [1] 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 12-April-1999 13:43 15 MN-R Rutts Kevan 13-March-1999 12:42 16 MN-B Chateau PaulWay 13-April-1999 10:22 [1] 17 MN-C Flag Ole 13-April-1999 11:14 [1] PaulWay having just Activated. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Apr 13 15:10:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3325 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 22:10:54 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 22:10:54 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10XBOP-000MSu-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:10:53 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:10:00 GMT Message-ID: <3717b783.6144883@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 1 - Voting Results for Year 2, Week 47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 661 Recycle that rubbish! 6 - - 3 Passes 662 Randomness Regulated 2 1 3 3 Fails 663 Proposal Revue 5 1 - 3 Passes 664 Blonk Cheque 5 1 - 3 Passes 665 Knerdling 5 1 - 3 Passes 666 Vermicious Knids 4 1 1 3 Passes 667 Mad Hatters Tea Party 4 1 1 3 Passes 668 Pocket Fluff 5 1 - 3 Passes 669 Dropped Packets 5 1 - 3 Passes 670 Farkle Off 4 1 1 3 Passes 671 Vote Race 5 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 661 (PaulWay) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - - FOR = =46OR 662 (PaulWay) - AGA AGA - FOR AGA - - PAS = =46OR 663 (PaulWay) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - - PAS = =46OR 664 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - - FOR = =46OR 665 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - - FOR = =46OR 666 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS AGA - - FOR = =46OR 667 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - - AGA = =46OR 668 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - - FOR = =46OR 669 (Kevan - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - - FOR = =46OR 670 (Kevan) - FOR PAS - FOR PAS - - AGA = =46OR 671 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - - FOR = =46OR -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 17 1 0 8 30 16 0 23 = 0 Halved: 8 0 15 0 11 = 0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +10 +0 +17 +13 +0 +13 = +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 I -2 -1 I -0 -3 = -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +0 n +3 +3 n +0 +3 = +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 +0 a -0 -3 = -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: t +1 +0 t +0 +0 t +0 +0 = +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i -0 -0 = -0 Finger/Pulse: v +5 +0 v +0 +0 v +0 +0 = +0 e e e Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +0 +4 +0 +3 = +3 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +22 +0 +18 +19 0 +13 = +6 Final Kudos: 11 30 0 0 26 34 16 0 24 = 6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+2/FOR) - Jonathan (Vermicious Knids) IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - none CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - PaulWay (Proposal Revue) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - Kevan (Farkle Off) Clever Bear Award (+3) - RiffRaff (the winning Moves in Game = 12) For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Apr 13 15:11:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3297 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 22:10:53 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 22:10:53 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10XBOG-000MSu-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:10:45 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:09:51 GMT Message-ID: <3718c073.8433443@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week One -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 672 - 50Hz Notch Filter [Multiple] Remove all mention of the Drone in the Ruleset. Specifically, * Remove the last two bullet points in the list in Rule 1.1.2, and change the sentence "When a game has at least three Players (including the = Drone), ..." to read "When a game has at least two Players, ..." * Remove the Drone's entry in the sample GSD of Rule 1.2.0 * Remove the Drone Stick posession in the sample Luggage of rule 1.4.12 * Remove the Action [Claiming Drone Stick] from Rule 1.7.2 * Remove the sentence "The Drone may not perform this Action" in Rule = 1.7.27 * Change the sentence in Rule 1.11.2 that reads "If neither Pick-Up nor Destination Station is defined, any Player (except the Drone) may perform ..." to read "If neither Pick-Up nor Destination Station is defined, any Player may perform ..." * Remove Section 1.15 entirely (repealing Rules 1.15.1 and 1.15.2) * Change the sentence in Rule 2.6.1 that reads "A Team Game may only commence if each Team has an equal number of Players and if there are at least five Players in the Game (including the Drone)." to read "A Team = Game may only commence if each Team has an equal number of Players and if = there are at least four Players in the Game." * Repeal Rule 2.6.3. {The Drone hasn't been used in the last, oh, six or so games, and it = seems to be now almost totally moribund (especially now that the rules are = getting larger and more complex). Sorry, but it's dead wood.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 673 - Contracrostipunctus II [Amendment] Rewrite Rule 1.5.0 to read: There are three ways for a Player's Piece Move to be Valid: 1) If the Move is either the word "Pass" or the word "Timeout", then this is known as a Passed Move. The Move is Valid and the Piece stays at its current Station. 2) If the Move uses one of the following Actions (only one of these = allowed per Turn): * Home (Rule 1.12.1) * Wild (Rule 1.11.1) * Marmalade Sandwiches (Rule 1.4.16) * Striling (Rule 1.7.12) * Stubbery (Rule 1.7.33) * Walking (Rule 1.7.10) In this case, the Move is known as a Special Move. The Move is Valid, = and the Piece is moved directly to the specified Station without passing through any other Stations. 3) Otherwise, the Move is known as a Standard Move. All Stations in the Map currently under play (by default, the Map defined in Rule 1.17.1) are Valid. The Player must then check through all the Rules and checks in = the following list to determine if any one of them makes the Move Invalid. Once the Move is Invalid, it cannot be revalidated by another Rule. Actions of other Players may move a Piece before or after its owner's = Turn without that Piece in turn being required to comply to these checks. In other words, these checks are only applied to a Piece during the Piece's owner's Turn. 1. LV Checks * If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current Piece Location is not precisely the same as that Player's LV, the Move becomes Invalid. 2. Trivial Fares * Line Changing (Rule 1.5.11) 3. Blocks, Impediments and Gaps * Blocks (Rule 1.9.1) * Damaged Stations (Rule 1.11.3) * The Podume of Infinite Darkness (Rule 1.4.24) * Closed Lines and Stations (Rule 1.13.4) * Other Players' Home Stations (Rule 1.12.3) * Power Failures (Rule 1.7.8) * Maelberg Variances (Rule 1.7.17) * Gapminding (Rule 1.7.7) * Bridges (Rule 1.8.3) * Circle Line Polarisation (Rule 1.8.5) * Construction Lines (Rule 1.5.10) * Heathrow Traversal (Rule 1.5.7) 4. Loops and Cascades * Dollis Hill Loop (Rule 1.8.1) * Parks and Greens Cascade (Rule 1.8.2) * Charge Spiral (Rule 1.19.5) 5. First Turn * If this is the Player's first Turn in the Game, eir Home Station is a Valid Move and all other Stations are Invalid. 6. Unused Actions * If the Actioning Player performed a pre-Move Action to make a particular type of Move Valid, and did not play such a Move, eir Move becomes Invalid. Stations "passed through" during a Move are all of those along the route which the Player's Piece has taken, excepting the Station it started and ended the Move at. {Added in the clause about only having to apply these checks during the Piece's Owner's turn. This, as far as I can see, fixes Dunx' main = concern, and also plugs an inconsistency in the ruleset that was unstated but = could have been challenged.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 674 - Like A Broken Pencil [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.1.9 (What Do Points Mean?) such that its second paragraph = reads thus: Whenever a Player Wins a Game of Mornington Crescent, e gains one = Point for every other Player in that Game when it finishes (other than Team- mates) who had more Points than em, and also gains two bonus Points. { Comment: this just makes explicit the way the Speaker is running the Points system at the moment. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 675 - Loopus Loopus [Multiple] { Comment: there are a couple of terminological inexactitudes in the loop references - most references to DH loops should now be to the more = general loop construct, apart from where DH is specified as being a special = case of same. And so... } [Amendment: Loopus Interruptus] Amend Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves) such that the reference to the Dollis Hill shall be replaced with the following line: * Loop state (Rule 1.8.6) [Amendment: Mini Looper] Amend Rule 1.10.1 (A Shunting We Will Go) such that the third bullet = shall read thus: * The Shunted Player's initial location is not a Loop trap Station. [End of Loopus Loopus] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 676 - Free Range [Enactment] Range Classes define the location of the target or destination of an = Action, relative to the Player performing the Action, at the time the Action is performed. The following list is in the format: Range Class : Range Class Name. Range Class Description. 1a : Isolocation. At the same station, on the same line. 1b : Interstation. At the same interchange, not on the same line. 1c : Costation. At the same named station, not on the same line. 2a : Expectoration. On the same Line Segment, or in a Segment that is reachable without a change in Line Direction, in the same Zone and = Quadrant. 2b : Feline-rotation. On the same Line in the same Zone and Quadrant. 3a : Shuntation. On the same Line Segment, or in a Segment that is reachable without a change in Line Direction. 3b : Observation. In the same Zone and Quadrant. 4a : Echolocation. In the same Quadrant. 4b : Tergiversation. In an adjacent Quadrant. 5a : Misinformation. Not in any of the above Range Classes. Range Classes are compared alphanumerically - 1a is lower than 1b and 2a = is higher than 1c. Each Range Class implicitly includes all the Range = Classes lower than it. Future additions should slot in between the above Range Classes in such a way that this implication is still true. Note that some of the Range Class Names are supposed to be funny. {This is just to get the general idea into the ruleset before we start setting up all the relevant Actions with appropriate Range Classes. I'm also hoping to get people filling in any gaps I haven't thought of. The point is not to include every single possibility (that would be futile) = but to categorise the type of interaction. Note also that this Rule doesn't deal with LV, or moves that require you to be in a certain LV range. = That's another matter entirely.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 677 - No more albums [Multiple] Enact a Rule called "Singularity" with the following text between the = lines: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actions can be Singular, denoted by a separate column "Singular" (or "S" = for neatness) in Rule 1.7.2. By default, Actions are Co-operative - not Singular - so this need not be stated. Only one Singular action can be performed in each Phase of a player's = Turn. This means that one Singular Action (of type Pre-Move or Neutral) can be performed in the Pre-Move Action Phase, and one Singular Action (of type Neutral or Post-Move) can be performed in the Post-Move Action Phase. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alter the following Actions so that they are denoted as Singular (a "Y" = in the "S" column), and, if present, remove any sentence or phrase in the associated Rule to the effect that the Action concerned may only be performed as the first Action of the Post-move Action Phase. [Shadowing ] (Rule 1.7.25) [Shunting ] (Rule 1.7.25) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 678 - We Regret To Announce... [Multiple] { Comment: This is something which has been mentioned before, if only to diss it, = but the concept behind this Proposal is to have a place where we can record long term interruptions in service such as Bulkheads, Pegs, whatever. The objections raised to this idea previously are that it will further bloat the GSD header, but the fact of the matter is that the long term effects have not been used extensively to date and that an = interruptions box like this will not pad the top of the GSD anywhere near as much as = has been feared. This is particularly true when Station Damage is incorporated. In = tweaking Station Damage in this way, I've also taken the opportunity to fix a = couple of bugs in the way it was defined (particularly the repair of heavily damaged stations). } [Enactment: Disrupted Services] Within the GSD, there shall be a box labelled "Disruptions" following the example format below - +- Disruptions = ---------------------------------------------------------+ | = | = +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Any Station, Line Segment, or other component of the Map whose access = is restricted by Player action where that effect does not have a definite duration (eg one Round) shall be recorded in this box along with an indication of the nature of the effect. The sequence of items in the = box shall match the order in which the disruptions occurred. Duplicate items are permitted - since sequence may be significant, any such repetition should be preserved: that is, having the same effect happen twice to the same Station means two entries in the box (unless explicitly banned, of course). Once a Disrupted Map component has had an effect cleared, the corresponding item shall be removed from the box. eg Wembley Park has been Bulkheaded, and Euston has been double = Pegged. +- Disrupted Services = --------------------------------------------------+ | Euston (Peg), Wembley Park (Bulkhead), Euston (Peg) = | = +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ [Amendment: What's the Damage?] Amend Rule 1.11.3 (Station Damage) as follows: Certain events may cause Stations to become Damaged (either Lightly or Heavily). Lightly Damaged Stations are treated as being Closed until London Transport manage to repair them; Heavily Damaged Stations are treated as Blocked until repairs are complete. The following notations shall be applied to Damaged Stations in the Disruptions box: Lightly Damaged - (Damage) Heavily Damaged - (*Damage*) Whenever Game Time moves into a new day, the first Damaged Station = listed in Disruptions shall be removed: * if the Damage was Light, then the effect is cleared * if the Damage was Heavy, then the Station is now considered to be Lightly Damaged and shall be added to Disruptions as if the Damage had just occurred. { Comment: this second point fixes some broken wording in the Station = Damage Rule, where a Heavily Damaged Station is implied to go direct to = entirely clear in one step (which is both counter-intuitive, and counter to the original intent. } [Amendment: Peggy Sioux] Amend Rule 1.11.4 (Peg Leg) by adding the following paragraph to it: A Pegged Station is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix "(Peg)" appended to the Station name. eg Euston (Peg) [Amendment: Peggy Sioux II] Amend Rule 1.7.41 (Pegs Tie) by adding the following paragraph to it: A Pegged Line Segment is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix = "(Peg)" appended to the affected Line Segment, the Line Segment being = described by its end Stations and the affected Line Code. eg Angel to Bank (NT) (Peg) [Amendment: Bulk Buy] Amend Rule 1.7.26 (Bulkheading) by adding the following paragraph to it: A Bulkheaded Station is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix "(Bulkhead)" appended to the Station name. eg Wembley Park (Bulkhead) [Amendment: Maelberg Varied] Amend Rule 1.7.17 (Maelberg Variance) by adding the following paragraph = to it: A Maelberged Station is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix "(Maelberg)" appended to the Station name. eg Paddington (Maelberg) [End of We Regret To Announce...] { Comment: there is scope for including Bridge, Knip, and even Circle = Line state in this, but I thought that would best be left for another time. What I really want to do here is to record something which is easily overlooked at the moment. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] { Comment: Following up on the alternate movement styles discussion from months ago, this is an attempt at chess on the Underground. } [Enactment: Piece Maker] In a Czech Variant Game, a Player has control of the following types of pieces (with their analogue in chess): * Commuter (king) - moves in the same way as a Vanilla Piece. The Commuter is considered to own the LV, Tokens, and other Player possessions. * Driver (rook) - can move with an unlimited LV on its current line, or on a line serving its start position. May only change line at its start station. eg an Inspector at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank = branch of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town = or South of Kennington. an Inspector at Ealing Broadway may move freely to any Station= on the Central or Piccadilly line not requiring a change in line direction. * Inspector (queen) - may move as an Inspector, or may Charge Tunnel without cost in lieu of a Move. eg a Shopper at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank branch of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town = or South of Kennington. It may alternatively Charge Tunnel to = Bank (which would be pointless), Marble Arch or Knightsbridge. * Busker (knight) - moves by straddling as if standing on a three = token stack. * Tourist (pawn) - can move with an LV of 1, or to the first interchange on its current line on its first Move. A Player has one of each type of Piece except for the Tourist, of which e= has four. All Pieces are governed in their movements by Rules about changes in line direction, obstructions on the Line, and so on, where those restrictions apply to the movement form which that Piece uses. Each Turn, a Player may Move a single piece under eir control. Which = piece has been Moved shall be indicated by placing the initial letter of the = piece in brackets after the Player's name. Viz: Cryer (T): Turnham Green (PD) [Enactment: No Overtaking] No two Pieces in a Czech Variant Game may occupy the same Station, nor = may any Piece pass through a Station occupied by another Piece. A corollary to this is that any Actions requiring co-location of Pieces = may not be played. [Enactment: Take On Me] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Taking ] Post ----- 20 -1 Re = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Any Station which may be Moved to by a particular Piece is said to be controlled by that Piece. A Piece occupying a Station which would = otherwise be controlled by an opposing Player's Piece is said to be threatened. A threatened Piece may be removed from the Game if the attacking Piece is Moved to that Station and plays the Post-Move Action of Taking. Thus: Rushton (I): Latimer Road (HC) [Taking Tourist] A Piece which has been Taken is removed from the Map and the Game. [Taking] may not be performed on any Piece owned by the Taking Player, or= on a Commuter. [Enactment: Checks and Balances] A Commuter which is threatened is said to be in check. A Commuter may not be Moved into check. If a Commuter is in check, the owning Player must play a Move which will take the Commuter out of check either by blocking the control of the opposing Piece, or by moving away from any controlled Stations. If a Commuter cannot be taken out of check, then the owning Player is considered to have lost. All that Player's Pieces are removed from the = board and eir name is parenthesised in the Token Table. That Player takes no further part in the Game. If any Player succeeds in removing all other Players from the Game, then that Player is considered to have won just as much as if e had played = Mornington Crescent. [Enactment: Jump Start] Up to four Players may participate in a Czech Variant Game. There are four sets of start positions for Pieces corresponding to the four Compass Quadrants. These start positions are randomly allocated by the Speaker before the Game begins. Each non-Tourist (or major) Piece starts at an outlying Station, usually = a Terminus; the Tourists all start at a Station adjacent to a major Piece. The start positions for each major Piece in each Quadrant are as follows: +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | | NE (1) | SE (2) | SW (3) | NW (4) | |-----------+-----------------------------------------------------------| | Commuter | Epping | Beckton | Heathrow T 4 | Amersham | | Inspector | Upminster | Island Gdns. | Wimbledon | Uxbridge | | Driver | Walthamstow | New Cross | Richmond | Harrow & | | | Central | | | Wealdstone | | Busker | Stratford | Tower Gateway| Kensington | West Ruislip | | | | | Olympia | | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ There are no Home Stations in the Czech Variant. [Enactment: Passed Participal] Only a Commuter may play a Move of Pass. [Enactment: Promotional Material] If a Tourist reaches the Meridian, it may be promoted to any other type = of Piece except a Commuter. { Comment: so - that's chess. Who's for Go? } [End of Czech Variant] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 680 - Not So Fast [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.4.3 (Proposal Submission) to say that only three Proposals = may be submitted for a given Week. { Comment: There were some strenuous objections to the increase - it = seems only fair that these objections be aired. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 681 - Recapture the Flag [Amendment] { A return to the original Capture the Flag variant - the simple and intuitive "capture another Team's Flag and carry it home" approach, rather than the complex and bizarre "take opponents' Flags to = Mornington Crescent to get Gold Tokens, to teleport your Flag and to remove = Players from the game" (with, actually, no restriction upon rejoining the game immediately) which managed to get through a few weeks ago. } Amend Rule 2.8.5 (Winning) to read:- If a Flag of a Team ever rests at the HQ of another Team, all members = of the latter Team immediately Win the Game. No other conditions permit a Player to become the Winner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 682 - Hunt the Ostrich [Special Ruleset] { A Drone-hunting variant struck me as potentially interesting, and this seemed the obvious implementation. I never caught the game on ISIHAC, and only dimly perceived the York games, but I trust this isn't too far off = the mark. } 1. The Ostrich [Enactment] In a Game of Hunt the Ostrich, the Drone is known as the "Ostrich". = Any Rules which refer to the Drone should be considered to refer to the Ostrich. In addition, the Ostrick Stick is Indestructable. To Win, a Player must Pounce the Ostrich. No other conditions permit a Player to become the Winner. 2. Ostrich Actions [Enactment] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Pouncing Ostrich] Neut x.x.x [Giving Stick to ] Neut x.x.x [Run Run Run] Pre x.x.x -1 Bk = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If a Player is at the same Station as the Ostrich, is not carrying the Ostrich Stick and has not given the Ostrich Stick away this Turn, e = may perform the Action of "[Pouncing Ostrich]". When a Player Pounces the Ostrich, e Wins the Game. If a Player is carrying the Ostrich Stick, e may perform the Action "[Giving Stick to ]", where "Player" is any Active Player = other than the Ostrich - the Stick is transferred to that Player's = inventory. The Ostrich may perform the Action of "[Run Run Run]"; upon performing this Action, its LV is increased by 1. 3. Lynch the Ostrich [Enactment] If the "Team Play" Special Ruleset is being used in conjunction with "Hunt the Ostrich", Players may only give the Ostrich Stick to Players on an opposing Team. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 683 - Fraud Squad [Amendment] In Rule 1.14.4 (Token Claiming), add the words "nor for a Token which the Actioning Player placed earlier in the Turn". { The "spending a Token then picking it up because you've passed its = Station earlier" loophole has been there for a while, and becomes - as RiffRaff demonstrates - absurd on Quadrantless Maps such as the Paris Metro. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 684 - Neatly Wrapped [Amendment] Repeal Rule 2.6.7 (What's mine is yours). Rename Rule 2.6.6 (Post-Move Team Actions) to "What's Mine Is Yours" and reword it to:- = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Giving to ] Neut 2.6.6 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Giving to ]" to give a Small Possession they are carrying to another Player on the same Team - upon performing this Action, the nominated Possession is passed from the Actioning Player to the Targeted Player. { Combined into one Rule; such layout seems more reasonable. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 685 - Anti-Dairy Farm [Multiple] { Reproposal of some of the better ideas from a failed Proposal I made back in Week 40, for lack of anything else to submit... } 1. Chalk Farm Denial [Enactment; Chalk Farm Special Ruleset] If any Piece is situated at Chalk Farm, the action of "[Opening MC]" may not be performed. 2. Landing Lite [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.2.3 (Clearance Granted for Landing):- When a Player performs an Action of "[Home: ]", e may claim a Zone Pass for any single Zone which contains that Station. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Apr 13 16:19:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6803 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Apr 1999 23:19:33 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 23:19:33 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA04037 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:24:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:22:02 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 672 - 50Hz Notch Filter [Multiple] > >Remove all mention of the Drone in the Ruleset. Specifically, >{The Drone hasn't been used in the last, oh, six or so games, and it seems >to be now almost totally moribund (especially now that the rules are getting >larger and more complex). Sorry, but it's dead wood.} I *like* the Drone. True, I've only attempted to bring it into play once, and unsuccessfully at that, but it's nice to have the option. >Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] > >{ Comment: Following up on the alternate movement styles discussion from > months ago, this is an attempt at chess on the Underground. } Weird. Interesting. > * Commuter (king) - moves in the same way as a Vanilla Piece. The > Commuter is considered to own the LV, Tokens, and other Player > possessions. > * Driver (rook) - can move with an unlimited LV on its current line, > or on a line serving its start position. May only change line at > its start station. > eg an Inspector at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank branch > of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town or > South of Kennington. > an Inspector at Ealing Broadway may move freely to any Station on > the Central or Piccadilly line not requiring a change in line > direction. > * Inspector (queen) - may move as an Inspector, or may Charge Tunnel > without cost in lieu of a Move. > eg a Shopper at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank branch > of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town or > South of Kennington. It may alternatively Charge Tunnel to Bank > (which would be pointless), Marble Arch or Knightsbridge. These are puzzling. The examples for the Driver explain the Inspector, and the examples for the Inspector refer to a Shopper, which doesn't seem to be referenced anywhere else, including the Starting Stations chart. > >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| | NE (1) | SE (2) | SW (3) | NW (4) | >|-----------+-----------------------------------------------------------| >| Commuter | Epping | Beckton | Heathrow T 4 | Amersham | >| Inspector | Upminster | Island Gdns. | Wimbledon | Uxbridge | >| Driver | Walthamstow | New Cross | Richmond | Harrow & | >| | Central | | | Wealdstone | >| Busker | Stratford | Tower Gateway| Kensington | West Ruislip | >| | | | Olympia | | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > >Proposal 681 - Recapture the Flag [Amendment] > >{ A return to the original Capture the Flag variant - the simple and > intuitive "capture another Team's Flag and carry it home" approach, > rather than the complex and bizarre "take opponents' Flags to Mornington > Crescent to get Gold Tokens, to teleport your Flag and to remove Players > from the game" (with, actually, no restriction upon rejoining the game > immediately) which managed to get through a few weeks ago. } > >Amend Rule 2.8.5 (Winning) to read:- > > If a Flag of a Team ever rests at the HQ of another Team, all members of > the latter Team immediately Win the Game. > > No other conditions permit a Player to become the Winner. This doesn't take into account the fact that more than two teams might be playing. Shouldn't it be something like "If the Flags of all opposing Teams rest at the HQ of one Team..."? >Proposal 683 - Fraud Squad [Amendment] > >In Rule 1.14.4 (Token Claiming), add the words "nor for a Token which the >Actioning Player placed earlier in the Turn". > >{ The "spending a Token then picking it up because you've passed its Station > earlier" loophole has been there for a while, and becomes - as RiffRaff > demonstrates - absurd on Quadrantless Maps such as the Paris Metro. } Heh heh. :) This doesn't solve the fact that you can still put the tokens on Stations you plan to go to next turn, and get them all back anyway. Perhaps we should come up with some Quadrants for Paris... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 14 01:33:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30941 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 08:33:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 08:33:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24157 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:33:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn43 (uksn43.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.18]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA30732 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:33:12 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn43 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA19963; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:33:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199904140833.JAA19963@uksn43> Date: 14 Apr 99 09:25:55 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UNX8.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-261-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 14-Apr-99 01:22 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quick response to RiffRaff's comment - > >Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] I'll put my hand up to this - since I raised the alternate movement styles thing in the first place, this is unlikely to surprise. > >{ Comment: Following up on the alternate movement styles discussion from > > months ago, this is an attempt at chess on the Underground. } > Weird. Interesting. Thankyou. That was the point. > > * Commuter (king) - moves in the same way as a Vanilla Piece. The > > Commuter is considered to own the LV, Tokens, and other Player > > possessions. > > * Driver (rook) - can move with an unlimited LV on its current line, > > or on a line serving its start position. May only change line at > > its start station. > > eg an Inspector at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank branch > > of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town or > > South of Kennington. > > an Inspector at Ealing Broadway may move freely to any Station on > > the Central or Piccadilly line not requiring a change in line= > > direction. > > * Inspector (queen) - may move as an Inspector, or may Charge Tunnel > > without cost in lieu of a Move. > > eg a Shopper at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank branch > > of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town or > > South of Kennington. It may alternatively Charge Tunnel to Bank > > (which would be pointless), Marble Arch or Knightsbridge. > These are puzzling. The examples for the Driver explain the Inspector, and > the examples for the Inspector refer to a Shopper, which doesn't seem to be > referenced anywhere else, including the Starting Stations chart. Careless proof reading. Bum. The story is that there used to be a Shopper piece which was intended to be analogous to a bishop - it would be allowed to move freely on its current line, but not change line at all in the usual way. As an alternative, it would be allowed to Charge Tunnel for free. The queen analogue (which was originally the Driver, Inspector being the old name for the Czech rook) would then combime the movement styles of rook and bishop as is done in chess itself. You may gather that this has been kicking around for a while. When I was figuring out start positions for the Pieces, I realised that there weren't enough Termini in the South East Quadrant particularly to have five starting points. Since the Shopper was the piece I was least happy with, I decided to remove it. Obviously, not very effectively. With the new powers of Rule 0.4.3, I shall submit a corrected set of Movement styles this evening. Apologies for the inconvenience. Comments on other Proposals later. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Wed Apr 14 01:43:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2110 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 08:43:09 -0000 Received: from m7.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.153) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 08:43:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 31840 invoked by uid 505); 14 Apr 1999 08:43:09 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:43:09 -0000 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 672 - 50Hz Notch Filter [Multiple] > > Remove all mention of the Drone in the Ruleset. Specifically, > > {The Drone hasn't been used in the last, oh, six or so games, and it seems > to be now almost totally moribund (especially now that the rules are getting > larger and more complex). Sorry, but it's dead wood.} I, too, happen to like the Drone. I think something only reaches the dead-wood stage when people aren't using it for a good reason - personally, it's only been for coincidentally strategic reasons that I've left the Drone asleep; there have been quite a few times when I've considered and dismissed claiming the Stick. Maybe a Droneless Special Ruleset might be worth putting forward, but in honesty the Drone takes up so little of the GSD when it's sleeping that there's not much harm in keeping it. > Proposal 673 - Contracrostipunctus II [Amendment] Aha. Good things; an impressive step towards making Move Validity more comprehensible. A couple of issues, though - the "cannot be revalidated" aspect makes the "First Turn" stage irrelevant, and there's really no need to have a carefully numbered sequence of Invalidators, if they all have the same effect. > Proposal 676 - Free Range [Enactment] > > Note that some of the Range Class Names are supposed to be funny. I have a feeling I won't be able to remember these, though. I suspect I'd be happier with a Rule saying "You can only Strafe a Player who shares a Quadrant with you" than "You can only Strafe a Player at an Echolocated Station". Having to continually page through the Ruleset to check the meanings of words isn't my idea of a good time. If there were only a couple of Range Classes then it'd be forgivable, but this smacks of needlessly confusing jargon. > Range Classes are compared alphanumerically - 1a is lower than 1b and 2a is > higher than 1c. Each Range Class implicitly includes all the Range Classes > lower than it. Future additions should slot in between the above Range > Classes in such a way that this implication is still true. This bit's quite clever, actually. > Proposal 677 - No more albums [Multiple] Hmm. Maybe a good thing, although I'm not sure we'd have that many Actions that would require it. Shunting and Shadowing obviously need something like this, but I think the current implementation is stronger - it's more intuitive that such Actions can only be played immediately after your Move, and this also makes the game a lot fairer. The proposed replacement is a little broken in that you can Move, Clamp and then Shunt, for example. > Proposal 678 - We Regret To Announce... [Multiple] Bravo. A very good idea. > Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] Very strange and intriguing. I fear it might be something of a nightmare to visualise, but I'd be keen to have a go at it once the careless wordings had been ironed out. > Proposal 680 - Not So Fast [Amendment] Five Proposals seems a good number, to me - it's nice to have a good load of things to mull over, and gives less exciting amendments a chance to be put forward. If Dunx is happy Speakering such a quantity, I'm fine with it as it is. >>Proposal 681 - Recapture the Flag [Amendment] > >This doesn't take into account the fact that more than two teams might be >playing. Shouldn't it be something like "If the Flags of all opposing >Teams rest at the HQ of one Team..."? Not really - I think it'd become too tortuous and rambling if you had to collect more than one Flag to win; while you were off getting your second one, you'd have to guard the first one, and everything. Getting one enemy Flag and taking it Home should be challenge enough. Happy new year, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 14 05:15:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16985 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 12:15:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 12:15:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p104-41.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.192.233]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA11303 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:15:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000801be8670$51e9f9a0$e9c052c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:37:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Copenhagen Rulebook, 2nd sketch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a less rough draft for a Copenhagen Rulebook: (Changes from 1st sketch marked ! in the margin.) -------------------------------------------------------- Rule 2.7.13(?) - Copenhagen S-train Guidebook (Sorgenfri) Mornington Crescent may be played on the S-train net of Copenhagen. *A map of the S-train net can be found at: ! *Goal: Sorgenfri *Bank: Nordhavn *Loop: Fuglebakken *Circle Line Equivalent: formed by two lines, Lines C and M between Hellerup and Vanløse (not counting the part of Line M east of Vanløse and the ends of Line C.) *River: There is no river. *Line Codes: The letter of the Line (Line A's line code is A, for instance.) Lille Nord (between Hillerød and Helsingør) is LN. *Station names may include æ/Æ, ø/Ø and/or å/Å. æ or Æ is æ or Æ in HTML and may be substituted by ae or AE in plain text. ø or Ø is ø or Ø in HTML and may be substituted by oe (or o/) or OE (or O/) in plain text. å or Å is å or Å in HTML and may be substituted by aa (or a0) or AA (or A0) in plain text. *Station classifications are as on the London Underground, but translated into Danish. The following categories of Station exist: * A to Z - An A to Z Station is one with the string "vej", "gade" or "parken" in its Name. Dybbølsbro is an A to Z Station, too. * DSB - A DSB Station is one that has a connection to DSB. Those are: Køge, Høje Taastrup, Glostrup, Valby, København H, Nørreport, Østerport, Hellerup, Klampenborg, Hillerød, Helsingør * Compass - A Compass Station is one with the string "nord", "nørre", "syd", "øst" or "vest" in its Name. * Green - A Green Station is one with the string "grøn" in its Name. * High - A High Station is one with the string "høje" in its Name. * Hill - A Hill Station is one with the string "bakke" or "bjerg" in its Name. Ishøj is a Hill Station, too. * Holy - A Holy Station is one with the string "bisp" or "sjæl" in its name. * Co-Situated - A Co-Situated Station is one which has more than one Line serving it at the same map location, but which is not a Terminus. * Park - A Park Station is one with the string "park" in its Name. * Plant - A Plant Station is one with the string "birk", "elle", "have", "kvist", "lind", "lund" or "skov" in its name. * Populated - A Populated Station is one with the string "by", "borg" or "gård" in its name. * Terminus - A Terminus Station is a Station that has at least one Line emerging from it in only one direction. Each such Line is said to terminate at that Station. * Verdant - A Verdant Station is one with the string "park", "grøn" or "have" in its name. *Since Interchange Stations have not been defined, all Termini count as Interchanges. ! *There is a Plant Cascade, but no Parks and Greens Cascades. The Plant Cascade ("birk", "elle", "have", "kvist", "lind", "lund" or "skov") replaces these rules and applies instead, being terminated by a move to a "skov" or "have" station. *Zone Passes are issued for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or All Zones. The price of a Zone Pass is one Bronze Token less than the number of zones covered. An All Zones Pass costs 10 Bronze Tokens. *There are four Quadrants. Bispebjerg is the Meridian. Svanemøllen and Malmparken are north of Bispebjerg, Skovlunde and Nordhavn are south of Bispebjerg. Emdrup is straight north of Bispebjerg, Solbjerg is straight south of Bispebjerg. Langgade, Hvidovre and Friheden are west of Bispebjerg, Hillerød, Valby and Åmarken are east of Bispebjerg. *Lines with Restricted Opening Lines with + are open Mon-Fri 0600-1800, Sat 0900-1400 (Line E between Hellerup and Hillerød is effectively a + line) Lines with x have these Opening Times (Mon-Fri): Bx 0630-0800 (Høje Taastrup-København H), 1530-1700 (København H-Høje Taastr up) Ex 0630-0800 and 1530-1700 (both directions) The night break is 0030-0500 on all lines (0030-0600 night between Sat and Sun) ! *There are two additional Possessions: ! Bike, 12 Br ! City Bike, 2 Br ! A Piece carrying a Bike may perform the Action [Riding the Bike to ]. ! This Action is equivalent to the [Walking to ] Action, except ! can be any Station in the same or a neighbouring Zone. ! City Bikes can be purchased at any Station between Dybbølsbro and Nordhavn, both inclusive. ! A City Bikes can placed in a City Bike Rack by means of the [City Bike in Rack] Action. ! This Action earns the Player 2 Br, and can only be performed at one of those Stations. ! A City Bike carried to any other Station must be dropped there at the beginning of the carrying ! Player's next Turn. ! The following Line Segments (and directions) are Closed to Pieces carrying Bikes: ! København H to Østerport (all Lines, both directions) Mon-Fri 0700-0830 and 1530-1700. ! Solbjerg to Hellerup (both Lines, both directions) Mon-Fri 0700-0830 and 1530-1700. ! All Lines North of Østerport (away from Østerport) Mon-Fri 1530-1700. ! All Lines North of Østerport (towards Østerport) Mon-Fri 0700-0830. ! Line F North of Hellerup (away from Hellerup) Mon-Fri 1530-1700. ! Line F North of Hellerup (towards Hellerup) Mon-Fri 0700-0830. ! All Lines South of København H (away from København H) Mon-Fri 1530-1700. ! All Lines South of København H (towards København H) Mon-Fri 0700-0830. ! The following Manoeuvers and Gambits are known: ! The Trellis Roundhouse Manouevre (1 Go, 1 Si, 1 Br) ! Quadrant 1 -> Quadrant 2 -> Quadrant 3 -> Quadrant 4 ! The Mount of Olives Gambit (6 Bu) ! Holy Station -> Hill Station -> Populated Station ! The Queen's Castles Gambit (3 Bk, 2 Gr, 1 Br) ! Østerport -> Hillerød -> Fredensborg ! The Beach Boys Manoeuvre (1 Bk, 2 Re) ! Solrød Strand -> Brøndby Strand -> Klampenborg ! The Splendid Past Manoeuver (2 Si, 1 Gr, 3 Re) ! Helsingør -> Vesterport -> Frederikssund -------------------------------------------------- Comments, anyone? I have considered using a larger map. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 14 06:30:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23835 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 13:29:57 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 13:29:57 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18048 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:29:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04331 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:03:33 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id OAA23489; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:03:33 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904141303.OAA23489@u...> Date: 14 Apr 99 14:01:12 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-260-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 13-Apr-99 23:09 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first batch of Proposals for the new Year included: > Proposal 672 - 50Hz Notch Filter [Multiple] I confess I'm not bothered either way - disuse seems like a reasonable argument against, but then there's the Ostrich Hunt Proposal later on which is a powerful argument in the Drone's favour... > Proposal 673 - Contracrostipunctus II [Amendment] Much clearer wording. Thinking about it, I'm still not convinced though - as= far as I can see, insufficient LV will still prevent a Move to Dollis Hill. Still. I'll point at the bits I like as well rather than just picking holes.= > There are three ways for a Player's Piece Move to be Valid: Good. I think this split is useful - the circumstances for each Move type are different and need discrete handling (I know this is original to the first Contracrostipunctus, but I didn't say anything then). > 2) If the Move uses one of the following Actions (only one of these allowed > per Turn): > * Home (Rule 1.12.1) > * Wild (Rule 1.11.1) > * Marmalade Sandwiches (Rule 1.4.16) > * Striling (Rule 1.7.12) > * Stubbery (Rule 1.7.33) > * Walking (Rule 1.7.10) > In this case, the Move is known as a Special Move. The Move is Valid, and= > the Piece is moved directly to the specified Station without passing > through any other Stations. Fair enough - I think that encapsulates (or at least obviates) the wording that's just been added by Prop 666's passage. > 3) Otherwise, the Move is known as a Standard Move. All Stations in the > Map currently under play (by default, the Map defined in Rule 1.17.1) are > Valid. The Player must then check through all the Rules and checks in the= > following list to determine if any one of them makes the Move Invalid. Fine. > Once the Move is Invalid, it cannot be revalidated by another Rule. Not at all sure that this is fine. Given the order of the points, I think that this effectively kills loops. > Actions of other Players may move a Piece before or after its owner's Turn > without that Piece in turn being required to comply to these checks. In > other words, these checks are only applied to a Piece during the Piece's > owner's Turn. A fine point. > 1. LV Checks > * If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current > Piece Location is not precisely the same as that Player's LV, the Move > becomes Invalid. Right - so Kevan has just played Dollis Hill, and RiffRaff is at Beckton. There is no way under the current Rules that RiffRaff's Piece could have sufficient LV to Move normally to Dollis Hill. In other words, the Move to Dollis Hill required by the loop Rule is Invalid. Assuming that RiffRaff does not have the requisite Silver Token to play a Sidestep, e must Pass. Since e has passed at Beckton, the loop is broken. Since the loop condition in section 5 below is after the LV checks, and given that "Once the Move is Invalid, it cannot be revalidated by another Rule", the Move to Dollis Hill remains Invalid. I reckon the easiest solution to this (both in implementation and comprehensibility) is to concede that loop moves are not in any way standard - give loops their own top level section in Rule 1.5.0, so that if a loop is in force there is a special case to define the behaviour. > 4. Loops and Cascades > * Dollis Hill Loop (Rule 1.8.1) > * Parks and Greens Cascade (Rule 1.8.2) > * Charge Spiral (Rule 1.19.5) Should this Proposal Pass, I'd like to raise Point of Order to ensure that EP 32 be applied to this version of section 4. > {Added in the clause about only having to apply these checks during the > Piece's Owner's turn. This, as far as I can see, fixes Dunx' main concern, > and also plugs an inconsistency in the ruleset that was unstated but could= > have been challenged.} It's a good fix, but I don't think I've expressed concern in that direction?= > Proposal 676 - Free Range [Enactment] Excuse me, I'll just get my tweezers... > 1a : Isolocation. At the same station, on the same line. > 1b : Interstation. At the same interchange, not on the same line. Fine. A useful distinction. > 1c : Costation. At the same named station, not on the same line. This needs a 'in the same map location' clause, because otherwise Turnham Green and Shepherd's Bush get complicated. > 2a : Expectoration. On the same Line Segment, or in a Segment that is > reachable without a change in Line Direction, in the same Zone and Quadrant. > 2b : Feline-rotation. On the same Line in the same Zone and Quadrant. > 3a : Shuntation. On the same Line Segment, or in a Segment that is > reachable without a change in Line Direction. > 3b : Observation. In the same Zone and Quadrant. > 4a : Echolocation. In the same Quadrant. > 4b : Tergiversation. In an adjacent Quadrant. > 5a : Misinformation. Not in any of the above Range Classes. Some amusing names, but I'm not convinced that making them amusing is going to make them a great deal easier to remember (although I do like 5a!). It's fairly obvious that these Range Classes are an enumeration of the combinations of different relative location classes - the problem is in trying to remember the names for all of these combinations. It would undoubtedly be a bit duller, but perhaps easier to follow, if relative location classes were defined using some kind of simple code, and the Range Codes were defined as a combination of location codes. A relative location might be constructed as a prefix letter (S for station, Q for quadrant) and a proximity suffix character: '=3D' identical - applies to any. For Station =3D> same station, same li= ne '~' adjacent - applies to any: Station =3D> same interchange, different line Line =3D> same Line, but different Line Segment Quadrant =3D> adjacent Quadrant Zone =3D> adjacent Zone '@' close - applies to Station only =3D> same Co-Located Station, different line '!' different - applies to any (implied by omission of Prefix) Relative Location prefixes might be: S Station L Line Segment (ie section of same Line reachable without a change in Line Direction) Q Quadrant Z Zone Exclusions and obvious deductions: - any S-code other than '!' implies Q=3D and Z=3D - S=3D =3D> L=3D - S~ or S@ =3D> L! So to use these codes in combination to define your Range Classes: S=3D Isolocation. At the same station, on the same line. S~ Interstation. At the same interchange, not on the same line. S@ Costation. At the same [Co-Located] station, not on the same line. L=3DQ=3DZ=3D Expectoration. On the same Line Segment, or in a Segment = that is reachable without a change in Line Direction, in the same Zone and Quadrant. L~Q=3DZ=3D Feline-rotation. On the same Line in the same Zone and Quadrant. L=3D Shuntation. On the same Line Segment, or in a Segment that is= reachable without a change in Line Direction. Z=3DQ=3D Observation. In the same Zone and Quadrant. Q=3D Echolocation. In the same Quadrant. Q~ Tergiversation. In an adjacent Quadrant. S!L!Z!Q! Misinformation. Not in any of the above Range Classes. I confess I don't know how one might compare these, but divining their meaning is simpler I think. > Proposal 677 - No more albums [Multiple] I think this is a good idea - granted that we only have any Singuler Actions= in the Post-Move phase, but we've got several of those: Shunt, Shadow and Blonk. This seems like a useful definition to simplify adding more. > Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] Well, I've already held up my hands on this one. Corrected version this evening, as I said before. > Proposal 680 - Not So Fast [Amendment] Kevan said: :Five Proposals seems a good number, to me - it's nice to have a good load of :things to mull over, and gives less exciting amendments a chance to be put = :forward. If Dunx is happy Speakering such a quantity, I'm fine with it as it :is. Oh, I'm happy enough - this Proposal proves your point, I believe. My feeling is also that with a larger Proposal limit, individual Proposals can be more focussed. Not that we've had many kitchen sink Proposals, but there have been cases where some good ideas have been voted down because they were= grouped inappropriately. > Proposal 682 - Hunt the Ostrich [Special Ruleset] Like I say, sufficient reason to keep the Drone in itself. Absolutely splendid. > { A Drone-hunting variant struck me as potentially interesting, and this > seemed the obvious implementation. I never caught the game on ISIHAC, and > only dimly perceived the York games, but I trust this isn't too far off the > mark. } As it happens, the ISIHAC version was only played once AFAICR and made a few= vague mentions of knee pads. The York, Delphi and Pants games have been invented from whole cloth, but it's quite high quality cloth and worth replicating. > Proposal 683 - Fraud Squad [Amendment] > In Rule 1.14.4 (Token Claiming), add the words "nor for a Token which the > Actioning Player placed earlier in the Turn". > { The "spending a Token then picking it up because you've passed its Station > earlier" loophole has been there for a while, and becomes - as RiffRaff > demonstrates - absurd on Quadrantless Maps such as the Paris Metro. } RiffRaff cackled and then wrote: :This doesn't solve the fact that you can still put the tokens on Stations :you plan to go to next turn, and get them all back anyway. No, and it's practically impossible to do so. But then, if you're prepared to go to those length I reckon you deserve your moment in the sun. :Perhaps we :should come up with some Quadrants for Paris... Possibly, but a better bet might be to use a proximity rule - spent Tokens cannot be placed within ten Stations of the Piece's final location, perhaps.= At least offers a challenge. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Apr 14 07:17:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19389 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 14:17:16 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 14:17:16 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA14318 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:21:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:19:44 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >:This doesn't solve the fact that you can still put the tokens on Stations >:you plan to go to next turn, and get them all back anyway. > >No, and it's practically impossible to do so. But then, if you're prepared >to go to those length I reckon you deserve your moment in the sun. I was thinking specifically of the Paris game. Under this proposal, I wouldn't have been able to reclaim that black token at the end of my turn, but I could pick it up at the start of the next turn, which would make no real difference. >:Perhaps we >:should come up with some Quadrants for Paris... > >Possibly, but a better bet might be to use a proximity rule - spent Tokens >cannot be placed within ten Stations of the Piece's final location, perhaps. >At least offers a challenge. Hm, sounds good. I like it. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Wed Apr 14 07:19:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20867 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 14:19:42 -0000 Received: from m6.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.152) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 14:19:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 4404 invoked by uid 505); 14 Apr 1999 14:19:42 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:19:42 -0000 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >No, and it's practically impossible to do so. But then, if you're prepared > >to go to those length I reckon you deserve your moment in the sun. > > I was thinking specifically of the Paris game. Under this proposal, I > wouldn't have been able to reclaim that black token at the end of my turn, > but I could pick it up at the start of the next turn, which would make no > real difference. It makes a little bit of difference; everyone else gets a Turn before you can pick it back up, so if you're near to any other Players, it becomes possibly useless, and potentially unhelpful. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Wed Apr 14 08:24:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27927 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 15:24:39 -0000 Received: from m6.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.152) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 15:24:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 16592 invoked by uid 505); 14 Apr 1999 15:24:37 -0000 In-Reply-To: <199904141303.OAA23489@u...> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:24:37 -0000 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Proposal 673 - Contracrostipunctus II [Amendment] > > Much clearer wording. Thinking about it, I'm still not convinced though - as > far as I can see, insufficient LV will still prevent a Move to Dollis Hill. I thought this, but the new rules for Looping mean that your piece is Moved directly to the relevant Station, outside of your normal Move. (Making things quite messy when Rule 1.2.0 demands a Valid Move for the GSD.) > Assuming that RiffRaff does not have the requisite Silver Token to play a > Sidestep, e must Pass. Since e has passed at Beckton, the loop is broken. Actually, a Loop isn't broken until someone Escapes it, these days. Mrm. I didn't notice that aspect of it when I read the Proposal originally. > I reckon the easiest solution to this (both in implementation and > comprehensibility) is to concede that loop moves are not in any way standard > - > give loops their own top level section in Rule 1.5.0, so that if a loop is > in > force there is a special case to define the behaviour. Indeed, yes. > > Proposal 677 - No more albums [Multiple] > > This seems like a useful definition to simplify adding more. [Home], [Wild] and the rest, I suppose... You could be ingenious and include [LV+X] and [LV-X] as well, actually, since most of the Special Moves (quite rightly) disallow LV changes. And you can't perform both LV shifts in the same Turn anyway. Hmm. > > Proposal 680 - Not So Fast [Amendment] > > My feeling is also that with a larger Proposal limit, individual Proposals > can be more focussed. A very good point, actually, yes... Back to work, Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 14 10:38:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9190 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 17:37:58 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 17:37:58 -0000 Received: from modem-24.zinc.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.14.152] helo=franz-liszt) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10XTbk-0006K2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:37:53 +0100 Message-ID: <006c01be869e$2ab65620$980e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:36:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Proposal 672 - 50Hz Notch Filter [Multiple] >> >> Remove all mention of the Drone in the Ruleset. Specifically, >> >> {The Drone hasn't been used in the last, oh, six or so games, and it seems >> to be now almost totally moribund (especially now that the rules are getting >> larger and more complex). Sorry, but it's dead wood.} > >I, too, happen to like the Drone. I think something only reaches the dead-wood stage when people aren't using it for a good reason - personally, it's only been for coincidentally strategic reasons that I've left the Drone asleep; there have been quite a few times when I've considered and dismissed claiming the Stick. I found the Drone useful in the game I won: if I'd declared West Finchley as Wild myself, other people might have noticed what I was up to and tried to Block it or, worse still, name three Wild Stations in quick succession and put it off the list. Getting the Drone to do the calling just before I moved instead was an integral part of my strategy. >> Proposal 673 - Contracrostipunctus II [Amendment] > >Aha. Good things; an impressive step towards making Move Validity more comprehensible. Good. Clears up some of the slightly less well worded versions left before (though the effect doesn't change that much, just the wording.) >> Proposal 677 - No more albums [Multiple] >Hmm. Maybe a good thing, although I'm not sure we'd have that many Actions that would require it. Shunting and Shadowing obviously need something like this, but I think the current implementation is stronger - it's more intuitive that such Actions can only be played immediately after your Move, and this also makes the game a lot fairer. The proposed replacement is a little broken in that you can Move, Clamp and then Shunt, for example. I agree here. At the moment one can't Clamp and Shunt because the Shunt must be played first, leaving the Player no longer there to be Clamped... with this dismissed by the wayside, nastiness becomes too powerful. (Though maybe it could get into the Rutts ruleset...) >> Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] > >Very strange and intriguing. I fear it might be something of a nightmare to visualise, but I'd be keen to have a go at it once the careless wordings had been ironed out. Wow. As a chess enthusiast myself, I'd vote for this one. >> Proposal 680 - Not So Fast [Amendment] > >Five Proposals seems a good number, to me - it's nice to have a good load of things to mull over, and gives less exciting amendments a chance to be put forward. If Dunx is happy Speakering such a quantity, I'm fine with it as it is. I myself still prefer a slightly more static ruleset with things not changing radically every week or two. On the other hand, I suppose I can live with five. >>>Proposal 681 - Recapture the Flag [Amendment] >> >>This doesn't take into account the fact that more than two teams might be >>playing. Shouldn't it be something like "If the Flags of all opposing >>Teams rest at the HQ of one Team..."? > >Not really - I think it'd become too tortuous and rambling if you had to collect more than one Flag to win; while you were off getting your second one, you'd have to guard the first one, and everything. Getting one enemy Flag and taking it Home should be challenge enough. Not if you make some compromise with the current ruleset: rather than "the first team to place an enemy Flag on their Home Station is the winner", we could say "any Flag placed on the Home Station of an opposing Team is removed from the game, along with the Team that it belongs to and all that Team's Possessions: none of the Players of that Team may rejoin the Game at a later stage. When only one Team is left, it is declared the Winners." This allows for more than two teams to play while still retaining the fact that you can't lose the game unless your own flag is captured. I still have a gripe against the complete lack of reference to MC itself in the winning conditions of a game which purports to be an MC variant: so I shall be proposing, next week, to designate it as an "Other Game" in a renumbering of the Ruleset, splitting the Special Rulesets into (1) Section 2: Special MC Rulesets (eg Chalk Farm, Rutts, Finsbury, Long), (2) Section 3: MC on other networks (there are enough of these to merit a full Section to itself), and (3) Section 4: Other Games (those which are played on the Underground with some MN-related moves, but reaching MC is not the goal: for instance Capture the Flag and Dunx's Chess-related variant.) In these, there should be no "Opening MC" action and cost, and MC remains open at its normal opening hours. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 14 15:36:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26692 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 22:35:39 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 22:35:39 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA14217; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:35:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma014180; Thu, 15 Apr 99 08:35:20 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:35:20 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428FC2@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:35:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I might as well answer the queries on my own Proposals... On Wednesday, 14 April 1999 23:01, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > > Proposal 672 - 50Hz Notch Filter [Multiple] > > I confess I'm not bothered either way - disuse seems like a reasonable > argument against, but then there's the Ostrich Hunt Proposal later on > which is a powerful argument in the Drone's favour... Well, seeing the opinion is overwhelmingly negative I'd like to withdraw that proposal. Unfortunately, according to 0.4.3 I can't due to my stupidly not considering a withdrawal of a proposal as a legitimate thing to do. I'd like to raise an emergency proposal that a withdrawal be counted as an update for the purposes of 0.4.3. Or, more specifically, Emergency Proposal - Help! They don't like my idea! (Amendment) Add the following paragraph to Rule 0.4.3: At any time a Player may request that the Speaker withdraw a Proposal the Player has submitted. The Proposal is then considered never to have been submitted and any Votes cast in relation to it are discarded. The Speaker must then notify the Discussion Lounge that the Player in question has withdrawn said Proposal. > > Once the Move is Invalid, it cannot be revalidated by another Rule. > > Not at all sure that this is fine. Given the order of the points, I think > that this effectively kills loops. You're right. I think the best way to handle this is, as Dunx suggested, to make Loops another special case in 1.5.0, so, to wit, I'd like to request an update to this Proposal to be the section between the double lines hereafter: ========================================= Rewrite Rule 1.5.0 to read: There are four ways for a Player's Piece Move to be Valid: 1) If the Move is either the word "Pass" or the word "Timeout", then this is known as a Passed Move. The Move is Valid and the Piece stays at its current Station. 2) If the Move uses one of the following Actions (only one of these allowed per Turn): * Home (Rule 1.12.1) * Wild (Rule 1.11.1) * Marmalade Sandwiches (Rule 1.4.16) * Striling (Rule 1.7.12) * Stubbery (Rule 1.7.33) * Walking (Rule 1.7.10) In this case, the Move is known as a Special Move. The Move is Valid, and the Piece is moved directly to the specified Station without passing through any other Stations. 3) If the Game is in a Loop State according to Rule 1.8.6, then the Move is Valid if it obeys the conditions of the Loop as set out in Rule 1.8.6 and the relevant Rule or Rules specifying the details of the Loop. This is known as a Looping Move. 4) Otherwise, the Move is known as a Standard Move. All Stations in the Map currently under play (by default, the Map defined in Rule 1.17.1) are Valid. The Player must then check through all the Rules and checks in the following list to determine if any one of them makes the Move Invalid. {Removing the can't-revalidate clause that's sticking in people's throats.} Actions of other Players may move a Piece before or after its owner's Turn without that Piece in turn being required to comply to these checks. In other words, these checks are only applied to a Piece during the Piece's owner's Turn. 1. LV Checks * If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current Piece Location is not precisely the same as that Player's LV, the Move becomes Invalid. 2. Trivial Fares * Line Changing (Rule 1.5.11) 3. Blocks, Impediments and Gaps * Blocks (Rule 1.9.1) * Damaged Stations (Rule 1.11.3) * The Podume of Infinite Darkness (Rule 1.4.24) * Closed Lines and Stations (Rule 1.13.4) * Other Players' Home Stations (Rule 1.12.3) * Power Failures (Rule 1.7.8) * Maelberg Variances (Rule 1.7.17) * Gapminding (Rule 1.7.7) * Bridges (Rule 1.8.3) * Circle Line Polarisation (Rule 1.8.5) * Construction Lines (Rule 1.5.10) * Heathrow Traversal (Rule 1.5.7) 4. Non-Loop Progressions * Parks and Greens Cascade (Rule 1.8.2) * Charge Spiral (Rule 1.19.5) 5. First Turn * If this is the Player's first Turn in the Game, eir Home Station is a Valid Move and all other Stations are Invalid. 6. Unused Actions * If the Actioning Player performed a pre-Move Action to make a particular type of Move Valid, and did not play such a Move, eir Move becomes Invalid. Stations "passed through" during a Move are all of those along the route which the Player's Piece has taken, excepting the Station it started and ended the Move at. ========================================= > Should this Proposal Pass, I'd like to raise Point of Order to ensure > that EP 32 be applied to this version of section 4. Hopefully that won't be necessary due to the above revisions. BTW, I'd like to congratulate the Speaker on the excellence and comprehensiveness of the web pages - I found the relevant EP easily and simply through the archives, even though the EP was passed while I was off the lists. > It's a good fix, but I don't think I've expressed concern in that direction? Oh well, I remembered that someone muttered about that. It might have been a different conversation about something unrelated. > > 1c : Costation. At the same named station, not on the same line. > This needs a 'in the same map location' clause, because otherwise Turnham > Green and Shepherd's Bush get complicated. I thought of this, but I considered them a rare enough case (and that Range Class 1c would be specified rarely enough) that this was more a minor misfeature rather than an actual bug. > Some amusing names, but I'm not convinced that making them amusing is > going to make them a great deal easier to remember (although I do like 5a!). Kevan commented on this as well - I'd intended that people would use the Range Classes rather than the Range Class Names when specifying them in the Rules. Range Class Names were initially me trying to find a single word definition; as that got impractical it just became a bit of fun. > It would undoubtedly be a bit duller, but perhaps easier to follow, if > relative location classes were defined using some kind of simple code, > and the Range Codes were defined as a combination of location codes. This, and what Dunx describes, is a nice idea. I'd encourage him to propose it whether this passes or not. > > Proposal 677 - No more albums [Multiple] > I think this is a good idea - granted that we only have any Singuler > Actions in the Post-Move phase, but we've got several of those: > Shunt, Shadow and Blonk. My excuse was that I was going through an old ruleset. You could also include LV adjustment and Homes/Wilds/etc. as Singular moves. I was, once again, giving a simple framework that could be used in the future. > My feeling is also that with a larger Proposal limit, individual Proposals > can be more focussed. Not that we've had many kitchen sink Proposals, > but there have been cases where some good ideas have been voted down > because they were grouped inappropriately. I agree. While there's always a danger with proposals that rely on other proposals in the same week, I think this will encourage people to do more individual fixes rather than lumping ideas inappropriately. Mind you, my practice recently has been to send off proposals as I feel like it, and if they wait an extra week or two then this isn't a problem (especially with the update-proposals-in-progress rules now.) > No, and it's practically impossible to do so. But then, if you're prepared to go to those length I reckon you deserve your moment in the sun. I also think that spreading tokens ahead of you is a good clue to other players as to what you're up to. They still have a turn to foil your plans if they can... > :Perhaps we should come up with some Quadrants for Paris... If there's a way to digitise maps (Kevan? Did you get my mail?) then I think there's a way to make a program to produce arbitrary zonings for any map. This would be very useful, as I think not having Zones and Quadrants is a serious hinderance to non-LU maps. Have fun, anyway, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Apr 14 15:52:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2705 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Apr 1999 22:51:59 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 22:51:59 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10XYVh-0002mn-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:51:58 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:51:01 GMT Message-ID: <37151b0f.1482000@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Updated Proposal - Czech Variant Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable { Speaker's Comment: this Proposal is still to be Voted on in Week One, = since six days remain in the Week. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 679 - Czech Variant [Special Ruleset] { Comment: An updated version of the Czech Variant, fixing the dubious proofreading in Piece Maker (as spotted by RiffRaff) but also = addressing some rather ambiguous starting positions for Tourists in Jump Start. } [Enactment: Piece Maker] In a Czech Variant Game, a Player has control of the following types of pieces (with their analogue in chess): * Commuter (king) - moves in the same way as a Vanilla Piece. The Commuter is considered to own the LV, Tokens, and other Player possessions. * Driver (rook) - can move with an unlimited LV on its current line, or on a line serving its start position. May only change line at its start station. eg a Driver at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank branch of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town = or South of Kennington. a Driver at Ealing Broadway may move freely to any Station on the Central or Piccadilly line not requiring a change in line direction. * Inspector (queen) - may move as a Driver, or may Charge Tunnel without cost in lieu of a Move. eg an Inspector at Angel may Move to any Station on the Bank = branch of the Northern Line, or to any Station North of Camden Town = or South of Kennington. It may alternatively Charge Tunnel to = Bank (which would be pointless), Marble Arch or Knightsbridge. * Busker (knight) - moves by straddling as if standing on a three = token stack. * Tourist (pawn) - can move with an LV of 1, or to the first interchange on its current line on its first Move. A Player has one of each type of Piece except for the Tourist, of which e= has four. All Pieces are governed in their movements by Rules about changes in line direction, obstructions on the Line, and so on, where those restrictions apply to the movement form which that Piece uses. Each Turn, a Player may Move a single piece under eir control. Which = piece has been Moved shall be indicated by placing the initial letter of the = piece in brackets after the Player's name. Viz: Cryer (T): Turnham Green (PD) [Enactment: No Overtaking] No two Pieces in a Czech Variant Game may occupy the same Station, nor = may any Piece pass through a Station occupied by another Piece. A corollary to this is that any Actions requiring co-location of Pieces = may not be played. [Enactment: Take On Me] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Taking ] Post ----- 20 -1 Re = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Any Station which may be Moved to by a particular Piece is said to be controlled by that Piece. A Piece occupying a Station which would = otherwise be controlled by an opposing Player's Piece is said to be threatened. A threatened Piece may be removed from the Game if the attacking Piece is Moved to that Station and plays the Post-Move Action of Taking. Thus: Rushton (I): Latimer Road (HC) [Taking Tourist] A Piece which has been Taken is removed from the Map and the Game. [Taking] may not be performed on any Piece owned by the Taking Player, or= on a Commuter. [Enactment: Checks and Balances] A Commuter which is threatened is said to be in check. A Commuter may not be Moved into check. If a Commuter is in check, the owning Player must play a Move which will take the Commuter out of check either by blocking the control of the opposing Piece, or by moving away from any controlled Stations. If a Commuter cannot be taken out of check, then the owning Player is considered to have lost. All that Player's Pieces are removed from the = board and eir name is parenthesised in the Token Table. That Player takes no further part in the Game. If any Player succeeds in removing all other Players from the Game, then = that Player is considered to have won just as much as if e had played = Mornington Crescent. [Enactment: Jump Start] Up to four Players may participate in a Czech Variant Game. There are four sets of start positions for Pieces corresponding to the four Compass Quadrants. These start positions are randomly allocated by the Speaker before the Game begins. Each non-Tourist (or major) Piece starts at an outlying Station, usually = a Terminus; the Tourists all start at a Station adjacent to a major Piece (specified below where this is not obvious). The start positions for each major Piece in each Quadrant are as defined = in the table following; non-obvious Tourist locations are given in brackets: +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | | NE (1) | SE (2) | SW (3) | NW (4) | |-----------+-----------------------------------------------------------| | Commuter | Epping | Beckton | Heathrow T 4 | Amersham | | | | |(Heath. T 123)| | | Inspector | Upminster | Island Gdns. | Wimbledon | Uxbridge | | Driver | Walthamstow | New Cross | Richmond | Harrow & | | | Central | | | Wealdstone | | Busker | Stratford | Tower Gateway| Kensington | West Ruislip | | |(Pud. Mill La)| (Shadwell) | Olympia | | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ There are no Home Stations in the Czech Variant. [Enactment: Passed Participal] Only a Commuter may play a Move of Pass. [Enactment: Promotional Material] If a Tourist reaches the Meridian, it may be promoted to any other type = of Piece except a Commuter. { Comment: so - that's chess. Who's for Go? } [End of Czech Variant] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 15 00:37:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21830 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Apr 1999 07:37:43 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 07:37:43 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10XgiU-000PqF-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:37:42 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:36:44 GMT Message-ID: <371594c2.2509197@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 033 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Emergency Proposal 033 - Help! They don't like my idea! [Amendment] Add the following paragraph to Rule 0.4.3: At any time a Player may request that the Speaker withdraw a Proposal the Player has submitted. The Proposal is then considered never to have been submitted and any Votes cast in relation to it are discarded. The = Speaker must then notify the Discussion Lounge that the Player in question has withdrawn said Proposal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Raised by PaulWay, 14/4/99 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 15 00:37:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21842 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Apr 1999 07:37:45 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 07:37:45 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10XgiV-000PqF-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:37:44 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:36:46 GMT Message-ID: <371694ef.2554570@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Updated Proposal - Contracrostipunctus II Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable { Speaker's Comment: this Proposal is still to be Voted on in Week One, = since five days remain in the Week. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 673 - Contracrostipunctus II [Amendment] Rewrite Rule 1.5.0 to read: There are four ways for a Player's Piece Move to be Valid: 1) If the Move is either the word "Pass" or the word "Timeout", then this is known as a Passed Move. The Move is Valid and the Piece stays at its current Station. 2) If the Move uses one of the following Actions (only one of these = allowed per Turn): * Home (Rule 1.12.1) * Wild (Rule 1.11.1) * Marmalade Sandwiches (Rule 1.4.16) * Striling (Rule 1.7.12) * Stubbery (Rule 1.7.33) * Walking (Rule 1.7.10) In this case, the Move is known as a Special Move. The Move is Valid, = and the Piece is moved directly to the specified Station without passing through any other Stations. 3) If the Game is in a Loop State according to Rule 1.8.6, then the Move = is Valid if it obeys the conditions of the Loop as set out in Rule 1.8.6 and the relevant Rule or Rules specifying the details of the Loop. This is known as a Looping Move. 4) Otherwise, the Move is known as a Standard Move. All Stations in the Map currently under play (by default, the Map defined in Rule 1.17.1) are Valid. The Player must then check through all the Rules and checks in = the following list to determine if any one of them makes the Move Invalid. {Removing the can't-revalidate clause that's sticking in people's = throats.} Actions of other Players may move a Piece before or after its owner's = Turn without that Piece in turn being required to comply to these checks. In other words, these checks are only applied to a Piece during the Piece's owner's Turn. 1. LV Checks * If the distance between the target Station and the Player's current Piece Location is not precisely the same as that Player's LV, the Move becomes Invalid. 2. Trivial Fares * Line Changing (Rule 1.5.11) 3. Blocks, Impediments and Gaps * Blocks (Rule 1.9.1) * Damaged Stations (Rule 1.11.3) * The Podume of Infinite Darkness (Rule 1.4.24) * Closed Lines and Stations (Rule 1.13.4) * Other Players' Home Stations (Rule 1.12.3) * Power Failures (Rule 1.7.8) * Maelberg Variances (Rule 1.7.17) * Gapminding (Rule 1.7.7) * Bridges (Rule 1.8.3) * Circle Line Polarisation (Rule 1.8.5) * Construction Lines (Rule 1.5.10) * Heathrow Traversal (Rule 1.5.7) 4. Non-Loop Progressions * Parks and Greens Cascade (Rule 1.8.2) * Charge Spiral (Rule 1.19.5) 5. First Turn * If this is the Player's first Turn in the Game, eir Home Station is a Valid Move and all other Stations are Invalid. 6. Unused Actions * If the Actioning Player performed a pre-Move Action to make a particular type of Move Valid, and did not play such a Move, eir Move becomes Invalid. Stations "passed through" during a Move are all of those along the route which the Player's Piece has taken, excepting the Station it started and ended the Move at. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 15 00:43:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23624 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Apr 1999 07:43:05 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 07:43:05 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Xgng-000Lwd-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:43:04 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:42:06 GMT Message-ID: <371797e1.3308392@p...> References: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428FC2@PIBCRMEXH001> In-Reply-To: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428FC2@PIBCRMEXH001> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 1 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PaulWay wrote in fulsome praise: >BTW, I'd like to congratulate the Speaker on the excellence and >comprehensiveness of the web pages - I found the relevant EP easily and >simply through the archives, even though the EP was passed while I was = off >the lists. Kevan must take the majority of the credit here - I've merely continued = his excellent work. The thought is appreciated though. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Fri Apr 16 14:49:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26354 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Apr 1999 21:49:02 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1999 21:49:02 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10YGTu-000HbW-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:49:02 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:47:58 GMT Message-ID: <3717aff1.429993@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 033 Passes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Emergency Proposal 033 - Help! They don't like my idea! [Amendment] Add the following paragraph to Rule 0.4.3: At any time a Player may request that the Speaker withdraw a Proposal the Player has submitted. The Proposal is then considered never to have been submitted and any Votes cast in relation to it are discarded. The = Speaker must then notify the Discussion Lounge that the Player in question has withdrawn said Proposal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Raised by PaulWay, 14/4/99 Jonathan, RiffRaff and Dunx voted FOR Keven voted AGAINST It passed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Fri Apr 16 14:51:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27662 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Apr 1999 21:51:30 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1999 21:51:29 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10YGWH-0004YH-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:51:29 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:50:28 GMT Message-ID: <3718b022.479059@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Proposal 672 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46ollowing the passage of EP 33, and PaulWay's sentiments in that = direction, I am treating Proposal 672 (50Hz Notch Filter) as having been withdrawn. Objections to the usual address. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Mon Apr 19 07:59:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4741 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Apr 1999 14:58:50 -0000 Received: from m6.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.152) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 14:58:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 11202 invoked by uid 505); 19 Apr 1999 14:50:11 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:50:05 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Greenish Paper Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I'll chuck this one out a day early as a "Green Paper"; criticise it as much as you can and I'll submit it for Proposal tomorrow. It basically tries to simplify the Move Validity thing, by firmly introducing the partially-included concept of a "Special Move". It seems to work alarmingly neatly, with no need to touch any of the existing Invalid-makers, unless I've misread something; etched up in the cigarette breaks of a non-smoker, I'll admit it's a little rushed. Kevan -- Proposal - A Special Need [Multiple] 1. The Soul of Wit [Amendment] Move the last paragraph of Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves) to Rule 1.5.1 (Keep the Piece), and reword Rule 1.5.0 to:- "The following Moves are possible in the Game of Mornington Crescent: * The name of any Station on the Map * The word "Pass" * The word "Timeout" All Moves are Valid by default, unless a Rule or combination of Rules declares them to be Invalid. Certain events permit Players to make Special Moves to a given destination - these Moves do not pass through Stations, but may still be made Invalid. In addition, a Player's LV is reduced to zero after making a Special Move. When a Rule says that something 'permits a Special Move', this means that it permits the current Player to make a Special Move during the current Turn." 2. Getting There [Enactment, as 1.6.2] When you make a Move to a Station, that Station must be at a distance of 'x' Stations, where 'x' is your Line Velocity - if it is closer or further, you cannot get there at that speed, and such a Move is Invalid. If you are making a Special Move, however, an incorrect Line Velocity will not make your Move Invalid. 3. Golly [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.16 (Playing with Food), replace the Marmalade Sandwich's special effect with:- When a Player performs the Action "[Eating Marmalade Sandwich]", a Special Move to Paddington is permitted. 4. Right of Way [Amendment] Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) to:- A Player may perform the pre-Move Action of "[Walking]" to permit a Special Move to any Station within Walking Distance. 5. Strile, Friend, Strile [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.12 (Basic Striles) to:- If a Player's Line Velocity is six or more, e may perform a Strile via the pre-Move Action of "[Striling]"; this permits em to make a Special Move to any Strilable Station. A Station is said to be Strilable if it has a Token Stack, and if that Token Stack is identical to the Stack at the Player's current Piece location. 6. Stubthumper [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.33 (Stubbery) to:- If a Player owns the Ticket Stub for the Station eir Piece is situated at, e may perform the pre-Move Action "[Stub Link]" - this permits em to make a Special Move to any other Station which e has a Ticket Stub for. 7. Of Borneo [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.11.1 (Born to be Wild) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Wild]" to permit a Special Move to any Wild Station. 8. Paintball's Going Home [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.12.4 (Going Home) to:- A Player may performs the pre-Move Action of "[Home]" or "[Home: ]"; both of these permit a Special Move to eir Home Station. 9. Mustn't... Repeal... [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.2.1 (Terminal Velocity) to:- If, at the start of eir Turn before any other Player Actions a Player has an LV of 10 or more, and e does not (and is not forced to by any other Rule) reduce it below 10 before eir Move, e may make a Special Move to any Terminus which e shares a Line with, provided that reaching it would not involve a change of Line Direction (this option is in addition to the standard Moves available through eir natural LV-dependent Piece Movement and any Special Moves available). 10. Just Drop Me At The End Of The Road [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.3.2 (Home Isn't Where The Start Is)) to:- When a Player performs the "[Home:]" Action, it permits a Special Move to any Station which shares a Quadrant and Line with that Player's Home Station. { MC exception no longer required, since you can't Special Move to a Closed Station. } 11. Whose Line Is It Anyway? [Amendment] In Rule 1.5.11 (Changing Line), replace "A Piece Move that involves a change of Line" with "A non-Special Move that involves a change of Line". 12. Loose Ends [Amendments] To the start of Rules 1.8.1 and 1.8.6, add the paragraph "This Rule is closed for repair - the following paragraphs should be treated as if they do not appear in the ruleset. This paragraph will remove itself from the Ruleset at the end of Week Four, at which point Kevan will lose ten Kudos." { I'd rather just close off the Loops rather than attempt to bring them in Line, and having the Proposal fail for doing it in an unpopular way; I'll be proposing fixes either for this Week or next. There's a bit of a stick there to encourage me to get around to it. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 19 08:56:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7423 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Apr 1999 15:56:50 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 15:56:50 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08994 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:56:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn43 (uksn43.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.18]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA31977 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:56:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn43 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA28599; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:56:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199904191556.QAA28599@uksn43> Date: 19 Apr 99 16:50:05 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UNX8.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-277-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 19-Apr-99 15:50 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Greenish Paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, it does seem rather neat. I think the only really troubling thing for me after a quick scan is this line: > In > addition, a Player's LV is reduced to zero after making a Special Move. I agree that this is usually the case, but not always - in particular there's nothing in the existing Striling Rule which says that LV is zeroed during a Strile. What's needed is a statement to be added by this Proposal to the Striling Rule that LV is *not* zeroed after a Strile. I am less concerned about the Loop stuff - obviously it would have an immediate effect on the Game 15 loop should this Pass before that loop comes= to an end, but I don't mind that so much. Having said that: are the existing loop rules so hard to accommodate? I would have thought an additional exemption in "Getting There" excluding the loops from LV considerations would do the job. I'm not saying that this would fix the loops adequately in the long term, but it would preserve the status quo whilst maintaining clarity. Good stuff, though. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 19 13:05:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4699 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Apr 1999 20:05:04 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 20:05:04 -0000 Received: from opus (p103-09.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.192.137]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA24830 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:05:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01e901be8a9f$cf7a8960$6bc252c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:03:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Charge Spiral Props Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have looked at: "Rule 1.19.5 - Charge Spiral Any Player may perform the neutral Action "[Charge Spiral]" to put a Charge Spiral into effect. A Charge Spiral remains in effect until a Piece rests as Tottenham Court Road at the end of any Turn. When a Charge Spiral is in effect, any Move which does not involve a decrease in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal." I have thought about two changes: 1) "Rule 1.19.5 - Charge Spiral Any Player may perform the neutral Action "[Charge Spiral Inwards" or "[Charge Spiral Outwards" to put a Charge Spiral into effect. When a Charge Spiral Inwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve a decrease in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Inwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at Tottenham Court Road at the end of any Turn. When a Charge Spiral Outwardsis in effect, any Move which does not involve an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at Amersham at the end of any Turn." 2) Change "does not involve a decrease" in 1.19.5 to "involves an increase". If Charge Spiral Outwards is defined, change "does not involve an increase" in 1.19.5 to "involves a decrease". Thougths, anyone? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 19 15:22:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13647 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Apr 1999 22:06:24 -0000 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 22:06:24 -0000 Received: from modem-226.name45.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.182.226] helo=franz-liszt) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZMBK-0005aQ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:06:23 +0100 Message-ID: <017001be8ab1$a19cb9c0$e2b6883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:11:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Greenish Paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mostly in favour, but the language needs tidying up IMHO - too many occurrences of "you" which should refer instead to "the Player". Also, the general stipulation that all Special Moves reduce LV to zero afterwards should be removed, and placed instead in those Special Moves which currently demand this (which is to say, Home, Wild and Walking. Striling and Marmalade Sandwiches do not currently reduce LV to zero and IMHO they shouldn't, and personally I'd vote for allowing Stub Links to also escape that restriction as well.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 19 15:28:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18929 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Apr 1999 22:16:05 -0000 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 22:16:05 -0000 Received: from modem-226.name45.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.182.226] helo=franz-liszt) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZMKh-0003JS-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:16:04 +0100 Message-ID: <017901be8ab2$fc043ae0$e2b6883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:21:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Charge Spiral Props Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have looked at: > >"Rule 1.19.5 - Charge Spiral > > Any Player may perform the neutral Action "[Charge Spiral]" to put a > Charge Spiral into effect. A Charge Spiral remains in effect until a >Piece > rests as Tottenham Court Road at the end of any Turn. > > When a Charge Spiral is in effect, any Move which does not involve a > decrease in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal." > >I have thought about two changes: Great idea, but not quite the idea I had in mind... what about someone whose charge is already negative being forced to decrease it? I'd suggest a different change in the current rule, to "the move is Invalid if it brings the Charge of the Player further away from zero" and declare Charge Spirals to be ended when one Player obtains a Charge of exactly zero, rather than being dependent on a Station. This would leave, in effect, a double Spiral, with low-charge players spiralling outwards and high-charge players spiralling inwards - and interacting in the middle... (Remember, Special Moves do not affect charge, so a person who couldn't increase charge owing to being too far out could Wild to the centre and start spiralling outwards again, and vice versa.) That being said, Ole's idea is also a fine one. I like it. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 19 16:20:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21179 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Apr 1999 23:20:48 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 23:20:48 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA06718; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:20:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma006552; Tue, 20 Apr 99 09:20:29 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:20:29 +1000 Message-ID: <32C1DEF30B54D211A3DE00A0C9D34584428FD5@PIBCRMEXH001> From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:20:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Subject: MN: Re: Greenish Paper Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, 20 April 1999 0:50, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > I think I'll chuck this one out a day early as a "Green Paper"; > criticise it as much as you can and I'll submit it for Proposal > tomorrow. It basically tries to simplify the Move Validity thing, by > firmly introducing the partially-included concept of a "Special Move". > It seems to work alarmingly neatly, with no need to touch any of the > existing Invalid-makers, unless I've misread something; etched up in > the cigarette breaks of a non-smoker, I'll admit it's a little rushed. I like it, but I also like the structure of 1.5.0 that Contracrostipunctus II suggests. What I think is important in what you've done here is reword the Special Moves rules to state that they do a Special Move (rather than just sort of assume that and have 1.5.0 imply it). But I'll see what other people think. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Mon Apr 19 20:49:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30438 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Apr 1999 03:30:54 -0000 Received: from mb04.swip.net (193.12.122.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 03:30:54 -0000 Received: from opus (p102-42.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.192.106]) by mb04.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA13860 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 05:30:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008101be8ade$17ac6760$6ac052c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 05:17:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Charge Spiral Props Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan Ellis wrote: :I'd suggest a different change in the current rule, to "the move is :Invalid if it brings the Charge of the Player further away from zero" :and declare Charge Spirals to be ended when one Player obtains a Charge :of exactly zero, rather than being dependent on a Station. This would :leave, in effect, a double Spiral, with low-charge players spiralling :outwards and high-charge players spiralling inwards - and interacting in :the middle... That could be implemented by defining a [Charge Spiral Double] or somesuch... Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Tue Apr 20 03:26:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30596 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Apr 1999 10:26:56 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 10:26:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 30412 invoked by uid 505); 20 Apr 1999 10:26:56 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:26:56 -0000 In-Reply-To: <01e901be8a9f$cf7a8960$6bc252c3@opus> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Charge Spiral Props Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When a Charge Spiral Outwardsis in effect, any Move which does not involve > an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral > Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at Amersham at the end of any > Turn." A nice alternative, and probably more strategically useful than an inward Spiral. Only having Amersham as the terminator seems a problem, though - if Players are leaning towards other corners of the Map, it will be difficult (and possibly impossible) to find a route to Amersham that doesn't involve decreasing Charge. Stating a few more Termini should suffice, I think. > 2) > Change "does not involve a decrease" in 1.19.5 to "involves an increase". > If Charge Spiral Outwards is defined, change "does not involve an increase" > in 1.19.5 to "involves a decrease". Largely academic, really - since you can always pass, this only touches upon moving to Stations which happen to have the same Current. The only effect I can imagine would be that Spirals would go on for longer, with Players looping quietly around Tottenham Court Road, unwilling to terminate the thing. Probably a bad idea. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Tue Apr 20 03:33:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 88 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Apr 1999 10:33:01 -0000 Received: from m6.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.152) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 10:33:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 29472 invoked by uid 505); 20 Apr 1999 10:33:01 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:33:01 -0000 In-Reply-To: <017901be8ab2$fc043ae0$e2b6883e@f...> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Charge Spiral Props Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (Remember, Special Moves do not affect charge, Er, I thought they did? I forget how and when we sorted it out once and for all, but Rule 1.19.2 (Charge) says that it's modified by "any Piece movement that takes place during a Player's Movement Phase", which would include Special Moves. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Tue Apr 20 03:34:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 607 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Apr 1999 10:34:24 -0000 Received: from m6.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.152) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 10:34:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 29537 invoked by uid 505); 20 Apr 1999 10:34:24 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:34:23 -0000 In-Reply-To: <017001be8ab1$a19cb9c0$e2b6883e@f...> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Greenish Paper Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mostly in favour, but the language needs tidying up IMHO - too many > occurrences of "you" which should refer instead to "the Player". Only in the LV bit, which I'd originally written as an expansion to the current LV rule, already slightly chatty. I was writing it in a "friendly" manner, explaining a basic premise to a new Player, but I suppose it should be consistent with the main ruleset at the same time. Ironic, really; I was scything through help documentation at work yesterday, wincing at the patronising tone of the "your"s and replacing them with "the"s. > Also, > the general stipulation that all Special Moves reduce LV to zero > afterwards should be removed, and placed instead in those Special Moves > which currently demand this (which is to say, Home, Wild and Walking. > Striling and Marmalade Sandwiches do not currently reduce LV to zero and > IMHO they shouldn't, and personally I'd vote for allowing Stub Links to > also escape that restriction as well.) I just saw this as a good opportunity to bring things in line - if your LV is killed (for presumably good reasons) when you Wild, why isn't it killed when you perform a pseudo-Wild such as Marmalading or Striling? I forget the reasons for Wild being an LV-zeroer, really. I suppose it's too powerful if you can keep your LV of fifteen and cheerily dash about the board causing mayhem; it also gives something of a drawback to the benefit of being able to pick a destination - you remain a bit of a sitting duck, rather than being able to slip away immediately. All fairly arguable stuff, but I think that if it applies to Wilding and Homing, it should be consistent and also go for Striling, Stubbing and the rest. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Apr 20 15:23:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1335 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Apr 1999 22:23:13 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 22:23:13 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZivA-000PDf-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:23:12 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:22:01 GMT Message-ID: <371df6e7.4484472@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 2 - Voting Results for Week 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 672 50Hz Notch Filter -- withdrawn -- 673 Contracrostipunctus II 4 - - 3 Passes 674 Like A Broken Pencil 3 1 - 3 Passes 675 Loopus Loopus 3 1 - 3 Passes 676 Free Range 3 - 1 3 Passes 677 No More Albums 3 - 1 3 Passes 678 We Regret To Announce... 3 1 - 3 Passes 679 Czech Variant 3 1 - 3 Passes 680 Not So Fast 1 - 3 3 Fails 681 Recapture the Flag 3 - 1 3 Passes 682 Hunt the Ostrich 3 1 - 3 Passes 683 Fraud Squad 3 1 - 3 Passes 684 Neatly Wrapped 3 1 - 3 Passes 685 Anti-Dairy Farm 3 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 672 (PaulWay -- withdrawn -- 673 (PaulWay) - FOR - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 674 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 675 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 676 (PaulWay) - FOR - - FOR AGA - FOR - = -=20 677 (PaulWay) - FOR - - AGA FOR - FOR - = -=20 678 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 679 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 680 (Dunx) - AGA - - FOR AGA - AGA - = -=20 681 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR FOR - AGA - = -=20 682 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 683 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 684 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 685 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 30 0 0 26 34 16 0 24 = 6 Halved: 15 0 13 17 0 12 = 3 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +13 +0 +0 +15 0 +10 = +0 AGA Votes: I -3 -0 I -0 -1 I 0 -2 = -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +0 n +3 +3 n +3 +0 = +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 -3 a 0 -0 = -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 +0 t 0 +3 = +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i 0 -1 = -0 Finger/Pulse: v +5 +0 v +0 +0 v 0 +0 = +0 e e e Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +0 +7 0 +6 = +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +21 +0 +0 +3 +21 +3 +16 = +0 Final Kudos: 11 36 0 0 16 38 16 3 28 = 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [*] Ruttsborough Award - PaulWay (Free Range): +3 IMCS Clarity Award - PaulWay (Contracrostipunctus II): +3 CAMREC Cleanup Award - Kevan (Neatly Wrapped): +3 Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan (Hunt the Ostrich): +4 Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic): +3 Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Apr 20 15:23:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1416 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Apr 1999 22:23:20 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 22:23:20 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZivB-000PDf-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:23:15 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:22:03 GMT Message-ID: <371ef760.4604832@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Two -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 686 - Special Rulesets Renumbering [Multiple] - Add the following text to rule 0.2.10: "Special Rulesets are divided into three types: (1) Variants, (2) MC on non-Underground networks and (3) Other Games to be played on an MC board." - The current contents of Part 2 of the Ruleset ("Special Rulesets") are to undergo an extensive renumbering, being divided into - Part 2 "Variants" Part 3 "Turin '57: MC on other transport networks" Part 4 "Other Games". - Each Part of the Ruleset is to have a single defining Section, numbered "0.0", "1.0", "2.0", "3.0" and "4.0" respectively, defining what is common to all of the entries in that Section: the actual special rulesets contained within should begin their numbering at 2.1.1, 3.1.1 and 4.1.1 etc. {Comment: giving the number of 0 so it goes before all other rulings on the subject.} Any future additional Special Rulesets are to be appended on the end of the correct part of the Ruleset: for instance the "Czech Variant" chess-type one and the "Spot the Ostrich" game, if their Proposals pass, should be added to Part 4. And Ole's Copenhagen variant, should it ever be passed and introduced, should be added to the end of Part 3 in the next Section there. The amendments and renumberings run as follows: *Part 0, Section 0.0: Nomic Mechanics. *Rule 0.0.0: Moving the Goalposts This part of the Ruleset details how Proposals may be made to affect the Ruleset itself, and related issues. *Part 1, Section 1.0: Mornington Crescent. *Rule 1.0.0: Mornington Crescent. This is the "Standard" or "Vanilla" Ruleset for Mornington Nomic. It is the basic ruleset for the game, and the basis for all other Variants and Special Rulesets. *Ruleset Part 2, Section 2.0: Variants. *Rule 2.0.0: Definition of Normality - Each Variant defines the differences between it and the Standard MN Ruleset. All Rules of the Standard Ruleset are assumed to apply unless declared otherwise. {Comment: Renumbered from 2.1.1, slight rewording.} Then the Variants start in the following order: Section 2.1 - The Long Game. {Comment: giving it its rightful place at the top of the list of variants.} (Renumbered from Section 2.5, otherwise unchanged.) Section 2.2 - Chalk Farm '84. Section 2.3 - Finsbury Option. Section 2.4 - Ruttsborough '58. Section 2.5 - Spherical Projection. (Renumbered from 2.12) Section 2.6 - Team Play. Section 2.7 - Tournament Play. (Renumbered from 2.9) Section 2.8 - San Francisco 1849. (Renumbered from 2.10) Section 2.9 - Paranomasia. (Renumbered from 2.11) All the other Special Rulesets are to be moved to the new Parts 3 and 4 of the Ruleset, and in some cases reworded. In the case of those which were formerly included in Section 2.7, extensive rewording is to take place as the Section is expanded into a collection of several Sections each split into Rules, *Ruleset Part 3, Section 3.0: "Mornington Crescent on other transport networks". *Rule 3.0.0 - Turin '57 Convention Mornington Crescent may be played on other transport networks than the London Underground. Each "Turin '57" network must be defined in the following way: (a) The transport network to be used. (b) The Internet URL of a map of that network. (c) All substitute map entities, Game States and special rules for that particular network. In the case of (c) above, the following must be defined: (1) Goal - the victory station, equivalent to Mornington Crescent. (2) Loop - a permanent Loop Trap station, equivalent to Dollis Hill. (3) Bank - an equivalent to Bank station on the Underground. In the above three cases, any rules from the Vanilla Ruleset which apply to these stations apply to the given alternatives instead. (4) Lines, and Line Codes for all the Lines. *Rule 3.0.1: Line and Station changes. The following may also be defined, should a suitable equivalent exist on the map of the alternative network: (1) A Circle Line equivalent: any fully closed loop which is made by lines on the map. If none is defined, Rules 1.8.5 (Circle Line States) and Rule 1.7.4 (Open the Cutlery Drawer, Mrs Higgins) are ignored, and any Actions and Possessions defined therein do not exist in this ruleset, and any rules relating to "Quadrant 0" are ignored. If a Circle Line equivalent is defined, the area inside is taken to be Quadrant 0, and the area outside may or may not be divided into further Quadrants: see (4) below. {Comment: Quadrant 0 depends on the Circle Line rather than the Meridian, so I've decided to keep this in the Special Rulesets.} (2) A river, equivalent to the River Thames: if there is no river or other body of water on the Map which is crossed by any of the Lines, then Rule 1.8.3 (Bridges) is ignored, as is rule 2.2.2 (You Can't Swim) in the event of a Chalk Farm '84 game being played on the network (should sufficient features of the network be defined to permit this.) {Comment: Again, a little addition which would be necessary if CF84 was ever played in a riverless game.} (3) A Meridian (which may or may not be a Station.) If this exists, Quadrants are superimposed on the Map in the same way as they are on the London Underground (with the exception of rules about Quadrant 0, which relate to the Circle Line.) If there is no Meridian at all, then all Rules relating to Charge are ignored, and no Quadrants exist in the Game (with the exception of Quadrant 0 inside the Circle Line equivalent, if that is defined: the area outside this is considered to be Quadrant 1 for the purpose of placing used Tokens.) If there is a Meridian which is not a Station, or if there is no Meridian at all, then an alternative Station must be defined as a Station where Narg Clamps may be removed: otherwise, any and all Rules about Narg do not exist in the Game. {Comment: otherwise Narg is impossible to get rid of. Also, keeping the idea of Quadrant 0 as a Circle-defined thing and allowing the placement of used Tokens on the board - as yet undefined in Quadrantless games.} (4) Station Categories. Equivalents must be supplied, if available, for all categories of Station named in Rule 1.17.6. This may be a simple translation (e.g "Nord" =3D "North" on a French map) or a substitute category. Terminus, Interchange and Co-Situated stations are obvious enough on the map. Certain features of the Vanilla Ruleset which depend on Station categories do not exist in the game if an equivalent to that Station category cannot be defined. - If no Holy Station exists in the game, then Rules 1.4.24 (The Podume of Infinite Darkness), 1.7.29 (Collection Plate) and 1.11.5 (Sanctuary) are ignored, and any Actions and Possessions defined therein do not exist. If there are no Holy Stations (as defined by the Vanilla Ruleset or by a simple translation of the words which make a Station Holy), no equivalent may be specified. {Comment: It doesn't make sense claiming Sanctuary at a Terminus just because no Stations are Holy under the technical definition...} - If it is not possible to find an equivalent for all five types of station at which Hats may be purchased (A-Z, British Rail, Compass, Terminus, Verdant) and no substitute category can be used, then Hats and any Rules and Actions relating to them do not exist in the game, apart from Silly Hats (and Hard Hats, should any Construction Lines be present.) {Comment: otherwise there is no point in Hats, if you can't cash in all five.} - "British Rail" shall be considered to be replaced by the local inter-urban transport network. If there are no connections between the nominated map and the local inter-urban network, then another station category must be found to house the Emporium (Rule 1.4.18), allow the player to remove Velocity Bombs (Rule 1.7.43) and purchase an equivalent to the BR Hat (if Hats exist): and Rule 1.7.9 is ignored. - If there are not a sufficient number of Park, Green and other Plant Stations on the map, either (a) an alternative Cascade to the Parks and Greens Cascade must be defined, or (b) no Cascade exists, and Rule 1.8.2 (Parks and Greens Cascade) is ignored for the duration of the Game. {Comment: See Chateau d'Eau for the reason why.} - High and Hill stations are ignored, and the [Freewheeling] Action does not exist in the game, if there are no defined by containing the strings "High" or "Hill" or a direct translation of either term. No equivalent may be specified which is not a direct translation. *Rule 3.0.2: Zone, Quadrant and Other Miscellaneous Changes - If there is neither Meridian or Circle Line, then (instead of the Rule about placing used Tokens in a different Quadrant) Tokens which are used to perform Actions may not be placed on any Station which the Actioning Player would be capable of reaching with a Standard Move at maximum LV on eir next Turn. {Comment: this allows the placing of used Tokens on the board, and keeps the principle that they should be in a different region from the Player who played them.} If no Zones are defined on the Map, then all Rules relating to Zones, Zone Passes and Tithes are ignored, and Players shall gain a single Bronze Token for any Turn which is not a Passed Turn. If Zones are defined, then definitions for the Zones to be used must be supplied for those Rules which relate to Zones. In particular, the cost of Tithes and Zone Passes may be adjusted accordingly with the number of Zones. Manoeuvres and Gambits on the London Underground do not apply to any Turin '57 game, unless Stations with the exact same names are present on the Map. Other Manoeuvres may be defined in the standard ways (either by definition during a Game or by acceptance as a Proposal), each specific to the corresponding network, and should be listed in the corresponding Ruleset. Manoeuvres which rely on specific Quadrants or Zones, rather than Stations, do not apply unless defined separately in the particular Ruleset: Manoeuvres which rely on specific Station Categories are valid provided that the exact categories are present on the new Map (a replacement category will not do, unless it is a simple translation.) {Comment: A bit of a clearup needed there. This might do it.} Section 3.1: Chateau d'Eau: Paris Metro Guidebook. *Rule 3.1.1: Chateau d'Eau Mornington Crescent may be played on the Paris Metro. Map: http://www.paris.org/metro/gifs/metro.map.jpg Goal: Chateau d'Eau Bank: Hotel De Ville Loop Trap: Miromesnil Line Codes: The number of each Line is considered to be its Line Code. Circle Line Equivalent: formed by two lines, Lines 2 and 6,only on the Line Segments between Nation and Charles-De-Gaulle Etoile. River: The Seine Meridian: None. Narg Clamps may be removed at "Cite". Quadrants: "Quadrant 0" inside the Circle, "Quadrant 1" outside. A player on the Quadrant boundary must place used Tokens in a position that e could not reach with a Standard Move at 10 LV. Zones: none defined. *Rule 3.1.2: Swimming A player may cross the River when the Bridges are Up by playing a [Swimming] Pre-Move Action. This acts in every way like the [Walking] action, and the Token costs and time taken are the same, with the addition that all Papery or Edible Possessions held by that Player must be discarded. *Rule 3.1.3: RER et l'Option de Finsbury The RER lines on the Map are considered the equivalent of British Rail lines, and any Metro stations they come into contact with are considered equivalent to British Rail stations for the purposes of housing Emporia and purchasing Hats. Finsbury Option rules applied to Chateau d'Eau allow all RER stations on the Metro map to be included in the playing board, and Players may move along the RER lines with Line Codes of A, B, C and D: for those RER lines that point off the map, the last station before it goes off the map is considered a Terminus in all ways. *Rule 3.1.4: Station Classifications Station classifications are as on the London Underground, but translated into French. "Nord", "Sud", "Est", "Ouest" =3D North, South, East, West =3D = Compass Stations. "Parc" and "Vert" =3D Parks and Greens, and "Jardin" makes up = Gardens to complete the list of Verdant stations. "Tuileries" is considered Verdant. {Comment: because it's a very famous garden.} "Maison", "Ville" or "Cite" are Populated. "Rue" or "Boulevard" (Bd.) =3D A to Z. "Saint" (St), "Croix" or "Eglise" are Holy Stations. Terminus, Interchange and suburban British Rail equivalent (RER) connections are all obvious on the map. *Rule 3.1.5: Cascade des Rues et Boulevards. Due to the fact that there are far fewer Park or Green stations on the Paris Metro than on the London Underground, any and all of the standard rules about Parks and Greens Cascades do not apply. An alternative of a Streets and Roads Cascade ("Rue" and "Boulevard") replaces these rules and applies instead, being terminated by a move to a "Place" station. *Section 3.2: We're Bound for Botany Bay (not quite): Sydney Guidebook. *Rule 3.2.1: Macdonaldtown Mornington Crescent may be played on the transport network of Sydney. Map: http://people.enternet.com.au/~cbrnbill/maps/sydney.htm Goal: Macdonaldtown Bank: Town Hall Loop Trap: Rooty Hill Line Codes: SR: Southern Line (green) WR: Western Line (yellow) NR: Northern Line (red) IR: Illawarra Line (blue) BR: Bankstown Line (brown) CR: Cumberland Line (purple) MR: Monorail (while) LR: Light Rail (light blue) TZ: Taronga Zoo Ferry (blue) MF: Manly Ferry (light blue) WF: Watson's Bay Ferry (green) PF: Paramatta-Meadowbank Ferry (yellow) DF: Darling Harbour Ferry (purple) NF: Mosman-Neutral Bay Ferry (red) HF: Hunter's Hill Ferry (brown) Circle Line equivalent: none {Comment: just pointing this out.} River Thames equivalent: Sydney Harbour. Ferry stops which share a name with a rail station (e.g. Milson's Point) are considered Interchanges between the rail and ferry lines. Meridian: Central Station. This is considered to be in none of the four Quadrants. {Comment: either that or all four, and having it in no quadrant has a historical precedent - MN before the invention of Quadrant 0. Zones: none defined. Emporium Shops: Interchanges (as there is no inter-urban railway link mentioned on the Map.) Station classifications: As on the London Underground. Interchange Hats are claimable instead of British Rail Hats, and the "Visiting" and "Late Arrival" Actions do not exist. *Rule 3.2.2: Sydney Gambits All London Underground Manoeuvres are valid on the Sydney transport system, provided that stations of identical names exist. The Trellis Roundhouse Gambit is legal, provided that none of the Stations used are within 6 Stations of the Meridian (by the shortest possible route.) {Comment: to make its implementation similar to the current implementation, given that there is no Quadrant 0 to keep the moves apart in this game.} The following Manoeuvres also exist: The City Tourist (2 red, 4 blue, 3 green): Exhibition Centre -> Museum -> Circular Quay The PaulWay Arrival Gambit (1 black, 1 red, 1 green, 1 blue, 1 bronze, 1 silver): Hornsby -> Central -> Stanmore The Olympic Tourist (1 Gold, 1 Silver, 1 Bronze): Central -> Olympic Park -> Taronga Zoo The Danger Man Attack (6 Red, 4 Blue, 1 Silver): King's Cross -> Redfern -> Mount Druitt *Section 3.3: Brighton & Hove Guidebook *Rule 3.3.1: Oh We Do Like To Be Beside The Seaside Mornington Crescent may be played on the Brighton & Hove bus transport system. Map URL: http://members.xoom.com/asabove/metro.gif Goal : The Crescent (49) Bank : Bingo Hall (1) Loop : Lark Hill (5) Circle Line Equivalent : Formed by two lines - Line 5 and Line 7, the Line Segments between George Street and Churchill Square only. River : None Line Codes : 1, 5, 7, 25, 49 Meridian: The median point of the Map. Zones : None Quadrants : 1-4, marked on Map; no Quadrant Zero despite the presence of a Circle Line. {Comment: As the original Proposer of the variant intended: e stated that there was no Quadrant Zero, so I'm holding to that.} *Rule 3.3.2: Special Rules - Stations may be referred to as "Stops". - Map abbreviations such as "Rd" and "Gdns" should be read unabbreviated. - Holy Hats take the place of Compass Hats. - A Shop Stop is one with the string "Shop", "Asda", "Co-op", "C&A", "Sainsburys", "Somerfield", "Texaco" or "Waitrose" in its name. - In Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium), "British Rail Station" should be read as "Shop Stop", although "Edible" Possessions may be bought at Refectory. "British Rail Coffee" becomes "Styrofoam-Flavoured Coffee". - Certain loops of track may only be traversed in one direction, as indicated by arrows around that loop. Moves which involve traversing any Line Sections in the wrong direction are Invalid. - Certain Stops may only be accessed in one direction, as indicated by an arrow directly next to the Stop. If a Move ends at such a Stop having entered from the wrong direction, or begins at such a Stop and leaves in the wrong direction, it is Invalid. - Where a Stop is "not served Sundays", it is treated as Closed all day Sunday. - Hardwick Road counts as a Terminus Stop. A Move which passes through Hardwick Road is Invalid. - "Palace Pier" is a Stop with a Line Code of "N/A", connected to no other Stops. It may be Walked to from Sea Life Centre (just as Sea Life Centre may be walked to from Palace Pier), but only during Peak Hours. - A Player may perform the ten-minute neutral Action of "[Playing =46ruit Machines]", provided that eir Piece is situated at Palace Pier during Peak Hours. This Action costs one Bronze Token. After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a six-sided die to determine eir prize - this prize should be added to that Player's Token balance by the next Player to take eir Turn. If the next Player takes eir Turn before the die result arrives in the Lounge, no prize is given. Prize: 1-2 =3D Nothing, 3 =3D 1 Silver, 4 =3D 1 Gold, 5 =3D 3 = Silvers, 6 =3D 2 Golds. *Ruleset Part 4, Section 4.0: Other Games. *Rule 4.0.0: Non-MC Games Other games than MC may be played on the London Underground (or equivalent network.) The games in this Section are defined as being non-MC games: therefore, there is no Goal Station, no Action of [Opening MC], moves to Mornington Crescent do not win the Game, and Mornington Crescent Station is considered to be (1) open all the time, and (2) a normal Station like any other. The victory conditions in each game shall be defined in the Special Ruleset pertaining to that game. Other rules of the game of Mornington Crescent apply as normal unless contradicted by a Rule in this Ruleset. *Section 4.1: Capture the Flag *Rule 4.1.1: Capture the Flag "Capture the Flag" is a team game: therefore all rules of the "Team Play" Special Ruleset also apply to this game. Specific exceptions to this are that the number of Players in each team must be agreed on before the first move of the Game is played, and that the minimum number of Players in a team is one (in which case the game is an individual game rather than a team game). For each Team in the Game there shall exist a Flag, which is considered Indestructable, and may not be given to another Player on the same Team by means of the [Giving to ] Action. A Flag may be in the possession of a Player (in eir Luggage Rack), or may rest at a Station (as if it were a Token Stack.) Either way, its presence is noted as "Flag (T)" where (T) is a letter or set of letters that are clearly and unambiguously an abbreviation of the colour of the Team who owns it. {Comment: what about a Black team and a Blue team in the same game? Both abbreviate to B...} A Flag may be Shunted as if it were a Token Stack or a Player. *Rule 4.1.2: An Englishman's Home... In addition to the normal conditions, no Station in Zones 5, 6 or 7 may be a Home Station. There is only one Home Station for each entire Team, chosen by the first member of that Team to declare Home: this is known as the Team HQ. All Players on that Team may, and must, declare that Station as their Home Station in their first non-Passed Turn. *Rule 4.1.3: Capturing and Dropping If a Player has passed through or moved to a Station containing a =46lag during eir Turn, e may perform the Action "[Collecting Flag (T)]" to place the Flag of the specified Team in eir Luggage. If a Player is carrying a Flag, e may perform the post-Move Action of "[Flag (T) on ]" to place the Flag of the specified Team at a Station, where "" is any Station which the Actioning Player's Piece has passed through this Turn, or started or ended its Move at. A Player carrying a Flag in eir Luggage at the start of eir Turn may not make any Special Moves, or play any Post-Move Actions that alter eir Piece position. *Rule 4.1.4a: Winning - The Easy Way. Either this Rule, or Rule 4.1.4b, but not both, may apply to the game (at the Speaker's discretion, to be announced at the start of the game.) If, at the end of a Player's turn, a Flag belonging to one Team rests at the Team HQ of another Team, the Team whose HQ is involved is declared the Winners. *Rule 4.1.4b: Winning - The Hard Way. Either this Rule, or Rule 4.1.4a, but not both, may apply to the game (at the Speaker's discrection, to be announced at the start of the Game.) If, at the end of any Player's turn, the Flag of one Team rests at the HQ of another Team, then the Flag in question is removed from the game, as are all Pieces, Tokens and Possessions of the Team which has lost its Flag (with the exception of any Flags carried by Players on that Team: these are placed on the HQs of the Teams they belong to): and parentheses are put around the names of the Players to indicate that they may take no further part in the Game. When there is only one Flag remaining in the Game, its Team is declared the Winners. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 687 - Actions Against Other Players [Multiple] *Rename Section 1.10 to " Actions that target other Players" *Rule 1.10.0: Target Practice This Section concerns Actions played by one Player that affect another Player directly. Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that Action. {Comment: Oh dear, another of my explanatory "Rule 0" ideas... more to come} *Add this Rule to the Ruttsborough Ruleset: "Rule 1.10.0 does not apply: actions that target other Players may be performed at any time in the Post-Move phase of the Turn." Rule 1.10.3: amend the first sentence to "If, after eir Move, a Player shares a Station and Line with another Player, e may perform the Action of [Dead-End Shunting to ], where is a Terminus which is less than stations away, where is the Actioning Player's LV." {Comment: a semantic change mostly, but a Dead-End Shunt should IMHO only be able to happen if the shunt causes the player to crash into the Terminus with some force - i.e. if the Terminus is *less* than the maximum Shunting distance away: otherwise, the Piece comes to a stop exactly at the platform (i.e. a standard Shunt) rather than crashing into a dead end.} Renumber the Rules about Spanging (1.7.35), Shadowing (1.7.25), Velocity Bombs (1.7.43), and the Clamps (Spoon (1.7.4), Narg (1.4.27), Knid (not sure), Green (1.7.44)and Freem (1.4.26)) to be in Section 1.10. Also the rule about Knerdling (not sure of the Rule number), which should be with the Clamps. The Action Table must be adjusted accordingly to reflect references to the new Rule numbers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 688 - Consider Yourself Huffed [Enactment] A Player who shares a Station and Line with another Player at the end of eir Move may perform the Action "Huffing ": the target Player gains a Huff Clamp immediately. A Huff Clamp is an Indestructable Possession. A player carrying a Huff Clamp may not make any Standard Move that does not leave em closer to the Station at which e commenced eir Turn on the Turn immediately prior to being Huffed. A Huff Clamp may be removed by use of the [De-Huffing] Action, provided the Player is situated at the Station at which e commenced eir Turn on the Turn prior to receiving the Huff Clamp. New Action: Huffing (20-minute Post-Move, cost -2 Red and -1 Green) New Possession: Huff Clamp (Indestructable) New Action: De-Huffing (10-minute Post-Move, -1 Black) {Comment: This can be merely annoying or disastrous - it might be used just to deny a Manoeuvre by forcing a backtrack, or it might be used against someone who has just Wilded from Amersham to Morden with the Bridges up... Should be fun. Huffing is defined in the EM a "an attacking block which leaves the person in the same place but facing in the other direction" - hence it forces the Player back where e came from. Note that the movement does not have to be direct... a roundabout route is possible. This is intentional.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 689 - Garbage [Multiple] Reword Rule 1.7.39 (Ecofriendly) to:- A Player may perform the Neutral Action of "[Recycling ]" to recycle something in their possession - "Thing" may be a single Token, or a non-Indestructable Possession. If a single Token is Recycled, the Actioning Player gains one Green Token. If a Possession listed in Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium) is Recycled, the Actioning Player gains Green Tokens equal to half the Bronze Token value of the Possession (rounded down). Recycling is considered a Token Exchange Action, unless a Possession is being Recycled. And adjust the relevant Action to read:- = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Recycling ] Neut 1.7.39 5 Varies Varies = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 690 - Magno-Clamps [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Magno-Clamping ] Neut 1.7.x -1 Gr [Attracting] Neut 1.7.x Varies [Magno-Gone] Neut 1.7.x = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Magno-Clamping ]", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. A Magno-Clamped Player gains a "Magno-Clamp" Possession. Magno-Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. If a Player is carrying a Magno Clamp, e attracts Metallic Tokens from eir surroundings; e may perform the neutral Action of "[Attracting]" = to exert this ability - upon performing the Action, e may take one = Metallic Token from each Player or Token Stack which is less than three = Stations away from eir Piece. However, a Player carrying a Magno Clamp will find it hard to let go = of any Metallic Tokens e has - if a Player is carrying a Magno Clamp, e = may not perform any Actions which involve the expenditure of Metallic Tokens, may not Drop or Hoard Metallic Tokens, and Metallic Tokens may not be taken from eir Possession by other Players. If a Player carrying a Magno Clamp plays a Move which involves passing through or leaving a Station occupied by another Player carrying a Magno Clamp, that Move is Invalid. A Player may destroy a single Magno Clamp which e is carrying, by performing the Action of "[Magno-Gone]". Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player loses four Metallic Tokens of eir choice, if e has any. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 691 - Time Passes... [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Waiting] Neut 1.7.x Varies = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Waiting]" to spend part of their Turn merely watching time pass - the duration of this Action can be = any period the Actioning Player wishes, between five minutes and one day. { Comments : Without this, there is reasonable incentive to perform all manner of superfluous Actions just to fill out the rest of your = allotted hour, if you're keen to get Game Time to a certain point by the end of your Turn. Not, I feel, a good thing. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 692 - A Special Need [Multiple] { As raised on the mailing list - something that firmly establishes the = idea of a "Special Move", making Wilding and similar Actions much easier to keep track of, and Move Validity rather simpler. } 1. The Soul of Wit [Amendment] Move the last paragraph of Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves) to Rule 1.5.1 (Keep = the Piece), and reword Rule 1.5.0 to:- "The following Moves are possible in the Game of Mornington Crescent: * The name of any Station on the Map * The word "Pass" * The word "Timeout" All Moves are Valid by default, unless a Rule or combination of Rules declares them to be Invalid. A Move of "Pass" or "Timeout", however, = is *always* Valid. Certain events permit Players to make Special Moves to a given destination - these Moves do not pass through Stations, but may still= be made Invalid by other Rules. In addition, a Player's LV is reduced to zero after making a Special Move. (When a Rule says that something 'permits a Special Move', this means that it permits the current Player to make a Special Move during the current Turn.)" 2. Getting There [Enactment, as 1.6.2] When a Player makes a Move to a Station, that Station must be at a distance of 'x' Stations, where 'x' is eir Line Velocity - if it is closer or further, e cannot get there at that speed, and such a Move = is Invalid. When making a Special Move, however, an incorrect Line Velocity will = not make a Move Invalid. 3. Golly [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.16 (Playing with Food), replace the Marmalade Sandwich's = special effect with:- When a Player performs the Action "[Eating Marmalade Sandwich]", a Special Move to Paddington is permitted. 4. Right of Way [Amendment] Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) to:- A Player may perform the pre-Move Action of "[Walking]" to permit a Special Move to any Station within Walking Distance. 5. Strile, Friend, Strile [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.12 (Basic Striles) to:- If a Player's Line Velocity is six or more, e may perform a Strile via the pre-Move Action of "[Striling]"; this permits em to make a Special Move to any Strilable Station. A Station is said to be Strilable if it has a Token Stack, and if that Token Stack is identical to the Stack at the Player's current Piece location. 6. Stubthumper [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.33 (Stubbery) to:- If a Player owns the Ticket Stub for the Station eir Piece is situated at, e may perform the pre-Move Action "[Stub Link]" - this permits em to make a Special Move to any other Station which e has a Ticket Stub for. 7. Of Borneo [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.11.1 (Born to be Wild) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Wild]" to permit a Special Move = to any Wild Station. 8. Paintball's Going Home [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.12.4 (Going Home) to:- A Player may performs the pre-Move Action of "[Home]" or "[Home: ]"; both of these permit a Special Move to eir Home Station. 9. Mustn't... Repeal... [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.2.1 (Terminal Velocity) to:- If, at the start of eir Turn before any other Player Actions a Player has an LV of 10 or more, and e does not (and is not forced to by any other Rule) reduce it below 10 before eir Move, e may make a Special Move to any Terminus which e shares a Line with, provided that = reaching it would not involve a change of Line Direction (this option is in addition to the standard Moves available through eir natural LV-dependent Piece Movement and any Special Moves available). 10. Just Drop Me At The End Of The Road [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.3.2 (Home Isn't Where The Start Is)) to:- When a Player performs the "[Home:]" Action, it permits a Special Move= to any Station which shares a Quadrant and Line with that Player's Home Station. { MC exception no longer required, since you can't Special Move to a = Closed Station. } 11. Whose Line Is It Anyway? [Amendment] In Rule 1.5.11 (Changing Line), replace "A Piece Move that involves a = change of Line" with "A non-Special Move that involves a change of Line". 12. Loose Ends [Amendments] To the start of Rules 1.8.1 and 1.8.6, add the paragraph "This Rule is closed for repair - the following paragraphs should be treated as if they do not appear in the ruleset. This paragraph will remove itself from the Ruleset at the end of Week Four, at which point Kevan will lose ten Kudos." { I'd rather just close off the Loops rather than attempt to bring them = in Line, and having the Proposal fail for doing it in an unpopular way; = I'll be proposing fixes either for this Week or next. There's a bit of a = stick there to encourage me to get around to it. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 693 - But No Taxi [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Huffing ] Post 1.4.27 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Huffing ]", where = is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. This Action may only be performed as the first Action of a Player's Post-Move Action Phase. Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player may select any = number between zero and 'x' (where 'x' is equal to eir LV, plus the LV of the Huffed Player) - both the Actioning and Huffed Player's LVs are then = set to this value. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- { Speaker's Comment: I find it fairly incredible that we have two totally different Proposals for Huffing this Week... weird. } Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Tue Apr 20 18:00:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28684 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Apr 1999 01:00:42 -0000 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 01:00:42 -0000 Received: from modem-49.dextroamphetam.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.62.177] helo=franz-liszt) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZlNY-0002NZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:00:41 +0100 Message-ID: <003c01be8b93$26410000$b13e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:06:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >{ Speaker's Comment: I find it fairly incredible that we have two totally > different Proposals for Huffing this Week... weird. } So do I - but I like both of them, and would like to see both of them pass, so I suggest that one should be renamed, perhaps to "Toffing" (also part of real MC and in the IMCS rulebook and Encyclopaedia Morningtonia) - otherwise it's a straight choice between the two, and IMHO both ideas are good enough to keep. It will have to be agreed between the proposers of the ideas first, though, otherwise both might change and we would be left with the same situation... My suggestion (as the proposer of 688) is the simpler Proposal 693 is probably better to change its name, as my own more complex one (Proposal 688) claims to me to be more in keeping with the existing Encyclopaedia Morningtonia (an attacking block that leaves the huffed player where e is, but facing in the opposite direction and heading back the way e came.) However, if the Proposer of 693 is not willing to change the name of the Action (please announce this within two days) then I shall mail the Speaker amending Proposal 688 to change all references in my "Huffing" proposal to "Toffing" on Thursday evening. Also, just a note to the Speaker to mention the effect of Proposal 687 on both Huffing proposals: if Proposal 687 passes, whichever (or both) of the Proposals 688 and 693 pass should be renumbered into the Anti-Player Actions section, (rather than to 1.4.27 as Proposal 693 suggests.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Apr 20 22:33:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23171 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Apr 1999 05:33:34 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 05:33:34 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA27924 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:38:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:36:07 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------ > >{ Speaker's Comment: I find it fairly incredible that we have two totally > different Proposals for Huffing this Week... weird. } So, what happens if they both pass? --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 21 08:48:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17375 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Apr 1999 15:48:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 15:48:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p123-49.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.199.177]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07022 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:48:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <023f01be8c0e$3d3273e0$acc752c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:46:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Charge Spiral Proposal, (probably) Final Edition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I propose changing Rule 1.19.5 to have this wording: "Rule 1.19.5 - Charge Spiral Any Player may perform the neutral Action "[Charge Spiral Inwards]" or "[Charge Spiral Outwards]" to put a Charge Spiral into effect. When a Charge Spiral Inwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve a decrease in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Inwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at Tottenham Court Road at the end of any Turn. When a Charge Spiral Outwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at a Terminal Station with a Charge of 80 or more at the end of any Turn." The price of a Charge Spiral, either Inwards or outwards, should remain as it is. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 21 09:12:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 536 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Apr 1999 16:12:46 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 16:12:46 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02512 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:12:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12306 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:08:43 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id RAA14895; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:08:41 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904211608.RAA14895@u...> Date: 21 Apr 99 17:06:47 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-291-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 21-Apr-99 16:46 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Charge Spiral Proposal, (probably) Final Edition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >When a Charge Spiral Outwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve= >an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral >Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at a Terminal Station with a= >Charge of 80 or more at the end of any Turn." Cool. Very slight nit pick, though - Pieces have Charge, Stations have Current. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Wed Apr 21 10:32:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21261 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Apr 1999 17:32:36 -0000 Received: from m7.egroups.com (HELO findmail.com) (207.138.41.153) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 17:32:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 30308 invoked by uid 505); 21 Apr 1999 15:56:55 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:56:54 -0000 In-Reply-To: <023f01be8c0e$3d3273e0$acc752c3@opus> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Charge Spiral Proposal, (probably) Final Edition Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When a Charge Spiral Outwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve > an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral > Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at a Terminal Station with a > Charge of 80 or more at the end of any Turn." There really aren't many Termini with a Charge that high, though, glancing at the Map; critical ones such as High Barnet and Morden, in particular, are quite a lot lower. Perhaps just "any Terminus outside of Zone 1"? Or would that be too weak? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From Wed Apr 21 13:57:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25496 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Apr 1999 20:57:51 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 20:57:51 -0000 Received: from opus (p123-60.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.199.188]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA00697 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:57:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00df01be8c39$82b55920$bcc752c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:55:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Charge Spirals Proposal, Final Edition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I propose changing Rule 1.19.5 to have this wording: "Rule 1.19.5 - Charge Spiral Any Player may perform the neutral Action "[Charge Spiral Inwards]" or "[Charge Spiral Outwards]" to put a Charge Spiral into effect. When a Charge Spiral Inwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve a decrease in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Inwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at Tottenham Court Road at the end of any Turn. When a Charge Spiral Outwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at a Terminal Station with a Current of 70 or more at the end of any Turn." The price of a Charge Spiral, either Inwards or outwards, should remain as it is. Ole [Changed Charge to Current and 80 to 70.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/l-nomic-d Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com From kevan@d... Fri Apr 23 04:42:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25624 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Apr 1999 11:42:39 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Apr 1999 11:42:39 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Apr 1999 11:42:40 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <00df01be8c39$82b55920$bcc752c3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Charge Spirals Proposal, Final Edition Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: MN: Charge Spirals Proposal, Final Edition X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:42:46 -0000 In-Reply-To: <00df01be8c39$82b55920$bcc752c3@opus> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com > When a Charge Spiral Outwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve > an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral > Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at a Terminal Station with a > Current of 70 or more at the end of any Turn." Hmm. Better, but still a bit high - there remain a lot of outlying Termini which fall below the mark. I suppose we can always Wild elsewhere, though, really, so it doesn't matter too much. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Mon Apr 26 08:48:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31985 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Apr 1999 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 1999 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 1999 15:47:58 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <003c01be8b93$26410000$b13e883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:48:16 -0000 In-Reply-To: <003c01be8b93$26410000$b13e883e@f...> From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com > My suggestion (as the proposer of 688) is the simpler Proposal 693 > is probably better to change its name, as my own more complex one > (Proposal 688) claims to me to be more in keeping with the existing > Encyclopaedia Morningtonia (an attacking block that leaves the huffed > player where e is, but facing in the opposite direction and heading back > the way e came.) However, if the Proposer of 693 is not willing to > change the name of the Action (please announce this within two days) > then I shall mail the Speaker amending Proposal 688 to change all > references in my "Huffing" proposal to "Toffing" on Thursday evening. Sorry I've not gotten back on this one sooner - Proposal 693 was mine, and after musing a bit I think it's probably more deserving of the "Huffing" trousers. Not being familiar with the Morningtonia defition, I chose an implementation which might make a huffing sort of sound - adjusting LVs without actually affecting anything else seemed quite fitting. "Official" Huffing doesn't fit entirely neatly with the current game, since there's normally no real concept of facing a direction (perhaps there should be; bounding back and forth U-turning with a high LV seems quite counter-intuitive). I think Huffing fits an LV shift better than Toffing, but it really depends if both of these pass or not... I'm presumably too late anyway, of course. Sorry I've not said anything sooner; absent-mindedness, busyness and relaxation away from computers. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon Apr 26 14:50:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1229 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Apr 1999 21:45:28 -0000 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.211) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 1999 21:45:27 -0000 Received: from modem-74.painter.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.135.74] helo=franz-liszt) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10bslx-0007ZZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:18:37 +0100 Message-ID: <000801be902f$15365ee0$4a87883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:52:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Never mind. The deed has been done: I have emailed the Speaker with an amendment to my own Proposal 688, changing all occurrences of "Huffing" to "Toffing" before the official voting deadline. No other changes have been made other than the change in the name of the Action. It is now safe to vote FOR both proposals 688 and 693, if one wishes, without creating a bug in the Ruleset of there being two different Actions with the same name. I myself have voted for Kevan's proposal, but hope mine passes as well. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon Apr 26 16:29:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23587 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Apr 1999 23:29:25 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 1999 23:29:25 -0000 Received: from modem-74.painter.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.135.74] helo=franz-liszt) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10buT2-0001lc-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:07:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000201be903d$9b167e60$4a87883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:36:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Inactivity and timeouts... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two comments: (1) I will be Inactive again from Wednesday afternoon to Monday evening. (2) Nobody has played in the Long Game for ages. Whoever is to play next should be forced to Timeout. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 26 22:26:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9297 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 05:26:47 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 05:26:47 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA10209 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:31:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:29:22 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Inactivity and timeouts... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Two comments: > > (1) I will be Inactive again from Wednesday afternoon to Monday >evening. > (2) Nobody has played in the Long Game for ages. Whoever is to play >next should be forced to Timeout. With my luck, it's probably me, although I could swear I was waiting on someone else. I'll go have a look. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 26 22:41:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15763 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 05:41:35 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 05:41:35 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA10903 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:46:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:44:09 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Inactivity and timeouts... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Two comments: >> >> (1) I will be Inactive again from Wednesday afternoon to Monday >>evening. >> (2) Nobody has played in the Long Game for ages. Whoever is to play >>next should be forced to Timeout. > >With my luck, it's probably me, although I could swear I was waiting on >someone else. > >I'll go have a look. The last post listed on the EGroups page is from PaulWay, which makes it Kevan's move. I'm next after that, so I'll go ahead and do the Timeout. Sorry, Kevan, but it's been nearly two weeks. Interestingly, the table of contents on the page says there's 131 posts, but only lists them up to 130. You have to click 130 and then hit 'next message' to see 131... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 26 22:55:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21328 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 05:55:00 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 05:55:00 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA11439 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:59:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:57:34 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes to all of them. (I remembered! H'ray!) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Apr 26 22:56:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21966 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 05:56:32 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 05:56:32 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA11611 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:01:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:59:06 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Yes to all of them. > >(I remembered! H'ray!) > >--Riff Drat! That was meant only for Dunx, obviously. Oh well, you'll all see the voting results soon enough anyway. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue Apr 27 01:27:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23261 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 08:27:04 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 08:27:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 1999 08:27:05 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:27:05 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Inactivity and timeouts... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The last post listed on the EGroups page is from PaulWay, which makes it > Kevan's move. I'm next after that, so I'll go ahead and do the Timeout. > Sorry, Kevan, but it's been nearly two weeks. Tish. Not sure what I was thinking, there. Oh well. It's a fair cop. > Interestingly, the table of contents on the page says there's 131 posts, > but only lists them up to 130. You have to click 130 and then hit 'next > message' to see 131... eGroups has been behaving a little oddly lately, having trouble keeping track of unread messages, amongst other things. They're apparently working on it. Not a bad new layout to the pages, really. Good to see the frames gone. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Apr 27 02:08:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11913 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 09:07:26 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 09:07:26 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29956 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:07:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn43 (uksn43.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.18]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02629 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:07:06 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn43 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08070; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:56:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199904270856.JAA08070@uksn43> Date: 27 Apr 99 09:47:23 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UNX8.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-298-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 27-Apr-99 00:36 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Inactivity and timeouts... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > (1) I will be Inactive again from Wednesday afternoon to Monday >evening. Duly noted - a nicley timed Inactivity, entirely contained within Week 3. > (2) Nobody has played in the Long Game for ages. Whoever is to play >next should be forced to Timeout. I shall issue a Game State roundup shortly as a reminder. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Apr 27 02:12:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13527 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 09:12:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 09:12:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01368 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:11:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn43 (uksn43.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.18]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11311 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:07:08 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn43 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA05956; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:49:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199904270849.JAA05956@uksn43> Date: 27 Apr 99 09:45:46 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UNX8.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-297-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 26-Apr-99 22:52 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 2 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Never mind. The deed has been done: I have emailed the Speaker with >an amendment to my own Proposal 688, changing all occurrences of >"Huffing" to "Toffing" before the official voting deadline. No other >changes have been made other than the change in the name of the Action. Indeed you did - apologies for not doing anything with it. Strictly speaking, although the modification was received before the deadline my laxity means that the announcement is only just effective and, hence, the= modified 688 should properly be Voted on next Week. However, since no actual substantive change has taken place I am inclined to= let the vote be taken this Week instead - this is contrary to the letter of the Rules, but since (as I interpret it) the four day deadline is intended to prevent malicious changes being made I think that letting the vote happen this Week instead is in the spirit. If anyone has an objection to this, feel free to rise Point of Order and I shall postpone the vote on 688 accordingly. Once again, my apologies for not acting promptly. What can I say - it is not= just Pilgrimages that have been neglected over the last week. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Apr 27 04:20:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3018 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 11:20:10 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 11:20:10 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10865 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:20:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04162 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:20:07 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id MAA18625; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:20:06 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904271120.MAA18625@u...> Date: 27 Apr 99 12:17:24 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Week 2 Extension Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: Apologies for this, but I'm not going to be able to do the Week End stuff this evening due to an unfortunate outbreak of Real Life. I'm therefore extending= Week 2 by a day. This infestation should be under control by tomorrow lunchtime, at which time) or shortly thereafter) Week End documents will wing their way in the now traditional manner. Sorry about this. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Apr 27 05:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4559 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 12:34:11 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 12:34:11 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03339 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:34:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21302 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:34:04 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA12864; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:34:04 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904271234.NAA12864@u...> Date: 27 Apr 99 13:30:36 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States 27/4/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Game states as of 13:30 BST 27/4/99 are as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times BST) ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long Dunx 27-April-1999 13:28 [1] 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 16-April-1999 14:30 15 MN-R Rutts Kevan 23-April-1999 14:55 16 MN-B Chateau RiffRaff 20-April-1999 14:01 17 MN-C Flag Kevan 26-April-1999 09:52 Games 13 and 16 are due a Timeout now (Kevan to play through in both - as emself in 13, as Drone in 16); Game 15 will be due a Timeout in about an hour and a half or so (PaulWay to play through). -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue Apr 27 05:59:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17572 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 12:59:02 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 12:59:02 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 1999 12:59:03 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:59:03 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <199904271234.NAA12864@u...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Game States 27/4/99 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Games 13 and 16 are due a Timeout now (Kevan to play through in both - as > emself in 13, as Drone in 16); Paul's next after Grimace in Game 13, isn't he? Or have I missed a GSD or a declaration of Inactivity? Running out of spare time, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Apr 27 06:04:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20540 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 13:04:18 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 13:04:18 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13317 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:04:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12862 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:03:52 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id OAA05686; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:03:51 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904271303.OAA05686@u...> Date: 27 Apr 99 14:02:28 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-308-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 27-Apr-99 13:59 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Game States 27/4/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Paul's next after Grimace in Game 13, isn't he? Or have I missed a GSD or a= >declaration of Inactivity? You are quite correct. Apologies. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Apr 27 13:18:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2445 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Apr 1999 20:18:52 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 20:18:52 -0000 Received: from opus (p138-55.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.119]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13733 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:18:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00af01be90eb$104f4f60$77cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:16:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Lost property? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been thinking about a Lost Property Office. If I, say, lost a parrot in the tube, where would I go to get it back? Does LT have a central Lost Property Office? In game terms, we could have dropped things* end up in the Lost Property Office, and be reclaimable from there within, say, a round. *) Not all of them, of course. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Apr 28 04:44:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24118 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Apr 1999 11:44:00 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 1999 11:44:00 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.19] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Apr 1999 11:44:00 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:44:00 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <00af01be90eb$104f4f60$77cd52c3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Lost property? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I, say, lost a parrot in the tube, where would I go to get it back? I dread to think. > Does LT have a central Lost Property Office? Baker Street, apparently, after asking the Internet about it (http://www.londontransport.co.uk/company/4_1_1_8.html). I thought the Lost Property office was at Paddington, myself; is that maybe the nearest Tube station to the actual building? > In game terms, we could have dropped things* end up in the Lost Property > Office, and be reclaimable from there within, say, a round. Items are rarely lost, though, really - they're either stolen or destroyed, and reclaiming such things would seem a bit odd. I suppose we could replace "Discarding" with "Losing", but having items floating around in a "removed from game" area for later retrieval is going to get vaguely confusing. Maybe we could just have a Lost Property Office that dispenses random Possessions (including Clamps), for a two-Bronze collection fee. Hmm. Or - more realistically - you can buy any Possession you like for two Bronze from there, but only once per Game... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed Apr 28 13:46:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30849 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Apr 1999 20:45:58 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 1999 20:45:58 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10cbDR-000Ccz-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:45:58 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:44:27 GMT Message-ID: <37277223.1265761@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week End Stuff - Another Day's Delay Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry about this, but I'm going to have to put the Week End stuff = back another day. I'm just too drained to do this now. Like I say, sorry to mess you all about. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 29 14:36:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9387 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Apr 1999 21:36:02 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 1999 21:36:02 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10cyTR-0000Ho-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:36:02 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:34:31 GMT Message-ID: <3728bfda.1232957@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 2 - An Additional Apology Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46urther apologies for not being on the ball this Week - as mentioned = before, a surfeit of Reality is the culprit, biting even harder than usual. This is= also why I've been a little slow in Moving. I'm afraid I must plead your indulgence for a short while once more - I = simply do not have the time this evening to do the ruleset updates required by = the passage of those Proposals from last Week. I will endeavour to do the = updates over the calendar weekend but I'm afraid that is a couple of days away as= I write this note. Just so you know, really. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 29 14:36:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9408 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Apr 1999 21:36:05 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 1999 21:36:05 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10cyTS-0000Ho-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:36:03 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:34:33 GMT Message-ID: <372accb3.4522416@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Three -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 694 - Charge Spiral Updates [Multiple] I propose changing Rule 1.19.5 to have this wording: "Rule 1.19.5 - Charge Spiral Any Player may perform the neutral Action "[Charge Spiral Inwards]" or "[Charge Spiral Outwards]" to put a Charge Spiral into effect. When a Charge Spiral Inwards is in effect, any Move which does not involve a decrease in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge = Spiral Inwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at Tottenham Court Road at = the end of any Turn. When a Charge Spiral Outwards is in effect, any Move which does not = involve an increase in the Moving Piece's Charge is Illegal. A Charge Spiral Outwards remains in effect until a Piece rests at a Terminal Station with= a Current of 70 or more at the end of any Turn." The price of a Charge Spiral, either Inwards or outwards, should remain = as it is. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 695 - No Voting For Yourself... [Amendment] Amend the first paragraph of Rule 0.5.2 to read: "All Active Players may cast votes on current Proposals by sending eir votes in an email to the Speaker with a subject line of "MN: Votes" (if the email does not have this subject line, the votes may be considered invalid.) No player may cast a Vote on a Proposal that e proposed emself, and any such Vote submitted is invalid. Inactive Players may not vote, and any votes cast by an Inactive Player are considered invalid." *Alter the Kudos table to remove the reference to Players voting for eir own Proposals. {Comment: Is there really a point in allowing a Player to vote for eir own Proposal but penalising eir Kudos for it?...} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 696 - No Hiding Place (1) [Multiple] Repeal Rule 1.4.16 (Nantucket) and remove all reference to the Action of "Reshuffling" in the Action Table. Any Possessions contained in the Nantucket of any player are to be moved into that Player's normal Possessions in eir Luggage Rack (i.e. the asterisks are removed from around the Possession.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 697 - No Hiding Place (2) [Multiple] -Remove the Money Belt from the Emporium. -Remove the sentence "This effect specifically overrides Money" Belts from Rule 1.7.48 (Blonking). This Rule should also be renumbered into Section 1.10 (as an anti-Player action) along with the reference to it in the Action Table. -Remove the bracketed paragraph beginning "(If the Shunted Player possesses a Money Belt...)" from Rule 1.10.1 -And remove the Money Belt reference from Rule 2.4.4. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 698 - Shockwaves! Amend Rule 2.4.4 (Ruttsborough Ruleset, "Crash Barrier"), amending the list of affected Players from "in the same Quadrant" to "whose location is less than (n) stations away from the Crashing Player, where (n) is half the Crashing Player's LV," {Comment: Shockwaves aren't *THAT* powerful, honest... and the idea is that the higher the LV of the player, the greater the area of effect. But a potential 15-station radius struck me as too powerful even for a Rutts game.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 699 - Drivebacks (Enactment, Ruttsborough Special Ruleset only) A player may perform the Action [-station Driveback on ], where is a Line that passes throught the Station e is situated on and is equal to or less than the Actioning Player's LV. Upon performing this Action, all Players on that Line are moved a distance of stations along that Line (or to a Terminus, if this is closer) in a Line Direction which is directly away from the Actioning Player. The Actioning Player loses points of LV. If a Driveback would result in a player being driven through a Blocked Station or to a Closed Station, then the affected player stops at the station immediately prior to the Blocked or Closed Station, as if it were a Terminus. Any player whose Piece cannot be moved the full distance of stations - whether this is prevented by a Terminus, Closed or Blocked Station - loses one Plastic Token of the Actioning Player's choice. New Action: [Driveback on ] 20-min Post-Move, cost 3 Red. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 700 - Ever Decreasing Circles [Multiple] 1. Still Right Here, Where I Always Was [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.8.6 (Loop the Loop) to:- A Game may be in one of several Loop states, each of which must have = the following defining features:- * One or more Trap Stations. * A Sidestep Action to allow a Player to avoid being drawn into the Loop. * A Terminate Action to allow a Player to end the Loop. During a Player's Turn, if the previous Turn (other than those which includes a Loop Sidestep Action or a Move of "Pass") saw that Player's Piece ending that Turn at a Trap Station, the current Player is caught in the relevant Loop. When caught, moving to any Station other than = the Next Station is an Invalid Move, and a Special Move to the next listed Trap Station for that Loop is permitted (if no more are listed, a Special Move to the first in the list is permitted). If a Player performs the Sidestep or Terminate Action, e ignores the = Loop for the remainder of eir Turn. { Simplification ahoy, with a fairly large dose of How I Think Loops = Should Work. Loops become compulsory if you hit a Trap Station, rather than optional (more of a force of nature than a tool of man), and by = assuming that we'll never have two Loops sharing a Trap Station (I see little reason why we'd want such things) and that Loops have a fixed rather = than optional sequence, a lot of it can be cut down. This also uses proper Moves to Loop Stations, rather than enforced Piece movement and a = skipped Move phase. } 2. Hello Dollis [Amendment] If Rule 1.8.1 (Dollis Hill Loop) has more than one paragraph, remove the first one. { Tidying up should my Proposal "A Special Need" have passed and put the Dollis Loop into cold storage. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 701 - If Your Mansion House Needs Haunting [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Ghosting] Pre 1.11.x -1 Bk = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The London Underground has a number of disused or semi-existent Ghost Stations - those featuring in the Game are Aldwych, Blake Hall, = British Museum, Brompton Road, Down Street, Hob's End, North End, North Weald, Ongar and The Millennium Dome. Although not physically on the Map, = they are considered to be present on it. A Player may perform the Action of "[Ghosting]" to slip away to a = Ghost Station - if this Action is performed, a Special Move to any empty = Ghost Station is permitted (a Ghost Station is empty if no Players are = there). Ghost Stations are not on any Line (a Line Code of "GH" should be used where such a thing is required), nor in any Quadrant or Zone, have no Venbacker Numbers and all have a Current of 50. They may not be Moved = to by any means other than Ghosting, and - not being connected to the Underground by normal means - are an incalculable distance from other Stations, adjacent to nowhere and requiring a suitable Special Move to escape them. { Maybe a decent implemenation, at last? Ghost Stations are essentially perpetually Wild, but aren't connected to normal Stations and can thus only be escaped from by a Special Move (Homing or what have you, or = even Ghosting elsewhere). You can only Move to an empty Ghost Station, so they become a network of hiding places. At the end of the day, Ghosting just lets you sneak "off the Map" for as long as you can afford to, with possible difficulty involved in getting back. And no, this won't break Capture the Flag games - you can't hide at a Ghost Station with your Team's Flag, because you need to make a Special Move to get there (and can't do so whilst carrying a Flag). } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 702 - Bring Back Spanging [Multiple] 1. Spangers and Mash [Amendment, Repeal] Remove the "[Spanging...]" Action and Repeal Rule 1.7.35 (Spanging = Offence). 2. Spanging Offence [Enactment, Section 1.4] If a Player is carrying a Spanger, e may perform Shunt Actions free of charge, and eir Line Velocity is not decreased when performing them. { Repealing old girlfriends' rules is on something of a par with throwing away the more traditional relationship relics, really - I'll just adjust the concept of the Spanger, instead, I think, which has = been sadly under-used since its original inception. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 703 - Clamp-Tampering [Multiple] In Rule 1.7.49 (Vermicious Knids), replace "A Player may remove a Knid Clamp by playing the "De-Knidding" Action while situated at eir Home Station with an LV of zero." with "A Player may destroy a single Knid Clamp in eir Possession, by performing the Action of "[De-Knidding]" whilst at eir Home Station." Also reduce the cost of the De-Knidding Action from two Blue Tokens to zero Tokens, and increase the cost of the Knidding Action from two Reds to four Reds. { Getting Home, slowing down *and* paying two Blues just seemed preposterous - as in Greek legend, just getting Home should be enough. Two Reds to give a Knid Clamp is *far* too cheap, as well, really; regarding Knidding as an Action which says "Target Player who shares a Station with you cannot win the Game until he returns to eir Home Station", it's rather powerful. Being able to do this for a mere brace of Reds - or just one in Ruttsborough - seems absurd. } In Rule 1.4.27 (The Narg Clamp explained), remove the third paragraph (that which bans moving to the Crescent or performing Actions involving Blue Tokens). Also adjust the cost of the Narging Action from one Red, one Bronze, one Blue to three Red. { Simplifying the aim of the Clamp (another 'you can't win' clause seems over the top, and the Blue denial seems arbitrary) and making the cost a little more expensive, with more correct use of colour. } Move Rule 1.7.4 (Open the Cutlery Drawer, Mrs Higgins), Rule 1.7.43 (The Velocity Bomb), Rule 1.7.44 (The Green Clamp) and Rule 1.7.49 (Vermicious Knids) to Section 1.4 (Tokens and Possessions). If any of those Rules have been moved already, though, don't bother. { Putting them along with the rest of the Clamps, unless they all got = moved elsewhere by Proposal 687 last Week. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 704 - Run and Hyde [Multiple] Reword Rule 1.7.38 (Jekyll and Hyde Park) to:- A Player may perform the Action "[Hyde Transformation]" to gain the = Hyde Mask Possession, provided they are situated at Hyde Park Corner. The Hyde Mask is a Unique Possession. If a Player carries the Hyde Mask, e may increase or decrease eir Line Velocity by five rather than three. Also, any Actions which target the Player have their Token cost increased by one Red Token, and any Actions e performs have their Token cost reduced by one Red Token. If a Player carries the Hyde Mask, e may not pass through or Move to Holy Stations, nor may e perform the "[Opening MC]" Action. If anyone is currently Transformed in any Games, they cease to be so and gain the Hyde Mask. This paragraph then removes itself from the ruleset. Alter the cost of the "[Hyde Transformation]" Action to one Blue Token = and two Red Tokens. { Tweaked for congruity - rather than appending an (H) to one's name and having rules for one-at-a-time, this just makes the Mr(s) Hyde trait a Unique Possession. I've taken the opportunity to make the thing a little more powerful, too (one extra Red to hit em with *any* Action, and a Ruttsboroughesque cheapening of their own offensive Actions), = since it's not been used very much. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu Apr 29 14:36:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9491 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Apr 1999 21:36:13 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 1999 21:36:13 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10cyTX-0000Ho-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:36:07 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:34:37 GMT Message-ID: <372bd005.5372765@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 3 - Voting Results for Week 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 686 Special Rulesets Renumbering 5 1 1 3 Passes 687 Actions Against Other Players 5 2 - 3 Passes 688 Consider Yourself Toffed 6 1 - 3 Passes [a] 689 Garbage 6 1 - 3 Passes 690 Magno-Clamps 4 1 2 3 Passes 691 Time Passes... 3 1 3 3 Fails 692 A Special Need 3 1 3 3 Fails 693 But No Taxi 6 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 686 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS AGA - FOR FOR = =46OR 687 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS PAS - FOR FOR = =46OR 688 (Jonathan) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR FOR = =46OR 689 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR FOR = =46OR 690 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA PAS - AGA FOR = =46OR 691 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - AGA PAS - AGA FOR = =46OR 692 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - AGA PAS - FOR AGA = =46OR 693 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR FOR = =46OR -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 36 0 0 16 38 16 3 28 = 3 Halved: 18 0 8 19 1 14 = 1 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +16 +21 0 +0 = +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 I -1 -8 I 0 -0 = -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +3 n +3 +0 n +3 +3 = +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 +0 a 0 -0 = -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 +0 t 0 +0 = +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i 0 -0 = -0 Finger/Pulse: v +5 +0 v +0 +0 v 0 +0 = +0 e e e Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +8 +6 0 +0 = +3 [*] Kudos Gifts -10 +1 +5 +1 +1 +1 = +1 [b] = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: -2 +4 +0 +31 +20 +4 +4 = +7 Final Kudos: 11 16 4 0 39 39 16 4 18 = 8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] was 'Huffed'. Archived Proposal updated also. [b] two things: 1. all Active Players get one point for putting up with my crappy Speakership this Week. 2. Jonathan gets an extra 4 points for being persistent in raising a Points of Order about an error in the Ruleset which I haven't = done anything about yet (but which will be done with the rest of the ruleset updates). Consider this a redistribution of my regular three point bonus. [*] Ruttsborough Award - Jonathan (Special Rulesets = Renumbering): +5 IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (But No Taxi): +3 CAMREC Cleanup Award - Kevan (Garbage): +3 Mrs Trellis Award - Jonathan (Consider Yourself Toffed) = [a]: +3 Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Apr 29 19:17:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27168 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Apr 1999 02:17:47 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 02:17:47 -0000 Received: from opus (p127-31.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.202.159]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA26148 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:17:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003201be92af$873e6d20$9fca52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:16:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Lost & Found - proposal - work in progress Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal. Any obvious holes? Ole ¤¤¤ The Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look this number up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack of the Finding Player. +-------+--------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Qualities | +----------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Key | | | 2 | Zone 1 Pass | | | 3-5 | Spectacles | | | 6-9 | Money Belt | Empty, of course | | 10-18 | Umbrella | | | 19-30 | * | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 31-40 | Scarf | Woolen | | 41-42 | Glove | Right Hand | | 43-45 | Glove | Left Hand | | 46-60 | Green Token | | | 61-80 | Book | Papery | | 81-95 | Nothing | | | 96-99 | Gloves | Pair | | 100 | Gold Token | | +-------+--------------+---------------------------------+ If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue. These are the default contents of the Lost & Found Box: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | Thingy, Widget, Gadget, Thingummy, Yesterday's Paper | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ ¤¤¤ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Apr 29 22:13:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13399 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Apr 1999 05:12:58 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 05:12:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p137-25.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.25]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16278 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:12:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <001901be92c8$0035e880$19cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:10:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Proposal 695 - No Voting For Yourself... [Amendment] {Comment: Is there really a point in allowing a Player to vote for eir own Proposal but penalising eir Kudos for it?...} Depends. Since Kudos are, well, just Kudos, I find the current state fine. If people _really_ want their proposals adopted, they can vote for them. Have I, btw, overlooked the place where Kudos are said to have a function? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Proposal 696 - No Hiding Place (1) [Multiple] I don't like this. I was planning on finding use for:a number of other Adams/Lloyd creations. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri Apr 30 00:21:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28931 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Apr 1999 07:21:18 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 07:21:18 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10705 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:21:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08456 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:21:16 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id IAA17160; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:21:15 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199904300721.IAA17160@u...> Date: 30 Apr 99 08:18:36 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-317-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 30-Apr-99 06:10 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Have I, btw, overlooked the place where Kudos are said to have a function?= It's all described in Section 0.9, being a Nomic attribute rather than anything to do with individual games. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri Apr 30 01:53:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28765 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Apr 1999 08:53:04 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 08:53:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.18] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Apr 1999 08:53:04 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:53:04 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <372bd005.5372765@p...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Response to Voting Comments Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite saddening, these Voting Comments - if someone had said something earlier in the Week, I could have responded and perhaps made a difference. Tsk. For what it's worth, my reaction to the Voting Comments I received via the Speaker:- >690 - Time Passes >"Turns no longer have to last an hour (though they may not last >longer, unless the Player Farkles or pays the Blue Token cost of >extension), and of course most of the superfluous Actions carry their >own token costs. Hence, no point." Turns no longer *have* to last an hour, no, but there are circumstances when such is required (if you really, really need to have Holy Stations open by your next Turn, or whatever); it just seemed neater to have an Action that took time and did nothing, rather than leaving people to perform other Actions (not *all* superfluous Actions cost Tokens) to waste time. Oh well. >"This is a free version of [Game Time+0n00]." Um, no it's not. It doesn't extend your Turn length at all, it just fills up the remainder of it if you want to. >691 - A Special Need >"I would be in favour of this, but (1) it's already been done, and (2) it >mucks up the Loops." >"I don't think this achieves anything over what PaulWay's Proposal from the >other Week managed." It temporarily disables the Loops, yes, but I don't think it's already been done - the current 1.5.0 seems a little too wordy, with the list of Special Moves seeming awkward, and make Special Moves ludicrously powerful (you can Wild to someone's Home Station, Strile to a closed Mornington Crescent, and whatever). >"Why the 1.5.0 rewording?" Simplification - there's really no need to have that huge list any more, if we make a few simple declarations about Special Moves and other Validity issues. Such is the direction to be taking the Ruleset, I feel. I'll repropose one or both of these if I feel they're likely to be well received a second time around - the latter is, I think, quite an important alteration to the Ruleset, and I'd be interesting to read response to these comments (particularly as two Players who said they were in favour of the Greenish Paper suddenly changed their mind and voted against it). Puzzled, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri Apr 30 02:24:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8147 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Apr 1999 09:24:48 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 09:24:48 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Apr 1999 09:24:22 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:29:05 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <372accb3.4522416@p...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 694 - Charge Spiral Updates [Multiple] A Good Thing, as discussed. >Proposal 695 - No Voting For Yourself... [Amendment] > > {Comment: Is there really a point in allowing a Player to vote for >eir own Proposal but penalising eir Kudos for it?...} Well, it allows Players to sacrifice a little Kudos to try and push through a Proposal they really want to see pass; I think it's nice to have the option to push certain Proposals harder than others. This would be an issue if everyone was just voting in favour of their own Proposals and unbalancing things, but as it's not the case, I don't think we've got a problem on our hands. >Proposal 696 - No Hiding Place (1) [Multiple] Hmm. Maybe a good idea, but it seems particularly pleasing to have such a Liff reference, and there has been some strategic use of the thing. Are there any good arguments for killing this one? >Proposal 697 - No Hiding Place (2) [Multiple] I preferred the stealable Money Belt idea from a few Weeks back, myself. Being able to buy *some* form of Token protection seems important. >Proposal 699 - Drivebacks (Enactment, Ruttsborough Special Ruleset >only) A very interesting Shunt variation, and I'd look forward to seeing how this turned out in practice. Why only a Ruttsborough rule, though? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri Apr 30 06:40:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26210 invoked by uid 7770); 30 Apr 1999 13:40:25 -0000 Received: from mc.egroups.com (207.138.41.138) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 13:40:25 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mc.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Apr 1999 13:40:25 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:40:30 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Response to Voting Comments Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why *is* my grammar so crushingly clumsy and unreadable before midday? Tsk. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri Apr 30 22:56:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3191 invoked by uid 7770); 1 May 1999 05:56:27 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 May 1999 05:56:27 -0000 Received: from opus (p432-069.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.199.69]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA24053 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 07:56:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002101be9397$3d7d01e0$45c78e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 07:44:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dunx answered my question: > Have I, btw, overlooked the place where Kudos are said to have a function? It's all described in Section 0.9, being a Nomic attribute rather than anything to do with individual games. ¤¤¤ That's all fine and dandy, but what _useful_ things can I do with my Kudos? They are the scoring unit in the Nomic-part of the game, but that part is unwinnable, and the Kudos aren't carried over into the Mornington-part of the game. So, the way I see it, they are nice, and that's it. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sat May 1 00:14:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22637 invoked by uid 7770); 1 May 1999 07:14:22 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 May 1999 07:14:22 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA06929 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 03:19:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 03:16:58 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >That's all fine and dandy, but what _useful_ things can I do with my Kudos? >They are the scoring unit in the Nomic-part of the game, but that part is >unwinnable, and the Kudos aren't carried over into the Mornington-part of >the game. > >So, the way I see it, they are nice, and that's it. Well, yeah. They're a general measure of success and game involvement, but that's it. So I don't worry _too_ much when I keep forgetting to vote ;) It's just a 'heads up' kinda thing. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat May 1 11:37:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6085 invoked by uid 7770); 1 May 1999 15:30:41 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 May 1999 15:30:41 -0000 Received: from opus (p428-003.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.197.3]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA13137 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 14:59:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003101be93d2$5c55e1a0$03c58e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 14:57:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Lost & Found, 2nd draft. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. If you want it changed before I submit it, just sya so. I'm all ears. Ole ¤¤¤ London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+--------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Qualities | +----------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Key | | | 2 | Zone 1 Pass | | | 3-5 | Spectacles | | | 6-9 | Money Belt | Empty, of course | | 10-18 | Umbrella | | | 19-30 | * | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 31-40 | Scarf | Woolen | | 41-42 | Glove | Right Hand | | 43-45 | Glove | Left Hand | | 46-60 | Green Token | | | 61-80 | Book | Papery | | 81-95 | Nothing | | | 96-99 | Gloves | Pair | | 100 | Gold Token | | +-------+--------------+---------------------------------+ If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the back end and removed from the front end. These are the default contents of the Lost & Found Box: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | Thingy, Widget, Gadget, Thingummy, Yesterday's Paper | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ (the Thingy is in the front and Yesterday's Paper is in the back) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies ¤¤¤ Special issues: 42 minutes? It more or less had to be done. Lost? In the current rules, nothing is 'Lost'.... But that might come. The found items? Most are useless now, but that can be changed if we want it. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat May 1 18:24:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28082 invoked by uid 7770); 2 May 1999 00:56:35 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 May 1999 00:56:35 -0000 Received: from modem-71.cornucopia.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.148.199] helo=franz-liszt) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10dkYc-0002qD-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 2 May 1999 01:56:35 +0100 Message-ID: <008a01be9437$b4146460$c794883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 02:02:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Lost & Found, 2nd draft. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. Personally, I think the game already has so many objects and actions that adding in so many more, all in one go, with no definition of what the objects actually *do*, is just a bit much for my tastes. I like the basic idea, though... Last time I can remember so many objects being added in one single proposal, with nothing much for them to do, was the proposal which introduced Edible Possessions into the game: at least there, that was fixable by a single proposal about the effects of eating food (the temporary LV boost) which seems to have become rather popular these days. A single proposal that gives functions to all Ole's new objects would probably not be so easy to come by, as all the objects suggested - Spectacles, Umbrella, Gloves, Scarf, Book, Widget, Thingummy, Yesterday's Paper etc - do not seem to have anything like as much in common as in the "Edibility" instance, and would all have to be defined and given functions separately. {***STOP PRESS - MAD IDEA ALERT*** See the last few lines of this post below - I just had the idea while writing this post, and have sent off the proposal for inclusion next week... I still haven't had ideas for Yesterday's Paper or a Book yet, so these have not been included, you will have to think something up yourself if you want to have them included in Lost Property. Likewise "Thingummy" etc.} To say that the new items "add colour to the game" would not of itself, IMHO, be sufficient reason. Now if there were some method to adding a couple of new objects (like a new class of object - see below, some of your choices have inspired me to send in a Proposal covering glasses, gloves, specs etc...) the rest of the Lost Property box could be filled up with more of the already-existing Possessions. For your suggested random (to be filled up) slots, I'd leave them all empty and not bother with the "Thingy, Widget, Gadget, Thingummy" stuff, leaving ways of losing Possessions to be defined later. (Perhaps as a result of an amendment to the Shunting or Blonking...) My suggestions for the possible random things you could get from the Lost Property Office are... 5 slots for objects that Players have Lost Nothing (the largest chance.) 2 Plastic Tokens of the same (random) type 1 Metallic Token of random type (you might be unlucky and get only 1 Bronze for the two you spent to find it) 1 Musical Possession (random) Parcel, with named Delivery Station (this would require a rewrite of the Parcel rule, allowing each Parcel to have its own separate delivery station: delivering it gets the current reward.) Suspect Package - to be dropped immediately as if the Player had paid the token cost and performed the Action of dropping the Package. Velocity Bomb (well, there has to be *some* risk in picking up unidentified packages...) Hat (any of the 7 types, cannot be claimed if the Player already has a Hat of the same type) Gloves (one or two) Specs etc. etc... And the list you put up has just given me the crazy idea of sending a separate Proposal (this week) to define "Garment" Possessions, and this classification to be added to Hats and the new possessions (Gloves, Spectacles etc. - maybe add Overcoat to this list, I know I've lost at least three on various tube systems in my lifetime, so maybe that could turn up in Lost Property some day) and the effects of Wearing them. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat May 1 20:08:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13756 invoked by uid 7770); 2 May 1999 03:08:01 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 May 1999 03:08:01 -0000 Received: from opus (p117-17.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.198.17]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA14076; Sun, 2 May 1999 05:07:58 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <010901be9448$df337440$11c652c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Duncan Ellis (Dunx)" Cc: "Mornington" Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 04:56:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. The %%%-delimited text ¤¤¤ London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 2-3 | Spectacles | Garment | | 4-8 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 9-13 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 14-20 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 21-22 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 23 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 24 | Casiotone | Musical | | 25 | Drum | Musical | | 26 | Guitar | Musical | | 27 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 28 | Saxophone | Musical | | 29 | Violin | Musical | | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | | 32 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 33 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 34 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 35 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 36 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 37 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 38 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 39 | Velocity Bomb | | | 40-41 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 42-45 | Book | Papery | | 46-49 | § | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 50-93 | Nothing | | | 94 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 95 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 96 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 97 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 98 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 99 | Token | 1 Silver | | 100 | Token | 1 Gold | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the back end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves. %%% ¤¤¤ I don't see a great danger in having undefined things floating around. If a possession is undefined, the possessing Player will either discard it (always an option), or make a proposal outlining the works of the possession. We don't have a way of Losing things, yet. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sat May 1 21:52:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30626 invoked by uid 7770); 2 May 1999 04:52:31 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 May 1999 04:52:31 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA01995 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 00:57:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:55:08 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks interesting, but currently, a 42-minute post-move action with only barely better than a fifty percent shot of getting anything at all, and about 1 in four of getting anything that has a _use_, it's not something I would go out of my way for. I would only use it if I was stuck at Baker Street, and for some reason could only think of ten minutes worth of actions to fill up my turn. Or fifteen, if I want to drop a token somewhere. And if that's my situation, I'm going to Pass, and get my two blue tokens instead, because that's a sure thing. An action that takes almost your whole turn to use, and only at a specific station, needs to have a pretty significant guarantee of a reward if it's going to get used at all. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 2 05:47:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6351 invoked by uid 7770); 2 May 1999 12:47:46 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 May 1999 12:47:46 -0000 Received: from opus (p134-15.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.204.79]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA06382 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 14:47:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <004901be9499$de19ea20$18cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:38:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RiffRaff wrote: :Looks interesting, but currently, a 42-minute post-move action with only :barely better than a fifty percent shot of getting anything at all, and :about 1 in four of getting anything that has a _use_, it's not something I :would go out of my way for. I would only use it if I was stuck at Baker :Street, and for some reason could only think of ten minutes worth of :actions to fill up my turn. Or fifteen, if I want to drop a token :somewhere. And if that's my situation, I'm going to Pass, and get my two :blue tokens instead, because that's a sure thing. : :An action that takes almost your whole turn to use, and only at a specific :station, needs to have a pretty significant guarantee of a reward if it's :going to get used at all. : I guess you are right. But I don't think all Actions need be high-powered. Farkling, for one, has just been downgraded. If we want a more powerful version of Finding, we can fiddle a bit with some of the parameters. And, almost seriously, we _need_ a 42-minute Action. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Mon May 3 11:45:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32728 invoked by uid 7770); 3 May 1999 18:45:35 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 May 1999 18:45:35 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10eNid-0001R9-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 3 May 1999 18:45:31 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:43:50 GMT Message-ID: <372fee63.2307774@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 2 Ruleset Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: The updates from the end of Week 2 have finally been completed. At least = they've been done before Week 3 draws to a close... Anyway, a few Points of Order were implemented, mostly raised by the = Speaker: 1. formatting - I'm really, really glad I didn't start these ruleset edits on Thursday night: they've taken in excess of three hours. The main reason this was so time consuming has been formatting - in order to maintain a coherent form to the Ruleset, it's important to ensure that all the Rules have the same layout. This isn't intended as a personal attack on anyone, but=20 reformatting text is a ludicrously slow and tedious job which I would really rather not do. I would appreciate it in the future if Proposers could try to mirror the structure of the existing Ruleset, particularly in their enactments, since it's much easier for the original author to do this on each of eir own Proposals than for the Speaker to have a bulk job to do in one go. As I say, I don't mean to offend anyone but this has been a pretty harrowing set of ruleset updates what with one thing and another, and not really the ideal way to spend a Bank Holiday Monday afternoon. 2. various odd renamings in the Special Ruleset reworking (eg removing the "Metro" from the Brighton & Hove "Metro" Guidebook) have been reversed. 3. Proposal 687 added a Rule to Ruttsborough denying the influence of 1.10.0. As it was worded, this lifted the requirement of co- location of an offensive Player with eir victim which the rest of that Rule makes reasonably clear was not the intent. I've added a couple of words to address this. 4. Proposal 688 mentions adding a Toff Clamp possession - there is no place where allPossessions are recorded so this has not been implemented. The closest thing is The Emporium (Rule 1.4.18), but that is a list of purchasable Possessions. 5. Jonathan's PoO - as I mentioned, Jonathan has been persistent in pointing out an error in the Ruleset which I've been slack in addressing: his point was that the Quadrants for many of the Finsbury Option Stations were wrong (cut and paste inheritance, I'm afraid) and that two other Stations were missing entirely. These points have now been addressed. Further thanks to Jonathan for mentioning this again after I didn't do anything with his original message. Obviously, anyone unhappy with these Points should feel free to complain to the usual address. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 3 13:10:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16145 invoked by uid 7770); 3 May 1999 20:10:16 -0000 Received: from mail10.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.214) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 May 1999 20:10:16 -0000 Received: from modem-31.praseodymium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.29.31] helo=franz-liszt) by mail10.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10eP2d-0001P0-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:10:15 +0100 Message-ID: <001001be95a2$151e4b20$1f1d883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:17:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 2 Ruleset Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote:... >2. various odd renamings in the Special Ruleset reworking (eg removing the "Metro" from the Brighton & Hove "Metro" Guidebook) have been reversed. I can only say: Whoops. Oh, and *frume*... >3. Proposal 687 added a Rule to Ruttsborough denying the influence of 1.10.0. As it was worded, this lifted the requirement of co- location of an offensive Player with eir victim which the rest of that Rule makes reasonably clear was not the intent. I've added a couple of words to address this. And Whoops again. The desired effect, as I have no doubt that Dunx has guessed, is that the Rutts ruleset removes the necessity that a player-targetting action be the *first* Post-Move Action: so any number of such actions can be performed in one turn in the Rutts ruleset, including for instance clamping one player, straddling to a new location and shunting another player from there... (now we know why the bastard was so fond of Dollis Hill and other Loops - it gets all the players together to be smashed in one go.) Thanks for clearing this up. I believe that most of the individual rules on each player-targetting action refer to having to share a Station and Line anyway, so even if this restriction is removed by ignoring 1.10.0 it might still be there from (for instance) Rule 1.10.1 - which is *not* ignored. Thanks for clearing it up anyway. >4. Proposal 688 mentions adding a Toff Clamp possession - there is no place where all Possessions are recorded so this has not been implemented. The closest thing is The Emporium (Rule 1.4.18), but that is a list of purchasable Possessions. I gave a description of the Toff Clamp Possession simply because it was called into existence by the act of Toffing. It is indeed, like all other Clamps, Indestructable and has AFAIK no other attributes. As long as this is made clear somewhere within the added Rule, there shouldn't be a problem. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 3 16:43:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3223 invoked by uid 7770); 3 May 1999 23:43:18 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 May 1999 23:43:18 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA08381; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:43:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma008290; Tue, 4 May 99 09:42:53 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:42:51 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:42:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: A moment's patience... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen and others, Just a quick apology for not posting moves sooner - work has been fairly busy and in addition I've had a mole and a lipoma (fatty cancer) removed which gave me a bit of pain. I'll be hoping to post moves today. Thanks for your indulgence, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 3 16:52:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7721 invoked by uid 7770); 3 May 1999 23:52:20 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 May 1999 23:52:20 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA12794; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:52:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012682; Tue, 4 May 99 09:51:58 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:51:56 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:51:48 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 2, Week 3 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, 1 May 1999 15:44, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > That's all fine and dandy, but what _useful_ things can I do with my > Kudos? > They are the scoring unit in the Nomic-part of the game, but that part is > unwinnable, and the Kudos aren't carried over into the Mornington-part of > the game. Their name is well given - you get Kudos for doing things which further the game. (If you're not aware, 'kudos' is defined as the intangible credit received for doing something worthy in someone else's eyes). It's a good way of measuring how you're fitting in with everyone - if you do everything you're required to and submit proposals that people think are good then you get Kudos. If you propose unpopular proposals, vote for your own and ignore your other duties then you don't get any. You get half your previous week's Kudos to start with so that your previous actions affect your current position. I don't know if there's a theoretical limit to a person's Kudos, but I'd say that even with winning all the awards, proposing the maximum, and getting your voting right and maybe judging an EP or two _every_week_, you'd still max out at around 100 or so. > So, the way I see it, they are nice, and that's it. Exactly right. It's a nice way to keep track of who's in line with the current MN ideal, but apart from that it means little. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 3 20:23:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29002 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 03:23:27 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 03:23:27 -0000 Received: from opus (p137-38.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.38]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA24450; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:23:24 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00a801be95dd$5b3d2f00$26cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Duncan Ellis (Dunx)" , "Mornington" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:21:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Update of Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. It consists of two proposed new rules and three insertions in tables. The %%%-delimited text takes care of a couple of potential loose ends. ¤¤¤ Rule 1.7.x - Lost & Found London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 2 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 3 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 4-11 | § | Caught Picking Rags# | | 12-13 | Spectacles | Garment | | 14-18 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 19 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 20-21 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 22 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 23 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 24 | Casiotone | Musical | | 25 | Drum | Musical | | 26 | Guitar | Musical | | 27 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 28 | Saxophone | Musical | | 29 | Violin | Musical | | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | | 32 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 33 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 34 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 35 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 36 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 37 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 38 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 39 | Velocity Bomb | | | 40-41 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 42 | Book | Papery | | 43-44 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 45 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 46-49 | § | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 50-93 | Nothing | | | 94 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 95 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 96 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 97 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 98 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 99 | Token | 1 Silver | | 100 | Token | 1 Gold | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir next Turn. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the rear end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rule 1.4.x - Read All About It! A Newspaper is a Papery posession that costs 1 Bronze. When a Player purchases a Newspaper, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like " Paper" in the Luggage - for instance, an Newspaper purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday Paper". Newspapers that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Today's, and Newspapers that have a different day are said to be Yesterday's. While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper upon performing that Action. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Piano | 9 Br | Musical, Too Big! | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ [as bottom item] * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves (thus changing the roll of 22 to be 22-23). %%% ¤¤¤ I don't see a great danger in having undefined things floating around. If a possession is undefined, the possessing Player will either discard it (always an option), or make a proposal outlining the works of the possession. We don't have a way of Losing things, yet. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 3 20:32:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1162 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 03:32:41 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 03:32:41 -0000 Received: from opus (p137-38.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.38]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA27843; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:32:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00c001be95de$a5238780$26cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Duncan Ellis (Dunx)" , "Mornington" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:30:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Update of Proposal (better formatted, I hope) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. It consists of two proposed new rules and three insertions in tables. The %%%-delimited text takes care of a couple of potential loose ends. ¤¤¤ Rule 1.7.x - Lost & Found London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 2 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 3 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 4-11 | § | Caught Picking Rags# | | 12-13 | Spectacles | Garment | | 14-18 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 19 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 20-21 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 22 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 23 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 24 | Casiotone | Musical | | 25 | Drum | Musical | | 26 | Guitar | Musical | | 27 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 28 | Saxophone | Musical | | 29 | Violin | Musical | | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | | 32 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 33 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 34 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 35 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 36 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 37 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 38 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 39 | Velocity Bomb | | | 40-41 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 42 | Book | Papery | | 43-44 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 45 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 46-49 | § | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 50-93 | Nothing | | | 94 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 95 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 96 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 97 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 98 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 99 | Token | 1 Silver | | 100 | Token | 1 Gold | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir next Turn. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the rear end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rule 1.4.x - Read All About It! A Newspaper is a Papery posession that costs 1 Bronze. When a Player purchases a Newspaper, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like " Paper" in the Luggage - for instance, an Newspaper purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday Paper". Newspapers that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Today's, and Newspapers that have a different day are said to be Yesterday's. While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper upon performing that Action. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Piano | 9 Br | Musical, Too Big! | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ [as bottom item] * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves (thus changing the roll of 22 to be 22-23). %%% ¤¤¤ I don't see a great danger in having undefined things floating around. If a possession is undefined, the possessing Player will either discard it (always an option), or make a proposal outlining the works of the possession. We don't have a way of Losing things, yet. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 4 03:37:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Duplicate: Duplicate Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1931 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 03:34:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 03:34:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p137-38.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.38]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA28852; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:34:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00c701be95de$d7fb46c0$26cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Duncan Ellis (Dunx)" , "Mornington" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:33:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Update of Proposal (better formatted, I hope) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ¤¤¤-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. It consists of two proposed new rules and three insertions in tables. The %%%-delimited text takes care of a couple of potential loose ends. ¤¤¤ Rule 1.7.x - Lost & Found London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 2 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 3 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 4-11 | § | Caught Picking Rags# | | 12-13 | Spectacles | Garment | | 14-18 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 19 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 20-21 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 22 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 23 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 24 | Casiotone | Musical | | 25 | Drum | Musical | | 26 | Guitar | Musical | | 27 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 28 | Saxophone | Musical | | 29 | Violin | Musical | | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | | 32 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 33 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 34 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 35 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 36 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 37 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 38 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 39 | Velocity Bomb | | | 40-41 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 42 | Book | Papery | | 43-44 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 45 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 46-49 | § | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 50-93 | Nothing | | | 94 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 95 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 96 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 97 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 98 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 99 | Token | 1 Silver | | 100 | Token | 1 Gold | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir next Turn. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the rear end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rule 1.4.x - Read All About It! A Newspaper is a Papery posession that costs 1 Bronze. When a Player purchases a Newspaper, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like " Paper" in the Luggage - for instance, an Newspaper purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday Paper". Newspapers that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Today's, and Newspapers that have a different day are said to be Yesterday's. While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper upon performing that Action. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Piano | 9 Br | Musical, Too Big! | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ [as bottom item] * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves (thus changing the roll of 22 to be 22-23). %%% ¤¤¤ I don't see a great danger in having undefined things floating around. If a possession is undefined, the possessing Player will either discard it (always an option), or make a proposal outlining the works of the possession. We don't have a way of Losing things, yet. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 4 06:47:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17717 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 13:47:25 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 13:47:25 -0000 Received: from opus (p425-170.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.195.170]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA06842 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:46:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <03f701be9634$75f970e0$26cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:57:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Ooops! (Update of Proposal (better formatted, I hope)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the double-posting. Something happened while I was sending. Not quite sure what it was. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 4 13:58:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19612 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 20:58:35 -0000 Received: from romeo.ic.ac.uk (155.198.5.9) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 20:58:35 -0000 Received: from oban.cc.ic.ac.uk [155.198.5.28] by romeo.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 10emGw-00053p-00; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:58:34 +0100 Received: from madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.2]) by oban.cc.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for l-nomic-d@egroups.com id 10emGw-0006LZ-00; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:58:34 +0100 Received: from vector.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.52] helo=vector) by madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 10emGv-0000LK-00; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:58:33 +0100 From: "Snow" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:58:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: Subject: MN: Re: Kudos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't know if there's a theoretical limit to a person's Kudos, but I'd > say that even with winning all the awards, proposing the maximum, and > getting your voting right and maybe judging an EP or two _every_week_, > you'd still max out at around 100 or so. The maximum theoretical limit to a person's Kudos is 12p+42 where p is the number of active players. Assuming: 1) All Paulway's stuff above except the EP (Emergency Proposal???) bit. I can find no reference to gaining Kudos through judging an Emergency Proposal (indeed the nomic part of the Ruleset (0.0.0-1.0.0) has no reference to what a judge is, what e might do (other than "judging") nor how e might be elected/selected), so I have ignored this. 2) No Kudos gifts for a finite time in the past that would make the player's Kudos exceed 12p+42 (see Note). 3) The number of active players is static. 4) The first part of the first sentence of Rule 0.4.3 means "the maximum number of proposals a player may make in one week is 5", rather than "the maximum number of proposals in one week is 5" and that at least one other proposal is voted on. 6)The phrase "Voting FOR or AGAINST all Proposals besides eir own" means "voting for all proposals besides eir own", rather than "voting FOR for all proposals besides eir own or voting AGAINST for all proposals besides eir own". [Having thought about this it doesn't make any difference either way, but it's a weird way to say it anyway.] 7) All active players vote FOR for all of the player's proposals. 8) When a player's Kudos is halved fractional parts are discarded ie rounding-down rather than rounding-up. 9) No rule changes effecting Kudos for a finite time in the past and no rule changes enabling infinite Kudos at any time in the past. 10) I've not made a mistake. Note: Using eir own steam a person can achieve only 12p+41, but can maintain 12p+42 assuming e already has it eg. via a gift. I'll get my coat..... Snow -Errors and Ommisions Expected ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 4 15:11:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31601 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 22:11:48 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 22:11:48 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10enPl-000EDe-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 May 1999 22:11:45 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:10:08 GMT Message-ID: <37316bfc.3159908@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 4 - Voting Results for Week 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 694 Charge Spiral Updates 3 1 - 3 Passes 695 No Voting For Yourself - 1 3 3 Fails 696 No Hiding Place (1) - 1 3 3 Fails 697 No Hiding Place (2) - 1 3 3 Fails 698 Shockwaves! 3 1 - 3 Passes 699 Drivebacks 3 1 - 3 Passes 700 Ever Decreasing Circles 4 - - 3 Passes 701 If Your Mansion House... 3 1 - 3 Passes 702 Bring Back Spanging 3 1 - 3 Passes 703 Clamp-Tampering 4 - - 3 Passes 704 Run and Hyde 3 1 - 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 694 (Ole) - FOR - - FOR FOR - PAS - = -=20 695 (Jonathan) - AGA - - PAS AGA - AGA - = -=20 696 (Jonathan) - AGA - - PAS AGA - AGA - = -=20 697 (Jonathan) - AGA - - PAS AGA - AGA - = -=20 698 (Jonathan) - FOR - - PAS FOR - FOR - = -=20 699 (Jonathan) - FOR - - PAS FOR - FOR - = -=20 700 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 701 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 702 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 703 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR FOR - FOR - = -=20 704 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR - = -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 16 4 0 39 39 16 5 18 = 8 Halved: 8 2 19 19 2 9 = 4 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +6 +17 +3 +0 = +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 I -9 -1 I -0 -0 = -0 Decisiveness: n +3 +0 n +3 +3 n +3 +0 = +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 a -0 -6 a 0 -0 = -0 c c c EP FOR Votes: t +0 +0 t +0 +0 t 0 +0 = +0 EP AGA Votes: i -0 -0 i -0 +0 i 0 -0 = -0 Finger/Pulse: v +5 +0 v +5 +5 v +5 +0 = +0 e e e Award Ceremony: +3 +0 +0 +7 0 +0 = +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +11 +0 +0 +5 +25 +11 +0 = +0 Final Kudos: 11 19 2 0 24 44 16 13 9 = 4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul = Riff -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [*] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (Ever Decreasing Circles): +3 CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - Kevan (If Your Mansion House...): +4 Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 4 15:11:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31585 invoked by uid 7770); 4 May 1999 22:11:46 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 May 1999 22:11:45 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10enPd-000EDe-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 May 1999 22:11:37 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:10:00 GMT Message-ID: <37306a01.2653323@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Four -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 705 - The Emperor's New Clothes... [Enactment] *New Rule: The Emperor's New Clothes If a Player has a "Garment" Possession in eir Luggage Rack, e may perform the Action of [Wearing ]. Possessions being Worn are indicated by surrounding their names with *asterisks*. A Worn Possession may be removed by the Action of [Removing ]. A Garment that is being Worn cannot be removed from its owner by any other Player by means of any "targetting" Action (as defined in Section 1.10.) Garments that are being worn have the following properties: Hat (Silly) The player may Farkle on eir turn. Hat (Hard) The player may move along Construction Lines. Hat (any other) If the player ends eir (non-Passed) Move at a Station of the same type as the Hat being worn, e may collect 1 Blue Token provided that e has not collected that Hat in the same Turn. (It should be noted that only one Hat can be worn by any one Player at one time: if the player wishes to wear another, the first must be removed.) Overcoat - The Player has access to a Nantucket and may perform the [Reshuffling] Action. Only one may be worn at any one time. Spectacles - If the Player performs an Action that targets another Player (i.e. one from Section 1.10) e may affect a Player in an adjacent station (instead of the normal stipulation that the Player must be at the same location), but eir maximum LV is one less than normal (9 rather than 10 under normal circumstances.) Spectacles may not be worn by a Player wearing the Hyde Mask. {Comment: you can target your opponents better if you can see better at closer distances - but if so, they make you shortsighted, so you can't see so far, hence the restriction on LV as you can't see so well where you're going.} {Note to Speaker: the last phrase should be altered to "under the influence of the Hyde Transformation" if this week's proposal to change the Transformation to a Mask fails. Please remove this note from the Proposal when published.} Gloves: A player wearing a pair of Gloves may pick up two Tokens from any Stack in the station that e finishes eir Move at (but only one from those e passes over.) However, a player wearing Gloves may not perform the "Reshuffling" Action. If, for some reason, the Player wears only one Glove ("L"eft or "R"ight) there is no effect: two must be worn for any effects. *New Possessions (all to be bought from the Emporium:) Overcoat - 6 Bronze. Garment. {Comment: a large cost for the one item which may be worn without any drawbacks.} Gloves - 3 Bronze for a pair. Small, Garments. {Comment: Ole's Lost Property box, if implemented, may allow single Gloves to be found, but they can only be bought in pairs from the Emporium.} Spectacles - 4 Bronze. Small, Garment. {Comment: Well, I know "Garment" isn't really appropriate for spectacles, but it's the best description I could think of that would lump it in with all other wearable possessions... and the cost may seem high, but IMHO it's appropriate for something that makes it that much easier to target and shunt other players... } *Add "Garment" to the description of all Hats as Possessions. *New Actions: [Wearing ] and [Removing ], both 15-minute Post-Move. *Repeal Rule 1.4.15 "Nantucket" if it has not already been repealed, replace it with the following: *New Rule: You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two... Any player possessing an Overcoat is considered to possess a Nantucket ("The secret pocket which eats your train ticket" - D.Adams/J.Lloyd). Up to four Small Possessions may be stored therein - they are denoted by (brackets) surrounding them. Possessions in a Nantucket may not be manipulated in any way by any player, with one exception: the owner of a Nantucket may play the "Reshuffling" Action once per Turn, provided e is wearing eir Overcoat. This Action allows the Player to move any or all of eir Small Possessions into and out of eir Nantucket as e sees fit, subject to any restrictions on the number of objects that may be Nantucketed. If a Player loses eir Overcoat, any Nantucketed Possessions are lost as well. Any possessions in a Nantucket are not considered to be carried by the Player in question unless the Rule checking such possession specifically refers to Nantucketed possessions: but they are still considered to exist in the game. {Comment: Pockets aren't bottomless, hence the suggested limit of four small possessions therein... and losing an Overcoat is not likely considering that it can't be stolen by a Shunt if being worn, and there is no reason to take it off once worn.} {Further comment: I thought of this following Ole's publication of his Lost Property proposal... just as the "Eating" action was given to the Food possessions, I thought that any new items of clothing needed a "Wearing" action...} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 706 - Timeout On The Grand Scale [Enactment] Any player who does not play a single move in any particular Game for a period of two calendar months should be considered to have Resigned from that Game and deleted from the relevant GSD, along with all eir Tokens and Possessions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 707 - You Have 10 Minutes To Clear This Building... [Amendment] *Amend the title of what is currently Rule 1.7.30 to the title above. *Amend "Any Player" to "Any Player who is fewer than stations away, where is that Player's LV" in the restrictions on detonating the Package: and change the Action to Post-Move (it is currently Neutral.) Add the following text to the Rule: "A Player may perform the Action of [Defusing Package] provided that e is situated at the same location as a Suspect Package and has not placed a Suspect Package emself during eir last three Turns. Eir LV is set to zero upon performing this action, and the Package is removed from the game." New Action: [Defusing Package] 20-minute Post-Move, reward of 1 Silver Token. {Comment: A chance to get rid of suspect packages and earn the thanks of the grateful public - but don't stray too close too soon...} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 708 - Blocks, Impediments and Gaps [Multiple] *Rename Section 1.9 "Blocks and Impediments" *Renumber the Bulkheading rule (1.7.26) into Section 1.9 *Add to Rule 1.11.3: "If an Action is performed that should Lightly Damage a Station which is already Lightly Damaged, that Station immediately becomes Heavily Damaged." {Comment: Suppose a Fire were spotted at a Station that is already Damaged...} *Renumber the Power Failure rule (1.7.8) into Section 1.9. *Renumber the Maelberg rule (1.7.17) into Section 1.9. *Renumber the Kafka Sinkhole rule (1.14.5) into Section 1.9, and add "Kafka Sinkholes" to the list of "Blocks, Impediments and Gaps" in rule 1.5.0. *Renumber the Gapminding Rule (1.7.7) into Section 1.8 "States of Play" and add the following: "If the Gap is being Minded, this shall be marked on the GSD by the presence of the word "Gap". {Comment: It's a state of play, just like Bridges Up or Down, and deserves its place on the GSD - considering the number of times I saw Game 7 buzzed for "Mind The Gap" offences when we were playing that...} *Amend Rule 1.5.0 to take account of all these changes of Rule numbering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 709 - *Boing* (Chalk Farm Ruleset) [Enactment] If a Shunt is performed, the Shunting Player may elect to rebound off the Shunted Player by a distance of up to stations, where is the Shunting Player's LV. The distance that the Shunted Player travels is reduced correspondingly, so the overall effect of the Shunt is as follows: (1) The Shunted and Shunting Players must finish the Shunt on the same Line as each other. (2) They must be exactly Stations apart, and the Station where the Shunt actually took place is occupied by one of the Players or is between the two. (3) The Shunted Player does not travel along the same Line in the opposite Line Direction to that which the Shunting Player arrived. (4) Blocks, impediments or closures which would restrict the destination Station of either Player after the Shunt are ignored. Example: Rushton: Bank (CN) [Blocking Liverpool Street] Garden: (with LV of 8) Bank (CN) [Shunting Rushton to Leyton, rebounding to Holborn] {Comment: Just another one of my mad ideas, but a bit strange, so I thought it was worth while trying this one out in a variant before thinking of moving it to the vanilla ruleset.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 710 - Token Table Change [Amendment] I propose changing this entry in the Token Collection Table: +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly five | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ to this: +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through five or more | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] I want to walk in the night! In "Rule 1.13.1 - The Richard Whiteley Experience", replace: Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. with Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. An exception to this 'skip' is=20 the Action [Walking]. [Walking] can occur between 0000 and 0500. Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would end at Thursday 0020. The next non-[Walking] Action could not begin until 0500. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] The ^^^-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. It consists of two proposed new rules and three insertions in tables. The %%%-delimited text takes care of a couple of potential loose ends. ^^^ Rule 1.7.x - Lost & Found London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir = Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 2 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 3 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 4-11 | | Caught Picking Rags# | | 12-13 | Spectacles | Garment | | 14-18 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 19 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 20-21 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 22 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 23 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 24 | Casiotone | Musical | | 25 | Drum | Musical | | 26 | Guitar | Musical | | 27 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 28 | Saxophone | Musical | | 29 | Violin | Musical | | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | | 32 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 33 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 34 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 35 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 36 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 37 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 38 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 39 | Velocity Bomb | | | 40-41 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 42 | Book | Papery | | 43-44 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 45 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 46-49 | | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 50-93 | Nothing | | | 94 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 95 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 96 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 97 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 98 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 99 | Token | 1 Silver | | 100 | Token | 1 Gold | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir next Turn. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on = the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the rear end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rule 1.4.x - Read All About It! A Newspaper is a Papery posession that costs 1 Bronze Token. When a Player purchases a Newspaper, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like "'s Paper" in the Luggage - for instance, an Newspaper purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday's Paper". Newspapers that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Today's, and Newspapers that have a different day are said to be Yesterday's. While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays = nothing to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper upon performing that Action. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Piano | 9 Br | Musical, Too Big! | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ [as bottom item] * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the = table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the = roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves (thus changing the roll of 22 to be 22-23). %%% ^^^ I don't see a great danger in having undefined things floating around. If= a possession is undefined, the possessing Player will either discard it (always an option), or make a proposal outlining the works of the possession. We don't have a way of Losing things, yet. { Speaker's Comment: Apologies to the Proposer, but I've had to = substitute alternative values for some of the special characters e used in this Proposal. I honestly don't know what ISO character set encoding I'm = working to here, but I was getting some odd hex strings turning up (=3DA4 and = =3DA7). I suppose that's what I get for reading in MIME but working in ASCII... } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 713 - Ever-Rolling Stream [Multiple] 1. Half the Clock [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.13.1 (The Richard Whiteley = Experience) to:- Each Player's Turn has a default maximum duration of one hour. = Whenever a Player performs an Action or makes a Move, Game Time is advanced by the duration of that Action or Move. If this should take the duration of eir Turn so far beyond its maximum duration, the Turn becomes Illegal. { A very, very necessary clarification - that the clock ticks as your = Turn progresses; if a Closed Station opens in half an hour and you wish to Move there, it's possible to do things for thirty minutes then Move legally. Current wordings are at best vague and at worst counter- intuitive, on this score. } 2. Dry-Marker Pens from Hell [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.13.3 (Carol Vorderman's Revenge) to:- Any Action or the movement of the Player's Piece shall have a duration= of ten minutes of Game Time unless otherwise specified. Payment of Token forfeits and receipt of Token bonuses shall be considered = instantaneous, that is having no duration. A Move of Pass or Timeout shall similarly have no duration. { Trimming superfluity. } 3. Long Lunch [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Duration: +0x00] Neut 1.7.x Varies = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Duration: +0x00]" to extend the length of eir Turn - upon performing this Action, eir Turn's duration is increased by 'x' hours. { As it stands, "[Game Time: +0x00]" puts the clock forward *and* extends your Turn - if you do a two-hour one at noon, the clock goes forward to two o'clock, and you can then perform an extra two hours of Actions, leaving the clock at 4pm. Not good. } 4. Right Away [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.13.2 (Get a Move On) and remove the relevant Action from = the Ruleset. { I did consider leaving the "[Game Time: +0x00]" Action in, to allow Players to wind the clock forward without taking it as part of their Turn, but = it seemed a bit too superfluous. Particularly when there was that handy little "[Waiting]" Action I came up with last Week - you can just extend the duration of your Turn and wait for the whole of it, if you must... The Waiting Proposal failed for being badly explained, anyway. There = now follows a reproposal of it. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 714 - Time Again [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Waiting] Neut 1.7.x Varies = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Waiting]" to spend part of their Turn merely watching time pass - the duration of this Action can be = any period the Actioning Player wishes, between five minutes and one week. This Action may be performed any number of times in a Turn. { This lets Players pad out their Turns if they haven't used the entirety of their duration - it doesn't extend the Turn at all, it merely uses up any amount of that which remains. Better than the GSDs getting spammed up with pointless time-wasting actions, I feel. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 715 - A Pressing Special Need [Multiple] { Blathered about on the mailing list - this simplifies the Move Legality business a *lot*, not to mention fixing some flaws in the current implementation. Proposed last Week as a green paper and given thumbs = up, only to die at the polling station in a flurry of tardy feedback. Argue= it on the mailing list if you've any objections to any of this, please. } 1. The Soul of Wit [Amendment] Move the last paragraph of Rule 1.5.0 (Valid Moves) to Rule 1.5.1 (Keep = the Piece), and reword Rule 1.5.0 to:- "The following Moves are possible in the Game of Mornington Crescent: * The name of any Station on the Map * The word "Pass" * The word "Timeout" All Moves are Valid by default, unless a Rule or combination of Rules declares them to be Invalid. A Move of "Pass" or "Timeout", however, = is *always* Valid. Certain events permit Players to make Special Moves to a given destination - these Moves do not pass through Stations, but may still= be made Invalid by other Rules. In addition, a Player's LV is reduced to zero after making a Special Move. (When a Rule says that something 'permits a Special Move', this means that it permits the current Player to make a Special Move during the current Turn.)" 2. Getting There [Enactment, as 1.6.2] When a Player makes a Move to a Station, that Station must be at a distance of 'x' Stations, where 'x' is eir Line Velocity - if it is closer or further, e cannot get there at that speed, and such a Move = is Invalid. When making a Special Move, however, an incorrect Line Velocity will = not make a Move Invalid. 3. Golly [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.16 (Playing with Food), replace the Marmalade Sandwich's = special effect with:- When a Player performs the Action "[Eating Marmalade Sandwich]", a Special Move to Paddington is permitted. 4. Right of Way [Amendment] Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) to:- A Player may perform the pre-Move Action of "[Walking]" to permit a Special Move to any Station within Walking Distance. 5. Strile, Friend, Strile [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.12 (Basic Striles) to:- If a Player's Line Velocity is six or more, e may perform a Strile via the pre-Move Action of "[Striling]"; this permits em to make a Special Move to any Strilable Station. A Station is said to be Strilable if it has a Token Stack, and if that Token Stack is identical to the Stack at the Player's current Piece location. 6. Stubthumper [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.33 (Stubbery) to:- If a Player owns the Ticket Stub for the Station eir Piece is situated at, e may perform the pre-Move Action "[Stub Link]" - this permits em to make a Special Move to any other Station which e has a Ticket Stub for. 7. Of Borneo [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.11.1 (Born to be Wild) to:- A Player may perform the Action of "[Wild]" to permit a Special Move = to any Wild Station. 8. Paintball's Going Home [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.12.4 (Going Home) to:- A Player may performs the pre-Move Action of "[Home]" or "[Home: ]"; both of these permit a Special Move to eir Home Station. 9. Mustn't... Repeal... [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.2.1 (Terminal Velocity) to:- If, at the start of eir Turn before any other Player Actions a Player has an LV of 10 or more, and e does not (and is not forced to by any other Rule) reduce it below 10 before eir Move, e may make a Special Move to any Terminus which e shares a Line with, provided that = reaching it would not involve a change of Line Direction (this option is in addition to the standard Moves available through eir natural LV-dependent Piece Movement and any Special Moves available). 10. Just Drop Me At The End Of The Road [Amendment] Reword Rule 2.3.2 (Home Isn't Where The Start Is)) to:- When a Player performs the "[Home:]" Action, it permits a Special Move= to any Station which shares a Quadrant and Line with that Player's Home Station. { MC exception no longer required, since you can't Special Move to a = Closed Station. } 11. Whose Line Is It Anyway? [Amendment] In Rule 1.5.11 (Changing Line), replace "A Piece Move that involves a = change of Line" with "A non-Special Move that involves a change of Line". -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 716 - Quick Change [Amendment] To the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.21 (Bureau de Change), add the = sentence "Each of the Actions may be performed any number of times per Turn." { We've been playing it as such for a long time, after all. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 717 - Slight CAMREC Rumblings [Multiple] In Rule 4.0.0 (Non-MC Games), replace the first paragraph with:- Other games than MC may be played on the London Underground (or equivalent network). In these games, having a Piece end a Turn at Mornington Crescent does not constitute a Win. { Mornington Crescent should still be an important Station, I feel, with its own Opening cost and special rules. Although not permitting = victory, it allows for some interesting tactics if it's left in. (The "a normal Station like any other" wording is a little dangerous, also, should anyone feel like claiming "okay, it'll be like Dollis Hill".) } Replace the last paragraph of Rule 4.2.4 (Checks and Balances) with:- If only one Player remains in the Game, e is the Winner. { The current "if any Player succeeds in removing all other Players from = the Game" wording means that a single Player must take out each other = Player, which seems unlikely. The "as much as if e has played Mornington = Crescent" is questionable, as well, in a variant where Moving to MC should mean nothing. } Replace the first paragraph of Rule 4.2.5 (Jump Start) with:- Up to four Players may participate in a Czech Variant Game, and there = is never a Drone Player. There are four sets of start positions for = Pieces corresponding to the four Compass Quadrants. These start positions are randomly allocated by the Speaker before the Game begins. Once a Game has begun, no further Players may join. { Knocked-out Players are kept out of the game under current rules, but new Players joining towards the end would be quite out of keeping. = Also, having the Drone in play would make the Game too strange and = unbalanced. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 718 - Uncharged [Repeal] Repeal Rule 2.1.2 (No Charge). { Comment: That Rule doesn't exist any more. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 719 - Listen Very Carefully, I Will Say Zis Only Once = [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.4.3 (Proposal Submission) by inserting the following = paragraph after the first: In order to simplify the incorporation of new text into the Ruleset, Proposals containing content which is to inserted verbatim should be formatted in a similar way to the Ruleset. This applies particularly to Enactments, Actions, and large scale Amendments. { Comment: Well, you know what this is about. It isn't just laziness on the part of your Speaker - extensive reformatting has potential to introduce errors, and the fewer opportunities for such mistakes the better. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 720 - Liquid Assets [Multiple] [Repeal: Thaw Point] Repeal Rule 0.4.14 (The Ice Man Cometh). [Amendment: Old Thaw] Amend Rule 0.4.1 (Proposal Types) to remove Freeze and Unfreeze. { Comment: this hasn't been used, and doesn't seem likely to be either. All it's doing at the moment is cluttering up the MN web page. I think a better bet would be some kind of local ruleset for particular games. But that's a whole other Proposal. } [End of Liquid Assets] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 721 - Bear All [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.9.4 (Fish and Fowl) to remove the Clever Bear Award. { Comment: This isn't getting used, and isn't likely to be. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 722 - Funny Peculiar [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.9.4 (Fish and Fowl) to add the following award: Lyttleton Trophy Audience Appreciation Award Awarded to the Player whose Proposal or Proposal title garners the greatest number of remarks appreciative of it humour posted to the Discussion Lounge from the other Players. Only the first such remark from each Player for a particular Proposal shall be counted. The Proposer shall receive a bonus +3 Kudos points. As this Award is objectively assessed, the Speaker shall be eligible. { Comment: Dammit, but there aren't enough witty Proposals around! } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 4 19:05:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30336 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 02:05:11 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 02:05:11 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03228 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 03:05:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19453 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:42:47 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA17455; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:42:46 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905040842.JAA17455@u...> Date: 04 May 99 09:41:42 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-322-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 01-May-99 06:44 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Kudos - Why? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ole perspicaciously commented on Kudos: > So, the way I see it, they are nice, and that's it. Yes. The current role of Kudos is as an indicator of how much each Player has contributed to the game recently, or at least how successfully. I've tried to get rid of it, but that didn't fly. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 4 21:38:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24874 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 04:38:42 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 04:38:42 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA19822; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:38:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019675; Wed, 5 May 99 14:38:14 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:38:11 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:38:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Resigning from Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taking what some may see as the coward's option, I would like to resign from Game 15. As it seems to be getting nowhere with great rapidity I can't see any point in staying in (seeing that I was a fair bit behind). And why I sent that to l-nomic-c I have no eye dear. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 01:16:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11929 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 08:16:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 08:16:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23518 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:15:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA30431 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:15:21 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA05410; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:15:19 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905050815.JAA05410@u...> Date: 05 May 99 09:14:10 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-336-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 04-May-99 21:58 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Kudos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Snow: Thanks for working that out. I was all set to disagree, but then the numbers= I came up with were exactly half of yours and the penny dropped! To answer a couple of your queries - >I can find no reference to gaining Kudos through >judging an Emergency Proposal EPs aren't Judged any more - they are Voted on. So the Proposer of an EP gains Kudos on that EP during the Week it was Voted on as if it were a normal Proposal. >4) The first part of the first sentence of Rule 0.4.3 means "the >maximum number of proposals a player may make in one week is >5", rather than "the maximum number of proposals in one week is >5" and that at least one other proposal is voted on. Quite. I think an "Each" at the beginning of the sentence you refer to would= help. It has been pointed out before (by the currently Inactive dave, principally)= that some of the language in the Ruleset is a bit tortured... a pair of fresh eyes helps to see that. >10) I've not made a mistake. Not as far as I can see. Excellent job. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 01:44:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18790 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 08:40:17 -0000 Received: from inet16.us.oracle.com (192.86.155.100) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 08:40:17 -0000 Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by inet16.us.oracle.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04909 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA25090; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:40:15 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905050840.JAA25090@u...> Date: 05 May 99 09:37:34 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-340-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 05-May-99 05:38 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Resigning from Game 15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Taking what some may see as the coward's option, I would like to resign from >Game 15. As it seems to be getting nowhere with great rapidity I can't see= >any point in staying in (seeing that I was a fair bit behind). Well, 'behind' is a relative term - I don't think you're in any different position than either Kevan or myself, really. Sorry to see you go, though. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 02:02:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28387 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 09:02:21 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 09:02:21 -0000 Received: from opus (p437-168.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.201.168]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03136 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:02:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <009d01be96d5$dee1e820$a8c98e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:25:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Kudos - Why? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dunx explained: The current role of Kudos is as an indicator of how much each Player has contributed to the game recently, or at least how successfully. ¤¤¤ So, taking the Busíness Approach(TM), there is no reason to accumulate Kudos. Well, the Business Approach(TM) usually makes games (and gamers) boring, anyways. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 02:02:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28402 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 09:02:24 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 09:02:24 -0000 Received: from opus (p437-168.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.201.168]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03177 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:02:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <009f01be96d5$e0426280$a8c98e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:00:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Airport Interchange? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have looked in 1.17.1 and 1.17.6, and found: (1.17.1) Furthermore, Stations on the Map, which are indicated by the Map's Key as Interchange Stations, may be referred to, in general, as Interchange Stations. (1.17.6) * Interchange - An Interchange Station is one which is defined on the Map as being an Interchange Station. That's all very fine. It didn't particularly help me in determining the difference between Interchanges and Co-Situated Stations, but I believe I have found out anyways. Now I wonder: The Map legend has an aeroplane symbol, meaning Airport Interchange. Does this mean that the Heathrow Terminals are Interchanges? I guess not, but it's a bit too close for comfort. Anyone want to make an Airport Interchange proposal? It could get interesting on maps with more airports (Finsbury for one). Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 02:52:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18294 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 09:51:58 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 09:51:58 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28329 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:51:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28932 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:51:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id KAA27163; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:51:44 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905050951.KAA27163@u...> Date: 05 May 99 10:49:09 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-342-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 05-May-99 09:25 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Kudos - Why? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > So, taking the Bus=EDness Approach(TM), there is no reason to accumulate > Kudos. Quite so. > Well, the Business Approach(TM) usually makes games (and gamers) boring, > anyways. Again, quite so. We didn't get where we are today by taking the Business Approach(TM). Thank Davis. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 05:30:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16117 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 12:28:51 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 12:28:51 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21152 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:28:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19445 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:27:19 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA15014; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:27:19 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905051227.NAA15014@u...> Date: 05 May 99 13:25:10 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-338-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 04-May-99 23:10 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Best get back into this... lots to comment on in a patronisingly approving way as well. The Proposals for Week 4 included: > Proposal 705 - The Emperor's New Clothes... [Enactment] This is really, really nice... a tremendous example of one good idea sparking another. Trellis is going to be hard to award this Week. A couple of specific comments, though: > Hat (any other) If the player ends eir (non-Passed) Move at a > Station of the same type as the Hat being worn, e may collect 1 Blue > Token provided that e has not collected that Hat in the same Turn. I'm glad to see this one again, having been terribly disappointed when my attempt at something similar was voted down. >(It > should be noted that only one Hat can be worn by any one Player at one > time: if the player wishes to wear another, the first must be removed.) I agree completely, but this text is rather buried at the moment - it could do with being brought out in the open a bit more since it is a terribly significant point. >If, for some reason, the Player wears > only one Glove ("L"eft or "R"ight) there is no effect: two must be worn > for any effects. Michael Jackson impression, anyone? Hmm. > {Comment: Pockets aren't bottomless, hence the suggested limit of > four small possessions therein... and losing an Overcoat is not likely > considering that it can't be stolen by a Shunt if being worn, and there > is no reason to take it off once worn.} What about if it's a warm day? > Proposal 706 - Timeout On The Grand Scale [Enactment] Fair enough, I guess - there are a fair long term Inactive Players kicking around. > Proposal 707 - You Have 10 Minutes To Clear This Building... [Amendment] > *Amend "Any Player" to "Any Player who is fewer than stations > away, where is that Player's LV" in the restrictions on detonating > the Package: and change the Action to Post-Move (it is currently > Neutral.) I'm not sure about the range of a remote control being limited by LV... I suppose it makes some kind of sense in terms of playability, although not a great deal as far as physical analogues go. > "A Player may perform the Action of [Defusing Package] [...] Pleasing. > Proposal 708 - Blocks, Impediments and Gaps [Multiple] > *Renumber the Bulkheading rule (1.7.26) into Section 1.9 I remember being a little surprised at the time when Bulkheads turned up in section 1.7... ah well. > Proposal 709 - *Boing* (Chalk Farm Ruleset) [Enactment] Interesting... not terribly sure how useful it is, but it might be instructive to see how it plays. One query: > (3) The Shunted Player does not travel along the same Line in the > opposite Line Direction to that which the Shunting Player arrived. This seems very opaquely worded to me - I can see what it means, but it took= me several readings to sort through it. I think the problem is that this (and indeed most of the numbered points) is= actually a restriction on perfoming the rebound rather than a consequence. In other words, I would say that this Proposal needs restructuring. > Proposal 710 - Token Table Change [Amendment] I have a strange feeling of deja vu... I'm glad to see this, but we do seem to be going round in circles on this. > Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] > Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' > advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn > finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then > Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. An exception to this 'skip' is > the Action [Walking]. [Walking] can occur between 0000 and 0500. > Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would > end at Thursday 0020. The next non-[Walking] Action could not begin > until 0500. Er... why, though? > Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] This in combination with Proposal 705 is splendid. I'm still unconvinced about the lengthy duration, deeply significant or not.= > Proposal 713 - Ever-Rolling Stream [Multiple] A lot of very perspicacious amendments, with one solitary caveat... > 3. Long Lunch [Action] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > [Duration: +0x00] Neut 1.7.x Varies > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This makes such manipulations free, whereas the the current [Game Time] Action costs one Blue Token per hour. This may seem a pointless objection when Farkling is always free, but then you can't do anything else at the same time as a Farkle. > Proposal 714 - Time Again [Action] Better, but it's still not clear (I think) from the wording of the Proposal that this is a padding Action but does not itself extend the duration of the= Turn. In fact, I'm not convinced this meaning is even present without the passage of Proposal 713 above. > Proposal 715 - A Pressing Special Need [Multiple] I'm going to come back to this later - I need to go over the current implementation again. > Proposal 716 - Quick Change [Amendment] A very perceptive little amendment. > Proposal 717 - Slight CAMREC Rumblings [Multiple] > Replace the last paragraph of Rule 4.2.4 (Checks and Balances) with:- > If only one Player remains in the Game, e is the Winner. Oh, I suppose. It's interesting this - this not only fixes a broken bit of wording (which I= accept unreservedly and with gratitude) but also takes away that way of winning. My intention was to allow a Player to win by moving eir Commuter to MC. Unfortunately, I blew it on the wording - I was so busy trying to get the chess bits sorted out that I rather forgot about moving to MC. Oh well. It's no loss. > Proposal 718 - Uncharged [Repeal] > Repeal Rule 2.1.2 (No Charge). > { Comment: That Rule doesn't exist any more. } This is mine. It's been pointed out to me that this coment can be somewhat misleading. The= purpose of this Proposal is to remove a reference to Rule 1.19.3 which was repealed some time ago - the comment confuses the issue, since it can be misread as meaning that Rule 2.1.2 doesn't existi any more. Sorry about that. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed May 5 05:46:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6628 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 12:46:18 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 12:46:18 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 1999 13:46:17 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:46:13 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <199905051227.NAA15014@u...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a brief response to a comment from Dunx (forgive the formatting on this one, but the eGroups text editor has, as ever, ideas of its own):- > > 3. Long Lunch [Action] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > [Duration: +0x00] Neut 1.7.x Varies > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This makes such manipulations free, whereas the the current [Game Time] > Action > costs one Blue Token per hour. This may seem a pointless objection when > Farkling is always free, but then you can't do anything else at the same > time > as a Farkle. Nng. It was meant to be, of course, one Blue per hour, again. Making it fairly identical to the Game Time Action, if you use the free Waiting Action to pad out the spare hours. Expect an email shortly with an update to the Proposal, Dunx. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 05:59:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14030 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 12:58:58 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 12:58:58 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01838 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:58:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25291 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:58:18 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA11402; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:58:17 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905051258.NAA11402@u...> Date: 05 May 99 13:55:01 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-346-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 05-May-99 13:46 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Expect an email shortly with an update to the Proposal, Dunx. Received. I'll sort it out tonight when I can use FTP. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 06:21:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27407 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 13:21:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 13:21:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p118-54.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.198.118]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09826 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:21:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201be96fa$04a587a0$76c652c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:54:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: > Proposal 710 - Token Table Change [Amendment] I have a strange feeling of deja vu... I'm glad to see this, but we do seem to be going round in circles on this. ### I find it strange that going through six interchanges earns me _nothing_. ### > Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] > Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' > advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn > finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then > Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. An exception to this 'skip' is > the Action [Walking]. [Walking] can occur between 0000 and 0500. > Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would > end at Thursday 0020. The next non-[Walking] Action could not begin > until 0500. Er... why, though? ### Why -which part of it? I find it unrealistic that Walking should be restricted, timewise. I haven't found any other Actions that could combine with Walking in the middle of the night. There might be some. Ole ### ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 10:05:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32759 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 17:04:57 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 17:04:57 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18811 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:04:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09776 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:04:54 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id SAA23602; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:04:54 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905051704.SAA23602@u...> Date: 05 May 99 18:00:53 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-345-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 05-May-99 13:25 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote: >> Proposal 715 - A Pressing Special Need [Multiple] >I'm going to come back to this later - I need to go over the current >implementation again. This is 'later' enough. A very good Proposal, considerably simplifying the current structure. My only misgiving is (as I've mentioned on a previous draft) that Striling currently doesn't zero LV, but I don't think that's a big loss anyway. The primary criticism of this new structure (not one I would put forward, although others might) is that the 'check list' format has been lost: the existing 1.5.0 is a centralised listing of what invalidates Moves. But I much prefer the format of this Proposal - considerably easier to maintain, and much easier to follow. Kevan: apologies for not voicing my concerns properly before. I'll try not to rush my opinions again. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 5 17:43:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5651 invoked by uid 7770); 5 May 1999 23:38:31 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 May 1999 23:38:31 -0000 Received: from modem-95.promethium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.30.95] helo=franz-liszt) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10fBFF-0004AV-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 6 May 1999 00:38:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01be9751$951fffc0$5f1e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:47:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Thoughts on Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] But what do we do when the player whose turn it is to play wants to play a non-Walking move and someone else has just put the game time past midnight by Walking? Does e have to miss eir turn and wait until enough Players have Walked around to bring the time up to 5am? This is a problem. >Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] *GREAT* idea, as I mentioned before. Proposal 705 complemens this rather well, as was the intention (though someone will have to add functions for scarfs etc. eventually. >We don't have a way of Losing things, yet. Just you wait... I must admit one of my proposals for next week is going to take a bet on this one passing. I'll put in some ways of Losing stuff... Proposal 714 - Time Again [Action] > the duration of this Action can be any > period the Actioning Player wishes, between five minutes and one week. This is odd. How on earth do you get one turn to last a week? (It would need loads of blue tokens - 19 per day for days 2-7 (discounting the five hours between 0000 and 0500) plus 18 for the first day (you get the first hour as standard), for a grand total of 132 Blue Tokens...) Or is the implication of this that Waiting ignores the maximum Turn length? IMHO it shouldn't, that's what the "Farkle" move is for. This should be changed to "between five minutes and the maximum legal duration of the Player's turn." Proposal 715 - A Pressing Special Need [Multiple] Got it. Seems to have ironed out all the bugs. >Proposal 717 - Slight CAMREC Rumblings [Multiple] >{ Mornington Crescent should still be an important Station, I feel, with > its own Opening cost and special rules} And what would be the result of this? Simply that nobody would ever bother to land on MC if it costs three gold tokens to enter. It can still be passed through anyway, as it is not Blocked but Closed, and of course the other branch of the Northern goes straight from Euston to Camden Town. I can't see any strategy that could conceivably make use of MC having an Opening cost. (Oh, and BTW I'm not that keen on other stations, for instance Dollis Hill, having special effects in non-MC games. For instance, how would it affect the Czech Variant? One piece moves to Dollis Hill, then follows a bloodbath as every other piece in the game lands on top of it (movement to Dollis Hill being not just permitted but enforced.) This is clearly broken and needs fixing.) I would, however, like Dunx's idea that one can win the Czech game by moving the Commuter to MC, in addition to the other way of winning (for instance, if so many exchanges have taken place that there is no way of pinning the final enemy Commuter down). But other pieces in the game should treat it as a normal station. Proposal 719 - Listen Very Carefully, I Will Say Zis Only Once [Amendment] In order to simplify the incorporation of new text into the Ruleset, Proposals containing content which is to inserted verbatim should be formatted in a similar way to the Ruleset. This applies particularly to Enactments, Actions, and large scale Amendments. This can be a bit difficult on both sides. The way I see it, the current situation inconveniences only one person (the Speaker.) The situation after this Rule inconveniences everyone else - besides, there is *still* the chance that something might go wrong. Anyway, this is unenforcable (what happens to proposals submitted in the "wrong" format? Are the simply rejected for the sake of appearances, or are they let in in defiance of the new Rule of this proposal? Either way, it is broken.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 00:49:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20922 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 04:56:45 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 04:56:45 -0000 Received: from opus (p439-138.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.202.138]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA28259 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:56:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <006201be977c$b941f900$8aca8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 06:54:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Thoughts on Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan wrote: :Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] :But what do we do when the player whose turn it is to play wants to play :a non-Walking move and someone else has just put the game time past :midnight by Walking? Does e have to miss eir turn and wait until enough :Players have Walked around to bring the time up to 5am? This is a :problem. I see. The Practical Solution(TM) would be to advance the time to 0500 and then do whatever e wants. Since the Practical Solution(TM) isn't always available, let's rewrite the proposal to: #### I want to walk in the night! In "Rule 1.13.1 - The Richard Whiteley Experience", replace: Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. with Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. An exception to this 'skip' is the Action [Walking]. [Walking] can occur between 0000 and 0500. Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would end at Thursday 0020. The next non-[Walking] Action would begin at 0500. #### ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu May 6 02:49:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5856 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 06:56:57 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 06:56:57 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10fI5X-0001xR-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:56:55 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 06:55:16 GMT Message-ID: <3731397f.253467@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable { Speaker's Comment: Two updated Proposals for your edification. These new versions are = still to be voted on in Week 4. Votes received on the previous versions have been discarded and must be recast (those concerned having been notified privately as well). } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] I want to walk in the night! In "Rule 1.13.1 - The Richard Whiteley Experience", replace: Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. with Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. An exception to this 'skip' is=20 the Action [Walking]. [Walking] can occur between 0000 and 0500. Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would end at Thursday 0020. The next non-[Walking] Action would begin at 0500. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 713 - Ever-Rolling Stream [Multiple] 1. Half the Clock [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.13.1 (The Richard Whiteley = Experience) to:- Each Player's Turn has a default maximum duration of one hour. = Whenever a Player performs an Action or makes a Move, Game Time is advanced by the duration of that Action or Move. If this should take the duration of eir Turn so far beyond its maximum duration, the Turn becomes Illegal. { A very, very necessary clarification - that the clock ticks as your = Turn progresses; if a Closed Station opens in half an hour and you wish to Move there, it's possible to do things for thirty minutes then Move legally. Current wordings are at best vague and at worst counter- intuitive, on this score. } 2. Dry-Marker Pens from Hell [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.13.3 (Carol Vorderman's Revenge) to:- Any Action or the movement of the Player's Piece shall have a duration= of ten minutes of Game Time unless otherwise specified. Payment of Token forfeits and receipt of Token bonuses shall be considered = instantaneous, that is having no duration. A Move of Pass or Timeout shall similarly = have no duration. { Trimming superfluity. } 3. Long Lunch [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Duration: +0x00] Neut 1.7.x -x Bu = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Duration: +0x00]" to extend the length of eir Turn - upon performing this Action, eir Turn's duration is increased by 'x' hours. { As it stands, "[Game Time: +0x00]" puts the clock forward *and* extends your Turn - if you do a two-hour one at noon, the clock goes forward to two o'clock, and you can then perform an extra two hours of Actions, leaving the clock at 4pm. Not good. } 4. Right Away [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.13.2 (Get a Move On) and remove the relevant Action from = the Ruleset. { I did consider leaving the "[Game Time: +0x00]" Action in, to allow Players to wind the clock forward without taking it as part of their Turn, but = it seemed a bit too superfluous. Particularly when there was that handy = little "[Waiting]" Action I came up with last Week - you can just extend the duration of your Turn and wait for the whole of it, if you must... The Waiting Proposal failed for being badly explained, anyway. There = now follows a reproposal of it. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 6 03:23:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10997 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 08:21:56 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 08:21:56 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 May 1999 09:21:56 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 08:21:51 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <000d01be9751$951fffc0$5f1e883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts on Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 714 - Time Again [Action] > > > the duration of this Action can be any > > period the Actioning Player wishes, between five minutes and one > week. > > This is odd. How on earth do you get one turn to last a week? [...] > This should be changed to "between five minutes and the maximum legal > duration of the Player's turn." A week was just an arbitrary upper maximum, just in case anyone ever did manage to amass hundreds of Blues. If anything, it'd work better as "any duration which is a multiple of five minutes". "Maximum legal duration" just seems a bit fiddly, particularly when it's obvious that a four-day Waiting Action during a sixty-minute Turn will make that Turn Illegal. > >Proposal 717 - Slight CAMREC Rumblings [Multiple] > >{ Mornington Crescent should still be an important Station, I feel, > with > > its own Opening cost and special rules} > > > And what would be the result of this? Simply that nobody would ever > bother to land on MC if it costs three gold tokens to enter. It can > still be passed through anyway, as it is not Blocked but Closed, and of > course the other branch of the Northern goes straight from Euston to > Camden Town. I can't see any strategy that could conceivably make use of > MC having an Opening cost. Well, the Ostrich can scamper and hide there if it can get the Golds, a Team might like to try and get their Flag there to keep it safe, a Czech Variant Piece could Move there and become difficult to capture, and so forth. As you say, it can still be passed through anyway - better to keep it in for optional strategy than to declare it "normal" and render it meaningless, I feel. > (Oh, and BTW I'm not that keen on other > stations, for instance Dollis Hill, having special effects in non-MC > games. For instance, how would it affect the Czech Variant? One piece > moves to Dollis Hill, then follows a bloodbath as every other piece in > the game lands on top of it (movement to Dollis Hill being not just > permitted but enforced.) This is clearly broken and needs fixing.) I admit to not being entirely au fait with the Czech rules yet, but yes, this does seem like a pressing issue. Perhaps all Stations should become "normal" in a Czech Game, since the style is so different to typical MC games? > Proposal 719 - Listen Very Carefully, I Will Say Zis Only Once > [Amendment] > In order to simplify the incorporation of new text into the Ruleset, > Proposals containing content which is to inserted verbatim should be > formatted in a similar way to the Ruleset. This applies particularly > to Enactments, Actions, and large scale Amendments. > > This can be a bit difficult on both sides. The way I see it, the current > situation inconveniences only one person (the Speaker.) The situation > after this Rule inconveniences everyone else - I can't begin to express my disappointment at this statement. The Speaker is doing eir job entirely voluntarily, putting in a great deal of time, dedication and effort to keep the Nomic above water - if there's any inconvience of eirs which can be lessened (by spreading it amongst Players or otherwise), it'd be ungrateful not to honour it. If it takes, say, five minutes to reformat a sketched-out Proposal into a "proper" style, and twelve such Proposals are made in a Week, the Speaker has an hour's worth of work on eir hands. If the Proposers reformatted them themselves before posting, it'd take them about fifteen minutes each, and the Speaker could get on with eir other duties and - whisper it - real life. But, of course, when you're writing a Proposal you can format it as you go along, and this is barely an effort. Three-space indentation on anything that's going to be pasted directly into the Ruleset (very easy to do with a macro; if you're using a text editor that doesn't support such things, I recommend kicking the Web for a "PFE" download site), clarity of amendment and passing thought as to how the Speaker's going to have to deal with the end result. > besides, there is *still* > the chance that something might go wrong. Anyway, this is unenforcable > (what happens to proposals submitted in the "wrong" format? Are the > simply rejected for the sake of appearances, or are they let in in > defiance of the new Rule of this proposal? Either way, it is broken.) I think if it says "Proposals should be...", then anything that isn't can be optionally regarded as "not a Proposal". This rule could benefit from a little "...or they may be ignored" clause, I suppose. Speaking as an ex-Speaker, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 03:29:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20387 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 08:39:10 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 08:39:10 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28277 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:39:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00330 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:33:35 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA12499; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:33:35 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905060833.JAA12499@u...> Date: 06 May 99 09:31:26 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-349-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 05-May-99 18:00 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> Proposal 715 - A Pressing Special Need [Multiple] >>I'm going to come back to this later - I need to go over the current >>implementation again. >My only misgiving is (as I've mentioned on a previous draft) that Striling >currently doesn't zero LV, but I don't think that's a big loss anyway. Actually - I've thought of something else. I think Dollis Hill Loops might be inescapable. Consider: 1. Proposal 715 states that LV is zeroed after a Special Move 2. Loops are now implemented as Special Moves. The most pessimistic reading of this is that any Move to a Loop Trap Station= during a Loop will zero LV. Since the only way to break a Loop now is a Loop= Escape which is allowed only with high LV, this Action can never be played. A less pessimistic reading is that only the first forced Move into a Loop is= Special, since once in the Loop there is no need to make a Special Move to reach the Trap Station. There are two faults with this reading though: 1. this reading only has merit in single Station Loops. Obviously this is the only kind we have now, but I'm sure an Amersham/Aldwych loop can't be far away now. 2. it confers a considerable advantage to the initiator of the Loop - since e will be the only one with a non-zero LV when the loop starts, e will have the lead in terminating it. Either way, I think we may need an exemption on the LV zeroing of Special Moves for Loop Moves. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 03:57:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5559 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 09:58:05 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 09:58:05 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26287 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:58:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA30161 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:57:50 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id KAA26792; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:57:49 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905060957.KAA26792@u...> Date: 06 May 99 10:56:47 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-350-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 06-May-99 00:47 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts on Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Proposal 719 - Listen Very Carefully, I Will Say Zis Only Once >>[Amendment] >> In order to simplify the incorporation of new text into the Ruleset, >> Proposals containing content which is to inserted verbatim should be >> formatted in a similar way to the Ruleset. This applies particularly >> to Enactments, Actions, and large scale Amendments. >This can be a bit difficult on both sides. The way I see it, the current >situation inconveniences only one person (the Speaker.) The situation >after this Rule inconveniences everyone else Yes, but any inconvenience is spread out - the current situation is that the= Speaker may have to reformat *every* Proposal, whereas if the Proposals are formatted to match the Ruleset byt the Proposer then the maximum amount of formatting for each individual is five Proposals. Also, writing the Proposal initially in a form compatible with the Ruleset would require no reformatting at all and hence (as far as I can see) no inconvenience. The current situation is unreasonable in that it makes the Speaker's life as= difficult as possible. >besides, there is *still* >the chance that something might go wrong. Anyway, this is unenforcable >(what happens to proposals submitted in the "wrong" format? Are the >simply rejected for the sake of appearances, or are they let in in >defiance of the new Rule of this proposal? Either way, it is broken.) This is true, but then sanctions are difficult to formulate in this area anyway. The only options I could come up with were a Kudos penalty, or asking the Proposer to do the edits emself. This Proposal is intended only to document what would be of help to the Speaker rather than necessarily to enforce it. I was going to note down exactly the formats used in the ruleset, but apart from this being intensely dull it's also mutable - the next Speaker may wish= to lay out the Ruleset in an entirely different way or abandon the text format completely. Would it be more helpful to offer some informal submission guidelines on the= web site rather than putting this stuff in the ruleset? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 6 04:01:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10347 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 10:04:32 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 10:04:32 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 May 1999 11:04:32 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:04:27 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <3731397f.253467@p...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] > > Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' > advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn > finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then > Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. An exception to this 'skip' is > the Action [Walking]. [Walking] can occur between 0000 and 0500. > Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would > end at Thursday 0020. The next non-[Walking] Action would begin at > 0500. Forgive me if I miss a point, but - er - does this have any particular impact on the game, aside from slightly altering Game Time if someone performs a "[Walking]" Action in the run-up to midnight? Under current Rules, the Play of "[Walking] Neasden (JL) [Gold Rush]" performed at ten to midnight would take fifty minutes and finish at 5:40am. Under the proposed Rule, the same Play would take fifty minutes and finish at 5:10am. Being able to Walk at night is a nice enough image, and perfectly intuitive, but this implementation of it doesn't seem to achieve anything. Maybe it'd be workable with a "[Nightfall]" Action that prevents the next dark-skip and limits Players to Walking movement until 05:00am, or something. Making things intuitive is fairly awkward and difficult to implement across the board, though. If I can Walk during the usually-avoided hours of darkness, why can't I play my Harmonica? Tubas in the moonlight, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 6 04:14:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3039 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 10:40:56 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 10:40:56 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 May 1999 11:40:56 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:40:51 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <199905060833.JAA12499@u...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually - I've thought of something else. I think Dollis Hill Loops might > be inescapable. > [...] > Either way, I think we may need an exemption on the LV zeroing of Special > Moves for Loop Moves. Well, there's always Food and Shadowing. Even so, I think it might be better to change the Dollis Escape to something other than a high LV, rather than making an exception to Special Moves - on reflection, it's rather counter-intuitive to build up a high LV by continuing Moving to the same Station; if we're saying that magical, teleporting Special Moves set your LV to zero, it seems odd to make one case an exception. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 04:52:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21447 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 11:52:13 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 11:52:13 -0000 Received: from opus (p442-100.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.204.100]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA28877 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:52:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <009c01be97b6$c113e0a0$64cc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:28:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :Forgive me if I miss a point, but - er - does this have any particular impact on the game, aside from slightly altering Game Time if someone performs a "[Walking]" Action in the run-up to midnight? : :Making things intuitive is fairly awkward and difficult to implement across the board, though. If I can Walk during the usually-avoided hours of darkness, why can't I play my Harmonica? If I have read my proposal right, no. There is no other impact. And, of course you can play your Harmonica - but you can't make a living out of it - you wouldn't earn a Token. That part is changable, of course - though it might be a bit hard to implement a 'realistic' income pattern. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 6 05:07:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29537 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 12:07:37 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 12:07:37 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 May 1999 13:07:35 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:07:30 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <009c01be97b6$c113e0a0$64cc8e81@opus> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Forgive me if I miss a point, but - er - does this have any particular >> impact on the game, aside from slightly altering Game Time if someone >> performs a "[Walking]" Action in the run-up to midnight? > If I have read my proposal right, no. There is no other impact. Is such a minimal-impact rule worth having in the game, then, do you think? > And, of > course you can play your Harmonica - but you can't make a living out of it - > you wouldn't earn a Token. Oh, fair point, yes, you can't Busk outside of Peak Hours. > That part is changable, of course - though it > might be a bit hard to implement a 'realistic' income pattern. Well, indeed; in a game such as this, the more realistic you make it, the more boring and pointless it's likely to get - it might be interesting to have Players having to get from their Home Station to their Work Station by 9:00am, leaving at 5:30pm with an increased number of Bronze Tokens which they can spend on tickets, but the idea of "Shunting" another commuter becomes bizarre, as does most of the rest of the ruleset, and it soon falls to pieces. It's quite strange how we've developed something of a real/imaginary crossover for the game - I remember being very cautious when I first proposed Edible Possessions, for fear of trying to make the game too "real-life", but it seems to have become a workable and enjoyable avenue, and nowhere near as uncomfortable as I feared... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 05:10:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31137 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 12:10:27 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 12:10:27 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10624 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:10:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11036 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:10:18 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA20837; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:10:18 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905061210.NAA20837@u...> Date: 06 May 99 13:07:14 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-358-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 06-May-99 12:28 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >If I have read my proposal right, no. There is no other impact. And, of >course you can play your Harmonica - but you can't make a living out of it - >you wouldn't earn a Token. That part is changable, of course - though it >might be a bit hard to implement a 'realistic' income pattern. The possibilities are endless... becoming a street salesman (perhaps an alternative source for Edible items?); or a performance artist. Be a mugger (maybe reusing the Shunting Action in a pedestrian context); or a paramedic (after having been injured in a mugging, you could pay to get back into the game). Drive a taxi cab, or be a street walker (time for a [Jangling Keys] Action?). Before you know it we'll have a bustling London nightlife and won't need the= Underground at all. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 06:14:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3827 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 13:14:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 13:14:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p417-082.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.220.82]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04160 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:14:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <011f01be97c2$2efaf1c0$64cc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:02:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :Is such a minimal-impact rule worth having in the game, then, do you think? Definitely yes. Not necessarily in this form, though. The presence of a rule can spawn new rules, which can ... . As for realism, no. That would be inappropriate. 'Realism' - that's quite another alley. If things make sense in some way, they might be worth the bother. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 6 09:04:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21745 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 16:04:07 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 16:04:07 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 May 1999 17:04:07 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 16:04:02 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <011f01be97c2$2efaf1c0$64cc8e81@opus> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > :Is such a minimal-impact rule worth having in the game, then, do you think? > > Definitely yes. > Not necessarily in this form, though. > The presence of a rule can spawn new rules, which can ... . True enough, of course, but such is more the case with Proposals which offer much potential for future Proposals - "Each Player has a number of Tokens", "Stations may be Open or Closed", and whatever. Although night-time activity is a particularly intriguing idea, and one which I suspect will spawn new Proposals, the very tightly-focused Walking-in-the-night Proposal doesn't seem to be the best path into it. I think I'd be tempted to vote against it and wait for next Week to bring more appealing amendments, myself... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications >From "Ole Andersen" Thu May 6 10:10:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@e From kevan@d... Thu May 6 09:04:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21745 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 16:04:07 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 16:04:07 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 May 1999 17:04:07 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 16:04:02 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <011f01be97c2$2efaf1c0$64cc8e81@opus> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > :Is such a minimal-impact rule worth having in the game, then, do you think? > > Definitely yes. > Not necessarily in this form, though. > The presence of a rule can spawn new rules, which can ... . True enough, of course, but such is more the case with Proposals which offer much potential for future Proposals - "Each Player has a number of Tokens", "Stations may be Open or Closed", and whatever. Although night-time activity is a particularly intriguing idea, and one which I suspect will spawn new Proposals, the very tightly-focused Walking-in-the-night Proposal doesn't seem to be the best path into it. I think I'd be tempted to vote against it and wait for next Week to bring more appealing amendments, myself... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 10:10:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32120 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 17:09:55 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 17:09:55 -0000 Received: from opus (p440-005.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.203.5]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA03358 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:09:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <006201be97e3$1fef4f20$05cb8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:08:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dunx wrote: How about night walking being another way of getting a roll on the Lost Property table? ¤¤¤ That's an idea. Consider it bought. I'll update my props immediately. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu May 6 14:25:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30848 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 21:25:20 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 21:25:20 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10fVds-0001zn-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 6 May 1999 21:25:16 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:23:35 GMT Message-ID: <37330603.1186843@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable { Speaker's Comment: More updates to Proposals - this time to 711 (again) and 712. These are still for voting on in Week 4, although it's a close-run thing. Any = updates received tomorrow (that is, Friday) will have to be rolled over into = Week 5 since I won't be able to publish them and still allow the four day = period required for Votes. Once again, Votes received on these Proposals are discarded - the = parties concerned have been notified. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] I want to walk in the night! In "Rule 1.13.1 - The Richard Whiteley Experience", replace: Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. with Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. Exceptions to this 'skip' are: [Walking] and [Searching the Garbage], which can occur between 0000 and 0500. Thus, if Rushton began [Walking] at Wednesday 2350, this Action would end at Thursday 0020. The next Action would begin at 0500, unless it is one of the above exceptions.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] The ^^^-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. It consists of three proposed new rules and three insertions in tables. The %%%-delimited text takes care of a couple of potential loose ends. ^^^ Rule 1.7.x - Lost & Found London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. A Player at Baker Street can perform the 42-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir = Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 2 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 3 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 4-11 | | Caught Picking Rags# | | 12-13 | Spectacles | Garment | | 14-18 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 19 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 20-21 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 22 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 23 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 24 | Casiotone | Musical | | 25 | Drum | Musical | | 26 | Guitar | Musical | | 27 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 28 | Saxophone | Musical | | 29 | Violin | Musical | | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | | 32 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 33 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 34 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 35 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 36 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 37 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 38 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 39 | Velocity Bomb | | | 40-41 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 42 | Book | Papery | | 43-44 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 45 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 46-49 | | First item in Lost & Found Box | | 50-93 | Nothing | | | 94 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 95 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 96 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 97 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 98 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 99 | Token | 1 Silver | | 100 | Token | 1 Gold | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir next Turn. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on = the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the rear end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rule 1.7.(x+1) - Awwww - What a Stink A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action of [Searching the Garbage], but only between 2330 and 0530, and only after having performed the [Walking] Action in the same Turn. The Player performing the [Searching the Garbage] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table in Rule 1.7.x. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. Rule 1.4.x - Read All About It! A Newspaper is a Papery posession that costs 1 Bronze Token. When a Player purchases a Newspaper, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like "'s Paper" in the Luggage - for instance, an Newspaper purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday's Paper". Newspapers that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Today's, and Newspapers that have a different day are said to be Yesterday's. While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays = nothing to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper upon performing that Action. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 42 -2 Br varies [Searching the Garbage) Post x.x.x 30 -2 Br varies +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Piano | 9 Br | Musical, Too Big! | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ [as bottom item] * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the = table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the = roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves (thus changing the roll of 22 to be 22-23). %%% ^^^ UPDATES: Added [Searching the Garbage]. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 16:03:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24917 invoked by uid 7770); 6 May 1999 23:03:22 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 May 1999 23:03:22 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA01783; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:03:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma001578; Fri, 7 May 99 09:02:51 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:02:45 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:02:40 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 4 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, 6 May 1999 20:41, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > Well, there's always Food and Shadowing. Even so, I think it might be > better to change the Dollis Escape to something other than a high LV, > rather than making an exception to Special Moves - on reflection, it's > rather counter-intuitive to build up a high LV by continuing Moving to > the same Station; if we're saying that magical, teleporting Special Moves > set your LV to zero, it seems odd to make one case an exception. True. The LV exception for DH isn't a big problem, really (IMO). I agree that it's counterintuitive to be building up LV and still not be moving, but otherwise we're going to have to think up a (consistent) new way of escaping DH loops that can, eventually, be performed by anyone in any circumstance. Another opinion here is that exceptions is what gives the game its distinct flavour. Why Bank in particular for cashing in hats and other items (apart from the name association)? Why Mornington Crescent as a finishing station? The answer is simply "it's traditional". I personally think that we may indeed need a better way to escape DH, but I think we would be true to the spirit of the IMCS if the rules allowed you to build up LV at DH without moving in order to escape. Opinions. You gotta have 'em. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 17:23:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2499 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 00:23:23 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 00:23:23 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA18661; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:23:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma018640; Fri, 7 May 99 10:23:18 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:23:11 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:23:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Votes for 711 and 712 (again) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 711 - For Proposal 712 - For Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 17:25:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3571 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 00:25:27 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 00:25:27 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA19511; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:25:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019382; Fri, 7 May 99 10:24:59 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:24:53 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:24:44 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Votes for 711 and 712 (again) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, 7 May 1999 10:23, Wayper, Paul [SMTP:WayperP@p...] wrote: > Proposal 711 - For > Proposal 712 - For Brilliant. *puts gun to head* *pulls trigger* *flag with "Bang" unrolls from other ear* Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Thu May 6 23:17:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20564 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 06:17:02 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 06:17:02 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA00645 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 02:21:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:19:39 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] This proposal still has the problems I mentioned earlier: it can only be played at Baker Street, and since it's a 42-minute Post-Move action, that means that to use it, you have to move directly to Baker Street without adjusting your LV or doing _anything_ else that turn. And after wasting your turn this way, you still have only a 50% chance of any gain at all. (And an 8% chance of losing all your Possessions and your next turn!) I think it would be much better implemented as a [Finding Lost Object] action that could be played _anywhere_. Lost items don't necessarily turn up at the Lost and Found, after all. "Rag Picking" could be renamed "Accused of Theft", or something. And that would leave Baker Street free for a Sherlock Holmes-related action, should anyone think of one. :) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Thu May 6 23:29:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25270 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 06:29:52 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 06:29:52 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA00917 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 02:34:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:32:29 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think it would be much better implemented as a [Finding Lost Object] >action that could be played _anywhere_. Lost items don't necessarily turn >up at the Lost and Found, after all. "Rag Picking" could be renamed >"Accused of Theft", or something. Erk, I completely missed the new [Searching the Garbage] action. Spoke too soon. However, the time restriction on this will still make it rather rare, particularly if 'Walking in the Night' doesn't pass, making it usable only in the two half-hour periods 2330-0000 and 0500-0530. I don't see the reason for that - nothing's stopping you from digging in the trash during the day. I still prefer '[Finding Lost Object], because I'd be pretty surprised to find a Gold Token or Violin in the trash. A playable violin, anyway. ;) Speaking of 'Walking in the Night', I really don't understand the rationale behind that one. The trains are still running all night - why walk? I don't see why it would be exempt from the time jump. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 6 23:53:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 847 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 06:53:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 06:53:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25211 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 07:53:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06525 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 07:53:00 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id HAA13068; Fri, 7 May 1999 07:52:59 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905070652.HAA13068@u...> Date: 07 May 99 07:48:54 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-369-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 07-May-99 08:32 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Speaking of 'Walking in the Night', I really don't understand the rationale= >behind that one. The trains are still running all night - why walk? Not in London, they don't - as I found out a few years ago when I was stranded at Wembley after the last tube had run. There is a reduced bus service overnight, though. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri May 7 00:03:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5016 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 07:03:18 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 07:03:18 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA01280 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 03:08:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:05:55 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Speaking of 'Walking in the Night', I really don't understand the rationale >>behind that one. The trains are still running all night - why walk? > >Not in London, they don't - as I found out a few years ago when I was >stranded >at Wembley after the last tube had run. Really? Is that the origin of the 0000 - 0500 time jump? I had assumed we were just sleeping, or something. :) --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 7 01:10:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30292 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 08:10:54 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 08:10:54 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15890 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:10:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25118 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:10:38 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA11438; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:10:37 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905070810.JAA11438@u...> Date: 07 May 99 09:07:03 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-371-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 07-May-99 09:05 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Not in London, they don't - as I found out a few years ago when I was >>stranded >>at Wembley after the last tube had run. >Really? Is that the origin of the 0000 - 0500 time jump? I had assumed we= >were just sleeping, or something. :) That really is it, yes. Nearly as strange as British pubs used to be in the afternoons. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 7 03:02:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6345 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 10:02:39 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 10:02:39 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 May 1999 11:02:40 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 10:02:33 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <37330603.1186843@p...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More updates? I'm not sure how much I'm in favour of mid-Week Proposal changes. Personally I never vote until the very end of the Week, so that I'm basing my opinion on as much discussion and reflection as possible, but I do wonder how many people vote mid-Week and are inconvenienced by these things. It's not a huge issue, I suppose - the updater suffers more than anyone, since eir Proposals are likely to fail if some of the votes are rendered invalid and never recast. It can mean quite a bit of work for the Speaker, though, I suppose... > Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] This still fails to appeal to me, I'm afraid; although a nice concept, I can't imagine this implementation ever being used - Walking is a rare enough event anyway; the chances of it being needed around midnight are incredibly slim, and the nugatory reward (a very slight change in Game Time, which can easily be compensated for by the next Player) doesn't give any real reason to bother. > Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] > > London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. Out of interest, though, is it actually at Paddington station? I forget how the bear story goes. > | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | > !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. After a weekend of being criticised by a three-year-old as "too big" for most of his toys, this amused me. Surely all "Too Big" Possessions should have this restriction, though, for completeness? And it should probably be worded as "If a Player carries a Too Big Possession, any non-Special Move e makes is Invalid." or something. Probably easier to say that you can still Wild and whatnot, I suspect. Although escaping a Dollis Hill Loop by buying a Piano has some amusement potential. > * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green It's not very much, is it, when you're paying more than a Gold Token to get the thing? > #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir > Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir > next Turn. Very harsh. There doesn't seem to be enough of a positive element to balance this, to my eyes. > A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action of > [Searching the Garbage], but only between 2330 and 0530, > and only after having performed the [Walking] Action in the same Turn. Um, the Player *has* to extend eir Turn to be able to do this, then - "[Walking]" takes half an hour, and the Move itself takes ten minutes. Paying two Bronze to search a dustbin seems, um, odd, anyway. > While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the > [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays nothing > to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper > upon performing that Action. An interesting implementation, and probably the most realistic use for a newspaper, but I think it'll have a possibly unhelpful impact on the Game - instead of just "[Walking]" and paying a Black, you can buy a paper for a Bronze and Walk for free. But nobody ever really uses Walking, so it's not that much of an issue. Perhaps it might be worthwhile concentrating on making Walking more usable... Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 7 05:44:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12445 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 12:44:07 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 12:44:07 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 May 1999 13:44:07 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:44:01 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Belated Proposal musings... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 705 - The Emperor's New Clothes... [Enactment] > > Garments that are being worn have the following properties: > Hat (Silly) The player may Farkle on eir turn. Not that you can't Farkle anyway. Such things are probably best written into the relevant rules - that the Busking bonus applies for *wearing* a Silly Hat rather than carrying one, and whatever. > Hat (Hard) The player may move along Construction Lines. Likewise. > Hat (any other) If the player ends eir (non-Passed) Move at a >Station of the same type as the Hat being worn, e may collect 1 Blue >Token provided that e has not collected that Hat in the same Turn. Superfluous exception, really - if you're being given a Blue in your Token Collection phase, you must have performed the Hat Collection before your Move; since this wasn't a Pass, you must have been at a different Station. All credit to you if you collect a BR Hat then Move to a different BR Station, I think. Surely this should be in Rule 1.4.20's Token Collection Table, though? > Overcoat - The Player has access to a Nantucket and may perform >the [Reshuffling] Action. Only one may be worn at any one time. This is actually stated in the amended Nantucket rule, so is rather superfluous here. I suppose one-at-a-time makes sense, though; such restriction is probably best generalised ("A Player may not wear a Possession if e already wears a Possession of that type.") and made more obvious. > Spectacles - If the Player performs an Action that targets >another Player (i.e. one from Section 1.10) e may affect a Player in an >adjacent station (instead of the normal stipulation that the Player must >be at the same location), but eir maximum LV is one less than normal (9 >rather than 10 under normal circumstances.) I had to read this twice to understand that the LV restriction was permanent, not just during the targetting Action. Seems like an odd effect of wearing Glasses, anyway, being able to fit Clamps on people at different Stations. >Spectacles may not be worn by a Player wearing the Hyde Mask. But you can put the Mask on after the Spectacles, I think. The Hyde Mask is an obvious candidate for becoming a Garment, actually. Quite a nice addition, this Garment business. > Gloves: A player wearing a pair of Gloves may pick up two Tokens >from any Stack in the station that e finishes eir Move at (but only one >from those e passes over.) Probably easier to implement as picking up two Tokens when you use the "[Claiming Token]" Action. Good stuff, though. > *New Actions: [Wearing ] and [Removing ], both >15-minute Post-Move. Mmm. Why fifteen, rather than ten? In all honesty I find it quite fiddly to check the durations of the Actions I perform - wouldn't it be better (and I might propose such sweeping reform) to have most Actions at ten minutes, with only a slim few "obvious" exceptions? > {Comment: Pockets aren't bottomless, hence the suggested limit of >four small possessions therein... Oh, I don't know, I used to lose an alarming number of things in the lining of my old coat. It's rare that anyone would Nantucket many things, though, looking over past games. >Proposal 706 - Timeout On The Grand Scale [Enactment] > > Any player who does not play a single move in any particular Game >for a period of two calendar months should be considered to have >Resigned from that Game and deleted from the relevant GSD, along with >all eir Tokens and Possessions. Fair enough. We could probably use a formal "Player X has resigned" notation to put in the GSD, actually, to make it easier to follow what's happened when you read back over it. >Proposal 707 - You Have 10 Minutes To Clear This Building... [Amendment] > > *Amend "Any Player" to "Any Player who is fewer than stations >away, where is that Player's LV" in the restrictions on detonating >the Package: and change the Action to Post-Move (it is currently >Neutral.) Hmm. Not a bad idea, I suppose. Why the distance of a radio transmission should be affected by LV, though, I've no idea. Doppler effect? > "A Player may perform the Action of [Defusing Package] provided >that e is situated at the same location as a Suspect Package and has not >placed a Suspect Package emself during eir last three Turns. Eir LV is >set to zero upon performing this action, and the Package is removed from >the game." I think it's fair enough to let you defuse your own packages, if you're stupid enough to drop one and sit next to it for a Turn. So long as you can't defuse one you've dropped earlier in the Turn, things should be alright. And if you're able to drop one and defuse it the next Turn, without anyone blowing you up in the mean-time, you deserve a reward. >Proposal 708 - Blocks, Impediments and Gaps [Multiple] Bravo, I think. Not sure about the Sinkholes, but this all seems quite wise. >Proposal 709 - *Boing* (Chalk Farm Ruleset) [Enactment] Very cute. Another thing that I'd welcome in the main ruleset, as a variation of basic Shunting. >Proposal 710 - Token Table Change [Amendment] I suppose this can't hurt. It was only the huge Token bonuses for more than five Interchanges that I objected to, whenever it was. >Proposal 720 - Liquid Assets [Multiple] > >Repeal Rule 0.4.14 (The Ice Man Cometh). Mmm. I suppose there's no need for it now that things seem to have picked up, and that the Ruleset's behaving itself more. >Proposal 722 - Funny Peculiar [Amendment] > >Amend Rule 0.9.4 (Fish and Fowl) to add the following award: > > Lyttleton Trophy Audience Appreciation Award > > Awarded to the Player whose Proposal or Proposal title garners the > greatest number of remarks appreciative of it humour posted to the > Discussion Lounge from the other Players. Hmm. Do you really feel enthusiastic enough to total these up every Week, Dunx? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 7 06:40:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14045 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 13:40:13 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 13:40:13 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06924 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 14:40:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03037 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 14:40:11 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id OAA23982; Fri, 7 May 1999 14:40:09 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905071340.OAA23982@u...> Date: 07 May 99 13:41:49 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Generated Current Reports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: I asked a few weeks ago about whether it would be acceptable to delete the Current reports from my web site. Someone (RiffRaff, I think) said they still used them, so I didn't remove them in the end. Well, Xoom are now claiming to offer unlimited web space so I was thinking of moving the reports onto the main site. Any objections? I will update the look of the pages while I'm at it to match the rest of the= site. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 7 06:51:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21370 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 13:51:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 13:51:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p139-26.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.154]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA11745 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:51:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <004801be9890$8730fdc0$9acd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:42:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Updates to Proposals 711 & 712 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :> Proposal 711 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] : :This still fails to appeal to me, I'm afraid; although a nice concept, I :can't imagine this implementation ever being used - Walking is a rare :enough event anyway; the chances of it being needed around midnight are :incredibly slim, and the nugatory reward (a very slight change in Game :Time, which can easily be compensated for by the next Player) doesn't :give any real reason to bother. : Is 'nugatory' an everyday word? It seems to have no relation to nougat. :-( :> Proposal 712 - Lost and Found [Multiple] :> :> London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed near Baker Street. : :Out of interest, though, is it actually at Paddington station? I :forget how the bear story goes. : It's been quite a while since I read Paddington last, but the Lost Property Office _is_ in Baker Street, and the nearest station _is_ Baker Street. :> | 31 | Piano | Musical, Too Big! | :> !) The Piano can only be moved using the [Walking] Action. : :After a weekend of being criticised by a three-year-old as "too big" for :most of his toys, this amused me. Surely all "Too Big" Possessions :should have this restriction, though, for completeness? And it should :probably be worded as "If a Player carries a Too Big Possession, any :non-Special Move e makes is Invalid." or something. Probably easier to :say that you can still Wild and whatnot, I suspect. Although escaping :a Dollis Hill Loop by buying a Piano has some amusement potential. : I have a 'Size Matters' proposal coming - so far I have four sizes in mind: Small, Big, Too Big and the default, unmarked size. :> * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green : :It's not very much, is it, when you're paying more than a Gold Token :to get the thing? : What are the exchange rates between the various Tokens? Pianos should be expensive and bothersome, but I don't know how much one should earn playing one. :> #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill, loses all of eir :> Possessions and must play a Move of "Pass" with no Actions as eir :> next Turn. : :Very harsh. There doesn't seem to be enough of a positive element to :balance this, to my eyes. : Perhaps too harsh. I still like the 'In Jail' (or should it be 'In Gaol') idea. :> A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action of :> [Searching the Garbage], but only between 2330 and 0530, :> and only after having performed the [Walking] Action in the same Turn. : :Um, the Player *has* to extend eir Turn to be able to do this, then - :"[Walking]" takes half an hour, and the Move itself takes ten minutes. : What if e doesn't Move? :Paying two Bronze to search a dustbin seems, um, odd, anyway. : Granted. :> While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the :> [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays nothing :> to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper :> upon performing that Action. : :An interesting implementation, and probably the most realistic use :for a newspaper, but I think it'll have a possibly unhelpful impact :on the Game - instead of just "[Walking]" and paying a Black, you :can buy a paper for a Bronze and Walk for free. As I say above, I don't really know the exchange rates. Still, there is a risk that you buy a paper in anticipation of walking on your next Turn, and then someone Farkles or somesuch. The Sunday Paper should perhaps be more expensive - and have some additional use? : :But nobody ever really uses Walking, so it's not that much of an :issue. Perhaps it might be worthwhile concentrating on making :Walking more usable... : :Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time, : Ah, but we only have an hour... Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 7 07:22:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9933 invoked by uid 7770); 7 May 1999 14:22:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 14:22:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19596 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:21:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13903 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:21:34 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id PAA03148; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:21:32 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905071421.PAA03148@u...> Date: 07 May 99 14:59:42 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-374-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 07-May-99 13:44 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Belated Proposal musings... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Proposal 722 - Funny Peculiar [Amendment] >> >>Amend Rule 0.9.4 (Fish and Fowl) to add the following award: >> >> Lyttleton Trophy Audience Appreciation Award >> >> Awarded to the Player whose Proposal or Proposal title garners the >> greatest number of remarks appreciative of it humour posted to the >> Discussion Lounge from the other Players. >Hmm. Do you really feel enthusiastic enough to total these up every >Week, Dunx? Well, we'll see - since such acclamation tends (or would tend) to pop up in Proposal comments that I always read anyway, they shouldn't be too time consuming to collect. I was wondering about marking acclamations in the table of votes cast... hmm. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 7 23:11:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22885 invoked by uid 7770); 8 May 1999 06:11:27 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 May 1999 06:11:27 -0000 Received: from opus (p440-037.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.203.37]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23107; Sat, 8 May 1999 08:11:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <010801be9919$7e0a7800$11ca52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" , "Duncan Ellis (Dunx)" Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:09:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: 711 and 712 thoughts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have read your comments. Some of them are quite relevant - in fact most of them. Therefore I'd like 711 and 712 to be rolled over into next week. Those are the points that I'll look into: 1. 42 minutes 2. Baker Street 3. 'Go to Jail' 4. Little reason to walk 5. Garbage vs. Lost Property Office I'd like to transfer 1 Kudo to each player who has re-submitted eir vote as a result of my updates. If I have too few Kudos too do that - well, thay say it's the thought that counts... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 9 02:35:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27253 invoked by uid 7770); 9 May 1999 09:35:44 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 May 1999 09:35:44 -0000 Received: from opus (p129-37.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.203.37]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02752 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 11:35:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01fa01be99ff$315951c0$8cdd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:18:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just looked at Garden Nomic's rules, and got inspired. I don't know about London, but in Copenhagen the weather _does_ influence the train service. And I seem to remember that the Thames became so clean (relatively speaking), that people actually _were fishing_ in it. [Fishing] might be an option at Water Stations (the strings: water, wharf, harbour, embankment, island, bridge, shore, ditch, brook). One might need a Fishing Hat... Btw, why isn't Theydon Bois a Plant Station? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 9 19:17:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22389 invoked by uid 7770); 10 May 1999 02:17:47 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 1999 02:17:47 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA03470; Mon, 10 May 1999 12:17:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003329; Mon, 10 May 99 12:17:29 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 10 May 1999 12:17:20 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:17:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday, 9 May 1999 19:18, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Btw, why isn't Theydon Bois a Plant Station? This is a new one on me. Why should it be (not meaning to be impolite - I don't see it in the name)? Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 9 19:44:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2265 invoked by uid 7770); 10 May 1999 02:44:46 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 1999 02:44:46 -0000 Received: from opus (p142-44.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.206.108]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA16830 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 04:44:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003f01be9a8e$f2238440$6cce52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 04:30:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: :On Sunday, 9 May 1999 19:18, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: :> Btw, why isn't Theydon Bois a Plant Station? : :This is a new one on me. Why should it be (not meaning to be impolite - I :don't see it in the name)? : :Have fun, Bois is French for tree. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 9 20:43:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29231 invoked by uid 7770); 10 May 1999 03:43:18 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 1999 03:43:18 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA15252; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:43:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015066; Mon, 10 May 99 13:43:06 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:42:56 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:42:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, 10 May 1999 12:30, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Bois is French for tree. Ah. You've doubled my knowledge of French. :-) Thanks, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 10 03:14:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17592 invoked by uid 7770); 10 May 1999 10:14:05 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 1999 10:14:05 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05408 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:13:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA32342 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:08:58 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id LAA28813; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:08:57 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905101008.LAA28813@u...> Date: 10 May 99 11:07:07 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-379-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 09-May-99 10:18 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I don't know about London, but in Copenhagen the weather _does_ influence >the train service. Not so much, here - it is underground after all (well, certain parts of it are...). The mainline services are a lot worse for that kind of thing: leaves on the line, frost on the rails, even the wrong kind of snow (it was apparently too powdery and got into places it shouldn't have). >And I seem to remember that the Thames became so clean (relatively >speaking), that people actually _were fishing_ in it. >[Fishing] might be an option at Water Stations (the strings: water, wharf, >harbour, embankment, island, bridge, shore, ditch, brook). >One might need a Fishing Hat... Go for it! I await with baited breath (sic) for what you can do with the fish, boots and black rib nobblers that might be caught in the Thames. >Btw, why isn't Theydon Bois a Plant Station? Because this is London rather than Paris, and it just isn't pronounced like that: Bois is spoken to rhyme with 'toys'. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Mon May 10 04:43:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 17814 invoked by uid 7770); 10 May 1999 11:43:14 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 1999 11:43:14 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 May 1999 12:43:14 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:43:04 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <199905061323.OAA23391@u...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 4 - Updated Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >:Is such a minimal-impact rule worth having in the game, then, do you > think? > > >Definitely yes. > > That's broadly the conclusion I've come to - although this rule in itself > might not be useful, the things it triggers might be. I think the idea is the important catalyst, to be honest - that this Proposal and its discussion has started people thinking about night-time Actions, and that some Proposals of greater usefulness are likely to be produced as a result. I fear that most of them would start by removing the changes made by Ole's Proposal, though. A case of an excellent idea but a questionable implementation, is all. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Mon May 10 14:24:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2932 invoked by uid 7770); 10 May 1999 21:24:42 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 1999 21:24:42 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10gxXW-000NGr-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 10 May 1999 21:24:43 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:22:52 GMT Message-ID: <37374cfd.273504@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: New Player - Snow Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: I'd like you to welcome Snow, who has expressed a wish to join. E's = already contributed the maximum Kudos score. Round of applause, please. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 10 21:24:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10648 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 04:24:21 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 04:24:21 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA21036; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:24:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma020785; Tue, 11 May 99 14:23:47 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:23:36 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:23:26 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, 10 May 1999 20:07, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > Not so much, here - it is underground after all (well, certain parts of it > are...). The mainline services are a lot worse for that kind of thing: leaves > on the line, frost on the rails, even the wrong kind of snow (it was > apparently too powdery and got into places it shouldn't have). I've often wondered about this. _Leaves_ on the line? I can understand frost, and even stretch my mind to the wrong kind of snow (having read Mawson's biography, snow is not just the fat fluffy stuff you see in high temperatures). But how can leaves on the line incapacitate a modern train? Awaiting with baited breath, knees and groin protector, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Mon May 10 22:16:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1903 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 05:16:41 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 05:16:41 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10h4uG-0000o9-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 05:16:40 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:14:49 GMT Message-ID: <3737bb79.295952@p...> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I've often wondered about this. _Leaves_ on the line? I can understand >frost, and even stretch my mind to the wrong kind of snow (having read >Mawson's biography, snow is not just the fat fluffy stuff you see in = high >temperatures). But how can leaves on the line incapacitate a modern = train? This excuse was met with some incredulity. "It's these tree things, you see - very tricky fellows. Every autumn they= shed their leaves! Who would have thought it, eh? And when so many of the = blessed things have been planted right by the rail lines... well, it's amazing we= didn't think of it earlier really... but some of the leaves drop on the rails. = Then it'll rain, and the leaves turn all slippery and slimy so the poor = trains, bless 'em, can't get any traction. Tragic. "Anyway, we've solved the problem now - we've swan down all the trees. = That'll slow the ubggers down." Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 10 22:28:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6846 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 05:28:41 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 05:28:41 -0000 Received: from opus (p439-170.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.202.170]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA21427 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:28:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <006c01be9b6f$02b5da20$aaca8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 06:55:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul asked: : :I've often wondered about this. _Leaves_ on the line? I can understand :frost, and even stretch my mind to the wrong kind of snow (having read :Mawson's biography, snow is not just the fat fluffy stuff you see in high :temperatures). But how can leaves on the line incapacitate a modern train? : Because leaves, when decomposing, becomes a quite soapy substance. Since the only friction between train and track comes from the weight of the train, adding a soapy substance (leaves or snow) changes the entire math. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 10 22:42:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12509 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 05:42:27 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 05:42:27 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA08115; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:42:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma008050; Tue, 11 May 99 15:42:12 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:42:02 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:42:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Thoughts and odd ideas Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, 11 May 1999 15:15, dunx@l... [SMTP:dunx@l...] wrote: > This excuse was met with some incredulity. It makes you wonder why they haven't rigged either some sort of scrubber/shunt in front of the traction wheels that can be activated when leaves actually are on the line, or a reserve drive train that's some type of rubber wheel that can be lowered onto the track independently of the main wheels. But then what do I know? > "Anyway, we've solved the problem now - we've swan down all the trees. > That'll slow the ubggers down." Don't you just ahte trnsapositnio erorrs? Ahve fnu, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 10 22:46:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14258 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 05:46:39 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 05:46:39 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA09757; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:46:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma009692; Tue, 11 May 99 15:46:25 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:46:16 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:46:04 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: MC: A (single) player's perspective Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, 10 May 1999 20:07, Dunx (Duncan Ellis) [SMTP:DELLIS@u...] wrote: > I await with baited breath (sic) for what you can do with the fish, boots > and black rib nobblers that might be caught in the Thames. This causes me to ponder much on the nature of MC. If you'll indulge me somewhat and bear with me, I hope we'll both come out of this with an idea of where I'm heading. The 1997/8/9 WMCC games were played in the very comfortable surroundings provided by Rob at York. The IMCS workmen must have spent a great deal of time labouring over the floor alone - the brass inlays in the wood, with the various line colours in enamel, the beautifully precise symbols, the way MC was subtly silver where everything else was brassy-gold - it all spoke to me of the great respect the IMCS and the competitors have of the game. The leather-upholstered player seats, with their token racks, small pegging boards, and a Trellis Crescent-Master 2000 tastefully reworked in brass and oak, were luxury. Even the spectator's galleries, with their comfortable chairs with plenty of refreshments and old MC Player magazines, added to the prestigious feel of the game. Now, this is all a fiction - a little farrago of illusion I allow myself to play to the standard I believe is expected of me. But, correspondingly, the idea of players sitting there with token racks, pegging boards, pondering over the board as white-gloved assistants move the pieces around with miniature trowels is very much a part of my game of MC. Occasionally, one requests a point of order from the adjudicator, who quietly types on his keyboard and retrieves the relevant pages from the IMCS database. Players make notes on the pads provided, and (rarer these days) enjoy a pipe or glass of their favourite tipple, and mention occasional encouragements to their opponents. By now you're asking me what I'm talking about. My point is that MC is played by people sitting around a board, with a small number of aids (token racks, etc) but otherwise (generally) sedate. It is not a game played by real people tramping across the wilds of London, nor is it a game where people just yell out any old station on the LU. In general it involves moving linearly (i.e. progressing through stations sequentially) but not all the time - and the higher-order plays, such as Hodgkinson's Progression, Pickerings and Paradoxes (pardon my alliteration), generally move over the board in a much more complex pattern. What I'm noticing is that there are an increasing number of proposals that do not fit in with my illusion. I don't have a little doll sitting in front of me with miniature clothing, or an IMCS-embossed notepad with a stylised human to annotate; nor does one need the Trellis Crescent-Master 2000 for all but the more difficult strunts and mappings. Walking serves the purpose of moving when other movement is disabled - it does not simulate pulling on the boots and mac and trudging the streets. Therefore, I find it difficult to envision these new Proposals in my perception of playing MC. This is not to say they're useless. I praise Ole and everyone else who has made MN such an original and thought-provoking game. It takes about as much time to make a move in MN as it used to take to play a PBM move - and people charged money for that priveledge! So in a way this letter is recognising that I have a somewhat old-fashioned and anachronistic view of proceedings. But this is where I'm coming from, and this is the basis on which I propose new Rules for the game and on which I vote. I guess my main point here is that I want to know if other people feel a similar feeling. We've already been ransacking the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia - should we make a few more fundamental changes to the way play is performed? Or am I in an evolutionary dead end? Your thoughts welcomed, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon May 10 23:12:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24533 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 06:12:47 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 06:12:47 -0000 Received: from [24.95.43.37] (dhcp9543037.columbus.rr.com [24.95.43.37]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA02449 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 02:17:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:15:25 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: MC: A (single) player's perspective Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >But this is where I'm coming from, and this is the basis on which I propose >new Rules for the game and on which I vote. I guess my main point here is >that I want to know if other people feel a similar feeling. We've already >been ransacking the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia - should we make a few more >fundamental changes to the way play is performed? Or am I in an >evolutionary dead end? I have to say I agree... I've always pictured MC as being the sort of game played in a Gentleman's Club, by Bertie Wooster or Holmes' brother Mycroft, with port and cigars and nice brass-edged tokens. Or maybe you could find a game on the other side of the tracks, played by unemployed steel-mill workers in the back room of a seedy bar, shouting their bets and marking score on the wall with a hunk of chalk. "_Amersham_?!? Yeh _bastard_!" But always a _boardgame_, not a city-wide scavenger hunt. On the old Delphi server, there was a terrific short piece of fiction describing James Bond defeating Goldfinger at Crescent instead of blackjack. I thought I had saved a copy of it, but I can't find it. Pity... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue May 11 02:25:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 386 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 09:25:10 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 09:25:10 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 May 1999 10:25:11 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:25:00 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: MC: A (single) player's perspective Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul said:- > What I'm noticing is that there are an increasing number of proposals that > do not fit in with my illusion. I don't have a little doll sitting in front > of me with miniature clothing, or an IMCS-embossed notepad with a stylised > human to annotate; nor does one need the Trellis Crescent-Master 2000 for > all but the more difficult strunts and mappings. Walking serves the purpose > of moving when other movement is disabled - it does not simulate pulling on > the boots and mac and trudging the streets. Therefore, I find it difficult > to envision these new Proposals in my perception of playing MC. As mumbled, I was very hesitant in the earlier days to include Edible Possessions, since they seemed too much of a step away from smoking-jacket Crescent - it's rather hard to picture Ruttsborough pushing four Bronzes back into the Token Pool and requesting a Lukewarm Burger (actual or symbolised) from the referee. However, I suspect our game would probably lose a lot of its current atmosphere if we replaced food with "Velocity Increase Counters" and Pigeons with "Park Release Tickets", or simply repealed these elements because they didn't look right. Having some sort of real-life parallel makes it easier to see what's going on; although in normal Crescent it's perfectly reasonable for a player to cry "Aha, I'll cross-hatch the Northern Line with a few Shifflings, and use couple of temporary Akers-Douglas Podumes to block eastbound traffic on the Circle!", I'm not sure that such tactics would be implementable under our Nomic ruleset; it'd require far too much abstract reference, with players having to remember the purposes of items with unhelpful names. On the other hand, I can't imagine a game of Crescent that didn't have Striling and Huffing and Maelberg Variances; the arcane jargon is a very pleasing aspect of the game, and making such things simpler or more "realistic" (as the disasterous "Ramsay Street" attempted to) would be far from welcome. There's obviously a line in the sand somewhere - I'm just not sure where. The proposed Garments seem very borderline in their attempts to create Possessions which behave "realistically"; it may or may not be better to have a "Token Scoop" instead of Gloves, a "Murchison Targeter" in place of Spectacles, and whatever. But, then again, these don't really work either - if I'm sat playing at a board in the Diogenes Club, I don't expect to have to gather a little pile of objects in front of me to keep track of the current game state. Maybe I can stack a few tokens on the board as an aide memoire, but little else should be necessary; Mornington Crescent is a game that can be played and enjoyed over the radio, after all. We don't need Samantha to latch a yellow metal contraption to Tim Brooke-Taylor's ankle to remind the audience that he's in Spoon, we just remember it. And I think that's probably the key, really - that we need some memorable shorthand to show that Dunx has been Knidded, that Ole has paid the Tokens that allow him to pick up an extra Token from each Station; our solution of "Possessions" seems entirely reasonable. If we were playing face-to-face then we probably could survive without keeping track of these, but shifting the game to a medium where a round can take upwards of a week, we need some way to make note of the state of things. And if we're going to have "real life" aspects to help us keep track, we might as well implement amusing or interesting side-effects. On reflection, although Garments are taking our version of the game a little further away from board-playable Crescent (although we've had Hats for absolutely ages, of course), they add a lot to email- playable Crescent - by grouping them as items of apparel rather than a mess of disparate Token Scoops and Murchison Targeters, they give us the ability to impose general rules for them (you must Wear them to gain their bonus, you can't Wear more than one of the same type of Garment, etc.), which is a Good Thing to these eyes. Over-realism is, as we've said, just going to get boring, but I think we'll notice that boundary when we're in danger of hitting it. Wondering how much of that made sense, so soon before lunch, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 11 05:03:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 247 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 12:02:58 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 12:02:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p407-057.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.215.57]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04653 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:02:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002201be9ba6$18807220$39d752c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:01:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: MC: A (single) player's perspective Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote (after a lot of very relevant thoughts): :We've already :been ransacking the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia - should we make a few more :fundamental changes to the way play is performed? Or am I in an :evolutionary dead end? I think the main element in our differences here is minimalism vs. maximalism. The minimalist tends to want few, simple rules, while the maximalist wants all the add-ons and options. The Nomic-mechanisms tend to favour the maximalist approach, I believe. I see two ways of accomodating both approaches: 1) Make a minimal set of standard rules, and move all the 'fluff' to various variant rulesets, or 2) Keep the standard rules as they are now, and make a minimalist variant. I believe both ways are practicable. But we have to make a choice if we want both minimalism and maximalism satisfied. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue May 11 08:07:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 13442 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 15:07:53 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 15:07:52 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 May 1999 16:07:53 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:07:41 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <002201be9ba6$18807220$39d752c3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: MC: A (single) player's perspective Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > :We've already > :been ransacking the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia - should we make a few more > :fundamental changes to the way play is performed? Or am I in an > :evolutionary dead end? > > I think the main element in our differences here is minimalism vs. > maximalism. I don't think so - it's more a matter of whether we have Gloves and Socks and Fishing in the Thames, or Splinks and Jessop Markers and Pickering over the Diagonals. Real-life materialism versus the abstract rules of "proper" Crescent. > The Nomic-mechanisms tend to favour the maximalist approach, I believe. Not really; I've played a few (mostly face-to-face) minimalist Nomics. It depends entirely on the players, as does everything else. > 2) Keep the standard rules as they are now, and make a minimalist > variant. > > I believe both ways are practicable. But we have to make a choice if we want > both minimalism and maximalism satisfied. I think a minimalist variant might be interesting, shorn of the more frivolous Actions and Possessions, but as we've discovered in the foreign-Map games, there's an awful lot of "Oh, hang on, we can't use Freem Clamps because we're not using Zones" problems when you try this. It's really a matter of deciding whether to carry on with the real-life aspects of our Crescent rules, or to backpedal a bit and forge ahead with semi-random abstract jargon. (Although I suspect that, being in a democracy, we've already got what most people are in favour of.) Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 11 15:17:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28592 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 22:17:44 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 22:17:44 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10hKqH-000ARg-4S for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 22:17:38 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:15:46 GMT Message-ID: <3740aaaa.6935408@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 5 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Five -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 723 - Lost Property -Renumber the Blonking rule (1.7.48) into Section 1.10 -If Proposal 712 passes, amend the final paragraph of that Rule to: "The Blonked Player loses a single Token or Possession, chosen by the Blonking Player: this Token or Possession is put into the Lost&Found box. Tokens may be lost regardless of whether the Player has a Money Belt." -Also add to the Lost&Found rule from Proposal 712 if it passes - when it describes the effects of being "Caught Picking Rags", this should be amended to: "The Player is moved straight to Tower Hill, must play a move of "Pass" with no Actions on eir next Turn, and loses all of eir Possessions: these are placed in the Lost Property Box, any surplus (chosen at random) being discarded." -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 724 - All The Pegs In One Basket (Renumbering) -Renumber Rule 1.7.41 (Pegs Tie) into Section 1.11 with a new numbering of 1.11.5. -The existing Rule 1.11.5 (Sanctuary) is itself to be moved to 1.11.7 -and the current Rule 1.7.29 (Collection Plate) is to be deleted and its entire text added to the "Sanctuary" Rule -and the Actions Table to be updated accordingly in all three cases. {Comments: the Pegs ought to be together, and the Holy Station rules can be all in one place - Holy Stations as a category seem to be special enough to warrant this, and in the "Restricted Opening" rule it already explains that Holy Stations aren't open on Sundays unless the correct Action is played.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 725 - Just Passing Through... -Amend Rule 1.12.3 to the following: During a Player's turn, the Home Stations of all other Players are considered Blocked. A Player may perform the Action of [Toll to ]: the cited Player gains Tokens equal to the cost of the Action, and eir Home Station is then considered to be Closed rather than Blocked for the rest of the Actioning Player's Turn. The Action of [Rent to ] may be performed instead: this works in exactly the same way as above, but the cited Player's Home Station is considered Open instead of Blocked or Closed. -In the Action Tables, amend the cost of the Toll action to 4 Bronze and add a [Rent to ] Action with a cost of 8 Bronze. {Comment: It ought to cost more to actually land on the station than to merely pass through... hence the "Toll" leaves it closed, but trains can pass through, and the "Rent" leaves the home open to the honoured guest to land in and stay until eir next turn.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 726 - *PECK!* (Spot the Ostrich Ruleset) -Add the following to Rule 4.3.2: If the Ostrich ever shares a Station and Line with another Player, the Ostrich may play the Action of "[Pecking ]". The Player is immediately moved to a Wild Station in another Quadrant, eir LV is reduced to zero, and the Player holding the Ostrich Stick may take one Token or Possession from the Pecked Player. Only the Ostrich may Peck, and no Rule preventing aggressive Actions or expenditure of Tokens (red or otherwise)may prevent a Peck. Action (to be added to the table in 4.3.2): [Pecking ] Post-Move, cost 2 Red. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 727 - Token claiming and dropping... -Remove "started eir move at" from the list of Stations at which a Token may be claimed or dropped in Rules 1.14.3 and 1.14.4 -Remove the "or adjacent Quadrant" from Rule 1.4.19: it should now read "it cannot be in the same Quadrant as the Player's final location." {Comments: (1) - this would otherwise allow players to collect two tokens from a Stack in one visit, one upon arrival and the other upon leaving. (2) the current implementation is broken: what happens if the player is in Quadrant 0 where all other Quadrants are adjacent? Then, under the current rules, the Token cannot be dropped anywhere... I can see why it was changed from the implementation that I am to proposing to change it back to, and I have a suspicion that that change predates Quadrant 0. But with Quadrant 0 in existence, it doesn't work.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 728 - Pachisi Crescent The &&&-delimited is a Proposal for a Variant. It could be argued that it belongs in Section 4, Other Games, but since MC is the goal, I have put it in Section 2, Variants. &&& /------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------\ SECTION 2.x - Pachisi Crescent \------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Game Each Player has four Pieces, numbered 1 to 4. All Pieces begin the game in an off-Map pool of Pieces. Each Player may Move one of eir Pieces in eir Turn (if e is at all = able to Move one of eir Pieces). The first Player to Move all eir Pieces to Mornington Crescent wins the game. Rule 2.x.2 - Moves A Piece can only move to Mornington Crescent if it has visited the Home Stations of all the Players, beginning and ending with the = Piece's own Home Station. A Piece Moving to Mornington Crescent is removed from the game. Rule 2.x.3 - Line Velocity All Pieces belonging to the same Player have the same LV. Rule 2.x.4 - Actions The Action "[Opening MC]" costs 1 Bronze Token. The Action "[Toll to ]" is free. The Action "[Home]" is only legal if the performing Piece is in the off-Map pool. Rule 2.x.4.1 - Knuff of it! = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Knuffing ] Neut ----- 20 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If a Piece shares a Station and Line with another Piece, e may perform the Neutral Action of Knuffing. Thus: Rushton-1 : Latimer Road (HC) [Knuffing Garden-1] A Piece which has been Knuffed is removed from the Map and placed in the off-Map pool of Pieces. The Knuffed Piece's record of visited Home Stations is deleted. [Knuffing] may not be performed on any Piece owned by the Knuffing Player. [Knuffing] may not be performed on any Piece sharing a Station with another Piece controlled by the same Player. [Knuffing] may not be performed on any Piece occupying a Holy Station, unless performed as a Pre-Move Action. Rule 2.x.5 - States of Play Circle Line is always in its Clockwise State, so the [Circle: ] Actions are void. Rule 2.x.5 - Home Stations Each Player has a Home Station, which is Home Station for all eir = Pieces. The Home Station must be one of these: +------------------------+---------------+ | Home Station | Abbreviation | +------------------------+---------------+ | Amersham | Am | | Harrow & Wealdstone | HW | | Stanmore | St | | Edgware | Ed | | High Barnet | HB | | Cockfosters | Co | | Walthamstow Central | WC | | Epping | Ep | | Upminster | Up | | Beckton | Be | | Island Gardens | IG | | New Cross | NC | | Brixton | Br | | Morden | Mo | | Wimbledon | Wi | | Richmond | Ri | | Heathrow Terminal 4 | H4 | | Ealing Broadway | EB | | Uxbridge | Ux | | West Ruislip | WR | +------------------------+---------------+ The list is a loop, where West Ruislip is considered to be just above Amersham. No two Players can have the same Home Station. When performing the [Home: ] Action, the Player shall choose a Home Station at least X Stations away from any already chosen Home Stations, as determined by the list of available Home Stations. X is 7, initially. If no Station is available, X is diminished by 2, and a new attempt is made. Rule 2.x.5.1 - Visiting Home Stations There is a section on the GSD used to note the Home Stations visited by each Piece. {Example: Home Stations: Rushton: New Cross, Garden: Harrow & Wealdstone, Trellis: Walthamstow Central, Cryer: Heathrow Terminal 4 +----------+------------------+--+ | Piece | Visited |MC| +----------+------------------+--+ |Rushton-1 | NC,H4 | | |Rushton-2 | NC,H4,HW,WC,NC | | |Rushton-3 | | | |Rushton-4 | NC,H4 | | |Garden-1 | | | |Garden-2 | HW,WC | | |Garden-3 | HW,WC | | |Garden-4 | HW,WC,NC | | |Trellis-1 | WC,NC,H4,HW,WC |MC| |Trellis-2 | WC,NC,H4 | | |Trellis-3 | WC,NC | | |Trellis-4 | WC,NC | | |Cryer-1 | H4,HW,WC | | |Cryer-2 | H4,HW | | |Cryer-3 | | | |Cryer-4 | | | +----------+------------------+--+ (end of example)} A Piece is said to visit a Home Station if the Station is added to the Piece's list of visited Home Stations. A Home Station is added to the Piece's list of visited Home Stations if the Piece: - begins a Turn there, - ends a Turn there, or - passes through the Station. The Home Stations can only be visited in the order indicated on the list of possible Home Stations, and beginning and ending with the Home Station of the owning Player. No Home Station can be visited more than once (unless the visiting Piece has been Knuffed between the visits). &&& { Speaker's Comment: pachisi is also known as ludo. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 729 - Yodeling I propose Amending: Rule 1.7.20 - Busking A Player may perform the action 'Busking' provided that Game Time is currently during Peak Hours and - e is carrying a Musical Possession, in which case e may use the instrument, and/or - e is at a Hill Station, in which case e may Yodel. The Player must specify in eir comments which instrument e is using, = if any. A Player successfully performing this Action gains a number of Tokens depending on the type of musical instrument used, as follows: * Yodeling - 1 Bronze * Harmonica - 3 Bronze ....[rest of current rule unchanged] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 730 - Size Matters I propose a new rule: Rule 1.4.x - Size Matters Possessions come in four sizes: * Small, * Medium, * Big, and * Too Big. Unless otherwise defined, Possessions are Medium-sized. A Player may carry any amount of Small and Medium-sized Possessions. A Player can carry no more than two Big or Too Big Possessions, including at most one Too Big Possession. A Player carrying a Too Big Possession may not perform any Standard = Move. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 731 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] I want to walk in the night! In "Rule 1.13.1 - The Richard Whiteley Experience", replace: Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. with Between 0000 and 0500, no trains are running. Therefore, no Standard Moves can be made during this time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 732 - Lost and Found [Multiple] The ^^^-delimited text is the proposal, named 'Lost & Found'. It consists of two proposed new rules and three insertions in tables. The %%%-delimited text takes care of a couple of potential loose ends. ^^^ Rule 1.7.x - Lost & Found London Transport's Lost Property Office is placed at Paddington. A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e adds 5 to eir roll. The next Player to take eir Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1-44 | Nothing | | | 45-52 | | Accused of Theft # | | 53-54 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 55 | Velocity Bomb | | | 56 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 57 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 58 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 59-60 | Spectacles | Garment | | 61-62 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 63 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 64-65 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 66 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 67 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 68 | Casiotone | Musical | | 69 | Drum | Musical | | 70 | Guitar | Musical | | 71 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 72 | Saxophone | Musical | | 73 | Violin | Musical | | 74 | Piano | Musical, Too Big | | 75 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 76 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 77 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 78 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 79 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 80 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 81 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 82 | Book | Papery | | 83-84 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 85 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 86 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 87 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 88 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 89 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 90 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 91 | Token | 1 Silver | | 92 | Token | 1 Gold | | >92 | | First item in Lost & Found Box | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill and loses one Bronze Token, if e has any. If a Possession is Lost, it is immediately transported to the Lost Property Office. The Actioning Player places the Possession in the Lost & Found Box on = the GSD. If there is no room in the box, e must remove one or more of the items already in the box. Those items are Destroyed. The Actioning Player may place items in the Lost & Found Box, if -there is room in the box and -no Lost Possession is waiting to be placed in the box. The Lost & Found Box is conceptually a queue, where items are added in the rear end and removed from the front end. The Lost & Found Box begins empty: +Lost & Found -----------------------------------------------------+ | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Rule 1.4.x - Read All About It! A Newspaper is a Papery posession that costs 1 Bronze Token. When a Player purchases a Newspaper, it is 'stamped' with the current game day. This makes it look like "'s Paper" in the Luggage - for instance, an Newspaper purchased at 11:30 on a Thursday would look like "Thursday's Paper". Newspapers that have the same stamp as the current game day are said to be Today's, and Newspapers that have a different day are said to be Yesterday's. While a Player owns Today's Paper, e pays nothing to perform the [Walking] Action. While a Player owns Yesterday's Paper, e pays = nothing to perform the [Walking] Action, but automatically discards the Paper upon performing that Action. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Finding] Post x.x.x 30 -2 Br varies +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Piano | 9 Br | Musical, Too Big! | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ [as bottom item] * Piano - 1 Blue, 2 Red, 1 Bronze, 2 Green %%% Special issues: If the 'Garment' category is not defined, it shall be deleted in the = table. If the Money Belt is no more, it shall be deleted in the table, and the = roll of 23 shall produce a pair of gloves (thus changing the roll of 22 to be 22-23). %%% ^^^ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 733 - And you run and you run to catch up to the sun... = (Amendment) Rewrite Rule 1.13.3 (Carol Vorderman's Revenge) to: {The main new bit - variable length moves} The duration of a Player's Piece Normal movement is calculated by adding = all relevant times from the following table, rounded up to the nearest five minutes: +--------------------------------------------------+----------+ | Movement of Piece | Duration | +--------------------------------------------------+----------+ | Moving through three stations or less | 10 mins | | Moving through four, five or six stations | 15 mins | | Moving through seven or eight stations | 20 mins | | Moving through nine or more stations | 25 mins | | Every station above ten moved through | +3 mins | | Each change of line | +5 mins | | Crossing the river | +2 mins | | Changing more than two zones | +5 mins | +--------------------------------------------------+----------+ =46or example, a move from Southfields to Bond Street, changing to the Piccadilly at South Kensington and to the Jubilee at Green Park, would = take (25 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 5) rounded =3D 40 minutes. Special Moves, and other Actions which do not move the Piece sequentially through stations, do not use this table and take only ten minutes. {And now for the more traditional part of the Rule} All Actions have a duration of ten minutes unless otherwise specified. Actions and Piece movement occur in sequence such that the total duration= of a Player's Turn is calculated by adding the durations of the individual components. Payment of Token forfeits and receipt of Token bonuses shall be = considered instantaneous, that is having no duration. A Move of Pass or Timeout = shall similarly have no duration. {And a final fix at the end - I believe Kevan's point about a move being invalid if an Action or Move is done at a time which is illegal (e.g. = moving to a station before it's open) is not yet remedied.} If at any point during a Turn the total duration of all performed Moves = and Actions exceeds that of the allotted period of Game Time for that Turn, = at that point, that Turn shall be considered Illegal. Likewise, each Action= or Move takes place at the point of time given by Game Time, and thus is = judged for its legality at that point in time of the Turn. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 734 - Time and Motion Sickness [Amendment] Adjust all Actions which have a duration of more than ten minutes - with = the sole exception of Busking - to have a duration of ten minutes. { Whether playing a Turn or checking an opponent's, it's a pain having to look up which Actions are twenty minutes and which ten, and it's not = even slightly intuitive. Busking seems to be the only exception, in that its copious Token benefit should only be awarded if you're willing to sacrifice most of the rest of your Turn. I can see little need to keep = the other long Actions, though. An intentionally over-dramatic solution, I confess, but perhaps the = best. I await comment. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 735 - Heading Them Off At The Pass [Amendment] In the Token Collection Table, replace the Pass reward with:- +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing 'Pass' as eir Move | +2 Red or | | | +2 Black or | | | +1 Blue | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ { The Blue reward has been halved in light of the fact that two Blues can be exchanged for a Gold, and that - Blues being "rarer" - everyone = always goes for them unless they've a particular need for Reds or Blacks. This amendment should make it more of a decision. } ....and reword the non-Line-Change reward to:- +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing a non-Pass Move which did not | +1 Black | | involve a change of Line | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ { Clarifying that you don't get it for a Pass. } And trim all those extraneous "during a Move"s from the table, as well, actually (since the opening paragraph says "during eir Movement phase"). -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 736 - Stack 'em High, Watch 'em Rot [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.14.2 (Stack em High, Sell em Cheap). { A semi-random bit of repealing - the Rule giving prizes for certain arrangements of Tokens has never really been used much, leaves great potential for future abuse (potential which has shied me away from considering proposing any Stack-manipulation Actions), and is all rather too arbitrary to remember or realise very easily. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 737 - Plastic? Are You Kidding? [Amendment] { Busking for Plastic Tokens seems very strange, and not terribly popular either, if games so far are anything to go by. I suspect Busking would become more strategic if the gathered wealth could exchanged for Golds; here's a Proposal that amends appropriately, along with the ability to use multiple instruments in a - whisper it - slightly realistic fashion... } Reword Rule 1.7.20 (Busking) to:- A Player may perform the Action "[Busking]", provided that e is = carrying a Musical Possession and that Game Time is currently during Peak = Hours. Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains a number of Bronze Tokens according to the instrument(s) e is using. If the Player has more than one Musical Possession, e may use as many of these as e wishes, so long as the combined instruments do not require the use of more than two hands, two feet and a mouth. +-------------+---------------------+----------+ | Instrument | Body Parts Required | Reward | +-------------+---------------------+----------+ | Drum | One Hand or Foot | 2 Bronze | | Harmonica | Mouth | 3 Bronze | | Casiotone | One Hand | 4 Bronze | | Guitar | Two Hands | 5 Bronze | | Violin | Two Hands | 6 Bronze | | Saxophone | Two Hands and Mouth | 7 Bronze | +-------------+---------------------+----------+ If a Player is carrying a Silly Hat, e gains an additional Bronze = Token whenever e Busks. If the "[Wearing]" Action exists, replace "carrying" with "wearing" in the previous paragraph. Remove this paragraph from the ruleset, either way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 738 - Cunningly Fashioned Out Of Pure Green [Action] { Some overly bizarre nonsense for you. } = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Constructing Generator] Neut 1.7.x -2 Gr -2 Si [Generating Token] Neut 1.7.x -1 Gr Varies = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[Constructing Generator]" to put together a Token Generator; upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains such a Possession. Token Generators are powered by a single Pigeon, and require a small positive Charge to do their work - namely, converting a Green Token = into a Token of any other colour. If a Player is carrying a Token Generator, a Pigeon and has a Charge greater than zero, e may perform the Action "[Generating Token]" to gain a Token of any colour which Tokens can possibly be. Token Generators are rather heavy, however, and if a Player carrying = one ever has an LV greater than five, eir LV is immediately reduced to = five. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 11 15:17:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28637 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 22:17:49 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 22:17:49 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10hKqP-000ARg-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 22:17:45 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:15:54 GMT Message-ID: <3741aaba.6951831@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 5 - Voting Results for Week 4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 705 The Emperor's New Clothes 5 1 - 4 Passes 706 Timeout On The Grand Scale 5 1 - 4 Passes 707 You Have 10 Minutes... 5 1 - 4 Passes 708 Blocks, Impediments and Gaps 5 1 - 4 Passes 709 *Boing* 4 1 1 4 Passes 710 Token Table Change 4 1 1 4 Passes 711 Walking In The Night --- withdrawn --- 712 Lost and Found --- withdrawn --- 713 Ever-Rolling Stream 6 - - 4 Passes 714 Time Again 6 - - 4 Passes 715 A Pressing Special Need 6 - - 4 Passes 716 Quick Change 3 1 2 4 Passes 717 Slight CAMREC Rumblings 3 1 2 4 Passes 718 Uncharged 5 1 - 4 Passes 719 Listen Very Carefully... 4 1 1 4 Passes 720 Liquid Assets 5 1 - 4 Passes 721 Bear All 3 1 2 4 Passes 722 Funny Peculiar 4 1 1 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 705 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 706 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 707 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 708 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 709 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - AGA FOR - = -=20 710 (Ole) - FOR AGA - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - = -=20 711 (Ole) --- withdrawn --- 712 (Ole) --- withdrawn --- 713 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 714 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 715 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 716 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR FOR - = -=20 717 (Kevan) - FOR AGA - AGA PAS - FOR FOR - = -=20 718 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 719 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - AGA FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 720 (Dunx) - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 721 (Dunx) - PAS AGA - FOR FOR - AGA FOR - = -=20 722 (Dunx) - PAS AGA - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - = -=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 19 2 0 24 44 16 13 9 4 = 0 Halved: 9 1 12 22 6 4 2 = 0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +21 +0 +0 +24 +26 +4 +0 +0 = +0 AGA Votes: I -4 -0 -0 -1 -2 I -1 -0 -0 = +0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 +3 n +3 +3 +0 = +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -0 -9 a 0 -0 -0 = +0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 t 0 +0 +0 = +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 i 0 -0 -0 = +0 Digit/Pulse: v +5 +0 +0 +0 +5 v 0 +5 +0 = +0 e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +4 +6 0 +0 +0 = +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +1 +0 +0 +1 +0 -2 +0 +0 = +0 [a] = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +28 +3 +0 +31 +29 +4 +8 +0 = +0 Final: 11 37 4 0 43 51 16 10 12 2 = 0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] Ole's gift of +1 to those who had to recast (sorry Paul - you hadn't = voted at that point, so it hardly counts as recasting) [*] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (A Pressing Special Need): +3 CAMREC Cleanup Award - Kevan (Ever-Rolling Stream): +3 Mrs Trellis Award - Jonathan (The Emperor's New Clothes): = +4 (this would have gone to Ole's Prop 712, but it was = withdrawn) Clever Bear Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 11 15:17:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28678 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 22:17:52 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 22:17:52 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10hKqW-000ARg-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 22:17:52 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:16:01 GMT Message-ID: <3742ab7c.7146171@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 5 Ruleset Updates Delayed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The ruleset updates from the Week 4 Proposals will follow over the next = few days. I'm afraid it's just too late and I've had too horrible a day. Sorry. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 11 16:42:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10979 invoked by uid 7770); 11 May 1999 23:40:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 23:40:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p442-097.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.204.97]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14555 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 01:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <019001be9c07$71a07d80$0cc28e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:38:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Week 5 Ruleset Updates Delayed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: The ruleset updates from the Week 4 Proposals will follow over the next few days. I'm afraid it's just too late and I've had too horrible a day. Sorry. ### I guess it is 'Karma meets Murphy's Law'. Have a bad day, and you can be sure the players will adopt each and every rule change. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 01:49:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21830 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 08:49:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 08:49:02 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15390 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:48:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16096 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:48:50 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA03896; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:48:50 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905120848.JAA03896@u...> Date: 12 May 99 09:01:46 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-398-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 12-May-99 00:38 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Week 5 Ruleset Updates Delayed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I guess it is 'Karma meets Murphy's Law'. Have a bad day, and you can be > sure the players will adopt each and every rule change. LOL! Well, that's cheered me up - thanks. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 04:18:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25286 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 11:18:54 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 11:18:54 -0000 Received: from opus (p435-158.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.200.158]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07700 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:18:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002801be9c69$17b9bc20$9ec88e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:16:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: I looked around on the 'net, and found Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seemingly unimplemented MC-speak: Boxing out the F, J, O and W placings draws the partner into an elliptical progression north to south In weak positional play, it is vital to consolidate an already strong outer square, eg Pentonville Road In a straight rules game, it's inadmissible to transfer inversely, which is otherwise a powerful tactic Opening the triangle will block any of the three possible reverse draws and is usually played early in the game (before the Central Line has been quartered) so that the risk of a diagonal move is negligible, as is the possibility of quartering The lateral shift decisively breaks opponents' horizontal and vertical approaches. The A40 northbound used as a counter-play offers rear access to suburban bidding the Kerishni-Immanolo debate of 1923 Jean-Jacques Mariata's near fatal brush with Sir Arthur Kingstone-Blakely after the young but promising Frenchman accused the English grandmaster of cheating by playing his Tewkesbury Avenue out of turn, causing the aristocratic nobleman to set loose his hounds on Mariata's prize Juniper collection. A Queens Passage is almost always followed by a Kings Entry An Amersham Reversal into the Old Kent Road is so often worth more than just 2 in rent (10 with a house). And quite a bit on: http://www.inet.co.th/cyberclub/olarn/mc1.htm Great MC Players in History Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed May 12 05:06:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 14582 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 12:06:09 -0000 Received: from m4.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 12:06:09 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 May 1999 13:06:09 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:05:57 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <3740aaaa.6935408@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These voting comments aren't as good an idea as I thought they'd be; there's a large amount of pointlessness in not being able to respond to someone's criticism until after votes have been tallied... Someone said of my "Slight CAMREC Rumblings" Proposal (which passed anyway, but I'd like the chance to explain myself):- >Comments: [...] Otherwise, people will simply not ever move to MC as >there is no point in paying the cost (as it is not a winning station.) >Likewise, nobody would ever bother moving to MC in a Flag game if it >cost three gold tokens to enter for no bonus. As I thought I'd said somewhere, a three-Golds-to-enter Crescent has quite a huge strategic significance, even if you don't Win for Moving there; because the Game is geared to prevent Players from getting to the Crescent, it's a very safe place to hide. I'd strongly consider bothering to move, with Flag, to MC in a Flag game, on the basis that anyone after it would have to go to just as much bother. Likewise the Ostrich would do well to hide there, since its pursuers will have trouble getting in. It's also arguably necessary for the Ostrich variant; it'll be very easy to Pounce the Ostrich if e starts the game at a bog-standard Mornington Crescent and anyone can just wander in... >Proposal 725 - Just Passing Through... Hmm. Interesting idea, and I suppose it's a more intuitive use of the word "Toll". I'm not sure how often it'll be used (have we *ever* had a Toll paid?), but it's probably good to have around. >Proposal 726 - *PECK!* (Spot the Ostrich Ruleset) Not bad, although what happens if there isn't a Wild Station in another Quadrant? (And maybe we should provide some Kneepads...) >Proposal 727 - Token claiming and dropping... > >{Comments: (1) - this would otherwise allow players to collect two >tokens from a Stack in one visit, one upon arrival and the other upon >leaving. Hmm. Is that really such an awful thing? >(2) the current implementation is broken: what happens if the >player is in Quadrant 0 where all other Quadrants are adjacent? Then the spent Token gets destroyed, or at least that's how we've been playing it. Reading the rules, it doesn't actually specify where a Token goes if you can't place it... >I can >see why it was changed from the implementation that I am to proposing to >change it back to, and I have a suspicion that that change predates >Quadrant 0. But with Quadrant 0 in existence, it doesn't work.} Originally, of course, the rule was put in to avoid Players placing Tokens in a Quadrant next door, for collection during their next Move. If I remember correctly, we realised that this made Zone 1 rather too powerful, in that you could easily zip to and from opposite Quadrants, and I *think* this was why we came up with Quadrant Zero. Quadrant Zero Tokens being lost seems a reasonable solution, anyway; I think we just need to clarify this in the ruleset somewhere. >Proposal 728 - Pachisi Crescent An appealingly original game style, and I find it rather hard to picture it being played (and really can't remember much about Ludo except that it involves absolutely no skill at all); this may be one that we'll just have to try to see how it goes. I suspect that the four Pieces are going to make matters complicated, though; how much of a sacrifice it would be to reduce it to one Piece, I don't know. Hmm. >Proposal 729 - Yodeling An amusing image, although the fact that not all Hill Stations are actually on Hills (not to mention being, er, underground) does rather spoil it. This does clash with Proposal 737 (Plastic? Are You Kidding?) too, actually, since they both seek to adjust the same Rule... >Proposal 730 - Size Matters Probably worth having for the sake of future Proposals, I suppose. The phrase "a Too Big Possession" strikes as clumsy, though... >Proposal 731 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] > > Between 0000 and 0500, no trains are running. > Therefore, no Standard Moves can be made during this time. Hmm. An obvious and intriguing implementation, that. I suspect it will disrupt the game rather too much, though; even if everyone manages to get an hour's worth of Turn in, it's going to kick everyone's LV down to zero as they Walk or Wild or whatever. Advancing Game Time (and Farkling) becomes rather powerful; if someone's about to Win, just put Game Time into the hours of darkness and they're reduced to abnormal Moves. >Proposal 732 - Lost and Found [Multiple] > > A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action > of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. > > The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single > 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. > > If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between > 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e adds 5 to eir roll. Ah. Good one; you can Find stuff anywhere, but stand more chance of doing so at Paddington. Only +5 to the roll, though? And why can't you perform the Action outside of "working hours", elsewhere? >Proposal 733 - And you run and you run to catch up to the sun... (Amendment) Hmm. Horrible at first glance, but looking closer it's just a matter of checking your LV and a couple of other things. I see some appeal in this - that if you're charging around the board at foolish speeds, you can't do as many other things - but the mathematician in me wonders why your journey takes longer at higher speeds, and the non- mathematician in me quakes a little at the idea of having to add these things up every Turn, then take them into account for calculating Turn duration. Tish. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 05:08:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15814 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 12:08:45 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 12:08:45 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22726 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:08:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03739 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:08:03 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA10767; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:08:02 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905121208.NAA10767@u...> Date: 12 May 99 12:49:31 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-400-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 12-May-99 12:16 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: I looked around on the 'net, and found Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spiffing stuff, Ole! I'm sure I recognise some of those imprecations from an interview Graeme Garden gave when MC was reopened last year (was it so long ago?) but, as you= say, valuable information. The Great MC Players is splendid too - shame about the link back to Delphi, really. Oh well. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed May 12 10:04:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6632 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 17:04:24 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 17:04:24 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hcQg-000PcB-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:04:22 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:02:25 GMT Message-ID: <373ab392.466503@p...> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan wrote: >These voting comments aren't as good an idea as I thought they'd be; >there's a large amount of pointlessness in not being able to respond >to someone's criticism until after votes have been tallied... Hmm - I see what you mean. Are people saying things in Voting Comments that they would never say = publicly? Is the anonymity good or ill? Responses welcome; repeals more so. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 10:49:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2172 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 17:49:27 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 17:49:27 -0000 Received: from opus (p124-44.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.199.236]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA29332 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:49:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00ab01be9c9f$a727f760$9ec88e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:48:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :>Proposal 728 - Pachisi Crescent : :An appealingly original game style, and I find it rather hard to picture :it being played (and really can't remember much about Ludo except that :it involves absolutely no skill at all); this may be one that we'll just :have to try to see how it goes. I suspect that the four Pieces are going :to make matters complicated, though; how much of a sacrifice it would be :to reduce it to one Piece, I don't know. Hmm. : Perhaps four pieces is too much. Two might be better (like a permanent bifurcation), but I'd like to see this playtested first. :>Proposal 729 - Yodeling : :An amusing image, although the fact that not all Hill Stations are :actually on Hills (not to mention being, er, underground) does rather :spoil it. This does clash with Proposal 737 (Plastic? Are You Kidding?) :too, actually, since they both seek to adjust the same Rule... : Whaddya mean??? Of course Hill Stations are on Hills. Too bad we have no Alp Stations :-) The clashing is unfortunate. There is also a clash between 'Lost & Found' and 'Plastic? Are you kidding?'. :>Proposal 730 - Size Matters : :Probably worth having for the sake of future Proposals, I suppose. The :phrase "a Too Big Possession" strikes as clumsy, though... : I tried to find a synonym for 'too big', but they wouldn't step forward... :>Proposal 731 - Walking In The Night [Amendment] :> :> Between 0000 and 0500, no trains are running. :> Therefore, no Standard Moves can be made during this time. : :Hmm. An obvious and intriguing implementation, that. I suspect it will :disrupt the game rather too much, though; even if everyone manages to :get an hour's worth of Turn in, it's going to kick everyone's LV down :to zero as they Walk or Wild or whatever. Advancing Game Time (and :Farkling) becomes rather powerful; if someone's about to Win, just :put Game Time into the hours of darkness and they're reduced to abnormal :Moves. : That's right. Simplicity is powerful here. The previous implementation was, however, heading for infinite complexity. :>Proposal 732 - Lost and Found [Multiple] :> :> A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action :> of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. :> :> The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single :> 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. :> :> If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between :> 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e adds 5 to eir roll. : :Ah. Good one; you can Find stuff anywhere, but stand more chance of :doing so at Paddington. Only +5 to the roll, though? And why can't :you perform the Action outside of "working hours", elsewhere? : Ah. Typo. One of the things with cut&paste. The time limit shouldn't be there in the first sentence. Expect an update. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 14:08:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28965 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 21:08:41 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 21:08:40 -0000 Received: from opus (p424-080.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.195.80]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA13238 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:08:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201be9cbb$7c94da60$50c38e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:19:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Interchange Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have looked at the map, and now I wonder: How many lines are there at: Chalfont & Latimer? Woodford? Euston? Poplar? Acton Town? The thread is, of course, that those Interchanges have multiple instances of one line. Another question (related, though) is: How can Queen's Park (and, to some extent, london Bridge) be an Interchange Station at all? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 14:26:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7071 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 21:26:32 -0000 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.211) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 21:26:32 -0000 Received: from modem-108.zinc.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.14.236] helo=franz-liszt) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hgWL-0000nP-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:26:29 +0100 Message-ID: <002601be9cbf$6b7d1a40$ec0e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:35:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >As I thought I'd said somewhere, a three-Golds-to-enter Crescent has >quite a huge strategic significance, even if you don't Win for Moving >there; because the Game is geared to prevent Players from getting to >the Crescent, it's a very safe place to hide. I'd strongly consider >bothering to move, with Flag, to MC in a Flag game, on the basis that >anyone after it would have to go to just as much bother. Yes, but of course you can't just drop the Flag on MC and leave it there, as it can be picked up mid-move... I did, a while ago, submit an amendment that Flags should only be able to be picked up and dropped if the Player was actually situated at that station at the time, but it failed. >Likewise the >Ostrich would do well to hide there, since its pursuers will have >trouble getting in. >It's also arguably necessary for the Ostrich variant; it'll be very >easy to Pounce the Ostrich if e starts the game at a bog-standard >Mornington Crescent and anyone can just wander in... A good point. >>Proposal 725 - Just Passing Through... >Hmm. Interesting idea, and I suppose it's a more intuitive use of the >word "Toll". I'm not sure how often it'll be used (have we *ever* had a >Toll paid?), but it's probably good to have around. I remember Game 5. If I'd thought of it at the time (rather than one move too late), paying a toll would actually have been useful - in the days when the Token Running action to gain a Gold existed, as I could (with LV of 10) have passed through your home of Bethnal Green (paying the Toll), shunted you to Epping and nicked one of your Golds - and Run a Gold from Stratford (where you were) next turn. But the best ideas don't always come at the best times... If this Proposal passes, >>Proposal 726 - *PECK!* (Spot the Ostrich Ruleset) > >Not bad, although what happens if there isn't a Wild Station in another >Quadrant? (And maybe we should provide some Kneepads...) Ah. A problem with the Wilds. Probably best to change it to "a Terminus Station of the Ostrich Stick holder's choice"... Of course, it's a very powerful action for very little cost (the Ostrich being able to, basically, simultaneously Spang and Shunt with one action, considering the effects) but of course the Ostrich has to be fairly close to a player to be able to manage it, and if it's too close it gets caught. And you only have to catch the Ostrich once... >>Proposal 727 - Token claiming and dropping... >> >>{Comments: (1) - this would otherwise allow players to collect two >>tokens from a Stack in one visit, one upon arrival and the other upon >>leaving. >Hmm. Is that really such an awful thing? It's always rather bothered me. Just a personal thing. >>(2) the current implementation is broken: what happens if the >>player is in Quadrant 0 where all other Quadrants are adjacent? >Then the spent Token gets destroyed, or at least that's how we've >been playing it. Reading the rules, it doesn't actually specify >where a Token goes if you can't place it... But this results in too many Tokens being lost from the game IMHO. Maybe a requirement that the Token should be in a different Zone as well as Quadrant (maybe more than one Zone Boundary away?) would be more satisfactory, but I don't believe that performing the same Action should result in a Token being destroyed or not destroyed depending on where the Player is. Besides, carefully placing the Tokens was part of the game and encouraged Players to play a bit more close to the centre anyway - with that extra degree of interaction between players. > Proposal 736 - Stack 'em High, Watch 'em Rot I do not like this proposal at all. Personally, I believe that watching how the Token Stacks build up and trying to complete one ought to be a very important strategic part of the game. Certainly it worked for me in Game 7 - I was in urgent need of Blue Tokens at the time for my Drone strategy, and could not afford to Pass (and get two at the expense of losing my entire LV), so I hit upon the idea of completing a Stack. The presence of a lone Black Token in a far quadrant allowed me to Mind the Gap (1 silver) and play another black-token action (1 black) to complete the Stack and get the reward. I am frankly surprised that there is not more attempt at strategy of this kind in the games. (And yes, minding the Gap was definitely an annoyance to me at the time, but one I was prepared to put up with for the sake of the five blue tokens. You win some, you lose some: your choice.) Personally I view this as a more satisfactory way of gaining valuable tokens than performing Manoeuvres or locating Gold Rushes (suddenly unearthing a random gold lode in London, for heaven's sake?!?) - I shall be voting against this proposal. However, I think that there should be, if anything, more ways of getting a fair number of Plastic Tokens (such as the 3 red plus 5 blue of the Black-Silver-Black stack) , and only a few ways of getting Gold and Silver Tokens (as there are now.) Similarly with Manoeuvres and Gambits, which (like Token Stacking) seem to me to be truer to the spirit of MC than Gold Rushes and Pigeons. >Proposal 738 A bit of weirdness, but I can't really see the point. At the moment, the only way of creating Green Tokens seems to be Recycling (apart from the occasional Busk, not if Proposal 737 passes, or certain Manoeuvres which are hardly ever played) - i.e. turning one non-Green token into a Green. This one simply reverses the procedure, and I ask: if this is needed, why recycle in the first place? I can't really see any cases where any Player would want to turn a Green Token into a non-Green, apart from a Gold Token (and I really don't like that possibility - I agree with PaulWay that some things are getting a bit too far from the spirit of real MC.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 14:39:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14433 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 21:39:00 -0000 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.211) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 21:39:00 -0000 Received: from modem-108.zinc.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.14.236] helo=franz-liszt) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hgiR-0005N6-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:38:59 +0100 Message-ID: <002701be9cc1$2acaaf60$ec0e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:48:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Interchange Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >How many lines are there at: > >Chalfont & Latimer? >Woodford? >Euston? >Poplar? >Acton Town? > >The thread is, of course, that those Interchanges have multiple instances of >one line. I've always been playing it that only the number of different lines count, so Euston counts two (NT, VC) Acton Town counts two (PD, DS), and all the rest count as one line only. >Another question (related, though) is: >How can Queen's Park (and, to some extent, London Bridge) be an Interchange >Station at all? For London Bridge, it is an Interchange between the Northern and the extended Jubilee lines. In the Finsbury Option, a branch of Thameslink stops there as well. Likewise, there are Jubilee interchanges at Stratford, Waterloo, West Ham, Westminster and Canary Wharf: though not connected by the Interchange symbol, they will nevertheless be interchanges when the extension opens around 4000 AD :-) The map is incorrect in one further point: there is a Docklands stop between East India and Royal Victoria - Canning Town (on the original map, this is only shown on the Jubilee Extension - which will presumably also stop there.) In short, the map is out of date, and the sooner a new one is found to replace it the better. I have a decent one (which has all the lines, interchanges marked correctly, *and* the Finsbury Option extra lines, and up-to-date zone boundaries marked - which will allow us to end the current anomaly of no Zone for the Finsbury Option extras, introduced because the web map which shows these lines doesn't have zones marked.) Unfortunately I can't get my scanner to read it properly, but if I could have an address to send it by post to then no doubt somebody (maybe Dunx or Kevan) could scan it and put it up on the website. The Queens Park interchange (on the official website map) is because many northbound Bakerloo line trains terminate at Queens Park, only a few go all the way to Harrow and Wealdstone. My aforementioned more up-to-date map has no interchange sign there. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 16:08:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 435 invoked by uid 7770); 12 May 1999 23:08:50 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 23:08:50 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA13306; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:08:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma013030; Thu, 13 May 99 09:08:16 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:08:04 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:08:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, 12 May 1999 22:06, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > These voting comments aren't as good an idea as I thought they'd be; > there's a large amount of pointlessness in not being able to respond > to someone's criticism until after votes have been tallied... I proposed this because I felt the thing lacking at that stage in the proceedings was the ability to comment anonymously. This was before first drafts and reproposal became popular, and I don't like having to tell someone that I'm going to vote against their proposal and there's nothing that they can do about it. *shrugs* It may be obsolete now as a concept, but I still find it useful - and I find I congratulate more than I condemn. Anyway, have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 22:15:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22804 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 05:15:53 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 05:15:53 -0000 Received: from opus (p111-37.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.194.165]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA14884 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 07:15:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <009801be9cff$8d229540$a5c252c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:14:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: MC: A (single) player's perspective Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan answered: :> The Nomic-mechanisms tend to favour the maximalist approach, I believe. : :Not really; I've played a few (mostly face-to-face) minimalist Nomics. It :depends entirely on the players, as does everything else. : I haven't tried FTF Nomic. But I have a hunch that 'net Nomic tends to be maximalist. :> 2) Keep the standard rules as they are now, and make a minimalist :> variant. :> :> I believe both ways are practicable. But we have to make a choice if we want :> both minimalism and maximalism satisfied. : :I think a minimalist variant might be interesting, shorn of the more frivolous :Actions and Possessions, but as we've discovered in the foreign-Map games, :there's an awful lot of "Oh, hang on, we can't use Freem Clamps because we're :not using Zones" problems when you try this. : If we wanted a Basic Ruleset, what should be there? Standard Moves, Tokens, Shunts? Do we need more? :It's really a matter of deciding whether to carry on with the real-life :aspects of our Crescent rules, or to backpedal a bit and forge ahead with :semi-random abstract jargon. (Although I suspect that, being in a democracy, :we've already got what most people are in favour of.) : You are probably right. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 23:22:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22109 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 06:22:44 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 06:22:44 -0000 Received: from opus (p403-093.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.213.93]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA01826 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 08:22:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000601be9d08$e443cb60$5dd552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:20:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that we define Ghost Stations as being 'off-line', but where are they? Aldwych - on PD, sidetrack from Holborn Blake Hall British Museum Brompton Road - I guess its near W. Brompton... Down Street Hob's End North End North Weald - near Harrow & Wealdstone? Ongar The Millennium Dome Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 12 23:42:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29537 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 06:42:19 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 06:42:19 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA29313; Thu, 13 May 1999 16:42:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029275; Thu, 13 May 99 16:42:11 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 13 May 1999 16:42:00 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:41:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:21 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > I know that we define Ghost Stations as being 'off-line', but where are > they? > > Aldwych - on PD, sidetrack from Holborn True. > North Weald > Blake Hall > Ongar This is the station order from Epping on the Central line. This was closed off in 96 or 97 I think. > British Museum Between Holborn and Chancery Lane on the Central. > Brompton Road - I guess its near W. Brompton... Between Knightsbridge and South Kensington on the Piccadilly. Don't be fooled by the Road thing - remember Edgware and Edgware Road. > Down Street > Hob's End > North End > The Millennium Dome Now here you've caught me without my Stations of the London Underground book. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Jonathan David Amery Thu May 13 07:35:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14470 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 14:35:05 -0000 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (131.111.8.70) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 14:35:05 -0000 Received: from jda23 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10hwZh-0002yG-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:35:01 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:35:01 +0100 (BST) From: Jonathan David Amery To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Errors-To: amery@b... X-Received: from nowhere for no-one by nobody with nothing; never X-Location: Hermes Organisation: Mathmos Anon. MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 13 May 1999, Wayper, Paul wrote: > > North Weald > > Blake Hall > > Ongar > > This is the station order from Epping on the Central line. This was closed > off in 96 or 97 I think. > Theres only one station between Epping and Ongar. -- Jonathan Amery. Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord? ##### I have heard you calling in the night. #######__o I will go Lord, if you lead me. #######'/ I will hold your people in my heart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 07:59:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30274 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 14:59:12 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 14:59:12 -0000 Received: from modem-103.dextromethorphn.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.63.103] helo=franz-liszt) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hwx5-0008K8-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:59:11 +0100 Message-ID: <002901be9d52$82269bc0$673f883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:08:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan David Amery To: 'l-nomic-d@egroups.com' Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 03:35 Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? >On Thu, 13 May 1999, Wayper, Paul wrote: > >> > North Weald >> > Blake Hall >> > Ongar >> >> This is the station order from Epping on the Central line. This was closed >> off in 96 or 97 I think. >> > > Theres only one station between Epping and Ongar. In recent years, only North Weald existed. But about 20 years ago, there was also Blake Hall in between North Weald and Ongar: it was closed some time before the rest of the branch line. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 13 08:03:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1073 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 15:03:52 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 15:03:52 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 May 1999 16:03:52 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:03:38 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <002901be9d52$82269bc0$673f883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Down Street > > Hob's End > > North End > > The Millennium Dome > > Now here you've caught me without my Stations of the London Underground > book. As the Proposer of the new Ghost Stations, "North End" was culled from Jonathan's (was it Jonathan's?) old Ghost Stations Proposals, "Down Street" featured in Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and is presumably a ghost station somewhere, "The Millennium Dome" was just a bit of frivolity (I've really no idea which Tube station will be nearest to the Dome when it's open, or even if they'll get things finished in time), and "Hob's End" was the Tube station being built in what was probably "Quatermass and the Pit". They found a Martian spaceship whilst excavating, if memory serves. Did nobody get the "If Your Mansion House Needs Haunting" reference, by the way? I was rather pleased with it, at the time... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Jonathan David Amery Thu May 13 08:06:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2633 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 15:06:17 -0000 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (131.111.8.70) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 15:06:17 -0000 Received: from jda23 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10hx3t-00006p-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 May 1999 16:06:13 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:06:12 +0100 (BST) From: Jonathan David Amery To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Errors-To: amery@b... X-Received: from nowhere for no-one by nobody with nothing; never X-Location: Hermes Organisation: Mathmos Anon. MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 13 May 1999 kevan@d... wrote: > Jonathan's (was it Jonathan's?) old Ghost Stations Proposals, "Down > Street" featured in Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and is presumably a ghost > station somewhere, "The Millennium Dome" was just a bit of frivolity Neverwhere claims that there are 50 Ghost statiosn (or so). -- Jonathan Amery. Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord? ##### I have heard you calling in the night. #######__o I will go Lord, if you lead me. #######'/ I will hold your people in my heart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 08:32:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19719 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 15:32:49 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 15:32:49 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26561 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 16:32:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21314 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 16:32:46 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id QAA10924; Thu, 13 May 1999 16:32:44 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905131532.QAA10924@u...> Date: 13 May 99 16:31:37 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan wrote: > Did nobody get the "If Your Mansion House Needs Haunting" reference, by the > way? I was rather pleased with it, at the time... It made me smile - I'm doing a bit of work on ghosts at the moment in my day= job, and I named the source code branch ifYourMansionHouseNeedsHaunting as a= result. Consider it a lasting memorial in the source code archives of Oracle. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 09:14:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12866 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 16:14:05 -0000 Received: from judy.ic.ac.uk (155.198.5.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 16:14:05 -0000 Received: from juliet.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.5.4]) by judy.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hz2n-00032Q-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 May 1999 17:13:13 +0000 Received: from madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.2]) by juliet.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hz2j-0006qd-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 May 1999 17:13:09 +0000 Received: from linear.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.43] helo=linear) by madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 10hy7V-0005RO-00; Thu, 13 May 1999 17:14:01 +0100 From: "Snow" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:14:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: Subject: MN: Re: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 0100,0100,0100On 13 May 99, at 16:41, Wayper, Paul wrote: 7F00,0000,0000> On Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:21 PM, Ole Andersen > [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > I know that we define Ghost Stations > as being 'off-line', but where are > they? 7F00,0000,0000> > Brompton Road - I guess its near W. Brompton... > 7F00,0000,0000 > Between Knightsbridge and South Kensington on the Piccadilly. Don't be > fooled by the Road thing - remember Edgware and Edgware Road. I have wondered for a long time why it takes so long to get from S. Ken to Knightsbridge. I thought there was a huge MI5 underground bunker that the tunnel needed to avoid. Here are some sites dealing with closed LU stations. http://marina.fortunecity.com/fantasy/382/lul_clsd.htm http://www.infolondon.co.uk/transport/lt/under/index.htm http://www.calong.dircon.co.uk/print.ghosts.html http://www.netforce.co.uk/whitecon/pilot.html http://www.timeout.com/london/sight/By_area/downstreet.html (_read the last paragraph of this_) I also found a site (and lost it again), which said there used to be a Post Office station and that the post office has its own seperate underground system in London. Snow -Errors and Fissions Excepted From Thu May 13 10:44:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6647 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 17:43:58 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 17:43:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p442-061.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.204.61]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01321 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 19:43:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002201be9d68$0f2cb3a0$3dcc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:19:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : :As the Proposer of the new Ghost Stations, "North End" was culled from Jonathan's (was it Jonathan's?) old Ghost Stations Proposals, OK, but _where_? "Down Street" featured in Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and is presumably a ghost station somewhere, I think I saw it on one of the LT-related webpages, so it seems to be 'official' "The Millennium Dome" was just a bit of frivolity (I've really no idea which Tube station will be nearest to the Dome when it's open, or even if they'll get things finished in time), I think North Greenwich is the closest. and "Hob's End" was the Tube station being built in what was probably "Quatermass and the Pit". They found a Martian spaceship whilst excavating, if memory serves. Where? : :Did nobody get the "If Your Mansion House Needs Haunting" reference, by the way? I was rather pleased with it, at the time... : I don't think I got it... :-( Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 12:54:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21706 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 19:54:55 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 19:54:55 -0000 Received: from opus (p427-157.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.196.157]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17600 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 21:54:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00af01be9d7a$59ded7e0$3dcc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:17:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: : :> British Museum : :Between Holborn and Chancery Lane on the Central. : Thanks. :> Brompton Road - I guess its near W. Brompton... : :Between Knightsbridge and South Kensington on the Piccadilly. Don't be :fooled by the Road thing - remember Edgware and Edgware Road. I found a map of LT in 1900. Brompton (without Road) seems to be the old name of Gloucester Road. That makes three Bromptons, so far. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 12:55:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21729 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 19:54:56 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 19:54:56 -0000 Received: from opus (p427-157.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.196.157]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17630 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 21:54:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00b001be9d7a$5ac23300$3dcc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:21:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : :I also found a site (and lost it again), which said there used to be a Post Office station and that the post office has its own seperate underground system in London. : The P.O. was between Bank and Chancery Lane (according to a map I found somewhere on the 'net - ca. 40 kB). Was it renamed to St. Paul's? I found the site, too. I'll see if I can find it again... Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 13:18:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4138 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 20:18:39 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 20:18:39 -0000 Received: from opus (p427-157.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.196.157]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA07156 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:18:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00ed01be9d7d$aaceb960$3dcc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:14:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: :Snow wrote: :: ::I also found a site (and lost it again), which said there used to be a Post :Office station and that the post office has its own seperate underground :system in London. :: : : :The P.O. was between Bank and Chancery Lane (according to a map I found :somewhere on the 'net - ca. 40 kB). Was it renamed to St. Paul's? : :I found the site, too. I'll see if I can find it again... : It's at http://www.pins.co.uk/upages/karslakec/po_railway/index.html Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 13 13:35:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14767 invoked by uid 7770); 13 May 1999 20:35:42 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 20:35:42 -0000 Received: from modem-51.iodine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.51] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10i21r-0000RZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 May 1999 21:24:27 +0100 Message-ID: <002901be9d81$40b1f8e0$331a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:43:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >:As the Proposer of the new Ghost Stations, "North End" was culled from >Jonathan's (was it Jonathan's?) old Ghost Stations Proposals, It's on the Northern Line: a station that was half-built and then abandoned, which qualifies it in standard MC for both "foetal" (stations in the process of being built) and "ghost" (stations that have closed) status. Was also known at one stage as Bull & Bush after a nearby pub. I can't remember the exact position, but a fine article on ghost stations is present in the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia at the great and world(?)-famous site which used to be "Mornington Crescent at York" but has now moved to UCL at the following side: http://madeira.physiol.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/crescent/mornington.pl [Ole] You should try *real* MC some time, it seems much less formal than the fairly strict (albeit constantly changing) rules of MN. [Kevan] is there any particular reason you've stopped posting to real MC games and only play Mornington Nomic now? >"Down Street" featured in Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and is presumably a ghost >station somewhere, Piccadilly, between Knightsbridge and Gloucester Rd IIRC, though I may be wrong about this. >"The Millennium Dome" was just a bit of frivolity (I've really no idea which >Tube station will be nearest to the Dome when it's open, or even if they'll >get things finished in time), North Greenwich (JL extension.) It's being specially constructed for the purpose. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 14 00:53:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29644 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 07:52:57 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 07:52:57 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07957 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:52:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05096 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:52:55 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id IAA18776; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:52:55 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905140752.IAA18776@u...> Date: 14 May 99 08:50:51 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-421-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 13-May-99 21:14 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It's at http://www.pins.co.uk/upages/karslakec/po_railway/index.html Unfortunately, not a terribly interesting map for a Turin '57 game... How would that c. 1900 map be to play on? -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 14 01:13:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 5007 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 08:13:15 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 08:13:15 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 1999 09:13:16 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:13:02 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <002901be9d81$40b1f8e0$331a883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [Kevan] > is there any particular reason you've stopped posting to real MC games > and only play Mornington Nomic now? Lack of online time, really; after the heady days of free university access, I was reduced to paying for an Internet connection, and only strayed online to briefly collect email and reply to it afterwards. Such was fine for Nomickery, but not too good for Crescent at York. And although I've got Internet access at work these days, I'm loathe to dip too much of a toe back into online Crescentry, knowing how much of my day it used to claim. I tend to partake in a little casual play whenever I bump into any friends who know the game, and listen to ISIHAC if I remember, but such is my limit of "proper" Crescent at the moment... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 14 02:42:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4518 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 09:42:02 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 09:42:02 -0000 Received: from opus (p426-080.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.196.80]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA09575 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:42:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <006301be9ded$e1c756a0$50c48e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:20:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: How would that c. 1900 map be to play on? ### I can send it to you off-list, if you like. It has: Black (Northern): Clapham Common to Moorgate Red (Central): Bank to Shepherd's Bush Green (District):Wimbledon, Richmond, Hounslow West and Ealing Broadway to Edgware Road, Whitechapel and New Cross Purple (Met): Hammersmith, Brompton [Gloucester Road], Chesham, Brill and Verney Junction to Mansion House and St. Mary's I found the map on the euroMetro site. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 14 04:58:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 25498 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 11:58:40 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 11:58:40 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.14] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 1999 12:58:40 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:58:25 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <002601be9cbf$6b7d1a40$ec0e883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >As I thought I'd said somewhere, a three-Golds-to-enter Crescent has > >quite a huge strategic significance, [...] > > Yes, but of course you can't just drop the Flag on MC and leave it > there, as it can be picked up mid-move... Indeed not, but if you just sit at MC rather than dropping the Flag there, your opponents are going to have rather a hard time getting at you. > [Quadrant Zero] > But this results in too many Tokens being lost from the game IMHO. Is this a problem? I suspect that the game wouldn't be particularly impacted if *all* Tokens were lost when spent... > Maybe > a requirement that the Token should be in a different Zone as well as > Quadrant (maybe more than one Zone Boundary away?) would be more > satisfactory, [...] There's the danger that it'll get too fiddly to check, though - it's quite nice at the moment that you can quite easily glance at the Map and find a Station in the necessary Quadrant, or skim over the existing Stacks and find one that's valid for Token dropping. > Besides, carefully placing the Tokens was part of the > game and encouraged Players to play a bit more close to the centre > anyway - with that extra degree of interaction between players. Mmm, there was that, I suppose, but interaction combined with an easy way to get back spent Tokens is likely to get overly messy, and there's probably a little too much space for exploitation on a Player's way to the Crescent (casually Spooning people and picking up the Gold straight away). My memory's a bit hazy on how things used to be in this area, really. > > Proposal 736 - Stack 'em High, Watch 'em Rot > I do not like this proposal at all. Personally, I believe that > watching how the Token Stacks build up and trying to complete one ought > to be a very important strategic part of the game. Maybe so, but the current implementation of it seems too slapdash; I'm slightly uncomfortable with the idea of performing unnecessary Actions just to get some Tokens across the Map to complete a Stack - although cunning (well, unless you've got loads of Tokens, in which case it's quite easy), it makes the GSD rather ugly. I think my main problem with Stack patterns, though, is the fact that they're quite difficult to remember, and players are unlikely to think "Oh, look, I can finish a Stack" or "Oh, mercy, Paul's about to finish one" (particularly when it's possible to spew out dozens, even theoretical hundreds of Tokens per turn). > Personally I view this as a more satisfactory way of gaining > valuable tokens than performing Manoeuvres or locating Gold Rushes Manoeuvres are just as unsatisfactory, I think, in that there's no easy way to keep an eye on such things, particularly with the Station-attribute ones, although it is always quite impressive when someone manages to pull a Manoeuvre off. I'm not quite sure what you've got against Gold Rushes, though... > (suddenly unearthing a random gold lode in London, for heaven's > sake?!?) Er, as opposed to throwing plastic from one side of the city to the other and having it create precious metals in your pocket? Gold Rushes are just as abstract as any other aspect of the game - the term just seemed an appropriate one for the random generation of a Gold Token Stack. > >Proposal 738 > A bit of weirdness, but I can't really see the point. At the moment, the > only way of creating Green Tokens seems to be Recycling (apart from the > occasional Busk, not if Proposal 737 passes, or certain Manoeuvres which > are hardly ever played) Such was the point of Green Tokens, I thought, that you only got them by Recycling. I found it a bit odd when they started cropping up elsewhere, to be honest. > - i.e. turning one non-Green token into a Green. > This one simply reverses the procedure, and I ask: if this is needed, > why recycle in the first place? Players would obviously be happy to Recycle a Black into a Green, and then generate a Silver. Green Tokens just seemed a fitting source of raw material, was all. > I can't really see any cases where any > Player would want to turn a Green Token into a non-Green, apart from a > Gold Token Such is, of course, the real point of having a Generator, and that's why they're so cumbersome and fiddly to use. All kudos, I think, to anyone who manages to get one up and running, and holds onto it for long enough to dispense three Golds. > (and I really don't like that possibility - I agree with > PaulWay that some things are getting a bit too far from the spirit of > real MC.) I thought this was particularly close to "Real Crescent", myself - the announcement that a Player is "using the Token Generator to turn a Green into a Silver, Straddling to Neasden and Minding the Gap" doesn't strike these ears as anything other than proper Crescent. Tish. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 14 05:21:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1904 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 12:18:48 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 12:18:48 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25613 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:18:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn43 (uksn43.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.18]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30136 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:18:44 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn43 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA19164; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:18:41 +0100 Message-Id: <199905141218.NAA19164@uksn43> Date: 14 May 99 13:11:58 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UNX8.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-426-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 14-May-99 12:58 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I think my main problem with Stack patterns, though, is the fact that >they're quite difficult to remember I agree entirely - I've been toying on and off for months with trying to apply some more general patterns which *are* more memorable (much in the same way that the interchange token bonuses work), but have been unable to define any= suitable forms. As Kevan points out, manoeuvres have a similar difficulty, but they are saved by some rather good names which act (to a certain extent) as mnemonics. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 14 07:26:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8559 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 14:26:49 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 14:26:49 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01282 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 15:26:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25258 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 15:26:36 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id PAA12440; Fri, 14 May 1999 15:26:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905141426.PAA12440@u...> Date: 14 May 99 15:23:11 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Game States 14/5/99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Game states as of 15:00 BST 14/5/99 are as follows: Game List Rules To Play Last Move (all times BST) ------------------------------------------------------ 11 MN-L Long Dunx 13-May-1999 21:49 13 MN-G Finsbury Grimace 3-May-1999 21:58 [1] 15 MN-R Rutts Dunx 6-May-1999 14:01 16 MN-B Chateau PaulWay 6-May-1999 16:58 17 MN-C Flag Dunx 11-May-1999 12:06 [1] last play was discussion of a Buzz on Grimace - since it's rather more than 36 hours since the Buzz and e's not defended emself particularly vigorously I think we take it that e's conceded. A Timeout will follow. Oh dear - I do seem to be lagging rather. Sorry all. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 14 09:29:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19312 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 16:29:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 16:29:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p437-215.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.201.215]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA22102 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:29:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008a01be9e26$c49e3100$50c48e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:08:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Ghosts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote (on the P.O. line): > It's at http://www.pins.co.uk/upages/karslakec/po_railway/index.html Unfortunately, not a terribly interesting map for a Turin '57 game... ### That's right, but it could be a P.O. (or Mount Pleasant) Option -similar to Finsbury. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 14 12:29:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26365 invoked by uid 7770); 14 May 1999 19:29:36 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 1999 19:29:36 -0000 Received: from opus (p136-18.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.204.210]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA24759 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 21:29:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <014001be9e3f$fba9f3a0$50c48e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:11:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Sv: Proposal musings Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: ::>Proposal 732 - Lost and Found [Multiple] ::> ::> A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action ::> of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. ::> ::> The Player performing the [Finding] Action should roll a single ::> 100-sided die after submitting eir Turn. ::> ::> If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between ::> 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e adds 5 to eir roll. :: ::Ah. Good one; you can Find stuff anywhere, but stand more chance of ::doing so at Paddington. Only +5 to the roll, though? And why can't ::you perform the Action outside of "working hours", elsewhere? :: : :Ah. Typo. One of the things with cut&paste. The time limit shouldn't be :there in the first sentence. Expect an update. : The announced update is not coming. I just remembered it, and I think we are past update time. I think the 'working hours' restriction is a _small_ annoyance. If this prop goes through, feel free to propose an amendment on that point later. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Sat May 15 04:30:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16517 invoked by uid 7770); 15 May 1999 11:30:30 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 May 1999 11:30:30 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10iceD-0002Pa-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:30:29 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:28:25 GMT Message-ID: <373f54e7.3997455@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 5 Ruleset Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: The Week 5 Ruleset updates have been completed. Get 'em while they're = slightly luke warm. Don't forget to Resign Players from Game where they've been Inactive for = more than two months (Proposal 706)... Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.eGroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 16 22:28:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27554 invoked by uid 7770); 17 May 1999 05:28:39 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 May 1999 05:28:39 -0000 Received: from opus (p432-095.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.199.95]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA14943 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 07:28:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <012b01bea025$ee4b50e0$62d552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:26:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Croydon Tramlink? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It looks like Croydon Tramlink has a status similar to DLR. It, too, could be added to the map. It has an interesting loop. Only trouble with it: It has an interchange with the underground at Wimbledon, and is witinwalking distance at Morden, but apart from that, it is unconnected to LU. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 18 13:48:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10339 invoked by uid 7770); 18 May 1999 20:47:26 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 May 1999 20:47:26 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10jqlq-0007cv-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:47:26 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:45:14 GMT Message-ID: <3741d08b.5850014@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Oh Good Grief Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Players: Apologies for this, but I've only just got round to starting to Speak and= it's nearly ten, so I'm going to have to postpone for a day. Humble apologies = for the inconvenience. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 18 16:02:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23637 invoked by uid 7770); 18 May 1999 23:02:30 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 May 1999 23:02:30 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA08014; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:02:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma008000; Wed, 19 May 99 09:02:23 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:02:06 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:02:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: MN-L: Game 11... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taking this post from the Lyttleton list and reposting on the Discussion list for more general comment. For those not in the know, the question has come up about the "Stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap" rules for Token exchanging. Jonathan's managed to pull off a 2 silver token swap, and this brings makes others think of using this more. On Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:32 PM, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > PaulWay wrote: > > *shrugs* Personally, Token Stacking is my preferred 'IMCS-approved' method > > of gaining Golds. > > It has a very traditional feel to it, certainly, but I don't think it's > too compatible with the way that the game's working at the moment; Token > Stacking is a fairly random affair, and quite hard (or at least > uninteresting) to plan in advance ("Aha, if I do these pointless Actions > this Turn, and these superfluous ones next Turn, I can complete a > Stack"). And dropping Tokens along your route needs you to travel back > and forth through the same Stations a few times for it to be of any use, > which is less than exciting. True. The [Hoarding] Action might be the most useful tool we have here. One possibility is to open up the [Placing Token] Action to be able to put a token anywhere. If you don't like that, then what about being able to place tokens on any place you 'own' - Home stations, pegs, stubs, places you've visited this turn and the like. Maybe once you've put a token on a stack you can always place tokens on that stack. So do people think that we should expand on this sort of Token gain method? > Cashing in Hats is perhaps the most "proper" of Gold-gettings, at least in > its general style - you have to travel to a fairly wide range of > different Stations to get everything you need, and this lends itself to a > pleasing list of Moves. Indeed, although one wonders if we should perhaps expand the list and make it five of any type out of a list of say seven. > I think the other methods are all fair enough, though, and we really need > such things to keep the game diverse and interesting; better to have > numerous attacks and defences than a simple set of strategies, I think. > It wouldn't be Mornington Crescent, otherwise. Oh, absolutely. > > Manoeuvres will always remain possible, [...] > > But for my part I haven't done anything I wanted (yet) to put a > > name to... > > Me neither, and I do wonder if it's worth reinventing the concept of > Manoeuvres, solving the flaw of their murkiness - perhaps a compulsory > "I'm about to complete a Manoeuvre next Turn" Action, along the lines of > Dunx's old "Atari" suggestion, would solve some of its troubles. I don't really see the point of that; like everything else, the assumption is there that you have to keep watching what other players are going to do. I try to check what everyone's up to each turn - if for nothing else than to make sure I'm not inadvertently shunted. Comments, anyone? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue May 18 22:35:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23429 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 05:35:07 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 05:35:07 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.206] (dhcp9542206.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.206]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA25128 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 01:40:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:37:46 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game 11... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reposting this to the Discussion list, after PaulWay's example: >> One idea that I would like to see (it isn't in next week's >>Proposals, but will be in the week after next) is that of forcing all >>Tokens expended on a particular Action to be placed on the same Stack. > >That would fix people being able to get back all the tokens spent on >Tithing. I'd vote for that, assuming I remembered to vote. > >>>Me neither, and I do wonder if it's worth reinventing the concept of >>Manoeuvres, solving the flaw of their murkiness - perhaps a compulsory >>"I'm about to complete a Manoeuvre next Turn" Action, along the lines of >>Dunx's old "Atari" suggestion, would solve some of its troubles. >> >> That might be possible, but personally I prefer the idea that one >>has to spot the opponents *without* them telling you what they are >>doing. After all, in chess, you don't announce your intentions to your >>opponents (and, while I'm a great Rutts fan on some occasions, my >>original favourite MC grandmaster was the Russian chess fiend >>Baryshnikov.) For instance, any one of you guys at Charing Cross could >>have come up the Jubilee, blocked Neasden and denied my Rushton Memorial >>Gambit. But because most of you were so preoccupied in picking up >>Pigeons, nobody noticed - indeed Dunx was kind enough to kill the >>potential DH Loop (if everybody had followed, I couldn't have escaped as >>I had neither Silver Tokens nor an LV of 10). One just has to be on >>one's guard. Likewise, a Power Failure on the Northern might have killed >>RiffRaff's Morden Paradox, but nobody was too worried. MC is surely a >>game of strategy, after all... > >Agreed. > >Perhaps [Atari] could be optional... Say, you're about to complete a >Gambit, and you play [Atari]. If noone is able to block the Manoevre, you >get an extra Silver (or something) as a bonus for having given the warning. > >cheers, >--Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 19 00:33:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11097 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 07:33:19 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 07:33:19 -0000 Received: from opus (p406-051.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.214.179]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12688 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:33:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002801bea1c9$dc410660$b3d652c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:51:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Game 11... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would someone please enlighten me? What is the Atari proposal, and what does it have to do with Atari? Ole PS A thing about eGroups: Sending the same message to two or more lists is seen as potential spamming. The message is sent to the moderator for moderation (sic). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 19 01:35:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6547 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 08:35:54 -0000 Received: from search.egroups.com (HELO search.findmail.com) (207.138.41.144) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 08:35:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 13107 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 08:35:54 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by search.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 08:35:54 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00952 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:35:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06955 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:35:36 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA28887; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:35:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905190835.JAA28887@u...> Date: 19 May 99 09:33:27 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-436-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 19-May-99 06:51 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Atari Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ole wrote: > Would someone please enlighten me? > What is the Atari proposal, and what does it have to do with Atari? It was a Proposal I put forward ages ago to force Players to give fair warning when they were about to win a Game - Proposal 548, Year 2 Week 29. It was derived not so much from Atari the computer maker, but the source for= the name of Nolan Bushnell's company - in Go, when you are within a move of capturing an army you must say 'atari'. This is in contrast to chess, where you are told you are in check when it happens. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed May 19 01:36:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 6699 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 08:36:15 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 08:36:15 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 May 1999 09:36:16 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7htt5v$po5t@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:36:15 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <002801bea1c9$dc410660$b3d652c3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Game 11... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What is the Atari proposal, and what does it have to do with Atari? To remind everyone... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 548 - Didn't They Used to Make Computers? [Action] A Player must play the Post-Move Action [Atari], if e believes that e can win on eir next Turn. Playing Atari when it is impossible to win on the next Turn is Illegal. There is no requirement to explain how a win might be achieved when playing [Atari], although an explanation may be needed if the Action is challenged. A winning Play shall be deemed Illegal unless the Player has played an Action of [Atari] on the Turn prior to that of eir otherwise winning Play. Name: Atari Type: Post-Move Cost: none Duration: none { Comment: Borrowing an idea from Go (and, to a certain extent, chess) of giving fair warning when something bad is about to happen. Atari would prevent serendipitous victories, but it would also stop stealth victories which (I seem to recall) was an objection to the Charge idea. It might also help to undermine gross misinterpretation of the Rules. Note that there is no cost associated with playing Atari, nor is there any penalty for playing Atari and then not winning. The only penalty is for playing Atari when you cannot, in fact, win. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This could very easily be applied to Manoeuvres instead; whether this is a good idea or not is left as an exercise to the reader. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed May 19 15:28:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24032 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 22:28:19 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 22:28:19 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10kEoz-000IZA-4S for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:28:18 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:26:03 GMT Message-ID: <374a39ff.7582007@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 6 - Voting Results for Week 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 723 Lost Property 4 2 1 4 Passes [a] 724 All The Pegs In One Basket 6 1 - 4 Passes 725 Just Passing Through 5 1 1 4 Passes 726 *PECK!* 4 2 1 4 Passes 727 Token Claiming and Dropping 2 2 3 4 Fails 728 Pachisi Crescent 5 2 - 4 Passes 729 Yodeling 5 1 1 4 Passes 730 Size Matters 5 1 1 4 Passes 731 Walking In The Night 2 2 3 4 Fails 732 Lost & Found 6 1 - 4 Passes 733 And you run and you run... 2 1 4 4 Fails 734 Time And Motion Sickness 1 1 5 4 Fails 735 Heading Them Off At The Pass 6 1 - 4 Passes 736 Stack 'em High, Watch 'em Rot 1 1 5 4 Fails 737 Plastic? Are You Kidding? 1 1 5 4 Fails 738 Cunningly Fashioned... 4 1 2 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 723 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - AGA FOR - = PAS 724 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR FOR - = FOR 725 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS AGA - FOR FOR - = FOR 726 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS AGA - FOR FOR - = PAS 727 (J'than) - AGA AGA - PAS AGA - FOR FOR - = PAS 728 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - PAS FOR - = FOR 729 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR AGA - PAS FOR - = FOR 730 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR AGA - PAS FOR - = FOR 731 (Ole) - AGA AGA - FOR AGA - PAS FOR - = PAS 732 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - = FOR 733 (Paul) - AGA FOR - AGA AGA - AGA PAS - = FOR 734 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - AGA PAS - AGA AGA - = AGA 735 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR FOR - = FOR 736 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - AGA PAS - AGA AGA - = AGA 737 (Kevan) - FOR AGA - AGA PAS - AGA AGA - = AGA 738 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA PAS - AGA FOR - = FOR -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 37 4 0 43 51 16 10 12 2 = 0 Halved: 19 2 21 25 5 6 1 = 0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +21 +13 +23 +2 +0 = +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -6 -17 I -5 -4 -0 = +0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 +0 n +3 +3 +0 = +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 a 0 -0 -0 = +0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 t 0 +0 +0 = +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 i 0 -0 -0 = +0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 v 0 +0 +0 = +0 [b] e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +0 +3 +4 +0 +0 = +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 0 +0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +6 +3 +0 +18 -1 +25 +1 +0 = +3 Final: 11 25 5 0 39 24 16 30 7 1 = 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] amendment to 712 discarded because no longer applicable (I was going = to apply them to 732, but neither Blonking nor Picking Rags are = mentioned any more) [b] now there's a novelty... [*] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Kevan (Plastic? Are You Kidding?): +3 CAMREC Cleanup Award - none Mrs Trellis Award - Ole (Pachisi Crescent): +4 Lyttleton Award - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic): +3 Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Wed May 19 15:28:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24130 invoked by uid 7770); 19 May 1999 22:28:27 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 22:28:27 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10kEp2-000IZA-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:28:22 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:26:05 GMT Message-ID: <374832b1.5711801@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 6 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Six -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 739 - Radio Control [Multiple] Rule 1.10.x - Radiation A Player possessing a Remote Control may perform the Action of "Radiating ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, also known as the Controller. The Radiated Player, also known as the Controllee, gains a "Radio = Clamp" Indestructable Possession. A Controllee will move parallel to eir Controller each time the Controller Moves or is Shunted, if possible, provided the Remote Control is On. Thus, if Rushton (now at Regent's Park) had Radiated Garden (now at Paddington), and Moved (with the Remote Controll On) Oxford Circus- Bond Street-Green Park-Piccadilly Circus, Garden would be moved Bayswater-Bayswater-Notting Hill Gate-Queensway, not being able to move west from Bayswater. A Controllee may remove a Radio Clamp by playing the "De-Radiating" while sharing a Station and Line with eir Controller. This causes the Remote Control to explode, causing Light Damage to the Station = occupied by the Controller, as well as destroying one Token of each colour, belonging to the Controller, if e has any. If a Remote Control is destroyed, except by "De-Radiating", the corresponding Radio Clamp is destroyed, too. Rule 1.4.x - Zzzzzzzzzzap! Electric Possessions are either On or Off, Off being the default. A Player can switch one of eir Electric Possessions On or Off by using the Neutral Action [ On] or [ Off], respectively. If the Circle Line is in an Electrified State, all Electric = Possessions are Off. +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Remote Control (Off)| 3 Br | Small, Electric | = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [De-Radiating] Neut 1.10.x -1 Re -1 Bu [Radiating ] Neut 1.10.x -3 Re [ Off] Neut 1.4.x none [ On] Neut 1.4.x none -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 740 - A Wether Was Once A Ram [Enactment] Londonian Weather is a strange and unpredictable affair, veering = between bright sunshine and heavy snow throughout the Year, sometimes even changing during the course of any given Week. When a Player advances Game Time to or beyond midnight between Sunday = and Monday, e should should roll a single six-sided die after submitting = eir Turn. The next Player to take eir Turn should look this number up on = the table below to establish the weather for the coming week. Cloudless All is well. 1 =3D Change, 2 =3D Overcast, 3-4 =3D Cloudless, 5-6 =3D= Windy Overcast Ominous grey clouds gather slowly overhead, bringing = with them the promise of rain. 1-2 =3D Fog, 3 =3D Raining, 4 =3D Overcast, 5-6 =3D = Cloudless Windy Trees sway and leaves flutter as a gentle wind sweeps through the City, rippling waves along the lawn. The LV Adjustment range is LV-2 to LV+4, instead of the usual LV+/-3. 1 =3D Change, 2-3 =3D Cloudless, 4-5 =3D Windy, 6 =3D = Storm Storm Trees topple and bankers fly with their little = Umbrellas. The LV Adjustment range is LV-1 to LV+5, instead of the usual LV+/-3. If a Player has any Tokens, e must perform the [ Token on ] Actionduring eir = Turn. 1 =3D Change, 2-3 =3D Cloudless, 4-6 =3D Windy Raining The clouds open, and heavy raindrops patter on the = lawns, streams of water snaking down the windows of the City. All Pre-Move Actions take 5 minutes more than usual. 1-2 =3D Fog, 3 =3D Overcast, 4-5 =3D Raining, 6 =3D = Snowing Snowing Chill winds blow, and a crisp layer of snow covers the whole City, tiny icicles hanging from the gutters. While it snows, switching Lines at a Co-Situated Station lasts 10 minutes. Shunting causes the Shunting Player to skid along with = the Shunted Player, both ending in the same place. 1 =3D Fog, 2-3 =3D Raining, 4 =3D Windy, 5-6 =3D Snowing Fog You can barely see a hand before you. In Fog, [Ghosting] is Free, while Shunting costs double. Wearing Spectacles causes the effects of Fog to be ignored by the Wearing Player. 1 =3D Change, 2-3 =3D Fog, 4 =3D Windy, 5-6 =3D Raining Smog Besides your not being able to see a hand before you, = Smog will destroy your health. All the effects of Fog apply to Smog as well. An Environmental Tax is levied, so all performed, = except [Recycling ], cost one Bronze Token on top of = the usual cost. 1-2 =3D Fog, 3-4 =3D Raining, 5 =3D Windy, 6 =3D Smog Change For the remainder of the week, weather checks are performed each midnight. Apart from this, no change in the pre-existing weather occurs. 1-3 =3D Cloudless, 4-6 =3D Windy Weather Conditions are noted in a box on the GSD, e.g. +Weather -----------------+ | Cloudless(Change) | +-------------------------+ [Upon the adoption of this Rule, the weather is defined to be Cloudless.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 741 - It was thi-i-is big! [Multiple] New Rule 1.7.x - Gone Fishin' A Player may perform the Action "[Fishing]", provided e is at a Water Station and wearing a Fishing Hat. The Player performing the [Fishing] Action should roll a single 10-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take eir = Turn should look the number rolled up on the table below. The found item is then added to the Luggage Rack or Token Table of the Finding Player. +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item caught | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1-4 | Nothing | | | 5 | Boot | Garment, Old Wet | | 6 | Goldfish | Edible, worth 1 Bronze Token | | 7 | Carp | Edible, worth 2 Bronze Tokens | | 8 | Halibut | Edible, worth 3 Bronze Tokens | | 9 | Tuna | Edible, worth 5 Bronze Tokens | | 10 | HMS Belfast | Edible, worth 7 Bronze Tokens | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ New Rule 1.7.x - Following the Wet Footprints A Player may perform the Action "[Backtracking]", provided e is wearing an Old, Wet Boot. If Circle Line is Electrified, no = Backtracking is possible. When a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Backtracking]", eir LV = is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, the Station to which e = made eir last Standard Move is a Valid Move, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Backtracking]" Action. Amend Rule 1.4.6 - You Can Leave Your Hat On There exist eight categories of Hat: A-Z, British Rail, Compass, = Fishing, Terminus, Verdant, Hard, Silly. Hard and Silly Hats may be bought from any Emporium station, Fishing Hats from any Water Station, all other = Hats from Stations of the same type (Terminus Hats from a Terminus Station, for example). A Player may perform the Action "[Purchasing Hat ()]" if e is situated at a Station which a Hat of the specified type may be purchased, and if e is not carrying a Hat of that type already. A Player may perform the Action "[Cashing in Hats]" if e is carrying = an A to Z, British Rail, Compass, Fishing, Terminus and Verdant Hat; upon performing this Action e loses all of those Hats and gains one Gold = and two Silver Tokens. No Player may Purchase a Hat in the same Turn as cashing Hats in. Amend Rule 3.0.1 - Line and Station changes under (4): - If it is not possible to find an equivalent for all six types of station at which Hats may be purchased (A-Z, British Rail, = Compass, Fishing, Terminus, Verdant) and no substitute category can be = used, then Hats and any Rules and Actions relating to them do not = exist in the game, apart from Silly Hats (and Hard Hats, should any Construction Lines be present.) Insert in Rule 1.17.6 - Station Categories * Water - A Water Station is one with the string "Bridge", = "Brook", Ditch", "Embankment", "Harbour", "Island", "Quay", "Shore", "Water" or "Wharf" in its name. Insert in 1.4.x "The Emperor's New Clothes..." Old, Wet Boot - The Player has access to the Action = [Backtracking]. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Backtracking] Pre 1.7.x -1 Bk [Fishing] Neut 1.7.x 30 -1 Br -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 742 - Don't Bomb the Chinese Embassy! [Amendment] {Comment: As the title suggests, it is important to keep maps up to date... as witnessed by the recent events over Belgrade.} - The official Map for Mornington Nomic should be replaced by the new one at http://www.londontransport.co.uk/image/colormap.pdf - As this Map has the North London and Thameslink connections as well, it is suitable for the Finsbury Option rule, and should be included as part of the Map there. - Remove some of the text of Rule 2.3.1, between "However, these lines are considered to be exempt from all Zone regulations..." and the new Walking Distance connections. - Append the following text to Rule 1.17.4: Any National Railways lines shown on the Map are not considered part of the playing area in the Standard Ruleset. No move which passes along a Line Segment of a National Railways line is valid: and National Railways are not counted towards the number of Lines passing through an Interchange Station, nor are stations where National Railways lines intersect with Underground lines considered Interchanges at all unless there is more than one Underground line passing through that Station. {Comment: Otherwise Willesden Junction, Kentish Town, Custom House etc. all look like Interchanges with nothing to show for it. Of course, the Finsbury Option is easier to understand now...} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 743 - Mindbocklingly... [Action] Add to: Rule 1.7.2 - Actions = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ Bock] Post 1.7.x -1 Bu, -1 [Un-Bock ] Post 1.7.x -3 Bu -1 [Un-Bock] Post 1.7.x -6 Bu New Rule: Rule 1.7.x - Mindbocklingly... A Player may perform the Post-Move Action "[ Bock]", the Post-Move Action "[Un-Bock ]" or the Post-Move Action "[Un-Bock]", where is a colour of Tokens in the Game. If a "[ Bock]" Action has been performed and no = "[Un-Bock ]" or "[Un-Bock]" Action has been performed since, the = Game is said to be "In Bock", and each Action has a Token = cost of one Token above and beyond the ordinary Token cost, except if: * The Actioning Player is at a Station, which for the purpose of this rule is defined as a Station with the string = in its name, or * The Token cost of the Action already includes one or more Tokens, or * The Action performed is [Un-Bock ]" or "[Un-Bock]". The State of Bock is indicated in the Disruptions Box = in the GSD, when appropriate. ------ Comment: See 'Bock' in Encyclopaedia Morningtonia. Colours in Stations: * Black : Blackfriars, Blackhorse Road, Blackwall. * Blue : * Green : Bethnal Green, Bounds Green, Golders Green, Green = Park, Greenford, Kensal Green, North Greenwich, Parsons Green, Stepney Green, Turnham Green, Willesden = Green, Wood Green * Red : Redbridge, Shoreditch(?) * Bronze : * Silver : * Gold : Golders Green, Goldhawk Road -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 744 - Stribble me Timbers... [Action] Rule 1.7.x - Stribble me Timbers If a Player, after eir Move, shares a Station and Line with a Token Stack, e may elect to Stribble the Stack. This is achieved by = performing the Action of "[Stribble to ]", where "" is the = chosen Target Station. This Action may only be performed if the Actioning Player has a Line Velocity greater than four. For a Stribble to be legal, the following criteria must be met:- * There are is a distance of 'p' Stations between the Target = Station and the Stribbled Stack's initial location (where 'p' is twice = the Actioning Player's Line Velocity). * The Line Code of the Target Station is the same as one of the = Lines which serves the Stribbled Stack's initial location. Blocked Stations, closed Lines or any criteria which would normally place the target Station out of reach do not restrict the choice of target Station. When a Stribble has been successfully performed, the top-most Token of the Stribbled Stack is moved to the specified Station, the second = Token (if there is any) is moved one Station less (along the same line), and so on. If this placing of Tokens would cause a violation of Rule 1.14.3, any unplaceable Tokens disappear. Upon performing a Stribble, the Stribbler has eir Line Velocity = reduced to zero. Insert in: Rule 1.7.2 - Actions = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Stribble to ] Post 1.7.x -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 745 - Exchange Commission [Multiple] -Amend the final paragraph of Rule 1.7.21 to read: The Opposite Actions ([Silver to Gold] etc.) may be performed, but at double the exchange rate: thus, 4 Silver Tokens are needed to change into 1 Gold. -Amend the Action table accordingly. {Comment: Removing the focus on Bank, but demanding double the exchange rate instead... after all, when changing one's currency at a bureau de change, they always rip you off.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 746 - Blue in the face... [Multiple] -Amend Rule 1.7.21 Token Exchange table to give 3 Blue Tokens to one Gold. {Comment: Blues seem to me to be just a bit too hard to come by in quantity at the moment, especially given the vast number of Actions which require Blue Tokens.} -Change the token gain for Passing, in the Token Table to "1 Plastic Token of any colour". {Comment: Yes, I know Blues and Greens are most likely to be chosen, but the player might conceivably be short of Reds or Blacks instead. (For instance, wanting the tenth to get a Bonanza.) Besides, I don't like the idea of a guaranteed 2 tokens for a Pass when one has to be very careful in playing and passing through Interchanges to get 2 tokens as the result of a Move: the reward for a Pass shouldn't IMHO be greater than the reward for an average move (which may well not involve landing on an interchange at all, or necessarily passing through one.) And allowing it to be 1 Green for a Pass simply reflects the fact that the Token could be Recycled into a Green anyway.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 747 - Stationary Shunts*** [Multiple] If a Player has an LV of zero after eir Movement Phase and shares a Station and Line with another Player, e may play the Action of [Stationary Shunting to ]. The effect of this is as if a standard Shunt had been played with an LV of 1, but with the following differences: -The Actioning Player may not take any Tokens or Possessions from the Target Player. -The Target Player may not, on eir next Turn, play any Action which directly targets the Actioning Player. Action: [Stationary-Shunting to ] Post, 1 Red. {Comment: A way to get rid of a persistent Shadower. Also, the only shunt that is permitted from a Wild...} -Add the following to Rule 1.10.1: A Player may not perform a Shunt if eir LV is at zero (for instance, directly after a Pass or a Special Move.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 748 - Second Hand Goods... [Multiple] -Add the following text to Rule 1.4.18: A Player may sell any of the above goods ([Selling ]) back to the Emporium at half price (rounding all fractions down) provided e is at a Station where that item may be Purchased. New Action: [Selling ] Neut, +(x/2) Br. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 749 - Reverse The Polarity Of The Neutron Flow [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.46 (Electroplate Blues) to:- A Player may perform the "[Electroplating]" Action, if eir Charge is = at least fifty more or fifty less than that of every other Player. Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains a Gold Token. { Adding fifty *less* as an optional alternative, and to make the aspect = a bit more interesting in minimal-player games (if Player A rushes off to get a high Charge and Player B rushes after to prevent it, Player C can sidle away and achieve a low one). } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 750 - Do You Suppose He Meant The Camaargue? [Amendment] In Rule 3.1.1 (Chateau d'Eau), replace "Narg Clamps may be removed at "Cite"." with "Narg Clamps may not be played." { They're *horrible* on the Metro, after all. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 751 - Et Pourquoi Pas? [Amendment] Dans Rule 3.1.4 (Station Classifications), ajoutent:- "Mont" =3D Hill. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 19 21:53:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14006 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 04:53:44 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 04:53:44 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA16035; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:53:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015888; Thu, 20 May 99 14:53:13 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:52:55 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:52:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: FW: Comments on (my) Week 5 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal comments from my ill-fated variable move times proposal below, which I'd like to answer. Maybe then someone can tell me if it's worth reproposing: > Prop 733 > "I don't believe in variable-length moves... it's not as if one is > *actually* on the trains. I view the game more as being moving pieces > round a board, not getting on and off trains..." > > "Sorry for not saying this on the list, but this seems quite wrong to > me. Surely the whole point of increasing velocity is that you can move > a > larger in the *same* time?" > OK, this is fair. And the velocity point is well made; a bow to my unknown commentator. Kevan complained a while back that people were moving too quickly; notably, he didn't lower the line velocity maximum but rather eliminated the bonuses for passing through interchanges. This, to my mind, implies that the real problem is people doing overly complex multi-line fandagos in Quadrant 0 with the intent to pick up all the bonuses. Certainly I agree that it seems almost against the spirit of the game to go from Charing Cross to Leicester Square via Green Park, Baker Street, Paddington and who-knows-where else. And I am as guilty of doing that as anyone else. As an aside, people will always try to maximise the number of tokens they collect each turn - that's the way of the game. This would seem to suggest that Kevan's aforementioned amendment was not really a complete fix. Am I reading Kevan's intent correctly? Now, I thought that with P733 I would include a penalty for changing lines. The idea here is that complex move, with many line changes and lots of distance covered, would take longer; it means that you can do a simple move and some complex Actions, or some simple Actions and a complex move, but not both (without time extension). This would be working along the same line as Kevan's intent (which I agree with). #1: We're moving pieces on a board to simulate travel on the LU, surely? While Cluedo is a board game, for example, you're simulating moving round a real mansion. Some of our moves may be a little more unusual, but surely going to gaol in Monopoly is similar? #2: Velocity surely does mean you travel further in a given time. However, what about changing trains? If you really want to get technical, the trains move at a relatively constant velocity so a longer move _does_ take more time, and thus our term 'Line Velocity' is a misnomer. I'm certainly not proposing a change to the name LV, but it's not really talking about the velocity of a line is it either? I may be biased, but I don't think either of these are really good reasons. Is there one part of this proposal (such as, for #2, the distance formula) that is unacceptable while the rest of it is sound? Please let me know, because I really think this is a good idea. Have fun, anyway, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 00:25:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12226 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 07:24:59 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 07:24:59 -0000 Received: from opus (p410-035.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.216.163]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23040 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 08:02:33 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00a701bea286$5c9a8360$a3d852c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:01:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: FW: Comments on (my) Week 5 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had thought of making a variant where LV is _Line_ Velocity, not pLayer Velocity. Each Line could have its own (changable, of course) Velocity, and the Players would have to cope with that. There should, of course, be something to regulate changing from, say, a LV3-line to a LV10-line. Ole Paul wrote: :#2: Velocity surely does mean you travel further in a given time. However, :what about changing trains? If you really want to get technical, the trains :move at a relatively constant velocity so a longer move _does_ take more :time, and thus our term 'Line Velocity' is a misnomer. I'm certainly not :proposing a change to the name LV, but it's not really talking about the :velocity of a line is it either? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 20 04:46:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 28509 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 11:46:46 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 11:46:46 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 May 1999 12:46:46 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7i0sn6$oo74@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:46:46 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <374832b1.5711801@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 6 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 739 - Radio Control [Multiple] This seems very confusing; there's a lot of scope for interpretation in "moving parallel", and how do you keep track of which Controller controls which Clamp? Also, since you can only Clamp someone who shares a Station as you, surely the Controllee is just going to follow the Controller precisely? Strangeness. Not a bad general idea, though, and Electrical Possessions seem particularly neat. Maybe this Rule would work better if the owner of a Radio Controller could issue an "[Ordering to ]" for any Player who has a Clamp, and where Station is within that Player's LV range - all Stations other than that one are then Invalid Moves for that Player, during eir next Turn. Or they just get penalised if they Move anywhere else. Hmm. > Proposal 740 - A Wether Was Once A Ram [Enactment] Quite strange to see my dear old Garden Nomic weather proposal unearthed. Although pleasant enough in its style, it really doesn't seem to fit the game very well - the percussions of some of the Weathers are entirely too powerful or awkward, and none of them affect the one (perhaps only) thing in the Game that Weather *should* affect; namely Walking. One of the Underground's glorious things is that you can vanish from a surface world of sunshine, and emerge ten minutes later in pouring rain, the change in weather entirely unnoticed during your journey. The only real impositions the weather might make would be to hamper walks between stations, and mayhap (with the wrong kind of snow) to delay British Rail trains. This seems too little impact to warrant faffing around with dice, to me. > Proposal 741 - It was thi-i-is big! [Multiple] Oh dear, this really is turning into Garden Nomic. Although the Backtracking Action is quite excellent and should perhaps be implemented as a normal Action, the Fishing side doesn't seem to add much, and sushi from the Thames doesn't appeal particularly; buying a Hat and then Fishing for something that might be better than the comestible you could have bought in the first place - not very enticing. As I say, Backtracking is nice, but the odds of anyone ever getting the Boot to do it seem quite a shame. >Proposal 742 - Don't Bomb the Chinese Embassy! [Amendment] Personally I lack a PDF viewer, so this Proposal doesn't especially appeal to me. I think we had this conversation before, a couple of years ago; it's better to reference a map that most people can access from any computer, than a nicer or more recent one that requires special software. If anyone's willing to make a JPG format image of the PDF for the Web page, though, I suppose that'd be alright... Having said that, the superfluous Lines on this new Map make things a bit awkward, having to include rules that tell us to ignore them, so maybe we're better off keeping the existing one. > Proposal 743 - Mindbocklingly... [Action] Very nice; a more precise variation of Knip. The cheapness is a little bothersome, but the fact that it's an all-Player inconvenience seems to balance this. Good stuff. > Proposal 744 - Stribble me Timbers... [Action] Whether this is a good or bad thing, I'm not sure. It allows the easy destruction of Kafka Sinkholes and patterned Stacks, and can set up the fallen Tokens to be collected in one swoop (although the twice-LV bit stops you getting them next Turn, of course; more of a Team thing, and I suppose tricky enough to warrant the reward). Mmm. Interesting. Worth trying, I think. Stribbling does make it sound too much like a Piece Move Action to me, though. It must be a "Str*ing" thing. > Proposal 745 - Exchange Commission [Multiple] Hmm. Double rates seems harsh, but maybe it's a step worth taking; "Bank then Crescent" seems too common a victory route, the way things are these days. > Proposal 746 - Blue in the face... [Multiple] > > -Amend Rule 1.7.21 Token Exchange table to give 3 Blue Tokens to >one Gold. >{Comment: Blues seem to me to be just a bit too hard to come by in >quantity at the moment, especially given the vast number of Actions >which require Blue Tokens.} Passing does seem the most common way to get them these days, this is true, and it certainly shouldn't be the case. > -Change the token gain for Passing, in the Token Table to "1 >Plastic Token of any colour". > {Comment: Yes, I know Blues and Greens are most likely to be >chosen, but the player might conceivably be short of Reds or Blacks >instead. (For instance, wanting the tenth to get a Bonanza.) Besides, I >don't like the idea of a guaranteed 2 tokens for a Pass when one has to >be very careful in playing and passing through Interchanges to get 2 >tokens as the result of a Move: the reward for a Pass shouldn't IMHO be >greater than the reward for an average move. Stopping to think about it, the only reason I originally proposed the Token bonus for Passing in the first place was to provide a way out of a bad situation; I dimly remember Yao getting stuck on the Northern somewhere, lacking the Tokens to overcome eir problems, and being unable to perform a Move that would get him any. This proposal seems a good solution to the problem of Passing being far too common. Another might be only to award the Tokens if the Player doesn't have any of that colour already. As Game 15 shows, it's a bit too easy to stockpile Tokens by continual passing, particularly when you've got nothing better to do. >Proposal 747 - Stationary Shunts*** [Multiple] A nice little displacement Shunt, and a manoeuvre I've used a fair bit in IMCS-regulated Crescent. Bravo, there. Two things, though:- > -The Target Player may not, on eir next Turn, play any Action which >directly targets the Actioning Player. No? I'd say you deserved all you got, really. There's mention of it shaking persistent Shadowers, but I think most Shadowers are likely to give up if your LV is zero. > -Add the following to Rule 1.10.1: > A Player may not perform a Shunt if eir LV is at zero (for >instance, directly after a Pass or a Special Move.) This is already in there, actually, at the end of the first paragraph. >Proposal 748 - Second Hand Goods... [Multiple] Hmm. I suppose so. It does provide an easy and lucrative way to dispose of a stolen Zone Pass, rather than just discarding it, but I suppose such is fair enough, really. Touting, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 06:56:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9053 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 13:56:13 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 13:56:13 -0000 Received: from opus (p129-59.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.203.59]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17598 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:56:10 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000a01bea2c8$82827820$3bcb52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:39:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 6 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :>Proposal 739 - Radio Control [Multiple] : :This seems very confusing; there's a lot of scope for interpretation in :"moving parallel", and how do you keep track of which Controller controls :which Clamp? That's the weak part, methinks. I doubt it will be used too much. The penalty when the Controllee catches the Controller should scare some people off. :Also, since you can only Clamp someone who shares a Station :as you, surely the Controllee is just going to follow the Controller :precisely? Strangeness. Nope. The Controllee is not bothered at all, as long as the Radio Control is Off. : :Not a bad general idea, though, and Electrical Possessions seem :particularly neat. Maybe this Rule would work better if the owner of a :Radio Controller could issue an "[Ordering to ]" for :any Player who has a Clamp, and where Station is within that Player's :LV range - all Stations other than that one are then Invalid Moves for :that Player, during eir next Turn. Or they just get penalised if they :Move anywhere else. Hmm. That could be a nice implementation, too. This one was stolen from RoboRally. : :> Proposal 740 - A Wether Was Once A Ram [Enactment] : :Quite strange to see my dear old Garden Nomic weather proposal unearthed. :Although pleasant enough in its style, it really doesn't seem to fit the :game very well - the percussions of some of the Weathers are entirely too :powerful or awkward, and none of them affect the one (perhaps only) thing :in the Game that Weather *should* affect; namely Walking. You might be right. There is a typo in the 'smog' entry, btw. The word 'Actions' is missing between 'all' and 'performed'. :> Proposal 741 - It was thi-i-is big! [Multiple] : :Oh dear, this really is turning into Garden Nomic. Although the :Backtracking Action is quite excellent and should perhaps be implemented :as a normal Action, the Fishing side doesn't seem to add much, and sushi :from the Thames doesn't appeal particularly; buying a Hat and then :Fishing for something that might be better than the comestible you could :have bought in the first place - not very enticing. As I say, Backtracking :is nice, but the odds of anyone ever getting the Boot to do it seem quite :a shame. You might be right, again. : :>Proposal 742 - Don't Bomb the Chinese Embassy! [Amendment] : :Personally I lack a PDF viewer, so this Proposal doesn't especially appeal :to me. I think we had this conversation before, a couple of years ago; :it's better to reference a map that most people can access from any :computer, than a nicer or more recent one that requires special software. :If anyone's willing to make a JPG format image of the PDF for the Web page, :though, I suppose that'd be alright... : :Having said that, the superfluous Lines on this new Map make things a :bit awkward, having to include rules that tell us to ignore them, so :maybe we're better off keeping the existing one. : A new map. It is also available as .jpg at the same site, named zone_big.jpg (Check it out before you change the text. I might be wrong.) Jubilee Line has grown (or the need for Hard Hats has diminished). How do we treat 'Connections with National Railwithin walking distance'? And do we get National Rail Hats in lieu of BR Hats? :> Proposal 743 - Mindbocklingly... [Action] : :Very nice; a more precise variation of Knip. The cheapness is a little :bothersome, but the fact that it's an all-Player inconvenience seems to :balance this. Good stuff. Encyclopaedia Morningtonia: Bock The state of Bock usually affects the whole game, although variants which affect only single quadrants have been seen. Bock is a Coloured state, acting as a filter on same-coloured stations, moves and manouevres; and also affecting Spin through escalator links and Main line stations. Cross-hatched Bock is possible although rarely used as the effects are very slight and the maintenance cost high. [HR] I did not get all of it, but most, I think. There is a Douglas Adams reference too, btw. :> Proposal 744 - Stribble me Timbers... [Action] : :Whether this is a good or bad thing, I'm not sure. It allows the easy :destruction of Kafka Sinkholes and patterned Stacks, and can set up :the fallen Tokens to be collected in one swoop (although the twice-LV :bit stops you getting them next Turn, of course; more of a Team thing, :and I suppose tricky enough to warrant the reward). Mmm. Interesting. :Worth trying, I think. : :Stribbling does make it sound too much like a Piece Move Action to me, :though. It must be a "Str*ing" thing. : A Shunt variation. Usable only on Token Stacks, so far. No Dead-End Stribbling, either. :> Proposal 745 - Exchange Commission [Multiple] : :Hmm. Double rates seems harsh, but maybe it's a step worth taking; :"Bank then Crescent" seems too common a victory route, the way things :are these days. I like keeping the Bank. Could we have both? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 07:57:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20966 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 14:57:24 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 14:57:24 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22196 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:57:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23324 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:57:14 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id PAA25872; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:57:14 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905201457.PAA25872@u...> Date: 20 May 99 15:55:48 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: An Apology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: Just a brief note to apologise for my slow play over the last few weeks. It will come as no surprise if I plead that the same over-abundance of reality which has blighted my Speaking of late has affected my play also. Moves will follow in all the Games I am currently holding up. Once again, sorry - and thanks for not being more aggressive in timing me out. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 09:42:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29274 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 16:41:59 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 16:41:59 -0000 Received: from modem-96.cerium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.28.224] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10kVtO-0000U2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:41:58 +0100 Message-ID: <002201bea2e1$375dfb80$e01c883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:52:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: FW: Comments on (my) Week 5 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "I don't believe in variable-length moves... it's not as if one is >> *actually* on the trains. I view the game more as being moving pieces >> round a board, not getting on and off trains..." >> >> "Sorry for not saying this on the list, but this seems quite wrong to >> me. Surely the whole point of increasing velocity is that you can move >> a >> larger in the *same* time?" >OK, this is fair. And the velocity point is well made; a bow to my unknown >commentator. Me, actually. >Kevan complained a while back that people were moving too quickly; notably, >he didn't lower the line velocity maximum but rather eliminated the bonuses >for passing through interchanges. This, to my mind, implies that the real >problem is people doing overly complex multi-line fandagos in Quadrant 0 >with the intent to pick up all the bonuses. My suggestion is either (1) the current state of play, which I prefer, or if a fix is desired then (2) that the bonus for passing through interchanges should only apply if the player does not change Line at that interchange... thus, moving Charing Cross to Leicester Square could be done with a "multi-line fandango" (nice phrase there), but would only score tokens based on the number of interchanges *not* changed at. This seems to me a much simpler solution. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 09:47:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32391 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 16:47:00 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 16:47:00 -0000 Received: from modem-96.cerium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.28.224] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10kVyF-0001Sc-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:47:00 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01bea2e1$eb11b4a0$e01c883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:57:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 6 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Proposal 747 - Stationary Shunts*** [Multiple] > >A nice little displacement Shunt, and a manoeuvre I've used a fair bit >in IMCS-regulated Crescent. Bravo, there. >Two things, though:- >> -The Target Player may not, on eir next Turn, play any Action which >>directly targets the Actioning Player. >No? I'd say you deserved all you got, really. There's mention of it >shaking persistent Shadowers, but I think most Shadowers are likely to >give up if your LV is zero. Yes, but otherwise there is no protection against the Shadower switching to a Shunt (potentially gaining a Gold Token), Blonk, Clamp or Velocity Bomb. The idea being that this is a defensive measure, allowing the player to escape from a Shadowing without being ruined next go. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 10:23:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24747 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 17:23:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 17:23:23 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03319 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:23:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA30621 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:23:20 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id SAA01675; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:23:20 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905201723.SAA01675@u...> Date: 20 May 99 18:21:36 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-446-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 20-May-99 17:52 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: FW: Comments on (my) Week 5 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jonathan wrote: > Me, actually. No, me in fact - your comment is the first paragraph; my comment is the second. My own preference is to leave the basic move duration the same, but to penalise line changes in time (say, five minutes each). I'll do more substantive comments when I'm not rushing to get away from my desk before being dragged into a conversation I have no interest in. (BTW, I'm Spartacus) -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Thu May 20 13:23:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25823 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 19:30:58 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 19:30:58 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.206] (dhcp9542206.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.206]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA05690 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:36:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:33:37 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 6 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >:> Proposal 745 - Exchange Commission [Multiple] >: >:Hmm. Double rates seems harsh, but maybe it's a step worth taking; >:"Bank then Crescent" seems too common a victory route, the way things >:are these days. > >I like keeping the Bank. Could we have both? I agree... perhaps you could get the correct exchange rate at Bank, and the more expensive one anywhere else? cheers, --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 15:51:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8172 invoked by uid 7770); 20 May 1999 22:51:03 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 22:51:03 -0000 Received: from modem-100.scholar.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.142.100] helo=franz-liszt) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10kbeY-0005cX-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:51:02 +0100 Message-ID: <018401bea314$c66788e0$648e883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:02:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 6 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 739 - Radio Control [Multiple] I agree with Kevan's comments - an interesting idea but impractical as stated. Proposal 740 - A Wether Was Once A Ram [Enactment] ...and again, this isn't Garden Nomic - whether you see MC games as actually getting on an off trains, or as a board game (played with or without the "board" (map) in front of one), in neither case ought it to be affected by the weather. Leaves on the line, yes. Normal rain or sunshine, no. Likewise the Fishing one - we already have one way of trying to get a random result - the "Lost Property": gambling 2 Bronze tokens on the chance of getting a better - or perhaps worse - result. (A fitting tribute to the long and honourable history of MC as a gambling game.) Do we really need another mechanism which is simply a different "gamble" in addition to this? Proposal 742 - Don't Bomb the Chinese Embassy! [Amendment] I didn't realise that some people had problems with computers seeing .pdf formats, but then I'm not entirely computer-literate. Mine showed it fine, and I haven't added any progams to what came with the package apart from a couple of games. So I naturally presumed that it could be read by all. I mainly liked this map because it was the only one with both the Finsbury extra lines *and* the Zones marked on, as well as the Jubilee extension. (I wonder when they'll admit to the Docklands extension to Lewisham.) But if you use such a map, of course one has to put in a mention that these lines don't count as part of the standard game. Proposal 743 - Mindbocklingly... [Action] Great idea. However, a Point of Order for the author of the Proposal and the Speaker: it is a new Game State, and as such belongs in Section 1.8 with the Game States rather than Section 1.7 (Actions). Proposal 744 - Stribble me Timbers... [Action] All for it. Another good idea. Proposal 749 - Reverse The Polarity Of The Neutron Flow [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.46 (Electroplate Blues) to:- Personally I'm not keen on Electroplating at all. But while it exists, this is as good an idea as any to add to it. Proposal 750 - Do You Suppose He Meant The Camaargue? [Amendment] >In Rule 3.1.1 (Chateau d'Eau), replace "Narg Clamps may be removed at "Cite"." with "Narg Clamps may not be played." Sorry... I was still thinking with my own personal Paris Metro map, where a lot of the lines *are* straight. I forgot that they aren't straight on the internet map of the metro. Good call. Narg seems almost too powerful *anyway*, especially when combined with Knid (to prevent Wilding to Tottenham Court Road) and/or Knip (no token expenditure) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 20 21:50:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10643 invoked by uid 7770); 21 May 1999 04:50:53 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 May 1999 04:50:53 -0000 Received: from opus (p418-055.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.220.183]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA07357 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 06:50:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <005c01bea345$7f4d5d00$b7dc52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 06:31:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Withdrawal of props 739 and 740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hereby withdraw props 739 and 740. I'll make a couple of proposals next week, using parts of these props. Hopefully I have made a correct analysis as to which parts to reuse. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 21 01:22:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3702 invoked by uid 7770); 21 May 1999 08:21:59 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 May 1999 08:21:59 -0000 Received: from opus (p432-021.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.199.21]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA17275 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:21:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008301bea362$f760eec0$52dd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:31:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Withdrawal of 741 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to withdraw 741, as well. Ole -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Ole Andersen Til: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Dato: 21. maj 1999 06:50 Emne: MN: Withdrawal of props 739 and 740 :I hereby withdraw props 739 and 740. : :I'll make a couple of proposals next week, using parts of these props. :Hopefully I have made a correct analysis as to which parts to reuse. : : :Ole : : :------------------------------------------------------------------------ :Too much effort to find the stock info you want each day? StockMaster :lets you enter a company name and quickly shows you a daily quote, :chart, and news all on one page. Free! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/71 : : :eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d :http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications : : : : : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 21 01:38:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11261 invoked by uid 7770); 21 May 1999 08:38:51 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 May 1999 08:38:51 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06187 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:38:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28588 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:38:44 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA14861; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:38:43 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905210838.JAA14861@u...> Date: 21 May 99 09:35:56 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-451-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 21-May-99 08:31 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Withdrawal of 741 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just acknowledging those withdrawals. I'll still comment on them, if I may, when I get around to commenting (hopefully later today... lunchtime doesn't exactly hang heavy, but it can be a time for quite contemplation after the hurly burly of a morning's debugging). -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 21 06:27:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21408 invoked by uid 7770); 21 May 1999 13:27:23 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 May 1999 13:27:23 -0000 Received: from opus (p140-55.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.247]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA05422 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:27:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000e01bea38d$a6c81800$f7cd52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:20:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Withdrawal of 741 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: I'll still comment on them, if I may, ### Sure, go ahead. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 24 11:33:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10460 invoked by uid 7770); 24 May 1999 18:33:05 -0000 Received: from mail10.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.214) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 May 1999 18:33:05 -0000 Received: from modem-22.bandleader.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.122.150] helo=franz-liszt) by mail10.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10lz4q-0006cx-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:03:53 +0100 Message-ID: <00db01bea614$20680fc0$967a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:34:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Still testing... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Still testing... I sent a test message to the long game lounge and have had no reply. Freeserve mail server has been having problems lately (including 48 hours non-operational, and now it asks me to re-input my password every time I try to get mail.) Could *somebody* mail me back to tell me if this has arrived, as otherwise I won't know whether it's my outgoing mail gone wrong (if it isn't reaching the server) or my incoming mail server (if the message reaches the server but doesn't come back to me.) I've tried testing to see if I'd been unsubscribed from the list, but a ping to the manager has come back with a "you are still subscribed" message... Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 24 16:47:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3322 invoked by uid 7770); 24 May 1999 23:47:51 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 May 1999 23:47:51 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA29991; Tue, 25 May 1999 09:47:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029834; Tue, 25 May 99 09:47:34 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 25 May 1999 09:47:11 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:47:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Illegal game state documents Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, Just a nudge in the way of politeness; a lot of people are replying to GSDs with buzzes and commentaries that are not actual GSDs. This, last time I checked, was actually illegal, which in Nomic terms means that as long as it goes unpunished it's fine. :-) Or has that rule been repealed? Haben sie fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 25 00:29:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26117 invoked by uid 7770); 25 May 1999 07:29:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 May 1999 07:29:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22730; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:29:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15109; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:29:04 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id IAA02625; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:29:04 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905250729.IAA02625@u...> Date: 25 May 99 08:25:37 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Cc: jonathan@f... X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-454-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 24-May-99 19:34 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Still testing... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message arrived fine. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 25 00:37:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29017 invoked by uid 7770); 25 May 1999 07:36:27 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 May 1999 07:36:27 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24894 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:36:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn43 (uksn43.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.18]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19570 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:36:25 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn43 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA12925; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:36:25 +0100 Message-Id: <199905250736.IAA12925@uksn43> Date: 25 May 99 08:30:44 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UNX8.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-455-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 25-May-99 00:47 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Illegal game state documents Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Just a nudge in the way of politeness; a lot of people are replying to GSDs > with buzzes and commentaries that are not actual GSDs. This, last time I > checked, was actually illegal, which in Nomic terms means that as long as it > goes unpunished it's fine. :-) Or has that rule been repealed? I know the rule you mean, but I think it was repealed some time ago (not perhaps explicitly, but possibly as part of a general reorg in that area). I can't see any mention of it now, at any rate. But the point is sound - if you're buzzing, it helps to make it obvious in the subject line that this is what you're doing. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue May 25 02:57:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23014 invoked by uid 7770); 25 May 1999 09:57:17 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 May 1999 09:57:17 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 May 1999 10:57:17 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ids5t$bicv@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:57:17 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <199905250736.IAA12925@uksn43> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Illegal game state documents Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know the rule you mean, but I think it was repealed some time ago (not > perhaps explicitly, but possibly as part of a general reorg in that area). > > I can't see any mention of it now, at any rate. It used to be a hefty Kudos penalty, I think. I've a feeling we ditched it because it was being a bit too harsh for carelessness, and because most people were remembering. > But the point is sound - if you're buzzing, it helps to make it obvious in > the subject line that this is what you're doing. Indeed; I've been guilty a bit lately, but only when replying to non-GSDs without reading their subject lines. Heigh ho. As a thought, incidentally, does anyone have the technology and inclination to automate the "Current Game States" update? It'd be handy to have a simple Web page that listed these things, that was automatically updated simply by scanning someone's email. No idea how to do it myself, but such would be a welcome alternative to wading through eGroups and checking the most recent GSDs (wading angrily, of course, through postings that echo the subject line but turn out to be something else). Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue May 25 04:49:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6036 invoked by uid 7770); 25 May 1999 11:49:53 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 May 1999 11:49:53 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26071 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:49:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16774 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:49:39 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id MAA27781; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:49:39 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905251149.MAA27781@u...> Date: 25 May 99 12:47:33 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-458-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 25-May-99 10:57 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Illegal game state documents Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >As a thought, incidentally, does anyone have the technology and inclination= to >automate the "Current Game States" update? It'd be handy to have a simple Web >page that listed these things, that was automatically updated simply by >scanning someone's email. No idea how to do it myself, but such would be a = >welcome alternative to wading through eGroups and checking the most recent = >GSDs (wading angrily, of course, through postings that echo the subject line >but turn out to be something else). I think my answer to that would be 'possibly' - I'm buying some space on a web server with CGI and general server-side capability. I see no reason why that= couldn't host exactly such a facility, although the how is another matter. More soon (this week with any luck). -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 25 14:47:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12610 invoked by uid 7770); 25 May 1999 21:47:51 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 May 1999 21:47:51 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mP31-000Akk-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:47:43 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:45:20 GMT Message-ID: <374d11d7.3629094@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Seven -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] Rule 1.8.x - Venbacker Ladder A Player may perform the Action of "[Venbacker Ladder]" to put such a Ladder into effect. While a Venbacker Ladder is in effect, a Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number lower than the Move played by the previous Actioning Player is Invalid, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Ladder Sidestep]" Action during that Turn. A Player may perform the Action of "[Terminating Ladder]" to end a Venbacker Ladder, provided that eir piece is situated at the Station with the highest Venbacker Number in the Game. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Ladder Sidestep] Pre 1.8.2 -3 Bk [Venbacker Ladder Pre 1.8.2 -2 Bu [Terminating Ladder] Post 1.8.2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 753 - Whimsy Shortfall [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.9.4 (Fish and Fowl) to remove the Lyttleton Trophy. { Comment: This was a stupid idea in the first place, proposed on a whim, and bitterly regretted since. And this is without having had any applause = to tally... } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 754 - Stack In The Mud [Multiple] { Comment: the limit on the number of token stacks has been largely irrelevant ever since the introduction of Quadrant Zero and the non-adjacent Quadrant restriction. This is particularly true when the Token Stacks table is being used to document Station contents (Suspect Packages, Flags, etc) (in fact we probably ought to change the = name...). This is particularly true if tokens for a particular Action all have to go in the same place (as suggested by Jonathan). } [Amendment: Piles and Piles] Amend Rule 1.14.3 (Token Dropping) such that its final paragraph reads = thus:=3D "A Player may not place a Token on a Stack if it already has six Tokens in it." [Amendment: Keep Together, Please!] Amend Rule 1.4.19 (Token Tracking) to add the following bullet point: * All Tokens paid for a particular Action must be placed on the same Stack. Any Tokens surplus to the capacity of the Stack are destroyed. { Comment: the rest is just removing collateral references to token stack limits. } [Amendment: Suspect Evidence] Amend Rule 1.4.7 (Suspect Packages) such that its third paragraph reads thus: If there are less than three Suspect Packages in play, any Player may create a Suspect Package with the Neutral Action "[Dropping Package at ]", where "" is the Actioning Player's current location, or any Station e has passed through so far this Turn. [End of Stack In The Mud] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 755 - Radio Control [Multiple] Rule 1.10.x - Radiation A Player possessing a Remote Control may perform the Action of "Radiating ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, also known as the Controller. The Radiated Player, also known as the Controllee, gains a "Radio = Clamp" Indestructable Possession. A Controllee may remove a Radio Clamp by playing the "De-Radiating" while sharing a Station and Line with eir Controller. This causes the Remote Control to explode, causing Light Damage to the Station = occupied by the Controller, as well as destroying one Token of each colour, belonging to the Controller, if e has any. If a Remote Control is destroyed, except by "De-Radiating", the corresponding Radio Clamp is destroyed, too. Each Radio Control has a unique number, assigned to it by the purchasing Player at the time of the Purchase. The Radio Clamp, once created, gets the same number as its corresponding Radio Control. The Controller of a given Radio Control, identified by may, if = the Radio Control is On, perform the following Actions: * [Radio Clamp LV+X] to add X, which may be no larger = than 3, to the LV of the possessor of the Radio Clamp identified by . * [Radio Clamp LV-X] to deduct X, which may be no larger than 3, from the LV of the possessor of the Radio Clamp identified by = . * [Radio Clamp to ] to command the possessor of the = Radio Clamp identified by to Move to on eir next Turn. The Station must be within the LV of the Controllee. If the Controllee Moves = to another Station, and the Radio = Control is On at the time of the Move, e = Loses a Metal Token, if e has any. Rule 1.4.x - Zzzzzzzzzzap! Electric Possessions are either On or Off, Off being the default. A Player can switch one of eir Electric Possessions On or Off by using the Neutral Action [ On] or [ Off], respectively. If the Circle Line is in an Electrified State, all Electric = Possessions are Off. Insert in Emporium Table +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Remote Control (Off)| 3 Br | Small, Electric | Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [De-Radiating] Neut 1.10.x -1 Re -1 Bu [Radiating ] Neut 1.10.x -3 Re [Radio Clamp LV+X] Post 1.10.x -1 Re [Radio Clamp LV-X] Post 1.10.x -1 Re [Radio Clamp to ] Neut 1.10.x -1 Re [ Off] Neut 1.4.x none [ On] Neut 1.4.x none -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] Rule 1.9.x - Soap on the Tracks. During eir Turn, any Player may perform the post-Move action "[Soap on ()]", where "" is the Line Code of the ActioningPlayer's most recent Move. When this is performed, the specified Line is Soaped for one Round. If a Line is Soaped:- * Any Shunting on the Line causes the Shunting Player to skid along with the Shunted Player, both ending in the same place. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Soap on ()] Pre 1.9.x -2 Bu -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] Rule 1.8.x - Sgronk! A Player may perform the Action "[Sgronk!]" to put the Game in the = State of Sgronk. If the Game is in Sgronk, a Piece Move which involves passing through = a Station with a Token Stack is Invalid. If, at any time, there are no Token Stacks with two or more Tokens in them, the Game immediately leaves the State of Sgronk. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Sgronk!] Pre 1.8.x 20 -3 Bu -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] New Rule 1.7.x - Following the Wet Footprints A Player may perform the Action "[Backtracking]". If Circle Line is Electrified, no Backtracking is possible. When a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Backtracking]", eir LV = is set to zero - for the remainder of eir Turn, the Station to which e = made eir last Standard Move is a Valid Move, and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Backtracking]" Action. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Backtracking] Pre 1.7.x -2 Bk -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 759 - Volume Control [Amendment] { Comment: The ruleset is rather large. This Proposal intends to allow it to be split into more than one file in a meaningful way. As an aside, it also fixes a bit of obsolete terminology: what we've = all been calling a Section is defined to be a Subset in the current = version; and there's still a reference to Transmutation which died literally years ago. The second paragraph here is the new one. } Amend Rule 0.2.3 (Numbering) such that it reads thus: Rules shall be numbered for reference purposes, with three numbers in = the format "[Volume].[Section].[Rule]" (eg. "1.3.4"), Volume and Section = being defined in the Ruleset's Table of Contents, and Rule being an integer = number used to distinguish between Rules within the same Section. The Ruleset itself may be split across multiple files. Each file must include the complete Table of Contents, and an indication of which parts of the Ruleset are contained within it. New Rules shall be placed in a Volume and Section of the Speaker's = choice upon their Enactment. They shall have a Rule number equal to the next successive integer number after that of the last Rule in the relevant Section. Proposals shall be numbered with successive integers which carry on from week to week and bear no relation to the Rule numbers. If a Rule is Amended its number does not change. Repealing one Rule = does not affect the Rule number of any Rule, except the one Repealed, which is then removed. A Renumbering Proposal allows the Speaker to rearrange the Rule = Numbers in a Section. The Rules in that Section shall be numbered with the lowest ordinal Rule receiving the Rule Number 1, the next lowest 2, = and so on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 760 - Disruptive Behaviour [Multiple] { Comment: We're losing a lot of GSD header space to documenting game states which don't change much. Better to move them into the Disruptions board, I would say. } [Amendment: More Than Just Leaves On The Line] Amend Rule 1.2.2 (Disrupted Services) such that its second paragraph reads thus: Any Station, Line Segment, component of the Map whose access is restricted by Player action, or Game State restricting Player actions where that effect does not have a definite duration (eg one Round) = shall be recorded in this box along with an indication of the nature of the effect. The sequence of items in the box shall match the order in = which the disruptions occurred. [Amendment: Cascade Failure] Amend Rule 1.8.2 (Parks and Greens Cascade) by adding the following paragraph: While a Parks and Greens Cascade is active, this is indicated in Disruptions by the string "Parks and Greens". [Amendment: Abridged Too Far] Amend Rule 1.8.3 (Bridges) so that its first paragraph reads thus: The Game shall have a "Bridges" state, being either "Up" or "Down". When Bridges are Up, this shall be indicated in Disruptions by the string "Bridges Up". [Amendment: Little Knipper] Amend Rule 1.8.4 (Knip) by adding the following paragraph: While the Game is in Knip, this is indicated in Disruptions by the string "In Knip". [Amendment: Circular Logic] Amend Rule 1.8.4 (Circle Line States) such that its first paragraph reads thus: The Circle Line has four possible States - Normal, Clockwise, Anticlockwise and Electrified. The non-Normal States are represented = in Disruptions by the string "Circle" suffixed by the symbols "-->", = "<--" and "***" respectively. eg when the Circle is Electrified, "Circle ***" will be inserted into Disruptions [Amendment: Gaptoothed] Amend Rule 1.8.7 (Gapminding) by adding the following paragraph: While Gaps are being minded, this is indicated in Disruptions by the string "Gapminding". [Amendment: Spiral Bound] Amend Rule 1.19.5 (Charge Spiral) by adding the following paragraph: While a Charge Spiral is in effect, this is indicated in Disruptions by the following strings: - "Charge In" for a Inwards Spiral - "Charge Out" for an Outwards Spiral While we're at it, renumber this Rule into Section 1.8. { Comment: note that whilst I've added P&G, Gapminding and Charge Spiral to the indicated states, I've omitted loops. Since these are defined solely by the previous Piece's location it seems unnecessary. } [Amendment: Stating the Obvious] Amend Rule 1.2.0 (The Game State Document) such that its third paragraph reads thus: The GSD shall also include the following information in an appropriate format: Disruptions; Game Time; Wild Stations; Token Stacks; Courier Pick-up and Destination Stations. { Comment: removing incomplete and duplicate information. } { Final Comment: here's a suggested format for the GSD header without the obsolete stuff - +----------+------------------+----+----+----------------------+ | | | | | Tokens | | Player | Home | LV | CH | Bk Bu Br Go Gr Re Si | +----------+------------------+----+----+----------------------+ |*Drone | | 0 | 0 | 2 0 2 0 0 2 0 | +----------+------------------+----+----+----------------------+ +- Wild -------------------------------------------++-- Time --+ + || Day xxxx | +--------------------------------------------------++----------+ +--Possessions-------------------------------------------------+ | Drone | | +----------+---------------------------------------------------+ +- Stacks ------+--------------++---------------+--------------+ | | || | | +---------------+--------------++---------------+--------------+ +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Courier call from to | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ +- Disruptions ------------------------------------------------+ | Circle ***, Dollis Hill(peg) | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ } [End of Disruptive Behaviour] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] { Another one from the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia... } 1. The fFrobisher fFlourish [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [fFrobisher fFlourish] Neut 1.7.x -6 Bu =20 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[fFrobisher fFlourish]" to redistribute all the Tokens currently being carried by Players. After submitting a Turn containing this Action, the Actioning Player should roll seven dice, each with a number of sides equal to the number of Active Players in the Game. E must then perform the following calculations and post a summary of their results to the relevant Game Lounge. Firstly, all Players lose all of their Tokens; these are combined in a Pool. Each die roll should then be converted to a Player's name, according = to their position in the Playing Order (ignoring Inactive Players). For example, a die roll of three indicates the third Active Player in the Player Order. The following table is then referenced to determine what share of the Tokens from the Pool are given to each Player. "2" indicates half of the Tokens of that colour (rounded down), "1" indicates a quarter (also rounded down), and "r" indicates that the Player receives any Tokens left over of that colour, after the rest have been distributed. +------------------+----------------------+ | Die | Bk Bu Br Go Gr Re Si | +------------------+----------------------+ | First | 1 2 1 0 r 0 0 | | Second | 0 1 2 1 0 r 0 | | Third | 0 0 1 2 1 0 r | | Fourth | r 0 0 1 2 1 0 | | Fifth | 0 r 0 0 1 2 1 | | Sixth | 1 0 r 0 0 1 2 | | Seventh | 2 1 0 r 0 0 1 | +------------------+----------------------+ When the next Player takes eir Turn, e should - at the start of eir Turn - update the GSD to reflect the Token redistribution of the fFlourish. 2. Never Say Die [Amendment] To the end of Rule 0.1.3 (The Only Way To Die), add:- If a Player is required to make a die roll after eir Turn, that = Player's Turn is not considered to be complete until the roll is made; an incomplete Turn may be timed out as if it had not been made. If the results of the die roll should be interpreted by the rolling Player, = eir Turn is not considered complete until these interpretations have also been made. { Clarifying what should happen if someone forgets to roll a die, or - in the case of the fFlourish - to comment on the results. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 762 - To The Bottle Bank [Multiple] Reword Rule 1.7.39 (Ecofriendly) to:- A Player may perform the Neutral Action of "[Recycling]" to Recycle = any combination of Tokens and non-Indestructable Possessions which e is carrying (all of which should be listed in the comments section of the GSD). For each Token that is Recycled, the Actioning Player gains one Green Token. For each Possession listed in Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium) that = is Recycled, the Actioning Player gains Green Tokens equal to half the Bronze Token value of the Possession (rounded down). Recycling is considered to be a Token Exchange Action. Rename the "[Recycling ]" Action to "[Recycling]". { Being able to recycle multiple things at once seems like a good idea, rather than sluggishly generating a maximum of one Green per Turn. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 763 - Quail, Mortal [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Cowering] Post 1.7.x -1 Bu = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action "[Cowering]" if e fears for eir = safety. If a Player performs an Action which targets a Player who performed = the "[Cowering]" Action during eir most recent Turn, that Action's cost is increased by one Red Token. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.14.2 (Stack em High, Sell em Cheap) to:- If, after performing a [ Token on ] Action, or after placing Tokens spent in the performing of an Action, a Token Stack has six Tokens where it had less than six before, the current Player may be eligible for a Token reward. If any of the following sequences have been formed, the relevant Stacks are destroyed, and the current Player gains the appropriate reward. +--------------------+------------------------+ | Sequence of Tokens | Reward | +--------------------+------------------------+ | Bk Bk Bk Bk Bk Bk | +4 Red Tokens | | Re Re Re Re Re Re | +4 Blue Tokens | | Bu Bu Bu Bu Bu Bu | +4 Silver Tokens | | Gr Gr Gr Gr Gr Gr | +1 Gold Token | | Si Si Si Si Si Si | +2 Gold Tokens | | Re Gr Re Gr Re Gr | +2 Silver Tokens | | Gr Bu Gr Bu Gr Bu | +4 Silver Tokens | | Bu Bk Bu Bk Bu Bk | +6 Blue Tokens | +--------------------+------------------------+ And rename the Rule to "Stack 'em High, Sell 'em Cheap", because I always, always type the title with apostrophes when I'm trying to search the Ruleset for it. Tish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] { Time, perhaps, for another Loop. I forget if anyone will get the = reference or not. } 1. We've All Been To Pimlico [Enactment: Section 1.8] A Pimlico Loop has the single Trap Station of Pimlico. Its Sidestep Action is "[Pimlico Sidestep]" and its Terminate Action "[Pimlico Escape]". The former may be performed for free if the Actioning Player is located at a Ghost Station, the latter may only be performed if all Active Players are located at Pimlico. 2. Passports From [Actions] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Pimlico Sidestep] Neut 1.8.x -1 Si [Pimlico Escape] Neut 1.8.x = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 766 - Fosdyke Notation [Multiple] { Comment: apologies for the length of this - it's a fairly simple thing, but needs some concrete examples. } [Enactment: Fosdyke Notation] Fosdyke Notation relates to the proximity between two game objects, in particular between the subject and object of an Action or effect. A = Fosdyke Code describes the relative location of subject and object at a particular point in time; a Fosdyke Requirement specifies the = proximity necessary for a particular Action or effect to occur. Proximity in Fosdyke Notation is described by applying equality = indicators to location classes. Equality indicators consist of either a digit quantifying the degree = of proximity, or an indication that the classes are irreconcilably = different. Thus: variance - an integer describing the variation between class values. A value of zero means the classes are identical; = other values may have specific meanings for specific classes. * difference - the classes are different and cannot be compared further. The location classes defined thus far and the meanings of various equality indicators are as follows: S Station distance between subject and object without = changing=3D line * subject and object have no direct connection R Route distance of the shortest route between subject = and object, regardless of line changes * there is no route between subject and object { Comment: applies to sub-networks in some Turin = '57=3D games, and to Ghosts. } L Line number of line changes required between subject = and object (the lowest number of line changes, not = the number of line changes in the shortest route) * there is no route between subject and object Q Quadrant number of Quadrant boundaries between subject and object { Comment: never higher than two on the LU map } * either subject or object is not in a Quadrant Z Zone number of Zone boundaries between subject and = object=3D * either subject or object is not in a Zone A Fosdyke Code (FC) consists of the set of classes and their = indicators describing the proximity relationship between subject and object. For example: FC Meaning ------------------------------------------------------------- S0L0 subject and object are both at the same Station and on the same Line S3L0 subject and object are three Stations apart on the same Line R4Z1 subject and object are four Stations apart on the shortest route and are in adjacent Zones. Elements may be omitted from a Fosdyke Code which are implied by other elements in the Code (eg S0 implies Z0 and Q0) or which are too troublesome to calculate (eg the subject is at Amersham and the object is at Island Gardens: knowing that the Fosdyke Code is Q2Z5 is sufficient; determining the precise number of line changes and = stations on the shortest route is futile for most purposes). A Fosdyke Requirement (FR) consists of a set of classes and an = expression=3D of the required value for the corresponding indicator in a Fosdyke = Code. This is used to describe the proximity between subject and object for = an Action or effect to occur. For example: FR Meaning ------------------------------------------------------------------ S0L0 subject and object must both be at the same Station and on= the same Line ie both Station and Line elements must be = exactly zero R<6 subject and object must be within six stations of each = other by any route ie the route distance must be less than six Q>1 subject and object must have two Quadrant boundaries = between them (ie in a different, non-adjacent Quadrant) Determining if an event can occur is a matter of comparing the = elements of the Fosdyke Code with the corresponding elements of the Fosdyke = Requirement for that event (a Code indicator of '*' will always fail such a test).= If each element in the Requirement is met by the relevant Fosdyke Code, = then the Action is permitted (at least by the conditions described by this notation). { Comment: that's all I want to do at the moment - define the terms. The next steps are: 1. specifying the Fosdyke Requirements for Actions and effects (not terribly difficult, but a lot of small amendments). There is no = need to do these all in one go, though. 2. manipulating Fosdyke codes - in particular, modifying a code so you can perform an action you wouldn't normally be allowed to eg = placing a Clamp on someone from an adjacent Station. The form of such manipulations would be of the form 'reduce a = single Code indicator by one'. Such manipulations could either be through paying tokens, or by owning some special artifact (such as Spectacles). Note also that these proximity classes are for physical attributes, but there's no reason they couldn't be applied to other properties - = Charge, say, or tokens matching a stack. These seem to be the most immediately useful classes though. } { Biographical Comment: Amos Fosdyke was born in the Yorkshire mining village of Paithwaite (pronounced pow-it, but that's Yorkshire) in 1863. The mine owner (Lord Potheridge) was an enlightened individual and insisted that his = workers' children should attend school until the age of eleven before starting work underground, and so it was with Amos - a significant part of the curriculum consisted of learning how to play Mornington Crescent. Amos did not shine at the Game. In a village where the MC team was noted throughout the West Riding for its aggressiveness, Amos was too cerebral a player, his reactions too considered to be a part of the team. So, when he reached the age of eleven, he went down the mine. The long periods of darkness underground gave him time to think, and think he did - about Mornington Crescent. He visualised the map, developed theories of movement, plans of attack, and strategies to cripple his opponents. No one would ever have known about this, had Amos Fosdyke not taken advantage of the Paithwaite Mining Company Sudden Weight Loss Programme and lost a leg in the doors of the pit head lift in April 1880 (19th century lift doors not being big on safety). While he was convalescing, he had an opportunity to play MC against = Lord Potheridge (a remarkable coincedence indeed that the infirmary was hosting an MC exhibition tournament that month). Rather to the astonishment of the onlookers, Fosdyke won. Very, very quickly. In recognition of this, Amos was given a scholarship to the MC team and a terrifying Crescent competitor was born. After a time captaining the Paithwaite team (incidentally learning to = read=3D in the process), Amos became a noted theorist. His writing on proximity theory were the framework upon which later theorists (including both Grossman and someone called Mrs Trellis) constructed boundary analyses = and=3D quantum token dynamic processes. Without Fosdyke's pioneering work on proximity and the formalism of behavioural permissivity these theorems would have been merely wordy discussions. The notation presented here is both an adaptation and an _homage_. } [Repeal: Goodbye To All That] Repeal Rule 1.17.9 (Free Range). { Comment: Well... we don't need both. Sorry, Paul. } [End of Fosdyke Notation] -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue May 25 14:48:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12642 invoked by uid 7770); 25 May 1999 21:47:53 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 May 1999 21:47:53 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mP39-000Akk-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:47:52 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:45:29 GMT Message-ID: <374f1885.5340276@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 7 - Voting Results for Week 6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 739 Radio Control -- withdrawn -- 740 A Wether Was Once A Ram -- withdrawn -- 741 It was thi-i-is big! -- withdrawn -- 742 Don't Bomb the Embassy! 1 2 4 4 Fails 743 Mindbocklingly... 6 1 - 4 Passes [a] 744 Stribble me Timbers 5 2 - 4 Passes 745 Exchange Commission 2 1 4 4 Fails 746 Blue in the face 6 1 - 4 Passes 747 Stationary Shunts 5 1 1 4 Passes 748 Second Hand Goods 4 1 2 4 Passes 749 Reverse the Polarity... 6 1 - 4 Passes 750 Do You Suppose He Meant... ? 6 1 - 4 Passes 751 Et Pourquoi Pas? 5 1 1 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 739 (Ole) -- withdrawn --=20 740 (Ole) -- withdrawn --=20 741 (Ole) -- withdrawn --=20 742 (J'than) - AGA AGA - PAS AGA - FOR - AGA = PAS 743 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR = =46OR 744 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR = PAS 745 (J'than) - AGA FOR - PAS FOR - AGA - AGA = AGA 746 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - FOR - FOR = =46OR 747 (J'than) - AGA FOR - PAS FOR - FOR - FOR = =46OR 748 (J'than) - FOR FOR - PAS FOR - AGA - FOR = AGA 749 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR - FOR = =46OR 750 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR - FOR = PAS 751 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR - FOR = AGA -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 24 5 0 39 24 16 30 7 1 = 0 Halved: 12 2 19 12 15 3 0 = 0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +18 +16 +11 +0 +0 = +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -11 -1 I 0 -0 -0 = +0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 +3 n +3 +0 +3 = +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 a 0 -0 -0 = +0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 t 0 +0 +0 = +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 i 0 -0 -0 = +0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +5 +0 +5 +0 v 0 +0 +5 = +0 e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +0 +3 +3 +0 +0 = +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 0 +0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +6 +8 +0 +15 +21 +17 +0 +8 = +0 Final: 11 18 10 0 34 33 16 32 3 8 = 0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [a] Jonathan raised a Point of Order that this was a game state rather a direct Action, which has been implemented. Jonathan's other point = that a Bock state should be recorded in the Knip box has been ignored, for reasons which I hope will be apparent after reading the Week 7 = Proposals. [*] Ruttsborough Award - none IMCS Clarity Award - Ole (Minbocklingly): +3 CAMREC Cleanup Award - Kevan (Do You Suppose He Meant...): +3 Mrs Trellis Award - none Lyttleton Trophy - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Graeme Jefferis Wed May 26 04:11:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26074 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 11:11:41 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 11:11:41 -0000 Received: from vesta.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27793 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:20:54 GMT Received: from lamotrek.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@l... [146.227.102.137]) by vesta.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/qaq) with ESMTP id MAA01109 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 12:11:36 +0100 (BST) From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by lamotrek.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id MAA06246 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 May 1999 12:11:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:11:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905261111.MAA06246@l...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: DU/kK9jp7oS2BAO4083flA== Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fine stuff this week. > Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] Quite nice, although Venbacker numbers don't quite seem an appropriate thing to limit moves on. In Crescent history, and indeed in MN, Venbacker numbers are used solely for station identification. In effect, though, all it means is that moves must be played incrementally through the alphabet, which is quite acceptable. I'm not quite sure I like the terminating condition - I can feel games getting stuck. Woodside Park, stuck at the top end of the Northern line, isn't the worlds most accessible station - but then, there's always Wild. I suppose we'd just have to test it, really. > Proposal 754 - Stack In The Mud [Multiple] Better. And you're right, the Stack Table really ought to turn into a generic 'Station Contents' table. > Proposal 755 - Radio Control [Multiple] > Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] > Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] I like all these three. Good stuff. > Proposal 760 - Disruptive Behaviour [Multiple] Hm. Fair enough, I think > Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] This I don't like. I think a fFrobisher fFlourish ought to redistribute tokens perfectly evenly; this implementation is random. > Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] Much better. > Proposal 766 - Fosdyke Notation [Multiple] Although initially rather scary, this seems nice. -Graeme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed May 26 04:24:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 32061 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 11:24:51 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 11:24:51 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 May 1999 12:24:52 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7iglm4$obn9@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:24:52 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <199905261111.MAA06246@l...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] > > This I don't like. I think a fFrobisher fFlourish ought > to redistribute tokens perfectly evenly; this implementation is > random. The Encyclopaedia Morningtonia says that the fFlourish "basically pools everyone's tokens and distributes (flourishes) them back at random", and on reflection this seemed the most reasonable tactic - a simple even distribution would give a grimly guaranteed way of dragging people's Token totals down, and we'd be at a loss as to what to do with leftover Tokens. More tactically interesting, I think, to give a random effect - Players are likely to use the fFlourish as a last-ditch attempt to prevent a victory, or to just generally sabotage the Game. The fact that you could lose all of your Tokens and see your most dangerous nemesis gain every Token in the Game, if luck is against you, is sobering enough to limit its use. On reflection, actually, the Win-sabotage aspect is likely to get a bit irritating, and this might be better off amended so that Gold Tokens are untouched. Hmm. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed May 26 05:12:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23323 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 12:12:36 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 12:12:36 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 May 1999 13:12:36 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7igofk$5sir@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:12:36 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <374d11d7.3629094@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] Very stylish, and actually quite easy to keep track of with Venbacker Numbers being assigned alphabetically. However, if Woodside Park is Damaged or Bulkheaded, it's going to slow the Game up rather tiresomely. I suppose it's no worse than Charge Spiralling, though, really. >Proposal 753 - Whimsy Shortfall [Amendment] Well, these things have to be tried. >Proposal 754 - Stack In The Mud [Multiple] Good stuff. I'm not sure about excess Tokens being destroyed if you've got too many for the Stack you've chosen (simply place your Golds on a Stack of six, when Spooning, and nobody can get them), but I suppose it adds strategy. Full Stacks seem to be a thing of the past, anyway, this is true, and the increasing number of Stack destruction tricks should make this even less of an issue. >Proposal 755 - Radio Control [Multiple] Nicely implemented, particularly the LV modifier. This should be entertaining. >Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] Interesting, although this should probably extend to denying any sort of LV manipulation on the Line in question; the Shunt thing is fairly unexciting, only minimally defensive (the idea being that you Soap the Line you're on, and discourage other Players from Shunting you, yes?) and probably not worth two Blues. But, er, Soap, though? Surely Ice, at least? >Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] Jolly good stuff, thoroughly changing the feel of the board without requiring any particularly annoying rethinking. I have doubts about the de-Sgronking criteria, though - even with all Player's working in unison, it's going to be a very long time before all Stacks can be demolished, isn't it? And it only takes one Player to spill a few Tokens somewhere each Turn (Hoarding, presumably) to keep the Sgronk going. This really needs a [De-Sgronk] Action to become playable, I think. An excellent word, anyway. >Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] Nice, but where on earth did the archaic and rambling "...is a Valid Move and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations..." wording surface from? It really only needs to say "A Player may perform the Action of "[Backtracking]" to permit a Special Move to the Station e ended eir last Turn at." or something. Although now that I word it like that, the Action sounds less useful; you can only replay your previous Move, so it's only of any use if you've been Shunted or otherwise forced elsewhere. Was this intended, or should it be the last-but-one Move? >Proposal 759 - Volume Control [Amendment] > >{ Comment: The ruleset is rather large. This Proposal intends to allow > it to be split into more than one file in a meaningful way. Well, this really depends what Dunx has in mind for file-splitting; as has been said, it's nice to be able to download the whole lot in one go, and search it at whim. Splitting the Ruleset into Nomic Mechanics and Crescent Rules is fine, but anything smaller would probably raise a frown. >Proposal 760 - Disruptive Behaviour [Multiple] Good idea. >Proposal 766 - Fosdyke Notation [Multiple] Cleverly done; the sort of thing that wouldn't look at all out of place between the leatherbound covers of the IMCS rulebook. How does the proposer intend to work this notation into the rest of the ruleset, though? As was mentioned after Paul's "Free Range" Proposal, I think I'd rather see "A Player may Shunt any Player who shares a Station and Line with em" than "A Player may Shunt any Player who has a Fosdyke Code of S0L0 in relation to em" (although S0L0 is a pleasing, if slightly misleading, bit of serendipity), and I've a suspicion that we'll only ever really need to use a few of the notations anyway. >{ Biographical Comment: Bravo. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Graeme Jefferis Wed May 26 06:06:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20239 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 13:06:19 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 13:06:19 -0000 Received: from vesta.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05563 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:15:32 GMT Received: from cuba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@c... [146.227.102.128]) by vesta.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/qaq) with ESMTP id OAA14831 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:06:14 +0100 (BST) From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by cuba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id OAA30169 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:06:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:06:13 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905261306.OAA30169@c...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: 9LJNNMA29I96HTqrKa4ljA== Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But, er, Soap, though? Surely Ice, at least? I *like* Soap. I can imagine 'soaping the tracks' at ex-York quite happily. -Graeme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Graeme Jefferis Wed May 26 07:26:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8524 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 14:24:19 -0000 Received: from macondo.dmu.ac.uk (146.227.1.4) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 14:24:19 -0000 Received: from vesta.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (root@v... [146.227.102.3]) by macondo.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12264 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:33:31 GMT Received: from cuba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (se98gj@c... [146.227.102.128]) by vesta.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/qaq) with ESMTP id PAA25478 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 15:24:12 +0100 (BST) From: Graeme Jefferis Received: (from se98gj@localhost) by cuba.cs.cse.dmu.ac.uk (8.8.8/C1.5) id PAA00278 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 May 1999 15:24:11 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:24:11 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905261424.PAA00278@c...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-MD5: GHLKcFI0SrfV8yqoOERGHQ== Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] > > > > This I don't like. I think a fFrobisher fFlourish ought > > to redistribute tokens perfectly evenly; this implementation is > > random. > > The Encyclopaedia Morningtonia says that the fFlourish "basically > pools everyone's tokens and distributes (flourishes) them back at > random", and on reflection this seemed the most reasonable tactic > - a simple even distribution would give a grimly guaranteed way of > dragging people's Token totals down, and we'd be at a loss as to > what to do with leftover Tokens. Ah, I see. My image was of the pooled tokens being 'shuffled and dealt' to all players, which is more even but, as you say, less interesting tactically. A nice compromise might have each player gaining all of another player's tokens, IYSWIM. That's a bit more tricky to implement, but probably easier to actually 'do' when it comes around to performing the action (as that's the part that really scares me.) > On reflection, actually, the Win-sabotage aspect is likely to get > a bit irritating, and this might be better off amended so that Gold > Tokens are untouched. Hmm. Sounds a bit contrary. No, don't do that to it... -Graeme. (re: the Soap thing -- nary a day or three ago, I skidded on a big puddle of *soup* in Dan's Long Game. It can't be a coincidence, can it?... ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 09:51:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16022 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 16:51:55 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 16:51:55 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28733 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:51:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22564 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:51:52 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id RAA03901; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:51:51 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199905261651.RAA03901@u...> Date: 26 May 99 17:49:27 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-460-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 25-May-99 22:45 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Proposals for Week 7 included many excellent things, amongst them: > Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] Can we go down the ladder as well as up? There probably ought to be something in the GSD to record the ladder state, too. > Proposal 755 - Radio Control [Multiple] Yes, very pleasing - the combination of radio control and velocity bombs would be particularly vicious, and to be applauded. > Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] Can we have a flood on the line to wash the soap away? This might also short out the power for a couple of rounds (Power Failure with a longer duration). > Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] Splendid, splendid stuff. As Kevan points out, perhaps a little difficult to remove, but adds an extra tactical element to token stack creation. > Proposal 759 - Volume Control [Amendment] To respond to Kevan's remarks - my intent was to split the Ruleset into three. Whilst the Special Rulesets obviously depend on the Vanilla Rules, they're still pretty much independent. > Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] This made me laugh. Hilarious. > Proposal 762 - To The Bottle Bank [Multiple] Fair enough - a reasonable simplification, I think. > Proposal 763 - Quail, Mortal [Action] Very, very nice - we could probably do with more minor defensive Actions like this. > Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] I like that a lot. > Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] How about a loop using red and blue tokens and going from Hill to Hill and named for the Lavendar Hill Mob? > Proposal 766 - Fosdyke Notation [Multiple] Responding to Kevan's comments: - Cleverly done; the sort of thing that wouldn't look at all out of place - between the leatherbound covers of the IMCS rulebook. How does the - proposer intend to work this notation into the rest of the ruleset, - though? Originally I was thinking that Fosdyke Requirements would replace English descriptions, but I think they might be better as a clear and unambiguous supplement - perhaps even in the Action table, although that may be unwise given that it's already quite overloaded. However - a core intention is to simplify writing Rules which manipulate range: much easier to say 'reduces Fosdyke Code by one in a single class' than 'allows influence on adjacent Stations, Lines, Quadrants, or Zones'. - I've a suspicion that we'll only - ever really need to use a few of the notations anyway. FWIW I agree, but I'd rather they were there and unused than missing and needed later. The thing is that once this Notation is defined, it should be pretty unintrusive but will provide a clear and unambiguous definition of circumstances. Anyway - I'll have a go through the ruleset and collect FRs, then publish them as and when. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 14:06:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20575 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 21:00:23 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 21:00:23 -0000 Received: from modem-107.liontamer.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.147.235] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mkmj-00011q-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 May 1999 22:00:22 +0100 Message-ID: <000401bea7bb$16faa300$eb93883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:35:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] > A Player may perform the Action of "[Terminating Ladder]" to end a > Venbacker Ladder, provided that eir piece is situated at the Station > with the highest Venbacker Number in the Game. I see a problem here. I'd like to see a change to this: perhaps allowing it to be performed *for free* if the Station has the highest Venbacker in the game, otherwise it costs tokens... otherwise there is the problem of Blocked or Bulkheaded stations preventing any further progress (especially with the game in Knip and no way of removing the Bulkhead or adding more Damage to put the Bulkhead off the list of disruptions.) >Proposal 754 - Stack in the Mud [Multiple] . > This is particularly true if tokens for a particular Action all have to > go in the same place (as suggested by Jonathan). And I'd like to suggest that it was one of my dumber ideas. Especially with the new Token Stacks in a later Proposal which replace the old bonus Stacks: some Actions require the placing of a lot of tokens of the same colour (which makes the new Stacks far easier to create, even in one turn from nothing - just go round spotting two Fires for a bonus), others require the placing of different coloured tokens (which can in many cases never be made into some of the Stacks that have been proposed here, and thus act just like most current Stacks do.) I was a little too late in submitting a Proposal for this week amending the placing of Tokens to "one Token per Stack per Action", having thought about the issue further (as above.) I do, however, like the removal of the limit on the number of token stacks. >Proposal 755 - Radio Control [Multiple] A workable version of the Proposal. I like this. Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] Soap??? What about ice on the rails? Other than that, nice idea. (Will have to replace "Power Failure" with "Leaves On The Line" :-) >Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] We need an alternative way of De-Sgronking. Other than that, fine. >Proposal 758 - Backtracking Too easy to backtrack - it makes Toffing a player simply not worth the effort unless the player is Knidded as well. >Proposal 760 - Disruptive Behaviour [Multiple] { Comment: We're losing a lot of GSD header space to documenting game states which don't change much. Better to move them into the Disruptions board, I would say. I think that proper Game States (Knip, Gapminding etc) should be kept separate from Disruptions, myself: one line for Game States, another for other Disruptions. (I was just too late, owing to the Freeserve mail problems, with a Proposal of my own which worked in almost the same way as this Proposal - with the above exception, and the fact that I hadn't bothered putting Charge Spirals as a Game State, though in retrospect that seems like a good idea. Also, why need the full text "Gapminding" when "Gap" will do?) Good call, though. I also think Loops should be a State, and have a Proposal under wraps to rewrite the Loop code to bring the concept of different types of loop - Automatic (Dollis Hill) and Invoked (e.g. Amersham/Aldwych, now Ghosts have been defined: a player moving to either of the two Stations does not necessarily *have* to start the Loop there, unlike Dollis Hill.) >Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] Ouch. I must admit I'm not keen on the way this works... too random for my taste. (Yes, I know the fFlourish is a bit of a randomizer, but something that simply gives one random Player half the Golds in the game, two get a quarter each and the rest end up with *nothing* after all that hard work - that doesn't seem fair. Especially with no way to sit out of the fFlourish. Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] Nice idea. But in conjunction with Proposal 754, makes completing Stacks a little too easy (in the case of many Actions which have the playing of a lot of same-colour Tokens) or impossible (otherwise.) I'd vote for this one and against 754. Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] Do we really need another Dollis Hill in the game? One is quite enough (a Station which no Player can land at without starting a Loop, and Pimlico hasn't historically had *that* effect.) Besides, I think there should be a way to *end* loops without being part of them (not just to sidestep them. Now, if there were an Invoked Loop state (so that players can land at Pimlico *without* starting the Loop) I'd vote for it. As it is, I shall have to vote against. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 14:07:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22534 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 21:03:24 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 21:03:24 -0000 Received: from modem-107.liontamer.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.147.235] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mkpd-0003oH-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 May 1999 22:03:22 +0100 Message-ID: <001101bea7bb$824a8f80$eb93883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:05:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] >Can we go down the ladder as well as up? I'm working on it. A Proposal will turn up next week (this one seems certain to pass, so I'm taking a gamble on it.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 15:06:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29024 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 22:06:43 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 22:06:43 -0000 Received: from opus (p425-177.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.195.177]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA22408 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:06:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <016d01bea7c4$08694d60$28d852c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:01:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] Moves alphabetically forward (or rather _not_ backwards). The terminator is a bit hard. I had originally thought of it as a trestle ladder: first up - then down. The idea got too complicated, so I cut the 'down' part. Omissions: ] in the Action table GSD-entry I'll post an update. Proposal 753 - Whimsy Shortfall [Amendment] I like the awards. Proposal 754 - Stack In The Mud [Multiple] This kills the need for one of the sentences in Stribble Me Timbers (744, just adopted). Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] Not a very powerful thing, but I like the picture it created inside my head. Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] Sure, it _is_ hard to get out of, though Stribbling helps. But feel free to invent a [De-Sgronk!]. Sgronk! is, btw, the sound of a train being halted by hitting a Token Stack. Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] The '...is a Valid Move and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass through any Stations...' came from one of the Special Moves. In fact, the Backtracking might be quite a thing if you perform several Special Moves in a row. You can then Backtrack to where you were before the Special Moves. Proposal 759 - Volume Control [Amendment] This is OK, especially if it doesn't prevent having a Full Ruleset file, too. I know that this is not server-friendly, but Xoom might be able to live with it. Proposal 760 - Disruptive Behaviour [Multiple] Fine. We'll probably learn to navigate the new GSD. Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] Quite a dangerous redistributor. Let's try it! Proposal 762 - To The Bottle Bank [Multiple] More efficient environmental tech. :-) Proposal 763 - Quail, Mortal [Action] Grammar question: If a Player performs an Action which targets a Player who performed the "[Cowering]" Action during eir most recent Turn, that Action's cost is increased by one Red Token. Doesn't 'that' point back to the most recent Action mentioned, which is Cowering? Just to be sure some rules lawyer won't fry us. Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] Very nice. A table I can almost remember, already. Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] Sure, why not. Someone (just to preserve the anonymity of the author) has a multi-loop in next week's batch. Proposal 766 - Fosdyke Notation [Multiple] Very nice. Poor Amos, though. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 16:40:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24104 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 23:40:43 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 23:40:42 -0000 Received: from modem-36.lover.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.115.36] helo=franz-liszt) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mnHs-0004dZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:40:41 +0100 Message-ID: <00eb01bea7d1$7ace5aa0$2473883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:42:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] >Moves alphabetically forward (or rather _not_ backwards). >The terminator is a bit hard. > >I had originally thought of it as a trestle ladder: first up - then down. >The idea got too complicated, so I cut the 'down' part. > >Omissions: >] in the Action table >GSD-entry > >I'll post an update. Don't worry, a Proposal to add those (and add a downwards-only version of the Ladder, and a means for reversing from one to the other) has been sent for next week. I like this idea in general. >Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] >The '...is a Valid Move and the Player's Piece is not considered to pass >through any >Stations...' came from one of the Special Moves. In fact, the Backtracking >might be quite a thing if you perform several Special Moves in a row. You >can then Backtrack to where you were before the Special Moves. Which is a problem if the Player is Toffed, unless an amendment is added to this to specifically prevent the use of Backtracking by a Toffed Player: my idea was that the Player had to move back to eir previous location, the hard way if necessary. An automatically-allowed [Backtracking] Action would destroy this feature, allowing as it does a free Special Move to the previous location. Besides, I'm not in favour of a "teleport-to" move allowing an automatic "teleport-back". Far too powerful and easy. Imagine the following situation: Player has a Home Station in an outer Zone which is a Park Station. Player moves to Charing Cross (and cannot be targeted, because the Stations of the Cross are Holy and provide Sanctuary.) Player collects Pigeons. Player performs the [Home] Action and releases the lot. Player performs the [Backtracking] Action to Charing Cross. Repeat ad nauseam. Hardly a decent way to win, is it... simply switching back and forth between two stations until enough golds are found to win the game. And with a Baguette, it would be possible to gain golds at the rate of four every three turns, which is far too much. (Collecting Pigeon twice, nets four pigeons with a baguette, and one turn to Home and release them. I'm going to call this the Homing Pigeon Manoeuvre if it goes through.) Therefore, I don't like this idea and will be voting against it. >Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] >Sure, why not. Because it's just another Dollis Hill, that's why not. We surely only need one of them: what place or precedent is there in the Game for a second Station which automatically causes a Loop by the Player moving there? Such a station would seriously disturb the gravitational balance of the board and have terrifying potential for Liddrup Vortices to develop - which is obviously why both the IMCS and CAMREC are in agreement over this. And this is the sort of problem that we may be just about to approve...?!? Now, if the loop was an *invoked* loop (i.e. a Player could start it if e chose to, but does not have to do so when e moves to the Trap Station) then I might be persuaded. And see below... >Someone (just to preserve the anonymity of the author) has a multi-loop in >next week's batch. So has somebody else, if your somebody is the person I think it is (and, more to the point, isn't the somebody I'm thinking of.) I happen to know that there will be facilities set up for single-station loops, multiple-station loops (with or without a set order for the stations to be played in), loops which happen automatically and loops which can be started deliberately. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 16:52:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1123 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 23:52:21 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 23:52:21 -0000 Received: from modem-36.lover.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.115.36] helo=franz-liszt) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mnTA-00073u-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:52:20 +0100 Message-ID: <00f201bea7d3$1ba09780$2473883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:54:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Votes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] FOR. Proposal 753 - Whimsy Shortfall [Amendment] FOR. Proposal 754 - Stack In The Mud [Multiple] I don't like one of the provisions in this (ironically enough, it was the one I suggested myself) and have commented about it extensively on the group. Sorry, but AGAINST. Proposal 755 - Radio Control [Multiple] FOR. Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] FOR. Proposal 757 - Sgronk! [Action] FOR. Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] AGAINST. Proposal 759 - Volume Control [Amendment] AGAINST. Proposal 760 - Disruptive Behaviour [Multiple] FOR. Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] AGAINST. Proposal 762 - To The Bottle Bank [Multiple] FOR. Proposal 763 - Quail, Mortal [Action] FOR. Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] FOR. Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] AGAINST. Proposal 766 - Fosdyke Notation [Multiple] I can't see how this would have any practical use: it might save ruleset space and still be usable by us veteran Players, but newbies (and yes, there are some) would find it very hard to decipher or remember if this were to replace the existing descriptions in all Rules. And if it does not do that, then there is no need for it as it will be an additional description, thus describing the same thing twice - I don't see the point. And I believe the game should be fairly user-friendly, i.e. describing actions and game concepts in terms that can be easily understood, i.e plain English is better than a code of this kind. (Which is easier for a newcomer to the game to understand - "A player may Shunt a S0L0 Player" or "A Player may Shunt another Player who shares Station and Line with em"?) Thus, sorry but AGAINST. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 16:55:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3599 invoked by uid 7770); 26 May 1999 23:55:18 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 1999 23:55:18 -0000 Received: from modem-36.lover.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.115.36] helo=franz-liszt) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mnW0-0007Wk-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:55:16 +0100 Message-ID: <010c01bea7d3$84d14d80$2473883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:57:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Votes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh bugger... I hit the "Reply to Author" button when sending my votes and forgot that this replies to the group (which is where I got the message sent to me from) rather than Dunx (who actually posted the Proposals to the group...) Sorry guys. Will do better next time. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 19:57:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12541 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 02:57:32 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 02:57:32 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA29668; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:57:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029496; Thu, 27 May 99 12:57:02 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:56:38 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:56:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Votes Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, May 27, 1999 9:58 AM, Jonathan Ellis [SMTP:jonathan@f...] wrote: > ... A good time to use the [Cowering] Action, eh? Don't worry, we've all done it. It's even got a name - "Doing a Snowgod", after a Nomic-player with that name who apparently doesn't check his destination regularly. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 20:47:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6592 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 03:45:06 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 03:45:06 -0000 Received: from opus (p431-9.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.132.137] (may be forged)) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA05807 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 05:45:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201bea7f3$4c2a88a0$89842fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 05:31:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 - Voting Results for Week 6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 742 Don't Bomb the Embassy! 1 2 4 4 Fails Why didn't you want to change the map? I liked the idea (still do, I guess). Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed May 26 22:51:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3039 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 05:51:45 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 05:51:45 -0000 Received: from opus (p423-45.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.173] (may be forged)) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA20316 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 07:51:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000e01bea804$fe030960$ad802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:50:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit :Proposal 756 - Soap on the Tracks [Action] : : :Not a very powerful thing, but I like the picture it created inside my head. : Note, btw, that it is a Post-Move Action. I made a cut&paste error in the Action Table. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 27 04:52:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 22549 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 11:52:26 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 11:52:26 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 May 1999 12:52:27 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ijbls$j5h1@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:52:28 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <016d01bea7c4$08694d60$28d852c3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 763 - Quail, Mortal [Action] > > Grammar question: > > If a Player performs an Action which targets a Player who performed the > "[Cowering]" Action during eir most recent Turn, that Action's cost is > increased by one Red Token. > > Doesn't 'that' point back to the most recent Action mentioned, which is > Cowering? It's ambiguous at worst, I suppose; common sense tells us that it's probably not increasing the cost of an Action which has already been performed, but I confess it's sloppy wording. I'll fix it under Rule 0.2.11 (In Case Of Ambiguity, Break Glass), if Dunx registers concern. > Just to be sure some rules lawyer won't fry us. We'd fry them, I think. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 27 05:02:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 28665 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 12:02:15 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 12:02:15 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 May 1999 13:02:16 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ijc88$6b3b@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:02:16 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <000401bea7bb$16faa300$eb93883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Proposal 761 - All In The Wrist [Multiple] > > Ouch. I must admit I'm not keen on the way this works... too random for > my taste. (Yes, I know the fFlourish is a bit of a randomizer, but > something that simply gives one random Player half the Golds in the > game, two get a quarter each and the rest end up with *nothing* after > all that hard work - that doesn't seem fair. Especially with no way to > sit out of the fFlourish. I'm still in two minds about amending this one to leave Golds intact. I don't know; it's intentionally dangerous, really. That a random Player could end up with all the Golds means that only the most desperate Players are going to bother with a fFlourish when there are a few Golds knocking around. Maybe a case of seeing how things go, maybe one best decided through a fixing Proposal next week, to see how many are in favour. Hmm. > Proposal 764 - Away from Babel [Amendment] > Nice idea. But in conjunction with Proposal 754, makes completing Stacks > a little too easy (in the case of many Actions which have the playing of > a lot of same-colour Tokens) or impossible (otherwise.) I'd vote for > this one and against 754. Mmm, good point, yes; stuff such as Tithing becomes a bit dangerous. Having easily recognisable Stacks is the important step, though, I think; we'll worry about the Token placing next Week. > Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] > > Do we really need another Dollis Hill in the game? One is quite > enough (a Station which no Player can land at without starting a Loop, > and Pimlico hasn't historically had *that* effect.) Well, after all the trouble of making generic Loop rules, it seemed about time to start using them; I thought that this one had enough originality to make it worthwhile. And although historically questionable, the song "Pimlico" by David Devant and his Spirit Wife contains what are probably sufficient Underground references, and even a mention of Tim Brooke-Taylor. And there seem to be an eerie number of Crescent-playing Devant fans about the place, if I remember correctly... (I thought Dunx was one of them, but may have been mistaken.) http://members.tripod.com/spiritwife/lyricsrare.html, anyway. And the new album's quite, quite excellent. > Besides, I think there should be a way to *end* loops without being > part of them (not just to sidestep them. Um, Sidestepping does actually end them. > Now, if there were an Invoked > Loop state (so that players can land at Pimlico *without* starting the > Loop) I'd vote for it. As it is, I shall have to vote against. I'm not sure whether active Loop invocation is worth the candle or not; were Dollis Hill a completely inconsequential Station, it's unlikely that anyone would ever happen to stop there. Adding the "If you stop here, you start a Loop" aspect gives more intriguing strategy than "You can start a Loop from here", I feel. Hmm. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu May 27 06:05:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1850 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 13:05:54 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 13:05:54 -0000 Received: from opus (p115-56.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.197.184]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA07649 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 15:05:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00d701bea841$a3eb4cc0$56c552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:04:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : :> Proposal 765 - I Don't Know About You, But... [Enactment] :> : :> Besides, I think there should be a way to *end* loops without being :> part of them (not just to sidestep them. : :Um, Sidestepping does actually end them. : I can't find any such note in Rule 1.8.6, Kevan. Sidestepping gets you out (for one Turn), but the next player is still sucked in. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Jonathan David Amery Thu May 27 06:12:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6323 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 13:12:26 -0000 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (131.111.8.70) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 13:12:26 -0000 Received: from jda23 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10mzxQ-0003aI-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:12:24 +0100 Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:12:24 +0100 (BST) From: Jonathan David Amery To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Errors-To: amery@b... X-Received: from nowhere for no-one by nobody with nothing; never X-Location: Hermes Organisation: Mathmos Anon. MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Votes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 27 May 1999, Wayper, Paul wrote: > On Thursday, May 27, 1999 9:58 AM, Jonathan Ellis > [SMTP:jonathan@f...] wrote: > > ... > > A good time to use the [Cowering] Action, eh? > > Don't worry, we've all done it. It's even got a name - "Doing a Snowgod", > after a Nomic-player with that name who apparently doesn't check his > destination regularly. > Someone cauterise the list, it's a severe outbreak! Someone send for the Med Student, tell them we've been infected with.... snowgod's disease! -- Jonathan Amery. Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord? ##### I have heard you calling in the night. #######__o I will go Lord, if you lead me. #######'/ I will hold your people in my heart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu May 27 07:54:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 13681 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 14:54:35 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 14:54:35 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 May 1999 15:54:35 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ijmbc$cbht@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:54:36 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <00d701bea841$a3eb4cc0$56c552c3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Um, Sidestepping does actually end them. > > I can't find any such note in Rule 1.8.6, Kevan. > Sidestepping gets you out (for one Turn), but the next player is still > sucked in. Reading the rule a bit more carefully (with only nagging doubt that I wrote the current wording in the first place), this does actually seem to be the case; Turns containing Sidesteps are ignored when checking the Location of the previous Player. I'd not realised that. Tsk. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu May 27 14:02:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1150 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 21:02:34 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 21:02:34 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10n7IO-0006Nq-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:02:32 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:59:58 GMT Message-ID: <374dae30.571997@p...> References: <000401bea7bb$16faa300$eb93883e@f...> In-Reply-To: <000401bea7bb$16faa300$eb93883e@f...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jonathan wrote: >>Proposal 754 - Stack in the Mud [Multiple] >> This is particularly true if tokens for a particular Action all have >to >> go in the same place (as suggested by Jonathan). > > > And I'd like to suggest that it was one of my dumber ideas. No, Jonathan, you were very perceptive. It doesn't make any difference at all - there is nothing in the current = ruleset to *prevent* exactly the kind of behaviour you describe, and this = amendment does not change that situation. What it does prevent is the highly dubious tactic of Tithing without = cost, where a Player Tithes a Zone and spreads the Tokens expended in the Tithe = around. E can then collect all those tokens in the Collection phase. I concede that this amendment might make it a more delicate operation to = collect token bonuses, but is that actually such a bad thing? As for your remarks on Fosdyke (which I shall break protocol by = commenting on, even though they were not intended to go to the list) the intent is that = the =46osdyke Notation should act as a precise and (above all) manipulable description: I honestly don't know what other uses this may have - it is presented more as hook for future ideas than as a complete system in its = own right. Obviously as the Proposer I am rather biassed, but I feel that the = presence of this notation adds another dimension to the ruleset without detriment to = the Game. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu May 27 14:02:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1171 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 21:02:35 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 21:02:35 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10n7IP-0006Nq-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:02:33 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:00:07 GMT Message-ID: <374eb13d.1353014@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Updates to Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following updates to Proposals have been received: These are still for voting on in Week 7. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 752 - Venbacker Ladder [Action] Rule 1.8.x - Venbacker Ladder A Player may perform the Action of "[Venbacker Ladder]" to put such a Ladder into effect. While a Venbacker Ladder is in effect, a Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number lower than the Move played by the previous Actioning Player is Invalid, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Ladder Sidestep]" Action during that Turn. A Player may perform the Action of "[Terminating Ladder]" to end a Venbacker Ladder, provided that eir piece is situated at the Station with the highest Venbacker Number in the Game. While a Venbacker Ladder is in effect, this is indicated in Disruptions by the string "Venbacker Ladder". = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Ladder Sidestep] Pre 1.8.2 -3 Bk [Venbacker Ladder] Pre 1.8.2 -2 Bu [Terminating Ladder] Post 1.8.2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] New Rule 1.7.x - Following the Wet Footprints A Player may perform the Action of "[Backtracking]" to permit a = Special Move to the Station e ended eir last Turn at. If Circle Line is Electrified, no Backtracking is possible. A Player at eir Home Station may not Backtrack. A Player may not Backtrack if e wears a Clamp. When a Player performs a pre-Move Action of "[Backtracking]", eir LV = is set to zero. A Player may not adjust eir LV after performing a "[Backtracking]" Action. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Backtracking] Pre 1.7.x -2 Bk -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Thu May 27 14:12:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8321 invoked by uid 7770); 27 May 1999 21:12:41 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 21:12:41 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10n7SC-0006no-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:12:40 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:10:13 GMT Message-ID: <3751b354.1888297@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought you might be interested in this message which I received from = LT this evening - On Thu, 27 May 1999 17:44:11 +0100, London Transport wrote: >Dear webmaster > >I note that your web site links directly into our scrollable tube map. = This >is going to be removed from our web site shortly as it is significantly = out >of date. You may wish to change your links to forward users to our maps = in >.jpg format.=20 > >URL is http://www.londontransport.co.uk/mhomefrm.html > >Regards > >Webmaster >LT Web Site > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >general email : enquire@l... >travel enquiries : 0171 222 1234 (24 hour service) >travel enquiries : travinfo@l...=20 >address : 55 Broadway, London, SW1H 0BD >website : http://www.londontransport.co.uk >-------------------------------------------------------- Now, as it happens I've got a copy of the GIFs referred to which I will = upload to Xoom.com at some point, but this JPEG map might be a more acceptable alternative than the PDF one suggested before. Ole: to answer your question about our apparent reluctance to change maps= - one reason I voted against Jonathan's Proposal last Week was that the PDF map suggested was not usable by all the Players. I also objected because any change in map requires a change in Current calculations, since Current is defined in terms of physical loction on = the Map. This is an objection I intended to voice on the list, but other more = urgent concerns intervened. =46inally, I don't think that using the latest map is important. It = doesn't matter which map we use - as long as we agree on which map it is. But that's my view. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Thu May 27 22:36:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17958 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 05:36:20 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 05:36:20 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA14365 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 01:41:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:38:58 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Now, as it happens I've got a copy of the GIFs referred to which I will upload >to Xoom.com at some point, but this JPEG map might be a more acceptable >alternative than the PDF one suggested before. They're a little harder to read... Interesting to note that the one that has the Zones marked has the Rail system on it, and the one without the Rail doesn't have the Zones. I'm quite impressed that they e-mailed you about it... I highly doubt you'd ever hear of a gov't office doing such a nice thing 'round here. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 28 03:17:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 348 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 10:17:11 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 10:17:11 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 May 1999 11:17:11 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ilqf7$pqli@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:17:11 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <3751b354.1888297@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I also objected because any change in map requires a change in Current > calculations, since Current is defined in terms of physical loction on the Map. > This is an objection I intended to voice on the list, but other more urgent > concerns intervened. I think Current and Charge are leaning towards the arbitrariness of Venbacker Numbers, in that they're only really referenced from a look-up table. If the new Map is only slightly differently arranged, I think we could probably get away with keeping the current Currents. If you're looking for a Station with a particular Current, you can estimate it simply by glancing, and get a more precise reading by searching the Ruleset or using the Mornomic Companion. Unless anyone's printing out the Maps and using a pair of compasses to determine Valid Moves during a Charge Spiral, or somesuch, I suppose. A particularly pleasing image, but I rather doubt anyone's bothering. Hmm. Maybe it's time to try and write that huge and impressive Mornomic Companion program that does all that sort of thing. In extremely belated response to a point of Paul's that never got an answer, I expect I could manage some sort of Map-mapping program (click on the Stations and it determines their coordinates, allowing Current and Quadrants and whatnot to be calculated fairly easily) if I had a computer; I still haven't gotten around to buying one myself, and Chrissy's has been lacking a monitor for a particularly long time, now. > Finally, I don't think that using the latest map is important. It doesn't matter > which map we use - as long as we agree on which map it is. Well, indeed. I'm quite happy with the one we've got, although the newer ones suggested by London Transport *are* rather nice... Would it impact things terribly if we used the National Rail lines in Vanilla Games, perhaps with a little reworking (a small fare to Move along them, I suppose)? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 28 03:20:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1559 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 10:20:22 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 10:20:22 -0000 Received: from modem-44.cornucopia.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.148.172] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10nJkT-0001H7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:20:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000801bea8f4$0e5b3ea0$ac94883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:22:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >They're a little harder to read... Interesting to note that the one that >has the Zones marked has the Rail system on it, and the one without the >Rail doesn't have the Zones. That was part of the reason behind the search for a decent map for use by the Finsbury Option in particular: I couldn't find a map with the extra lines *and* the Zones, except one which had _all_ the London Underground/British Rail connections fir miles around. Which would clearly have got overly complicated. It's a shame that the pdf format couldn't have been itself converted into something else that everybody could read (I was under the impression that something posted on the net in such a prominent and accessible site as the official London Transport site would be readable by all), as it was the only LU map I have found that has the Zones marked on, also the Finsbury lines (for those playing the Finsbury Option) and no extra British Rail lines otherwise, *and* the newly-open part of the Jubilee Extension... I don't see the point about Current and Charge having to be changed: besides, it looked to me as if the stations were all in the same place (relative to each other) on the Map as they were for the older Map anyway, thus not necessitating any changes in Station Currents. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 28 03:27:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 4781 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 10:27:44 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 10:27:44 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 May 1999 11:27:44 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ilr30$7aab@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:27:44 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <374dae30.571997@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What it does prevent is the highly dubious tactic of Tithing without cost, where > a Player Tithes a Zone and spreads the Tokens expended in the Tithe around. E > can then collect all those tokens in the Collection phase. I thought this was sufficiently fixed by requiring one of the Blues to be paid the following Turn, when Tithing - that it could be sabotaged by preventing that second payment. As I might have commented before, this is notably similar to the "free" spells that have surfaced in recent Magic expansions; those that replenish the resources used to cast them, but only if they're successfully cast. This means that your opponent can scupper you by stopping the spell being cast correctly (meaning that you spend the resources and don't get them back), and also that - although "free" - you can't cast the spell until you've gathered enough resources to cast it in the first place. The same goes for Tithing, really - although an expensive Tithe might get you your Tokens back, you need to have gathered enough in the first place to be able to play it. >[Fosdyke] > Obviously as the Proposer I am rather biassed, but I feel that the presence of > this notation adds another dimension to the ruleset without detriment to the > Game. True, but if it's only adding a very minimal benefit to the Game, such extra dimension is questionable, making the Game more complicated than it needs to be. I think I'll wait to see what impact this has on the rest of the Ruleset before writing it off as a superfluous (but still particularly good) idea, really; it could go either way. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 28 03:40:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9506 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 10:39:58 -0000 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.215) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 10:39:58 -0000 Received: from modem-44.cornucopia.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.148.172] helo=franz-liszt) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10nK3R-0004VJ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:39:57 +0100 Message-ID: <001401bea8f6$cb3630a0$ac94883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] Sorry, but this is still hideously abusable provided that the Circle is not Electrified (which doesn't, let's face it, happen very often.) In the following way: Get a Home Station which is *next to* a Park Station (Queensbury for preference), place a Token on it for Straddling purposes, and switch back and forth as follows: Charing Cross (Collecting Pigeon) - repeat until full of Pigeons. When Passing (to collect Pigeons), collect a Black Token if you have less than 3. Otherwise, Blue (to give a chance of de-electrifying the Circle should someone electrify it.) [Home] Queensbury [Straddling to Canons Park] [Releasing Pigeons] Paying a single Black Token for the Straddle. [Backtracking] Charing Cross (Collecting Pigeon): -2 Black for the Backtracking, which is permitted as the Player is no longer at Home, but all Moves are on the same Line and thus eligible for a single Black Token bonus. Thus, gaining 1 Black Token every Turn, and choosing Black as the token colour received for a Pass, means the Player will never run out of Black Tokens (for the Backtracking or the Straddling) and have an inexhaustible supply of Pigeons and Golds. Thus, as I said, hideously abusable. And if Backtracking is changed to be prevented the turn after a "Home", then a "Wild" to an outer-region Park Station will do instead: if Backtracking is to be permitted only after a Standard Move, it might be worthwhile as an escape route after being Shunted while not allowing the Pigeon abuse as detailed above. But I don't see *anyway* why a teleport move should allow a cheap teleport back afterwards from no matter where. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri May 28 04:02:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18734 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 11:02:16 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 11:02:16 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 May 1999 12:02:16 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7ilt3o$6b2m@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:02:16 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <001401bea8f6$cb3630a0$ac94883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Updates to Week 7 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 758 - Following the Wet Footprints [Action] > > > Sorry, but this is still hideously abusable Tangentially, it still superfluously repeats some of the Special Move definition from Rule 1.5.0... > provided that the Circle is > not Electrified (which doesn't, let's face it, happen very often.) In > the following way: Clever stuff, and reasonably argued. Such tactics are all very obvious, though, and should be *fairly* easy to stop once they become apparent; Bulkheading Charing Cross seeming the obvious solution, but old and generic standbys like Knip or Dollis Hill would probably do the trick. > But I don't see *anyway* why a > teleport move should allow a cheap teleport back afterwards from no > matter where. This is a good point, really - much of the drawback of the teleport Actions is that they're one-way; if you flee Home because Zone 1 is getting hectic, or Wild to the outer reaches to chisel away at a Gold Stack, you suffer the penalty of having to make your own way back afterwards. Similarly, one of the reasons for Shunting people is to kick them a fair distance away, so that they'll have to take a couple of Turns getting back to wherever they were; with Backtracking, a Shuntee can immediately return to where e was - both to finish whatever e was doing, and to extract horrible revenge on the Shunter, who'll still be at that Station. In all, this seems like a nice Action at first glance; a simple and powerful effect that should interact pleasingly with other Rules, but I fear it's going to be a little too unbalancing if it passes. Backtracking on first impressions, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri May 28 09:07:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6052 invoked by uid 7770); 28 May 1999 16:07:05 -0000 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 May 1999 16:07:05 -0000 Received: from modem-19.iodine.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.26.19] helo=franz-liszt) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10nP9x-0002Rd-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 28 May 1999 17:07:01 +0100 Message-ID: <000801bea924$7e73fd00$131a883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:09:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 11:17 Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map >> I also objected because any change in map requires a change in Current >> calculations, since Current is defined in terms of physical loction on the Map. >> This is an objection I intended to voice on the list, but other more urgent >> concerns intervened. > >I think Current and Charge are leaning towards the arbitrariness of Venbacker Numbers, in that they're only really referenced from a look-up table. If the new Map is only slightly differently arranged, I think we could probably get away with keeping the current Currents. If you're looking for a Station with a particular Current, you can estimate it simply by glancing, and get a more precise reading by searching the Ruleset or using the Mornomic Companion. > >Unless anyone's printing out the Maps and using a pair of compasses to determine Valid Moves during a Charge Spiral, or somesuch, I suppose. A particularly pleasing image, but I rather doubt anyone's bothering. > >Hmm. Maybe it's time to try and write that huge and impressive Mornomic Companion program that does all that sort of thing. In extremely belated response to a point of Paul's that never got an answer, I expect I could manage some sort of Map-mapping program (click on the Stations and it determines their coordinates, allowing Current and Quadrants and whatnot to be calculated fairly easily) if I had a computer; I still haven't gotten around to buying one myself, and Chrissy's has been lacking a monitor for a particularly long time, now. > >> Finally, I don't think that using the latest map is important. It doesn't matter >> which map we use - as long as we agree on which map it is. > >Well, indeed. I'm quite happy with the one we've got, although the newer ones suggested by London Transport *are* rather nice... Would it impact things terribly if we used the National Rail lines in Vanilla Games, perhaps with a little reworking (a small fare to Move along them, I suppose)? Well, with so many more stations, the chances of Players ever interacting with each other would be pretty remote... which is why I tend to lean towards using only the North London and Thameslink connections that appear on most maps of the Underground when the rest of British Rail doesn't appear. Hence, the current situation with the Vanilla Rules (CAMREC standard, no national railways at all - in fact, I think the Vanilla Rules should be named "Chalk Farm 84" in honour of the last known ruleset that IMCS and CAMREC could agree upon, and another name found for the ruleset that currently bears that name...) and Finsbury Option (the most successful of the more recent IMCS proposals so far, but not yet accepted by CAMREC, nor is it yet "official", they're still beta-testing it - although it seems only a matter of time, as the Jubilee now nears completion and no serious bugs have been found yet.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat May 29 14:40:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31457 invoked by uid 7770); 29 May 1999 21:40:58 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 May 1999 21:40:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p142-19.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.206.83]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA24131 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:40:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01a801beaa1b$ece4a940$a8c552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:39:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Withdrawal of Prop 758 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hereby withdraw Prop 758. I'll possibly make another prop, but not this week. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun May 30 18:05:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31162 invoked by uid 7770); 31 May 1999 01:05:50 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 May 1999 01:05:50 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA22573; Mon, 31 May 1999 11:05:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma022382; Mon, 31 May 99 11:05:26 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 May 1999 11:04:54 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:04:52 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, May 28, 1999 8:17 PM, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > Hmm. Maybe it's time to try and write that huge and impressive Mornomic > Companion program that does all that sort of thing. In extremely belated > response to a point of Paul's that never got an answer, I expect I could > manage some sort of Map-mapping program (click on the Stations and it > determines their coordinates, allowing Current and Quadrants and whatnot > to be calculated fairly easily) if I had a computer; I still haven't > gotten around to buying one myself, and Chrissy's has been lacking a > monitor for a particularly long time, now. I just had another idea for that. The total requirements are probably large enough that I think we should look at donating some money to Kevan if he can program it (I certainly will). It'd certainly be of use in the future scheme of things, especially seeing that Zones (and Charge, perhaps) seem to be an integral part of current play and foreign maps that don't use them are quite a bit more boring to play. But that may just be my unfamiliarity with the Paris Metro. I think I last proposed the idea to Kevan privately, so it might be a good idea to throw the idea open publicly and see what people can add: * The program's function is to act as a database and calculator for rail maps. You start with a bitmap image (of the rail map in question) and use the program to generate data about the map. * You start by loading the bitmap image, and then clicking on points on the map corresponding to the locus of stations. The program will ask you to enter the name of the station, although it will try to guess if you've already input that station before (by distance). * You can then create a branch (of a line) and then select the stations in order that are on that branch. Branches get linked into lines - lines are essentially trees of branches. Each branch will also remember the interchange stations on it (as an attribute of the station leaf). * By storing information about line colour, the program should then be able to generate a rail map of the map in question at any resolution. * Station location can then be used to generate lists of charges. * By specifying an 'origin' station Quadrants can be generated. * Zones can be created by specifying their perimeter polygon. This can then be used to generate a list of stations in a Zone, and can also be used to add zone colour overlay information in a map. * By specifying a grid of horizontal and vertical lines, the station list can then include a simple lookup (e.g. "Parsons Green : E3"). * All the information entered can be saved and loaded in a simple file format. What's a good rate, Kevan? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Mon May 31 03:32:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 30167 invoked by uid 7770); 31 May 1999 10:32:33 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 May 1999 10:32:33 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 May 1999 11:32:33 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7itog2$cqd3@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:32:34 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I just had another idea for that. The total requirements are probably large > enough that I think we should look at donating some money to Kevan if he can > program it (I certainly will). Tish and tosh. Money is the least of my incentives; I already get more than I know what to do with from my proper employers (for the curious, a Millennium Bug tester that I partly wrote for them is downloadable from my Web page). Knowing that I'm doing something that's appreciated, and that I'm going to enjoy writing, are the only issues, really. I'm hesitantly looking to buy some sort of home computer at the moment; when I've gotten hold of one (and if any UK people could recommend a good place to buy a reasonably unimpressive computer, I'd welcome it), I'll take a look at the thing in greater depth and see how much of it's feasible. I imagine it shouldn't be that awful to get working, and only slightly less awful to polish up to an impressive standard. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 31 10:02:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12617 invoked by uid 7770); 31 May 1999 17:02:31 -0000 Received: from judy.ic.ac.uk (155.198.5.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 May 1999 17:02:31 -0000 Received: from juliet.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.5.4]) by judy.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10oVSH-0007Z9-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 31 May 1999 17:02:29 +0000 Received: from madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.2]) by juliet.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10oVSG-0003WD-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 31 May 1999 17:02:28 +0000 Received: from poincare.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.120] helo=poincare) by madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 10oVSG-0005VK-00; Mon, 31 May 1999 18:02:28 +0100 From: "Snow" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:02:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <7itog2$cqd3@eGroups.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PaulWay wrote: > The program's function is to act as a database and calculator for > rail maps. You start with a bitmap image (of the rail map in > question) and use the program to generate data about the map. Since the images from LU PDF files are vector graphics (you can see it build up on anything but the fastest of computers) it should be possible to rip the data straight out without waving mice about. Unfortunately not. I did a bit of research the other day and discovered that Adobe only distributes its PDF library for applications that are "in alignment with Adobe's strategic directions". I don't think that extracting LU data from PDF maps counts. I did manage to extract the station names and their locations using a tool I found on the net, but not the locations of the stations (I got the locations of the names, not the locations of the stations). Anyway, even if one could rip the station locations one would still need to connect them with the station names. So the bitmap option would seem to be better. > I'm hesitantly looking to buy some sort of home computer at the moment; > when I've gotten hold of one (and if any UK people could recommend a goo= d > place to buy a reasonably unimpressive computer, I'd welcome it), I'll > take a look at the thing in greater depth and see how much of it's > feasible. I imagine it shouldn't be that awful to get working, and only > slightly less awful to polish up to an impressive standard. How unimpressive? Secondhand in MicroMart you should be able to get a 486 for =A350 or a slow Pentium for =A3100. Even a new PII can be found for less than =A35-600 if your definition of "unimpressive" is significantly more impressive than mine. Snow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 31 18:32:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23805 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 00:13:04 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 00:13:04 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA09571; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:13:00 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa09357; Tue, 1 Jun 99 10:12:39 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:12:09 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:12:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: (fwd) London Underground Map Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, June 01, 1999 3:02 AM, Snow [SMTP:snow@s...] wrote: > Anyway, even if one could rip the station locations one would still > need to connect them with the station names. > So the bitmap option would seem to be better. Considering that just about every other map of every other railway system in the world seems to currently be in bitmap format, I think this should be the main focus of our work. Dunx laboriously copied and pasted coordinates for the 295 stations from the standard map into a database, and then laboriously joined them up into lines. He has them in an SQLish database somewhere. That's the sort of labour of love one goes through once only. Should I create a separate list for this discussion? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon May 31 19:13:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18772 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 02:13:50 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 02:13:50 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA12441; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:13:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012290; Tue, 1 Jun 99 12:13:28 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:12:59 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:12:57 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, I've been wondering if we may be Barking up the wrong Becontree with the idea of limiting things like Bocks. The way my mind is wandering is that it might be a better idea to increase the number of tokens people get each turn (both via a more liberal system of bonuses for moving and more gains in Actions). The counter side is that Actions take longer, are more exclusive (i.e. you can only perform a certain number or combination each turn) and take more tokens to perform. The reason I think this way is that at the moment it's very common to have your options limited by having no useful tokens at all. Not only are you limited in what you can do to other players, but you're also limited by what you can defend against. Thus, people who can gain a few extra tokens are immediately at a reasonably large advantage. I'm wondering if that could be combatted by increasing the general flow of tokens. If shunts cost three reds, but you pick up three reds from a pass, then you're not really changing too much. However, if you get two reds and two blacks for passing through three interchanges, then you're much closer to playing that shunt (or defence). But if you can only shunt and do one other thing that turn, then we won't suddenly see mammoth Turns from everyone. That's the general idea - comments? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jun 1 02:44:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9664 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 09:44:10 -0000 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 09:44:10 -0000 Received: from modem-67.tellurium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.25.195] helo=franz-liszt) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ol5b-0000E7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:44:08 +0100 Message-ID: <001401beac13$c170bde0$c319883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:47:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay wrote: >I've been wondering if we may be Barking up the wrong Becontree with the >idea of limiting things like Bocks. The way my mind is wandering is that it >might be a better idea to increase the number of tokens people get each turn >(both via a more liberal system of bonuses for moving and more gains in >Actions). The counter side is that Actions take longer, are more exclusive >(i.e. you can only perform a certain number or combination each turn) and >take more tokens to perform. See my comments below. Also, I think that the bonuses for moving *to* Interchanges should be doubled, but not the bonuses for moving *through* Interchanges (which would otherwise make high LVs, already desirable, overpowered.) It makes sense to me that putting oneself at risk (more Lines passing through the Station is more directions to be Targetted from) should earn a greater reward. Three tokens per Turn as a possible gain from moving seems okay to me, and I wouldn't particularly like to see more than that, but I agree the current potential of two is maybe on the low side (though not too much so: see below.) >The reason I think this way is that at the moment it's very common to have >your options limited by having no useful tokens at all. Not only are you >limited in what you can do to other players, but you're also limited by what >you can defend against. Thus, people who can gain a few extra tokens are >immediately at a reasonably large advantage. Hence my comments about, and use of, some sadly neglected features of this game: the Token Stack completion, and Manoeuvres. (The current Black-Silver-Black stack at least was used to great effect in one case, in Game 7, getting three reds and five blues: seeing as so many actions cost reds or blues, this proved to be a great advantage for yours truly - and one which, for some reason, no other player of the time also tried to exploit despite being given the example. It has the bonus of being hard to play because of the need for a Silver Token, so isn't going to be completed every day of the week.) People are playing the Actions occasionally, but *not* thinking about where they place their Tokens afterwards. I don't think that the placement should always be "intuitive", to use the phrase that Kevan (I think) used: one should have to remember some difficult things, such as one or two non-obvious token stacks (only need to remember one or two of the non-intuitive ones, they could then become a feature of that particular player's playing style.) I'd rather see the new stacks of this week's Proposals *added* to the list of possible bonus Stacks, not used to replace it. I get the impression, having actually done something with the rules as they currently stand, that some people have decided already "oh, it's broken, it gets a lot of tokens quickly", rather than "how can I use that to my own best advantage myself?" There are too many Actions which cost a lot of tokens, and not enough ways of getting a lot of tokens IMHO: and the two most under-used features of the game both include ways of getting a lot of tokens... RiffRaff performed the Morden Paradox gambit and has got a load of black tokens, but is doing nothing with them - not even making a Gold from a Bonanza, which surprises me as I believed Riff was actually thinking about strategy for a while. (Of course, e could be collecting Blacks for a PoID...). As mentioned before, Blues in particular are far too hard to come by considering the number of actions which require multiple blues. There are already plenty of ways of getting Golds, it's the multiple Plastic Tokens bit which needs attention IMHO. Meanwhile, in the Long Game, we have people Passing for turn after turn, collecting Pigeons to release at no cost (thus gaining loads of Gold while mainly remaining at the same Station, or - worse still - going round in circles to come back to the same Station, something I believe should be forbidden): and worse still, doing so at a Station where they cannot be targeted and driven out from (i.e. Charing Cross.) I've tried a Dollis Hill Loop, but Dunx kept on breaking it: I agree that DH loops should be breakable, the problem is with the Pigeon and not the Loop IMHO. Already this is a hideously abusable feature - this is being proved, and would be even worse had anyone actually chosen an outer-region Park station as a Home, to return to carrying all four Pigeons with no loss... why should the game reward players who sit in one place for so long? Meanwhile, there is a complete Stack of Golds at Stonebridge Park and *nobody* has yet made a move towards it because Pigeons are such an easy source of golds... I'd like to see something of a reworking of Manoeuvres and Gambits, such that each one must include at least one move of over 10 stations (thus, may only be completed if some non-linear move is involved, for instance a Special Move or Straddle, or the Player has managed to get Supercharged.) This could work better if a Special Move did not reduce LV to 0. (Suggestion: reduces LV by the number of Zone and Quadrant boundaries crossed.) Again, not necessarily the "intuitive" ones: one ought to have to remember a few and use them, again allowing for individual playing styles to come through and rewarding the one who could remember the greatest number of them (and thus have the most options.) It seems at the moment that the game is in danger of being taken over by the Nomic aspect: so many players are taking so bloody long to move that one is in danger of forgetting what MC is about, and I suspect the reason for people not moving is that the actual MC part of the game is no longer interesting on account of being frustrating as PaulWay describes above - because nobody can do anything worthwhile (partly, if I may say, the fault of the Players - one wonders why it is PaulWay that has the most tokens even in MN, just as in real MC :-) and why I've been picking up so many that I've overtaken a number of the Players in the game despite joining in the Long Game comparatively later and spending s everal weeks inactive...) and the fact that (as I point out) it is too easy to gain the necessary Golds with a lot of staying in one place, especially with Pigeons. At least the (otherwise broken) Token Running way of getting golds encouraged players to actually move about the board as the same terminus could not be used more than once... >I'm wondering if that could be combatted by increasing the general flow of >tokens. If shunts cost three reds, but you pick up three reds from a pass, >then you're not really changing too much. However, if you get two reds and >two blacks for passing through three interchanges, then you're much closer >to playing that shunt (or defence). But if you can only shunt and do one >other thing that turn, then we won't suddenly see mammoth Turns from >everyone. My suggestions: (1) A simple limit of only one Pre-Move, only one Post-Move Action per Turn. Neutral Actions may be played as either: Token Exchange actions do not count towards this limit, nor do Special Move Actions. (2) The current 1-hour turn limit to be removed instead: no longer needed if there is a limit on the number of Actions. Game Time will still matter in respect to Peak Hours, Station closures (hence, paying Blues to advance Game Time so that one can move along a particular portion of Line would still be valid.) (3) Actions targetting Players to be extended to any Player who shares a Station, not just same-Line players, to allow multiple targetting with a single Action against Players who are at the same Station but different Lines. (A way of breaking up a mass congregation of people Passing at Charing Cross collecting Pigeons.) Gapminding to prevent targetting of Players on different Lines from the Player. (4) Holy Stations to provide Sanctuary only to players who have contributed to the Collection Plate on their previous Turn. (Well, if you don't contribute towards the Church, why should it help you? The custom of Sanctuary in real life assumed everyone was a churchgoer who prayed, listened to Mass and paid their tithes...) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue Jun 1 03:06:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 21594 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 10:06:03 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 10:06:03 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 1999 11:06:04 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j0bac$c44v@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:06:04 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm wondering if that could be combatted by increasing the general flow >of tokens. If shunts cost three reds, but you pick up three reds from a >pass, then you're not really changing too much. However, if you get two >reds and two blacks for passing through three interchanges, then you're >much closer to playing that shunt (or defence). This seems to be spreading things a little too thin; the thing about getting Tokens from Interchanges is that you can aim to get the ones you need (taking a slightly odd route to a Station so that you can claim a Red and Shunt someone when you get there). Bubbling it down to (effectively) two-thirds of a Red and two-thirds of a Black would make this rather less focused, slow the Game down and cause the build-up of Tokens you might not particularly want. I think the current Token levels are fairly reasonable; not large enough to merit frightening maths, small enough to give a fairly good idea of what options Players have open to them (if Dead-End Shunting cost seven Reds, a Suspect Package cost eight and a Detonation six, it'd become rather unwieldy to keep tabs on such things). The current costs also seem about right in terms of Token Stacking - if we suddenly trebled all the Action costs, we'd have thrice as many Token Stacks springing up, and would have to allow triple-Claimings to balance it. Perhaps not too bad, but getting handfuls of random loose change (1/3 of an effective Red, 1/3 of a Blue, 1/3 of a Green) is less than appealing. I'd say that the issue is ultimately the speed at which you can gather Tokens; as things stand, you're likely to get one Plastic Token you want per Turn by Moving in the correct manner, and maybe two if you're lucky. This means you can afford to Block or Shunt once per Turn, can Bulkhead every fourth (or second if you're skilful) Turn, can Bonanza for a Gold every ten (or, again, five if you're deft enough), and so forth. This seems about right. The critical issues are, in my opinion, overly cheap Actions (a second-turn Freem or Bock seems quite powerful) and overly generous Token-gain methods (maybe some of the Manoeuvres?). Mornomic equivalents of Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus, I suppose, to the Magic players amongst you. >But if you can only >shunt and do one other thing that turn, then we won't suddenly see >mammoth Turns from everyone. I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing; the Complicated Move is quite a classic aspect of Crescent, and I'm always very impressed when someone pulls off an overly complex series of Actions, even if they're all absolutely horrible and directed solely against me. So long as such Turns are at least partially predictable ("Hmm, Dunx has got twenty Reds, and enough Blues to extend eir Turn quite a lot; he's probably going to go on a mad offensive soon"), which I think they generally are, I've nothing against them. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue Jun 1 04:06:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 20966 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 11:06:28 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 11:06:28 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 1999 12:06:28 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j0erk$arth@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:06:28 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <001401beac13$c170bde0$c319883e@f...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think that the bonuses for moving >*to* Interchanges should be doubled, but not the bonuses for moving >*through* Interchanges (which would otherwise make high LVs, already >desirable, overpowered.) It makes sense to me that putting oneself at >risk (more Lines passing through the Station is more directions to be >Targetted from) should earn a greater reward. True enough, yes; it makes sense that destination should earn more reward than route. A total of three Tokens seems a shade too many, though - perhaps normal rewards for the destination, and a slightly reduced bonus for passing Interchanges (nothing for two, a Red for three, a Black for four, a Blue for five-plus?). >I don't think that the placement should always be >"intuitive", to use the phrase that Kevan (I think) used: one should >have to remember some difficult things, such as one or two non-obvious >token stacks (only need to remember one or two of the non-intuitive >ones, they could then become a feature of that particular player's >playing style.) It depends how much of a bonus this gives, really; if being able to remember Token patterns gives you a small edge, it's forgivable, but throwing out large rewards for Players with the best memories (or those who notice by chance) seems too unbalancing, to me. Skill should be more of a criteria than bland recollection or luck. >I get the impression, having actually done something with the rules >as they currently stand, that some people have decided already "oh, it's >broken, it gets a lot of tokens quickly", rather than "how can I use >that to my own best advantage myself?" Isn't that what we should be doing, though? If a free "gain ten Golds" Action somehow fell into the ruleset, shouldn't we consider and repair it, rather than thinking "Hmm, how can I use this to Win?" >As mentioned >before, Blues in particular are far too hard to come by considering the >number of actions which require multiple blues. I think such Actions would be too cheap if Blues suddenly became as commonplace as Reds or Blacks, though; the difficulty in obtaining Blues is reflected in the costs of the Actions, I feel. >Meanwhile, in the Long Game, we have people Passing for turn after >turn, collecting Pigeons to release at no cost The mere cost of getting to a distant Park Station. >Already this is a hideously abusable feature - this is being proved, Well, it'll be proved as soon as anyone actually gets a Pigeon into a Park. Nobody's ever managed it yet, so it can't be *that* hideously abusable. >and would be even worse had anyone actually chosen an >outer-region Park station as a Home, to return to carrying all four >Pigeons with no loss... Such would be rather an obvious strategy, though - I'm sure other Players would lurk around that Player's Home, either to Block it and deny their going Home, or to mug them for their Gold when they try to leave. (Besides, any game plan that can be referred to as "The Homing Pigeon Strategy" is no bad thing.) >Meanwhile, there is a complete Stack of Golds at >Stonebridge Park and *nobody* has yet made a move towards it The Stack's only been there for a Round, and the Jubilee's just been Power-Failed, so it's not *vastly* surprising that nobody's started heading for it... >because Pigeons are such an easy source of golds... Rot. Nobody's ever gotten a Gold from a Pigeon in the history of the Game; it can't be that easy. > I'd like to see something of a reworking of Manoeuvres and Gambits, >such that each one must include at least one move of over 10 stations >(thus, may only be completed if some non-linear move is involved, for >instance a Special Move or Straddle, or the Player has managed to get >Supercharged.) Good and bad; good in that it makes the performing of a Manoeuvre a little more apparent, bad in that it's a bit too arbitrary and destroys concise little Manoeuvres like the Morden Paradox. >Again, not necessarily the "intuitive" ones: one >ought to have to remember a few and use them, again allowing for >individual playing styles to come through and rewarding the one who >could remember the greatest number of them (and thus have the most >options.) I disagree strongly with this; individual playing style should come from the way resources and options are used and responded to, rather than simply being able to remember more of them than your opponents. > It seems at the moment that the game is in danger of being taken >over by the Nomic aspect: so many players are taking so bloody long to >move that one is in danger of forgetting what MC is about, and I suspect >the reason for people not moving is that the actual MC part of the game >is no longer interesting on account of being frustrating Well, if I were bored with the game itself, I'd resign from it and concentrate on the rulemaking. I'm guilty of forgetting it's my Turn, sometimes, but that's about it. >and the fact that (as I point out) it is too >easy to gain the necessary Golds with a lot of staying in one place, >especially with Pigeons. Is it really that easy? The only other way I can think of is slowly mining a Gold Stack, but such a tactic is liable to see other Players turning up to either help or hinder you. >My suggestions: > (1) A simple limit of only one Pre-Move, only one Post-Move Action >per Turn. Neutral Actions may be played as either: Token Exchange >actions do not count towards this limit, nor do Special Move Actions. Interesting, and this might make a good variant (Baker Street?). I think it'd just be too much of a strangler on the Vanilla ruleset, though; as commented, the complicated Moves tend to be the most impressive. Additionally, Actions such as Blocks are fairly staple elements of play, usually secondary to greater machinations; if I have to choose between Blocking to keep Dunx at bay, and doing something clever to help me Win, I fear I'd often have no choice but to turn to the former each Turn. Incidentally, wouldn't this just compound your cited "problem" of people gathering Tokens and not spending them? > (3) Actions targetting Players to be extended to any Player who >shares a Station, not just same-Line players, to allow multiple >targetting with a single Action against Players who are at the same >Station but different Lines. (A way of breaking up a mass congregation >of people Passing at Charing Cross collecting Pigeons.) Gapminding to >prevent targetting of Players on different Lines from the Player. Didn't this used to be the case in the old days? I'm sure the Shunting Rule originally gave an example of Shunting several Players at once... > (4) Holy Stations to provide Sanctuary only to players who have >contributed to the Collection Plate on their previous Turn. Rather expensive; perhaps a "[Sanctuary]" Action for a Blue, instead? I don't know; it is rather annoying that Holy Stations can be so powerful, but it's nice to have the hiding place available, and it doesn't stop opponents waiting outside for you, with a big stick. Pigeon-friendly, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jun 1 10:06:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22720 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 17:05:59 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 17:05:59 -0000 Received: from opus (p457-108.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.135.108]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA08777 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:05:58 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00b801beac50$ee1d2080$6c872fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:43:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about getting Tokens for: 1) the number of Lines at the Start Station, if it is an Interchange, 2) the number of Interchanges moved through, and 3) the number of Lines at the End Station, if it is an Interchange. This way, we can keep the Token Collection Table symmetric. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Jun 1 16:09:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1271 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 23:09:12 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 23:09:12 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10oxei-0002KW-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:09:12 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:06:40 GMT Message-ID: <375a63ea.8310036@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 8 Ruleset Updates Postponed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's midnight and I have to get up at six. The Ruleset updates will = happen later. Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Jun 1 16:09:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1419 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 23:09:25 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 23:09:25 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10oxel-0002KW-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:09:15 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:06:44 GMT Message-ID: <375b6427.8370798@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Eight -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 767 - Not at All Good for the Environment [Action] New Rule 1.7.x - Not at All Good for the Environment A Player may perform a Pre-Move Action of "[Taxiplane to ]", where is defined as an Airport Interchange, provided e is at an Airport Interchange. When a Player performs the Action "[Taxiplane to ]", eir LV = is set to zero, and a Special Move to is allowed. { Speaker's Comment: what goes round comes round - the Proposer may be interested, and perhaps even amused, to peruse Proposal 017 from Year = 1, Week 2. } New Rule 1.7.x - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur A Player may perform a Pre-Move Action of "[Bransoning]", provided e = is at an Airport Interchange. When a Player performs the Action "[Bransoning]", eir LV is set to zero, e must roll a 295-sided die, look up the rolled number in the Venbacker Table, and Move to the Station indicated by the roll. This Special Move is always allowed. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Taxiplane to ] Pre 1.7.x -4 Gr -1 Bk [Bransoning] Pre 1.7.x -2 Go -4 Gr -1 Bk {Comment: This obviously works best if there are two Airport Interchanges. We have both Heathrows on LU, and London Airport in Finsbury. Bransoning could be a way of winning (just roll 164), but it is quite expensive - and should be so. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 768 - Game States rewrite [Multiple] -New Rule: Rule 1.8.0: A Game may be in one or more Game States. These should be listed in a section on the Game State Document: if there is not room to enter a Game State into the relevant area, enough Game States should be deleted from the start of the line to make room for it. {Comment: The main effect of this is because I believe Game States should be considered different from Disruptions. Disruptions generally affect one Station or Line, and that Station or Line needs to be mentioned: Game States affect the whole Game - hence Circle Line states are becoming a Disruption as they affect only one Line.} -Amend Rule 1.2.0, the third paragraph to read: The GSD shall also include the following information, each in an appropriate format: Game Day and Time Wild Stations Game States Disrupted Services Station Contents Courier Calls. - Amend Rule 1.2.2 to remove "Game States" from the list of Disruptions if it has been put there: Game States should now have a box of their own, similar in format to the Disrputions box. - Amend Rule 1.8.2: While a Parks and Greens Cascade is active, this is indicated in the Game States box as "P&G Cascade". - Amend Rule 1.8.3: While the Bridges are Up, this is indicated in the Game States box as "Bridges Up". - Amend Rule 1.8.4: While the game is in Knip, this is indicated in the Game States box as "Knip". - Renumber Rule 1.8.5 into Section 9, and amend it so that its first paragraph reads: The Circle Line may be in any of four states: Normal, Clockwise, Anticlockwise and Electrified. While the Circle Line is in a condition other than Normal, this should be indicated in the Disruptions box: "Circle:-->" for Clockwise, "Circle: <--" for Anticlockwise, and "Circle:***" for Electrified. -Amend Rule 1.8.7: While the Gap is being Minded, this should be indicated in the Game States box as "Gap". -Amend the "Mindbocklingly" rule: While the game is in a state of Bock, this should be indicated in the Game States box as "Bock:" where is the two-letter description of the type of Token involved. - Renumber the Charge Spiral Rule into Section 1.8. Also, add the following, so that its final paragraph reads: While a Charge Spiral is in effect, this is indicated in the Game States box as "Charge In" or "Charge Out" for Inwards or Outwards spirals respectively. - Renumber Rules 1.7.36 and 1.7.37, combining into a single Rule and placing in Section 1.8. - Amend all "Token Cascade" references in the Ruleset text to "Token Shower" {Comment: To differentiate from the Parks and Greens Cascade.} - Add the following text to the renumbered and renamed Token Shower rule: If a Token Shower is in play, this should be noted in the Game States box as "Token Shower:" where is the focal Player. - Rename Section 1.9, both in its normal title and in the index, to "Blocks, Impediments and Disruptions". {Comment: Gaps are now a Game State, and other disruptions have since been added.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] - Remove, if it exists, the bullet point in Rule 4.1.19 which states that "all Tokens for a particular action must be placed on the same Stack." - Add the following bullet point to Rule 1.4.19: * All Tokens spent on any particular Action must be placed on different Stacks. If there are not enough eligible Stacks available, the excess Tokens are destroyed. - Amend the final paragraph of Rule 1.14.3 to read as follows: There may be no more than three Stacks in each Quadrant, and no Token Stack may contain more than six Tokens: if a Token is dropped on a Stack containing six tokens, the bottom Token of that Stack is destroyed to make room for it. If a Station contains another entity which is listed in the Token Stack table (Suspect Packages, Flags, the Podume of Infinite Darkness etc.) then no Tokens may be placed there at all. However, this other item does not count against the number of Stacks that may coexist. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 770 - Loop the Loop [Multiple] - Repeal Rules 1.8.1 and 1.8.6. - New Rule 1.8.1 (Loop the Loop): The Game may be in a "Loop" State, which should be detailed in the Game States section as "Loop:" where is the type of Loop. Only one Loop State may exist at once: if the game is placed into more than one Loop, then the most recent Loop continues, and all other Loops are ended. For each Loop, the following must be defined: * A Loop Type: either "Automatic" or "Invoked". * One or more Trap Stations: moving to one of these may start the Loop automatically (in the case of an Automatic Loop) or if the moving Player plays the [ Loop] Action (in the case of an Invoked Loop). If there is more than one Trap Station, they may be Sequential (the stations must be played in a pre-set order) or Unordered (the Player may move to any of the Trap Stations of that particular Loop, with the provision that e may only stay at the same Station if e plays a move of Pass.) * A [ Loop] Action to begin Invoked Loops, together with the cost and conditions of that Action. * A [ Escape] Action to allow the Player of this Action to end the "Loop" Game State, together with the cost and conditions of that Action. * (Optional) A [ Sidestep] Action to allow the Player of this Action to ignore the Loop while leaving the "Loop" Game State still in force for other Players. Also, the cost and conditions of that Action. * (Optional) Any other special features pertaining to that Loop. When a Game is in a Loop State, the Player whose Turn it is *must* do one of the following things: * Move eir Piece directly to the Trap station (or one of them: the next in sequence, should the loop be Sequential.) This move is considered Special in that no intervening Stations are considered to be passed through: but may not be prevented by any restriction which prevents Special Moves, nor is the Player's LV set to zero except upon moving into the Trap Station from a non-Trap Station. * Play a [ Sidestep] Action. E may then move as normal for eir Turn, but the Loop State remains for future players. If three consecutive players (discounting Passes) play Sidestep Actions, the Loop State is ended. * Play a [ Escape] Action. The Loop State is ended, and e may move eir Piece as normal. * Pass or Timeout: eir Piece is immediately moved to a Loop Trap station (chosen at random by the next Player in the case of a multiple-Trap Loop, ignoring the Sequential/Unordered status), or remains in position if e is already at one. The following types of Loop are recognised: (1) Standard Holding Loop. (Invoked, Single Trap) Trap station: As chosen by the [Looping] Actioning Player. Entry Action: [Loop the Loop] - cost=3D2 Blue. Sidestep Action: [Loop Sidestep] Cost=3D2 Black Escape Action: [Loop Escape] Cost=3D1 Blue if at the Trap Station, 2 Blue otherwise. (2) Dollis Hill Loop (Automatic, Single Trap) Trap Station: Dollis Hill Entry Action: Any move which leaves the moving Player at Dollis Hill at the end of eir Turn. Sidestep Action: none. Escape Action: [Dollis Escape] Cost:1 Silver unless the Actioning Player has an LV of 10 or greater. Special: If Game Time is after 2200 hours, a Player at Dollis Hill may play the [Ongar Denial] Action. This destroys all Knid, Spoon and Narg Clamps in play, removes the game from Knip if it is in Knip, and ends the "Dollis Hill Loop" Game State. Ongar becomes a valid Special Move destination for that Player, and may not be prevented by any means. (3) Amersham-Aldwych Loop (Invoked, Unordered Multiple Trap) Trap Stations: Amersham, Aldwych. Entry Action: [A-A Loop] - cost 1 Red, 1 Blue Tokens Sidestep Action: [A-A Sidestep] - cost 1 Green, 1 Blue Token. Escape Action: [A-A Escape] - cost 1 Green, 1 Blue if performed at Amersham or Aldwych *and* LV is 10 or greater, 2 Green and 2 Blue otherwise. Special: Each Player enters the Loop at either Station, but on any future Looped turns must either move to the other Station or play a Pass. Also, note that Aldwych is a Ghost Station, and may only be entered with the [Ghosting] Special Move Action. If this is not possible, a Player at Amersham must Pass. (4) Morden Paradox (Invoked, Single Trap) Entry Action: [Using the Morden Paradox Gambit]. This starts the loop automatically. Sidestep Action: [Paradox Sidestep], cost 3 Black Escape Action: [Paradox Escape], cost 3 Black if performed at Morden, 6 Black otherwise. - Delete the Pimlico Loop rule if it has passed. - Delete the [Dollis Escape] and [Dollis Sidestep] Actions from the Action Table, and replace with the following: [ Loop] Post-Move, cost varies. [ Sidestep] Pre-Move, cost varies. [ Escape] Pre-Move, cost varies. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 771 - Game into Boris... [Enactment] Rule 1.8.x The Game shall have a State known as "Boris", which it is either In or Out of: at the start of the game it is Out of Boris, which is considered the default. If the game is In Boris, this should be noted in the GSD Game States section as "Boris". A Player may play the [Into Boris] or [Out of Boris] Action on eir Turn, changing the Boris state accordingly. When a Game is in Boris, the following conditions apply: * The bonus in Table 1.4.20 of 1 Black Token for remaining on the same Line does not apply: instead, a bonus of 1 Black Token is given for any Standard Move which does *not* remain on the same Line. * The [Line Change] action has a cost of zero: instead, any move which does not involve this Action incurs a penalty of 1 Black Token. * LV is limited to four less than the usual maximum (i.e. normally 6), and may only be adjusted by up to two points each turn. * No Player may perform any Post-Move Action which changes the location of eir Piece. * No Player may make a move of "Pass". If there exist any conditions which enforce a move of "Pass", the Player must instead make a Special Move (which cannot be prevented by any means) to Dollis Hill instead. Similarly, Timeouted Players are moved automatically to Dollis Hill. A Dollis Hill Loop state is begun in either case. New Actions for the Action Table: [Into Boris] Neutral, 1.8.x, cost 2 Re 2 Bu [Out of Boris] Neutral, 1.8.x, cost 2 Gr 2 Bl. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 772 - Ladders Up and Down. [Multiple] Delete the text of the "Venbacker Ladder" Rule and replace with the following: A Player may perform the Action of [Venbacker Ladder: ] where is either Up or Down, to bring the Game into a State of Venbacker Ladder - this is noted in the Game States section as "Ladder Up" or "Ladder Down". While a Venbacker Ladder is in effect, the following applies: (1) If the ladder is Up at the start of a Player's Turn, then a Standard Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number lower than eir previous location is Invalid. (2) If the ladder is Down at the start of a Player's Turn, then a Standard Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number higher than eir previous location is Invalid. A Player may perform the Action of [Ladder Sidestep] to ignore the Ladder for one Turn: it remains in effect for other Players. A Player may perform the Action of [Ladder Reverse] to reverse the Ladder, from Up to Down or from Down to Up. A Player may perform the Action of [Terminating Ladder] to end a Venbacker Ladder Game State, provided e is situated at a Station with a Venbacker Number below 21 or above 275. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Venbacker Ladder Up/Down] Post 1.8.x -2 Bu [Ladder Sidestep] Pre 1.8.x -3 Bk [Ladder Reverse] Neut 1.8.x -1 Bu -1 Bk [Terminating Ladder] Post 1.8.x -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 773 - Humpty Dumpty Loop [Enactment] Proposal for a new Rule 1.8.x - Humpty Dumpty Loop A Humpty Dumpty Loop has the Trap Stations Kingsbury, Queensway, Prince Regent, Earl's Court, Barons Court, Knightsbridge. The Sidestep Action [Humpty Sidestep] costs 1 Silver to perform and the Escape Action [Dumpty Escape] can only be performed when the Player has an LV equal to eir Charge. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Humpty Sidestep] Pre 1.8.2 -1 Si [Dumpty Escape] Post 1.8.2 -2 Gr =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] Amend Rule 1.4.1 - Token Gesture In the Game of Mornington Crescent, there exist a number of = differently coloured Tokens, which can be carried by Players and piled in Stacks = on Stations. Tokens are created and lost as the Game progresses, and all are listed on the Game State Document. There are eight colours of Token - three Metallic (Gold, Silver and Bronze) and five Plastic (Black, Blue, Green, Red and White). Tokens may be awarded for certain Moves and Actions within the game, and must be expended to perform particular Actions. The Token Cost of any Action shall, where applicable, reflect the nature of the Action and the extent of its effect. The nature of the Action shall be reflected in the colour of Token required and the extent shall be reflected in the number of Tokens required. The type of Actions the different Token Colours should apply to shall be as follows: * Black : Move Actions (those which only affect the position = or movement of the Actioning Player's Piece) * Blue : Indirectly Aggressive Actions (those which may = indirectly affect the movement or status of another Player's = Piece) * Green : Neutral Actions (those which have no immediate = effect on any Piece's position, such as declarations) * Red : Aggressive Actions (those which directly affect the position, status or ability to Move of another = Player) * White : Generous Actions (those which help the game, = possibly even hurting the Actioning Player) * Bronze : 'Purchasing' Actions (those relating to the = acquisition of Gold Tokens and Possessions) * Silver / Gold : Special Actions (ones which should only be allowed = to be used infrequently, thus cost more) New Rule 1.4.x - With or Without Sulfo If a Token is Shunted (or moved by similar means) to Angel, the Token turns White. If a White Token is Shunted (or moved by similar means) to = Blackfriars, the Token turns Black. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 775 - Return of the Son of the Revenge of the Clever Bear = [Amendment] Append the following to Rule 0.9.4 - Fish and Fowl: Who's a Clever Bear? Award A player who feels that e has just performed a particularly clever or = stylish sequence of Actions may perform the Action [Taking a Bow] immediatly afterwards. Similarly, a Player who feels that another Player has just= made such a move may perform the Action [Applauding ]. Clairifying comments may be added in the Comments section of the GSD, if desired, = and the play in question is considered Nominated. At the week's end, the Speaker will consider all moves so Nominated = during the previous week, and award the Who's a Clever Bear? trophy to the = Player whose move e deems to be the cleverest of the lot. (The Speaker may = decline to award the Trophy if the only candidate is self-Nominated, and the = Speaker feels the move in question to be unworthy.) The Speaker may give this Award to emself, provided that e was = Nominated by another Player, and that there are no other Nominations that week. The Player who receives the Award shall gain an additional +3 Kudos. Insert in Action Table = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Taking a Bow] Neut 0.9.4 none [Applauding ] Neut 0.9.4 none {Comments: I always liked the idea of the Clever Bear award - Players _should_ gain recognition for pulling off a particularly clever or cheeky move. However, it was, I imagine, quite a nuisance for the Speaker to = keep track of, hence its banishment. Thus, a clear method for Players to nominate each other (and themselves), giving the Speaker a defined list = of candidates to choose from, instead of having to think back to all the = moves played in all the games in the past week...} { Speaker's Comment: the Proposer is very perceptive. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 776 - Hatcheries [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Hatching from to ] Post 1.8.x -1 Si -z Bu* [Cross-Hatching from to ] Post 1.8.x -1 Go -z Bu* [Un-Hatching from to ] Post 1.8.x -1 Go -z Bu* *) 1 Blue Token per Station in the LIne Segment Rule 1.8.x - Hatcheries A Line Segment may be Hatched by playing the Post-Move Action = "[Hatching from to ]", where & are Stations and is a Line upon which both Stations rest and via which there is a continuous route between the Stations = that requires no changes in direction. The order of Stations in the Action = is not significant. In order to Hatch a Line Segment, the Actioning Player must have Moved via the Line Segment in the same Turn. Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment not = to be considered part of the Line in question for a period of one Round. For the purpose of counting Lines at an Interchange, the Hatched Line Segment is considered absent. A Hatched Line Segment is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix "(Hatch)" appended to the affected Line Segment, the Line Segment = being described by its end Stations and the affected Line Code. eg Angel to Bank (NT) (Hatch) A Hatched Line Segment may be Cross-Hatched by playing the Post-Move Action "[Cross-Hatching from to ]", = where , and are defined as mentioned above, provided the Actioning Player is at a Station in the Line Segment to be Cross-Hatched. Cross-Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment not to be considered part of the Line in question until Un-Hatched. Similar to Hatching, a Cross-Hatched Line Segment is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix "(Cross-Hatch)". eg Angel to Bank (NT) (Cross-Hatch) A Cross-Hatched Line Segment may be Un-Hatched by playing the = Post-Move Action "[Un-Hatching from to ]", where , and are defined as mentioned above, provided the Actioning Player is at a Station in the Line Segment to be Un-Hatched. Un-Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment to= be considered part of the Line in question again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] Rule 1.7.x - Lyttleton Announcement A Player may perform the Neutral Action of "[Lyttleton Announcement]". When a Lyttleton Announcement has been made, all Players lose eir Home Stations.=20 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Lyttleton Announcement] Neut 1.7.x 50 -1 Go -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 778 - Fair Warning [Enactment] As close as possible to thirty-six hours before the votes are due in a = Week, the Speaker will send out an email to all Active Players who have voted = on less than half of the current Proposals. This message will have the = subject line "MN: Reminder to Vote" and notify the Player in question that the = bulk of their votes are still uncast. {Comments: I hate to lumber the Speaker with this, but it'd certainly = help me to remember that I haven't cast all my votes in this Week. And I = think that if we can get everyone to vote things will be a little more even in = the voting scheme. But that's just me.} -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 779 - New, Clear Bomb [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.30, replace the first paragraph with:- Any Player who is fewer than five stations away from a Suspect Package may perform the neutral Action of "[Detonating Package]" to=20 Detonate that Package, where "" is the Station it rests at. { A simply radio-detonator range, sort of thing, rather than making it LV based; such was merely another bonus for Going Very Quickly, and one = that didn't seem to fit terribly well. (Arguably a Doppler effect, but not = if you're speeding away from the Package.) } And replace the last paragraph with:- A Player may perform the Action of [Defusing Package] provided that e = is situated at the same location as a Suspect Package, and that e did not place the Package there emself. Upon performing this Action, that = Package is removed from play and the Actioning Player gains a Silver Token. { Vague tweaking; you should be rewarded for defusing someone else's = Suspect Package, even if you dropped a different one of your own last Turn. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 780 - Muzzling [Amendment] Replace the third paragraph of Rule 1.8.4 (Knip) with:- When a Game is in Knip, no Players may perform Actions which include Token expenditure (with the exception of "[Out of Knip]" and "[Line Change]"). { Knip was forged in the early days when there weren't many Actions of great impact, and when Tokens were scarce; the current Knip effect of sacrificing a Token at the end of each Turn just seems a bit weak (a Bronze or Black per Turn isn't too tricky) and easy to overlook (more often than not we forget about the Token loss when we're in Knip). In these enlightened times, particularly with MC requiring an Action to Open, I suspect that the mere denial of non-free Actions is probably crippling enough. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 781 - A Chip Off The Old Bock [Multiple] { Rewording Bock a bit (there's no need to waffle about checking whether Actions have been performed since other Actions now we've got the Disruptions Box; such is a mere Gapminding hangover), and altering things so that free Actions remain free, and so that Line Changing and Token Exchange Actions aren't touched. Oh, and making the thing reasonably expensive; three Blues instead of a mere one. } Reword Rule 1.8.8 (Mindbocklingly...) to:- Players may perform the Post-Move Action "[ Bock]", the Post-Move Action "[Un-Bock ]" and the Post-Move Action "[Un-Bock]", where is a permissible Token colour. When a Player performs a "[ Bock]" Action, the Game is put into " Bock"; this is detailed in the Disruptions = Box of the GSD. When a Player performs a "[Un-Bock ]" = Action, the relevant Bock is removed from the Disruptions Box. When a Player performs the "[Un-Bock]" Action, all Bocks are removed. For each Bock State that the Game is in, the cost of all Actions is increased by one Token of the Bock colour, unless one of the following conditions is true for that Action:- * The Actioning Player is situated at a Station of the Bock colour, which for the purpose of this rule is defined as a Station with the colour string in its name (e.g. "Goldhawk Road" for Gold Bock). * The Token cost of the Action already includes one or more Tokens, or is a Token Exchange Action, or is free. * The Action is "[Un-Bock ]", "[Un-Bock]" or "[Line Change]". Adjust the cost of "[ Bock]" to "-3 Bu, -1 ". -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 782 - A Poor Second To Belgium [Action] = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Double Helsinki] Neut 1.7.x -6 Bu [Single Helsinki] Neut 1.7.x -3 Bu [Triple Helsinki] Neut 1.7.x -9 Bu = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform a Single, Double or Triple Helsinki to "sink" all of the Game's Token Stacks into the Map. Upon performing a Single Helsinki, the bottom Token of all Token = Stacks is destroyed. A Double Helsinki destroys the bottom two, a Triple the bottom three. A Player may not perform more than one Helsinki Action = per Turn. { Implementation of a classic piece of Crescent terminology, and a reasonable foil to the businesses of "free" Tithing and scattering Tokens for imminent collection, amongst other things. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Proposal 783 - Fighting For Our Wealth [Enactment: Section 2.4] In addition to Tokens received at the start of the Game, each Player receives one Gold Token. { To encourage the attacking of other Players in a Ruttsborough Game, and to possibly swiften the Game up - both fast and furious. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) Tue Jun 1 16:09:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1487 invoked by uid 7770); 1 Jun 1999 23:09:31 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 1999 23:09:31 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=lazarus.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10oxev-0002KW-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:09:25 +0000 From: dunx@l... (Duncan Ellis (Dunx)) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:06:54 GMT Message-ID: <375c644a.8405682@p...> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 8 - Voting Results for Week 7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 752 Venbacker Ladder 6 1 - 4 Passes 753 Whimsy Shortfall 5 1 1 4 Passes 754 Stack In The Mud 5 1 1 4 Passes 755 Radio Control 5 1 1 4 Passes 756 Soap On The Tracks 4 1 2 4 Passes 757 Sgronk! 5 1 1 4 Passes 758 Following the Wet Footprints -- withdrawn -- 759 Volume Control 4 1 2 4 Passes 760 Disruptive Behaviour 5 1 1 4 Passes 761 All In The Wrist 3 1 3 4 Fails 762 To The Bottle Bank 6 1 - 4 Passes 763 Quail, Mortal 5 1 1 4 Passes 764 Away From Babel 4 1 2 4 Passes 765 I Don't Know About You, But... 3 1 3 4 Fails 766 Fosdyke Notation 4 1 2 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- 752 (Ole) - FOR - - FOR FOR - PAS FOR FOR = =46OR 753 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR FOR - AGA FOR FOR = =46OR 754 (Dunx) - PAS - - AGA FOR - FOR FOR FOR = =46OR 755 (Ole) - FOR - - FOR FOR - PAS AGA FOR = =46OR 756 (Ole) - FOR - - FOR AGA - PAS FOR AGA = =46OR 757 (Ole) - FOR - - FOR FOR - PAS FOR FOR = AGA 758 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 759 (Dunx) - PAS - - AGA FOR - FOR FOR FOR = AGA 760 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR FOR - FOR FOR AGA = =46OR 761 (Kevan) - FOR - - AGA PAS - AGA FOR AGA = =46OR 762 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR FOR FOR = =46OR 763 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - AGA FOR FOR = =46OR 764 (Kevan) - FOR - - FOR PAS - FOR FOR AGA = AGA 765 (Kevan) - FOR - - AGA PAS - AGA FOR AGA = =46OR 766 (Dunx) - PAS - - AGA AGA - FOR FOR FOR = =46OR -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow - KUDOS = --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 25 5 0 39 24 16 30 7 1 = 3 Halved: 12 2 19 12 15 3 0 = 1 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- FOR Votes: +23 +0 +0 +0 +21 +20 +0 +0 = +0 AGA Votes: I -7 -0 -0 -0 -9 I -4 -0 -0 = +0 Decisive: n +3 +0 +0 +3 +3 n +3 +3 +3 = +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 a 0 -0 -0 = +0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 t 0 +0 +0 = +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 i 0 -0 -0 = +0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 v 0 +0 +0 = +0 e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +0 +3 +4 +0 +0 = +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 0 +0 +0 = +0 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- This Week: +22 +0 +0 +3 +18 +23 +3 +3 = +3 Final: 11 44 2 0 22 30 16 38 6 3 = 4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff = Snow -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - none CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - Kevan (To the Bottle Bank) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - Ole (Radio Control) For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) Dunx -- Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jun 1 18:08:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7731 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 01:08:39 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 01:08:39 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA18027; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:08:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma017889; Wed, 2 Jun 99 11:08:24 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:07:54 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:07:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some comments on proposals. But first, I'd just like to say that I've printed an A3 station index with all the NL and TL stations and a few ghosts as well. The print includes name, venbacker number, station code, what hats you can get from it and its grid reference (e.g. C5). It sits below my nice neat rail map... Anyway, to save you a bit of work, if your proposal is not listed below, assume I approved in full. On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 9:07 AM, dunx@l... [SMTP:dunx@l...] wrote: > Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] Hmmm. Why undo what went before? And why the misnumbering: > - Remove, if it exists, the bullet point in Rule 4.1.19 which > states that "all Tokens for a particular action must be placed on the > same Stack." > - Add the following bullet point to Rule 1.4.19: Or have we gone higher than I thought with rule numbers? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Jun 2 03:15:37 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5178 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 06:01:19 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 06:01:19 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA26588 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:06:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:04:00 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >How about getting Tokens for: > >1) the number of Lines at the Start Station, if it is an Interchange, >2) the number of Interchanges moved through, and >3) the number of Lines at the End Station, if it is an Interchange. > >This way, we can keep the Token Collection Table symmetric. Or, we could simply revert to the old version of the token collection table, which gave additional tokens for the higher numbers: +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Red | | exactly two lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Black | | exactly three lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Blue | | exactly four lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to an Interchange with | +1 Silver | | five or more lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly two | +1 Red | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly three | +1 Black | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly four | +1 Blue | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly five | +1 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly six | +1 Silver, | | Interchanges during a Move | +1 Black | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly seven | +2 Bl, +2 Re | | Interchanges during a Move | +1 Black | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly eight | +1 Silver, | | Interchanges during a Move | +1 Re, +1 Bu | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Passing through exactly nine | +2 Silver | | Interchanges during a Move | +2 Re, +1 Bu | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ I was never sure why we stopped using it, anyway... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 03:36:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13094 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 07:29:07 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 07:29:07 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA19799; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:29:05 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019711; Wed, 2 Jun 99 17:28:47 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:28:17 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:28:11 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Fosdyke Notation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, I'd love to start putting Fosdyke codes in for Actions, but the logical place for them is in the table of 1.7.2 and there's simply no longer enough room for that to fit in eighty characters AFAICS. The options I can see are: * Make the table a separate Volume in HTML format that is kept as a table on the MorNomic pages. * Squeeze the columns up a little for the extra characters (four would be average). * Put them in the Rule itself. On the whole I'm rather keen on the idea that each Action Rule includes the Action Table entry, as this is a much neater way of specifying what it costs, what it gains, what restrictions are placed on it and so forth. But it's always a little inconvenient to read the table for a rule, then page down to the rule, then have to page up to find out how long it takes or whether it's Neutral, Pre or Post. Maybe a list format like: [Shunting to ] Phase: Postmove Dur: 0:10 Cost: -1Re FR: Player {S0,L0} , Player {L0,S=LV} or: [Blue to Gold] Phase: Neut Dur: None Cost: -2Bu Gain: +1Go FR: Player {S0,L0} Bank or: [Blocking ] Phase: Post Dur: 10 Cost: -1Re FR: Player {S1} Incidentally, {L0,S=LV} may be easier to interpret than L0S=LV (or even S=LVL0). Fix? Enjoy, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 03:56:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30220 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 09:34:39 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 09:34:39 -0000 Received: from opus (p450-47.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.175]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17402 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:34:33 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <015001beacdb$1b7c5160$91802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:33:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [For some reason, Dunx' messages don't get '>' or ':' at the beginning of each line, when I reply. My replies come after ###s for clarity] Proposal 767 - Not at All Good for the Environment [Action] { Speaker's Comment: what goes round comes round - the Proposer may be interested, and perhaps even amused, to peruse Proposal 017 from Year 1, Week 2. } ### Well, things happen. I had thought of helicopters, but changed it. For Bransoning, see the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia. Proposal 768 - Game States rewrite [Multiple] {Comment: The main effect of this is because I believe Game States should be considered different from Disruptions. Disruptions generally affect one Station or Line, and that Station or Line needs to be mentioned: Game States affect the whole Game - hence Circle Line states are becoming a Disruption as they affect only one Line.} ### I don't quite agree. Circle Line Electrified does things to metallic Tokens and Electric possessions. -Amend the "Mindbocklingly" rule: While the game is in a state of Bock, this should be indicated in the Game States box as "Bock:" where is the two-letter description of the type of Token involved. ### Note that there can be several colours of Bock at the same time. Fine prop, elsewise. Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] - Remove, if it exists, the bullet point in Rule 4.1.19 which states that "all Tokens for a particular action must be placed on the same Stack." - Add the following bullet point to Rule 1.4.19: * All Tokens spent on any particular Action must be placed on different Stacks. If there are not enough eligible Stacks available, the excess Tokens are destroyed. ### Nice. - Amend the final paragraph of Rule 1.14.3 to read as follows: There may be no more than three Stacks in each Quadrant, and no Token Stack may contain more than six Tokens: if a Token is dropped on a Stack containing six tokens, the bottom Token of that Stack is destroyed to make room for it. If a Station contains another entity which is listed in the Token Stack table (Suspect Packages, Flags, the Podume of Infinite Darkness etc.) then no Tokens may be placed there at all. However, this other item does not count against the number of Stacks that may coexist. ### Not nice. Proposal 770 - Loop the Loop [Multiple] (2) Dollis Hill Loop (Automatic, Single Trap) Special: If Game Time is after 2200 hours, a Player at Dollis Hill may play the [Ongar Denial] Action. This destroys all Knid, Spoon and Narg Clamps in play, removes the game from Knip if it is in Knip, and ends the "Dollis Hill Loop" Game State. Ongar becomes a valid Special Move destination for that Player, and may not be prevented by any means. (3) Amersham-Aldwych Loop (Invoked, Unordered Multiple Trap) Also, note that Aldwych is a Ghost Station, and may only be entered with the [Ghosting] Special Move Action. If this is not possible, a Player at Amersham must Pass. ### Fine, but Ongar is a Ghost, too. Why treat Ongar and Aldwych differently? Proposal 771 - Game into Boris... [Enactment] * The bonus in Table 1.4.20 of 1 Black Token for remaining on the same Line does not apply: instead, a bonus of 1 Black Token is given for any Standard Move which does *not* remain on the same Line. * The [Line Change] action has a cost of zero: instead, any move which does not involve this Action incurs a penalty of 1 Black Token. ### The simple reversal of the normal state. Proposal 772 - Ladders Up and Down. [Multiple] (1) If the ladder is Up at the start of a Player's Turn, then a Standard Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number lower than eir previous location is Invalid. ### Lessening the burden. You don't have to climb up from the previous Player's position, but only from your own. A Player may perform the Action of [Ladder Reverse] to reverse the Ladder, from Up to Down or from Down to Up. ### Nice. A Player may perform the Action of [Terminating Ladder] to end a Venbacker Ladder Game State, provided e is situated at a Station with a Venbacker Number below 21 or above 275. ### Lessening the burden once again. You can even terminate a Ladder Down from the top. Proposal 773 - Humpty Dumpty Loop [Enactment] A Humpty Dumpty Loop has the Trap Stations Kingsbury, Queensway, Prince Regent, Earl's Court, Barons Court, Knightsbridge. ### All the King's Men. Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] ### Introducing White Tokens and making Angel a bit dangerous. Blackfriars is, of course, Angel's evil brother. Proposal 775 - Return of the Son of the Revenge of the Clever Bear [Amendment] ### A multitude of rewards is nice, if it is administrable (that must be the word). Proposal 776 - Hatcheries [Action] ### Oooops! Bayswater is not on Circle! I might make [Recolouring] next week - to make Notting Hill Gate - Bayswater - Paddington part of Central. Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] ### Deletng all the Homes. Could make life quite interesting. I had thought of resetting all the Game States with it, too, but decided not to (though not for any good reason). Proposal 778 - Fair Warning [Enactment] ### Whazt does the Speaker say? Proposal 779 - New, Clear Bomb [Amendment] ### Nice. Proposal 780 - Muzzling [Amendment] ### Probably a good idea. Proposal 781 - A Chip Off The Old Bock [Multiple] ### Nice rewording. * The Actioning Player is situated at a Station of the Bock colour, which for the purpose of this rule is defined as a Station with the colour string in its name (e.g. "Goldhawk Road" for Gold Bock). ### ShoREDitch!! (I kind of like that) Adjust the cost of "[ Bock]" to "-3 Bu, -1 ". ### As said earlier, 3+1 are many. Possibly too many. Proposal 782 - A Poor Second To Belgium [Action] ### No Quadruple, Quintuple, Sextuple Helsinki? Nice, still. Proposal 783 - Fighting For Our Wealth [Enactment: Section 2.4] In addition to Tokens received at the start of the Game, each Player receives one Gold Token. ### Probably a good idea. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 04:01:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22574 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 10:27:12 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 10:27:12 -0000 Received: from opus (p456-83.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.211]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA09240 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:27:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <019901beace2$74294280$91802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:26:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Riff wrote: (quoting me) :>How about getting Tokens for: :> :>1) the number of Lines at the Start Station, if it is an Interchange, :>2) the number of Interchanges moved through, and :>3) the number of Lines at the End Station, if it is an Interchange. :> :>This way, we can keep the Token Collection Table symmetric. : : :Or, we could simply revert to the old version of the token collection :table, which gave additional tokens for the higher numbers: : : :I was never sure why we stopped using it, anyway... : I guess it was because it gave additional Tokens for the _higher_ numbers. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jun 2 04:02:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23685 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 10:29:44 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 10:29:44 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 1999 11:29:44 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j312o$fjlp@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:29:44 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >How about getting Tokens for: > > > >1) the number of Lines at the Start Station, if it is an Interchange, > >2) the number of Interchanges moved through, and > >3) the number of Lines at the End Station, if it is an Interchange. > > > >This way, we can keep the Token Collection Table symmetric. > > Or, we could simply revert to the old version of the token collection > table, which gave additional tokens for the higher numbers: Not quite the same thing; Ole was proposing an alternative (and needlessly fiddly, unless I miss something) way of phrasing the "twice the Token bonus for the number of Lines at the End Station" suggestion from Jonathan, whereas the original Collection table merely gave ridiculous bonuses for passing through more than five Interchanges. > I was never sure why we stopped using it, anyway... Because people were getting ridiculous amounts of Tokens when travelling at high speeds; on top of the fact that a high LV is preferable anyway (more Stations available to Move to, greater number of routes to any given Station, more power when Shunting, etc.), this seemed too unfair. Focus should really be on the Station you manage to end up at, since ultimately it's that which matters more to the rest of the Game. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 04:05:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5954 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 10:58:59 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 10:58:59 -0000 Received: from opus (p456-83.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.211]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14864 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:58:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01cd01beace6$e3103ba0$91802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:58:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: A Radio Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does BBC send ISIHAC? Or have they stopped? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 04:16:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14734 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 11:16:16 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 11:16:16 -0000 Received: from opus (p137-36.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.205.36]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29928 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:16:09 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01ed01beace9$4d518c60$91802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:13:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : :Not quite the same thing; Ole was proposing an alternative (and needlessly fiddly, unless I miss something) way of phrasing the "twice the Token bonus for the number of Lines at the End Station" suggestion from Jonathan, whereas the original Collection table merely gave ridiculous bonuses for passing through more than five Interchanges. : You missed something. There are three differences: 1) If you are Shunted or otherwise transported between the end of your Move and the beginning of your next Move, you'll get another result. 2) If you still are where you left off, your reward comes one Turn later. 3) There is only one table to memoris(z?)e: 1-nothing, 2-red, 3-black, 4-blue, 5-silver Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jun 2 05:40:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 29595 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 12:40:08 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 12:40:08 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 1999 13:40:08 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j38n8$omou@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:40:08 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <01ed01beace9$4d518c60$91802fc3@opus> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > :Not quite the same thing; Ole was proposing an alternative (and needlessly > fiddly, unless I miss something) way [...] > > You missed something. There are three differences: > > 1) If you are Shunted or otherwise transported between the end of your Move > and the beginning of your next Move, you'll get another result. > > 2) If you still are where you left off, your reward comes one Turn later. I suppose. This does little but strengthen Shunting, though, at the expense of making it take a while longer to calculate Token bonuses. Perhaps worth it, perhaps not, but either way I'm still against the idea of doubling Token bonuses for destinations; two Silvers for a Move to Kings Cross (whether split between two Turns or not), plus whatever else you can garner through the passing of Interchanges, just seems ludicrous. > 3) There is only one table to memoris(z?)e: > 1-nothing, 2-red, 3-black, 4-blue, 5-silver I always misremember it as black/red/blue/silver, myself, since that seems the more logical increase in Token worth. Tish. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 05:47:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1245 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 12:47:15 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 12:47:15 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29319 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13953 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:11 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA00220; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:11 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906021247.NAA00220@u...> Date: 02 Jun 99 13:44:38 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-510-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 02-Jun-99 11:58 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: A Radio Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ole asked: > Does BBC send ISIHAC? Or have they stopped? They're still going - it's currently running on Radio 4 at 1830 BST on Monday and on Sunday lunchtime (1200 BST or 1230 BST depending on the schedulers' mood). (BST is GMT+0100) -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 07:01:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17703 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 13:59:20 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 13:59:20 -0000 Received: from opus (p134-31.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.204.95]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15227 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:59:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201bead00$15b76ba0$5fcc52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:51:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Not quite Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have puzzled a bit with changing the metallic exchange rates. The _proper_ thing would, of course, be 12 Bronze to one Silver, and 20 Silver to one Gold. Some of the costs and bonuses would have to be changed, too. Ole Btw, I think Bz would be a better abbreviation for Bronze - I keep wondering about those Brown Tokens. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jun 2 07:01:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18729 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 14:00:31 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 14:00:31 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 1999 15:00:31 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j3ddv$dnbm@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:00:31 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <375b6427.8370798@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 767 - Not at All Good for the Environment [Action] Still as dodgy as the original, I suspect; spending five Tokens to take a flight from one Heathrow to the other seems ridiculous, and even in a Finsbury Option game, it seems too obscure to be useful. (Why not just Wild?) >Rule 1.7.x - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur This is an excellent idea, which I've only a couple of misgivings about. Firstly the cost - although the Golds mean that it's a fair enough route to victory (making it free would just render it annoying were someone to pull off a second-Turn Win), they make it quite pointless to use otherwise - aside from victory, I really can't imagine any circumstance where you'd want to use this (particularly when you can Wild to a specific destination, or at least Charge Tunnel if you need a path to somewhere distant). Two Golds on the off-chance you'll get where you might need to be? Unappealing. The idea of rolling dice mid-Move is quite suspect, also; what happens if you change your mind about your Move before submitting it, but after you've rolled the die? Such is indistinguishable from rolling the die, seeing what you get, then changing your mind if it's bad. Plus, actually (and this remains a problem with the existing dice implementation), you can cheerfully replace any Turns which involve bad die rolls, continually doing so until you get a number you like. A Bad Thing. A random Move does sound like an entertaining thing, though; I'd welcome a more watertight reproposal of this one. >Proposal 768 - Game States rewrite [Multiple] Nicely tidying. The bit about "enough Game States should be deleted from the start of the line to make room for it" is a bit scary, but I suppose shouldn't ever really become an issue. >Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] A necessary amendment, I think. But... > * All Tokens spent on any particular Action must be placed on >different Stacks. If there are not enough eligible Stacks available, the >excess Tokens are destroyed. Hmm. This means that you can't create new Stacks with expended Tokens... There's probably a little too much ambiguity apropos of the difference between "a Token Stack" and "the Tokens, if any, resting at a Station". > If a Station contains another entity which is listed in the Token >Stack table (Suspect Packages, Flags, the Podume of Infinite Darkness >etc.) then no Tokens may be placed there at all. However, this other >item does not count against the number of Stacks that may coexist. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, really, since it's not exhaustive - you can still drop a Flag on a Stack, Shunt the Podume onto a Stack, and so forth. >Proposal 770 - Loop the Loop [Multiple] Quite a poor words-to-improvement ratio, as I read it. The return of the dangerously fuzzy "Move eir Piece directly" unsettles me (is this a replacement of the normal Move, or not?), the Invocation Actions strike as superfluous (moving to a uniquely identified Station is enough, I think), the DH loop is weakened (you can Escape for the price of a Sidestep, without having to be at DH), the Morden Paradox lacks a Trap Station and there's a casual and abusable "chosen at random by the next Player". On the plus side, this does clarify what happens if one Loop starts in the middle of another, it fixes the Dollis Escape (at present you can never get an LV of 10, because each Special Move to Dollis Hill zeroes your LV), and makes Passing less of a free Sidestep, but this isn't enough to save it, for me. >Proposal 771 - Game into Boris... [Enactment] This doesn't really fit the Morningtonia definition (perhaps we should have a link to the Encyclopaedia from our Web page, actually?), but seems fairly interesting nevertheless. I'm a bit hazy as to what happens if I don't change Line but don't have any Black Tokens, and the denied Passing leaves a bad taste, but otherwise it seems alright. >Proposal 772 - Ladders Up and Down. [Multiple] Reversing the direction and loosening the boundaries at either end is nice, but I'm not sure why the rest of the rule has been so dramatically reworded; making it dependent on one's last Move rather than the previous Player's Move takes away much of the beauty of the thing. >Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] Even though this now gives us the five mana colours from Magic, which is slightly amusing, I don't think it's a terribly worthwhile addition, at least without some suggested White Actions, and a way to actually get the things aside from Passing and Token Generating. >Proposal 775 - Return of the Son of the Revenge of the Clever Bear [Amendment] Very gentlemanly and "proper Crescent", I must say. Bravo. >Proposal 776 - Hatcheries [Action] A fine implementation of Hatching, and perhaps suitably expensive (particularly in that you have to Hatch and *then* Cross-Hatch a Line, to get it Cross-Hatched). I'm not quite sure what should happen to someone who's caught at a Hatched Station, though... It's not part of the Line any more, but are they able to Move to other Hatched Stations on that Line? Puzzling. >Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] Curious. Perhaps a little cheap, in that it forces every Player to make their next Move a good distance from the Crescent (and is thus a very strong Win-denial), and can make a mockery of Capture the Flag games, but interestingly appealing all the same. It could probably use amendment so that Home Stations are lost at the end of the Turn, though, so that the Actioning Player can't "[Home:]" immediately and get the best place. >Proposal 778 - Fair Warning [Enactment] Rather odd to give the Speaker more work, because some people are forgetting to vote. This seems a rather convoluted way of doing it, too - the Speaker of Thring just used to send out an automated "thirty-six hours left, everyone" message to the list each week, which did the job neatly enough. How easy would that be for you to implement, automated or otherwise, Dunx? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Jun 2 10:39:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9659 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 17:39:49 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 17:39:49 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA24428 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:44:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:42:30 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Not quite Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have puzzled a bit with changing the metallic exchange rates. > >The _proper_ thing would, of course, be 12 Bronze to one Silver, and 20 >Silver to one Gold. This was proposed at one point previously... --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 14:46:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12452 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 21:46:34 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 21:46:34 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id HAA15806; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:46:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015798; Thu, 3 Jun 99 07:46:18 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:45:48 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:45:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 5:04 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > Or, we could simply revert to the old version of the token collection > table, which gave additional tokens for the higher numbers: > I was never sure why we stopped using it, anyway... Kevan repealed all the higher interchange bonuses because he apparently doesn't like people going at high velocities. I think he doesn't like people getting huge numbers of tokens in a turn. I can't really understand why - I don't think it's been plain from what's gone on. *shrugs* Difference of opinion, really. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 15:03:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23341 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 22:03:52 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 22:03:52 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA18228; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:03:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma018162; Thu, 3 Jun 99 08:03:34 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:03:03 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:02:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 8:30 PM, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > Not quite the same thing; Ole was proposing an alternative (and needlessly > fiddly, unless I miss something) way of phrasing the "twice the Token > bonus for the number of Lines at the End Station" suggestion from > Jonathan, whereas the original Collection table merely gave ridiculous > bonuses for passing through more than five Interchanges. Not necessarily. Special moves would change where you claim the first token bonus from. > Because people were getting ridiculous amounts of Tokens when travelling > at high speeds; on top of the fact that a high LV is preferable anyway > (more Stations available to Move to, greater number of routes to any > given Station, more power when Shunting, etc.), this seemed too unfair. > Focus should really be on the Station you manage to end up at, since > ultimately it's that which matters more to the rest of the Game. As I said at the time, why not then limit the LV to six say? Reducing the reasons people need for a high LV doesn't stop it being attractive. For instance, you're never going to stop high LV giving more powerful shunts unless you make another (constant shunt distance, say) system for Shunts - which is going to be abused in its turn. A high LV is always going to be an advantage. I think Jonathan's point of view here is more useful - learn to deal with it in a game context rather than getting out the Nomic Scalpel and changing it. There are always going to be methods that are more useful; you just have to take that on board. I agree with Kevan that you sometimes have to change the rules if something's too powerful or too useless, but I think you may have a hair trigger on the shotgun there Kevan :-) Have fun as always, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 15:11:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28276 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 22:11:39 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 22:11:39 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA20950; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:11:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma020902; Thu, 3 Jun 99 08:11:28 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:10:57 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:10:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:40 PM, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > > 3) There is only one table to memoris(z?)e: > > 1-nothing, 2-red, 3-black, 4-blue, 5-silver I do think that's a very good point there Ole. > I always misremember it as black/red/blue/silver, myself, since that seems > the more logical increase in Token worth. Tish. Actually, I was thinking that we might go black/red/blue/green/silver. That would make Green tokens marginally more available and would get them flowing so to speak. Even then, KCSP is still a prized station because of its proximity to MNCT and multi-line access. Yes, two silvers might concievably be overpowered, but I think this is something we can't judge until we've tried it out. Certainly with an LV of five or more (which is achievable from a standing start in two turns) you can pick up a Silver easily. This doesn't seem to be ruining the game. Interestingly, no-one's pointed out that the Recycling action basically means actions with a Green token are effectively priced at "-2Re/Bk/Bu" plus whatever their cost is. If we shot the Recycling action, people would have a lot more difficulty with quite a few actions. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 15:16:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31736 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 22:16:45 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA23240; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:16:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma023087; Thu, 3 Jun 99 08:16:15 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:15:44 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:15:39 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Not quite Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:51 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > The _proper_ thing would, of course, be 12 Bronze to one Silver, and 20 > Silver to one Gold. > Some of the costs and bonuses would have to be changed, too. You've basically answered yourself. In order to change the exchange rate you'd have to make Gold's proportionally more difficult to get, which in most cases would make it almost impossible to win (consider that that one gold, worth 240 bronze, can be stolen away in one shunt). Or, if you go the other way, people's Bronze column would be so cumbersome it would be almost pointless. The exchange rate that we've got works well enough, I suppose. Things like this are a bit of a pity, but it makes more sense this way (I feel). Lots of opinions today, eh? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 15:46:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16636 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jun 1999 22:46:22 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 22:46:22 -0000 Received: from opus (p113-55.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.197.55]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA29251 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:46:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <017801bead49$b6614b40$5fcc52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:09:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : :>Proposal 776 - Hatcheries [Action] : :A fine implementation of Hatching, and perhaps suitably expensive :(particularly in that you have to Hatch and *then* Cross-Hatch a Line, :to get it Cross-Hatched). I'm not quite sure what should happen to :someone who's caught at a Hatched Station, though... It's not part of :the Line any more, but are they able to Move to other Hatched Stations :on that Line? Puzzling. : The Line Segment stops being a part of the Line, it doesn't disappear. So a Move along a Hatched Line Segment is, basically, not a Same-Line Move. : :>Proposal 778 - Fair Warning [Enactment] : :Rather odd to give the Speaker more work, because some people are :forgetting to vote. This seems a rather convoluted way of doing it, too :- the Speaker of Thring just used to send out an automated "thirty-six :hours left, everyone" message to the list each week, which did the job :neatly enough. How easy would that be for you to implement, automated :or otherwise, Dunx? : I think that _everybody_ on the list can do it. Just define an 'Event' in the e-group you want to notify. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 2 18:05:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31235 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 01:01:41 -0000 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.25) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 01:01:40 -0000 Received: from modem-23.indium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.24.23] helo=franz-liszt) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10pLt3-0005Zw-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:01:37 +0100 Message-ID: <00c001bead5d$24b10fa0$1718883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:05:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Proposal 768 - Game States rewrite [Multiple] > >Nicely tidying. The bit about "enough Game States should be deleted from >the start of the line to make room for it" is a bit scary, but I suppose >shouldn't ever really become an issue. Well, it's exactly the same implementation as the Disruptions box... >>Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] >A necessary amendment, I think. But... > >> * All Tokens spent on any particular Action must be placed on >>different Stacks. If there are not enough eligible Stacks available, the >>excess Tokens are destroyed. > >Hmm. This means that you can't create new Stacks with expended Tokens... >There's probably a little too much ambiguity apropos of the difference >between "a Token Stack" and "the Tokens, if any, resting at a Station". The rules already say that Tokens expended to perform Actions must be dropped on a Token Stack, so this does not actually change that at all... already the implication is that one cannot create new Stacks with expended Tokens. So the ambiguity exists already, and this does nothing to make it worse. In any case, single Tokens are being placed on the board anyway, presumably defined as being Stacks of one Token after the placement... Of course, new Stacks cannot be created if the limit has been reached. >> If a Station contains another entity which is listed in the Token >>Stack table (Suspect Packages, Flags, the Podume of Infinite Darkness >>etc.) then no Tokens may be placed there at all. However, this other >>item does not count against the number of Stacks that may coexist. > >I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, really, since it's not >exhaustive - you can still drop a Flag on a Stack, Shunt the Podume >onto a Stack, and so forth. Could do with a rewording, I suppose - to say that these items may also not be placed on, or shunted to, stations containing Stacks unless the Stack is shunted away (or perhaps double-shunted - at the moment, double-shunting isn't allowed for Stacks, and my proposals to introduce it have failed twice - probably because of all the peripherals involved rather than the act itself.) >>Proposal 770 - Loop the Loop [Multiple] > >Quite a poor words-to-improvement ratio, as I read it. The return of >the dangerously fuzzy "Move eir Piece directly" unsettles me (is this >a replacement of the normal Move, or not?) Yes. It is, after all, considered a Special Move (as detailed just two lines below), which does indeed happen in place of a normal Move. However, it cannot be blocked by anything else (thus preventing the paradox of being unable to play Dollis Hill when in Knid.) > the Invocation Actions >strike as superfluous (moving to a uniquely identified Station is >enough, I think) But this would mean, for instance, that certain Stations can never be entered without Looping. This is clearly not the case with any Station except Dollis Hill - plenty of Players in real MC go to Amersham or Aldwych without starting A-A loops, or to Pimlico without starting Loops, or indeed to Morden without invoking the Paradox. So it is obvious that some Loops are started deliberately, and require some additional Action as well as the Player's presence at the Station. Therefore, there has to be some separate Action of [ Loop] for starting that Loop. > the DH loop is weakened (you can Escape for the >price of a Sidestep, without having to be at DH), You really don't like the idea of being able to get out of Dollis Hill Loops without having actually been there, do you? But this is what has been happening anyway - someone plays a "Dollis Sidestep" for 1 Silver to ignore the DH Loop, and as a result the Loop is considered ended because the last non-Pass move is to somewhere other than DH. Thus I have brought it under the heading of an Escape (which ends the Loop), as opposed to a Sidestep (which now merely avoids it while keeping the rest of the players in), but the end result is exactly the same - no matter what you prefer to call it. > the Morden Paradox >lacks a Trap Station and there's a casual and abusable "chosen at >random by the next Player". Whoops. Bugfix coming up... Trap Station for the Morden Paradox is of course Morden. As for the "chosen at random by the next Player", this should only apply to a Timeout - and is mainly meant to prevent Players passing or timeouting to avoid being drawn into a Loop at all. Consider that the chances of actually being forced into an Unordered Multiple-Trap Loop are very slim anyway (considering that there is exactly one such Loop contained in this Proposal), and any Player timeouting in such a situation clearly has to be forced into the Loop somewhere or gain the unfair advantage of being allowed to ignore it by passing - I can hardly imagine Mrs Trellis trying something like that, but it's the sort of thing that Ruttsborough or Stannard might try to get away with - deliberately timing out in order to avoid going into the loop, and thus remain outside for that one crucial extra turn. Hence the fact that the next Player chooses the timeouting Player's destination... >>Proposal 771 - Game into Boris... [Enactment] >This doesn't really fit the Morningtonia definition (perhaps we should >have a link to the Encyclopaedia from our Web page, actually?), but >seems fairly interesting nevertheless. I'm a bit hazy as to what happens >if I don't change Line but don't have any Black Tokens, and the denied >Passing leaves a bad taste, but otherwise it seems alright. If you don't have any black tokens, you *have* to change Line or the move is Invalid. If you can't change line, there is no valid Move and as such you must Pass. But in Boris, the Pass is also denied - however, a Special Move into a Dollis Hill Loop is permitted, and enforced, instead (basically, this replaces the Pass, which otherwise can be used as a forcing Action - for instance when Visiting, collecting Pigeons, forging a PoID etc.) Hence the nastiness of the condition, which is not obvious at first: one has to change Line or lose a Black Token, but moves are limited to short distances (the restriction on LV) which implies comparatively less chance of being able to change Line in that distance... ...and the real nastiness of it is that, if a DH loop does start, there is no way of being able to get to an LV of 10. It is still possible for Players to cooperate to give one player 10 tokens of the same colour, (enough for a Bonanza), gain 1 Gold, split to 2 Silvers, pay one Silver for the Escape and move past Wembley Park (thus changing Line, legally.) But DH Loops will be much harder to get out of in Boris, and much easier to get into... Yes, I've thought very carefully about just how evil I can get with this condition. The idea being that one has to tread very carefully to avoid total disaster, and the player cannot simply avoid the dilemma by Passing because that triggers off the Dollis Hill trap which is suddenly much more deadly. Thus, about as close to the EM definition as I could get. And a little bit of MC history I dug up recently: nobody knows who it was that was first caught on a Line during a Power Failure with the game in what is now known as "Boris" - but when Mrs Trellis used the tactic on the Piccadilly in the '84 final for her revenge against Baryshnikov, the Russian was trapped at Russell Square with nowhere to go (not even to change Line since Russell Square is not an interchange) except Dollis Hill, and the now-infamous "Bloomsbury Boris Bomb" was born. A little snippet of info which surprised me when I discovered it, as the BBB is now a tactic so beloved of Ruttsborough-style players, but it is in fact a Trellis invention. >>Proposal 772 - Ladders Up and Down. [Multiple] > >Reversing the direction and loosening the boundaries at either end is >nice, but I'm not sure why the rest of the rule has been so dramatically >reworded; making it dependent on one's last Move rather than the >previous Player's Move takes away much of the beauty of the thing. I must admit I hadn't noticed that distinction. Whoops. (On the other hand, this makes it a little more like Charge Spirals where each move is dependent on the Player's previous Charge rather than the previous Player's current Charge. I nicked the wording from there, not noticing the subtle change of meaning... it can always be amended back next week, but I don't think a little thing like that is worth losing the chance to climb down or reverse the Ladder for.) >>Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] > >Even though this now gives us the five mana colours from Magic, which is >slightly amusing, I don't think it's a terribly worthwhile addition, at >least without some suggested White Actions, and a way to actually get >the things aside from Passing and Token Generating. I agree (for once :-) >>Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] > >Curious. Perhaps a little cheap, in that it forces every Player to make >their next Move a good distance from the Crescent (and is thus a very >strong Win-denial), and can make a mockery of Capture the Flag games, >but interestingly appealing all the same. > >It could probably use amendment so that Home Stations are lost at the >end of the Turn, though, so that the Actioning Player can't "[Home:]" >immediately and get the best place. If it's a Post-Move Action, there isn't a problem except with Capture the Flag (from which this Rule should be specifically disallowed.) Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Wed Jun 2 23:04:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11751 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 06:04:19 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 06:04:19 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10pQbt-000NBV-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:04:13 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990603065442.0093aaa0@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:00:54 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Updates to Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following updates to Proposals have been received. The modified versions are for voting on in Week 8. The Proposals modified are: 767, 769, 770, 771, 772, 774, 777. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 767 - Not at All Good for the Environment [Action] New Rule 1.7.x - Not at All Good for the Environment A Player may perform a Pre-Move Action of "[Taxiplane to ]", where is defined as an Airport Interchange, provided e is at an Airport Interchange. When a Player performs the Action "[Taxiplane to ]", eir LV is set to zero, and a Special Move to is allowed. New Rule 1.7.x - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur A Player may perform a Post-Move Action of "[Bransoning]", provided e is at an Airport Interchange. When a Player performs the Action "[Bransoning]", eir LV is set to zero, and e must roll a 295-sided die. The next Actioning Player must then look up the rolled number in the Venbacker Table. The Bransoning Player is deemed to have ended eir Turn at the Station indicated by the roll. This Special Move is always allowed. Insert in Action Table ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Taxiplane to ] Pre 1.7.x -2 Gr -1 Bk [Bransoning] Post 1.7.x -1 Go -2 Gr -1 Bk {Comment: Halved the prices and cleaned Bransoning a bit. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] - Remove, if it exists, the bullet point in Rule 4.1.19 which states that "all Tokens for a particular action must be placed on the same Stack." - Add the following bullet point to Rule 1.4.19: * All Tokens spent on any particular Action must be placed on different Stacks. If there are not enough eligible Stacks available, the excess Tokens are destroyed. - Amend the final paragraph of Rule 1.14.3 to read as follows: There may be no more than three Stacks in each Quadrant, and no Token Stack may contain more than six Tokens: if a Token is dropped on a Stack containing six tokens, the bottom Token of that Stack is destroyed to make room for it. If a Station contains another entity which is listed in the Token Stack table (Suspect Packages, Flags, the Podume of Infinite Darkness etc.) then no Tokens may be placed there at all. However, this other item does not count against the number of Stacks that may coexist. Also, no non-Token entity except a Player's Piece may be placed on a Station containing a Token Stack, or Shunted to such a Station unless the Token Stack is Shunted (or Double-Shunted) away first. - Amend the second-to-last paragraph (i.e. the one before the given example) of Rule 1.10.1 so that its final sentence reads: Token Stacks may not be Shunted to any Station containing another Token Stack unless a Double Shunt is played. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 770 - Loop the Loop [Multiple] - Repeal Rules 1.8.1 and 1.8.6. - New Rule 1.8.1 (Loop the Loop): The Game may be in a "Loop" State, which should be detailed in the Game States section as "Loop:" where is the type of Loop. Only one Loop State may exist at once: if the game is placed into more than one Loop, then the most recent Loop continues, and all other Loops are ended. For each Loop, the following must be defined: * A Loop Type: either "Automatic" or "Invoked". * One or more Trap Stations: moving to one of these may start the Loop automatically (in the case of an Automatic Loop) or if the moving Player plays the [ Loop] Action (in the case of an Invoked Loop). If there is more than one Trap Station, they may be Sequential (the stations must be played in a pre-set order) or Unordered (the Player may move to any of the Trap Stations of that particular Loop, with the provision that e may only stay at the same Station if e plays a move of Pass.) * A [ Loop] Action to begin Invoked Loops, together with the cost and conditions of that Action. * A [ Escape] Action to allow the Player of this Action to end the "Loop" Game State, together with the cost and conditions of that Action. * (Optional) A [ Sidestep] Action to allow the Player of this Action to ignore the Loop while leaving the "Loop" Game State still in force for other Players. Also, the cost and conditions of that Action. * (Optional) Any other special features pertaining to that Loop. When a Game is in a Loop State, the Player whose Turn it is *must* do one of the following things: * Make a Standard Move to the Trap Station (or one of them: the next in sequence, should the loop be Multiple and Sequential) if such a Move would normally be possible, depending on LV and any other conditions of play. * Make a Special Move directly to the Trap Station (or one of them: the next in sequence, should the loop be Multiple and Sequential.) A Special Move to a Trap Station of a Loop which is currently in play is always valid, and may not be prevented in any way by any Actions or conditions which prevent Special Moves, and LV is only set to zero if the Player's previous location was a non-Trap Station. * Play a [ Sidestep] Action. E may then move as normal for eir Turn, but the Loop State remains for future players. If three consecutive players (discounting Passes) play Sidestep Actions, the Loop State is ended immediately. * Play a [ Escape] Action. The Loop State is ended, and e may move eir Piece as normal. * Pass or Timeout: eir Piece is immediately moved to a Loop Trap station (or one of them, if there are more than one, and in the correct order if the Loop is Sequential.) In the case of a Timeout, the Player calling the Timeout has the responsibility of stating the destination of the Timeouted Player according to the above restrictions. The following types of Loop are recognised: (1) Standard Holding Loop. (Invoked, Single Trap) Trap Station: As chosen by the [Looping] Actioning Player. Entry Action: [Loop the Loop] - cost=2 Blue. Sidestep Action: [Loop Sidestep] Cost=2 Black Escape Action: [Loop Escape] Cost=1 Blue if at the Trap Station, 2 Blue otherwise. (2) Dollis Hill Loop (Automatic, Single Trap) Trap Station: Dollis Hill Entry Action: Any move which leaves the moving Player at Dollis Hill at the end of eir Turn. Sidestep Action: none. Escape Action: [Dollis Escape] Cost:1 Silver unless the Actioning Player has an LV of 10 or greater. Special: If Game Time is after 2200 hours, a Player at Dollis Hill may play the [Ongar Denial] Action. This destroys all Knid, Spoon and Narg Clamps in play, removes the game from Knip if it is in Knip, and ends the "Dollis Hill Loop" Game State. Ongar becomes a valid Special Move destination for that Player, and may not be prevented by any means. It should be noted that, although Ongar is a Ghost Station, the Ongar Denial is considered to include the [Ghosting] Action implicitly: that Action need not be played separately from the Ongar Denial. (3) Amersham-Aldwych Loop (Invoked, Unordered Multiple Trap) Trap Stations: Amersham, Aldwych. Entry Action: [A-A Loop] - cost 1 Red, 1 Blue Tokens Sidestep Action: [A-A Sidestep] - cost 1 Green, 1 Blue Token. Escape Action: [A-A Escape] - cost 1 Green, 1 Blue if performed at Amersham or Aldwych *and* LV is 10 or greater, 2 Green and 2 Blue otherwise. Special: Each Player enters the Loop at either Station, but on any future Looped turns must either move to the other Station or play a Pass. Also, note that Aldwych is a Ghost Station, and may only be entered with the [Ghosting] Special Move Action. If this is not possible, a Player at Amersham must Pass. (4) Morden Paradox (Invoked, Single Trap) Trap Station: Morden Entry Action: [Using the Morden Paradox Gambit]. This starts the loop automatically. Sidestep Action: [Paradox Sidestep], cost 3 Black Escape Action: [Paradox Escape], cost 3 Black if performed at Morden, 6 Black otherwise. - Delete the Pimlico Loop rule if it has passed. - Delete the [Dollis Escape] and [Dollis Sidestep] Actions from the Action Table, and replace with the following: [ Loop] Post-Move, cost varies. [ Sidestep] Pre-Move, cost varies. [ Escape] Pre-Move, cost varies. [Ongar Denial] Pre-Move, cost 2 Black and 1 Blue ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 771 - Game into Boris... [Enactment] Rule 1.8.x The Game shall have a State known as "Boris", which it is either In or Out of: at the start of the game it is Out of Boris, which is considered the default. If the game is In Boris, this should be noted in the GSD Game States section as "Boris". A Player may play the [Into Boris] or [Out of Boris] Action on eir Turn, changing the Boris state accordingly. When a Game is in Boris, the following conditions apply: * The bonus in Table 1.4.20 of 1 Black Token for remaining on the same Line does not apply: instead, a bonus of 1 Black Token is given for any Standard Move which does *not* remain on the same Line. * The [Line Change] action has a cost of zero: instead, any Standard Move which does not involve this Action incurs a penalty of 1 Black Token. If the Player has no Black Tokens, any Standard Move which does not involve a change of Line is invalid. * LV is limited to four less than the usual maximum (i.e. normally 6), and may only be adjusted by up to two points each turn. * No Player may perform any Post-Move Action which changes the location of eir Piece. * No Player may make a move of "Pass". If there exist any conditions which enforce a move of "Pass", the Player must instead make a Special Move (which cannot be prevented by any means) to Dollis Hill instead. Similarly, Timeouted Players are moved automatically to Dollis Hill. A Dollis Hill Loop state is begun in either case. New Actions for the Action Table: [Into Boris] Neutral, 1.8.x, cost 2 Re 2 Bu [Out of Boris] Neutral, 1.8.x, cost 2 Gr 2 Bl. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 772 - Ladders Up and Down. [Multiple] Delete the text of the "Venbacker Ladder" Rule and replace with the following: A Player may perform the Action of [Venbacker Ladder: ] where is either Up or Down, to bring the Game into a State of Venbacker Ladder - this is noted in the Game States section as "Ladder Up" or "Ladder Down". While a Venbacker Ladder is in effect, the following applies: (1) If the ladder is Up at the start of a Player's Turn, then a Standard Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number lower than that of the previous Player's location is Invalid. (2) If the ladder is Down at the start of a Player's Turn, then a Standard Move to a Station with a Venbacker Number higher than the previous Player's location is Invalid. A Player may perform the Action of [Ladder Sidestep] to ignore the Ladder for one Turn: it remains in effect for other Players. A Player may perform the Action of [Ladder Reverse] to reverse the Ladder, from Up to Down or from Down to Up. A Player may perform the Action of [Terminating Ladder] to end a Venbacker Ladder Game State, provided e is situated at a Station with a Venbacker Number below 21 (if the Ladder is Down) or above 275 (if it is Up.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Venbacker Ladder Up/Down] Post 1.8.x -2 Bu [Ladder Sidestep] Pre 1.8.x -3 Bk [Ladder Reverse] Neut 1.8.x -1 Bu -1 Bk [Terminating Ladder] Post 1.8.x ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] Amend Rule 1.4.1 - Token Gesture In the Game of Mornington Crescent, there exist a number of differently coloured Tokens, which can be carried by Players and piled in Stacks on Stations. Tokens are created and lost as the Game progresses, and all are listed on the Game State Document. There are eight colours of Token - three Metallic (Gold, Silver and Bronze) and five Plastic (Black, Blue, Green, Red and White). Tokens may be awarded for certain Moves and Actions within the game, and must be expended to perform particular Actions. The Token Cost of any Action shall, where applicable, reflect the nature of the Action and the extent of its effect. The nature of the Action shall be reflected in the colour of Token required and the extent shall be reflected in the number of Tokens required. The type of Actions the different Token Colours should apply to shall be as follows: * Black : Move Actions (those which only affect the position or movement of the Actioning Player's Piece) * Blue : Indirectly Aggressive Actions (those which may indirectly affect the movement or status of another Player's Piece) * Green : Neutral Actions (those which have no immediate effect on any Piece's position, such as declarations) * Red : Aggressive Actions (those which directly affect the position, status or ability to Move of another Player) * White : Defensive Actions (those which protect the Actioning Player) * Bronze : 'Purchasing' Actions (those relating to the acquisition of Gold Tokens and Possessions) * Silver / Gold : Special Actions (ones which should only be allowed to be used infrequently, thus cost more) New Rule 1.4.x - With or Without Sulfo If a Token is Shunted (or moved by similar means) to Angel, the Token turns White. If a White Token is Shunted (or moved by similar means) to Blackfriars, the Token turns Black. Amend lines in 1.7.2: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Collection Plate] Neut 1.11.7 -1 Si +1 Wh [Collecting Tithe] Neut 1.7.31 -1 Wh [Cowering] Post 1.7.x -1 Wh [Soap on ()] Pre 1.9.x -2 Wh Amend Lost & Found-table in 1.7.53: +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1-43 | Nothing | | | 44-51 | | Accused of Theft # | | 52-53 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 54 | Velocity Bomb | | | 55 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 56 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 57 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 58-59 | Spectacles | Garment | | 60-61 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 62 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 63-64 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 65 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 66 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 67 | Casiotone | Musical | | 68 | Drum | Musical | | 69 | Guitar | Musical | | 70 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 71 | Saxophone | Musical | | 72 | Violin | Musical | | 73 | Piano | Musical, Too Big | | 74 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 75 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 76 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 77 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 78 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 79 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 80 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 81 | Book | Papery | | 82-83 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 84 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 85 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 86 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 87 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 88 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 89 | Tokens | 2 White | | 90 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 91 | Token | 1 Silver | | 92 | Token | 1 Gold | | >92 | | First item in Lost & Found Box | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill and loses one Bronze Token, if e has any. {Comment: Redefined the White role. Added a couple of ways of getting White Tokens, and a couple of ways of getting rid of them.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] Amend Rule 1.4.1 - Token Gesture In the Game of Mornington Crescent, there exist a number of differently coloured Tokens, which can be carried by Players and piled in Stacks on Stations. Tokens are created and lost as the Game progresses, and all are listed on the Game State Document. There are eight colours of Token - three Metallic (Gold, Silver and Bronze) and five Plastic (Black, Blue, Green, Red and White). Tokens may be awarded for certain Moves and Actions within the game, and must be expended to perform particular Actions. The Token Cost of any Action shall, where applicable, reflect the nature of the Action and the extent of its effect. The nature of the Action shall be reflected in the colour of Token required and the extent shall be reflected in the number of Tokens required. The type of Actions the different Token Colours should apply to shall be as follows: * Black : Move Actions (those which only affect the position or movement of the Actioning Player's Piece) * Blue : Indirectly Aggressive Actions (those which may indirectly affect the movement or status of another Player's Piece) * Green : Neutral Actions (those which have no immediate effect on any Piece's position, such as declarations) * Red : Aggressive Actions (those which directly affect the position, status or ability to Move of another Player) * White : Defensive Actions (those which protect the Actioning Player) * Bronze : 'Purchasing' Actions (those relating to the acquisition of Gold Tokens and Possessions) * Silver / Gold : Special Actions (ones which should only be allowed to be used infrequently, thus cost more) New Rule 1.4.x - With or Without Sulfo If a Token is Shunted (or moved by similar means) to Angel, the Token turns White. If a White Token is Shunted (or moved by similar means) to Blackfriars, the Token turns Black. Amend lines in 1.7.2: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Collection Plate] Neut 1.11.7 -1 Si +1 Wh [Collecting Tithe] Neut 1.7.31 -1 Wh [Cowering] Post 1.7.x -1 Wh [Soap on ()] Pre 1.9.x -2 Wh Amend Lost & Found-table in 1.7.53: +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ | Roll | Item found | Special/Qualities | +-------------------------+---------------------------------+ | 1-43 | Nothing | | | 44-51 | | Accused of Theft # | | 52-53 | Package | Suspect, dropped | | 54 | Velocity Bomb | | | 55 | Zone 1 Pass | * | | 56 | Zone 2 Pass | * | | 57 | Zone 3 Pass | * | | 58-59 | Spectacles | Garment | | 60-61 | Scarf | Garment, Woolen | | 62 | Glove | Garment, Right Hand | | 63-64 | Glove | Garment, Left Hand | | 65 | Gloves | Garment, Pair | | 66 | Money Belt | Empty, Garment* | | 67 | Casiotone | Musical | | 68 | Drum | Musical | | 69 | Guitar | Musical | | 70 | Harmonica | Small, Musical | | 71 | Saxophone | Musical | | 72 | Violin | Musical | | 73 | Piano | Musical, Too Big | | 74 | A-Z Hat | Hat* | | 75 | BR Hat | Hat* | | 76 | Compass Hat | Hat* | | 77 | Terminus Hat | Hat* | | 78 | Verdant Hat | Hat* | | 79 | Hard Hat | Hat* | | 80 | Silly Hat | Hat* | | 81 | Book | Papery | | 82-83 | Newspaper | Yesterday's, Papery | | 84 | Newspaper | Today's, Papery | | 85 | Tokens | 2 Black | | 86 | Tokens | 2 Blue | | 87 | Tokens | 2 Red | | 88 | Tokens | 2 Green | | 89 | Tokens | 2 White | | 90 | Token | 1 Bronze | | 91 | Token | 1 Silver | | 92 | Token | 1 Gold | | >92 | | First item in Lost & Found Box | +-------+-----------------+---------------------------------+ *) If the Player already possesses the found item, nothing is found. #) The Player is immediately moved to Tower Hill and loses one Bronze Token, if e has any. {Comment: Redefined the White role. Added a couple of ways of getting White Tokens, and a couple of ways of getting rid of them.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] Rule 1.7.x - Lyttleton Announcement A Player may perform the Neutral Action of "[Lyttleton Announcement]". When a Lyttleton Announcement is made, all Players lose eir Home Stations at the end of the Turn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Lyttleton Announcement] Neut 1.7.x 50 -1 Go ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 00:44:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26298 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 07:44:09 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 07:44:09 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29057 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:44:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04069 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:44:08 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id IAA26057; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:44:07 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906030744.IAA26057@u...> Date: 03 Jun 99 08:43:34 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-516-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 02-Jun-99 19:42 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Not quite Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I have puzzled a bit with changing the metallic exchange rates. >> >>The _proper_ thing would, of course, be 12 Bronze to one Silver, and 20 >>Silver to one Gold. >This was proposed at one point previously... Never formally proposed, in the end - I was going to change the names to pounds, shillings and pence also. Kevan talked me down. The reason is that, as Paul has pointed out, the economics would completely change since the relative values of the metals are so wildly different. We might be able to get away with it if we introduced a sub-Bronze token, something like a Pewter, and treated Bronze as the shilling equivalent. Silver would then be closer to the old crown (ten shillings, or half a pound). I'd rather try this in a Special Ruleset to see if it works first, though. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 3 01:33:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15036 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 08:33:11 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 08:33:11 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 1999 09:33:11 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j5ek7$fl90@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:33:11 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Or, we could simply revert to the old version of the token collection > > table, which gave additional tokens for the higher numbers: > > I was never sure why we stopped using it, anyway... > > Kevan repealed all the higher interchange bonuses ...and at least half of you agreed with me enough to vote FOR, of course... > because he apparently > doesn't like people going at high velocities. I think he doesn't like > people getting huge numbers of tokens in a turn. Well, as commented in other messages, a high LV is such a good thing already that it seems unfair to give further reward for it - not to discourage high velocities, merely to stop them giving Players a huge advantage over their slower neighbours. As for people getting huge numbers of Tokens in a single Turn; this is also something of an issue, although it wasn't the main thrust of my repeal. Gaining a large number Tokens per Turn means that you can perform a large number of Actions per Turn; if *everyone* can perform that many Actions then it just makes the game more intense and short-lived (fine, I suppose, for Ruttsborough, but not really the other variants), but since only the faster Players get the bonus, it makes them more likely to maintain their lead. >I can't really understand why - I don't think it's been plain from >what's gone on. Didn't we discover that the large Token bonuses became quite unbalancing, during the week or two that we were using them? Memory fails me. Die young, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 3 02:09:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 32207 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 09:09:30 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 09:09:30 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 1999 10:09:30 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j5go9$gfl1@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:09:29 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Not quite the same thing; Ole was proposing an alternative (and needlessly > > fiddly, unless I miss something) way of phrasing the "twice the Token > > bonus for the number of Lines at the End Station" suggestion from > > Jonathan, whereas the original Collection table merely gave ridiculous > > bonuses for passing through more than five Interchanges. > > Not necessarily. Special moves would change where you claim the first token > bonus from. Well, Straddling and Compass Tricks. You'd still "end your Move" at whichever Station, with a normal Special Move. > As I said at the time, why not then limit the LV to six say? Reducing the > reasons people need for a high LV doesn't stop it being attractive. Reducing its benefits doesn't affect its attractiveness? Um? I just don't want high LV to become a necessary thing for victory, is all; if the Players who rush around Zone 1 with high LVs always end up in a *far* better position than those who try other tactics, then the Game's going to get rather stale and tedious. > A high LV is always going to be an advantage. I think Jonathan's point of > view here is more useful - learn to deal with it in a game context rather > than getting out the Nomic Scalpel and changing it. Jonathan's suggestion (which used, unless I miss your gist, a perfectly sharp Nomic Scalpel) was to make a high LV less powerful by giving greater reward for final destinations; this is one way to take the emphasis off of speed, but I suspect it may result in too many Tokens being thrown around. > I agree with Kevan that you sometimes have to change the rules if > something's too powerful or too useless, but I think you may have a hair > trigger on the shotgun there Kevan :-) [shrugs] I normally only take aim and mention that I'm targetting something, to see if people leap in front of it or blast the thing to oblivion by themselves; I've not proposed any changes to anything yet. A single shotgun can rarely achieve much in a Nomic, in any case. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 03:36:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4154 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 10:36:25 -0000 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.19) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 10:36:25 -0000 Received: from modem-43.europium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.31.43] helo=franz-liszt) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10pUrH-0007H7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:36:24 +0100 Message-ID: <004001beadad$72ac6240$2b1f883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:40:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Jonathan's suggestion (which used, unless I miss your gist, a perfectly >sharp Nomic Scalpel) was to make a high LV less powerful by giving greater >reward for final destinations; this is one way to take the emphasis off of >speed, but I suspect it may result in too many Tokens being thrown around. Too many by whose definition? Some of us are of the opinion that certain kinds of Plastic Token in particular are not numerous enough in the game, though I do believe that Silvers should be rare, and so should Golds (hence my distaste for the Gold Rush which creates an entire stack of them at once.) This relates to another private bugbear of mine: why should Silver Tokens be available from moves? Especially now that we have another kind of Plastic Token. If the simple change were made, changing the "Silver" reward to a "Green" for passing through five interchanges or landing on a five-line interchange, then one could quite happily double the reward for the Station landed on and gain up to three Plastic Tokens per Turn - and without the problem that was mentioned earlier, of being able to get two or three Silver Tokens on one go for landing on Kings Cross (in particular) or Baker Street. Two Greens might not be so much what was desired, and gaining three plastic tokens per turn seems a little more conducive to strategy than two: no longer a case of "oh, this is the only Action I can play", more a case of "right, *which* Action shall I play?" Moving about the centre of the board would then do no more than change the likely colour of the Plastic Token being picked up, not particularly increasing the likelihood of a Player getting a valuable Silver. And the destination would become more important than the length of the move, making high LVs slightly less important while still leaving them desirable for certain things. Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 3 05:05:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 12155 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 12:05:01 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 12:05:01 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 1999 13:05:00 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j5r1c$80uo@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:05:00 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Too many by whose definition? Some of us are of the opinion that certain >kinds of Plastic Token in particular are not numerous enough in the >game, though I do believe that Silvers should be rare, and so should >Golds (hence my distaste for the Gold Rush which creates an entire stack >of them at once.) Well, much of this is mere opinion and personal taste, of course. I think Silvers should be attainable, albeit rarely (there are, after all, only a couple of Stations which grant them), and am continually surprised when people complain about Greens "not being available enough" and start adding other ways to get them. The idea that Greens can only be created by recycling other Tokens is quite, quite elegant, entirely befitting their "indifferent catalyst" status, and the idea of gaining them any other way just seems to be missing the (and I presume Dunx's original, rather than just my interpretative) point. >This relates to another private bugbear of mine: why should Silver >Tokens be available from moves? Especially now that we have another kind >of Plastic Token. If the simple change were made, changing the "Silver" >reward to a "Green" for passing through five interchanges or landing on >a five-line interchange, A mere Green, for all that effort? Even if Recycling were repealed to make Greens rarer, the fact that they're used for potentially useless Actions such as Wilding and Gold Rushing means that they're arguably less precious than Reds or Blacks. Limiting Silvers to (presumably your intent) Manoeuvres and Stacks would make them too difficult to obtain, I suspect. >gaining three plastic tokens per turn seems a little more >conducive to strategy than two: no longer a case of "oh, this is the >only Action I can play", more a case of "right, *which* Action shall I >play?" Reasonable argument were Tokens distributed at random, but they're not; I should hope it was more a case of "Where can I get a third Blue from?" than "Oh, look, three Blues; which Action shall I play?" Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 3 06:10:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18560 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 13:10:47 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 13:10:47 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 1999 14:10:47 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j5usn$82aa@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:10:47 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Greens Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm. Egroups' "Reply" button seems to be broken... > Actually, I was thinking that we might go black/red/blue/green/silver. > That would make Green tokens marginally more available and would get > them flowing so to speak. Hmm. Is "available to anyone who has any Tokens" somehow not available enough, then? I think the recent tweak to Recycling (that you can Recycle a number of Tokens at once) should get Greens into heavier circulation; there's really no need to have any other way of getting them, so far as I can see. >Interestingly, no-one's pointed out that the Recycling action basically >means actions with a Green token are effectively priced at "-2Re/Bk/Bu" >plus whatever their cost is. "-1 any", actually, in light of various amendments. I thought this equivalent costing was pretty much the original point of Green Tokens, though, myself. Although the fact you can now generate as many Greens as you need means that all the Green Actions might as well just say "-X any", since most people will only bother Recycling immediately before spending the Greens. Hmm. Maybe that one-per-Turn maximum wasn't such a bad thing after all. >If we shot the Recycling action, people would have a lot more difficulty >with quite a few actions. Well, yes. Isn't that the point of Green Tokens? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 07:36:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14175 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 14:36:30 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 14:36:30 -0000 Received: from opus (p440-035.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.203.35]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24365 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:36:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <005401beadce$70e86820$1fc78e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:23:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Greens Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan, you seem to forget Green Bock. If greens are only available through Actions, Green Bock is even more deadly. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 3 08:42:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 25503 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 15:38:28 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 15:38:28 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 1999 16:38:28 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j67hk$1dkb@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:38:28 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Greens Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Kevan, you seem to forget Green Bock. > >If greens are only available through Actions, Green Bock is even more deadly. More a case of Bock being questionable, rather than Green Tokens, I think; Gold Tokens are also only available through Actions, after all. The "Chip Off The Old Bock" Proposal allows Token Exchange Actions to be performed without extra cost during Bock, anyway, so this won't be an issue if the Proposal goes through. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 15:53:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15871 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 22:53:03 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 22:53:03 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA11754; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:52:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma011641; Fri, 4 Jun 99 08:52:43 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:52:12 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:52:09 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, June 03, 1999 6:33 PM, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > > > Or, we could simply revert to the old version of the token collection > > > table, which gave additional tokens for the higher numbers: > > > I was never sure why we stopped using it, anyway... > > > > Kevan repealed all the higher interchange bonuses > > ...and at least half of you agreed with me enough to vote FOR, of > course... Sorry, Kevan - didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you or anything. Just trying to be informative. You're absolutely right (although I didn't vote for it. I think it was one of those weeks where I forgot to vote or something). > Well, as commented in other messages, a high LV is such a good thing > already that it seems unfair to give further reward for it - not to > discourage high velocities, merely to stop them giving Players a huge > advantage over their slower neighbours. > > As for people getting huge numbers of Tokens in a single Turn; this is > also something of an issue, although it wasn't the main thrust of my > repeal. Gaining a large number Tokens per Turn means that you can > perform a large number of Actions per Turn; if *everyone* can perform > that many Actions then it just makes the game more intense and > short-lived (fine, I suppose, for Ruttsborough, but not really the other > variants), but since only the faster Players get the bonus, it makes > them more likely to maintain their lead. True. This is why I thought it was a good idea to bring in timed moves - so that people who make longer moves naturally get to make fewer Actions (without spending a blue to extend their move). But this was shot down - I think because people didn't like the fact that you had to pay on a sliding scale for moving. With this discussion in mind, would people accept a proposal to make more complex Moves take more time? The "velocity = more distance in same time" argument doesn't hold too much water in my opinion - LV is a convenient term not a hard and fast rule. The only other real argument I can recall against it was that it was too powerful; that can be edited down. What do people think? Consider: if the problem we're having here is that it's more beneficial to move at high LVs, then we shouldn't stop people moving that fast - we should be adding a downside to moving fast. Longer duration of Move is the best solution I can see. If someone has a better one, then please state or Propose it, but without that I think we're not dealing with the whole problem. > Didn't we discover that the large Token bonuses became quite unbalancing, > during the week or two that we were using them? Memory fails me. Not at all, IMNSHO. It takes four turns to get up to full 'speed', and even then that's all lost if you get Shunted or do a Special Move. After the bonuses above five were dropped, all I did was make sure that I moved through five interchanges and no more. It didn't make me give up choosing complicated routes or putting my LV above five. In this sense limiting the bonuses had no effect. The problem is not moving far per se, the problem is that moving further allows you to make too many Actions (because of the increased token gains). I think the only reasonable way to limit this is to make long moves take more time, thus giving you less time to Act. So what do people think? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 16:26:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2710 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jun 1999 23:26:25 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 23:26:25 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA25051; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:26:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma024963; Fri, 4 Jun 99 09:26:08 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:25:36 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:25:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, June 03, 1999 8:40 PM, Jonathan Ellis [SMTP:jonathan@f...] wrote: > This relates to another private bugbear of mine: why should Silver > Tokens be available from moves? Especially now that we have another kind [snip] > Moving about the centre of the board would then do no more than > change the likely colour of the Plastic Token being picked up, not > particularly increasing the likelihood of a Player getting a valuable > Silver. And the destination would become more important than the length > of the move, making high LVs slightly less important while still leaving > them desirable for certain things. That's a great idea. How about this: Proposal - The Age of Plastic Replace Rule 1.4.20 with the following text: The following table lists the Token Bonus awarded to a Player during eir Token Collection phase. If the Event listed occurred during eir Movement phase, then they receive the Bonus listed against that Event. In the table, is the quotient and is the remainder given when the number of Interchanges the Player passed through (not counting each Interchange more than once) is divided by five, and one is added. In mathematical terms, = ( / 5) and =(( mod 5) + 1). If the number of Interchanges the Player passed through (not counting each Interchange more than once) is less than two, then is zero. +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Event | Token Bonus | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing any Valid Move within a Zone | +1 Bronze | | for which a Zone Pass is carried | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving from or to an Interchange with | +1 Red | | exactly two lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving from or to an Interchange with | +1 Black | | exactly three lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving from or to an Interchange with | +1 Blue | | exactly four lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving from or to an Interchange with | +1 Green | | five or more lines | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | is equal to three | +1 Red | | (2,7,12 Interchanges) | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | is equal to four | +1 Black | | (3,8,13 Interchanges) | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | is equal to five | +1 Blue | | (4,9,14 Interchanges) | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | is equal to one | +1 Green | | (5,10,15 Interchanges) | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | is equal to two | +1 White | | (6,11 Interchanges) | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | is greater than zero | +1 Plastic | | (more than six Interchanges) | Token | | | (any colour) | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing a non-Pass Move which did not | +1 Black | | involve a change of Line | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Playing 'Pass' as eir Move | +1 Plastic | | | Token | | | (any colour) | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ It may look a little complex, but in my mind it solves a couple of problems. Firstly, all the bonuses with the exception of Zone Passes now give only plastic tokens. Secondly, the bonus for moving through lots of interchanges is not really that much larger. Thirdly, it means that if someone happens to want to up the Ruttsborough allowable velocity, the formulas still cope with giving those bonuses. Fourthly, the table's set out to make things relatively easy to read. Anyway, what do you think? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Jonathan David Amery Thu Jun 3 18:28:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9672 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 01:27:49 -0000 Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (131.111.8.70) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 01:27:49 -0000 Received: from jda23 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10pilw-0000z9-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:27:48 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:27:48 +0100 (BST) From: Jonathan David Amery To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Errors-To: amery@b... X-Received: from nowhere for no-one by nobody with nothing; never X-Location: Hermes Organisation: Mathmos Anon. MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Wayper, Paul wrote: > With this discussion in mind, would people accept a proposal to make more > complex Moves take more time? The "velocity = more distance in same time" > argument doesn't hold too much water in my opinion - LV is a convenient term > not a hard and fast rule. The only other real argument I can recall against > it was that it was too powerful; that can be edited down. What do people > think? 5 mins per line change? -- Jonathan Amery. O speak to reassure me, ##### To hasten or control; #######__o O speak, and make me listen, #######'/ Thou Guardian of my soul. - J.E. Bode ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 18:46:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19289 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 01:42:14 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 01:42:14 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA01942; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:42:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma001738; Fri, 4 Jun 99 11:41:51 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:41:20 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:41:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, June 04, 1999 11:28 AM, Jonathan David Amery [SMTP:jda23@h...] wrote: > 5 mins per line change? Certainly makes those hyperlinechange moves more difficult :-) What do you think of 10 minutes per four stations, or some sliding scale with similar intent (longer moves take more time?) Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Thu Jun 3 23:18:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11799 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 06:18:40 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 06:18:40 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA04872 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:23:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:21:22 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This relates to another private bugbear of mine: why should Silver >Tokens be available from moves? Especially now that we have another kind >of Plastic Token. If the simple change were made, changing the "Silver" >reward to a "Green" for passing through five interchanges or landing on >a five-line interchange, then one could quite happily double the reward >for the Station landed on and gain up to three Plastic Tokens per Turn - >and without the problem that was mentioned earlier, of being able to get >two or three Silver Tokens on one go for landing on Kings Cross (in >particular) or Baker Street. Except that there are a large number of Actions that require Silver tokens... and how are you going to get them otherwise? The only other way to get them would be to get a Gold token and make change... and one of the easiest means of getting Golds, i.e. getting two Silvers and cashing them in, would be impossible. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 23:58:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2760 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 06:58:48 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 06:58:48 -0000 Received: from opus (p448-56.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.184]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA14370 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:58:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <013801beae57$acc482a0$68862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:25:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: : :What do you think of 10 minutes per four stations, or some sliding scale :with similar intent (longer moves take more time?) : Let's try it in a variant first. It seems like it would drastically diminish the value of a high LV. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 3 23:58:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2768 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 06:58:49 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 06:58:49 -0000 Received: from opus (p448-56.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.184]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA14385 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:58:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <013901beae57$ad758320$68862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:36:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Jubilee Interchanges? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It looks like we have a small problem: The rules define Interchanges from the map. But the map doesn't acknowledge the Interchanges on Jubilee Line's 'under construction' part. Should we ignore Jubilee (under construction), when counting Lines? Or did I miss something? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri Jun 4 00:59:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1047 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 07:59:03 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 07:59:03 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05939 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:59:02 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26381 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:59:01 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id IAA03867; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:59:00 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906040759.IAA03867@u...> Date: 04 Jun 99 08:57:01 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-537-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 04-Jun-99 07:36 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Jubilee Interchanges? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >The rules define Interchanges from the map. >But the map doesn't acknowledge the Interchanges on Jubilee Line's 'under >construction' part. This is because they're not interchanges yet - it's difficult to justify an Interchange with a line which isn't operating. As and when we move to a later map, then these interchanges will be activated. The non-Interchange status of the Jubilee connections is one reason why Walking was introduced. >Should we ignore Jubilee (under construction), when counting Lines? Yes. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri Jun 4 01:41:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 19830 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 08:41:41 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 08:41:41 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 1999 09:41:42 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j83g6$7mil@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:41:42 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>[Hatching] >>It's not part of :the Line any more, but are they >>able to Move to other Hatched Stations :on that Line? > >The Line Segment stops being a part of the Line, it doesn't disappear. >So a Move along a Hatched Line Segment is, basically, not a Same-Line >Move. Well, yes, all well and good, but how does that affect the actual Move? I may not be able to claim a same-Line bonus for moving between Hatched Stations, but can I actually Move between them? Are they still regarded as being adjacent to one another? I think this needs clarifying. >[automated reminders] >I think that _everybody_ on the list can do it. >Just define an 'Event' in the e-group you want to notify. Oh, the Calendar thing? That might be quite good, then, if it sends automated emails to the list. Would anyone care (or object if I attempted) to test this and see precisely what happens? I've always wondered how useful the Polls would be to a Nomic mailing list, but haven't dabbled for fear of spamming everyone... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri Jun 4 02:16:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1285 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 09:16:29 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 09:16:29 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 1999 10:16:30 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7j85he$htu1@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:16:30 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >True. This is why I thought it was a good idea to bring in timed moves - >so that people who make longer moves naturally get to make fewer Actions >(without spending a blue to extend their move). But this was shot down - >I think because people didn't like the fact that you had to pay on a >sliding scale for moving. I didn't like the complexity of it, myself; having to perform a fiddly bit of maths to work out how much time you had left in your Turn. Although the idea was a good one, the implementation seemed less elegant than it might have been. >With this discussion in mind, would people accept a proposal to make >more complex Moves take more time? The "velocity = more distance in same >time" argument doesn't hold too much water in my opinion - LV is a >convenient term not a hard and fast rule. This is fair enough; it's just hard to change mental gear, when we've always considered Moves to be of a fixed time length, and thus LV to be a literal velocity rather than a Move distance limit. >Consider: if the problem we're having here is that it's more beneficial >to move at high LVs, then we shouldn't stop people moving that fast - we >should be adding a downside to moving fast. Longer duration of Move is >the best solution I can see. If someone has a better one, then please >state or Propose it, but without that I think we're not dealing with the >whole problem. But the issue, unless I've lost track of things, isn't "How can we make high LVs less powerful?" - it's "Let's not make high LVs any more powerful by reproposing the large bonuses for passing more than five Interchanges." I think things are alright as they stand, really. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri Jun 4 03:42:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4020 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 10:42:12 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 10:42:12 -0000 Received: from opus (p416-027.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.219.155]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14115 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:42:10 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01cd01beae76$e2173be0$68862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:26:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :>>[Hatching] :>>It's not part of :the Line any more, but are they :>>able to Move to other Hatched Stations :on that Line? :> :>The Line Segment stops being a part of the Line, it doesn't disappear. :>So a Move along a Hatched Line Segment is, basically, not a Same-Line :>Move. : :Well, yes, all well and good, but how does that affect the actual Move? :I may not be able to claim a same-Line bonus for moving between Hatched :Stations, but can I actually Move between them? Are they still regarded :as being adjacent to one another? I think this needs clarifying. : Yes, on both. Where I, myself, get in doubt is when you Move along the Hatched Line Segment; do you change line? I would say you did not, because they are still on the Line Segment, but the Segment just happens to be part of no Line, though still part of the Underground. So Moving from to is neither Same-Line nor Other-Line. Adjacency (Walking distance) is (if I got it right): neighbours on a Line Segment, same name in two places or special mentioning in the Rules. It is really a bit arbitrary. Especially between Earl's Court and Acton Town and between Baker Street and Wembley Park. :>[automated reminders] :>I think that _everybody_ on the list can do it. :>Just define an 'Event' in the e-group you want to notify. : :Oh, the Calendar thing? That might be quite good, then, if it sends :automated emails to the list. Would anyone care (or object if I :attempted) to test this and see precisely what happens? : :I've always wondered how useful the Polls would be to a Nomic mailing :list, but haven't dabbled for fear of spamming everyone... : I have already defined Tuesday 18:00 as New Nomic Week. It only takes :00, :15, :30 and :45, so 17:59 isn't possible. I also tried to make it send out a reminder 48 hours before. On other egroups-lists, it is quite a low-noise thing. Again, there are restrictions: you can pick a reminder time rather freely within the last 24 hours, but before that it is only in full days. The Polls are not that bad. You should try them. Only problem is you can't do it by e-mail, you have to go to the webpage. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri Jun 4 04:07:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16029 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 11:07:22 -0000 Received: from mail10.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.214) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 11:07:22 -0000 Received: from modem-13.cerium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.28.141] helo=franz-liszt) by mail10.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10prom-0001ja-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:07:21 +0100 Message-ID: <005701beae7a$f9107100$8d1c883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:11:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> This relates to another private bugbear of mine: why should Silver >>Tokens be available from moves? Especially now that we have another kind >>of Plastic Token. >Except that there are a large number of Actions that require Silver >tokens... and how are you going to get them otherwise? The only other way >to get them would be to get a Gold token and make change... and one of the >easiest means of getting Golds, i.e. getting two Silvers and cashing them >in, would be impossible. Erm - Manoeuvres? Careful Token Stacking? I'm not that keen on the idea of cashing smaller-value tokens into larger-value tokens anyway (it used to be that Gold could be converted to Silver or Bronze, but not the other way around: I was happy with this, but it changed during my seven-month absence.) Besides, the current implementation of this makes Bank too much of a focus for the game IMHO. Especially with the fact that Blue Tokens can also be converted to Gold. But I do think that the reward for actually moving should be about the same whatever the length of the move, and whatever the station moved to: hence my suggestion that Plastic Tokens should be the reward, not Silvers. (After all, all the Plastics have their uses - Blue and Green are the hardest to come by, but one might well want a Red or two to perform an offensive action, or the last token for a Bonanza.) High LV is already powerful enough for the player, no need to reward it with a Silver as well just for passing through a certain number of interchanges. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Fri Jun 4 15:20:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24931 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 22:20:29 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 22:20:29 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10q2KC-000LWp-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:20:29 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990604222556.00932d20@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 23:17:45 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Ruleset Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Week 8 updates to the ruleset have been implemented. I haven't split the ruleset yet (as 0.2.3 now allows me to) yet. This will follow. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Fri Jun 4 15:29:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30062 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 22:29:48 -0000 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.39) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 22:29:48 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10q2T8-000DD6-0B for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:29:42 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990604232647.0097bd20@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 23:27:01 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 8 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somewhat after the party, here are my comments on the Week 8 Proposals. I've also included my remarks on other people's comments. > Proposal 767 - Not at All Good for the Environment [Action] Kevan's already deconstructed this Proposal quite effectively so I shan't say much more, except that the modified Bransoning mechanism is a lot safer and more in line with other random events. I still think the whole enterprise is too expensive for the actual benefit gained. > Proposal 768 - Game States rewrite [Multiple] > -New Rule: > Rule 1.8.0: A Game may be in one or more Game States. These should be > listed in a section on the Game State Document: if there is not room to > enter a Game State into the relevant area, enough Game States should be > deleted from the start of the line to make room for it. I'm sorry, but I think this idea of deleting Game States from the box if the line is full is atrocious. It encourages the tactic of declaring additional Game States to push out one at the head of the queue. Not, in fact, that the wording given even specifies that the Game States box operates as a queue. Jonathan has asserted that this is how the Disruptions box works: that simply isn't true. The Station Damage box which Disruptions replaced did use such a mechanism, but Disruptions does not. > Proposal 769 - Token Stacking [Amendment] I don't agree with this proposal - most of it is fairly innoccuous, but then... > There may be no more than three Stacks in each Quadrant So what you're really saying is that there can't be more than twelve stacks (since tokens can only be explicitly placed in Quadrant 0, they are rarely created). Isn't this exactly where we were a couple of Weeks ago? > If a Station contains another entity which is listed in the Token > Stack table (Suspect Packages, Flags, the Podume of Infinite Darkness > etc.) then no Tokens may be placed there at all. However, this other > item does not count against the number of Stacks that may coexist. I can't see the logic behind this one at all - if a Station is big enough for a Token Stack and a Piece to co-exist, why prevent other objects being present? > Proposal 770 - Loop the Loop [Multiple] I like some of the taxonomy, but I'm not comfortable with the changes in wording which Kevan has already pointed out. > Proposal 771 - Game into Boris... [Enactment] I'm sorry - this is way, way too powerful and far far too cheap. Jonathan's explanation of precisely why this is such a nasty game state convinces all the more strongly to vote against. > Proposal 773 - Humpty Dumpty Loop [Enactment] Amusing loop, but the termination condition is too difficult: charge can be a very large number or negative, which means the chances of having LV an charge the same are pretty slight. Could someone run a quick simulation of progress between these stations to see how charge can vary over time? > Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] I like the idea, but... I can't quite see the point. In particular, many of the Actions fingered for having a White cost aren't defensive. > Proposal 775 - Return of the Son of the Revenge of the Clever Bear [Amendment] Yes, very pleasing. A Clever Bear indeed. > Proposal 776 - Hatcheries [Action] Again, Kevan has preempted most of my comments. One point though - > Rule 1.8.x - Hatcheries > Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment not to > be considered part of the Line in question for a period of one Round. > A Hatched Line Segment is indicated in Disruptions [...] This is wrong. The Disruptions box is for effects which have an indefinite duration, whereas Hatching is definied as having a duration of one Round. > Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] Do I not like this... this is the smart bomb (in the Defender sense) of MorNomic Actions. This just has too broad an effect: global changes to Game State are fair enough, because they're debilitating in a continuous sense, and obviously targeting individual players is fine and all part of the game - but this just blows away the whole game state without any defense at all. And all for a single Gold Token? No... far, far too scary. > Proposal 778 - Fair Warning [Enactment] It's the selective part of this Proposal which gets me - I agree with the sentiment, but I'll be voting against this and setting up an automatic notification to the list instead. The rest seem fair enough to me - and I will add a link to the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia from the index page too, since it seems to e seeing so much use at the moment. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Fri Jun 4 16:08:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17782 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 23:08:15 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 23:08:15 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10q34Q-000OFK-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:08:15 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990604235036.00980c00@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:05:02 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 11:41 04/06/99 +1000, you wrote: >> 5 mins per line change? > >Certainly makes those hyperlinechange moves more difficult :-) > >What do you think of 10 minutes per four stations, or some sliding scale >with similar intent (longer moves take more time?) I'd rather stick with the simple linear formula, since you can remember it more easily. Personally, I think that if you're going to penalise complicated moves you're better doing so by this method than by making moves covering more distance take longer. And such a simple formula as '5 mins per line change' is a doddle to keep track of. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Fri Jun 4 16:08:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17755 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 23:08:13 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 23:08:13 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10q34O-000OF4-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:08:13 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990604235708.00985c30@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:04:51 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay wrote: >Proposal - The Age of Plastic > >Replace Rule 1.4.20 with the following text: > >The following table lists the Token Bonus awarded to a Player during eir >Token Collection phase. [...] >It may look a little complex [...] You're not wrong! To be honest, the reason I voted for the simplifcation of the token table was that the rewards at higher interchange counts were non-incremental, strange, and difficult to remember. I would vote against Age of Plastic for the same reason. I actually agree with Kevan that the current situation is pretty much OK, but if we're going to up the rewards for larger interchange counts can we keep them linear? Or even just straight additive - for the first five interchanges passed through you get a Silver, then take five off the interchange count and look the number up again. So six interchanges would get the same as five (ie one Silver), seven interchanges would get a Silver and a Red, and so on. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Fri Jun 4 16:08:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17868 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jun 1999 23:08:27 -0000 Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.41) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 23:08:26 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10q34b-000OG0-0C for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:08:26 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990604233026.00947a10@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:05:43 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Fosdyke Notation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 17:28 02/06/99 +1000, PaulWay wrote: >I'd love to start putting Fosdyke codes in for Actions, but the logical >place for them is in the table of 1.7.2 and there's simply no longer enough >room for that to fit in eighty characters AFAICS. The lack of room in the table is actually one of the things which stopped me putting this in as a suggestion in the original Proposal. >The options I can see >are: > >* Make the table a separate Volume in HTML format that is kept as a table on >the MorNomic pages. Hmm... no. Too hard to maintain (not so much the separate volume part, more the different file format business) >* Squeeze the columns up a little for the extra characters (four would be >average). This is better. I think we could probably save a lot of space by making the Action descriptions shorter. There doesn't seem to be any real need for the table to contain the precise syntax, just sufficient to identify the Action. For instance - [Late Arrival from ] could be just [Late Arrival] [Claiming a Token from ] could be [Claiming Token] Also, do we really need the square brackets in the Action table? They add no value - square brackets delimit an Action in the GSD, but by definition any text in that column is an Action. >* Put them in the Rule itself. >On the whole I'm rather keen on the idea that each Action Rule includes the >Action Table entry, as this is a much neater way of specifying what it >costs, what it gains, what restrictions are placed on it and so forth. But >it's always a little inconvenient to read the table for a rule, then page >down to the rule, then have to page up to find out how long it takes or >whether it's Neutral, Pre or Post. Maybe a list format like: > >[Shunting to ] >Phase: Postmove >Dur: 0:10 >Cost: -1Re >FR: Player {S0,L0} , Player {L0,S=LV} I don't have a problem with this - there is the issue with duplication, though. One of the reasons for putting the token costs into the table (and only the table) in the first place was to make the table the definitive reference and thus to minimise the amount that has to be edited when a cost is to change. >Incidentally, {L0,S=LV} may be easier to interpret than L0S=LV (or even >S=LVL0). Fix? It is a lot easier to read, isn't it? Hmm... -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Jun 4 22:25:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22915 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 05:25:56 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 05:25:56 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA06003 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:31:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:28:37 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Or even just straight additive - for the first five interchanges passed through >you get a Silver, then take five off the interchange count and look the number >up again. > >So six interchanges would get the same as five (ie one Silver), seven >interchanges would get a Silver and a Red, and so on. Very sensible... I'd vote for that one. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 5 00:50:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31560 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 07:50:37 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 07:50:37 -0000 Received: from opus (p415-114.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.219.114]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA24982 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:50:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008301beaf28$1392e820$72db52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:53:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Fosdyke Notation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: : :>* Squeeze the columns up a little for the extra characters (four would be :>average). : :This is better. I think we could probably save a lot of space by making the :Action descriptions shorter. There doesn't seem to be any real need for the :table to contain the precise syntax, just sufficient to identify the Action. : :For instance - :[Late Arrival from ] could be just [Late Arrival] :[Claiming a Token from ] could be [Claiming Token] : That would limt the GSD's usefulness in reconstructing the game, I guess. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 5 00:50:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31565 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 07:50:39 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 07:50:39 -0000 Received: from opus (p415-114.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.219.114]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25006 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:50:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008501beaf28$14e11300$72db52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:45:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Being a Pest Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I withdraw all my proposals from this week. Proposal 767 - Not at All Good for the Environment [Action] Too expensive. Should probably be split in two. Proposal 773 - Humpty Dumpty Loop [Enactment] This is the Charge variation: Kingsbury (-23) Queensway (+46) Prince Regent (-37) Earl's Court (+6) Barons Court (-20) Knightsbridge (+28) [Kingsbury] I suspect it is hard to hit ones LV with this. Proposal 774 - A Whiter Shade of Pale... [Multiple] Gotta be rethought. Proposal 776 - Hatcheries [Action] Needs detailing. Proposal 777 - Lyttleton Announcement [Action] Too powerful. Expect some of the props to resurface. Thanks for the analyses, anyway. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sat Jun 5 01:01:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1805 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 08:01:31 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 08:01:31 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id EAA08233 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 04:06:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 04:04:13 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Fosdyke Notation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Dunx wrote: >: >:>* Squeeze the columns up a little for the extra characters (four would be >:>average). >: >:This is better. I think we could probably save a lot of space by making the >:Action descriptions shorter. There doesn't seem to be any real need for the >:table to contain the precise syntax, just sufficient to identify the >Action. >: >:For instance - >:[Late Arrival from ] could be just [Late Arrival] >:[Claiming a Token from ] could be [Claiming Token] >: > > >That would limt the GSD's usefulness in reconstructing the game, I guess. I'm guessing that we'd still use the full versions for the GSD; the shorter forms would be just for the Action Table --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 5 02:36:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21433 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 09:36:01 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 09:36:01 -0000 Received: from opus (p409-032.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.216.32]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15124 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:36:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <012e01beaf36$cd8828e0$72db52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:24:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Riff wrote: (quoting Dunx) :> :>Or even just straight additive - for the first five interchanges passed through :>you get a Silver, then take five off the interchange count and look the number :>up again. :> :>So six interchanges would get the same as five (ie one Silver), seven :>interchanges would get a Silver and a Red, and so on. : :Very sensible... I'd vote for that one. : Or one Puce less than the number of Interchanges? ;-) Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 5 07:14:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8344 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 14:14:26 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 14:14:26 -0000 Received: from opus (p443-50.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.50]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14277 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:14:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <007201beaf5d$b1b98f60$32802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:14:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: New GSD format Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just converted 3 GSDs to the new format. Please check if I forgot something. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 5 10:24:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27528 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 17:24:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 17:24:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p436-003.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.201.3]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01363 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 19:24:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <012001beaf78$2f45ea40$32802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:31:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: MN-R: Game 15 Game State Document Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: :> Ole : [Home: West Brompton] Pass (West Brompton) :> { :> Comment: :> :> I assume I stay at WB when passing. : :Squinting at the rules, I'm not so sure that you do; the "Home:" Action only permits a Special Move to your new Home Station, and it's the Move itself that brings you onto the board. Perhaps this should be amended so that your Piece is brought into existence at that point when you play the Action, so that the Move only becomes for the sake of form. : :Incidentally, this highlights a horrible danger in this Week's Proposal to reset peoples' Home Stations; you can simply pick a Home that's got something nice at it (another Player's Hoarded Tokens, perhaps, or a Flag or Gold Stack) and Home straight there. : :Mind you, the latter examples of a peril of joining new Games; it'd be rather unbalancing if a new Player joined a Game and settled himself on top of a Gold Token Stack. Hmm. Perhaps you should only be able to choose empty Stations, or something... : Well, then. Is it just Pass (off the board)? As to the second paragraph, I have withdrawn that very proposal, and it will do something less drastic when I put it forward next time. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 5 11:14:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15821 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jun 1999 18:14:41 -0000 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.212) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 1999 18:14:41 -0000 Received: from modem-17.name7.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.163.17] helo=my) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10qKxs-0007zT-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 19:14:40 +0100 Message-ID: <000301beaf7f$f60e6b00$11a3883e@my> From: "Kevan Davis" To: Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 19:17:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Another Mornington Crescent card game Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been musing a bit lately about a slightly different slant on my varied and rabid ideas for a real-life Crescent variant; anyone interested might like to skim through the initial sketchings I've put up on my Web page:- http://members.xoom.com/asabove/crescard.txt Let me know what you might think. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 03:04:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20533 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 10:02:57 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 10:02:57 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10qZlX-000FQD-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:02:56 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990606105816.00911de0@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:00:10 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Fosdyke Notation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 04:04 05/06/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Dunx wrote: >>: >>:>* Squeeze the columns up a little for the extra characters (four would be >>:>average). >>: >>:This is better. I think we could probably save a lot of space by making the >>:Action descriptions shorter. There doesn't seem to be any real need for the >>:table to contain the precise syntax, just sufficient to identify the >>Action. >>: >>:For instance - >>:[Late Arrival from ] could be just [Late Arrival] >>:[Claiming a Token from ] could be [Claiming Token] >>: >> >> >>That would limt the GSD's usefulness in reconstructing the game, I guess. > >I'm guessing that we'd still use the full versions for the GSD; the shorter >forms would be just for the Action Table Spot on. Actually using the Actions requires the full form described in a Rule, but we could get away with a much more minimalist description in the Action table. Either that, or we could split Action syntax across multiple lines; that's already had to be done in many cases. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 03:15:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23061 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 10:15:44 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 10:15:44 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10qZxv-000FyG-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:15:44 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990606111147.0097aa00@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:12:54 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <008501beaf28$14e11300$72db52c3@opus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Being a Pest Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote: >I withdraw all my proposals from this week. Fairly obviously, this meas that all Votes received for these Proposals will be discarded. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 03:19:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24025 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 10:19:32 -0000 Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.20) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 10:19:32 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10qa1b-000G72-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:19:31 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990606111324.0097f100@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:16:46 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <012001beaf78$2f45ea40$32802fc3@opus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: MN-R: Game 15 Game State Document Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote: >Kevan wrote: > >:> Ole : [Home: West Brompton] Pass (West Brompton) >:> { >:> Comment: >:> >:> I assume I stay at WB when passing. >: >:Squinting at the rules, I'm not so sure that you do; the "Home:" Action >only permits a Special Move to your new Home Station, and it's the Move >itself that brings you onto the board. Perhaps this should be amended so >that your Piece is brought into existence at that point when you play the >Action, so that the Move only becomes for the sake of form. This is probably a good idea, since otherwise the Dollis Hill loop would presumably override the Special Move to the Home Station. >:Mind you, the latter examples of a peril of joining new Games; it'd be >rather unbalancing if a new Player joined a Game and settled himself on top >of a Gold Token Stack. Hmm. Perhaps you should only be able to choose empty >Stations, or something... What, like joining Game 11 and Homing to Stonebridge Park? Ole again: >Well, then. Is it just Pass (off the board)? No - the usual form is: Player : [Home: ] () This both creates your Piece and Moves it to your Home Station. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jun 6 14:32:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12082 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 21:32:53 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 21:32:53 -0000 Received: from opus (p450-14.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.142]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA01712 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:32:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <024a01beb064$1abc0360$c2c28e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:38:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: [l-nomic-d] Reminder: End of Nomic Week Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you say? The wording may need to be changed, but do you find the feaure intrusive = or somesuch? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 15:00:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22776 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 22:00:13 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 22:00:13 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10qkxd-0003CG-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:00:09 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990606225553.00977440@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 22:57:23 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <024a01beb064$1abc0360$c2c28e81@opus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: [l-nomic-d] Reminder: End of Nomic Week Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote: >What do you say? > >The wording may need to be changed, but do you find the feaure intrusive or >somesuch? I think the wording definitely needs work ("The Nomic Week has just ended" on Sunday!?) but I think it's a useful message. Thanks, chap. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jun 6 16:16:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22021 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 23:16:01 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 23:16:01 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA20538; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:15:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma020395; Mon, 7 Jun 99 09:15:45 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:15:10 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:15:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, June 05, 1999 9:05 AM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@l...] wrote: > PaulWay wrote: > >It may look a little complex [...] > > You're not wrong! > > To be honest, the reason I voted for the simplifcation of the token table > was that the rewards at higher interchange counts were non-incremental, > strange, and difficult to remember. I would vote against Age of Plastic > for the same reason. But... > Or even just straight additive - for the first five interchanges passed > through you get a Silver, then take five off the interchange count and > look the number up again. But this is pretty much exactly how my Age of Plastic table works! It's just Modulo arithmetic - after five Interchanges you get a plastic token of your choice and you just subtract five (or ten in the case of high-LV Ruttsborough games). Or am I missing your point, Dunx? have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jun 6 16:19:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23368 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jun 1999 23:19:42 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 23:19:42 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA22785; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:19:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma022625; Mon, 7 Jun 99 09:19:18 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:18:43 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:18:40 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, June 05, 1999 9:05 AM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@l...] wrote: > At 11:41 04/06/99 +1000, you wrote: > >What do you think of 10 minutes per four stations, or some sliding scale > >with similar intent (longer moves take more time?) > > I'd rather stick with the simple linear formula, since you can remember > it more easily. > > Personally, I think that if you're going to penalise complicated moves > you're better doing so by this method than by making moves covering more > distance take longer. And such a simple formula as '5 mins per line change' > is a doddle to keep track of. So what you're saying is that a proposal for: * ten minutes per four stations or part thereof, * five minutes per line change would be totally acceptable? I'll do it. Might as well see if I can get a negative score with all my unlikeable proposals :-) Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jun 6 21:20:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4074 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 04:20:37 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 04:20:37 -0000 Received: from opus (p438-018.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.202.18]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA15925 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 06:20:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00b401beb09d$10ed6520$12ca8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 06:19:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Fine Tuning Ayto-Warning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have now created two weekly events. One is Tue 1800 'End of Nomic Week' The other in Mon 0600 'Get Your Votes Ready' But the Time Zone in 'unknown' - and I cannot change that. I guess the list-owner (Dunx? Kevan?) has to do it. Use the 'calendar' = tab and find London (scroll, scroll, scroll). Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 22:36:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2573 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 05:36:00 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 05:36:00 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10qs4l-000Ahc-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 05:36:00 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990607062907.0097ade0@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 06:32:58 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 09:15 07/06/99 +1000, you wrote: >On Saturday, June 05, 1999 9:05 AM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@l...] >wrote: >> PaulWay wrote: >> >It may look a little complex [...] >> >> You're not wrong! >> >> To be honest, the reason I voted for the simplifcation of the token table >> was that the rewards at higher interchange counts were non-incremental, >> strange, and difficult to remember. I would vote against Age of Plastic >> for the same reason. > >But... > >> Or even just straight additive - for the first five interchanges passed >> through you get a Silver, then take five off the interchange count and >> look the number up again. > >But this is pretty much exactly how my Age of Plastic table works! It's >just Modulo arithmetic - after five Interchanges you get a plastic token of >your choice and you just subtract five (or ten in the case of high-LV >Ruttsborough games). OK, I hadn't realised that. I think the way Age of Plastic is written obscures the ease of use of the table. >Or am I missing your point, Dunx? My point really is that I wouldn't actually vote for my suggestion either. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 22:38:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4012 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 05:38:46 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 05:38:46 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10qs7R-000B1D-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 05:38:45 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990607063334.00975a00@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 06:35:58 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 09:18 07/06/99 +1000, you wrote: >On Saturday, June 05, 1999 9:05 AM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@l...] >wrote: >> At 11:41 04/06/99 +1000, you wrote: >> >What do you think of 10 minutes per four stations, or some sliding scale >> >with similar intent (longer moves take more time?) >> >> I'd rather stick with the simple linear formula, since you can remember >> it more easily. >> >> Personally, I think that if you're going to penalise complicated moves >> you're better doing so by this method than by making moves covering more >> distance take longer. And such a simple formula as '5 mins per line >change' >> is a doddle to keep track of. > >So what you're saying is that a proposal for: >* ten minutes per four stations or part thereof, >* five minutes per line change >would be totally acceptable? I'll do it. Might as well see if I can get a >negative score with all my unlikeable proposals :-) I'm happy enough with the form, but not with the purpose. I still don't think that a move should take longer because it passes through more stations. In other words: - five minutes per line change: yes. - ten minutes per four stations: no. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Sun Jun 6 22:42:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5595 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 05:42:24 -0000 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.38) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 05:42:24 -0000 Received: from [158.152.31.180] (helo=default) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10qsAx-000BwQ-0A for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 05:42:24 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990607063818.0091daf0@p...> X-Sender: lazarus@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 06:39:37 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <00b401beb09d$10ed6520$12ca8e81@opus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Fine Tuning Ayto-Warning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 06:19 07/06/99 +0200, you wrote: >I have now created two weekly events. > >One is Tue 1800 'End of Nomic Week' >The other in Mon 0600 'Get Your Votes Ready' Cracking. >But the Time Zone in 'unknown' - and I cannot change that. >I guess the list-owner (Dunx? Kevan?) has to do it. Use the 'calendar' tab >and find London (scroll, scroll, scroll). 'Tis done. As it happens, the default time zone is 'Universal', which wouldn't have been far off anyway. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jun 6 23:40:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26913 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 06:40:20 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 06:40:20 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA17761; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:40:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma017608; Mon, 7 Jun 99 16:39:56 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:39:21 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:39:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, June 07, 1999 3:33 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@l...] wrote: > At 09:15 07/06/99 +1000, you wrote: > >But this is pretty much exactly how my Age of Plastic table works! It's > >just Modulo arithmetic - after five Interchanges you get a plastic token > >of your choice and you just subtract five (or ten in the case of high-LV > >Ruttsborough games). > > OK, I hadn't realised that. I think the way Age of Plastic is written > obscures the ease of use of the table. Well, once I started looking at wordings I had to express it precisely, which is why you get the formula. I also included the number of interchanges in the table, and hopefully the pattern would have been obvious from that. *shrugs* It seems to be very unpopular, though. > My point really is that I wouldn't actually vote for my suggestion either. Then what would you vote for? Is the current state really working? Opinions. I'm full of them. :-) Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon Jun 7 03:09:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7597 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 10:08:52 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 10:08:52 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02110 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:08:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20068 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:08:42 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id LAA21950; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:08:40 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906071008.LAA21950@u...> Date: 07 Jun 99 11:06:30 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-566-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 07-Jun-99 07:39 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Token quantity discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PaulWay wrote: >> My point really is that I wouldn't actually vote for my suggestion either. >Then what would you vote for? Is the current state really working? I think it is, yes. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon Jun 7 05:24:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2082 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jun 1999 12:24:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 12:24:07 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16557 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:24:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21051 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:24:01 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id NAA00329; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:24:00 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906071224.NAA00329@u...> Date: 07 Jun 99 13:22:04 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Mail Addresses and Archaeology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: I have a couple of announcements with regard to email addresses, and an archaeological footnote. First of all, as of the beginning of Week 9 my Speaker mail contact address will change from my Demon account to - speaker@d... All Votes, Proposals, EPs, and other bits and bobs should be sent to that address from Week 9 onwards (you can use it now, if you like, but the formal= chageover isn't until Week 9). I shall update the MN page accordingly when I do the rest of the Week End bizzo. As it happens, I'll also be changing over to playing from dunx@d..., but= that has less of an impact so isn't really worth announcing per se. Secondly, I'm going to stop playing from this Oracle address (at least for the foreseeable future). This will also be effective from the beginning of Week 9. The observant amongst you will have noticed that I've not been terribly responsive of late in any case, so I doubt that there will be much difference. However, if anyone feels that this is going to place an unreasonable burden on my Speakership then please say. Private email sent here will obviously be responded to as time permits. The archaeological element to the message is that I was sorting through some= old papers over the weekend and uncovered a printout of the Week 7 ruleset (from the days before Years). Would anyone be interested? It actually has some notes on it from when I was trying to put together Actions... -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jun 8 13:35:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 706 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Jun 1999 20:35:02 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 1999 20:35:02 -0000 Received: from opus (p447-101.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.101]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA26512 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:35:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00e701beb1ee$53ee1fc0$bfca8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:11:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Another Mornington Crescent card game Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable :Let me know what you might think. Very nice. I have been away from CCGs the last couple of years, so the = CCG environment might have changed, but having both map _and_ cards = might be the downfall of the game. MCCCG... :-) Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Tue Jun 8 13:54:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 14134 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Jun 1999 20:53:52 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 1999 20:53:52 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Jun 1999 21:53:53 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7jjvt1$9oes@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 20:53:53 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <00e701beb1ee$53ee1fc0$bfca8e81@opus> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Another Mornington Crescent card game Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > :Let me know what you might think. > > Very nice. I have been away from CCGs the last couple of years, > so the CCG environment might have changed, but having both map > _and_ cards might be the downfall of the game. Such has been the reason I've shied away from a Map-based game before; easily the best thing in the world about simple collectable-card-games is their ability to be played whilst waiting for trains and whatever. Lack of component parts makes them ludicrously easy to play anywhere and anywhen, as well as making them easily playable through unexpected media (I once managed a particularly good game of Magic in a telephone box). I've been wrestling with the idea of a purely card-based Crescent for a while, and have a couple of prototypes lying around, but they're not particularly satisfying. You *need*, of course, a lot of Station cards for it to be proper Crescent, which doesn't leave too much room for other types of card. It also becomes very weird when the game becomes detached from the structure of the Map, particularly if Players have a deck each and choose which Stations they have available - same-Station Actions become near-pointless, possibly even same-Liners, and it's very hard to make the game decently confrontational; the prototype I attempted was depressingly like Mythos - both Players faff around doing clever things to help them win, then one of them wins. Interaction is fairly minimal and random, and not particularly gripping. I see this incarnation of the CCG more as being a board game that happens to use cards; in a particularly bizarre sort of way, it's the triple-headed mutant offspring of The London Game (which I think I 'reviewed' when I bought it at the London Transport Museum last year; I wonder if an eGroups search will find it?). Ole's is the only response I've had to the thing, anyway. If anyone's interested, the Web page (http://members.xoom.com/asabove/crescard.txt) now has a couple of example decks. I'll start an eGroups list for it if anyone's brave enough to say anything else. Topdecking a Spoon Clamp, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Tue Jun 8 15:13:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29032 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Jun 1999 22:04:18 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 1999 22:04:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 11867 invoked by uid 85); 8 Jun 1999 22:03:31 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 1999 22:03:31 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990608225218.0097fc30@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 22:59:57 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <7jjvt1$9oes@eGroups.com> References: <00e701beb1ee$53ee1fc0$bfca8e81@opus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Another Mornington Crescent card game Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 20:53 08/06/99 +0000, you wrote: >> :Let me know what you might think. Apologies for not replying before - usual feeble excuses apply. I haven't finished reading through the various cards, but it seems like a very wel thought through set of mechanics. Not having played any CCG games at all (indeed, I wasn't even aware that each player had their own deck in M:TG) it's fairly novel, but I will be following the development of this variant very closely. Extremely interesting. Good points: - constant LV - only one kind of token Not-sure points: - the buzz cards - pigeons More comments when I've finished reading, although I would like to say that I think the board is a sufficient differentiator to make it worth trying out in play. The main issue (as ever) is having a big enough board to put tokens onto - having tried token play on an LU map on the February Pilgrimage, I can report that Minstrels and Smarties are too big. >Ole's is the only response I've had to the thing, anyway. If anyone's >interested, the Web page (http://members.xoom.com/asabove/crescard.txt) now >has a couple of example decks. I'll start an eGroups list for it if anyone's >brave enough to say anything else. I'll stick my hand up here, I think. Ideal fodder for a Pilgrimage or other get together, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jun 8 16:46:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28082 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Jun 1999 23:46:17 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 1999 23:46:17 -0000 Received: from opus (p440-008.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.203.8]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA12357 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 01:46:15 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01f701beb209$07c8c300$bfca8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 01:40:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: MC CCG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan wrote: :I've been wrestling with the idea of a purely card-based Crescent for a = while, and have a couple of prototypes lying around, but they're not = particularly satisfying. You *need*, of course, a lot of Station cards = for it to be proper Crescent, which doesn't leave too much room for = other types of card.=20 The cards could be Station _and_ something else, with the Station being = colour-coded (line(s), zone(s)), defining the possible next play. It also becomes very weird when the game becomes detached from the = structure of the Map, particularly if Players have a deck each and = choose which Stations they have available - same-Station Actions become = near-pointless, possibly even same-Liners, and it's very hard to make = the game decently confrontational; The confrontationality could be helped by varying rarity, and by making = choices about which actions to couple with which stations.=20 the prototype I attempted was depressingly like Mythos - both Players = faff around doing clever things to help them win, then one of them wins. = Interaction is fairly minimal and random, and not particularly gripping. My main gripe about Mythos is the lack of logic. Why do _my_ Byakhees = attack _your_ Investigator? X-Files is better at explaining the crossing = of interests. : :Ole's is the only response I've had to the thing, anyway. If anyone's = interested, the Web page (http://members.xoom.com/asabove/crescard.txt) = now has a couple of example decks. I'll start an eGroups list for it if = anyone's brave enough to say anything else. : That could be fun. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 8 17:07:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6724 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 00:06:51 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:06:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 29201 invoked by uid 85); 9 Jun 1999 00:06:52 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:06:52 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990609005933.009a18b0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 01:03:21 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Ruleset Tweaks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: A couple of ruleset tweaks - 1. the HTML ruleset has been retired. It was too obsolete to be useful, and was not going to be updated any time soon. 2. the ASCII ruleset has been split. This is an experimental split at the moment, but have a look at the structure I've applied and let me know what you think. I'm intending to make this multi-file form the master as of Week 10 (ie next Week) so if you have any objections, now would be a good time to air them. Cheers. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 8 17:07:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6760 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 00:06:55 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:06:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 29228 invoked by uid 85); 9 Jun 1999 00:06:56 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:06:56 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990609005656.0099c700@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 01:03:27 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: New Speaker Mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: As previously mentioned, the email address for sending messages to the Speaker is now speaker@d... Thanks. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 8 17:07:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6965 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 00:07:11 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:07:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 29351 invoked by uid 85); 9 Jun 1999 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:07:06 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990609000636.00996db0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 01:04:11 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 9 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Nine ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 784 - Holding Stations [Multiple] Amend Rule 1.14.3 (Token Dropping) such that its final paragraph reads thus: "A Player may not place a Token on a Stack if it already has six Tokens in it, unless the Stack is at Mornington Crescent, Seven Sisters or Euston." Amend Rule 1.10.1 (A Shunting We Will Go) such that this paragraph: "Stacks of Tokens may be Shunted as though they were Players. This is performed in the usual way; the Name of the Stack being 'Token Stack'. It is illegal to shunt Token Stacks to Stations which already have Token Stacks on them." reads thus: "Stacks of Tokens may be Shunted as though they were Players. This is performed in the usual way; the Name of the Stack being 'Token Stack'. It is illegal to shunt Token Stacks to Stations which already have Token Stacks on them. A Token Stack of more than 6 Tokens can not be Shunted." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 785 - Turner's Declension [Action] Rule 1.7.x - Turner's Declension If a Player's Line Velocity is six or more, e may perform a Turner's Declension via the pre-Move Action of "[Declension]"; this permits em to make a Special Move to any Declensable Station. A Station is said to be Declensable, if it has a Token Stack, and if that Token Stack has one less Token than the Stack at the Player's current Piece location. Multiple Declensions can be performed in succession. The Actioning Player receives the bottom Token of each Token Stack so moved to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Declension to ] Pre 1.7.x varies {Comment: Thank You to Hugo Rune.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 786 - More better unique [Amendment] Make the Actions [Attracting], [Busking], [Catching Pigeon], [Dead-End Shunting to ], [Freeming ], [Greening ], [Knidding ], [Magno-Clamping ], [Narging ], and [Toffing ] Singular Actions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 787 - Alchemy [Enactment, Ruttsborough] New Rule 2.4.x - Alchemy If a Player Shunts a Token Stack to a Station occupied by another Token Stack, e may perform the Action "[Alchemy]". When Alchemy is performed, the Tokens of the two Token Stacks merge on each level of the Stacks, bottom Token with bottom Token, second Token with seconnd Token and so on. If the merged Tokens are identical, they become a Gold Token. If the merged Tokens are not identical, they become the Token alphabetically right after the un-Shunted Token. If the merged Token Stacks are of uneven height, the surplus Tokens are unaffected. For the purpose of this Rule, the alphabetical list of Tokens is considered a loop, with the first kind of Token coming immediately after the last. { Comment: Today (June 4), the Tokens available are: Bk-Bu-Br-Go-Gr-Re-Si So if ReGrReReReRe was Shunted to BkBkBkGrBr, and Alchemy performed, the resulting Token Stack would be: BuBuBuReGoRe. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 788 - Speed Crazy [Action] New Rule 1.8.x - Speed Crazy A Player may perform the Action of "[Speed Craze]" to put such a Craze into effect. While a Speed Craze is in effect, the Action [LV-X] is Invalid, unless the Player taking eir Turn has performed a "[Craze Sidestep]" Action during that Turn. A Player may perform the Action of "[Terminating Craze]" to end a Speed Craze, provided that eir piece is situated at a High or Hill Station and eir LV is 10. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Speed Craze] Pre 1.8.x -3 Gr [Craze Sidestep] Pre 1.8.x -3 Bk [Terminating Craze] Post 1.8.x {Comment: This does not affect the [Radio Clamp LV-X] Action. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 789 - And the Smell of It... [Action] New Rule 1.7.x - And the Smell of It... A Player may perform a Pre-Move Action of "[Taxiplane to ]", where is defined as an Airport Interchange, provided e is at an Airport Interchange. When a Player performs the Action "[Taxiplane to ]", eir LV is set to zero, and a Special Move to is allowed. Insert in Action Table ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Taxiplane to ] Pre 1.7.x -1 Gr -1 Bk ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 790 - These Tight Skirts Slow Me Down [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.13.3 (Carol Vorderman's Revenge) to: The Movement of the Player's Piece shall have a duration of ten minutes of Game Time for every four stations (or part thereof) moved through plus five minutes for every change of Line. In mathematical terms (divisions being rounded down): Duration = ((Stations / 4) + 1) * 10 + (Line_Changes) * 5 For instance, a move from Lambeth North to Paddington would have a duration of ((9/4)+1)*10 = (2+1)*10 = 30 minutes if moving on the Bakerloo, and ((7/4)+1)*10 + (2)*5 = (1+1)*10 + 10 = 30 minutes if moving via the Jubilee (changing at Charing Cross) and Circle (changing at Baker Street). Actions have a duration of ten minutes of Game Time unless otherwise specified. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 791 - UnderfFlourished [Multiple] { Reproposing the fFrobisher fFlourish, this time leaving Golds untouched and distributing Tokens a little more evenly. } 1. The fFrobisher fFlourish [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [fFrobisher fFlourish] Neut 1.7.x -5 Bu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action of "[fFrobisher fFlourish]" to redistribute all the Tokens currently being carried by Players. After submitting a Turn containing this Action, the Actioning Player should roll six dice, each with a number of sides equal to the number of Active Players in the Game. E must then perform the following calculations and post a summary of their results to the relevant Game Lounge. Firstly, all Players lose all of their non-Gold Tokens; these are combined in a Pool. Each die roll should then be converted to a Player's name, according to their position in the Playing Order (ignoring Inactive Players). For example, a die roll of three indicates the third Active Player in the Player Order. The following table is then referenced to determine what share of the Tokens from the Pool are given to each Player. "1" indicates that the Player receives a quarter (rounded down) of the relevantly-coloured Tokens from the pool, and "r" indicates that the Player receives any Tokens left over of that colour, after the rest have been distributed. +------------------+-------------------+ | Die | Bk Bu Br Gr Re Si | +------------------+-------------------+ | First | 1 1 1 1 r 0 | | Second | 0 1 1 1 1 r | | Third | r 0 1 1 1 1 | | Fourth | 1 r 0 1 1 1 | | Fifth | 1 1 r 0 1 1 | | Sixth | 1 1 1 r 0 1 | +------------------+-------------------+ When the next Player takes eir Turn, e should - at the start of eir Turn - update the GSD to reflect the Token redistribution of the fFlourish. 2. Never Say Die [Amendment] To the end of Rule 0.1.3 (The Only Way To Die), add:- If a Player is required to make a die roll after eir Turn, that Player's Turn is not considered to be complete until the roll is made; an incomplete Turn may be timed out as if it had not been made. If the results of the die roll should be interpreted by the rolling Player, eir Turn is not considered complete until these interpretations have also been made. { Clarifying what should happen if someone forgets to roll a die, or - in the case of the fFlourish - to comment on the results. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 792 - Suited and Booted [Multiple] 1. Newer Clothes [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.4.30 (The Emperor's New Clothes) to:- If a Player has a "Garment" Possession in eir Luggage Rack, e may perform the Action of "[Wearing ]" to Wear it, or "[Removing ]" to Remove it. Possessions being Worn are indicated by surrounding their names with asterisks. A Garment that is being Worn cannot be removed from its owner's Luggage Rack by any Action. A Player cannot Wear more than one Garment of the same Type (no more than one Overcoat, no more than one Hat, etc.). 2. Camouflage [Amendment] To Rule 1.4.20 (Token Collection Table), add:- +----------------------------------------+--------------+ | Moving to a Station of a type which | +1 Blue | | matches the Moving Player's Worn Hat | | +----------------------------------------+--------------+ 3. Hand in Glove [Amendment] To Rule 1.14.4 (Token Claiming), add:- If a Player is Wearing Gloves, e may perform the "[Claiming]" Action twice for each Station. 4. *Worn*, Damn You [Amendment] In Rule 1.5.10 (Hard Hats Must Be Worn), replace "carrying" with "Wearing". 5. Albeit Difficult To Throw Money Into [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.20 (Busking), replace "carrying" with "Wearing". { I would add a Busking clause for the Action to require an unworn Hat, but I suspect it'd be shot down for its realism. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 793 - I Can Do Anything [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.20 (Busking), adjust the Piano reward to "1 Gold". { Is anyone seriously going to pay nine Bronze for something they can't carry properly, and which only generates one Blue, two Reds, one Bronze, and two Greens (and even then, only if they can spare fifty minutes)? Better to make it another way to get Golds, I think - more importantly, a "generic" way; looking at the Paris ruleset, there's really not a lot of options open... } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 794 - Stopping Block [Amendment] Amend the third paragraph of Rule 1.9.1 (Basic Blocks) to read:- If a Station is Blocked, any Moves which start, pass through or end at that Station are Invalid, unless the Moving Player owns the Ticket Stub for that Station. { Being able to Move out of a Blocked Station but not a Closed one seems too absurd, especially in terms of synonymous Station Damage. Since you can't Block occupied Stations, this doesn't have much impact beyond making Suspect Packages more dangerous if you're caught right in the middle of them. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 795 - Unfurnished Property [Amendment] In Rule 1.12.2 (Declaring a Home Station), replace "Terminus Stations" with "Stations containing Players, Tokens or any Game elements". { Homing in on top of another Player, a Flag, a particularly juicy Token Stack or whatever should really be ruled against. In this post-Token- Running age, I think it's safe if this replaces the needless Terminus restriction. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 8 17:07:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6851 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 00:07:00 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:07:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 29271 invoked by uid 85); 9 Jun 1999 00:06:59 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:06:59 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990609000547.009871f0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 01:04:00 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 9 - Voting Results for Week 8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 767 Not Good For the Environment -- withdrawn -- 768 Game States rewrite 2 2 2 4 Fails 769 Token Stacking 2 2 2 4 Fails 770 Loop the Loop 2 1 3 4 Fails 771 Game into Boris... 3 1 2 4 Passes 772 Ladders Up and Down 1 1 4 4 Fails 773 Humpty Dumpty Loop -- withdrawn -- 774 A Whiter Shade of Pale -- withdrawn -- 775 Return of the Clever Bear 6 - - 4 Passes 776 Hatcheries -- withdrawn -- 777 Lyttleton Announcement -- withdrawn -- 778 Fair Warning 1 - 5 4 Fails 779 New, Clear Bomb 5 1 - 4 Passes 780 Muzzling 5 1 - 4 Passes 781 A Chip Off the Old Bock 4 1 1 4 Passes 782 A Poor Second To Belgium 5 1 - 4 Passes 783 Fighting For Our Wealth 4 1 1 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 767 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 768 (J'than) - AGA AGA - PAS PAS - FOR - - FOR 769 (J'than) - AGA FOR - PAS PAS - AGA - - FOR 770 (J'than) - AGA AGA - PAS AGA - FOR - - FOR 771 (J'than) - AGA FOR - PAS AGA - FOR - - FOR 772 (J'than) - AGA FOR - PAS AGA - AGA - - AGA 773 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 774 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 775 (Riff) - FOR FOR - FOR FOR - FOR - - FOR 776 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 777 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 778 (Paul) - AGA AGA - FOR AGA - AGA - - AGA 779 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR - - FOR 780 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR - - FOR 781 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - AGA - - FOR 782 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR PAS - FOR - - FOR 783 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - AGA PAS - FOR - - FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 31 5 0 20 34 16 39 4 7 3 Halved: 15 2 10 17 19 2 3 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +10 +23 +0 +0 +6 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -13 -2 I -0 -0 -0 +0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 +0 n +3 +0 +0 +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 a -0 -0 -0 +0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 t +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 -0 +0 i -0 -0 -0 +0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 v +0 +0 +0 +0 e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +3 +6 +0 +0 +4 +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +6 +3 +0 +3 +27 +3 +0 +10 +3 Final: 11 21 5 0 13 44 16 22 2 13 4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon J'than Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - Jonathan (Loop the Loop) IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - Kevan (New, Clear Bomb) CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - Kevan (Muzzling) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - RiffRaff (Return of the Clever Bear) For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Jun 8 23:22:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7414 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 06:22:03 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 06:22:03 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA28441 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:27:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:24:44 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Another Mornington Crescent card game Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >At 20:53 08/06/99 +0000, you wrote: >>> :Let me know what you might think. > >Apologies for not replying before - usual feeble excuses apply. Me as well... > >I haven't finished reading through the various cards, but it seems like a >very wel thought through set of mechanics. Not having played any CCG games >at all (indeed, I wasn't even aware that each player had their own deck in >M:TG) it's fairly novel, but I will be following the development of this >variant very closely. Extremely interesting. Indeed... Actually, it reminds me of a game called Knightmare Chess. It was like a CCG except that the cards weren't collectable. You got one whole set of cards, and each player got half the deck at random. You then got a certain number of points to make a playing deck with, each card costing a certain number of points. The similarity with MCCCG was that you then played a game of Chess. You could play one card each turn along with your move, to produce odd effects like barriers, or more powerful pieces, or what have you. Certain cards could only be played if you moved a certain type of piece that turn, and so on... > >Good points: > >- constant LV >- only one kind of token > >Not-sure points: > >- the buzz cards I didn't even notice those... time to read it again. >- pigeons > >More comments when I've finished reading, although I would like to say that >I think the board is a sufficient differentiator to make it worth trying >out in play. The main issue (as ever) is having a big enough board to put >tokens onto - having tried token play on an LU map on the February >Pilgrimage, I can report that Minstrels and Smarties are too big. I have a board (I'm sure I've mentioned this before) that consists of a LU poster varnished onto a large hinged board. It works quite well for this sort of thing, if you have a table big enough to put it on. (Or if you're somewhere where you can sit on the floor) It takes Bingo tokens and generic plastic boardgame pawns quite well. >>Ole's is the only response I've had to the thing, anyway. If anyone's >>interested, the Web page (http://members.xoom.com/asabove/crescard.txt) now >>has a couple of example decks. I'll start an eGroups list for it if anyone's >>brave enough to say anything else. > >I'll stick my hand up here, I think. Count me in too... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 9 01:28:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8103 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 08:27:50 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 08:27:50 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05132 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19819 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:47 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA12947; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:47 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906090827.JAA12947@u...> Date: 09 Jun 99 09:25:39 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: That Really Is It Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops - I forgot to cancel my MN subs to this address last night. That's the last you'll hear from this address - byee! -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 9 01:28:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8108 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 08:27:51 -0000 Received: from mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (193.130.129.196) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 08:27:51 -0000 Received: from mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk [193.130.129.195]) by mail-gw2.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05115 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from uksn82.uk.oracle.com (uksn82.uk.oracle.com [138.3.208.44]) by mail-gw3.uk.oracle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23478 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:45 +0100 (BST) Received: by uksn82.uk.oracle.com (8.8.8+Sun/) id JAA12909; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:45 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199906090827.JAA12909@u...> Date: 09 Jun 99 09:23:59 +0100 From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Orcl-Application: In-Reply-To:UKUNIX2.UK.ORACLE.COM:l-nomic-d-return-572-dellis=uk.oracle.com@returns.egroups.com's message of 09-Jun-99 00:40 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.2.12.0) Subject: MN: Re: MC CCG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ole revealed to me: >My main gripe about Mythos is the lack of logic. Why do _my_ Byakhees attack >_your_ Investigator? X-Files is better at explaining the crossing of >interests. Oh *that* Mythos! Golly. As a seasoned CoC Keeper, I would say that Byakhees attack Invetigators because they're human. But then, I tended not to use the minor races much. -- Dunx IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jun 9 01:41:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15858 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 08:41:42 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 08:41:42 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 1999 09:41:43 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7jl9bt$1vcj@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:41:33 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: MC-CG mailing list Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to announce that I've set up a mailing list for discussion of the card game; http://www.egroups.com/group/mc-cg/info.html for details and a subscription button. For those who lack Web access or the enthusiasm to use it, I think "mc-cg-subscribe@egroups.com" is the way to do it via email. I'll respond to people's comments on that list, when I get around to it; if anyone has anything further to say about the game, say it there rather than cluttering the MN list any further, if you would. Nice to see some interest, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 9 02:13:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 557 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 09:13:42 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 09:13:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 17276 invoked from network); 9 Jun 1999 09:13:41 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 09:13:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 22973 invoked from network); 9 Jun 1999 09:19:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sprout) (212.56.95.177) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 09:19:08 -0000 From: "Jefferis" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:16:55 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Subject: MN: Week 9 Proposal comments Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 784 - Holding Stations [Multiple] Mmm. I'm not quite sure how much use this is going to be, really. The actual concept is good, but only having three Holding Stations seems limiting. I'd like to see Holding made a Station state, with the opportunity to play a [ Holding] sort-of-action. > Proposal 785 - Turner's Declension [Action] Oh, another of my EM entries... nice implementation, there, but perhaps a tiny smidgen overpowerful in it's zipping across the map implications? I'd prefer this if all Declensable Stations had to be on the same Line and in the same Line Direction. Either that or give the action a small cost for first use. > Multiple Declensions can be performed in succession. The Actioning Player > receives the bottom Token of each Token Stack so moved to. If I read this right, this only occurs on multiple Declensions. Correct? > Proposal 787 - Alchemy [Enactment, Ruttsborough] Interesting. I was worried about this making for easy transmuting of very small token stacks, but in Rutts this shouldn't be a problem. > If the merged Tokens are not identical, they become the Token > alphabetically right after the un-Shunted Token. Not sure about that; it just seems a strange method. > Proposal 789 - And the Smell of It... [Action] The ability to go from Heathrow to Silvertown & London City Airport seems superfluous, really. > Proposal 790 - These Tight Skirts Slow Me Down [Amendment] Seems alright. One of those things that just needs to be tried, I imagine. > Proposal 792 - Suited and Booted [Multiple] Fair enough... > { I would add a Busking clause for the Action to require an unworn Hat, > but I suspect it'd be shot down for its realism. } No, that's a great idea: realism is good when it's memorable. -Graeme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 9 02:49:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22836 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 09:49:25 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 09:49:25 -0000 Received: from opus (p440-006.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.203.6]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA28603 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:49:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <004101beb25d$53e26080$06cb8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:45:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Sv: Week 9 Proposal comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hugo Rune wrote: : :> Proposal 784 - Holding Stations [Multiple] : :Mmm. I'm not quite sure how much use this is going to be, really. The :actual concept is good, but only having three Holding Stations seems :limiting. I'd like to see Holding made a Station state, with the :opportunity to play a [ Holding] sort-of-action. It is, actually, pure EM-ripoff. The more variable geometry of making it = a Station state might be interesting, though. Feel free to write it. :=20 :> Proposal 785 - Turner's Declension [Action] : :Oh, another of my EM entries... nice implementation, there, but perhaps = a :tiny smidgen overpowerful in it's zipping across the map implications? = I'd :prefer this if all Declensable Stations had to be on the same Line and = in :the same Line Direction. Either that or give the action a small cost = for :first use. This is a choice: Is Declension a Strile-thing or a Stradddle-thing? I chose Strile. As to cost, well, it still takes 10 minutes. : :> Multiple Declensions can be performed in succession. The Actioning = Player :> receives the bottom Token of each Token Stack so moved to. : :If I read this right, this only occurs on multiple Declensions. = Correct? Correct. If someone sees it differently, say so. I'll make an update, = then. : :> Proposal 787 - Alchemy [Enactment, Ruttsborough] : :Interesting. I was worried about this making for easy transmuting of = very :small token stacks, but in Rutts this shouldn't be a problem. :=20 That was exactly the reason for putting it in Rutts. :> If the merged Tokens are not identical, they become the Token :> alphabetically right after the un-Shunted Token. : :Not sure about that; it just seems a strange method. It is*. My first version had the Token become the one alphabetically = after the alphabetically last, but that would produce Silver each time = Red was involved, which was just _too much_. *) I thought Alchemy was supposed to be strange. : :> Proposal 789 - And the Smell of It... [Action] : :The ability to go from Heathrow to Silvertown & London City Airport = seems :superfluous, really. : Yes. This is really a Turin'57 thing (especially Berlin or New York), but I = see no reason not to have the opportunity in Finsbury or (even) Vanilla. I had too many props, so the follow-up to this (Bransoning) won't come = through until next week. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jun 9 06:37:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23854 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 13:35:44 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 13:35:44 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 1999 14:35:44 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7jlqje$udd7@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 13:35:42 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990609000636.00996db0@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 9 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 784 - Holding Stations [Multiple] In the first Week of Year Two, Proposal 341 (A little bit of local colour) attempted to do more or less the same. Looking back over the Voting I was the only person to vote against it, but I remember mentioning that an unlimited Token Stack size seemed merely awkward to keep track of without adding anything very much to the Game. A year on, it might be more feasible; this Proposal at least does the job rather neatly. I think I might vote this through out of curiosity. >Proposal 785 - Turner's Declension [Action] Hmm. An interesting alternative Strile, with benefits outweighing drawbacks. I'm not sure about one bit of it, though:- Multiple Declensions can be performed in succession. The Actioning Player receives the bottom Token of each Token Stack so moved to. This puzzles me. Does it mean that I can play "[Declension to Neasden] [Declension to Amersham] [Declension to Morden] Morden (NT)"? If so, what size must the Stacks be? Decreasing by one each time, or constantly one less than my starting location? I presume the latter, since the Piece doesn't Move until the Move itself. This means, though, that "each Token Stack so moved to" doesn't really amount to anything. >Proposal 786 - More better unique [Amendment] > >Make the Actions [Attracting], [Busking], [Catching Pigeon], [Dead-End >Shunting to ], [Freeming ], [Greening ], >[Knidding ], [Magno-Clamping ], [Narging ], and >[Toffing ] Singular Actions. The concept of Singularity is redundant these days, actually, now that we've grouped a load of stuff in Section 1.10 and said that it can only be performed as the first Post-Move Action (which does, looking at it, make Double-Shunting impossible). I can't see this amendment achieving much; we might just as well repeal Singularity. But for Busking, anyway. What's that doing in there? >Proposal 787 - Alchemy [Enactment, Ruttsborough] Intriguing, but probably too tricky in its setup to be of any great use. Hardly Ruttsborough, even so. >Proposal 788 - Speed Crazy [Action] Very nice. You can pass to set your LV to zero, of course, but this is so harsh and awkward that it doesn't detract from the idea. >Proposal 789 - And the Smell of It... [Action] Better placed in the Turin Special Rulesets as and when, I think; it seems rather too dull to bother with on the London Map. I much preferred the Bransoning. >Proposal 790 - These Tight Skirts Slow Me Down [Amendment] Ugh, quite frankly. Such complex mathematical formulae are always quite distasteful. Wouldn't we be better off saying "if your LV is six or more, your Move takes twenty minutes", and giving "[Line Change]" a duration? If we needed to regulate this sort of thing; I'm not so sure that we do, in all honesty. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 9 07:12:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17475 invoked by uid 7770); 9 Jun 1999 14:11:50 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 14:11:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 2987 invoked from network); 9 Jun 1999 14:15:43 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 14:15:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 30470 invoked from network); 9 Jun 1999 14:17:18 -0000 Received: from 214.hiper02.shef.dialup.force9.net (HELO sprout) (195.166.144.214) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 14:17:18 -0000 From: "Jefferis" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:15:34 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Subject: MN: Re: Sv: Week 9 Proposal comments Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >:> Proposal 785 - Turner's Declension [Action] >: >:Oh, another of my EM entries... nice implementation, there, but perhaps a >:tiny smidgen overpowerful in its zipping across the map implications? I'd >:prefer this if all Declensable Stations had to be on the same Line and in >:the same Line Direction. Either that or give the action a small cost for >:first use. >This is a choice: Is Declension a Strile-thing or a Stradddle-thing? >I chose Strile. Hm, IIRC, the EM version says Strile as well. That's more to do with the way I visualise Striles and Straddles outside of Mornomic - my 'Strile' sits atop two token stacks [like MN's Straddles] and my 'Straddles' are like bridges between two (parallellish) line sections. So, when I wrote it, I was really visualising a mechanic similar to MN's Straddling. At any rate -- doesn't the EM one reward *low* LV rather than high? :) >As to cost, well, it still takes 10 minutes. I suppose so.. >:> Proposal 787 - Alchemy [Enactment, Ruttsborough] >: >:Interesting. I was worried about this making for easy transmuting of very >:small token stacks, but in Rutts this shouldn't be a problem. > >That was exactly the reason for putting it in Rutts. Yes, I see that. Not having played a Rutts game, I can't really comment on how it might affect the play. >:> If the merged Tokens are not identical, they become the Token >:> alphabetically right after the un-Shunted Token. >: >:Not sure about that; it just seems a strange method. > >It is*. My first version had the Token become the one alphabetically >after the alphabetically last, but that would produce Silver each time >Red was involved, which was just _too much_. Agreed. And alchemy is meant to be strange, that's true. Well, despite it's arbitrariness, I can't think of a decent alternative. (What it really needs, of course, are Lead Tokens... :) ...) >:> Proposal 789 - And the Smell of It... [Action] >: >:The ability to go from Heathrow to Silvertown & London City Airport seems >:superfluous, really. >: >:Yes. >:This is really a Turin'57 thing [...] Oh, fair enough then I suppose, the only problem being whether it's misleading in Vanilla games. -Graeme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jun 12 09:30:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29105 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Jun 1999 16:28:18 -0000 Received: from judy.ic.ac.uk (155.198.5.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Jun 1999 16:28:18 -0000 Received: from juliet.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.5.4]) by judy.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10sqdl-00058w-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:28:18 +0000 Received: from madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.2]) by juliet.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10sqdl-0003Ot-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:28:17 +0000 Received: from sylow.ma.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.196.123] helo=sylow) by madfsa.ma.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 10sqdk-00059G-00; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:28:16 +0100 From: "Snow" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:28:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: Subject: MN: Going inactive Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm leaving university and heading out into the real world. They don't appear to have free unlimited internet access there so I will go inactive for an indeterminate period (hopefully just a week or so- until I get a modem). Snow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@d... Mon Jun 14 05:36:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 2812 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Jun 1999 12:35:41 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jun 1999 12:35:41 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Jun 1999 13:35:41 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7k2suo$rcv3@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:35:36 -0000 From: dunx@d... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990609000636.00996db0@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 9 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have a lot to add to the remarks which have already been made, but: > Proposal 790 - These Tight Skirts Slow Me Down [Amendment] > > Duration = ((Stations / 4) + 1) * 10 + (Line_Changes) * 5 I don't like the move length component and will be voting against on that basis. The line change component is more appropriate, in my view, but I do not consider myself an apologist for it. That's all, really. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon Jun 14 23:03:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-Duplicate: Duplicate(2)-1929572115 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24587 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Jun 1999 21:59:15 -0000 Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (195.92.193.210) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jun 1999 21:59:15 -0000 Received: from modem-74.cisapride.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.57.74] helo=franz-liszt) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10tel8-0001f4-00; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:59:14 +0100 Message-ID: <001801beb6b2$02e441e0$4a39883e@f...> From: "Jonathan Ellis" To: , Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:05:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: MN: Resignation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My lords, ladies and gentlemen, Owing to circumstances beyond my control (generally known as "Real Life", specifically as "moving house") I am going to have to cut down the amount of time I spend on the web. In the end, it has come down to a straight choice, whether to carry on playing Mornington Crescent or Mornington Nomic (I have time enough for one, but not both, and am currently embroiled in a challenging Lock Cup match against Mr Wild Pants), and I am sorry to have to say that Mornington Nomic is the one that has had to take second place, as I prefer the more freeform version of the game. I am therefore resigning from the Long Game and from Mornington Nomic. Cheers. It's been fun while it lasted - Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 15 15:56:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9008 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jun 1999 22:39:51 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 22:39:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18388 invoked by uid 85); 15 Jun 1999 22:39:39 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 22:39:39 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990615230133.00988580@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:35:26 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 10 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Ten ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 796 - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur [Action] New Rule 1.7.x - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur A Player may perform a Pre-Move Action of "[Bransoning to @Station@]", provided e is at an Airport Interchange or at a Station with the string 'Gold' in its name. When a Player performs the Action "[Bransoning to @Station@]", eir LV is set to zero. The next Actioning Player must roll a 295-sided die and then look up the rolled number in the Venbacker Table. The Bransoning Player is deemed to have ended eir Turn at the Station indicated by the roll, and @Station@ in the GSD is replaced with the name of the indicated Station. This Special Move is always allowed. Insert in Action Table ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Bransoning] Post 1.7.x -1 Go -1 Gr -1 Bk {Comment: Letting the _next_ player make the roll should cover the hole. A small sacrifice for the good of the game. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 797 - Sitting on a Wall [Enactment] Proposal for a new Rule 1.8.x - Humpty Dumpty Loop A Humpty Dumpty Loop has the Trap Stations Kingsbury, Queensway, Prince Regent, Earl's Court, Barons Court, Knightsbridge. The Sidestep Action [Humpty Sidestep] costs 1 Silver to perform and the Escape Action [Dumpty Escape] can only be performed when the Player has an LV equal to the remainder of (eir Charge/10). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Humpty Sidestep] Pre 1.8.2 -1 Si [Dumpty Escape] Post 1.8.2 -2 Gr ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 798 - Hatch-as Hatch-Can [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Hatching from to ] Post 1.8.x -1 Si -z Bu* [Cross-Hatching from to ] Post 1.8.x -1 Go -z Bu* [Un-Hatching from to ] Post 1.8.x -1 Go -z Bu* *) 1 Blue Token per Station in the LIne Segment Rule 1.8.x - Hatcheries A Line Segment may be Hatched by playing the Post-Move Action "[Hatching from to ]", where & are Stations and is a Line upon which both Stations rest and via which there is a continuous route between the Stations that requires no changes in direction. The order of Stations in the Action is not significant. In order to Hatch a Line Segment, the Actioning Player must have Moved via the Line Segment in the same Turn. Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment not to be considered part of the Line in question for a period of one Round. For the purpose of counting Lines at an Interchange, the Hatched Line Segment is considered absent. Moving within a Hatched Line Segment is unhindered by its Hatching, while Moving to or from a Hatched Line Segment constitutes a change of Line. A Hatched Line Segment may be Cross-Hatched by playing the Post-Move Action "[Cross-Hatching from to ]", where , and are defined as mentioned above, provided the Actioning Player is at a Station in the Line Segment to be Cross-Hatched. Cross-Hatching a Line Segment causes that Line Segment to stay Hatched until Un-Hatched, thus extending the period of the Hatch. A Cross-Hatched Line Segment is indicated in Disruptions by the suffix "(XHatch)" appended to the affected Line Segment, the Line Segment being described by its end Stations and the affected Line Code. eg Angel to Bank (NT) (XHatch) A Cross-Hatched Line Segment may be Un-Hatched by playing the Post-Move Action "[Un-Hatching from to ]", where , and are defined as mentioned above, provided the Actioning Player is at a Station in the Line Segment to be Un-Hatched. Un-Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment to be considered part of the Line in question again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 799 - He has a Way of Saying It [Action] Rule 1.7.x - Lyttleton Announcement A Player may perform the Pre-Move Action of "[Lyttleton Announcement]". When a Lyttleton Announcement is made, all Game States are reset to what they were at the beginning of the Game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Lyttleton Announcement] Neut 1.7.x 50 -1 Go ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 800 - Soap Box [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.6 (Straddling Nancy), after A Straddle Destination is valid if its distance from the starting location is less than or equal to the number of Tokens in the Stack at the starting location. In addition, Running Straddles may only be performed in the Piece's Line Direction. add For the purpose of this rule, any Token Stack at Marble Arch is considered to have a height of one Token more than its actual height. Even if there are no Tokens at Marble Arch, a Straddle may start there, with a Straddling distance of one. {Comment: Speaker's Corner, of course. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 801 - easy-to-read Fosdyke Codes [Amendment] Change the sentence reading: A Fosdyke Code (FC) consists of the set of classes and their indicators describing the proximity relationship between subject and object. to: A Fosdyke Code (FC) consists of the set of classes and their indicators describing the proximity relationship between subject and object. This set is given in standard set notation - round brackets enclosing elements separated by comments, viz: (element 1, element 2, element 3...). Amend the table giving examples of Fosdyke Codes to read: FC Meaning ------------------------------------------------------------- (S0,L0) subject and object are both at the same Station and on the same Line (S3,L0) subject and object are three Stations apart on the same Line (R1,Z1) subject and object are four Stations apart on the shortest route and are in adjacent Zones. Amend the table giving examples of Fosdyke Requirements to read: FR Meaning ------------------------------------------------------------------ (S0,L0) subject and object must both be at the same Station and on the same Line ie both Station and Line elements must be exactly zero (R<6) subject and object must be within six stations of each other by any route ie the route distance must be less than six (Q>1) subject and object must have two Quadrant boundaries between them (ie in a different, non-adjacent Quadrant) {Comments: As demonstrated on the discussion list, Fosdyke Requirements are a little hard to read once you get past simple examples. Having them listed as a set might not add many characters, but will probably make things easier to read in the long run.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 802 - Fosdyke Updates to the Action Table [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.7.2 to read: The following table is an index to all Actions in Mornington Nomic. It should be used as a guide; the full details given in the pertaining Rule may give requirements and effects not listable here. In particular, the Cost, Gain and Fosdyke Requirements (FR) columns are not guaranteed to be complete. In the Fosdyke Requirements column, the Subject is given to be the Piece of the Player performing the Action and the Object is usually (but not always - again, check the context in the Rule) the first object mentioned as a variable (i.e. in ) in the Action. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Anti-Narg] # Post 1.10.8 1Bk [Applauding ] Neut 0.9.4 none [Attracting] Neut 1.10.14 varies [Bifurcating to ] Post 1.7.42 30 1Go,2 Gr [Blocking ] Post 1.9.1 1Re (S1) [Blonking ] Post 1.10.16 20 1Re [Blue to Gold] Neut 1.7.21 none 2Bu 1Go [Bonanza] Neut 1.4.10 10Plastic 1Go [Bridges Up] Neut 1.8.3 2Bu [Bridges Down] Neut 1.8.3 2Bu [Bronze to Gold] Neut 1.7.21 none 8Br 1Go [Bronze to Silver] Neut 1.7.21 none 4Br 1Si [Bulkheading ] Neut 1.9.3 20 4Re (S1) [Busking] # Neut 1.7.20 50 varies [Cascade Kill] Post 1.7.37 2Re [Cascade Sidestep] Pre 1.8.2 3Bk [Cascade Steal] Post 1.7.37 3Re [Cashing In Hats] Neut 1.4.6 1Go,2Si [Catching Pigeon] # Post 1.4.25 [Charge Spiral] Neut 1.8.11 3Bu [Charge Tunneling] Post 1.19.4 20 1Si [Circle Line: Normal] Post 1.8.5 20 2Bu [Circle Line: (Anti)Clockwise] Post 1.8.5 20 2Bu,1Si [Circle Line: Electrified] Post 1.8.5 20 2Re,2Bu,1Si [Claiming a Post 1.14.4 5 (S0) Token from ] [Claiming Drone Stick] Neut 1.15.1 3Bu [Purchasing Hat] Post 1.4.6 2Br [Collecting Parcel] Neut 1.11.2 [Collection Plate] Neut 1.11.7 1Si [Collecting PoID] Neut 1.4.24 none [Collecting Tithe] Neut 1.7.31 1Bu [ Wormhole to ] Post 1.7.13 20 2Si [Constructing Generator] Neut 1.7.54 2Gr,2Si [Courier Call (Fixed)] Post 1.11.2 1Gr [Courier Call (Random)] Post 1.11.2 [Cowering] Post 1.7.56 1Bu [Dead-End Shunting to Post 1.10.3 1Re (S=LV) ] # [Declaring ____ Gambit/ Post 1.18.1 5 as specified Manoeuvre] and 1Gr [Defusing Package] Post 1.7.30 20 1Si [Degreening] Post 1.10.9 2Gr [De-Knidding] Post 1.10.11 [De-Radiating] Neut 1.10.18 1Re,1Bu [De-Toffing] Post 1.10.13 1Bk [Delivering Parcel] Neut 1.11.2 3Go [Denying the ____ Gambit/ Post 1.18.4 none 1Re,1Bu varies Manoeuvre] [Detonating Package] Post 1.7.30 20 2Re (S<5) [Discarding ] Neut 1.4.22 none [Dollis Sidestep] Pre 1.8.1 1Si [Dollis Escape] Pre 1.8.1 [Double Helsinki] Neut 1.7.57 6Bu [Dropping Package at ] Neut 1.4.7 2Re (S0) [Duration: +0x00] Neut 1.7.51 xBu [Eating ] Pre 1.4.16 20 [Electroplating] Neut 1.7.46 1Br 1Go [Finding] Post 1.7.53 30 2Br varies [Fire at ] (Inter) Post 1.9.2 10 per 4Re line [Fire at ] (Other) Post 1.9.2 2Re [Forging PoID] Post 1.4.24 60 10Bk [Freeming ] # Post 1.10.10 20 1Re,1Gr (S0,L0) [Freem-away!] Post 1.10.10 [Freewheeling] Pre 1.7.45 [Generating Token] Neut 1.7.54 1Gr varies [Ghosting] Pre 1.11.6 1Bk [Giving Tokens to ] Post 1.7.27 [Gold Rush] Post 1.7.x 1Gr [Gold to Blue] Neut 1.7.21 none 1Go 3Bu [Gold to Silver] Neut 1.7.21 none 1Go 2Si [Gold to Bronze] Neut 1.7.21 none 1Go 8Br [Greening ] # Post 1.10.9 20 2Gr (S0,L0) [Hoarding ] Post 1.4.9 [Home] Pre 1.12.4 30 [Home: ] Neut 1.12.2 none [Huffing ] Post 1.10.15 (S0,L0) [Hyde Transformation] Post 1.7.38 1Bu,2Re [Ignore the Gap] Neut 1.8.7 5 1Si [Into Boris] Neut 1.8.12 2Re,2Bu [Into Knip] Neut 1.8.4 4Bu [Knerdling] Pre 1.10.12 2Re [Knidding ] # Post 1.10.11 20 4Re (S0,L0) [Ladder Sidestep] Pre 1.8.9 3Bk [Late Arrival from ] Neut 1.7.9 3Re [Line Change] Pre 1.5.11 none 1Bk [LV+X] Pre 1.6.1 [LV-X] Pre 1.6.1 [Maelberging ] Post 1.9.5 1Bu [Magno-Clamping ] # Neut 1.10.14 1Gr [Magno-Gone] Neut 1.10.14 [Mind the Gap] Neut 1.8.7 1Si [Narging ] # Post 1.10.8 20 3Re (S0,L0) [Opening MC] Neut 1.7.28 3Go if Charge does not match [Out of Boris] Neut 1.8.12 2Gr,2Bu [Out of Knip] Neut 1.8.4 4Bu [Parks and Greens Cascade] Post 1.8.2 2Bu [Pegging from Post 1.11.5 20 xBu * to ] [Pegging ] Neut 1.11.4 1Bu [PoID on ] Neut 1.4.24 (S0,L0) [ Off] Neut 1.4.33 none [ On] Neut 1.4.33 none [Power Failure! ] Post 1.9.4 20 3Re (L0) [Power Restored ] Post 1.9.4 (L0) [Purchasing ] Neut 1.4.18 xBr [Radiating ] Neut 1.10.18 3Re (S0,L0) [Radio Clamp LV+X] Post 1.10.18 1Re [Radio Clamp LV-X] Post 1.10.18 1Re [Radio Clamp to ] Neut 1.10.18 1Re [Rebounding off ] Post 1.5.6 [Recycling] Neut 1.7.39 5 varies varies [Releasing Pigeons] Post 1.4.25 1Go per Pigeon [Removing Bulkhead at Neut 1.9.3 20 4Bk ] [Removing ] Neut 1.4.30 15 [Removing Velocity Bomb] Neut 1.10.6 2Si [Rent to ] Pre 1.12.3 8Br [Reshuffling] Neut 1.4.15 [Selling ] Neut 1.4.18 (x/2)Br [Sgronk!] Pre 1.8.10 20 3Bu [Shadowing ] # Post 1.10.5 (S0) [Shunting to Post 1.10.1 1Re (S0,L0) ] # [Single Helsinki] Neut 1.7.57 3Bu [Silver to Bronze] Neut 1.7.21 none 1Si 4Br [Silver to Gold] Neut 1.7.21 none 2Si 1Go [Soap on ()] Pre 1.9.7 2Bu (L0) [Spooning ] Post 1.10.7 20 1Go (S0,L0) [ Wild] Post 1.11.1 1Gr [Stationary-Shunting Post 1.10.17 1Re (S0,L0) to ] [Straddling to ] Post 1.7.6 20 1Bk [Stribble to ] Post 1.7.55 (L0) [Striling to ] Pre 1.7.12 [Stub Link] Pre 1.7.33 [Taking a Bow] Neut 0.9.4 none [Terminating Cascade] Post 1.8.2 [Terminating Ladder] Post 1.8.9 [Tithe ] Neut 1.7.31 20 (7-Zone)Bu [Toffing ] # Post 1.10.13 20 2Re,1Gr (S0,L0) [Token Cascade] Pre 1.7.36 15 4Re/Bu/Bk [ Bock] Post 1.8.8 3Bu, 1 [ Token on Post 1.14.3 5 ] [Toll to ] Pre 1.12.3 4Br [Triple Helsinki] Neut 1.7.57 9Bu [Un-Bock ] Post 1.8.8 3Bu 1 [Un-Bock] Post 1.8.8 6Bu [Un-Maelberging] Post 1.9.5 1Bu (S0,L0) [Unpegging ] Post 1.11.4 1Bk [Unspoon] Post 1.10.7 5 any [Using ____ Gambit/Manoeuvre] Post 1.18.3 5 varies [Velocity-Bombing ] Post 1.10.6 3Re [Venbacker Ladder] Pre 1.8.9 2Bu [Visiting ] Post 1.7.9 6Br [Waiting] Neut 1.7.52 Varies [Walking to ] Pre 1.7.10 30 1Bk [Wearing ] Neut 1.4.30 15 [Wild] Pre 1.11.1 30 1Bk {Adding the Fosdyke Requirements in, and correcting a few things - like the fact that Bulkheading was incorrectly referring to 1.7.27 and several Actions referred to 1.7.x and 1.9.x.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 803 - Push Down, Pop Up, Byte Byte Byte! [Enactment] Add the following Action to 1.7.2: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Inverting Stack at ] Neut 1.4.x 1 Gr Add the following Rule to section 1.4: Rule 1.4.x - Pushing and popping A Player may perform the Action [Inverting Stack at ] to invert the Token Stack at the named Station. This reverses the order of the Tokens in the Stack - to wit, the bottom token becomes the top, the second bottom becomes the second top, and so forth. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 804 - Rebound to Work [Multiple] { Rewording the Rebound rule completely, making it a pre-Move permission Action and simplifying the wording of the rebound (without, unless I've missed anything, losing a glimmer of the implementation). } 1. Tall Buildings In A Single Rebound [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.5.6 (On the Rebound):- A Player may perform the pre-Move Action "[Rebounding]" to set emself up to rebound during eir Move. If a Player has performed the "[Rebounding]" Action, e may, during eir Move, rebound at Stations which are adjacent to Blocked Stations (provided that e is on a Line which the two Stations have in common), and at Terminus Stations. When rebounding at a Station, the rebounding Player may change Line Direction. 2. You Absolute Rebounder! [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.2 (Actions), replace "[Rebounding off ]" with:- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Rebounding] Pre 1.5.6 zero ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 805 - Flicking Paper Clips [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.10.17 (Stationary Shunts) to:- A Player may perform a "[Stationary Shunt]"; this is identical to a normal Shunt, except that it may (and may only) be performed if the Actioning Player has an LV of zero. When performed, a Stationary Shunt has the same effect as a normal Shunt being played at an LV of 1, except that the Actioning Player may not take any Tokens or Possessions from the Shunted Player. { Tidying a bit, and removing the ridiculous "Shunted Player can't take revenge next Turn" clause. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 806 - Sliced Carat [Amendment] In Rule 1.16.1 (One Good Turn), remove the text "If a Turn is made to replace an Illegal Turn, its Play should be preceded by a "^" character." { Since we've never actually remembered to use it. I think the stigmata of being buzzed in front of everyone else is probably enough of a counter- incentive, without actually branding people. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 807 - Eco-Hostile [Amendment] { Altering it to allow recycling only of Tokens of the same colour, *or* a single Possession. Bonanza wins and other any-Token things are too easy, otherwise, as well as Greening all the Drone's Tokens before you abandon em, and whatever. Also fixing the rule to stipulate that, er, the Recycled stuff is actually destroyed. } Reword the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.39 (Ecofriendly) to:- A Player may perform the Neutral Action of "[Recycling]" to Recycle a number of Tokens of the same colour, or a single non-Indestructable Possession, either of which must be in eir possession. That which e Recycles is detailed in the comments of eir Turn, and is destroyed upon performance of this Action. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 808 - Lie In It [Amendment] Cut the third and fourth paragraphs of Rule 0.4.3 (Proposal Submission), pertaining to the amendment of Proposals. { It's too fiddly, really, with quite a few down-sides - it's extra legwork for friend Speaker, it biases things heavily against Players who vote early in the Week (particularly if they don't check their mail again until after the Week-End), and it gives people a reason not to think too carefully about their Proposals when they first write them. Additionally, the occasions where it has been used usually don't address the issues raised on the mailing list anyway, or further issues come up later in the week. We can live without this, I feel. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 15 15:56:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9052 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jun 1999 22:39:56 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 22:39:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 18482 invoked by uid 85); 15 Jun 1999 22:39:52 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 22:39:52 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990615230156.009876d0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:35:06 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 10 - Voting Results for Week 9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 784 Holding Stations 5 1 - 3 Passes 785 Turner's Declension 3 1 2 3 Passes 786 More Better Unique 2 1 3 3 Fails 787 Alchemy 3 - 3 3 Fails 788 Speed Crazy 5 1 - 3 Passes 789 And the Smell of It... 3 - 3 3 Fails 790 These Tight Skirts ... 2 - 4 3 Fails 791 UnderfFlourished 3 1 2 3 Passes 792 Suited and Booted 5 1 - 3 Passes 793 I Can Do Anything 5 1 - 3 Passes 794 Stopping Block 5 1 - 3 Passes 795 Unfurnished Property 4 1 1 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 784 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS FOR FOR - 785 (Ole) - FOR FOR - AGA - PAS FOR AGA - 786 (Paul) - FOR AGA - AGA - AGA PAS FOR - 787 (Ole) - FOR FOR - AGA - FOR AGA AGA - 788 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS FOR FOR - 789 (Ole) - AGA AGA - AGA - FOR FOR FOR - 790 (Paul) - AGA FOR - AGA - AGA FOR AGA - 791 (Kevan) - FOR AGA - PAS - AGA FOR FOR - 792 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR FOR - 793 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR FOR - 794 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR FOR - 795 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - AGA FOR FOR - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 21 5 0 44 16 22 -2 13 4 Halved: 10 2 22 11 -1 6 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +22 +19 +4 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -3 I -8 -7 -0 I Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 n +3 +3 +3 n Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 +0 a -6 -3 -0 a c c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 t +0 +0 +0 t EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 +0 i -0 -0 -0 i Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +0 v +0 +0 +0 v e e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +6 +4 +0 +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +6 +3 +0 +28 +12 -3 +3 Final: 11 16 5 0 50 16 23 -4 9 4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - Kevan (UnderfFlourished) CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - Kevan (Stopping Block) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - Ole (Turner's Declension) Clever Bear (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 15 15:57:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12894 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Jun 1999 22:45:47 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 22:45:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 20750 invoked by uid 85); 15 Jun 1999 22:45:39 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 22:45:39 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990615234113.009435b0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:42:37 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Split Ruleset Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There've been no comments on the split ruleset, so I assume there are no issues with it. I'll be going across to using this form as of next Week. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jun 16 06:38:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 6236 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Jun 1999 13:22:05 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Jun 1999 13:22:05 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jun 1999 14:22:05 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7k88dp$aoqo@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:22:01 -0000 From: kevan@d... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990615230133.00988580@p...> To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 10 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 796 - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur [Action] Nnng. Confusing stuff. Under this Proposed Rule, a legal couple of Moves would be:- Kevan : [LV+3] Heathrow Terminal 4 (PD) Dunx : Pass (Angel (NT)) Kevan : [Bransoning to @Station@] [Wild] Angel (NT) [Shadowing Dunx] The last Move being replaced with:- Kevan : [Bransoning to Neasden] [Wild] Angel (NT) [Shadowing Dunx] ...seeing me end the Turn at Neasden. Which seems a very odd way of doing it. I think the neatest way might be to make Bransoning a post-Move Action, and have it enforcing a Special Move to the random destination, during the Actioning Player's next Turn. >{Comment: > Letting the _next_ player make the roll should cover the hole. No different to letting the Actioning Player roll the die after eir Turn, really. >Proposal 798 - Hatch-as Hatch-Can [Action] This still puzzles me a bit, I'm afraid... > Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment not to > be considered part of the Line in question for a period of one Round. Are those Stations considered to be physically detached from their neighbours, so that you can't moved from an Unhatched to a Hatched Station? Or are they simply "not considered part of the Line" in the same way that Ghost Stations don't have a Line - Angel will still sit on the Northern Line and be available to Move to, it just has a Line Code of "N/A" for a Turn? If it's the latter, then this seems ludicrously weak. Either way, though, this reads a little too ambiguously, to me. >Proposal 799 - He has a Way of Saying It [Action] > > A Player may perform the Pre-Move Action of "[Lyttleton Announcement]". > When a Lyttleton Announcement is made, all Game States are reset to > what they were at the beginning of the Game. Terrifying. If you take a sinle Game State to be "any aspect of the Game" (which Rules 1.2.0 and 1.3.1 would seem to suggest), then this means the Game reverts to however it was immediately prior to the opening Move. Crushingly powerful. Even if the Proposer of this intended "Game States" to mean "Knip and Bock and what have you", it's still probably a bit too powerful; a person with four Golds can rescind all such States and move to the Crescent. Perhaps there is room for a "State" destroyer, though, along similar lines to getting rid of all your Clamps by standing over a Package and detonating it... >Proposal 800 - Soap Box [Amendment] Cute, but I can't imagine it ever being used. It'd be fitting to have Marble Arch giving some benefit to the Speaker, I suppose, but such crossover between Crecent and Nomic doesn't fit things too well. >Proposal 801 - easy-to-read Fosdyke Codes [Amendment] It makes sense, really. >Proposal 802 - Fosdyke Updates to the Action Table [Amendment] Very neatly done. Good stuff. >Proposal 803 - Push Down, Pop Up, Byte Byte Byte! [Enactment] Good stuff. A nicely simple mechanic which can work with a few other rules to achieve intriguing strategic things; just the sort of Proposal I like to see. Bravo, whoever. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 16 11:17:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15734 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Jun 1999 18:17:19 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Jun 1999 18:17:19 -0000 Received: from opus (p411-116.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.217.116]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA19372 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:17:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00fb01beb824$70104340$a6d852c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <7k88dp$aoqo@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:58:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 10 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : >Proposal 796 - Power-crazed Egotistical Entrepreneur [Action] : : Nnng. Confusing stuff. Under this Proposed Rule, a legal couple of Moves : would be:- : : Kevan : [LV+3] Heathrow Terminal 4 (PD) : Dunx : Pass (Angel (NT)) : Kevan : [Bransoning to @Station@] [Wild] Angel (NT) [Shadowing Dunx] : : The last Move being replaced with:- : : Kevan : [Bransoning to Neasden] [Wild] Angel (NT) [Shadowing Dunx] : : ...seeing me end the Turn at Neasden. Which seems a very odd way of : doing it. I think the neatest way might be to make Bransoning a : post-Move Action, and have it enforcing a Special Move to the random : destination, during the Actioning Player's next Turn. It should be Post. It looks like I made a mistake here. The Action table entry says Post, the text says Pre. : : >{Comment: : > Letting the _next_ player make the roll should cover the hole. : : No different to letting the Actioning Player roll the die after eir : Turn, really. : That would require a new definition of the end of a Turn or be open to abuse. As it is now, the Turn is not over until the _next_ player begins eir Turn. : >Proposal 798 - Hatch-as Hatch-Can [Action] : : This still puzzles me a bit, I'm afraid... : : > Hatching a Line Segment causes all Stations in that Line Segment not to : > be considered part of the Line in question for a period of one Round. : : Are those Stations considered to be physically detached from their : neighbours, so that you can't moved from an Unhatched to a Hatched : Station? Or are they simply "not considered part of the Line" in the : same way that Ghost Stations don't have a Line - Angel will still : sit on the Northern Line and be available to Move to, it just has a : Line Code of "N/A" for a Turn? : : If it's the latter, then this seems ludicrously weak. Either way, : though, this reads a little too ambiguously, to me. Angel still sits on the line connecting Old Street and KingsX. If it is weak, it is because we have too few Actions depending on Line. : : >Proposal 799 - He has a Way of Saying It [Action] : > : Even if the Proposer of this intended "Game States" to mean "Knip and : Bock and what have you", it's still probably a bit too powerful; a : person with four Golds can rescind all such States and move to the : Crescent. The meaning was "Knip and Bock and what have you", but who has 4 Golds? Or 26 in the Long Game? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 16 13:20:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2997 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Jun 1999 20:18:27 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Jun 1999 20:18:27 -0000 Received: from opus (p420-008.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.221.136]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22114 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:18:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <019001beb835$5be89820$a6d852c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <4.1.19990615230133.00988580@p...> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:56:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 10 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : : Proposal 799 - He has a Way of Saying It [Action] : : Rule 1.7.x - Lyttleton Announcement : : A Player may perform the Pre-Move Action of "[Lyttleton Announcement]". : [Lyttleton Announcement] Neut 1.7.x 50 -1 Go : I hate cut&paste. The ruletext is OK, the Action table is erroneous. : Proposal 801 - easy-to-read Fosdyke Codes [Amendment] : (R1,Z1) subject and object are four Stations apart on the : shortest route and are in adjacent Zones. Typo alert! Should have been (R4,Z1). : : Proposal 802 - Fosdyke Updates to the Action Table [Amendment] : : Amend Rule 1.7.2 to read: : : The following table is an index to all Actions in Mornington Nomic. It : should be used as a guide; the full details given in the pertaining Rule may : give requirements and effects not listable here. In particular, the Cost, : Gain and Fosdyke Requirements (FR) columns are not guaranteed to be : complete. It would be nice if the full details _are_ in the Rule. If this is adopted, we may need to comb through the Rules. : [Dead-End Shunting to Post 1.10.3 1Re (S=LV) : ] # : [Shunting to Post 1.10.1 1Re (S0,L0) : ] # This puzzles me. Explanation? : : Proposal 808 - Lie In It [Amendment] : : Cut the third and fourth paragraphs of Rule 0.4.3 (Proposal Submission), : pertaining to the amendment of Proposals. : : { It's too fiddly, really, with quite a few down-sides - it's extra legwork : for friend Speaker, it biases things heavily against Players who vote early : in the Week (particularly if they don't check their mail again until after : the Week-End), and it gives people a reason not to think too carefully : about their Proposals when they first write them. Additionally, the : occasions where it has been used usually don't address the issues raised : on the mailing list anyway, or further issues come up later in the week. : We can live without this, I feel. } The logical thing here would be to strike the fifth paragraph as well. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Mon Jun 21 05:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 2863 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jun 1999 12:27:27 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 1999 12:27:27 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 1999 13:27:27 -0000 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7klb3a$1j5c@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:27:23 -0000 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Subject: MN: The Circle Line Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mildly amusing to note that my reaction to London Transport's recent decision to close the Circle Line until August, and of the general public's resultant outrage to it, was "Oh, come on, it's only been Power-Failed, not Electrified." On a related note, I was a little puzzled to find Iris Murdoch's excellent "A Word Child" casually referring to the Circle Line as "the Inner Circle", more than a few times (the main character often passing the time by taking a train around the line a few dozen times, alighting at random) - did it used to be known as this, back in the seventies, or something? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Mon Jun 21 23:46:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30562 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Jun 1999 06:46:26 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jun 1999 06:46:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 3560 invoked by uid 85); 22 Jun 1999 06:46:28 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 1999 06:46:28 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990622073724.0091f100@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:43:07 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <7klb3a$1j5c@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: The Circle Line Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 12:27 21/06/99 +0000, you wrote: >Mildly amusing to note that my reaction to London Transport's recent >decision to close the Circle Line until August, and of the general public's >resultant outrage to it, was "Oh, come on, it's only been Power-Failed, not >Electrified." Ah, the perspective of the seasoned player... >On a related note, I was a little puzzled to find Iris Murdoch's excellent >"A Word Child" casually referring to the Circle Line as "the Inner Circle", >more than a few times (the main character often passing the time by taking a >train around the line a few dozen times, alighting at random) - did it used >to be known as this, back in the seventies, or something? >From Clive's Underground pages (which I will link to when I finish my MC resources page, but for which I have temporarily mislaid the URL - this text is quoted from a local copy): ------------------------------------- 8< ------------------------------------ Readers will note the name "Inner Circle", still used by many Londoners. "Inner" simply referred to the central position of the route with respect to London and its railways; the name was in use by 1869, well before the actual completion of the circuit. In fact, over the following decade, three other services, each in the form of a horseshoe and, in two cases, sharing track with the Inner Circle, were given names obviously modelled after it: * Middle Circle Hammersmith & City Line from Moorgate via Latimer Road to Kensington (Olympia), then District Line to Mansion House. This service ran from 1872 to 1905, though from 1900 onwards the latter terminus was cut back to Earl's Court. The service was operated by the Hammersmith & City and District Railways. * Outer Circle NLR from Broad Street to Willesden Junction, then WLR to Kensington (Olympia), then District Line to Mansion House. The route started operating on 1867-09-01 from Broad Street to Kensington (Olympia), was extended on 1869-01-01 to Victoria, and then diverted to Mansion House on 1872-02-01. It was then cut back to Earl's Court in 1909, reduced to a Willesden-Earl's Court shuttle in 1912, and finally abandoned in 1940 after bomb damage to the track at Kensington (Olympia). This was essentially a LNWR service; though the District provided the locomotives on its section and operated the shuttle from 1914-07-01 to 1914-11-21 inclusive (while the LNWR obtained electric trains). * Super Outer Circle Midland Railway from St.Pancras to Cricklewood, then Midland & South Western Joint to Acton Central, then NLR to Acton Lane Junction (see the District Line) via a chord (since removed), then District Line to Earl's Court. This was operated by the Midland Railway from 1878-05-01 to 1880-09-30. ------------------------------------- 8< ------------------------------------ So there you go. I wouldn't be surprised if, in Iris Murdoch's case, the term "Inner Circle" is also a reference to Dante. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 22 13:39:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30367 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Jun 1999 20:39:15 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jun 1999 20:39:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 28778 invoked by uid 85); 22 Jun 1999 20:39:11 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 1999 20:39:11 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990622213106.00985560@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:35:54 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Week 10 Extension Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not doing the Speaker thing tonight. Apologies for the inconvenience, but the Week End stuff is being put back by 24 hours. Technically, of course, Week 10 has already ended but I haven't checked the votes or Proposals I've received yet, so consider this a bonus. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jun 22 16:57:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30540 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Jun 1999 23:57:52 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jun 1999 23:57:52 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA03699; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:57:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003567; Wed, 23 Jun 99 09:57:39 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:56:51 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:56:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: The Circle Line Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, June 21, 1999 10:27 PM, kevan@d... [SMTP:kevan@d...] wrote: > Mildly amusing to note that my reaction to London Transport's recent > decision to close the Circle Line until August, and of the general > public's resultant outrage to it, was "Oh, come on, it's only been Power- > Failed, not Electrified." *LOL* Wonderful! I love it when life works like that. Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Wed Jun 23 14:04:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3644 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jun 1999 21:03:56 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:03:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 1641 invoked from network); 23 Jun 1999 21:03:56 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:03:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 2323 invoked by uid 85); 23 Jun 1999 21:03:49 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:03:49 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990623212847.00987a80@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:59:53 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 11 - Voting Results for Week 10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 796 Power-crazed Entrepreneur 1 2 1 3 Fails 797 Sitting On A Wall 3 1 - 3 Passes 798 Hatch-as Hatch-Can 1 1 2 3 Fails 799 He Has a Way of Saying It - 1 3 3 Fails 800 Soap Box - 2 2 3 Fails 801 easy-to-read Fosdyke Codes 4 - - 3 Passes 802 Fosdyke Updates to Actions 3 - 1 3 Passes 803 Push Down, Pop Up... 4 - - 3 Passes 804 Rebound to Work 3 1 - 3 Passes 805 Flicking Paper Clips 3 1 - 3 Passes 806 Sliced Carat 3 1 - 3 Passes 807 Eco-Hostile 3 1 - 3 Passes 808 Lie In It 3 - 1 3 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 796 (Ole) - FOR PAS - AGA - PAS - - - 797 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - - - 798 (Ole) - FOR AGA - AGA - PAS - - - 799 (Ole) - AGA AGA - AGA - PAS - - - 800 (Ole) - AGA PAS - AGA - PAS - - - 801 (Paul) - FOR FOR - FOR - FOR - - - 802 (Paul) - FOR FOR - FOR - AGA - - - 803 (Paul) - FOR FOR - FOR - FOR - - - 804 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - 805 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - 806 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - 807 (Kevan - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - 808 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - AGA - - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 16 5 0 50 16 23 -4 9 4 Halved: 8 2 25 11 -2 4 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +15 +5 +7 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -1 I -8 -1 -0 I Decisive: n +3 +0 +0 +3 n +3 +0 +0 n Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -3 a -0 -0 -0 a c c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 t +0 +0 +0 t EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 +0 i -0 -0 -0 i Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +5 v +0 +0 +0 v e e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +3 +4 +3 +3 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +6 +0 +0 +22 +4 +9 +3 Final: 11 14 2 0 47 16 15 7 7 4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - PaulWay (easy-to-read Fosdyke Codes) CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - Kevan (Rebound To Work) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - Ole (Sitting On A Wall) Clever Bear (+3) - RiffRaff For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Wed Jun 23 14:04:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3723 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jun 1999 21:04:03 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:04:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 18501 invoked from network); 23 Jun 1999 21:04:03 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:04:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 2416 invoked by uid 85); 23 Jun 1999 21:03:55 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:03:55 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990623212813.00987c20@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:59:57 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Eleven ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 809 - Night Train [Action] In Rule 1.13.1, after: Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. insert: If the Action [Night Train] is performed, the firstcoming 'skip' is ignored, but the day of the game time is still advanced at 0000. To signify this anomaly, an asterisk is inserted in the Game Time in the Game State Document. Actions that target other Players cannot be played between 0000 and 0500. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Night Train] Neut 1.13.1 -1 Bu {Comment: +- Wild -----------------------------------------------++-- Time --+ + || Sun*1945 | +------------------------------------------------------++----------+ This does require a bit of maintenance, but not much. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 810 - Gotcha! [Multiple] In Rule 1.10.1, delete: It is illegal to shunt Token Stacks to Stations which already have Token Stacks on them. In Rule 1.10.2, replace: Token Stacks may be involved in Double Shunts; however, a Player may not be Double-Shunted if the target of the original Shunt was a Token Stack. with Token Stacks may be involved in Double Shunts. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 811 - Did you see That? [Action] Rule 1.7.x - Did you see That? A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Streaking]", provided e carries no Possessions. When a Player performs "Streaking", all Players at Stations passed through by the Actioning Player Lose all eir non-Worn, non-Nantucketed Possessions. If a Streaking Player ends eir Turn at Arsenal, Wembley Park or Wimbledon, e gains an Overcoat and is transported to Tower Hill. In this case, the Streaking costs one Bronze Token in addition to the ordinary cost. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Streaking] Post 1.7.x -4 Re ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 812 - Not So Fast There! [Action] Rule 1.8.x - Not So Fast There! A Player may perform the pre-Move Action "[Speed Limit on : ]" to put such a Limit in effect. If a Line has a Speed Limit, no Player with a LV of more than may Move through any part of the said Line, unless eir Charge is greater than +100% or less than -100%, in which cases eir LV may have a value of up to twice the Limit. The cost of performing [Speed Limit] is an amount of Blue Tokens equal to the difference between the previous Speed Limit and the new Speed Limit. All Lines and Line Segments have an initial Speed Limit of 10. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Speed Limit on : ] Pre 1.8.x none varies ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 813 - Mimicry [Action] Rule 1.10.x - Mimicry A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Mimicking ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Mimickee) with the same LV and location as the Actioning Player (known as the Mimicker). For one Round, all Token losses that otherwise would happen to the Mimicker shall happen to the Mimickee instead, and all Token gains that otherwise would happen to the Mimickee shall happen to the Mimicker instead. If this leads to the Mimickee having to lose a Token e does not have, the Mimickee stops being Mimickee, while the Mimicker loses the Token in question and stops being Mimicker. No Player can be the Mimickee of two Mimickers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Mimicking ] # Post 1.10.x -3 Re {Comment: I assume that the payment of the 3 Red must occur before the Mimicking can take place. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 814 - Turner Reprise [Amendment] Remove the last paragraph of Rule 1.7.58, Turner's Declension ("Multiple Declensions can be performed in succession. The Actioning Player receives the bottom Token of each Token Stack so moved to.") { Too confusing, really, and never explained - does this suggest multiple Declensions in one Turn? Surely not, since you can only make one Move per Turn. Successive Turns, perhaps? But if you only get the Token for multiple Declensions, how should you know whether to take one after your first Declension? Is anyone really going to bother? Etc. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 815 - Jack's Tractor [Multiple] Throughout the ruleset, replace the strings "Too Big!" with "Huge", and then replace the strings "Too Big" with "Huge". { Guarding against such potential grammatical atrocities as "Easter Island statues are Too Big Possessions", and trimming extraneous punctuation. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 816 - Heading Them Off [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.20 (Token Collection Table), remove the reward for "Playing 'Pass' as eir Move". { Passing shouldn't be so appealing, really - ideally it should see no more use than the forced-Passing resulting from explosions and the like, and rarely as anything approaching strategy. Dollis Hill Loops have become rather disappointing, with most Players passing to gain a Token instead of a less-rewarding normal Move. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 817 - I Closed My Eyes And... [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.7.38 (Jekyll and Hyde Park) to:- A Player may perform the Action "[Hyde Transformation]" to gain the Hyde Mask Possession, provided they are situated at Hyde Park Corner. The Hyde Mask is a Unique Garment Possession. If a Player is wearing the Hyde Mask, e may increase or decrease eir Line Velocity by five rather than three. Also, any Actions which target the Player have their Token cost increased by one Red Token, and any Actions e performs have their Token cost reduced by one Red Token. If a Player is wearing the Hyde Mask, e may not pass through or Move to Holy Stations, nor may e perform the "[Opening MC]" Action. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 818 - Boris Call-Off [Repeal] Repeal Rule 1.8.12 (Game into Boris...) { It's far too vague and unfocused, really, with a mish-mash of minor effects. Simple, elegant states such as Sgronk are far more interesting to play with, and have far more of a 'style' to them. I can tell you off the top of my head what Sgronk does, but would struggle to remember - let alone summarise - Boris. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Wed Jun 23 14:23:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16039 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jun 1999 21:23:06 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:23:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 5886 invoked from network); 23 Jun 1999 21:23:07 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:23:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 11098 invoked by uid 85); 23 Jun 1999 21:23:02 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 21:23:02 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990623221307.0098b8c0@p...> Message-Id: <4.1.19990623221307.0098b8c0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:19:45 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Web Site Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: Three things to note about the web site this week - 1. the ruleset is now officially split. 2. the map now links to local copies of the GIFs (to guard against that day when LU finally withdraw the map) 3. the Proposal Archive Zip file has been updated. Any other neat ideas, and I'll be pleased to entertain them. Finally, a quick survey - how many of you (particularly potential Speakers) have access to Perl? I ask because I'm considering generating the MN pages much as I already do with Orangeness (www.dunx.org) and the tools used are written in Perl. I'll hold off if not enough people (or at least not the appropriate people) have access to the language. Just a thought, anyway. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 23 16:49:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13071 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jun 1999 23:49:04 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 23:49:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 22028 invoked from network); 23 Jun 1999 23:49:03 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1999 23:49:03 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA08422; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:48:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma008325; Thu, 24 Jun 99 09:48:51 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:48:02 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:48:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 - Voting Results for Week 10 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:00 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 796 (Ole) - FOR PAS - AGA - PAS - - - > 797 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - - - > 798 (Ole) - FOR AGA - AGA - PAS - - - > 799 (Ole) - AGA AGA - AGA - PAS - - - > 800 (Ole) - AGA PAS - AGA - PAS - - - > 801 (Paul) - FOR FOR - FOR - FOR - - - > 802 (Paul) - FOR FOR - FOR - AGA - - - > 803 (Paul) - FOR FOR - FOR - FOR - - - > 804 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - > 805 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - > 806 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - > 807 (Kevan - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - - > 808 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - AGA - - - Scum on a stick! I checked and double-checked that I voted this turn - and got confused with my votes for two weeks ago! Bugger! Not that it matters much, I would have voted roughly that way, and my votes wouldn't have really mattered in most of them. *sigh* Half an hour on the rack for me... Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jun 23 18:51:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20133 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 01:40:17 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 01:40:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 11611 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 01:40:16 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 01:40:16 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA28219; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:39:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma028115; Thu, 24 Jun 99 11:39:04 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:38:15 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:38:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Web Site Updates Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:20 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > Finally, a quick survey - how many of you (particularly potential > Speakers) have access to Perl? Aye. > I ask because I'm considering generating the MN pages much as I already > do with Orangeness (www.dunx.org) and the tools used are written in > Perl. I'll hold off if not enough people (or at least not the appropriate > people) have access to the language. What sort of processing do you do? AFAICS Xoom doesn't allow Perl scripted pages, so you're presumably using a tool to compile the static pages and then uploading the HTML files. Correctamundo? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 24 01:35:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6971 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 08:31:08 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 08:31:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 10734 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 08:31:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 08:31:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p424-031.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.195.31]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA16378 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:29:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <014701bebe1b$a70e9de0$62db52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <4.1.19990623212813.00987c20@p...> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:57:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Proposal 809 - Night Train [Action] Pretty simple. But we'll have to remember removing the asterisk once we're past midnight. : Proposal 810 - Gotcha! [Multiple] : Can you Shunt a Token Stack to another Stack without Double-Shunting? If you can, the prop needs repair. : : Proposal 812 - Not So Fast There! [Action] Could be quite annoying if played with a Speed Craze. This could cooperate rather nicely with some kind of Hatching or Reclolouring. : : Proposal 813 - Mimicry [Action] 'I get all your income, you get all my expenses.' I had thought of a Clamp, but that would be too much. : : Proposal 814 - Turner Reprise [Amendment] Fine. : : Proposal 815 - Jack's Tractor [Multiple] : { Guarding against such potential grammatical atrocities as "Easter Island : statues are Too Big Possessions", and trimming extraneous punctuation. } I had thought of this myself, but now you've really got my interest. Easter Island statues? Do you have a prop ready? ;-) : : Proposal 816 - Heading Them Off [Amendment] : The award for Passing is, if I understood it right, some kind of insurance. There should either be a failsafe way of getting Tokens, or a number of free Actions. Or both, of course. : : Proposal 817 - I Closed My Eyes And... [Amendment] : Basically adjusting the Mask to its new Garment status. : : Proposal 818 - Boris Call-Off [Repeal] : : Repeal Rule 1.8.12 (Game into Boris...) Well, what do we do about the Boris in Game 17? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@d... Thu Jun 24 02:30:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 7599 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 09:10:32 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 09:10:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 25361 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 09:10:31 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 09:10:31 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 1999 10:10:31 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 02:10:22 -0700 From: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7ksslu$qqj9@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.71 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Voting Strategy Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PaulWay ranted after not voting: > Scum on a stick! I checked and double-checked that I voted this turn - a= nd > got confused with my votes for two weeks ago! I can see now why you wanted the individual notifications - the thing is th= ough that I just can't guarantee that I would be able to supply notes to ind= ividuals. Rather irritatingly, eGroups' event notification system doesn't appear to d= o anything either. Would web based voting help? If I posted a CGI form which had a radio butto= n for each Proposal and kept track of who had voted? (obviously not on the X= oom site) The problem with that is authentication - I'd be a bit dubious about using = passwords because they're so easily forgotten. A possible solution would be = to have the Voter enter their email address, partly so that I can tell who h= as actually submitted the Votes and partly to send a copy of the message to = the Voter. Hmm. I would not put this forward as a replacement for the current system, but i= t might be useful as an adjunct. Thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@d... Thu Jun 24 03:17:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15118 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 09:19:08 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 09:19:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 28473 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 09:19:06 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 09:19:06 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 1999 10:19:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 02:19:01 -0700 From: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7kst65$qqku@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.71 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Web Site Updates Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PaulWay wrote: > On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:20 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] > wrote: > > I ask because I'm considering generating the MN pages much as I already= > > do with Orangeness (www.dunx.org) and the tools used are written in > > Perl. I'll hold off if not enough people (or at least not the appropria= te > > people) have access to the language. > > What sort of processing do you do? AFAICS Xoom doesn't allow Perl script= ed > pages, so you're presumably using a tool to compile the static pages and > then uploading the HTML files. Correctamundo? Absolument, monsieur. Nothing I do justifies truly active content yet, but I do like consistency = of formatting so my pages are generated from data files using a standard tem= plate on my own machine and then uploaded en masse to the server. This ensur= es, for instance, that the navigation bars at the side and bottom are derive= d from the same information. I was going to do a similar thing with the MN pages, since the look is cons= istent now but can be fiddly to maintain (it took me weeks to update the ema= il addresses in the footers after I took on the Speakership, for instance). = I do occasionally make errors in updating the URLs in the track map, too, wh= ich would be less likely in a generated world. But it's not essential, and the final HTML could always be treated as the m= aster in any case. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 24 04:34:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 28326 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 10:15:39 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 10:15:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 17956 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 10:15:39 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 10:15:39 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 1999 11:15:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:15:38 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7kt0ga$7s1s@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990623212813.00987c20@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.71 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Proposal 809 - Night Train [Action] Nicely intriguing; a very neat implementation, and one that should make for= some interesting use. > Proposal 810 - Gotcha! [Multiple] > > In Rule 1.10.1, delete: > > It is illegal to shunt Token Stacks to Stations which already have Tok= en > Stacks on them. So, um, what happens when you Shunt a Token Stack to the same Station as another one? > Proposal 811 - Did you see That? [Action] Bizarre. I know there have been a few streakings in the IMCS championships,= but I don't think any of them were strategic. This also draws attention to the fact that a Player without any Garment Possessions may be regarded as naked, which probably doesn't bear thinking about... > Proposal 812 - Not So Fast There! [Action] Very simple, very elegant; I'm surprised this hasn't been suggested before,= appalled at myself for not having thought of it. Nicely arranged; one possible weirdness in the fact that you can have negative speed limits, but nothing broken. > All Lines and Line Segments have an initial Speed Limit of 10. Ah. This does, of course, muck up Ruttsborough. On a related note, though, I wonder if it's worth doing away with the ten-LV maximum, and simply having the speed limits. If you can get the Circle Line's limit up to 17, for example, you're more than welcome to move that quickly along it... Hmm. > Proposal 813 - Mimicry [Action] This looks very dangerous, to me. When it says that "Token losses that otherwise would happen", does this include Tokens spent on Actions? Can you Mimic someone and cheerfully spend their Tokens performing all manner of Actions? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 24 04:55:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 6686 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 10:29:31 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 10:29:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 25231 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 10:29:32 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 10:29:32 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 1999 11:29:32 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 03:29:30 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7kt1aa$rpqf@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <014701bebe1b$a70e9de0$62db52c3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.71 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > : Proposal 815 - Jack's Tractor [Multiple] > > : { Guarding against such potential grammatical atrocities as "Easter Isl= and > : statues are Too Big Possessions", and trimming extraneous punctuation= . } > > I had thought of this myself, but now you've really got my interest. East= er > Island statues? Do you have a prop ready? > ;-) I think that's probably pushing it a *bit*... Maybe you could collect such = strange artifacts from British Museum, but I'm not really sure what you'd do= with them. > : Proposal 816 - Heading Them Off [Amendment] > : > > The award for Passing is, if I understood it right, some kind of insuranc= e. > There should either be a failsafe way of getting Tokens, or a number of f= ree > Actions. > Or both, of course. Originally the Token bonus for passing was, indeed, to help people who coul= dn't get Tokens any other way. I think the need for that has lessened since,= really, in that there are quite a lot of cheap Actions. This encourages Pla= yers to aim for the right Interchanges rather than just pass mindlessly, and= I can't really imagine it affecting the game adversely. > : Proposal 818 - Boris Call-Off [Repeal] > : > : Repeal Rule 1.8.12 (Game into Boris...) > > Well, what do we do about the Boris in Game 17? I'd forgotten it was there, in all honesty. If this Proposal passes then th= e Boris will just fizzle to nothing; I imagine the game will be over, or at = inevitably drawing to a conclusion, within the next week, though. (He says, tempting fate rather too much...) Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 24 05:06:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14353 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 10:39:55 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 10:39:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 14688 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 10:39:53 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 10:39:53 -0000 Received: from [195.89.137.79] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 4.30.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id hwdmiaaa for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:36:03 +0100 From: "Snow" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:33:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-Id: <10360390615554@s...> Subject: MN: Active Again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've completed the battle of the "Could not negotiate network protocol" and got myself back online. I will hence go active again. Snow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Thu Jun 24 08:35:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 3788 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 11:10:31 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 11:10:31 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 1999 12:10:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:10:11 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7kt3mj$rqlu@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <7ksslu$qqj9@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.71 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Voting Strategy Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Would web based voting help? If I posted a CGI form which had a radio but= to=3D > n for each Proposal and kept track of who had voted? (obviously not on th= e X=3D > oom site) I nearly did this a few times, albeit as a simple form which emailed voting= results to the Speaker. It wasn't hugely complicated, just a slightly-forma= tted Proposal list with a few radio-buttons after each, but was presumably a= wkward enough for me not to get around to it. I think Web-based Voting would be rather nice, and I imagine I'd use it. A = list of Voters-so-far should certainly keep people alert, too. > The problem with that is authentication - I'd be a bit dubious about usin= g =3D > passwords because they're so easily forgotten. A possible solution would = be =3D > to have the Voter enter their email address, partly so that I can tell wh= o h=3D > as actually submitted the Votes and partly to send a copy of the message = to =3D > the Voter. Since you know who's allowed to vote and who isn't, a "Who are you?" radio = button would suffice, I suppose. Sufficient warning that the Voter would be = emailed a confirmation should stop anyone considering abuse of the system. Mmm. Very nice. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 24 09:43:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7782 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 11:18:35 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 11:18:35 -0000 Received: from [195.89.137.118] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 4.30.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id ijfmiaaa for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:13:52 +0100 From: "Snow" To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:18:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <7kst65$qqku@eGroups.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-Id: <11135246818623@s...> Subject: MN: Re: Web Site Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24 Jun 99, at 2:19, dunx@d... wrote: > PaulWay wrote: > > On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:20 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] > > wrote: > > > I ask because I'm considering generating the MN pages much as I > > > already do with Orangeness (www.dunx.org) and the tools used are > > > written in Perl. I'll hold off if not enough people (or at least not > > > the appropriate people) have access to the language. There is a 32bit DOS version of Perl that everyone with Win95 or NT should be able to use. Unless "access to the language" mean "able to program Perl", but I can't see why that would be necessary. Snow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 24 16:20:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22055 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 14:04:38 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 14:04:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 31765 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 14:00:29 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 14:00:29 -0000 Received: from opus (p444-10.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.138]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02883 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:00:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201bebe49$df9ab260$8a802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <7kt0ga$7s1s@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:04:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: > Proposal 810 - Gotcha! [Multiple] > > In Rule 1.10.1, delete: > > It is illegal to shunt Token Stacks to Stations which already have Token > Stacks on them. So, um, what happens when you Shunt a Token Stack to the same Station as another one? ### Either two Stacks in one Station or Double-Shunt. The ambiguity suddenly hit me after distribution. I guess this part needs repair. > Proposal 811 - Did you see That? [Action] Bizarre. I know there have been a few streakings in the IMCS championships, but I don't think any of them were strategic. This also draws attention to the fact that a Player without any Garment Possessions may be regarded as naked, which probably doesn't bear thinking about... ### Of course, it should have been Garments. Well, take the idea and run with it. > Proposal 812 - Not So Fast There! [Action] Very simple, very elegant; I'm surprised this hasn't been suggested before, appalled at myself for not having thought of it. Nicely arranged; one possible weirdness in the fact that you can have negative speed limits, but nothing broken. > All Lines and Line Segments have an initial Speed Limit of 10. Ah. This does, of course, muck up Ruttsborough. On a related note, though, I wonder if it's worth doing away with the ten-LV maximum, and simply having the speed limits. If you can get the Circle Line's limit up to 17, for example, you're more than welcome to move that quickly along it... Hmm. ### I had thought of deleting the maximum, but decided not to, mostly to avoid possible conflicts in other parts of the rules - not that I noticed any, but... > Proposal 813 - Mimicry [Action] This looks very dangerous, to me. When it says that "Token losses that otherwise would happen", does this include Tokens spent on Actions? Can you Mimic someone and cheerfully spend their Tokens performing all manner of Actions? This was my original reply: ## Exactly. You just have to find someone with the same LV as yourself. This does make Wild a bit risky. But, you can only use eir Tokens. Once you try to use a Token not carried by the Mimickee, e is free. That means, of course, that you use eir Tokens first, and then your own. It does carry the risk of superfluous Actions just to use the Mimickee's Tokens. Hmm. ## Then I saw the word loss. Since we now have a place for Lost Property, it's a bit nebulous. Gotta rewrite it. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From dunx@d... Thu Jun 24 16:21:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23126 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 14:06:26 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 14:06:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 32430 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 14:02:07 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 14:02:07 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 1999 15:02:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:02:00 -0700 From: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7ktdoo$2jcb@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.71 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Game States Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It must be time for one of these again - onward, ever onward! Game States as of 15:00 24/6/99: Game List Rules To play Last Move [1] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 11 L'ton Long Jon 14:12 21-June-99 13 Garden Fin.Opt PaulWay 14:20 21-June-99 15 R'ton Rutts Kevan 14:47 21-June-99 16 B-T C d'E PaulWay 17:04 12-June-99 17 Cryer CtF Kevan 10:29 23-June-99 [1] all times in BST. I think. (incidentally, apologies for my last couple of posts being badly laid out -= eGroups input box is a bit odd.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Thu Jun 24 17:32:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17179 invoked by uid 7770); 24 Jun 1999 22:38:58 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 22:38:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 12856 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 21:21:41 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 21:21:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 11689 invoked by uid 85); 24 Jun 1999 21:21:37 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 21:21:37 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990624221644.0098c3e0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:18:16 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <7kt3mj$rqlu@eGroups.com> References: <7ksslu$qqj9@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Voting Strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 04:10 24/06/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Would web based voting help? If I posted a CGI form which had a radio but >to= >> n for each Proposal and kept track of who had voted? (obviously not on th >e X= >> oom site) > >I nearly did this a few times, albeit as a simple form which emailed voting > results to the Speaker. It wasn't hugely complicated, just a slightly-forma >tted Proposal list with a few radio-buttons after each, but was presumably a >wkward enough for me not to get around to it. This is approval enough - I'll have a hack around over the weekend. >I think Web-based Voting would be rather nice, and I imagine I'd use it. A >list of Voters-so-far should certainly keep people alert, too. This is why I would want to put up the web-based voter. On to the CGI manual, then... -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jun 24 20:02:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5948 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Jun 1999 02:36:57 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 02:36:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 11866 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 22:44:39 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 22:44:39 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA28910; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:44:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma028886; Fri, 25 Jun 99 08:44:28 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:43:38 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:43:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Voting Strategy Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:10 PM, dunx@d... [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > Would web based voting help? If I posted a CGI form which had a radio > button for each Proposal and kept track of who had voted? (obviously not > on the Xoom site) This sort of system had been set up on Thring and IMHO is a Good Thing. If you can do this I shall gild your statue in my personal shrine and keep lighted candles burning around it twenty-four hours a day. In some ways I think if we can get a tame server for CGI then we can start automating some of these tasks, so that Proposals get submitted to a CGI script which places them on the board for voting and so on. I'm always 'for' automating the tasks of the Speaker. > The problem with that is authentication - I'd be a bit dubious about using > passwords because they're so easily forgotten. A possible solution would > be to have the Voter enter their email address, partly so that I can tell > who has actually submitted the Votes and partly to send a copy of the > message to the Voter. *shrugs* At Thring I can't remember exactly how it was set up - obviously forging people's addresses was much more of a concern in the competitive world of Thring than in our more communal MN. I think you had to enter your email address and a confirmation of your votes was mailed out and had to be replied to. I have no objection to an initial confirmation and then use of cookies for authentication, or a password system (I have so many passwords I've invented a system for generating passwords for new sites that's easy for me to remember but hard for other people to guess. It's an computer thing.) > I would not put this forward as a replacement for the current system, but > it might be useful as an adjunct. I'm quite happy to have both. When Thring had the email system some of the tasks of the speaker were automated by the Speaker at the time using CGI scripts and so forth. A neat little Perl script that could analyse an incoming Votes mail and record the votes of a player simply would be something that would be eternally useful, I'd imagine. Or am I proposing too many technical and programming solutions to things? Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer _____________________________________________________________________ SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Thu Jun 24 20:49:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2080 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Jun 1999 03:45:17 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 03:45:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 12050 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 21:19:27 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 21:19:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 10695 invoked by uid 85); 24 Jun 1999 21:19:21 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 21:19:21 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990624221239.0098b150@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:16:03 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <11135246818623@s...> References: <7kst65$qqku@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Web Site Updates Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 12:18 24/06/99 +0100, you wrote: >On 24 Jun 99, at 2:19, dunx@d... wrote: >> PaulWay wrote: >> > On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:20 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] >> > wrote: >> > > I ask because I'm considering generating the MN pages much as I >> > > already do with Orangeness (www.dunx.org) and the tools used are >> > > written in Perl. I'll hold off if not enough people (or at least not >> > > the appropriate people) have access to the language. > >There is a 32bit DOS version of Perl that everyone with Win95 or >NT should be able to use. Unless "access to the language" mean >"able to program Perl", but I can't see why that would be necessary. Since I have that (the ActiveState distribution) installed on the Win9x partitions of both machines at home, I would have to agree. My question was really meant as a query about how widely it was installed. Being able to program in Perl is not significant in this instance. Having it installed is obviously important. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Fri Jun 25 03:09:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24456 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Jun 1999 09:53:01 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 09:53:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 5686 invoked from network); 25 Jun 1999 07:12:00 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 07:12:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 5098 invoked by uid 85); 25 Jun 1999 07:11:51 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 07:11:51 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990625074957.00997220@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:01:05 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Voting Strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 08:43 25/06/99 +1000, you wrote: >On Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:10 PM, dunx@d... [SMTP:dunx@d...] >wrote: >> Would web based voting help? If I posted a CGI form which had a radio >> button for each Proposal and kept track of who had voted? (obviously not >> on the Xoom site) > >This sort of system had been set up on Thring and IMHO is a Good Thing. If >you can do this I shall gild your statue in my personal shrine and keep >lighted candles burning around it twenty-four hours a day. Well, if it's been done before then I'm fairly sure it's doable :-) >In some ways I think if we can get a tame server for CGI then we can start >automating some of these tasks, so that Proposals get submitted to a CGI >script which places them on the board for voting and so on. I'm always >'for' automating the tasks of the Speaker. Well so am I, obviously. It's setting aside the time to redesign processes that's the difficult thing at the moment. Anyway, you may gather that dunx.org is CGI-capable. I just haven't done anything with its capabilities yet. >> I would not put this forward as a replacement for the current system, but >> it might be useful as an adjunct. > >I'm quite happy to have both. When Thring had the email system some of the >tasks of the speaker were automated by the Speaker at the time using CGI >scripts and so forth. A neat little Perl script that could analyse an >incoming Votes mail and record the votes of a player simply would be >something that would be eternally useful, I'd imagine. Also quite unlikely, I think - the formats of voting mails vary widely. There have been various attempts to automate the counting process, though - Kevan had his QBasic program, I got about half way through writing a Perl tool for the same purpose (which was too ambitious, the probable reason why it never got finished), and Snow has written a neat little program to do the same thing. Due to the process inertia I mentioned earlier, I'm not using any of these aids at the moment. >Or am I proposing too many technical and programming solutions to things? I'm not going to start pointing the finger, given my own tendency to over-technologise. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Fri Jun 25 04:17:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14697 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Jun 1999 11:17:38 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 11:17:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 22140 invoked from network); 25 Jun 1999 07:17:38 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 07:17:38 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA26522; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:17:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma026508; Fri, 25 Jun 99 17:17:23 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:16:33 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:16:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: holidays Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, I'm going on holidays from now until monday week, so I would like to announce that I will be inactive from 26th June 1999 until 6th of July 1999. Thanks, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Jun 28 00:42:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 113 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Jun 1999 07:42:33 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 1999 07:42:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 21235 invoked from network); 28 Jun 1999 07:42:33 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 1999 07:42:33 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA07901 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:47:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:45:17 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 809 - Night Train [Action] >Proposal 810 - Gotcha! [Multiple] For >Proposal 811 - Did you see That? [Action] Against >Proposal 812 - Not So Fast There! [Action] For >Proposal 813 - Mimicry [Action] Against >Proposal 814 - Turner Reprise [Amendment] >Proposal 815 - Jack's Tractor [Multiple] For >Proposal 816 - Heading Them Off [Amendment] Against >Proposal 817 - I Closed My Eyes And... [Amendment] >Proposal 818 - Boris Call-Off [Repeal] For Whoo, the auto-reminder really works! Cheers :) Proposal: Limit One (1) Per Customer Append the following to the end of Rule 0.9.4 - Fish and Fowl No single move may be awarded the Who's A Clever Bear trophy more than once, no matter how many times it was Nominated. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Jun 28 00:43:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 533 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Jun 1999 07:43:39 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 1999 07:43:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 21340 invoked from network); 28 Jun 1999 07:43:39 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 1999 07:43:39 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA08103 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:49:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:46:23 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 11 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Argh! Damn my eyes! --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 29 14:12:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30939 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Jun 1999 21:12:28 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 21:12:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 12332 invoked from network); 29 Jun 1999 21:12:29 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 21:12:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 14828 invoked by uid 85); 29 Jun 1999 21:12:22 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 21:12:22 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990629215640.0099e9a0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:08:08 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 12 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twelve ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 819 - What IS this stuff? [Multiple] Rule 1.9.x - Goo! A Player possessing a Goo Gun may perform the Action of "[Goo on ]". If the Goo Gun has a Voltage of 'n', can be a Station 'n' or fewer Stations from the location of the Actioning Player, but only in a straight line. Alternatively, can be a Station which the Actioning Player's Piece has passed through during eir Turn. When the Action [Goo on ] is played, the Station in question becomes Gooey for one Round. Any Move passing through or beginning at a Gooey Station requires a LV one higher than otherwise required. If several Gooey Stations are involved, the required LV is adjusted once for each such Station. Rule 1.4.x - Sticky! A Goo Gun is a Small Possession, and has an initial Voltage of 0 (zero). The Voltage of a Goo Gun can be increased by 'X' by playing the Action [Voltage+X], but only if the Actioning Player has played the Action [LV-X] previously in eir Turn, with X having the same value in both Actions. The Voltage of a Goo Gun is set to 0 (zero) when the Action [Goo on ] is played. In the Luggage Rack, "Goo Gun(6)" is a Goo Gun with a Voltage of 6. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Goo on ] Neut 1.9.x -1 Bu [Voltage+X] Neut 1.4.x none +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Goo Gun(0) | 3 Br | Small | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 820 - Like Dominoes [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.2 - Line 'Em Up, Knock 'Em Down change The validity and rewards of a Double-Shunt are identical to that of a normal Shunt, treated as if the Actioning Player Shunted the Double- Shunted Player directly, except that the Actioning Player's LV is considered to be that which it was during eir Move (since it will have been set to zero by the first Shunt). to The validity and rewards of a Double-Shunt are identical to that of a normal Shunt, treated as if the Actioning Player Shunted the Double- Shunted Player directly, except that the Actioning Player's LV is considered to be that which was used in the first Shunt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 821 - Jespersen Manoeuvre [Enactment] I propose: Rule 1.16.x - Jespersen Manoeuvres If a Player believes that another Player has performed an Action which, though in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, is too powerful for its cost and duration, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may announce that the said Action is a Jespersen Manoeuvre. This is done by posting a message to the relevant Game Lounge, detailing the effects of the Manoeuvre. When a Jespersen Manoeuvre has been announced, the dubious Action may not be performed until one of the following has happened: * the Nomic Week after the announcement of the Jespersen Manoeuvre has ended, * the Rule detailing the said Action has been amended, or * an Emergency Proposal to amend the wording of the Action has been defeated. The Player performing the Jespersen Manoeuvre gains one Kudo. The Player announcing the Jespersen Manoeuvre gains one Kudo if the Rule detailing the Action is amended before the end of the Nomic Week after the announcement. {Kind of a soft Buzz} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 822 - Down and Out [Multiple] In Rule 3.1.1 - Chateau d'Eau after: Loop Trap: Miromesnil insert: Lost Property Office: Gare d'Austerlitz(5,10,C) Prison (Tower Hill equivalent): Bastille(1,5,8) Holding Stations (Rule 1.14.3): Chateaau d'Eau(4), Republique(3,5,8,9,11) and Les Halles(4) and at the end of the the rule, insert: Stations connected by dash lines (e.g. Rue de la Pompe(9) and Avenue Henri Martin(C)) are within Walking distance of each other. Stations connected with double lines (e.g. Gare du Nord(4,5,B,D) and La Chapelle(2)) have an Escalator Link. New Rule 3.1.6 - Eating with the Locals Instead of these Victuals: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | British Rail Coffee | 3 Br | Edible | | Chocolate Bar | 1 Br | Small, Edible, Dispensable | | Lukewarm Burger | 4 Br | Edible | | Marmalade Sandwich | 2 Br | Edible | | Overpriced Baguette | 5 Br | Edible | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ these are available: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | SNCF Tea | 3 Br | Edible | | Saucissons Sec | 1 Br | Small, Edible, Dispensable | | Escargot | 4 Br | Edible | | Brie | 2 Br | Edible | | Choucroute | 5 Br | Edible | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ Each of these Victuals has the same uses as its London equivalent. Eating the Brie permits a Special Move to Ch. de Gaulle-Etoile(1,2,6,A). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 823 - Limit One (1) Per Customer [Amendment] Append the following to the end of Rule 0.9.4 - Fish and Fowl No single move may be awarded the Who's A Clever Bear trophy more than once, no matter how many times it was Nominated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 824 - To The End [Multiple] 1. He Who Laughs Last [Amendment] To Rule 1.1.3 (Resignation), add:- If, after a Resignation, there is only one non-Drone Player remaining in the Game, e is considered to have Won. E may optionally submit a GSD detailing the further Moves necessary for a victory. 2. Stalemate [Enactment: 1.1] If all Active non-Drone Players of a Game are agreed that that Game has reached a point of Stalemate, the Speaker may declare that that Game is over; the Game ends, and no Players are considered to have Won or Lost. Stalemate is defined as the point at which no Player can possibly reach victory conditions within a reasonable time limit. This definition is deliberately vague and open to interpretation and discussion, but Players are encouraged to acknowledge a reasonable Stalemate rather than simply adjusting the Ruleset so that the Stalemate is broken (particularly if the Stalemate was intentional). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 825 - Caffeine Rush [Amendment] To the Coffee section of Rule 1.4.16 (Playing with Food), add:- When a Player performs the Action "[Eating British Rail Coffee]", all Actions performed during the remainder of eir Turn have their durations halved. { Only Actions, though - drinking Coffee doesn't speed the trains up. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 826 - Tube Rats Ate My Zone Pass [Multiple] { The other animal-kingdom residents of the London Underground, and more fitting than Pigeons, if anything (cf. Neverwhere). } 1. Not Hampsters [Enactment] Rats exist in the Game, as Possessions. No Player may carry more than four Rats at any one time. If this limit is exceeded at the end of that Player's Turn, then the number of Rats carried shall be reduced accordingly. Rats have quite an appetite. If, at the end of any Turn, a Player carries one or more Rats and any number of Edible or Papery Possessions, all of eir Edible and Papery Possessions are destroyed. In addition, if no Rats have actually been caught that Turn, and more than two Rats are held by the Player, then a single Rat escapes the Player's grasp and the number of Rats held is reduced by one. Any Player may perform the post-Move Action "[Catching Rat]" to add a Rat to eir Inventory, provided that their Piece is situated at a Closed Station, or a Station which lies solely on a Line which is Under Construction. If the Actioning Player is carrying a Lukewarm Burger, e instead adds three Rats to eir Inventory. Any Player may perform the post-Move Action "[Releasing Rat]", to set a single Rat free. Upon performing this Action, one Rat carried by the Actioning Player is removed from eir Luggage. If any Players sharing a Station with the Actioning Player are carrying an Edible or Papery Possession, the Actioning Player may place a Rat in one of those Players' Luggages. This Action may be performed multiple times during a single Turn. 2. Nyeeer [Amendment] Add the following Actions:- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Catching Rat] Post 1.4.x [Releasing Rat] Post 1.4.x ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Equality in the Workplace [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.54 (Cunningly Fashioned Out Of Pure Green), replace "single Pigeon" with "small creature", and "a Pigeon" with "a Pigeon or Rat,". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jun 29 14:12:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31112 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Jun 1999 21:12:42 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 21:12:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 31179 invoked from network); 29 Jun 1999 21:12:43 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 21:12:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 14911 invoked by uid 85); 29 Jun 1999 21:12:32 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 21:12:32 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990629215602.00951340@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:08:14 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 12 - Voting Results for Week 11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 809 Night Train 4 1 2 4 Passes 810 Gotcha! 4 1 2 4 Passes 811 Did You See That? 4 1 2 4 Passes 812 Not So Fast There! 6 1 - 4 Passes 813 Mimicry - 1 6 4 Fails 814 Turner Reprise 5 1 1 4 Passes 815 Jack's Tractor 6 1 - 4 Passes 816 Heading Them Off 1 1 5 4 Fails 817 I Closed My Eyes And ... 6 1 - 4 Passes 818 Boris Call-Off 5 1 1 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 809 (Ole) - AGA FOR - FOR - PAS AGA FOR FOR 810 (Ole) - FOR AGA - AGA - PAS FOR FOR FOR 811 (Ole) - FOR FOR - AGA - PAS FOR AGA FOR 812 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS FOR FOR FOR 813 (Ole) - AGA AGA - AGA - PAS AGA AGA AGA 814 (Kevan) - FOR AGA - PAS - FOR FOR FOR FOR 815 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR FOR FOR 816 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - PAS - AGA AGA AGA AGA 817 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR FOR FOR 818 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR FOR AGA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 14 2 0 47 16 15 11 7 4 Halved: 7 1 23 7 3 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +23 +18 +0 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -7 I -12 I -0 -0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 n +3 n +3 +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 +0 a -0 a -0 -0 c c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 t +0 t +0 +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 +0 i -0 i -0 -0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +0 v +5 v +0 +5 e e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +3 +4 +0 +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +6 +3 +0 +22 +18 +3 +8 Final: 11 13 4 0 45 16 25 11 6 10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - none CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - Kevan (Turner Reprise) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - Ole (Not So Fast There!) Clever Bear (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Fri Jul 2 00:52:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 32411 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jul 1999 07:52:19 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 1999 07:52:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 11631 invoked from network); 2 Jul 1999 07:52:20 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 1999 07:52:20 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 1999 08:52:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 00:52:14 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7lhr3e$42qb@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990629215640.0099e9a0@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.73 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 12 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 819 - What IS this stuff? [Multiple] The "gun" aspect is very nicely implemented, but the ammo seems rather uninspiring; I can't see there being much use for something which does little more (in effect) than maybe decrease a Player's LV by one. Admittedly gooing up a whole Line could be problematic, but at one Station a Turn, and paying for the Voltage, it seems more effort than it's worth. A gun that could knock Player's Tokens away, or blow up Stations from afar would be far more useful and interesting, I suspect... >Proposal 820 - Like Dominoes [Amendment] Very good. Double-Shunting is, er, still completely illegal, though, since there's no way to perform it as the first post-Move Action (all Actions in that Section having to be performed as such, and Double- Shunting not being listed as an exception). Something to fix for next Week, I suppose. I've plans to take a large hammer to the whole "singularity / targetted Actions" business, anyway. >Proposal 821 - Jespersen Manoeuvre [Enactment] Not bad; it'd probably help to formalise this, since we frequently seem to criticise something we notice during play, but forget to do anything about it. As it stands it's a little strange in that nobody seems able to question the Jespersen cry - what's to stop me, for instance, saying that nobody else can use the Blocking Action until its Rule gets amended? The Kudos reward seems incredibly small beer, incidentally, and might as well not be there - encouraging people to decry certain Actions as broken probably isn't a good thing anyway. >Proposal 822 - Down and Out [Multiple] Good stuff, particularly the comestibles. >Proposal 823 - Limit One (1) Per Customer [Amendment] > >Append the following to the end of Rule 0.9.4 - Fish and Fowl > > No single move may be awarded the Who's A Clever Bear trophy more than > once, no matter how many times it was Nominated. Er, how would it possible to award more than one in this fashion, if only one is awarded per Week, and only Moves made in the past Week are valid candidates? Or am I missing something? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Fri Jul 2 01:54:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28359 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Jul 1999 08:54:53 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 1999 08:54:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 20043 invoked from network); 2 Jul 1999 08:54:53 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 1999 08:54:53 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id FAA26599 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 05:00:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 04:57:38 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 12 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Proposal 823 - Limit One (1) Per Customer [Amendment] >> >>Append the following to the end of Rule 0.9.4 - Fish and Fowl >> >> No single move may be awarded the Who's A Clever Bear trophy more than >> once, no matter how many times it was Nominated. > >Er, how would it possible to award more than one in this fashion, if >only one is awarded per Week, and only Moves made in the past Week are >valid candidates? Or am I missing something? The rule doesn't specify that you can't Applaud moves made in the previous Week; it only implies that you can't Applaud a move (small-m) if that Player has taken another turn since then. "...a Player who feels that another Player has *just* made such a move may perform the Action [Applauding ]." (Emphasis on 'just' is mine.) Anyway, we've already seen it happen once: when I took the Aubergine Flag in Game 17, I nominated the move, and then you did (as Drone). Then the Week ended, and then Ole took his turn and Nominated it again. Not that Dunx awarded the trophy twice, but I figured I'd throw this in just to clairify. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jul 3 10:07:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28976 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jul 1999 17:07:51 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 1999 17:07:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 7714 invoked from network); 3 Jul 1999 17:07:52 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 1999 17:07:52 -0000 Received: from opus (p449-24.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.24]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA04176 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01c201bec576$8bdecd80$18832fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <7lhr3e$42qb@eGroups.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:51:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 12 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : >Proposal 819 - What IS this stuff? [Multiple] : : A gun that could knock Player's Tokens away, or blow up Stations from : afar would be far more useful and interesting, I suspect... You might be right. The Goo was lifted from RoboRally, where the LV-equivalent seldom goes above 3, so it might be a bit weak here. I didn't want to propose heavy artillery right away, but once we have a small gun, we can use the mechanics for other ballistics, too. The Goo Gun could be improved by defining what might happen to a player hit by the Goo. It might get cheaper, and/or easier to reload, too. : : >Proposal 820 - Like Dominoes [Amendment] : : Very good. Double-Shunting is, er, still completely illegal, though, : since there's no way to perform it as the first post-Move Action (all : Actions in that Section having to be performed as such, and Double- : Shunting not being listed as an exception). Something to fix for next : Week, I suppose. I've plans to take a large hammer to the whole : "singularity / targetted Actions" business, anyway. I trust you'll find a way of legalising Double-Shunting. I wonder, btw, about Rules 0.2.8, 1.10.0 and 1.10.2. 0.2.8 says that the Rules should work together, and that the specific should take precedence over the general, as well as the explicit over the implicit. 1.10.0 is general and explicit in disallowing secondary targeting. 1.10.2 is specific, but implicit re 1.10.0 in allowing Double-Shunting. 1.10.2 is, amusingly, an exception to 1.10.0 in allowing targeting without (S0,L0). : : >Proposal 821 - Jespersen Manoeuvre [Enactment] : : As it stands it's a little strange in that nobody seems able : to question the Jespersen cry - what's to stop me, for instance, : saying that nobody else can use the Blocking Action until its Rule gets : amended? The three ways of ending the Jespersen status are: a time limit, an amendment, and the defeat of an Emergency Prop. Only one of these is needed to end Jespersen. If nobody wants to change the rule, the Jespersen will go away after a week and a half or so. If the rule is so broken that an EP is necessary, the Jespersen will go away earlier. : : The Kudos reward seems incredibly small beer, incidentally, and might : as well not be there - encouraging people to decry certain Actions as : broken probably isn't a good thing anyway. If you Jespersen one of my Actions, I will gain a Kudo. If the rule isn't fixed, you'll gain nothing. And you can't Jespersen your own Actions. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jul 3 10:08:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29056 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Jul 1999 17:08:02 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 1999 17:08:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 3685 invoked from network); 3 Jul 1999 17:08:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 1999 17:08:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p449-24.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.24]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA04244 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:08:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01c401bec576$92842860$18832fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <4.1.19990629215640.0099e9a0@p...> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:13:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 12 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : : Proposal 824 - To The End [Multiple] : : 1. He Who Laughs Last [Amendment] : : 2. Stalemate [Enactment: 1.1] : Nice indeed. : : Proposal 825 - Caffeine Rush [Amendment] : : { Only Actions, though - drinking Coffee doesn't speed the trains up. } That would depend on who drank the stuff, I guess. : : Proposal 826 - Tube Rats Ate My Zone Pass [Multiple] : : Rats exist in the Game, as Possessions. I suspect that would make them Medium-sized. : : In Rule 1.7.54 (Cunningly Fashioned Out Of Pure Green), replace "single : Pigeon" with "small creature", and "a Pigeon" with "a Pigeon or Rat,". : Is this a problem? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Sun Jul 4 12:01:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13132 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Jul 1999 19:01:39 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 1999 19:01:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 6933 invoked from network); 4 Jul 1999 19:01:39 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 1999 19:01:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 13764 invoked by uid 85); 4 Jul 1999 19:01:35 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 1999 19:01:35 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990704195257.0093ea00@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 19:57:22 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Voting Booth Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: If you visit the Mornomic web pages, you will see a new link to the Voting Booth. This is a simple CGI proggy which collects your votes and comments and mails them to your Speaker. As an authentication mechanism, you will be mailed a copy of the votes you enter. If you vote using the Voting Booth and do not receive an email confirmation, then please let me know - I may have put the wrong address in the data file. See what you think, anyway. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Mon Jul 5 06:18:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 17856 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jul 1999 13:18:09 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 1999 13:18:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 30315 invoked from network); 5 Jul 1999 13:18:08 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 1999 13:18:08 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.5] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 1999 14:18:08 -0000 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 06:18:06 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7lqbae$cqqi@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990704195257.0093ea00@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.73 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Voting Booth Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you visit the Mornomic web pages, you will see a new link to the > Voting Booth. This is a simple CGI proggy which collects your votes and > comments and mails them to your Speaker. Absolutely excellent stuff, Ellis; it makes Voting a far more elegant and pleasurable experience, and seems a long overdue addition to the game. Bravo. > As an authentication mechanism, you will be mailed a copy of the votes > you enter. If you vote using the Voting Booth and do not receive an > email confirmation, then please let me know - I may have put the wrong > address in the data file. I've gotten mine alright. I suppose such is a reasonable enough way of stopping abuse of the system; there's the mild issue of someone maybe wandering through the site and messing about with things at random, which could potentially muck things up if the abused Voter didn't check eir mail soon enough, but I can't imagine this would ever really happen. Making the Voting Booth secret would solve it, but I'd probably forget how to find it, and it'd seem a shame not to showcase such a fine addition to the Nomic. Kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Mon Jul 5 13:23:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22060 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Jul 1999 20:23:40 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 1999 20:23:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 10275 invoked from network); 5 Jul 1999 20:23:40 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 1999 20:23:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 9973 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jul 1999 20:23:34 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 1999 20:23:34 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990705194242.00956120@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 21:19:12 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <7lqbae$cqqi@eGroups.com> References: <4.1.19990704195257.0093ea00@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Voting Booth Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: >> If you visit the Mornomic web pages, you will see a new link to the >> Voting Booth. This is a simple CGI proggy which collects your votes >and >> comments and mails them to your Speaker. > >it makes Voting a far more elegant >and pleasurable experience, and seems a long overdue addition to the >game. Bravo. Most kind - it was an ideal opportunity for me to exercise my CGI skills. More of this kind of server-based shenanigans to follow, I don't doubt. >> As an authentication mechanism, you will be mailed a copy of the votes >> you enter. If you vote using the Voting Booth and do not receive an >> email confirmation, then please let me know - I may have put the wrong >> address in the data file. > >I've gotten mine alright. I suppose such is a reasonable enough way of >stopping abuse of the system; there's the mild issue of someone maybe >wandering through the site and messing about with things at random, I did ponder that possibility, and decided it was sufficiently unlikely to not worry about. The incidence of spam at !York and MCiOS is pretty low, and those sites offer immediate interaction as an incentive. If there's a real problem, the simplest solution would probably to issue passwords. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jul 6 15:41:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29764 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jul 1999 22:41:38 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 22:41:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 16801 invoked from network); 6 Jul 1999 22:41:37 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 22:41:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 20218 invoked by uid 85); 6 Jul 1999 22:41:26 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 22:41:26 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990706233602.0095dab0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:37:08 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirteen ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 827 - The Fast Game [Special] /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - The Fast Game \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Fast Game In the Fast Game, the Players have 24 hours to submit eir Turn, instead of the 36 hours mentioned in Rule 1.3.5. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 828 - Better Goo [Multiple] If Proposal 819 has been adopted: 1.1 In Rule 1.9.x - Goo! replace When the Action [Goo on ] is played, the Station in question becomes Gooey for one Round. with When the Action [Goo on ] is played, the Station in question becomes Gooey until a Player passes through the Station during eir Move. A Gooey Station is marked in the GSD with (Goo) 1.2 In Rule 1.9.x - Goo! after Any Move passing through or beginning at a Gooey Station requires a LV one higher than otherwise required. If several Gooey Stations are involved, the required LV is adjusted once for each such Station. insert When [Goo on ] is played, and a Player is occupying the said Station, the said Player becomes Gooey, and 'Goo' (a Small, Indestructible Possession) is placed in eir Luggage Rack. A Gooey Player needs a LV one higher than otherwise required. If a Gooey Player performs any Action that requires the Player to have a Papery Possession, e destroys the Papery Possession as well as the Goo in the process. A Gooey Player crossing the river stops being Gooey(thus destructing the Goo). {How come Indestructible means Destructible In Defined Ways?} 2. In Rule 1.4.x - Sticky! replace The Voltage of a Goo Gun can be increased by 'X' by playing the Action [Voltage+X], but only if the Actioning Player has played the Action [LV-X] previously in eir Turn, with X having the same value in both Actions with The Voltage of a Goo Gun can be increased by 'X' by playing the Action [Voltage+X], but only if the Actioning Player has played the Action [LV-X] or [LV+X] previously in eir Turn, with X having the same value in both Actions. {That should increase the demand for Goo Guns, I hope.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 829 - Bull's Eye [Multiple] This proposal is in 4 parts. 1. Don't Shoot till You see the Red in his Eye [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.0 - Target Practice, replace Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that Action. with These Actions fall in several groups: 1. The Shunt Group (Rules 1.10.1.x): Actions that cause another Piece at the same Station as the Actioning Player's Piece to be moved. 2. The Clamp Group (Rules 1.10.2.x): Actions that create a Possession in the Luggage Rack of another Player at the same Station as the Actioning Player. 3. The Shadowing Group (Rules 1.10.3.x): Actions that change the LV, Charge and/or Token count of the Actioning Player and/or another Player at the same Station as the Actioning Player, based on the attributes of either Player. 4. Other Targeting Actions (Rules 1.10.4.x). The Actioning Player may perform no more than one Action of groups 1-3 on any given other Player. If an Action falls in more than one group, it is still counted as one Action. 2. I'm No Peter Pan [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.5 - The Coming of Shadows replace A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Shadowing ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Shadowed Player) whose Piece's location is that of the Actioning Player's Piece. with A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Shadowing ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Shadowed Player) who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. 3. Never Mix Business and Pleasure [Renumbering] Renumber Rule 1.10, thus: 1.10.0 (current 1.10.0, amended as above) 1.10.1 The Shunt Group 1.10.2 The Clamp Group 1.10.3 The Shadowing Group 1.10.4 Other Targeting Actions 1.10.1 The Shunt Group 1.10.1.1 (current 1.10.1) - A Shunting We Will Go 1.10.1.2 (current 1.10.3) - Dead-End Shunts 1.10.1.3 (current 1.10.17) - Stationary Shunts 1.10.2 The Clamp Group 1.10.2.1 (current 1.10.6) - The Velocity Bomb 1.10.2.2 (current 1.10.7) - Open the Cutlery Drawer, Mrs Higgins 1.10.2.3 (current 1.10.8) - The Narg Clamp explained 1.10.2.4 (current 1.10.9) - The Green Clamp 1.10.2.5 (current 1.10.10) - The Freem Clamp explained 1.10.2.6 (current 1.10.11) - Vermicious Knids 1.10.2.7 (current 1.10.13) - Consider Yourself Toffed 1.10.2.8 (current 1.10.14) - Magno-Clamps 1.10.2.9 (current 1.10.18) - Radiation 1.10.3 The Shadowing Group 1.10.3.1 (current 1.10.5) - The Coming of Shadows 1.10.3.2 (current 1.10.15) - But No Taxi 1.10.3.3 (current 1.10.16) - Blonk Cheque 1.10.4 Other Targeting Actions 1.10.4.1 (current 1.10.2) - Line 'Em Up, Knock 'Em Down 1.10.4.2 (current 1.10.12) - Knerdling {This leads to a number of derived changes: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Anti-Narg] # Post 1.10.2.3 1Bk [Attracting] Neut 1.10.2.8 varies [Blonking ] Post 1.10.3.3 20 1Re [Dead-End Shunting to Post 1.10.1.2 1Re (S=LV) ] # [Degreening] Post 1.10.2.4 2Gr [De-Knidding] Post 1.10.2.6 [De-Radiating] Neut 1.10.2.9 1Re,1Bu [De-Toffing] Post 1.10.2.7 1Bk [Freeming ] # Post 1.10.2.5 20 1Re,1Gr (S0,L0) [Freem-away!] Post 1.10.2.5 [Greening ] # Post 1.10.2.4 20 2Gr (S0,L0) [Huffing ] Post 1.10.3.2 (S0,L0) [Knerdling] Pre 1.10.4.2 2Re [Knidding ] # Post 1.10.2.6 20 4Re (S0,L0) [Magno-Clamping ] # Neut 1.10.2.8 1Gr [Magno-Gone] Neut 1.10.2.8 [Narging ] # Post 1.10.2.3 20 3Re (S0,L0) [Radiating ] Neut 1.10.2.9 3Re (S0,L0) [Radio Clamp LV+X] Post 1.10.2.9 1Re [Radio Clamp LV-X] Post 1.10.2.9 1Re [Radio Clamp to ] Neut 1.10.2.9 1Re [Removing Velocity Bomb] Neut 1.10.2.1 2Si [Shadowing ] # Post 1.10.3.1 (S0,L0) [Shunting to Post 1.10.1.1 1Re (S0,L0) ] # [Spooning ] Post 1.10.2.2 20 1Go (S0,L0) [Stationary-Shunting Post 1.10.1.3 1Re (S0,L0) to ] [Toffing ] # Post 1.10.2.7 20 2Re,1Gr (S0,L0) [Unspoon] Post 1.10.2.2 5 any [Velocity-Bombing ] Post 1.10.2.1 3Re In Rule 3.0.1, (1) the mention of Rule 1.10.7 shall be changed to refer to Rule 1.10.2.2. In Rule 3.0.1, (4) -"British Rail"... the mention of Rule 1.10.6 shall be changed to refer to Rule 1.10.2.1. } 4. Repeal Rule 2.4.5 [Repeal] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 830 - The Envelope, Please... [Amendment] Amend Rule 0.9.4 to read thus: Each Nomic Week, several bonus Kudos Awards may be given out after Voting. These awards are administrated by the Speaker and are either Automatic, nominated to a specific Player during a Game, or nominated to a specific Proposal during Voting. Automatic Awards - these awards are given out every Week without the need for any nomination. * For E's a Jolly Good Fellow Award: +3 Kudos to the Speaker, for doing a grand job. Nominated In Game - these awards are nominated by Players during a Game as described for each Award. * Who's a Clever Bear? Award: +3 Kudos to the most nominated Player A player who feels that e has just performed a particularly clever or stylish sequence of Actions may perform the Action [Taking a Bow] immediately afterwards. Similarly, a Player who feels that another Player has just made such a move may perform the Action [Applauding ]. Clarifying comments may be added in the Comments section of the GSD, if desired, and the play in question is considered Nominated. At the week's end, the Speaker will consider all moves so Nominated during the previous week, and award the Who's a Clever Bear? trophy to the Player whose move e deems to be the cleverest of the lot. (The Speaker may decline to award the Trophy if the only candidate is self-Nominated, and the Speaker feels the move in question to be unworthy.) The Speaker may give this Award to emself, provided that e was Nominated by another Player, and that there are no other Nominations that week. Nominated In Voting - these awards are nominated by Players with eir Votes. Each Player who is eligible to Vote may nominate one of the Week's Proposal for each of these Awards, although if a Player feels that no Proposal is suitable for an Award then e may decline to nominate anything. A Player may not nominate any of eir own Proposals. On completion of Voting, the Speaker shall tally the nominations for each Award and give the Kudos bonus to the Player who submitted the most nominated Proposal, provided that this Proposal received more than one nomination. In the event of a tie for an Award, all Players submitting a winning Proposal shall receive the bonus Kudos. If the same Player has submitted more than one winning Proposal for a particular award, e only receives one Kudos bonus for that Award. The awards are * Ruttsborough Award for Grandiosity: +1 Kudos/FOR vote to the most nominated Proposal. Awarded to Proposals that are particularly ambitious in scope and scale. Each vote For this Proposal shall score 2 Kudos for the Proposer instead of the usual 1. * IMCS Clarity Award: +3 Kudos to the most nominated Proposal. Awarded to Proposals that are particularly clear and concise. The Proposal need not be short, but its wording must be particularly clear and unambiguious. The Proposer shall receive a bonus +3 Kudos points. * CAMREC Cleanup Award: +3 Kudos to the most nominated Proposal. Awarded to Proposals that make particularly pertinent or perspicacious Amendments to the ruleset, e.g. fixing a loophole or a broken Rule. If the Proposal does so in some style, all the better. The Proposer shall receive a bonus +3 Kudos points. * Mrs Trellis Award for Entertainment: +4 Kudos to the most nominated Proposal. Awarded to Proposals that are particularly entertaining, amusing or just plain daft; Proposals that add to the fun of playing Mornington Nomic. The Proposer shall receive a bonus +4 Kudos points. { Comment: the main point of this is to enable Player nomination of Awards rather than forcing the Speaker to choose, but I've taken the opportunity to try and tidy up some of the wording which has degraded somewhat with other changes. Note that some previous restrictions have changed: 1. the Speaker can now receive Proposal awards, but since e can't nominate emself there isn't much scope for abuse. I nearly added a clause banning the Speaker from nominating since e is the only one who knows who has made the Proposals, but decided against it because it doesn't matter - in this scheme the Speaker only has one nomination, after all. 2. more than one Proposal can receive a particular Award - this was to avoid the need for the Speaker to have a casting vote and reintroduce the same kind of decisions this Proposal is intended to remove. 3. one Proposal can receive multiple awards. One thing that is arguably missing from this reworking is the requirement to publish the nominations received. Easily added later, though. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 831 - Indigestion [Amendment] Um, remove the last paragraph of Rule 1.4.16 (Playing with Food):- "The Actioning Player's LV is automatically decreased by an amount equal to the cost of that Victual in Bronze Tokens during eir next Turn. In both cases, the LV increase and decrease are applied after any other LV adjustments, and before the Move." { I hope it's not just me that's been forgetting to do this; I thought we lost this clause *weeks* ago. Oh well. As things are, a one-off no-strings LV boost seems to be reasonable enough, after the cost of buying the thing in the first place, and the lengthy eating process. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 832 - Buck the Pass [Multiple] 1. An End To Handouts [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.20 (Token Collection Table), remove the reward for playing "Pass" as one's Move. 2. Beggars *Can* Be Choosers [Action] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Begging] Neut 1.7.x +1 Plastic ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Player may perform the Action "[Begging]" if e has played a Move of "Pass" this Turn. Upon performing this Action, e may gain one Plastic Token of a colour of eir choice, provided that e has no more than two Tokens of that colour already. { Passing should be, I feel, something you do when you really can't do anything else, bringing no particular benefit by itself. As commented, the habit of Dollis Hill Loops to descend into tedious Passing is particularly disappointing, as is the "oh, I might as well grab a Blue while I'm here" sideline of Pigeon Catchers, mad Bombers and the rest. This removes the benefit for Passing, but allows a Begging Action which can be used to get Tokens if you're short of them (which was the original intent of the Passing bonus). Reasonable replacement? } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 833 - Hitting the Ground Running [Amendment] To Rule 1.8.1 (Dollis Hill Loop), add the paragraph:- If a Player performs a Special Move to Dollis Hill, eir LV is not adjusted as it would normally be. { So that building up LV in a DH Loop is actually *possible*... } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 834 - Anti-Narcissism [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.5 (The Coming of Shadows), replace "is a Player" with "is another Player". { Shadowing yourself is permissible and ludicrous, as things stand. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 835 - Brown and Sticky [Amendment] Move Rule 1.10.12 (Knerdling) to Section 1.4, since it's a Possession thing, rather than an offensive, targetted or post-Move Action... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 836 - Finding all the time [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.53, change A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding], but only between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays. to A Player can perform the 30-minute Post-Move Action of [Finding]. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jul 6 15:41:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29924 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jul 1999 22:41:51 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 22:41:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18716 invoked from network); 6 Jul 1999 22:41:52 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 22:41:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 20308 invoked by uid 85); 6 Jul 1999 22:41:39 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 22:41:39 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990706233349.0091f610@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:37:32 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 13 - Votes for Week 12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 819 What IS This Stuff? 1 1 3 4 Fails 820 Like Dominoes 3 1 1 4 Passes 821 Jesperson Manoeuvre 1 1 3 4 Fails 822 Down and Out 3 2 - 4 Passes 823 Limit One (1) Per Customer 5 - - 4 Passes 824 To The End 4 1 - 4 Passes 825 Caffeine Rush 4 1 - 4 Passes 826 Tube Rats Are My Zone Pass 4 1 - 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 819 (Ole) - FOR AGA - AGA - PAS - - AGA 820 (Ole) - FOR AGA - FOR - PAS - - FOR 821 (Ole) - AGA FOR - AGA - PAS - - AGA 822 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS - - PAS 823 (Riff) - FOR FOR - FOR - FOR - - FOR 824 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - FOR 825 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - FOR 826 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR - - FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 13 4 0 45 16 25 11 6 5 Halved: 6 2 22 12 5 3 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +12 +8 +0 +5 +0 AGA Votes: I -0 -0 -0 -0 I -7 -0 -0 -0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 n +3 +0 +0 +0 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 +0 a -0 -0 -0 -0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 t +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 +0 i -0 -0 -0 -0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +5 v +5 +0 +0 +0 e e Awards: +3 +0 +0 +3 +7 +0 +0 +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +6 +3 +0 +23 +16 +0 +5 +0 Final: 11 12 5 0 45 16 28 5 8 2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - Ole (What IS This Stuff?) CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - Kevan (To The End) Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - Ole (Down and Out) Clever Bear (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jul 6 16:24:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27026 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jul 1999 23:24:28 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 23:24:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 25122 invoked from network); 6 Jul 1999 23:24:28 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 23:24:28 -0000 Received: from opus (p451-4.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.132.4]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA25382; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:24:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <05b201bec806$a12a1040$43d852c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" , "Speaker Dunx" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:59:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Withdrawal of Prop 828 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since Prop 819 failed, I withdraw Prop 828. Feel free to comment on it, though. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jul 6 16:38:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3927 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Jul 1999 23:38:19 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 23:38:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 27898 invoked from network); 6 Jul 1999 23:38:19 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 23:38:19 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA19313; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:38:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019198; Wed, 7 Jul 99 09:38:08 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:37:07 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:37:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: resurfacing from darkest Townsville Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heigh ho, Just announcing my return to play after the holidays. I'll get into playing as soon as possible. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jul 7 07:47:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13132 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jul 1999 14:47:07 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 14:47:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 2212 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 14:47:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 14:47:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p416-012.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.219.140]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03763 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003c01bec887$8a3323a0$8cdb52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <4.1.19990706233602.0095dab0@p...> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:45:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: MN Speaker To: Sent: 7. juli 1999 00:37 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- : MORNINGTON NOMIC : : Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirteen : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- : : Proposal 827 - The Fast Game [Special] I had thought of allowing multiple Timeouts, too, but that seemed unnecessary and potentially messy. : : Proposal 828 - Better Goo [Multiple] : : If Proposal 819 has been adopted: : Well, it wasn't. I still like the idea, so expect to see Goo again. : : Proposal 830 - The Envelope, Please... [Amendment] : { Comment: the main point of this is to enable Player nomination of Awards : rather than forcing the Speaker to choose, but I've taken the opportunity to : try and tidy up some of the wording which has degraded somewhat with other : changes. Is Speaker choice so bad? This reminds me of the discussions on bicameral parliaments. If both chambers are elected by the same constituency, they will tend to be similar. Here, the most popular proposals will win the awards. I don't think I like democracy everywhere. : : Proposal 831 - Indigestion [Amendment] I like it in. It's a bit of book-keeping, granted, but I still like the fading of the boost. : : Proposal 832 - Buck the Pass [Multiple] : Very nice. : : Proposal 833 - Hitting the Ground Running [Amendment] : : { So that building up LV in a DH Loop is actually *possible*... } That is not a bad thing. : : Proposal 834 - Anti-Narcissism [Amendment] : Bugfixing : : Proposal 835 - Brown and Sticky [Amendment] : : Move Rule 1.10.12 (Knerdling) to Section 1.4, since it's a Possession thing, : rather than an offensive, targetted or post-Move Action... It is still closely related to Clamps. And it does include an element of targeting. (-tt- ?) : : Proposal 836 - Finding all the time [Amendment] : Bugfixing, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jul 7 08:19:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 12048 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jul 1999 15:19:16 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 15:19:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 10069 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 15:19:16 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 15:19:16 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 1999 16:19:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:19:14 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7lvr5i$f9e1@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <003c01bec887$8a3323a0$8cdb52c3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.73 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : Proposal 835 - Brown and Sticky [Amendment] > : > : Move Rule 1.10.12 (Knerdling) to Section 1.4, since it's a Possession > thing, > : rather than an offensive, targetted or post-Move Action... > > It is still closely related to Clamps. And it does include an element of > targeting. (-tt- ?) All quite true, but the fact that it's a pre-Move Action means that you can't ever perform it, since Actions in Section 1.10 have to be the first post-Move Action, if anything. Similarly, it's unlikely that you'll want to target someone who shares a Station, as all other Section 1.10 Actions are required to. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jul 7 08:20:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 12878 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jul 1999 15:20:16 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 15:20:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 10301 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 15:20:17 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 15:20:17 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 1999 16:20:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:20:10 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7lvr7a$d91b@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990706233602.0095dab0@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.73 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 827 - The Fast Game [Special] > > In the Fast Game, the Players have 24 hours to submit eir Turn, instead of > the 36 hours mentioned in Rule 1.3.5. I'm not sure this would give any noticeable increase in speed; there's no particular reason why Players wouldn't be as gentlemanly as they are already, happily waiting a week for someone to make eir Move if it's clear that person is otherwise engaged. It may be interesting to add clause saying that any Move made more than twenty-four hours after the last is automatically illegal, rather than leaving it to discretion, but I wouldn't rush to play, my Internet access and spare time being somewhat intermittent and unpredictable. Or perhaps a "Short Game" variant requiring only one Gold to open MC...? >Proposal 828 - Better Goo [Multiple] > >{How come Indestructible means Destructible In Defined Ways?} It used to be "Sticky", but was changed to something a little more fitting. Maybe "Undroppable" would fit better. (Or, dare I say it, "Cursed"...) >Proposal 829 - Bull's Eye [Multiple] Not bad. It'd certainly be nice to have something which allowed the Shunting of more than one Player during a Turn, but at the same time the existing "first thing you do after your Move" solution is quite neat and intuitive (rather than Moving, Busking for fifty minutes and then kicking a Player to Morden). This does seem to overcomplicate the issue a bit, too, really. And, more than anything, its casual destruction of the Volume/Section/Rule structure is disturbing and, well, illegal according to the Ruleset. As such, I fear the Speaker may have to discard it... >Proposal 830 - The Envelope, Please... [Amendment] It makes a lot of sense, but (from experience as Speaker) I think it's going to be quite rare that popular opinion would differ terribly from the whim of the Speaker. It's Dunx's call, really, as to whether he'd mind the extra legwork. I suppose it would work quite elegantly in the cgi Voting Booth... >Proposal 836 - Finding all the time [Amendment] Indeed. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jul 7 09:35:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16805 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jul 1999 16:35:06 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 16:35:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 30388 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 16:35:07 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 16:35:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p458-27.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.135.155]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA14799 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:35:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00d901bec896$a0bdde80$8cdb52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7lvr5i$f9e1@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:33:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals (and Rule 0.2.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : > : Proposal 835 - Brown and Sticky [Amendment] : > : : > : Move Rule 1.10.12 (Knerdling) to Section 1.4, since it's a : Possession : > thing, : > : rather than an offensive, targetted or post-Move Action... : > : > It is still closely related to Clamps. And it does include an element : of : > targeting. (-tt- ?) : : All quite true, but the fact that it's a pre-Move Action means that you : can't ever perform it, since Actions in Section 1.10 have to be the : first post-Move Action, if anything. Similarly, it's unlikely that : you'll want to target someone who shares a Station, as all other : Section 1.10 Actions are required to. : I still wonder about Rules 0.2.8, 1.10.0 and 1.10.2 (and 1.10.12). 0.2.8 says that the Rules should work together, and that the specific should take precedence over the general, as well as the explicit over the implicit. 1.10.0 is general and explicit in disallowing secondary targeting. 1.10.2 is specific, but implicit re 1.10.0 in allowing Double-Shunting. 1.10.12 is specific, too. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jul 7 16:17:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 27980 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 25118 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.7] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 1999 00:16:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:28:24 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7m0d98$2jv4@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00d901bec896$a0bdde80$8cdb52c3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.73 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals (and Rule 0.2.8) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I still wonder about Rules 0.2.8, 1.10.0 and 1.10.2 (and 1.10.12). > > 0.2.8 says that the Rules should work together, and that the specific should > take precedence over the general, as well as the explicit over the implicit. > > 1.10.0 is general and explicit in disallowing secondary targeting. > 1.10.2 is specific, but implicit re 1.10.0 in allowing Double-Shunting. > 1.10.12 is specific, too. I meant to comment about this when you raised it earlier, actually, but forgot to get back to it. The way I read it, Double-Shunts are impossible because 1.10.0 requires them to be played as the first Action, and 1.10.2 requires them to be played after a Shunt. Just as impossible as an Action which required Players to carry a Possession which didn't exist in the game, or whatever. 1.10.12 is just as bad, although slightly more clear-cut, in that it can only be performed as a pre-Move Action, and can also only be performed as the first post-Move Action. Such a Rule conflict isn't necessarily a problem (we may, for instance, add a different Action which can cancel the effect of one or the other sides), but I'd say it was messy enough to require attention - it doesn't create any dangerous paradoxes in the ruleset, merely untidiness and confusion. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Wed Jul 7 16:17:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 27980 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 25118 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.7] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 1999 00:16:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:28:24 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7m0d98$2jv4@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00d901bec896$a0bdde80$8cdb52c3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.73 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals (and Rule 0.2.8) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I still wonder about Rules 0.2.8, 1.10.0 and 1.10.2 (and 1.10.12). > > 0.2.8 says that the Rules should work together, and that the specific should > take precedence over the general, as well as the explicit over the implicit. > > 1.10.0 is general and explicit in disallowing secondary targeting. > 1.10.2 is specific, but implicit re 1.10.0 in allowing Double-Shunting. > 1.10.12 is specific, too. I meant to comment about this when you raised it earlier, actually, but forgot to get back to it. The way I read it, Double-Shunts are impossible because 1.10.0 requires them to be played as the first Action, and 1.10.2 requires them to be played after a Shunt. Just as impossible as an Action which required Players to carry a Possession which didn't exist in the game, or whatever. 1.10.12 is just as bad, although slightly more clear-cut, in that it can only be performed as a pre-Move Action, and can also only be performed as the first post-Move Action. Such a Rule conflict isn't necessarily a problem (we may, for instance, add a different Action which can cancel the effect of one or the other sides), but I'd say it was messy enough to require attention - it doesn't create any dangerous paradoxes in the ruleset, merely untidiness and confusion. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jul 7 22:07:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20299 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Jul 1999 05:07:25 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 05:07:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 31764 invoked from network); 8 Jul 1999 05:07:25 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 05:07:25 -0000 Received: from opus (p429-180.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.197.180]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA07559 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 07:07:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00b101bec8ff$b8da9120$b4c58e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7m0d98$2jv4@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 06:57:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals (and Rule 0.2.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : The way I read it, Double-Shunts are : impossible because 1.10.0 requires them to be played as the first : Action, and 1.10.2 requires them to be played after a Shunt. Before I began nomicking, I would have argued along the same lines. So you're probably right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jul 7 22:44:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10450 invoked by uid 7770); 8 Jul 1999 05:44:48 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 05:44:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 5614 invoked from network); 8 Jul 1999 05:44:47 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 05:44:47 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA15617; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:44:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015470; Thu, 8 Jul 99 15:44:35 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:43:34 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:43:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: informal game who-to-play update Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Impatient for more games to keep me awake at work, I decided to compile the list of who's currently up to bat in each game: Game 11: Kevan (Long Game - Lyttleton) Game 13: Dunx (Finsbury Option - Garden) Game 15: Kevan (Ruttsborough - Rushton) Game 16: Ole (Chateau d'Eau - Brooke-Taylor) Game 17: Kevan (Team game - Cryer) Thurible, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sat Jul 10 20:41:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31469 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Jul 1999 03:41:00 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 1999 03:41:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 5349 invoked from network); 11 Jul 1999 03:41:00 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 1999 03:41:00 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA21625 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:46:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:43:36 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Don't Panic! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dunno how many you you may or may not already know this, but I've just discovered that Yoz, who ran the Delphi MC server, is working at Douglas Adams's company The Digital Village, and is currently Community Editor for H2G2, the online version of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. His user page is http://www.h2g2.com/U47 , and judging from Encyclopedia Morningtonia, there's some great writers on this list who would no doubt make excellent Guide reporters... (My page is /U46393, or you can just search for 'RiffRaff') cheers, --Riff "Press down on the medulla oblongata! Five bucks says he smells burnt toast!" --Sam & Max, Freelance Police ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Tue Jul 13 01:42:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14700 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Jul 1999 06:25:47 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 06:25:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 1926 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 06:25:46 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 06:25:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 22080 invoked by uid 85); 13 Jul 1999 06:25:38 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 06:25:38 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990713071706.009a1120@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:21:55 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <7lvr7a$d91b@eGroups.com> References: <4.1.19990706233602.0095dab0@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 13 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just comment on a comment, really. Kevan wrote: >>Proposal 830 - The Envelope, Please... [Amendment] > >It makes a lot of sense, but (from experience as Speaker) I think it's >going to be quite rare that popular opinion would differ terribly from >the whim of the Speaker. It's Dunx's call, really, as to whether he'd >mind the extra legwork. I suppose it would work quite elegantly in the >cgi Voting Booth... I shall 'fess up as the Proposer, here. My motivation in putting this forward is that I don't feel like I'm offering anything more than my whim in allocating awards. Frankly, nominating Awards is a chore. The thinking was indeed that it would work well in the Voting Booth. A handful of extra lines in a trio of templates and one Perl script, in fact. I'll Speak later. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jul 13 16:08:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2995 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Jul 1999 23:07:59 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:07:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 25385 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 23:07:58 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:07:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 8669 invoked by uid 85); 13 Jul 1999 23:07:43 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:07:43 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990714000010.0099d180@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:04:04 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 14 - Voting Results for Week 13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 827 The Fast Game 1 1 4 4 Fails 828 -- withdrawn -- 829 -- illegal -- [a] 830 The Envelope Please... 3 1 2 4 Passes 831 Indigestion 4 1 1 4 Passes 832 Buck the Pass 6 - - 4 Passes 833 Hitting the Ground Running 5 1 - 4 Passes 834 Anti-Narcissism 5 1 - 4 Passes 835 Brown And Sticky 3 1 2 4 Passes 836 Finding all the time 5 1 - 4 Passes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 827 (Ole) - AGA AGA - AGA - PAS FOR - AGA 828 (Ole) -- withdrawn -- 829 (Ole) -- illegal -- 830 (Dunx) - PAS AGA - FOR - FOR FOR - AGA 831 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - AGA FOR - FOR 832 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - FOR - FOR FOR - FOR 833 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 834 (Kevan) - FOR FOR - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 835 (Kevan) - AGA FOR - PAS - AGA FOR - FOR 836 (Ole) - FOR FOR - FOR - PAS FOR - FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 12 5 0 45 16 28 5 8 2 Halved: 6 2 22 14 2 4 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +3 +0 +0 +23 +6 +0 +0 +0 AGA Votes: I -2 -0 -0 -3 I -4 -0 -0 -0 Decisive: n +3 +3 +0 +3 n +3 +3 +0 +3 Voting/Own: a -0 -0 -0 -3 a -0 -0 -0 -0 c c EP FOR: t +0 +0 +0 +0 t +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGA: i -0 -0 -0 +0 i -0 -0 -0 -0 Digit/Pulse: v +0 +0 +0 +5 v +0 +0 +0 +0 e e Awards: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +4 +3 +0 +25 +5 +3 +0 +3 Final: 11 10 5 0 47 16 19 5 4 4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [a] as pointed out by Kevan, at the very least this Proposal is contrary to Rule 0.2.3. I shouldn't have accepted it, for which I apologise. [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - none CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - none Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - none Clever Bear (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - eschewed I haven't had time to properly consider Award nominations this Week, so I've declined my automatic bonus. -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Tue Jul 13 16:08:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3627 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Jul 1999 23:08:46 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:08:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 2626 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 23:08:46 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:08:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 8959 invoked by uid 85); 13 Jul 1999 23:08:28 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:08:28 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990714000408.009a7a50@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-speaker@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:04:46 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: MN Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: M: Year 3, Week 14 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= - MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Fourteen ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Proposal 837 - No, it can't be Eaten [Multiple] Rule 1.9.x - Goo! A Player possessing a Goo Gun may perform the Action of "[Goo on ]". If the Goo Gun has a Voltage of 'n', can be a Station 'n' or fewer Stations from the location of the Actioning Player, but only in a straight line. Alternatively, can be a Station which the Actioning Player's Piece has passed through during eir Turn. When the Action [Goo on ] is played, the Station in question becomes Gooey until a Player passes through the Station during eir Move. A Gooey Station is marked in the GSD with (Goo) Any Move passing through or beginning at a Gooey Station requires a LV one higher than otherwise required. If several Gooey Stations are involved, the required LV is adjusted once for each such Station. When [Goo on ] is played, and a Player is occupying the said Station, the said Player becomes Gooey, and 'Goo' (a Small, Indestructible Possession) is placed in eir Luggage Rack. A Gooey Player needs a LV one higher than otherwise required in order to move. If a Gooey Player performs any Action that requires the Player to have a Papery Possession, e destroys the Papery Possession as well as the Goo in the process. A Gooey Player crossing the river stops being Gooey(thus destructing the Goo). Rule 1.4.x - Sticky! A Goo Gun is a Small Possession, and has an initial Voltage of 0 (zero). The Voltage of a Goo Gun can be increased by 'X' by playing the Action [Voltage+X], but only if the Actioning Player has played the Action [LV-X] or [LV+X] previously in eir Turn, with X having the same value in both Actions. The Voltage of a Goo Gun is set to 0 (zero) when the Action [Goo on ] is played. In the Luggage Rack, "Goo Gun(6)" is a Goo Gun with a Voltage of 6. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Goo on ] Neut 1.9.x -1 Bu [Voltage+X] Neut 1.4.x none +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Goo Gun(0) | 3 Br | Small | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Proposal 838 - Gran Turismo [Multiple] /---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -\ SECTION 2.x - The Short Game \---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Short Game In the Short Game, the cost for the [Opening MC] action is 1 (one) Gold Token. /---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -\ SECTION 3.x - Gran Turismo \---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -/ Rule 3.x.1 - Gran Turismo In a game of MC Gran Turismo, the Players must move to the MC equivalents on a number of transport networks before moving to Mornington Crescent. The Speaker designates the number and order of networks at the beginning= of the game. All Players begin in London. Each Player must move to the MC equivalents in the specified order. Each [Opening MC equivalent] is priced according to the rules for the Short Game, while [Opening MC] is priced according to the Vanilla ruleset. Each network is played on as per the relevant rules for that network. The winner is the first Player to move to Mornington Crescent after= having visited all the MC equivalents. Game States are specific to each network. Loop (and other) states do not apply to other networks and Players therein. Hats are globally valid, provided such hats exist in the various= networks. Edibles are globally valid, provided such edibles exist in the various networks. Each Player may, once e enters a network, declare a Home Station in that network. A Player may have a maximum of one Home Station in each= network. A Pleyer may not perform the [Home] Action, unless e has declared a Home Station in eir current network. A Player may move from one network to another by means of the [Plane to ] or [InterCity to ] Action, with being the name of= the city moved to. In order to perform the [Plane to ], the Player must be at an= Airport Interchange. If there is no Airport Interchange in , the [Plane to ] Action is, of course, void. After performing [Plane to ], the Player may perform a Special Move to an Airport Interchange in= . In order to perform the [InterCity to ], the Player must be at a BR Station (or equivalent). If there is no BR Station (or equivalent) in , the [InterCity to ] Action is, of course, void. = Furthermore, there must exist a railway connection between the cities in question. If= it is unclear whether or not such a connection exists, the Speaker decides upon the existance (or non-existance) thereof. After performing= [InterCity to ], the Player may perform a Special Move to a BR Station (or equivalent) in . The Actions [InterCity to ] and [Plane to ] ignore the= maximum Turn duration mentioned in Rule 1.13.1. Additionally, performing the associated Move after =EBither of these Actions is always legal with= respect to Rule 1.13.1. No Action may be performed after [InterCity to ] or [Plane to ]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [InterCity to ]* Pre 3.x.1 60 1Si [InterCity to ]** Pre 3.x.1 300 1Si [InterCity to ]*** Pre 3.x.1 3 days 1Si [Plane to ]* Pre 3.x.1 30 1Go [Plane to ]** Pre 3.x.1 60 1Go [Plane to ]*** Pre 3.x.1 300 1Go [Plane to ]**** Pre 3.x.1 1 day 1Go *) same country **) same continent ***) Europe-Asia-Africa (any combination), or N.America-S.America (or vice versa) ****) any other ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Proposal 839 - The other Eye [Multiple] This proposal is in 3 parts. 1. Don't Shoot till You see the Red in his Eye [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.0 - Target Practice, replace Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that Action. with Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) no Player is Target of more than one Action, unless explicitly allowed for in the Rule defining that Action. 2. I'm No Peter Pan [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.5 - The Coming of Shadows replace A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Shadowing ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Shadowed Player) whose Piece's location is that of the Actioning Player's Piece. with A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Shadowing ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Shadowed Player) who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. 3. Amend Rule 2.4.5 - Any Time You Like to have this wrding: Point 2 of Rule 1.10.0 does not apply: actions that target other Players may be performed in any quantity in the Post-Move phase of the Turn. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Proposal 840 - Euston Walkabout [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.10 - Walk the Walk, add * Euston (NT,VC) and Euston Square (CL,HC,MP) to the list of Stations within Walking Distance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= - -- Your Mornington Nomic Speaker "Speak softly and carry a big stick" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Tue Jul 13 16:26:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18149 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Jul 1999 23:26:22 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:26:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 29788 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 23:26:22 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:26:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 16456 invoked by uid 85); 13 Jul 1999 23:26:05 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:26:05 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990714000449.009a1270@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:21:35 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: I Regret To Announce... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends: You may have all seen this coming as the level of my play has steadily deteriorated over the last few weeks, but I am going to have to go Inactive for an indefinite amount of time, at least over the rest of the Northern summer. Since I don't know how long I will be out of circulation, I shall have to resign from all the Games I am currently playing in. Following on from this extended bout of Inactivity, there is a need to find another Speaker. I am happy enough to continue in this capacity for another Week (or two at a push) but the sooner the reins are handed over the better, I would say. There is nothing in the Rules to forbid an Inactive Speaker, but it seems a somewhat strange situation to be in. The actual handover should not be too traumatic - there is no need to change the Speaker email address, for instance, since it is an entirely separate POP account from my own email. Similarly, the management of the eGroups lists is now assigned to the Speaker rather than to any individual, and access to the Xoom web site is easily handed off. I never got around to sorting out many of the Perl-based tools I was threatening to implement, so there is little enough to worry about there. The only bit of fiddliness is the Voting Booth - I've updated the CGI script include award nominations (since 830 passed) but actual updates to the Proposal list an so on will need an extra bit of code to enable access without requiring FTP access. Separate FTP accounts are not in my gift, and I'm unwilling to hand over the FTP password even to such trusted individuals as yourselves. If the voting booth dies or goes into abeyance, then so be it. I would commend to the next Speaker Snow's VoteMachine, which is a very useful tool that I never really got round to using. I intention is that the messages sent by the booth to the Speaker can be used as input to this modern marvel. In any case, it has been a pleasure to have Spoken for you despite my occasional complaints. I can only apologise for the suddenness of my departure, and express my awe at appreciation at the constant flashes of creative brilliance in Proposals and aggressive play which it has been my privilege to have witnessed. I shall return. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jul 13 16:44:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30421 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Jul 1999 23:44:03 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:44:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 712 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 23:44:02 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 23:44:02 -0000 Received: from opus (p440-022.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.203.22]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA28081 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:44:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008b01becd89$71bbcfa0$3ed552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <4.1.19990714000408.009a7a50@p...> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:41:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: M: Year 3, Week 14 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Proposal 837 - No, it can't be Eaten [Multiple] The Goo prop plus the updates from Better Goo in one neat package. Proposal 838 - Gran Turismo [Multiple] Two new Sections in one prop. The Short Game is a prerequisite for Gran Turismo. Proposal 839 - The other Eye [Multiple] The Bull's Eye prop without the renumbering and with a more manageable 1.10.0 than in the first prop. Please that "2. I'm No Peter Pan [Amendment]" probably is without effect, since the quoted text is not in Rule 1.10.5 anymore. Proposal 840 - Euston Walkabout [Amendment] Euston Square is marked as 'within walking distance' of Euston on the .PDF-map proposed some weeks ago. I don't think they moved either station, so they probably _are_ that close. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Tue Jul 13 22:59:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18460 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Jul 1999 05:59:53 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 05:59:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 23814 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1999 05:59:54 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 05:59:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 21047 invoked by uid 85); 14 Jul 1999 05:59:37 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 05:59:37 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990714065418.0094c120@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:55:59 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <008b01becd89$71bbcfa0$3ed552c3@opus> References: <4.1.19990714000408.009a7a50@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: M: Year 3, Week 14 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 840 - Euston Walkabout [Amendment] > >Euston Square is marked as 'within walking distance' of Euston on the >.PDF-map proposed some weeks ago. I don't think they moved either station, >so they probably _are_ that close. They sure are - about a five minute stroll along one of the busier roads in London, so hardly a pleasant walk but certainly achieavable. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Tue Jul 13 23:35:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6843 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Jul 1999 06:35:10 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 06:35:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 29585 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1999 06:35:10 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 06:35:10 -0000 Received: from opus (p429-184.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.197.184]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA06854 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:35:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <009301becdc3$04b5e960$b8c58e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <4.1.19990714000408.009a7a50@p...> <4.1.19990714065418.0094c120@p...> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:34:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: M: Year 3, Week 14 Proposals Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: : >Proposal 840 - Euston Walkabout [Amendment] : > : >Euston Square is marked as 'within walking distance' of Euston on the : >.PDF-map proposed some weeks ago. I don't think they moved either station, : >so they probably _are_ that close. : : They sure are - about a five minute stroll along one of the busier roads in : London, so hardly a pleasant walk but certainly achieavable. Uh-oh... That leaves 25 minutes unaccounted for. ;-) Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Jul 15 21:29:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20237 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Jul 1999 04:29:56 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 1999 04:29:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 11213 invoked from network); 16 Jul 1999 04:29:56 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 1999 04:29:56 -0000 Received: from opus (p408-025.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.215.153]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA26032 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:29:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000401becf43$da3c5ca0$99d752c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:18:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Possible Walking? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is Rotherhithe (East London) and Canada Water (Jubilee [under construction]) within walking distance? The two seem pretty close together on the map. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jul 17 11:45:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21416 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Jul 1999 18:45:42 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 1999 18:45:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 5200 invoked from network); 17 Jul 1999 18:45:42 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 1999 18:45:42 -0000 Received: from opus (p450-104.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.232]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA13294 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:45:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <0f1001bed084$919b7f20$19db52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:42:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: No Comments? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You've fallen quite silent, guys. Are all this week's props that (good or) bad? Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From kevan@d... Sat Jul 17 13:04:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 31578 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Jul 1999 20:04:00 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 1999 20:04:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 17763 invoked from network); 17 Jul 1999 20:03:49 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 1999 20:03:49 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.26] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 1999 21:03:49 -0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:03:41 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7mqnit$4j4u@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990714000449.009a1270@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.74 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: I Regret To Announce... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to have left this bombshell unreplied-to for so long... A busy week. > You may have all seen this coming as the level of my play has > steadily deteriorated over the last few weeks, but I am going > to have to go Inactive for an indefinite amount of time, at > least over the rest of the Northern summer. I hadn't seen it coming at all, really, just putting down your intermittent (but no less exceptional) playing performance to, as with myself, a heavy workload and nice weather. Sorry to hear things are drastic enough to warrant a dropping of Speakership; I trust the rest of your free time isn't being similarly curtailed. > Following on from this extended bout of Inactivity, there is a > need to find another Speaker. Indeed. I would, of course, reclaim the reins myself, but can't really give it the time it needs; work and sunshine aside, my Internet access is incredibly limited these days, and it'd be ludicrously awkward trying to keep everything up to date. Heigh ho. Maybe we could operate on "limited Speakership" for a while, if nobody had the time to dedicate themselves fully to the job - simply reduce the Speaker's job to something as vague as "changing the ruleset if we've generally decided that something's broken or dubious". Hmm. Such might not be a terribly bad way to run the Nomic, really. Maybe worth trying to see how it goes. > In any case, it has been a pleasure to have Spoken for you despite my > occasional complaints. And a pleasure to have been Spoken at, and on behalf of. You seem to have fitted into the Mornington Nomic Speaker boots even more snugly than myself, and you'll be sadly missed, in Speaking, Proposing and Playing. > I shall return. We shall await. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sat Jul 17 23:48:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7765 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Jul 1999 06:48:36 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Jul 1999 06:48:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 24004 invoked from network); 18 Jul 1999 06:48:35 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Jul 1999 06:48:35 -0000 Received: from opus (p454-13.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.133.141]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA05685 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:48:34 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <006a01bed0e9$8d7ba2c0$8d852fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7mqnit$4j4u@eGroups.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 07:45:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: I Regret To Announce... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : : Maybe we could operate on "limited Speakership" for a while, if nobody : had the time to dedicate themselves fully to the job - simply reduce : the Speaker's job to something as vague as "changing the ruleset if : we've generally decided that something's broken or dubious". Hmm. Such : might not be a terribly bad way to run the Nomic, really. Maybe worth : trying to see how it goes. : And we just killed the Frozen/Fluid thing. Well, we can just pretend it's still there. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jul 18 19:04:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28815 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Jul 1999 02:04:54 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 02:04:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 31620 invoked from network); 19 Jul 1999 02:04:53 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 02:04:53 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA10184; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:04:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma010043; Mon, 19 Jul 99 12:04:24 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <37FZXVJY>; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:03:12 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:03:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: I Regret To Announce... Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday, July 18, 1999 3:45 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Kevan wrote: > : > : Maybe we could operate on "limited Speakership" for a while, if nobody > : had the time to dedicate themselves fully to the job - simply reduce > : the Speaker's job to something as vague as "changing the ruleset if > : we've generally decided that something's broken or dubious". Hmm. Such > : might not be a terribly bad way to run the Nomic, really. Maybe worth > : trying to see how it goes. > : > > And we just killed the Frozen/Fluid thing. Well, we can just pretend it's > still there. I was just thinking that. Never mind - I suggest we just don't propose anything and keep the scores at their current state until we can find a new Speaker, who can just take up the reins as if we've just had a very long Week. Let play continue, though! Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Sun Jul 18 23:06:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28217 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Jul 1999 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 05:32:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 19259 invoked from network); 19 Jul 1999 05:32:52 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 05:32:52 -0000 Received: from opus (p433-192.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.199.192]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02850 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:32:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <005201bed1a8$23b30bc0$c0c78e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 06:10:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: I Regret To Announce... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: : I was just thinking that. Never mind - I suggest we just don't propose : anything and keep the scores at their current state until we can find a new : Speaker, who can just take up the reins as if we've just had a very long : Week. : : Let play continue, though! : Extending the Week is within the Speaker's power, so that would be quite easy. Rule 0.6.2 is quite forgiving, so to speak. Ole ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Mon Jul 19 18:31:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29695 invoked by uid 7770); 20 Jul 1999 01:18:14 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Jul 1999 01:18:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 9579 invoked from network); 20 Jul 1999 01:18:14 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Jul 1999 01:18:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 15701 invoked from network); 20 Jul 1999 01:18:13 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 1999 01:18:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 26802 invoked from network); 20 Jul 1999 01:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.35) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Jul 1999 01:18:13 -0000 Message-ID: <006e01bed24d$c734e5c0$237b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <005201bed1a8$23b30bc0$c0c78e81@opus> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 01:44:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: I Regret To Announce... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ole Andersen Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 5:10 AM > Paul wrote: > : I was just thinking that. Never mind - I suggest we just don't propose > : anything and keep the scores at their current state until we can find a > new > : Speaker, who can just take up the reins as if we've just had a very long > : Week. > : > : Let play continue, though! > : > > Extending the Week is within the Speaker's power, so that would be quite > easy. > Rule 0.6.2 is quite forgiving, so to speak. > This is probably not a sensible time to volunteer given that it's taken me 30min and 3 ISPs to send this Email, but if no one else wants to be "it" I'd be happy to speak until I get more important commitments (like a job). I may not be able to keep the end of week deadlines every week due to not having decent internet access when I'm in London, but I should be able to get everything done when I'm at home. Due to my inexperience at the game I would be unwilling to carry out certain tasks (in particular the Clever Bear Award) these would have to be ignored or deputised. What do you think? Has the prospect of seeing my spelling and grammar on a regular basis put everyone off the idea of having a speaker? Anyway if no more experienced players are stepping forward I'm willing to have a go anytime after this week's results have been anounced. Snow -Folding cornflakes carry no dust ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Wed Jul 21 01:33:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12394 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jul 1999 07:50:30 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 07:50:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 10056 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 07:50:29 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 07:50:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 21305 invoked by uid 85); 21 Jul 1999 07:50:20 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 07:50:20 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990721084301.009a0ee0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:45:08 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Delayed Wek End Stuff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: Sorry for the delay in the week end stuff - it will turn up this evening. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Dunx Wed Jul 21 01:40:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24977 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jul 1999 08:03:28 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 08:03:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 15366 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 08:03:28 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 08:03:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 24536 invoked by uid 85); 21 Jul 1999 08:03:20 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 08:03:20 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990721084525.009a38b0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:58:44 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Speakership Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players: Thanks for your kind words in response to my announcement. Apologies for not replying more promptly to the points raised. This is isn't the only thing I'm giving up - work is a bit of a bugger at the moment, and pretty much everything is taking a hit as a result. I will return in the Autumn once things have eased somewhat. Particular thanks are due to Snow for volunteering - I am quite happy to pass the Speaker's Hat onto em if the other Players are amenable. My other suggestion was going to be to agree that the next Week be extended indefinitely until a new Speaker was found. Breakages in the ruleset could be handled by EP, and updates to the Game table are pretty much trivial. But having a live Speaker would be better. Er... I think that's about it for the moment. As I've mentioned in my other message, the Week End stuff will appear this evening (circumstances not being auspicious last night). All the best. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Wed Jul 21 15:50:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3118 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jul 1999 22:02:17 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 22:02:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 30084 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 22:02:17 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 22:02:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 4024 invoked by uid 85); 21 Jul 1999 22:02:05 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO dunx.org) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 22:02:05 -0000 Sender: dunx Message-ID: <37965081.E588D3AB@d...> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:58:10 +0000 From: MN Speaker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 15 - Voting Results for Week 14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 837 No, it can't be Eaten 1 1 1 4 Inquorate [a] 838 Gran Turismo - 2 1 4 Inquorate 839 The Other Eye 1 1 1 4 Inquorate 840 Euston Walkabout 2 1 - 4 Inquorate ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 837 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - FOR 838 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - PAS 839 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - FOR 840 (Ole) - - - - FOR - PAS - - FOR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 10 5 0 47 16 19 5 4 4 Halved: 2 23 9 2 2 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +4 +0 +0 +0 AGA Votes: I I -0 -0 -0 I -3 -0 -0 -0 Decisive: n n +0 +0 +3 n +3 +0 +0 +0 [b] Voting/Own: a a -0 -0 +0 a -0 -0 -0 -0 c c c EP FOR: t t +0 +0 +0 t +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGA: i i -0 -0 +0 i -0 -0 -0 -0 Digit/Pulse: v v +0 +0 +0 v +0 +0 +0 +0 e e e Awards: +0 +0 +4 +0 +0 +0 +0 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +0 +0 +3 +4 +0 +0 +0 Final: 11 37 2 0 26 16 13 2 2 2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - none CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - none Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - none [c] Clever Bear (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Dunx (automatic) [d] [a] Quorum is defined as the point where the number of invalid votes (ie abstentions) does not exceed the number of valid votes. With seven Active Players, there needed to be four valid votes for each Proposal for them to be Quorate (Rule 0.5.4). Rule 0.5.4 also states that in the event of a Proposal being Inquorate, the original Proposer may immediately repropose it. I'm afraid I have been unable to spend the time this Week to check with Ole as to whether or not e wants to repropose - I would suggest rolling over the free reproposal into the following Week. [b] Ole is considered decisive since e explicitly passed on all the Proposals [c] only one nomination was received, which does not permit the award to be made. [d] this, of course, has no effect since the current Speaker is Inactive. The next Speaker should obviously insert eir own name here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From MN Speaker Wed Jul 21 15:57:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10775 invoked by uid 7770); 21 Jul 1999 22:12:14 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 22:12:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 32176 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 22:12:13 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 22:12:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 7964 invoked by uid 85); 21 Jul 1999 22:12:07 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO dunx.org) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 22:12:07 -0000 Sender: dunx Message-ID: <379652DC.9A075BCC@d...> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:08:12 +0000 From: MN Speaker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Au Revoir, Mes Amis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, that'll be about it then. I hereby declare Week 15 of Year 3 to be extended indefinitely until such time as a Speaker shall be agreed amongst the Active Players. This is not to ignore Snow's selfless volunteering, merely to give other Players enough time to say aye or nay. When you've made up your minds, please let me know (not at the speaker address, though!). In the meantime, I'm happy enough to administrate EPs and game starts. Responsibility for determining playing sequence is hereby officially deputised to whosoever takes it upon themselves to do the honours for each Game. Cheers to one and all. See you all again in due course. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Wed Jul 21 23:39:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28648 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Jul 1999 06:39:19 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 1999 06:39:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 8416 invoked from network); 22 Jul 1999 06:39:19 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 1999 06:39:19 -0000 Received: from opus (p447-19.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.19]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA16200 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:39:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <013f01bed40c$ea16a040$b0892fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:12:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Cryer Lounge empty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After Riff's and Kevan's victory in Capture the Flag, we need a new game on l-nomic-c. We have a Long Game (2.1), a Finsbury (2.3), a Rutts (2.4), and a Chateau (3.1). I propose either Vanilla (1.), Pachisi (2.10) or Ostrich (4.3). Any takers? Ole From dunx@d... Thu Jul 22 00:56:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 10257 invoked by uid 7770); 22 Jul 1999 07:56:25 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 1999 07:56:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 28111 invoked from network); 22 Jul 1999 07:56:25 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 1999 07:56:25 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.26] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 1999 08:56:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:56:24 -0700 From: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7n6ir8$b966@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Missing Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chaps: There is a single Proposal for Week 15 which, although I sent a message publishing it, does not appear to have made it to the mailing list. It's been uploaded onto the web site, though, and I will send it again later. (as for my suspicious increase in Kudos... this is obviously wrong. Again, fix later) From Thu Jul 22 18:30:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14567 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jul 1999 01:29:57 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 01:29:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 2868 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 01:29:54 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 01:29:54 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA17442; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:29:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016532; Fri, 23 Jul 99 11:29:01 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:27:46 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:19:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Cryer Lounge empty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, July 22, 1999 4:12 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > I propose either Vanilla (1.), Pachisi (2.10) or Ostrich (4.3). I'd vote for Vanilla. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Thu Jul 22 22:39:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6906 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jul 1999 05:39:09 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 05:39:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 10576 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 05:39:08 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 05:39:08 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA09809 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:44:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:41:58 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Cryer Lounge empty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Thursday, July 22, 1999 4:12 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] >wrote: >> I propose either Vanilla (1.), Pachisi (2.10) or Ostrich (4.3). > >I'd vote for Vanilla. I'll second that --Riff "Press down on the medulla oblongata! Five bucks says he smells burnt toast!" --Sam & Max, Freelance Police From kevan@d... Fri Jul 23 01:05:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 17463 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jul 1999 08:05:32 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 08:05:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 795 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 08:05:32 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 08:05:32 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 1999 09:05:32 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:05:30 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7n97oa$q6op@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Cryer Lounge empty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> I propose either Vanilla (1.), Pachisi (2.10) or Ostrich (4.3). > > > >I'd vote for Vanilla. > > I'll second that And I'll third it. Shall we begin? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From kevan@d... Fri Jul 23 01:19:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 24136 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jul 1999 08:19:37 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 08:19:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 2773 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 08:19:38 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 08:19:38 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 1999 09:19:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:19:27 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7n98if$qrl3@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Tube trains for sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rather a weird story on This Is London this morning; London Transport are auctioning off some of their old Northern Line trains:- http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/top_story.html?in_review_id=15 7956&in_review_text_id=127324 Only very slightly tempted, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From kevan@d... Fri Jul 23 12:53:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23669 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Jul 1999 19:53:22 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 19:53:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 32325 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 19:53:21 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 19:53:21 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.5] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 1999 20:53:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:18 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7nah7e$abgi@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <379652DC.9A075BCC@d...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Au Revoir, Mes Amis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, that'll be about it then. Indeed it will. Thanks for putting the time in to draw the Nomickery side to a reasonable close. > I hereby declare Week 15 of Year 3 to be extended indefinitely until > such time as a Speaker shall be agreed amongst the Active Players. > > This is not to ignore Snow's selfless volunteering, merely to give other > Players enough time to say aye or nay. When you've made up your minds, > please let me know (not at the speaker address, though!). I'm more than happy to see Snow taking the reins, myself - sorry for not having commented earlier, but my time and thoughts have been being pulled variously about the locale lately. So long as Snow feels happy taking on the job, that's really all that matters - he seems to be of overly sufficient sound mind for the role. Whether we operate on "full" or simply get by with Emergency Proposals as appropriate, I'll leave to the discretion of whoever becomes Speaker; I've a feeling the latter might be worth shifting for a while to anyway, unless Snow (or whoever else) is keen enough to jump straight in with eir Speakering. > In the meantime, I'm happy enough to administrate EPs and game starts. Very kind of you. > Responsibility for determining playing sequence is hereby officially > deputised to whosoever takes it upon themselves to do the honours for > each Game. Such seems fair enough. I see no harm in separate pseudo-Speakers stepping forward for various games, as appropriate. (Mornington Nomic, broadcast in glorious surround-sound.) > Cheers to one and all. See you all again in due course. And cheers back at you. All the best until your undoubtedly triumphant return, and may life treat you kindly in the interim. Minding the gap, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Sun Jul 25 12:14:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11541 invoked by uid 7770); 25 Jul 1999 19:14:39 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jul 1999 19:14:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 15958 invoked from network); 25 Jul 1999 19:14:38 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jul 1999 19:14:38 -0000 Received: from opus (p410-088.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.216.216]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA16765 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:14:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01af01bed6d1$ee20f9c0$d8d852c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7n97oa$q6op@eGroups.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:36:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Cryer Lounge empty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > >> I propose either Vanilla (1.), Pachisi (2.10) or Ostrich (4.3). : > > : > >I'd vote for Vanilla. : > : > I'll second that : : And I'll third it. Shall we begin? : Consider it fourthed. Ole From Mon Jul 26 04:38:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4844 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Jul 1999 11:37:57 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 11:37:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 15586 invoked from network); 26 Jul 1999 11:37:57 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 11:37:57 -0000 Received: from opus (p404-046.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.213.174]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA15518 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:37:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <058e01bed75b$4b735d00$40d952c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:36:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Why this? (Fw: Posting sent to the moderator for approval) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What happened here? Ole ----- Original Message ----- From: eGroups.com Manager To: Ole Andersen Sent: 26. juli 1999 13:07 Subject: Posting sent to the moderator for approval : Your posting (Subject: "Game 15 Game State Document") has been sent : to the moderator ("l-nomic-r-owner@egroups.com") for approval. When : the moderator approves the posting, it will be automatically : distributed to the eGroup. : : From kevan@d... Mon Jul 26 05:46:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 14878 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Jul 1999 12:46:28 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 12:46:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 19340 invoked from network); 26 Jul 1999 12:46:29 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 12:46:29 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jul 1999 13:46:28 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:46:27 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7nhlb2$qmio@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <058e01bed75b$4b735d00$40d952c3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Why this? (Fw: Posting sent to the moderator for approval) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What happened here? Were you maybe posting from an abnormal email address? eGroups occasionally mistakes people for non-subscribers, in such situations, and approachers the group maintainer for verification. I'm not sure if anything else would trigger it, in all honesty. You weren't swearing copiously or anything, were you? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Mon Jul 26 09:35:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25808 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Jul 1999 16:35:23 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 16:35:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 12158 invoked from network); 26 Jul 1999 16:35:21 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 16:35:21 -0000 Received: from opus (p424-090.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.195.90]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA03184 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:35:15 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <009c01bed784$d3e1d440$5ac38e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <7nhlb2$qmio@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:32:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Why this? (Fw: Posting sent to the moderator for approval) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan answered me: : > What happened here? : : Were you maybe posting from an abnormal email address? eGroups : occasionally mistakes people for non-subscribers, in such situations, : and approachers the group maintainer for verification. : : I'm not sure if anything else would trigger it, in all honesty. You : weren't swearing copiously or anything, were you? I wouldn't think so. This was the message (as sent from my usual address): (I've cut the ads out (my method is: reply to the previous GSD, place old text in clipboard, select full text of reply, insert clipboard, edit)). [Ruttsborough] +------------+-------------------+----+----+----------------------+ | Player | Home | LV | Ch | Tokens | | | | | | Bk Bu Br Go Gr Re Si | +------------+-------------------+----+----+----------------------+ |*Drone | | 0 | 0 | 2 0 2 0 0 2 0 | | Ole | West Brompton | 3 | 0 | 1 0 2 0 0 2 0 | | Kevan | Neasden | 0 | -2 | 10 10 0 0 0 2 0 | +------------+-------------------+----+----+----------------------+ +- Wild ----------------------------------------------++-- Time --+ | Kennington, Fairlop || Tue 1210 | +-----------------------------------------------------++----------+ +Possessions-+----------------------------------------------------+ | Kevan | *Harmonica* | +------------+----------------------------------------------------+ +Station-Tokens---+--------------+-----------------+--------------+ | Mill Hill East | Bk | Barons Court | GrBuBuBu | | Hounslow Central| BkBk | Covent Garden | Re | | Limehouse | BkBkBkGrBr | Surrey Quays | ReGrReReReRe | | East India | Bu | Royal Victoria | BuRe | | Custom House | Bu | Prince Regent | BuBuRe | | Royal Albert | Bu | Finchley Road | Bk | | Neasden | GoGoBrBr | Seven Sisters | GrGrBuBu | | New Cross Gate | BuBu | | | +-----------------+--------------+-----------------+--------------+ +- Disruptions ---------------------------------------------------+ | Charge In | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Courier Call from Farringdon to Hyde Park Corner... | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ PaulWay : [Home: Limehouse] Limehouse [Purchasing a Zone 2 Pass] dave : Time Out Kevan : [Home: Elm Park] Elm Park (DS) Dunx : [Home: Brent Cross] Brent Cross (NT) PaulWay : [LV+3] Monument (for Bank) (NT via DL, CL) [Recycling] [Kennington Wild] dave : [Home: White City] White City (CN) [Purchasing Zone 2 Pass] Kevan : [LV+3] Upminster (DS) [Terminus Slingshot] [Claiming a Black Token from Upminster] [Blocking Goldhawk Road] Dunx : [LV+3] Belsize Park (NT) [Collecting Hat] [Hands On Hat] PaulWay : [LV+2] Shoreditch (EL via NT, HC) [Blocking Aldgate East] dave : [LV+3] West Acton (CN) [Collecting Hat] [Hands on Hat] Kevan : [Recycling] [Courier Call (Fixed)] Pass (Hammersmith (DS)) [Terminus Slingshot] [Collecting Parcel] [Claiming a Red Token from Hammersmith] [Claiming a Black Token from Goldhawk Road] Dunx : Euston (NT) [Collecting Hat] [Purchasing Stub] [Hands On Hat] [Recycling] PaulWay : Time Out dave : [LV+2] Hammersmith (HC via CN,PD) [Collecting Hat] [Terminus Slingshot] [Blocking East Ham] Dunx : [LV-2] Camden Town (NT) [Using the Minnerman Spiral Gambit] [Hands On Hat] PaulWay : [LV+3] Camden Town (NT via EL, HC) [Dead-end Shunting Dunx to Mill Hill East] [Blocking Euston] dave : Pass (Barking HC) Dunx : [LV+2] East Finchley (NT) [Collecting Hat] [Hands On Hat] [Charge Spiral] PaulWay : [LV+3] Leicester Square (NT via NT, DS, BK, PD) [Blocking Tottenham Court Road] dave : Time Out Dunx : [LV+1] Tufnell Park (NT) [Hands on Hat] Kevan : [Home: Neasden] Neasden (JL) [Blocking Wembley Park] PaulWay : [LV+2] Goodge Street (NT via NT, BK, PD, JL, CT, VC) [Collecting Hat] [Hands on Hat] Dunx : [LV+1] King's Cross St Pancras (NT) [Silver to Bronze] [Purchasing British Rail Coffee] [Hands On Hat] Kevan : [LV+1] Dollis Hill (JL) [Blocking Willesden Green] PaulWay : [LV+3] Dollis Hill (JL) [Tithing Zone 3] [Hands on Hat] Dunx : [LV+3] [Eating British Rail Coffee] [Dollis Escape] Warren Street (NT via NT,VC,CN,BL,NT,PD,JL,CN) [Silver to Bronze] [Silver to Bronze] [Purchasing Zones 1-6 Pass] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing PaulWay] PaulWay : [LV+1] [Narging Kevan] Charing Cross (JL) [Time: +1:00] [Collecting Hat] [Blocking Leicester Square] [Blocking Piccadilly Circus] [Blocking Embankment] Dunx : [LV+3] Holborn (PD via VC,JL,BL,VC,NT,CN) [Rebounding off Leicester Square] [Red Token on Covent Garden] [Pegging Tottenham Court Road] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) PaulWay : Dollis Hill (JL) [Shadowing Kevan] Dunx : Dollis Hill (JL) [Recycling] [Freeming Kevan] Kevan : Dollis Hill (JL) [Shadowing PaulWay] [Dropping Package at Dollis Hill] [Detonating Package] Dunx : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) Dunx : [LV+3] Dollis Hill (JL) Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Dunx] Dunx : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Kevan] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Dunx] Dunx : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Kevan] [Tithe Zone 3] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Dunx] [Purchasing Harmonica] Dunx : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Kevan] [Collecting Tithe] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Dunx] [Busking] PaulWay : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) Dunx : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Kevan] [Recycling] [Freeming Kevan] [Narging Kevan] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing PaulWay] [Dropping Package at Dollis Hill] [Reshuffling] [Detonating Package] Dunx : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) Dunx : Timeout Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Shadowing Dunx] [Waiting] Dunx : [Bonanza] [Gold to Silver] [Dollis Sidestep] [Duration: +0100] [Purchasing Chocolate Bar] [Eating Chocolate Bar] [LV+3] Finchley Road (JL) [Black Token on Finchley Road] [Straddling to Baker Street (HC)] [Waiting] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Electroplating] [Bonanza] Dunx : [Dollis Sidestep] [LV+3] King's Cross St. Pancras (PD via BL,CN) [Unpegging Tottenham Court Road] Kevan : Farkle (Dollis Hill (JL)) Ole : [Home: West Brompton] Pass Dunx : Pass (King's Cross St.Pancras (PD)) [Waiting] Kevan : Pass (Dollis Hill (JL)) [Hoarding 2 Bronze, 2 Gold] Ole : Pass [Recycling] [Inverting Stack at Neasden] [Fairlop Wild] Kevan : Farkle (Dollis Hill (JL)) Ole : [Speed Limit on CL: 8] Pass [Courier Call (Random)] [Begging] Kevan : Farkle (Dollis Hill (JL)) Ole : Pass [Begging] Kevan : Farkle (Dollis Hill (JL)) Ole : [LV+3] [Speed Limit on CL: 6] Dollis Hill (JL) { Comments : 0:10 First gear... 0:00 -2 Bu Slowing down the Circle (on New Cross Gate) 0:10 +1 Bk No change of line - getting on the board ========== 0:20 -2 Bu, +1 Bk LV+=3 Charge+=0 That should be OK, then. } From Mon Jul 26 14:31:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21182 invoked by uid 7770); 26 Jul 1999 21:29:52 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 21:29:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 3681 invoked from network); 26 Jul 1999 21:29:52 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 21:29:52 -0000 Received: from opus (p413-078.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.218.78]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA03954 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:29:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <02ac01bed7ad$fc2a57a0$4eda52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:03:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Wimbleware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just found this marvellous word on news://uk.transport.london . Ole From Tue Jul 27 01:07:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10395 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Jul 1999 07:41:47 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 07:41:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 13615 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 07:41:47 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 07:41:47 -0000 Received: from opus (p409-085.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.216.85]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20472 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:41:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <01ef01bed803$77f99760$4fc88e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:13:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Fw: Auction of Underground Memorabilia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From uk.transport.london: : : Dear all, : : just a quick message for those interested in buying Underground items : including a whole train!!, train equipment, station signs etc. : : London Underground is holding an auction on 31 July. : : Details at : : : http://www.londontransport.co.uk/underground/press/pn1193.htm : : Regards : : Paul : They might have a couple of MC signs... Ole From Tue Jul 27 09:02:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13999 invoked by uid 7770); 27 Jul 1999 16:02:29 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 16:02:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 11316 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 16:02:29 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 16:02:29 -0000 Received: from opus (p425-216.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.195.216]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00716; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:02:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <004001bed849$6afe1040$d8c38e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: , "Mornington" References: <7nkfin$oed@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:48:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : 0:10 | An extra five hours; all the Blues go on East India, which : | completes and destroys a six-Blue Stack - four shiny new : | Silvers for me, there. Oh, yes. I just noticed the hole. There are a number of Actions with scalable cost. Combine any one of these with Stack 'em High, and you've got a fortune. Jespersen!!! Ole From kevan@d... Thu Jul 29 05:51:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 7796 invoked by uid 7770); 29 Jul 1999 12:51:09 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 12:51:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 30546 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1999 12:51:09 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 12:51:09 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 1999 13:51:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:51:02 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7npinm$ikbe@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <004001bed849$6afe1040$d8c38e81@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : 0:10 | An extra five hours; all the Blues go on East India, which > : | completes and destroys a six-Blue Stack - four shiny new > : | Silvers for me, there. > > Oh, yes. > I just noticed the hole. There are a number of Actions with scalable cost. > Combine any one of these with Stack 'em High, and you've got a fortune. Possibly; it boils down to interpretation - Rule 1.14.2 (Stack 'em High) gives rewards if "a Token Stack has six Tokens where it had less than six before"; arguably if that Token Stack didn't exist during the previous Turn, it can't be considered to have had any number of Tokens in it. (The ruleset does suffer from occasional confusion between "a Stack of Tokens" and "the space in which Tokens would be Stacked".) What solutions do you recommend? Banning same-colour patterns seems the most obvious, I suppose, but it'd be a shame to lose the "intuitive pattern" thing; I know I've been a lot quicker to spot potential Stacks since we amended this one, which seems an undeniably good thing. Wording it definitively as "must complete a Stack that existed during the previous Turn" would cure things a bit, I think, without being particualrly exploitable. I'm not sure how it should be worded, though. (Should you be able to, for instance, Helsinki away a single-black-Token stack and slam six Blues in its place for a prize?) > Jespersen!!! > > Eprop, anyone? Have you taken over the throne of Speaker, yet, Snow? Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Sat Jul 31 01:26:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 727 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Jul 1999 08:26:06 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 08:26:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 31493 invoked from network); 31 Jul 1999 08:26:06 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 08:26:06 -0000 Received: from opus (p403-014.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.213.14]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15543 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:26:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <011501bedb2e$51912d80$0ed552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7npinm$ikbe@eGroups.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:13:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : : Possibly; it boils down to interpretation - Rule 1.14.2 (Stack 'em High) : gives rewards if "a Token Stack has six Tokens where it had less than : six before"; arguably if that Token Stack didn't exist during the : previous : Turn, it can't be considered to have had any number of Tokens in it. Do you mean: It cannot have the attribute, or = 0? : (The ruleset does suffer from occasional confusion between "a Stack of : Tokens" and "the space in which Tokens would be Stacked".) : : What solutions do you recommend? Banning same-colour patterns seems the : most obvious, I suppose, but it'd be a shame to lose the "intuitive : pattern" thing; I know I've been a lot quicker to spot potential Stacks : since we amended this one, which seems an undeniably good thing. We could modify the 'all in the same Stack'-requirement to 'place all on one Stack, but only one Action's Tokens on the same Stack' or somesuch. We would need to modify the scalable Actions, then. : : Wording it definitively as "must complete a Stack that existed during : the previous Turn" would cure things a bit, I think, without being : particualrly exploitable. I'm not sure how it should be worded, though. : (Should you be able to, for instance, Helsinki away a : single-black-Token stack and slam six Blues in its place for a prize?) We could say that a Stack ceases to exist the moment it has zero Tokens. : : > Jespersen!!! : > : > : : Eprop, anyone? Have you taken over the throne of Speaker, yet, Snow? : Well, have you? Ole From Sat Jul 31 05:30:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18500 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Jul 1999 12:30:49 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 12:30:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 25283 invoked from network); 31 Jul 1999 12:30:49 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 12:30:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 5821 invoked from network); 31 Jul 1999 12:30:48 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 12:30:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 11013 invoked from network); 31 Jul 1999 12:30:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.117) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 12:30:47 -0000 Message-ID: <019b01bedb50$75aea900$757a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <7npinm$ikbe@eGroups.com> <011501bedb2e$51912d80$0ed552c3@opus> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:05:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ole Andersen Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 9:13 AM > : > : Eprop, anyone? Have you taken over the throne of Speaker, yet, Snow? Sorry, didn't see this the first time round, too close to the sigs. > Well, have you? Well only Kevan has (publically) made any remark on the subject either way. I think Dunx is waiting until a majority say they are in favour. I got the impression most people were in the "leave it dormant for a while" camp. However, I'm happy to have a go if enough people say "aye". Snow -The telephones of placidity shall inherit the meek. From Sat Jul 31 06:40:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16346 invoked by uid 7770); 31 Jul 1999 13:40:40 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 13:40:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 28979 invoked from network); 31 Jul 1999 13:40:41 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 13:40:41 -0000 Received: from opus (p434-072.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.200.72]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20821 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:40:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <028001bedb5a$44bf9b60$0ed552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7npinm$ikbe@eGroups.com> <011501bedb2e$51912d80$0ed552c3@opus> <019b01bedb50$75aea900$757a38d4@snow> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:29:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : : Well only Kevan has (publically) made any remark on the subject either way. : I think Dunx is waiting until a majority say they are in favour. : : I got the impression most people were in the "leave it dormant for a while" : camp. However, I'm happy to have a go if enough people say "aye". : Eye! I have enjoyed the 'thinking pause', but all good things come to end, and then other good things begin. Ole From Sun Aug 1 18:54:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15667 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Aug 1999 01:53:32 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 1999 01:53:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 8074 invoked from network); 2 Aug 1999 01:53:27 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 1999 01:53:27 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA29462; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:53:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029341; Mon, 2 Aug 99 11:53:07 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:51:44 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:51:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, July 31, 1999 10:06 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > I got the impression most people were in the "leave it dormant for a > while" camp. However, I'm happy to have a go if enough people say > "aye". I'm quite happy to leave it dormant and just play, but I'm not opposed to having a speaker. I'm happy just playing things out as they stand at the moment, buzzes on blue tokens included. Arbalests of the unconscious, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Mon Aug 2 16:09:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30137 invoked by uid 7770); 2 Aug 1999 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 1999 23:09:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 82 invoked from network); 2 Aug 1999 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 1999 23:09:33 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id QAA05735 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:09:30 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma005347; Mon Aug 2 23:08:01 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id QAA09505 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:07:59 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 882567C1.007F34B7 ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:09:25 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <882567C1.007F3400.00@s...> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:07:54 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Greetings all... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have finally done it, yes that's right, I promised that I would rejoin Mornomic when I had email access again, and this comes courtesy of the nice folks at Seagate who have seen fit to employ me here in Silicon Valley for lots of cash, especially given the going rate for new PhD's in the UK. Last one to Ongar farkles. miKi From Mon Aug 2 22:23:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8858 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Aug 1999 05:23:44 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 05:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 7604 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1999 05:23:45 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 05:23:45 -0000 Received: from opus (p412-106.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.217.234]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16696 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:23:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00f701bedd70$55d439c0$ead952c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <882567C1.007F3400.00@s...> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:21:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Greetings all... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit miKi wrote: : I have finally done it, yes that's right, I promised that I would rejoin : Mornomic when I had email access again, and this comes courtesy of the nice : folks at Seagate who have seen fit to employ me here in Silicon Valley for : lots of cash, especially given the going rate for new PhD's in the UK. : : Last one to Ongar farkles. : miKi : Welcome back. You arrive in the middle of a Speaker transistion. Dunx is leaving the throne, and Snow seems to be entering it. And the games are: Brooke-Taylor: (Chateau d'Eau) Kevan to play Cryer: (Vanilla) Kevan to play Garden: (Finsbury) Grimace to play Lyttleton: (Long Game) Kevan to play Rushton: (Ruttsborough) Kevan to play (once my randomness arrives) Ole From kevan@d... Tue Aug 3 00:52:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 26403 invoked by uid 7770); 3 Aug 1999 07:52:25 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 07:52:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 31962 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1999 07:52:26 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 1999 07:52:26 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 1999 08:52:25 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:52:18 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7o673i$kt8i@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00f701bedd70$55d439c0$ead952c3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Greetings all... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit miKi wrote:- > I have finally done it, yes that's right, I promised that I would rejoin > Mornomic when I had email access again, Bravo. Good to see you back. And Ole wrote:- > And the games are: > > Brooke-Taylor: (Chateau d'Eau) Kevan to play > Cryer: (Vanilla) Kevan to play > Garden: (Finsbury) Grimace to play > Lyttleton: (Long Game) Kevan to play > Rushton: (Ruttsborough) Kevan to play (once my randomness arrives) Um. Sorry to hold everything up. I've really got alarming little spare time at the moment, and most of that is spent beyond spitting distance of the Internet. I'll try and get some moves in over lunch. Kevan From Tue Aug 3 19:30:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6873 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 02:30:39 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 02:30:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 16757 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 02:30:39 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 02:30:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 24486 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 02:30:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.86) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 02:30:37 -0000 Message-ID: <010401bede21$4bd6adc0$567a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:12:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Fifteen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Proposal 841 - Eating at Home [Multiple] 1. There's No Place Like McDonald's In Rule 1.4.18 - The Emporium insert at the end of the first block of text: A Home-Cooked Meal may only be purchased at the Player's Home Station. In the Possession table, insert: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Home-Cooked Meal | 1 Br | Edible, Huge | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ after: A Player may sell any of the above goods ([Selling ]) back to the Emporium at half price (rounding all fractions down) provided e is at a Station where that item may be Purchased. insert: A Home-Cooked Meal may not be sold. 2. It's terrifyingly Nutricious! In Rule 1.4.16 - Playing with Food after: A Player may perform the 20-minute Pre-Move Action of [Eating ] at the start of eir Turn, where is an Edible Possession that the Player is carrying. Upon performance of this Action, the Actioning Player gains Line Velocity equal to the cost of the Victual in Bronze Tokens, and the Eaten Possession is destroyed. insert: For the purpose of this rule, a Home-Cooked Meal is considered to have a cost of 3 Bronze Tokens. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Snow -Who can do things with a CD most people can't do with a lava lamp. From Tue Aug 3 19:30:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6896 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 02:30:41 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 02:30:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 16767 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 02:30:40 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 02:30:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 24489 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 02:30:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.86) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 02:30:39 -0000 Message-ID: <010501bede21$4cb88240$567a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Cc: "Dunx" References: <882567C1.007F3400.00@s...> <00f701bedd70$55d439c0$ead952c3@opus> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 03:13:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Greetings all.../New Speaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole Andersen > miKi wrote: > > : I have finally done it, yes that's right, I promised that I would rejoin > : Mornomic when I had email access again, Hello, pleased to meet you. I assume you are now active? >and this comes courtesy of the > nice > : folks at Seagate who have seen fit to employ me here in Silicon Valley for > : lots of cash, especially given the going rate for new PhD's in the UK. Doing something interesting I hope? > You arrive in the middle of a Speaker transistion. > Dunx is leaving the throne, and Snow seems to be entering it. OK, no one has said anything against my becoming Speaker (although only Kevan and Ole have said anything in favour) and no other candidates have stepped forward, so I'm going to declare myself Speaker as of Tues 10th August 17.58. If anyone objects you should inform Dunx (asking for anonymity if you wish) before that time. Otherwise, I declare a new Mornomic week to start Tues 10th August 17.59 (next Tuesday). I have reposted this week's proposal since it didn't make it to the list the first time round. Snow -A renegade carrot of tranquility. From Wed Aug 4 00:15:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23728 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 07:15:53 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 07:15:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 12365 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 07:15:51 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 07:15:51 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA16063; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:15:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016033; Wed, 4 Aug 99 17:15:35 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:14:02 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:14:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Greetings all... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:08 AM, Richard_M_Brockie@n... [SMTP:Richard_M_Brockie@n...] wrote: > I have finally done it, yes that's right, I promised that I would rejoin > Mornomic when I had email access again, and this comes courtesy of the > nice folks at Seagate who have seen fit to employ me here in Silicon > Valley for lots of cash, especially given the going rate for new PhD's > in the UK. So are you allowed to tell us what's new in hard disk research? :-) Grand to see you, sir, and hope you make sense of the rules. If you want any help on playing, let me know. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Aug 4 00:17:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24674 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 07:17:54 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 07:17:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 19198 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 07:17:51 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 07:17:51 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA16655; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:17:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016525; Wed, 4 Aug 99 17:17:19 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:15:53 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:15:43 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:12 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > Snow > -Who can do things with a CD most people can't do with a lava lamp. I've got to know - what is this ability, exactly? Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Aug 4 02:35:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9506 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 09:35:09 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 09:35:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 9036 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 09:35:10 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 09:35:10 -0000 Received: from opus (p436-045.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.201.45]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27283 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:35:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <021a01bede5c$a0115300$5b842fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:27:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Not Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul quoted Snow, and asked: : > Snow : > -Who can do things with a CD most people can't do with a lava lamp. : : I've got to know - what is this ability, exactly? Well, what *can* people do with lava lamps? Ole From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Aug 4 06:13:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8391 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 13:13:02 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 13:13:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 16296 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 13:13:02 -0000 Received: from storm.twcol.com (204.210.251.99) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 13:13:02 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA21235 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:18:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:15:54 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Crescent... Mornington Crescent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who might have missed it since Delphi went down, Yoz has reposted the casino scene from 'Goldfinger' at http://www.h2g2.com/A132157 --Riff "Press down on the medulla oblongata! Five bucks says he smells burnt toast!" --Sam & Max, Freelance Police From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Wed Aug 4 11:02:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24867 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 17:29:37 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 17:29:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 27886 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 17:29:34 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 17:29:34 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id KAA26188 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:29:27 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma026117; Wed Aug 4 17:28:52 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id KAA06041 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:28:51 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 882567C3.0060281C ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:30:17 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <882567C3.00602615.00@s...> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:28:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Activity... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow - please consider me active from this moment. miKi From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Wed Aug 4 14:32:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9426 invoked by uid 7770); 4 Aug 1999 21:29:16 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 21:29:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 22301 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 21:29:15 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 21:29:15 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id OAA24871 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:29:10 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma024819; Wed Aug 4 21:28:58 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id OAA25128 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:28:57 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 882567C3.00762263 ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:30:20 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <882567C3.007620A4.00@s...> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:28:45 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Game 11... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow, I declare that I wish to join Game 11, The Long Game... My, my, how the rules have changed since I was here last - the station currents thing was just being discussed, and Token Running was still legal. I love the idea of getting a Gold Token for busking with a piano, and the complete impracticality of actually carrying it around - kudos to whoever came up with that one. PaulWay, if you would be my mentor, that would be great, but I cannot divulge any secrets about herd, or even hard disk drives as I have only been here 2.5 weeks, so still no nothing. People who have visited my (now woefully out of data) website - link on the players' pages - will know that my PhD was in Astronomy, yet here I am working for a hard disk drive manufacturer. Well, it is not as crazy as it sounds - Astronomy is basically Physics applied to the universe, and I am working as a physicist, so there is a (tenuous) connection. Still manding the gap, miKi From Wed Aug 4 18:23:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12306 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Aug 1999 01:23:38 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:23:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 11802 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 01:23:37 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:23:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 70 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 01:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:23:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 26321 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 01:23:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.65) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:23:35 -0000 Message-ID: <01f701bedee1$14b70860$417b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <882567C3.007620A4.00@s...> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:50:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Game 11... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit miKi said: > Snow, I declare that I wish to join Game 11, The Long Game... OK, you can fit in between Riff and Ole. Snow -Who is being viciously attacked by a swarm of 2 huge moths with wingspans in excess of 1.5cm. From Wed Aug 4 18:30:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15910 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Aug 1999 01:28:07 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:28:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 12521 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 01:28:06 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:28:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 31241 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 01:23:39 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:23:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 26323 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 01:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.65) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 01:23:36 -0000 Message-ID: <01f801bedee1$154c91a0$417b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <021a01bede5c$a0115300$5b842fc3@opus> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:19:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Not Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > Paul quoted Snow, and asked: > : > Snow > : > -Who can do things with a CD most people can't do with a lava lamp. > : > : I've got to know - what is this ability, exactly? Chuck it like a frisbee, use it to reflect sunlight into the eyes of passing motorists, use it as a Christmas tree decoration, put it in the microwave for exciting disco effects......put it in a CD player and play it. > Well, what *can* people do with lava lamps? You can use them as a portible heater, but only if you aren't running a computer, printer, modem, stereo, active speakers, TV and clock-radio from the single power-socket on that side of the room. Snow -Who can do things with a lava lamp most people can't do with a Kenny from South Park life-sized soft toy. From Wed Aug 4 21:36:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14322 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Aug 1999 04:36:19 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 04:36:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 25526 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 04:36:20 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 04:36:20 -0000 Received: from opus (p420-036.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.221.164]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA02764 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:36:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00bf01bedefc$0a9f75e0$44c88e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <021a01bede5c$a0115300$5b842fc3@opus> <01f801bedee1$154c91a0$417b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:33:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Not Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : > : I've got to know - what is this ability, exactly? : : Chuck it like a frisbee, use it to reflect sunlight into the eyes of passing : motorists, use it as a Christmas tree decoration, put it in the microwave : for exciting disco effects......put it in a CD player and play it. Some ritual. Are any of the parts optional? And - more seriously: Do you have any preferred Speaker address? Ole From dunx@d... Thu Aug 5 03:47:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 19716 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Aug 1999 10:47:40 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 10:47:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 26693 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 10:47:41 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 10:47:41 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.26] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 1999 11:47:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 03:47:25 -0700 From: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7obq3t$uh5m@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00bf01bedefc$0a9f75e0$44c88e81@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Not Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote in response to Snow's rather outre behaviour with CDs: > And - more seriously: Do you have any preferred Speaker address? If I may interject... my intention in setting up a discrete email address for my own Speakership was that the Speaker mail address should remain as speaker@d... no matter who the Speaker actually is (it is an entirely separate mailbox from my own email address). I'll be giving Snow the relevant passwords shortly. Obviously, if Snow doesn't want to do that then that is his prerogative, but I just thought I'd mention it. Cheers. From kevan@d... Thu Aug 5 04:05:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 30198 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Aug 1999 11:05:04 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 11:05:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 29889 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 11:05:05 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 11:05:05 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 1999 12:05:05 -0000 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 04:04:55 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7obr4n$l844@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <010401bede21$4bd6adc0$567a38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To respond briefly to this week's Proposal, before I forget... > Proposal 841 - Eating at Home [Multiple] Basically allowing an cheap opening Move with an LV of six, or - more horrifyingly - a quick return to high LVs after performing a "[Home]" Action. I don't really see any need to offer such an offset to the zero-LV Homing drawback, to be honest. It does allow a more interesting variety of opening moves, which is a good thing, but just seems too cheap to be fair, in all. Perhaps allowing Players to purchase any Food at their Home Station, since they'll have it in their cupboards, would be more balanced (and would lessen the bonus for picking a BR Station as your residence). Hmm. Getting back into Nomic mode, Kevan From Thu Aug 5 07:40:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3982 invoked by uid 7770); 5 Aug 1999 14:40:24 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 14:40:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 17087 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1999 14:40:24 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 1999 14:40:24 -0000 Received: from opus (p428-117.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.197.117]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14688 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:40:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <028501bedf50$6cd308e0$dc832fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7obr4n$l844@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:20:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : > Proposal 841 - Eating at Home [Multiple] : : It does allow a more interesting variety of opening moves, which is a : good thing, but just seems too cheap to be fair, in all. Perhaps : allowing Players to purchase any Food at their Home Station, since : they'll have it in their cupboards, would be more balanced (and would : lessen the bonus for picking a BR Station as your residence). Hmm. Point taken. Proposal withdrawn. Ole From Thu Aug 5 19:01:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9715 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Aug 1999 02:01:41 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:01:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 17662 invoked from network); 6 Aug 1999 02:01:41 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:01:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 23297 invoked from network); 6 Aug 1999 02:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.212) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:01:40 -0000 Message-ID: <00c001bedfaf$8f5473e0$d47a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7obq3t$uh5m@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:45:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Not Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said: > Ole wrote in response to Snow's rather outre behaviour with CDs: > > And - more seriously: Do you have any preferred Speaker address? > > If I may interject... my intention in setting up a discrete email > address for my own Speakership was that the Speaker mail address should > remain as speaker@d... no matter who the Speaker actually is (it is > an entirely separate mailbox from my own email address). I'll be giving > Snow the relevant passwords shortly. Received. Yes, I intend to keep the Speaker's email address the same. Snow -Who's got a funny six-legged spider-thing in his bathroom. From Thu Aug 5 19:01:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9772 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Aug 1999 02:01:43 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:01:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 17671 invoked from network); 6 Aug 1999 02:01:43 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:01:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 23299 invoked from network); 6 Aug 1999 02:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.212) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 02:01:42 -0000 Message-ID: <00c101bedfaf$909afda0$d47a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7obr4n$l844@eGroups.com> <028501bedf50$6cd308e0$dc832fc3@opus> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:47:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole Andersen said: > Kevan wrote: > > : > Proposal 841 - Eating at Home [Multiple] > : > : It does allow a more interesting variety of opening moves, which is a > : good thing, but just seems too cheap to be fair, in all. Perhaps > : allowing Players to purchase any Food at their Home Station, since > : they'll have it in their cupboards, would be more balanced (and would > : lessen the bonus for picking a BR Station as your residence). Hmm. > > Point taken. Proposal withdrawn. Confirmed. Players might like to vote anyway (for nothing) if they want the decisivness Kudos bonus. Snow -Who can do things to a life-sized Kenny from South Park soft toy most people wish they could do to their boy/girlfriend(s). From kevan@d... Fri Aug 6 00:43:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 96 invoked by uid 7770); 6 Aug 1999 07:43:35 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 07:43:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 23384 invoked from network); 6 Aug 1999 07:43:33 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 1999 07:43:33 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 1999 08:43:33 -0000 Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 00:43:32 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7oe3n4$of56@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00c101bedfaf$909afda0$d47a38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Players might like to vote anyway (for nothing) if they want the decisivness > Kudos bonus. I think precedence says that we should get it anyway (based on the cases where all Proposals for a given Week are from the same Player, plus - I think - one Week where we didn't get any Proposals), although looking at the logic it seems a bit suspect. Maybe Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos) could use a little ambiguity-smiting. > -Who can do things to a life-sized Kenny from South Park soft toy most > people wish they could do to their boy/girlfriend(s). You're scaring me. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Sat Aug 7 14:23:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8702 invoked by uid 7770); 7 Aug 1999 21:23:44 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 1999 21:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 11197 invoked from network); 7 Aug 1999 21:23:43 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 1999 21:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 28622 invoked from network); 7 Aug 1999 16:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Aug 1999 16:45:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 22310 invoked from network); 7 Aug 1999 16:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.5) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 7 Aug 1999 16:45:39 -0000 Message-ID: <00e101bee0f4$2d2fc520$057a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7oe3n4$of56@eGroups.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 16:45:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3, Week 15 -Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan said: > > Players might like to vote anyway (for nothing) if they want the > decisivness > > Kudos bonus. > > I think precedence says that we should get it anyway (based on the > cases where all Proposals for a given Week are from the same Player, > plus - I think - one Week where we didn't get any Proposals), although > looking at the logic it seems a bit suspect. Maybe Rule 0.9.1 (Kudos) > could use a little ambiguity-smiting. I feel that the spirit of the Rule (since the wording is ambiguous) is that Players should be rewarded for making the effort to vote, hence some form of effort should be required (a blank vote). On the other hand, if there is a precedent then that should be followed (I have no recollection of it, so it might be from before my time here). Snow -Who is wondering whether it should be "whom". From kevan@d... Tue Aug 10 07:06:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 10180 invoked by uid 7770); 10 Aug 1999 12:49:25 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 1999 12:49:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 19684 invoked from network); 10 Aug 1999 12:49:24 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 1999 12:49:24 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 1999 13:49:24 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 05:49:22 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7op74i$h4oj@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Mediocrity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a brief plug for a Mediocrity mailing list, for anyone who missed its announcement on the Nomic Bulletin Board; Luke Schubert, who some of you will remember from Thring, has recently set up an eGroups list for the playing and discussion of Mediocrity (which, again, some of you will remember as being one of Thring's sub-games). It currently lacks enough people to warrant a game, though, which is a bit sad - if you're at all interested, your presence would be appreciated. For details, wander to:- http://www.egroups.com/group/mediocrity/info.html And for a bit of background on the game, if you've never heard of it:- http://goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au/~geoff/mediocrity.html Cheers, Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Wed Aug 11 00:56:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30112 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:42 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 7038 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:43 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 25217 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:40 -0000 Message-ID: <00f801bee392$76ce1420$607a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:29:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Swearing in Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When in the Course of Mornomic Events, it becomes necessary for a new Speaker to assume the Powers of the Crescent, it falls upon er shoulders the duty to protect and uphold the rights of all Players instilled in them by London Transport. Among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Mornington Crescent. We hold these Truths to be self-evident until the next Ruleset change. The Speaker swears that e will faithfully execute the office of Speaker of Mornington Nomic, and will, to the best of er ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Ruleset and all who sail in er. The Speaker is empowered by the Players of the Game of Mornington Nomic to go boldly where no Speaker has boldly gone before boldly, to seek out new Stations and to destroy Podumes of Infinite Darkness whenever they threaten to undermine the Ruleset Where do you want to go today? MN Speaker -Forgive those who have shunted against us. From Wed Aug 11 01:44:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29865 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:23 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 5713 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:22 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 25185 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:19 -0000 Message-ID: <00f401bee392$6a5d91c0$607a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:10:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Game States Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Game Lounge To move 16(Chateau d'Eau) Brook-Tayler RiffRaff 18(Vanilla) Cryer PaulWay 13(Finsbury Park) Garden PaulWay 11(The Long Game) Lyttleton RiffRaff 15(Ruttsborough '58) Rushton Ole From Wed Aug 11 01:44:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29946 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:28 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 6970 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:26 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 25187 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:24 -0000 Message-ID: <00f501bee392$6d0495e0$607a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:10:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 16 - Voting Results for Week 15 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Proposal Name F P A Q Result ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 841 Eating at Home --Withdrawn-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 841 (Ole) --Withdrawn-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow - KUDOS --------------------------------------------------------------- Initial: 11 10 2 0 26 16 13 2 2 2 Halved: 1 0 13 8 6 1 1 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR Votes: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGA Votes: I I +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Decisive: n n +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 [a] Voting/Own: a a +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 c c EP FOR: t t +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGA: i i +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Digit/Pulse: v v +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 e e Awards: +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 [*] Kudos Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This Week: +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 +3 +6 Final: 11 10 4 3 16 11 9 4 4 7 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimace Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [*] Ruttsborough Award (+1/FOR) - none IMCS Clarity Award (+3) - none CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - none Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - none Clever Bear (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) [a] The precedent appears to be that if there are no Proposals in a given Week then all Players receive the decisiveness bonus. MN Speaker -With 10% extra MegaBass From Wed Aug 11 01:44:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29971 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:32 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 5742 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:31 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 25189 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:28 -0000 Message-ID: <00f601bee392$6fab9a00$607a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:15:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I've updated everything on the website that needs updating with the following exceptions: 1) Player Points table - It makes me come out in a cold sweat just thinking about it. I'll do it tomorrow. 2) There are a few problems with the Game Archive: a) Game 12 is missing, if anyone has the game in their email archive could you send me a copy with approximate start/end dates. If not, can anyone remember which Lounge it was in? b) Does anyone know approximatly when Game 17 started (Capture the Flag, Cryer). c) What happened to Game 7 that was so terrible it couldn't be put up on the website? If there's anything on the website that anyone thinks I should have done, or any Speakering generally that I have overlooked could you tell me please. Thanks. MN Speaker From Wed Aug 11 01:45:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30089 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:41 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 7013 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:38 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 25191 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 00:43:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 00:43:32 -0000 Message-ID: <00f701bee392$720f7aa0$607a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:27:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Sixteen ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 842 - Emptying the Cupboards [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.18 - The Emporium, after: Any Player may purchase the following Possessions, at the following costs, by playing the ten-minute neutral Action of "[Purchasing ]" at any British Rail Station, where "" is the Possession being purchased. Dispensable Possessions may be purchased at any Station. insert: Additionally, Edible Possessions may be purchased at the Player's Home Station. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 843 - Spread'em [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.19 - Token Tracking, replace * All Tokens paid for a particular Action must be placed on the same Stack. Any Tokens surplus to the capacity of the Stack are destroyed. with * No two Tokens paid for a particular Action may be placed on the same Stack. * Any Tokens surplus to the capacity of a Stack are destroyed. { Avoiding the "Double Helsinki - Blue Stack" hole, hopefully. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 844 - Follow the Purple Line, Sir! [Multiple] 1. In Rule 1.6.1 - Line Velocity, replace Each Player has a Line Velocity (abbreviated to "LV"), being an integer number between zero and ten, which represents the speed at which eir Piece is moving around the Map. A Player's LV remains unchanged from the end of eir Turn until the start of eir next Turn, unless modified during another Player's Turn. If a Player's LV is ever less than zero, it immediately becomes zero. If it is even more than ten, it immediately becomes ten. with Each Player has a Line Velocity (abbreviated to "LV"), being a non-negative integer number, which represents the speed at which eir Piece is moving around the Map. A Player's LV remains unchanged from the end of eir Turn until the start of eir next Turn, unless modified during another Player's Turn. If a Player's LV is ever less than zero, it immediately becomes zero. 2. Repeal Rule 1.6.4 - Last One to Amersham is a Cissy While a player's piece has a charge greater than +100% or less than -100%, eir LV may be increased (but only by the normal means) up to a maximum of 20. If a player's LV is above 10 when eir charge is calculated, and eir new charge is less than +100% or greater than -100%, eir LV may remain at its current value until lowered but may not be raised again by any means until it has fallen below 10, at which point the maximum LV for that player is reset to the default value. 3. In Rule 2.2.1 - Terminal Velocity, replace If, at the start of eir Turn before any other Player Actions a Player has an LV of 10 or more, and e does not (and is not forced to by any other Rule) reduce it below 10 before eir Move, e may make a Special Move to any Terminus which e shares a Line with, provided that reaching it would not involve a change of Line Direction (this option is in addition to the standard Moves available through eir natural LV-dependent Piece Movement and any Special Moves available). with If, at the very beginning of eir Turn, a Player has an LV equal to or above the Speed Limit of eir current Line, and e does not (and is not forced to by any other Rule) reduce it below the Speed Limit of eir current Line before eir Move, e may make a Special Move to any Terminus which e shares a Line with, provided that reaching it would not involve a change of Line Direction (this option is in addition to the standard Moves available through eir natural LV-dependent Piece Movement and any Special Moves available). 4. In Rule 2.4.1 - Fast and Furious, replace Line Velocity has a maximum of fifteen, rather than ten. with All Lines and Line Segments have an initial Speed Limit of 15. { Doing away with the general LV-limit of 10. Every line gets a local, adjustable, limit. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 845 - Ludomania [Multiple] 1. Renumber Section 2.10, thus: Rule 2.10.1 - The Game Rule 2.10.2 - Moves Rule 2.10.3 - Line Velocity Rule 2.10.4 - Actions Rule 2.10.5 - Knuff of it! (former 2.10.4.1) Rule 2.10.6 - States of Play (former 2.10.5) Rule 2.10.7 - Special Stations (former 2.10.5 (sic) Home Stations) Rule 2.10.8 - Visiting Home Stations (former 2.10.5.1) 2. In (new number) 2.10.7, insert last: Holy Stations provide no protection beyond what is mentioned in Rule 2.10.5. 3. Create a new: Rule 2.10.9 - Get that Elbow out of my Ear! If the game has more than 2 players at the beginning of the game, each player has fewer Pieces: +--------------+------------------+ | # of players | # of Pieces each | +--------------+------------------+ | 3-5 | 3 | | 6-9 | 2 | | 10- | 1 | +--------------+------------------+ { Changing the illegal numbering, correcting Holy Stations, and reducing the number of Pieces. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 846 - Vanilla and Stabilizers [Enactment] Create a new Rule 0.5.* - The Stabilizer There is an Entity called The Stabilizer. The Stabilizer has one vote, which it will cast AGAINST any Proposal to create a new Rule in the Vanilla ruleset (Volume 1). The Stabilizer is not counted for the purpose of determining Quorum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 847 - Ambiguity Sminting [Multiple] Rewrite Rule 0.9.1 - Kudos Every Player has a Kudos score (an integer), which is kept in an Official Document known as the Kudos Chart. The Kudos Chart is distributed by the Speaker at the end of each Week along with all other relevant Official Documents. A Player's Kudos score for each Week is calculated by determining the Kudos earned for that Week and adding that to half of the previous Week's Kudos score (rounding down half Kudos). If a Player is Inactive at the end of the Week, no changes shall be made to eir Kudos. When a Player joins the game of Mornington Nomic, e starts with a Kudos score of zero and is considered to have had a Kudos score of zero in the previous Week also. At the end of each Week, each Player's Kudos score is adjusted according to the following table. +---------------------------------------------------------+----------------+ | Event | Kudos Modifier | +---------------------------------------------------------+----------------+ | Each Vote FOR one of eir Proposals | +1 | | Each Vote AGAINST one of eir Proposals | -1 | | Each Vote FOR one of eir Proposals, made by emself | -3 | | | | | Making one or more valid Votes (*) | +2 | | Voting FOR or AGAINST all Proposals besides eir own (+) | +2 | | Voting FOR all Proposals that pass, and AGAINST all | +5 | | Proposals that fail, besides eir own Proposals, in | | | one Week (+) | | +---------------------------------------------------------+----------------+ (*) -In Weeks when no Proposals have been submitted a BLANK vote must be made to receive this bonus. (+) -Players must make at least one valid non-PASS vote to recieve these bonuses. In Rule 0.5.2 - Voting and Proposal Adoption add to the end of the second paragraph: If there are no Proposals in a Nomic Week then a vote of BLANK is valid. { 1 Kudos can be zero. 2 Kudos should be rounded down when halved. 3 Players will get a +2 Kudos bonus for "Making an effort". 4 Players can get another +2 Kudos for being "Decisive". 5 Reducing the incentive to make FOR/AGAINST votes when the Player is undecided or doesn't have the time to study the Proposal properly. 6 BLANK Vote is made valid. } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 848 - Bear Necessities [Multiple] In Rule 0.9.4 - Fish and Fowl Replace the line: Who's a Clever Bear? Award: +3 Kudos to the most nominated Player with Who's a Clever Bear? Award: +3 Kudos { I think this was a mistake. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 849 - Found, Found, Found [Amendment] Amend the fourth paragraph of Rule 1.7.53 (Lost & Found) from:- "If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e adds 5 to eir roll." with:- "If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e instead rolls a twenty-sided die and specifies a number between zero and eighty - the specified number is added to the number rolled. A roll of four or less, however, remains unmodified." { To give some reasonable bonus to Finding at Paddington; the current plus-five offers a very, very slim incentive, doing little more than tweaking the table to include "1-5; First item in Lost Property Box". } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 850 - Quantum Sleep [Amendment] In Rule 1.8.11 (Charge Spiral), replace "does not involve a decrease" with "involves an increase", and "does not involve an increase" with "involves an decrease". { As demonstrated in the current Ruttsborough Game, it's a bit too limiting to deny same-Current Moves, and the Rule becomes quite broken when combined with a Dollis Hill Loop. Either way, this restores the original wording and intention. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 851 - A Nation Turns Its Back [Amendment] To the second paragraph of Rule 1.7.60 (Did you see That?), add:- "If any of those Possessions may be dropped, they are instead dropped at their owner's current Location." ...and add "non-Indestructable" to the list of items which are lost. { Droppable stuff should really be pick-uppable again, and surprising Clamps and things from people is a touch ridiculous. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 852 - Ghost-Train Scenery [Amendment] Rename Rule 1.4.35 (Not Hampsters) to "Not Hamsters" (damn me), and add "a Ghost Station" to the list of Rat haunts. { A hugely obvious and overlooked residence for our verminous friends. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 853 - A Purple Shirt and All The Rest [Amendment] Reword the first paragraph Rule 1.14.2 (Stack 'em High, Sell 'em Cheap) to:- If, after performing a [ Token on ] Action, or after placing Tokens spent in the performing of an Action, a Token Stack has exactly six Tokens - and if it had between one and five Tokens during the previous Turn - the current Player may be eligible for a Token reward. { Bit of a tweak to avoid over-easy "play an expensive Action, build a new Stack and claim the prize" - you only get it for completing Stacks which were started during previous Turns. } And remove the "BkBkBkBkBkBk" reward { Such should be a horrid great uncappable Kafka Sinkhole, of course; as it stands you can easily destroy a five-Token Kafka by capping it with a Black. *And* you'd get a reward. Tsk. } --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 854 - Practical Reproposals [Amendment] In Rule 0.5.4 - Abstentions and Quorum rewrite the last paragraph to read: If a Proposal fails to reach Quorum, its Proposer may repropose it unchanged during one of the next two Nomic Weeks - this reproposal does not count towards the usual Weekly Proposal limit. { It is often impractical to contact the Proposer for the next Nomic Week. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 855 - Taxman [Amendment] Rewrite Rule 0.9.3 - Credit Where Credit is Due A Player can give any other Player a positive number of Kudos by announcing their intention on the list. The giving Player must state the number of Kudos being given, and the reason for the gift. Gifts must not reduce the giving Player to a negative number of Kudos. The exchange happens as soon as the Discussion Lounge receives the notification and the Speaker will record this gift in the Kudos Chart at the end of Nomic Week. { Eliminating the "tax loop-hole" where one Player can give another Kudos before eir own is halved and the other receives it after eirs is halved. } =============================================================================== Reproposals from Week 14: =============================================================================== Reproposal 856 - Gran Turismo [Multiple] /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - The Short Game \----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Short Game In the Short Game, the cost for the [Opening MC] action is 1 (one) Gold Token. /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 3.x - Gran Turismo \----------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 3.x.1 - Gran Turismo In a game of MC Gran Turismo, the Players must move to the MC equivalents on a number of transport networks before moving to Mornington Crescent. The Speaker designates the number and order of networks at the beginning of the game. All Players begin in London. Each Player must move to the MC equivalents in the specified order. Each [Opening MC equivalent] is priced according to the rules for the Short Game, while [Opening MC] is priced according to the Vanilla ruleset. Each network is played on as per the relevant rules for that network. The winner is the first Player to move to Mornington Crescent after having visited all the MC equivalents. Game States are specific to each network. Loop (and other) states do not apply to other networks and Players therein. Hats are globally valid, provided such hats exist in the various networks. Edibles are globally valid, provided such edibles exist in the various networks. Each Player may, once e enters a network, declare a Home Station in that network. A Player may have a maximum of one Home Station in each network. A Pleyer may not perform the [Home] Action, unless e has declared a Home Station in eir current network. A Player may move from one network to another by means of the [Plane to ] or [InterCity to ] Action, with being the name of the city moved to. In order to perform the [Plane to ], the Player must be at an Airport Interchange. If there is no Airport Interchange in , the [Plane to ] Action is, of course, void. After performing [Plane to ], the Player may perform a Special Move to an Airport Interchange in . In order to perform the [InterCity to ], the Player must be at a BR Station (or equivalent). If there is no BR Station (or equivalent) in , the [InterCity to ] Action is, of course, void. Furthermore, there must exist a railway connection between the cities in question. If it is unclear whether or not such a connection exists, the Speaker decides upon the existance (or non-existance) thereof. After performing [InterCity to ], the Player may perform a Special Move to a BR Station (or equivalent) in . The Actions [InterCity to ] and [Plane to ] ignore the maximum Turn duration mentioned in Rule 1.13.1. Additionally, performing the associated Move after ëither of these Actions is always legal with respect to Rule 1.13.1. No Action may be performed after [InterCity to ] or [Plane to ]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [InterCity to ]* Pre 3.x.1 60 1Si [InterCity to ]** Pre 3.x.1 300 1Si [InterCity to ]*** Pre 3.x.1 3 days 1Si [Plane to ]* Pre 3.x.1 30 1Go [Plane to ]** Pre 3.x.1 60 1Go [Plane to ]*** Pre 3.x.1 300 1Go [Plane to ]**** Pre 3.x.1 1 day 1Go *) same country **) same continent ***) Europe-Asia-Africa (any combination), or N.America-S.America (or vice versa) ****) any other ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reproposal 857 - The other Eye [Multiple] This proposal is in 3 parts. 1. Don't Shoot till You see the Red in his Eye [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.0 - Target Practice, replace Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that Action. with Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) no Player is Target of more than one Action, unless explicitly allowed for in the Rule defining that Action. 2. I'm No Peter Pan [Amendment] In Rule 1.10.5 - The Coming of Shadows replace A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Shadowing ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Shadowed Player) whose Piece's location is that of the Actioning Player's Piece. with A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Shadowing ]", provided that "" is a Player (known as the Shadowed Player) who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player. 3. Amend Rule 2.4.5 - Any Time You Like to have this wrding: Point 2 of Rule 1.10.0 does not apply: actions that target other Players may be performed in any quantity in the Post-Move phase of the Turn. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reproposal 858 - Euston Walkabout [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.10 - Walk the Walk, add * Euston (NT,VC) and Euston Square (CL,HC,MP) to the list of Stations within Walking Distance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reproposal 859 - No, it can't be Eaten [Multiple] Rule 1.9.x - Goo! A Player possessing a Goo Gun may perform the Action of "[Goo on ]". If the Goo Gun has a Voltage of 'n', can be a Station 'n' or fewer Stations from the location of the Actioning Player, but only in a straight line. Alternatively, can be a Station which the Actioning Player's Piece has passed through during eir Turn. When the Action [Goo on ] is played, the Station in question becomes Gooey until a Player passes through the Station during eir Move. A Gooey Station is marked in the GSD with (Goo) Any Move passing through or beginning at a Gooey Station requires a LV one higher than otherwise required. If several Gooey Stations are involved, the required LV is adjusted once for each such Station. When [Goo on ] is played, and a Player is occupying the said Station, the said Player becomes Gooey, and 'Goo' (a Small, Indestructible Possession) is placed in eir Luggage Rack. A Gooey Player needs a LV one higher than otherwise required in order to move. If a Gooey Player performs any Action that requires the Player to have a Papery Possession, e destroys the Papery Possession as well as the Goo in the process. A Gooey Player crossing the river stops being Gooey(thus destructing the Goo). Rule 1.4.x - Sticky! A Goo Gun is a Small Possession, and has an initial Voltage of 0 (zero). The Voltage of a Goo Gun can be increased by 'X' by playing the Action [Voltage+X], but only if the Actioning Player has played the Action [LV-X] or [LV+X] previously in eir Turn, with X having the same value in both Actions. The Voltage of a Goo Gun is set to 0 (zero) when the Action [Goo on ] is played. In the Luggage Rack, "Goo Gun(6)" is a Goo Gun with a Voltage of 6. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Goo on ] Neut 1.9.x -1 Bu [Voltage+X] Neut 1.4.x none +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Goo Gun(0) | 3 Br | Small | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -Big-up massive junglist Speaker in the house laying down some phat Proposals....tripping man. From Wed Aug 11 02:16:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5545 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 01:38:13 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 01:38:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 17889 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 01:38:12 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 01:38:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 26652 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 01:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.136) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 01:38:11 -0000 Message-ID: <012201bee39a$14a85f00$607a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 02:27:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: I hate computers. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ugg, I can't connect to dunx.org, it's broken my connection a couple of times. Since the break was during the sending of mail I'm not sure what got through. I've not received anything from eGroups yet, but it usually takes a while to get through the system. I'll check to see if everything got through tomorrow night and repost if it didn't, in the meantime the props and result are on Xoom for those who can't wait. Sorry. MN Speaker -Making a mess of his first Week End. From kevan@d... Wed Aug 11 08:52:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 8835 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 13:40:45 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 13:40:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 21212 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 13:40:45 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 13:40:45 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 1999 14:40:45 -0000 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 06:40:35 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7orugj$rr4n@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00f701bee392$720f7aa0$607a38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brief, brief comments. Anything that I've spared can be assumed to have gotten a thumbs-up. >Proposal 843 - Spread'em [Amendment] > > * No two Tokens paid for a particular Action may be placed on the same > Stack. Not bad. Considering that you can perform multiple Actions to add several Tokens to a Stack (if you couldn't, nobody would ever place a fifth Token on anything), this should be alright. > * Any Tokens surplus to the capacity of a Stack are destroyed. This second bullet-point is quite superfluous, since you can't add Tokens to a full Stack, and there's no way to get from a five-Token one to a more-than-six-Token one when you're dishing out individual Tokens. >Avoiding the "Double Helsinki - Blue Stack" hole, hopefully. True enough, this does give such an advantage over Proposal 853 (A Purple Shirt and All The Rest). Although I'd probably applaud anyone who managed such a manoeuvre. >Proposal 844 - Follow the Purple Line, Sir! [Multiple] Good good, although it's a pity the ten-LV limit is buried deep in the shadows of Section 1.8, now; such a crucial game aspect really needs to be mentioned a bit more prominently. >Proposal 845 - Ludomania [Multiple] Not really sure how good or bad this would be, since we've never tried the variant. I can't see why Holy Stations need "correcting", either way. >Proposal 846 - Vanilla and Stabilizers [Enactment] Interesting. Only valid if we really are getting more bad enactments passing than good, these days - I'm not entirely sure that we are, though. >Proposal 848 - Bear Necessities [Multiple] > >I think this was a mistake. I don't know; arguably it clarifies the situation a bit. Probably superfluous, though, really. >Proposal 855 - Taxman [Amendment] > >Eliminating the "tax loop-hole" where one Player can give another Kudos >before eir own is halved and the other receives it after eirs is halved. Very perspicacious of you, I must say. I suppose it'd be a critical issue if Kudos was at all important, but since it's just a method of recognising the efforts of particular Players, I've a feeling the current approach probably does more justice. True, two Players could bounce Kudos back and forth, up into the realms of infinity, but I can't imagine anyone would bother, or would want the horrified boredom it generated from other players. >Reproposal 856 - Gran Turismo [Multiple] To reiterate what I think was my initial reaction; excellent stuff on the Short Game, but the rest seems too disjointed and vague to be playable. >Reproposal 857 - The other Eye [Multiple] A bit weird; you can Move, Straddle and then Shunt someone at your previous location. Although it permits multiple-Shunts, which is a good thing, losing the "Shunt immediately after Moving" aspect is a shame, since this is a particularly intuitive implementation. Multiple-Shunts are probably too rare to include, really, and they'd be a bit too powerful (particularly in Ruttsborough) anyway. Note that section two will do nothing because it references the old, broken Shadow wording. >Reproposal 859 - No, it can't be Eaten [Multiple] "Required LV" is, as I'm sure I said, a bit vague, and the implementation doesn't seem to have any particularly useful interpretations anyway, unless I'm missing a big potential tactic. Hm. Good to see the Nomic side of things rolling again, anyway; an impressively flawless transition, Snow. (I got all the eGroups messages perfectly, so far as I can tell.) Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Aug 11 15:43:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3036 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 22:43:20 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 22:43:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 12823 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 22:43:20 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 22:43:20 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04971 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:41:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:46:11 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 843 - Spread'em [Amendment] > >In >Rule 1.4.19 - Token Tracking, > >replace > > * All Tokens paid for a particular Action must be placed on the same > Stack. Any Tokens surplus to the capacity of the Stack are > destroyed. > >with > > * No two Tokens paid for a particular Action may be placed on the same > Stack. > > * Any Tokens surplus to the capacity of a Stack are destroyed. This just takes us back to the problem of being able to Tithe for free, which is why this rule was established in the first place. I would much prefer just to have the stack rewards changed to something more interesting - six of one color is terribly dull. Even just alternating colors would be much better. >Proposal 846 - Vanilla and Stabilizers [Enactment] > >Create a new >Rule 0.5.* - The Stabilizer > There is an Entity called The Stabilizer. > The Stabilizer has one vote, which it will cast AGAINST any Proposal > to create a new Rule in the Vanilla ruleset (Volume 1). > The Stabilizer is not counted for the purpose of determining Quorum. > Um, why? I really don't see the necessity. If there's a proposal we don't want, we don't vote for it. All it does is automatically break any ties to the negative, and unless I'm mistaken, tied proposals don't pass anyway. >MN Speaker >-Big-up massive junglist Speaker in the house laying down some phat >Proposals....tripping man. LOL! --Riff "Press down on the medulla oblongata! Five bucks says he smells burnt toast!" --Sam & Max, Freelance Police From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Aug 11 15:45:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4563 invoked by uid 7770); 11 Aug 1999 22:45:39 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 22:45:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 29638 invoked from network); 11 Aug 1999 22:45:39 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 1999 22:45:39 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA05140 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:43:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:48:27 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game States Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Game Lounge To move > >16(Chateau d'Eau) Brook-Tayler RiffRaff >18(Vanilla) Cryer PaulWay >13(Finsbury Park) Garden PaulWay >11(The Long Game) Lyttleton RiffRaff >15(Ruttsborough '58) Rushton Ole Sigh. Regretfully, I'm going to have to resign from 11 and 16... Too much real-world activity for me to be able to properly concentrate on more than one game at a time, I'm afraid. Sorry for the hold-up. --Riff "Press down on the medulla oblongata! Five bucks says he smells burnt toast!" --Sam & Max, Freelance Police From Wed Aug 11 18:00:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8724 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:09 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 17460 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:09 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 2869 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.88) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:07 -0000 Message-ID: <014c01bee45d$eaa49a60$587a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:06:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Game States Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RiffRaff said > >Game Lounge To move > > > >16(Chateau d'Eau) Brook-Tayler RiffRaff > >18(Vanilla) Cryer PaulWay > >13(Finsbury Park) Garden PaulWay > >11(The Long Game) Lyttleton RiffRaff > >15(Ruttsborough '58) Rushton Ole > > > Sigh. > > Regretfully, I'm going to have to resign from 11 and 16... Too much > real-world activity for me to be able to properly concentrate on more than > one game at a time, I'm afraid. Sorry for the hold-up. Hardly a hold-up; Kevan moved in those games less than 36hr ago. This brings to my attention the orderings in the games. There are 2 games with ordering: PaulWay, Kevan, RiffRaff, Ole and another with: PaulWay, Kevan.. It strikes me that if Players tend to make moves in several games at the same time, then all the pressure is put on the next person in the chain at once. The current Ruleset says Player order should be random......... For new games it might be sensible to artificially make sure there is as little overlap of Player order with existing games as possible. Game 18 does this nicely, by using the reverse order of the above chain. Snow -Who isn't going to send out Game States next week. From Wed Aug 11 18:00:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8787 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:15 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 2264 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:15 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 2875 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.88) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:13 -0000 Message-ID: <014d01bee45d$ee351420$587a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:10:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RiffRaff said: > >MN Speaker > >-Big-up massive junglist Speaker in the house laying down some phat > >Proposals....tripping man. > > LOL! Too much Mark and Lard. Snow -I love Ann Widdecombe From Wed Aug 11 18:00:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8817 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:16 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 17500 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:16 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 2879 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 01:00:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.88) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 01:00:14 -0000 Message-ID: <014e01bee45d$eee614a0$587a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7orugj$rr4n@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:18:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan said: > >Proposal 848 - Bear Necessities [Multiple] > > > >I think this was a mistake. > > I don't know; arguably it clarifies the situation a bit. Probably > superfluous, > though, really. As I read it the method for awarding the Clever Bear? is contradictory. In the title it says "to the most Nominated player" whareas in the body it suggests that the Speaker should choose from the available nominations. > Good to see the Nomic side of things rolling again, anyway; an > impressively > flawless transition, Snow. (I got all the eGroups messages perfectly, so > far as I can tell.) Except that it took 7.5hr from me sending it to me receiving it (although this may be a problem at my end). The Points Chart is up now. It wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be (I have to admit I hadn't ever set eyes on the thing before yesterday). dunx.org is working again. However, the Voting Booth is being rather pooy at the moment, I will have another go when I upload this. Snow -A rapid crossbreed of silence. From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Thu Aug 12 11:40:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12417 invoked by uid 7770); 12 Aug 1999 18:40:46 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 18:40:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 17652 invoked from network); 12 Aug 1999 18:40:46 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 1999 18:40:46 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id LAA04035 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:40:42 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003765; Thu Aug 12 18:39:21 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id LAA27732 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:39:20 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 882567CB.00669D03 ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:40:48 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <882567CB.00669C86.00@s...> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:38:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh how I miss Mark and Lard of an afternoon... (PaulWay must not have a clue what we are on about...) I have to claim the dubius honour of actually getting through to them by email and getting Mark to ask Lard to tell a colleague of mine to "stop dreaming of Australia and do some Astronomy". Game 11 move to follow soon, I hope miKi "Snow" on 08/11/99 05:10:07 PM Please respond to l-nomic-d@egroups.com To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com cc: (bcc: Richard M Brockie) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals RiffRaff said: > >MN Speaker > >-Big-up massive junglist Speaker in the house laying down some phat > >Proposals....tripping man. > > LOL! Too much Mark and Lard. Snow -I love Ann Widdecombe ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/678 eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Thu Aug 12 17:25:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17297 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Aug 1999 00:25:12 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by ivault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 00:25:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 5570 invoked from network); 13 Aug 1999 00:25:12 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 00:25:12 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id RAA15974 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:25:08 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015922; Fri Aug 13 00:24:23 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id RAA29289 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:24:22 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 882567CC.000255DE ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:25:30 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <882567CC.000253D6.00@s...> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:23:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Weird behaviour of email archive... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying to look at the list archive for Game 11, but it looks really weird, there seems to be no logical ordering to the numbering of the messages, and the bottons to move through the messages don't really do what the purport to do. Am I missing something? miKi From Thu Aug 12 22:21:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17836 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Aug 1999 05:21:00 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 05:21:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 12688 invoked from network); 13 Aug 1999 05:20:59 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 05:20:59 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA10972; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:20:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma010799; Fri, 13 Aug 99 15:20:39 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:19:05 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:19:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Game States Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:10 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > Game Lounge To move > > 18(Vanilla) Cryer PaulWay > 13(Finsbury Park) Garden PaulWay Please don't time me out just yet; I'll try to get onto it sometime soon. Ta, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Dunx Fri Aug 13 00:56:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24153 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Aug 1999 07:56:40 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 07:56:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 10430 invoked from network); 13 Aug 1999 07:56:40 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 07:56:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 1238 invoked by uid 85); 13 Aug 1999 07:56:32 -0000 Received: from terra-n-six (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by terra-n-six with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 07:56:32 -0000 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 3:56:32 EDT Subject: MN: Re: Weird behaviour of email archive... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_934530992-676-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------=_934530992-676-1 Content-Type: text/plain mime-version: 1.0 content-type: text/plain reply-to: dunx@d... date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 3:56:32 EDT content-disposition: inline from: Dunx subject: Re: MN: Weird behaviour of email archive... to: l-nomic-d@egroups.com On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:23:47 -0700 Richard_M_Brockie@n... wrote: > I am trying to look at the list archive for Game 11, but it looks really > weird, there seems to be no logical ordering to the numbering of the > messages, and the bottons to move through the messages don't really do what > the purport to do. Am I missing something? The default ordering on eGroups is threaded. Unfortunately, its idea of threading doesn't necessarily match up with sanity (it's probably just a bit weak at dealing with hundreds of messages with the same subject line, truth be told). Try clicking on the Date heading - that should order the messages in a more useful sequence. -- Dunx - occasional visitor ------------=_934530992-676-1-- From kevan@d... Fri Aug 13 00:57:11 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 24649 invoked by uid 7770); 13 Aug 1999 07:57:09 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 07:57:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 10610 invoked from network); 13 Aug 1999 07:57:10 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 1999 07:57:10 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 1999 08:57:10 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 00:57:01 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7p0j4d$54vg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <882567CC.000253D6.00@s...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Weird behaviour of email archive... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am trying to look at the list archive for Game 11, but it looks really > weird, there seems to be no logical ordering to the numbering of the > messages, and the bottons to move through the messages don't really do what > the purport to do. Am I missing something? eGroups has gone a little odd lately; I thought they'd fixed it, but evidently they haven't. Someone should get around to mentioning it, probably - they were quick enough to fix the "messages never being marked as read" thing when it cropped up a few weeks ago. Your best bet for navigation is either to use the forward/back buttons on each message, or to just hack around with the URL to get the message number you desire. Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Sat Aug 14 15:17:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8245 invoked by uid 7770); 14 Aug 1999 22:17:51 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Aug 1999 22:17:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 29372 invoked from network); 14 Aug 1999 22:17:51 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Aug 1999 22:17:51 -0000 Received: from opus (p444-58.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.186]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA13606 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:17:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <049001bee6a2$d1a9a900$5bc98e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <00f701bee392$720f7aa0$607a38d4@snow> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:40:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Proposal 842 - Emptying the Cupboards [Amendment] Nice. : Proposal 844 - Follow the Purple Line, Sir! [Multiple] As Kevan said, it should have a more prominent place in the rules. : Proposal 845 - Ludomania [Multiple] : { : Changing the illegal numbering, correcting Holy Stations, and reducing the : number of Pieces. : } The problem with Holy Stations is: you can't target anybody at Holy Stations, and the Knuffing Action modifies exactly this absent targeting. : Proposal 846 - Vanilla and Stabilizers [Enactment] The purpose is to make the Vanilla rules more stable than the rest. An alternative could be stricter Quorum or majority. : Proposal 847 - Ambiguity Sminting [Multiple] Nice. : Proposal 849 - Found, Found, Found [Amendment] : "If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between : 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e instead rolls a twenty-sided : die and specifies a number between zero and eighty - the specified : number is added to the number rolled. A roll of four or less, : however, remains unmodified." When does e specify the number? : : Proposal 850 - Quantum Sleep [Amendment] I think this kills one of my waiting props, I think. If so, Snow, feel free to delete that prop. : : Proposal 851 - A Nation Turns Its Back [Amendment] :-) : Proposal 852 - Ghost-Train Scenery [Amendment] :-) : : Proposal 853 - A Purple Shirt and All The Rest [Amendment] Not bad. : Proposal 854 - Practical Reproposals [Amendment] : { : It is often impractical to contact the Proposer for the next Nomic Week. : } We could implement a 'repropose unless requested' policy. : Proposal 855 - Taxman [Amendment] That sounds like a nice loop-hole. It would be a pity losing. Maybe we can entice a newbie to jump into it, sometime? : : Reproposal 856 - Gran Turismo [Multiple] I'm not too happy about the inter-city travel, but I still like the concept. : Reproposal 857 - The other Eye [Multiple] As pointed out, point 2 is moot. : Reproposal 858 - Euston Walkabout [Amendment] Simple thing. : : Reproposal 859 - No, it can't be Eaten [Multiple] : When the Action [Goo on ] is played, the Station in : question becomes Gooey until a Player passes through the Station : during eir Move. This is the crux. You can bog down the entire countryside by applying generous amounts of Goo. : When [Goo on ] is played, and a Player is occupying the : said Station, the said Player becomes Gooey, and 'Goo' (a Small, : Indestructible Possession) is placed in eir Luggage Rack And you can target people without targetting them. Circumvents the complete protection offered by Holy Stations. Ole From Sun Aug 15 05:20:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5721 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Aug 1999 12:20:47 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 1999 12:20:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 8559 invoked from network); 15 Aug 1999 12:20:47 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 1999 12:20:47 -0000 Received: from opus (p411-032.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.217.32]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA03248 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:20:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <05f801bee718$9345a940$2ddb52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <882567CB.00669C86.00@s...> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:05:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit miKi wrote: : Oh how I miss Mark and Lard of an afternoon... (PaulWay must not have a : clue what we are on about...) I am quite perplexed, too. I assume it is something British. Ole From Sun Aug 15 18:10:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14068 invoked by uid 7770); 15 Aug 1999 23:44:30 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 1999 23:44:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 23632 invoked from network); 15 Aug 1999 23:44:30 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 1999 23:44:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 25031 invoked from network); 15 Aug 1999 23:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.183) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 15 Aug 1999 23:44:28 -0000 Message-ID: <00de01bee777$f9e03ee0$b77b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <882567CB.00669C86.00@s...> <05f801bee718$9345a940$2ddb52c3@opus> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:40:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Mark and Lard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > miKi wrote: > > : Oh how I miss Mark and Lard of an afternoon... (PaulWay must not have a > : clue what we are on about...) > > I am quite perplexed, too. I assume it is something British. Mark Radcliffe and The Boy Lard (Mark Riley) are Radio1 DJs. They specialise in pastiching "tin-pot local radio" by being as crap as possible. It used to work rather well when they were on "the graveyard shift", but IMO have started to stagnate lately. Incidentally where are you from? Oh, if I didn't mention it before the Voting Booth is setup for this week. Snow -Gail Porter naked. From Mon Aug 16 11:09:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25471 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Aug 1999 18:09:15 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 1999 18:09:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 9674 invoked from network); 16 Aug 1999 18:09:12 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 1999 18:09:12 -0000 Received: from opus (p446-10.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.129.138]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA10684 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:09:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00b301bee812$61262de0$8a812fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <882567CB.00669C86.00@s...> <05f801bee718$9345a940$2ddb52c3@opus> <00de01bee777$f9e03ee0$b77b38d4@snow> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:39:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Mark and Lard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow asked: : : Incidentally where are you from? : The .dk of my address implies Denmark, and that is as close to the truth as it gets. Ole From Mon Aug 16 12:17:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3715 invoked by uid 7770); 16 Aug 1999 19:17:42 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 1999 19:17:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 24476 invoked from network); 16 Aug 1999 19:17:39 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 1999 19:17:39 -0000 Received: from opus (p436-046.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.201.46]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29139 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:17:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <017501bee81b$efc552c0$8a812fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <199908130756.JAA08380@m...> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:16:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Weird behaviour of email archive... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: : The default ordering on : eGroups is threaded. It appears that they have changed their default to date-ordered. Ole From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Mon Aug 16 18:00:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29244 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Aug 1999 01:00:22 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 01:00:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 22783 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 01:00:22 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 01:00:22 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id SAA06663 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:00:14 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006544; Tue Aug 17 00:59:27 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id RAA29760 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:59:26 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 882567D0.00059282 ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:00:51 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <882567D0.00059130.00@s...> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:59:06 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Voting... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This voting booth lark is good, isn't it? miKi From Tue Aug 17 16:51:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21849 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:29 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 31226 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:28 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 4074 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 10538 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.36) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:26 -0000 Message-ID: <00dd01bee90b$478baa00$247738d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:43:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 16 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 16 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 842 Emptying the Cupboards 6 0 0 4 Passes 843 Spread'em 2 0 3 4 Fails 844 Follow the Purple Line, Sir! 5 0 0 4 Passes 845 Ludomania 4 1 0 4 Passes 846 Vanilla and Stabilizers 0 0 5 4 Fails 847 Ambiguity Sminting 5 1 0 4 Passes 848 Bear Necessities 4 1 1 4 Passes 849 Found, Found, Found 2 2 2 4 Fails 850 Quantum Sleep 5 1 0 4 Passes 851 A Nation Turns Its Back 4 2 0 4 Passes 852 Ghost-Train Scenery 5 1 0 4 Passes 853 A Purple Shirt and All The Rest 5 1 0 4 Passes 854 Practical Reproposals 5 1 0 4 Passes 855 Taxman 4 1 1 4 Passes 856 Gran Turismo 1 1 3 4 Fails 857 The other Eye 3 0 2 4 Passes 858 Euston Walkabout 4 0 1 4 Passes 859 No, it can't be Eaten 1 0 4 4 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 842 (Ole) - - - - FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR [a] 843 (Ole) - - - - AGA FOR - FOR AGA AGA 844 (Ole) - - - - FOR FOR - FOR FOR FOR 845 (Ole) - - - - PAS FOR - FOR FOR FOR 846 (Ole) - - - - AGA AGA - AGA AGA AGA 847 (Snow) - - - - FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR PAS 848 (Snow) - - - - FOR FOR AGA FOR FOR PAS 849 (Kevan) - - - - PAS PAS AGA FOR FOR AGA 850 (Kevan) - - - - PAS FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR 851 (Kevan) - - - - PAS PAS FOR FOR FOR FOR 852 (Kevan) - - - - PAS FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR 853 (Kevan) - - - - PAS FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR 854 (Snow) - - - - FOR FOR FOR FOR FOR PAS 855 (Snow) - - - - FOR FOR AGA FOR FOR PAS 856 (Ole) - - - - AGA AGA - AGA FOR PAS 857 (Ole) - - - - AGA AGA - FOR FOR FOR 858 (Ole) - - - - FOR AGA - FOR FOR FOR 859 (Ole) - - - - AGA AGA - AGA AGA FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CAMREC Cleanup Aw - - - - 848 - - - - - Mrs Trellis Award - - - - - - - - - 859 Clever Bear - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity Awar - - - - 855 - - - - - Ruttsborough Awar - - - - 844 - - - - 844 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week +11 +10 +4 +3 +16 +11 +9 +4 +4 +7 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial +11 +10 +4 +3 +16 +11 +9 +4 +4 +7 Halved +2 +1 +8 +5 +4 +2 +2 +3 FOR votes +0 +0 +21 +0 +26 +0 +0 +18 AGAINST votes +0 +0 -2 +0 -18 +0 +0 -2 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST vo +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 +3 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +19 +0 +10 +3 +3 +19 Final +11 +10 +2 +1 +27 +5 +14 +5 +5 +22 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) CAMREC Cleanup Award (+3) - none Mrs Trellis Award (+4) - none Clever Bear (+3) - none ICMS Clarity Award (+3) - none Ruttsborough Award (+1) - Ole (Follow the Purple Line, Sir!) [a] - Ole made several votes of "ABSTAIN" this week. Since "ABSTAIN" is not a vote recognised by the Ruleset these votes are invalid and have been ignored. Instead Ole was considered to have abstained from voting for these Proposals. MN Speaker -Professional breast massager. From Tue Aug 17 16:51:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21915 invoked by uid 7770); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:32 -0000 Received: from qh.egroups.com (HELO qh.findmail.com) (10.1.2.28) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 31246 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:31 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 11806 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:30 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 10540 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 23:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.36) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 23:51:28 -0000 Message-ID: <00de01bee90b$48b9c9c0$247738d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:49:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 17 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Seventeen ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 860 - Ordering the deck [Mulitple] In Rule 1.1.2 - A New Game replace the paragraph beginning: When a Game has at least three Players (including the Drone), with: When a Game has at least three Players (including the Drone), the Order of Play is determined by the Speaker and announced to the list. That Game then commences. The Speaker shall determine Order of Play by adding each Player to the Game such that the number of times a Player follows the same Player across all Games is minimised. Within the above contraint the Order of Play should be random. In Rule 1.1.8 - Joining In replace the sentence: When a new Player joins a Game already in progress, eir position in the Playing Order shall be determined by random selection. with: When a new Player joins a Game already in progress, the Speaker shall determine eir position in the Playing Order by adding the Player such that the number of times a Player follows the same Player across all Games is minimised. Other than this the position shall be determined randomly. { Attempting to reduce situations of the form: Rushton moves in 3 Games simultaniously, which means it is Garden's turn in those 3 Games (thus putting pressure on Garden). } --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 861 - Alaric Jespersen strikes back! [Enactment] I propose: Rule 1.16.x - Alaric Jespersen strikes back! If a Player believes that another Player has performed an Action which, though in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, is too powerful for its cost and duration, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may claim that the said Action is a Jespersen Manoeuvre. This is done by posting a message to the relevant Game Lounge, detailing the effects of the Manoeuvre. When a Jespersen Manoeuvre has been announced, the Speaker appoints a Judge, who (within 5 days) must decide if the statement " is a Jespersen Manoeuvre" is TRUE or FALSE. If the Judge finds the Statement TRUE, any adopted Proposal to remedy the Rule containing the said Action gains its Proposer 3 Kudos in addition to the usual gain. {Kind of a soft Buzz} --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 862 - Corner & Side [Muliple] This proposal consists of 3 new Rules and a new Section, as well as an Action Table entry. Rule 1.4.x - Personality Certain Possessions may possess the "Personal" attribute. Such Possessions contain the prefix "'s" (or "', if that is correct). In some cases, the postfix () can be used instead. Rule 1.4.x - Corner & Side A Player at Farringdon may perform the Action of "[Corner & Side]". This creates a Personal Token Box, a Small Possession, in eir Luggage Rack. All Tokens stacked at a Player's Home Station at the beginning of eir Turn become Personal Tokens, if eir Personal Token Box exists. Rule 1.4.x - Personal Tokens Personal Tokens are like other Tokens, except for their limited stackability and collectability. No Token can be stacked on top of a Personal Token, except the Personal Tokens of the same or the next Player, as defined in the GSD Table. All Personal Tokens held by a Player without the corresponding Personal Token Box, disintegrate at the end of the Player's Turn. All a resigning Player's Personal Tokens become ordinary Tokens. Personal Tokens have their own lines (one per Personal Token Box) in the GSD table. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - The Corner & Side Option \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Corner & Side Option In the Corner & Side Option, each Player begins the game with a Personal Token Box in addition to the usual initial Possessions and Tokens. Insert in Action Table: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Corner & Side] Post 1.4.x 8Br --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 863 - Polliwogs and Hedgehogs [Enactment] Rule 1.4.x - Polliwogs and Hedgehogs Any Player may perform the Action of "[Poll Tax]". This Action eliminates one Token of each colour from each Player. If a Player has no Tokens of a colour, no Tokens of that colour are taken from em. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Poll Tax] Post 1.4.x 2 Si --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -Sheep Maintenance engineer From Tue Aug 17 22:44:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16242 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Aug 1999 05:43:59 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 05:43:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 5391 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 05:43:58 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 05:43:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p433-238.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.199.238]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA12849 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:43:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201bee93c$a2d17c60$eec78e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <00dd01bee90b$478baa00$247738d4@snow> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:08:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- : dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- : Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 Drat. I had forgotten whose prop it was. And then it passed 6-0. Waste of 3 good points. : Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 +3 +0 Didn't I vote FOR or AGAINST all Proposals besides my own? Ole From Wed Aug 18 14:25:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30698 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 6969 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 14793 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:42 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 2246 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.5) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:41 -0000 Message-ID: <008901bee9c0$11f341e0$057a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <882567D0.00059130.00@s...> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:15:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Voting... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit miKi said: > This voting booth lark is good, isn't it? > Indeed, the inspired creation of Dunx. BTW did you get the VB's automatic confirming email OK? Snow -Rabbit illuminator to the Queen. From Wed Aug 18 14:25:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30715 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:45 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 6975 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:44 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 32493 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 2248 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.5) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Message-ID: <008a01bee9c0$12bcac60$057a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <00dd01bee90b$478baa00$247738d4@snow> <000201bee93c$a2d17c60$eec78e81@opus> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:20:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 16 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- > : dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul > Riff Snow > : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- > : Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 -3 +0 > +0 +0 > > Drat. I had forgotten whose prop it was. And then it passed 6-0. Waste of 3 > good points. 2 actually (you get 1 point for the FOR vote and 3 taken away because it was your own prop). > : Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 > +3 +0 > > Didn't I vote FOR or AGAINST all Proposals besides my own? Sorry, a bug in TheVoteMachine. I'll correct it for next week. This week +0 +0 +19 +0 +13 +3 +3 +19 Final +11 +10 +2 +1 +27 +5 +17 +5 +5 +22 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snow -Funeral Director (cattle division) From Wed Aug 18 14:48:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21865 invoked by uid 7770); 18 Aug 1999 21:48:03 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:48:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 14385 invoked from network); 18 Aug 1999 21:48:02 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 1999 21:48:02 -0000 Received: from opus (p404-068.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.213.196]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA13054 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:48:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <008101bee9c3$50368f40$c4d552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <00de01bee90b$48b9c9c0$247738d4@snow> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:45:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 17 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Proposal 860 - Ordering the deck [Mulitple] This seems to have a small conflict with Rule 1.1.7. Nothing serious, though. And the 'wave' problem does need fixing. : Proposal 861 - Alaric Jespersen strikes back! [Enactment] No penalties in this version of Jespersen - more a gentlemanly warning. : Proposal 862 - Corner & Side [Muliple] Illustrating the (almost) complete impracticability of non-standard Tokens. : Proposal 863 - Polliwogs and Hedgehogs [Enactment] A general taxation tool. Ole From Mon Aug 23 11:44:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31070 invoked by uid 7770); 23 Aug 1999 18:44:11 -0000 Received: from qg.egroups.com (HELO qg.findmail.com) (10.1.2.27) by vault.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Aug 1999 18:44:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 18595 invoked from network); 23 Aug 1999 18:44:10 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Aug 1999 18:44:10 -0000 Received: from opus (p456-53.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.181]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA28440 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:44:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <015901beed97$739bfd80$b5862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:37:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Fw: MN-R: Game 15 ended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What should we play now in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? : : Kevan : [Opening MC] [Humpty Sidestep] Mornington Crescent (NT via : : PD,CN) : : From Tue Aug 24 16:02:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29833 invoked from network); 24 Aug 1999 22:12:55 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 1999 22:12:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 8154 invoked from network); 24 Aug 1999 22:12:54 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 24 Aug 1999 22:12:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 31189 invoked from network); 24 Aug 1999 22:12:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.25) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 24 Aug 1999 22:12:53 -0000 Message-ID: <014801beee7d$a0211d40$197b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:42:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 17 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 17 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 860 Ordering the deck 2 1 0 4 Quorum 861 Alaric Jespersen strikes back! 0 1 2 4 Quorum 862 Corner & Side 0 2 1 4 Quorum 863 Polliwogs and Hedgehogs 0 1 2 4 Quorum ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 860 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 861 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - AGA 862 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - PAS 863 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - 861 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - 860 - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week +11 +10 +2 +1 +27 +5 +17 +5 +5 +22 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial +11 +10 +2 +1 +27 +5 +17 +5 +5 +22 Halved +1 +0 +13 +2 +8 +2 +2 +11 FOR votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +2 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 -5 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +5 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +12 +0 +4 +0 +0 +7 Final +11 +10 +1 +0 +25 +2 +12 +2 +2 +18 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - Kevan (Game 15 -Rushton) For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Making a note of the Clever Bear? shaped hole in TheVoteMachine. From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Aug 24 20:54:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1377 invoked from network); 25 Aug 1999 01:37:27 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 1999 01:37:27 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA09612 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:35:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:40:21 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 18 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >[: One Way: ] Post 1.x.2 20 2Bu,1Si (L0) I feel this should probably cost a little more... the reason being, when forced to travel a particular direction on the the Circle Line, you can still get somewhere - it just takes longer. Being able to make other Lines one-way, however, can irrevocably trap players at dead-ends. --Riff "Press down on the medulla oblongata! Five bucks says he smells burnt toast!" --Sam & Max, Freelance Police From Tue Aug 24 22:41:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24878 invoked from network); 25 Aug 1999 05:13:58 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 1999 05:13:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p419-001.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.221.1]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA05135 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:13:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <015301beeeb8$9960be80$53c28e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:53:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 18 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Riff wrote: : : >[: One Way: ] Post 1.x.2 20 2Bu,1Si (L0) : : I feel this should probably cost a little more... the reason being, when : forced to travel a particular direction on the the Circle Line, you can : still get somewhere - it just takes longer. Being able to make other Lines : one-way, however, can irrevocably trap players at dead-ends. : There's always Home and Wild, but it is more or less on purpose that I did not change any of the costs. Ole From kevan@d... Wed Aug 25 06:40:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 27653 invoked from network); 25 Aug 1999 13:43:21 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 1999 13:43:21 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Aug 1999 14:43:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:43:14 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7q0rti$5mgg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <015901beed97$739bfd80$b5862fc3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Fw: MN-R: Game 15 ended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What should we play now in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? Hunt the Ostrich, anyone? I'd suggest Czech variant, but probably haven't got enough spare brainpower or time for it at the moment... Kevan From Dunx Wed Aug 25 15:15:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6685 invoked from network); 25 Aug 1999 20:25:54 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 1999 20:25:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 26396 invoked by uid 85); 25 Aug 1999 20:25:34 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO default) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 25 Aug 1999 20:25:34 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990825211916.009667c0@p...> X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@d... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:20:53 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx In-Reply-To: <7q0rti$5mgg@eGroups.com> References: <015901beed97$739bfd80$b5862fc3@opus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MN: Re: Fw: MN-R: Game 15 ended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: >> What should we play now in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? > >Hunt the Ostrich, anyone? I'd suggest Czech variant, but probably >haven't got enough spare brainpower or time for it at the moment... I was hoping for Czech Variant myself, but obviously I don't really have a say at the moment. Lavendar podumes to one and all, -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig From Wed Aug 25 19:30:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12450 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 00:12:50 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 00:12:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 10478 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 00:12:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.250) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 00:12:48 -0000 Message-ID: <00ee01beef57$8a7b9260$fa7b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <014a01beee7d$a1786fe0$197b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:01:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 18 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 864 - Linear C [Multiple] I think there should a box in the GSD for line states if it's going to get complicated. > "[ Soaped]", where "" is the Line Code of the Actioning Why doesn't this have a colon like all the others? > Proposal 865 - Reordering the deck [Mulitple] More or less the same as last Week's, but taking into account Rule 1.1.7 and avoiding some duplication. > Proposal 866 - Ostrich-Stretching Time [Multiple] > { I admit I never caught any of the Hunt the Ostrich games on ISIHAC; I > trust that kitting up for Ostrich-hunting was more or less the point of > Kneecaps? } Was Hunt the Ostrich on ISIHAC? I didn't know that, I thought it was a York or Delphi concoction. > 3. I Think Not [Enactment, 4.3] > > The Ostrich may not Wear Garments, except for Hats. An Ostrich wouldn't be able to see if it wore a hat. > Proposal 867 - Stay on Target... [Multiple] > > 1. Summing Up [Amendment] > > Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.10.0 (Target Practice) from:- > > Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed > only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the > Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and > (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per > Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that > Action. That's not what the Rule says. Part 2 is incorrect. This means the Proposal changes the meaning of the Rule rather than just the wording. The orginal wording is: (2) no Player is Target of more than one Action, unless explicitly allowed for in the Rule defining that Action. I fear I have to claim responsiblity for this error. I think the Proposer downloaded the compressed ruleset. Unfortunatly when I compressed the ruleset I inadvertantly saved it as "ruleset.ZIP" whereas the link is to "ruleset.zip". Hence anyone downloading the compressed ruleset would get the old version. By the time you read this I should have corrected the problem. Sorry. I will treat the Proposal as though the correct wording had been inserted and the tag-line was "Change the second paragraph..." > Proposal 868 - Millennial Tension [Multiple] > > 1. Let's go to the Dome, Simone [Enactment] > > Upon > performing this Action, e gains two thousand Gold Tokens. I think long games should be excluded from this. > This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000. All computers all over the world are going to spontaneously explode on the first, so we needn't worry about this. Snow -"Scenes of terrible devastation." From Wed Aug 25 19:30:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29950 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 00:12:51 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 00:12:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 10481 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 00:12:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.250) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 00:12:49 -0000 Message-ID: <00ef01beef57$8b44fce0$fa7b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7q0rti$5mgg@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:07:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Fw: MN-R: Game 15 ended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan said: > > What should we play now in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? > > Hunt the Ostrich, anyone? I'd suggest Czech variant, but probably > haven't got enough spare brainpower or time for it at the moment... Hunt the Ostrich or Pachisi Crescent would get my vote. Incedentally in Hunt the Ostrich what's to stop everyone just passing the Ostrich Stick onto the next person in the Playing Order, thus preventing anyone from winning? Snow -"Put your hands in the air if you're from another planet" From Wed Aug 25 19:31:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31048 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 00:15:56 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 00:15:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 11016 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 00:15:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.250) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 00:15:55 -0000 Message-ID: <00f001beef57$f9e54ce0$fa7b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:14:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Compressed Ruleset and Game 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I said elsewhere there was a problem with the compressed Ruleset. I have now renamed the file, so the link points to the most recent version. Appologies again for this mistake. Also I have noticed that Game 7 is on the website, but not linked to. Is there any reason why I should not link to it? Snow -Aardvark redistibution consultant. From Wed Aug 25 22:30:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14363 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 05:33:31 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 05:33:31 -0000 Received: from opus (p455-106.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.106]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA15819 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:33:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <010f01beef84$7f24eb00$6a862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <00f001beef57$f9e54ce0$fa7b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 06:43:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Compressed Ruleset and Game 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : : Also I have noticed that Game 7 is on the website, but not linked to. Is there any reason why I : should not link to it? Had it been any other Nomic, I would blame it on the Illuminati. : : Snow : -Aardvark redistibution consultant. Don't you fiddle with my aardvarks. :-) Ole From Wed Aug 25 22:30:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19150 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 05:33:33 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 05:33:33 -0000 Received: from opus (p455-106.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.106]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA15861 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:33:32 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <011101beef84$808d0680$6a862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7q0rti$5mgg@eGroups.com> <00ef01beef57$8b44fce0$fa7b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:24:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Fw: MN-R: Game 15 ended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow answered: : > > What should we play now in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? : > : > Hunt the Ostrich, anyone? I'd suggest Czech variant, but probably : > haven't got enough spare brainpower or time for it at the moment... : : Hunt the Ostrich or Pachisi Crescent would get my vote. Mine, too. Ole From Wed Aug 25 22:30:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19156 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 05:33:34 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 05:33:34 -0000 Received: from opus (p455-106.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.106]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA15865 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:33:33 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <011201beef84$81134d80$6a862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <014a01beee7d$a1786fe0$197b38d4@snow> <00ee01beef57$8a7b9260$fa7b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:31:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 18 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > Proposal 864 - Linear C [Multiple] : : I think there should a box in the GSD for line states if it's going to get complicated. Not a bad idea. : : > "[ Soaped]", where "" is the Line Code of the Actioning : : Why doesn't this have a colon like all the others? I guess my colon key got stuck.... Feel free to put it in. : > 3. I Think Not [Enactment, 4.3] : > : > The Ostrich may not Wear Garments, except for Hats. : : An Ostrich wouldn't be able to see if it wore a hat. So it couldn't peck? : : > Proposal 868 - Millennial Tension [Multiple] : > : > 1. Let's go to the Dome, Simone [Enactment] : > : > Upon : > performing this Action, e gains two thousand Gold Tokens. : : I think long games should be excluded from this. : : > This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000. : : All computers all over the world are going to spontaneously explode on the first, so we needn't : worry about this. We still have time to put decomputerized play into the rules. Ole From Thu Aug 26 01:17:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9394 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 08:20:30 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 08:20:30 -0000 Received: from opus (p444-36.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.164]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA19436 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:20:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <001201beef9b$d34d9940$a4802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:48:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: High Hill? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Rule 1.17.6: * High Hill - A High Hill Station is one with both the strings "High" and "Hill" in its Name. Are there any High Hill Stations? Ole From Dunx Thu Aug 26 01:26:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13960 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 08:29:23 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 08:29:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 6689 invoked by uid 85); 26 Aug 1999 08:29:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 08:29:14 -0000 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 4:29:11 EDT Subject: MN: Re: High Hill? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_935656154-6659-0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------=_935656154-6659-0 Content-Type: text/plain mime-version: 1.0 reply-to: dunx@d... date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 4:29:11 EDT content-disposition: inline from: Dunx subject: Re: MN: High Hill? to: l-nomic-d@egroups.com On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:48:34 +0200 "Ole Andersen" wrote: > From Rule 1.17.6: > * High Hill - A High Hill Station is one with both the strings "High" > and > "Hill" in its Name. > > Are there any High Hill Stations? No, at least not on the Londond map. There's been at least one attempt to remove this clause. Dunx the Ever So Quiet ------------=_935656154-6659-0-- From kevan@d... Thu Aug 26 04:45:12 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 10001 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 11:47:57 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 11:47:57 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Aug 1999 12:47:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 04:47:53 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7q39h9$ji48@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00ee01beef57$8a7b9260$fa7b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 18 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed > > only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the > > Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and > > (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per > > Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that > > Action. > > That's not what the Rule says. Part 2 is incorrect. This means the Proposal > changes the meaning of the Rule rather than just the wording. The > orginal wording is: [...] Ah. I'd assumed the rule had been changed back, as I thought was the case (the not-more-than-once version being, although pleasing, less intuitive and effective than the first-Action one). I've no qualms with attempting to amend this back, and thank you for rewording the Proposal in light of things. > > Upon > > performing this Action, e gains two thousand Gold Tokens. > > I think long games should be excluded from this. Ah, good point. So long as we get such an Amendment in in the next four months, though, we should be alright... Kevan -- kevan@d... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sat Aug 28 11:41:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13569 invoked from network); 28 Aug 1999 18:44:33 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 1999 18:44:33 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA27913 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:42:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:47:29 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Game States Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:10 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] >wrote: >> Game Lounge To move >> >> 18(Vanilla) Cryer PaulWay Two weeks later... --Riff This announcement was brought to you by your local Department of Redundancy Department, which brought you this Department of Redundancy Department announcement, courtesy of your local Department of Redundancy Department. From Mon Aug 30 08:22:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5527 invoked from network); 30 Aug 1999 15:24:53 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Aug 1999 15:24:53 -0000 Received: from opus (p431-207.ppp.get2net.dk [129.142.198.207]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28025 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:24:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003d01bef2fb$c64b76a0$cfc68e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <7q6s2s$s38d@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:40:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: MN-B: Game 16 Game State Document Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : : Incidentally, where did the old "No Word For Fluffy" Rule go, : apropos of denying things which depend on factors absent from a : given Map? The current wordings only seem to cover Zones, and a : few specifics (Hills, Narging, Manoeuvreing, etc). : Check Rule 3.0.1. Is something missing? Ole From Mon Aug 30 13:40:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14638 invoked from network); 30 Aug 1999 20:43:05 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Aug 1999 20:43:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 19520 invoked from network); 30 Aug 1999 20:43:00 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 30 Aug 1999 20:43:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 17028 invoked from network); 30 Aug 1999 20:42:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.134) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Aug 1999 20:42:55 -0000 Message-ID: <001701bef328$065aadc0$867b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" References: <7q0rti$5mgg@eGroups.com> <00ef01beef57$8b44fce0$fa7b38d4@snow> <011101beef84$808d0680$6a862fc3@opus> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:32:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Fw: MN-R: Game 15 ended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > Snow answered: > : > > What should we play now in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? > : > > : > Hunt the Ostrich, anyone? I'd suggest Czech variant, but probably > : > haven't got enough spare brainpower or time for it at the moment... > : > : Hunt the Ostrich or Pachisi Crescent would get my vote. > > Mine, too. OK, Hunt the Ostrich is on everyone's list, so that'll be it. I still think the stick passing situation needs looking at, but we can sort that out later. MN Speaker -Sunburnt From Tue Aug 31 14:57:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15992 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 21:59:59 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 21:59:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 8614 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 21:59:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.247) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 21:59:57 -0000 Message-ID: <011101bef3fb$eeb47fa0$f77b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:35:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 18 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 18 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 864 Linear C 1 1 1 4 Quorum 865 Reordering the deck 2 1 0 4 Quorum 866 Ostrich-Stretching Time 2 1 0 4 Quorum 867 Stay on Target... 3 0 0 4 Quorum 868 Millennial Tension 2 1 0 4 Quorum 869 Fare's Fair 2 1 0 4 Quorum 870 Mend the Gap 2 1 0 4 Quorum ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 864 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - FOR 865 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 866 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 867 (Kevan) - - - - FOR - FOR - - FOR 868 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 869 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 870 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - 864 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - 865 - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - 868 - - 868 Clever Bear? - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week +11 +10 +1 +0 +22 +2 +12 +2 +2 +18 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial +11 +10 +1 +0 +22 +2 +12 +2 +2 +18 Halved +0 +0 +11 +1 +6 +1 +1 +9 FOR votes +0 +0 +11 +0 +1 +0 +0 +2 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 -1 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +5 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +4 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +21 +0 +9 +0 +0 +14 Final +11 +10 +0 +0 +32 +1 +15 +1 +1 +23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - Kevan (Millennial Tension) Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Penguin Impersonator From Tue Aug 31 14:57:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4831 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 22:00:02 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 22:00:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 8625 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 22:00:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.247) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 22:00:00 -0000 Message-ID: <011201bef3fb$f0043120$f77b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:37:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 19 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Nineteen ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 871 - Peak-A-Boo [Amendment] In Rule 1.13.6 - Line Segments with Restricted Opening, change: Peak Hours shall be described as Mon to Sat 0800 to 2000 inclusive. to: Peak Hours shall be described as Mon to Fri 0700 to 1000 inclusive and 1500 to 1800 inclusive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 872 - Jespersen, Alaric Jespersen... [Enactment] I propose: Rule 1.16.x - Jespersen, Alaric Jespersen... If a Player believes that another Player has performed an Action which, though in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, is too powerful for its cost and duration, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may claim that the said Action is a Jespersen Manoeuvre. This is done by posting a message to the relevant Game Lounge, detailing the effects of the Manoeuvre. When a Jespersen Manoeuvre has been announced, the Speaker appoints a Judge, who (within 5 days) must decide if the statement " is a Jespersen Manoeuvre" is TRUE or FALSE. If the Judge finds the Statement TRUE, any adopted Proposal to remedy the Rule containing the said Action gains its Proposer 10 Kudos in addition to the usual gain. This bonus can only be earned once for each Jespersen Manoeuvre. {Since the Jespersened Action _is_ within the Rules, it would not be entirely fair to stop it.} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 873 - A Token Effort [Muliple] This proposal consists of 3 new Rules and a new Section, as well as an Action Table entry. Rule 1.4.x - Personality Certain Possessions may possess the "Personal" attribute. Such Possessions contain the prefix "'s" (or "', if that is correct). In some cases, the postfix () can be used instead. Rule 1.4.x - Corner & Side A Player at Farringdon may perform the Action of "[Corner & Side]". This creates a Personal Token Box, a Small Possession, in eir Luggage Rack. All Tokens stacked at a Player's Home Station at the beginning of eir Turn become Personal Tokens, if eir Personal Token Box exists. Rule 1.4.x - Personal Tokens Personal Tokens are like other Tokens, except for their limited stackability and collectability. No Token can be stacked on top of a Personal Token, except other Personal Tokens. All Personal Tokens held by a Player without the corresponding Personal Token Box, disintegrate at the end of the Player's Turn. All a resigning Player's Personal Tokens become ordinary Tokens. Personal Tokens have their own lines (one per Personal Token Box) in the GSD table. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - The Corner & Side Option \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Corner & Side Option In the Corner & Side Option, each Player begins the game with a Personal Token Box in addition to the usual initial Possessions and Tokens. Insert in Action Table: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Corner & Side] Post 1.4.x 8Br ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 874 - Death and Taxes [Enactment] Rule 1.4.x - Death and Taxes Any Player may perform the Action of "[Poll Tax]". This Action eliminates one Token of each colour from each Player. If a Player has no Tokens of a colour, no Tokens of that colour are taken from em. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Poll Tax] Post 1.4.x 2 Go { A cost of one Token would essentially be a cost of none, since that one Token would be eliminated anyway. } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 875 - Like Wasps, Bees and Such [Enactment] I propose this: Rule 1.10.x - Like Wasps, Bees and Such A Player may perform the post-Move Action of "[Mimicking ]", provided that "" is another Player (known as the Mimickee) with the same LV and location as the Actioning Player (known as the Mimicker). For one Round, each time the Mimickee gains a Token, the Mimicker gains an identical Token. No Player can be the Mimickee of two Mimickers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Mimicking ] # Post 1.10.x -3 Re ============================================================================== The following have been reproposed from Week 18. ============================================================================== Reproposal 876 - Rereordering the deck [Mulitple] Create a new Rule 1.1.x - Order of Play When one or more Players join a game the Speaker shall determine the Order of Play by adding each Player to the Game such that the number of times a Player follows the same Player across all Games is minimised. Within the above contraint the Order of Play should be random. This Rule takes precedence over Rule 1.1.7. In Rule 1.1.2 - A New Game replace the paragraph: When a Game has at least three Players (including the Drone), the Order of Play is determined at random by the Speaker and announced to the list. That Game then commences. with: When a Game has at least three Players (including the Drone), the Order of Play is determined by the Speaker according to Rule 1.1.x and announced to the list. That Game then commences. In Rule 1.1.8 - Joining In replace the sentence: When a new Player joins a Game already in progress, eir position in the Playing Order shall be determined by random selection. with the paragraph: When a new Player joins a Game already in progress, the Speaker shall determine er position in the Playing Order according to Rule 1.1.x. { Attempting to reduce situations of the form: Rushton moves in 3 Games simultaniously which means it is Garden's turn in those 3 Games (thus putting pressure on Garden). } MN Speaker -Lava lamp connoisseur From Tue Aug 31 14:57:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16026 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 22:00:07 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 22:00:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 8677 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 22:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.247) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 22:00:06 -0000 Message-ID: <011701bef3fb$f37c40e0$f77b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:29:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Quorum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears that people haven't had the time to vote lately. I would suggest extending this week to double length, but since I'm going away the week after it might end up 3 weeks long (too long?). I could change it to two odd length weeks (now until 10th and 10th until 21st), but that might just cause confusion. Besides this might not help. Unless anyone can suggest something better I will just leave things as they are. MN Speaker -"Scream if you want to go faster" (or just vote). From Wed Sep 1 12:50:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30852 invoked from network); 1 Sep 1999 19:52:49 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 1999 19:52:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 21477 invoked from network); 1 Sep 1999 19:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.175) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 1 Sep 1999 19:52:46 -0000 Message-ID: <009701bef4b3$562f0d00$af7b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" References: <011201bef3fb$f0043120$f77b38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:24:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 19 Reproposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following have been reproposed from Week 18 for voting in Week 19. ======================================================================== Reproposal 877 - Linear C [Multiple] This Proposal is in 12 parts, one of which is an Action Table entry. 1. Create a Section 1.x: /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 1.x - Line States \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ 2. Create a new Rule 1.x.0, with this wording: Rule 1.x.0 - Line States Each line has a number of possible States. If a Line is in no other State, it is in its Normal State. A Player may put a Line in a given State by performing the Action "[: ]". Unless otherwise noted, eir Piece must be situated at a Station which is on the said Line. All Lines and Line Segments have an initial Speed Limit of 10. 3. Create a new Rule 1.x.1, with this wording: Rule 1.x.1 - Back To Normal A Player may put a Line in its Normal State by performing the post-Move Action "[: Normal]". This Action does not change the Line's Speed Limit. 4. Create a new Rule 1.x.2, with this wording: Rule 1.x.2 - And Where Might YOU Be Going? A Player may perform the post-Move Action "[: One Way: ]" to put the mentioned Line in a One Way State, with the mentioned direction as the prescribed direction. While a Line is in a One Way State, a Move which involves traversing any Line Segment of the said Line (or a Line Segment which touches the said Line) in the opposite direction of the prescribed direction shall be considered Invalid. For the purpose of this Rule, the following directions (and their opposites) are recognized: Bakerloo N-S: Harrow & Wealdstone to Elephant & Castle Central E-W: Epping and Woodford to Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip Circle Clockwise (opposite direction named Anti-Clockwise) District E-W: Upminster and Edgware Road to Wimbledon, Richmond, Ealing Broadway and Kensington Olympia East London N-S: Shoreditch to New Cross Gate and New Cross Hamm & City E-W: Barking to Hammersmith Jubilee N-S: Stanmore to Charing Cross and Stratford Metropolitan E-W: Aldgate to Uxbridge, Amersham, Chesham and Watford Northern N-S: High Barnet, Mill Hill East and Edgware to Morden Piccadilly E-W: Cockfosters to Uxbridge and Heathrow 123 (Heathrow 4 if W-E) Victoria N-S: Walthamstow Central to Brixton Water & City N-S: Bank to Waterloo DLR E-W: Beckton and Island Gardens to Stratford, Bank and Tower Gateway For two Line Segments to touch, every Station on one Line Segment must also lie on the other, and vice versa. 5. Create a new Rule 1.x.3, with this wording: Rule 1.x.3 - Opposites Attract, They Say A Player may perform the post-Move Action "[:Electrified]" to put the mentioned Line in an Electrified State. While a Line is in an Electrified State, all Stations on the said Line are considered Blocked if the Moving Player is carrying any Metallic Tokens at the start of eir Movement Phase. 6. Reword Rule 1.8.15, and move it to the new Section 1.x as Rule 1.x.4: Rule 1.x.4 - Not So Fast There! A Player may perform the pre-Move Action "[: Speed Limit: ]" to put such a Limit in effect. If a Line has a Speed Limit, no Player with a LV of more than may Move through any part of the said Line, unless eir Charge is greater than +100% or less than -100%, in which cases eir LV may have a value of up to twice the Limit. The cost of performing this Action is an amount of Blue Tokens equal to the difference between the previous Speed Limit and the new Speed Limit. 7. Reword Rule 1.9.4, and move it to the new Section 1.x as Rule 1.x.5: Rule 1.x.5 - Power Failure! During eir Turn, a Player may perform the post-Move action "[:Power Failure!]", where "" is the Line Code of the Actioning Player's most recent Move. When this is performed, the specified Line suffers a Power Failure for one Round. If a Line has had a Power Failure:- * Any Piece Moves which start or end at a Station on that Line, or which pass through a Station on that Line, are deemed to be Invalid, with the exception of "Walking" Actions. * No Player situated at a Station on that Line may perform a Straddle. 8. Reword Rule 1.9.7, and move it to the new Section 1.x as Rule 1.x.6: Rule 1.x.6 - Soap on the Tracks. During eir Turn, any Player may perform the post-Move action "[ Soaped]", where "" is the Line Code of the Actioning Player's most recent Move. When this is performed, the specified Line is Soaped for one Round. If a Line is Soaped:- * Any Shunting on the Line causes the Shunting Player to skid along with the Shunted Player, both ending in the same place. 9.In Rule 1.1.2 - A New Game, change * The Circle Line is in its Normal State. to * All Lines are in their Normal State. 10. In Rule 1.4.33 - Zzzzzzzzzzap!, change If the Circle Line is in an Electrified State, all Electric Possessions are Off. to If a Line is in an Electrified State, all Electric Possessions carried by Players whose Pieces are on the said Line, are Off. 11. Repeal Rule 1.8.5. 12. Replace: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Circle Line: Normal] Post 1.8.5 20 2Bu [Circle Line: (Anti)Clockwise] Post 1.8.5 20 2Bu,1Si [Circle Line: Electrified] Post 1.8.5 20 2Re,2Bu,1Si [Power Failure! ] Post 1.9.4 20 3Re (L0) [Power Restored ] Post 1.9.4 (L0) [Soap on ()] Pre 1.9.7 2Bu (L0) [Speed Limit on : ] Pre 1.8.15 none varies with: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [: Normal] Post 1.x.1 20 2Bu (L0) [: One Way: ] Post 1.x.2 20 2Bu,1Si (L0) [: Electrified] Post 1.x.3 20 2Re,2Bu,1Si (L0) [: Power Failure!] Post 1.x.5 20 3Re (L0) [ Soaped] Pre 1.x.6 2Bu (L0) [: Speed Limit: ] Pre 1.x.4 none varies (L0) { Power Restored is not necessary, as Power Failure! is a one round thing. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 878 - Ostrich-Stretching Time [Multiple] { A bit of tweaking to the Ostrich rules, since they're a shade too flawed to be playable at the moment, and it'd be nice to try a game of it at some point (maybe in the recently-vacated Rushton Lounge?). } 1. Stunt the Ostrich [Amendment] In Rule 4.3.2 (Ostrich Actions), reword the last paragraph from:- If the Ostrich ever shares a Station and Line with another Player, the Ostrich may play the Action of "[Pecking ]". The Player is immediately moved to a Wild Station in another Quadrant, eir LV is reduced to zero, and the Player holding the Ostrich Stick may take one Token or Possession from the Pecked Player. Only the Ostrich may Peck, and no Rule preventing aggressive Actions or expenditure of Tokens (red or otherwise)may prevent a Peck. to:- If the Ostrich shares a Station and Line with another Player, it may perform the Action of "[Pecking ]", where Player is that Player. The Pecked Player loses a single Edible Possession (if e has any) of the Ostrich Stick holder's choice, has eir LV halved (rounding up), and may not perform the Action "[Pouncing Ostrich]" during eir next Turn. { Rendering it a bit more playable; the current wording will get confused if the Game lacks the necessary Wild Station, and the idea of a Pecked Player losing a Possession to the Ostrich Stick Holder seems rather unfair and bizarre. } Also replace the "x.x.x" references, in that Rule, with "4.3.2", and halve the cost of Pecking to one Red Token. 2. Suited and Booted [Enactment, 4.3] A "Kneecaps" Possession exists, purchaseable for four Bronze Tokens from any Station which sells Emporia items (see Rule 1.4.18). Kneecaps are Garments. A Player wearing Kneecaps may not be Pecked by the Ostrich. { I admit I never caught any of the Hunt the Ostrich games on ISIHAC; I trust that kitting up for Ostrich-hunting was more or less the point of Kneecaps? } 3. I Think Not [Enactment, 4.3] The Ostrich may not Wear Garments, except for Hats. { Well. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 879 - Stay on Target... [Multiple] 1. Summing Up [Amendment] Reword the second paragraph of Rule 1.10.0 (Target Practice) from:- Any Action which targets another Player in this manner may be performed only (1) if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Target Player at the end of the Actioning Player's Move, and (2) as the first Post-Move Action (thus, only one may be performed per Turn), unless explicitly specified otherwise in the Rule defining that Action. to:- Each of these Actions may only be performed if the Actioning Player shares a Station and Line with the Targetted Player, and if it is performed as the first Post-Move Action of a Turn (unless otherwise specified). 2. Always Try To Do Things In Chronological Order [Amendment] To the end of Rule 1.10.2 (Line 'Em Up, Knock 'Em Down), add "This Action may only be performed as the *second* Post-Move Action of a Turn." 3. Clampdown [Multiple] Move all the Clamp Rules from Section 1.10 to Section 1.4 (Tokens and Possessions). { It feels more intuitive to be able to Clamp at whim, and as things stand the Clamp-removal Actions are rather out-of-place. It seems foolish to move them elsewhere by themselves, and personally I always look in the Possessions section for Clamps anyway. Heavy multi-clamping is a bit of an issue, but - as I've demonstrated in the past - detonating a Suspect Package beneath yourself is a cheap way to get rid of them all and to inconvenience the Clamper (more so in that he's just spent a load of Tokens Clamping you). } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 880 - Millennial Tension [Multiple] 1. Let's go to the Dome, Simone [Enactment] A Player may perform the Action "[Visiting Millennium Dome]" for free, if e is situated at North Greenwich and if the date in real life is either the 31st of December 1999 or the 1st of January 2000. Upon performing this Action, e gains two thousand Gold Tokens. This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000. { Should be entertaining. It was going to be "Upon performing this Action, e Wins the Game.", but the idea of non-MC victories in what may well be proper-MC games seems wrong. Two thousand Golds should probably help a bit, anyway, I expect... } 2. Exorcism [Amendment] In Rule 1.11.6 (If Your Mansion House Needs Haunting), remove "The Millennium Dome" from the list of Ghost Stations. { North Greenwich is actually the Station to use to get there, according to the London Transport site... } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 881 - Fare's Fair [Amendment] Reduce the cost of the "[Visiting ]" Action to four Bronze Tokens. { Six is a bit steep, particularly when it's so easy for other Players to delay the train. The rarity of this Action's usage suggests that something needs changing, and I'm hesitant to repeal it entirely. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 882 - Mend the Gap [Amendment] Reword Rule 1.8.7 (Gapminding) to:- A Player may perform the Action "[Mind the Gap]" or the Action "[Ignore the Gap]", to put the Game in and out of a "Gapminding" State, respectively. While such a State is in effect, the "[Line Change]" Action may not be performed. This State is indicated in Disruptions by the string "Gapminding" { The current wording blathers on about the sequence of Mind and Ignore Actions, which is rather obsolete now that we've got the Disruptions box. Rewording the effect of the thing to "no Line Changing" is probably a bit simpler, too, unless I've overlooked something horrible. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -A single handed attempt to ruin a perfectly good planet. From Wed Sep 1 12:50:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23562 invoked from network); 1 Sep 1999 19:52:57 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 1999 19:52:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 21525 invoked from network); 1 Sep 1999 19:52:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.175) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 1 Sep 1999 19:52:55 -0000 Message-ID: <009a01bef4b3$5bfa3480$af7b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <011201bef3fb$f0043120$f77b38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:26:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 19 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 871 - Peak-A-Boo [Amendment] > Peak Hours shall be described as Mon to Fri 0700 to 1000 inclusive and > 1500 to 1800 inclusive. Why? The current times fit LU's peak hours services better than these. > Proposal 872 - Jespersen, Alaric Jespersen... [Enactment] > any adopted Proposal to remedy the Rule containing the said Action > gains its Proposer 10 Kudos in addition to the usual gain. This bonus > can only be earned once for each Jespersen Manoeuvre. If an Action needs changing then just make a Proposal, if it's a good one you'll get lots of Kudos anyway. If more Kudos is required increase the CAMREC Award. > {Since the Jespersened Action _is_ within the Rules, it would not be > entirely fair to stop it.} If it's worth making a fuss about then surely it should be worth stopping. I can't see the point of this unless it's actually going to stop the Action. > Proposal 873 - A Token Effort [Muliple] Still don't understand what this is for. > Proposal 874 - Death and Taxes [Enactment] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Poll Tax] Post 1.4.x 2 Go A much more suitable cost. > { > A cost of one Token would essentially be a cost of none, since that one > Token would be eliminated anyway. > } Except that you need 2 golds rather than 1 (not that I disapprove). Snow -Androgynous person watcher. From Tue Sep 7 12:51:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16844 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 19:54:06 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 19:54:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 806 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 19:54:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.16) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 19:54:03 -0000 Message-ID: <00e201bef96a$79226760$107b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:57:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 883 - The Short Game [Enactment] /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - The Short Game \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Short Game In the Short Game, the cost for the [Opening MC] action is 1 (one) Gold Token. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 884 - Ostracisation [Multiple] 1. What's Brown and Sticky? [Amendment] In Rule 4.3.2 (Ostrich Actions), replace:- If a Player is carrying the Ostrich Stick, e may perform the Action "[Giving Stick to ]", where "Player" is any Active Player other than the Ostrich - the Stick is transferred to that Player's inventory. with:- If a Player has been carrying the Ostrich Stick since eir previous Turn, e may perform the Action "[Giving Stick to ]", where "Player" is any Active Player other than the Ostrich - the Stick is transferred to that Player's inventory. { Requiring the Stick to remain in someone's Possession for at least one Round, which should solve the problem of "giving the Stick to whoever's most likely to win". } 2. Trust No-One [Amendment] In Rule 4.3.3 (Lynch the Ostrich), replace "Players may only give the Ostrich Stick to Players on an opposing Team" with "a Player may not Pounce the Ostrich if a Team-mate of eirs carries the Ostrich Stick". { To avoid the rather obvious situation of Puce Player A getting the Stick and leading the Ostrich to Puce Player B. Tsk. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -Inventor of the home castration kit. From Tue Sep 7 12:51:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16861 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 19:54:10 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 19:54:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 808 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 19:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.16) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 19:54:04 -0000 Message-ID: <00e301bef96a$79e2aa20$107b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:58:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 19 Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 19 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 871 Peak-A-Boo 0 1 3 4 Fails 872 Jespersen, Alaric Jespersen... 0 1 3 4 Fails 873 A Token Effort 0 1 3 4 Fails 874 Death and Taxes 2 1 1 4 Passes 875 Like Wasps, Bees and Such 0 2 2 4 Fails 876 Reordering the deck 3 1 0 4 Passes 877 Linear C 2 2 0 4 Passes 878 Ostrich-Stretching Time 3 1 0 4 Passes 879 Stay on Target... 3 1 0 4 Passes 880 Millennial Tension 2 1 1 4 Passes 881 Fare's Fair 3 1 0 4 Passes 882 Mend the Gap 3 1 0 4 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 871 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS AGA - AGA 872 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS AGA - AGA 873 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS AGA - AGA 874 (Ole) - - - - FOR - PAS AGA - FOR 875 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS AGA - PAS 876 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR FOR - PAS 877 (Ole) - - - - PAS - PAS FOR - FOR 878 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 879 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 880 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR AGA - FOR 881 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 882 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - 877 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - 874 Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - 880 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 32 1 15 1 1 23 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 32 1 15 1 1 23 Halved 0 0 16 0 7 0 0 11 FOR votes +0 +0 +14 +0 +4 +0 +0 +3 AGAINST votes +0 +0 -1 +0 -12 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +0 +2 +2 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +15 +0 +1 +4 +0 +8 Final 11 10 0 0 31 0 8 4 0 19 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Carrot tamer From kevan@d... Wed Sep 8 05:34:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18148 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 12:37:49 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 12:37:49 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 1999 13:37:48 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 05:37:48 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7r5las$e2t0@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00e201bef96a$79226760$107b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Little to comment, really. > Rule 2.x.1 - The Short Game > > In the Short Game, the cost for the [Opening MC] action is 1 (one) > Gold Token. Bravo; this should be entertaining. Aside from keeping an eye on potential Electroplaters, I can't see it being too ridiculous. Dare I ask why the rule says "1 (one)" instead of just "1" or "one", incidentally? Guard against misprints or transcribing errors seems a shade redundant in this media... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Wed Sep 8 08:59:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17312 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 16:01:54 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 16:01:54 -0000 Received: from opus (p459-72.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.136.72]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA26401 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:01:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <017001befa13$6e8846e0$0ecc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7r5las$e2t0@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:36:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : Dare I ask why the rule says "1 (one)" instead of just "1" or "one", : incidentally? Guard against misprints or transcribing errors seems a : shade redundant in this media... I'd rather be redundant than wonder what that ell is doing there. Ole From kevan@d... Wed Sep 8 09:08:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23024 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 16:10:57 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 16:10:57 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 1999 17:10:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:10:49 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7r61q9$e9pu@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <017001befa13$6e8846e0$0ecc8e81@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : Dare I ask why the rule says "1 (one)" instead of just "1" or "one", > : incidentally? Guard against misprints or transcribing errors seems a > : shade redundant in this media... > > I'd rather be redundant than wonder what that ell is doing there. Something that plagued the mailing list in its early days; I had rather a lot of people asking me why they couldn't seem to sign up to "1-nomic@f...". I think we addressed it in the FAQ, in the end. Rather a foolish quirk of Foobar mailing lists, and a slight pity that we carried it over to eGroups, really. Tish. Can't we just say "one Gold Token", though? Kevan From Wed Sep 8 10:29:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18263 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 17:32:03 -0000 Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk (130.227.3.2) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 17:32:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p463-25.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.138.25]) by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07428 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:32:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <020d01befa20$0724c3e0$0ecc8e81@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <7r61q9$e9pu@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:29:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : : Something that plagued the mailing list in its early days; I had rather : a lot of people asking me why they couldn't seem to sign up to : "1-nomic@f...". I think we addressed it in the FAQ, in the end. : Rather a foolish quirk of Foobar mailing lists, and a slight pity that : we carried it over to eGroups, really. Tish. Most mailing lists have either l- or -l in their name - as if the subscribers did not *know* it was a list. And then we get the 'why can't I sign on'-thing running. : : Can't we just say "one Gold Token", though? Sure. Ole From Wed Sep 8 15:02:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30516 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 22:05:46 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 22:05:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 969 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 22:05:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.251) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 22:05:43 -0000 Message-ID: <020701befa46$0493c380$fb8ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:07:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Going away. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Players, I will be going away for a while on Saturday. I will be taking my S5 and modem with me, but I don't think I will be able to complete the Speaker's duties for this Week. I could, no doubt, compile the results and send out the next Proposals, but there seems little point if I would be unable to update the Ruleset. So I will provisionally extend the Week until 21st Spetember (next Tuesday, but one). If anyone want's to deputy for that time then that's fine, but other than Week end stuff there's not much to do, so there shouldn't really be any problems. I will probably be online once or twice during that time if technology doesn't conspire against me again. MN Speaker -Inventer of the terracotta condom. From Wed Sep 8 15:03:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30620 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 22:05:59 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 22:05:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 996 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 22:05:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.251) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 22:05:57 -0000 Message-ID: <020a01befa46$0cb9a3e0$fb8ca6c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <00e201bef96a$79226760$107b38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:59:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Rule 2.x.1 - The Short Game > > In the Short Game, the cost for the [Opening MC] action is 1 (one) > Gold Token. Sounds good, I would also like to see a fast/quick game (I think Kevan suggested this some time ago) where there is a time limit after which a Turn becomes invalid (say 48hrs). > Proposal 884 - Ostracisation [Multiple] > > If a Player has been carrying the Ostrich Stick since eir previous Turn, > e may perform the Action "[Giving Stick to ]", where "Player" is > any Active Player other than the Ostrich - the Stick is transferred to > that Player's inventory. > > { Requiring the Stick to remain in someone's Possession for at least > one Round, which should solve the problem of "giving the Stick to > whoever's most likely to win". } I know it was me that suggested this problem, but I've since changed my mind. All one has to do it give the stick away then Pounce the Ostrich in the same Turn. There is also another problem. Playing Order can be more significant in HTO than other games. The Player who follows the Ostrich at the moment always has first call on the [Claiming Ostrich Stick] action (provided e has sufficient Tokens). Also if the Player has enough tokens he can give the stick to the Ostrich and immediatly claim it back again, so e has both control of the Ostrich and prevents anyone else from getting it (via the giving/claiming mechanisum anyway). The more I think about this, the more complicated it gets. The best solution I have thought of to date is: 1) The Drone Stick may only change Player once per round by the [Claiming Stick method]. 2) The Ostrich Stick may only change hands once per round by the [Claiming/Giving Ostrich Stick] methods (together). 3) Prevent the Ostrich from claiming the Ostrich Stick. Can anyone see any problems with this? > In Rule 4.3.3 (Lynch the Ostrich), replace "Players may only give the > Ostrich Stick to Players on an opposing Team" with "a Player may not > Pounce the Ostrich if a Team-mate of eirs carries the Ostrich Stick". > > { To avoid the rather obvious situation of Puce Player A getting the > Stick and leading the Ostrich to Puce Player B. Tsk. } Sounds sensible. Snow -Used condom salesman. From Thu Sep 9 14:35:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24057 invoked from network); 9 Sep 1999 21:38:13 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 1999 21:38:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 10088 invoked from network); 9 Sep 1999 21:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.86) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 9 Sep 1999 21:38:12 -0000 Message-ID: <00c001befb0b$58f955a0$568ca6c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <00e201bef96a$79226760$107b38d4@snow> <020a01befa46$0cb9a3e0$fb8ca6c3@snow> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:30:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 20 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: > All one has to do it > give the stick away then Pounce the Ostrich in the same Turn. Didn't read the Ruleset properly, this isn't right. Snow -Able to eat an apple. From Fri Sep 10 11:16:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.255); by a1; 10 Sep 1999 18:19:50 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13389 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1999 18:19:48 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Sep 1999 18:19:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 7514 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1999 18:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 10 Sep 1999 18:19:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 24280 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1999 18:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.3) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 10 Sep 1999 18:19:47 -0000 Message-ID: <00d301befbb8$c684d1a0$037738d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:14:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Inactive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I going inactive as of now. I'll be back in a week or so. If any problems crop up anyone who wants to sort it out is deputised to do so. Snow -Britain's largest exporter of aluminium penguins. From Sat Sep 18 13:16:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 18 Sep 1999 20:19:46 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26543 invoked from network); 18 Sep 1999 20:19:43 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Sep 1999 20:19:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 10593 invoked from network); 18 Sep 1999 20:19:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.4) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Sep 1999 20:19:40 -0000 Message-ID: <024c01bf0212$cd0fe0e0$047838d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" References: <199909160904.LAA15805@m...> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:29:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: (Fwd) I could not find Klondike on the map Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > My mail thingie has sent three messages to the dice server. > > This is the first reply. Since the dice server isn't a member of the mail list all emails from it go to the moderator (the Speaker) for approval and won't reach the list until I have approved them. This also applies to emails send from addresses other than the one subscribed with (which is why some of Ole's mails go missing). If egroups thinks the message is a duplicate of one already send (which can happen if a move is retaken with only minor modifications) then it will go for modification. I have rejected the messages from the dice server since they aren't needed and some of Ole's messages that were sent again from a different address, but normally I would approve any messages that should reach the list and haven't been resent from the correct address. It think Dunx (or Kevan) set up the game lounges with the above restriction, but not the discussion lounge. This seems sensible to me, but I will have a look to see if dice-server mails can be allowed through. Snow -Who sold his soul to the devil, but had to give a 25% discount for damaged goods. From Sat Sep 18 13:16:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 18 Sep 1999 20:19:56 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26605 invoked from network); 18 Sep 1999 20:19:54 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Sep 1999 20:19:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 10604 invoked from network); 18 Sep 1999 20:19:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.4) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Sep 1999 20:19:52 -0000 Message-ID: <024d01bf0212$d3ad9aa0$047838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:45:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Active Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I'm active again. This Nomic Week will finish at 1759 of Tues 21st September. Snow -"Hello, how can I help you?", "That will be £1.90 please", "Thankyou, goodbye". These are just some of the phrases London shop-keepers are incapable of saying. From Sun Sep 19 06:53:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 19 Sep 1999 13:56:57 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17389 invoked from network); 19 Sep 1999 13:56:54 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 1999 13:56:54 -0000 Received: from opus (p451-120.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.132.120]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA25978 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:56:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <007501bf02a6$c757a5e0$78842fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <199909160904.LAA15805@m...> <024c01bf0212$cd0fe0e0$047838d4@snow> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:48:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: (Fwd) I could not find Klondike on the map Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : Since the dice server isn't a member of the mail list all emails from it go to the moderator (the : Speaker) for approval and won't reach the list until I have approved them. This also applies to : emails send from addresses other than the one subscribed with (which is why some of Ole's mails go : missing). As for the dice server being on the list: you can add it to the list. Use the 'invite several people' button, add the dice server to the list _without_ asking its permission, and voila! This is the way to do it, because 1. the dice server won't confirm that it should be on the list, and 2. you only get the option of forced participiation if you use the 'singular invitation'. Alternatively, you can change the list set-up to accept entries from _everyone_, but that opens the door to all kinds of spam. As for my double addresses: 1508oa@f... is my school mail, but when I send things out, I appear as 1508oa@m... , which I hadn't realised at first. Ole From Sun Sep 19 14:10:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 19 Sep 1999 21:13:34 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2957 invoked from network); 19 Sep 1999 21:13:32 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 1999 21:13:32 -0000 Received: from opus (p461-120.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.137.120]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA18083 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:13:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <03ce01bf02e3$b9afc840$78842fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <199909160904.LAA15805@m...> <024c01bf0212$cd0fe0e0$047838d4@snow> <007501bf02a6$c757a5e0$78842fc3@opus> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:23:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: (Fwd) I could not find Klondike on the map Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: : This is the way to do it, because 1. the dice server won't confirm that it : should be on the list, and 2. you only get the option of forced : participiation if you use the 'singular invitation'. I was rather nonsensical in 2. - I should have said the opposite. Ole From Tue Sep 21 12:58:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:48 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1642 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 20:01:42 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 11663 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 20:01:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 21368 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 20:01:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.129) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:35 -0000 Message-ID: <00cf01bf046b$c5fbf9a0$816638d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:11:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 20 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 20 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 883 The Short Game 3 1 0 4 Passes 884 Ostracisation 3 1 0 4 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 883 (Ole) - - - - FOR - PAS FOR - FOR 884 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - 884 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - 884 884 - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 31 0 8 4 0 19 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 31 0 8 4 0 19 Halved 0 0 15 0 4 2 0 9 FOR votes +0 +0 +3 +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +2 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +5 +5 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +3 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +15 +0 +12 +9 +0 +12 Final 11 10 0 0 30 0 16 11 0 21 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - Kevan (Ostracisation) Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -If you blow really hard while holding your nose, your brains come out your ears. From Tue Sep 21 12:58:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:55 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1761 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 20:01:51 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 11666 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 20:01:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 21373 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 20:01:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.129) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 20:01:37 -0000 Message-ID: <00d001bf046b$c6bdc300$816638d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:20:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 21 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-One ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 885 - Number Six [Enactment] Prison Clamps are Indestructable Possessions. A Player carrying a Prison Clamp may not play a Move other than "Pass", and e may not be targetted by Actions. At the start of a Player's Turn, if that Player has been carrying a particular Prison Clamp for more than two Rounds, it is destroyed. If a Rule states that a Player be "Sent to the Tower", eir Piece is moved to Tower Hill and e gains a "Prison Clamp" Possession. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 886 - Zero Tolerance [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.53 (Lost & Found), replace "Accused of Theft #" with "Sent to the Tower", and remove the explanation of the Theft thing. { Just tidying up. I've submitted this separately since being Sent to the Tower is rather more harsh than the original "move to the Tower, lose a Bronze" that the Lost & Found Rule used. With the following Proposal, though, you'll only be arrested if you search for stuff outside of the Lost Property office, so that probably balances it. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 887 - Found Again [Amendment] Amend the fourth paragraph of Rule 1.7.53 (Lost & Found) from:- "If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e adds 5 to eir roll." with:- "If the performing Player is at Paddington and the time is between 0930 and 1400 on Mondays to Fridays, e instead specifies a number between zero and eighty in the comments of eir Turn, and rolls a twenty-sided die. The specified number is added to the number rolled. A roll of four or less, however, remains unmodified." { Reproposal of "Found, Found, Found" from a few Weeks ago, which failed due to careless wording (as to when the specified number should be specified). To reiterate the original argument, a +5 bonus does nothing more than replace "1-5 Nothing" with "1-5 First item in Lost & Found Box"; which is barely any change at all, considering how empty the Lost & Found Box tends to be. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 888 - Can You Hear Snoring? [Enactment, 0.3] Any Player may Inactivate another Player by announcing this fact in the Discussion Lounge, provided that the Inactivated Player has neither Voted nor played a Mornington Crescent move for more than three weeks. When a Player is Inactivated in this fashion, e becomes Inactive. { I'm not actually sure who's even Active at the moment, but this is a handy thing to have, I think. Written in an "if someone spots it" manner, to save friend Speaker from too much boring paperwork. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 889 - Hyde Makeover [Amendment] Add the sentence "The Hyde Mask may not be removed, only discarded." to the first paragraph of Rule 1.7.38 (Jekyll and Hyde Park). { The "remove before your Move, wear after" aspect, as an easy way to avoid the Holy Station thing, had eluded my attention. Tsk. Well done, RiffRaff. This seems the easiest solution, anyway. Incidentally, has anyone else started visualising the Hyde Mask as Darth Maul? Tch. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -Addicted to Tomb Raider II From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Sep 21 17:30:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 22 Sep 1999 00:33:06 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10770 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1999 00:33:04 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 1999 00:33:04 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10569 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:30:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:36:03 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 21 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 889 - Hyde Makeover [Amendment] > >Add the sentence "The Hyde Mask may not be removed, only discarded." to the >first paragraph of Rule 1.7.38 (Jekyll and Hyde Park). > >{ The "remove before your Move, wear after" aspect, as an easy way to avoid > the Holy Station thing, had eluded my attention. Tsk. Well done, RiffRaff. > This seems the easiest solution, anyway. Hum. I don't see the problem with being able to remove it to avoid the Holy Station thing - after all, it takes half your turn to do it, and due to the layout of Holy Stations, the right side of the board is completely walled off otherwise, apart from a very circuitous southerly route. Perhaps if you could move through Holy Stations while it's removed, but couldn't stop at Holy Stations in either case? That way, if you didn't have enough time left to put it back on after the move, someone could always shunt you and steal it...Perhaps it could even have the time required to wear/remove it upped to 20 minutes. Of course, I might be seen as a bit biased... ;) > Incidentally, has anyone else started visualising the Hyde Mask as Darth > Maul? Tch. } I keep thinking of the Bugs Bunny cartoon with Dr. Jekyll in it. He switches back and forth a lot - thus supporting my argument ;) That and the more gory portrayal of him/them in Alan Moore's "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen". --Riff From kevan@d... Wed Sep 22 02:32:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.259); by a1; 22 Sep 1999 09:35:24 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18175 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1999 09:35:22 -0000 Received: from ml.egroups.com (207.138.41.146) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 1999 09:35:22 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Sep 1999 10:35:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 02:35:19 -0700 From: kevan@d... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7sa7sn$o5jo@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 21 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [The Hyde Mask] > Hum. I don't see the problem with being able to remove it to avoid the > Holy Station thing - after all, it takes half your turn to do it, and due > to the layout of Holy Stations, the right side of the board is completely > walled off otherwise, apart from a very circuitous southerly route. It seems wrong that the "normal" way to circumvent a problem should be so clumsy-looking on the GSD, though. I'd rather see it addressed in a manner that befits what were presumably the original intentions of the Mask ("Become more powerful, but suffer in-theme movement restrictions"). > Perhaps if you could move through Holy Stations while it's removed, but > couldn't stop at Holy Stations in either case? That way, if you didn't > have enough time left to put it back on after the move, someone could > always shunt you and steal it... Perhaps it could even have the time > required to wear/remove it upped to 20 minutes. All reasonable alternative solutions, but I think a simple "you can't take it off" approach is probably a lot neater and easier. No idea, really. I'll see what the Voters do. > Of course, I might be seen as a bit biased... ;) As might I, being an opponent in the relevant game, although I try to be objective. This is where the impartial for-the-good-of-the-game Nomic side tends to creak a bit, I suppose. > That and > the more gory portrayal of him/them in Alan Moore's "The League of > Extraordinary Gentlemen". That's the second time I've heard such the League mentioned lately, and the second time I've been intrigued by the idea of it... Hmm. Must have a prod at some bookshops. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From kevan@s... Fri Sep 24 01:32:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 24 Sep 1999 08:35:09 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1843 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1999 08:35:08 -0000 Received: from ml.egroups.com (207.138.41.146) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 1999 08:35:08 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 1999 09:35:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 01:34:59 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7sfd3j$nu56@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Block Doubt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Er, Ole's just Blocked the Station I was occupying in Game 19; having checked the Ruleset, I find myself wondering just when and why we lost the "You can't Block an occupied Station" clause. Or if I imagined it all along... Puzzled, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://members.xoom.com From Fri Sep 24 12:41:21 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 24 Sep 1999 19:44:23 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3101 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1999 19:44:20 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 1999 19:44:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 24954 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1999 19:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 24 Sep 1999 19:44:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 7949 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1999 19:44:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.171) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 24 Sep 1999 19:44:15 -0000 Message-ID: <001401bf06c4$d2f213a0$ab7838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7sfd3j$nu56@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:39:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Block Doubt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Er, Ole's just Blocked the Station I was occupying in Game 19; having > checked the Ruleset, I find myself wondering just when and why we lost > the "You can't Block an occupied Station" clause. Or if I imagined it > all along... The earliest Ruleset I have is Year 3 Week 1 which shows no sign. You used to be allowed to move out of Blocked Stations until Proposal 794 (Stopping Block), which contained the following incorrect comment: { Being able to Move out of a Blocked Station but not a Closed one seems too absurd, especially in terms of synonymous Station Damage. Since you can't Block occupied Stations, this doesn't have much impact beyond making Suspect Packages more dangerous if you're caught right in the middle of them. } Snow -He cut a hole in the chainlink fence and the penguins started to swarm onto the airfield. From Tue Sep 28 15:14:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 28 Sep 1999 22:17:36 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14478 invoked from network); 28 Sep 1999 22:17:33 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 1999 22:17:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 21959 invoked from network); 28 Sep 1999 22:17:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.123) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 28 Sep 1999 22:17:31 -0000 Message-ID: <00a501bf09fe$e0048900$7b7b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:49:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 21 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 21 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 885 Number Six 4 1 0 4 Passes 886 Zero Tolerance 4 1 0 4 Passes 887 Found Again 4 1 0 4 Passes 888 Can You Hear Snoring? 3 1 1 4 Passes 889 Hyde Makeover 3 0 2 4 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 885 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR FOR FOR 886 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR FOR FOR 887 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR FOR FOR 888 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR AGA FOR 889 (Kevan) - - - - FOR - FOR AGA AGA FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - 885 - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - 888 889 - 889 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - 889 888 - 886 Mrs Trellis - - - - - - 886 886 - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 30 0 16 11 0 21 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 30 0 16 11 0 21 Halved 0 0 15 0 8 5 0 10 FOR votes +0 +0 +18 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +2 +2 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +2 +2 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +5 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +7 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +28 +0 +9 +4 +4 +12 Final 11 10 0 0 43 0 17 9 4 22 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - Kevan (Hyde Makeover) ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - Kevan (Zero Tolerance) Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Trevor boarded the plane and placed a Fruit Gum on each seat. From Tue Sep 28 15:14:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 28 Sep 1999 22:17:42 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14536 invoked from network); 28 Sep 1999 22:17:40 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 1999 22:17:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 21963 invoked from network); 28 Sep 1999 22:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.123) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 28 Sep 1999 22:17:32 -0000 Message-ID: <00a601bf09fe$e0c65260$7b7b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:49:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Two ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 890 - The Fast Game [Enactment] Create a new section /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - The Fast Game \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - The Fast Game In the Fast Game if a Player takes more than 36 hours (excluding weekends) to take a Turn then a Move of Timeout is automatically made and any other Move becomes invalid. It then becomes the Turn of the next Player in the Playing Order. { Probably best when mixed with other SRs (Ruttsbourgh?). } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 891 - Busy Buzzy Bee [Multiple] Reword Rule 1.16.1 - One Good Turn A Turn may be Legal, Questionable, Illegal or Mistimed. Turns are Legal by default; if the most-recently taken Turn is Legal play may continue as normal. If a Turn is not Legal, play may not continue until the Turn has been established as Legal or Illegal. All Turns following a non-Legal Turn are deemed Mistimed. If a Turn is Illegal it, and all Turns that follow it, are deemed never to have occurred and play continues from the most recent Legal Turn. { Mistimed Turns become Legal if the Buzzed Turn becomes Legal, so Buzzing is not an underhand way to retake a regretted Turn. } In Rule 1.16.2 - Buzzing replace the sentence If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. with If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game at the time the Turn was subbmitted, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. { Stops Turns being Buzzed that were valid at the time taken, but not after a Ruleset change. } Add to the end of Rule 1.16.2 - Buzzing If a Turn is currently being Buzzed then no further Buzzes can be made in that Game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 892 - Charge Matching [Amendment] Remove the phrase "if charge does not match" from the [Opening MC] Action in the Action table. { I don't know what this means, but I can't find any reference to it in the rest of the Ruleset so I'll assume it's a hang-on from some earlier Rule. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 893 - Y2K bug [Enactment] Rule 2.1.x - Y2K bug Rule 1.7.62 (Let's go to the Dome, Simone) does not apply to the Long Game. This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 894 - No Walkouts [Amendment] Rewrite Rule 1.8.6 - Loop the Loop A Game may be in one of several Loop states, each of which must have the following defining features:- * One or more Trap Stations. * A Sidestep Action to allow a Player to avoid being drawn into the Loop. * A Terminate Action to allow a Player to end the Loop. If a Player finishes er Turn at a Trap Station and is not at the same Station e started er Turn at then the Game enters the Loop associated with that Trap Station. The Game does not leave the Loop until the Terminate Action for that Loop is made. When a Game is in a Loop, a Move to any Station other than the Next Station in that Loop is an Invalid Move, and a Special Move to the next listed Trap Station for that Loop is permitted (if no more are listed, a Special Move to the first in the list is permitted). If a Player performs the Sidestep Action, e ignores the Loop for the remainder of eir Turn. { At the moment if a Player is Timed out at a non-Trap Station or (possibly) Walks away from a Trap Station the Loop ends. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 895 - Baker Street [Special Ruleset] { Perhaps this would make the Game a little less intimidating to potentially new Players; by playing with a highly cut-down set of Actions, the Game becomes a lot simpler, and this is probably quite a good way to get a taste for things. Even if we're not able to run a Baker Street Game continuously, I think the presence of one such Game in the archive should be enough to convince passers-by that the Game *is* quite simple, at heart. } 1. Elementary, My Dear Watson! [Enactment] The Baker Street Variant is a much-simplified version of the game, intended for Players who are new to the game (or who fancy a little relaxation). Although very similar to the Vanilla game in premise and style, it carries a few notable restrictions, most prominently the greatly reduced number of possible Actions. 2. Limited Actions [Enactment] The following Actions are the only ones which may be performed in a Baker Street Variant. (Note that "[Rent to ]" is the only Action to have an altered Token cost.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Applauding ] Neut 0.9.4 none [Blocking ] Post 1.9.1 1Re (S1) [Home] Pre 1.12.4 30 [Home: ] Neut 1.12.2 none [Line Change] Pre 1.5.11 none 1Bk [LV+X] Pre 1.6.1 [LV-X] Pre 1.6.1 [Opening MC] Neut 1.7.28 3Go if Charge does not match [Rent to ] Pre 1.12.3 4Any [Shunting to Post 1.10.1 1Re (S0,L0) ] # [Taking a Bow] Neut 0.9.4 none [Token Running] Neut x.x.x 1 Go ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Gaslamps [Enactment] In a Game of Baker Street, neither Charge nor Currents are used. 4. Modesty [Enactment] Players neither gain nor lose Points for partaking in a Baker Street Game. 5. Token Running [Enactment] A Player may perform the Action "[Token Running]" if eir Piece is situated at a Terminus Station outside of Zone 1, and if e has not performed the "[Token Running]" Action at that Station earlier in the Game. Upon performing this Action, e gains one Gold Token. { Ah, nostalgia. This seems like an appropriate Gold mechanism for such a simple variant, anyway. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 896 - Flat-Earth Society [Multiple] Repeal all Rules of Section 2.5 (Spherical Projection), and remove the Section from the Ruleset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -It's like wrestling with a wrestler. From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Sep 28 17:46:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 29 Sep 1999 00:49:36 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28919 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 00:48:52 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 00:48:52 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01525 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:46:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:51:53 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Proposal 892 - Charge Matching [Amendment] > >Remove the phrase "if charge does not match" from the [Opening MC] Action in >the Action table. > >{ > I don't know what this means, but I can't find any reference to > it in the rest of the Ruleset so I'll assume it's a hang-on from > some earlier Rule. >} > It refers to the fact that you can perform the action for free if your charge would be 18 (equal to MC itself) upon arriving there. The applicable rule is in the section on Current and Charge, assuming it hasn't been removed while my back was turned. --Riff "It's hard to kill a man who can stand on one foot." --"Ronnie Rocket", by David Lynch From kevan@s... Wed Sep 29 01:44:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 29 Sep 1999 08:47:59 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 5635 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 08:46:33 -0000 Received: from mv.egroups.com (207.138.41.150) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 08:46:33 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Sep 1999 09:46:31 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 01:46:19 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7ssjkr$j0cg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00a601bf09fe$e0c65260$7b7b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 890 - The Fast Game [Enactment] > > In the Fast Game if a Player takes more than 36 hours (excluding weekends) > to take a Turn then a Move of Timeout is automatically made and [...] "Automatically made" seems a bit awkward, in absence of any automatic way for Turns to be submitted; I can imagine things becoming awkward if a few people take a while to submit turns consecutively. Might it be easier just to say "if a Player doesn't take eir Turn within 36 hours, e may not submit a Turn for that Round", or somesuch? >Proposal 891 - Busy Buzzy Bee [Multiple] > >{ > Mistimed Turns become Legal if the Buzzed Turn becomes Legal, so Buzzing is > not an underhand way to retake a regretted Turn. >} My brain hurts too much to think whether this covers everything or not. It seems alright at first glance, though. >{ > Stops Turns being Buzzed that were valid at the time taken, but not after > a Ruleset change. >} Very good point. > If a Turn is currently being Buzzed then no further Buzzes can be made in > that Game. "Currently Questionable", though, surely? The act of Buzzing only takes an instant. >Proposal 892 - Charge Matching [Amendment] > >Remove the phrase "if charge does not match" from the [Opening MC] Action in >the Action table. > >{ > I don't know what this means, but I can't find any reference to > it in the rest of the Ruleset so I'll assume it's a hang-on from > some earlier Rule. >} It was a hangover from an old Rule; I'm afraid we *did* repeal it in the end, RiffRaff - if you browse the archives you'll find the full discussion of it, but basically there were one too many clever-maths-tricks for managing a Charge win, and it was something that could be very unexpected, compared to the "Oh, Paul's got two Golds, I'd better keep an eye on him" stuff of normality. It metamorphosed into Electroplating (Bronze to Gold if you've got a high enough Charge), for what it's worth. > Proposal 893 - Y2K bug [Enactment] > > Rule 1.7.62 (Let's go to the Dome, Simone) does not apply to the Long > Game. Tch, I'd forgotten we intended to fix this. Well remembered. >Proposal 894 - No Walkouts [Amendment] > >{ > At the moment if a Player is Timed out at a non-Trap Station or (possibly) > Walks away from a Trap Station the Loop ends. >} Walking or Straddling or the like, yes. I'd not noticed. Tch. This new approach will have to put something in the Disruptions Box, though, really. Good stuff, anyway. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://members.xoom.com/asabove From Wed Sep 29 13:09:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:12 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5313 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 20:12:08 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 27209 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 20:12:07 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 440 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 20:12:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.46) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:07 -0000 Message-ID: <00d401bf0ab6$84f2e620$2b7a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <00a601bf09fe$e0c65260$7b7b38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:23:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 895 - Baker Street [Special Ruleset] > > { Perhaps this would make the Game a little less intimidating to potentially > new Players; by playing with a highly cut-down set of Actions, the Game > becomes a lot simpler, and this is probably quite a good way to get a > taste for things. > > Even if we're not able to run a Baker Street Game continuously, I think > the presence of one such Game in the archive should be enough to convince > passers-by that the Game *is* quite simple, at heart. } I'm not sure passers-by will be digging deep into Special Rulesets. That said, it is an excellent idea. It is on my list of things to do write a "Rough Guide to Mornomic" for the web site, but it is fairly low down the list and the items at the top have been there for months without progress. > Proposal 896 - Flat-Earth Society [Multiple] > > Repeal all Rules of Section 2.5 (Spherical Projection), and remove the > Section from the Ruleset. I've only just looked at this one. It seems rather nice. Snow -Trevor replied to the General "Fuel the plane. We're going to invade Belgium". From Wed Sep 29 13:09:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:18 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5354 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 20:12:13 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 27212 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 20:12:12 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 447 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 20:12:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.46) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 20:12:12 -0000 Message-ID: <00d501bf0ab6$87f577c0$2b7a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <7ssjkr$j0cg@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:30:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: > >Proposal 890 - The Fast Game [Enactment] > > > > In the Fast Game if a Player takes more than 36 hours (excluding > weekends) > > to take a Turn then a Move of Timeout is automatically made and > [...] > > "Automatically made" seems a bit awkward, in absence of any automatic > way for Turns to be submitted; Yes, a good point. > I can imagine things becoming awkward if > a few people take a while to submit turns consecutively. Might it be > easier just to say "if a Player doesn't take eir Turn within 36 hours, e > may not submit a Turn for that Round", or somesuch? That would be better. > >Proposal 891 - Busy Buzzy Bee [Multiple] > > > If a Turn is currently being Buzzed then no further Buzzes can be > made in > > that Game. > > "Currently Questionable", though, surely? The act of Buzzing only takes > an > instant. Your right, but since this isn't currently covered in the Ruleset the Proposal won't remove anything. > >Proposal 894 - No Walkouts [Amendment] > > > >{ > > At the moment if a Player is Timed out at a non-Trap Station or > (possibly) > > Walks away from a Trap Station the Loop ends. > >} > > Walking or Straddling or the like, yes. I'd not noticed. Tch. This new > approach will have to put something in the Disruptions Box, though, > really. Yes. We could put it in the, as yet unexplained, Game States box and maybe include the Line States there as well. Snow -The penguins pushed the plane down the runway until the engines started and jumped in at the last minute. At last they were on their way to Belguim to confront the terrible compost-rights violations there. From Thu Sep 30 13:29:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 30 Sep 1999 20:32:53 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10925 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1999 20:32:50 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 1999 20:32:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 23917 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1999 20:32:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 30 Sep 1999 20:32:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 6640 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1999 20:32:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.65) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 1999 20:32:49 -0000 Message-ID: <00df01bf0b82$8eb8e840$417b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <00a601bf09fe$e0c65260$7b7b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:29:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 890 - The Fast Game [Enactment] I'm going to withdraw this, because I've had a better idea. Snow -nuf si sdrawkcab ffuts gnitirw From kevan@s... Mon Oct 4 01:34:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 04 Oct 1999 08:37:31 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15747 invoked from network); 4 Oct 1999 08:37:29 -0000 Received: from mv.egroups.com (207.138.41.150) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 1999 08:37:29 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 1999 09:37:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 01:37:24 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7t9p04$mbuo@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00d401bf0ab6$84f2e620$2b7a38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 22 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Proposal 895 - Baker Street [Special Ruleset] > > I'm not sure passers-by will be digging deep into Special Rulesets. That said, it is an excellent > idea. Well, a little mention in the FAQ or on the index page would be more than enough, I think. > It is on my list of things to do write a "Rough Guide to Mornomic" for the web site, but it is > fairly low down the list and the items at the top have been there for months without progress. I think we've considered such a few times before, and have dismissed it as a bad idea in light of the ruleset's continual overhauls. Having said that, though, I think we may well be at a stable enough point to sit down and write something - the FAQ already has, I believe, a brief overview of the game's workings; what depth might be required beyond that, I'm not sure. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Oct 5 14:28:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 05 Oct 1999 21:31:50 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6732 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:31:47 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:31:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 27389 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:31:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.86) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:31:45 -0000 Message-ID: <00aa01bf0f78$9c47b320$567b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:02:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Vetoed Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan made the following Proposal under the apparent belief that Prop 888 failed. Since it didn't there seems little point voting on it. I don't think anyone will object to me vetoing it? > Proposal - Are You *Sure* You Can't Hear Snoring? [Enactment, 0.3] > > Any Player may Inactivate another Player by announcing this fact in the > Discussion Lounge, provided that the Inactivated Player has neither Voted > nor played a Mornington Crescent move for more than three weeks. > > When a Player is Inactivated in this fashion, e becomes Inactive. > > { This failed last Week, bizarrely. To underline the thinking behind it, > this > is a way of Inactivating idle Players to stop them mucking up Quorum by > failing to Vote, or holding up Games by not doing anything. If someone > should be Inactivated when they had every intention of doing stuff later > that day, they can immediately declare themselves Active again. > > Nothing controversial there, surely? } MN Speaker -REDS (Rapid Elephant Deployment Service) member. From Tue Oct 5 14:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 05 Oct 1999 21:31:55 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4812 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:31:53 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:31:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 27392 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:31:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.86) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:31:46 -0000 Message-ID: <00ab01bf0f78$9d07f5e0$567b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:58:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 23 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Three ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 897 - Did You Spill My Podumes? [Multiple] Replace the word "Stribble" with "Topple" throughout the Ruleset, and rename Rule 1.7.55 (Stribble me Timbers) to "Did You Spill My Podumes?". { A more intuitive term; I keep expecting Stribbling to be a Piece-mover, along the lines of Straddling and Striling. I'd rather see Stribbling freed up for something else, and Toppling (an idea I'd been meaning to include for a while, but which seems eminently covered by Stribbling) written in. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 898 - Block Block [Multiple] 1. Tetris [Amendment] In Rule 1.9.1 (Basic Blocks), replace "is a Station adjacent" with "is an unoccupied Station adjacent". { Too powerful, otherwise; a single Red to paralyse someone is quite harsh, even more so if done after a Clamp and Straddle-to-adjacent-Station. Ugh. This takes it back to how things used to be, anyway. } 2. Lucky the Guys Told Me My Bedroom Was On Fire [Amendment] In Rule 1.9.2 (Escalator Fires), replace "is a Station which" with "is an unoccupied Station which". { Noticing a Fire at an occupied Station is rather silly. Not to mention rather powerful. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 899 - Nomic Nostalgia [Enactment] Each Player who voted AGAINST this Proposal gains ten Kudos. The Speaker shall select a random Player who voted FOR this Proposal - that Player gains twenty Kudos. This Rule will then repeal itself. { Sorry, I'm just at a loose end and harking back to the days of "proper" Nomic being-at-a-loose-end malarkey. A bit meaningless when Kudos doesn't count for anything, but still. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 900 - Free for All [Enactment] Create a new section /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Free for All \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Free for All In Free for All no restriction is placed on the order Player's make Turns. A Player may make one or more consecetive Turns. However each Player must wait for a minimum of 36 hours (excluding weekends) between each of eir Turns. If an event is said to last for one Round then it lasts to the start of any Player's second Turn since the event started. The Turn which caused the event counts as that Player's first Turn. If an event lasts for n Rounds then n+1 turns must be made by any Player before the event ends. Rule 2.x.2 - Rule by Force If no Player has made a Turn for 72 hours (excluding weekends) then any Active Player may announce to the list that the Game is being Forced, e then becomes the Forcing Player. When a Game is being Forced the Active Player who has taken the longest time since eir last Turn becomes the Forced Player and must make the next Turn. If the Forced Player doesn't make a Turn within 36 hours (excluding weekends) the Forcing Player may make a Turn for er. The only restriction placed on this Turn is that is must not include the [Giving Tokens to ] Action. If the Forcing Player does not make a Turn within 36 hours then any Player may make a Turn for the Forced Player as long as it does not contain the [Giving Tokens to ] Action. The Game stops being Forced when the Forced Player makes a Turn. If the Forced Player becomes Inactive a Turn may still be submitted for er. { Note that Players can still be timed out after 36 hours (and hence can't make another Turn for 36 hours). } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 901 - Why can't I make 23 consecative Turns? [Enactment] Add to the end of Rule 1.3.2 - Playing Sequence No Player may make two consecative Turns. If there is only one Active Player in a Game and that Player has made the most recent Turn then the Game will go on hold until another Player becomes Active. At that time it becomes the Turn of the newly Activated Player. Add to the end of Rule 1.1.1 - How to Win If there is only one Active Player in a Game then the Win must be confirmed by the Speaker. The Speaker may Buzz the Turn if e feels it is invalid. If there is only one Player in a Game then it should be abandoned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 902 - Shared Stories [Enactment] I propose this new section: /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Shared Stories \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Tell a Story Shared Stories is an annotated game of MC, in which Notes are compulsory. The compiled Notes of a game must constitute a continuous story. Each Player's Note for a given Turn must consist of a number of words equal to eir LV at the end of eir Turn. The winning Player must finish the story with eir submitted Note. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 903 - Solipsism [Enactment] /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Solipsism \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Me, Myself and I In Solipsism, all Players share the same Piece, and there is no Drone. Since no two Pieces can share a Line or Station (as there is only one Piece), all Actions having such a requirement are void. Each Player has eir own Home Station, LV, Charge and Tokens. The [Home] Action may not be played more than once by each Player. ============================================================================== These Proposals have been reproposed from Week 22. ============================================================================== Reproposal 904 - Busy Buzzy Bee [Multiple] Reword Rule 1.16.1 - One Good Turn A Turn may be Legal, Questionable, Illegal or Mistimed. Turns are Legal by default; if the most-recently taken Turn is Legal play may continue as normal. If a Turn is not Legal, play may not continue until the Turn has been established as Legal or Illegal. All Turns following a non-Legal Turn are deemed Mistimed. If a Turn is Illegal it, and all Turns that follow it, are deemed never to have occurred and play continues from the most recent Legal Turn. { Mistimed Turns become Legal if the Buzzed Turn becomes Legal, so Buzzing is not an underhand way to retake a regretted Turn. } In Rule 1.16.2 - Buzzing replace the sentence If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. with If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game at the time the Turn was subbmitted, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. { Stops Turns being Buzzed that were valid at the time taken, but not after a Ruleset change. } Add to the end of Rule 1.16.2 - Buzzing If a Turn is currently being Buzzed then no further Buzzes can be made in that Game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 905 - Charge Matching [Amendment] Remove the phrase "if charge does not match" from the [Opening MC] Action in the Action table. { I don't know what this means, but I can't find any reference to it in the rest of the Ruleset so I'll assume it's a hang-on from some earlier Rule. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 906 - Y2K bug [Enactment] Rule 2.1.x - Y2K bug Rule 1.7.62 (Let's go to the Dome, Simone) does not apply to the Long Game. This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reproposal 907 - No Walkouts [Amendment] Rewrite Rule 1.8.6 - Loop the Loop A Game may be in one of several Loop states, each of which must have the following defining features:- * One or more Trap Stations. * A Sidestep Action to allow a Player to avoid being drawn into the Loop. * A Terminate Action to allow a Player to end the Loop. If a Player finishes er Turn at a Trap Station and is not at the same Station e started er Turn at then the Game enters the Loop associated with that Trap Station. The Game does not leave the Loop until the Terminate Action for that Loop is made. When a Game is in a Loop, a Move to any Station other than the Next Station in that Loop is an Invalid Move, and a Special Move to the next listed Trap Station for that Loop is permitted (if no more are listed, a Special Move to the first in the list is permitted). If a Player performs the Sidestep Action, e ignores the Loop for the remainder of eir Turn. { At the moment if a Player is Timed out at a non-Trap Station or (possibly) Walks away from a Trap Station the Loop ends. } MN Speaker -Waving my legs in the air like a deranged koala bear. From Tue Oct 5 14:28:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 05 Oct 1999 21:31:57 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6804 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:31:55 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:31:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 27397 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.86) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:31:50 -0000 Message-ID: <00ac01bf0f78$9f397be0$567b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:59:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 22 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 22 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 890 The Fast Game -- Withdrawn -- 891 Busy Buzzy Bee 1 1 1 4 Quorum 892 Charge Matching 2 1 0 4 Quorum 893 Y2K bug 2 1 0 4 Quorum 894 No Walkouts 2 1 0 4 Quorum 895 Baker Street 2 1 0 4 Quorum 896 Flat-Earth Society 0 1 2 4 Quorum ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 890 (Snow) -- Withdrawn -- 891 (Snow) - - - - FOR - AGA - - PAS 892 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 893 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 894 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 895 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 896 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - AGA - - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - 895 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - 893 - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - 895 - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 43 0 17 9 4 22 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 43 0 17 9 4 22 Halved 0 0 21 0 8 4 2 11 FOR votes +0 +0 +2 +0 +0 +0 +0 +7 AGAINST votes +0 +0 -2 +0 +0 +0 +0 -1 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +5 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +9 +0 +9 +0 +0 +18 Final 11 10 0 0 30 0 17 4 2 29 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Help, I've got the brain of a madman. From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Oct 5 21:37:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 06 Oct 1999 04:40:50 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8940 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 04:40:43 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 04:40:43 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.241] (dhcp9542241.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.241]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA10306 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:37:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:43:46 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 23 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >2. Lucky the Guys Told Me My Bedroom Was On Fire [Amendment] "... I might have gone to sleep and accidentally burned to death." How did you know I'd been watching nothing but The Young Ones for the past two days? Has someone been monitoring my television viewing habits? Weird. Eerie. --Riff "As the eunuch said to Mussolini, 'I haven't got one, and even if I did I wouldn't show it to you." "It's hard to kill a man who can stand on one foot." --"Ronnie Rocket", by David Lynch From kevan@s... Wed Oct 6 01:07:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 06 Oct 1999 08:10:51 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 10627 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 08:10:48 -0000 Received: from mv.egroups.com (207.138.41.150) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 08:10:48 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.122] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 1999 09:10:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:04:07 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7tgo1n$oqjt@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf0f78$9c47b320$567b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Vetoed Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Kevan made the following Proposal under the apparent belief that Prop 888 failed. Since it didn't > there seems little point voting on it. I don't think anyone will object to me vetoing it? Er... ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 888 Can You Hear Snoring? 2 1 2 4 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ Or am I missing something? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Oct 6 10:53:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 06 Oct 1999 17:56:42 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22967 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 17:56:37 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 17:56:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 2428 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 17:56:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 17:56:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 10888 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 17:56:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.18) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 17:56:36 -0000 Message-ID: <003701bf1023$af89b2c0$126638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7tgo1n$oqjt@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:31:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Vetoed Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: > > Kevan made the following Proposal under the apparent belief that Prop > 888 failed. Since it didn't > > there seems little point voting on it. I don't think anyone will > object to me vetoing it? > > Er... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results > ------------------------------------------------------------ > 888 Can You Hear Snoring? 2 1 2 4 Fails > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Or am I missing something? No, you're not. I changed my mind and somehow the old version went on the website. The version I emailed was the correct version and should by now be on the website. I'll go and hit myself with a fish as punishment. Snow -Hitting himself with a fish. From kevan@s... Thu Oct 7 01:17:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 07 Oct 1999 08:20:27 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 29537 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 08:20:24 -0000 Received: from mv.egroups.com (207.138.41.150) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 08:20:24 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.123] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 1999 09:20:23 -0000 Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 02:20:19 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7thl43$g4d5@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <003701bf1023$af89b2c0$126638d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.76 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Inactivation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >No, you're not. I changed my mind and somehow the old version went on >the website. The version I emailed was the correct version and should >by now be on the website. Ah, fair enough. Well, since Inactivation is working after all, it's probably time to Inactivate Grimace, Jon and miKi. I hereby do so. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Thu Oct 7 10:54:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 07 Oct 1999 17:57:12 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18010 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 17:57:08 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 17:57:08 -0000 Received: (from smap) by ns1.seagate.com id KAA05519 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:57:07 -0700 Received: from unknown(134.204.114.75) by ns1.seagate.com via smap (V1.3) id sma005069; Thu Oct 7 17:55:50 1999 Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth1.seagate.com with SMTP id KAA17386 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:55:49 -0700 From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 88256803.0062A76F ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:57:33 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <88256803.0062A4C1.00@s...> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:55:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: MN: Re: Inactivation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fair cop guv - this working for a living lark - they expect you to work for your money! I shall remain a lurker... miKi kevan@s... on 10/07/99 02:20:19 AM Please respond to l-nomic-d@egroups.com To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com cc: (bcc: Richard M Brockie) Subject: MN: Inactivation >No, you're not. I changed my mind and somehow the old version went on >the website. The version I emailed was the correct version and should >by now be on the website. Ah, fair enough. Well, since Inactivation is working after all, it's probably time to Inactivate Grimace, Jon and miKi. I hereby do so. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL today. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/938 eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/l-nomic-d http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From Thu Oct 7 13:27:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 07 Oct 1999 20:30:13 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32505 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 20:30:10 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 20:30:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 19509 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 20:30:09 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 20:30:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 19246 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 20:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.6) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 20:30:08 -0000 Message-ID: <00da01bf1102$5273f0c0$067838d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:32:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 23 Reproposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following have been reproposed from Week 22. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 908 - Baker Street [Special Ruleset] { Perhaps this would make the Game a little less intimidating to potentially new Players; by playing with a highly cut-down set of Actions, the Game becomes a lot simpler, and this is probably quite a good way to get a taste for things. Even if we're not able to run a Baker Street Game continuously, I think the presence of one such Game in the archive should be enough to convince passers-by that the Game *is* quite simple, at heart. } 1. Elementary, My Dear Watson! [Enactment] The Baker Street Variant is a much-simplified version of the game, intended for Players who are new to the game (or who fancy a little relaxation). Although very similar to the Vanilla game in premise and style, it carries a few notable restrictions, most prominently the greatly reduced number of possible Actions. 2. Limited Actions [Enactment] The following Actions are the only ones which may be performed in a Baker Street Variant. (Note that "[Rent to ]" is the only Action to have an altered Token cost.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Applauding ] Neut 0.9.4 none [Blocking ] Post 1.9.1 1Re (S1) [Home] Pre 1.12.4 30 [Home: ] Neut 1.12.2 none [Line Change] Pre 1.5.11 none 1Bk [LV+X] Pre 1.6.1 [LV-X] Pre 1.6.1 [Opening MC] Neut 1.7.28 3Go if Charge does not match [Rent to ] Pre 1.12.3 4Any [Shunting to Post 1.10.1 1Re (S0,L0) ] # [Taking a Bow] Neut 0.9.4 none [Token Running] Neut x.x.x 1 Go ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Gaslamps [Enactment] In a Game of Baker Street, neither Charge nor Currents are used. 4. Modesty [Enactment] Players neither gain nor lose Points for partaking in a Baker Street Game. 5. Token Running [Enactment] A Player may perform the Action "[Token Running]" if eir Piece is situated at a Terminus Station outside of Zone 1, and if e has not performed the "[Token Running]" Action at that Station earlier in the Game. Upon performing this Action, e gains one Gold Token. { Ah, nostalgia. This seems like an appropriate Gold mechanism for such a simple variant, anyway. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 909 - Flat-Earth Society [Multiple] Repeal all Rules of Section 2.5 (Spherical Projection), and remove the Section from the Ruleset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -REM (Rapid Elephant Movement) From Thu Oct 7 13:27:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 07 Oct 1999 20:30:36 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 37 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 20:30:33 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 20:30:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 19518 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 20:30:32 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 20:30:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 19255 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 20:30:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.6) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 20:30:31 -0000 Message-ID: <00db01bf1102$60235bc0$067838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <00ab01bf0f78$9d07f5e0$567b38d4@snow> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:04:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 23 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 897 - Did You Spill My Podumes? [Multiple] > { A more intuitive term; I keep expecting Stribbling to be a Piece-mover, > along the lines of Straddling and Striling. Yes me too. > Proposal 898 - Block Block [Multiple] > { Too powerful, otherwise; a single Red to paralyse someone is quite harsh, You can always walk out and attack. Or block back > { Noticing a Fire at an occupied Station is rather silly. Not to mention > rather powerful. } I suppose so. > Proposal 900 - Free for All [Enactment] Enhanced Fast Game Super-Plus-Turbo. > Proposal 902 - Shared Stories [Enactment] This is sort-of Cheddar Gorge. Although I like the idea, I can't really see this working without completely ignoring the Vanilla Ruleset and just making up a new game, in which case it wouldn't really be MN... I think the problem is that a game that involves collabrative story telling can't really be competative and hope to make good stories. The story telling bit just has too much of a tacked-on feeling. I would rather leave it to Not York and MCiOS. > Proposal 903 - Solipsism [Enactment] I can't see anyone winning this. Players would just stay away from MC. Maybe if it was combined with Free for All...... Snow -Rucksack is not an anagram of Ann Widdecombe. From kevan@s... Fri Oct 8 05:37:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 08 Oct 1999 12:41:07 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 8757 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1999 12:41:04 -0000 Received: from mv.egroups.com (207.138.41.150) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 1999 12:41:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.123] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 1999 13:41:03 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 06:40:54 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7tkoom$3uc9@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <88256803.0062A4C1.00@s...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.77 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Inactivation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Fair cop guv - this working for a living lark - they expect you to work for > your money! I know, my lot do that. It's disgraceful. > I shall remain a lurker... Nice to know some of us are still here in spirit, then. We're getting down to fairly slim numbers of Active Players these days, anyway, by the looks of it - perhaps time to start persuading people to join, again? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Fri Oct 8 06:53:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 08 Oct 1999 13:56:29 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26554 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1999 13:56:23 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 1999 13:56:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 2353 invoked by uid 85); 8 Oct 1999 13:56:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 8 Oct 1999 13:56:29 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 9:56:28 EDT Subject: MN: Re: Inactivation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 06:40:54 -0700 kevan@s... wrote: > We're getting down to fairly slim numbers of Active Players these days, > anyway, by the looks of it - perhaps time to start persuading people to > join, again? I'm still lurking away as well, albeit intermittently. I'll probably reactivate fairly soon. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Tue Oct 12 13:36:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 12 Oct 1999 20:39:11 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27688 invoked from network); 12 Oct 1999 20:23:55 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Oct 1999 20:23:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 21202 invoked from network); 12 Oct 1999 20:23:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.162) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 12 Oct 1999 20:23:50 -0000 Message-ID: <00f601bf14ef$3e13fda0$a27b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:59:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 24 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Four ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 910 - Baker Street as played on ... [Enactment] If Proposal 908 Passes, enact the following Rule: Rule 4.4.x - Dr. Watson's Reward Under Baker Street Rules, West Ham, Hammersmith and Covent Garden are Special Stations. When a Piece finishes a Turn at any Special Station, that Player may collect any one (but no more than one) of the following rewards, provided that eir Piece did not start that Turn on a Special Station: * A green and a red token. * Two black tokens. * A black and a bronze token. * A blue token. This token reward is to allow beginner players a bonus for exploring the map and learning the practices of the game. [Just bringing an element of the 'real' Baker Street into the variant.] MN Speaker -Who's just recieved an email from his web-host sent tommorow! From Tue Oct 12 13:40:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 12 Oct 1999 20:43:24 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5799 invoked from network); 12 Oct 1999 20:23:50 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Oct 1999 20:23:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 21198 invoked from network); 12 Oct 1999 20:23:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.162) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 12 Oct 1999 20:23:49 -0000 Message-ID: <00f501bf14ef$3d42f200$a27b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:58:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 23 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 23 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 897 Did You Spill My Podumes? 2 1 0 3 Passes 898 Block Block 1 2 0 3 Passes 899 Nomic Nostalgia 0 1 2 3 Fails 900 Free for All 2 1 0 3 Passes 901 Why can't I make 23 consecative Tur 0 1 2 3 Fails 902 Shared Stories 0 1 2 3 Fails 903 Solipsism 2 1 0 3 Passes 904 Busy Buzzy Bee 1 1 1 3 Fails 905 Charge Matching 1 1 1 3 Fails 906 Y2K bug 2 1 0 3 Passes 907 No Walkouts 2 1 0 3 Passes 908 Baker Street 2 1 0 3 Passes 909 Flat-Earth Society 0 1 2 3 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 897 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 898 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - PAS 899 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - AGA - - AGA 900 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 901 (Snow) - - - - AGA - AGA - - PAS 902 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - AGA 903 (Ole) - - - - FOR - PAS - - FOR 904 (Snow) - - - - FOR - AGA - - PAS 905 (Snow) - - - - FOR - AGA - - PAS 906 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 907 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR - - PAS 908 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 909 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - AGA - - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - 899 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 30 0 17 4 2 29 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 30 0 17 4 2 29 Halved 15 8 2 1 14 FOR votes +5 +2 +0 +0 +8 AGAINST votes -4 -2 +0 +0 -4 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +2 +0 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +5 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +5 +9 +0 +0 +9 Final 11 10 0 0 20 0 17 2 1 23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Getting increasingly s***ped-off with his web-host. From Tue Oct 19 15:39:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 19 Oct 1999 22:42:49 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18186 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1999 22:42:10 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Oct 1999 22:42:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 14522 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1999 22:42:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.81) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 19 Oct 1999 22:42:07 -0000 Message-ID: <00b101bf1a83$12e1f760$517b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:49:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Voting Results Year 3 Week 24 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 24 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 910 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 0 3 Quorum ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 910 (Paul) - - - - - - - PAS - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 20 0 17 2 1 23 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 20 0 17 2 1 23 Halved 10 8 1 0 11 FOR votes +0 +0 +1 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +3 +0 +12 Final 11 10 0 0 10 0 8 4 0 23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Sitting on a bag of compost. From Tue Oct 19 15:39:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.262); by a1; 19 Oct 1999 22:43:02 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18232 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1999 22:42:12 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Oct 1999 22:42:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 14541 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1999 22:42:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.81) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 19 Oct 1999 22:42:10 -0000 Message-ID: <00b201bf1a83$14640380$517b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:19:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Proposals Year 3 Week 25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Five ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 911 - Higgins' Retroactive Token Declaration [Multiple] Add the following line into the Actions table in Rule 1.7.2: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Retroactivity] Post 1.x.y 20 1Re,1Bk,1Gr Enact the following Rule: A Player may invoke Higgins' Retroactive Token Declaration during their Post-Move Phase by playing the [Retroactivity] Action. When this is played during a Turn, the Token cost of any Action (including the Retroactivity Action) may be payed at any time during that Turn. In other words, the Player need not have the Tokens at the time of playing an Action, so long as at some time during the Turn those Tokens are gained - thus, the gaining of the Tokens is made retroactive to take place before the Action takes place. For instance, Rushton has no silver Tokens, and thus cannot pay to perform a Dollis Sidestep action. However, he can move to King's Cross St. Pancras and gain a 1 silver bonus for arriving at a five or more line interchange. During his turn, he plays a Retroactivity, and thus retroactively has the silver token to play the Dollis Sidestep. {Proposer's Note: I can't find any reference in the Ruleset that states that Retroactivity is explicitly not possible. It's pretty much a convention that we play, that you can't perform an action you can't pay for at the time of the action being performed. But can anyone find a reference in the ruleset? Anyway, in thinking about the way we play MN at the moment, one things we've culled enough from the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia and we should now look at the complex gameplay going on in ordinary MC games on servers everywhere.} MN Speaker -Brought to you using flicker vision. From kevan@s... Wed Oct 20 02:37:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 20 Oct 1999 09:41:03 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 31891 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 09:40:58 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 09:40:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Oct 1999 09:40:57 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 03:40:48 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7uk2n0$kh54@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00b101bf1a83$12e1f760$517b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Voting Results Year 3 Week 24 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ------------------------------------------------------------ > No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results > ------------------------------------------------------------ > 910 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 0 3 Quorum > ------------------------------------------------------------ Cuh. Sorry about that, and also for the Games that are waiting for me to do something; I've been rather busy the past week or so. I'll try and get stuff done tonight, or tomorrow. Apologising for the delay, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From kevan@s... Wed Oct 20 06:09:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 20 Oct 1999 13:12:51 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 27439 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 13:12:36 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 13:12:36 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Oct 1999 13:12:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 07:12:28 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7ukf3s$badm@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00b201bf1a83$14640380$517b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Proposals Year 3 Week 25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 911 - Higgins' Retroactive Token Declaration [Multiple] > >{Proposer's Note: I can't find any reference in the Ruleset that states that >Retroactivity is explicitly not possible. It's pretty much a convention >that we play, that you can't perform an action you can't pay for at the time >of the action being performed. But can anyone find a reference in the >ruleset? Rule 1.13.3 (Carol Vorderman's Revenge) *used* to have something to say on the matter, I think, but if it did then it's been mislaid. This sort of thing seems to happen a little too much, really - perhaps rule-rewording Proposals should show a before-and-after thing, so that it's easier to see what's being changed, and easier to spot a problem? Either way, this seems like a decent enough Proposal; it would have been nicer if it had also addressed the issue of the paying-as-you-go approach being used by default, though. >Anyway, in thinking about the way we play MN at the moment, one >things we've culled enough from the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia and we should >now look at the complex gameplay going on in ordinary MC games on servers >everywhere.} Certainly. After all, I've heard it said that some of the Encyclopaedia entries were just made up spur-of-the-moment by unscrupulous York players. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Oct 20 14:59:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 20 Oct 1999 22:02:16 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30346 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 21:54:04 -0000 Received: from merlins.force9.net (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 21:54:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 8487 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 21:54:03 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins.force9.net with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 21:54:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 25362 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 21:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.110.169) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 21:54:02 -0000 Message-ID: <000301bf1b45$7fcd0820$a96e38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <00b201bf1a83$14640380$517b38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:46:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Proposals Year 3 Week 25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 911 - Higgins' Retroactive Token Declaration [Multiple] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Retroactivity] Post 1.x.y 20 1Re,1Bk,1Gr Why Post Move? Can an Action affect something before it has been played? Even given the nature of the Action I'm not sure it explicity allows this. It would be better to make it Pre-Move surely? > {Proposer's Note: I can't find any reference in the Ruleset that states that > Retroactivity is explicitly not possible. It's pretty much a convention > that we play, that you can't perform an action you can't pay for at the time > of the action being performed. Rule 1.2.0 says "Actions are considered to occur in the order in which they are specified in the Player's Turn." and Rule 0.2.7 says Official Documents can only be changed if a Rule specifically allows it. I think this is enough to prevent retroactive behaviour (if we assume that Actions are added to the document one at a time). On the other hand I can't find anything to say you can't have negative Tokens... Snow -Wondering if he should spend some negative Golds. From Wed Oct 20 14:59:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 20 Oct 1999 22:02:20 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30440 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 21:54:14 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 21:54:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 32584 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 21:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 21:54:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 25368 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 21:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.110.169) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 21:54:06 -0000 Message-ID: <000601bf1b45$81e49d80$a96e38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:09:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 25 Reproposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Five ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following has been reproposed from Week 24. Reproposal 912 - Baker Street as played on ... [Enactment] If Proposal 908 Passes, enact the following Rule: Rule 4.4.x - Dr. Watson's Reward Under Baker Street Rules, West Ham, Hammersmith and Covent Garden are Special Stations. When a Piece finishes a Turn at any Special Station, that Player may collect any one (but no more than one) of the following rewards, provided that eir Piece did not start that Turn on a Special Station: * A green and a red token. * Two black tokens. * A black and a bronze token. * A blue token. This token reward is to allow beginner players a bonus for exploring the map and learning the practices of the game. [Just bringing an element of the 'real' Baker Street into the variant.] From kevan@s... Fri Oct 22 02:18:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 22 Oct 1999 09:21:29 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 25188 invoked from network); 22 Oct 1999 09:21:05 -0000 Received: from mu.egroups.com (207.138.41.151) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 1999 09:21:05 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.5] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Oct 1999 10:21:05 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 02:20:57 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7upa9p$meha@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Duplicity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the off-chance that any of you want *more* strange email games in your in-tray, here's a shameless plug for Duplicity, a thing I've just kicked into motion elsewhere in the eGroups world. A trivia game where the object is to give the same answer as other people, rather than the correct one. A basic ruleset's up, and play will begin just as soon as enough people turn up, anyway. Tell all of your friends. http://www.egroups.com/group/duplicity/ Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From kevan@s... Mon Oct 25 02:55:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 25 Oct 1999 09:59:04 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 2318 invoked from network); 25 Oct 1999 09:59:00 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Oct 1999 09:59:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Oct 1999 09:59:00 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 03:58:51 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7v19kr$9iso@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000601bf1b45$81e49d80$a96e38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Reproposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Reproposal 912 - Baker Street as played on ... [Enactment] > >Rule 4.4.x - Dr. Watson's Reward > >Under Baker Street Rules, West Ham, Hammersmith and Covent Garden are >Special Stations. When a Piece finishes a Turn at any Special Station, that >Player may collect any one (but no more than one) of the following rewards, >provided that eir Piece did not start that Turn on a Special Station: > >* A green and a red token. >* Two black tokens. >* A black and a bronze token. >* A blue token. > >This token reward is to allow beginner players a bonus for exploring the map >and learning the practices of the game. Er, it should probably be noted that there's no real way to spend Green, Blue or Bronze Tokens in the Baker Street variant, aside from the "any" of Rent payment. >[Just bringing an element of the 'real' Baker Street into the variant.] I did wonder how to work this aspect of it in, but couldn't think of a pleasing way to achieve it (limiting Moves to four Stations seeming rather pointless). This might be a more interesting approach, handled differently (one Gold from each?), but I doubt it'd be a very helpful introduction. Hmm. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Oct 26 12:50:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 26 Oct 1999 19:54:14 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25081 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 19:54:00 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 19:54:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 23684 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 19:53:59 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 19:53:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 11579 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 19:53:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.95.244) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 19:53:58 -0000 Message-ID: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:17:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Six ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 913 - Collapsing Singularity [Multiple] 1. Implosion [Amendment] Repeal Rule 1.7.50 (Singularity). 2. Most Singular [Amendment] Remove all mention of Singularity from Rule 1.7.2 (Actions). { Rule 1.10.0 (Target Practice) now covers the multiple-Shunting/Clamping business quite neatly, and I'm afraid I still can't see any reason for denying a same-Turn Anti-Narg, Busk and Pigeon Catch, or whatever. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 914 - Soap Distant [Multiple] To the list of things caused by Soap in Rule 1.20.6 (Soap on the Tracks), add:- * Any Player performing a Special Move to a Station on that Line must, immediately after eir Move, move eir Piece to an unblocked Station adjacent to that Station, unless all adjacent Stations are Blocked. Also, insert a few more carriage returns in Section 1.20; it looks a bit cramped, at present. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 915 - Stack Tracking [Amendment] To the end of Rule 1.4.19 (Token Tracking), add:- In the GSD's list of Token Stacks, each Station name should have its Quadrant appended to it, in parentheses. { I don't know about you, but I usually can't be bothered to check which Quadrant each existing Stack rests in, and, unless I recognise a particularly obvious one, just create a new Stack instead. Not good. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 916 - I'll Get My Coat [Amendment] Rename Rule 1.4.15 (You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two...) to "You Got A Light Mac?" (I keep expecting the Rule to be about pickpocketing rather than overcoats), remove the superfluous "subject to any restrictions on the number of objects that may be Nantucketed" (because there aren't any), and reword the third paragraph from:- If a Player loses eir Overcoat, any Nantucketed Possessions are lost as well. to:- If a Player's Overcoat is stolen by another Player, and the robbed Player has only one Overcoat, all of the victim's Nantucketed Possessions are moved (remaining Nantucketed) to the stealing Player's inventory. If a Player loses an Overcoat and has none left as a result, all of eir Nantucked Possessions are also lost. { Allowing "decoy Overcoats" if anyone can be bothered. This seems the most reasonable way to deal with multiple coats, anyway. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 917 - A Great Fall [Multiple] Repeal Rule 1.8.14 (Humpty Dumpty Loop) and remove the relevant Actions from Rule 1.7.2 (Actions). { After too many occurences of this Loop being initiated and not realised (and even not realised by the initiating Player), I think it's time for it to go, or at least be replaced. I'd suggest the Pimlico Loop again, but nobody ever seems to go for it. Feel free to suggest replacements next week, I suppose. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 918 - Fingers on Buzzers [Multiple] { As before, but with Questionable Turns rather than Buzzed ones. } Reword Rule 1.16.1 - One Good Turn A Turn may be Legal, Questionable, Illegal or Mistimed. Turns are Legal by default; if the most-recently taken Turn is Legal play may continue as normal. If a Turn is not Legal, play may not continue until the Turn has been established as Legal or Illegal. All Turns following a non-Legal Turn are deemed Mistimed. If a Turn is Illegal it, and all Turns that follow it, are deemed never to have occurred and play continues from the most recent Legal Turn. { Mistimed Turns become Legal if the Questionable Turn becomes Legal, so Buzzing is not an underhand way to retake a regretted Turn. } In Rule 1.16.2 - Buzzing replace the sentence If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. with If a Player believes that another Player has made a Turn which is not in accordance with the Rules being used for that Game at the time the Turn was subbmitted, and if no more than three other Turns have been made since, e may Buzz that Turn. { Stops Turns being Buzzed that were valid at the time taken, but not after a Ruleset change. } Add to the end of Rule 1.16.2 - Buzzing If a Turn is Questionable then no further Buzzes can be made in that Game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 919 - Clean up [Multiple] { There's a lot of stuff here, but I don't think any of it is contraversial, so I've lumped it all together. } 1) ---------- In Rule 0.2.7 - Free for All Replace the current state of the Mornington Crescent Game with Games State Documents { I don't know whether this originally refered to the Fluid/Frozen thing or was from when there was only one Game, but it will be better this way. } 2) --------- Remove the phrase "if charge does not match" from the [Opening MC] Action in the Action table and the Baker Street variant (Section 2.14). { This definitly shouldn't be there. } 3) --------- Start Rule 0.4.3 - Proposal Submission Each Player may instead of Players may 4) -------- In Rule 0.4.5 - Proposal Enactment Remove the bracketed text (or, in the case of Emergency Proposals, the moment at which the Judge declares eir Vote) { Judges aren't used any more. No Replacement for this text is needed since the EProp Rule is worded appropriatly } 5) -------- Move Rule 0.4.16 - Voting Comments to SECTION 0.5 - Votes 6) -------- In Rule 0.5.6 - Distribution of Voting Results Remove the "the" from and relevant information concerning the each Proposal's passage ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 920 - Today's Special [Multiple] In Rule 0.2.10 - Special Rulesets Remove the paragraphs Special Rulesets may be referred to explicitly by name, or by number in the form 'SR ' where is the relevant number. Change the paragraph No Special Ruleset may alter the rules of Mornington Nomic, directly or otherwise. to The only Rules Special Rulesets may alter, directly or otherwise, are its own. MN Speaker -Weighing up the pros and cons of buying Rolf Harris's Greatest Hits album (£3.99 from HMV). From Tue Oct 26 12:50:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 26 Oct 1999 19:54:16 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24810 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 19:54:01 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 19:54:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 3533 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 19:54:00 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 19:54:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 11581 invoked from network); 26 Oct 1999 19:54:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.95.244) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 26 Oct 1999 19:54:00 -0000 Message-ID: <007201bf1feb$b5446fc0$f45f38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:23:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 25 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 911 Higgins' Retroactive Token Declarat 1 1 2 3 Fails 912 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 2 3 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 911 (Paul) - - - - FOR - AGA PAS - AGA 912 (Paul) - - - - AGA - FOR PAS - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 10 0 8 4 0 23 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 10 0 8 4 0 23 Halved 5 4 2 0 11 FOR votes +0 +0 +2 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 -4 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +2 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +4 +4 +0 +0 +12 Final 11 10 0 0 9 0 8 2 0 23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -With a super new Barclays Bank mouse mat. From Tue Oct 26 23:23:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 06:26:27 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24642 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 06:26:22 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 06:26:22 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA26302; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:26:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma026233; Wed, 27 Oct 99 16:26:08 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:26:07 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:26:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, October 27, 1999 5:24 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > 911 Higgins' Retroactive Token Declarat 1 1 2 3 Fails > 912 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 2 3 Fails *sigh* Though we make communication easier, by allowing it in the voting and by making voting easier, we seem to have progressed little in the direction of telling proposers why their proposals are not liked. As I'm assuming that no-one wants a proposal that makes it mandatory for a Player voting 'Against' to supply a reason[1], I'm appealing to the public to find out what was wrong with the two proposals I thought - from all the conversation in the last week here - were not badly received. [1] However, if people want to I'll propose it. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Wed Oct 27 01:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 08:18:33 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 29222 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 08:18:31 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 08:18:31 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Oct 1999 08:18:31 -0000 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 02:18:26 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7v6cgi$qhm2@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 911 Higgins' Retroactive Token Declarat 1 1 2 3 Fails > > 912 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 2 3 Fails > > I'm appealing to the public to find > out what was wrong with the two proposals I thought - from all the > conversation in the last week here - were not badly received. The Retroactive thing seemed alright to me, although it would have been nice if it had clarified the ambiguity of what happened in normal circumstances. The Baker Street amendment struck me as a little flawed in the fact that most of the gainable Tokens couldn't be spent, as I said. I think only having three Active Voters is probably denting things unfairly, really. >[1] However, if people want to I'll propose [compulsory commenting for > AGAINST Votes] Might be a good idea, actually, even if people just say "I agree with Player X's comments on the mailing list" or whatever. In a Nomic where the only motive to shoot down a proposal is its being Bad For The Game, this can't hurt, and could well be helpful. Although I'm not sure how you'd word it to catch AGAINST Votes which carelessly lacked a comment - should they be ignored, or should the Voter merely lose Kudos? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Wed Oct 27 03:12:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 10:15:51 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21379 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 10:15:48 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 10:15:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 18179 invoked by uid 85); 27 Oct 1999 10:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 10:15:39 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 6:15:39 EDT Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: > I think only having three Active Voters is probably denting things > unfairly, really. Yes, well... I'm probably going to reactivate in a couple of weeks or so, which may help. > >[1] However, if people want to I'll propose [compulsory commenting for > > AGAINST Votes] > > Might be a good idea, actually, even if people just say "I agree with > Player X's comments on the mailing list" or whatever. In a Nomic where > the only motive to shoot down a proposal is its being Bad For The Game, > this can't hurt, and could well be helpful. > > Although I'm not sure how you'd word it to catch AGAINST Votes which > carelessly lacked a comment - should they be ignored, or should the > Voter merely lose Kudos? I'd be inclined to ignore them. The Kudos penalty for indecisiveness would then kick in. The Proposal implementing this would have to be very carefully worded such that the comment would have to be a meaningful explanation, rather than arbitrary text. Finally, the Voting Booth could be changed to reject AGAINST votes without a comment, although obviously it wouldn't be able to gauge the relevance of the text. Cheers. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Wed Oct 27 13:31:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 20:34:55 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22993 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 20:34:54 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 20:34:54 -0000 Received: from opus (p447-70.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.70]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA00476 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:32:34 +0200 Message-ID: <01ec01bf20ba$a6171640$83872fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:22:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: : As I'm : assuming that no-one wants a proposal that makes it mandatory for a Player : voting 'Against' to supply a reason[1], I'm appealing to the public to find : out what was wrong with the two proposals I thought - from all the : conversation in the last week here - were not badly received. I voted against Higgins because of the Post-part. I would have liked it much more if the action had been Pre. And as to not saying so... it was lucky that I found the time to vote at all. Ole From Wed Oct 27 13:31:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 20:34:57 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23015 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 20:34:56 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 20:34:56 -0000 Received: from opus (p447-70.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.70]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA00482 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:32:35 +0200 Message-ID: <01ed01bf20ba$a6e821e0$83872fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:33:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Proposal 913 - Collapsing Singularity [Multiple] Fine. : Proposal 914 - Soap Distant [Multiple] : : To the list of things caused by Soap in Rule 1.20.6 (Soap on the Tracks), : add:- : : * Any Player performing a Special Move to a Station on that Line must, : immediately after eir Move, move eir Piece to an unblocked Station : adjacent to that Station, unless all adjacent Stations are Blocked. Having to move *after* one's Turn seems to be hard to implement. How would you write it? And is moving after one's Turn at all permissible? : : Also, insert a few more carriage returns in Section 1.20; it looks a bit : cramped, at present. That sounds fair. : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- : : Proposal 915 - Stack Tracking [Amendment] : : To the end of Rule 1.4.19 (Token Tracking), add:- : : In the GSD's list of Token Stacks, each Station name should have its : Quadrant appended to it, in parentheses. Nah. It would ruin my attempt at putting line numbers on the stacks in Chateau d'Eau. Finding one's way round London is not *that* hard, methinks. : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- : : Proposal 916 - I'll Get My Coat [Amendment] : Nice. : : Proposal 917 - A Great Fall [Multiple] : I assume it has to go. I hope to reintroduce it, perhaps as a non-automatic loop. There was this proposal about having two kinds of loops, where some loops would have to be declared, while others, eg Dollis Hill, were automatic.... If any of you want to make such a prop, feel free. : : Proposal 918 - Fingers on Buzzers [Multiple] : Appears to be OK. : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- : : Proposal 919 - Clean up [Multiple] : Sure. : : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- : : Proposal 920 - Today's Special [Multiple] : : In Rule 0.2.10 - Special Rulesets : : Remove the paragraphs : : Special Rulesets may be referred to explicitly by name, or by number in : the form 'SR ' where is the relevant number. : : Change the paragraph : : No Special Ruleset may alter the rules of Mornington Nomic, directly : or otherwise. : : to : : The only Rules Special Rulesets may alter, directly or otherwise, are its : own. How about Rulesets referring to each other? Capture the Flag is a Team game, IIRC. Does this mean that changes in the Team game rules would have no effect on the Capture the Flag rules? Ole From Wed Oct 27 13:57:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 21:01:15 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15006 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 20:59:42 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 20:59:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 16634 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 20:59:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.14) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 20:59:40 -0000 Message-ID: <00e901bf20be$0bda6380$0e7838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:59:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Wednesday, October 27, 1999 5:24 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] > wrote: > > 911 Higgins' Retroactive Token Declarat 1 1 2 3 Fails > > 912 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 2 3 Fails > > *sigh* Though we make communication easier, by allowing it in the voting > and by making voting easier, we seem to have progressed little in the > direction of telling proposers why their proposals are not liked. I voted against the Baker Street Prop because of Kevan's comments (that the gained tokens were unuseable). I just didn't like the retroactive one, even if I'd thought the Post-move thing wasn't a problem. > As I'm > assuming that no-one wants a proposal that makes it mandatory for a Player > voting 'Against' to supply a reason[1], I can't say I would vote with such a Proposal. Snow -Probably the only person that gets claustrophobic about the entire universe. From Wed Oct 27 13:57:57 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 21:01:15 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15017 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 20:59:43 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 20:59:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 16640 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 20:59:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.14) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 20:59:42 -0000 Message-ID: <00ea01bf20be$0c9c2ce0$0e7838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:06:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 913 - Collapsing Singularity [Multiple] Seems fine. > Proposal 914 - Soap Distant [Multiple] OK. > Proposal 915 - Stack Tracking [Amendment] Fine. > Proposal 916 - I'll Get My Coat [Amendment] > remove the superfluous "subject to any restrictions on > the number of objects that may be Nantucketed" (because there aren't > any), The first paragraph of Rule 1.4.15 says Up to four Small Possessions may be stored therein > Proposal 917 - A Great Fall [Multiple] Good, but what about the Games that are in Humpties already? Under the new Loop rules they will remain in the Loop until the Loop terminate Action is played. I made a similar mistake when I changed the Loop Rule, as a result it's not clear whether Game 19 is in a Loop or not. Snow -"Licensed to kill" From Wed Oct 27 14:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 21:17:11 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19382 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 21:17:09 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 21:17:09 -0000 Received: from opus (p447-70.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.70]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA11174 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:14:49 +0200 Message-ID: <020701bf20c0$8b59efc0$83872fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> <00ea01bf20be$0c9c2ce0$0e7838d4@snow> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:16:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : > Proposal 917 - A Great Fall [Multiple] : : Good, but what about the Games that are in Humpties already? Under the new Loop rules they will : remain in the Loop until the Loop terminate Action is played. I assume that they will stay in the loop, but that the undefined-ness of this will cause the state to be of little importance. Ole From Wed Oct 27 16:36:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 27 Oct 1999 23:39:49 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29396 invoked from network); 27 Oct 1999 23:39:43 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 1999 23:39:43 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA09106; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:39:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma009000; Thu, 28 Oct 99 09:39:30 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:39:29 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:39:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, October 27, 1999 7:18 PM, kevan@s... [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > > > 911 Higgins' Retroactive Token Declarat 1 1 2 3 Fails > > > 912 Baker Street as played on ... 1 1 2 3 Fails > > > > I'm appealing to the public to find > > out what was wrong with the two proposals I thought - from all the > > conversation in the last week here - were not badly received. > > The Retroactive thing seemed alright to me, although it would have been > nice if it had clarified the ambiguity of what happened in normal > circumstances. The Baker Street amendment struck me as a little flawed > in the fact that most of the gainable Tokens couldn't be spent, as I > said. As to the Baker Street proposal, I agree - not enough analysis of the Baker Street game is my excuse. I hope you liked the fact that one can't just shuttle from one to the other (West Ham being difficult but manageable) but have to make them separate moves. If the game is designed to encourage newer players, then it should have them doing a variety of stuff. Does everyone think that one gold should be the reward for this? > >[1] However, if people want to I'll propose [compulsory commenting for > > AGAINST Votes] > > Although I'm not sure how you'd word it to catch AGAINST Votes which > carelessly lacked a comment - should they be ignored, or should the > Voter merely lose Kudos? I think Dunx' idea of having an AGAINST vote without a comment as being counted a PASS is a fine idea - the Proposal would be called "Strong Feelings" and would basically say that if you didn't include a reason as to why you voted AGAINST the Proposal as your Comment, then your vote would be changed to PASS, because you should have a good reason for voting against something. Comments, everyone? So you're now at Stormloader, Kevan? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Oct 27 17:21:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 00:25:16 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13954 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 00:25:09 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 00:25:09 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA12182; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:25:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa11954; Thu, 28 Oct 99 10:24:44 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:24:43 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:24:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 25 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, October 28, 1999 6:22 AM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > I voted against Higgins because of the Post-part. I would have liked it > much more if the action had been Pre. Interestingly, I left it as a Post Action because it can then apply to itself. If it were a Pre action, then you would have to have the tokens for it already, which is sort of exactly what it's trying to circumvent, if you see what I mean. What about a Neutral action? Then it's your choice. Realistically, it makes little difference; the only things that need to be definitely Pre or Post are so becaue they make sure that certain effects (e.g. Wilding) take place over two turns, rather than within a turn. Otherwise, Wilding would be far too powerful. > And as to not saying so... it was lucky that I found the time to vote at > all. I'm usually (note not always *sheepish grin*) saved by the reminder. A thousand blessings upon the person who thought of using it! Smooth noodle maps, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Oct 27 19:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 02:17:12 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6365 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 02:17:09 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 02:17:09 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA14549; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:17:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma014366; Thu, 28 Oct 99 12:16:45 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:16:45 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:16:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, October 28, 1999 6:33 AM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > : Proposal 913 - Collapsing Singularity [Multiple] > Fine. Pity; I think that Singularity is useful to prevent overly agressive turns. But then the 'First Post Action' method seems to be working well. I have to admit a small pang of regret as its proposer, but the feeling is obviously against it. > Having to move *after* one's Turn seems to be hard to implement. > How would you write it? And is moving after one's Turn at all permissible? Well, someone can shunt you - that's moving your piece after your turn. So I'd implement it as a 'piece is moved automatically to' thing - controllable by the player, of course, but at the same time it's pretty much the same with Straddles. > Nah. It would ruin my attempt at putting line numbers on the stacks in > Chateau d'Eau. Finding one's way round London is not *that* hard, > methinks. Well, I was going to say "speak for yourself", but as one non-Briton to another (I think) it seems pointless. Incidentally, how did you originally stumble on Mornington Crescent, Ole? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Oct 27 21:26:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 04:29:25 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23579 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 04:29:21 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 04:29:21 -0000 Received: from [24.95.79.98] (dhcp9579098.columbus.rr.com [24.95.79.98]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA12010 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:26:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:32:30 -0400 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Proposal 917 - A Great Fall [Multiple] > >Good, but what about the Games that are in Humpties already? Under the new >Loop rules they will >remain in the Loop until the Loop terminate Action is played. > >I made a similar mistake when I changed the Loop Rule, as a result it's >not clear whether Game 19 is >in a Loop or not. I was thinking of a proposal along the lines that a loop would only be initiated by the choice of the player, perhaps at the cost of a blue token. As I remember from playing Mornington Crescent, a Dollis Hill Loop was not always initiated every time someone played Dollis Hill... The other thing that bothers me about the wording of the loop rules, is that it specifies that you must move to the next station in the list of Trap Stations, unlike regular Mornington Crescent play where you could move to any of the Trap Stations. In an Aldwych/Amersham loop, for example, the two stations don't have to alternate - you can move to either one you choose. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Wed Oct 27 21:59:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 05:02:19 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18615 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 05:02:18 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 05:02:18 -0000 Received: from opus (p411-077.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.217.77]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA05915 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:02:14 +0200 Message-ID: <015501bf2101$8599db40$4dd952c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:17:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > Having to move *after* one's Turn seems to be hard to implement. : > How would you write it? And is moving after one's Turn at all permissible? : : Well, someone can shunt you - that's moving your piece after your turn. So : I'd implement it as a 'piece is moved automatically to' thing - controllable : by the player, of course, but at the same time it's pretty much the same : with Straddles. If I am Shunted, then *someone* moves *me*, and the move is incorporated in the grammar of the Shunt. : Incidentally, how did you originally stumble on Mornington Crescent, Ole? : I had found this nifty Nomic concept, and then I guess I came across the Nomic Database (or somesuch). And the rest is history. Ole From kevan@s... Thu Oct 28 03:10:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 10:14:05 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 11799 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 10:13:51 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 10:13:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Oct 1999 10:13:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 04:13:46 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7v97kq$r1ob@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <01ed01bf20ba$a6e821e0$83872fc3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : Proposal 914 - Soap Distant [Multiple] > > Having to move *after* one's Turn seems to be hard to implement. > How would you write it? And is moving after one's Turn at all permissible? It's Moving after one's *Move*, though, which is very easy to implement (Straddling, Compass Trickery, etc.). I confess I overlooked the documenting of it, though, and this is enough of a flaw to kill it, really. It needs a compulsory "[Slipping to ]" Action, so that other Players can tell, in future Moves, where Player X ended up. Tch. Reproposal next Week. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From kevan@s... Thu Oct 28 03:16:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 10:19:47 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 16173 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 10:19:43 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 10:19:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Oct 1999 10:19:43 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 04:19:42 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7v97vu$9a00@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00ea01bf20be$0c9c2ce0$0e7838d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Proposal 916 - I'll Get My Coat [Amendment] > > > remove the superfluous "subject to any restrictions on > > the number of objects that may be Nantucketed" (because there aren't > > any), > > The first paragraph of Rule 1.4.15 says > > Up to four Small Possessions may be stored therein Oh. Tch. I didn't notice that. I think that bit implies the superfluous bit anyway; everything in the Ruleset is subject to everything else in the Ruleset, after all. The four-limit does rather muck up stealing an Overcoat from someone, though. I'll tweak this next Week if I remember. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Thu Oct 28 12:27:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:56 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13699 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 19:30:55 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 21588 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 19:30:54 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 20647 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 19:30:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.133) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:53 -0000 Message-ID: <007a01bf217a$c96db480$856638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> <01ed01bf20ba$a6e821e0$83872fc3@opus> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:14:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > : Proposal 920 - Today's Special [Multiple] > : > : In Rule 0.2.10 - Special Rulesets > : Change the paragraph > : > : No Special Ruleset may alter the rules of Mornington Nomic, directly > : or otherwise. > : > : to > : > : The only Rules Special Rulesets may alter, directly or otherwise, are > its > : own. > > How about Rulesets referring to each other? Capture the Flag is a Team game, > IIRC. Does this mean that changes in the Team game rules would have no > effect on the Capture the Flag rules? If the Team game rules are used by other Rulesets then changes will automatically propagate. This Proposal doesn't affect Ruleset changes via Proposal. The Proposal just allows Special Rulesets to change themselves, but still forbids them from changing other Rulesets. eg The long game has something like "This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000" this will be allowed if the Proposal passes, but isn't currently. Snow -If I heat my brain to 50,000K I can communicate telepathically with crockery. From Thu Oct 28 12:27:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 19:31:00 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21060 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 19:30:56 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 32230 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 19:30:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 20649 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 19:30:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.133) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 19:30:54 -0000 Message-ID: <007b01bf217a$ca1eb500$856638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> <00ea01bf20be$0c9c2ce0$0e7838d4@snow> <020701bf20c0$8b59efc0$83872fc3@opus> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:14:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > Snow wrote: > : > Proposal 917 - A Great Fall [Multiple] > : > : Good, but what about the Games that are in Humpties already? Under the new > Loop rules they will > : remain in the Loop until the Loop terminate Action is played. > > I assume that they will stay in the loop, but that the undefined-ness of > this will cause the state to be of little importance. Players will still have to move to the next trap station, but there won't be one to move to. Snow -Replacing his brain with an inflatable crocodile. From Thu Oct 28 13:44:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 28 Oct 1999 20:47:44 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18807 invoked from network); 28 Oct 1999 20:47:13 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 1999 20:47:13 -0000 Received: from opus (p444-114.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.242]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA14673 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:47:10 +0200 Message-ID: <033e01bf2185$86ee62c0$e1882fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <007101bf1feb$b42eba00$f45f38d4@snow> <00ea01bf20be$0c9c2ce0$0e7838d4@snow> <020701bf20c0$8b59efc0$83872fc3@opus> <007b01bf217a$ca1eb500$856638d4@snow> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:44:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... : > I assume that they will stay in the loop, but that the undefined-ness of : > this will cause the state to be of little importance. : : Players will still have to move to the next trap station, but there won't be one to move to. I revise my position: How can one be in a Loop, when the said Loop is neither mentioned in the rules nor in the GSD? The moment the Loop is stricken from the ruleset, we have no indication of it's having been there. This could, btw, be a good reason to put Loops in the Disruptions box... or such. Ole From kevan@s... Fri Oct 29 01:09:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.272); by a1; 29 Oct 1999 08:12:58 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15356 invoked from network); 29 Oct 1999 08:12:56 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.net (HELO ci.egroups.com) (207.138.41.176) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Oct 1999 08:12:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 1999 08:12:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 02:12:55 -0700 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7vbku7$ehi3@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <033e01bf2185$86ee62c0$e1882fc3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 26 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Players will still have to move to the next trap station, but there won't >> be one to move to. > > I revise my position: > How can one be in a Loop, when the said Loop is neither mentioned in the > rules nor in the GSD? To throw in my two Bronze Tokens' worth, Rule 1.8.6 (Loop the Loop) says that a Loop State "must have" three specific features; Trap Stations, a Sidestep and an Escape. If something doesn't have these, it's not a Loop, even if we refer to it as "The Something-Or-Other Loop". > The moment the Loop is stricken from the ruleset, we have no indication of > it's having been there. I think the moment it's stricken, it stops being a Loop and, lacking any other defined effect on the Game, becomes entirely ineffectual. > This could, btw, be a good reason to put Loops in the Disruptions box... or > such. Mm. Aren't they already, though? I notice the Ruleset doesn't seem to have anything to say on the matter, mind. Still right here, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Nov 2 15:22:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 02 Nov 1999 23:26:15 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31538 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1999 23:26:08 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 1999 23:26:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 26366 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1999 21:40:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.233) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 2 Nov 1999 21:40:46 -0000 Message-ID: <000401bf257b$02b0a780$e97738d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:21:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Seven ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 921 - You Missed A Bit [Multiple] If the Proposal "Soap Distant" passed last Week, undo any effect it may have had on the Rulest. To the list of things caused by Soap in Rule 1.20.6 (Soap on the Tracks), add:- * Any Player performing a Special Move to a Station on that Line must, immediately after eir Move, perform the zero-duration zero-cost "[Sliding to ]" Action, where "" is a Station adjacent to eir current Location. A Player may only perform the "[Sliding...]" Action in this instance, and when e does so, eir Piece is Moved to the cited Station. Also, insert a few more carriage returns in Section 1.20; it looks a bit cramped, at present. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 922 - Another Coat Should Do It [Amendment] Rename Rule 1.4.15 (You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two...) to "You Got A Light Mac?" (I keep expecting the Rule to be about pickpocketing rather than overcoats), remove the phrase "subject to any restrictions on the number of objects that may be Nantucketed", replace "Up to four" with "Any number of", and reword the third paragraph from:- If a Player loses eir Overcoat, any Nantucketed Possessions are lost as well. to:- If a Player's Overcoat is stolen by another Player, and the robbed Player has only one Overcoat, all of the victim's Nantucketed Possessions are moved (remaining Nantucketed) to the stealing Player's inventory. If a Player loses an Overcoat and has none left as a result, all of eir Nantucked Possessions are also lost. {Speaker's comment: The similar Proposal from last Week passed, rendering a great deal of this unnessesary. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 923 - Down a Peg [Amendment] { Just simplifying the rather verbose and slightly scary wording... } Reword Rule 1.11.4 (Peg Leg) to:- A Station may be Pegged; this is indicated in the Disruptions Box by giving the Station name with a "(Peg)" suffix. If a Station is Pegged, any Turn which sees a Piece ending at that Station is Illegal. In addition, game objects (Tokens or Possessions) may not be placed at or removed from a Pegged Station. A Player may Peg a Station by playing the Post-Move Action [Pegging ] on any Station which eir Piece starts at, passes through, or is adjacent to at the end of eir Move provided that the Station does not contain a Piece. A Station is Unpegged by the Post-Move Action [Unpegging ] which may be played on any Pegged Station which the Actioning Player's Piece passes through or is adjacent to at the end of eir Move. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 924 - Power Shunts [Action] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action ('#' if Singular) Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Power-Shunting Post 1.10.x 1Re (S0,L0) to ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Power Shunt is identical in execution and effect to a normal Shunt, except that the Actioning Player's LV is unaffected, and e may not claim any Tokens or Possessions from the Shunted Player. { Further Shunt diversity. Perhaps an obvious one. Yawn. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 925 - Do I Really Have To Chew Seventy-Two Times, Keith? [Multiple] Change the duration of the "[Eating]" Action to ten minutes, and add to the Baguette bit of Rule 1.4.16 (Playing with Food):- The Action "[Eating Overpriced Baguette]" has a duration of twenty minutes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 926 - Knuff off! [Special Ruleset] Add to the end of Rule 2.10.5 - Knuff of it! [Knuffing] may not be performed in the same Turn as the [Home] Action. { In the Pachisi game Players have to go to others Home stations, making them easy targets for [Home][Knuffing ] sequences. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 927 - Vanillaisation [Special Ruleset] Replace all occurances of "Standard Ruleset", "Standard MN Ruleset" and "Standard Mornington Nomic Ruleset" with "Vanilla Ruleset" throughout the Ruleset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 928 - Dusting [Special Ruleset] { More non-contraversial stuff I hope. } Reword Rule 2.10.6 - States of Play Circle Line is always in its Clockwise State, so the [Circle: ] Actions are void. to The Circle Line is always in its Clockwise State. { The Action doesn't exist anymore. } --------------- In Rule 2.6.1 - Team Games Reword When a Player joins a Team Game, eir position in the Playing Order shall be chosen randomly from the set of possible positions which would not place em immediately before or after (the list wrapping from top to bottom) a member of eir Team. If no such positions exist, eir position is selected as normal. to When determining Playing Order, where possible, Players should not be put in positions following or preceding (the list wrapping from top to bottom) a member of eir own team. Other than this Playing Order should be determined as normal. { Just bringing the Team Game in line with the Vanilla Ruleset. } -------------- In Rule 4.1.2 - An Englishman's Home... Reword the end of paragrpah 2 from declare that Station as their Home Station in their first non-Passed Turn. to declare that Station as their Home Station in their first non-Passed, non-Timed-out Turn. --------------- Renumber Rule 4.1.4a - Winning The Easy Way and Rule 4.1.4b - Winning The Hard Way to 4.1.4 and 4.1.5 respectivly and change all references to them. { Illegal numbering. } -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -Dropping things on his steel toe caps to see if it hurts. From Tue Nov 2 15:23:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 02 Nov 1999 23:27:15 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32378 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1999 23:27:05 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 1999 23:27:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 26378 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1999 21:40:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.233) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 2 Nov 1999 21:40:49 -0000 Message-ID: <000501bf257b$0421eac0$e97738d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:21:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 26 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 26 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 913 Collapsing Singularity 3 1 0 3 Passes 914 Soap Distant 1 0 3 3 Fails 915 Stack Tracking 2 1 1 3 Passes 916 I'll Get My Coat 3 0 1 3 Passes 917 A Great Fall 3 1 0 3 Passes 918 Fingers on Buzzers 3 1 0 3 Passes 919 Clean up 3 1 0 3 Passes 920 Today's Special 1 2 1 3 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 913 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 914 (Kevan) - - - - AGA - AGA FOR - AGA 915 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - AGA FOR - FOR 916 (Kevan) - - - - AGA - FOR FOR - FOR 917 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR 918 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR FOR - PAS 919 (Snow) - - - - FOR - FOR FOR - PAS 920 (Snow) - - - - FOR - AGA PAS - PAS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - 917 - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - 919 - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 9 0 8 2 0 23 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 9 0 8 2 0 23 Halved 4 4 1 0 11 FOR votes +12 +0 +0 +0 +7 AGAINST votes -5 +0 +0 +0 -1 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +2 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +11 +4 +2 +0 +18 Final 11 10 0 0 15 0 8 3 0 29 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -"Inside Britain's [only] lesbian lap-dancing club." From kevan@s... Wed Nov 3 05:05:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 03 Nov 1999 13:09:01 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 7552 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 13:08:43 -0000 Received: from ml.egroups.com (10.1.1.31) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 13:08:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.122] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 1999 13:08:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:08:41 -0800 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7vpc4p$c83i@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: ParaNomic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a brief and shameless plug for a Nomic I've joined recently (yes, I get rewarded for recruiting new players); probably of more than moderate interest to some of you, though, since I'm pretty sure we've had a few references to the Paranoia role-playing-game bounced about over the years. It's looking to be quite an amusing thing, and it'd be good to see some of you over there. (I feel a need for a "Mornington Crescent Players" Secret Society.) http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/meridian/309/paranoia/ , anyway. Or browse the archives at http://www.onelist.com/community/paranomic . Returning you to your normal service, Kevan-R-GNM-1 -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Nov 3 12:22:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 03 Nov 1999 20:25:32 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32554 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 20:25:07 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 20:25:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 7931 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 20:25:06 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 20:25:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 17764 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 20:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.205) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 20:25:05 -0000 Message-ID: <002a01bf2639$9966b660$cd6638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000401bf257b$02b0a780$e97738d4@snow> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:19:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 921 - You Missed A Bit [Multiple] > > If the Proposal "Soap Distant" passed last Week, undo any effect it may have > had on the Rulest. It doesn't matter in this case, but I would like to voice my general disapproval of Proposals that undo Proposal X, especially if Proposal X removes or replaces stuff (which this doesn't). > To the list of things caused by Soap in Rule 1.20.6 (Soap on the Tracks), > add:- > > * Any Player performing a Special Move to a Station on that Line must, > immediately after eir Move, perform the zero-duration zero-cost > "[Sliding to ]" Action, where "" is a Station > adjacent to eir current Location. A Player may only perform the > "[Sliding...]" Action in this instance, and when e does so, eir > Piece is Moved to the cited Station. Rather messy, but it seems to be the only way to do it. Does it really need doing? Snow -"That's like hypnotising chickens." From Wed Nov 3 16:35:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 04 Nov 1999 00:38:45 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 777 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 00:38:41 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 00:38:41 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA18567; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma018495; Thu, 4 Nov 99 10:37:15 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:15 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, November 04, 1999 6:20 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > It doesn't matter in this case, but I would like to voice my general > disapproval of Proposals that undo Proposal X, especially if Proposal X removes > or replaces stuff (which this doesn't). Indeed. The problem is the overlap between proposing something and having last week's proposals passed or failed. By the time your proposal enters the queue, your proposal may already be out of date. This is another area where rewriting and revoking proposals comes in handy - I think those mechanisms are better suited to this problem than the rather blunt method Snow outlines above. > > * Any Player performing a Special Move to a Station on that Line > > must, > > immediately after eir Move, perform the zero-duration zero-cost > > "[Sliding to ]" Action, where "" is a Station > > adjacent to eir current Location. A Player may only perform the > > "[Sliding...]" Action in this instance, and when e does so, eir > > Piece is Moved to the cited Station. > > Rather messy, but it seems to be the only way to do it. Does it really > need doing? I'd tend to write this as: * If a Player performs a Special Move to a Station on that Line, their Piece gets automatically moved to an adjacent Station (Fosdyke Requirement S1L0) immediately after eir Move. The Station thus 'slipped to' is the final resting place of eir Piece and, as such, is the Station named in eir Move. Or, taking a fresh approach: * While a Line is Soaped, any Stations to which a Special Move is valid are replaced by those Stations immediately adjacent (Fosdyke Requirement S1L0). Thus, if the Jubilee is Soaped and Finchley Road is Wild, Special Moves can be made to West Hampstead or Swiss Cottage _but_not_ Finchley Road. I actually think the last is better, because it approaches the real problem - that the player doesn't land on the station e wants to Special Move to. Thus, the actual target of the Action is altered - and another way of looking at this is that there are different targets. But then I'm not the proposer... Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Thu Nov 4 01:36:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 04 Nov 1999 09:39:41 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1034 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 09:39:34 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 09:39:34 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.122] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 1999 09:39:34 -0000 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 01:39:27 -0800 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <7vrk8f$li08@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.78 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Rather messy, but it seems to be the only way to do it. Does it really > > need doing? > > I'd tend to write this as: > > * If a Player performs a Special Move to a Station on that Line, their Piece > gets automatically moved to an adjacent Station (Fosdyke Requirement S1L0) > immediately after eir Move. The Station thus 'slipped to' is the final > resting place of eir Piece and, as such, is the Station named in eir Move. I suppose that's fair enough. I just went for the commentary-Action to make the progress of the game clearer, for the benefit of future generations. I've a nagging feeling that writing one's Move as something it isn't might toss a spanner into the works somewhere, but can't really think of anything. > Or, taking a fresh approach: > > * While a Line is Soaped, any Stations to which a Special Move is valid are > replaced by those Stations immediately adjacent (Fosdyke Requirement S1L0). > Thus, if the Jubilee is Soaped and Finchley Road is Wild, Special Moves can > be made to West Hampstead or Swiss Cottage _but_not_ Finchley Road. > > I actually think the last is better, because it approaches the real problem > - that the player doesn't land on the station e wants to Special Move to. > Thus, the actual target of the Action is altered - and another way of > looking at this is that there are different targets. > > But then I'm not the proposer... Well, the "land and slip" approach seems more intuitive than "waver in mid-air and land elsewhere" thing; although of fairly minimal impact on the game, it carries the distinction that you *must be able to Move to the Station in the first place*. (And, maybe positively, the requirement to perform the Action straight after your Move means that you can't Shunt.) But the idea of Finchley Road being Blocked, whilst a slippery Wild to Swiss Cottage is still possible, is perhaps a little confusing (unless, I suppose, you picture the Block itself as being soapy as well, which is maybe fair enough). I dunno. I'll leave it to the Voters. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Thu Nov 4 13:22:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 04 Nov 1999 21:26:11 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22563 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 21:26:05 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 21:26:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 29488 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 21:25:04 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 21:25:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 24116 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 21:25:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.229) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 21:25:03 -0000 Message-ID: <005201bf270b$20762380$e56638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <7vrk8f$li08@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:20:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, the "land and slip" approach seems more intuitive than "waver in > mid-air and land elsewhere" thing; although of fairly minimal impact on > the game, it carries the distinction that you *must be able to Move to > the Station in the first place*. (And, maybe positively, the > requirement to perform the Action straight after your Move means that > you can't Shunt.) Maybe the Move could be made something like Vauxhall (via Oval) in the same way that normal Moves go Vauxhall (VC via CL). Snow -Wondering whether Pieces should be renamed Trains. From Thu Nov 4 13:22:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 04 Nov 1999 21:26:12 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22580 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 21:26:06 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 21:26:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 30157 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 21:25:05 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 21:25:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 24119 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1999 21:25:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.229) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 4 Nov 1999 21:25:04 -0000 Message-ID: <005301bf270b$211dfc40$e56638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:23:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Thursday, November 04, 1999 6:20 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > It doesn't matter in this case, but I would like to voice my general > > disapproval of Proposals that undo Proposal X, especially if Proposal X > removes > > or replaces stuff (which this doesn't). > > Indeed. The problem is the overlap between proposing something and having > last week's proposals passed or failed. By the time your proposal enters > the queue, your proposal may already be out of date. This is another area > where rewriting and revoking proposals comes in handy - I think those > mechanisms are better suited to this problem than the rather blunt method > Snow outlines above. I have no objections to Proposals that say "if Proposal X passes do this otherwise do that". It's ones that say "undo Proposal X" that might be troublesome. If multiple Proposals change the same Rule several Weeks running, it may be difficult to establish exactly what was there before the Proposal happened, especially if something is deleted. None of this matters in the above case because it didn't pass and would only have added stuff. Snow -How do you get an Englishman to apologise? Stand on his foot. From Fri Nov 5 22:37:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 06 Nov 1999 06:40:25 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24600 invoked from network); 6 Nov 1999 06:40:20 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 1999 06:40:20 -0000 Received: from opus (p454-115.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.133.243]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA26957 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:40:18 +0100 Message-ID: <00eb01bf2821$b1e3ee80$f3852fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <000401bf257b$02b0a780$e97738d4@snow> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 06:30:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 27 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Proposal 926 - Knuff off! [Special Ruleset] : : Add to the end of Rule 2.10.5 - Knuff of it! : : [Knuffing] may not be performed in the same Turn as the [Home] Action. : : { : In the Pachisi game Players have to go to others Home stations, making them : easy targets for [Home][Knuffing ] sequences. : } The greatest danger in real world ludo is when your piece lands on the space where another player's pieces enter the track. This, of course, only happens when e rolls 'globe' (or 6, if using an ordinary d6), and then decides to have one of eir pieces leave the starting position. In Pachisi Crescent, [Home] can only be performed by a piece in the starting position. True, there is no random element to limit this, but [Home] does change the Player's LV to 0. I'll probably vote for the proposal, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary. Ole From Sun Nov 7 07:49:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 07 Nov 1999 15:52:58 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 66 invoked from network); 7 Nov 1999 15:52:41 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 1999 15:52:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 12384 invoked from network); 7 Nov 1999 15:52:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.166) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Nov 1999 15:52:39 -0000 Message-ID: <000201bf2938$2e520da0$a67b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:27:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: MCMapper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've finally got this thing working. MCMapper is a program to get Station Currents from a JPEG or GIF image. www.snow.vg/program/mcmapper.html The interface is rather primative, as is the programming, the design is almost non-existant, it's riddled with bugs and could do with a good deal more functionality, but it will get the Station Currents out if you try hard enough. You will need a Java 1.1 VM to run it. I've tried it on MS JView v5 and Sun JRE v1.1.6 which worked fine and Sun JDK v1.2 which didn't. I have converted Dunx's map data so that it can be read by MCMapper (hope you don't mind Dunx), but the data structures are slightly different, so it's not optimal. Could anyone recommend a book on OO software design, preferably aimed at the kind of person that finds For Dummies books challenging? Snow -Converting the Ruleset to XML. From Sun Nov 7 13:26:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 07 Nov 1999 21:30:19 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10855 invoked from network); 7 Nov 1999 21:30:17 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 1999 21:30:17 -0000 Received: from opus (p429-069.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.142.197]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA26317 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:30:15 +0100 Message-ID: <00cc01bf2967$2f930dc0$c58e2fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <000201bf2938$2e520da0$a67b38d4@snow> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:33:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: MCMapper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : : You will need a Java 1.1 VM to run it. I've tried it on MS JView v5 and Sun JRE v1.1.6 which worked : fine and Sun JDK v1.2 which didn't. I get these Javathings at my usual Java retailer? : : I have converted Dunx's map data so that it can be read by MCMapper (hope you don't mind Dunx), but : the data structures are slightly different, so it's not optimal. Ahh.. how are your structures? : : Could anyone recommend a book on OO software design, preferably aimed at the kind of person that : finds For Dummies books challenging? My fave book on this subject is in Danish, and it isn't very good, so... No. : : Snow : -Converting the Ruleset to XML. : Wow! Ole From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Sun Nov 7 22:39:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 08 Nov 1999 06:42:26 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14759 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 06:42:13 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 06:42:13 -0000 Received: from [24.95.78.10] (dhcp9578010.columbus.rr.com [24.95.78.10]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA04269 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 01:38:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 01:45:26 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Subject: MN: Game 18? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who are we waiting on? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Dunx Mon Nov 8 01:08:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 08 Nov 1999 09:11:58 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3782 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 09:11:41 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 09:11:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 31014 invoked by uid 85); 8 Nov 1999 09:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 09:11:37 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 5:11:36 AST Subject: MN: Re: MCMapper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Snow" wrote: > I've finally got this thing working. MCMapper is a program to get Station > Currents from a JPEG or > GIF image. > > www.snow.vg/program/mcmapper.html Cool! Now all we need is something to use that information to parse game state documents and draw the current positions onto a map. > You will need a Java 1.1 VM to run it. I've tried it on MS JView v5 and > Sun JRE v1.1.6 which worked > fine and Sun JDK v1.2 which didn't. Oo er... how does it fail? I don't have a 1.2 JVM to hand at the mo, although I do need to get hold of one. Hmm. > I have converted Dunx's map data so that it can be read by MCMapper (hope > you don't mind Dunx), but > the data structures are slightly different, so it's not optimal. Of course I don't mind. I'm just glad they're being used. I'm also not fussed about the data structures - as long as what you're using works, and is general enough to cover other maps, I'm not bothered. > Could anyone recommend a book on OO software design, preferably aimed at > the kind of person that > finds For Dummies books challenging? Not really, since I've learnt OO on courses and as I've gone along rather than from a book. The only book I've read on the subject is "Object-oriented Modeling and Design" by James Rumbaugh (and four others) which is considered a classic. The notation used is similar to (indeed was the prototype for) parts of the UML standard, but it can be rather heavy going. A book I've seen consistently recommended is "Thinking In Java" by Bruce Eckel. I mention it because it apparently does a very good job of explaining how objects work in Java, so it might be a good bet here. An XML ruleset, eh? Want a hand? -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From kevan@s... Mon Nov 8 01:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 08 Nov 1999 09:19:08 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 7822 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 09:18:48 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.com (10.1.2.81) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 09:18:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 1999 09:18:48 -0000 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 01:18:42 -0800 From: kevan@s... To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8064hi$5npm@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Subject: MN: Re: Game 18? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Who are we waiting on? Moi, I'm afraid. Sorry to be so hopeless. I'll give it a look over lunch. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Nov 8 14:36:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 08 Nov 1999 22:39:29 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27255 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 22:39:27 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 22:39:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 15590 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 22:39:26 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 22:39:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 20786 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 22:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 22:39:25 -0000 Message-ID: <009901bf2a3a$2956fe20$607a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <199911080911.EAA22866@g...> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:51:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: MCMapper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said: > Now all we need is something to use that information to parse game state > documents and draw the current positions onto a map. That shouldn't be too difficult, but XMLifying the Ruleset and writing my XML/XSLT web site preprocessor take precedence. > > You will need a Java 1.1 VM to run it. I've tried it on MS JView v5 and > > Sun JRE v1.1.6 which worked > > fine and Sun JDK v1.2 which didn't. > > Oo er... how does it fail? I don't have a 1.2 JVM to hand at the mo, although > I do need to get hold of one. Hmm. It throws an exception when I try to use the XML parser. I don't know what the exception is or exactly where it's thrown because it goes off the top of the screen. > I'm also not fussed about the data structures - as long as what you're using > works, and is general enough to cover other maps, I'm not bothered. Sorry, I should have asked first really. I should also have asked whoever wrote the JavaScript calculator now I'm thinking about it. I removed some information about quadrants and zones because I figured they could be worked out automatically (in theory). I made it a little more flexable by allowing multiple lines on a line segment for co-situated stations (the bit that didn't transform well). And missed out the line orientation because I thought it would be too difficult to implement. It should work equally well on other maps. > The only book I've read on the subject is "Object-oriented Modeling and > Design" by James Rumbaugh (and four others) which is considered a classic. > The notation used is similar to (indeed was the prototype for) parts of the > UML standard, but it can be rather heavy going. I might look at that. > A book I've seen consistently recommended is "Thinking In Java" by Bruce > Eckel. I mention it because it apparently does a very good job of explaining > how objects work in Java, so it might be a good bet here. I read that, it's an excellent book to learn Java from, but not really about design. > An XML ruleset, eh? > > Want a hand? Unless you happen to know how to write an XSLT word wrapper it's just a matter of plodding through the Ruleset standardising the format, so the convertion can be automated. Not something I'd want to inflict on someone else really. I was actually doing this before I was distracted by TheVoteMachine and MCMapper, so it's not going to happen quickly. Snow -Standardising the Ruleset. From Mon Nov 8 14:36:06 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 08 Nov 1999 22:39:31 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27272 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 22:39:29 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 22:39:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 14537 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 22:39:28 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 22:39:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 20788 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 22:39:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.96) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 22:39:27 -0000 Message-ID: <009a01bf2a3a$2a313180$607a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000201bf2938$2e520da0$a67b38d4@snow> <00cc01bf2967$2f930dc0$c58e2fc3@opus> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:20:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Re: MCMapper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > Snow wrote: > : You will need a Java 1.1 VM to run it. I've tried it on MS JView v5 and > Sun JRE v1.1.6 which worked > : fine and Sun JDK v1.2 which didn't. > > I get these Javathings at my usual Java retailer? Since you're running IE5 you probably have MS JView already. To check type jview at a command prompt, if it does anything other than "Bad command or file name" then you have a Java VM and it's almost certainly v1.1 compatable. Snow -Experiencing the kind of pleasure that can only be achieved by listening to a 12min drum solo. From Tue Nov 9 13:59:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 09 Nov 1999 22:02:47 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17941 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 22:02:45 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 22:02:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 13771 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 22:02:44 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 22:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 26701 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 22:02:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.73) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 22:02:39 -0000 Message-ID: <006b01bf2afe$33a3dd20$497738d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:10:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 28 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Eight ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing this week. You can make vote of BLANK if you wish to get some Kudos. MN Speaker -Building a life sized model of Ann Widdecombe in his bedroom. From Tue Nov 9 19:36:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Received: (listserv 1.276); by a1; 10 Nov 1999 03:40:06 -0000 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2230 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1999 03:40:00 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 1999 03:40:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 12322 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 22:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 22:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 26687 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 22:02:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.73) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 22:02:35 -0000 Message-ID: <006a01bf2afe$328fae00$497738d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:59:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 27 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 27 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 921 You Missed A Bit 1 0 2 3 Fails 922 Another Coat Should Do It 2 1 0 3 Passes 923 Down a Peg 3 0 0 3 Passes 924 Power Shunts 3 0 0 3 Passes 925 Do I Really Have To Chew Seventy-Tw 3 0 0 3 Passes 926 Knuff off! 2 1 0 3 Passes 927 Vanillaisation 2 1 0 3 Passes 928 Dusting 2 1 0 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 921 (Kevan) - - - - - - FOR AGA - AGA 922 (Kevan) - - - - - - FOR PAS - FOR 923 (Kevan) - - - - - - FOR FOR - FOR 924 (Kevan) - - - - - - FOR FOR - FOR 925 (Kevan) - - - - - - FOR FOR - FOR 926 (Snow) - - - - - - FOR FOR - PAS 927 (Snow) - - - - - - FOR FOR - PAS 928 (Snow) - - - - - - FOR FOR - PAS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - 924 924 - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - 926 926 - 923 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - 921 925 - 924 Mrs Trellis - - - - - - 925 - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 15 0 8 3 0 29 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 15 0 8 3 0 29 Halved 7 4 1 0 14 FOR votes +12 +0 +0 +0 +6 AGAINST votes -2 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 Awards +3 +0 +0 +0 +6 This week +13 +4 +2 +0 +21 Final 11 10 0 0 20 0 8 3 0 35 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - Kevan (Power Shunts) CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - Snow (Knuff off!) ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) Snow -Picking the mushrooms and olives off the pizza. From Tue Nov 16 14:27:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.285); by a1; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:35 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13779 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 22:30:33 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 30578 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 22:30:21 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 5598 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 22:30:20 -0000 Received: from a070-07-02.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (195.166.140.70) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:20 -0000 Message-ID: <000401bf3082$28ca6de0$468ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:22:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 28 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 28 Year 3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 20 0 8 3 0 35 Halved - - - - 10 0 4 1 0 17 Voted BLANK +2 +2 Final - - - - 10 - 6 1 0 19 MN Speaker -Whoever invented mental aritmetic should be killed. From Tue Nov 16 14:27:14 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.285); by a1; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:41 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28069 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 22:30:37 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 29185 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 22:30:23 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 5600 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 22:30:21 -0000 Received: from a070-07-02.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (195.166.140.70) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 22:30:21 -0000 Message-ID: <000501bf3082$29691ee0$468ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:15:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Twenty-Nine ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal - Clear amendments [Enactment] Rule 0.4.X - Clear Amendments. A Proposal to Amend a Rule must fully quote the entire section of the rule in its 'before' and 'after' states, such that potential voters are given a clear idea exactly what is being changed. Proposers are encouraged to include commentary on the change, explaining why the change is necessary and what, if any, side effects might result from the change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal - Metamorphosis [Amendment] In Rule 1.9.6 (Kafka Sinkholes), replace "all of eir non-Black, non-Metallic Tokens are converted to Black Tokens" with "all of eir Tokens are converted to Black Tokens, on a one-for-one basis". { Making it a lot harsher, since the current version is maybe a little underpowered for the amount of time and effort it takes to set up. That nobody's yet pulled one off is probably a sign of something. And while I'm here, I might as well clarify the any-to-Black ratio, since it's arguably a bit unclear. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal - Man The Barricades [Action] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Barricading] Post 1.x.x 1Bu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Player may perform the Action "[Barricading]" to render their Home Station unassailable - until the end of the Actioning Player's next Turn, no Player may perform the "[Rent to]" or "[Toll to]" Action, if it would target the Actioning Player. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal - Clamp of the Eco-Warrior [Amendment] Change the second paragraph Rule 1.4.41 (The Green Clamp) from:- At the end of any Turn of a Player carrying a Green Clamp, if that Player has sufficient Tokens to perform a "[Recycling]" Action, but has not performed such an Action this Turn, eir Turn is Illegal. to:- At the end of any Turn of a Player carrying a Green Clamp, if that Player has not performed the "[Recycling]" Action, eir Turn is Illegal. { Recycling allows Possessions to be mulched, now, so this really needs changing. If Recycling is actually impossible, one can always Pass. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal - Washing [Multiple] { More petty cleaning. } In Rule 2.14.2 - Limited Actions remove all references to singularities { Singularities no longer exist. } -------------------- In Rule 1.1.2 - A New Game replace "Normal Game" with "Vanilla Game" in this paragraph. This New Game may be a Normal Game (using only the 1.x Mornington Crescent Rules), or a Special Rules Game (using one or more 2.x Mornington Crescent Rules, in addition to those of the Normal Game). Such a Game type is specified when the Speaker starts that Game. -------------------- In Rule 1.1.12 - Order of Play Rewrite number of times a Player follows the same Player to number of times any Player follows the same Player -------------------- In Rule 1.3.1 - Taking a Turn Replace the phrase unless this is the first Turn of the Game, this posting will be a copy of the previous Player's Turn, with appropriate alterations. with unless this is the first Turn of the Game, this posting will be a copy of the previous Player's GSD, with appropriate alterations. and reword * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin with "{Comment:" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington Crescent. to * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin with "{" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington Crescent. { Bringing the Rules into line with how we play. } ------------------ In Rule 1.4.16 - Playing with Food { Rule 1.4.18 - The Emporium says all this in a nice table. } Remove the following items: * Chocolate Bar Chocolate Bars count as Small, Edible Possessions. and Marmalade Sandwiches count as Edible Possessions. and British Rail Coffees count as Possessions. and * Lukewarm Burger Lukewarm Burgers count as Edible Possessions. and Overpriced Baguettes count as Edible Possessions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal - Wordings [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.1 - Token Gesture Change the last sentence of: The Token Cost of any Action shall, where applicable, reflect the nature of the Action and the extent of its effect. The nature of the Action shall be reflected in the colour of Token required and the extent shall be reflected in the number of Tokens required. The type of Actions the different Token Colours should apply to shall be as follows: to The following list shows what type of Action each Token should be used as payment for: { * Black - Move Actions (those which only affect the position or movement of the Actioning Player's Piece) I don't like the original wording, but my alternative isn't much better. } MN Speaker -I become strangely non-committal and start to hit people. From Tue Nov 16 21:25:20 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.285); by a1; 17 Nov 1999 05:28:48 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25121 invoked from network); 17 Nov 1999 05:28:46 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 1999 05:28:46 -0000 Received: from opus (p415-105.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.219.105]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA09547 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:28:44 +0100 Message-ID: <009b01bf30bc$82bd6b60$69db52c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <000501bf3082$29691ee0$468ca6c3@snow> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:26:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Did we do away with proposal numbers? : Proposal - Clear amendments [Enactment] : Nice : : Proposal - Metamorphosis [Amendment] : Ouch! Stinkholes! : : Proposal - Man The Barricades [Action] : : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- : Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- : [Barricading] Post 1.x.x 1Bu : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- : : A Player may perform the Action "[Barricading]" to render their Home : Station unassailable - until the end of the Actioning Player's next : Turn, no Player may perform the "[Rent to]" or "[Toll to]" Action, if it : would target the Actioning Player. This cripples Pachisi Crescent, if getting a Blue a Turn is possible. : : Proposal - Clamp of the Eco-Warrior [Amendment] : Nice : : Proposal - Washing [Multiple] : Sure : : Proposal - Wordings [Amendment] : Not bad, but why? Ole From Dunx Wed Nov 17 05:27:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.285); by a1; 17 Nov 1999 13:31:27 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24623 invoked from network); 17 Nov 1999 13:31:24 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 1999 13:31:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 26284 invoked by uid 85); 17 Nov 1999 13:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 17 Nov 1999 13:31:24 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 9:31:24 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Reactive Behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello all. I'd like to announce my reactivation as of the beginning of Week 30, or next Tuesday as it is also known. In other words, I shan't be Voting on the Week 29 Proposals but will try to submit a number of Proposals for consideration next Week. I won't join any Games just yet until I've reacquainted myself with the ruleset. As for the Speakership... well, Snow seems to be doing a splendid job, so unless he's itching to divest himself of the Speaker trousers I'll leave them with him for the moment. Looking forward to playing again after too long an absence... -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Wed Nov 17 15:28:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 17 Nov 1999 23:31:54 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4797 invoked from network); 17 Nov 1999 23:20:08 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 1999 23:20:08 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA21299; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:20:05 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma021093; Thu, 18 Nov 99 09:19:46 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:19:46 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:19:12 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Reactive Behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:31 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > I'd like to announce my reactivation as of the beginning of Week 30, or > next Tuesday as it is also known. In other words, I shan't be Voting on > the Week 29 Proposals but will try to submit a number of Proposals for > consideration next Week. Excellent news! Welcome back, and take it easy. Although I've been enjoying the games we've been playing, it'll be nice to have more than three people in some of them. Mind you, with Kevan seemingly poised in game 13, you might be able to step into a new game (another Finsbury Option, anyone?). > As for the Speakership... well, Snow seems to be doing a splendid job, so > unless he's itching to divest himself of the Speaker trousers I'll leave > them with him for the moment. I agree. Having seen several speakers in various Nomic games, I've come to realise that each one brings a different methodology to the game. Not that this is a euphemism for "Snow's been doing a bad job" - he's been just as good as any Speaker, and it's not a job that is easy or quick. I certainly can't see any reason for him to give it up... Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Nov 18 10:15:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:31 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31859 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:08 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 12820 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:07 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 10573 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.53) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:06 -0000 Message-ID: <003501bf31f1$4217d240$357b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <199911171331.IAA29067@g...> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:12:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Reactive Behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Hello all. Hi. > I'd like to announce my reactivation as of the beginning of Week 30, or > next Tuesday as it is also known. In other words, I shan't be Voting on the > Week 29 Proposals but will try to submit a number of Proposals for > consideration next Week. > > I won't join any Games just yet until I've reacquainted myself with the > ruleset. OK. > As for the Speakership... well, Snow seems to be doing a splendid job Thankyou. >, so > unless he's itching to divest himself of the Speaker trousers I'll leave > them with him for the moment. I'm quite happy with it at the moment, as long as no one else objects I'll carry on for a bit. Snow -I saw Ken Campbell at the theatre last night. Very bizarre From Thu Nov 18 10:15:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:33 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14865 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:09 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 22960 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:08 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 10579 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.53) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:07 -0000 Message-ID: <003601bf31f1$42d073e0$357b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000501bf3082$29691ee0$468ca6c3@snow> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:15:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Proposal - Clear amendments [Enactment] > A Proposal to Amend a Rule must fully quote the entire section of the rule > in its 'before' and 'after' states I suppose "section" is sufficiently vague that the Proposer can use eir judgment how much needs to be quoted, without enforcing excessive amounts of Ruleset being included in Proposals. > Proposal - Metamorphosis [Amendment] OK > Proposal - Man The Barricades [Action] > A Player may perform the Action "[Barricading]" to render their Home > Station unassailable - until the end of the Actioning Player's next > Turn, no Player may perform the "[Rent to]" or "[Toll to]" Action, if it > would target the Actioning Player. It took me a while make sense of this; There is some ambiguity over the "Actioning Player" and it could be better worded generally. On the other hand I'm not sure about whether it's really needed. > Proposal - Clamp of the Eco-Warrior [Amendment] Fine. Snow -"It's a nice day for a white wedding. It's a nice day to starrrrrrrrrrrt again." From Thu Nov 18 10:15:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:33 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14869 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:10 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 13948 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 10557 invoked from network); 18 Nov 1999 18:18:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.123.53) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Nov 1999 18:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <003301bf31f1$40d8e9a0$357b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <000501bf3082$29691ee0$468ca6c3@snow> <009b01bf30bc$82bd6b60$69db52c3@opus> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:28:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Proposal - Clear amendments [Enactment] Ole: > Did we do away with proposal numbers? Bother, I've done it again and sent out two different versions. I appear to have uploaded the correct version to the website. This version just misses the Proposal numbers and is in a slightly different order. I've also set up the Voting Booth correctly on my second attempt. > : Proposal - Wordings [Amendment] > : > Not bad, but why? No important reason; the current wording is just a little fuzzy. Snow -Making a note to stop listening to the radio while doing Week-end stuff. From Mon Nov 22 05:57:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 22 Nov 1999 14:01:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 31622 invoked from network); 22 Nov 1999 14:01:20 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 1999 14:01:20 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.26] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 1999 14:01:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:01:17 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <81bibd$aeps@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000501bf3082$29691ee0$468ca6c3@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Proposal - Clear amendments [Enactment] > > Rule 0.4.X - Clear Amendments. > > A Proposal to Amend a Rule must fully quote the entire section of the rule > in its 'before' and 'after' states, such that potential voters are given a > clear idea exactly what is being changed. Proposers are encouraged to > include commentary on the change, explaining why the change is necessary and > what, if any, side effects might result from the change. Mm, I tend to try and do this anyway, if I think my Proposal is going to look rather mysterious or ambiguous otherwise. I don't think we really need to *force* people to do this (I presume that the above rule will be interpreted as "Any Proposal which doesn't do this shall be rejected"?); if your Proposal is so badly worded that everyone mistakes it for a bad one and shoots it down, it's your loss. The danger of a bad Proposal being mistaken for a good one is a small issue, I suppose, but likely to be noticed by a Voter during the Week, or - worst case - by the Speaker as e updates the Ruleset, in which case e's likely to make a note of the previous wording and take corrective action as soon as possible. But this hasn't ever happened yet. > Proposal - Washing [Multiple] > > replace "Normal Game" with "Vanilla Game" in this paragraph. Hm. To bring it in line with other things, or just because you don't like the term "Vanilla"? > * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin > with "{" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no > way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington > Crescent. > > { > Bringing the Rules into line with how we play. > } I'd been meaning to fix that for a while, actually. Well done. The rest of these minor fixes seems fine, anyway, and mostly long overdue. Kudos. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Nov 22 15:11:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 22 Nov 1999 23:15:12 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25073 invoked from network); 22 Nov 1999 23:15:06 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 1999 23:15:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 12969 invoked from network); 22 Nov 1999 23:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 22 Nov 1999 23:15:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 19257 invoked from network); 22 Nov 1999 23:15:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.111.92) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 22 Nov 1999 23:15:04 -0000 Message-ID: <004701bf353f$6067f260$5c6f38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <81bibd$aeps@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:08:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Proposal - Washing [Multiple] > > > > replace "Normal Game" with "Vanilla Game" in this paragraph. > > Hm. To bring it in line with other things, or just because you don't > like the term "Vanilla"? Other way round, I'm trying to standardise around "Vanilla Game". Snow -Wishing a slow and painful death on whoever thought of the tar archive format and eternal damnation on anyone who has written an untarer that doesn't untar things. From Tue Nov 23 01:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 23 Nov 1999 09:32:18 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 13231 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 09:32:12 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 09:32:12 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 1999 09:32:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:32:04 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <81dmuk$npbm@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <004701bf353f$6067f260$5c6f38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 29 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > > replace "Normal Game" with "Vanilla Game" in this paragraph. > > > > Hm. To bring it in line with other things, or just because you don't > > like the term "Vanilla"? > > Other way round, I'm trying to standardise around "Vanilla Game". I was being... ironic. Yes. That was it. Oh dear. Bring more coffee, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Nov 23 13:17:15 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:45 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18222 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 21:20:41 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 13889 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 21:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.183) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:38 -0000 Message-ID: <001401bf35f8$9094dde0$b78ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:21:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 30 Proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 335 - Oi, Achilles [Multiple] Throughout the Ruleset, replace the word "Indestructable" with "Undroppable". { Because they're not bloody Indestructable. } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -Placing a rabbit on top of a lava lamp. From Tue Nov 23 13:17:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:47 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18235 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 21:20:41 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 13893 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 21:20:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.183) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:39 -0000 Message-ID: <001501bf35f8$91877b40$b78ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:21:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 29 Voting Results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 29 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 929 Clear amendments 1 1 1 3 Fails 930 Metamorphosis 1 1 1 3 Fails 931 Clamp of the Eco-Warrior 2 1 0 3 Passes 932 Washing 2 1 0 3 Passes 933 Wordings 1 1 1 3 Fails 934 Man The Barricades 1 1 1 3 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 929 (Paul) - - - - AGA - - PAS - FOR 930 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - - AGA - FOR 931 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - - FOR - FOR 932 (Snow) - - - - FOR - - FOR - PAS 933 (Snow) - - - - FOR - - AGA - PAS 934 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - - FOR - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - 932 - - - - 931 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 10 0 6 1 0 19 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 10 0 6 1 0 19 Halved 5 3 0 0 9 FOR votes +4 +0 +1 +0 +3 AGAINST votes -2 +0 -1 +0 -1 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +0 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +0 +2 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +6 +0 +4 +0 +9 Final 11 10 0 0 11 0 3 4 0 18 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Automating rabbits. From Tue Nov 23 13:17:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:54 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18368 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 21:20:53 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 13920 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 21:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.183) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 21:20:50 -0000 Message-ID: <001601bf35f8$97c820e0$b78ca6c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:13:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: London calling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm going to London for a few days. I should remain connected so I won't go inactive. But if you don't hear from me until next Tuesday you'll know technology has conspired against me. Snow -Hampton Hampster's hamstering hampers hamster hamstring. From Tue Nov 23 15:40:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.286); by a1; 23 Nov 1999 23:44:17 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28952 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 23:44:14 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 23:44:14 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA23653; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:44:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa23526; Wed, 24 Nov 99 09:44:00 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:44:00 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:43:57 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/l-nomic-d/ Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: , List-Owner: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: London calling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:13 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > I'm going to London for a few days. I should remain connected so I won't > go inactive. But if you > don't hear from me until next Tuesday you'll know technology has conspired > against me. Are you meeting up for the Pilgrimage? 12:30 on Saturday at the Head of Steam near Euston, so I'm told. > -Hampton Hampster's hamstering hampers hamster hamstring. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Nov 24 06:50:47 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by a1; 24 Nov 1999 14:54:18 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1806 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1999 14:54:09 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 1999 14:54:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 31122 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1999 14:27:03 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 24 Nov 1999 14:27:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 28784 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1999 14:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.158) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 24 Nov 1999 14:27:02 -0000 Message-ID: <006c01bf3687$f0869560$9e7838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:11:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: London calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay wrote: > On Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:13 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > I'm going to London for a few days. I should remain connected so I won't > > go inactive. But if you > > don't hear from me until next Tuesday you'll know technology has conspired > > against me. > > Are you meeting up for the Pilgrimage? 12:30 on Saturday at the Head of > Steam near Euston, so I'm told. I shall avoid it like the plague :-) Snow -Hairy Harry halibut hurrys haughtily home. From Wed Nov 24 19:21:13 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 25 Nov 1999 03:24:45 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20571 invoked from network); 25 Nov 1999 03:24:35 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 1999 03:24:35 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA19070; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:24:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019012; Thu, 25 Nov 99 13:24:11 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:24:11 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:24:08 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: London calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:11 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > Are you meeting up for the Pilgrimage? 12:30 on Saturday at the Head > > of Steam near Euston, so I'm told. > > I shall avoid it like the plague :-) I'm sorry to be obtuse, but any particular reason? Or am I missing some subtle form of hyperbole? Babula, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Snow Thu Nov 25 16:06:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 26 Nov 1999 00:10:14 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11629 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1999 00:10:12 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 00:10:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 21128 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1999 00:10:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?212.56.95.214?) (212.56.95.214) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 00:10:10 -0000 From: Snow To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:10:25 +0000 X-Mailer: EPOC32 Email Version 1.50 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: London calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <81kj56+pve8@eGroups.com> PaulWay: On Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:11 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > = > Are you meeting up for the Pilgrimage? 12:30 on Saturday at the Head > > = of Steam near Euston, so I'm told. >=20 > I shall avoid it like the plague :-) > I'm sorry to be obtuse, but any particular reason? I'm just shy. In addition I don't drink, which seems to be a key part of = pilgrimages. Snow -Feeding a Christmas cake.= From Dunx Fri Nov 26 01:19:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 26 Nov 1999 09:22:54 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23349 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1999 09:22:23 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 09:22:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 1558 invoked by uid 85); 26 Nov 1999 09:22:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 09:22:20 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 5:22:20 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: London calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <81ljhe+e36r@eGroups.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:10:25 +0000 Snow wrote: > PaulWay: > > On Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:11 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > > Are you meeting up for the Pilgrimage? 12:30 on Saturday at the Head > > > of Steam near Euston, so I'm told. > > > > I shall avoid it like the plague :-) > > > I'm sorry to be obtuse, but any particular reason? > > I'm just shy. In addition I don't drink, which seems to be a key part of > pilgrimages. Aw, now there's sad. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Sun Nov 28 16:00:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 29 Nov 1999 00:03:58 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20901 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 00:03:46 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 00:03:46 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA00367; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:03:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029995; Mon, 29 Nov 99 10:03:22 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:03:22 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:03:17 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: London calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, November 26, 1999 10:10 AM, Snow [SMTP:snow@s...] wrote: > PaulWay: > > I'm sorry to be obtuse, but any particular reason? > I'm just shy. In addition I don't drink, which seems to be a key part of > pilgrimages. OK, this is the last time I'll say anything - I don't want to pester you or anything. But they're a nice bunch really (so I'm told), and probably quite happy to have a non-imbiber around regardless. As for shy, you can probably find a companion in, er, the quiet girl whose name I can't remember who always seems to be shy of the camera. Friend of Yer Mom's, or something. Whatsername. Tip of my tongue. Anyway, enough of this. You probably don't enjoy being needled about attending anyway, so we'll leave it there. > Snow > -Feeding a Christmas cake. Ah, fattening it up for Christmas, eh? Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Dunx Mon Nov 29 08:29:10 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 29 Nov 1999 16:32:43 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25488 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 16:32:35 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 16:32:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 16709 invoked by uid 85); 29 Nov 1999 16:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 16:32:34 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:32:34 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 30 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <81u9rb+4fpk@eGroups.com> I've put this in a Voting Comment, but I thought I'd best point it out publically as well. > Proposal 335 - Oi, Achilles [Multiple] > Throughout the Ruleset, replace the word "Indestructable" with > "Undroppable". > { Because they're not bloody Indestructable. } Actually, no - granted that of the Indestructable Possessions all the Clamps are both Indestructable and Undroppable, but neither the Drone Stick nor the Podume of Infinite Darkness are Undroppable. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Mon Nov 29 09:07:46 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 29 Nov 1999 17:11:19 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 4169 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 17:11:05 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.com (10.1.2.81) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 17:11:05 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.5] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 1999 17:11:05 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:10:59 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <81uc33$piuq@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <81u9rb+4fpk@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 30 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > { Because they're not bloody Indestructable. } > > Actually, no - granted that of the Indestructable Possessions all the > Clamps are both Indestructable and Undroppable, but neither the Drone Stick > nor the Podume of Infinite Darkness are Undroppable. Gnh. Yes. I knew there was a reason why we weren't using "Undroppable". "Un-Discardable" is the crux of the issue, really, but it's very hard finding a word that fits. (I'm sure I remember "Cursed" being touted, jokingly.) "Persistent", perhaps? Voting against his own Proposals again, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Nov 29 14:02:52 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 29 Nov 1999 22:06:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 5648 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 22:05:23 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 22:05:23 -0000 Received: from [24.95.45.142] (dhcp9542072.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.72]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA29978 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:01:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:08:28 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 30 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> > { Because they're not bloody Indestructable. } >> >> Actually, no - granted that of the Indestructable Possessions all the >> Clamps are both Indestructable and Undroppable, but neither the Drone >Stick >> nor the Podume of Infinite Darkness are Undroppable. > >Gnh. Yes. I knew there was a reason why we weren't using "Undroppable". >"Un-Discardable" is the crux of the issue, really, but it's very hard >finding a word that fits. (I'm sure I remember "Cursed" being touted, >jokingly.) "Persistent", perhaps? "Cursed" sounds good to me! :) --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Tue Nov 30 07:15:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 30 Nov 1999 15:19:08 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 9726 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 15:18:55 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 15:18:55 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.120] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 1999 15:18:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:18:52 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <820pss$o8c9@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Best Player of the Millennium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think was this probably suggested quite a long time ago, but now seems about the time (if not entirely too late) to mention it again; how about a swift Game under Tournament Rules to determine the finest Mornington Nomic player of the twentieth century? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Tue Nov 30 08:47:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 30 Nov 1999 16:50:50 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18699 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 16:50:33 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 16:50:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 6535 invoked by uid 85); 30 Nov 1999 16:50:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 16:50:33 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:50:33 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Best Player of the Millennium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <820v9a+f3p5@eGroups.com> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:18:52 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > I think was this probably suggested quite a long time ago, but now > seems about the time (if not entirely too late) to mention it again; > how about a swift Game under Tournament Rules to determine the finest > Mornington Nomic player of the twentieth century? An excellent plan! I'm up for it. Something which I was going to put through as a Proposal was the idea of freezing rulesets for a particular Game; this seems particularly sensible for a Tournament, so that all the Players are operating on a level playing field. What do you think? And of course it may not, actually, be too late - it depends what definition of the Millenium one wants to use. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Tue Nov 30 08:53:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 30 Nov 1999 16:57:07 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23248 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 16:56:46 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 16:56:46 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.122] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 1999 16:56:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:56:42 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <820vka$o542@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <820v9a+f3p5@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Best Player of the Millennium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Something which I was going to put through as a Proposal was the idea of > freezing rulesets for a particular Game; this seems particularly sensible > for a Tournament, so that all the Players are operating on a level playing > field. > > What do you think? Mm, possibly, but with most amendments these days being along the lines of making things less broken, or bringing them more in line with how we've been playing them, I can't see anything that drastic coming along. (And if it did, we'd suddenly have to cope with the idea of only using the new rules in whichever games started after it was introduced, and - I fear, for myself at least - forget which was what. And have to have several different copies of the Ruleset lying around.) > And of course it may not, actually, be too late - it depends what > definition of the Millenium one wants to use. Careful, there. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Nov 30 13:38:02 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 30 Nov 1999 21:41:34 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5322 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 21:41:11 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 21:41:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 12573 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 21:41:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.39) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 21:41:08 -0000 Message-ID: <000701bf3b7b$8ee2aee0$277a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:42:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-One ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 936 - Flavour of the Month [Multiple] [Amendment: Something A Bit More Interesting] Amend Rule 2.0.0 (Definition of Normality) to add the following paragraph at the beginning: This Volume describes variations the standard rules, and shall be known as the Raspberry Ripple Rules. [Amendment: Something With A Bit More Variety] Amend Rule 3.0.0 (Turin '57 Convention) so that the first paragraph reads as follows: Mornington Crescent may be played on other transport networks than the London Underground. This Volume describes these different networks, and shall be known as the Mint Choc Chip Rules. [Amendment: Something With A Bit More Tang] Amend Rule 4.0.0 (Non-MC Games) such that its first paragraph reads thus: Other games than MC may be played on the London Underground (or equivalent network). In these games, having a Piece end a Turn at Mornington Crescent does not constitute a Win. This Volume describes these different approaches, and shall be known as the Cheese and Onion Rules. [End of Flavour of the Month] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 937 - Typo Frenzy! [Multiple] [Amendment: Volume Control] Amend the last paragraph of Rule 0.1.2 (Terms of Reference) such that it reads thus: The term "Mornington Crescent" in this Ruleset refers to, according to context, either the game described in Volumes 1 to 4, or the London Underground Station of the same name. The term "Game" in this Ruleset can mean either "Mornington Nomic" or "Mornington Crescent", but this should be clear from context. { Comment: was "... described in Rules 1.*.*", which is out of date. } [Amendment: This Time It's Personal] Amend Rule 0.7.1 (Points of Order) such that its second paragraph reads thus: The email containing the Point of Order should have a subject line of 'MN: Point of Order'. If it does not have this subject line, the Point of Order may be considered invalid. { Comment: eliminating an inappropriate personal pronoun (was "... your Point of Order"). } [Amendment: Volume Control II] Amend Rule 1.1.2 (A New Game) such that its second paragraph reads thus: This New Game may be a Normal Game (using only the Vanilla Mornington Crescent Rules), or a Special Rules Game (using one or more sets of Mornington Crescent Rules from Volumes 2-4, in addition to those of the Normal Game). Such a Game type is specified when the Speaker starts that Game. { Comment: again, using obsolete section numbering. } [Amendment: Comments Required] Amend Rule 1.3.1 (Taking A Turn) such that the penultimate bullet point reads thus: * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin with "{Comment:" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington Crescent, but may be required to clarify aspects of Play. { Comment: some comments are actually needed now. } [Amendment: Impediments Blocked] Amend Rule 1.7.6 (Straddling Nancy) such that its penultimate paragraph reads thus: Although not considered to pass through any intervening Stations, the Straddle Destination must be a valid Move with respect to Blocks and other such impediments. { Comment: removinf an obsolete reference to the old Impediments section of Rule 1.5.0.} [Amendment: Twelve?!] Amend Rule 1.7.47 (Gold Rush) such that its last paragraph reads thus: After submitting eir GSD, the Actioning Player should roll a 295-sided die to determine the location of the lode - the next Player to take eir Turn should look up the Station which has a Venbacker Number matching the die roll; at the start of eir Turn, any gaps in that Station's Token Stack are replaced with Gold Tokens (a new Stack being created if none exists). { Comment: removing last reference to the twelve stack limit.} [Amendment: Courier Wave] Amend Rule 1.11.2 (Three-Point Courier) such that its third paragraph reads thus: While a Player is carrying a Parcel, e may not make any Special Moves , and may not perform Actions which would alter eir Piece position. { Comment: removing obsolete reference to Move Validity checks. } [Amendment: Off the Map] Amend Rule 1.17.1 (The Underground Map) such that the map URL reads as follows: http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/london/map.html { Comment: it's moved. } [End of Typo Frenzy!] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 938 - The Third Side [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) such that its second paragraph is replaced by the following text: Two Stations are within Walking Distance if they are adjacent to each other on the Map, or if they share the same name but are not co-located, or if a line drawn between them would form the third side of a triangle with a Station adjacent to both and the Stations do not share a Line Segment (eg Queensway to Bayswater, or Rickmansworth to Croxley would be valid; Northolt to Pervial or Croxley to Northwood would not be valid). In addition, the following Stations are within Walking Distance of each other:- { Comment: a presumption of geographical proximity, if you like. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 939 - Focus Group [Multiple] [Amendment: Under the Microscope] Add the following possession to the table in Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium): | Magnifier | 6 Br | | [Action: Foskdyke's Magnifier] Action: [Magnify] Phase: Pre-Move Duration: 20 mins Cost: none If a Player is carrying a Magnifier Possession, e may perform the Pre-Move Action of "Magnify". This has the effect of loosening Fosdyke Requirements on Actions operating on a particular Station, Player, Token Stack or Line played during that Turn such that a single Fosdyke Requirment component may have its index increased by one. For example - * (S0) => (S1) - the Player need only be adjacent rather than co-located * (S0,L0) => (S1,L0) or (S0,L1) - the Player may be at an adjacent Station on the same Line, or on a different Line at the same Station. [End of Focus Group] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 940 - Louder Actions [Amendment] { Comment: one or two Actions seem to have dropped out of the Actions table. The following extra lines have been drawn from the original Proposals. } Add the following lines to the Action table in the appropriate alphabetic locations: [Declension] Pre 1.7.58 varies [fFrobisher fFlourish] Neut 1.7.59 5Bu [Speed Craze] Pre 1.8.13 3Gr [Craze Sidestep] Pre 1.8.13 3Bk [Terminate Craze] Post 1.8.13 [Double-Shunting Post 1.10.2 1Re to ] { Comment: that last one is probably the most surprising omission. Also, no cost is mentioned in the Proposal so I've taken it as being a single red just as the Shunt was made to be eventually. } In addition, move the entry for [Topple] to its rightful place after [Toll to ]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 941 - Your Freem Clamp Glows Black For A Moment [Multiple] { Only one from me, again, this week. Busy times. } Throughout the Ruleset, replace the words "Indestructable" and "Undroppable" with "Cursed". { Well, why not? } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -Singing the Lord's Prayer to the tune of Smack my Bitch Up. From Tue Nov 30 13:38:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 30 Nov 1999 21:41:38 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5331 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 21:41:12 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 21:41:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 12586 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 21:41:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.39) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 21:41:11 -0000 Message-ID: <000801bf3b7b$90c04880$277a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:23:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 30 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 30 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 935 Oi, Achilles 1 1 3 3 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 935 (Kevan) - AGA - - PAS - AGA AGA - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 10 0 0 11 0 3 4 0 18 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 10 0 0 11 0 3 4 0 18 Halved 5 5 1 2 0 9 FOR votes +0 +1 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +0 +2 +2 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +5 +0 +5 +5 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +9 +0 +9 +9 +0 +7 Final 11 14 0 0 5 0 10 11 0 16 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Great fires of goats freed Tony from modem. From <1508oa@m...> Wed Dec 1 02:05:54 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 01 Dec 1999 10:09:28 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30672 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 10:09:08 -0000 Received: from gateway.niels.brock.dk (HELO mail.fiol.brock.dk) (194.182.88.2) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 10:09:08 -0000 Received: from KT-216E.fiol.brock.dk (pca097.fiol.brock.dk [172.16.20.97]) by mail.fiol.brock.dk (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA14945 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:18:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199912011118.MAA14945@m...> Comments: Authenticated sender is <1508oa@m...> From: "Ole Andersen" <1508oa@m...> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:05:04 +0000 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000701bf3b7b$8ee2aee0$277a38d4@snow> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 30 Nov 99, MN Speaker wrote about MN: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals: > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > MORNINGTON NOMIC > > Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-One > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Proposal 936 - Flavour of the Month [Multiple] > Aaaargh! > Proposal 937 - Typo Frenzy! [Multiple] > Nice. > > Proposal 938 - The Third Side [Amendment] > ... > valid; Northolt to Pervial or Croxley to Northwood would not be valid). Not bad. I assume the Speaker will change Pervial to Perivale. > > Proposal 939 - Focus Group [Multiple] > Nice. > > Proposal 940 - Louder Actions [Amendment] > Nice. > Proposal 941 - Your Freem Clamp Glows Black For A Moment [Multiple] > Cursed Clamps.... reminds me that I need to call together my AD&D group soon. Ole From Wed Dec 1 14:50:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 01 Dec 1999 22:54:23 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 880 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:03 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 18345 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:01 -0000 Message-ID: <012e01bf3c4e$e7be7e80$f37838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <199912011118.MAA14945@m...> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:10:43 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > Cursed Clamps.... reminds me that I need to call together my AD&D > group soon. Aardvark Deployment & Detonation? Snow -Reporting Ole to the RSPCA. From Wed Dec 1 14:50:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 01 Dec 1999 22:54:24 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6896 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:04 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 18347 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:02 -0000 Message-ID: <012f01bf3c4e$e8665740$f37838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <820oe9$q121@eGroups.com> <99113021511000.00584@l...> <007501bf3bb4$cef3cee0$e781fea9@opus> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:33:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: French Boycott (from MN-B) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote: > Dunx answered Kevan: > > : On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, you wrote: > : > Hm. Two moves in as many months. Time, perhaps, to draw this game to a > : > close and play something fresh? > : > : Suits me. > : > : Czech Variant? > : > > Well, I'd go for anything, but how about Short, Fast Solipsism? Unless someone Buzzes Kevan's win in Game 13 then there are 2 new games to be made. And there was talk of a tournament as well. Not sure this might be overdoing it with the amount of activity recently, but we'll see. I think we need a quick game on the go. How about Free-for-all-Pachisi, Free-for-all-Solipsism or Baker Street (assuming a simpler game will result in faster moves)? Czech Variant has been waiting on the back-burner for quite a long time as well. Snow -Using too much brain power trying to catch ostriches. From Wed Dec 1 14:50:50 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 01 Dec 1999 22:54:24 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 915 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:06 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 18349 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:04 -0000 Message-ID: <013001bf3c4e$e9408aa0$f37838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <820v9a+kp03@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:43:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Best Player of the Millennium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said: > On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:18:52 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > > I think was this probably suggested quite a long time ago, but now > > seems about the time (if not entirely too late) to mention it again; > > how about a swift Game under Tournament Rules to determine the finest > > Mornington Nomic player of the twentieth century? > > An excellent plan! I'm up for it. Hmm, maybe. > Something which I was going to put through as a Proposal was the idea of > freezing rulesets for a particular Game; this seems particularly sensible > for a Tournament, so that all the Players are operating on a level playing > field. > > What do you think? Ug, no thanks. Snow -Talking to a Jaffa Cake From Wed Dec 1 14:50:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 01 Dec 1999 22:54:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 929 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:07 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 18351 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 22:54:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 22:54:05 -0000 Message-ID: <013101bf3c4e$e9f00480$f37838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000701bf3b7b$8ee2aee0$277a38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:49:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 936 - Flavour of the Month [Multiple] > > [Amendment: Something A Bit More Interesting] > Amend Rule 2.0.0 (Definition of Normality) to add the following paragraph > at the beginning: > > This Volume describes variations the standard rules, and shall be known > as the Raspberry Ripple Rules. Known where? You're not even changing the title. And why not "variations [to] the Vanilla Ruleset"? > Proposal 937 - Typo Frenzy! [Multiple] > [Amendment: Comments Required] > Amend Rule 1.3.1 (Taking A Turn) such that the penultimate bullet point > reads thus: > > * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin > with "{Comment:" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no > way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington > Crescent, but may be required to clarify aspects of Play. We just got rid of that "{Comment:" thing. > [Amendment: Off the Map] > Amend Rule 1.17.1 (The Underground Map) such that the map URL reads as > follows: > > http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/london/map.html There is also http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/map.jpg. The patchwork map leaves holes on my computer. > Proposal 938 - The Third Side [Amendment] > > Amend Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) such that its second paragraph is > replaced by the following text: > > Two Stations are within Walking Distance if they are adjacent to each > other on the Map, or if they share the same name but are not co-located, I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can two Stations have the same name without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? > or if a line drawn between them would form the third side of a triangle > with a Station adjacent to both and the Stations do not share a Line > Segment Is Line Segment the right term for this? > Proposal 939 - Focus Group [Multiple] Looks fine. > Proposal 940 - Louder Actions [Amendment] Good. > Proposal 941 - Your Freem Clamp Glows Black For A Moment [Multiple] > Throughout the Ruleset, replace the words "Indestructable" and "Undroppable" > with "Cursed". I'd rather have "Undiscardable", but this will do. Snow -Paying someone to have an anti-capitalist riot for him. From Wed Dec 1 22:30:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 06:33:37 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6933 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 06:33:33 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 06:33:33 -0000 Received: from opus (p450-29.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.157]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA03578 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:33:32 +0100 Message-ID: <017801bf3c8f$08b47fa0$eb0ffea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <199912011118.MAA14945@m...> <012e01bf3c4e$e7be7e80$f37838d4@snow> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:26:46 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow quoted me: : > Cursed Clamps.... reminds me that I need to call together my AD&D : > group soon. : : Aardvark Deployment & Detonation? : : Snow : -Reporting Ole to the RSPCA. Drat. Foiled again... Ole From Wed Dec 1 22:30:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 06:33:40 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7042 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 06:33:35 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 06:33:35 -0000 Received: from opus (p450-29.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.157]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA03590 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:33:33 +0100 Message-ID: <017901bf3c8f$0974c260$eb0ffea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <000701bf3b7b$8ee2aee0$277a38d4@snow> <013101bf3c4e$e9f00480$f37838d4@snow> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:37:57 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : > Proposal 938 - The Third Side [Amendment] : > : > Amend Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) such that its second paragraph is : > replaced by the following text: : > : > Two Stations are within Walking Distance if they are adjacent to each : > other on the Map, or if they share the same name but are not co-located, : : I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can two Stations have the same name : without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? I assume there is a reason why Paddington is both a two-blob Interchange and an ordinary Station. As to co-location: Who would want to Walk from Sloane Square (DS) to Sloane Square (CL)? : : > or if a line drawn between them would form the third side of a triangle : > with a Station adjacent to both and the Stations do not share a Line : > Segment : : Is Line Segment the right term for this? I think it is, in the sense that the intended new Walk is across the split of a junction. Ole From Dunx Thu Dec 2 04:38:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 12:42:14 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 634 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 12:41:41 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 12:41:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 23953 invoked by uid 85); 2 Dec 1999 08:41:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 08:41:40 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 4:41:39 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <825pf6+ne5b@eGroups.com> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:49:51 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > > Proposal 936 - Flavour of the Month [Multiple] > > > > [Amendment: Something A Bit More Interesting] > > Amend Rule 2.0.0 (Definition of Normality) to add the following > paragraph > > at the beginning: > > > > This Volume describes variations the standard rules, and shall be > known > > as the Raspberry Ripple Rules. > > Known where? You're not even changing the title. Volume 1 is titled "Mornington Crescent" not "Vanilla Rules". > And why not "variations [to] the Vanilla Ruleset"? Because I took the original wording from the wrong copy of the Ruleset! I feel a fool. > > Proposal 937 - Typo Frenzy! [Multiple] > > > [Amendment: Comments Required] > > Amend Rule 1.3.1 (Taking A Turn) such that the penultimate bullet point > > reads thus: > > > > * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin > > with "{Comment:" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no > > way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington > > Crescent, but may be required to clarify aspects of Play. > > We just got rid of that "{Comment:" thing. Again... > > [Amendment: Off the Map] > > Amend Rule 1.17.1 (The Underground Map) such that the map URL reads as > > follows: > > > > http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/london/map.html > > There is also http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/map.jpg. The patchwork map > leaves holes on my > computer. True, but I was just seeking to update the existing reference. > > Proposal 938 - The Third Side [Amendment] > > > > Amend Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) such that its second paragraph is > > replaced by the following text: > > > > Two Stations are within Walking Distance if they are adjacent to > each > > other on the Map, or if they share the same name but are not > co-located, > > I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can two > Stations have the same name > without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? I have two words for you: Shepherd's Bush! (as it happens I Proposed Walking in the first place too, so it is my wording) > > or if a line drawn between them would form the third side of a > triangle > > with a Station adjacent to both and the Stations do not share a Line > > Segment > > Is Line Segment the right term for this? Yes. Definition (b) in Rule 1.5.4. Having said that, this definition doesn't specifically mention that a Line Segment in this context should not include a change of Line Direction, but then I think the examples given clarify the point sufficiently. > > Proposal 940 - Louder Actions [Amendment] > > Good. I nearly included this in Typo Frenzy; I'm glad I didn't now. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Thu Dec 2 05:36:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 13:40:19 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9479 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 13:40:03 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 13:40:03 -0000 Received: from opus (p456-68.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.196]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA13033 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:40:00 +0100 Message-ID: <031901bf3cca$9dbaf940$eb0ffea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <80p8n4$b14r@eGroups.com> <01b401bf2fb4$9584f280$23852fc3@opus> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:22:28 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Manoeuvre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Long Game, I did: : Ole : [LV-3] Charing Cross (BK) [Catching Pigeon] [Recycling] : [Declaring the Easter Gambit] ... : 0:05 -1 Gr Easter Gambit: Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy : Station : -1 Bu . : -1 Br . : -1 Si ... to the Gambit (all three discarded) Please add: Easter Gambit (1Bu, 1Br, 1Si) Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy Station to Rule 1.18.2 Ole From Thu Dec 2 14:41:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 22:45:14 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3136 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 22:44:53 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 22:44:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 3783 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 22:35:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.52) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 22:35:42 -0000 Message-ID: <00fc01bf3d15$7d2be720$347838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000701bf3b7b$8ee2aee0$277a38d4@snow> <013101bf3c4e$e9f00480$f37838d4@snow> <017901bf3c8f$0974c260$eb0ffea9@opus> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:50:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > Snow wrote: > > : > Proposal 938 - The Third Side [Amendment] > : > > : > Amend Rule 1.7.10 (Walk the Walk) such that its second paragraph is > : > replaced by the following text: > : > > : > Two Stations are within Walking Distance if they are adjacent to each > : > other on the Map, or if they share the same name but are not > co-located, > : > : I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can two > Stations have the same name > : without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? > > I assume there is a reason why Paddington is both a two-blob Interchange and > an ordinary Station. > > As to co-location: Who would want to Walk from Sloane Square (DS) to Sloane > Square (CL)? Someone on on Sloane Square (DS) wanting to attack someone else on Sloane Square (CL) with an LV over 3, Green Park and S.Ken are Blocked and they don't have a Construction Hat. Snow -Forgetting how to program C++. From Thu Dec 2 14:41:40 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 22:45:14 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21359 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 22:44:55 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 22:44:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 3790 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 22:35:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.52) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 22:35:43 -0000 Message-ID: <00fd01bf3d15$7de488c0$347838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <80p8n4$b14r@eGroups.com> <01b401bf2fb4$9584f280$23852fc3@opus> <031901bf3cca$9dbaf940$eb0ffea9@opus> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:50:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Manoeuvre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the Long Game, I did: > > : Ole : [LV-3] Charing Cross (BK) [Catching Pigeon] [Recycling] > : [Declaring the Easter Gambit] > ... > : 0:05 -1 Gr Easter Gambit: Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy > : Station > : -1 Bu . > : -1 Br . > : -1 Si ... to the Gambit (all three discarded) > > Please add: > > Easter Gambit (1Bu, 1Br, 1Si) > Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy Station > > to Rule 1.18.2 OK. I'll add it with next Week's Props. Snow -Puzzled. From Thu Dec 2 14:41:41 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 22:45:15 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21393 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 22:44:57 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 22:44:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 3795 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 22:35:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.120.52) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 22:35:44 -0000 Message-ID: <00fe01bf3d15$7e84c060$347838d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <825pf6+6c5b@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:32:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: > > I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can two > > Stations have the same name > > without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? > > I have two words for you: Shepherd's Bush! Wow, I didn't know that. I bet it will do something nasty to MCMapper. Snow -Thinking about rewriting MCMapper in WFC. From Thu Dec 2 15:38:29 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 23:42:04 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29336 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 23:41:40 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 23:41:40 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA29189; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:41:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmac28913; Fri, 3 Dec 99 09:41:13 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:41:12 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:41:01 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Manoeuvre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, December 03, 1999 6:50 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > Ole wrote: > > Please add: > > Easter Gambit (1Bu, 1Br, 1Si) > > Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy Station > > to Rule 1.18.2 > > OK. I'll add it with next Week's Props. > Er, your Snowness, I believe Rule 1.18.2 states: The Speaker shall update this rule to include any new gambit declared using a legal Manoeuvre Declaraction action. So it doesn't need a proposal at all (AFAICS) Ta, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Dec 2 15:40:36 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 23:44:11 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30695 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 23:43:49 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 23:43:49 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA00937; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:43:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma000575; Fri, 3 Dec 99 09:43:19 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:43:19 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:43:03 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, December 03, 1999 8:33 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > Dunx wrote: > > > I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can > > > two > > > Stations have the same name > > > without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? > > > > I have two words for you: Shepherd's Bush! > > Wow, I didn't know that. I bet it will do something nasty to MCMapper. > Two more: Edgware Road! MCMapper was originally in Java, yes? Do you think you could find some language that compiles an executable for Windows x86 architecture? Flapjacks, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Dec 2 15:46:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 02 Dec 1999 23:49:58 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15412 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 23:49:55 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 23:49:55 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA06294; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:49:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma006150; Fri, 3 Dec 99 09:49:43 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:49:43 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:49:39 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, I'm interested to find out people's opinions about winning. Winning is too hard, too easy, or just right? What do you think is the best way to win? The most difficult? What have you used? What other non-implemented ways can you think of? Which variants do you think are easier to win? Which are harder? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Dunx Thu Dec 2 22:20:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 03 Dec 1999 06:24:03 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20500 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 06:23:33 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 06:23:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 32499 invoked by uid 85); 3 Dec 1999 06:23:29 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO localhost.localdomain) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 06:23:29 -0000 From: Dunx To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:20:25 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] References: Message-Id: <99120306230700.00590@l...> Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Manoeuvre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 02 Dec 1999, you wrote: > On Friday, December 03, 1999 6:50 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > Ole wrote: > > > Please add: > > > Easter Gambit (1Bu, 1Br, 1Si) > > > Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy Station > > > to Rule 1.18.2 > > > > OK. I'll add it with next Week's Props. > > > Er, your Snowness, I believe Rule 1.18.2 states: > > The Speaker shall update this rule to include any new gambit declared using > a legal Manoeuvre Declaraction action. > > So it doesn't need a proposal at all (AFAICS) I don't think that's what he meant - I read it as just doing the update at the same time. While we're on the subject f non-Proposal updates, the "last updated" information at the top of each Volume is stale. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig From Fri Dec 3 05:48:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 03 Dec 1999 13:51:59 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 28511 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 13:49:01 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 13:49:01 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dunx@d... Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 1999 13:49:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 05:48:51 -0800 From: "Dunx" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <828ho3$94ld@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.80 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay wrote: > I'm interested to find out people's opinions about winning. In some ways I think winning is too hard, in other ways it is pitched about right. My main concern about winning at the moment is that there is only the one way. To expand a little - as has been expressed before (by your good self) the MN ruleset mechanics are very well balanced: Gold tokens are not abundant, and there are many ways of spending them apart from playing MC. My view about winning being too hard is based, if anything, on the paucity of Gold gathering opportunities which do not involve huge amount of hoop-leaping. But - what is good about the Gold token thing is that it is fair on other Players. The only attempt we've had at an alternative win strategy was my Charge matching idea, which was generally considered too obscure to predict. Indeed, I get the feeling that my win by that method was met with irritation as much as approbation. I'm also terribly impressed that we've generall avoided the 'Monopoly syndrome' where the sole aim of the game is to collect tokens. > What other non-implemented ways can you think of? Well, I've already tried introducing one and it didn't work. What I would suggest, however, is that any further attempts be cast in some way other than as a way to collect Golds. The nice thing about Charge is that it was an attribute of Piece which was manipulated by moving around... I suppose what was wrong with it was that its changes were actually too unpredictable to anyone but the player whose Charge it was. Hmm... Paul - how about your Snoods or Alignment ideas from years ago? We could have a handedness index for a Player, which changes when the alignment or Snoodness of their Move is non-neutral. If handedness exceeds a certain threshold then the Player can open MC (or we could call it Spin). Or we could just that with Charge - if the absolute value of Charge exceeds a certain threshold then MC can be played for free or at a discount. Lots to do, yet. From Fri Dec 3 15:39:53 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 03 Dec 1999 23:43:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30098 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 23:42:54 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 23:42:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 12643 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 23:42:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.95.8) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 23:42:52 -0000 Message-ID: <000f01bf3de8$09a6da20$085f38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <99120306230700.00590@l...> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:43:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Manoeuvre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said: > On Thu, 02 Dec 1999, you wrote: > > On Friday, December 03, 1999 6:50 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > > Ole wrote: > > > > Please add: > > > > Easter Gambit (1Bu, 1Br, 1Si) > > > > Holy Station -> A-Z Station -> another Holy Station > > > > to Rule 1.18.2 > > > > > > OK. I'll add it with next Week's Props. > > > > > Er, your Snowness, I believe Rule 1.18.2 states: > > > > The Speaker shall update this rule to include any new gambit declared using > > a legal Manoeuvre Declaraction action. > > > > So it doesn't need a proposal at all (AFAICS) > > I don't think that's what he meant - I read it as just doing the update at the > same time. Yes, that's what I meant. > While we're on the subject f non-Proposal updates, the "last updated" > information at the top of each Volume is stale. Really, which ones? I just did a quick check and couldn't see anything wrong, but I'm often mistaken. I know the Table of Contents is out of sync across the different files, but the last updated bit looks alright. I shall fix the TOC when I next update the Ruleset. Snow -Probably wrong. From Fri Dec 3 15:39:55 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.289); by f7; 03 Dec 1999 23:43:30 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31123 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 23:42:55 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 23:42:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 12645 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 23:42:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.95.8) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 23:42:53 -0000 Message-ID: <001001bf3de8$0a565400$085f38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:37:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 31 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay said: > On Friday, December 03, 1999 8:33 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > Dunx wrote: > > > > I know this is the original wording not the Proposer's, but how can > > > > two > > > > Stations have the same name > > > > without being the same Station? And why not co-located ones? > > > > > > I have two words for you: Shepherd's Bush! > > > > Wow, I didn't know that. I bet it will do something nasty to MCMapper. > > > Two more: Edgware Road! > > MCMapper was originally in Java, yes? Do you think you could find some > language that compiles an executable for Windows x86 architecture? Is this one of those ironics Kevan was talking about? Or is there some reason you can't run Java VMs? I can find lots of languages that make Win32 EXEs, but the only one I program is ISO C++ which lacks any GUI facilities. Snow -Probably holding the wrong end of the stick. From Sun Dec 5 07:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 05 Dec 1999 15:36:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 3074 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 15:35:48 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 15:35:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 29901 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 15:35:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 15:35:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 21429 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 15:35:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.66) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 15:35:46 -0000 Message-ID: <000d01bf3f36$4b0b9f60$427738d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <828ho3$94ld@eGroups.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:23:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx: > PaulWay wrote: > > I'm interested to find out people's opinions about winning. > > In some ways I think winning is too hard, in other ways it is pitched > about right. > > My main concern about winning at the moment is that there is only the > one way. Is this so bad? > I'm also terribly impressed that we've generall avoided the 'Monopoly > syndrome' where the sole aim of the game is to collect tokens. Monopoly doesn't have tokens and the sole aim is to bankrupt your opponents. > > What other non-implemented ways can you think of? > > Well, I've already tried introducing one and it didn't work. > > What I would suggest, however, is that any further attempts be cast in > some way other than as a way to collect Golds. I would disagree. The good thing about collecting Golds is that it provides a consistant measure of a person's position in the game. > The nice thing about > Charge is that it was an attribute of Piece which was manipulated by > moving around... I suppose what was wrong with it was that its changes > were actually too unpredictable to anyone but the player whose Charge > it was. I tend to think the problem with Charge is that it's too predictable. Unless something happens to change a Player's charge other than Moving (eg a Shunt) then it will always be the same at the same Station. Different routes to a Station should produce different Charges. Special Moves should not change Charge. Changing line should have some effect...... Once some system has been introduced to make charges more interesting then more rewards can be given to those that achieve higher or lower charges. Some form of enhanced electroplating maybe. At the moment Charge is just a burden to calculate and has little affect on the Game. Snow -"XML is sentient" claims cardboard. From Sun Dec 5 07:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 05 Dec 1999 15:36:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7036 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 15:35:50 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 15:35:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 19450 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 15:35:49 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 15:35:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 21431 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 15:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.66) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 15:35:48 -0000 Message-ID: <000e01bf3f36$4bd509e0$427738d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:29:19 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay said: > > I'm interested to find out people's opinions about winning. I'm all for it. > Winning is too hard, too easy, or just right? > > What do you think is the best way to win? The most difficult? What have > you used? I haven't really played enough and haven't yet won. > What other non-implemented ways can you think of? How about ending your Turn at Queensway? I assume we need to keep MC as the winning station, and we need to prevent normal Turns from ending there. The Closed Station thing seems the best way to do this. Now the issue seems to be how do we Open MC. I personally can see nothing wrong with collecting Golds for this. An idea that has just occured to me is a Beetle Run (I think this is what it is called). In a BR everyone takes it in turns to throw a dice, for a 6 they get a body, for a 5 they get a head, 4 is a leg.... The first person to build a whole beetle wins. Until a year or two ago MC was closed for rebuilding. Getting a Gold might allow you to buy some track or a platform. A silver would get you a lift. A Bronze a turnstyle. Once you have collected all the pieces for the Station you can put them together and it Opens. Maybe we could allow track to be ripped up from another Station if the Charge is high enough or something. This would require some extensive rewriting of the Ruelset and might work better as a variant (though I feel we have enough of these already). On the whole I'm happy with the current system though. Snow -Setting his trousers on fire to achieve a higher state of consciousness. From Sun Dec 5 16:47:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 00:50:57 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16525 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 00:50:33 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 00:50:33 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA22062; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:50:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma021925; Mon, 6 Dec 99 10:50:08 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:50:08 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:50:07 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, December 03, 1999 11:49 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > I'm also terribly impressed that we've generall avoided the 'Monopoly > syndrome' where the sole aim of the game is to collect tokens. That is a good point; I think of it as the Tom Sawyer principle. (His church instigated a ticket system for learning bits of the Scripture, and you traded several low-value tickets for higher ones. Tom Sawyer started trading tickets for things other people wanted, and in a short space of time he'd collected the 'first prize' - without knowing one line of the actual requirements). > Hmm... Paul - how about your Snoods or Alignment ideas from years ago? > We could have a handedness index for a Player, which changes when the > alignment or Snoodness of their Move is non-neutral. If handedness > exceeds a certain threshold then the Player can open MC (or we could > call it Spin). OK, how's this. The original idea was that each person has two Snoods - Left and Right. Each left-handed turn you make (VXHL to PMLC is a right-handed turn, PMLC to STJP via VCTR is a right-handed turn, and BANK to LVST is a left-handed turn) adds one counter (i.e. index) to the Left Snood, and so forth. The journey VCTR -> GRPK -> PICC -> LCSQ -> TCRD is R|-|L|L, giving a total of one counter in the left Snood. Whenever the Left Snood is equal to the Right Snood, they are both zeroed and they are called Aligned, otherwise the Snoods are Vagrant. Now, since you can't have a home station in zone 1 or within six stations of MC, the only way to get to MC with Snoods Aligned is to be already on the Northern Line, specifically the High Barnet branch. Perhaps if you could win by getting to MC with Snoods Aligned and at least one line change performed? We'd have to look at what would happen to the Snoods with shunting, straddling and wild moves, but it looks interesting, anyway. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Sun Dec 5 17:13:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 01:17:34 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32053 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 01:17:15 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 01:17:15 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA01744; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:17:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma001594; Mon, 6 Dec 99 11:16:42 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:16:41 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:16:38 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking about things, I believe Snow's right. Golds are an excellent way to ascertain how well someone's going toward winning. 'Quick wins' - ways, like Charge Opening, where you instantly win - are, I believe, looked on as a bit of a cheat, mainly because, short of intimately studying everyone else's move (which most of us don't really have the time for), they're almost impossible to prevent. What occurs to me is that these 'Quick wins' should give, say, Silver tokens, which can be traded up to Gold. For that I'd say have four 'Banks' - Piccadilly, Embankment, Bank and King's Cross St. Pancras - to give people more opportunity of converting up to Golds without being the immediate focus of Shunting attention. (Bank is, IMHO, very pressured by this threat at this point in time). In light of that, I have a better idea of the Snoods win thing. If you Align your Snoods, you gain tokens using the following table: Counters in snood before alignment / Token gained 1-2 / 1 Black 3-4 / 1 Blue 5-6 / 1 Silver 7- / 1 Gold Because you only Align your snoods when they're equal, it means that you can rack up a a fair bit of Vagrancy - so the Gold isn't impossible to get. To prevent people doing several loops (OXFC -> PICC -> LESQ -> TCRD -> OXFC = 4 left counters) and then 'unwinding' to gain an equal number of the opposite handed counter, you could say that only line segments previously uncounted in your move contribute counters. (Make sense?) So if you were going to get a gold, you'd have to execute at least four moves. And that's just for one gold. While I think the move 'handedness' is a fairly intuitive concept, it obviously has to be codified to make sense. For instance, GRPK -> CHAX is a left-handed move; but if you've come from HPKC, is it? If you change from the BK to the MT at BKST, and your journey is from MRLB to GPST, have you continued straight or have you done a left-hander (due to the MT's bend from BKST to GPST?). And so on. But, anyway, what do people think? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Sun Dec 5 21:54:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 05:58:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24955 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 05:57:37 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 05:57:37 -0000 Received: from opus (p444-23.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.151]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA04757 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:57:35 +0100 Message-ID: <00a201bf3fae$acdbab40$eaf1fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:13:55 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: : For instance, GRPK -> CHAX is a : left-handed move; but if you've come from HPKC, is it? If you change from : the BK to the MT at BKST, and your journey is from MRLB to GPST, have you : continued straight or have you done a left-hander (due to the MT's bend from : BKST to GPST?). And so on. Green Park to CharingX is right-handed if it goes through Piccadilly Circus. I think handedness should be counted only at Interchanges, and possibly at junctions. More or less, as 'if you were driving on a road like this, would you stick out your hand to indicate your turning?' Ole From Mon Dec 6 05:17:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 13:21:11 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23172 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 13:20:46 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 13:20:46 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 1999 13:20:42 -0000 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 05:20:40 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82gd78$kgss@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.81 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Winning is too hard, too easy, or just right? I sometimes feel that winning a game can be a little on the difficult side, with numerous little tricks that can scupper a successful player who was blind to a certain pitfall (Gapminding, Charge Spirals, Bock, etc.), but maybe that's the best way for it to be, so long as no individual impediment is over-powerful. (As it stands, I think they're all expensive enough to warrant inclusion; that only a player thoughtful enough to stockpile Tokens and set emself up is able to perform the scuppering, and a cautious enough opponent will have enough Tokens to pay off the impediment anyway.) > What do you think is the best way to win? The most difficult? What have > you used? I forget, really, particularly when the rules change beneath one's feet. I think I tend to go for a miscellaneous collection of Golds, depending on whatever seems easiest at the time - I rarely commit myself to a single plan of attack, preferring to see what other player start doing, and doing what I can to work around that. I suppose I tend more to the defensive than confrontational, only Shunting if I'm in danger of being Shunted myself, or if it's a clear way to foil someone's plans. There was one game, I forget which, where I tried the Mount of Olives Gambit, getting six Blues which could be easily changed to the requisite three Golds at Bank; I remember being a bit too blind to the rest of the game, though, and was skewed offside by the attacks of other Players. The way it should be, really; I think any carefully-plotted scheme is going to be vulnerable to a bit of the unexpected. I suppose Team Games differ, though, with their need for some discussion; a plan of attack is likely to arise very early on, however vague. It was interesting that Capture the Flag very quickly became a matter of obscure rule interpretation, the victory conditions being so simple. Best and trickiest ways to win, though? I don't think there's a lot in it, really - having dampened down the overly-strong victory methods of days past, nothing seems to have jumped to the top of the pile. There was a lot of hoo-hah over Pigeon-catching, a while back, but it's yet to be abused at all. And quite a few approaches remain untried, which I intend to have a stab at at some point. Piano-playing, Token generating and Electroplating, perhaps more than any others. > Which variants do you think are easier to win? Which are harder? Well, as we saw, Chateau d'Eau is extremely irritating to play. Capture the Flag seems to be quite quick and simple, but not necessarily easy. Team Games tend to be swung by people dropping in and out of the game, which perhaps needs addressing. As for the rest, I can't say I've noticed that much effect on gameplay. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Mon Dec 6 06:07:39 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 14:11:16 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24737 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 14:10:53 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 14:10:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 2305 invoked by uid 85); 6 Dec 1999 14:10:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 14:10:53 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:10:53 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <82gg64+iosr@eGroups.com> Snow wrote: > Dunx: > > I'm also terribly impressed that we've generall avoided the 'Monopoly > > syndrome' where the sole aim of the game is to collect tokens. > > Monopoly doesn't have tokens and the sole aim is to bankrupt your > opponents. Tokens, money... whatever. Whilst I agree that the stated aim of Monopoly is bankrupting your opponents, this is achieved by collecting all the money. I apologise for the misrepresentation though. The point I was making was that, although specific tokens are needed to open MC, the aim of the game as a whole is not the collection of tokens. > > The nice thing about > > Charge is that it was an attribute of Piece which was manipulated by > > moving around... I suppose what was wrong with it was that its changes > > were actually too unpredictable to anyone but the player whose Charge > > it was. > > I tend to think the problem with Charge is that it's too predictable. > Unless something happens to > change a Player's charge other than Moving (eg a Shunt) then it will > always be the same at the same > Station. Different routes to a Station should produce different Charges. > Special Moves should not > change Charge. I agree, and I cannot remember why it was changed. I think it may have been based on the interpretation that even during a Special Move the Piece is still considered to travel along the Lines, as opposed to the 'teleportation' interpretation. > Changing line should have some effect...... Good idea. > Once some > system has been introduced to > make charges more interesting then more rewards can be given to those > that achieve higher or lower > charges. Some form of enhanced electroplating maybe. > > At the moment Charge is just a burden to calculate and has little affect > on the Game. I would tend to agree, to be honest, although it is not a very large burden - there was more point when you could Charge Open MC. Time for a Proposal, methinks. After you, sir. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Dunx Mon Dec 6 06:29:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 14:33:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32520 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 14:32:46 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 14:32:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 6567 invoked by uid 85); 6 Dec 1999 14:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 14:32:46 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:32:46 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <82ghf3+qcsi@eGroups.com> PaulWay wrote: > Dunx wrote: > > Hmm... Paul - how about your Snoods or Alignment ideas from years ago? > > OK, how's this. [a clearly worded explanation expediently snipped] > Now, since you can't have a home station in zone 1 or within six stations > of > MC, the only way to get to MC with Snoods Aligned is to be already on the > Northern Line, specifically the High Barnet branch. Perhaps if you could > win by getting to MC with Snoods Aligned and at least one line change > performed? That seems fair, or at least worth examining. > We'd have to look at what would happen to the Snoods with shunting, > straddling and wild moves, but it looks interesting, anyway. I would suggest having Snoods align without bonus on a Special Move, and equalise on Shunt much as Charge does already. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Mon Dec 6 06:52:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 14:56:01 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18485 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 14:55:56 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 14:55:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 1999 14:55:54 -0000 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:55:46 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82gipi$2fer@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <82gg64+iosr@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.81 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precious little time available to say anything, sadly, but... > > At the moment Charge is just a burden to calculate and has little affect > > on the Game. > > I would tend to agree, to be honest, although it is not a very large burden > - there was more point when you could Charge Open MC. *cough* Electroplating! *cough* Such was a more than reasonable replacement for Charge Opening, I thought - only one Gold can be collected per Turn, so that other Players have time to react, and the critical Charge is dependent on the Charge of the other Players, rather than being an arbitrary number. If a fixed number is preferred (making the Action harder for other Players to prevent - a good or bad thing, I'm not sure), though, a simple "If a Player has a charge above sixty or below negative sixty" amendment should do it. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Mon Dec 6 07:04:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 06 Dec 1999 15:08:32 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29047 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 15:08:30 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 15:08:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 15313 invoked by uid 85); 6 Dec 1999 15:08:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 15:08:30 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:08:29 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Winning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <82gjhg+ubhr@eGroups.com> On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:55:46 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > Precious little time available to say anything, sadly, but... > > > > At the moment Charge is just a burden to calculate and has little > affect > > > on the Game. > > > > I would tend to agree, to be honest, although it is not a very large > burden > > - there was more point when you could Charge Open MC. > > *cough* Electroplating! *cough* Good point, well made. Apologies. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Tue Dec 7 15:13:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 07 Dec 1999 23:17:07 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10432 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 23:13:45 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 23:13:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 22656 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 23:13:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 23:13:43 -0000 Message-ID: <001c01bf4108$9dcf1000$f38ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:04:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 31 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 31 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 936 Flavour of the Month 0 2 3 3 Fails 937 Typo Frenzy! 5 0 0 3 Passes 938 The Third Side 1 2 2 3 Fails 939 Focus Group 2 2 1 3 Passes 940 Louder Actions 5 0 0 3 Passes 941 Your Freem Clamp Glows Black For A 4 1 0 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 936 (Dunx) - PAS - - AGA - AGA AGA - PAS 937 (Dunx) - FOR - - FOR - FOR FOR - FOR 938 (Dunx) - PAS - - AGA - FOR AGA - PAS 939 (Dunx) - PAS - - AGA - FOR FOR - PAS 940 (Dunx) - FOR - - FOR - FOR FOR - FOR 941 (Kevan) - FOR - - PAS - FOR FOR - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - 939 - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - 937 - 937 937 - 937 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - 941 - 941 Mrs Trellis - - - - - - 938 939 - 936 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 14 0 0 5 0 10 11 0 16 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 14 0 0 5 0 10 11 0 16 Halved 7 2 5 5 0 8 FOR votes +13 +4 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes -6 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own -6 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +2 +2 +2 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +5 +0 +0 +5 +0 +0 Awards +3 +3 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +13 +11 +4 +9 +0 +5 Final 11 20 0 0 13 0 9 14 0 13 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - Dunx (Typo Frenzy!) ICMS Clarity (+3) - Kevan (Your Freem Clamp Glows Black For A Moment) Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Playing DOOM on his S5. From Tue Dec 7 15:13:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 07 Dec 1999 23:17:09 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20561 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 23:13:47 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 23:13:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 22662 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 23:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 23:13:44 -0000 Message-ID: <001d01bf4108$9ecad520$f38ca6c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:08:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Two ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 942 - Denial in the Lion's Den [Multiple] [Amendment: Half and Half] Amend Rule 1.18.4 (Deny Everything!) such that it's second from last paragraph reads thus: Such a Denial Action may only be played after the Player who is attempting to complete the Manoeuvre has played the penultimate Move in that Manoeuvre ie there is only one Move remaining before completion. The Denying Player gains the reward for completing the Manoeuvre instead. { Comment: there's actually very little incentive for Denials at the moment, especially for some of the more trivial Gambit rewards (anything with but a single Token really isn't worth it). } [Enactment, Section 2.6: A Likely Story] A Player may not Deny a Manoeuvre played by a Team mate. { Comment: ... particularly if the Denying Player is mysteriously ineffective in eir Denial. } [End of Denial in the Lion's Den] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 943 - Calling Dr. Spin [Multiple] Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call The Call of a Station is equal to the number of non-overlapping Line Segments emanating from the Station. For instance, the Call of Camden Town is 4, while Baker Street has a Call of 10, and Brixton has a Call of 1. The Call of a Ghost Station is 0. Rule 1.17.x - Spin Doctors The Spin of a Move is equal to the LV of the Move multiplied by the Call of the Station Moved to. The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to that Station. Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its Call. [No, I haven't the faintest idea about what to do with these terms, but that may come.] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 944 - A New Kind of Sucker [Multiple] [Amendment: Beats As It Sweeps...] Add the following possession to the table in Rule 1.4.18 (The Emporium): | Vacuum Cleaner | 6 Br | Large, Electrical | [Action: Vizhke's Voracious Vacuum] Action: [Vacuuming ] Phase: Post-Move Duration: 15 mins Cost: none If a Player is carrying a Vacuum Cleaner Possession, e may perform the Post-Move Action of "Vacuuming ", where "" is any Station which the Actioning Player's Piece has passed through, or started or ended eir Move at, and which contains a Token Stack. This has the effect of picking up all the tokens in the nominated token stack in one go. The [Vacuuming] Action may not be performed in the same Turn as a [Claiming] Action. Underground Stations are not, despite the best efforts of the staff, particularly clean places. When a Vacuum Cleaner is used, it will pick up various detritus alongside the Tokens desired and eventually it will fill up. To indicate this fact, each time that the Action is played an asterisk is appended onto the Vacuum Cleaner possession used in the luggage rack - these asterisks indicate how full the Vacuum Cleaner is, and as such are transferred with the Vacuum Cleaner should its ownership change. Once the Vacuum Cleaner has three asterisks next to it, it is considered full and is destroyed. [End of A New Kind of Sucker] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 945 - Anti-MC [Special Ruleset] { Comment: I've assumed that this variant should go in Volume 4, since its goal is quite manifestly at variance with the aim of winning by playing MC. } Rule 4.x.1 - Own Goals Allowed In an Anti-MC Game, the Winner is the last Player to Move to Mornington Crescent. If a Player Moves to MC, e has lost. Eir Piece is removed from the board, eir name is parenthesised in the Token Table, all eir possessions are discarded, and e takes no further part in the Game. { Comment: the name remains in the token table to allow points to be tallied more easily at the end. } Rule 4.x.2 - Accept No Substitutes Once a Game has begun, no further Players may join without the consent of all other Players in that Game. After any Player has lost, no further Players may join under any circumstances. Rule 4.x.3 - Open House Mornington Crescent is considered to be open, so that Opening MC does not need to be played in order to Move there. All Station, Lines and Line Segments are considered to be Open at all times of day, and no Lines are considered to be Under Construction. Rule 4.x.4 - Passage to East India Players may not Pass or Farkle unless forced to do so by circumstances beyond their control. In other words, if a legal Move is open to them, then they must play it. Rule 4.x.5 - Grrr! Aaaargh! All aggressive Actions, whether direct or indirectly in their effect on Players, have their costs reduced by two tokens. Rule 4.x.6 - Please Leave Your Seven League Boots Outside Players may not play the Action of [Home] other than on eir first Move. They may also not play the Action of [Wild]. Rule 4.x.7 - Droning Off There is no Drone. [End of Anti-MC] MN Speaker -"I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it has, in some way, obstructed interstate commerce." -- J. Edgar Hoover From Tue Dec 7 15:13:33 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 07 Dec 1999 23:17:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20599 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 23:13:52 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 23:13:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 22667 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 23:13:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (195.166.140.243) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 23:13:50 -0000 Message-ID: <002001bf4108$a242e4e0$f38ca6c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:09:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Gubbins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Web Host was moving house yesterday and as a result my email from eGroups is lost. If anything happened in the Game Lounges that the Speaker ought to know about it will need to be reposted or otherwise communicated to me. In Prop 940 the gain of the [Declension] Action is given as "varies". I'm not sure what this is for other than being the same as the original Prop. There were also a few "an Cursed"s about after Prop 941. I made a couple of Points of Order to myself and fixed these. Re the empty Lounges. I suggest the following games, either put your name down or suggest something different. Czech variant. Free-for-All Solipsism Snow Snow -Who was shocked to find that Manchester is actually quite nice. From Wed Dec 8 01:20:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 09:24:20 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 12486 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 09:24:01 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 09:24:01 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.24] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 1999 09:24:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 01:23:56 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82l83c$l6eg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <002001bf4108$a242e4e0$f38ca6c3@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.81 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: New Games MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Re the empty Lounges. I suggest the following games, either put your name down or suggest something > different. > > Czech variant This one seems perhaps the most intimidating of all the Special Rulesets, but what the hell. I'm going to be sitting around quite a bit over Christmas anyway, I expect. > Free-for-All Solipsism Seems like an amusing idea. Count me in. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Wed Dec 8 02:36:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 10:40:02 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6265 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 10:38:15 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 10:38:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 31076 invoked by uid 85); 8 Dec 1999 10:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 10:38:11 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 6:38:11 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: New Games MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <82lci2+a1vj@eGroups.com> On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 01:23:56 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > Re the empty Lounges. I suggest the following games, either put your > name down or suggest something > > different. > > > > Czech variant > > This one seems perhaps the most intimidating of all the Special > Rulesets, but what the hell. Well, I could hardly pass by such a gauntlet - count me in as well. (I think this is one where a board would be most useful...) > > Free-for-All Solipsism > > Seems like an amusing idea. Count me in. And me. I'm particularly intrigued by what a Dollis Hill loop would look like. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Wed Dec 8 03:28:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 11:32:36 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1621 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 11:32:28 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 11:32:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.120] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 1999 11:32:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 03:32:26 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82lfka$n06h@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <82lci2+a1vj@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This one seems perhaps the most intimidating of all the Special > > Rulesets, but what the hell. > > Well, I could hardly pass by such a gauntlet - count me in as well. Actually, how about trying a bit of a recruitment drive, and starting a game of Baker Street if we get any new Players? It might even be a helpful idea to crack open a new Game Lounge and dedicate it solely to playing friendly games of Baker Street; I suspect we're currently appearing entirely too complicated and intimidating to potential new players... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Wed Dec 8 04:27:19 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 12:30:54 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 700 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 12:30:36 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 12:30:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 10305 invoked by uid 85); 8 Dec 1999 12:30:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 12:30:36 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 8:30:36 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <82lj1u+kv0p@eGroups.com> > Actually, how about trying a bit of a recruitment drive, and starting a > game of Baker Street if we get any new Players? It might even be a > helpful idea to crack open a new Game Lounge and dedicate it solely to > playing friendly games of Baker Street; I suspect we're currently > appearing entirely too complicated and intimidating to potential new > players... Maybe we could call it the Jupitus Lounge, in honour of Phill Jupitus' maiden appearance on ISIHAC the other week. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Wed Dec 8 06:30:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 14:33:45 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10598 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 14:33:37 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 14:33:37 -0000 Received: from opus (p428-018.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.142.18]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA30742 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:33:35 +0100 Message-ID: <011101bf4189$174228c0$5757fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <82lci2+r88r@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:55:16 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: New Games MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote (quoting Kevan (quoting Snow)): : > > Re the empty Lounges. I suggest the following games, either put your : > name down or suggest something : > > different. : > > : > > Czech variant : > : > This one seems perhaps the most intimidating of all the Special : > Rulesets, but what the hell. : : Well, I could hardly pass by such a gauntlet - count me in as well. Count me in, too. : : (I think this is one where a board would be most useful...) : : > > Free-for-All Solipsism : > : > Seems like an amusing idea. Count me in. : : And me. I'm particularly intrigued by what a Dollis Hill loop would : look like. Here, ditto. Ole From Wed Dec 8 06:30:09 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 14:33:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 14790 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 14:33:38 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 14:33:38 -0000 Received: from opus (p428-018.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.142.18]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA30750 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:33:37 +0100 Message-ID: <011201bf4189$17faca60$5757fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <82lfka$n06h@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:57:03 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : Actually, how about trying a bit of a recruitment drive, and starting a : game of Baker Street if we get any new Players? It might even be a : helpful idea to crack open a new Game Lounge and dedicate it solely to : playing friendly games of Baker Street; I suspect we're currently : appearing entirely too complicated and intimidating to potential new : players... Could be a nice idea. Trellis Lounge? Ole From Wed Dec 8 07:33:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 15:37:28 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 31219 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 15:33:48 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.com (10.1.2.81) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 15:33:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.121] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 1999 15:33:48 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 07:33:43 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82lton$e4t1@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <82lj1u+kv0p@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Maybe we could call it the Jupitus Lounge, in honour of Phill Jupitus' > maiden appearance on ISIHAC the other week. Is he set to become a new regular, then? It's going to be a bit odd if, six months down the road, we have a lounge named after someone who was only ever on there once. Ole's "Trellis" suggestion seems quite fitting, but risks mild confusion should we ever end up with a Trellis Special Ruleset (I've a feeling that if we had a Ruttsborough Lounge, I'd keep going in there by mistake when looking for a Ruttsborough '58 Game). I can't remember who else has guested with any regularity on the programme, myself. Paul Merton? Or am I getting confused with Just a Minute? (And I suppose the "Children's Lounge" would be counter-productively insulting...) Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Wed Dec 8 08:24:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 16:28:04 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14119 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 16:27:52 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 16:27:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 26056 invoked by uid 85); 8 Dec 1999 16:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 16:27:50 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:27:50 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <82m0uk+9u0f@eGroups.com> > > Maybe we could call it the Jupitus Lounge, in honour of Phill Jupitus' > > maiden appearance on ISIHAC the other week. > > Is he set to become a new regular, then? It's going to be a bit odd if, > six months down the road, we have a lounge named after someone who was > only ever on there once. A fair point - AFAIK, he is not set to be a regular but I suppose I was thinking of Jupitus' felicity on the programme, and the fact that he acquitted himself reasonably well in his MC game. > I can't remember who else has guested with any regularity on the > programme, myself. Paul Merton? Or am I getting confused with Just a > Minute? Mr Merton has been on, but not recently. The same goes for Stephen Fry. More recent guests have included Fred McCauley (Macauley?), Jeremy Hardy, and Sandy Toksvig. How about the Sell Lounge? Colin is, in his own way, as vital to the programme as Humph (although obviously "The Sell Lounge" sounds unnervingly like a stock market). Samantha? Sven? Maybe with one of the scorers we should modify the name - make it the Scorers' Saloon rather than a Lounge. Or even the Laser Display Board Lounge? Final suggestion, honest - since we're thinking of making this a Baker Street-specific Lounge, maybe we should call it Holmes. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Wed Dec 8 09:53:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 17:57:00 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15265 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 17:56:57 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 17:56:57 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id RAA03867 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:56:39 GMT Received: from nodnsquery(192.168.109.16) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xma003468; Wed, 8 Dec 99 17:55:19 GMT Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com with SMTP id RAA10122 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:55:18 GMT From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 88256841.00627499 ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:55:23 -0800 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <88256841.00627374.00@s...> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:54:14 -0800 Content-Disposition: inline Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be tempted out by a game of Baker Street... miKi "Kevan Davis" on 12/08/99 03:32:26 AM Please respond to l-nomic-d@eGroups.com To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com cc: (bcc: Richard M Brockie) Subject: MN: Baker Street > > This one seems perhaps the most intimidating of all the Special > > Rulesets, but what the hell. > > Well, I could hardly pass by such a gauntlet - count me in as well. Actually, how about trying a bit of a recruitment drive, and starting a game of Baker Street if we get any new Players? It might even be a helpful idea to crack open a new Game Lounge and dedicate it solely to playing friendly games of Baker Street; I suspect we're currently appearing entirely too complicated and intimidating to potential new players... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAN'T CHECK EMAIL OVER THE HOLIDAYS? Don't find out weeks later about that kickin' New Year's party. Listen to your email for free over the phone with a Collegeclub.com account. Get it now at: http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1852 -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! -- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=l-nomic-d&m=1 From Wed Dec 8 11:12:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 19:16:27 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16069 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 19:16:22 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 19:16:22 -0000 Received: from opus (p441-052.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.148.180]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA30649 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:16:20 +0100 Message-ID: <01e901bf41b0$93a6e0a0$5757fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <82m0uk+r3ga@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:21:30 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: ... : : Final suggestion, honest - since we're thinking of making this a Baker : Street-specific Lounge, maybe we should call it Holmes. : Or Sherlock? Holmes is fine by me. Ole From Wed Dec 8 13:23:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 21:27:00 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22289 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 21:26:56 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 21:26:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 10483 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 21:26:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.18) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <00af01bf41c2$d63631c0$126638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <82m0uk+r3ga@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:53:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How about the Sell Lounge? Colin is, in his own way, as vital to the > programme as Humph (although obviously "The Sell Lounge" sounds unnervingly > like a stock market). This would be my first choice > Samantha? Sven? Maybe with one of the scorers we should modify the name - > make it the Scorers' Saloon rather than a Lounge. This would be my second choice after Sell. > Final suggestion, honest - since we're thinking of making this a Baker > Street-specific Lounge, maybe we should call it Holmes. Or Practice lounge. Snow -Frolicking in the autumn mist. From Wed Dec 8 13:23:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 21:27:02 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12798 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 21:26:56 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 21:26:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 10487 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 21:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.102.18) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 21:26:50 -0000 Message-ID: <00b001bf41c2$d6eed360$126638d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <001d01bf4108$9ecad520$f38ca6c3@snow> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:21:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 943 - Calling Dr. Spin [Multiple] > > Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of non-overlapping Line > Segments emanating from the Station. What does overlapping mean in this context? > Rule 1.17.x - Spin Doctors > The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to that Station. > Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its Call. How is the Spin of a Station to be recorded after the piece has left? > [No, I haven't the faintest idea about what to do with these terms, but that > may come.] I'd rather have something to do with them before inserting them in the Ruleset. > Proposal 944 - A New Kind of Sucker [Multiple] Hmm. > Proposal 945 - Anti-MC [Special Ruleset] > Rule 4.x.5 - Grrr! Aaaargh! > > All aggressive Actions, whether direct or indirectly in their effect > on Players, have their costs reduced by two tokens. Two Tokens of the Actioning Player's choice? Snow -Did you know that the Intel 810 chipset has a built in true-random number generator? From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Wed Dec 8 14:21:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 08 Dec 1999 22:25:16 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27217 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 22:24:59 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 22:24:59 -0000 Received: from [24.95.78.241] (dhcp9542128.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.128]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA11637 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:24:45 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:28:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Dunx wrote: >... >: >: Final suggestion, honest - since we're thinking of making this a Baker >: Street-specific Lounge, maybe we should call it Holmes. >: > >Or Sherlock? >Holmes is fine by me. or even Watson... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Thu Dec 9 01:17:16 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 09 Dec 1999 09:20:54 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 7379 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 09:20:15 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 09:20:15 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.127] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 1999 09:20:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 01:20:01 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82ns81$s7jn@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00b001bf41c2$d6eed360$126638d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of non-overlapping Line > Segments emanating from the Station. Jolly good, if a little under-defined. "The Call of Morden" has fine Lovecraftian potential, regardless. > > The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to that Station. > > Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its Call. > > How is the Spin of a Station to be recorded after the piece has left? This does seem a bit too much to keep track of. Something that'd work superbly with a board game or computer game, but only serves to make things more awkward, through email. > > [No, I haven't the faintest idea about what to do with these terms, but that > > may come.] > > I'd rather have something to do with them before inserting them in the Ruleset. I don't know; it might be more interesting to define the skeleton of Call and Spin, then see what people can think of doing with it - such springboarding is perhaps a helpful path to be treading. (As Paul said in a Lounge somewhere, or possibly through private email, the idea of encouraging all Players to concentrate on a given aspect of the Ruleset seems like a positive idea, and I think this goes just as much for the implementation of new mechanics as for the repair of old ones.) > > All aggressive Actions, whether direct or indirectly in their effect > > on Players, have their costs reduced by two tokens. > > Two Tokens of the Actioning Player's choice? And how is "aggressive" defined? (Although the Token colours list Blue as "Indirectly Aggressive" and Red as "Directly Aggressive", these seem far more guidelines than methods of interpreting Actions. "Out of Knip", "Cascade Kill" and whatever else surely don't qualify as Aggressive.) > -Did you know that the Intel 810 chipset has a built in true-random number generator? Brownian motion of air particles? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Thu Dec 9 01:29:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 09 Dec 1999 09:33:36 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 14685 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 09:33:20 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 09:33:20 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 1999 09:33:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 01:33:12 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <82nt0o$p721@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00af01bf41c2$d63631c0$126638d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to cast my votes on the Lounge-naming matter... > > How about the Sell Lounge? Colin is, in his own way, as vital to the > > programme as Humph (although obviously "The Sell Lounge" sounds unnervingly > > like a stock market). > > This would be my first choice I'd forgotten Colin, carelessly. A nicely consistent suggestion. > > Samantha? Sven? Maybe with one of the scorers we should modify the name - > > make it the Scorers' Saloon rather than a Lounge. > > This would be my second choice after Sell. It'll be a bit odd if we don't use a surname, really. And while "Scorers' Saloon" cleanly separates it from the other Lounges, it doesn't really suggest what the Saloon is for. (And could well attract entirely the wrong sort of clientele.) > > Final suggestion, honest - since we're thinking of making this a Baker > > Street-specific Lounge, maybe we should call it Holmes. > > Or Practice lounge. "Holmes" sounds perfect, really. Probably a good idea to go with that and to save "Sell" for the day when we feel the need for another normal Lounge. Can we get the Baker Street Rules put up in a prominent place on the Web page, incidentally, Snow? Maybe added to the FAQ somewhere? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Thu Dec 9 06:51:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 09 Dec 1999 14:55:09 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22369 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 14:55:07 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 14:55:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p460-18.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.136.146]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA10988 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:55:05 +0100 Message-ID: <029101bf4255$42015460$c7e4fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <001d01bf4108$9ecad520$f38ca6c3@snow> <00b001bf41c2$d6eed360$126638d4@snow> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:52:38 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > Proposal 943 - Calling Dr. Spin [Multiple] : > : > Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call : : > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of non-overlapping Line : > Segments emanating from the Station. : : What does overlapping mean in this context? To pick an example: Surrey Quays (EL) has 7 Line Segments emanating from it: to Shoreditch, to Whitechapel, to Shadwell, to Wapping, to Rotherhithe, to New Cross and to New Cross Gate. The first 5 of these overlap on Surrey Quays-Rotherhithe, so they are counted as just one. Hence, the Call of Surrey Quays is 3. Kevan answered Snow: : > > The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to : that Station. : > > Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its : Call. : > : > How is the Spin of a Station to be recorded after the piece has left? : : This does seem a bit too much to keep track of. Something that'd work : superbly with a board game or computer game, but only serves to make : things more awkward, through email. We would probably only want to keep track of Spin in a number of cases. Permanent Spin Tracking would be killing, I guess. : : > > [No, I haven't the faintest idea about what to do with these terms, : but that : > > may come.] : > : > I'd rather have something to do with them before inserting them in : the Ruleset. : : I don't know; it might be more interesting to define the skeleton of : Call and Spin, then see what people can think of doing with it - such : springboarding is perhaps a helpful path to be treading. (As Paul said : in a Lounge somewhere, or possibly through private email, the idea of : encouraging all Players to concentrate on a given aspect of the Ruleset : seems like a positive idea, and I think this goes just as much for the : implementation of new mechanics as for the repair of old ones.) The proposal is only *defining*, not *implementing*, basically because I only got half an idea. Ole From Thu Dec 9 16:30:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 00:34:02 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7693 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 00:33:49 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 00:33:49 -0000 Received: from [195.89.184.38] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 5.00.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id nxsqzaaa for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:06:09 +0000 Message-ID: <00eb01bf42a3$23175f60$26b859c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <82nt0o$p721@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:11:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Samantha? Sven? Maybe with one of the scorers we should modify the > name - > > > make it the Scorers' Saloon rather than a Lounge. > > > > This would be my second choice after Sell. > > It'll be a bit odd if we don't use a surname, really. And while > "Scorers' Saloon" cleanly separates it from the other Lounges, it > doesn't really suggest what the Saloon is for. Does it have to? The current names don't really indicate what goes on inside and Holmes doesn't much. > > > Final suggestion, honest - since we're thinking of making this a > Baker > > > Street-specific Lounge, maybe we should call it Holmes. > > > > Or Practice lounge. > > "Holmes" sounds perfect, really. Probably a good idea to go with that > and to save "Sell" for the day when we feel the need for another normal > Lounge. I'd rather call it the Baker Street Lounge than Holmes, since Holmes isn't MC related. Sell would still be my first choice. > Can we get the Baker Street Rules put up in a prominent place on the > Web page, incidentally, Snow? Maybe added to the FAQ somewhere? If you mean just the Baker Street part of Volume 4, then I will, but I can't see the point. It's not self contained, so one would still have to refer to the main Ruleset to play. And it wouldn't be of any help to someone who didn't already know the game. If you mean an entire self-contained Baker Street Ruleset with none of the unnessasary parts of the full Ruleset and maintain it in parallel with the full Ruleset. Then I will, but only if someone else does the constructing and maintaining. Snow -"The Prime Minister has accused France of defying science...." -Radio 4 From Thu Dec 9 16:30:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 00:34:00 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7670 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 00:33:48 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 00:33:48 -0000 Received: from [195.89.184.38] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 5.00.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id kxsqzaaa for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:06:07 +0000 Message-ID: <00e901bf42a3$21af43e0$26b859c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <82lci2+r88r@eGroups.com> <011101bf4189$174228c0$5757fea9@opus> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:39:01 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: New Games MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, we've got: Czech Variant (Garden Lounge) Kevan Dunx Ole Free-for-all Solipsism (Brook-Taylor Lounge) Kevan Dunx Ole Snow. I'll give people another day to sign up since Czech variant doesn't allow late arrivals. The games start tommorow. Snow -"You know I've got the world up my ass" --Circle Jerks. From Thu Dec 9 16:30:23 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 00:34:01 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7679 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 00:33:49 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 00:33:49 -0000 Received: from [195.89.184.38] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 5.00.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id lxsqzaaa for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:06:08 +0000 Message-ID: <00ea01bf42a3$224df4e0$26b859c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <001d01bf4108$9ecad520$f38ca6c3@snow> <00b001bf41c2$d6eed360$126638d4@snow> <029101bf4255$42015460$c7e4fea9@opus> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:11:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > : > Proposal 943 - Calling Dr. Spin [Multiple] > : > > : > Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call > : > : > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of non-overlapping Line > : > Segments emanating from the Station. > : > : What does overlapping mean in this context? > > To pick an example: > > Surrey Quays (EL) has 7 Line Segments emanating from it: to Shoreditch, to > Whitechapel, to Shadwell, to Wapping, to Rotherhithe, to New Cross and to > New Cross Gate. The first 5 of these overlap on Surrey Quays-Rotherhithe, so > they are counted as just one. Hence, the Call of Surrey Quays is 3. Oh I see, clever. Why not just have the number of adjacent Stations? Less clever, but easier to understand without examples. Snow -"I'm the operator with my pocket calculator" --Kraftwerk From Thu Dec 9 16:30:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 00:34:02 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7700 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 00:33:50 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 00:33:50 -0000 Received: from [195.89.184.38] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 5.00.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id oxsqzaaa for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:06:10 +0000 Message-ID: <00ec01bf42a3$23d00100$26b859c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <82ns81$s7jn@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:35:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > -Did you know that the Intel 810 chipset has a built in true-random > number generator? > > Brownian motion of air particles? Radiation from a resistor. Snow -Discovering that CDs don't just snap in half when you bend them, but explode into a multitude of high velocity shrapnel all heading straight for your eyes and leave a pretty layer of glittery stuff all over the room. From Thu Dec 9 22:40:17 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 06:43:55 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13891 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 06:43:36 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 06:43:36 -0000 Received: from opus (p456-114.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.134.242]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA20967 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:43:34 +0100 Message-ID: <00a401bf42d9$c221e180$be7ffea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <001d01bf4108$9ecad520$f38ca6c3@snow> <00b001bf41c2$d6eed360$126638d4@snow> <029101bf4255$42015460$c7e4fea9@opus> <00ea01bf42a3$224df4e0$26b859c3@snow> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 06:02:01 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote: : : Oh I see, clever. Why not just have the number of adjacent Stations? Less clever, but easier to : understand without examples. : Well, you're right. That would be easier. The main difference comes with, say, Sloane Square. It has 2 adjacent Stations, but it is connected to each of these by 2 lines, so that makes 4 Line Segments. So, in fact, a wording like: "The Call of a Station is equal to the number of Line Segments from the Station to its adjacent Stations" might be better. Ole From Dunx Thu Dec 9 22:45:32 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 06:49:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16614 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 06:48:53 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 06:48:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 21590 invoked by uid 85); 10 Dec 1999 06:48:49 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO localhost.localdomain) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 06:48:49 -0000 From: Dunx To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 06:35:58 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] References: <82ns81$s7jn@eGroups.com> Message-Id: <99121006482000.00596@l...> Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 09 Dec 1999, you wrote: > > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of non-overlapping > Line > > Segments emanating from the Station. > > Jolly good, if a little under-defined. "The Call of Morden" has fine > Lovecraftian potential, regardless. I rather like the terminology used, as well. It's good to see Spin turning up. > > > The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to > that Station. > > > Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its > Call. > > > > How is the Spin of a Station to be recorded after the piece has left? > > This does seem a bit too much to keep track of. Something that'd work > superbly with a board game or computer game, but only serves to make > things more awkward, through email. I've been soundly preempted on the point I was going to make, but there might be an easy solution: we could record the Spins of Stations moved to as we Move to them. The easiest place would probably be in the Line Code parentheses. So, starting with an LV of 0 - Dunx : [LV+3] Oval (VC, 6) Not very pretty or easy to find though. > > > [No, I haven't the faintest idea about what to do with these terms, > but that > > > may come.] > > > > I'd rather have something to do with them before inserting them in > the Ruleset. > > I don't know; it might be more interesting to define the skeleton of > Call and Spin, then see what people can think of doing with it - such > springboarding is perhaps a helpful path to be treading. (As Paul said > in a Lounge somewhere, or possibly through private email, the idea of > encouraging all Players to concentrate on a given aspect of the Ruleset > seems like a positive idea, and I think this goes just as much for the > implementation of new mechanics as for the repair of old ones.) I'm with Kevan on this one - definitions with potential are always useful, as long as they are well-defined and not too cumbersome. > > > All aggressive Actions, whether direct or indirectly in their > effect > > > on Players, have their costs reduced by two tokens. > > > > Two Tokens of the Actioning Player's choice? > > And how is "aggressive" defined? (Although the Token colours list Blue > as "Indirectly Aggressive" and Red as "Directly Aggressive", these seem > far more guidelines than methods of interpreting Actions. "Out of > Knip", "Cascade Kill" and whatever else surely don't qualify as > Aggressive.) Hmm... good point. The intention was to make the game less tortuous, since attacking play is an essential part of this variant - I chose to use the loose 'aggressive' wording rather than the phraseology from Rutts since I wanted to encourage Pegging of Line Segments. One to fix and resubmit, or Pass and fix in situ? -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig From Fri Dec 10 13:27:51 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 10 Dec 1999 21:31:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29664 invoked from network); 10 Dec 1999 21:29:23 -0000 Received: from s24.athenenet.co.uk (HELO maildns2.fsbdial.co.uk) (195.89.137.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 1999 21:29:23 -0000 Received: from [193.164.188.30] by maildns2.freenet.co.uk (NTMail 5.00.0010/NT0619.00.9914eb79) with ESMTP id yyltzaaa for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:17:46 +0000 Message-ID: <007901bf4354$c74a1c60$1ebca4c1@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <001d01bf4108$9ecad520$f38ca6c3@snow> <00b001bf41c2$d6eed360$126638d4@snow> <029101bf4255$42015460$c7e4fea9@opus> <00ea01bf42a3$224df4e0$26b859c3@snow> <00a401bf42d9$c221e180$be7ffea9@opus> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:30:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 32 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > Snow wrote: > : > : Oh I see, clever. Why not just have the number of adjacent Stations? Less > clever, but easier to > : understand without examples. > : > > Well, you're right. That would be easier. > > The main difference comes with, say, Sloane Square. It has 2 adjacent > Stations, but it is connected to each of these by 2 lines, so that makes 4 > Line Segments. > > So, in fact, a wording like: > "The Call of a Station is equal to the number of Line Segments from the > Station to its adjacent Stations" > might be better. That would be alot better. Snow -Daisy juggling. From Mon Dec 13 12:11:35 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 13 Dec 1999 20:15:14 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19444 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 20:15:08 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 20:15:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 17519 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 20:15:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.208) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 20:15:06 -0000 Message-ID: <004a01bf45a6$97b0d760$d07a38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:45:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 34 - Piece In Our Time [Multiple] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following Emergency Proposal has been made: Votes should be cast within 24hrs to the normal address. > Emergency Proposal - Piece In Our Time [Multiple] > > { Comment: an ambiguity and and error in the Czech Variant Rules... > Following on from commentary in the Czech Variant Game, obviously. } > > [Amendment: Taken Out] > > Amend Rule 4.2.2 (No Overtaking) such that its secoind paragraph reads > thus: > > A corollary to this is that any Actions requiring co-location of > Pieces may not be played, the [Taking] Action described in Rule 4.2.3 > being the sole exception. > > [Amendment: I Wouldn't Start From Here] > > Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) to add the following paragraph: > > If there is ambiguity about which of a Player's Pieces could have > performed the Move (eg where multiple Tourists may Move to the same > initial Interchange) the Player must include the start station within > the Piece brackets. Thus: > > Rushton (T Surrey Quays) : Poplar (DL) > > [Enactment: It's Over There, In A Box] > > Apply the Piece ambiguity elimination rule from the Rule 4.2.1 to all > active Games of Czech Variant. > > After its application, this Rule repeals itself. > > [End of Piece In Our Time] Snow -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Mon Dec 13 13:58:42 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 13 Dec 1999 22:02:22 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1017 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 22:02:19 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 22:02:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 27564 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 22:02:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.122.232) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 22:02:16 -0000 Message-ID: <00ac01bf45b5$91a88200$d07a38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:35:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Emergency Proposal 34 - Piece In Our Time [Multiple] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Emergency Proposal - Piece In Our Time [Multiple] > > { Comment: an ambiguity and and error in the Czech Variant Rules... > Following on from commentary in the Czech Variant Game, obviously. } > > [Amendment: Taken Out] > > Amend Rule 4.2.2 (No Overtaking) such that its secoind paragraph reads > thus: > > A corollary to this is that any Actions requiring co-location of > Pieces may not be played, the [Taking] Action described in Rule 4.2.3 > being the sole exception. I don't think this solves the problem. Simply because the Action is allowed doesn't mean the Move is. I'm not even convinced that the "corollary" prevents the [Taking] action, just notes that they can't be used. The problem is with the Move not the Action. > [Amendment: I Wouldn't Start From Here] > > Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) to add the following paragraph: > > If there is ambiguity about which of a Player's Pieces could have > performed the Move (eg where multiple Tourists may Move to the same > initial Interchange) the Player must include the start station within > the Piece brackets. Thus: > > Rushton (T Surrey Quays) : Poplar (DL) Might be easier to just give the Tourists numbers, but this does the trick. > [Enactment: It's Over There, In A Box] > > Apply the Piece ambiguity elimination rule from the Rule 4.2.1 to all > active Games of Czech Variant. Rule 0.4.5 says ". No Proposal may have any retroactive effect, explicit or otherwise." Snow -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Mon Dec 13 17:12:31 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 14 Dec 1999 01:16:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4122 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 01:09:26 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 01:09:26 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA05185; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:09:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma004962; Tue, 14 Dec 99 11:08:47 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:08:47 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:08:45 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Vote on EP34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, December 14, 1999 5:45 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > The following Emergency Proposal has been made: > > Votes should be cast within 24hrs to the normal address. For. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Tue Dec 14 05:24:30 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 14 Dec 1999 13:28:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 7870 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 13:28:04 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 13:28:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.127] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 1999 13:28:04 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:27:55 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <835gkr$nnv3@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00ac01bf45b5$91a88200$d07a38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: EP34 - Vote and Comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't think this solves the problem. Simply because the Action is allowed doesn't mean the Move > is. The problem is with the Move not the Action. Very true. I vote AGAINST. > > Rushton (T Surrey Quays) : Poplar (DL) > > Might be easier to just give the Tourists numbers, but this does the trick. It's a bit ugly, though, skewing the alignment of the player/move thing. Numbering the Tourists would be nicer, I think. Possibly a touch confusing, but probably not. > > [Enactment: It's Over There, In A Box] > > > > Apply the Piece ambiguity elimination rule from the Rule 4.2.1 to all > > active Games of Czech Variant. > > Rule 0.4.5 says > > ". No > Proposal may have any retroactive effect, explicit or otherwise." How is this retroactive? Or am I missing something? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Tue Dec 14 07:45:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 14 Dec 1999 15:49:04 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9911 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 15:48:29 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 15:48:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 30842 invoked by uid 85); 14 Dec 1999 15:48:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 15:48:28 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:48:28 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: EP34 - Vote and Comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <835otg+l7h@eGroups.com> On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:27:55 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > I don't think this solves the problem. Simply because the Action is > allowed doesn't mean the Move > > is. The problem is with the Move not the Action. > > Very true. I vote AGAINST. Fair enough. A rather rushed EP, I fear. > > > Rushton (T Surrey Quays) : Poplar (DL) > > > > Might be easier to just give the Tourists numbers, but this does the > trick. > > It's a bit ugly, though, skewing the alignment of the player/move > thing. Numbering the Tourists would be nicer, I think. Possibly a touch > confusing, but probably not. Hmm, yes. I was aiming for something effective and quick but which would submit to fiddling later, rather than something immediately perfect. How about suffixing the Tourist with the major Piece it starts adjacent to instead? The major Piece prefixes are unique, after all, and this would be easier to follow, I think, than adding arbitrary numbers. It also has a pleasing resonance with chess - "Busker's Tourist to Surrey Quays, Takes Inspector." > > > [Enactment: It's Over There, In A Box] > > > > > > Apply the Piece ambiguity elimination rule from the Rule 4.2.1 to > all > > > active Games of Czech Variant. > > > > Rule 0.4.5 says > > > > ". No > > Proposal may have any retroactive effect, explicit or otherwise." > > How is this retroactive? Or am I missing something? I think Snow's point is that the EP is attempting to modify Moves already played (or Move, actually, since only my Move is affected). On balance, rather than risk some really very bad legislation making it into the Ruleset, I think I shall withdraw this EP and do it as a standard Proposal instead. It does not, on reflection, seem that urgent. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Tue Dec 14 11:45:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:40 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15136 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 19:49:15 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 14501 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 19:49:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.161) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:11 -0000 Message-ID: <00cc01bf466c$27158fc0$2c7b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:51:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 32 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 32 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 942 Denial in the Lion's Den 3 1 1 3 Passes 943 Calling Dr. Spin 1 2 2 3 Fails 944 A New Kind of Sucker 3 2 0 3 Passes 945 Anti-MC 2 2 1 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 942 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR - FOR FOR - AGA 943 (Ole) - AGA - - PAS - FOR PAS - AGA 944 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR - FOR FOR - PAS 945 (Dunx) - PAS - - FOR - AGA FOR - PAS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - 944 - 943 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - 942 - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - 942 943 - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - 944 945 - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 20 0 0 13 0 9 14 0 13 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 20 0 0 13 0 9 14 0 13 Halved 10 6 4 7 0 6 FOR votes +8 +0 +1 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes -2 +0 -2 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +0 +2 +0 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +5 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +15 +2 +0 +2 +0 +5 Final 11 25 0 0 8 0 4 9 0 11 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Tue Dec 14 11:46:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:40 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10643 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 19:49:20 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 14537 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 19:49:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.161) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:16 -0000 Message-ID: <00cd01bf466c$2a2a70e0$2c7b38d4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <835otg+uht9@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:33:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: EP34 - Vote and Comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > [Enactment: It's Over There, In A Box] > > > > > > > > Apply the Piece ambiguity elimination rule from the Rule 4.2.1 to > > all > > > > active Games of Czech Variant. > > > > > > Rule 0.4.5 says > > > > > > ". No > > > Proposal may have any retroactive effect, explicit or otherwise." > > > > How is this retroactive? Or am I missing something? > > I think Snow's point is that the EP is attempting to modify Moves already > played (or Move, actually, since only my Move is affected). Yes, but after thinking about it over night, it's only the GSD being changed. > On balance, rather than risk some really very bad legislation making it > into the Ruleset, I think I shall withdraw this EP and do it as a standard > Proposal instead. It does not, on reflection, seem that urgent. OK. Snow -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Tue Dec 14 11:45:59 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:39 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15132 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 19:49:14 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 14490 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 19:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.56.119.161) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 19:49:10 -0000 Message-ID: <00cb01bf466c$26448420$2c7b38d4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:49:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Three ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 946 - You've Got To Haggle! [Action] Rule 1.4.x - You've Got To Haggle! An Action is Hagglable if its cost contains two or more Tokens of the same colour. Token exchange Actions and [Opening MC] are not Hagglable, however. A Player may perform the post-Move Action "[Haggle over ]", where is a Hagglable Action, to reduce the cost of said by one of the involved same-colour Tokens, for a duration of one Round. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Haggle over ] Post 1.4.x 30 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 947 - Haven of Piece [Multiple] { Comment: reworking the EP Piece In Our Time to be a bit more pleasing and, accurate whilst also removing the dubious retroactivity. } [Amendment: Move Doubt] Amend Rule 4.2.2 (No Overtaking) such that it reads thus: No two Pieces in a Czech Variant Game may occupy the same Station unless a Taking Action is played. No Piece may pass through a Station occupied by another Piece. A corollary to this is that any Actions (other than Taking) which require co-location of Pieces may not be played. [Amendment: Suffix Punch] Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) such that its final paragraph and the example read thus: Each Turn, a Player may Move a single piece under eir control. Which piece has been Moved shall be indicated by placing the initial letter of the piece in brackets after the Player's name for a major Piece, while Tourists are identified by the letter T prefixed by the major Piece which they begin the Game adjacent to. Viz: Cryer (I) : Turnham Green (PD) Rushton (BT) : Whitechapel (DL) [End of Haven of Piece] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 948 - Passengers Only [Amendment] Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) to add the following paragraph to the bullet point describing the Commuter: Movement bonuses and penalties apply only to the Commuter. { Comment: the current situation where all Pieces get the bonuses seems bizarre - a Driver or Inspector could travel through every Interchange on a Line in one Move (twice, in the case of the Piccadilly). Basically, this is about encouraging the Commuter to actually _move_. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 949 - No Comment [Amendment] { Comment: mending something I broke by accident earlier. } Amend Rule 1.3.1 (Taking A Turn) such that the penultimate bullet point reads thus: * Appending to the Game State Document a Comment. Comments begin with "{" and end with a close brace "}". Comments in no way affect the state of play of the Game of Mornington Crescent, but may be required to clarify aspects of Play. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Wed Dec 15 03:45:18 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 15 Dec 1999 11:48:58 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2651 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 11:48:41 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 11:48:41 -0000 Received: from opus (p413-115.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.218.115]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA31368 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:48:39 +0100 Message-ID: <013a01bf46f2$34cddd80$9945fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:46:42 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Protoproposal: Spin City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I revised this: Protoproposal: Spin City [Multiple] Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call The Call of a Station is equal to the number of Line Segments from the Station to its adjacent Stations. For instance, the Call of Camden Town is 4, while Baker Street has a Call of 10, and Brixton has a Call of 1. The Call of a Ghost Station is 0. Rule 1.17.x - Spin Doctors The Spin of a Move is equal to the Call of the Station Moved to, minus the LV of the Move. The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to that Station. Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its Call. --- Now, what could we use such a thing for? And how would we record it? Ole From Dunx Wed Dec 15 09:21:56 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 15 Dec 1999 17:25:36 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20037 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 17:25:32 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 17:25:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 22845 invoked by uid 85); 15 Dec 1999 17:25:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 17:25:31 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:25:30 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Protoproposal: Spin City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <838iug+2hhb@eGroups.com> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:46:42 +0100 "Ole Andersen" wrote: > I revised this: > > Protoproposal: Spin City [Multiple] [...] Better. > And how would we record it? This is still, to my mind, the killer, and I shall address it first if I may. The options would seem to be: a/ have another board akin to Disruptions or Stacks to which Spins are added as they are defined. How bad this would be depends entirely on how long the Game lasts, but it would probably be infeasible for the Long Game (~150 Moves played, and less than a fifth of the way through). There is an obvious limit, though, since there are only 295 Stations on th estandard board. b/ give the Spin in the Move. This is manageable, but would radically change the look of the GSD one way or another. Let's consider this further. Given a normal enough Move - Kevan : [LV+3] Queens Park (BL) [Purchasing Knerdling Stick] ... the Spin value () could go: 1 - in with the Line Code: Kevan : [LV+3] Queens Park ( BL) [Purchasing Knerdling Stick] This isn't too bad, but doesn't fit in well with Special Moves. 2 - as a prefix to the Play Proper, say replacing the ':' separator: Kevan :: [LV+3] Queens Park (BL) [Purchasing Knerdling Stick] ... although that doesn't work because again it is not clear which Station the value applies to if a Special Move had been made. Let's add the Venbacker Code, then - Kevan :QUPK=: [LV+3] Queens Park (BL) [Purchasing Knerdling Stick] (not sure about the exact code - PaulWay's page is not linked and I've left my printout at home) 3 - as a separate Action somewhere else in the Play: Kevan : [LV+3] Queens Park (BL) [Purchasing Knerdling Stick] [Spin Queen's Park=] (or use the Venbacker Code again) The downside with all of these is that in a series of Moves to a Station, only the last one is significant, and that the actual Moves become more cumbersome. c/ record the Spin elsewhere - there is a proud history of trying to record Game information on web pages, but it's never gone well. The values change too quickly, and anyway this means the GSD is no longer self-contained. Let's just mark that one down as unworkable, then. Going back to /a/, consider that Spin could degrade; if Spins are always reset to Call at the end of a Game Day, then the Spin Board might at least be workable. > Now, what could we use such a thing for? How about: a/ setting a number of Stations to a given Spin garners you a bonus, or forming a pattern on the map with Spin-matched Stations could have an effect (such as invoking an immediate Tithe, or some other Action). b/ matching Charge and Spin could get a bonus c/ Spin could have LV effects, or do something strange to Token Stacks, or add an implied stack at a particular location (one-time-only Straddles?) (actually, I don't like any of these since they place further emphasis on Stations with lots of Lines) d/ Spin would be something else to use in Manoeuvres The key, however, is interaction - if Spin is to be interesting and actually worth tracking, it needs to be able to interact with other Game artefacts in novel ways. And don't forget that there is the possibility of such things as Spin Dampening Fields, or Spin Inversions, or whatever. I do have a further question or two, though: at what point should Spin effects be calculated? Normal Moves only? After Special Moves have been executed? What do Shunts do? Further, how does Spin work on non-Co-Located Stations such as Turnham Green or Shepherd's Bush? Is Spin allocated by Station/Line Code pair in these cases? What is the Call of Chalfont & Latimer: 3 or 4? I think I'll stop there. Just my tuppence three farthings during a merge/compilation cycle (it's amazing how long compilations can take sometimes). -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Wed Dec 15 13:19:27 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 15 Dec 1999 21:23:07 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18456 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 21:21:58 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 21:21:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 14229 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 21:21:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.159.64.228) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 21:21:52 -0000 Message-ID: <00b301bf4742$3f0885c0$e4409fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <013a01bf46f2$34cddd80$9945fea9@opus> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:44:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Protoproposal: Spin City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote: > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of Line Segments from the > Station to its adjacent Stations. > For instance, the Call of Camden Town is 4, while Baker Street has a Call > of 10, and Brixton has a Call of 1. > The Call of a Ghost Station is 0. Good. > Rule 1.17.x - Spin Doctors > > The Spin of a Move is equal to the Call of the Station Moved to, minus > the > LV of the Move. > The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to that > Station. > Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its Call. I'm not sure Stations should have Spin. > Now, what could we use such a thing for? I think there is a lot of unused potential in Charges (excuse the pun). Maybe Spin could be used to interfere with Charge somehow. > And how would we record it? Well, I don't think Stations should have Spin, so I won't worry about recording it. Incedentally, when you make your Proposal don't forget to make an exception for Baker Street (like Charge). Snow -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Wed Dec 15 13:19:28 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 15 Dec 1999 21:23:08 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5759 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 21:21:59 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 21:21:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 14240 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 21:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.159.64.228) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 21:21:53 -0000 Message-ID: <00b401bf4742$3fc8c880$e4409fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <00cb01bf466c$26448420$2c7b38d4@snow> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:16:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 946 - You've Got To Haggle! [Action] Yuck, horrible. How do you know which colour the haggling is over? > Proposal 947 - Haven of Piece [Multiple] Excellent > Proposal 948 - Passengers Only [Amendment] > > Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) to add the following paragraph to the > bullet point describing the Commuter: > > Movement bonuses and penalties apply only to the Commuter. > > { Comment: the current situation where all Pieces get the bonuses seems > bizarre - a Driver or Inspector could travel through every Interchange > on a Line in one Move (twice, in the case of the Piccadilly). > > Basically, this is about encouraging the Commuter to actually _move_. This seems to be too much in the other direction. The current state is clearly unacceptable, but I think this will slow the game down too much. It will, I think, need to be played to see whether other pieces need a method of getting Tokens. I shall leave it to the Players of Game 21. > Proposal 949 - No Comment [Amendment] > > { Comment: mending something I broke by accident earlier. Good. Snow -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Wed Dec 15 14:52:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 15 Dec 1999 22:56:24 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32696 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 22:56:23 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 22:56:23 -0000 Received: from opus (p459-41.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.136.41]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA11878 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:45:12 +0100 Message-ID: <068101bf474d$ea5731a0$9945fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <00cb01bf466c$26448420$2c7b38d4@snow> <00b401bf4742$3fc8c880$e4409fd4@snow> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:14:13 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > Proposal 946 - You've Got To Haggle! [Action] : : Yuck, horrible. How do you know which colour the haggling is over? It looks like [Constructing Generator] and [:Electrified] are the only Actions with potential multi-Haggling. All other Hagglable Actions are 2 (or more) of one colour and zero or one of another colour. I would guess the Haggling could be over either colour, as the Actioning Player see fit. Ole From Thu Dec 16 12:39:45 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 16 Dec 1999 20:43:26 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23310 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 20:43:23 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 20:43:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 11497 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 20:43:17 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 20:43:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 14933 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 20:43:16 -0000 Received: from 158.04-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (212.159.71.158) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 20:43:16 -0000 Message-ID: <009001bf4806$08efcc40$9e479fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <00cb01bf466c$26448420$2c7b38d4@snow> <00b401bf4742$3fc8c880$e4409fd4@snow> <068101bf474d$ea5731a0$9945fea9@opus> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:22:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : > Proposal 946 - You've Got To Haggle! [Action] > : > : Yuck, horrible. How do you know which colour the haggling is over? > > It looks like [Constructing Generator] and [:Electrified] are the only > Actions with potential multi-Haggling. All other Hagglable Actions are 2 (or > more) of one colour and zero or one of another colour. > > I would guess the Haggling could be over either colour, as the Actioning > Player see fit. Yes, but how is the colour to be recorded? In fact the same applies to Begging. What is needed is [Begging for ] and [Haggle over for ]. I suppose the precident has been set to exclude such details, but if the GSD is to be a true record then the details must be recorded. Although with Ruleset changes so regular tracing a GSD would be difficult. Snow -Buy Cuban Boys. Get Cliff off #1. From Thu Dec 16 14:27:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 16 Dec 1999 22:30:44 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11374 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 22:30:41 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 22:30:41 -0000 Received: from opus (p457-76.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.135.76]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA10592 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:30:40 +0100 Message-ID: <03fb01bf4815$07aaa440$4c78fea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <00cb01bf466c$26448420$2c7b38d4@snow> <00b401bf4742$3fc8c880$e4409fd4@snow> <068101bf474d$ea5731a0$9945fea9@opus> <009001bf4806$08efcc40$9e479fd4@snow> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:24:36 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow asked: : Yes, but how is the colour to be recorded? In fact the same applies to Begging. What is needed is : [Begging for ] and [Haggle over for ]. You have a point. I might even vote for such a proposal. Go ahead and write it! : : I suppose the precident has been set to exclude such details, but if the GSD is to be a true record : then the details must be recorded. Although with Ruleset changes so regular tracing a GSD would be : difficult. Right, but I assume the solution is that we all acquire some more understanding employers, so we can play all day. That should keep the rulechange-to-turn ratio down. Ole From Fri Dec 17 01:04:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 09:07:43 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 13087 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 09:07:23 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 09:07:23 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.122] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 1999 09:07:23 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:07:17 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <83cug5$32sa@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <009001bf4806$08efcc40$9e479fd4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I would guess the Haggling could be over either colour, as the Actioning > > Player see fit. > > Yes, but how is the colour to be recorded? In fact the same applies to Begging. What is needed is > [Begging for ] and [Haggle over for ]. I disagree; yes, the Haggled Token colour should be recorded, because the Action's cost is decreased for a whole Round - other Players should be able to easily see which colour was chosen, without having to wade back through comments. With Begging, though, nobody really cares which colour Token you chose (unless they want to Buzz you for an illegal Beg, but that happens straight away); the only really relevant thing is how many Tokens you *have*, which - of course - the GSD lists anyway. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Fri Dec 17 01:13:43 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 09:17:24 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 32274 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 09:17:19 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 09:17:19 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.122] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 1999 09:17:19 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:17:14 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <83cv2q$3325@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00cb01bf466c$26448420$2c7b38d4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fleeting comments:- > Proposal 946 - You've Got To Haggle! [Action] I'm not entirely comfortable with this one, since it rather skews the predictability of the game; I don't want to have to stop and think "Right, now what can Actions can people play against me if they Haggle as well?" every Turn. It does suddenly make the game a lot more powerful, too, which I'm not sure would be a good thing - we seem to have got all the Token costs nicely balanced, now; offering the chance to halve some of them (quite easily, too, with many Turns having a spare half hour) seems reckless. > Proposal 947 - Haven of Piece [Multiple] > > Tourists are identified by the letter T prefixed by the major Piece > which they begin the Game adjacent to. Viz: I can't decide how awkward this is going to be to keep track of. Probably not very, if you just refer to the previous Move made by that Piece, I suppose. Good stuff. > Proposal 948 - Passengers Only [Amendment] > > Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) to add the following paragraph to the > bullet point describing the Commuter: > > Movement bonuses and penalties apply only to the Commuter. I've a feeling that Czech Variant would be more playable without any Actions (other than "[Taking]") and sans Tokens, actually... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Fri Dec 17 05:47:38 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 13:51:20 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 17826 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 13:51:06 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 13:51:06 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.120] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 1999 13:51:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:50:58 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <83df42$1bja@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <013a01bf46f2$34cddd80$9945fea9@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Protoproposal: Spin City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Protoproposal: Spin City [Multiple] > > Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call > > The Call of a Station is equal to the number of Line Segments from the > Station to its adjacent Stations. > For instance, the Call of Camden Town is 4, while Baker Street has a Call > of 10, and Brixton has a Call of 1. > The Call of a Ghost Station is 0. Good stuff, no objections there. I suppose this should probably lead to low-Call Stations having some benefit (since high-Call ones are already likely to give bonuses for moving to them, being huge Interchanges). > Rule 1.17.x - Spin Doctors > > The Spin of a Move is equal to the Call of the Station Moved to, minus > the > LV of the Move. > The Spin of a Station is equal to the Spin of the latest Move to that > Station. > Until a Station has been Moved to in a Game, its Spin equals its Call. This I'm less happy with; the idea of having another semi-arbitrary Station state doesn't greatly appeal. Aside from being, as discussed, a bit of an arse to keep track of, it also seems rather tricky to manipulate delicately, requiring at least a couple of Moves to get yourself lined up correctly. Unless someone can come up with a particularly smashing use for Spin that requires it to be monitored, I'd be hesitant to vote in favour of it. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Fri Dec 17 05:58:22 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 14:02:03 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 24806 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 14:01:46 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 14:01:46 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.121] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 1999 14:01:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:01:42 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <83dfo6$hlbc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <838iug+2hhb@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Protoproposal: Spin City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [...] > 3 - as a separate Action somewhere else in the Play: > Kevan : [LV+3] Queens Park (BL) [Purchasing Knerdling Stick] > [Spin Queen's Park=] > > The downside with all of these is that in a series of Moves to a Station, > only the last one is significant, and that the actual Moves become more > cumbersome. Ugh. Indeed. This seems far too much paperwork and arithmetic for something that's probably going to have minimal impact on most games. I think Charge is just about enough to keep track of and document; adding something else that depends on Station stats and varies with each Move just seems sadistic. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Fri Dec 17 07:11:01 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 15:14:43 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11289 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 15:14:20 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 15:14:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 3021 invoked by uid 85); 17 Dec 1999 15:14:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 15:14:20 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:14:20 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <83dk13+orh@eGroups.com> On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:17:14 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > Proposal 948 - Passengers Only [Amendment] > > > > Amend Rule 4.2.1 (Piece Maker) to add the following paragraph to the > > bullet point describing the Commuter: > > > > Movement bonuses and penalties apply only to the Commuter. > > I've a feeling that Czech Variant would be more playable without any > Actions (other than "[Taking]") and sans Tokens, actually... I think you're probably right, there - a very perspicaceous observation The only exception would have to be that the Commuter has to be able to change its LV, but othewise I think you've hit the nail very firmly on the head. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Fri Dec 17 08:31:00 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 16:34:41 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 23775 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 16:34:22 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 16:34:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 1999 16:34:22 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:34:22 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <83dome$4iqd@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <83dk13+orh@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The only exception would have to be that the Commuter has to be able to > change its LV, but othewise I think you've hit the nail very firmly on the > head. I was wondering about that; is there a good reasoon for the Commuter not using a king-style LV-1-move? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Fri Dec 17 15:18:58 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 1.291); by f7; 17 Dec 1999 23:22:39 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 3809 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 23:20:29 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 23:20:29 -0000 Received: from opus (p411-041.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.217.41]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA10819 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:20:27 +0100 Message-ID: <032c01bf48e5$2cc3bfc0$2d9ffea9@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <83cv2q$3325@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:22:34 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: : > Proposal 946 - You've Got To Haggle! [Action] : : I'm not entirely comfortable with this one, since it rather skews the : predictability of the game; I don't want to have to stop and think : "Right, now what can Actions can people play against me if they Haggle : as well?" every Turn. : : It does suddenly make the game a lot more powerful, too, which I'm not : sure would be a good thing - we seem to have got all the Token costs : nicely balanced, now; offering the chance to halve some of them (quite : easily, too, with many Turns having a spare half hour) seems reckless. With arguments like these, I might consider voting against. But seeing that it is my own proposal, I think I should withdraw it instead. Snow, I hereby withdraw Proposal 946. Ole From Sun Dec 19 11:09:44 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:26 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11179 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 19:13:18 -0000 Received: from mashie.force9.net (195.166.128.30) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 12900 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 19:13:04 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 1042 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 19:13:03 -0000 Received: from 211.03-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (212.159.70.211) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:03 -0000 Message-ID: <009f01bf4a54$e5f043e0$d3469fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <83cug5$32sa@eGroups.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:40:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan wrote: > > > I would guess the Haggling could be over either colour, as the > Actioning > > > Player see fit. > > > > Yes, but how is the colour to be recorded? In fact the same applies > to Begging. What is needed is > > [Begging for ] and [Haggle over for ]. > > I disagree; yes, the Haggled Token colour should be recorded, because > the Action's cost is decreased for a whole Round - other Players should > be able to easily see which colour was chosen, without having to wade > back through comments. > > With Begging, though, nobody really cares which colour Token you chose > (unless they want to Buzz you for an illegal Beg, but that happens > straight away); the only really relevant thing is how many Tokens you > *have*, which - of course - the GSD lists anyway. At the moment we have a GSD which is half of one thing and half of another. It contains a lot of information which is not required to play the Game (most stuff beyond the last round), but doesn't have quite enough to recreate a Game ([Begging], [Waiting] and several others don't put all the "Turn" in the GSD). I suppose it depends on whether we want to be able to follow a whole Game using only the GSD. If not then a lot of the GSD could be stripped away. If we do then some Actions will need to be changed. Actions that would need changing are [Waiting], [Recycling], [Generating Token] and [Purchasing Hat] which are all simple to change (the Ruleset specifies 3 versions of [Purchasing Hat]). [Finding], [fFrobisher fFlourish] and [Reshuffling] would cause problems. There may be others. Snow -Wrestling a piano. From Sun Dec 19 11:10:34 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Dec 1999 19:14:16 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 11275 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 19:13:33 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 4203 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 19:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 1046 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 19:13:05 -0000 Received: from 211.03-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (212.159.70.211) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 19:13:05 -0000 Message-ID: <00a001bf4a54$e793e1c0$d3469fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <83cv2q$3325@eGroups.com> <032c01bf48e5$2cc3bfc0$2d9ffea9@opus> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:42:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > With arguments like these, I might consider voting against. > > But seeing that it is my own proposal, I think I should withdraw it instead. > > Snow, I hereby withdraw Proposal 946. OK Snow -Pingu's pink pint of pine puree poisons penguins. From Tue Dec 21 13:50:04 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Dec 1999 21:53:47 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6570 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 21:52:49 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 21:52:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 5375 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 21:52:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.159.72.253) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 21:52:47 -0000 Message-ID: <009001bf4bfd$862bf4e0$fd489fd4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:50:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 34 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Four ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 950 - Vera [Enactment] Rule 1.20.x - Very Erratic Repetitive Announcements A Player may perform the post-Move Action "[:Vera:]", where is one of the Game States defined in Section 1.8, to put the mentioned Line in a State of Vera. While a Line is in a State of Vera, the said Game State applies to the said Line. Each Line can only be in one State of Vera at a time. Putting a Line, already in a State of Vera, in another State of Vera, will terminate the first-introduced State of Vera. The cost and duration of [:Vera:] are the same as the cost and duration of the Action introducing the said Game State. The post-Move Action [:deVera] terminates the State of Vera on the said Line. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [:Vera:] Post 1.20.x varies varies (L0) [:deVera] Post 1.20.x 5 1Si (L0) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 951 - Jungle Bulls [Action] Rule 1.13.x - Upcoming Holidays A Player may play the neutral Action [Upcoming Holiday]. After eir Turn, the Player should roll a 6-sided die after submitting eir Turn. The next Player to take a Turn should reference this die-roll with the following table, to determine a day. The firstcoming instance of the rolled day is considered a Holiday, and is for all purposes like a Sunday. For instance, Cramner plays [Upcoming Holiday] on a Tuesday, rolls a 2, and Henry VIII, being the next Player, records that the following Tuesday is a Holiday. The sudden occurence of Sunday-like days in the middle of the week is, of course, a disruption, and as such noted in the Disruptions Box of the GSD: Upcoming Holiday, later amended to Upcoming Holiday: Tuesday. +----------+-----------+ | # rolled | Day | +----------+-----------+ | 1 | Monday | | 2 | Tuesday | | 3 | Wednesday | | 4 | Thursday | | 5 | Friday | | 6 | Saturday | +----------+-----------+ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Upcoming Holiday] Neut 1.13.x 1Bu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 952 - Stationery [Multiple] In Rule 1.17.6, change: * Co-Situated - A Co-Situated Station is one which has more than one Line serving it at the same map location, but which is not an Interchange. For instance Bayswater is Co-Situated, whereas Turnham Green is not. to: * Co-Located - A Co-Located Station is one which has more than one Line serving it at the same map location, but which is not an Interchange. For instance Bayswater is Co-Located, whereas Turnham Green is not. Add a new: Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call The Call of a Station is equal to the total number of Line Segments from the Station to its adjacent Stations. For instance, the Call of Camden Town is 4, while Baker Street has a Call of 10, and Brixton has a Call of 1. The Call of a Ghost Station is 0. MN Speaker -Having a large one in Ikea. From Tue Dec 21 13:50:07 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Dec 1999 21:53:50 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12026 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 21:52:51 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 21:52:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 5377 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 21:52:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.159.72.253) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 21:52:49 -0000 Message-ID: <009101bf4bfd$8716f120$fd489fd4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:49:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 33 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 33 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 946 You've Got To Haggle! -- Withdrawn -- 947 Haven of Piece 3 0 0 3 Passes 948 Passengers Only 2 1 0 3 Passes 949 No Comment 3 0 0 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 946 (Ole) -- Withdrawn -- 947 (Dunx) - - - - - - FOR FOR - FOR 948 (Dunx) - - - - - - FOR FOR - PAS 949 (Dunx) - - - - - - FOR FOR - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - 947 Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 25 0 0 8 0 4 9 0 11 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 25 0 0 8 0 4 9 0 11 Halved 12 4 2 4 0 5 FOR votes +8 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +2 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +5 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +8 +0 +9 +9 +0 +5 Final 11 20 0 0 4 0 11 13 0 10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Who got The Rock Lobster in his head this morning and can't get rid of it. From Tue Dec 21 13:50:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Dec 1999 21:53:51 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12094 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 21:52:57 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 21:52:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 5380 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 21:52:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snow) (212.159.72.253) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 21:52:55 -0000 Message-ID: <009201bf4bfd$8ac8fca0$fd489fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:43:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Christmas break MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to London for Chirstmas and might be busy over new year, so I won't be able to Speak for that time. Hence I suggest Week 34 be extended until 4th Jan 2000. Obviously if anyone wishes to take over Speaking for that time they can do so. Snow -"Making beautiful sounds with table-tennis bats and radiator pipes." From Tue Dec 21 15:25:03 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Dec 1999 23:28:43 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13855 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 23:28:33 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 23:28:33 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA05211; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma005002; Wed, 22 Dec 99 09:28:04 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:27:57 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:27:54 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, December 22, 1999 7:50 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > MN Speaker > -Who got The Rock Lobster in his head this morning and can't get rid of > it. I find the best thing to do when you've got a mildly annoying song in your head is to immediately find another, slightly more irritating song to replace it with. Because the memes fight eachother, you can clear them both out of your head while they're trying to wrest control from eachother. However, only do this if you know that the song you're replacing with is something you're quite familiar with, otherwise it gains control. Having a pre-prepared familiar song for these emergencies is always a good idea - "You're the Voice" by John Farnham works well for me. This all sounds dangerously messianic, but it works for me. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Tue Dec 21 17:54:08 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Dec 1999 01:57:48 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24815 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 01:57:25 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 01:57:25 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.213] (dhcp9542213.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.213]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA25767 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:56:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:00:48 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Wednesday, December 22, 1999 7:50 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] >wrote: >> MN Speaker >> -Who got The Rock Lobster in his head this morning and can't get rid of >> it. > >I find the best thing to do when you've got a mildly annoying song in your >head is to immediately find another, slightly more irritating song to >replace it with. Because the memes fight eachother, you can clear them both >out of your head while they're trying to wrest control from eachother. >However, only do this if you know that the song you're replacing with is >something you're quite familiar with, otherwise it gains control. Having a >pre-prepared familiar song for these emergencies is always a good idea - >"You're the Voice" by John Farnham works well for me. My solution is to sing "Felice Navidad" and "Fish Heads" at the same time. "I wanna wish-a you a merry Christmas, I wanna wish-a you Roly-poly fish heads, Fish heads, fish heads, a merry Christmas, Eat them up, yum!" --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Dunx Wed Dec 22 02:21:05 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Dec 1999 10:24:48 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13116 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 10:24:14 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (208.243.19.101) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 10:24:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 24008 invoked by uid 85); 22 Dec 1999 10:24:08 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk (HELO localhost.localdomain) (158.152.31.180) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 10:24:08 -0000 From: Dunx To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:21:22 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] References: <009201bf4bfd$8ac8fca0$fd489fd4@snow> Message-Id: <99122210232900.00627@l...> Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Christmas break MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, you wrote: > I'm going to London for Chirstmas and might be busy over new year, so I won't be able to Speak for > that time. Hence I suggest Week 34 be extended until 4th Jan 2000. Sounds like a good plan to me - I've been on leave from work since Friday, so my play is bound to be erratic (with my routine being broken) until the New Year. Felicitations of the season to everyone, though. Ho ho ho. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig From Wed Dec 22 14:57:26 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Dec 1999 23:01:09 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8065 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:00:51 -0000 Received: from merlins0.plus.net.uk (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:00:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 22296 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:00:50 -0000 Received: from mayfly.plus.net.uk (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by merlins0.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:00:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 4663 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:00:49 -0000 Received: from 185.03-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (212.159.70.185) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:00:49 -0000 Message-ID: <001201bf4cd0$3569d4e0$b9469fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:07:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 33 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Riff and PaulWay wrote: > >On Wednesday, December 22, 1999 7:50 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] > >wrote: > >> MN Speaker > >> -Who got The Rock Lobster in his head this morning and can't get rid of > >> it. > > > >I find the best thing to do when you've got a mildly annoying song in your > >head is to immediately find another, slightly more irritating song to > >replace it with. Because the memes fight eachother, you can clear them both > >out of your head while they're trying to wrest control from eachother. I can see a sort of Core Wars going on inside PaulWay's head with songs battling it out for control of his brain. Notes and lyrics being fired between the neurons in an attempt to sieze the cortex. > >However, only do this if you know that the song you're replacing with is > >something you're quite familiar with, otherwise it gains control. Having a > >pre-prepared familiar song for these emergencies is always a good idea - > >"You're the Voice" by John Farnham works well for me. Never heard of it. Probably a good thing. I used to be able to rid myself of them by trying to remember the theme tune to Quantum Leap. With the first series or two this was almost impossible for some reason, but then they changed it and it became more memorable. > My solution is to sing "Felice Navidad" and "Fish Heads" at the same time. > > "I wanna wish-a you a merry Christmas, > I wanna wish-a you Roly-poly fish heads, > Fish heads, fish heads, a merry Christmas, > Eat them up, yum!" How bizarre. Snow -Who can remember the theme tune to Quantum Leap. From Wed Dec 22 14:57:24 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Dec 1999 23:01:07 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28146 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:00:50 -0000 Received: from cask.force9.net (195.166.128.29) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:00:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 6119 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:00:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mayfly.force9.net) (195.166.128.28) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:00:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 4658 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:00:48 -0000 Received: from 185.03-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO snow) (212.159.70.185) by mayfly.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:00:48 -0000 Message-ID: <001101bf4cd0$34c382c0$b9469fd4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <009201bf4bfd$8ac8fca0$fd489fd4@snow> <99122210232900.00627@l...> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:43:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Christmas break MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx: > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, you wrote: > > I'm going to London for Chirstmas and might be busy over new year, so I won't be able to Speak for > > that time. Hence I suggest Week 34 be extended until 4th Jan 2000. > > Sounds like a good plan to me - I've been on leave from work since Friday, so > my play is bound to be erratic (with my routine being broken) until the New > Year. > > Felicitations of the season to everyone, though. Indeed, Merry Christmas and a Happy Apocalypse to everyone. I'm going inactive now. Snow -Wondering if he can get to London and back without a Young Persons Railcard again. From Wed Dec 22 15:21:25 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Dec 1999 23:25:09 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 13252 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 23:24:24 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 23:24:24 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA05348; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:24:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma005133; Thu, 23 Dec 99 09:23:58 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:23:50 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:23:41 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Christmas break MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, December 22, 1999 8:21 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, you wrote: > > I'm going to London for Chirstmas and might be busy over new year, so I > > won't be able to Speak for > > that time. Hence I suggest Week 34 be extended until 4th Jan 2000. > > Sounds like a good plan to me - I've been on leave from work since Friday, > so my play is bound to be erratic (with my routine being broken) until > the New Year. I'm going to subscribe my home address to the lists while I'm away (for two weeks, until the 10th). So, like Dunx, play might be erratic, but I'll do what I can. Merry whatever, take care and have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Dec 30 11:12:49 1999 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 30 Dec 1999 19:16:36 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6922 invoked from network); 30 Dec 1999 19:16:25 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 1999 19:16:25 -0000 Received: from [195.8.78.152] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 123l3g-000OFk-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:16:24 +0000 Message-ID: <002c01bf52fa$22afa020$984e08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:05:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm back and active. Snow -Cuban Boys are #1 on John Peel's Festive 50; the world is a good place to be. From Sat Jan 1 12:08:01 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 01 Jan 2000 20:11:49 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8107 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2000 20:11:32 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2000 20:11:32 -0000 Received: from [195.8.77.101] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 124Us4-0007FY-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:11:29 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01bf5494$248ee220$654d08c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:49:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Emergency Proposal 35 - Overcharging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following EP has been made; send votes to the normal Speaker address before midnight Monday. Emergency Proposal 35 - Overcharging [Special Ruleset] Create a new Rule 2.13.x The Action [Electroplating], as defined by Rule 1.4.26, may not be played in Solipsism. { There is probably a more subtle way to do this, but baning it will do for the moment. The Problem is that it is possible for a Player to always move away from (or towards) the centre and other Players will move back towards the centre letting the first Player move towards the edge again gaining more Charge. Either that or everyone will move towards the edge and just stay there, crippling the game. In a normal game the amount of Charge a person can get is generally constrained by how far away from (or towards) the centre e can get (depending on where everyone else is and where home stations are....), but in Solipsism things like Rushton : Mill Hill East Garden : Tottenham court Road Rushton : Mill Hill East Garden : Tottenham Court Road will send Rushton's charge spiralling up and Garden's down. If no alternative is found we can probably remove Charge from Solipsism all together. } Snow -The campaign not against being for unclear English. From Sat Jan 1 17:40:34 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 02 Jan 2000 01:44:22 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16304 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 01:44:15 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 01:44:15 -0000 Received: from opus (p405-072.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.214.72]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA09432 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 03:44:13 +0100 Message-ID: <003801bf54c2$be4a6b40$48d652c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" References: <000e01bf5494$305f2ce0$654d08c3@snow> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:56:22 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: MN-B: Not a Turn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow wrote in the Brooke-Taylor Lounge: : | Player | Home | LV | CH | Bk Bu Br Go Gr Re Si | : +--------------+------------------+----+----+----------------------+ : | Ole | Limehouse | 6 |-40 | 1 4 0 0 0 4 1 | : | Snow | West Kensington | 6 |+17 | 5 0 2 0 0 3 0 | : |*Drone | | 0 | 0 | 2 0 2 0 0 2 0 | : | Kevan | Morden | 1 | -7 | 3 0 2 0 0 2 0 | : | Dunx | | 0 | 0 | 2 0 2 0 0 2 0 | ... : : Snow : [LV+3] Arnos Grove (PD via NT) [Electroplating] : : Not a Turn, just justifying my EP. : } Well, Rule 1.7.46 says: A Player may perform the "[Electroplating]" Action, if eir Charge is at least fifty more or fifty less than that of every other Player. Upon performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains a Gold Token. and you are not even close to being 50 from *every other Player*. I, on the other hand, might be close - if Kevan doesn't move towards the Meridian. No, I don't think Electroplating should be removed from Solipsism. But please convince me. Ole From Sun Jan 2 04:16:34 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 02 Jan 2000 12:20:23 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8313 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 12:19:56 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 12:19:56 -0000 Received: from [195.8.84.253] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 124jzG-0005UT-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:19:55 +0000 Message-ID: <002301bf551b$6a14f6e0$fd5408c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000e01bf5494$305f2ce0$654d08c3@snow> <003801bf54c2$be4a6b40$48d652c3@opus> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:13:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: MN-B: Not a Turn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said: > Snow wrote in the Brooke-Taylor Lounge: > : | Player | Home | LV | CH | Bk Bu Br Go Gr Re Si | > : +--------------+------------------+----+----+----------------------+ > : | Ole | Limehouse | 6 |-40 | 1 4 0 0 0 4 1 | > : | Snow | West Kensington | 6 |+17 | 5 0 2 0 0 3 0 | > : |*Drone | | 0 | 0 | 2 0 2 0 0 2 0 | > : | Kevan | Morden | 1 | -7 | 3 0 2 0 0 2 0 | > : | Dunx | | 0 | 0 | 2 0 2 0 0 2 0 | > ... > : > > : Snow : [LV+3] Arnos Grove (PD via NT) [Electroplating] > : > : Not a Turn, just justifying my EP. > : } > > Well, Rule 1.7.46 says: > > A Player may perform the "[Electroplating]" Action, if eir Charge is at > least fifty more or fifty less than that of every other Player. Upon > performing this Action, the Actioning Player gains a Gold Token. > > and you are not even close to being 50 from *every other Player*. I, on the > other hand, might be close - if Kevan doesn't move towards the Meridian. Sorry, I should have been a little more detailed or explained how lazy I was being; I didn't change any of the GSD except the comment. The move from King X to Arnos Grove is +37 leaving my Charge at +54 which is 50 more than everyone else. > No, I don't think Electroplating should be removed from Solipsism. But > please convince me. Well assuming I'm at Arnos Grove to raise your Charge (and prevent me from [Electroplting] again) you would go to Cockfosters, but that wouldn't be enough. Then any move made by any other Player would reduce eir Charge still leaving me with +50 over everyone else. No single Player would be able to stop me from Eletroplting again with a normal move (Arnos Grove->Cockfosters is +6 the second highest Charge is 0, I would still have +51 over everyone else). Only a coordinated series of moves like Ole : Kings X Kevan : Cockfosters (if Kevan's LV was high enough) would stop me from [Electroplating], but would allow you (Ole) to do so. And I think expecting a lot of coordination between (competing) Players is unreasonable, especially if it is just going to move the problem to another Player. If I decide only to move away from the meridian and you decide only to move towards it then we will be able to [Electroplate] whenever we have Bronzes unless both Dunx and Kevan coordinate an effort to stop us (by following or blocking). Overall I think the Action is too powerful. Snow -My new chair has broken after less than a week of use :-( From Mon Jan 3 10:25:05 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 03 Jan 2000 18:28:54 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 24743 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2000 18:28:32 -0000 Received: from fi.egroups.com (HELO xfi.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2000 18:28:32 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.26] by fi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jan 2000 18:28:32 -0000 Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:28:29 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <84qpod$hu8h@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Squib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like nobody made it to North Greenwich for their two-thousand Gold Tokens, then. Probably just as well; from the stuff I've seen on telly, the Millennium Dome looked insanely dull - I can't imagine wanting to see in the new year sitting motionless in some audience, watching some barking sub-Olympic-opening-ceremony costumed nonsense. Tch. Hope everyone had a pleasant opening to the new year, anyway, and that we're all back to full life and speed before too long. Happy 1900, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mon Jan 3 15:49:28 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 03 Jan 2000 23:53:17 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 596 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2000 23:53:09 -0000 Received: from viper.columbus.rr.com (204.210.252.254) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2000 23:53:09 -0000 Received: from [24.95.42.79] (dhcp9542079.columbus.rr.com [24.95.42.79]) by viper.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA05893 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:53:07 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:56:40 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Squib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Looks like nobody made it to North Greenwich for their two-thousand >Gold Tokens, then. Probably just as well; from the stuff I've seen on >telly, the Millennium Dome looked insanely dull - I can't imagine >wanting to see in the new year sitting motionless in some audience, >watching some barking sub-Olympic-opening-ceremony costumed nonsense. >Tch. The fireworks over the Thames looked nice on CNN, though. Has there been any decision on what to use the Millenium Dome for, yet? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Mon Jan 3 16:16:44 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 04 Jan 2000 00:20:34 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22242 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 00:20:05 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 00:20:05 -0000 Received: from [195.8.86.26] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 125Hhb-000Ciy-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:20:00 +0000 Message-ID: <006001bf5649$31e29f00$864d08c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: References: <000d01bf5494$248ee220$654d08c3@snow> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:09:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Emergency Proposal 35 - Overcharging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Emergency Proposal 35 - Overcharging [Special Ruleset] FOR: Kevan AGAINST: Ole Proposal Fails. MN Speaker -"Moving up on second base behind nicholas-van-whats-his-face; at 6'6 and a 100 tonnes the undesputed king of the slums." From Mon Jan 3 16:18:14 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 04 Jan 2000 00:22:03 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23334 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 00:21:40 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 00:21:40 -0000 Received: from [195.8.86.26] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 125Hj9-000ClE-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:21:35 +0000 Message-ID: <006101bf5649$6a9f7660$864d08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <84qpod$hu8h@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:11:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Squib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Looks like nobody made it to North Greenwich for their two-thousand > Gold Tokens, then. No, forgot about it myself. > Probably just as well; from the stuff I've seen on > telly, the Millennium Dome looked insanely dull - I can't imagine > wanting to see in the new year sitting motionless in some audience, > watching some barking sub-Olympic-opening-ceremony costumed nonsense. > Tch. I didn't see any of it, but it doesn't sound terribly exciting. > Hope everyone had a pleasant opening to the new year, anyway, and that > we're all back to full life and speed before too long. Yes, the fireworks were rather impressive here. We had a 180 panoramic view of fireworks in every direction for 20 mins around midnight and the mormon temple was attractivly floodlit in the centre. Snow -"Never been a litter bug, given head, taken drugs." From Mon Jan 3 16:43:21 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 04 Jan 2000 00:47:10 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25903 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 00:47:07 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 00:47:07 -0000 Received: from [195.8.86.26] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 125I7l-000DNj-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:47:01 +0000 Message-ID: <006d01bf564c$f8d6e780$864d08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:43:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Squib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Riff said: > >Looks like nobody made it to North Greenwich for their two-thousand > >Gold Tokens, then. Probably just as well; from the stuff I've seen on > >telly, the Millennium Dome looked insanely dull - I can't imagine > >wanting to see in the new year sitting motionless in some audience, > >watching some barking sub-Olympic-opening-ceremony costumed nonsense. > >Tch. > > The fireworks over the Thames looked nice on CNN, though. Has there been > any decision on what to use the Millenium Dome for, yet? For the next year or so it is holding an exhibition celebrating 2000 years of Tony Blair or something. After that I don't know. I remember hearing something about a conference centre. Snow -"God save the Queen, bloodsport for all." From Tue Jan 4 10:07:14 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 04 Jan 2000 18:11:04 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25215 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 18:10:37 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 18:10:37 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.106] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 125YPj-000J9D-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:10:35 +0000 Message-ID: <000401bf56de$be4cdce0$6a847ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <009001bf4bfd$862bf4e0$fd489fd4@snow> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:09:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 34 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I didn't comment on these earlier. > Proposal 950 - Vera [Enactment] Err, is the only purpose of this to increase the cost to take the line out of the given state? Doesn't this just make a more powerful set of Actions with no corresponding increase in cost. > > Proposal 951 - Jungle Bulls [Action] Hmm. I can't see it making much of a difference really. > Proposal 952 - Stationery [Multiple] > > In Rule 1.17.6, change: > * Co-Situated - A Co-Situated Station is one which has more than one Line > serving it at the same map location, but which is not an > Interchange. For instance Bayswater is Co-Situated, > whereas Turnham Green is not. > to: > * Co-Located - A Co-Located Station is one which has more than one Line > serving it at the same map location, but which is not an > Interchange. For instance Bayswater is Co-Located, > whereas Turnham Green is not. I found 3 occurances of Co-Situated and 2 of Co-Located. I think the Ruleset will need changing as well as the definition. I can't see any benefit of Co-Located over Co-Situated, but I can't see an disadvantage either. I'm leaving this space blank for an extremely insightful comment that I've forgotten. > Add a new: > Rule 1.17.x - A Close Call > > The Call of a Station is equal to the total number of Line Segments from > the Station to its adjacent Stations. > For instance, the Call of Camden Town is 4, while Baker Street has a Call > of 10, and Brixton has a Call of 1. > The Call of a Ghost Station is 0. If it must be done this is the way to do it. Snow -"Causing chaos and delay on the underground." From Tue Jan 4 12:26:06 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 04 Jan 2000 20:29:55 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5506 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 20:29:36 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 20:29:36 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.91] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 125aa0-000PLH-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:29:25 +0000 Message-ID: <009f01bf56f2$24adaf60$6a847ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:23:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 35 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Five -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 953 - Apocalypse? No I missed it. [Special Ruleset] Repeal Rule 2.1.2 (Y2K bug). Rule 1.7.62 (Let's go to the Dome, Simone) does not apply to the Long Game. This Rule will repeal itself on the second of January 2000. { I did make a Proposal some time ago to allow Special Rulesets to modify themselves, but it failed. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 954 - Money for Nothing [Special Ruleset] Create a new Rule 2.13.x The Action [Electroplating], as defined by Rule 1.4.26, may not be played in Solipsism. { I can think of better solutions than this, but they're fairly major and I haven't the brainpower to think them though at this time. } MN Speaker -Zzzzzzzzzzzzzoooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmm!!!!!!!! From Tue Jan 4 12:26:17 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 04 Jan 2000 20:30:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31777 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 20:29:55 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 20:29:55 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.91] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 125aaN-000PLH-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:29:47 +0000 Message-ID: <00a001bf56f2$3219f6e0$6a847ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:25:28 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 34 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 34 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ E35 Overcharging 1 0 1 3 Fails 950 Vera 1 1 1 3 Fails 951 Jungle Bulls 1 2 0 3 Passes 952 Stationery 2 1 0 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35 (Snow) - - - - FOR - AGA - - - 950 (Ole) - FOR - - - - PAS - - AGA 951 (Ole) - FOR - - - - PAS - - PAS 952 (Ole) - FOR - - - - PAS - - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - 952 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 20 0 0 4 0 11 13 0 10 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 20 0 0 4 0 11 13 0 10 Halved 10 2 5 6 0 5 FOR votes +0 +0 +4 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 -1 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +1 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 -1 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +2 +0 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +2 +2 +12 +0 +0 +5 Final 11 12 0 0 4 0 17 6 0 10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Free camels from desert said army major to Zebadee. From Wed Jan 5 17:05:15 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 06 Jan 2000 01:09:04 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32562 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2000 01:08:58 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 01:08:58 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.185] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1261Q8-0007OL-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:08:56 +0000 Message-ID: <00aa01bf57e2$55b95d20$b7887ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <8238ct$f7t0@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:49:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Great Bear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A while ago Kevan said > Out of interest, incidentally, does anyone have a scannable copy of the > "Great Bear" Tube-map variant, which I've seen occasional posters of? > It's the normal London Underground map, but with famous people's names > instead of stations (each line signifying a particular branch of fame; > philosophy, politics, film, comedy or whatnot). Mornington Crescent was > Humphrey Bogart, from memory... There is a conversation on MCiOS which came up with http://members.tripod.com/pansiecola/greatbear/boogabear.htm Snow -Defrosting leprechauns. From Thu Jan 6 01:22:10 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 06 Jan 2000 09:26:00 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 24139 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2000 09:25:53 -0000 Received: from fi.egroups.com (HELO xfi.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 09:25:53 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.5] by xfi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2000 09:25:53 -0000 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 01:25:45 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <851n2p$465q@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf57e2$55b95d20$b7887ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Great Bear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a conversation on MCiOS which came up with > > http://members.tripod.com/pansiecola/greatbear/boogabear.htm Marvellous. Very handy that it's got a little Station index at the bottom, too; we could probably use one of those underneath our normal Tube map, for the decreasing but considerable number of Stations I can never seem to find. Does anyone want to volunteer to propose the Great Bear variant, so that we don't all trip over ourselves? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Thu Jan 6 03:26:29 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 06 Jan 2000 11:30:19 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14406 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2000 11:29:42 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 11:29:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 27172 invoked by uid 85); 6 Jan 2000 11:29:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 11:29:37 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 7:29:37 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Great Bear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <851ucb+lh79@eGroups.com> On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 01:25:45 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > There is a conversation on MCiOS which came up with > > > > http://members.tripod.com/pansiecola/greatbear/boogabear.htm > > Marvellous. Very handy that it's got a little Station index at the > bottom, too; we could probably use one of those underneath our normal > Tube map, for the decreasing but considerable number of Stations I can > never seem to find. > > Does anyone want to volunteer to propose the Great Bear variant, so > that we don't all trip over ourselves? I'm just looking forward to declaring home at Benny Hill. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Thu Jan 6 05:45:36 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 06 Jan 2000 13:49:26 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 22380 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2000 12:14:19 -0000 Received: from fi.egroups.com (HELO xfi.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 12:14:19 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.122] by xfi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jan 2000 12:14:19 -0000 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:14:15 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8520un$nopt@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <851ucb+lh79@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Great Bear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Does anyone want to volunteer to propose the Great Bear variant, so > > that we don't all trip over ourselves? > > I'm just looking forward to declaring home at Benny Hill. Which should maybe be declared the Dollis Hill replacement? (Triggering silly music and speeded-up footage when we get stuck in one?) Robert Maxwell for Bank, perhaps? Hmm. Not sure where you'd have to go to catch Pigeons, mind - Burt Kwouk seems the only, albeit tenuous, one. Sans Parks, though, there doesn't seem a lot of point. And the "Saints" Line makes for an awful lot of Holy Stations, of course... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Thu Jan 6 06:43:08 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 06 Jan 2000 14:46:58 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23775 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2000 14:25:58 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 14:25:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 20747 invoked by uid 85); 6 Jan 2000 14:25:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 14:25:57 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 10:25:57 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Great Bear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <8529t2+il9e@eGroups.com> On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:14:15 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > > Does anyone want to volunteer to propose the Great Bear variant, so > > > that we don't all trip over ourselves? > > > > I'm just looking forward to declaring home at Benny Hill. > > Which should maybe be declared the Dollis Hill replacement? (Triggering > silly music and speeded-up footage when we get stuck in one?) > > Robert Maxwell for Bank, perhaps? Hmm. Not sure where you'd have to go > to catch Pigeons, mind - Burt Kwouk seems the only, albeit tenuous, > one. Sans Parks, though, there doesn't seem a lot of point. A shame Tom Lehrer doesn't feature. Or we could have a more appropriate small creature instead? Gerbils, perhaps? > And the "Saints" Line makes for an awful lot of Holy Stations, of > course... There's always Living and Dead as categories - obviously this would change over time... -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Sat Jan 8 15:24:42 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 08 Jan 2000 23:28:33 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30974 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2000 23:28:23 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2000 23:28:23 -0000 Received: from opus (p457-55.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.135.55]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA12556 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 00:28:18 +0100 Message-ID: <062d01bf5a2f$ed2bd9e0$9f862fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 00:22:54 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After Snow's win, this Lounge has stood empty. What do we want to play? Proposals so far seem to be: San Francisco 1849 Pachisi Botany Bay/S.F.49 What do you say? Ole From Sun Jan 9 05:26:15 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 09 Jan 2000 13:30:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 9886 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2000 13:29:57 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2000 13:29:57 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.130] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jan 2000 13:29:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 05:29:52 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <85a2gg$n0pk@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <062d01bf5a2f$ed2bd9e0$9f862fc3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > After Snow's win, this Lounge has stood empty. What do we want to play? A "Great Bear" variant sounds like a fun idea, to me, if we can get a Special Ruleset into place for it... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Sun Jan 9 21:05:19 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 10 Jan 2000 05:09:11 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1641 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2000 05:08:32 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2000 05:08:32 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA02426; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:08:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002400; Mon, 10 Jan 00 15:08:25 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:08:02 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:08:01 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday, January 09, 2000 11:30 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > > After Snow's win, this Lounge has stood empty. What do we want to > play? Baker Street gets my vote, just to try it out. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Sun Jan 9 21:07:32 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 10 Jan 2000 05:11:23 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3294 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2000 05:11:13 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2000 05:11:13 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA04061; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:11:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003969; Mon, 10 Jan 00 15:10:59 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:10:36 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:10:35 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday, January 09, 2000 9:23 AM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > After Snow's win, this Lounge has stood empty. What do we want to play? I'd also go a game of SF 1849. Botany Bay I think might have to wait until we get the problems with non-Zoned and Quadranted Maps fixed (the problems being basically how to get enough tokens to win). Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Mon Jan 10 02:44:50 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 10 Jan 2000 10:48:42 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 30311 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2000 10:48:23 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2000 10:48:23 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.6] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Jan 2000 10:48:23 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 02:48:21 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <85cddl$ari5@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Baker Street gets my vote, just to try it out. Did we reach any decision on whether to open a new, Baker-Street-only Lounge, in the end? I quite forget. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Mon Jan 10 09:41:07 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 10 Jan 2000 17:44:59 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 28683 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2000 17:44:32 -0000 Received: from ns1.seagate.com (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2000 17:44:32 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id RAA17516 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:44:22 GMT Received: from unknown(192.168.109.16) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xma016854; Mon, 10 Jan 00 17:42:07 GMT Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com with SMTP id RAA14177 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:42:07 GMT From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Received: by sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 88256862.00613E33 ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:42:09 -0800 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SEAGATE@INTERNET To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <88256862.00613CB0.00@s...> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:41:45 -0800 Content-Disposition: inline Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Squib MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The fireworks and related celebrations in Edinburgh were certainly worth travelling 6000 miles to be part of... Oh yes, and I caught the 'flu... miKi riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) on 01/03/2000 03:56:40 PM Please respond to l-nomic-d@eGroups.com To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com cc: (bcc: Richard M Brockie) Subject: MN: Re: Squib >Looks like nobody made it to North Greenwich for their two-thousand >Gold Tokens, then. Probably just as well; from the stuff I've seen on >telly, the Millennium Dome looked insanely dull - I can't imagine >wanting to see in the new year sitting motionless in some audience, >watching some barking sub-Olympic-opening-ceremony costumed nonsense. >Tch. The fireworks over the Thames looked nice on CNN, though. Has there been any decision on what to use the Millenium Dome for, yet? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00 jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight! http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/9641/_/946943597 -- Check out your group's private Chat room -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=l-nomic-d&m=1 From Mon Jan 10 17:47:04 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 11 Jan 2000 01:50:56 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29563 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 01:50:44 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 01:50:44 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA23677; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:50:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma023613; Tue, 11 Jan 00 11:50:36 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:50:36 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:50:34 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, January 10, 2000 8:48 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > > Baker Street gets my vote, just to try it out. > > Did we reach any decision on whether to open a new, Baker-Street-only > Lounge, in the end? I quite forget. Well, for the record, I think the Rushton Memorial Lounge would be quite suitable. As long as there's a Baker Street Game going on somewhere in the Lounges, then I don't think there's a need to dedicate a specific lounge to it. Babula, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Tue Jan 11 01:12:10 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 11 Jan 2000 09:16:02 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 19620 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 09:15:59 -0000 Received: from fi.egroups.com (10.1.2.136) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 09:15:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.124] by fi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jan 2000 09:15:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:15:49 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <85esc5$qt1d@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Did we reach any decision on whether to open a new, Baker-Street-only > > Lounge, in the end? I quite forget. > > Well, for the record, I think the Rushton Memorial Lounge would be quite > suitable. As long as there's a Baker Street Game going on somewhere in the > Lounges, then I don't think there's a need to dedicate a specific lounge to > it. I don't know; I think it might be better to have a spare lounge purely for Baker Street, keeping four for whatever "proper" Crescent we feel like playing. Four seems to have been exactly the right number so far, is all. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Jan 11 13:45:31 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 11 Jan 2000 21:49:21 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22224 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 21:48:41 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 21:48:41 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.136] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12899a-0000Db-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:48:38 +0000 Message-ID: <00eb01bf5c7d$513d4320$88847ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:17:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 35 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 35 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 953 Apocalypse? No I missed it. 1 1 1 3 Fails 954 Money for Nothing 2 1 0 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 953 (Snow) - AGA - - - - - FOR - PAS 954 (Snow) - FOR - - - - - FOR - PAS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 12 0 0 4 0 17 6 0 10 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 12 0 0 4 0 17 6 0 10 Halved 6 2 8 3 0 5 FOR votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 -1 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +0 +0 +2 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +5 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +9 +0 +0 +4 +0 +7 Final 11 15 0 0 2 0 8 7 0 12 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Coughing in time with the Archers signiture tune. From Tue Jan 11 13:45:33 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 11 Jan 2000 21:49:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22255 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 21:48:43 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 21:48:43 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.136] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12899b-0000Db-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:48:39 +0000 Message-ID: <00ec01bf5c7d$520e4ec0$88847ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:25:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Six ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 955 - Helpless in the face of your beauty [Amendment] Change the last paragraph in Rule 1.7.13 from: Upon performing this Action, the Player's Piece is moved directly to the cited Station. to: This Action allows a post-move Special Move to the cited Station. {Just bringing this into line with the rest of the "Special Move" rules.} MN Speaker -72dpi From Tue Jan 11 13:45:43 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 11 Jan 2000 21:49:35 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14536 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 21:48:55 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 21:48:55 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.136] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12899l-0000E2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:48:50 +0000 Message-ID: <00ef01bf5c7d$58475340$88847ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <85esc5$qt1d@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:30:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: What to play in the Rushton Memorial Lounge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Did we reach any decision on whether to open a new, > Baker-Street-only > > > Lounge, in the end? I quite forget. A proposal to change Rule 0.10.1 would be the way to get such a decision made. > > Well, for the record, I think the Rushton Memorial Lounge would be > quite > > suitable. As long as there's a Baker Street Game going on somewhere > in the > > Lounges, then I don't think there's a need to dedicate a specific > lounge to > > it. > > I don't know; I think it might be better to have a spare lounge purely > for Baker Street, keeping four for whatever "proper" Crescent we feel > like playing. Four seems to have been exactly the right number so far, > is all. Czech variant is more "proper" than Baker Street or a Long Game? Snow -"Single orphan first year camel." From Wed Jan 12 01:21:20 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 12 Jan 2000 09:25:09 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 2040 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2000 09:24:49 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2000 09:24:49 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 Jan 2000 09:24:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:24:47 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <85hh8v$9s1c@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00ec01bf5c7d$520e4ec0$88847ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Proposal 955 - Helpless in the face of your beauty [Amendment] > >Change the last paragraph in Rule 1.7.13 from: > > Upon performing this Action, the Player's Piece is moved directly to > the cited Station. > >to: > > This Action allows a post-move Special Move to the cited Station. > > {Just bringing this into line with the rest of the "Special Move" rules.} "Post-move Special Move"? How very Zen. Although the point may not be stated as rigorously as I think it might, in the ruleset, aren't Special Moves just a type of Move? I've always accepted Compass Tricks as being the great exception; that they permit a non-Move piece move. On reflection, though, we never *did* deal with the fact that they can be used to move directly to a Blocked, Home, or whatever Station. The way to fix it is, for my money, to have it as a pre-Move Action which permits a Special Move. But that's based on my impression of Special Moves never being anything more than replacement Moves - I'd be interested to see if other people's perception of them is any different... (Sorry I forgot to Vote and Propose this week, by the way. Still quite haven't gotten back into the swing of things after the holidays.) Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Jan 12 13:58:50 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 12 Jan 2000 22:02:43 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18357 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2000 22:02:09 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2000 22:02:09 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.194] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 128Vq5-0000yQ-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:02:03 +0000 Message-ID: <003f01bf5d48$575e75a0$c24c08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <85hh8v$9s1c@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:08:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Proposal 955 - Helpless in the face of your beauty [Amendment] > > > >Change the last paragraph in Rule 1.7.13 from: > > > > Upon performing this Action, the Player's Piece is moved directly to > > the cited Station. > > > >to: > > > > This Action allows a post-move Special Move to the cited Station. > > > > {Just bringing this into line with the rest of the "Special Move" > rules.} > > "Post-move Special Move"? How very Zen. Although the point may not be > stated as rigorously as I think it might, in the ruleset, aren't > Special Moves just a type of Move? As far as I know, yes. > I've always accepted Compass Tricks as being the great exception; that > they permit a non-Move piece move. They seem to be the same sort of thing as Straddles which aren't Moves. > The way to fix it is, for my money, to have it as a pre-Move Action > which permits a Special Move. Sounds sensible to me. Snow -I am the world's foremost expert on Satan worshipping as an alternative to food. From Dunx Thu Jan 13 01:25:52 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 13 Jan 2000 09:29:41 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25518 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2000 09:28:23 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2000 09:28:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 20299 invoked by uid 85); 13 Jan 2000 09:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 13 Jan 2000 09:28:18 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 5:28:18 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <85k5u5+71fe@eGroups.com> On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:08:03 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > > I've always accepted Compass Tricks as being the great exception; that > > they permit a non-Move piece move. > > They seem to be the same sort of thing as Straddles which aren't Moves. But Straddles are played in addition to a normal Move, whereas Compass Tricks are played in lieu of same. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Thu Jan 13 08:16:53 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 13 Jan 2000 16:20:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2262 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2000 16:18:42 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2000 16:18:42 -0000 Received: from opus (p462-24.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.137.152]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA16456 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:18:35 +0100 Message-ID: <01d401bf5de1$b8f741e0$83892fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:07:07 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Fw: airport ticket agent terminology (fraction) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds a bit like MC... ... : AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL - : A game played by airline pilots and air traffic : controllers. The game has no rules, and neither side : knows how it is played, but the goal is to prevent : flights from arriving in time for passengers to make : connecting flights. ... : >From the RHF archives as selected by Brad Templeton, Maddi Hausmann and : Jim Griffith. This newsgroup posts former jokes from the newsgroup : rec.humor.funny. Visit http://www.netfunny.com/rhf to browse the RHF pages : and archives on the web. : : Join and contribute to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) today. From Thu Jan 13 10:35:53 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 13 Jan 2000 18:39:47 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32361 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2000 18:08:52 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2000 18:08:52 -0000 Received: from [212.126.133.33] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 128ofy-000FYS-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:08:51 +0000 Message-ID: <002801bf5df0$eeeb5e80$21857ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <85k5u5+ojrh@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:06:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:08:03 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > > > I've always accepted Compass Tricks as being the great exception; that > > > they permit a non-Move piece move. > > > > They seem to be the same sort of thing as Straddles which aren't Moves. > > But Straddles are played in addition to a normal Move, whereas Compass Tricks > are played in lieu of same. Where does it say one can't play a normal Move and a compass wormhole thingermy in the same Turn? Snow -Radio controlled soul. From Fri Jan 14 01:24:41 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 14 Jan 2000 09:28:35 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 20666 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2000 09:28:07 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2000 09:28:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.130] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Jan 2000 09:28:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 01:28:01 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <85mq71$ngcj@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <002801bf5df0$eeeb5e80$21857ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > But Straddles are played in addition to a normal Move, whereas Compass Tricks > > are played in lieu of same. > > Where does it say one can't play a normal Move and a compass wormhole thingermy in the same Turn? Indeed; sorry Dunx, but it doesn't - it's just a post-Move Action that says "Upon performing this Action, the Player's Piece is moved directly to the cited Station." Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Jan 18 11:56:51 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 18 Jan 2000 20:00:48 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23796 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2000 19:48:54 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2000 19:48:54 -0000 Received: from [212.126.134.196] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12AecR-00032K-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:48:48 +0000 Message-ID: <000301bf61ec$abe12b60$c4867ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:00:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 37 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Seven ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 956 - Radiology [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.46 - Radiation, replace: A Player possessing a Remote Control may perform the Action of "Radiating ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, also known as the Controller. The Radiated Player, also known as the Controllee, gains a "Radio Clamp" Cursed Possession. with: A Player possessing a Remote Control may perform the Action of "Radiating ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, also known as the Controller. The Radiated Player, also known as the Controllee, gains a "Radio Clamp" Cursed Possession and is immediately transported to eir Home Station. and replace: If a Remote Control is destroyed, except by "De-Radiating", the corresponding Radio Clamp is destroyed, too. with: If a Remote Control is destroyed, any corresponding Radio Clamp is destroyed, too. [Who's going to Radiate anybody, only to have an explosion right in eir face?] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 957 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Trumpington's Variation \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Trumpington's Variation In Trumpington's Variation, the Winner is the first Player whose Piece rests at the same Station as the Goal Marker at the end of eir Turn. There are a number of Markers in Trumpington's Variation. Each Marker in Trumpington's Variation defines its location at any given time as the equivalent of the Station originally occupied by the Marker, as described in the Vanilla rules. So, if the Bank Marker is located at Bayswater, any Action defined in the Vanilla rules in regard to Bank, e.g. "[Silver to Gold]", is instead considered defined in regard to Bayswater, as long as that is where the Bank Marker is. Markers can be Shunted as if they were Token Stacks, but two Markers cannot occupy the same Station. Rule 2.x.2 - Markers The following table shows the Markers and their initial locations: +---------------+-------------------++---------------+-------------------+ | Marker | Location || Marker | Location | +---------------+-------------------++---------------+-------------------+ | Goal | MC || Lost Pty | Paddington | | Nelson | Charing Cross || Prison | Tower Hill | | Bank | Bank || Jekyll | Hyde Park Corner | | Trap | Dollis Hill || Stadium1 | Arsenal | | Stadium2 | Wembley Park || Stadium3 | Wimbledon | | Septimus | Seven Sisters || Holding | Euston | | Home* | ** || | | +---------------+-------------------++---------------+-------------------+ *One per Player **As defined by [Home:] A similar table shall be included in the GSD. Rule 2.x.3 - Closed? No, Moved! In Trumpington's Variation, Rule 1.13.4 is modified: A Move which ends at the (Closed) Goal is valid, if the Turn includes Shunting the Goal Marker to another Station. Similarly, a Move ending at the (Closed or Blocked) Home Station of a non-Actioning Player is valid, if the Turn contains a Shunt of the Home Marker to another Station. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 958 - ¤*?§||@£$ [Amendment] To Rule 1.11.7 - Sanctuary, add after the last sentence: A Player may perform the neutral Action of "[Defaming ]", where is a Holy Station. This causes to be considered a non-Holy Station until the firstcoming Sunday, at which time the Station again becomes Holy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Defaming ] Neut 1.11.7 5Bk (S1) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 959 - Blocking a line [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.20.3's last paragraph from: While a Line is in an Electrified State, all Stations on the said Line are considered Blocked if the Moving Player is carrying any Metallic Tokens at the start of eir Movement Phase. to While a Line is in an Electrified State, all Stations on that Line are considered Blocked if the Moving Player is carrying any Metallic Tokens at the start of eir Movement Phase and starts from, arrives at, or otherwise use the Electrified Line. For example, if the Northern Line is Electrified and Rushton has one or more Metallic Tokens, e may start eir move from Embankment, arrive at it, or move along the Circle Line from Temple to Westminster without being Blocked. However, e could not move from Charing Cross to Leicester Square directly (i.e. using the Northern Line). Garden, who has no Metallic Tokens, could do so in the same circumstances. {Comment: I think this is pretty much what we'd agree should happen. I'm just codifying it to make things more sensible in future. PJW} MN Speaker -Who has finally got MSDN flash. From Tue Jan 18 11:56:52 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 18 Jan 2000 20:00:49 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24151 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2000 19:48:54 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2000 19:48:54 -0000 Received: from [212.126.134.196] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12AecI-00032K-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:48:40 +0000 Message-ID: <000201bf61ec$a72a3300$c4867ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:59:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 36 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 36 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 955 Helpless in the face of your beauty 0 1 3 3 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 955 (Paul) - AGA - - AGA - - PAS - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 15 0 0 2 0 8 7 0 12 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 15 0 0 2 0 8 7 0 12 Halved 7 1 4 3 0 6 FOR votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 -3 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +0 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +2 +0 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +5 +5 +0 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +9 +9 +0 -1 +0 +12 Final 11 16 0 0 10 0 4 2 0 18 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Firing lava lamps at cows. From Tue Jan 18 19:51:01 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 03:54:59 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23554 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 03:54:30 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 03:54:30 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA02308; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:54:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002116; Wed, 19 Jan 00 13:53:56 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:53:56 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:53:54 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, January 13, 2000 3:28 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:08:03 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > > > I've always accepted Compass Tricks as being the great exception; > > > that > > > they permit a non-Move piece move. > > > > They seem to be the same sort of thing as Straddles which aren't Moves. > > But Straddles are played in addition to a normal Move, whereas Compass > Tricks > are played in lieu of same. OK, that proposal went down like a steel pancake. And, predictably, no comments to say where the problem lay, nor any real suggestions in the forum. Is there something peculiarly perverse about our little crowd, or is fixing something less important than pointing out it's broken? To the topic: to my understanding, Straddles and Compass Tricks take place after a normal move (which would include a pass). The post-move action translocates your Piece to the new location in the same way that a Special Move translocates it. The difference being that a Special Move replaces a normal move whereas Straddles and Compass Tricks (and, for that matter, Charge Tunnelling) are done after a normal move. You see, I consider the problem here to be exactly the same as when we first looked at codifying 'Special Moves'. The 'move' involved is assumed to be a 'jump' - the Piece does not traverse any line segments but is moved to the destination directly. I tend to like to codify these things; especially since there is an existing structure for this type of non-line-segment-bound move in a different context. As I see it, there's a couple of ways of going from here, depending on what you see the problem as being. We can either just leave it as is ("I see no problem here"), create a "Special Post-move" rule which says that these post-move actions do not traverse line segments ("divide and conquer"), or amend the "Special Move" rule to include the definition of post-move jumps ("combine and unite"). I do worry about leaving it as is, because I can think of a few post-move jump actions which would start to make things shaky unless we nailed it down with a suitable definition. What do people think? Which way do you want to go? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Tue Jan 18 22:41:21 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 06:45:18 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2376 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 06:45:00 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 06:45:00 -0000 Received: from opus (p444-47.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.175]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA17152 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:44:53 +0100 Message-ID: <00f601bf6248$90426160$af802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 06:39:59 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: : To the topic: to my understanding, Straddles and Compass Tricks take place : after a normal move (which would include a pass). The post-move action : translocates your Piece to the new location in the same way that a Special : Move translocates it. The difference being that a Special Move replaces a : normal move whereas Straddles and Compass Tricks (and, for that matter, : Charge Tunnelling) are done after a normal move. Basically, a Special Move *is* a Move, while a Straddle, Compass Trick or Charge Tunnel is not. If you created a new category (Translocations or whichever), and put these in there, and then defined this category as being like Special Moves in this and this way - well, I might vote for it. Ole From Tue Jan 18 22:59:23 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 07:03:20 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21935 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 07:02:37 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 07:02:37 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA06875; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:02:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma006842; Wed, 19 Jan 00 17:02:30 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:02:30 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:02:29 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, January 19, 2000 3:40 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Basically, a Special Move *is* a Move, while a Straddle, Compass Trick or > Charge Tunnel is not. > If you created a new category (Translocations or whichever), and put > these > in there, and then defined this category as being like Special Moves in > this and this way - well, I might vote for it. I have no problem with this idea. I'll submit it and see where things go. However, the similarity between Special Moves and this new category makes me wonder if they're not parts of a greater whole. E.g. Translocations are broken down in to Move-Translocations (what we call Special Moves - these replace normal moves) and Action-Translocations (the new category - taking place in addition to normal moves). On the one hand this looks like a lot more complex structure - which it isn't really. On the other hand, it may inspire people to write more neat fun game stuff. Bnurl, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Jan 19 13:08:31 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 21:12:28 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9116 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 21:12:21 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 21:12:21 -0000 Received: from [195.8.81.108] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12B2Op-000BMN-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <007601bf62c1$815b07a0$6c5108c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <000301bf61ec$abe12b60$c4867ed4@snow> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:43:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 37 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Proposal 957 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] I think examples might need to be excluded, but it looks interesting otherwise. > Rule 2.x.3 - Closed? No, Moved! > > In Trumpington's Variation, Rule 1.13.4 is modified: > A Move which ends at the (Closed) Goal is valid, if the Turn includes > Shunting the Goal Marker to another Station. I haven't checked, but if the line is soaped won't both the marker and piece end in the same place? > Proposal 958 - ¤*?§||@£$ [Amendment] OK > Proposal 959 - Blocking a line [Amendment] Good. Snow -Coke will replace petrol in the 21st century. From Wed Jan 19 13:10:38 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 21:14:36 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3722 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 21:14:30 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 21:14:30 -0000 Received: from [195.8.81.108] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12B2Qr-000BSN-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:14:26 +0000 Message-ID: <007901bf62c1$ccbfdf40$6c5108c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:07:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay wrote: > On Wednesday, January 19, 2000 3:40 PM, Ole Andersen > [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > > Basically, a Special Move *is* a Move, while a Straddle, Compass Trick or > > Charge Tunnel is not. Exactly. > > If you created a new category (Translocations or whichever), and put > > these > > in there, and then defined this category as being like Special Moves in > > this and this way - well, I might vote for it. > > I have no problem with this idea. I'll submit it and see where things go. Sounds good. > However, the similarity between Special Moves and this new category makes me > wonder if they're not parts of a greater whole. E.g. Translocations are > broken down in to Move-Translocations (what we call Special Moves - these > replace normal moves) and Action-Translocations (the new category - taking > place in addition to normal moves). Why not just make them all Special Moves (replace the normal Move) and scrap Straddles? I can see no reason why Charge tunneling and Compass tricks should be any different to Wilds and Walking and I'm sure we can live without Straddles (or create a straddle/walking hybrid). This way all piece Moving (excepting shunts) is in the Move phase of the Turn. Snow -I hate everything. From Wed Jan 19 13:10:40 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 21:14:38 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10907 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 21:14:32 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 21:14:32 -0000 Received: from [195.8.81.108] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12B2Qu-000BSN-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:14:28 +0000 Message-ID: <007a01bf62c1$ce38c3a0$6c5108c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:07:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay said: > On Thursday, January 13, 2000 3:28 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:08:03 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > > > > I've always accepted Compass Tricks as being the great exception; > > > > that > > > > they permit a non-Move piece move. > > > > > > They seem to be the same sort of thing as Straddles which aren't Moves. > > > > But Straddles are played in addition to a normal Move, whereas Compass > > Tricks > > are played in lieu of same. > > OK, that proposal went down like a steel pancake. And, predictably, no > comments to say where the problem lay, nor any real suggestions in the > forum. Is there something peculiarly perverse about our little crowd, or is > fixing something less important than pointing out it's broken? Sorry. There were Voting comments, I just forgot to forward them. It has been done now. I think, however, that Kevan pointed out what the problem was (it isn't a Special Move) and I posted an agreement, I'm not sure what futher comments you might want beyond this. The problem wasn't made clear at the time, so I couldn't really make suggestions for a solution. Snow -I now know what the problem is. From Wed Jan 19 14:21:14 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 22:25:12 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5664 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 22:24:13 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 22:24:13 -0000 Received: from opus (p437-019.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.146.147]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA16188 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:24:06 +0100 Message-ID: <036e01bf62cb$c60d3260$af802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <007901bf62c1$ccbfdf40$6c5108c3@snow> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:21:34 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow asked: : Why not just make them all Special Moves (replace the normal Move) and scrap Straddles? Well, I *like* Straddles. And there is a certain devious charm about making a Move, and then end up in an unexpected location. Ole From Wed Jan 19 14:21:15 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 19 Jan 2000 22:25:12 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9781 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 22:24:12 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 22:24:12 -0000 Received: from opus (p437-019.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.146.147]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA16177 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:24:05 +0100 Message-ID: <036d01bf62cb$c55db880$af802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <000301bf61ec$abe12b60$c4867ed4@snow> <007601bf62c1$815b07a0$6c5108c3@snow> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:16:27 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 37 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow asked: : > In Trumpington's Variation, Rule 1.13.4 is modified: : > A Move which ends at the (Closed) Goal is valid, if the Turn includes : > Shunting the Goal Marker to another Station. : : I haven't checked, but if the line is soaped won't both the marker and piece end in the same place? Drat! You are absolutely right. I forgot about soap. I withdraw 957. Comments are still welcome. Expect new version next week. Ole From Thu Jan 20 07:24:02 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 20 Jan 2000 15:28:00 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 22945 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2000 15:19:26 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2000 15:19:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.16] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jan 2000 15:19:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:19:19 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <86791n$a2fa@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <036e01bf62cb$c60d3260$af802fc3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : Why not just make them all Special Moves (replace the normal Move) and > scrap Straddles? > > Well, I *like* Straddles. And there is a certain devious charm about making > a Move, and then end up in an unexpected location. I've mixed feelings on the Straddle business - although they're quite boringly easy to pull off (the old "drop a Token, Straddle from it" trick), it's quite a pleasing little technique, and would leave something of a gap in the Ruleset were it removed. Its wording, apropos of legality, is a bit dodgy, though:- "Although not considered to pass through any intervening Stations, the Straddle Destination must be a valid Move with respect to Blocks and other such impediments." Because it's not a Move. A simple "You cannot Straddle to a Blocked or Closed Station" should be enough to plug the holes, though. (Charge Tunneling specifically plugs the "can't Tunnel to MC" one, but - curiously - no others, so you can Tunnel to another Player's Home Station. And although Compass Tricks naturally preclude trips to the Crescent, they permit broken Homes.) Whether Tunnelling and Tricking should be permitted as post-Move Piece manipulations, I'm not too bothered, but I think a could of exceptions to the rule are - unless pointless or awkward - quite healthy. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Thu Jan 20 23:18:15 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Jan 2000 07:22:13 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3903 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2000 07:21:58 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2000 07:21:58 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id RAA13861; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:21:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma013831; Fri, 21 Jan 00 17:21:48 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:21:48 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:21:44 +1000 Importance: low X-Priority: 5 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 36 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, January 21, 2000 1:19 AM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > I've mixed feelings on the Straddle business - although they're quite > boringly easy to pull off (the old "drop a Token, Straddle from it" > trick), it's quite a pleasing little technique, and would leave > something of a gap in the Ruleset were it removed. I've never had to use one, but then I've never forward planned enough for it. If I needed to, perhaps. Hmmmmm. > Because it's not a Move. A simple "You cannot Straddle to a Blocked or > Closed Station" should be enough to plug the holes, though. (Charge > Tunneling specifically plugs the "can't Tunnel to MC" one, but - > curiously - no others, so you can Tunnel to another Player's Home > Station. And although Compass Tricks naturally preclude trips to the > Crescent, they permit broken Homes.) Whether Tunnelling and Tricking > should be permitted as post-Move Piece manipulations, I'm not too > bothered, but I think a could of exceptions to the rule are - unless > pointless or awkward - quite healthy. The way I think is: there may be other conditions that are later invented that can stop a Action-Translocation (for want of a better word) - e.g. a station can be Flonged, meaning it can be traversed through normally and people can stop or start a normal move there, but other Special Moves and so forth are illegal. Having to rewrite every rule that does a Special Move would be tedious - this is why we formulated the Special Move name. Likewise, having a codification for an Action-Translocation gets similar gains in version control. Another one of those things that make me think that we need to overhaul the turn structure. I, for one, want to be able to perform actions during the middle of my Move. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Fri Jan 21 01:42:30 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Jan 2000 09:46:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18170 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2000 09:46:21 -0000 Received: from imu.egroups.com (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2000 09:46:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.7] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jan 2000 09:46:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:46:12 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8699t4$aj50@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Straddles, Mid-Move Actions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've never had to use one, but then I've never forward planned enough for > it. If I needed to, perhaps. Hmmmmm. Speaking mostly from personal experience, so I'm probably wrong, I think the "drop a Token, Straddle from it" trick - used when you really need to move an extra Station (effectively costing you a Black and an any-colour, which I suspect is fair enough) - probably accounts for ninety-five per cent of all Straddles. There's not really much forward planning you can do beyond that, with possible exception (as I think someone - Dunx? RiffRaff? - once pulled off) of piling some Tokens up near the Crescent to permit a hefty victory Straddle later in the game. > The way I think is: there may be other conditions that are later invented > that can stop a Action-Translocation (for want of a better word) - e.g. a > station can be Flonged, meaning it can be traversed through normally and > people can stop or start a normal move there, but other Special Moves and so > forth are illegal. Having to rewrite every rule that does a Special Move > would be tedious - this is why we formulated the Special Move name. Very true. Maybe the neatest solution would be to have "Special Moves" and "Translocations" ("Straddling counts as a Translocation"), so that Flonging could simply say "A Flonged Station may not be the target of a Special Move or Translocation." I fear we'd fall over ourselves if we tried to speak of Straddles as "Special Moves" when they're not Moves, or if we spoke of Wilds as "Translocations" when they were still Moves (and obey many critical Rules by dint of counting as Moves). > Likewise, having a codification for an Action-Translocation gets similar > gains in version control. I could speak this sentence in a meeting at work and I'm sure everyone would feign understanding. But yes, I see what you mean. > Another one of those things that make me think that we need to overhaul the > turn structure. > I, for one, want to be able to perform actions during the middle of my Move. Hmm. Although dramatic (swinging near to a Station to detonate a Suspect Package mid-Move, then rushing away), it makes the notation a lot more complicated ("[LV+3] Charing Cross [Blocking Camden Town from Euston]"?), and may give Players too much power - and thus too much to think about - through such freedom. Perhaps. I remember that we originally had some Actions that were playable mid-Move, but we shifted away from them over the years (beside a few hangovers such as "[Dropping a Black Token at Wherever]", which are meek enough to work). The precise reasons and arguments we used elude me, though. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Sun Jan 23 18:31:53 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 24 Jan 2000 02:35:53 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31997 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 02:35:44 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 02:35:44 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA12753; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:35:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012660; Mon, 24 Jan 00 12:35:33 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:35:33 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:35:32 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Straddles, Mid-Move Actions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, January 21, 2000 7:46 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > Very true. Maybe the neatest solution would be to have "Special Moves" > and "Translocations" ("Straddling counts as a Translocation"), so that > Flonging could simply say "A Flonged Station may not be the target of a > Special Move or Translocation." Sounds fine to me. I'll try to put it in Proposal-speak. > I fear we'd fall over ourselves if we tried to speak of Straddles as > "Special Moves" when they're not Moves, or if we spoke of Wilds as > "Translocations" when they were still Moves (and obey many critical > Rules by dint of counting as Moves). Oh, true. I'm just looking at a more general class of moves that don't pass through stations. But that's relatively beside the point. > > > Likewise, having a codification for an Action-Translocation gets > similar > > gains in version control. > > I could speak this sentence in a meeting at work and I'm sure everyone > would feign understanding. But yes, I see what you mean. What was I on? Who knows? > Hmm. Although dramatic (swinging near to a Station to detonate a > Suspect Package mid-Move, then rushing away), it makes the notation a > lot more complicated ("[LV+3] Charing Cross [Blocking Camden Town from > Euston]"?), and may give Players too much power - and thus too much to > think about - through such freedom. Perhaps. True - likewise, there are few things I could think of, apart from the trivial token collections, that needed to be done mid-move; mainly because this isn't an interrupt game like MtG, but a play-your-turn-out game. > I remember that we originally had some Actions that were playable > mid-Move, but we shifted away from them over the years (beside a few > hangovers such as "[Dropping a Black Token at Wherever]", which are > meek enough to work). The precise reasons and arguments we used elude > me, though. Just that there was very little that you could do _then_ that actually needed to be mid-move. Now, I feel that most of the Clamps are pretty pointless - no-one uses them because, in order to clamp someone, you open yourself up to retributive clamping pretty much all the time (hmmmmm - straddling or compass work...) If you could clamp someone mid-move, it would be a lot more fun, but then everyone would either go around with Knerdling Sticks or multiple Clamps as soon as they came within zone 1... Save to say that there's nothing I can think of in the current ruleset that really benefits from being able to be played mid-turn. However, it's an avenue we should consider occasionally to add new elements to the ruleset. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Sun Jan 23 20:56:58 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 24 Jan 2000 05:00:57 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12193 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 04:58:12 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 04:58:12 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA02853; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002792; Mon, 24 Jan 00 14:58:03 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:03 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:01 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People, While the more erudite of us faff around with elegant suggestions on what next to play, can we please have a game of Baker Street in the Rushton Memorial Lounge as soon as possible. Put my name down for it please! Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Mon Jan 24 05:32:29 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 24 Jan 2000 13:36:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 25696 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 13:36:05 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 13:36:05 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.7] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2000 13:36:05 -0000 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:35:58 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <86hkfu$ir6o@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While the more erudite of us faff around with elegant suggestions on what > next to play, can we please have a game of Baker Street in the Rushton > Memorial Lounge as soon as possible. Put my name down for it please! I think I'd prefer a Great Bear game in the Rushton Memorial Lounge (I'll try and get the Variant proposed for tomorrow), with a new Lounge (the Holmes?) set up for perpetual newbie-soothing Baker Street. Coinciding with a recruitment drive if we can think of anywhere to shout from. Perhaps. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Jan 24 05:41:25 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 24 Jan 2000 13:45:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1268 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 13:45:18 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 13:45:18 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.24] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2000 13:45:18 -0000 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:45:16 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <86hl1c$lrd@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Straddles, Mid-Move Actions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now, I feel that most of the Clamps are pretty > pointless - no-one uses them because, in order to clamp someone, you open > yourself up to retributive clamping pretty much all the time (hmmmmm - > straddling or compass work...) I disagree, because retributive Clamping *also* leaves you open to, er, retributive Clamping. If you hang around to Clamp someone back, they might Clamp you again. Or at least Shunt or otherwise annoy you. Personally I only Clamp people if I know they're too short on Tokens to retaliate, or that I could get rid of a given Clamp quite easily. I don't think Clamping's become that rare, has it? > If you could clamp someone mid-move, it > would be a lot more fun, but then everyone would either go around with > Knerdling Sticks or multiple Clamps as soon as they came within zone 1... Perhaps. Although an amendment to bring Clamps in line with Suspect Packages (droppable at any Station you've passed through this Turn) might be worth trying, just to see how it affects things. > Save to say that there's nothing I can think of in the current ruleset that > really benefits from being able to be played mid-turn. However, it's an > avenue we should consider occasionally to add new elements to the ruleset. Well, I think the Suspect Package and Token Dropping Actions are precedent enough; proof that a "do something at a Station you've passed through" is a perfectly good way to implement pseudo-mid-Move Actions (the only real difference being that you can pay for them with Tokens you gain during your Move). Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Jan 24 08:03:46 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 24 Jan 2000 16:07:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 9829 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 16:07:42 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 16:07:42 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2000 16:07:42 -0000 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:07:40 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <86htcc$o355@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <86hkfu$ir6o@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think I'd prefer a Great Bear game in the Rushton Memorial Lounge > (I'll try and get the Variant proposed for tomorrow), 'Tis done, to spare anyone else the anguish or worry. Nothing spectacular; just the nuts and bolts of it, and a "John and Jean" Cascade to replace Parks and Greens. Not sure what else will need fixing, really. We'll see. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Jan 24 12:21:31 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 24 Jan 2000 20:25:31 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21819 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 20:25:15 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 20:25:15 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.182] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Cq2y-000Mle-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:25:13 +0000 Message-ID: <000401bf66a8$bce31200$b6847ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <86hkfu$ir6o@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:03:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keavn: > PaulWay: > > While the more erudite of us faff around with elegant suggestions on > what > > next to play, can we please have a game of Baker Street in the Rushton > > Memorial Lounge as soon as possible. Put my name down for it please! > > I think I'd prefer a Great Bear game in the Rushton Memorial Lounge > (I'll try and get the Variant proposed for tomorrow), with a new Lounge > (the Holmes?) set up for perpetual newbie-soothing Baker Street. > Coinciding with a recruitment drive if we can think of anywhere to > shout from. Perhaps. I'll side with PaulWay here. I'd rather get a Baker Street game up and running. We can move it into the Baker Street lounge should one be created. The other thing I would say is straight Baker Street or annotated (San Fransico) Baker Street? Annotated might be better from the newbie POV, but reduces the competativeness. Names for Baker Street game in Rushton Memorial Lounge (please indicated preference for SF or not): PaulWay Snow (SF) Snow -Connected during peak time and only paying 1ppm. From Tue Jan 25 01:00:15 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 25 Jan 2000 09:04:15 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18778 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2000 09:03:52 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2000 09:03:52 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.124] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2000 09:03:41 -0000 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:03:36 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <86jot8$qtlo@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000401bf66a8$bce31200$b6847ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'll side with PaulWay here. I'd rather get a Baker Street game up and running. We can move it into > the Baker Street lounge should one be created. That's fair enough, I suppose. > The other thing I would say is straight Baker Street or annotated (San Fransico) Baker Street? > Annotated might be better from the newbie POV, but reduces the competativeness. I think playing one game of San Francisco might be helpful, to nail up for future reference. Count me in. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Tue Jan 25 12:21:05 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 25 Jan 2000 20:25:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 21590 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2000 20:24:31 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2000 20:24:31 -0000 Received: from opus (p433-102.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.144.230]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA12778 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:24:26 +0100 Message-ID: <024001bf6772$09127340$42d552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <86hkfu$ir6o@eGroups.com> <000401bf66a8$bce31200$b6847ed4@snow> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:58:11 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... : Names for Baker Street game in Rushton Memorial Lounge (please indicated preference for SF or not): : : PaulWay : Snow (SF) Kevan (SF) Ole (SF) From Tue Jan 25 12:44:32 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 25 Jan 2000 20:48:32 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14865 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2000 20:48:26 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2000 20:48:26 -0000 Received: from [212.126.137.185] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12DCrm-000I9l-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:47:10 +0000 Message-ID: <000201bf6774$f7587520$b9897ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:56:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 37 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 37 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 956 Radiology 1 1 0 3 Quorum 957 Trumpington's Variation -- Withdrawn -- 958 ¤*?§||@£$ 2 0 0 3 Quorum 959 Blocking a line 1 1 0 3 Quorum ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 956 (Ole) - - - - - - - FOR - PAS 957 (Ole) -- Withdrawn -- 958 (Ole) - - - - - - - FOR - FOR 959 (Paul) - - - - - - - PAS - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - 957 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - 956 - 959 ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - 958 - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - 957 - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 16 0 0 10 0 4 2 0 18 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 16 0 0 10 0 4 2 0 18 Halved 8 5 2 1 0 9 FOR votes +0 +0 +3 +1 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +2 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +5 +0 +0 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +0 +3 +10 +0 +5 Final 11 8 0 0 5 0 5 11 0 14 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -Train car rain carrot tommorow. From Tue Jan 25 12:44:36 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 25 Jan 2000 20:48:37 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14944 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2000 20:48:30 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2000 20:48:30 -0000 Received: from [212.126.137.185] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12DCrn-000I9l-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:47:11 +0000 Message-ID: <000301bf6774$f818b7e0$b9897ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:00:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Eight ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] Action: [Charge-Swapping with ] Time: Post-move Duration: 20 minutes Cost: 1 Silver token. The Charge-Swapping Action allows a Player to swap eir Piece with the Piece of another Player. It can only be performed when the two Pieces are at Stations with equal Current values (see Rule 1.17.8). The Player performing the Action needs to sacrifice a Silver Token in order to 'conduct' the charge. Upon completion of this Action, the Players swap Charges. Example: Brooke-Taylor has eir Piece situated at Oval and has a Charge of -20. Garden moves to Shoreditch and ends up with a Charge of +15. Garden Charge-Swap with Brooke Taylor; after this, Brooke-Taylor's Piece is at Shoreditch and Garden's is at Oval. Brooke-Taylor and Garden end up with Charges of +15 and -20 respectively. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 961 - Parallellity [Special Ruleset] /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Parallellity \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Parallellity Parallellity is a version of Free for All, so the rules in Section 2.12 apply to Parallellity too. A special feature of Parallellity is that each Player has eir own Game Time, which is advanced as part of eir Turn. Actions advancing the Game Time, advance only the Game Time of the Actioning Player. Rule 2.x.2 - Non Sequitur A Player, whose Game Time is more advanced than all other Players' Game Times, may not take a Turn. {A possible layout of a part of the GSD: +- Wild -----------------------------------------------------------+ + | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ +Possessions-+-----------------------------------------++-- Time --+ | RiffRaff | || Mon 0925 | | PaulWay | Zone 2 Pass || Tue 0800 | | Ole | Hat (*B*) || Tue 0735 | +------------+-----------------------------------------++----------+ } ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 962 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Trumpington's Variation \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Trumpington's Variation In Trumpington's Variation, the Winner is the first Player whose Piece rests at the same Station as the Goal Marker at the end of eir Turn. There are a number of Markers in Trumpington's Variation. Each Marker in Trumpington's Variation defines its location at any given time as the equivalent of the Station originally occupied by the Marker, as described in the Vanilla rules. { So, if the Bank Marker is located at Bayswater, any Action defined in the Vanilla rules in regard to Bank, e.g. "[Silver to Gold]", is instead considered defined in regard to Bayswater, as long as that is where the Bank Marker is. } Markers can be Shunted as if they were Token Stacks, but two Markers cannot occupy the same Station. Markers can not be Dead-End Shunted. Rule 2.x.2 - Markers The following table shows the Markers and their initial locations: +----------------+------------------++----------------+------------------+ | Marker | Location || Marker | Location | +----------------+------------------++----------------+------------------+ | Goal | MC || Lost Pty | Paddington | | Nelson | Charing Cross || Prison | Tower Hill | | Bank | Bank || Jekyll | Hyde Park Corner | | Trap | Dollis Hill || Stadium1 | Arsenal | | Stadium2 | Wembley Park || Stadium3 | Wimbledon | | Septimus | Seven Sisters || Holding | Euston | | Home()*| ** || | | +----------------+------------------++----------------+------------------+ *One per Player **As defined by [Home:] A similar table shall be included in the GSD. Rule 2.x.3 - Closed? No, Moved! In Trumpington's Variation, Rule 1.13.4 is modified: A Move which ends at the (Closed) Goal is valid, if the Turn ends with the Goal Marker and the Actioning Player's Piece at different Stations. Similarly, a Move ending at the (Closed or Blocked) Home Station of a non-Actioning Player is valid, if the Turn ends with the Home Marker and the Actioning Player's Piece at different Stations. {{You may want to move the comment from the middle of the text to the end.}} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 963 - Translocation [Multiple] Part 1 - The Rule Enact a Rule in the 1.5 section called "Translocation" which states: An Action designated as a Translocation is one that allows the current Player to move eir Piece to a new station outside of the normal Move phase. This is done by directly shifting the Piece to the new location - the Piece does not pass through Stations, but the movement may still be invalidated by other Rules. The shift of the Piece takes place immediately after the completion of the Translocation Action. Part 2 - The amendments Amend Rule 1.7.6 ("Straddling Nancy") so that its first sentence reads: "After Moving, a Player may Straddle from a Station that has a Token Stack - this permits em to make an immediate Translocation to another Station." Remove the paragraph in Rule 1.7.6 that reads: "Although not considered to pass through any intervening Stations, the Straddle Destination must be a valid Move with respect to Blocks and other such impediments." and add the following sentence to the preceding paragraph: "In addition, the Straddle Destination must not be Blocked, Closed, or another Player's Home Station." {This just tidies up the wording a bit.} Amend the last paragraph of Rule 1.7.13 ("Stupid Compass Tricks") to read: "This Action allows an immediate Translocation to the specified Station." Amend the second-last paragraph of Rune 1.19.4 ("Fifth Coulomb") to read: "This Action allows an immediate Translocation to the specified Station." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 964 - Your choice - take it or leave it [Amendment] Amend the new rule created by the Proposal entitled "Translocation" to add the paragraph "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have any other impediment which would prevent an ordinary Move to that Station from being performed (although not necessarily by the Player performing the Translocation." {I thought I'd put this in, but then thought that some people might think it too restrictive. So I put it in a separate Proposal so you could choose which implementation you wanted.} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 965 - Another choice for you to make [Amendment] Amend Rule 1.5.1 ("Keeping the Piece") by adding the following paragraph: "Outside eir Movement Phase, no other movement of the Player's Piece is allowed during eir Turn apart from Translocation Actions." {Same again - you choose whether you want this or not.} ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 966 - The Great Bear [Special Ruleset] 1. Nietzche via Jupiter [Enactment] Mornington Crescent may be played using the "Great Bear" Tube-map poster. Map URL: http://members.tripod.com/pansiecola/greatbear/boogabear.htm Goal : Humphrey Bogart (FA) Bank : Robert Maxwell (JN) Loop : Benny Hill (TC) Line Codes: Engineers (EN) Louis (LO) Philosophers (PH) Explorers (EX) Planets (PL) Journalists (JN) Footballers (FT) Musicians (MU) Film Actors (FA) Saints (ST) Italian Artists (IA) Sinologues (SI) Thirty Comedians (TC) Meridian: Gina Lollobrigida (FA/JN) Zones : None 2. Special Rules [Enactment] - Instead of a "Parks and Greens Cascade", the Great Bear uses a "John and Jean Cascade", terminable by a Robert Station. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 967 - A Time for Clamps [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.2 (Actions), make "[Magno-Clamping ]" a post-Move Action, bringing it in line with the other Clamps. { I think all of the Clamps need to be applied post-Move, to avoid a Clampee Clamping you back and running away, making - as Paul says in the Discussion Lounge - the whole business a bit pointless. The Magno-Clamp just seems to have been Proposed carelessly. By me. Sorry about that. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Proposal 968 - Slightly Down With Poll Tax [Amendment] In Rule 1.7.2 (Actions), halve the cost of the "[Poll Tax]" Action to one Gold Token. { Fairer, I think, particularly since you'll lose another Gold to the Tax if you've got more than one, anyway. } ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MN Speaker -Flogging a lava lamp From Tue Jan 25 13:40:18 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 25 Jan 2000 21:44:19 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4058 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2000 21:43:58 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2000 21:43:58 -0000 Received: from opus (p454-65.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.133.193]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA05799 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:43:54 +0100 Message-ID: <02e401bf677d$229c3a20$42d552c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <000301bf6774$f818b7e0$b9897ed4@snow> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:39:59 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] : : Action: : [Charge-Swapping with ] Ah... so Charge-Swapping is a Translocation! :-) : Proposal 963 - Translocation [Multiple] Nice. Clearish. : : Proposal 964 - Your choice - take it or leave it [Amendment] : : Amend the new rule created by the Proposal entitled "Translocation" to add : the paragraph : : "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have any : other impediment which would prevent an ordinary Move to that Station from : being performed (although not necessarily by the Player performing the : Translocation." Just picking a nit: 'must not' = 'need not' 'may not' = !'must' or so I remember my English classes. I may be wrong, of course. : : Proposal 965 - Another choice for you to make [Amendment] : : Amend Rule 1.5.1 ("Keeping the Piece") by adding the following paragraph: : : "Outside eir Movement Phase, no other movement of the Player's Piece is : allowed during eir Turn apart from Translocation Actions." : So if it isn't an explicit Translocation, it can't be done? Generally nice, but invalidating Charge-Swapping, isn't it? : Proposal 966 - The Great Bear [Special Ruleset] : : 1. Nietzche via Jupiter [Enactment] : : Mornington Crescent may be played using the "Great Bear" Tube-map poster. : : Map URL: http://members.tripod.com/pansiecola/greatbear/boogabear.htm : : Goal : Humphrey Bogart (FA) Well, I had thought of Gottfried Daimler. It has the 'X'. : : Bank : Robert Maxwell (JN) Nope. Maxwell is a Louis. This Line is named after all the Louises, especially in the Hainault Loop. : Meridian: Gina Lollobrigida (FA/JN) Gina is a Louis, too. : : Zones : None Zones could be: 1: C3-D7 2: B2-E8, except C3-D7 3: A1-F9, except B2-E8 or such. : : 2. Special Rules [Enactment] : : - Instead of a "Parks and Greens Cascade", the Great Bear uses a "John : and Jean Cascade", terminable by a Robert Station. Nice. : : Proposal 967 - A Time for Clamps [Amendment] : : In Rule 1.7.2 (Actions), make "[Magno-Clamping ]" a post-Move Action, : bringing it in line with the other Clamps. Sounds reasonable. : Proposal 968 - Slightly Down With Poll Tax [Amendment] : : In Rule 1.7.2 (Actions), halve the cost of the "[Poll Tax]" Action to one : Gold Token. : : { Fairer, I think, particularly since you'll lose another Gold to the Tax if : you've got more than one, anyway. } Sounds fair, too. Ole From Wed Jan 26 01:17:31 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 26 Jan 2000 09:21:32 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 3017 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2000 09:21:15 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2000 09:21:15 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.24] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2000 09:21:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:21:13 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <86mea9$14fo@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000201bf6774$f7587520$b9897ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 37 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Mornington Nomic > Voting results for Week 37 Year 3 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results > ------------------------------------------------------------ > 956 Radiology 1 1 0 3 Quorum > 957 Trumpington's Variation -- Withdrawn -- > 958 =A4*?=A7||@=A3$ 2 0 0 3 Quorum > 959 Blocking a line 1 1 0 3 Quorum > ------------------------------------------------------------ Cuh. I thought I'd voted when I hadn't. Hopeless of me. Sorry about that. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Jan 26 02:28:06 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 26 Jan 2000 10:32:07 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22698 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2000 10:31:35 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2000 10:31:35 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.230] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12DPja-0002aR-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:31:34 +0000 Message-ID: <007d01bf67e8$1c2dcb20$e64f08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <000301bf6774$f818b7e0$b9897ed4@snow> <02e401bf677d$229c3a20$42d552c3@opus> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:24:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole wrote: > : Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] > : > : Action: > : [Charge-Swapping with ] > > Ah... so Charge-Swapping is a Translocation! :-) Not really the pieces stay where they are. > : "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have any > : other impediment which would prevent an ordinary Move to that Station > from > : being performed (although not necessarily by the Player performing the > : Translocation." > > Just picking a nit: > 'must not' = 'need not' Huh? They're not the same! > 'may not' = !'must' Sounds right. > : Proposal 966 - The Great Bear [Special Ruleset] > : Goal : Humphrey Bogart (FA) > Well, I had thought of Gottfried Daimler. It has the 'X'. I think people have been playing MC from before it gained an 'X'. Have they? > : > : Zones : None > > Zones could be: > 1: C3-D7 > 2: B2-E8, except C3-D7 > 3: A1-F9, except B2-E8 > or such. Would probably work. Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Wed Jan 26 02:28:06 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 26 Jan 2000 10:32:07 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12305 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2000 10:31:37 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2000 10:31:37 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.230] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12DPjb-0002aR-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:31:36 +0000 Message-ID: <007e01bf67e8$1d4380e0$e64f08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <000301bf6774$f818b7e0$b9897ed4@snow> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:26:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] > > Action: > [Charge-Swapping with ] > Time: Post-move > Duration: 20 minutes > Cost: 1 Silver token. > > The Charge-Swapping Action allows a Player to swap eir Piece with the Piece OK. But it might be better with a higher cost and the need to be at stations with the same current removed though. > Proposal 961 - Parallellity [Special Ruleset] > I like this, maybe it should be included in the standard Free for All rules. > Proposal 962 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] Good. > > {{You may want to move the comment from the middle of the text to the > end.}} Oh, I think that was for me. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Proposal 963 - Translocation [Multiple] > Remove the paragraph in Rule 1.7.6 that reads: > > "Although not considered to pass through any intervening Stations, the > Straddle Destination must be a valid Move with respect to Blocks and other > such impediments." > > and add the following sentence to the preceding paragraph: > > "In addition, the Straddle Destination must not be Blocked, Closed, or > another Player's Home Station." > > {This just tidies up the wording a bit.} It may be tidyer, but is it right? What about Bulkheaded Stations for example. I prefer the more general wording. > > Proposal 964 - Your choice - take it or leave it [Amendment] > > Amend the new rule created by the Proposal entitled "Translocation" to add > the paragraph > > "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have any > other impediment which would prevent an ordinary Move to that Station from > being performed (although not necessarily by the Player performing the > Translocation." What about Moves to Home Stations; the owner can Move to eir Home Station, but other should not. > > Proposal 965 - Another choice for you to make [Amendment] > > Amend Rule 1.5.1 ("Keeping the Piece") by adding the following paragraph: > > "Outside eir Movement Phase, no other movement of the Player's Piece is > allowed during eir Turn apart from Translocation Actions." Some forms of shunts (shunts on a soaped line maybe others) move a Players piece. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Proposal 966 - The Great Bear [Special Ruleset] > Bank : Robert Maxwell (JN) I would probably have made Karl Marx the Bank, but then I'm me. > > Proposal 967 - A Time for Clamps [Amendment] Fine > > Proposal 968 - Slightly Down With Poll Tax [Amendment] > > In Rule 1.7.2 (Actions), halve the cost of the "[Poll Tax]" Action to one > Gold Token. > > { Fairer, I think, particularly since you'll lose another Gold to the Tax if > you've got more than one, anyway. } I not sure. Poll Tax is a very powerful Action. The cost is 2Go presently, if a Player has 2Go then they will be able to use the Acton and won't have a 3rd to lose. If they have 3Go then they would be able to win in most cases anyway. Poll Tax is too effective a way to scupper a win. If one does have a 3rd Go and haven't yet been able to win, one can just change the 3rd into bronzes and minimize the loss. Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Dunx Thu Jan 27 08:19:03 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 27 Jan 2000 16:23:05 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32141 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2000 16:22:56 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 16:22:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 22492 invoked by uid 85); 27 Jan 2000 16:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 16:22:54 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:22:53 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 37 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <86prd9+e6rj@eGroups.com> On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:21:13 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > Cuh. I thought I'd voted when I hadn't. Hopeless of me. Sorry about > that. Thus sums up my own poor showing, also. Bit of a rum do all roung, in fact (with the obvious exception). -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Dunx Thu Jan 27 08:46:50 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 27 Jan 2000 16:50:51 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 30573 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2000 16:50:41 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 16:50:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 8103 invoked by uid 85); 27 Jan 2000 16:50:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 16:50:40 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:50:39 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <86pt1b+fjbd@eGroups.com> > > Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] > > > > Action: > > [Charge-Swapping with ] > > Time: Post-move > > Duration: 20 minutes > > Cost: 1 Silver token. > > > > The Charge-Swapping Action allows a Player to swap eir Piece with the > Piece > > OK. But it might be better with a higher cost and the need to be at > stations with the same current > removed though. Doesn't that rather negate the point of the Proposal? The way I read it was as a specialised for of Charge Tunneling, where the Piece at the other end is exchanged with the Acting Piece. > > Proposal 963 - Translocation [Multiple] > > > Remove the paragraph in Rule 1.7.6 that reads: > > > > "Although not considered to pass through any intervening Stations, the > > Straddle Destination must be a valid Move with respect to Blocks and > other > > such impediments." > > > > and add the following sentence to the preceding paragraph: > > > > "In addition, the Straddle Destination must not be Blocked, Closed, or > > another Player's Home Station." > > > > {This just tidies up the wording a bit.} > > It may be tidyer, but is it right? What about Bulkheaded Stations for > example. I prefer the more > general wording. Actually so do I, but it's not wrong - Bulkheaded Stations are considered Blocked, whereas Closed Stations are not (since a Piece may pass through a Closed Station), so it is probably worth mentioning explicitly. > > Proposal 964 - Your choice - take it or leave it [Amendment] > > > > Amend the new rule created by the Proposal entitled "Translocation" to > add > > the paragraph > > > > "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have > any > > other impediment which would prevent an ordinary Move to that Station > from > > being performed (although not necessarily by the Player performing the > > Translocation." > > What about Moves to Home Stations; the owner can Move to eir Home > Station, but other should not. Yes, it does seem rather ambiguously worded - something like "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have any other impediment which would prevent a Move to that Station from being performed." ... might be better. I've removed the 'ordinary' because Special Moves are governed by impediments too, if I remember correctly. I can see that there might be an argument that a Move cannot be made by the Actioning Player because e has insufficient LV to cover the distance thus implying that the Translocation is illegal, but I think this is less difficult than permitting Translocations to Home Stations because the Home's owning Player can Move there. (the counter-argument is that the hypothetical Move is being brought in to demonstrate that it is only rendered illegitimate by the impediment, and that LV is simply not relevant) Maybe we need a single definition for impediment. > > Proposal 965 - Another choice for you to make [Amendment] > > > > Amend Rule 1.5.1 ("Keeping the Piece") by adding the following > paragraph: > > > > "Outside eir Movement Phase, no other movement of the Player's Piece is > > allowed during eir Turn apart from Translocation Actions." > > Some forms of shunts (shunts on a soaped line maybe others) move a > Players piece. Quite so, except that this extra clause limits itself to movement in the Moving Player's Turn. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Thu Jan 27 13:35:49 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 27 Jan 2000 21:39:51 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18641 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2000 21:39:21 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 21:39:21 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.73] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12DwdK-000Bqe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:39:19 +0000 Message-ID: <008101bf690e$8cea7ee0$498d7ed4@snow> From: "Ichabod Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <86pt1b+njv8@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:45:28 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx said: > > OK. But it might be better with a higher cost and the need to be at > > stations with the same current > > removed though. > > Doesn't that rather negate the point of the Proposal? The way I read it was > as a specialised for of Charge Tunneling, where the Piece at the other end > is exchanged with the Acting Piece. I suppose so. > > > "In addition, the Straddle Destination must not be Blocked, Closed, or > > > another Player's Home Station." > > > > > > {This just tidies up the wording a bit.} > > > > It may be tidyer, but is it right? What about Bulkheaded Stations for > > example. I prefer the more > > general wording. > > Actually so do I, but it's not wrong - Bulkheaded Stations are considered > Blocked, whereas Closed Stations are not (since a Piece may pass through a > Closed Station), so it is probably worth mentioning explicitly. OK, Bukheaded Stations are covered. But if the Player is clamped or there is a loop or the bridges are up or some new impedament is created it just isn't general enough. > > > being performed (although not necessarily by the Player performing the > > > Translocation." > > > > What about Moves to Home Stations; the owner can Move to eir Home > > Station, but other should not. > > Yes, it does seem rather ambiguously worded - something like > > "The Station thus Translocated to must not be Blocked, Closed or have any > > other impediment which would prevent a Move to that Station from being > performed." > > ... might be better. I've removed the 'ordinary' because Special Moves are > governed by impediments too, if I remember correctly. > > I can see that there might be an argument that a Move cannot be made by the > Actioning Player because e has insufficient LV to cover the distance thus > implying that the Translocation is illegal, but I think this is less > difficult than permitting Translocations to Home Stations because the > Home's owning Player can Move there. > > (the counter-argument is that the hypothetical Move is being brought in to > demonstrate that it is only rendered illegitimate by the impediment, and > that LV is simply not relevant) > > Maybe we need a single definition for impediment. Excellent idea. > > > Proposal 965 - Another choice for you to make [Amendment] > > > > > > Amend Rule 1.5.1 ("Keeping the Piece") by adding the following > > paragraph: > > > > > > "Outside eir Movement Phase, no other movement of the Player's Piece is > > > > allowed during eir Turn apart from Translocation Actions." > > > > Some forms of shunts (shunts on a soaped line maybe others) move a > > Players piece. > > Quite so, except that this extra clause limits itself to movement in the > Moving Player's Turn. Yes, but shunts on a soaped line move both the shunter and shuntee. Ichabod Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Thu Jan 27 17:17:48 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 01:21:50 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12586 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 01:20:34 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 01:20:34 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA29071; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:19:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029021; Fri, 28 Jan 00 11:19:50 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:19:50 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:19:49 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Baker Street, Rushton Lounge, Right now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, January 26, 2000 5:58 AM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > ... > : Names for Baker Street game in Rushton Memorial Lounge (please > : indicated > preference for SF or not): > : > : PaulWay I'll play SF if people want to, but it's not necessary to my enjoyment. Codpieces, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Jan 27 17:24:27 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 01:28:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 20788 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 01:26:57 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 01:26:57 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA02418; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:26:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002188; Fri, 28 Jan 00 11:26:28 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:26:28 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:26:25 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 37 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, January 26, 2000 7:21 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > Cuh. I thought I'd voted when I hadn't. Hopeless of me. Sorry about > that. This is why, when I'm in doubt, I check for the mail that the voting form sends me. Bravo again to Dunx for setting that up. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Jan 27 17:31:17 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 01:35:19 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27375 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 01:30:15 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 01:30:15 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA04131; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:30:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma003997; Fri, 28 Jan 00 11:29:52 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:29:52 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:29:51 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:25 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > Ole wrote: > > > : Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] > > : > > : Action: > > : [Charge-Swapping with ] > > > > Ah... so Charge-Swapping is a Translocation! :-) > > Not really the pieces stay where they are. Not so. The Charge-swap swaps both Pieces and Charges. It is a Translocation. I'll put an amendment in if it passes. > > Just picking a nit: > > 'must not' = 'need not' > > Huh? They're not the same! Indeed so. "I must not hit Ole" != "I need not hit Ole" - the former implies a restriction, the latter implies a choice. Compare "I must not hit Ole if I want to avoid punishment" to "I need not hit Ole if I want to avoid punishment". Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Jan 27 17:33:59 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 01:38:01 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29266 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 01:32:26 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 01:32:26 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA05238; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:32:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma005136; Fri, 28 Jan 00 11:32:07 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:32:07 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:32:05 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:27 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] > > > > The Charge-Swapping Action allows a Player to swap eir Piece with the > > Piece > > OK. But it might be better with a higher cost and the need to be at > stations with the same current removed though. Hmmm - that's an altogether separate move - effectively allowing you to swap pieces with another player from anywhere, no? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Thu Jan 27 17:39:33 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 01:43:34 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3671 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 01:39:52 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 01:39:52 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA09063; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:39:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma009009; Fri, 28 Jan 00 11:39:44 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:39:44 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:39:42 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:51 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > Maybe we need a single definition for impediment. I think this is the generally preferable solution. We need some method of saying simply "The station can be a valid destination of a move" and "The station can be moved through". The latter is probably "Blocked" (as in "Bulkheaded stations are considered Blocked"); the former could perhaps be called "Barred" (as in barred shut). So a proposal to define Blocked and Barred and then go through the ruleset defining appropriately ("A Closed Station is considered Barred", etc.). Sound OK? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Fri Jan 28 03:41:08 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 11:45:05 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5999 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 11:42:42 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 11:42:42 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.5] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12E9nS-0002jx-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:42:38 +0000 Message-ID: <011b01bf6984$5bd134e0$05847ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:36:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Reprops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ============================================================================== Reproposals from Year 3 Week 37 ============================================================================== Reproposal 969 - Radiology [Amendment] In Rule 1.4.46 - Radiation, replace: A Player possessing a Remote Control may perform the Action of "Radiating ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, also known as the Controller. The Radiated Player, also known as the Controllee, gains a "Radio Clamp" Cursed Possession. with: A Player possessing a Remote Control may perform the Action of "Radiating ", where is a Player who shares a Station and Line with the Actioning Player, also known as the Controller. The Radiated Player, also known as the Controllee, gains a "Radio Clamp" Cursed Possession and is immediately transported to eir Home Station. and replace: If a Remote Control is destroyed, except by "De-Radiating", the corresponding Radio Clamp is destroyed, too. with: If a Remote Control is destroyed, any corresponding Radio Clamp is destroyed, too. [Who's going to Radiate anybody, only to have an explosion right in eir face?] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reproposal 970 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 2.x - Trumpington's Variation \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 2.x.1 - Trumpington's Variation In Trumpington's Variation, the Winner is the first Player whose Piece rests at the same Station as the Goal Marker at the end of eir Turn. There are a number of Markers in Trumpington's Variation. Each Marker in Trumpington's Variation defines its location at any given time as the equivalent of the Station originally occupied by the Marker, as described in the Vanilla rules. So, if the Bank Marker is located at Bayswater, any Action defined in the Vanilla rules in regard to Bank, e.g. "[Silver to Gold]", is instead considered defined in regard to Bayswater, as long as that is where the Bank Marker is. Markers can be Shunted as if they were Token Stacks, but two Markers cannot occupy the same Station. Rule 2.x.2 - Markers The following table shows the Markers and their initial locations: +---------------+-------------------++---------------+-------------------+ | Marker | Location || Marker | Location | +---------------+-------------------++---------------+-------------------+ | Goal | MC || Lost Pty | Paddington | | Nelson | Charing Cross || Prison | Tower Hill | | Bank | Bank || Jekyll | Hyde Park Corner | | Trap | Dollis Hill || Stadium1 | Arsenal | | Stadium2 | Wembley Park || Stadium3 | Wimbledon | | Septimus | Seven Sisters || Holding | Euston | | Home* | ** || | | +---------------+-------------------++---------------+-------------------+ *One per Player **As defined by [Home:] A similar table shall be included in the GSD. Rule 2.x.3 - Closed? No, Moved! In Trumpington's Variation, Rule 1.13.4 is modified: A Move which ends at the (Closed) Goal is valid, if the Turn includes Shunting the Goal Marker to another Station. Similarly, a Move ending at the (Closed or Blocked) Home Station of a non-Actioning Player is valid, if the Turn contains a Shunt of the Home Marker to another Station. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reproposal 971 - ¤*?§||@£$ [Amendment] To Rule 1.11.7 - Sanctuary, add after the last sentence: A Player may perform the neutral Action of "[Defaming ]", where is a Holy Station. This causes to be considered a non-Holy Station until the firstcoming Sunday, at which time the Station again becomes Holy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Phase Rule Dur Cost Gain FR ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Defaming ] Neut 1.11.7 5Bk (S1) Ichabod Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Fri Jan 28 03:41:16 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 11:45:14 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27058 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 11:42:50 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 11:42:50 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.5] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12E9na-0002kj-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:42:46 +0000 Message-ID: <011c01bf6984$60808c20$05847ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:19:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay: > On Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:51 PM, Dunx [SMTP:dunx@d...] wrote: > > Maybe we need a single definition for impediment. > > I think this is the generally preferable solution. We need some method of > saying simply "The station can be a valid destination of a move" and "The > station can be moved through". The latter is probably "Blocked" (as in > "Bulkheaded stations are considered Blocked"); the former could perhaps be > called "Barred" (as in barred shut). > > So a proposal to define Blocked and Barred and then go through the ruleset > defining appropriately ("A Closed Station is considered Barred", etc.). > Sound OK? Yes, except I'd rather keep "Closed" than use "Barred". Ichabod Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Fri Jan 28 03:41:21 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 11:45:19 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27080 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 11:42:52 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 11:42:52 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.5] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12E9nd-0002kj-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:42:49 +0000 Message-ID: <011d01bf6984$6254fe00$05847ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:36:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:25 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > Ole wrote: > > > > > : Proposal 960 - Melmholtz Coils upon your boils [Enactment] > > > : > > > : Action: > > > : [Charge-Swapping with ] > > > > > > Ah... so Charge-Swapping is a Translocation! :-) > > > > Not really the pieces stay where they are. > > Not so. The Charge-swap swaps both Pieces and Charges. It is a > Translocation. I'll put an amendment in if it passes. I don't think you're right here. According to the example after the swap has taken place the two Players are in opposite locations. Since they have swapped pieces the pieces can't have changed position therefore no Translocation has taken place. Ichabod Snow -"[Manchester] a notoriously gay area of England just outside of London" -An American From Fri Jan 28 14:05:23 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 22:09:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7192 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 22:09:22 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 22:09:22 -0000 Received: from opus (p441-034.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.148.162]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA08615 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:09:19 +0100 Message-ID: <040401bf69dc$30a981c0$28802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <011d01bf6984$6254fe00$05847ed4@snow> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:33:22 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow answered Paul: : > Not so. The Charge-swap swaps both Pieces and Charges. It is a : > Translocation. I'll put an amendment in if it passes. : : I don't think you're right here. According to the example after the swap has taken place the two : Players are in opposite locations. Since they have swapped pieces the pieces can't have changed : position therefore no Translocation has taken place. Ah. Do we swap the Pieces or do the Pieces swap positions? I assume the latter is what is meant. Ole From Fri Jan 28 14:05:50 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 28 Jan 2000 22:09:52 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7601 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2000 22:09:32 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 22:09:32 -0000 Received: from opus (p441-034.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.148.162]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA08627 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:09:22 +0100 Message-ID: <040501bf69dc$31bdb0e0$28802fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <011b01bf6984$5bd134e0$05847ed4@snow> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:39:36 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Reprops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Reproposal 969 - Radiology [Amendment] : Reproposal 970 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] : Reproposal 971 - ¤*?§||@£$ [Amendment] I believe 970 is wrongly reproposed. I withdrew 957, so it did not fail Quorum. Besides, 962 is an updated version of this prop. Since I *have* voted, I hereby vote PASS on 969 and 971. Ole From Sat Jan 29 09:21:10 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 29 Jan 2000 17:25:12 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 250 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2000 17:25:04 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2000 17:25:04 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.132] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12EbcG-0003hI-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:24:57 +0000 Message-ID: <017d01bf6a7d$57d81b20$844f08c3@snow> From: "Ichabod Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <011d01bf6984$6254fe00$05847ed4@snow> <040401bf69dc$30a981c0$28802fc3@opus> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:11:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 38 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole: > Snow answered Paul: > : > Not so. The Charge-swap swaps both Pieces and Charges. It is a > : > Translocation. I'll put an amendment in if it passes. > : > : I don't think you're right here. According to the example after the swap > has taken place the two > : Players are in opposite locations. Since they have swapped pieces the > pieces can't have changed > : position therefore no Translocation has taken place. > > Ah. Do we swap the Pieces or do the Pieces swap positions? I assume the > latter is what is meant. It may be what was meant, but I don't think it is what was Proposed. Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Sat Jan 29 09:21:11 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 29 Jan 2000 17:25:13 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 287 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2000 17:25:05 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2000 17:25:05 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.132] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12EbcK-0003hI-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:25:00 +0000 Message-ID: <017e01bf6a7d$5a114240$844f08c3@snow> From: "Ichabod Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <011b01bf6984$5bd134e0$05847ed4@snow> <040501bf69dc$31bdb0e0$28802fc3@opus> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:14:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Reprops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ole: > : Reproposal 969 - Radiology [Amendment] > : Reproposal 970 - Trumpington's Variation [Special Ruleset] > : Reproposal 971 - ¤*?§||@£$ [Amendment] > > I believe 970 is wrongly reproposed. I withdrew 957, so it did not fail > Quorum. > Besides, 962 is an updated version of this prop. Bother. Proposals are renumberd thus: Reproposal 969 - Radiology [Amendment] Reproposal 970 - ¤*?§||@£$ [Amendment] Proposal 971 -----Next Week------ > Since I *have* voted, I hereby vote PASS on 969 and 971. OK. Ichabod -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Tue Feb 1 13:21:22 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 01 Feb 2000 21:25:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3415 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2000 21:24:52 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2000 21:24:52 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.1] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Fkli-000Phk-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:23:26 +0000 Message-ID: <000801bf6cfa$27c35600$014f08c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:28:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Nine ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal - Thingies [Ammendment] 1. In Rule 1.4.18, replace these items: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Hard Hat | 2 Br | Garment | | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Remote Control (Off)| 3 Br | Small, Electric | | Silly Hat | 2 Br | Garment | | Spectacles | 4 Br | Small, Garment | | Vacuum Cleaner | 6 Br | Large, Electrical | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ with these: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Book | 3 Br | Papery | | Hat | 2 Br | Garment | | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's, Dispensable | | Remote Control (Off)| 3 Br | Small, Electrical | | Scarf | 3 Br | Garment, Woolen | | Spectacles | 4 Br | Small, Garment | | Vacuum Cleaner (Off)| 6 Br | Large, Electrical | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ 2. Amend Rule 1.4.33 - Zzzzzzzzzzap! to have this wording: Electrical Possessions are either On or Off, Off being the default. A Player can switch one of eir Electrical Possessions On or Off by using the Neutral Action [ On] or [ Off], respectively. If a Line is in an Electrified State, all Electrical Possessions carried by Players whose Pieces are on the said Line, are Off. 3. In Rule 1.8.7 - Gapminding, change: A Player may perform the Action "[Mind the Gap]" or the Action "[Ignore the Gap]", to put the Game in and out of a "Gapminding" State, respectively. While such a State is in effect, the "[Line Change]" Action may not be performed. to: A Player may perform the Action "[Mind the Gap]" or the Action "[Ignore the Gap]", to put the Game in and out of a "Gapminding" State, respectively. While such a State is in effect, the "[Line Change]" Action may not be performed, unless the Player is carrying a Book. 4. Add to the end of Rule 1.4.35: A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] as a Neutral Action. MN Speaker -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Tue Feb 1 13:41:42 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 01 Feb 2000 21:45:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28110 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2000 21:45:11 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2000 21:45:11 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.1] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Fkln-000Phk-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:23:31 +0000 Message-ID: <000c01bf6cfa$2aabf700$014f08c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:48:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 38 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 38 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 960 Melmholtz Coils upon your boils 1 1 1 3 Fails 961 Parallellity 1 1 1 3 Fails 962 Trumpington's Variation 1 1 1 3 Fails 963 Translocation 3 0 0 3 Passes 964 Your choice - take it or leave it 3 0 0 3 Passes 965 Another choice for you to make 1 0 2 3 Fails 966 The Great Bear 2 1 0 3 Passes 967 A Time for Clamps 2 1 0 3 Passes 968 Slightly Down With Poll Tax 1 1 1 3 Fails 969 Radiology 0 2 1 3 Fails 970 ¤*?§||@£$ 1 2 0 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 960 (Paul) - - - - AGA - FOR - - PAS 961 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - FOR 962 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - FOR 963 (Paul) - - - - FOR - FOR - - FOR 964 (Paul) - - - - FOR - FOR - - FOR 965 (Paul) - - - - AGA - AGA - - FOR 966 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 967 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - FOR 968 (Kevan) - - - - PAS - FOR - - AGA 969 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS - - PAS 970 (Ole) - - - - FOR - PAS - - PAS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - 963 - - - - 963 CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - 967 - - 967 ICMS Clarity - - - - 963 - - - - 966 Mrs Trellis - - - - 970 - 966 - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 8 0 0 5 0 5 11 0 14 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 8 0 0 5 0 5 11 0 14 Halved 4 2 2 5 0 7 FOR votes +0 +5 +3 +8 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 -1 -3 -3 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +2 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +2 +2 +0 +0 +0 Finger/pulse +0 +5 +0 +0 +0 +0 Awards +0 +3 +0 +3 +0 +3 This week +0 +16 +4 +8 +0 +5 Final 11 4 0 0 18 0 6 13 0 12 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - Paul (Translocation) CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - Kevan (A Time for Clamps) ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -"Bring me corpses; and quickly!" From Wed Feb 2 01:13:52 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 02 Feb 2000 09:17:56 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 386 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2000 09:17:33 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2000 09:17:33 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2000 09:17:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:17:24 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <878sn4$2js5@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000801bf6cfa$27c35600$014f08c3@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If a Line is in an Electrified State, all Electrical Possessions > carried by Players whose Pieces are on the said Line, are Off. Do they become switched off, or are "On" Possessions merely treated as being "Off" for as long as the Player keeps his foot on the electrics? > A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] as > a Neutral Action. Fair enough to give Scarves a purpose, I suppose, but, er, what? Is this a clever reference that's sailed over my head, perhaps? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Feb 2 08:18:48 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 02 Feb 2000 16:22:52 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 12179 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2000 16:22:45 -0000 Received: from davisson.uni2.net (129.142.7.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2000 16:22:45 -0000 Received: from opus (p447-5.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.5]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA17207 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:22:44 +0100 Message-ID: <018801bf6d99$97d66fa0$09822fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <878sn4$2js5@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:54:04 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan asked: : > If a Line is in an Electrified State, all Electrical Possessions : > carried by Players whose Pieces are on the said Line, are Off. : : Do they become switched off, or are "On" Possessions merely treated as : being "Off" for as long as the Player keeps his foot on the electrics? : Well, I guess their 'On-ness' is suppressed while the zap is on. : > A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] as : > a Neutral Action. : : Fair enough to give Scarves a purpose, I suppose, but, er, what? Is : this a clever reference that's sailed over my head, perhaps? : Not especially clever. The [Release Rat] Action is, I think, a Post-Move Action without a Scarf. Ole From Wed Feb 2 09:33:37 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 02 Feb 2000 17:37:41 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 29822 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2000 17:37:28 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2000 17:37:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.26] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2000 17:37:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:37:23 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <879q0j$73nh@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <018801bf6d99$97d66fa0$09822fc3@opus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > : Do they become switched off, or are "On" Possessions merely treated as > : being "Off" for as long as the Player keeps his foot on the electrics? > > Well, I guess their 'On-ness' is suppressed while the zap is on. Hmm. I think I would have guessed the other way. Clarity is required. > Not especially clever. The [Release Rat] Action is, I think, a Post-Move > Action without a Scarf. Indeed. Curious. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Feb 2 12:13:30 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 02 Feb 2000 20:17:34 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 1001 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2000 20:14:34 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2000 20:14:34 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.214] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12G6AW-0000xd-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:14:29 +0000 Message-ID: <000601bf6db9$a816b120$d6847ed4@snow> From: "Ichabod Snow" To: References: <878sn4$2js5@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:58:14 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan said: > > A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] as > > a Neutral Action. > > Fair enough to give Scarves a purpose, I suppose, but, er, what? Is > this a clever reference that's sailed over my head, perhaps? > Rupert the Bear had a scarf didn't he? Ichabod Snow -Trying to confuse everyone. From Thu Feb 3 01:02:34 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 03 Feb 2000 09:06:39 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 29293 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2000 09:06:24 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 09:06:24 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.16] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Feb 2000 09:06:24 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 01:06:20 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <87bgec$8p3i@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000601bf6db9$a816b120$d6847ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] as > > > a Neutral Action. > > > > Fair enough to give Scarves a purpose, I suppose, but, er, what? Is > > this a clever reference that's sailed over my head, perhaps? > > Rupert the Bear had a scarf didn't he? I don't remember him releasing rats, though... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Thu Feb 3 02:25:54 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 03 Feb 2000 10:29:59 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 22676 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2000 10:29:54 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 10:29:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 17802 invoked by uid 85); 3 Feb 2000 10:29:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 10:29:49 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com From: Dunx Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 6:29:49 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re-inactivation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <87blb7+8h71@eGroups.com> Friends: I was hoping I hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but I'm afraid I am going to have to go Inactive again until further notice. Work is just too much at the moment, and I'm afraid I haven't the energy to contribute properly to this game. Apologies for disappearing again so soon. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Thu Feb 3 08:25:12 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 03 Feb 2000 16:29:16 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14720 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2000 16:27:32 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 16:27:32 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.37] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12GP6Q-000NHM-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:27:30 +0000 Message-ID: <019f01bf6e63$1f344480$25887ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <87bgec$8p3i@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:33:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevan worte: > > > > A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] > as > > > > a Neutral Action. > > > > > > Fair enough to give Scarves a purpose, I suppose, but, er, what? Is > > > this a clever reference that's sailed over my head, perhaps? > > > > Rupert the Bear had a scarf didn't he? > > I don't remember him releasing rats, though... What about James Herbert? He wrote some books about rats. Ichabod Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Thu Feb 3 08:25:19 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 03 Feb 2000 16:29:23 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 23269 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2000 16:27:36 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 16:27:36 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.37] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12GP6R-000NHM-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:27:31 +0000 Message-ID: <01a001bf6e63$1fece620$25887ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <87blb7+g136@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:29:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Re-inactivation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx: > I was hoping I hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but I'm afraid I am going > to have to go Inactive again until further notice. Work is just too much at > the moment, and I'm afraid I haven't the energy to contribute properly to > this game. OK. Come back soon. Snow -"I've come to collect my hedgehog for the hard of hearing" From Tue Feb 8 11:14:58 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 08 Feb 2000 19:19:05 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 31017 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2000 19:18:33 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2000 19:18:33 -0000 Received: from [212.126.142.217] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12IG9c-000P4J-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:18:29 +0000 Message-ID: <000201bf7268$cc713640$d98e7ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:00:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 40 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Thirty-Forty ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 972 - No Drone Resignations [Ammendment] Change Rule 1.1.10 - Timeout On The Grand Scale from: Any player who does not play a single move in any particular Game for a period of two calendar months should be considered to have Resigned from that Game and deleted from the relevant GSD, along with all eir Tokens and Possessions. to: Any non-Drone Player who does not play a single move in any particular Game for a period of two calendar months should be considered to have Resigned from that Game and deleted from the relevant GSD, along with all eir Tokens and Possessions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -A random mistake. From Tue Feb 8 11:45:48 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 08 Feb 2000 19:49:55 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8246 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2000 19:49:09 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2000 19:49:09 -0000 Received: from [212.126.142.217] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12IG9e-000P4J-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:18:30 +0000 Message-ID: <000301bf7268$cd530ac0$d98e7ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:02:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 39 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 39 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 971 Thingies 1 1 0 3 Quorum ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 971 (Ole) - - - - - - PAS - - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - 971 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 4 0 0 18 0 6 13 0 12 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 4 0 0 18 0 6 13 0 12 Halved 9 3 6 0 6 FOR votes +0 +1 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +0 +2 +0 +0 +2 Decisiveness +0 +0 +0 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +0 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +0 +0 +3 This week +0 +3 +0 +0 +12 Final 11 4 0 0 9 0 6 6 0 18 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -I have a feeling I'm supposed to be doing something, but don't know quite what. From Wed Feb 9 02:36:52 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 09 Feb 2000 10:40:58 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 27553 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 10:40:52 -0000 Received: from b05.egroups.com (10.1.2.184) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 10:40:52 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.129] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2000 10:40:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 02:40:47 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <87rg7f$inmu@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000301bf7268$cd530ac0$d98e7ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 39 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ------------------------------------------------------------ > No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results > ------------------------------------------------------------ > 971 Thingies 1 1 0 3 Quorum > ------------------------------------------------------------ Um. Whoops. I forgot what day it was. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Thu Feb 10 07:47:13 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 10 Feb 2000 15:51:20 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15453 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2000 15:50:39 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2000 15:50:39 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.30] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12IvrV-000OJe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:50:33 +0000 Message-ID: <00ec01bf73de$1292ae80$42857ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:30:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Reproposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following has been reproposed from Week 39: ------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 973 - Thingies [Ammendment] 1. In Rule 1.4.18, replace these items: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Hard Hat | 2 Br | Garment | | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's | | Remote Control (Off)| 3 Br | Small, Electric | | Silly Hat | 2 Br | Garment | | Spectacles | 4 Br | Small, Garment | | Vacuum Cleaner | 6 Br | Large, Electrical | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ with these: +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Possession | Cost | Qualities | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ | Book | 3 Br | Papery | | Hat | 2 Br | Garment | | Newspaper | 1 Br | Papery, Today's, Dispensable | | Remote Control (Off)| 3 Br | Small, Electrical | | Scarf | 3 Br | Garment, Woolen | | Spectacles | 4 Br | Small, Garment | | Vacuum Cleaner (Off)| 6 Br | Large, Electrical | +---------------------+------+---------------------------------+ 2. Amend Rule 1.4.33 - Zzzzzzzzzzap! to have this wording: Electrical Possessions are either On or Off, Off being the default. A Player can switch one of eir Electrical Possessions On or Off by using the Neutral Action [ On] or [ Off], respectively. If a Line is in an Electrified State, all Electrical Possessions carried by Players whose Pieces are on the said Line, are Off. 3. In Rule 1.8.7 - Gapminding, change: A Player may perform the Action "[Mind the Gap]" or the Action "[Ignore the Gap]", to put the Game in and out of a "Gapminding" State, respectively. While such a State is in effect, the "[Line Change]" Action may not be performed. to: A Player may perform the Action "[Mind the Gap]" or the Action "[Ignore the Gap]", to put the Game in and out of a "Gapminding" State, respectively. While such a State is in effect, the "[Line Change]" Action may not be performed, unless the Player is carrying a Book. 4. Add to the end of Rule 1.4.35: A Player wearing a Scarf may perform the Action [Release Rat] as a Neutral Action. MN Speaker -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Tue Feb 15 11:41:52 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 15 Feb 2000 19:46:01 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6745 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2000 19:45:46 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 19:45:46 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.171] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Knui-000Dx1-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:45:37 +0000 Message-ID: <00c101bf77ed$3a4c59e0$ab887ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:57:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-One ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 974 - In My Own Time [Multiple] {This proposal is intended to make all games Free for All. The most interesting stuff is in point 12, where I propose that each player has eir own game time. The rest is more or less just consequences of that.} 1. In Rule 1.1.2 - A New Game change : When a new Game begins, the following initial conditions apply to that Game:- * The Game shall take place in a Lounge of the Speaker's choice. * Game Time is randomly selected by the Speaker. to: When a new Game begins, the following initial conditions apply to that Game:- * The Game shall take place in a Lounge of the Speaker's choice. * Initial Game Time is randomly selected by the Speaker, being the same for all Players. The Initial Game Time shall be evenly divisible by 5 minutes. In Rule 1.1.8 - Joining In change: When a new Player joins a Game already in progress, the Speaker shall determine er position in the Playing Order according to Rule 1.1.12. The Playing Order shall be reflected in the sequence of the Game State Document's Token Table, and may not be amended except by the addition of further new Players and the resignation of old ones. to: When a new Player joins a Game already in progress, the Speaker shall determine eir position in the Playing Order according to Rule 1.1.12, and assign em a Game Time. This Game Time is randomly chosen from the Game Times of the already playing Players of the Game. The Playing Order shall be reflected in the sequence of the Game State Document's Token Table, and may not be amended except by the addition of further new Players and the resignation of old ones. 3. In Rule 1.2.0 - The Game State Document change: The GSD shall also include the following information in an appropriate format: Disruptions; Game Time; Wild Stations; Token Stacks; Courier Pick-up and Destination Stations. to: The GSD shall also include the following information in an appropriate format: Disruptions; Game Times; Wild Stations; Token Stacks; Courier Pick-up and Destination Stations. 4. In Rule 1.3.0 - Turn Summary change: The Game of Mornington Crescent is divided into Turns, each taken by different Player, in sequence. During each Turn, a Player may make a Move, perform Actions and collect Tokens. Moves, Plays, Rounds and Turns shall be defined as follows in combination with those definitions already extant: * A Round is a sequence of Turns in which all Active Players play. An effect which is said to endure for one Round lasts from the point at which the effect begins until the same point in the next Round (Turn Phases to be rounded up). Specifically, if something begins during the Post-Move Phase of a Player's Turn and lasts for one Round, then that something stops at the end of the Post-Move phase in that Player's next Turn or (if that Player Resigns or goes Inactive) the point after which eir Turn would have been. to: The Game of Mornington Crescent is divided into Turns, each taken by a Player. During each Turn, a Player may make a Move, perform Actions and collect Tokens. Moves, Plays, Rounds and Turns shall be defined as follows in combination with those definitions already extant: * A Round is a sequence of as many Turns as there are Active Players in the Game. An effect which is said to endure for one Round lasts from the point at which the effect begins until the same point in the next Round (Turn Phases to be rounded up). 5. In Rule 1.3.1 - Taking a Turn change: * Updating of any aspects of the Game State Document which have been altered (eg. Game Time, Token possession, Knip, etc.) to: * Updating of any aspects of the Game State Document which have been altered (eg. Game Times, Token possession, Knip, etc.) 6. In Rule 1.3.2 - Playing Sequence change: After a Player has taken eir Turn, it becomes the Turn of the next Active Player in the Token Table at the top of the GSD. If there are no further Active Players in the Token Table (or no Turns have yet been played), it becomes the Turn of the first Active Player in the Token Table. to: A Busy Player may not take a Turn. 7. In Rule 1.3.5 - Timing is Everything change: Players have 36 hours to submit eir Turn, starting from the time the previous Turn was submitted. Saturdays and Sundays are ignored for the purposes of this rule, so that if a Player submits a Turn at 10am on Friday, the next Player has until 10pm on Monday to submit eir Turn. A Player may still submit eir Turn at the weekend, in which case the 36 hours start at 0000GMT Monday. If a Player does not submit eir Turn within this time, any Player from that Game may submit a Turn containing the Move of "Timeout" (with no Actions) for that Player, and advance the Game Time by one hour. If the Forcing Player is able to take eir Turn directly after the Forced Player, e may submit eir Turn on the same GSD. to: Players have 36 hours to submit eir Turn, starting from the time the previous Turn was submitted. Saturdays and Sundays are ignored for the purposes of this rule, so that if a Player submits a Turn at 10am on Friday, the next Player has until 10pm on Monday to submit eir Turn. A Player may still submit eir Turn at the weekend, in which case the 36 hours start at 0000GMT Monday. If no Player submits eir Turn within this time, any Player from that Game may submit a Turn on the behalf of the Lagging Player, if the Game has such a Player, containing the Move of "Timeout" (with no Actions), and advance the Game Time of the thusly Forced Player by one hour. If the Forcing Player is able to take eir Turn directly after the Forced Player, e may submit eir Turn on the same GSD. 8. In Rule 1.4.24 - The Podume of Infinite Darkness change: If there is no PoID in play, any Player may perform the Action of "[Forging PoID]" to bring the PoID into play, in eir Possession, provided that e is not located at a Holy Station, and that Game Time is outside of Peak Hours. If performed at midnight, this Action's cost is halved. to: If there is no PoID in play, any Player may perform the Action of "[Forging PoID]" to bring the PoID into play, in eir Possession, provided that e is not located at a Holy Station, and that eir Game Time is outside of Peak Hours. If performed at midnight, this Action's cost is halved. 9. In Rule 1.5.12 - Farkling change: A Player may play a Move of "Farkle", provided that e performs no Actions during that Turn. Such a Play is identical in every respect to a Move of "Pass", except that, upon making it, the Player who makes it may adjust Game Time to any day and time. to: A Player may play a Move of "Farkle", provided that e performs no Actions during that Turn. Such a Play is identical in every respect to a Move of "Pass", except that, upon making it, the Player who makes it may adjust eir Game Time to any day and time. 10. In Rule 1.7.20 - Busking change: A Player may perform the action 'Busking' provided that Game Time is currently during Peak Hours and to: A Player may perform the action 'Busking' provided that eir Game Time is currently during Peak Hours and 11. In Rule 1.11.3 - Station Damage change: Whenever Game Time moves into a new day, the first Damaged Station listed in Disruptions shall be removed: to: Whenever the Game Time of the Lagging Player (or the Co-Lagging Players) move(s) into a new day, the first Damaged Station listed in Disruptions shall be removed: 12. In Rule 1.13.1 - The Richard Whiteley Experience change: Each Game currently in progress shall have a unique Game Time, which shall be recorded on the Game State Document for that Game. Game Time shall consist of the same units of measurement as real time (but shall bear no other relation to real time) and shall be expressed as the day followed by the time in the 24-hour clock format. Each Player's Turn has a default maximum duration of one hour. Whenever a Player performs an Action or makes a Move, Game Time is advanced by the duration of that Action or Move. If this should take the duration of eir Turn so far beyond its maximum duration, the Turn becomes Illegal. Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of the game time by one day. Thus, if Rushton's Turn finished at Wednesday 2340 and Garden's Turn takes 40 minutes, then Garden's Turn ends at Thursday 0520. If the Action [Night Train] is performed, the firstcoming 'skip' is ignored, but the day of the game time is still advanced at 0000. To signify this anomaly, an asterisk is inserted in the Game Time in the Game State Document. Actions that target other Players cannot be played between 0000 and 0500. to: Each Game currently in progress shall have a number of Game Times, one for each Player, which shall be recorded on the Game State Document for that Game. Game Time shall consist of the same units of measurement as real time (but shall bear no other relation to real time) and shall be expressed as the day followed by the time in the 24-hour clock format. Each Player's Turn has a default maximum duration of one hour. Whenever a Player performs an Action or makes a Move, eir Game Time is advanced by the duration of that Action or Move. If this should take the duration of eir Turn so far beyond its maximum duration, the Turn becomes Illegal. Each Player's Game Time 'skips' the time between 0000 and 0500, and this 'skip' advances the day of eir Game Time by one day. When a Player advances eir Game Time beyond midnight between Sunday and Monday, e must signify this by prefixing eir Game Time with a plus (+), unless e is Lagging, in which case e shall delete a plus from all Game Times. If the Action [Night Train] is performed, the firstcoming 'skip' is ignored, but the day of the Player's Game Time is still advanced at 0000. To signify this anomaly, an asterisk is inserted in the appropriate Game Time in the Game State Document. Actions that target other Players cannot be played between 0000 and 0500. 13. In Rule 1.13.4 - Station Opening change: Each Station may be either Open or Closed, dependent on a number of factors. Certain Stations and Lines are described as having Restricted Opening, the Open/Closed state of these depending on the current Game Time, and being given in Rules 1.13.5 and 1.13.6. to: Each Station may be either Open or Closed, dependent on a number of factors. Certain Stations and Lines are described as having Restricted Opening, the Open/Closed state of these depending on the current Game Time of the Actioning Player, and being given in Rules 1.13.5 and 1.13.6. 14. Create a new Rule 1.13.x - Business and Lag A Player, whose Game Time is more advanced than all other Players', is said to be Busy. A Player, whose Game Time is less advanced than all other Players', is said to be Lagging. If several Players all have identical Game Times, which are less advanced than all other Players', they are said be Co-Lagging. 15. Delete Section 2.12 16. Create a new Rule in the Vanilla Ruleset: If a common Game Time is defined in a Game, all Players of that Game are given this Game Time as their individual Game Times. 17. Delete the just-created Rule. MN Speaker -"The moose took it." From Tue Feb 15 11:41:53 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 15 Feb 2000 19:46:03 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 6785 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2000 19:45:48 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 19:45:48 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.171] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Knum-000Dx1-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:45:41 +0000 Message-ID: <00c301bf77ed$3cb7dba0$ab887ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:30:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 40 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 40 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 972 No Drone Resignations 3 1 0 3 Passes 973 Thingies 2 1 1 3 Passes ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 972 (Ole) - - - - FOR - PAS FOR - FOR 973 (Ole) - - - - AGA - PAS FOR - FOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - 972 - - - - 972 ICMS Clarity - - - - 972 - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - 973 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 4 0 0 9 0 6 6 0 18 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 4 0 0 9 0 6 6 0 18 Halved 4 3 3 0 9 FOR votes +0 +5 +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 -1 +0 +0 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +2 +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +0 +2 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +0 +0 +5 +0 +5 Awards +0 +3 +0 +0 +3 This week +4 +9 +9 +0 +12 Final 11 4 0 0 8 0 12 12 0 21 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - Ole (No Drone Resignations) ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none [*] For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) *- PaulWay's bow in the Lyttleton Lounge hasn't been considered this Week since the Turn is being Slightly Buzzed. I will consider it next week depending on the outcome of the Slight Buzz. MN Speaker -Snake Charming From Sun Feb 20 04:58:22 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 20 Feb 2000 12:58:24 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26943 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2000 12:58:20 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2000 12:58:20 -0000 Received: from [212.126.137.184] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12MVwJ-000IPe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:58:19 +0000 Message-ID: <002201bf7ba2$1cf37960$b8897ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <00c101bf77ed$3a4c59e0$ab887ed4@snow> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:55:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Proposal 974 - In My Own Time [Multiple] > > {This proposal is intended to make all games Free for All. > The most interesting stuff is in point 12, where I propose that each player > has eir own game time. The rest is more or less just consequences of that.} Arrrrrrrrrrrgh! Run for your lives :-) I see there is nothing to prevent a Player making x successive Turns within minutes of each other unless zie becomes the Busy Player. Why then restrict each Turn to 60mins? This would add a new level of stratergy to the game, since allowing ones own time to get too far ahead would mean the lagging player can play a devistating series of Turns with noone in between to stop zir. This would also do away with Pre and Post Actions since one can just play a null Move to get the Action done. Too fiddly for Vanilla games though. And I've not been too impressed with Free-for-All Solipsium either. > * A Round is a sequence of as many Turns as there are Active Players > in the Game. An effect which is said to endure for one Round lasts > from the point at which the effect begins until the same point in > the next Round (Turn Phases to be rounded up). > Nice definition of a Round. > 6. In > Rule 1.3.2 - Playing Sequence > change: > After a Player has taken eir Turn, it becomes the Turn of the next > Active Player in the Token Table at the top of the GSD. If there are > no further Active Players in the Token Table (or no Turns have yet > been played), it becomes the Turn of the first Active Player in the > Token Table. > to: > A Busy Player may not take a Turn. OK Snow -Double sided sticky tape takes over world. From Sun Feb 20 15:21:28 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 20 Feb 2000 23:21:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 2036 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2000 23:21:14 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2000 23:21:14 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA15691; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:21:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015571; Mon, 21 Feb 00 09:21:00 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1704MQ7Q>; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:21:00 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:20:58 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals - Using Rule 0.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday, February 20, 2000 10:55 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > Arrrrrrrrrrrgh! Run for your lives :-) I have to agree with this comment on the proposal, but this message is not about that: [snip] > unless zie becomes the Busy Player. Why then restrict each Turn to 60mins? ^^^ I know this doesn't really matter, but have you considered using Spivak pronouns? Not only are they authorised by Rule 0.1.2, but most of the players here are more familiar with them (from experience). Plural Singular ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ they e them em their eir theirs eirs Etc. Not that this is vitally important, but thought you might be interested. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Mon Feb 21 03:11:47 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Feb 2000 11:11:49 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 22414 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2000 11:11:22 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.com (10.1.2.81) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2000 11:11:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.123] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Feb 2000 11:11:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:11:21 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <88r6gp$95h4@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <002201bf7ba2$1cf37960$b8897ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Arrrrrrrrrrrgh! Run for your lives :-) Indeed. This was also my initial reaction. > Too fiddly for Vanilla games though. And I've not been too impressed with Free-for-All Solipsium > either. And this was my conclusion; from the Solipsism game, I think it's shown that such an approach just polarises the apathetic and busy from the enthusiastic and frequently-online - it lessens the sense of urgency for the former, if they never actually have to bother submitting a Turn, and gives the edge to the latter, who don't have to wait for other Players to catch up. Not a good thing, if you ask me. > > * A Round is a sequence of as many Turns as there are Active Players > > in the Game. An effect which is said to endure for one Round lasts > > from the point at which the effect begins until the same point in > > the next Round (Turn Phases to be rounded up). > > > > Nice definition of a Round. I don't know, it's a bit precarious, isn't it? If I Block a Station for a Round (say six Turns), and suddenly three people go Inactive, does that mean that the Block still lasts for six Turns, or adjusts itself to last only three? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Feb 21 12:22:02 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Feb 2000 20:22:03 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 32021 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2000 20:21:41 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2000 20:21:40 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.200] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12MzKr-0009VK-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:21:37 +0000 Message-ID: <015801bf7ca9$33351fa0$c88f7ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:17:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals - Using Rule 0.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay said: > On Sunday, February 20, 2000 10:55 PM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > [snip] > > unless zie becomes the Busy Player. Why then restrict each Turn to 60mins? > ^^^ > > I know this doesn't really matter, but have you considered using Spivak > pronouns? Not only are they authorised by Rule 0.1.2, but most of the > players here are more familiar with them (from experience). Oh, sorry; got a bit mixed up. Zie, zir... are more common elsewhere. There seem to be at least 4 different sets of gender-neutral terms. Somebody should complain to the OED. Ichabod Snow -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Mon Feb 21 12:38:47 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Feb 2000 20:38:48 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 9846 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2000 20:35:19 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2000 20:35:19 -0000 Received: from opus (p445-76.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.129.76]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA26833 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:35:16 +0100 Message-ID: <02b501bf7cab$0320db40$6dd752c3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <88r6gp$95h4@eGroups.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:21:21 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow, Paul and Kevan wrote: : > Arrrrrrrrrrrgh! Run for your lives :-) : Well, I assume this means that you aren't going to vote for it, so I'd better withdraw the prop. Consider it withdrawn. Ole From Mon Feb 21 15:29:59 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 21 Feb 2000 23:30:01 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 25239 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2000 23:29:32 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2000 23:29:32 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA29853; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:29:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029737; Tue, 22 Feb 00 09:29:17 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1704M9SW>; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:29:17 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:29:12 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals - Using Rule 0.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, February 22, 2000 6:17 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > Oh, sorry; got a bit mixed up. Zie, zir... are more common elsewhere. > There seem to be at least 4 > different sets of gender-neutral terms. Somebody should complain to the > OED. I've heard reports of up to sixteen (!), including such curiosities as heshe/hishers, sh-he/sh-him and thim/thirs. The reasons I like Spivak are that it's easy to read, it's short to type, and when you miss out a consonant it's not as noticeable in speech as inserting a different vowel. Babula, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Dunx Tue Feb 22 03:21:26 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 11:21:29 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 7649 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 11:20:53 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 11:20:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 9474 invoked by uid 85); 22 Feb 2000 11:20:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 11:20:49 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 7:20:49 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <88trfp+hsss@eGroups.com> Juat a quick comment from an Inactive Player who happens to be passing by... On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:21:21 +0100 "Ole Andersen" wrote: > Well, I assume this means that you aren't going to vote for it, so I'd > better withdraw the prop. Is it just me, or does this practice of withdrawing Proposals which have attracted negative public comment undermine the Kudos system? If unpopular Proposals never make it to the Vote, then their Proposers are never going to attract the negative Kudos reward for Votes against. Should there be a penalty for withdrawal? (I shan't revive the debate about Kudos itself, although long-time observers will know I don't like it) -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Tue Feb 22 13:13:06 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 21:13:08 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 9173 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 21:13:07 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 21:13:07 -0000 Received: from opus (p461-108.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.137.108]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA23233 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:13:05 +0100 Message-ID: <015201bf7d79$75a00780$ca812fc3@opus> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <88trfp+1uje@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:04:49 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunx wrote: ... : Is it just me, or does this practice of withdrawing Proposals which have : attracted negative public comment undermine the Kudos system? If unpopular : Proposals never make it to the Vote, then their Proposers are never going : to attract the negative Kudos reward for Votes against. In a sense it *does* undermine the Kudos system, but with everybody getting their Kudos halved every week, and not much proposing happening, Kudos aren't much of an indicator (except of activity level). : : Should there be a penalty for withdrawal? Could be, but again... weekly halving is still a very effective equalizer. Ole From Tue Feb 22 13:21:39 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:41 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22005 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 21:21:27 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:27 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.13] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12NMkF-000HPa-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:21:25 +0000 Message-ID: <007901bf7d7a$bb47f300$0d8f7ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:18:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 41 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 41 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 974 In My Own Time -- Withdrawn -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 974 (Ole) -- Withdrawn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial 11 4 0 0 8 0 12 12 0 21 Halved 4 6 6 0 10 Final 11 4 0 0 4 0 6 6 0 10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -"No engineer looks at a television remote control without wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun." -Scott Adams (Dilbert) From Tue Feb 22 13:21:39 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:42 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14154 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 21:21:28 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:28 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.13] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12NMkI-000HPa-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:21:27 +0000 Message-ID: <007a01bf7d7a$bd71d7e0$0d8f7ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:21:43 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 42 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Two ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- No Proposals this week. MN Speaker -I think I forgot to eat anything for 24hours. From Tue Feb 22 13:21:43 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14437 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 21:21:40 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:40 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.13] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12NMkU-000HQ4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:21:38 +0000 Message-ID: <007b01bf7d7a$c42f9cc0$0d8f7ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: <88r6gp$95h4@eGroups.com> <02b501bf7cab$0320db40$6dd752c3@opus> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:22:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Snow, Paul and Kevan wrote: > > : > Arrrrrrrrrrrgh! Run for your lives :-) > : > > Well, I assume this means that you aren't going to vote for it, so I'd > better withdraw the prop. > > Consider it withdrawn. OK. MN Speaker -Do not read this. From Tue Feb 22 13:21:44 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 22125 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 21:21:41 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 21:21:41 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.13] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12NMkV-000HQ4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:21:39 +0000 Message-ID: <007c01bf7d7a$c4e83e60$0d8f7ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:29:28 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals - Using Rule 0.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay said: > On Tuesday, February 22, 2000 6:17 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > Oh, sorry; got a bit mixed up. Zie, zir... are more common elsewhere. > > There seem to be at least 4 > > different sets of gender-neutral terms. Somebody should complain to the > > OED. > > I've heard reports of up to sixteen (!) Wow. > , including such curiosities as > heshe/hishers, I would have thought "he/she", "his/her" was one of the more common ones, especialy in written English. Snow -Not runnning and not hiding. Boring. From Tue Feb 22 15:07:49 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 22 Feb 2000 23:07:51 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 5460 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2000 23:07:21 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2000 23:07:21 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA19216; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:07:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019098; Wed, 23 Feb 00 09:06:50 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:06:49 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:06:49 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals - Using Rule 0.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, February 23, 2000 6:29 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > , including such curiosities as > > heshe/hishers, > > I would have thought "he/she", "his/her" was one of the more common ones, > especialy in written English. Not as one word, and not as a formal construction. Ick. BTW, if you read to the end of this sentence, your nose will drop off. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Tue Feb 22 18:46:03 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv $); by f7; 23 Feb 2000 02:46:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 3199 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2000 02:45:40 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2000 02:45:40 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA04070; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:45:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma004021; Wed, 23 Feb 00 12:45:32 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:45:32 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:45:28 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 41 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:05 AM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Dunx wrote: > ... > : Is it just me, or does this practice of withdrawing Proposals which > : have > : attracted negative public comment undermine the Kudos system? If > unpopular > : Proposals never make it to the Vote, then their Proposers are never > : going > : to attract the negative Kudos reward for Votes against. > > In a sense it *does* undermine the Kudos system, but with everybody > getting > their Kudos halved every week, and not much proposing happening, Kudos > aren't much of an indicator (except of activity level). I'll agree that perhaps one should lose Kudos when withdrawing a Proposal - but not as much as the penalty for having everyone vote Against your Proposal. One or two points at the most. Besides, the Kudos scores are trivia, really; I ceased worrying about them ages ago. Losing no Kudos as a result of withdrawing an unpopular Proposal is hardly a worry to my mind. And I speak as, if I recall correctly, the proposer of the withdrawal rules. You may laugh at my uncertainty, but with the constant changes to rules it's hard to be sure of what's yours and what's just a good idea of someone else's. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Tue Feb 29 12:54:14 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 29 Feb 2000 20:54:20 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 10343 invoked from network); 29 Feb 2000 20:54:03 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Feb 2000 20:54:03 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.77] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12PteP-000H7W-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:53:54 +0000 Message-ID: <004b01bf82f6$fecee1c0$4d8f7ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:47:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 42 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 42 Year 3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial 11 4 0 0 4 0 6 6 0 10 Halved 2 3 3 0 5 Final 11 4 0 0 2 3 3 5 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -Does anyone know my PIN? I don't. From Tue Feb 29 12:54:40 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 29 Feb 2000 20:54:46 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8606 invoked from network); 29 Feb 2000 20:54:37 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 29 Feb 2000 20:54:37 -0000 Received: from [212.126.143.77] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Ptey-000H7W-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:54:29 +0000 Message-ID: <004c01bf82f7$13f4b340$4d8f7ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:09:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 43 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Three ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- No Proposals this week. MN Speaker -Who managed to fit 12 episodes of ISIHAC on one CD and still have room for a video of naked people doing the kind of thing naked people do in videos found on the internet (morris dancing). From Tue Feb 29 17:16:06 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 01 Mar 2000 01:16:12 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 19288 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2000 01:15:49 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2000 01:15:49 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA06946; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:15:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma006842; Wed, 1 Mar 00 11:15:33 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:15:33 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:15:30 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 43 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:09 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] wrote: > MN Speaker > -Who managed to fit 12 episodes of ISIHAC on one CD and still have room... Are you serious, and can I either get a copy or can you mail me the files (not on this address, on paulway@e...). Quivering in anticipation, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Wed Mar 1 03:44:30 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 01 Mar 2000 11:44:37 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 16409 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2000 11:44:28 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2000 11:44:28 -0000 Received: from [212.126.133.126] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12Q7Y5-000HyX-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:44:13 +0000 Message-ID: <005601bf8373$5cc8bb80$7e857ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: "Mornomic" References: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:33:33 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Year 3 Week 43 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay wrote: > On Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:09 AM, MN Speaker [SMTP:speaker@d...] > wrote: > > MN Speaker > > -Who managed to fit 12 episodes of ISIHAC on one CD and still have room... > > Are you serious, and can I either get a copy or can you mail me the files > (not on this address, on paulway@e...). > > Quivering in anticipation, Distribution of copyrighted material is immoral and illegal. But just for you I'll drop my morals and enter the criminal underworld. Continued in private... Snow -Wearing a stocking over his head and buying a ticket to South America. From Tue Mar 7 14:13:32 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 07 Mar 2000 22:13:42 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 24093 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2000 22:13:29 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 7 Mar 2000 22:13:29 -0000 Received: from [212.126.137.226] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12SSEJ-000DER-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:13:28 +0000 Message-ID: <006101bf8882$387ff860$e2897ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:38:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Week Extension. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the lack of Proposals over the past few weeks I have decided to extend Week 43 until a Proposal is made or some other reason to require a Week end. MN Speaker -Travis: "Why does it always rain on me?" Answer: It's God's way of telling you you're crap. From Wed Mar 8 01:32:26 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 08 Mar 2000 09:32:35 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 12491 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2000 09:32:30 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.com (10.1.2.81) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 8 Mar 2000 09:32:30 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.128] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Mar 2000 09:32:29 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 01:32:22 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8a56n6$8qj3@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <006101bf8882$387ff860$e2897ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Week Extension. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With the lack of Proposals over the past few weeks I have decided to extend Week 43 until a Proposal > is made or some other reason to require a Week end. That's fair enough. Personally I'm a bit too busy with other things to give too much time to dear old Mornomic, these days, but I do wonder if it's maybe time to detach the Nomic side of it and just develop a "proper" ruleset through vague discussion (I suspect it's mainly just a one-man job, once we agree on what work needs to be done). As commented before, it'd be nice if we could get the whole thing down to a readable little "leaflet"... Hmm. > -Travis: "Why does it always rain on me?" > Answer: It's God's way of telling you you're crap. I rather liked their new album, actually. I thought "And what's a Wonderwall, anyway?" was a particularly fine lyric. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Fri Mar 10 08:41:05 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 10 Mar 2000 16:41:13 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 15321 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2000 16:37:38 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2000 16:37:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.124] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2000 16:37:35 -0000 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:37:34 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8ab8ce$ihrt@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: New Nomic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a shameless plug for Genomic, a new Nomic of mine that's about to begin. As much as I love dear old Mornomic, I rather miss the cut and thrust of *proper* Nomic, where players can cheerfully abuse rules and be at each other's throats, rather than patiently struggling to produce a balanced and interesting set of game rules... http://www.crosswinds.net/~genomic/ Be nice to see you all there, anyway, if you've got the time for it. Cheers, Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Fri Mar 10 11:18:36 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 10 Mar 2000 19:18:47 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 16009 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2000 19:18:39 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2000 19:18:39 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p444-31.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.128.159]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA11204 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:18:37 +0100 Message-ID: <030701bf8ac5$18d89220$548a2fc3@richardmayhew> From: "Ole Andersen" To: References: <8ab8ce$ihrt@eGroups.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:46:13 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: New Nomic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevan wrote: : Just a shameless plug for Genomic, a new Nomic of mine that's about to : begin.=20 Thanks. Did you put up the rules, too, or did you do the plug first? I found no rules when I looked. Ole From Sat Mar 11 03:52:55 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 11 Mar 2000 11:53:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 1712 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2000 11:51:44 -0000 Received: from mq.egroups.com (10.1.1.36) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 2000 11:51:44 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: zanangel@i... Received: from [10.1.2.131] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Mar 2000 11:51:44 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:51:36 -0800 From: "Chrissy" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8adc08$44ib@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <030701bf8ac5$18d89220$548a2fc3@richardmayhew> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: New Nomic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Did you put up the rules, too, or did you do the plug first? > > I found no rules when I looked. Odd. They've been up at http://www.crosswinds.net/~genomic/ruleset.html for a day or two, are linked from the main index page, and still seem to be there. Is Crosswinds maybe a bit erratic in making its files available, as well as being rather slow? Oh dear. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Mar 13 05:17:29 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 13 Mar 2000 13:17:39 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 12301 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2000 13:17:28 -0000 Received: from thomson.uni2.net (195.82.195.104) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2000 13:17:28 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p448-81.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.209]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA03658 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:17:27 +0100 Message-ID: <016f01bf8cee$3353d3a0$43882fc3@richardmayhew> From: "Ole Andersen" To: "Mornington" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:41:51 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Inactive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry guys, Real Life just came by. E said that I should spend more time on earning = money and learning stuff and less time on playing games. I hereby go Inactive. Ole From Tue Mar 14 10:46:31 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by q6; 14 Mar 2000 18:46:42 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29072 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2000 18:46:07 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Mar 2000 18:46:07 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.218] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12UwKN-000K0b-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:46:00 +0000 Message-ID: <004401bf8de5$58e9ae80$da4c08c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:11:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 43 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 43 Year 3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Initial 11 4 0 0 2 0 3 3 0 5 Halved 1 1 2 Final 11 4 0 0 1 0 3 1 0 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MN Speaker -I removed my left arm and replaced it with Ian Paisley. From Tue Mar 14 10:48:52 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 14 Mar 2000 18:49:05 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8980 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2000 18:46:12 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 Mar 2000 18:46:12 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.218] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12UwKP-000K0b-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:46:01 +0000 Message-ID: <004501bf8de5$599aaf00$da4c08c3@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:23:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 44 Proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORNINGTON NOMIC Proposals for Voting on in Week Forty-Four ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal 975 - Worthy investment [Enactment] A Proposal may be marked "Joker" by its Proposer to make that Proposal a Joker Proposal. Joker Proposals cannot be Withdrawn, and cause the Proposer to gain or lose twice the number of Kudos for that Proposal that e would have gained or lost with a non-Joker Proposal. A Joker Proposal is marked with the word "Joker" in brackets after the Proposal Title. A Proposal may only be marked as a Joker when it is initially Proposed - a Joker Proposal cannot be changed to a non-Joker Proposal after it is submitted, or vice versa. {This may address some of the Withdrawing Proposal concerns that peopel have, in an innovative way.} MN Speaker -I hate children. From Wed Mar 15 03:58:02 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 15 Mar 2000 11:58:15 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 10754 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2000 11:57:58 -0000 Received: from cj.egroups.com (10.1.2.82) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2000 11:57:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.119] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Mar 2000 11:57:58 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 03:57:53 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8ants0$kdp7@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <016f01bf8cee$3353d3a0$43882fc3@richardmayhew> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole said:- > Real Life just came by. E said that I should spend more time on > earning money and learning stuff and less time on playing games. Sorry to see you go, then. Hope you manage to find sufficient time for amusement, in between earning and learning. Out of interest, who here is still active? I've rather lost track... Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Wed Mar 15 13:15:24 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 15 Mar 2000 21:15:37 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 14766 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2000 21:15:09 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2000 21:15:09 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.191] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12VL8F-000E0n-00 for l-nomic-d@eGroups.com; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:15:07 +0000 Message-ID: <004b01bf8ec3$54bcf5e0$214c08c3@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: <8ants0$kdp7@eGroups.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:53:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Out of interest, who here is still active? I've rather lost track... You, me and PaulWay. Snow -I removed my left arm and replaced it with a radish. From Sun Mar 19 17:47:10 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 20 Mar 2000 01:47:26 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 21642 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2000 01:47:15 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 2000 01:47:15 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA29351; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:47:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029259; Mon, 20 Mar 00 11:46:58 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:46:58 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:46:48 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, March 16, 2000 6:53 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > > Out of interest, who here is still active? I've rather lost track... > > You, me and PaulWay. Yes; I can do a good impression of being active if asked. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Mon Mar 20 02:40:51 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 20 Mar 2000 10:41:06 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 22822 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2000 10:40:47 -0000 Received: from imv.egroups.com (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 2000 10:40:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.15] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Mar 2000 10:40:47 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 02:40:41 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8b4v77$76n4@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Out of interest, who here is still active? I've rather lost track... > > > > You, me and PaulWay. > > Yes; I can do a good impression of being active if asked. Hmm. Ultimately, a three-player Nomic seems a little feeble; all the more so for this particular one, when I know I'd rather have some of the old regulars around to give their thoughts and input on major proposal issues. Is it maybe to to put Mornomic into cold storage? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Mon Mar 20 16:21:25 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 21 Mar 2000 00:21:40 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 18571 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2000 00:21:34 -0000 Received: from dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au (203.25.1.208) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 00:21:34 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA16128; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:21:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa16072; Tue, 21 Mar 00 10:21:18 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:21:18 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Wayper, Paul" To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:21:16 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, March 20, 2000 8:41 PM, Kevan Davis [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > Hmm. Ultimately, a three-player Nomic seems a little feeble; all the > more so for this particular one, when I know I'd rather have some of > the old regulars around to give their thoughts and input on major > proposal issues. I tend to agree; but then a three player game of MC is still quite possible. > Is it maybe to to put Mornomic into cold storage? I'd say hibernation; not necessarily frozen, just very slow. As things stand, is there any reason why we can't just let the games, etc, sit as they are and wait for spring? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From Tue Mar 21 03:42:05 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 21 Mar 2000 11:42:21 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (qmail 18381 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2000 11:42:03 -0000 Received: from ci.egroups.com (10.1.2.81) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 11:42:03 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.26] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2000 11:42:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 03:42:02 -0800 From: "Kevan Davis" To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Message-ID: <8b7n6a$24ou@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I tend to agree; but then a three player game of MC is still quite possible. Oh, indeed, no problem playing MC, just MN. Even two-player MC has been shown to work quite well, after all. > > Is it maybe to to put Mornomic into cold storage? > > I'd say hibernation; not necessarily frozen, just very slow. As things > stand, is there any reason why we can't just let the games, etc, sit as they > are and wait for spring? Such was the approach I imagined, really; announcing (as Snow did last week) an indefinitely prolonged Week, until things started happening again, with the MC games continuing as they are. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan From Dunx Tue Mar 21 05:26:42 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 21 Mar 2000 13:26:58 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 17485 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2000 13:26:37 -0000 Received: from nine.futurequest.net (208.243.19.102) by qg.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 13:26:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 27298 invoked by uid 85); 21 Mar 2000 13:26:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nine.futurequest.net) (127.11.17.6) by 127.11.17.6 with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 13:26:32 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.117) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com From: Dunx Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 9:26:31 AST Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <8b7tb2+f0ge@eGroups.com> On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 03:42:02 -0800 "Kevan Davis" wrote: > > I'd say hibernation; not necessarily frozen, just very slow. As > things > > stand, is there any reason why we can't just let the games, etc, sit > as they > > are and wait for spring? > > Such was the approach I imagined, really; announcing (as Snow did last > week) an indefinitely prolonged Week, until things started happening > again, with the MC games continuing as they are. I must say that this idea of an indefinitely long week is much simpler, easier, and more flexible than that ridiculous Fluid/Frozen thing I came up with last year. Kudos to Snow on that one, I think. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto a hamburger." Ted Nelson From Tue Mar 21 14:55:08 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 21 Mar 2000 22:55:24 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29251 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2000 22:54:58 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 22:54:58 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.165] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12XXY7-000AE3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:54:56 +0000 Message-ID: <007401bf9388$3bb7cd80$a5837ed4@snow> From: "Snow" To: References: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:34:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: Hands up who's active MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PaulWay: > I'd say hibernation; not necessarily frozen, just very slow. As things > stand, is there any reason why we can't just let the games, etc, sit as they > are and wait for spring? Isn't that tomorrow? Snow -Children should be seen and destroyed. From Tue Mar 21 14:55:08 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 21 Mar 2000 22:55:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15790 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2000 22:55:03 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by qh.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 22:55:03 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.165] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12XXYD-000AEb-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:55:02 +0000 Message-ID: <007601bf9388$3efd82a0$a5837ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:23:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 44 Voting Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mornington Nomic Voting results for Week 44 Year 3 ------------------------------------------------------------ No. Proposal Name F P A Q Results ------------------------------------------------------------ 975 Worthy investment 0 0 2 2 Fails ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 975 (Paul) - - - - AGA - - - - AGA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough - - - - - - - - - - CAMREC Cleanup - - - - - - - - - - ICMS Clarity - - - - - - - - - - Mrs Trellis - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last Week 11 4 0 0 1 0 3 1 0 2 Gifts +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 +0 Initial 11 4 0 0 1 0 3 1 0 2 Halved 0 0 1 FOR votes +0 +0 +0 AGAINST votes +0 -2 +0 Voting/own +0 +0 +0 EP FOR +0 +0 +0 EP AGAINST +0 +0 +0 Making/effort +2 +0 +2 Decisiveness +2 +0 +2 Finger/pulse +5 +0 +5 Awards +0 +0 +3 This week +9 -2 +12 Final 11 4 0 0 9 0 3 -2 0 13 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dave Dunx Grimac Jon Kevan miKi Ole Paul Riff Snow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruttsborough (+1) - none CAMREC Cleanup (+3) - none ICMS Clarity (+3) - none Mrs Trellis (+4) - none Clever Bear? (+3) - none For E's A Jolly Good Fellow (+3) - Snow (automatic) MN Speaker -"I think I'm playing that at the wrong speed." From Tue Mar 21 14:55:09 2000 Delivered-To: listsaver-of-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (listserv 315); by f7; 21 Mar 2000 22:55:25 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 29352 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2000 22:55:04 -0000 Received: from oracle.clara.net (195.8.69.94) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 22:55:04 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.165] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12XXYE-000AEb-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:55:03 +0000 Message-ID: <007701bf9388$3fd014e0$a5837ed4@snow> From: "MN Speaker" To: "Mornomic" Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:30:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Mailing-List: contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Year 3 Week 45 Proposals/Week Extension MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There were no proposals this Week. Week 45 will be extended indefinitly. Proposals will be stock piled until there are enough to warrant the effort of a Week End. If something needs doing use an EP. MN Speaker -I removed my left arm and replaced it with Tesco's. From l-nomic-d@egroups.com Sun Apr 16 21:47:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21887 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2000 04:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Apr 2000 04:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Apr 2000 04:47:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 18675 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2000 04:47:02 -0000 Received: from n7.onelist.org (HELO fj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.46) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2000 04:47:02 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@egroups.com Received: from [10.1.10.72] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 2000 04:47:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 2752 invoked by uid 0); 17 Apr 2000 04:47:01 -0000 Date: 17 Apr 2000 04:47:01 -0000 Message-ID: <955946821.2751@egroups.com> To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Reminder - Get Your Votes Ready MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: l-nomic-d@egroups.com We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Get Your Votes Ready Date: Monday, April 17, 2000 Time: All Day 36 hours to go! From snowl@s... Thu May 04 03:59:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6007 invoked from network); 4 May 2000 10:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 May 2000 10:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 May 2000 10:59:43 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.145] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12nJLw-000FA2-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 4 May 2000 11:59:37 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01bfb5b7$559c1c00$918d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: McMapper v0.2 Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:54:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I've replaced the old semi-working MCMapper v0.1.1 with new semi-working MCEditor and MCViewer. MCEditor is more or less the same as MCMapper v0.1 with minor interface changes and a new file format that stores the image and XML in one file. MCViewer doesn't do much at the moment. If you hover you're mouse over a station you can read its current and if you click a station name on the list it will be highlighted. Unfortunately both are very slow. Source code is also included. Snow -Worshipping false gods. From kevan@s... Wed May 10 04:25:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3027 invoked from network); 10 May 2000 11:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 May 2000 11:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 May 2000 11:25:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 22059 invoked from network); 10 May 2000 11:25:22 -0000 Received: from fi.egroups.com (10.1.2.136) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 10 May 2000 11:25:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.33] by fi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 May 2000 11:25:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:25:14 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: McMapper v0.2 Message-ID: <8fbguq+ct1m@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <002d01bfb5b7$559c1c00$918d7ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 299 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > I've replaced the old semi-working MCMapper v0.1.1 with new semi- working MCEditor and MCViewer. I didn't even know there was an old semi-working one. Where can we find these treasures? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Meet me on the corner of your life." From palnatoke@g... Wed May 10 22:35:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28082 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 05:35:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 May 2000 05:35:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 May 2000 05:35:50 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p442-110.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.149.110]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e4B5ZlL26749 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:35:47 +0200 Message-ID: <00fe01bfbb0a$a6fe1640$6e952fc3@richardmayhew> To: "Mornington" Subject: Reactivation Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:55:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" I go Active again. I resign from all Games that I currently play in. Now, does this mean that we have to discuss which Games to play? Or is = Mornomic dead? Ahhh.. and a totally OffTopic question: do any of you know Extreme = Programming? Ole From snowl@s... Thu May 11 09:22:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14950 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 16:22:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 May 2000 16:22:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 May 2000 16:22:01 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.182] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12pviq-000GfU-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:22:00 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01bfbb64$83c4cde0$b64c08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <8fbguq+ct1m@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Re: McMapper v0.2 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:23:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Kevan said: > > I've replaced the old semi-working MCMapper v0.1.1 with new semi- > working MCEditor and MCViewer. > > I didn't even know there was an old semi-working one. Where can we > find these treasures? http://www.snow.vg/program/mcmapper.html Not sure about them being treasures though. Snow -Spreading love and peace through the medium of extreme violence. From snowl@s... Thu May 11 09:22:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15008 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 16:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 May 2000 16:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 May 2000 16:22:03 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.182] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12pvir-000GfU-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:22:01 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01bfbb64$847d6f80$b64c08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <00fe01bfbb0a$a6fe1640$6e952fc3@richardmayhew> Subject: Re: Reactivation Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:47:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Ole said: > I go Active again. OK > I resign from all Games that I currently play in. > > Now, does this mean that we have to discuss which Games to play? Or is Mornomic dead? Not dead, just resting. Kevan said something shortly before Mornomic went to sleep. That MN should move away from the Nomic side and start a Ruleset that should become static. IMO the current Ruleset is too bulky for sensible play. I would favour a much slimmer Ruleset. I would dump everything from Mornomic other than "a game played on an underground map with MC as the winning station" unless it definitly helps the game and start from there. Of course we can draw on the current ruleset where appropriate and any new ruleset could be run in parallel with the current one. What do you think? Does Mornomic need a change of direction? Or should we just carry on as we are? > Ahhh.. and a totally OffTopic question: do any of you know Extreme Programming? No, but you've grabbed my attention. What is Extreme Programming? Snow -Longer than a piece of string. From riffraff@n... Thu May 11 12:51:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26449 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 19:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 May 2000 19:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 May 2000 19:51:19 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16072 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:50:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:55:36 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Reactivation X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> Now, does this mean that we have to discuss which Games to play? Or >is Mornomic dead? > >Not dead, just resting. Me too. :) > >Kevan said something shortly before Mornomic went to sleep. That MN >should move away from the Nomic side and start a Ruleset that should >become static. I'll second that. > >IMO the current Ruleset is too bulky for sensible play. I would favour >a much slimmer Ruleset. I would dump everything from Mornomic other >than "a game played on an underground map with MC as the winning >station" unless it definitly helps the game and start from there. Agreed, there certainly is a lot that could be trimmed. A lot of the more complicated Possessions, for instance. IMHO most of the elements that turn the game into more of a "pretend you're travelling on the Tube" game rather than a regular (albeit complicated) board game, can be removed... S'pose I should go see what's actually changed since I last played... >> Ahhh.. and a totally OffTopic question: do any of you know Extreme >Programming? > >No, but you've grabbed my attention. What is Extreme Programming? Sounds familiar, but I can't bring it to mind. > >Snow >-Longer than a piece of string. --Riff -Bigger than a breadbox "I'm a non-local quantum event - I exist at _all_ points in space and time!" --Riff From palnatoke@g... Thu May 11 15:24:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13821 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 22:24:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 May 2000 22:24:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 May 2000 22:24:16 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p440-109.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.148.109]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e4BMO8L08597 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 00:24:08 +0200 Message-ID: <02b701bfbb97$858f9aa0$bbdb52c3@richardmayhew> To: References: <00fe01bfbb0a$a6fe1640$6e952fc3@richardmayhew> <001f01bfbb64$847d6f80$b64c08c3@snow> Subject: Re: Re: Reactivation Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:52:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" : IMO the current Ruleset is too bulky for sensible play. I would favour : a much slimmer Ruleset. I would dump everything from Mornomic other : than "a game played on an underground map with MC as the winning : station" unless it definitly helps the game and start from there. :=20 : Of course we can draw on the current ruleset where appropriate and any : new ruleset could be run in parallel with the current one. :=20 : What do you think? Does Mornomic need a change of direction? Or should : we just carry on as we are? We could archive the current ruleset and make a new one. Once that one = gets too bulky, we could... No really, that could be a nice way of getting around the problem. What are the *absolute necessities*? :=20 : > Ahhh.. and a totally OffTopic question: do any of you know Extreme : Programming? :=20 : No, but you've grabbed my attention. What is Extreme Programming? It is a lightweight development methodology, which takes a number of = 'Best Practices' and combines them to offset each others' weaknesses. = Certainly not a road for everyone, but quite a number of the ideas seem = quite good. If you have net access at affordable rates, check = http://www.extremeprogramming.org and = http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ExtremeProgrammingRoadmap for more. Ole From WayperP@p... Thu May 11 15:52:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14450 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 22:52:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 May 2000 22:52:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 May 2000 22:52:23 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA21096; Fri, 12 May 2000 08:52:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa21001; Fri, 12 May 00 08:52:05 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 12 May 2000 08:52:04 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Reactivation Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:52:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" *gasp* Look - Mornington Nomic! It lives! On Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:56 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > I go Active again. > > I resign from all Games that I currently play in. Now there's an interesting idea. We all resign the current games, and then start afresh. I'd hate to give up my lead in the Long Game, but it's probably for the best. Does this sound like a good idea? > Now, does this mean that we have to discuss which Games to play? Or is > Mornomic dead? No, I'm just getting back to it. I'm considering moving my play base to home (i.e. not playing so much at work), which just might give me the time necessary to contemplate moves. But it does give me something to do whilst waiting for things to actually work here... > Ahhh.. and a totally OffTopic question: do any of you know Extreme > Programming? Nope - never heard of it? Writing perl scripts while skidding down a 45 degree slope on a rollered mat? Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Fri May 12 03:17:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30873 invoked from network); 12 May 2000 10:17:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 May 2000 10:17:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qg.egroups.com) (10.1.2.27) by mta1 with SMTP; 12 May 2000 10:17:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 9434 invoked from network); 12 May 2000 10:17:56 -0000 Received: from cj.egroups.com (10.1.2.82) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 12 May 2000 10:17:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.96] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2000 10:17:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:17:47 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Whither Mornomic? Message-ID: <8fglob+atpf@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1701 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " >IMO the current Ruleset is too bulky for sensible play. I would favour >a much slimmer Ruleset. I would dump everything from Mornomic other >than "a game played on an underground map with MC as the winning >station" unless it definitly helps the game and start from there. Mm, two ways to go, really - we can either sit down and try to make a fitting replacement for the existing Ruleset (keeping the basic mechanics, trimming extranea and writing a snappy and legible set of rules) or detonate the whole lot and start afresh (maybe making the game more word-based than physical, or whatever, taking a completely new tack). The former appeals more to me, I think, although it would mean, for sanity's sake, dropping the "Nomic" side of things and establishing a ruleset via informal discussion (with one person acting as scribe, I suppose). "This week we're going to discuss Blocking." Ultimately we'd produce a concise, comprehensible ruleset, as user- friendly as something you might find packaged with a boardgame; from there, future ruleset amendment and expansion (not that there'd be much) would be along the lines of a slow-but-sure IMCS-style review board, I suppose, with new Actions and fixes to old ones maybe creeping in every few months. Hm. (If anyone mourns the loss of Nomickery and feels the urge to get back into it, incidentally, I might recommend the DNA-based Genomic (http://www.crosswinds.net/~genomic) or cleverly-automated Unanomic (http://www.ravenblack.net/~unanomic), both going rather strong and still in early-ish days.) Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Foot-and-a-half max. We could keep it in the breadbin." From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Fri May 12 10:08:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17066 invoked from network); 12 May 2000 17:08:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 May 2000 17:08:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 12 May 2000 17:08:34 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id RAA27171 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 17:08:34 GMT Received: from unknown(134.204.14.95) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xma026761; Fri, 12 May 00 17:07:22 GMT Subject: Re: MN: Whither Mornomic? To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:07:20 -0700 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SV-GW1/Seagate Internet(Release 5.0.2a (Intl)|23 November 1999) at 05/12/2000 10:07:22 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... I am with Kevan on this one - a concise set of rules seems to me to be the better way to go. Not that I have given much in put to MorNomic recently, but part of the reason why I didn't get back into it is that I didn't have the time to get my head round the huge quantity of rules which had appeared in my absense. Now, with the possibility of getting an ISP at home, I will be able to play from home rather than work. I am suffering from the same realisation as PaulWay, these buggers for whom I work actually want me to do something whilst I am here, not piss about like I did when doing my PhD. Can't complain too much, the money is rather better than being a postgrad student. So, I think a Proposal along the lines outlined by Kevan should be tabled - do we actually have a functioning Speaker at the moment? miKi "Kevan " on 05/12/2000 03:17:47 AM Please respond to l-nomic-d@egroups.com To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com cc: Subject: MN: Whither Mornomic? >IMO the current Ruleset is too bulky for sensible play. I would favour >a much slimmer Ruleset. I would dump everything from Mornomic other >than "a game played on an underground map with MC as the winning >station" unless it definitly helps the game and start from there. Mm, two ways to go, really - we can either sit down and try to make a fitting replacement for the existing Ruleset (keeping the basic mechanics, trimming extranea and writing a snappy and legible set of rules) or detonate the whole lot and start afresh (maybe making the game more word-based than physical, or whatever, taking a completely new tack). The former appeals more to me, I think, although it would mean, for sanity's sake, dropping the "Nomic" side of things and establishing a ruleset via informal discussion (with one person acting as scribe, I suppose). "This week we're going to discuss Blocking." Ultimately we'd produce a concise, comprehensible ruleset, as user- friendly as something you might find packaged with a boardgame; from there, future ruleset amendment and expansion (not that there'd be much) would be along the lines of a slow-but-sure IMCS-style review board, I suppose, with new Actions and fixes to old ones maybe creeping in every few months. Hm. (If anyone mourns the loss of Nomickery and feels the urge to get back into it, incidentally, I might recommend the DNA-based Genomic (http://www.crosswinds.net/~genomic) or cleverly-automated Unanomic (http://www.ravenblack.net/~unanomic), both going rather strong and still in early-ish days.) Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Foot-and-a-half max. We could keep it in the breadbin." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ beMANY! has a new way to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving more each month: Our huge buying group gives you Long Distance rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls! http://click.egroups.com/1/3821/10/_/9641/_/958126676/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From palnatoke@g... Fri May 12 13:18:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26183 invoked from network); 12 May 2000 20:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 May 2000 20:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 May 2000 20:18:16 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p462-17.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.137.145]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e4CKH5D25072 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 22:17:05 +0200 Message-ID: <02dc01bfbc4f$17ba8040$0a872fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: <8fglob+atpf@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Whither Mornomic? Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:53:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Kevan wrote: : The former appeals more to me, I think, although it would mean, for=20 : sanity's sake, dropping the "Nomic" side of things and establishing a=20 : ruleset via informal discussion (with one person acting as scribe, I=20 : suppose). "This week we're going to discuss Blocking." Well, that *could* be implemented in a Nomic, so the Speaker chose a = theme for discussion and proposals. :=20 : Ultimately we'd produce a concise, comprehensible ruleset, as user- : friendly as something you might find packaged with a boardgame; from=20 : there, future ruleset amendment and expansion (not that there'd be=20 : much) would be along the lines of a slow-but-sure IMCS-style review=20 : board, I suppose, with new Actions and fixes to old ones maybe=20 : creeping in every few months. Hm. :=20 : (If anyone mourns the loss of Nomickery and feels the urge to get=20 : back into it, incidentally, I might recommend the DNA-based Genomic=20 : (http://www.crosswinds.net/~genomic) or cleverly-automated Unanomic=20 : (http://www.ravenblack.net/~unanomic), both going rather strong and=20 : still in early-ish days.) Both look nice. Especially nice is it to see the jetsam and flotsam of = various net games - both players and ideas. Ole From riffraff@n... Fri May 12 14:17:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17498 invoked from network); 12 May 2000 21:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 May 2000 21:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 May 2000 21:17:20 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA17456 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 17:16:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:21:38 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Whither Mornomic? X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Ultimately we'd produce a concise, comprehensible ruleset, as user- >friendly as something you might find packaged with a boardgame; I don't know everone's stand on this, but personally, I'd like to see this comment considered literally - i.e. that we end up with a set of rules for a game that could concievably be played in Real Life, with a map and some pawns and tokens. (Or at least bits of paper to keep track of tokens and possessions.) So, we'd have to do away with 295-sided dice, and suchlike. Anyay, my opinion. Whaddya think? --Riff "I'm a non-local quantum event - I exist at _all_ points in space and time!" --Riff From kevan@s... Sun May 14 05:15:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19770 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 12:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 May 2000 12:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 May 2000 12:15:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 25059 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 12:15:37 -0000 Received: from mr.egroups.com (10.1.1.37) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 14 May 2000 12:15:37 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.30] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2000 12:15:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:15:32 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Whither Mornomic? Message-ID: <8fm5d4+d88q@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5055 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " >I don't know everone's stand on this, but personally, I'd like to see this >comment considered literally - i.e. that we end up with a set of rules for >a game that could concievably be played in Real Life, with a map and some >pawns and tokens. (Or at least bits of paper to keep track of tokens and >possessions.) So, we'd have to do away with 295-sided dice, and suchlike. It's a challenging and long-considered balance, though, getting something that's as playable in real life as it is via sluggish email. Clearly the existing Mornington Nomic framework is far too fiddly and complex to make an easy transition to the tabletop (stuff like Game Time would be too much effort for too little purpose, LV and Charge would be a pain to keep tabs on, remembering all the Actions would be a nightmare, and so forth), just as a normal, information-heavy boardgame (Monopoly or Scrabble, say) would be rather fiddly to convert to email play. "Mornington Crescent: The Card Game" (www.stormloader.com/kevan/mccg) went some way to bridge the gap, of course, putting nearly all of the movement restrictions in as optional Rule cards, getting around the problem of having to remember dozens of Actions by limiting Players to whatever cards they happened to have in their hands at the time. Which was perfectly good for real-life play, and only slightly clumsy online (fairly playable in a real-time medium, but mailing play would require, I expect, an impartial "dealer" figure to ensure nobody was stacking their deck). Whether MC:CG is worth running with, I'm not sure. I would have predicted its biggest failing was the need for a board, but we've been managing alright without one in the world of Mornington Nomic; something that seems rather surprising, in retrospect. Still, as has been mumbled before, twisting MN into a card game is quite neat, because players aren't expected to memorise huge archives of Actions, and it cuts down the "Hm, can I do something better?" and "Hold on, I'd better consider every possible counter-attack" angles (which are bad enough for veterans, let alone new players) by just giving you a hand of seven cards to choose from. The alternative - having a canonical list of Actions which anyone can use if they can afford the Tokens - isn't entirely ludicrous, though. Provided we can develop a snappy language for the game, there's no reason why it can't be played on a memory-and-reference basis ("Right, I'll play a Parks and Greens Cascade." "What does that do, again?" "Denies Moves to non-Park, non-Green Stations, until someone Moves to a Plant Station." "Oh yes.") Providing each player with a little booklet of Actions (using simple iconic notation for the situations in which they can be played; has anyone else seen "Zarcana"?) would allow them to both choose their tactics and check on those of other players, and it'd probably work quite nicely. The only problem, of course, is that this gives a particularly hefty advantage to veterans, who'd have a far better idea of the Actions that could be useful in a given situation; something that, I fear, has maybe scared away a lot of potential Mornomickers over the years. I suppose it's not *too* bad in an email environment, where timid players can spend hours poring over available Actions and past games before making their move, but in a world of swift real-time play it would become rather intimidating, and would certainly dampen the "teaching a friend to play in five minutes" factor (something which I think any game should try and keep in mind). Boiling down my own conclusions, I think the only way to keep the wonderful, baroque complexity of Mornington Crescent (for me, most of the point of the game is being able to cry "But you can't cross-Shunt me to Amersham, not with Higginson's Nullifier in effect!") is to somehow restrict the Actions available per turn, and having them in a hand of cards seems the most reasonable way to do it (an alternative might be to have ten publicly-visible Actions playable at any given time, shuffling a new one in each Turn, although this seems less dramatic). And the alternative is, of course, to have a much simpler game, and I suppose there's no real reason why we can't do this - maybe a tightly strategic little shunting-and-blocking affair, something like The London Game, but without the random element. Czech Variant, I suppose. Or the tile-laying thing that Ole suggested on the MC:CG mailing list. Hmm. The time has come to jettison the Nomic underbelly, anyway, I think. Ideally any design decision we make should be unanimous, with objecters being brought around by persuasion rather than blankly out-voted. And Nomic-style ruleset authoring is invariably very piecemeal and untidy, in any case - the best approach would be, I think, to just casually discuss how to do something, and nominate someone to write it down neatly when we've decided. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "I play postal chess with a man who doesn't know me." From riffraff@n... Sun May 14 14:43:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10059 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 21:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 May 2000 21:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 May 2000 21:43:13 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07024 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 17:42:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:47:31 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Whither Mornomic? X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >It's a challenging and long-considered balance, though, getting >something that's as playable in real life as it is via sluggish email. >Clearly the existing Mornington Nomic framework is far too fiddly and >complex to make an easy transition to the tabletop (stuff like Game >Time would be too much effort for too little purpose, LV and Charge would >be a pain to keep tabs on, remembering all the Actions would be a >nightmare, and so forth), just as a normal, information-heavy >boardgame (Monopoly or Scrabble, say) would be rather fiddly to convert to >>email play. It would just require more widgets in the box - a clock face with movable hands for the time, dials from 1-10 for LV, special tokens placable on the board to identify blocks, suspect packages, and station fires... and so on. What you end up with is less like Monopoly, and more like one of those huge strategic wargames with a zillion cardboard chiclets in little zip-loc bags, that take a helluva long time to play. Which is fine - I like the idea of people hunched over the board, examining all the little interface gizmos and quietly pondering their next move... Note that I don't mean that it should be designed _purely_ for RL play; just that, in designing an e-mail game, we should keep the idea of a board game in mind and reject rules that would be impossible to use on a board. >The alternative - having a canonical list of Actions which anyone can >use if they can afford the Tokens - isn't entirely ludicrous, though. >Provided we can develop a snappy language for the game, there's no >reason why it can't be played on a memory-and-reference basis ("Right, >I'll play a Parks and Greens Cascade." "What does that do, again?" >"Denies Moves to non-Park, non-Green Stations, until someone Moves to >a Plant Station." "Oh yes.") Providing each player with a little booklet >of Actions (using simple iconic notation for the situations in which >they can be played; has anyone else seen "Zarcana"?) would allow them >to both choose their tactics and check on those of other players, and >it'd probably work quite nicely. Yes, that's what I was thinking. This also falls in line with Original MC: "Has anyone got a copy of the '45 Finsbury Revisions?" "Which volume?" Throw in a laminated card chart of Actions, Costs, and Fosdyke Codes, and you're set. And if there's enough room for simple one-sentence explanations of what the Action does, and a page number for the long explanation in the book, so much the better. >The only problem, of course, is that this gives a particularly hefty >advantage to veterans, who'd have a far better idea of the Actions >that could be useful in a given situation; something that, I fear, has >maybe scared away a lot of potential Mornomickers over the years. I suppose >it's not *too* bad in an email environment, where timid players can >spend hours poring over available Actions and past games before making >their move, but in a world of swift real-time play it would become >rather intimidating, and would certainly dampen the "teaching a friend >to play in five minutes" factor (something which I think any game >should try and keep in mind). Well, the current version of Baker Street is an excellent start to that, I think. And then once a new player has mastered Baker Street, e could move on to Baker Street With Langerhan's Upgrade, which add some possessions and a few more actions. And so on. And of course, the e-mail version would be useful for training as well. The extra time available in an e-mail game would make it play somewhat differently, but that's not a bad thing. In fact, the impetus to speed things up a bit might compel players of the board version to invent strategies and complex manoeuvers beforehand... possibly leading to classic strategies being named and passed around: "And then he came out of nowhere and hit me with 'PaulWay's Death Shunt', and that was it for me." >Boiling down my own conclusions, I think the only way to keep the >wonderful, baroque complexity of Mornington Crescent (for me, most of >the point of the game is being able to cry "But you can't cross-Shunt >me to Amersham, not with Higginson's Nullifier in effect!") is to somehow >restrict the Actions available per turn, and having them in a hand of >cards seems the most reasonable way to do it (an alternative might be >to have ten publicly-visible Actions playable at any given time, >shuffling a new one in each Turn, although this seems less dramatic). Hard to do in e-mail, too. Perhaps we could set up a new class of Manoeuvers that produce a game condtion instead of simply rewarding tokens, i.e. "Higginson's Nullifier: Bank -> Zone 4 -> BR Station (Prevents Shunting for 3 rounds)" >The time has come to jettison the Nomic underbelly, anyway, I think. >Ideally any design decision we make should be unanimous, with >objecters being brought around by persuasion rather than blankly >out-voted. >And Nomic-style ruleset authoring is invariably very piecemeal >and untidy, >in any case - the best approach would be, I think, to just casually >discuss how to do something, and nominate someone to write it down >neatly when we've decided. Ditto to that. cheers, --Riff "I'm a non-local quantum event - I exist at _all_ points in space and time!" --Riff From WayperP@p... Sun May 14 16:37:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10294 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 23:37:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 May 2000 23:37:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 May 2000 23:37:50 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA19725; Mon, 15 May 2000 09:37:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019469; Mon, 15 May 00 09:37:17 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 15 May 2000 09:37:17 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Whither Mornomic? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:37:16 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" I'm going to take the risk of replying to this initial message before I've read the replies, to get my thoughts while they're fresh. To start, I'd like to talk about my ongoing conversation with 'ky', who's just recently started playing at MCiOS. She's quite intelligent, and worked out how standard MC works, but was needing a sort of list of the conventions of play so that she didn't play something completely bland or completely bogus. As part of this, I pointed her to the MN site with the standard disclaimers about Knowledge-that-man-was-not-meant-to-wot-of and This-may-blow-your-mind. She can now see why MC is easier :-) I've started going through the basics with her - read Section 0, then read Sections 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, and 1.5, followed by 1.7 and 1.4. This has got me thinking about writing "The Newcomers Guide to Mornington Nomic - What you need to know in seven easy paragraphs." (for arbitrary values of seven). It's a task I'd like to volunteer for, given that my time may not be a valueless commodity. This, IM(NSH)O, would make the game much more understandable than either a complete restructuring or a complete rewrite. Both of those suffer from the problems inherent in getting one person (or a small number of people) to set out the rules - there will always be inconsistencies where (that person)/(those people's) (blind spots)/(natural assumptions) are. They also take a considerable amount of time, and the process by which they are executed is essentially simulated by the Nomic we have already played. To my mind, MN as it stands gains its complexity not from a basic incomprehensibility of the rules but rather their sheer number and diversity. Any player who knows that they only need to refer to Sections 0 and 1 for the bulk of their play has already reduced their task immeasurably; knowing that you only need to refer to a simple subset of 1.7 for the playable actions likewise cuts down your workload. Those are the things that a new Player needs to be told. If we lobotomise the ruleset, or restructure it to be fundamentally different from the current procedure, we only hamper our own efforts, and we cannot guarantee that those efforts will not be counterproductive to the new Player. Likewise, if we lose the Nomic side of things we lose all pretense that this is a co-operative game and reduce it to a dictatorship, or an oligarchy, where the High Priests hand down the rules and the Mere Players can only obey. How many people want to play something like that? We also lose the mechanisms to bring about change as fairly as we can, and the substitute is dangerously open to accusations of unfairness. So, do people want to consider the third alternative - writing the Guide Book? I'll endeavour to get a rough draft out within the week, but I can't guarantee anything. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From snowl@s... Mon May 15 11:58:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31889 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 18:58:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 18:58:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 18:58:43 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.136] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12rQ4f-000Bt8-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 15 May 2000 19:58:41 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01bfbe9f$0bd74cc0$888d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: RE: Whither Mornomic? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:39:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > If we lobotomise the ruleset, or restructure it to be fundamentally > different from the current procedure, we only hamper our own efforts, and we > cannot guarantee that those efforts will not be counterproductive to the new > Player. Likewise, if we lose the Nomic side of things we lose all pretense > that this is a co-operative game and reduce it to a dictatorship, or an > oligarchy, where the High Priests hand down the rules and the Mere Players > can only obey. How many people want to play something like that? We also > lose the mechanisms to bring about change as fairly as we can, and the > substitute is dangerously open to accusations of unfairness. I think some form of democratic system will be needed. But if we carry on with the Nomic system we will have to make quorum 70-80% to make sure the Ruleset is fairly static. And at the moment that could give any one person a veto. We should keep in mind that we are trying to produce a static version of the ruleset (if we decide that we are). At the moment there's a lot of gubbins in the Ruleset that is not directly related to playing the game, mostly Volume 0 and the Rule concerning points in Volume 1. I think there should be a more distinct separation. Something like a constitution to deal with which Lounges games are played in, changes to the Ruleset (when needed) and other bureaucracy. And the ruleset itself kept separate and unsullied by "politics". > So, do people want to consider the third alternative - writing the Guide > Book? I'll endeavour to get a rough draft out within the week, but I can't > guarantee anything. If you need to refer the the ruleset it's too complicated. If you need to write a guide to the ruleset it's unplayable. Unless your guide could act as a ruleset unto itself I can't see the point (other opinions are available). Snow -I think bureaucracy should be spelt better. From riffraff@n... Mon May 15 14:21:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27652 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 21:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 21:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 21:21:57 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA13347 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:21:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:26:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Whither Mornomic? X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> So, do people want to consider the third alternative - writing the >Guide >> Book? I'll endeavour to get a rough draft out within the week, but >I can't >> guarantee anything. > >If you need to refer the the ruleset it's too complicated. If you need >to write a guide to the ruleset it's unplayable. Unless your guide >could act as a ruleset unto itself I can't see the point (other >opinions are available). I think having a complicated game that sometimes requires referring to the ruleset is fine, and perfectly in keeping with the Mornington Crescent theme. However, I agree that a ruleset that needs a guide of its own is a poorly-written (or at least poorly-organized) ruleset. I think probably the best way to go about it would be to simply take each rule in turn, discuss its worth and any necessary alterations or rephrasings, as well as where in the ruleset it should go, and come to our final decision whether to dump it or keep it by consensus rather than by vote. I don't think this really constitutes an Oligarchy of Evil Overlords, because, really, anyone interested is on the list. And anyone on the list is free to jump in and discuss. And, again, Original MC has its ruling councils too. Should we be CAMREC or the IMCS? :) cheers, --Riff "I'm a non-local quantum event - I exist at _all_ points in space and time!" --Riff From WayperP@p... Mon May 15 16:04:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30555 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:04:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 23:04:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:04:52 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA01627; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:04:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa01543; Tue, 16 May 00 09:04:30 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:04:30 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Re: RE: Whither Mornomic? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:04:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Wayper, Paul" On Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:39 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > I think some form of democratic system will be needed. But if we carry > on with the Nomic system we will have to make quorum 70-80% to make > sure the Ruleset is fairly static. And at the moment that could give > any one person a veto. We should keep in mind that we are trying to > produce a static version of the ruleset (if we decide that we are). Why exactly are we trying to produce a static version of the ruleset? If that's the case, I suggest each person goes off and writes their own little version and tries to convince other people to play it, because that's what's going to happen if we go down this 'one person rewrite' track. I would change quite a lot of things that are in the current MN ruleset - Remote Controls, pigeons, hats, and courier calls would all go. But because we're playing a _co-operative_ game, I don't continually try to force people to accept this point of view by proposing repeals all the time. Likewise, I accept when other people don't particularly like a modification to the game that I propose. I'm not threatening here, just making a real-world prediction. One big advantage of this game is that another person with their own idea of how MC should be played could come along and add eir opinions into the formula. If we go down the track of fixing the ruleset in stone that new player could cause a schism by writing eir own ruleset and draining our already sparse player resources in some sort of virtual bun-fight. No-one wants that. > At the moment there's a lot of gubbins in the Ruleset that is not > directly related to playing the game, mostly Volume 0 and the Rule > concerning points in Volume 1. I think there should be a more distinct > separation. Something like a constitution to deal with which Lounges > games are played in, changes to the Ruleset (when needed) and other > bureaucracy. And the ruleset itself kept separate and unsullied by > "politics". I think you're seeing problems where none exist. The Volume 0 rules haven't been updated in ages, nor have they needed to be. They don't interfere in the playing of MC except in the most ephemeral way - i.e you don't need to know a whole lot about Volume 0 in order to actually play. Likewise, there are a lot of rules in Volume 1 that can be ignored when contemplating one's move. These are identifiable, and it's my belief that a guide book makes that task easier. And what 'politics' are you talking about? Surely you can't be suggesting that people are being less than honest in their dealings with MN? > If you need to refer the the ruleset it's too complicated. If you need > to write a guide to the ruleset it's unplayable. Unless your guide > could act as a ruleset unto itself I can't see the point (other > opinions are available). Put bluntly, I think you're talking through your hat. Look at the rules of Monopoly some time. It's not a simple document. But everyone knows how to play because of the 80/20 rule - 80% of the rules are used 20% of the time and vice versa. You only need to know about moving your counter and what happens when you land on properties for most of your actual play, but the rules have to cover what the bank can and cannot do, what happens if someone cannot pay, or various things like that. All rule systems are like that. People write guides to chess! This is not because it has a vast, unwieldy set of rules, but they are simplifying the learning process and teaching people how to get beyond the simple constructs of which pieces can move how. And remember this conversation next time you try to teach a person a trick-based card game (e.g. 500 or Up And Down The River). Play a couple of Cheapass Games (http://www.cheapass.com) sometime. They spend a lot of time making the rules as simple as possible without sacrificing the fun factor. They too aren't particularly simple documents, although most of them just take up an A4 page. They're a good example of how to write rules for intelligent people. They set out the bulk of the rules you need to play first, and then 'cover the bases' later with explaining what happens in complicated circumstances. What I'm saying here is that the ruleset is a way of simply defining what can be done. A guide is a way of explaining how to play normally - it outlines the general principles and then refers to the specific rules so the reader can see the actual definitions. I'll post what I have so far in a separate message. Hopefully this will make what I'm attempting to do clearer. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Mon May 15 16:08:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15864 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:08:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 23:08:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:08:02 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA02736; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:07:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002666; Tue, 16 May 00 09:07:44 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:07:44 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: The PaulWay Guide To Mornington Nomic Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:07:41 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Wayper, Paul" The PaulWay Guide to Mornington Nomic Or Across the Jubilee with Map, Rules and bits of string. Introduction: Mornington Crescent is, as any fule kno, that quintessential brain-stretcher popularised by the BBC radio show I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue. For those who still live in daub-and-wattle huts in the middle of Peru, the essence of Mornington Crescent is to get to the eponymous station by moving along the London Underground. The rules can be difficult to find at best, since most libraries refuse to stock them and the internet site of the International Mornington Crescent Society is often completely absent from the internet entirely. Nomics, on the other hand, are a generic form of meta-game popularised by Douglas Hofstadter. Their basic mode of play is to modify the rules of the game; winning is often achieved by putting the game in an unplayable state. The more formalised Nomics start with a body of rules defining how players go about changing things; they often involve a Speaker to co-ordinate the entire process. Often, in Nomics, a 'sub-game' will develop which can affect the winning conditions. Mornington Nomic is the combination of those two concepts. Started back in ??? by Kevan Davis, it was a (startlingly successful) attempt to codify the more popular rules of MC and play conventions into an actual playable game. It has evolved many times, from a very blunt and often very confusing game into one with a surprising amount of regularity. This has come at the cost of having almost 300KB of rule documents - an array bewildering even for experts in MN. This document is an attempt to explain the basics of play and afford new players to MN an easy way to get a grip on how to actually play the game without having to learn the entire game. Please forward all comment on whether I have actually succeeded in this aim to myself, PaulWay, using the address "paulway@e...". Document History Version Date Author Changes 0.1 15/5/2000 PaulWay Initial document drafting - wrote the Introduction. How it works The game of MN functions on two fronts: The Nomic: The Nomic side of MN is where new rules get drafted, proposed, voted on, and (if they pass) added into the ruleset. The rules recognise specific objects or titles when they are capitalised; when a term is capitalised it is because the person who proposed the rule wanted it to be recognised as being governed by a specific set of rules. This is not necessarily always the case, and references to a player (as distinct from a Player) may still be governed by rules. It all depends on context. People are split into three groups, the Speaker, other Players in MN, and everyone else. Only the former two are actually playing MN - everyone else just watches on. The Speaker has a specific set of duties set out by the rules, among which are the collection and distribution of Proposals and the publishing of the results of the voting. Section 0.3 covers the rules specifically relating to Players and the Speaker, but most of the ruleset is about how the Speaker, the Players, and the Rules interact. In the Nomic side, time is divided up into Weeks. Most Nomic actions take a week to perform - if you propose something this week, it's published next week. If you vote this week, the proposal passes or fails next week. There are a few actions which can be taken instantly, such as the Speaker proposing an Emergency Proposal to cure some particular immediate problem with the rules; most of the time you wait for a week. Players make Proposals according to Section 0.4, in which they propose to make changes to the rules. To make a Proposal, you draft one up and send it in an email to the Speaker, who sends it out with all the others at the start of the next Week. The Subject field of the email should start with the words "MN: Proposal" otherwise the Speaker may not accept it (they can be lenient if they're not pressed for time). A general guide to formatting a Proposal is: Proposal - The name of the Proposal [Proposal Type (see Rule 0.4.1)] The body of the Proposal. This is where you write what you want to happen if the Proposal passes. In the case of an enactment, you just write the body text of the new rule. If otherwise, you write a slightly more verbose description of what you want to occur. Try to be specific rather than general, because ambiguity is a big problem and we try to avoid it where possible. {In curly braces, you can insert whatever 'commentary' text you want. This has no effect on the Proposal but is a way of communicating your thoughts and rationales for this Proposal to the other Players when they vote on it. You can include your name if you want to, but it's not necessary.} When you vote, you do so by sending an email to the Speaker. Once again, you should put "MN: Votes" in the sart of the Subject line so that the Speaker knows what to do with it. On each line, include the proposal number and your vote. I use the form: Proposal 391: FOR Proposal 392: PASS Proposal 393: AGAINST If you don't vote on a proposal, you're assumed to be passing. However, each proposal must have a number of votes on it otherwise it doesn't reach quorum. This means that if the number of people who don't vote (abstain) on a proposal is larger than the number of people who voted (even if they PASSed) then the proposal is automatically rejected. This is to avoid the situation where a player takes advantage of some lull in the proceedings to put a controversial proposal into the works and then get eir cronies to vote for it while the majority are asleep. In practice, this rarely happens, and people just forget to vote. Voting is something you should do every week. In general, the Nomic side exists to provide a medium for adding to the rules for MC. It's generally frowned upon to try and enact Nomic rules which affect MC states - e.g. enacting a rule which gives a specific player (e.g. yourself) three Gold Tokens. Also frowned upon is trying to put the Nomic in an unplayable state - again because the Nomic side is merely a vehicle for organising changes to the MC rules. The Games of Mornington Crescent Each Game is embodied in a Game State Document (GSD). It consists of a header which details the 'state of play', a series of Turns submitted by Players, and mail footers from both the list and the player's own footers - these are ignored for the purposes of evaluating the GSD. Each GSD comprises a single game of MC and resides on one individual discussion list on Egroups, which is used exclusively for the purpose of posting discussion related to that game alone. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Mon May 15 16:20:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18963 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 23:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:20:10 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA29625 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 19:19:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:24:28 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: The PaulWay Guide To Mornington Nomic X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >The PaulWay Guide to Mornington Nomic ("The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to Mornington Crescent"?) Okay, I grok. This looks like a Good Thing. However, I still think the rules themselves could stand to be generally reorginized, tidied up, and have some of the fat trimmed out. Then we'd have a guide to an excellent and well-organized game, rather than a guide to a quite good, yet poorly-organized game. --Riff "I'm a non-local quantum event - I exist at _all_ points in space and time!" --Riff From WayperP@p... Mon May 15 16:23:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12541 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 23:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:23:27 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA10023; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:23:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma009816; Tue, 16 May 00 09:22:52 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:22:52 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: The PaulWay Guide To Mornington Nomic Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:22:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:24 AM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > >The PaulWay Guide to Mornington Nomic > > ("The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to Mornington Crescent"?) Great idea! Consider it done. > Okay, I grok. This looks like a Good Thing. > However, I still think the rules themselves could stand to be generally > reorginized, tidied up, and have some of the fat trimmed out. Then we'd > have a guide to an excellent and well-organized game, rather than a guide > to a quite good, yet poorly-organized game. I agree! Propose away! I also like the thought that someone else had that we should have a weekly focus. However, I don't think this needs to be codified, I just think we need to talk about things more on the list. To that end, read another message... Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Mon May 15 16:36:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17936 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 May 2000 23:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:36:37 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA17352; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:36:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma017273; Tue, 16 May 00 09:36:23 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:36:23 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: Proposal - current discussion topic Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:36:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" People, Following on from my general conversation in other mails, I suggest that we start a current discussion topic - a sort of focus for our ministrations on the ruleset. I'm going to suggest we start by considering how Actions are organised. For instance, I like the table in 1.7.2, where each action is listed with its 'arguments', costs and benefits, timing, duration, and relevant rule. I'd love to code more information in here, but the big question is how much can you put in without either making it incomprehensible or, even worse, out of date. The Fosdyke Requirements, in particular, are not guaranteed to be correct. But to approach the problem from another angle, I think that a lot of the confusion is that there's no real standard way to phrase Action rules. IMO they need a sort of header, similar to the columns in the 1.7.2 table, and then the rule description. This too needs to be more consistent, so that one Rule doesn't say "This Action allows a Special Move to " and another says "After performing this Action, the Piece now exists at ." In part, we've gone some way to doing this - standardising things like Special Moves, Pieces, and other terminology. However, I still think that the wording of Actions needs to be standardised in some useful way. This would allow people to skim rules much more quickly to find the one that they wanted. What do other people think? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Mon May 15 17:30:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9155 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 00:30:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 May 2000 00:30:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 May 2000 00:30:33 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10155 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:30:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:34:52 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Proposal - current discussion topic X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >For instance, I like the table in 1.7.2, where each action is listed with >its 'arguments', costs and benefits, timing, duration, and relevant rule. >I'd love to code more information in here, but the big question is how much >can you put in without either making it incomprehensible or, even worse, >>out of date. The Fosdyke Requirements, in particular, are not guaranteed >>to be correct. They're also a bit confusing, although they certainly look efficient... >But to approach the problem from another angle, I think that a lot of the >confusion is that there's no real standard way to phrase Action rules. IMO >they need a sort of header, similar to the columns in the 1.7.2 table, and >then the rule description. This too needs to be more consistent, so that >one Rule doesn't say "This Action allows a Special Move to " and >another says "After performing this Action, the Piece now exists at >." Wasn't there a Proposal that wanted to change 'Special Move' to 'Translocation'? Did that pass? Special Moves have always seemed a bit puzzling... is Action X a Special Move? Is a Special Move a Move? Do Special Moves follow a (blockable) path, or are they teleportations? Perhaps there's a first thing to change: make some Special Moves Translocations instead. Translocations (such as a Compass Wormhole) do not follow a path, and do not change your Charge; Special Moves _do_ follow a path (Straddling, frinstance), and _do_ change your Charge. (But, I digress) >In part, we've gone some way to doing this - standardising things like >Special Moves, Pieces, and other terminology. However, I still think that >the wording of Actions needs to be standardised in some useful way. This >would allow people to skim rules much more quickly to find the one that >>they wanted. This could be done by devising some Action catagories, that could be added to the Action list: Blocking ... Block Bulkheading ... Block Fire at ... Block Straddling to ... Sp. Move Walking to ... Sp. Move Wormhole to ... Transloc. Home ... Transloc. Narging ... Clamp Spooning ... Clamp Gold to Blue ... Token Ex. Recycling ... Token Ex. Into Knip ... Game State Mind The Gap ... Game State Then you could have two action lists: One simple alphabetical one ("What page is Narging on?") (This could be placed at the end of the rules, as a general index) and one divided into sections ("I need a block, what are my options?") --Riff "I'm a non-local quantum event - I exist at _all_ points in space and time!" --Riff From riffraff@n... Mon May 15 18:03:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7861 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 01:03:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 May 2000 01:03:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 May 2000 01:03:41 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA16139 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 21:03:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:07:56 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN Discussion: Theme X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... I'd like to propose a second, somewhat more global topic here: I think (although I may have misunderstood) that Kevan suggested a halting of the Nomic aspect of MN and a re-examination of the rules for the purpose of tightening up MN into a more definitive Game, rather than the loose, messy collection of rules that Nomics seem to invariably become (MN certainly being no exception). The main problem I see with Mornington Nomic, is that we're operating with two seperate themes: a Real Rules version of Traditional MC (Blocks, Straddles, Manoeuvers, Knip, Shunts, etc.), and also a sort of MC Role-Playing (Pigeons, Overcoats, Busking, Station Fires, Streaking, etc.). This has the effect of making the game rather muddled, and I think we should choose one theme, one direction that we want the game to go, and either discard rules that don't fit the theme, or re-define them to fit if they're rules that seem necessary to keep. (Or even keep them unchanged if they're inoffensive enough. I mean, Zone Passes? Fine. Hard Hats... okay. But Vacuum Cleaners?) Personally, I'd like to see MN changed to Traditional MC (and I suspect Paul agrees, for one.) Discuss? --Riff (getting off the soapbox and putting away his CAMREC card) "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Mon May 15 19:48:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20410 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 02:48:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 May 2000 02:48:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 May 2000 02:48:12 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id MAA27879; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:48:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma027741; Tue, 16 May 00 12:47:54 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:47:54 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN Discussion: Theme Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:47:52 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:08 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > The main problem I see with Mornington Nomic, is that we're operating > with > two seperate themes: a Real Rules version of Traditional MC (Blocks, > Straddles, Manoeuvers, Knip, Shunts, etc.), and also a sort of MC > Role-Playing (Pigeons, Overcoats, Busking, Station Fires, Streaking, > etc.). Astute. I agree with your reasoning here. It's the Role-playing, as a whole, which seems to be outside my usual 'definition' of playing Mornington Crescent. Obviously, therefore, I would be more in favour of discarding the Role-playing stuff and keeping the Traditional stuff. > they're inoffensive enough. I mean, Zone Passes? Fine. Hard Hats... > okay. But Vacuum Cleaners?) Pianos? In some ways I think this could spawn the schism I was talking about before. In a way I would like to inculcate both variants into a common structure - have the Volume 1 rules which deal with the mechanics of entering a move, how it's processed, and so forth, Volume 2, which is Traditional MC, and Volume 3, which is Role-playing. Volumes 2 and 3 both rely on Volume 1. However, the other way to do it is to say that the Role-playing side of it is more suited to a free-form game where people are less constrained by actual rules when they write their moves. At the risk of being divisive I would say to those people: There are now more MC servers than ever. Play there. So, Riff, you were right. :-) Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From palnatoke@g... Wed May 17 05:17:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7782 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 12:17:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 May 2000 12:17:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 May 2000 12:17:40 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p463-102.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.138.102]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e4HCFrD12066 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 14:16:13 +0200 Message-ID: <008401bfbff9$bcd06880$668a2fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: RE: MN Discussion: Theme Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:13:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Paul wrote: :=20 : In some ways I think this could spawn the schism I was talking about = before. : In a way I would like to inculcate both variants into a common = structure - : have the Volume 1 rules which deal with the mechanics of entering a = move, : how it's processed, and so forth, Volume 2, which is Traditional MC, = and : Volume 3, which is Role-playing. Volumes 2 and 3 both rely on Volume = 1. My view is more like: 1. CAMREC, which holds the Boardgame elements, and 2. IMCS, which holds CAMREC plus the Roleplaying elements. Then each Game would be labelled CAMREC-Style or IMCS-Style. :=20 : However, the other way to do it is to say that the Role-playing side = of it : is more suited to a free-form game where people are less constrained = by : actual rules when they write their moves. At the risk of being = divisive I : would say to those people: There are now more MC servers than ever. = Play : there. Well, if you have a pointer or two ready, I would like to see what it is = like... But I'll probably stay here, anyways. Ole From snowl@s... Wed May 17 10:31:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7833 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 17:31:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 May 2000 17:31:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 May 2000 17:31:23 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12s7fE-000L0Y-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:31:21 +0100 Message-ID: <00f801bfc025$2aaa73c0$528d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: Direction needed. Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:04:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" We need to decide what we're doing or not doing, before we start doing it. The questions I think we need to answer are: a) Does everything work as it is? b) Do we want a "static" version of the game? c) Do we want to scrap everything and start again? d) If yes to (c), do we go down the "one person rewrite track". e) Do we drop the Nomic side? If so what do we replace it with? These are my views: a) No b) Yes c) Yes d) I think we need a one-person editor to start with. e) We drop it initially, to make things work fast, once we have a reasonable stable ruleset we reintroduce it, but modified. The plan I would suggest is: 1) Everyone has a good old shouting match about what the game needs and what it doesn't. Each person can contribute bits of ruleset (including bits of the current ruleset). 2) Someone is made editor and goes off with all the bits of ruleset and tries to tie them up. If there are gaps either e tries to fill them eirself or makes a note for everyone to think about. 3) Everyone looks at the ruleset and we have a vote on whether it is acceptable as a starting point. If not goto (1). 4) We then start up some form of fast-track Nomic system to edit the ruleset. 5) Once the ruleset is "stable" we modify the nomic system so that it can only be changed with a large majority. 6) We play. Before all that I think we would need to decide on the democratic systems we will use at each stage (how we decide the editor, how we vote to approve the intial ruleset, how the fast-track nomic works, how the stable nomic works). I would also suggest that these systems be kept separate from the game rules (to avoid confusion to newbies). I keep using the word nomic in all this, but I am advocating a game which is essentially not a nomic, and thus a different game to Mornomic. What does everybody think? Snow -Fighting custard for the good of the planet.. From snowl@s... Wed May 17 10:31:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26461 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 17:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 May 2000 17:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 May 2000 17:31:24 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12s7fG-000L0Y-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:31:23 +0100 Message-ID: <00f901bfc025$2b9d1120$528d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: New Player - Brown Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:42:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" We have a new player. To be known as Brown. Welcome Brown. Snow -I am perfect, please corrupt me. From riffraff@n... Wed May 17 15:37:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11324 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 22:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 May 2000 22:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 May 2000 22:37:33 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23343 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:37:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:41:52 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Direction needed. X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >These are my views: >a) Does everything work as it is? >a) No Agree. >b) Do we want a "static" version of the game? >b) Yes Yes, mostly. I think it should be possible for new stuff to be added, but only with full or nearly-full consensus, and only after we've gone through a couple test games. (Or if it's discovered we're missing something vital.) Idea: MC, historically, is an oft-updated game anyway. Suppose, instead of adding new rules one at a time, we waited until we had a dozen or so, and called it "The 1952 Updike Revisions" or whatever. Then we also have instant variations to choose from, just like classic MC. Of course, this doesn't matter until we have the first revision finished. >c) Do we want to scrap everything and start again? >c) Yes Weeell... depends what you mean. I don't think we should start _completely_ over from scratch. I think we should go down the list of what we've got and say "keep it, toss it, keep it, keep it, toss it...", then make new stuff to fill any gaps. >d) If yes to (c), do we go down the "one person rewrite track". >d) I think we need a one-person editor to start with. If by 'editor' you mean 'scribe', then yes. But I think everyone should have a say in choosing what stays and what goes. >e) Do we drop the Nomic side? If so what do we replace it with? >e) We drop it initially, to make things work fast, once we have a >reasonable stable ruleset we reintroduce it, but modified. Agreed in the sense that there won't be new proposals. But everyone should agree on the changes made. > >The plan I would suggest is: > >1) Everyone has a good old shouting match about what the game needs >and what it doesn't. Each person can contribute bits of ruleset >(including bits of the current ruleset). >2) Someone is made editor and goes off with all the bits of ruleset >and tries to tie them up. If there are gaps either e tries to fill >them eirself or makes a note for everyone to think about. >3) Everyone looks at the ruleset and we have a vote on whether it is >acceptable as a starting point. If not goto (1). >4) We then start up some form of fast-track Nomic system to edit the >ruleset. >5) Once the ruleset is "stable" we modify the nomic system so that it >can only be changed with a large majority. >6) We play. This seems needlessly complicated. I think the ruleset we've got is, in essence, pretty good. It just needs some of the fat trimmed out, re-organized, and tightened up. No need to start completely over this way. >I keep using the word nomic in all this, but I am advocating a game >which is essentially not a nomic, and thus a different game to >Mornomic. True. We could fully take up the CAMREC mantle and call it Real Mornington Crescent. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Wed May 17 16:05:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3623 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 23:05:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 May 2000 23:05:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 May 2000 23:05:32 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA00695; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:05:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma000604; Thu, 18 May 00 09:05:13 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:05:13 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Direction needed. Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:05:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Thursday, May 18, 2000 2:04 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > We need to decide what we're doing or not doing, before we start doing > it. The questions I think we need to answer are: > > a) Does everything work as it is? Yes > b) Do we want a "static" version of the game? No > c) Do we want to scrap everything and start again? No > d) If yes to (c), do we go down the "one person rewrite track". No > e) Do we drop the Nomic side? If so what do we replace it with? No. Keep it. I think you miss another fundamental feature of our current conditions. At the moment play seems to be stalled because people don't have the time to play. In this situation, the chances of someone actually having enough time to sit down and rewrite vast quantities of ruleset are slim at best. Therefore, if we do go down that path we can expect the entire game to crumble into a wilderness of flaky revisions, hesitation, and apathy. This is not a Good Thing, in my opinion. I've been having conversations with ky (from MCiOS) and she's found my Guide (now called the Hitchhiker's Guide to MC) very useful. That from a player completely new to both MC and Nomics is a telling point, again IM(PNSH)O. What did other people think of it? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Wed May 17 16:10:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14570 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 23:10:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 May 2000 23:10:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 May 2000 23:10:51 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA02577; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:10:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002485; Thu, 18 May 00 09:10:33 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:10:33 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Re: RE: MN Discussion: Theme Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:10:26 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:14 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Well, if you have a pointer or two ready, I would like to see what it is > like... But I'll probably stay here, anyways. Ah. Try: http://parslow.com/mornington http://www.dunx.org/cgi-bin/orange-mc for starters. Just remember - MN was the attempt to formalise, or at least set down, the 'rules' in MC... HTH, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Wed May 17 20:39:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20522 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 03:39:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 03:39:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 03:39:45 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA09621 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 23:39:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:44:04 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: RE: Direction needed. X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> e) Do we drop the Nomic side? If so what do we replace it with? > >No. Keep it. > >I think you miss another fundamental feature of our current conditions. At >the moment play seems to be stalled because people don't have the time to >play. In this situation, the chances of someone actually having enough time >to sit down and rewrite vast quantities of ruleset are slim at best. >Therefore, if we do go down that path we can expect the entire game to >crumble into a wilderness of flaky revisions, hesitation, and apathy. This >is not a Good Thing, in my opinion. I think we should at least alter the system to consensus rather than just votes, though. And we need to discuss the proposals much more beforehand. > >I've been having conversations with ky (from MCiOS) and she's found my Guide >(now called the Hitchhiker's Guide to MC) very useful. That from a player >completely new to both MC and Nomics is a telling point, again IM(PNSH)O. ...What's the 'P' stand for? > >What did other people think of it? All I saw was the intro. Could you post the full text? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Wed May 17 20:40:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16353 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 03:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 03:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 03:40:17 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA09690 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 23:39:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:44:37 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: New Player - Brown X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >We have a new player. To be known as Brown. > >Welcome Brown. Hallo, Brown. You've arrived at a rather strange time. :) --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Wed May 17 20:50:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8830 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 03:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 03:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 03:50:16 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA13636; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:50:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma013579; Thu, 18 May 00 13:49:57 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:49:57 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: RE: Direction needed. Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:49:48 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Thursday, May 18, 2000 2:44 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > I think we should at least alter the system to consensus rather than just > votes, though. And we need to discuss the proposals much more beforehand. Agreed. Perhaps we need a fourth type of vote - REFINE. If more than (count(Players)/4) Players vote Refine, the Proposal is carried over to the next Week and the author is encouraged to refine it to the suggestions made on the discussion list. A way of not just trashing proposals that don't immediately appeal or aren't created perfect. > ...What's the 'P' stand for? Probably. In other words, I am biased on this issue, so presenting evidence that proves my claims is not necessarily independent. > All I saw was the intro. Could you post the full text? Er, that's all there is so far. I'll see if I have some more spare time; I've got it at home as well now so I'm going to continue working on it. I should be able to make something that covers all the bases but doesn't take more than, say, four pages. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Wed May 17 20:56:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21644 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 03:56:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 03:56:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 03:55:59 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id NAA16248; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:55:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma016089; Thu, 18 May 00 13:55:30 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:55:30 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: New Player - Brown Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:55:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Thursday, May 18, 2000 2:45 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > >We have a new player. To be known as Brown. > >Welcome Brown. > > Hallo, Brown. You've arrived at a rather strange time. :) Indeed. Greetings, Brown! Introduce yourself somewhat, don't be afraid to speak up :-) Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Wed May 17 21:40:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14944 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 04:40:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 04:40:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 04:40:36 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA15348 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 00:40:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:44:55 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: RE: MN: RE: Direction needed. X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> All I saw was the intro. Could you post the full text? > >Er, that's all there is so far. I'll see if I have some more spare time; >I've got it at home as well now so I'm going to continue working on it. I >should be able to make something that covers all the bases but doesn't take >more than, say, four pages. Well, looks quite good so far. I'm interested to see what you come up with for the beginning Player's guide to the game itself. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Wed May 17 22:34:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13794 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 05:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 05:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 05:34:18 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA17632 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 01:33:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:38:37 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: RE: MN: RE: Direction needed. X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >On Thursday, May 18, 2000 2:44 PM, riffraff@n... >[SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: >> I think we should at least alter the system to consensus rather than just >> votes, though. And we need to discuss the proposals much more beforehand. > >Agreed. Perhaps we need a fourth type of vote - REFINE. If more than >(count(Players)/4) Players vote Refine, the Proposal is carried over to the >next Week and the author is encouraged to refine it to the suggestions made >on the discussion list. A way of not just trashing proposals that don't >immediately appeal or aren't created perfect. The only problem is, it still leaves the possibility for Players to vote against something and have it go through anyway. Personally, I would much prefer for us to continue discussing the topic until _everyone_ feels they can vote For. If we condense the current rules down into a tight, basic ruleset, it's necessary, IMO, for everyone to approve of those rules, because they're going to be the foundation for everything that comes after. I think, for the immediate restructuring to a core ruleset, we can do away with our usual system of automated voting, and go to a purely discussion format. The reason being, the weekly voting schedule isn't going to fit well with the discussion going on - either a topic will be touchy and we'll still be in the middle of discussing it at week's end, or it'll be fairly obvious, we'll reach a consensus right away, and be forced to wait a week to count the votes and move onto the next matter. Here's an example of how I think it could work: Speaker: "Next item of business: Rule x.y.z: Should we keep it? Discuss." [or, alternately:] Speaker: "PaulWay has proposed we delete rules a.b.c - x.y.z. Discuss." [or:] Speaker: "How exactly should Rule x.y.z be phrased? Suggestions?" Kevan: "Foo." PaulWay: "Bar." Snow: "Baz." RiffRaff: "Ling." Kevan: "Ling?" RiffRaff: "Ling." Ole: "Fnord." [Once discussion has died down or appeared to reach a conclusion:] Speaker: "All right, what are your votes?" Kevan: "Aye." RiffRaff: "Aye." Ole: "Aye." Snow: "Aye." PaulWay: "Nay." Speaker: "PaulWay, why Nay?" PaulWay: "Foo." RiffRaff: "Bar." Ole: "Baz." [Etc.] And once we can all agree on the issue, or on a suitable compromise, it gets added to the new ruleset. The advantage is, not only can we get the simple things over with quickly, but we can change proposals to add agreed-upon changes or compromises on the fly, instead of having to wait another week for an updated Proposal. Assuming that everyone has a chance to deal with the e-mail at least once a day (is that a valid assumption? Haven't heard from Kevan in a couple days), and that we could handle two or three discussion threads at a time, we could get the thing done with pretty quickly. At that point, we can start playing games based on the new core rules ("Mornington Crescent Basic Rules"), and go back to our usual Nomic format to start producing Revisions. (For which a REFINE vote would be a great addition.) Thoughts? Of course, we should firstly decide how to go about revising. Should we go with Snow's suggestion to discard the whole thing, and propose items that need to be included? Or do the opposite - start with the current ruleset and propose changes and deletions? Or my idea, to simply go through the sections and rules one by one and vote on what to keep and what to remove? Again, thoughts? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Wed May 17 23:35:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4986 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 06:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 06:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 06:35:28 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id QAA10102; Thu, 18 May 2000 16:35:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma010071; Thu, 18 May 00 16:35:22 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 16:35:22 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: RE: Direction needed. Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:35:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Thursday, May 18, 2000 3:45 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > Well, looks quite good so far. I'm interested to see what you come up > with for the beginning Player's guide to the game itself. I should make a note of things that I've had to really work on to get them understandable. One thing I noted is that there's no actual description of what a Proposal looks like. From my limited time as a Thring Speaker I recall having a lot of problems with people having completely different ways of laying out a proposal; I guess it's probably the same for MN. This, and other things, is probably what we need to look at. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From dunx@d... Wed May 17 23:54:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25544 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 06:54:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 06:54:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.88) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 06:54:48 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk ([158.152.31.180] helo=daoloth) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12sKCl-000Fbg-0U for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 May 2000 07:54:47 +0100 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: RE: MN: RE: Direction needed. Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 07:47:09 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00051807522500.00534@daoloth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Thu, 18 May 2000, you wrote: > On Thursday, May 18, 2000 3:45 PM, riffraff@n... > [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > > Well, looks quite good so far. I'm interested to see what you come up > > with for the beginning Player's guide to the game itself. > > I should make a note of things that I've had to really work on to get them > understandable. One thing I noted is that there's no actual description of > what a Proposal looks like. From my limited time as a Thring Speaker I > recall having a lot of problems with people having completely different ways > of laying out a proposal; I guess it's probably the same for MN. This, and > other things, is probably what we need to look at. Still lurking really, but yes - the variation in Proposal layout was, in my Speaking time, sometimes very onerous indeed. I did try to get some rules into the ruleset asking proposers to format their Proposals to match the ruleset, but that was as far as it went. Also, some Players ignored them anyway (who have since resigned). More this evening, I hope. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig From riffraff@n... Thu May 18 00:16:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19863 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 07:16:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 07:16:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 07:16:58 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA20086 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 03:16:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:21:18 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Sample CAMREC Revision X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... This isn't an official Proposal of any sort, but I've gone through the ruleset from the CAMREC point-of-view expounded by PaulWay and myself, and produced a sample of what I think would be a good starting place for revision. (Assuming we decide to revise in such a way - only PW and myself have really expressed an opinion on the matter.) Also, don't be offended if I've marked one of your Rules for removal - it doesn't mean it's not a good rule, just that it doesn't fit the 'Real MC' theme. Likewise, there's a number of rules I personally don't like, that stay nevertheless for being thematically fitting. This only encompasses Section 1 of the rules, the rest being the Nomic Rules and alternate/variant Games. Section 1.0 - Mornington Crescent - Keep Section 1.1 - The Game - Keep Section 1.2 - The Game State Document - Keep Section 1.3 - Turn-Taking - Keep Section 1.4 - Tokens and Possessions 1.4.1 - Token Gesture - Keep 1.4.19 - Token Tracking - Keep 1.4.20 - Token Collection Table - Keep 1.4.18 - The Emporium Keep all text outside the chart. Remove all items in the chart apart from: All Day Rover Hat Knerdling Stick Money Belt Spanger Stub Zone Passes Food Items Magnifier Note that these all require more discussion to determine actual appropriateness and what revisions may be needed. In particular, I think the Hard Hat should be kept, simply because it's such an intuitive device in conjunction with Lines Under Construction. The other Hats are nice ruleswise - perhaps they could be Podumes instead? Notes on Food Items further down. 1.4.12 - The Luggage - Keep 1.4.22 - Discarding Possessions - Keep 1.4.9 - Hoard of the Things - Keep 1.4.23 - Unique Opportunity - Keep 1.4.6 - You Can Leave Your Hat On - Keep, pending discussion 1.4.7 - Suspect Packages - Remove 1.4.10 - This Token Has a Cash Value... - Keep 1.4.15 - You Got a Light Mac? - Remove, but discuss possibility of reviving the Nantucket as stand-alone. 1.4.16 - Playing With Food - Keep, pending discussion of more appropriate replacements. The Chocolate Bars are too damn handy, and the Marmalade Sandwich is very stylish. 1.4.24 - The Podume of Infinite Darkness - Keep 1.4.25 - Release the Pigeons! - Remove 1.4.28 - Day Tripper! - Keep 1.4.29 - Spanging Offense - Keep, pending discussion. Personally, I'd like to see items like the Spanger, the Drone Stick, the Hyde Mask, and the various Clamps changed from being Possessions to 'Player States', with a box similar to the 'Disruptions' box: "Spanging", "Drone Master", "In Spoon", "Narged", "Dr. Jekyll"/"Mr. Hyde", and so forth. 1.4.30 - The Emperor's New Clothes - Remove 1.4.31 - Size Matters - Keep, pending discussion 1.4.32 - Read All About It! - Remove 1.4.33 - Zzzzzzzzzzap! - Remove 1.4.34 - Pushing and Popping - Keep 1.4.35 - Not Hamsters - Remove 1.4.36 - Knerdling - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.37 - Death and Taxes - Keep 1.4.38 - The Velocity Bomb - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.39 - Open the Cutlery Drawer... - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.40 - The Narg Clamp Explained - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.41 - The Green Clamp - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.42 - The Freem Clamp Explained - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.43 - Vermicious Knids - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.44 - Consider Yourself Toffed - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.45 - Magno-Clamps - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.46 - Radiation - Remove, but needs discussion. It's really just a clamp-producing device, but IMO it crosses the line. 1.4.47 - Number Six - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.48 - Fosdyke's Magnifier - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.4.49 - Vizhke's Voracious Vacuum - Remove Section 1.5 - Moves - Keep Section 1.6 - Line Velocity - Keep Section 1.7 - Actions 1.7.1 - Action Types - Keep 1.7.2 - Actions - Keep, with chart altered to reflect remaining Actions. For the remainder of Section 1.7, keep all Rules except as noted: 1.7.20 - Busking - Remove 1.7.30 - You Have 10 Minutes... - Remove 1.7.30 - Jekyll and Hyde Park - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) 1.7.53 - Lost & Found - Keep, p.d. (discuss possibility of altering to only include remaining Possessions and Tokens) 1.7.54 - Cunningly Fashioned Out Of... - Remove 1.7.60 - Did You See That? - Remove Section 1.8 - States of Play - Keep Section 1.9 - Blocks, Impediments, and Gaps - Keep (discuss 1.9.2 - Escalator Fires) Section 1.10 - Actions That Target Other Players - Keep Section 1.11 - Special Stations - Keep, except: 1.11.2 - Three-Point Courier - Remove 1.11.3 - Station Damage - Keep, p.d. Section 1.12 - Home Stations - Keep Section 1.13 - Game Time - Keep Section 1.14 - Token Stacks - Keep Section 1.15 - The Drone - Keep, p.d. (ref. 1.4.29) Section 1.16 - Buzzing - Keep Section 1.17 - Glossary and Definitions - Keep Section 1.18 - Manoeuvers and Gambits - Keep Section 1.19 - Current and Charge - Keep Section 1.20 - Line States 1.20.0 - Line States - Keep 1.20.1 - Back To Normal - Keep 1.20.2 - And Where Might YOU Be Going? - Keep 1.20.3 - Opposites Attract, They Say - Keep, p.d. 1.20.4 - Not So Fast There! - Keep 1.20.5 - Power Failure! - Keep, p.d. 1.20.6 - Soap on the Tracks - Remove (discuss?) --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From kevan@s... Thu May 18 05:12:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10937 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 12:12:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 12:12:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 12:12:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 10628 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 12:12:57 -0000 Received: from n4.onelist.org (HELO hk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.43) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 May 2000 12:12:57 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.66] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2000 12:12:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:12:50 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: General Musings Message-ID: <8g0mo2+r885@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6483 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " Sorry I've been fairly quiet in this discussion; I've been rather busy lately, with my meagre free time going into the running of Genomic, and my brain being too sapped by deadening work stuff to be up to writing any terribly coherent paragraphs on anything. To summarise my thoughts on the future of the Nomic, though - well, firstly I don't feel there's any great need for it to be a Nomic any more. Some sort of semi-democratic voting system might be handy to have around for taking straw polls or making majority decisions on trifling issues, but this should only be a very, very small part of what we spend our time doing. As RiffRaff said, it's far better to discuss these things to the point of unanimity. This applies both to establishing a new-look ruleset and adding new stuff to it further down the line. I certainly see no need to wave the "Nomic" flag from our battlements when we've become far more of a game-design team, anyway; if people want the excitement of proper, political, cut-and-thrust Nomic, they're really better off going somewhere else, and it seems terribly self-destructive and annoying to have new players (hello, Brown) possibly turning up under the wrong premise, and potentially ideal people not turning up at all. As for the design process; I've a feeling that rebuilding from scratch might be saner than chipping bits away from an unwieldy ruleset. The crux of the whole thing is the nuts and bolts of gameplay, and I think they certainly have to be penned anew rather than chiselled down from bigger, clumsier paragraphs. Once we have a tiny ruleset that neatly defines a very, very basic version of the game (Baker Street, maybe, with just a bare minimum of Actions - we should, I hope, be able to get something like that on one page of A4), we can look at the extra stuff from the Mornomic Ruleset and implement it appropriately (in the same way we've looked at the Encyclopaedia Morningtonia and couched the ideas in Mornomic terms). My feeling on the look of the finished game is one of simplicity; that (viewing it from both real-life and email perspectives) you just need a Board, a Piece for each Player, some Tokens, an assortment of "local state" counters (Block, Maelberg, Sinkhole, etc), and a few sturdy bits of cardboard with "Knip", "Spoon Clamp" and whatnot written on them, to bring out when the relevant States and Possessions are in play. Simple enough for it to be playable with a few dead matches, a pocket-sized Tube map and a biro, but robust enough for a gold-plated mahogany- board edition to remain an enticing possibility. A simple Action sheet for each Player is all that's needed, although veterans would, of course, be able to remember most of them, which is rather pleasing. (To tangent, incidentally, the "Zarcana" game I mentioned earlier has a very neat notation for summarising how certain cards can be played - a handful of intuitive little symbols; an upright triangle if the card can only be played on an upright piece, a triangle on a rectangle if the card can only be played on a piece that rests on a card-in-play (both symbols if both apply), etc. I daresay the British Rail timetable symbols could be used to amusing effect, for most things, with pseudo- BR stuff for the other cases.) Admittedly at odds with RiffRaff, I'd like to see the fiddlier bits of the game cut out completely - Game Time really is far too much effort its minimal relevance, the Token system could do with simplification (the "claim one of a colour of your choice if you move to an Interchange" of MC:CG worked quite nicely), LV would probably be easier to deal with in real-life play if it was a "move between one and three Stations per turn, unless some State or Possession says otherwise" thing, and whatnot. We can argue this properly when the time comes to analyse the aspect, of course, and I look forward to doing so. To respond to a few comments here and there, anyway:- >[Paul] >At the moment play seems to be stalled because people don't have the >time to play. In this situation, the chances of someone actually having >enough time to sit down and rewrite vast quantities of ruleset are >slim at best. Surely no greater time than is needed to maintain the thing in a Nomic fashion, as Speaker, though? Particular since the editor's job is going to be, for the most part, merely editing other people's words together. Good work on the Guide, anyway. I think a cross between its chattiness and some sort of easily-referrable at-a-glance reference would make for an ideal replacement Ruleset, and I trust you'll be putting in sufficient input on the matter. >[Snow] >The plan I would suggest is: > >1) Everyone has a good old shouting match about what the game needs >and what it doesn't. Each person can contribute bits of ruleset >(including bits of the current ruleset). Rather pandemonious. Wouldn't it be better to address it bit by bit, with the editor overseeing the discussion, starting and ending topics as he sees fit? >2) Someone is made editor and goes off with all the bits of ruleset >and tries to tie them up. If there are gaps either e tries to fill >them eirself or makes a note for everyone to think about. I suspect that writing this bit-by-bit would be easier - first establish a turn-taking system, then a piece-placement-and-moving system, then basic Action implementation, and so forth, going back to fix anything that's later found wanting. >4) We then start up some form of fast-track Nomic system to edit the >ruleset. This would be useful once the basic ruleset was in place and we just needed to translate old Actions (and maybe add a few necessary new ones), Possessions, and whatnot. I suppose some sort of semi-formal voting system is all that's needed here, so that the editor can chuck out an ordered list of submissions and we can then discuss and veto them in an organised fashion, rather than having to track a load of different threads. >5) Once the ruleset is "stable" we modify the nomic system so that it >can only be changed with a large majority. This seems good, although - as has been said - such changes would ideally only be made very rarely, along the lines of IMCS's monthly amendments. (The sudden shifting-underfootness of games past was always a bit of a problem, wasn't it?) >6) We play Bravo. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "And will the world end in the night-time? I really don't know." From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Thu May 18 12:21:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12651 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 19:21:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 19:21:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 19:21:28 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id TAA13542 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 19:21:28 GMT Received: from auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com(192.168.109.16) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xmahh7994; Thu, 18 May 00 19:15:30 GMT Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com with ESMTP id RAA12355 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 17:21:20 GMT Subject: Re: MN: New Player - Brown To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:21:17 -0700 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SV-GW1/Seagate Internet(Release 5.0.2a (Intl)|23 November 1999) at 05/18/2000 10:21:20 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Greetings to you Brown, miKi From snowl@s... Thu May 18 13:06:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9584 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 20:06:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 20:06:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 20:06:17 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.250] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12sWYi-0006GO-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 May 2000 21:06:16 +0100 Message-ID: <003001bfc103$f87764a0$fa837ed4@snow> To: References: <8g0mo2+r885@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: General Musings Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:44:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I agree with everything Kevan said. Though I do think it is important to have a well defined plan and formal voting system in place if needed. If not then I think PaulWay's prophecy will happen of groups who feel that they aren't having their say leaving or splintering. The voting system needn't be used for everything only for things where there is a major split. I will also repeat something I said earlier. The 'politics' (voting, game lounges and such-like) should be kept separate from the game ruleset. They're not really connected (especially if we stop being a Nomic) and they will just confuse the beginner. Snow -I can turn myself into the theme tune to Buffy TVS using only my mind. From snowl@s... Thu May 18 13:06:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24276 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 20:06:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2000 20:06:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2000 20:06:18 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.250] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12sWYj-0006GO-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 18 May 2000 21:06:17 +0100 Message-ID: <003101bfc103$f9392e00$fa837ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Direction needed. Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:53:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" RiffRaff said: > Agreed in the sense that there won't be new proposals. But everyone should > agree on the changes made. It would obviously be preferable if everyone agrees, but I think we might have to settle for a majority in some situations. > True. We could fully take up the CAMREC mantle and call it Real Mornington > Crescent. Good idea. Snow -I can turn myself into money using only my mind. From gthoele@G... Thu May 18 22:52:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26049 invoked from network); 19 May 2000 05:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 May 2000 05:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.rzmi.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 May 2000 05:52:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 27120 invoked by uid 0); 19 May 2000 03:08:55 -0000 Received: from brun-3e36c9a1.pool.mediaways.net (62.54.201.161) by mail01.rzmi.gmx.net with SMTP; 19 May 2000 03:08:55 -0000 Received: by GMX.de; Date: 16 May 2000 17:37:00 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <7dy8J7fKTqB@g...> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: MN: The PaulWay Guide To Mornington Nomic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: UKA_PPP 1.7x1 X-eGroups-From: gthoele@G... (Gunnar Thoele) From: gthoele@G... Hallo Wayper,! Very fine. I could probably be interested in playing MN as a new player, and as there seems to be a bit of activity now... >still live in daub-and-wattle huts in the middle of Peru, the essence >of By the way, i live in the middle of nowhere, a 3500 people german rural village. -- Gunnar Thöle From riffraff@n... Fri May 19 17:22:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29053 invoked from network); 20 May 2000 00:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 May 2000 00:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 May 2000 00:22:13 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA03210 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 20:21:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:26:32 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: General Musings X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >I suspect that writing this bit-by-bit would be easier - first >establish >a turn-taking system, then a piece-placement-and-moving system, then >basic Action implementation, and so forth, going back to fix anything >that's later found wanting. All right, sounds fine, let's just get it underway, already! Feels like the People's Front of Judea from "Life of Brian" - "It's been brought to our attention that Brother Brian is in grave danger and we must act immediatly. Now, before we put this to a vote, we should further discuss and examine the issue at hand..." Gah! :) 'Nuff _talk_, let's DO it! Everybody sound off: A) Are we all in agreement that we should stick to a Pure MC theme? B) Does anyone completely disagree with the method suggested by Kevan, quoted above? If everybody posts their answers to these two questions, and we're in consensus, we can finally start writing some rules! --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From gthoele@G... Fri May 19 20:07:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26093 invoked from network); 20 May 2000 03:07:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 May 2000 03:07:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail06.rzmi.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 May 2000 03:07:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 32094 invoked by uid 0); 20 May 2000 03:07:05 -0000 Received: from brun-3e36c9b9.pool.mediaways.net (62.54.201.185) by mail06.rzmi.gmx.net with SMTP; 20 May 2000 03:07:05 -0000 Received: by GMX.de; Date: 19 May 2000 20:19:00 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: <7e9CMPxpTqB@g...> Subject: Even more new players... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: UKA_PPP 1.7x1 X-eGroups-From: gthoele@G... (Gunnar Thoele) From: gthoele@G... Hallo ! I just more or less decided to join Mornington Nomic (or whatever it is to be called now). And, as a very new player, i would want the ruleset to be trimmed... It is a very large document, indeed. -- Gunnar Thöle From palnatoke@g... Fri May 19 23:43:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1214 invoked from network); 20 May 2000 06:43:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 May 2000 06:43:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 May 2000 06:43:45 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p460-23.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.136.151]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e4K6gLD00736 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 08:42:21 +0200 Message-ID: <014a01bfc226$90a8f180$53852fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: General Musings Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 07:28:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Riff asked: :=20 : A) Are we all in agreement that we should stick to a Pure MC theme? No. But if we keep a copy of the bells-and-whistles, one could always = propose such things in an Option. So I guess this effectively is yes, after all. : B) Does anyone completely disagree with the method suggested by Kevan, : quoted above? Well, I don't disagree, so the answer might be no. Ole From riffraff@n... Wed May 24 20:36:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20199 invoked from network); 25 May 2000 03:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 May 2000 03:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 May 2000 03:36:51 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA22837 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 23:36:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:41:12 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: General Musings X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... Hello? ...Hello? Bueller? Man, I try and inspire everyone to action, and the exact opposite happens! I feel like that guy in that one episode of "The Twilight Zone"*. "Where is everybody? Where is everybody!?" --Riff (*You know the one - the one where it turns out that reality isn't what you think it is? That's my favorite.) "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Wed May 24 20:46:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30096 invoked from network); 25 May 2000 03:46:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 May 2000 03:46:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.245) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 May 2000 03:46:49 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24208 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 23:46:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:51:10 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: General Musings X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Riff asked: >: >: A) Are we all in agreement that we should stick to a Pure MC theme? > >No. But if we keep a copy of the bells-and-whistles, one could always >>propose such things in an Option. >So I guess this effectively is yes, after all. I'm sure we'd still have the original on hand, so we could always do a non-CAMREC alternate, sure. It could be called "Tunnels and Tubetrains". :) >: B) Does anyone completely disagree with the method suggested by Kevan, >: quoted above? > >Well, I don't disagree, so the answer might be no. Good enough. I just want for us to settle on a plan, so we can get started! Sorry if I'm all hyper about this, everyone, but I want to get this going before my unstable attention span gets derailed again. :) (Hello to Gunnar, by the way. Amazing how international we've become...) --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Wed May 24 21:08:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30860 invoked from network); 25 May 2000 04:08:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 May 2000 04:08:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 May 2000 04:08:28 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA14085; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:08:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma014008; Thu, 25 May 00 14:08:09 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:08:09 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: General Musings Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:08:07 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Thursday, May 25, 2000 2:41 PM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > Man, I try and inspire everyone to action, and the exact opposite happens! You've caught me at a busy time. I'm trying to wrap several projects up at work. But, more importantly, I'm trying to find a new job in Melbourne so I can live with my new love. Surreptitiously so as to not make things more difficult for my job here. I haven't even had a chance to dig out the HHGTMN again... Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Fri May 26 01:15:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19348 invoked from network); 26 May 2000 08:15:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 May 2000 08:15:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qg.egroups.com) (10.1.2.27) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 May 2000 08:15:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 16368 invoked from network); 26 May 2000 08:15:06 -0000 Received: from n2.onelist.org (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 26 May 2000 08:15:06 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.107] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 May 2000 08:15:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:14:58 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: General Musings Message-ID: <8glbq2+7a68@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 721 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > > Man, I try and inspire everyone to action, and the exact opposite happens! > > You've caught me at a busy time. Me too, really. The slivers of spare time I find in my life tend to get snapped up quickly by Genomic, or feeling guilty about not running Genomic well enough. And I barely have any time at a computer outside of work anyway, really, particularly with the weather picking up. Pft. > But, more importantly, I'm trying to find a new job in Melbourne so I > can live with my new love. Tsk, I really have far too little idea of what my friends are doing these days. Bravo there. Hope it's going well. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Busy scissors, oh, oh..." From riffraff@n... Sun May 28 13:04:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31658 invoked from network); 28 May 2000 20:03:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 May 2000 20:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.252) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 May 2000 20:03:50 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27195 for ; Sun, 28 May 2000 16:03:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:08:12 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: General Musings X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> > Man, I try and inspire everyone to action, and the exact opposite >happens! >> >> You've caught me at a busy time. (Oddly, I never got this message...) > >Me too, really. The slivers of spare time I find in my life tend to >get snapped up quickly by Genomic, or feeling guilty about not >running Genomic well enough. And I barely have any time at a computer >outside of work anyway, really, particularly with the weather picking >up. Pft. Ah, well, that's understandable. Since I have a lot of free time, I'll see if I can come up with some basic ruleset plans on my own for general approval, save us some time... >> But, more importantly, I'm trying to find a new job in Melbourne so >>I can live with my new love. Well, congratulations, and good luck! :) --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Fri Jun 02 09:16:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26210 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 16:15:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Jun 2000 16:15:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 16:15:44 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.198] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12xu6o-000BH7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:15:43 +0100 Message-ID: <002401bfccad$27806e40$c68d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: General Musings Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:39:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" RiffRaff wrote: > >> > Man, I try and inspire everyone to action, and the exact opposite > >happens! > >> > >> You've caught me at a busy time. > My monitor died, but I've got a nice shiny new one now. If we are all agreed to start a new Ruleset (or prepared to go along with it for the time being) then we can start the discussions. The old ruleset will still be there if everything goes Pete Tong. > > > >Me too, really. The slivers of spare time I find in my life tend to > >get snapped up quickly by Genomic, or feeling guilty about not > >running Genomic well enough. And I barely have any time at a computer > >outside of work anyway, really, particularly with the weather picking > >up. Pft. > > Ah, well, that's understandable. Since I have a lot of free time, I'll see > if I can come up with some basic ruleset plans on my own for general > approval, save us some time... Excellent, when will they be ready? Do you want to be editor/scribe? Snow -Looking at the world through a 19" hole. From snowl@s... Fri Jun 02 09:16:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26262 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 16:15:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Jun 2000 16:15:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 16:15:45 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.198] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12xu6p-000BH7-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:15:44 +0100 Message-ID: <002501bfccad$2849d8c0$c68d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: Subject: Moving Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:08:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Moving seems like a sufficiently fundamental place to start. A number of ways of working it spring to mind: 1) The Mornomic way: The LV can be changed by a small amount each turn. A player can move a distance equivalent to eir LV. 2) Turn at a time: Each player can move at most X stations in one turn. 3) Time limiting: Moving 1 station takes 10mins. The further e moves the less time e has available for shunting, blocking... With the last 2 no record of the current LV need be made. The first may encourage more long-term planning. Other thing to bare in mind are: changing lines, moving for other reasons (shunting, straddling...), how many times per turn a player can move (possibly more than 1) and whether the route taken need be noted. I think moves should be made actions to standardize the notation. Snow -Running my monitor at 1920x1440 simply because I can. From riffraff@n... Fri Jun 02 14:04:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29969 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 21:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Jun 2000 21:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.252) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 21:04:18 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA24127 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:03:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:08:40 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: General Musings X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> >> Ah, well, that's understandable. Since I have a lot of free time, >I'll see >> if I can come up with some basic ruleset plans on my own for general >> approval, save us some time... > >Excellent, when will they be ready? I'll try and get something concrete done this weekend, and post it late sunday or after work monday. >Do you want to be editor/scribe? What would that entail, exactly? Just keep a running file of agreed-upon changes and so forth? Sure, I can do that, if no-one else wants the honor. :) cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Fri Jun 02 15:32:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20353 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 22:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Jun 2000 22:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.252) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 22:32:15 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04846 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:31:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:36:38 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Subject: Moving X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Moving seems like a sufficiently fundamental place to start. > >A number of ways of working it spring to mind: > >1) The Mornomic way: The LV can be changed by a small amount each >turn. A player can move a distance equivalent to eir LV. > >2) Turn at a time: Each player can move at most X stations in one >turn. > >3) Time limiting: Moving 1 station takes 10mins. The further e moves >the less time e has available for shunting, blocking... > >With the last 2 no record of the current LV need be made. The first >may encourage more long-term planning. I dislike 2) because it reduces the opportunity for strategy. Moving at maximum speed should carry some sort of balancing penalty (and, conversely, there should probably be a reward for moving slowly). The original method got around this by forcing you to gain speed gradually, so you couldn't instantly start zooming around the board, and likewise you had to plan a gradual slow-down if you wanted to land at a specific station. 3) is nice, although given a 1 hour turn, 10 mins = 1 station would be very limiting. 2 or 3 minutes would probably be better, allowing for an average move of 3 - 5 Stations. Or, for simplicity, you could say 1-4 Stations = 10 mins, 5-8 Stations = 20 mins, 9 or 10 Stations = 30 mins. Thus you'd have to sacrifice half your turn for really speedy movement. (Parenthetical aside concerning time: in response to Kevan's earlier comment about Game Time being too much work for no benefit, I think it's valuable for two reasons: firstly, it provides for Stations with restricted hours, which I think is pretty nifty. After all, the symbols are right there on the map - why not take advantage of them? Secondly, Game Time provides a tidy and stylish way to limit the number of Actions you can take in a turn... without them, we'd be forced to use 'Action Points' or something. Urgh.) I like LV though, simply because (and I expect some of you disagree) I _like_ having several strange numbers to keep track of. And I think it fits in with the whole MC genre - having to pull out charts and graphs to calculate Beck's Coefficient, and all that. Perhaps LV could be combined with 3) in some way. How about: you start with LV = 1, and can add or subtract 1 (or possibly 2) per turn, to a maximum of 5. By subtracting your LV from 6, you get the time it takes to move 1 Station, BUT, you must move at least as many Stations as your LV. So, with LV 1, each Station takes 5 minutes; LV 3, each Station takes 3 minutes (half your turn to move 10), but you have to move at least 3; LV 5, you can move 10 Stations in only 10 minutes, but you can't move less than 5 Stations. Hmmm. I like it! Complicated on the surface, but it wouldn't take much at all to get used to it, and there isn't any more to keep track of than in the original version. And it seems nicely balanced - someone who pushes their LV up to 5 in order to zoom across the board would have to do some tricky skidding-about and maneuvering to land at exactly the Station they want, whereas someone travelling slowly could stop easily whereever they please. And what makes the improvement over the original version is that you _can_ move 10 Stations with a LV of only 1, provided you're willing to sacrifice almost all of your Turn. > >Other thing to bare in mind are: changing lines, moving for other >reasons (shunting, straddling...), how many times per turn a player >can move (possibly more than 1) and whether the route taken need be >noted. I think that for the most part these can be kept the same. One Move per turn, Actions that move you cost extra time and Tokens, route need only be noted when it would make a difference. Changing lines should, perhaps, cost a little extra time - say, 2 mins. Plus the Black Token. With maybe an option to take a full 10 minutes to change lines and forgo the cost. > >I think moves should be made actions to standardize the notation. Hokay - wouldn't really change anything. [Moving to {via }] Time: variable Cost: 0 (Can only be played once per Turn) plus a notation of which Action can only be played before (or after) a Move Action. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Sat Jun 03 15:32:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29634 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2000 22:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jun 2000 22:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jun 2000 22:32:55 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.104] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12yMTM-000DAZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:32:53 +0100 Message-ID: <001601bfcdab$ab49b7a0$68877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Subject: Moving Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:27:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" RiffRaff: > Moving at > maximum speed should carry some sort of balancing penalty Agreed. > The original method > got around this by forcing you to gain speed gradually, so you couldn't > instantly start zooming around the board, and likewise you had to plan a > gradual slow-down if you wanted to land at a specific station. I would disagree. The original method didn't require slowing down to land at a specific station, one could just take a longer route. This is the main problem with it. > 3) is nice, although given a 1 hour turn, 10 mins = 1 station would be very > limiting. 2 or 3 minutes would probably be better, allowing for an average > move of 3 - 5 Stations. Or, for simplicity, you could say 1-4 Stations = > 10 mins, 5-8 Stations = 20 mins, 9 or 10 Stations = 30 mins. Thus you'd > have to sacrifice half your turn for really speedy movement. It's 30 stations from Edgeware to Morden (the more northerly and southerly stations on the Northern line) should we really be able to do this in 3 turns. I would cap LV at 6 as a more suitable speed for moving around. And even at this speed there should be a heavy time/token penalty. > (Parenthetical aside concerning time: in response to Kevan's earlier > comment about Game Time being too much work for no benefit, I think it's > valuable for two reasons: firstly, it provides for Stations with restricted > hours, which I think is pretty nifty. After all, the symbols are right > there on the map - why not take advantage of them? Secondly, Game Time > provides a tidy and stylish way to limit the number of Actions you can take > in a turn... without them, we'd be forced to use 'Action Points' or > something. Urgh.) I would keep the hour limit on a turn, but I can't see the point in keeping Game Time generally. > > I like LV though, simply because (and I expect some of you disagree) I > _like_ having several strange numbers to keep track of. And I think it > fits in with the whole MC genre - having to pull out charts and graphs to > calculate Beck's Coefficient, and all that. I don't mind having numbers to keep track of provided the effort is rewarded. Charge takes a lot of effort to track and has nearly no effect. Game time is fairly easy to track, but still doesn't do much (except for limiting a Turn to an hour). LV is trivial to use and has a large effect. We should bare in mind that part of this exercise is to make the game more accessable to newbies (and oldies). > One Move per > turn, Actions that move you cost extra time and Tokens, route need only be > noted when it would make a difference. Changing lines should, perhaps, > cost a little extra time - say, 2 mins. Plus the Black Token. With maybe > an option to take a full 10 minutes to change lines and forgo the cost. I don't think we should use units of time less than 5mins. I think 10mins+black would be good for changing line. OK, one move per normal turn. I was thinking about having different types of move Actions. This is more or less what we have now stated more consistently. Normal: [Move to {via route}] (Once per turn) Pass: [Pass] (Replaces normal move). Straddle: [Straddle to ] (Only allowed after normal moves). Special Move to Loop station: [Loop Move to Dollis Hill] (Only allowed in Dollis Hill loops, replaces normal move.) ...etc Snow -I no longer need to spend 10mins adjusting the brightness and contrast to see Lara Croft. From snowl@s... Sat Jun 03 15:33:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14026 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2000 22:33:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jun 2000 22:33:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Jun 2000 22:33:04 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.104] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12yMTU-000DAZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:33:01 +0100 Message-ID: <001701bfcdab$b029e2e0$68877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: General Musings Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:31:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > >Do you want to be editor/scribe? > > What would that entail, exactly? Just keep a running file of agreed-upon > changes and so forth? Sure, I can do that, if no-one else wants the honor. > :) Putting together the various bits of ruleset the players write and filling in the gaps. I don't think there is a need for only one person to do it, as long as only one person at a time is doing it. I'm happy to have a go if you don't want to/get bored of it. There is the files space at eGroups/OneList we can use to share editing between whoever is interested. Snow -I spend at least 3hrs per day trying to get the image on my monitor rectangular. From WayperP@p... Sun Jun 04 16:16:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28978 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 23:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2000 23:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 23:16:19 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA11039; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:16:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma010770; Mon, 5 Jun 00 09:15:48 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:15:48 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Subject: Moving Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:15:41 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Saturday, June 03, 2000 2:09 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > 1) The Mornomic way: The LV can be changed by a small amount each > turn. A player can move a distance equivalent to eir LV. Seems to be similar to the way MC is played online as well. > 2) Turn at a time: Each player can move at most X stations in one > turn. Shunting would be a big problem. Not only because you have much more range all the time, but also because you're open to countershunting (unless you put in some silly rule like "the shuntee cannot shunt the shunter next go" - which I prefer to be a consequence of having both your LVs reduced to zero rather than explicitly state it.) > 3) Time limiting: Moving 1 station takes 10mins. The further e moves > the less time e has available for shunting, blocking... I tried putting in a proposal for similar to this a while back - basically moving ten stations would take sixty minutes, but it was tiered (1-3:10m 4-5:20m 6-7:30m 8-9:40m 10:50m). In addition to this there was a 'surcharge' on each line change; so moving on one line took less time than moving the same distance across multiple lines. It got shot down in flames. I think the attitude was "we don't want anything less than the best", which in my opinion is a fairly boneheaded way to approach a Nomic (if nothing else). > Other thing to bare in mind are: changing lines, moving for other > reasons (shunting, straddling...), how many times per turn a player > can move (possibly more than 1) and whether the route taken need be > noted. I don't want to build in any limitations explicitly; I prefer to give people an arbitrary amount (e.g. LV=10, 60 minutes) and have them choose from there. > I think moves should be made actions to standardize the notation. I disagree. I think it looks fine. It also makes the person's current location very easy to find in the GSD. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Sun Jun 04 16:21:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7936 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 23:21:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2000 23:21:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 23:21:12 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id JAA14772; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:21:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmab14465; Mon, 5 Jun 00 09:20:50 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:20:50 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: Re: General Musings Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:20:47 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:32 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > -I spend at least 3hrs per day trying to get the image on my monitor > rectangular. You'll find they change geometry as they warm up. Some day I will have so much money I will have a 21 or 23 inch monitor and be able to run at 2048x1576, which would allow me to have nice techy fonts for the title bars and still have them relatively clear. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Tue Jun 06 05:51:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15796 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2000 12:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Jun 2000 12:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2000 12:49:27 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.125] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2000 12:49:23 -0000 Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:48:31 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Subject: Moving Message-ID: <8hiruv+fd7k@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2665 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > > 2) Turn at a time: Each player can move at most X stations in one > > turn. > > Shunting would be a big problem. Not only because you have much more range > all the time, but also because you're open to countershunting (unless you > put in some silly rule like "the shuntee cannot shunt the shunter next go" - > which I prefer to be a consequence of having both your LVs reduced to zero > rather than explicitly state it.) MC:CG had a fairly neat approach to the whole business, which I was quite pleased with for its elegance - basically, you could move up to three Stations per Move. That was it. There were certain ways you could increase the maximum (Game States to up everyone's, Possessions to raise your own), or decrease it (States for everyone, Clamp Possessions for specific victims), and "maximum Move distance" was vaguely referred to as "LV". Dead easy to keep track of, and it worked perfectly well strategy-wise. As for Shunting - you're thinking in MN terms, Paul. The easy solution is simply to say that Shunts move the victim four Stations along a Line. (And eight for a Power Shunt, or whatever.) I like this, myself, because it makes real-life play very easy - you don't need to keep track of LV at all, it's just always three, unless certain things are in play (such things giving it enough diversity to add strategy). Having to keep tabs on ever-changing variables is quite fiddly - anything short of twiddly brass dials would, I think, be cumbersome and ugly. As for the timing thing - I find this just too fearsome, and I'd be happy to see this aspect of the game being killed off entirely. The "no more than an hour's worth of Actions" is fairly awkward to keep track of, particularly in real-time play ("Right - LV increase, Move, Drop Token, Straddle, Shunt, Collect Token. Your go. Unless anyone's buzzing.") - this would be much, much easier as (again, cribbing MC:CG) "one Action before your Turn, one after". Although that does limit cunning stratagems a bit, I suppose. Maybe two either side. And the "big" Actions having a "This can only be played if it's the only Action of your Turn" thing. > > I think moves should be made actions to standardize the notation. > > I disagree. I think it looks fine. It also makes the person's current > location very easy to find in the GSD. Me too. It's important to be able to pluck out the crux of someone's Turn, and as is clear from listening to games on the radio, the Move is always the most important thing. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "There's more to life than books, you know, but not much more." From WayperP@p... Tue Jun 06 21:52:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26547 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 04:30:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m7.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Jun 2000 04:30:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2000 04:30:46 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA22398; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:30:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma022309; Wed, 7 Jun 00 14:30:25 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:30:25 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: MN vs MC - an issue of complexity (was: Moving) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:30:24 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Wayper, Paul" On Tuesday, June 06, 2000 10:49 PM, Kevan [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > MC:CG had a fairly neat approach to the whole business, which I was > quite pleased with for its elegance - basically, you could move up to > three Stations per Move. That was it. There were certain ways you > could increase the maximum (Game States to up everyone's, Possessions > to raise your own), or decrease it (States for everyone, Clamp > Possessions for specific victims), and "maximum Move distance" was > vaguely referred to as "LV". Dead easy to keep track of, and it > worked perfectly well strategy-wise. OK, I've worked out what I think the fundamental problem in the "playing a move" paradigm is. Let's look at the three non-MN genres in which MC is played: 1) ISIHAC. This is the original game, the reference if you like. This is the game that has the fearsomely complex ruleset, the terse game play, the surprise and simplicity and driving logic of chess with the complex strategy and intricacy and subtlety that go with it. 2) MC:CG. This game has to have simple gameplay, because there's only a certain amount of state you can store either in your head or on whatever portable state-storing systems you have (e.g. dice for hit points, counters, etc). 3) MCiOS, !York, PantsMC, Orange, whatever. This is where we get our fearsome complexity of move from. "Backshunting Raak and performing a Triple Inverse Stoat on the Central Line with Bethnal Green, lowering helical stress by 2.8 Brians and introducing a plaid token rain on all even cross-hatched stations." I need say no more. >From the "simplicity of ruleset" point of view, 1 comes between 2 and 3. My justification for this is that we have to explain our moves! In 2, they're self-evident. In 1, they're implied, but the players are assumed to be up to handling it all, and therefore they're not so difficult that they need be noted down. In 3, there's the implication that the players, who are not assumed to be so below ISIHAC standards that they need reminders, still need to either point out or remember what's going on. Now, MN derives its structure principally from 3. There are bits tagged on, like clamps, to explain things that are sort of implicit in 3 but need a common structure or methodology to be played sensibly. However, the current feeling of the list seems to be that we should be heading towards 2. 2 is good for new players - it's almost what it's designed for. However, with the baroque ruleset we have at the moment, scrapping it would be the best way. But I, for one, don't think that's what MN should be about. Because I don't think a simplified ruleset will offer anything more than a half-hour's entertainment - for the same reason that no-one really considers Baker Street to be a complex game. The beauty of what we have is provided in the underlying structures - the hour's worth of time to divide between actions and moving is a good example. It's a structure, moreover, which can accommodate a large amount of new stuff without needing a heck of revision. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the card game. I promise I'll look at it someday (when my life is sorted out and I'm living in Melbourne). I'm all for having a quick, playable game of MC that still makes you think. But equating that with MN is like trying to say a propellor is equivalent to a hypersonic ramjet engine. _THAT_ to me is the issue we need to pursue here. If everyone's all for the simplicity of a card game, then let's all go to the card game forum and abandon MN. But in my view butchering it to produce a simple game is like running CP/M on a Pentium III. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Tue Jun 06 21:54:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2571 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 04:33:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.10.39 with QMQP; 7 Jun 2000 04:33:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2000 04:33:56 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA23741; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:33:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma023677; Wed, 7 Jun 00 14:33:46 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:33:46 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:33:43 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" My thoughts on the grand issue you can read in another email. For now: On Tuesday, June 06, 2000 10:49 PM, Kevan [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > As for Shunting - you're thinking in MN terms, Paul. The easy > solution is simply to say that Shunts move the victim four Stations > along a Line. (And eight for a Power Shunt, or whatever.) OK, you've got me there. Good point. > I like this, myself, because it makes real-life play very easy - you > don't need to keep track of LV at all, it's just always three, unless > certain things are in play (such things giving it enough diversity to > add strategy). Having to keep tabs on ever-changing variables is > quite fiddly - anything short of twiddly brass dials would, I think, > be cumbersome and ugly. Well, if we're doing that, why have tokens? > As for the timing thing - I find this just too fearsome, and I'd be > happy to see this aspect of the game being killed off entirely. The > "no more than an hour's worth of Actions" is fairly awkward to keep > track of, particularly in real-time play ("Right - LV increase, Move, > Drop Token, Straddle, Shunt, Collect Token. Your go. Unless anyone's > buzzing.") - this would be much, much easier as (again, cribbing > MC:CG) "one Action before your Turn, one after". Although that does > limit cunning stratagems a bit, I suppose. Maybe two either side. And > the "big" Actions having a "This can only be played if it's the only > Action of your Turn" thing. Yep; if we're going for real-time face-to-face play we should dispense with time altogether. But see my other email for why I may be taking the attitude I do here. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Mon Jun 12 16:27:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7144 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2000 23:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 Jun 2000 23:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.252) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 Jun 2000 23:27:09 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14452 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:26:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:31:35 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: General Musings X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> >Do you want to be editor/scribe? >> >> What would that entail, exactly? Just keep a running file of >agreed-upon >> changes and so forth? Sure, I can do that, if no-one else wants the >honor. >> :) > >Putting together the various bits of ruleset the players write and >filling in the gaps. I don't think there is a need for only one person >to do it, as long as only one person at a time is doing it. I'm happy >to have a go if you don't want to/get bored of it. Sounds like no problem, I'll be happy to take charge of it until, as you say, I get bored. :) Sorry to be slow in responding, especially after all my harping about the list being so quiet... I managed to break my foot last week, took a bit to get back up to speed, so to speak... :/ cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Mon Jun 12 16:53:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24496 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2000 23:52:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 Jun 2000 23:52:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blizzard.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.252) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 Jun 2000 23:52:19 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by blizzard.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14977 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:51:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:56:44 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >I like this, myself, because it makes real-life play very easy - you >don't need to keep track of LV at all, it's just always three, unless >certain things are in play (such things giving it enough diversity to >add strategy). Having to keep tabs on ever-changing variables is >quite fiddly - anything short of twiddly brass dials would, I think, >be cumbersome and ugly. I tend to feel that only three stations per move would become annoyingly slow - especially out on the outer edges of the board where you get 9 or 10 stations together in a row with no interchanges. 5 would be preferable. I like 5. And, there's any number of ways that LV could easily and stylishly kept track of - a series of small cards nicely printed with the numbers, your current LV on top of the stack, for example. Or a die numbered 0-5, with your current LV on the top face. Or just a row of numbered squares, with a glass bead or something to mark the current value. No problem. > >As for the timing thing - I find this just too fearsome, and I'd be >happy to see this aspect of the game being killed off entirely. The >"no more than an hour's worth of Actions" is fairly awkward to keep >track of, particularly in real-time play ("Right - LV increase, Move, >Drop Token, Straddle, Shunt, Collect Token. Your go. Unless anyone's >buzzing.") - this would be much, much easier as (again, cribbing >MC:CG) "one Action before your Turn, one after". Although that does >limit cunning stratagems a bit, I suppose. Maybe two either side. And >the "big" Actions having a "This can only be played if it's the only >Action of your Turn" thing. Good point, I'd forgotten about real-time play. Perhaps it would be best to simply have a number of available actions per turn. I prefer 2 before and 2 after - at least. 1 and 1 would definately impair clever strategy. Perhaps 2 before and 2 after, with an option to take extra actions at extra cost? 'Off-Peak Hours' could be implemented as a Game State activated by a certain action... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Tue Jun 13 11:14:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21456 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2000 18:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 13 Jun 2000 18:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 13 Jun 2000 18:14:00 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.247] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 131v5t-000PSf-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:07:23 +0100 Message-ID: <004101bfd562$2e5cacc0$f78d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:05:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" RiffRaff said: > I tend to feel that only three stations per move would become annoyingly > slow - especially out on the outer edges of the board where you get 9 or 10 > stations together in a row with no interchanges. 5 would be preferable. I > like 5. I'm happy with 5. > >As for the timing thing - I find this just too fearsome, and I'd be > >happy to see this aspect of the game being killed off entirely. The > >"no more than an hour's worth of Actions" is fairly awkward to keep > >track of, particularly in real-time play > > Good point, I'd forgotten about real-time play. Perhaps it would be best > to simply have a number of available actions per turn. I prefer 2 before > and 2 after - at least. 1 and 1 would definately impair clever strategy. > Perhaps 2 before and 2 after, with an option to take extra actions at extra > cost? Maybe I'm being too reductionist here, but... Dump game time, LV, limits on number of actions before/after move, changing line..... and replace them all with black tokens. It costs 1 black token to move one station, 1 black token to change line and 2 black tokens to play an action (in addition to the action's cost). This is just an amalgamation the Action Point system Riff referred to with the "time for LV" PaulWay and I were talking about. But allows more long term stratergising by stock-piling blacks. We would have to make black tokens far more easy to come by, probably by giving players, say, 10 blacks before each turn. -- Annatov Snow I can turn myself into the script to episode 3 from Buffy TVS using only my mind. From riffraff@n... Sat Jun 17 23:43:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12540 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 06:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jun 2000 06:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Jun 2000 06:43:23 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA03430 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:43:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:47:50 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Maybe I'm being too reductionist here, but... > >Dump game time, LV, limits on number of actions before/after move, >changing line..... and replace them all with black tokens. It costs 1 >black token to move one station, 1 black token to change line and 2 >black tokens to play an action (in addition to the action's cost). That would take a huge amount of black tokens, and simply handing them out seems too artificial. How about this: Movement: up to 5 Stations per turn, with a charge of 1 Black Token for each additional Station over 5. [5 free Stations seems necessary to me to promote play on the entire board. Consider how long it would take to get to Morden and back, even with free movement... without it, it becomes essentially impossible... play would never get out of the Circle line.] Line Changes: Can change Line at the beginning or end of the Move for free, changes during the Move cost 1 Black per change. Actions: 2 Actions per Turn (1 pre-move, 1 post-move - either one can be played as a neutral), additional Actions cost 1 Green Token each. [Green instead of Black because Blacks are movement-oriented tokens, and Green are for generic purposes.] This would require only a few more Blacks than usual... say, gain 1 Black token for every 2 Intersections passed, or something like that. Also, the Recycling necessary for Green Tokens would need to be changed, since using an Action to do it would be silly, and there's no Game Time. My suggestion would be to allow free Recycling of plastic tokens for Green tokens (1 for 1) at a few centrally-located Stations - say, Tower Hill, King's X, Paddington, and Victoria. (Or maybe at any Park/Plant/Green Station - that might be more intuitive, although on the other hand there's a whole lot of them. I was originally thinking just Green Stations, but there aren't _enough_ of those. Perhaps just Parks and Greens? Is Limehouse a Green Station?) Another question about movement: what about Escalators? Personally, I'm thinking they should allow you to change line for free, but would still count as an additional Station for movement. Pity they're all in one place like that... cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Sun Jun 18 06:06:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2614 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 13:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jun 2000 13:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Jun 2000 13:06:01 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.7] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 133elz-000AG3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:06:00 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01bfd925$e20ec7a0$078d7ed4@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:44:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff wrote: > >Maybe I'm being too reductionist here, but... > > > >Dump game time, LV, limits on number of actions before/after move, > >changing line..... and replace them all with black tokens. It costs 1 > >black token to move one station, 1 black token to change line and 2 > >black tokens to play an action (in addition to the action's cost). > > That would take a huge amount of black tokens, and simply handing them out > seems too artificial. OK, every time you enter a new zone you get black tokens eqivalent to the zone number, the further you go from the centre the more blacks you get, so you can afford to move. It also forces players to leave zone 1 if they want to move. Maybe a free move of 2 or 3 stations would be necessary. > How about this: > > Movement: up to 5 Stations per turn, with a charge of 1 Black Token for > each additional Station over 5. [5 free Stations seems necessary to me to > promote play on the entire board. Consider how long it would take to get > to Morden and back, even with free movement... without it, it becomes > essentially impossible... play would never get out of the Circle line.] The trouble is that if the value is too low then you can't usefully move outside zone 1, but if it's too high then you can traverse z1 in 1 or 2 moves. I feel that 5 is too high for inside z1, but a minimum for outside. > Line Changes: Can change Line at the beginning or end of the Move for free, > changes during the Move cost 1 Black per change. OK > Actions: 2 Actions per Turn (1 pre-move, 1 post-move - either one can be > played as a neutral), additional Actions cost 1 Green Token each. [Green > instead of Black because Blacks are movement-oriented tokens, and Green are > for generic purposes.] I'm not sure that we need so many Token colours, but that is a discussion for another time. Suffice to say extra Actions cost extra Tokens. > > Another question about movement: what about Escalators? Personally, I'm > thinking they should allow you to change line for free, but would still > count as an additional Station for movement. Pity they're all in one place > like that... Fine by me. -- Annatov Snow I can turn myself into the script from episode 11 of Buffy TVS using only my mind. From martin@m... Sun Jun 18 13:06:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2112 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 20:06:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jun 2000 20:06:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mashie.force9.net) (195.166.128.30) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jun 2000 20:05:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 10773 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 20:14:07 -0000 Received: from ruin.servers.plus.net.uk (212.159.2.66) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Jun 2000 20:14:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 21445 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2000 20:07:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO martin-s--puter) (195.166.141.226) by ruin.servers.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Jun 2000 20:07:45 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000618205702.0096bb40@m...> X-Sender: msewell@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:05:09 +0100 To: con_cres@egroups.com,l-nomic-d@egroups.com,mc-cg@egroups.com, mcd-l@egroups.com,uwmc@egroups.com Subject: Mornington Crescent Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Martin Sewell The IMCS are pleased to announce their new Website: http://morningtoncrescent.org/ -- =B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0` Martin= Sewell`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8 martin@m... | M.Sewell@c... http://martinsewell.com | http://morningtoncrescent.org http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/M.Sewell SMS: mob@m... | PGP Key ID:0x8079E378 ICQ# 29857597 | Gooey: Martin/198 | AIM: martin040 WAP: http://www.msewell.f9.co.uk/wap.wml From riffraff@n... Sun Jun 18 21:25:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14991 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 04:25:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 04:25:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 04:25:08 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA21951 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:24:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:29:36 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> Movement: up to 5 Stations per turn, with a charge of 1 Black Token >>for each additional Station over 5. [5 free Stations seems necessary to >>me to promote play on the entire board. Consider how long it would take >>to get to Morden and back, even with free movement... without it, it >>becomes essentially impossible... play would never get out of the Circle >>line.] > >The trouble is that if the value is too low then you can't usefully >move outside zone 1, but if it's too high then you can traverse z1 in >1 or 2 moves. I feel that 5 is too high for inside z1, but a minimum >for outside. It kind of comes down to the difference between playing a real boardgame, and playing in e-mail. In RL, it's fine (even preferential) to not be able to do much in one turn, because it makes the turns short and play passes quickly around the table without a problem. In an e-mail game, however, you want to be able to do more in one turn, because of the time it takes to get around to your turn again. With a couple days between players, a game takes incredibly long if you can only move a couple stations in one go. While it's important that we keep RL play in mind so that we end up with a good game in that format, it seems to me that we're probably going to be doing most of our actual playing via e-mail. >OK, every time you enter a new zone you get black tokens eqivalent to >the zone number, the further you go from the centre the more blacks >you get, so you can afford to move. It also forces players to leave >zone 1 if they want to move. Maybe a free move of 2 or 3 stations >would be necessary. That's pretty good... The problem with my idea (1 black per 2 interchanges) was that there aren't many interchanges in the outer Zones where those tokens become necessary. The only problem I see with this is with Players spending multiple turns simply oscillating between Zones 4 and 5 to build up a massive supply of Tokens. Perhaps the necessity of forefeiting several turns to do that would balance it out. Well, why don't we say 3 free Stations, 1 Black per additional, and +X Black Tokens upon entering Zone X... and we can iron out any problems of slowness or token hoarding in playtesting before we write the Basic Ruleset in stone. (Although my initial prediction is we'll want to change to 5 free Stations for an e-mail game, and 3 for a RL game.) Sound good? Does anyone else have any comments or opposition? I'm assuming you're all reading the posts even if you're not posting yourselves, and that your silence means you have no objections to what Snow and I are doing here. cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From palnatoke@g... Sun Jun 18 21:44:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1532 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 04:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 04:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 04:44:42 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p446-14.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.129.142]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e5J4ieD15732 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 06:44:40 +0200 Message-ID: <002601bfd9a8$b512bb20$8e812fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 06:33:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Riff wrote: : The only problem I see with this is with = Players : spending multiple turns simply oscillating between Zones 4 and 5 to = build : up a massive supply of Tokens. Perhaps the necessity of forefeiting : several turns to do that would balance it out. It could just be a number of Tokens equal to the highest-numbered zone = entered, though that would give a smaller flow. Ole From WayperP@p... Sun Jun 18 22:01:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14455 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 05:01:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 05:01:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 05:01:01 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA15049; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:00:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma014849; Mon, 19 Jun 00 15:00:38 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:00:38 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:00:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Monday, June 19, 2000 2:33 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > Riff wrote: > > : The only problem I see with this is with > : Players > : spending multiple turns simply oscillating between Zones 4 and 5 to > : build > : up a massive supply of Tokens. Perhaps the necessity of forefeiting > : several turns to do that would balance it out. > > It could just be a number of Tokens equal to the highest-numbered zone > entered, though that would give a smaller flow. The highest numbered zone entered in one turn, yeah? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Sun Jun 18 22:01:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15582 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 05:01:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 05:01:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 05:01:36 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA15542; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:01:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015309; Mon, 19 Jun 00 15:01:15 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:01:15 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Mornington Crescent Website Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:01:13 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Monday, June 19, 2000 6:05 AM, Martin Sewell [SMTP:martin@m...] wrote: > The IMCS are pleased to announce their new Website: > > http://morningtoncrescent.org/ It looks nice, but is the IMCS subcontracting this website? Who's running the show? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From palnatoke@g... Sun Jun 18 22:22:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16331 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 05:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 05:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 05:22:02 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p446-14.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.129.142]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e5J5M0D17659 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:22:00 +0200 Message-ID: <006501bfd9ad$ec29df80$8e812fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:15:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" : >=20 : > It could just be a number of Tokens equal to the highest-numbered = zone : > entered, though that would give a smaller flow. :=20 : The highest numbered zone entered in one turn, yeah? :=20 Yep. I assume that we leave the real zones A-D as zone 7... Ole From palnatoke@g... Sun Jun 18 22:22:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32329 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 05:22:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 05:22:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 05:22:03 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p446-14.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.129.142]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e5J5M1D17662 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:22:02 +0200 Message-ID: <006601bfd9ad$ecf34a00$8e812fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: RE: Mornington Crescent Website Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:17:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Paul wrote:=20 : It looks nice, but is the IMCS subcontracting this website? Who's = running : the show? :=20 Looks like it's Martin Sewell's show. Of the 'Players' links, his was = the one that seemed to work. But he has an imcs@m... = address ;-) Ole From M.Davies@d... Mon Jun 19 00:45:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20614 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 07:45:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 07:45:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO unix1.derby.ac.uk) (193.60.145.21) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 07:45:18 -0000 Received: from derby.ac.uk (pc-b11-10p.derby.ac.uk [10.6.11.10]) by unix1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA04599 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:44:06 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <394DD1D9.3AFEF39A@d...> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:55:06 +0100 Reply-To: M.Davies@d... Organization: University of Derby X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mornington Crescent Website References: <4.2.0.58.20000618205702.0096bb40@m...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mary Davies Please remove me from all the Mornington Crescent web lists From M.Davies@d... Mon Jun 19 00:46:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21717 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 07:46:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 07:46:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO unix1.derby.ac.uk) (193.60.145.21) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 07:46:09 -0000 Received: from derby.ac.uk (pc-b11-10p.derby.ac.uk [10.6.11.10]) by unix1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA04624 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:44:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <394DD20B.1D3B5238@d...> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:55:56 +0100 Reply-To: M.Davies@d... Organization: University of Derby X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: unsubscribe References: <002601bfd9a8$b512bb20$8e812fc3@richardmayhew> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mary Davies Me please From martin@m... Mon Jun 19 02:42:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12682 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 09:42:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 09:42:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 09:42:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 13871 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 09:50:44 -0000 Received: from rack.servers.plus.net.uk (212.159.2.65) by merlins.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 09:50:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 25308 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 09:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO martin-s--puter) (195.166.141.239) by rack.servers.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 09:43:23 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000619103835.00955440@m...> X-Sender: msewell@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:42:15 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: RE: Mornington Crescent Website In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Martin Sewell At 06:01 19/06/00 , Paul Wayper wrote: >On Monday, June 19, 2000 6:05 AM, Martin Sewell >[SMTP:martin@m...] wrote: > > The IMCS are pleased to announce their new Website: > > > > http://morningtoncrescent.org/ > >It looks nice, but is the IMCS subcontracting this website? Who's running >the show? Yes, it's my Web site. I've no idea why it ended up so anonymous...the IMCS are just /so/ secretive... ;-) I'll have to ensure that the link to my site fails too... ;-) Cheers Martin From kevan@s... Mon Jun 19 02:44:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14269 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 09:44:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 09:44:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mq.egroups.com) (10.1.1.36) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 09:44:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.102] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 09:44:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:44:11 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Mornington Crescent Website Message-ID: <8ikq1b+3aat@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <394DD1D9.3AFEF39A@d...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1531 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Please remove me from all the Mornington Crescent web lists I don't even have the authority to remove you from *this* one any more, actually. You might try clicking the "Unsubscribe" button on the front page of the eGroups interface (the page you get taken to when you click the link I presume you clicked at morningtoncrescent.org). Failing that, send an email to l-nomic-d- unsubscribe@egroups.com. That only unsubscribes you from *this* list, though. I've no idea which others exist, even less which ones you're subscribed to. Nice to see IMCS getting a more stable Web presence than the erratic imcs.org, anyway; an applaudable attempt to create an ultimate MC resource base. Pity someone seems to have hacked into the IMCS Web site and put a load of crude nonsense up in place of the report on the 1999 UK Championships Final, mind. CAMREC terrorism? I thought they'd calmed down a bit lately, under Vednik's new presidency. Tsk. A shame that Dan's glorious MCiOS server is only given fleeting appendectoral mention, too. Oh, and My Life Story's excellent "Mornington Crescent" album was reissued the other year, incidentally, and is easily available from any online CD-purchasing place you'd care to mention. Beautifully lyrical, orchestral, full-of-life stuff. Although I'm still quite pleased that I found the original green-cover rarity for eight quid, the other month. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "She travels education class, reading poems on the Tube." From snowl@s... Mon Jun 19 03:36:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5539 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 10:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 10:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 10:36:42 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.46] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 133yv3-000ANU-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:36:41 +0100 Message-ID: <008301bfd9da$2f4df7c0$2e877ed4@snow> To: References: <4.2.0.58.20000618205702.0096bb40@m...> <394DD1D9.3AFEF39A@d...> Subject: Re: MN: Unsubscribing Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:42:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Mary Davies said: > Please remove me from all the Mornington Crescent web lists For eGroups (or OneList) send a empty email to -unsubscribe@egroups.com replacing with the name of the list you want to unsubscribe eg l-nomic-d-unsubscribe@egroups.com for this one. -- Snow I can turn myself into the script to episode 21 from Buffy TVS using only my mind. From snowl@s... Mon Jun 19 03:36:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31657 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 10:36:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 10:36:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 10:36:44 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.46] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 133yv4-000ANU-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:36:43 +0100 Message-ID: <008401bfd9da$3038f400$2e877ed4@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:31:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff wrote: > It kind of comes down to the difference between playing a real boardgame, > and playing in e-mail. In RL, it's fine (even preferential) to not be able > to do much in one turn, because it makes the turns short and play passes > quickly around the table without a problem. In an e-mail game, however, > you want to be able to do more in one turn, because of the time it takes to > get around to your turn again. With a couple days between players, a game > takes incredibly long if you can only move a couple stations in one go. Good point, but moving needn't be the sole purpose of a turn. I suppose the size of the free turn will be determined by how much other stuff can be done inside one turn. > Well, why don't we say 3 free Stations, 1 Black per additional, and +X > Black Tokens upon entering Zone X... and we can iron out any problems of > slowness or token hoarding in playtesting before we write the Basic Ruleset > in stone. > > (Although my initial prediction is we'll want to change to 5 free Stations > for an e-mail game, and 3 for a RL game.) > > Sound good? If we combine this with Ole's suggestion about the highest zone entered (or maybe the zone the move is finished at) then it sounds great. We might also cap the number of blacks a player can carry to prevent hoarding. -- Annatov Snow Do you want to see my innuendo? From riffraff@n... Mon Jun 19 15:55:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15319 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 22:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 22:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 22:55:46 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28101 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:55:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:00:14 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >If we combine this with Ole's suggestion about the highest zone >entered (or maybe the zone the move is finished at) then it sounds >great. Yeah, let's try it with the zone finished at. That seems... cleaner, somehow. "At the end of your Move, gain a number of Black Tokens equal to the number of the Zone occupied." (Except when Passing, right?) That would also prevent players from simply looping into the outer Zones and back in one move to gain Tokens - to get the benefit, you have to spend at least a little time there. So, here's what we've got: Movement: Each Turn, you may move up to 3 Stations for free. Each additional Station moved costs 1 Black Token. At the end of your Move, gain X Black Tokens, where X is the number of the Zone the Move is ended in. Passing: A Player may elect to play a Move of "Pass", and remain in eir current location. E gains 1 Plastic Token of any color, but does not gain the bonus Tokens for Zone. Line Changes: A Player may change Line before and after eir Move for free. Changing Line during the Move costs 1 Black Token per change. Actions: A Player may take one free Action before the Move, and one after the Move. Additional Actions may be purchased at the cost of one _____ Token each. [I think Green, but we'll save that for further discussion] Escalators: A Player may change Line for free when travelling across an Escalator link. The extra Station still counts toward the total number of Stations moved. If noone has any objections, I'll add this to the Beta Ruleset (along with the various definitions and so forth from the original rules.) cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Mon Jun 19 16:36:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29118 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 23:36:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 23:36:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 23:36:29 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id XAA11979 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:36:11 GMT Received: from unknown(192.168.109.16) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xma011712; Mon, 19 Jun 00 23:34:57 GMT Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com with ESMTP id XAA09212 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:34:57 GMT Subject: Re: MN: RE: Mornington Crescent Website To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SV-GW1/Seagate Internet(Release 5.0.2a (Intl)|23 November 1999) at 06/19/2000 04:34:57 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... I wish I could see it - my company's firewall won't let me in... miKi "Wayper, Paul" on 06/18/2000 10:01:13 PM Please respond to l-nomic-d@egroups.com To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" cc: Subject: MN: RE: Mornington Crescent Website On Monday, June 19, 2000 6:05 AM, Martin Sewell [SMTP:martin@m...] wrote: > The IMCS are pleased to announce their new Website: > > http://morningtoncrescent.org/ It looks nice, but is the IMCS subcontracting this website? Who's running the show? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Free @Backup service! Click here for your free trial of @Backup. @Backup is the most convenient way to securely protect and access your files online. Try it now and receive 300 MyPoints. http://click.egroups.com/1/5668/10/_/9641/_/961390898/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From palnatoke@g... Mon Jun 19 22:08:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27731 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 05:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 05:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 05:08:50 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p453-76.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.133.76]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e5K58m931821 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:08:49 +0200 Message-ID: <006501bfda75$3c551160$4c852fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 06:56:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" : Line Changes: A Player may change Line before and after eir Move for = free. : Changing Line during the Move costs 1 Black Token per change. :=20 : Actions: A Player may take one free Action before the Move, and one = after : the Move. Additional Actions may be purchased at the cost of one = _____ : Token each. [I think Green, but we'll save that for further = discussion] Is Line Change an Action? Ole From WayperP@p... Mon Jun 19 22:31:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2549 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 05:31:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 05:31:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 05:31:11 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA04418; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:31:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma004406; Tue, 20 Jun 00 15:31:05 +1000 Received: by aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:31:05 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Re: Mornington Crescent Website Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:31:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Monday, June 19, 2000 7:44 PM, Kevan [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > Nice to see IMCS getting a more stable Web presence than the erratic > imcs.org, anyway; an applaudable attempt to create an ultimate MC > resource base. Pity someone seems to have hacked into the IMCS Web > site and put a load of crude nonsense up in place of the report on > the 1999 UK Championships Final, mind. CAMREC terrorism? I thought > they'd calmed down a bit lately, under Vednik's new presidency. Tsk. > A shame that Dan's glorious MCiOS server is only given fleeting > appendectoral mention, too. I wonder if we can get our own 'paulway@m...' reflectors? Martin? Would that be kosher? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From martin@m... Tue Jun 20 01:07:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15163 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:07:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 08:07:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:07:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 12593 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:15:07 -0000 Received: from ruin.servers.plus.net.uk (212.159.2.66) by merlins.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:15:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 2966 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:09:05 -0000 Received: from a223-07-02.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO martin-s--puter) (195.166.140.223) by ruin.servers.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:09:05 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000620084628.009573c0@m...> X-Sender: msewell@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:56:44 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: RE: Re: Mornington Crescent Website In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Martin Sewell At 06:31 20/06/00, Paul Wayper wrote: >I wonder if we can get our own 'paulway@m...' reflectors? > >Martin? Would that be kosher? (anything)@morningtoncrescent.org is redirected to my usual POP3 account with F9. I can use Filters on Eudora Pro to automatically redirect mail to any specific address when I download from the server though. If that's any help... Cheers Martin From martin@m... Tue Jun 20 01:07:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28971 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:07:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 08:07:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO merlins.force9.net) (195.166.128.23) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:07:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 12597 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:15:08 -0000 Received: from ruin.servers.plus.net.uk (212.159.2.66) by merlins.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:15:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 2971 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:09:07 -0000 Received: from a223-07-02.dial.plus.net.uk (HELO martin-s--puter) (195.166.140.223) by ruin.servers.plus.net.uk with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:09:07 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000620085908.009a96b0@m...> X-Sender: msewell@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:04:09 +0100 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: RE: Mornington Crescent Website In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Martin Sewell Re: http://morningtoncrescent.org At 00:34 20/06/00, Richard/miKi wrote: >I wish I could see it - my company's firewall won't let me in... If it's any help, the actual site address is: http://www.msewell.f9.co.uk/mc Cheers Martin From kevan@s... Tue Jun 20 01:43:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25523 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 08:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 08:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.46) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 08:43:42 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.95] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 08:43:40 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:43:33 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Token Colleciton Message-ID: <8inarl+6njt@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 689 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Passing: A Player may elect to play a Move of "Pass", and remain in eir > current location. E gains 1 Plastic Token of any color, but does not gain > the bonus Tokens for Zone. Out of interest (and I think this is probably very relevant) are we still happy with the "particular Colour Token for passing through Interchanges or landing on one" approach for gaining Tokens otherwise? Or is it worth lapsing to "one Token of any Colour if you land on an Interchange, maybe two if it's a big multi-liner", in light of the generally decreased velocities? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "You saved your tokens for the right one to come along." From snowl@s... Tue Jun 20 03:50:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8496 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 10:50:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 10:50:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 10:50:22 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.228] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 134Lbn-000K5o-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:50:21 +0100 Message-ID: <006a01bfdaa5$409922e0$e48d7ed4@snow> To: References: <8inarl+6njt@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Token Colleciton Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:26:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Kevan said: > > Passing: A Player may elect to play a Move of "Pass", and remain in > eir > > current location. E gains 1 Plastic Token of any color, but does > not gain > > the bonus Tokens for Zone. Do we need to give Tokens for Passing? I remember there was a reason for it, but I can't remember what. Is there anything to stop a person making a Move of zero length? Should there be? If there is no restriction can we dump the Pass option? > Out of interest (and I think this is probably very relevant) are we > still happy with the "particular Colour Token for passing through > Interchanges or landing on one" approach for gaining Tokens > otherwise? Or is it worth lapsing to "one Token of any Colour if you > land on an Interchange, maybe two if it's a big multi-liner", in > light of the generally decreased velocities? I think Players should have to do something more complicated than move to get Tokens. That said, the current system might work quite well. Go out to Zone 4/5/6 get some blacks. Come back to Z1. Use the blacks to make a long move and get tokens via the interchange system. -- Annatov Snow I hate people who complain about people who use mobile phones on trains. From snowl@s... Tue Jun 20 03:50:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 602 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 10:50:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 10:50:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 10:50:30 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.228] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 134Lbv-000K5o-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:50:28 +0100 Message-ID: <006b01bfdaa5$45487a20$e48d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <006501bfda75$3c551160$4c852fc3@richardmayhew> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:47:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Ole said: > Is Line Change an Action? It is in the current Ruleset, but I don't think it should be in the new one. -- Annatov Snow It's too hot. From kevan@s... Tue Jun 20 06:53:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30300 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 13:53:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 13:53:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mw.egroups.com) (10.1.2.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 13:53:18 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.125] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 13:53:18 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:50:23 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Token Collection Message-ID: <8insqv+o2c8@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <006a01bfdaa5$409922e0$e48d7ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1883 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Do we need to give Tokens for Passing? I remember there was a reason > for it, but I can't remember what. It was a way to avoid a Player being trapped without Tokens, unable to get to an Interchange to get some; something that was, I think, more of an issue in the earlier days. Over time, Passing just became an easy way to get the Tokens you needed, if you weren't doing anything much. I think we can live without the bonus. If someone does get pinned down without a Token to their name, all credit to the pinner-down. > Is there anything to stop a person making a Move of zero length? > Should there be? If there is no restriction can we dump the Pass > option? I'm not really sure about a zero-length Move, at this stage. I think a Pass should remain if only to permit the dialogue "Hmm, I can't do anything, I'll pass.", though, which is a common enough refrain at York and MCiOS. > I think Players should have to do something more complicated than move > to get Tokens. That said, the current system might work quite well. Go > out to Zone 4/5/6 get some blacks. Come back to Z1. Use the blacks to > make a long move and get tokens via the interchange system. Hm, that sounds too bothersome. I think one of your choice from an Interchange is fair enough, Interchanges being more vulnerable. Restricting Movement (particularly gravitating it to the Circle Line) should keep everyone together and make movement more strategic. No bad thing. > -- Annatov Snow > I hate people who complain about people who use mobile phones on > trains. Mm, I find the "I'm on the train!" jokes rather pathetic - if someone's using a *mobile* phone, that means that the other person won't know where they are, and is likely to ask. Tsk. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "I haven't got a telephone, and if I did it wouldn't ring." From Richard_M_Brockie@n... Tue Jun 20 10:21:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13780 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 17:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 17:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 17:21:43 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id RAA16371 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:21:43 GMT Received: from unknown(192.168.109.16) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xma015852; Tue, 20 Jun 00 17:20:10 GMT Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com with ESMTP id RAA14613 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:20:09 GMT Subject: Re: MN: RE: Mornington Crescent Website To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:20:07 -0700 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SV-GW1/Seagate Internet(Release 5.0.2a (Intl)|23 November 1999) at 06/20/2000 10:20:10 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Richard_M_Brockie@n... Aha! It all becomes clear now. miKi Martin Sewell on 06/20/2000 01:04:09 AM Please respond to l-nomic-d@egroups.com To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com cc: Subject: Re: MN: RE: Mornington Crescent Website Re: http://morningtoncrescent.org At 00:34 20/06/00, Richard/miKi wrote: >I wish I could see it - my company's firewall won't let me in... If it's any help, the actual site address is: http://www.msewell.f9.co.uk/mc Cheers Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids, contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest price. New FREE service! http://click.egroups.com/1/5746/10/_/9641/_/961488432/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From riffraff@n... Tue Jun 20 14:47:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10733 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 21:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 21:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 21:47:48 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19699 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:47:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:52:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Subject: Moving X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Ole said: >> Is Line Change an Action? > >It is in the current Ruleset, but I don't think it should be in the >new one. Agreed, I think it can be simply mentioned in the turn comments or something. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Tue Jun 20 17:21:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1459 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 00:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 00:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta2 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 00:21:12 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9544133.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.133]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA11085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:20:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:25:41 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Tokens X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> Do we need to give Tokens for Passing? I remember there was a reason >> for it, but I can't remember what. > >It was a way to avoid a Player being trapped without Tokens, unable >to get to an Interchange to get some; something that was, I think, >more of an issue in the earlier days. Over time, Passing just became >an easy way to get the Tokens you needed, if you weren't doing >anything much. I think we can live without the bonus. If someone does >get pinned down without a Token to their name, all credit to the >pinner-down. I don't think that's possible any more anyway... since you can always move 3 Stations for free, and gain at least 1 Black Token after every Move, the only way I can think of that it could happen is for all the Stations around your Home Station to be blocked while you're there. Very unlikely. I included the bonus just as a way to get non-black tokens (since you'd probably never choose a black one for Passing) if you needed one and were in a situation where you couldn't otherwise get them, but I could go either way if people think it's not necessary. > >> Is there anything to stop a person making a Move of zero length? >> Should there be? If there is no restriction can we dump the Pass >> option? > >I'm not really sure about a zero-length Move, at this stage. I think >a Pass should remain if only to permit the dialogue "Hmm, I can't do >anything, I'll pass.", though, which is a common enough refrain at >York and MCiOS. Yep. > >> I think Players should have to do something more complicated than >move >> to get Tokens. That said, the current system might work quite well. >Go >> out to Zone 4/5/6 get some blacks. Come back to Z1. Use the blacks >to >> make a long move and get tokens via the interchange system. > >Hm, that sounds too bothersome. I think one of your choice from an >Interchange is fair enough, Interchanges being more vulnerable. >Restricting Movement (particularly gravitating it to the Circle Line) >should keep everyone together and make movement more strategic. No >bad thing. I was thinking of some kind of modification on the current system... might as well declare Tokens as the next item of discussion, eh? Here's my thoughts and ideas re: Tokens... Colours: Black: for movement and movement-based Actions. The Zone bonus makes them plentiful, so we don't need any other means of collecting them. Red: For Actions that directly affect other Players (i.e. attacks) Blue: For Actions that indirectly affect other Players or affect the game as a whole (i.e. changes to Game State) (I personally feel that these should be somewhat more common than the Reds, in reverse of the original rules where the Reds were more common. I guess I'm just not very agressive. ;) ) Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. Primarily, I think these would be used as Tokens spent to buy extra Actions. Since that's a valuable ability, they should be slightly harder to get than your average token, which is why I like the idea of having to Recycle other tokens to get them - you have to travel to one of a particular group of Stations and pay a Plastic token (and maybe a Bronze as well) to get one. This forces you to plan ahead when getting them, whereas if we simply use Black Tokens or "Any Plastic Token", then you lose that extra opportunity for strategizing. (Esp. since Blacks are incredibly easy to get now.) After studying the map a bit, I think recycling should be available only at Green Stations - there's only 12 of them, but they're well spread out and there's one reasonably near just about any spot on the map, without it being _too_ easy to get to them. Bronze: Used for minor Actions, to add extra cost to more powerful Actions, and possibly as upkeep to Actions with duration (should we implement any). Also, can be collected and cashed in for Silver Tokens. They should be relatively common. Silver: For extra-powerful Actions, and to cash in for Gold. I think these should _only_ be available through saving up Bronzes, forcing Players to save up for those powerful Actions, rather than just pulling off a 5-interchange Move like before. Gold: For extremely powerful Actions, and for winning. Available through saving up Silvers, and some other tricky manoeuvers to be decided later. Token Bonuses for Moves: (# of Int. passes through, and # of Lines from an Int. landed on) 2 Int. - 1 Br 3 - 1 Br, 1 Bu 4 - 1 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd 5 - 2 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd 6 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd 7 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd 8 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd ... and so on. A Player could easily gain a couple Bronze and maybe a Blue each Move, and the high numbers of Tokens gained with longer moves is balanced by the number of Black tokens required to make such a move. To pass 8 Interchanges, you'd have to spend 7 Blacks. (Remember, the Station landed on doesn't count as 'passed through'.) The table's open-ended, since a Player could theoretically stash up a load of Black Tokens and make a truly massive Move, unless we want to put a limit on Stations moved in a turn. 8 Br = 1 Si; 4 Si = 1 Go? Stacking: I don't think Token Stacking needs to be changed from the original version, except to add that black tokens spent for the Move aren't stacked, and recycling for Green tokens is a Token Exchange, so they aren't stacked either. That reminds me: along with our current Pre- and Post- Move and Neutral Actions, how about also having some Free Actions, which wouldn't count toward your number of Actions in a turn. These would primarily be Token Exchange Actions, like Recycling and , although we might come up with others at some point. Whew. So, what do the rest of you think? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Wed Jun 21 14:52:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21560 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 21:52:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 21:52:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 21:52:16 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.37] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 134sPu-000MAf-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:52:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000701bfdbca$deb2cdc0$258d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: Tokens Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:50:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff: > >I'm not really sure about a zero-length Move, at this stage. I think > >a Pass should remain if only to permit the dialogue "Hmm, I can't do > >anything, I'll pass.", though, which is a common enough refrain at > >York and MCiOS. Yes, but is that Pass for the Move or Pass for the Turn. Is there any difference between Passing for the Move, but still making Actions, and making a zero-length Move and Actions. Rushton is at Charing Cross. Rushton: [Blocking Waterloo] Charing Cross (NT) [Wild Green Park] Rushton: [Blocking Waterloo] Pass (Charing Cross (NT)) [Wild Green Park] Rushton: Pass Just notation really. > Colours: > > Black: for movement and movement-based Actions. The Zone bonus makes them > plentiful, so we don't need any other means of collecting them. OK, but see my comment about greens. > Red: For Actions that directly affect other Players (i.e. attacks) OK > Blue: For Actions that indirectly affect other Players or affect the game > as a whole (i.e. changes to Game State) OK > (I personally feel that these > should be somewhat more common than the Reds, in reverse of the original > rules where the Reds were more common. I guess I'm just not very > agressive. ;) ) Depends on what Actions are available really. > Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. I think Greens could be replaced by Blacks and/or Blues. Say 4 blacks for an extra Action, Blues for the rest. Reduce the complexity a little. > Bronze: Used for minor Actions, to add extra cost to more powerful Actions OK > Silver: For extra-powerful Actions, and to cash in for Gold. I think these > should _only_ be available through saving up Bronzes, I don't think we need these as well as Golds and bronzes. If they're just bigger denominations of Bronzes then I can't see the point. It doesn't matter if someone has 2000 bronzes it's just a number. I suppose this might be different for RL where a stack of 30 bronze might be bulky, but then we could just have a 10Br token. > Gold: For extremely powerful Actions, and for winning OK. > The table's open-ended, since a Player could theoretically stash up a load > of Black Tokens and make a truly massive Move, unless we want to put a > limit on Stations moved in a turn. We could say you can't pass through or land on a Station already passed through. Or cap the number of blacks a Player can hold (say 10). > Token Bonuses for Moves: > (# of Int. passes through, and # of Lines from an Int. landed on) > Stacking: I don't think Token Stacking needs to be changed from the I'll have to think about these. > That reminds me: along with our current Pre- and Post- Move and Neutral > Actions, how about also having some Free Actions, which wouldn't count > toward your number of Actions in a turn. OK. --Annatov Snow Minus two wisdom teeth and some blood. From riffraff@n... Wed Jun 21 20:53:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6324 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 03:53:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jun 2000 03:53:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 03:53:06 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA10702 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:52:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:57:35 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Rushton is at Charing Cross. > >Rushton: [Blocking Waterloo] Charing Cross (NT) [Wild Green Park] >Rushton: [Blocking Waterloo] Pass (Charing Cross (NT)) [Wild Green >Park] >Rushton: Pass > >Just notation really. True, but 'Pass' makes it easier to see at a glance that the Player hasn't gone anywhere. It's also arguable that a Move of 0 isn't a Move at all. Plus, it prevents confusion over whether or not you get token bonuses for a 0-length Move. You simply can't make one; you have to Pass instead. >> (I personally feel that [Blue Tokens] >> should be somewhat more common than the Reds, in reverse of the >> original rules where the Reds were more common. I guess I'm just not >> very agressive. ;) ) > >Depends on what Actions are available really. Well, having more attack options doesn't necessarily imply that people should be able to attack more often - just that, when they do, they have more choices. >> Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. > >I think Greens could be replaced by Blacks and/or Blues. Say 4 blacks >for an extra Action, Blues for the rest. Reduce the complexity a >little. I like the added complexity... not only does it make your own planning more strategic (when to get Greens, and how many, and what Tokens to trade for them), but it provides hints of what other Players might be planning, allowing you to make plans based on that. If I see Kevan suddenly collect 7 or 8 Greens, I know he's probably up to something. Without those sort of clues, pretty much anything someone does is going to be an utter surprise, and instead of being a strategy game, it becomes "Gather Gold Tokens as quickly as possible and hope no-one unexpectedly attacks you". Plus, having the extra colour adds more... well, colour. Just having Black, Blue, and Red is dull. At least we don't have to deal with Whites and Yellows and Oranges and Puces and Chartreuses like in regular MC. :) >> Silver: For extra-powerful Actions, and to cash in for Gold. I >> think these should _only_ be available through saving up Bronzes, > >I don't think we need these as well as Golds and bronzes. If they're >just bigger denominations of Bronzes then I can't see the point. It >doesn't matter if someone has 2000 bronzes it's just a number. I >suppose this might be different for RL where a stack of 30 bronze >might be bulky, but then we could just have a 10Br token. This is similar to Greens. "Uh-oh," I think, "Snow's stashing up a lot of Bronzes. I'll try and head him off at Bank before he can cash them in for Silvers and do something terrifying to me." Plus, like Greens, it makes Actions that require them slightly more difficult, since you have to get to a specific Station to acquire them. Adds an interesting extra dimension to it. Plus it adds a sort of aesthetic balance to the thing. Can't just go from Bronze to Gold with nothing in-between... >> The table's open-ended, since a Player could theoretically stash up >> a load of Black Tokens and make a truly massive Move, unless we want to >>>> put a limit on Stations moved in a turn. > >We could say you can't pass through or land on a Station already >passed through. Or cap the number of blacks a Player can hold (say >10). The first sounds a bit counter-intuitive, and would probably become annoying in practice. Probably we'll have to put a cap on Blacks, but let's wait for play-testing to decide how much. (I was thinking around 15-20, myself.) Anyone else have comments on my Token Thoughts? >--Annatov Snow >Minus two wisdom teeth and some blood. Owch. I hope you at least got some fun painkillers out of it. They gave me Percocet for my foot, it was pretty nice. cheers, --Riff p.s. Does anyone have the URL for the Tube Map where the Lines are laid out geographically accurately, rather than on a grid? I can't remember if it was here that I saw it or somewhere else... "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From kevan@s... Thu Jun 22 01:36:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17531 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 08:36:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jun 2000 08:36:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.47) by mta3 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 08:36:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.101] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2000 08:36:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:36:08 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Bendy Tube map Message-ID: <8isj5o+himi@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 542 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > p.s. Does anyone have the URL for the Tube Map where the Lines are laid out > geographically accurately, rather than on a grid? I can't remember if it > was here that I saw it or somewhere else... It's still in the "pages that have amused me lately" bit of my Web page, actually, three or four months on. Tsk. http://www.xara.com/gallery/usergallery/maps/tubemap.html Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Her train of thought is underground; the map is yours, but God knows what you'll make of it." From snowl@s... Thu Jun 22 04:57:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16277 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 11:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jun 2000 11:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 11:57:39 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.166] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1355c1-000CLM-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:57:37 +0100 Message-ID: <002201bfdc40$f95b6f80$a6837ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:56:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" RiffRaff wrote: > True, but 'Pass' makes it easier to see at a glance that the Player hasn't > gone anywhere. OK. > >> Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. > > > >I think Greens could be replaced by Blacks and/or Blues > > I like the added complexity... not only does it make your own planning more > strategic. OK, let's leave them in for now and see how they perform. > >> Silver: For extra-powerful Actions, and to cash in for Gold. I > >> think these should _only_ be available through saving up Bronzes, > > > >I don't think we need these as well as Golds and bronzes. If they're > >just bigger denominations of Bronzes then I can't see the point. It > >doesn't matter if someone has 2000 bronzes it's just a number. I > >suppose this might be different for RL where a stack of 30 bronze > >might be bulky, but then we could just have a 10Br token. > > This is similar to Greens. No, I really do have a reason here. Assuming something similar to the current ruleset; it is just as easy to do Bronze->Silver as Bronze->Silver->Gold in the same Turn. And since one can do Gold->Silver without being at Bank Silvers are redundant. As an example, if a player has enough Bronze to make a Gold then e isn't going to make 4 Silvers even if Silvers are what e needs. If eir plans change later e will have a Gold e can use. If eir plan doesn't change e can create the Silver anyway. On the otherhand if we used Bank for Bronze->Silver and some other station (Bond Street say) for Silver->Gold and maybe require down-exchanging at Bank as well then maybe we should keep Silvers. > Plus it adds a sort of aesthetic balance to the thing. Can't just go from > Bronze to Gold with nothing in-between... Rename Bronze to Silver. ------------------------- OK, I'm brain-storming. Here is a different approach to Tokens. Rather than have Action costs measured in x reds for an aggressive move have 1 red+ cost in Bronze/Silver/Gold. That is remove the emphasis from having enough plastics to do something towards having one to do it plus enough "money" Tokens. Or to put it another way. Having a plastic gives you a right to do an Action, but the cost is made up in "money" Tokens. Shunting 1red. Blocking 1red+1bronze. Bulkheading 1red +4bronze. Bridges Up 1blue+2bronze. I don't actually think this is a good idea. I'm just hoping a brainstorming session will throw up something good. > >--Annatov Snow > >Minus two wisdom teeth and some blood. > > Owch. I hope you at least got some fun painkillers out of it. They gave > me Percocet for my foot, it was pretty nice. I didn't need painkillers because it didn't hurt. What did you do to your foot incidentally? -- Annatov Snow What is apparent is that I don't understand. What is less apparent is what I don't understand. From riffraff@n... Thu Jun 22 11:52:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23496 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 18:52:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jun 2000 18:52:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 18:52:58 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19498 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:52:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:57:27 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >No, I really do have a reason here. Assuming something similar to the >current ruleset; it is just as easy to do Bronze->Silver as >Bronze->Silver->Gold in the same Turn. And since one can do >Gold->Silver without being at Bank Silvers are redundant. > >As an example, if a player has enough Bronze to make a Gold then e >isn't going to make 4 Silvers even if Silvers are what e needs. If eir >plans change later e will have a Gold e can use. If eir plan doesn't >change e can create the Silver anyway. I see. Hmmm. Well, there is the fact that the Gold can be stolen though a Shunt or some other means, whereas if you have 4 Silvers instead you're not risking as much. >On the otherhand if we used Bank for Bronze->Silver and some other >station (Bond Street say) for Silver->Gold and maybe require >down-exchanging at Bank as well then maybe we should keep Silvers. It would seem strange to not be able to do all exchanges at Bank, but I could see requiring down-exchanging there too. That might become too inconvienient, though. Well, what if we forgot the idea about making Silvers only acquirable by collecting Bronzes? Like in the original version, make it possible (although difficult) to acquire them without having to save up. 2 - 1 Br 3 - 1 Br, 1 Bu 4 - 2 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd 5 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd 6 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd, 1 Si 7 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd, 1 Si 8 - 4 Br, 3 Bu, 2 Rd, 1 Si What's everyone else think about this issue? Vital decision, here. >OK, I'm brain-storming. Here is a different approach to Tokens. Rather >than have Action costs measured in x reds for an aggressive move have >1 red+ cost in Bronze/Silver/Gold. That is remove the emphasis from >having enough plastics to do something towards having one to do it >plus enough "money" Tokens. > >Or to put it another way. Having a plastic gives you a right to do an >Action, but the cost is made up in "money" Tokens. > >Shunting 1red. >Blocking 1red+1bronze. >Bulkheading 1red +4bronze. >Bridges Up 1blue+2bronze. > >I don't actually think this is a good idea. I'm just hoping a >brainstorming session will throw up something good. Actually, I was thinking a bit along those lines too. The Plastic Token defines what kind of Action it is, and the Metallics provide the extra cost. The Token Bonus table might looks something like this: 2 - 1 Br 3 - 2 Br 4 - 2 Br, 1 Bu/Rd (choice) 5 - 3 Br, 1 Bu/Rd 6 - 3 Br, 1 Bu/Rd, 1 Si 7 - 3 Br, 2 Bu/Rd, 1 Si 8 - 4 Br, 2 Bu/Rd, 1 Si It's not a bad idea, but it's not really necessary. We can use Metallic Tokens to pump up Action costs regardless. That's actually what I had in mind for the more easily-available Bronzes - to add cost to an Action when an extra Plastic token might be too much. (Sudden thought: Instead of artifically limiting how far you can Move in a turn, or how many Blacks you can store, simply end the Token Bonus table at 8. That way the only extra benefit to a Move farther than that is the extra distance it provides.) > > >> >--Annatov Snow >> >Minus two wisdom teeth and some blood. >> >> Owch. I hope you at least got some fun painkillers out of it. They >gave >> me Percocet for my foot, it was pretty nice. > >I didn't need painkillers because it didn't hurt. What did you do to >your foot incidentally? Urgh. It was pretty dumb - I tried to jump down off of a wall that turned out to be taller then I thought (I'm not very good at judging distances). I landed badly and broke my heel. Fortunately, the joint is fine, so there shouldn't be any permanent effects once the fracture heals. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Thu Jun 22 11:57:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1643 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 18:57:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jun 2000 18:57:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 18:57:05 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.133] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19973 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:56:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:01:35 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Bendy Tube map X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> p.s. Does anyone have the URL for the Tube Map where the Lines are >laid out >> geographically accurately, rather than on a grid? I can't remember >if it >> was here that I saw it or somewhere else... > >It's still in the "pages that have amused me lately" bit of my Web >page, actually, three or four months on. Tsk. > >http://www.xara.com/gallery/usergallery/maps/tubemap.html Ah, it must have been your page that I saw it on originally, then. Thanks! --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Sat Jun 24 05:51:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21045 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2000 12:51:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 24 Jun 2000 12:51:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 24 Jun 2000 12:51:30 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.75] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 135pPC-0002fK-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:51:27 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01bfddda$ce6fb6a0$4b4b08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:41:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff said: > I see. Hmmm. Well, there is the fact that the Gold can be stolen though a > Shunt or some other means, whereas if you have 4 Silvers instead you're not > risking as much. You're risking less if you leave them as Bronze... > It would seem strange to not be able to do all exchanges at Bank, Maybe if only one type of exchange per Turn was permitted (bronze->silver or silver->gold), but I'm not sure it's enough. Or doing an exchange automatically transported you to your Home Station. Or make Bronze and Silver exchangable, but make Golds available some other way. > but I > could see requiring down-exchanging there too. That might become too > inconvienient, though. With good forward planning it shouldn't be any more inconvienient than having to up-exchange. > Well, what if we forgot the idea about making Silvers only acquirable by > collecting Bronzes? That doesn't change anything. The point is they're exchangable. And as long as they are exchangable there is little point having more than two types. > >Or to put it another way. Having a plastic gives you a right to do an > >Action, but the cost is made up in "money" Tokens. > > Actually, I was thinking a bit along those lines too. The Plastic Token > defines what kind of Action it is, and the Metallics provide the extra > cost. The trouble with this is that for really big violent Actions players only need one red and a load of Metallics. This is the warning thing you were talking about before, you need to have some idea of what your opponents are doing. If someone only has one red then e should only be able to do small aggressive Actions, not launch a massive attack using Metallics. > (Sudden thought: Instead of artifically limiting how far you can Move in a > turn, or how many Blacks you can store, simply end the Token Bonus table at > 8. That way the only extra benefit to a Move farther than that is the > extra distance it provides.) OK. -- Annatov Snow "That was much more fun than sex competitions!" From riffraff@n... Sat Jun 24 14:26:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27015 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2000 21:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 24 Jun 2000 21:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Jun 2000 21:26:37 -0000 Received: from [24.95.46.99] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA21452 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:26:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:31:07 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... > >> It would seem strange to not be able to do all exchanges at Bank, > >Maybe if only one type of exchange per Turn was permitted >(bronze->silver or silver->gold), but I'm not sure it's enough. Or >doing an exchange automatically transported you to your Home Station. >Or make Bronze and Silver exchangable, but make Golds available some >other way. I'll have to ponder these a bit. > >> but I >> could see requiring down-exchanging there too. That might become >too >> inconvienient, though. > >With good forward planning it shouldn't be any more inconvienient than >having to up-exchange. Hmm, okay. Worth testing, at any rate. > >> Well, what if we forgot the idea about making Silvers only >acquirable by >> collecting Bronzes? > >That doesn't change anything. The point is they're exchangable. And as >long as they are exchangable there is little point having more than >two types. > I just think it's nice to have the intermediary, y'know? Instead of having to save up 32 Bronzes before you can get a Gold and do something powerful, you can get a Silver and do something mediumly-powerful with only 8. It's like, in D&D, you can't cast a Meteor Swarm spell until 20th level, but at least you can do a Fireball at 5th or so. (Or whatever the numbers actually are.) Sure, we could simply replace costs of '1 Si' with '8 Br', but if we're going to do that, why not just get rid of Golds too, and make it cost 96 Br to play ? Because A) it's clumsy, and B) variety is the spice of life. >> The Plastic Token defines what kind of Action it is, and the Metallics >> provide the extra cost. > >The trouble with this is that for really big violent Actions players >only need one red and a load of Metallics. This is the warning thing >you were talking about before, you need to have some idea of what your >opponents are doing. If someone only has one red then e should only be >able to do small aggressive Actions, not launch a massive attack using >Metallics. Very true. Good point. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From kevan@s... Mon Jun 26 06:11:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11183 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2000 13:11:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Jun 2000 13:11:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Jun 2000 13:11:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.104] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2000 13:11:28 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:11:25 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Tokens Message-ID: <8j7kpt+c0tl@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4396 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Black: for movement and movement-based Actions. The Zone bonus makes them > plentiful, so we don't need any other means of collecting them. *Too* plentiful, perhaps? I originally (gods, nostalgia) proposed them as a way to stop too much Line hopping - you could only changes Lines by spending a Black, and could only get a Black by staying on the same line for a Turn. Are there (or will there be?) enough useful movement Actions to stop Black Tokens piling up? > Blue: For Actions that indirectly affect other Players or affect the game > as a whole (i.e. changes to Game State) (I personally feel that these > should be somewhat more common than the Reds, in reverse of the original > rules where the Reds were more common. I guess I'm just not very > agressive. ;) ) I don't know; the basic Red Actions of Shunting and Blocking are so useful that they really *need* to be cheap, allowing the threat of them to be fairly ever-present. Something like Blocking, being so dependent on Player location, should be one of the cheapest Actions of the game, I think. > Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. Primarily, I think these would be > used as Tokens spent to buy extra Actions. Since that's a valuable > ability, they should be slightly harder to get than your average token, > which is why I like the idea of having to Recycle other tokens to get them > - you have to travel to one of a particular group of Stations and pay a > Plastic token (and maybe a Bronze as well) to get one. Hm, I always saw Greens as being "any-colour" Tokens, since you could easily Recycle anything to get them, and the fact that their Actions were so vague and neutral fitted it quite well. > Bronze: Used for minor Actions, to add extra cost to more powerful Actions, > and possibly as upkeep to Actions with duration (should we implement any). Are we losing Possessions, then? > Token Bonuses for Moves: > (# of Int. passes through, and # of Lines from an Int. landed on) > > 2 Int. - 1 Br > 3 - 1 Br, 1 Bu > 4 - 1 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd > 5 - 2 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd > 6 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd > 7 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd > 8 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd Fearsome. Wouldn't it be easier to deal with on a "one Token of any Colour if you land on an Interchange, maybe two if it's a hefty one like Bank or Baker Street", particularly in real life play? Have I said this before? > The table's open-ended, since a Player could theoretically stash up a load > of Black Tokens and make a truly massive Move, unless we want to put a > limit on Stations moved in a turn. Hm, this scares me a bit, the idea of someone coughing out five Blacks for a charge through Zone 1, gathering a load of differently coloured Tokens and then whapping me with a two-Blue and two-Red Action I wasn't expecting? Hoarding Blacks for a speedy Move is fair enough, but getting Tokens for it as well seems nasty. As has been said before, and I think still applies, moving quickly is its own reward. > Stacking: I don't think Token Stacking needs to be changed from the > original version, except to add that black tokens spent for the Move aren't > stacked, and recycling for Green tokens is a Token Exchange, so they aren't > stacked either. Hm. Not worth ditching the idea of Token Stacking if we're going to try and play this in real life? You can't guarantee that everyone will have stackable Tokens available, after all (I'd probably use glass beads, myself). And I always found Stacking a bit dull, anyway; it was only really the expensive Tokens (and cheerful rule abuse) that made it worthwhile. I'd rather see Stacking killed off, maybe keeping the amusing "Gold Rush" Action as a "put a Gold Rush counter on a random Station; if a Player moves to a Station with a Gold Rush counter, they gain two Golds" thing. > That reminds me: along with our current Pre- and Post- Move and Neutral > Actions, how about also having some Free Actions, which wouldn't count > toward your number of Actions in a turn. These would primarily be Token > Exchange Actions, like Recycling and , although we might > come up with others at some point. Hm, this seems fair enough. I'm not sure what others we'd ever need, though. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Later on the Northern Line, she'll freak about the lack of sky." From riffraff@n... Mon Jun 26 14:44:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23709 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2000 21:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Jun 2000 21:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Jun 2000 21:44:43 -0000 Received: from [24.95.46.99] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA25371 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:44:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:49:13 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Tokens X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> Black: for movement and movement-based Actions. The Zone bonus >makes them >> plentiful, so we don't need any other means of collecting them. > >*Too* plentiful, perhaps? I originally (gods, nostalgia) proposed >them as a way to stop too much Line hopping - you could only changes >Lines by spending a Black, and could only get a Black by staying on >the same line for a Turn. Are there (or will there be?) enough useful >movement Actions to stop Black Tokens piling up? Well, I'm anticipating that with only 3 free stations, players will want to spend at least 2-4 Blacks on most moves, not counting multiple line changes. And there's always Straddles and varying Translocations as well. And it takes a long time to get to the outer Zones to get a lot of them, unless you use them up getting back, in which case there's no problem. > >> Blue: For Actions that indirectly affect other Players or affect >the game >> as a whole (i.e. changes to Game State) (I personally feel that >these >> should be somewhat more common than the Reds, in reverse of the >original >> rules where the Reds were more common. I guess I'm just not very >> agressive. ;) ) > >I don't know; the basic Red Actions of Shunting and Blocking are so >useful that they really *need* to be cheap, allowing the threat of >them to be fairly ever-present. Something like Blocking, being so >dependent on Player location, should be one of the cheapest Actions >of the game, I think. I can agree with that. No need to let my non-agressive feelings affect the game as a whole :) (Although I think Blocking should possibly be a Blue action.) > >> Green: Neutral or miscellaneous Actions. Primarily, I think these >would be >> used as Tokens spent to buy extra Actions. Since that's a valuable >> ability, they should be slightly harder to get than your average >token, >> which is why I like the idea of having to Recycle other tokens to >get them >> - you have to travel to one of a particular group of Stations and >pay a >> Plastic token (and maybe a Bronze as well) to get one. > >Hm, I always saw Greens as being "any-colour" Tokens, since you could >easily Recycle anything to get them, and the fact that their Actions >were so vague and neutral fitted it quite well. They would still be used for those Actions, it's just that I think getting extra Actions is what they'd be used for the most. > >> Bronze: Used for minor Actions, to add extra cost to more powerful >Actions, >> and possibly as upkeep to Actions with duration (should we >implement any). > >Are we losing Possessions, then? I would like to lose Possessions, and in fact I have a lengthy suggestion/proposal/rant prepared concerning their removal and replacement with "Player States" and "Podumes", but I was saving it for later because I think it's probably too much for the Basic Ruleset, which should (IMO, of course) be kept as simple as possible, not only so we can get the foundations of the game nice and sturdy, but also so it can be used to teach the game to new Players, ala the Baker Street rules from the Original Ruleset. (Whew! Long sentence.) > >> Token Bonuses for Moves: >> (# of Int. passes through, and # of Lines from an Int. landed on) >> >> 2 Int. - 1 Br >> 3 - 1 Br, 1 Bu >> 4 - 1 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd >> 5 - 2 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd >> 6 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd >> 7 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd >> 8 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd > >Fearsome. Wouldn't it be easier to deal with on a "one Token of any >Colour if you land on an Interchange, maybe two if it's a hefty one >like Bank or Baker Street", particularly in real life play? Have I >said this before? Well, if we want to make Blues and Reds have roughly the same value, we could do something like that. There should be provisions for getting Bronzes and possibly Silvers as well, though. What about this one: 2 - 1 Br 3 - 2 Br 4 - 2 Br, 1 Bu/Rd (choice) 5 - 3 Br, 1 Bu/Rd 6 - 3 Br, 1 Bu/Rd, 1 Si 7 - 3 Br, 2 Bu/Rd, 1 Si 8 - 4 Br, 2 Bu/Rd, 1 Si > >> The table's open-ended, since a Player could theoretically stash up >a load >> of Black Tokens and make a truly massive Move, unless we want to >put a >> limit on Stations moved in a turn. > >Hm, this scares me a bit, the idea of someone coughing out five >Blacks for a charge through Zone 1, gathering a load of differently >coloured Tokens and then whapping me with a two-Blue and two-Red >Action I wasn't expecting? Hoarding Blacks for a speedy Move is fair >enough, but getting Tokens for it as well seems nasty. > >As has been said before, and I think still applies, moving quickly is >its own reward. Well, as I mentioned in a later message, we could end the table at 8, thus providing no extra advantage for high speeds. It would take a lot of Black Tokens to get 7 or 8 Interchanges. (at least 6 or 7) >> Stacking: I don't think Token Stacking needs to be changed from the >> original version, except to add that black tokens spent for the >Move aren't >> stacked, and recycling for Green tokens is a Token Exchange, so >they aren't >> stacked either. > >Hm. Not worth ditching the idea of Token Stacking if we're going to >try and play this in real life? You can't guarantee that everyone >will have stackable Tokens available, after all (I'd probably use >glass beads, myself). And I always found Stacking a bit dull, anyway; >it was only really the expensive Tokens (and cheerful rule abuse) >that made it worthwhile. I'd rather see Stacking killed off, maybe >keeping the amusing "Gold Rush" Action as a "put a Gold Rush counter >on a random Station; if a Player moves to a Station with a Gold Rush >counter, they gain two Golds" thing. Well, I've got stackable Tokens in my set, enough for a reasonable amount of Players. I use colored plastic Bingo chips (although I may make some wooden ones later on). I quite like Token Stacking, I think it really adds something to the game, deciding where to put them, and planning routes that allow you to pick them up later, and so forth. And all the various Actions concerning them - Shunting them and Toppling them and Straddling and so forth... and being able to put Tokens on particular Stations seems to be a fundamental part of Regular MC. What I really want to know, Kevan (and Paul and Ole and everyone else), is what's your take on the Silvers/No Silvers thing Snow and I've been going back and forth on? cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Tue Jun 27 13:20:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6054 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2000 20:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 27 Jun 2000 20:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Jun 2000 20:07:41 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.2] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1370qv-0000SB-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:16:57 +0100 Message-ID: <002b01bfe06c$2363dc20$02877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: Horizontal complexity Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:14:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I've just been thinking about the current ruleset; trying to get a general overview of the objectives and how it works. I discovered that there isn't any general description of what you have to do to win (other than get 3 golds and go to MC). I can't decide whether this is good or bad, but it did raise some other points while I was thinking. 1) One of the main problems with the current ruleset is that it has an awful lot of "horizontal complexity" and not much "vertical complexity". By which I mean there are a lot of different things in the game, but most of them are only small, underused, even half-finished things. Charge is the canonical example of this. It's a great idea, but once the general concept of how a player's charge varies was worked out nothing was done with it. It's just a number one has to calculate during ones turn. 2) The object of the game is really "get 3 golds", not "land on MC". In itself this is acceptable though not really desirable. But bellow the gold level the game becomes unfocused, which implies to me that we have a game centred around getting golds not landing on MC. That probably doesn't make sense, but I think how to put it clearer right now. -- Snow I invented chronological order. From riffraff@n... Tue Jun 27 14:41:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14840 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2000 21:26:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 27 Jun 2000 21:26:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Jun 2000 21:26:53 -0000 Received: from [24.95.46.99] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA01578 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:26:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:31:19 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Horizontal complexity X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >I've just been thinking about the current ruleset; trying to get a >general overview of the objectives and how it works. I discovered that >there isn't any general description of what you have to do to win >(other than get 3 golds and go to MC). I can't decide whether this is >good or bad, but it did raise some other points while I was thinking. > >1) One of the main problems with the current ruleset is that it has an >awful lot of "horizontal complexity" and not much "vertical >complexity". By which I mean there are a lot of different things in >the game, but most of them are only small, underused, even >half-finished things. > >Charge is the canonical example of this. It's a great idea, but once >the general concept of how a player's charge varies was worked out >nothing was done with it. It's just a number one has to calculate >during ones turn. Well, hopefully we can work that out in the new ruleset. This time, instead of an idea living or dying on the basis of a single proposal and vote, we can take the time to discuss it and come up with much fuller workings before we implement it. > >2) The object of the game is really "get 3 golds", not "land on MC". >In itself this is acceptable though not really desirable. But bellow >the gold level the game becomes unfocused, which implies to me that we >have a game centred around getting golds not landing on MC. That >probably doesn't make sense, but I think how to put it clearer right >now. Well, it is possible to get 3 Golds _without_ winning, but I know what you mean. It doesn't (didn't) often happen that someone would get 3 Golds and then have to fight a concerted battle to get to MC - usually they'd get there the same turn, or soon after. The challenge of the game is getting the Golds in the first place. I can't really think of any way around it, though. In any case, does it really make a difference? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Tue Jun 27 22:45:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7434 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2000 05:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Jun 2000 05:45:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 05:45:33 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id PAA25796; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:45:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma025717; Wed, 28 Jun 00 15:45:17 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:45:17 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Horizontal complexity Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:45:15 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Wayper, Paul" On Wednesday, June 28, 2000 5:14 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > 1) One of the main problems with the current ruleset is that it has an > awful lot of "horizontal complexity" and not much "vertical > complexity". By which I mean there are a lot of different things in > the game, but most of them are only small, underused, even > half-finished things. Absolutely. But this is not necessarily a fatal flaw. The horizontal complexity is a result of the breadth of MC play in the wild - there are lots of different gambits. The lack of vertical complexity is a result of this - we lack depth because people don't usually (get to) explain how they built up to their move over fifteen previous moves. The lack of depth is a good thing in a way. It means that you don't have to remember to prepare a lot for a move; this means that you can play after not looking at the game for two weeks because the game state, and hence your plans, are pretty much elucidated in the document itself. The fact that people haven't built amazingly vertically complex structures is, to my mind, simply a reflection of the fact that each idea works as well as it needs to. We do have examples of deep complexity - shunting, for example. If we had a lot of depth then this would make things an order of magnitude more complex; and it would also make it a lot harder for new people to play. However, a lack of breadth is more of a problem; look at the attempt at Baker Street for an example of a very simple game which was ultimately (IMNSHO) flawed by having only one way of winning. I think I've had a couple of proposals rejected because they made the game more vertically complex. > 2) The object of the game is really "get 3 golds", not "land on MC". > In itself this is acceptable though not really desirable. But bellow > the gold level the game becomes unfocused, which implies to me that we > have a game centred around getting golds not landing on MC. That > probably doesn't make sense, but I think how to put it clearer right > now. Well, I see what you mean, but again I don't consider this a problem. There needs to be a way to govern winning, and in most games you don't win in a single move - you win by gradually accruing the things you need to win. The "land on MC" side links in nicely to the tactical map situation - even if someone's got three golds, winning is not necessarily a foregone conclusion. My attitude to the rest of the list's actions is that you're attempting to take a working grandfather clock and make a sundial out of it. You're working with a very complex thing, in which the pieces all fit together quite well (albeit not perfectly) and make with fewer parts and a slightly diffferent function. To my mind the most likely course of action is that you will bash about an ever-increasingly-lobotomised ruleset, then throw the whole unworkable mess out and start again from scratch. Because to my mind the real problem with MC at the moment is that we aren't playing. Everyone's pleading that they can't find the time to actually play, and yet you're attempting to put together a construct which will have very little testing until you've actually hammered it together. It's like constructing a program by writing everything first and not testing until everything is complete. You're inevitably going to hit bugs, which will make people even more apathetic about playing, but you've got no real structure in which to implement solutions. I have always considered the nomic to be a good solution to the problem of people collaborating to build up a set of rules. I think MN has worked particularly well because proposals generally keep to the level of experience and understanding of the players - proposals that are seen as too complex or too simple usually fail. It also means you have a ruleset at all stages of play - show me a ruleset now from what you've been debating. Since my opinions, which I've basically stated before, have basically been ignored outright, passed over or criticised, I'm basically stating my point of view as a matter of record here. I'm quite interested to see what your work eventually produces, but since your aims are quite divergent from mine in this instance I see no common ground for my interaction. I'd rather leave you to peacefully sort out what you want than bang my head against the brick wall of your opposing preferences. Of course, if you feel I can contribute at some stage, please ask. I watch your progress with interest. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From snowl@s... Wed Jun 28 14:17:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32131 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2000 21:17:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Jun 2000 21:17:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 21:17:06 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.68] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 137PCg-000AOk-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:17:02 +0100 Message-ID: <003401bfe146$14007d80$44837ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: RE: Horizontal complexity Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:14:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > The lack of depth is a good thing in a way. It means that you don't have to > remember to prepare a lot for a move; this means that you can play after not > looking at the game for two weeks because the game state, and hence your > plans, are pretty much elucidated in the document itself. I'm not sure that players' plans being visable in the GSD is something to be considered good. > The fact that > people haven't built amazingly vertically complex structures is, to my mind, > simply a reflection of the fact that each idea works as well as it needs to. To me it suggests everyone was pulling in different directions. Even so, individual ideas working doesn't mean the whole thing together worked. > If we had a lot of depth then this would make things an order of magnitude > more complex; and it would also make it a lot harder for new people to play. I disagree with this. I can't see how having lots of different small rules is easier than fewer large ones. > I think I've had a > couple of proposals rejected because they made the game more vertically > complex. But did they make it more horizontally complex as well? > > 2) The object of the game is really "get 3 golds", not "land on MC > > Well, I see what you mean, but again I don't consider this a problem. There > needs to be a way to govern winning, and in most games you don't win in Agreed. > Since my opinions, which I've basically stated before, have basically been > ignored outright, passed over or criticised Speaking for myself I certainly haven't ignored anything you've said. If I criticised your comments it was because I didn't agree with them. > I'm quite interested to see what your > work eventually produces, but since your aims are quite divergent from mine > in this instance I see no common ground for my interaction. I'd rather > leave you to peacefully sort out what you want than bang my head against the > brick wall of your opposing preferences. > > Of course, if you feel I can contribute at some stage, please ask. Riff has twice asked for other peoples' views on the Silver issue, once specifically using your name. I also would like to know what you think. This is a open discussion, you don't need an invite. -- Snow I invented the colour orange. From riffraff@n... Wed Jun 28 14:55:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27743 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2000 21:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Jun 2000 21:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 21:55:55 -0000 Received: from [24.95.46.99] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA06460 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:55:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:00:26 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Horizontal complexity X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> The lack of depth is a good thing in a way. It means that you don't >have to >> remember to prepare a lot for a move; this means that you can play >after not >> looking at the game for two weeks because the game state, and hence >your >> plans, are pretty much elucidated in the document itself. > >I'm not sure that players' plans being visable in the GSD is something >to be considered good. Well, if I grok Paul's meaning, it's not so much eir plans as a record of what ey've done, from which you can attempt to deduce eir plans. Right? > >> The fact that >> people haven't built amazingly vertically complex structures is, to >my mind, >> simply a reflection of the fact that each idea works as well as it >needs to. > >To me it suggests everyone was pulling in different directions. Even >so, individual ideas working doesn't mean the whole thing together >worked. True... I think that's pretty much why we started the new ruleset, really. > >> If we had a lot of depth then this would make things an order of >magnitude >> more complex; and it would also make it a lot harder for new people >to play. > >I disagree with this. I can't see how having lots of different small >rules is easier than fewer large ones. Well, most of the small rules were simply different Actions... so you didn't lose much if you forgot them or didn't understand them. I do agree to a point, but I like having lots of different Actions because of the diversity. And I want to keep the ultra-complex vibe of Original MC. >> Since my opinions, which I've basically stated before, have >basically been >> ignored outright, passed over or criticised > >Speaking for myself I certainly haven't ignored anything you've said. >If I criticised your comments it was because I didn't agree with them. Ditto... I've got a very poor memory (some would say notoriously so), but I don't recall any particular suggestions or commentary from you (Paul) since we started the new ruleset, except for wanting to get rid of the RPG aspects, which I whole-heartedly agreed with. Not to seem wossname, please correct me if I'm wrong. :) > >> I'm quite interested to see what your >> work eventually produces, but since your aims are quite divergent >from mine >> in this instance I see no common ground for my interaction. I'd >rather >> leave you to peacefully sort out what you want than bang my head >against the >> brick wall of your opposing preferences. >> >> Of course, if you feel I can contribute at some stage, please ask. > >Riff has twice asked for other peoples' views on the Silver issue, >once specifically using your name. I also would like to know what you >think. This is a open discussion, you don't need an invite. Please! I particularly want to get some other views on the Silver issue, because it appears that Snow and I aren't going to reach an agreement on our own. And anyway, I don't want it to be just the two of us doing this; this game's supposed to be for us all. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From WayperP@p... Wed Jun 28 17:40:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15157 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2000 00:40:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jun 2000 00:40:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2000 00:39:58 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA02548; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma002430; Thu, 29 Jun 00 10:39:29 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:29 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: Re: RE: Horizontal complexity Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:27 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Wayper, Paul" Replying to Snow and Riff's comments in one. On Thursday, June 29, 2000 9:00 AM, riffraff@n... [SMTP:riffraff@n...] wrote: > >I'm not sure that players' plans being visable in the GSD is something > >to be considered good. > > Well, if I grok Paul's meaning, it's not so much eir plans as a record of > what ey've done, from which you can attempt to deduce eir plans. Right? Basically, yeah. It's impossible to hide your intent completely, since we're assumed to all be wanting to win. So from the premise that the person is angling for golds, you can deduce a fair bit from what they're doing at the time. This doesn't mean that you're setting your plans out for all to see, it just means that there are only so many courses of action that you can take. > >To me it suggests everyone was pulling in different directions. Even > >so, individual ideas working doesn't mean the whole thing together > >worked. > > True... I think that's pretty much why we started the new ruleset, really. OK, let me clarify something here. To my mind, the Action system is a vertically complex thing. At the top you have the idea that actions are formatted in certain ways, and can be played at certain times during the move. Below that you've got general classes of actions - Singular actions, Token Exchange, Purchasing, Aggressive, Defensive, Neutral, Translocation, etc. Below this you have groups of actions - Aggressive actions include all the things you can do with Clamps, for example - but Clamps also have a defensive Action (removing the clamp). Each of these layers has an effect, in-game or not - Singular actions can only be played immediately after a move, clamping actions all have a certain interaction with a particular clamp, aggressive actions usually involve a red token. The fact that each layer adds its own particular complexity to the meaning of the action is what gives you vertical complexity. We have a lot of horizontal complexity, since as Riff says there are a swagload of individual actions you can do each turn. Likewise, we have horizontal complexity in the system of timing - you can only fit so many things in an hour, which governs your choice of actions without having to necessarily structure what you do. Another way of looking at this is how you add things. When you add something and it broadens a level, then you've added horizontal complexity; adding Ghost Stations to the map, for instance. When you add something and it creates a new level, that's vertical complexity; for example, adding a new type of actions called Translocation actions which move your piece without it passing along a Line. So; Snow's statement still stands - we have vertical complexity and horizontal complexity. From hereon in, I'll use breadth and depth for those two terms to save my typing. The point I'm trying to make with this is that MC, as played on !York and Outer Space, is a very broad game with little depth. MN, OTOH, is a deep game because it needs to be structured - but it has a fair bit of breadth too. Games are all relatively 'deep' - you need a structure to fit rules into and to order things hierarchially. I think the thing that really confuses people and makes a game difficult to play is /disproportional/ breadth or depth. I don't think MN was that. Sure, there were a couple of things that needed to be overhauled - I think one of them was the way moves were performed. But my sustained opinion is that the way to do this is by proposals, not by stopping progress entirely. > >I disagree with this. I can't see how having lots of different small > >rules is easier than fewer large ones. > > Well, most of the small rules were simply different Actions... so you > didn't lose much if you forgot them or didn't understand them. I do > agree > to a point, but I like having lots of different Actions because of the > diversity. And I want to keep the ultra-complex vibe of Original MC. My point precisely. The rules of Othello are simpler than the rules of Monopoly. Both are interesting games in their own right. The small rules ultimately have to fit in a larger structure, but there's no reason to limit the number of rules per 'layer' just to satisfy some sense of deep structure. > >Speaking for myself I certainly haven't ignored anything you've said. > >If I criticised your comments it was because I didn't agree with them. > > Ditto... I've got a very poor memory (some would say notoriously so), but I > don't recall any particular suggestions or commentary from you (Paul) since > we started the new ruleset, except for wanting to get rid of the RPG > aspects, which I whole-heartedly agreed with. Not to seem wossname, > please correct me if I'm wrong. :) Well, I sent a number of fairly lengthy (ooh, from me, how surprising!) mails about abandoning the nomic process and keeping that alive. And perhaps if anything the general apathy level - which is the same as what I've got from my proposals: little comment, little suggestion for improvement, just outright against voting and silence - is what's putting me off. No-one seems to find any inspiration or interest in my ideas, they just keep pottering on with their own. Who knows - maybe I'm guilty of my own criticism. Do you think so? > >Riff has twice asked for other peoples' views on the Silver issue, > >once specifically using your name. I also would like to know what you > >think. This is a open discussion, you don't need an invite. > > Please! I particularly want to get some other views on the Silver issue, > because it appears that Snow and I aren't going to reach an agreement on > our own. And anyway, I don't want it to be just the two of us doing this; As to Silvers, I would say that they're pretty traditional by now and they don't add much extra complexity to the game - rather, they add a nice extra level of strategy - so they should stay. To come at the idea completely afresh, why don't we start with the Volume 0 rules and nothing in the other Volumes, and Propose things from there. Each person takes on a certain aspect and tries to propose a good logical structure, and we vote, discuss and amend from there. The main change I would make is that the Nomic Week is actually a Nomic Month, to give people time to get their ideas fully collected. What do you think of that? Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Wed Jun 28 21:27:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4324 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2000 04:27:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jun 2000 04:27:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2000 04:27:05 -0000 Received: from [24.95.46.99] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA00430 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:26:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:31:33 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: RE: MN: Re: RE: Horizontal complexity X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... Gosh, Paul - I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Great minds, eh? ;) >Well, I sent a number of fairly lengthy (ooh, from me, how surprising!) >mails about abandoning the nomic process and keeping that alive. And >perhaps if anything the general apathy level - which is the same as what >I've got from my proposals: little comment, little suggestion for >improvement, just outright against voting and silence - is what's putting me >off. No-one seems to find any inspiration or interest in my ideas, they >just keep pottering on with their own. > >Who knows - maybe I'm guilty of my own criticism. Do you think so? Well, as to the MN system we had, it certainly wasn't very conducive to discussion. Proposals sent in blindly, we receive a large list of them, and then vote anonymously, with no discussion or amendments during or afterwards. The tendency (at least for me) was to vote "Sure, why not?" or "Nah." rather than actually For or Against. We never got to explore the possibilities of the ideas. After MN and before the current process, it was pretty chaotic. I think Snow and I jumped in and started the current discussions and decisions just to get the productivity ball rolling; we really didn't seem to be going anywhere otherwise. I do remember now that you suggested a fourth vote of 'Delay' or 'Discuss', or something like that, which I thought was a good idea. >To come at the idea completely afresh, why don't we start with the Volume 0 >rules and nothing in the other Volumes, and Propose things from there. Each >person takes on a certain aspect and tries to propose a good logical >structure, and we vote, discuss and amend from there. The main change I >would make is that the Nomic Week is actually a Nomic Month, to give people >time to get their ideas fully collected. > >What do you think of that? That's sort of what I was thinking, except that I think we should start with a very basic core ruleset, consisting only of how movement works, how tokens work, and some very basic actions (i.e. Blocking, Shunting, and some alternate way to get Golds other than collecting Bronzes and Silvers), which would be developed via discussion and consensus (or as near-to as possible) rather than via the proposal and voting system. This way, we have a firm foundation of fundamental rules that we can all agree on, on which to build more elaborately through Proposals and Voting. The first set would simply be The Basic Rules, and then the first set of additions would be, say, The IMCS 1922 Fairfax Amendments. Followed by the 1929 Lancashire Revisions, the following month. And so on. Thus newbies can be trained on the Basic Rules, and add revisions in order as they get the hang of it. This would also allow us to choose games with rules only up to a certain revision. Or even "all current rules except for 1945 Dunlop". Tres MC. :) I definately think we should do away with all the automated Proposing and Voting, though. Make all your Proposals on-list, as you think of them. We discuss them openly and the Proposer is free to add or change the Proposal according to comments and discussion until we have a dozen or so good Proposals to vote on, and then we vote and compile the next IMCS Revision. >> >Riff has twice asked for other peoples' views on the Silver issue, >> >once specifically using your name. I also would like to know what you >> >think. This is a open discussion, you don't need an invite. >> >> Please! I particularly want to get some other views on the Silver issue, >> because it appears that Snow and I aren't going to reach an agreement on >> our own. And anyway, I don't want it to be just the two of us doing this; > >As to Silvers, I would say that they're pretty traditional by now and they >don't add much extra complexity to the game - rather, they add a nice extra >level of strategy - so they should stay. Yup, that about sums it up IMO. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From kevan@s... Thu Jun 29 01:31:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32500 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2000 08:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jun 2000 08:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c3.egroups.com) (10.1.10.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2000 08:31:55 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.68] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jun 2000 08:31:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:31:46 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Silvers Message-ID: <8jf1hi+mdne@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 961 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Please! I particularly want to get some other views on the Silver issue, > because it appears that Snow and I aren't going to reach an agreement on > our own. And anyway, I don't want it to be just the two of us doing this; > this game's supposed to be for us all. Forgive my silence. I think the existence of Silvers is a fairly good thing, seeming an obvious middle ground between Bronzes and Golds, but that they're spent on "extra-powerful Actions" seems a bit vague, particularly when the other Token colours are so neatly defined. Maybe "Mind the Gap" should cost one Blue and one Silver, or whatever. (Was Gapminding a Silver Action? I can't seem to get to the MN site.) I think I'd be just as happy if such an Action cost three Blue, though. Do we really want a generic "powerful" Token, when Token quantity already signifies an Action's strength? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Am I still ill?" From paulway@e... Thu Jun 29 15:29:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14487 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2000 22:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jun 2000 22:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bne003m.webcentral.com.au) (202.139.235.99) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2000 22:29:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 5511 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2000 20:42:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scorch) (203.147.163.216) by horizon3.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 29 Jun 2000 20:42:38 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000629233201.007b9b10@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:32:01 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: New ruleset idea Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 People, I'm working on a new ruleset, following some thoughts I had about this on the way home. (Trying to be proactive rather than just complaining as I feel I have been up until now). My first idea is that "Proposals" take the form of individual emails that are maintained by the proposer emself (i.e. they take care of posting out any revisions). A Proposal automatically passes if it's got everyone's For vote, and if those votes are older than a day or so (to allow for the idea of the proposer soliciting votes for a harmless proposal and then modifying it just before sending in their own vote). The whole thing is looking fundamentally different from MN as it started out. Yes, we still have the rule numbers and stuff, but I'm not trying to define everything as rigidly - there's nothing on Nomic Weeks (yet), there's no need (from the MN perspective) to have Players (they will be needed in the MC side, but then again a person can play without having to contribute to the ruleset...), and the Speaker has few(er) duties. I'll let you know more when I'm not quite so tired and I have a bit more free time to nut things out. Have fun, Paul (from his new address) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOVrDMctA22MsBS7iEQL1BACg543b6Et7UfQmmSSz/HblaPLt6AYAn1Ej QAkSZ+2HsWORzW+T4vhO7/fo =/PiW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Fri Jun 30 11:38:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10979 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2000 18:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jun 2000 18:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jun 2000 18:38:41 -0000 Received: from [24.95.46.99] (dhcp9546099.columbus.rr.com [24.95.46.99]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA17400 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:38:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:43:13 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: New ruleset idea X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >I'll let you know more when I'm not quite so tired and I have a bit >more free time to nut things out. > Sounds interesting... I'll look forward to seeing it when I get back from vacation on the 9th. Don't make any important decisions without me! :) Off to the Emerald Isle, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Fri Jun 30 12:51:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14448 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2000 19:51:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jun 2000 19:51:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jun 2000 19:51:24 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.178] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1386os-000NDS-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:51:23 +0100 Message-ID: <00fa01bfe2cc$74c163a0$b2877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <3.0.6.32.20000629233201.007b9b10@p...> Subject: Re: New ruleset idea Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:47:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > My first idea is that "Proposals" take the form of individual emails > that are maintained by the proposer emself (i.e. they take care of > posting out any revisions). A Proposal automatically passes if it's > got everyone's For vote, and if those votes are older than a day or > so (to allow for the idea of the proposer soliciting votes for a > harmless proposal and then modifying it just before sending in their > own vote). You mean a fast-track nomic system. Where have I heard that idea before? Oh yes, it's what I suggested 6 weeks ago, but everyone else said either "No, use concensus" or "No, use the current system". That said, I've been suprised at how well the concensus system has worked so far (for moving anyway) and don't really want to waste time thinking about alternatives until it breaks. At the minimum I think we should get the basic framework mapped out, before we bring in such a system. Even then the concensus system might be enough. > The whole thing is looking fundamentally different from MN as it > started out. Yes, we still have the rule numbers and stuff, but I'm > not trying to define everything as rigidly - there's nothing on Nomic > Weeks (yet), there's no need (from the MN perspective) to have > Players (they will be needed in the MC side, but then again a person > can play without having to contribute to the ruleset...), and the > Speaker has few(er) duties. I think you'd need "Players" in the Nomic side, so you know when everyone had voted FOR (or not), but they needn't be the same as "Players" on the game side. -- Snow Does anyone here believe that someone else has read one of their emails? Or are we all just talking to ourselves? From snowl@s... Fri Jun 30 12:51:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19206 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2000 19:51:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jun 2000 19:51:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jun 2000 19:51:25 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.178] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1386ou-000NDS-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:51:24 +0100 Message-ID: <00fb01bfe2cc$7593f5e0$b2877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:48:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > What I really want to know, Kevan (and Paul and Ole and everyone else), is > what's your take on the Silvers/No Silvers thing Snow and I've been going > back and forth on? OK, I'm the only person who cares that Silvers are redundant, so let's keep them. If I can't kill the disease I'll have a go at the symptons (Token exchanging) instead. > >> Token Bonuses for Moves: > >> (# of Int. passes through, and # of Lines from an Int. landed on) > >> > >> 2 Int. - 1 Br > >> 3 - 1 Br, 1 Bu > >> 4 - 1 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd > >> 5 - 2 Br, 1 Bu, 1 Rd > >> 6 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 1 Rd > >> 7 - 2 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd > >> 8 - 3 Br, 2 Bu, 2 Rd > > > >Fearsome. Wouldn't it be easier to deal with on a "one Token of any > >Colour if you land on an Interchange, maybe two if it's a hefty one > >like Bank or Baker Street", particularly in real life play? Have I > >said this before? I don't think moving about the board is really very challenging. I would rather introduce a bit of route planning skills: Station Landed on Bonus ============ ==== Termini (zone 3/4/5) Br Interchange Rd Green Gr Mainline Bu Zone x x Bl Further you can't claim for the same station twice in 3 (say) Turns. You can still land on the station, just not get the bonus. You can also get more than 1 bonus per Turn (Green Park is +Gr, +Rd, +Bl) . I would still cap Blacks at, say, 10. > >> Stacking: I don't think Token Stacking needs to be changed from the > > > >Hm. Not worth ditching the idea of Token Stacking if we're going to > >try and play this in real life? Well if we're going to have so many Tokens we should make good use of them. Token stacks seem like a suitable way to do that, but they will have to do something better than the current implementation. IMHO the current system is barely any more useful than charge. I don't think Players should normally be able to pick up Tokens off a Stack. Nor do I think that Actions paid for should go onto Stacks. So Tokens would have to be explicitly placed on Stations. You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for 3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same Turn. Here are some examples off the top of my head: 1) If a Plant station contains a Green Token, you can make a Silver (it's just an example it doesn't have to make sense). 2) If an Interchange station contains 3 black tokens then you can Wild/Teleport to anywhere on the map. 3) If a Normal (non-interchange/non-BR) station contains 3 blacks you can Teleport anywhere on the line. 4) If a Normal Station contains 2 reds you can do something foul to anyone on the line. 5) If Bank has 5 Bronze you get a Silver. 6) If a Home Station has 3 reds and a black you can move the owning player's piece anywhere on the board. Etc..... Golds can be made via Silvers on Termini or some other suitably difficult means. -- Snow I invented under-water. From WayperP@p... Sun Jul 02 21:09:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23236 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2000 04:09:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jul 2000 04:09:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2000 04:09:21 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id OAA12055; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:09:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma011958; Mon, 3 Jul 00 14:08:53 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:08:53 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:08:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Saturday, July 01, 2000 5:49 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > I don't think moving about the board is really very challenging. I > would rather introduce a bit of route planning skills: I'm with you 100% on this. My own personal opinion is that the way to curb the 'LV at max and vary the route to achieve your destination' effect is to make each interchange you go through take a penalty. My preferred currency paid here is time - it's real world (you usually end up spending at least five minutes waiting for the next train) and time can't be 'banked' (in the same way as you can save up tokens). I don't like the idea of eradicating time from the equation and replacing it with another thing - 'action cost points', black tokens, or whatever. Yes, it's 'removing complexity', but to my mind it's also introducing possible ways to abuse the rules - for instance, by someone saving up a ludicrous amount of black tokens and then winning in one turn by doing everything at once. I like your table, though - it makes a bit more sense than the one we currently have and could promote more strategic moving. I'd still like to see token running come back, but that's just me. > You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is > played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for > 3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same > Turn. I think I'm with you here. It sounds good, and is also starting to head toward a concept of Manoeuvres that could be fun. What if that general framework could be extended to encompass trickier things than just moving to a station, placing the tokens and performing the action - say, moving from one station to another passing through a third. Or how about moving from one station to another _without_ going through a third? Or even forming certain patterns in tokens in a stack (e.g. Red Blue Red Blue), or a particular formation (putting a black token on all Holy stations in zone 1)? I'm just sort of running with a concept here, because I think you've got a great start. Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW who has actually disproven the existence of tablet-form asparagus. From snowl@s... Mon Jul 03 04:28:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12444 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2000 11:28:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jul 2000 11:28:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2000 11:28:36 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.130] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1394Ow-0002v4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:28:35 +0100 Message-ID: <002701bfe4e1$ad1b8660$824b08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:11:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > On Saturday, July 01, 2000 5:49 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > > I don't think moving about the board is really very challenging. I > > would rather introduce a bit of route planning skills: > > I'm with you 100% on this. > > My own personal opinion is that the way to curb the 'LV at max and vary the > route to achieve your destination' effect is to make each interchange you go > through take a penalty. My preferred currency paid here is time Time was also my first choice, but we had this discussion 3 weeks ago. Nothing is set in stone, but let's wait until we have a draft ruleset before we change what we have already. I do like the interchange penalty idea though. > I don't like the idea of eradicating time from the equation and replacing it > with another thing - 'action cost points', black tokens, or whatever. Yes, > it's 'removing complexity', but to my mind it's also introducing possible > ways to abuse the rules - for instance, by someone saving up a ludicrous > amount of black tokens and then winning in one turn by doing everything at > once. That's why I want a 10 black limit. On the other hand I do like the current system _because_ it removes time from the equation. > I like your table, though - it makes a bit more sense than the one we > currently have and could promote more strategic moving. I'd still like to > see token running come back, but that's just me. If whatever moving system we use keeps moves relativly short then I think Token running could be viable. > > You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is > > played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for > > 3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same > > Turn. > > I think I'm with you here. It sounds good, and is also starting to head > toward a concept of Manoeuvres that could be fun. What if that general > framework could be extended to encompass trickier things than just moving to > a station, placing the tokens and performing the action - say, moving from > one station to another passing through a third. Or how about moving from > one station to another _without_ going through a third? I would certainly like to see lots of stuff like this in the game, provided that they "made sense" rather than just being arbitrary formations. > Or even forming > certain patterns in tokens in a stack (e.g. Red Blue Red Blue), or a > particular formation (putting a black token on all Holy stations in zone 1)? The trouble with patterns is that any pattern is arbitrary. Red, Blue, Red, Blue doesn't mean anything. On the other hand putting a Blue on every holy station to stop a player being targetted does "make sense". There is the problem with multi-station stacks: others can easily steal Actions. If Garden places a Blue on all zone 1 holy stations he can't make the Action until his next Turn, by then some other player is likly to be able to reach one of the zone 1 holy stations and steal the Action. -- Snow I invented gravity. From WayperP@p... Mon Jul 03 15:58:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10373 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2000 22:58:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jul 2000 22:58:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2000 22:58:53 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id IAA12164; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:58:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012037; Tue, 4 Jul 00 08:58:32 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:58:32 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Re: New ruleset idea Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:58:27 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:47 AM, Snow [SMTP:snowl@s...] wrote: > You mean a fast-track nomic system. Where have I heard that idea > before? Oh yes, it's what I suggested 6 weeks ago, but everyone else > said either "No, use concensus" or "No, use the current system". *shrugs* Well, I didn't claim it was a new idea. The feature that I'm looking for here is that each proposal is maintained and updated by its proposer. Only once it's got all the votes can it be passed, but it never actually gets 'voted against', just either forgotten or discarded by the proposer. This not only keeps those pots boiling longer and encourages people to talk things out rather than just cancelling an idea, but also lifts the burden of collecting and distributing the proposals and votes and such from the Speaker's shoulders. > I think you'd need "Players" in the Nomic side, so you know when > everyone had voted FOR (or not), but they needn't be the same as > "Players" on the game side. You have a point there. Should only registered Players be allowed to Vote? Should we require this for Proposing as well? What do people think? > Does anyone here believe that someone else has read one of their > emails? Or are we all just talking to ourselves? Well, at the moment it seems to just be you, me and Riff. Dunx is getting busy at work again, and I wouldn't have a clue about Kevan - he hasn't ever written back to me. Have fun, Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S ITO Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From dunx@d... Mon Jul 03 23:25:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21520 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 06:25:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 06:25:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tele-post-20.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.20) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 06:25:54 -0000 Received: from lazarus.demon.co.uk ([158.152.31.180] helo=daoloth) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 139M9Z-000Exx-0K for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:25:53 +0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: RE: Re: New ruleset idea Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 07:20:06 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00070407230600.00408@daoloth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 03 Jul 2000, you wrote: > > Does anyone here believe that someone else has read one of their > > emails? Or are we all just talking to ourselves? > > Well, at the moment it seems to just be you, me and Riff. Dunx is getting > busy at work again, and I wouldn't have a clue about Kevan - he hasn't ever > written back to me. I'm still reading, just not in a position to contribute at the moment. An impressive effort so far, though. -- Dunx Ceci n'est pas un .sig From paulway@e... Tue Jul 04 00:45:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14771 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 07:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 07:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bne005m.server-mail.com) (202.139.234.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 07:45:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 30917 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 07:45:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scorch) (203.147.160.56) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 07:45:35 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000704071541.007ea100@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:15:41 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses In-Reply-To: <002701bfe4e1$ad1b8660$824b08c3@snow> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:11 PM 3/07/2000 +0100, you wrote: >On the other hand I do like the current system _because_ it removes >time from the equation. I still don't understand why. Time (e.g. "10:45AM") sums up a lot of things - closure-states of stations and lines, how much more time you have in this day, peak hours - that can't really be well represented by tokens or what-have-you. And it means you don't have to keep track of black tokens so ferociously. >If whatever moving system we use keeps moves relativly short then I >think Token running could be viable. I think you're looking at the wrong problem here. The problem is not _long_ moves. It's being able to use a high LV to move to anywhere you want - even close by stations - by using a roundabout route. This is why an interchange time penalty makes so much sense to me. It doesn't limit movement in the outer zones, but stops people doing Tottenham Court Road to Warren Street with a LV of 10. >I would certainly like to see lots of stuff like this in the game, >provided that they "made sense" rather than just being arbitrary >formations. Oh, true. But let's not also forget that this is MC - things don't always make sense. What exactly is Knip, for example. >The trouble with patterns is that any pattern is arbitrary. Red, >Blue, Red, Blue doesn't mean anything. On the other hand putting a >Blue on every holy station to stop a player being targetted does >"make sense". I'm with you there. But I'm also thinking certain patterns are artistic and can be rewarded as such. Rainbows, long stacks with one colour, sandwiches, licorice allsorts, whatever. >There is the problem with multi-station stacks: others can easily >steal Actions. If Garden places a Blue on all zone 1 holy stations >he can't make the Action until his next Turn, by then some other >player is likly to be able to reach one of the zone 1 holy stations >and steal the Action. True. Which is why I don't think that's a good model. Personally I think the 'current' MN model - playing Actions in a certain time - has no big flaws compared to the other systems being bandied about here. Have fun, -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOWB13ctA22MsBS7iEQL5dwCg0zcpuCKRP+W7RtiAZUW3rRgyS2sAoLPD kck45C2NnhGC2mMWO0fLPgIQ =xBAZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Tue Jul 04 01:48:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28046 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 08:48:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 08:48:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hh.egroups.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 08:48:32 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.100] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2000 08:48:32 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:48:27 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: New ruleset idea Message-ID: <8js8cr+ae5a@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2373 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > The feature that I'm looking for here is that each proposal is maintained > and updated by its proposer. Only once it's got all the votes can it be > passed, but it never actually gets 'voted against', just either forgotten or > discarded by the proposer. This not only keeps those pots boiling longer > and encourages people to talk things out rather than just cancelling an > idea, but also lifts the burden of collecting and distributing the proposals > and votes and such from the Speaker's shoulders. This seems too disparate a system, each Player pursuing their own (possibly overlapping) whims. At the end of the day, the Nomic system is generally quite bad when it comes to creating a readable ruleset - we really need a single "Scribe" to get the thing written in a consistent style and reasonably flowing sequence. (With other Players, naturally, pointing a finger at any typos or dodginess.) I think we need a Speaker (or at least a vague consensus) to keep discussions on-track, attempting to deal with game issues in turn, and the Scribe writing it down as we go, occasionally posting a "Right, this is what the 'Moving' section will look like - any objections?" message to the list. > > I think you'd need "Players" in the Nomic side, so you know when > > everyone had voted FOR (or not), but they needn't be the same as > > "Players" on the game side. > > You have a point there. Should only registered Players be allowed to Vote? > Should we require this for Proposing as well? What do people think? Making registration a requirement would let us all know where we stood, how many people were interested, and the rest, I think. A clear line between "Players" and (say) "Designers" wouldn't hurt, though. > Well, at the moment it seems to just be you, me and Riff. Dunx is getting > busy at work again, and I wouldn't have a clue about Kevan - he hasn't ever > written back to me. I've got rather less spare time than I used to have, I'm afraid. (I hope the "hasn't ever written back" doesn't refer to private email, though? Didn't I send you something a month or two ago?) Mostly I'm just nodding at the list traffic here; if anything particularly objectionable crops up, I'll take the time to say something. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "It's work, lovelife, miscellaneous." From palnatoke@g... Tue Jul 04 02:17:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29194 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 09:17:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 09:17:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 09:17:00 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p447-81.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.81]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e649Gwd20914 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 11:16:58 +0200 Message-ID: <010c01bfe598$8d565be0$74822fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: Subject: Re: RE: Re: New ruleset idea Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:45:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Paul (from his work addy) quoted Snow: : > Does anyone here believe that someone else has read one of their : > emails? Or are we all just talking to ourselves? :=20 : Well, at the moment it seems to just be you, me and Riff. Dunx is = getting : busy at work again, and I wouldn't have a clue about Kevan - he hasn't = ever : written back to me. :=20 I'm just talking to myself, too... Ole From palnatoke@g... Tue Jul 04 02:17:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31212 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 09:17:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 09:17:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 09:17:01 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p447-81.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.81]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e649H0d20917 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 11:17:00 +0200 Message-ID: <010d01bfe598$8e169ea0$74822fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000704071541.007ea100@p...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:55:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Paul wrote: : The problem is not _long_ moves. It's being able to use a high LV to : move to anywhere you want - even close by stations - by using a : roundabout route. This is why an interchange time penalty makes so : much sense to me. It doesn't limit movement in the outer zones, but : stops people doing Tottenham Court Road to Warren Street with a LV of : 10. See, had this been mentioned in MN, we would have created two new terms: = one for the shortest distance between two stations and another for the = ratio between shortest distance and travelled distance, and then we = would assign a penalty for making moves with a high ratio. :=20 : >I would certainly like to see lots of stuff like this in the game, : >provided that they "made sense" rather than just being arbitrary : >formations. :=20 : Oh, true. But let's not also forget that this is MC - things don't : always make sense. What exactly is Knip, for example. In Copanhagen, we have Knippelsbro, a bridge named after Hans Knip, who = was 'bromester' (bridge master or somesuch) from 1641. We do pronounce = the 'k', though, so it may be entirely unrelated... ... : Personally I : think the 'current' MN model - playing Actions in a certain time - : has no big flaws compared to the other systems being bandied about : here. I guess you are right, more or less. Ole -- Ole Andersen Br=F8ndby=F8ster, Denmark palnatoke@g... "The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." -- Mark Twain From scholarships@i... Tue Jul 04 14:04:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10711 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 21:04:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 21:04:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (209.50.244.143) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 21:04:05 -0000 Subject: Scholarships for Computer/IT Training for Teachers/Educators Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:07:47 Message-Id: <409.607514.411021@h...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Tuition-Free Computer and IT Training for Teachers/Educators Dear Teacher/Educator, To help the Nation's teachers and others in education to become computer-literate and/or computer professionals, the non-profit National Education Foundation CyberLearning, with the support of Microsoft and others, is offering the first 5,000 applicants full tuition scholarships of $2,000 to take any or all of the 400+ Internet-based online personal computing and computer professional courses. The high-quality, user-friendly courses are either self-study or instructor-led. They cover all levels and almost all topics, including Computer Basics, Internet Basics, Web Design Basics, Networking Basics, Programming Basics, A+, Network+, MCSE, CNE, Microsoft Office, MOUS, WordPerfect, Lotus, Operating Systems, Windows, Windows 2000, Linux, Unix, Networking, WAN, LAN, Programming, Java, C++, Visual Basics, Internet, Web Design, Web Applications, Web Master, E-commerce, Databases, Oracle and Cisco. To sign up, just visit www.cyberlearning.org, click on "Free IT Training," complete the application and pay a registration fee of $75. This $75 is your only cost, since the tuition is free for you. You can receive immediate access to all 400+ online courses, an online library of the latest 1,000+ computer/information technology books, instructor assistance, course-specific chat areas and round the clock technical support. Please feel free to forward this information to interested teachers, educators and others in education. If you do not wish to receive any further scholarship information from us, please reply with the message, "remove” in the Subject line. Thank you. The non-profit National Education Foundation (NEF) CyberLearning has provided tuition-free IT training to thousands of students, teachers and disadvantaged individuals. It has earned many distinctions including "The Ivy League of IT Training," "1995 Fairfax Human Rights Award Winner," and " A Leader in Bridging the Digital Divide." “You are helping to empower America. I salute you for your ongoing commitment to creating a better America,” --- President Clinton "This is an awesome opportunity." --- Washingtonjobs.com “Microsoft is pleased to play a part ... NEF can make a positive difference in the lives of a great number of individuals." --- Microsoft "I have found the CyberLearning online courses to be extremely easy and useful. I liked pre-course self-assessments and IT books online and available 24/7. The course screens were interactive and made me feel as if I was in the application itself. The site looks and feels very professional. The list of courses is huge. It includes something for almost everyone. I find this to be a very worthy cause." --- Ken Horowitz, IT Training coordinator From paulway@e... Tue Jul 04 14:33:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20549 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 21:33:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2000 21:33:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bne005m.server-mail.com) (202.139.234.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 21:33:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 804 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 21:32:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scorch) (203.147.162.37) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 21:32:59 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000705073153.007fdbd0@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 07:31:53 +1000 To: abuse@i... abuse@s... abuse@n... abuse@c... abuse@t... Subject: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 All: Recently I received a mail from Scholarships@i... on a mailing list I am a member of. It was not to do with anything concerned with the list, but rather was a completely inappropriate, useless and unasked-for advertisement for CyberLearning. IOIP displays extremely poor marketting ability in spamming by using email groups not related in any way to their market. Cyberlearning display extremely poor management skills for choosing such an inept advertising means. It should be noted that the most stupid and inflammatory thing IOIP has done here is in this paragraph from their spam: Please feel free to forward this information to interested teachers, educators and others in education. If you do not wish to receive any further scholarship information from us, please reply with the message, "remove” in the Subject line. Thank you. Firstly, as this was sent to an email group, any replies would have gone to the group rather than to the original poster. Secondly, opt-out marketing, as this is, shows extremely poor business knowledge and causes far more problems that it allegedly solves. Thirdly, as untrustworthy marketers are often known to use these 'remove' requests simply to collect working email addresses, use of 'remove' requests is a dangerous thing for the user to undertake. IOIP: You are directly responsible for this post. You should question the person responsible for targetting an email group completely unrelated to the topic of your advertisement. They have ruined whatever credibility your company might have had. SERVINT.NET: You provide connectivity to IOIP. Their actions are considered as spamming and they may violate your Acceptable Use Policy, as well as having damaged your reputation. I suggest you look into this and penalise them to the maximum extent possible. NETAXS.COM: You provide connectivity to SERVINT.NET. Likewise, your reputation has been tarnished by association. I suggest you keep this in mind when looking at SERVINT.NET's actions in future. CYBERLEARNING.COM: You are the product advertised in this post. You have shown extremely bad business sense in choosing to use a company that would use any form of email mass marketing to advertise your services. That they have chosen to advertise by using a forum completely unrelated to anything that might have to do with your product only makes things worse. I suggest you cancel your contract with IOIP and sue for damages to your reputation. TYCHO.NET: You provide connectivity for CYBERLEARNING.COM. We suggest you look into this matter for any breaches of your Acceptable Use Policy. This mail has also been BCC'd to the group in question. The headers and beginning of this mail were: From: Mailing-List: list l-nomic-d@egroups.com; contact l-nomic-d-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list l-nomic-d@egroups.com List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:07:47 Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Scholarships for Computer/IT Training for Teachers/Educators X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smv18.iname.net id RAA01869 Tuition-Free Computer and IT Training for Teachers/Educators Dear Teacher/Educator, To help the Nation's teachers and others in education to become computer-literate and/or computer professionals, the non-profit National Education Foundation CyberLearning, with the support of Microsoft and others, is offering the first 5,000 applicants full tuition scholarships of $2,000 to take any or all of the 400+ Internet-based online personal computing and computer professional courses. The high-quality, user-friendly courses are either self-study or instructor-led. They cover all levels and almost all topics, including Computer Basics, Internet Basics, Web Design Basics, Networking Basics, Programming Basics, A+, Network+, MCSE, CNE, Microsoft Office, MOUS, WordPerfect, Lotus, Operating Systems, Windows, Windows 2000, Linux, Unix, Networking, WAN, LAN, Programming, Java, C++, Visual Basics, Internet, Web Design, Web Applications, Web Master, E-commerce, Databases, Oracle and Cisco. To sign up, just visit www.cyberlearning.org, click on "Free IT Training," complete the application and pay a registration fee of $75. This $75 is your only cost, since the tuition is free for you. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOWHLE8tA22MsBS7iEQIzawCfTir7UC+dRruE0Ab20K8BLGzh1vgAnAxT p4rOdwYDp8r1deJBR9mC7qAV =DkXz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Wed Jul 05 04:59:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23614 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 11:59:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 11:59:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.91) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 11:59:14 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.95] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 2000 11:59:14 -0000 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:59:07 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning Message-ID: <8jv7ub+bp36@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000705073153.007fdbd0@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 330 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Recently I received a mail from Scholarships@i... on a mailing > list I am a member of. [...] Well done that man. Was this typed around the output of some cunning boilerplate spam-complaint generator, out of interest? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Throw your homework onto the fire." From paulway@e... Wed Jul 05 05:11:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20011 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 12:11:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 12:11:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO horizon2.webcentral.com.au) (202.139.235.196) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 12:11:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 31718 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 12:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scorch) (203.147.162.53) by horizon2.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 12:11:28 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000705220920.00811d20@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:09:20 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning In-Reply-To: <8jv7ub+bp36@eGroups.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000705073153.007fdbd0@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 11:59 AM 5/07/2000 -0000, you wrote: >Well done that man. Was this typed around the output of some cunning > boilerplate spam-complaint generator, out of interest? Not really - it was typed out of a knowledge (from a long and somewhat embittering membership of the SPAM-L list) of what to say, how to find out those responsible, and wielding the LARTing hammer in an appropriate fashion. I don't expect anything to come of it, but it's at least caused some trouble for somebody. If you have spam problems, ask me for solutions. Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOWKY0MtA22MsBS7iEQJOgACcCgjzVEmQQbHQwiz63ur3fdA45HQAmgOO 9adKrnp87iMO4IUTNzDob7f6 =0/bX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Wed Jul 05 05:26:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16923 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 12:26:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 12:26:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 12:26:02 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.117] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 2000 13:26:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:25:58 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning Message-ID: <8jv9gm+cf5i@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000705220920.00811d20@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 933 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Not really - it was typed out of a knowledge (from a long and > somewhat embittering membership of the SPAM-L list) of what to say, > how to find out those responsible, and wielding the LARTing hammer in > an appropriate fashion. I don't expect anything to come of it, but > it's at least caused some trouble for somebody. Jolly good. I just went for the "quickly replying, pretending to be really interested in a huge purchase, but wording it in a very obscure way" option, in the hope that somebody's time will be wasted writing back. From a free throwaway Webmail thing, naturellement. Whatever happened to those Web pages that take an email address and sign it up with all the spam mailing lists it can think of, incidentally? I couldn't seem to find any when I was searching the Web this morning. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "A desire to see this land all happy and nice." From paulway@e... Wed Jul 05 05:31:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18534 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 12:31:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 12:31:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bne005m.server-mail.com) (202.139.234.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 12:31:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 27257 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 12:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scorch) (203.147.162.53) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 12:31:29 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000705222750.007b13d0@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:27:50 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning In-Reply-To: <8jv9gm+cf5i@eGroups.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000705220920.00811d20@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:25 PM 5/07/2000 -0000, you wrote: >Whatever happened to those Web pages that take an email address and >sign it up with all the spam mailing lists it can think of, >incidentally? I couldn't seem to find any when I was searching the >Web this morning. Is your desire to nuke someone else's mailbox completely or to shield your mailbox from ever being chosen by a spammer as their target? Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOWKdJ8tA22MsBS7iEQKp2QCgo1PfV876AD15B2/X068T1kjt364AoO59 ffwVr6gx0VQYilixMPeLfne9 =ZhhM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From kevan@s... Wed Jul 05 05:51:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6481 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 12:51:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 12:51:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 12:51:15 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.33] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 2000 12:51:13 -0000 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:51:00 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning Message-ID: <8jvavk+aq8f@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000705222750.007b13d0@p...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1220 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Kevan " > Is your desire to nuke someone else's mailbox completely or to shield > your mailbox from ever being chosen by a spammer as their target? To demonstrate how annoying spam is, really, rather than to nuke. Forcing the lovely Cyberlearning people to at least change the enquiry email address they give out on their Web page, if their current one falls victim to a few spam lists. A shade more subtle than the easy option of mailbombing, which inconveniences others along the way. I've seen the Cyberlearning thing three times today; in my private email and on the Genomic mailing list, as well as here, and I'm being quite infuriated by it. And I've sat in office meetings where the boss has said "Hey, why don't we spam people?" - it usually takes an awful lot of bricks to beat sense into these people. None of our legal/logical arguments working, the other programmers and I were forced to write a script to send out junk mail - if just *one* person had responded dramatically, I could have nailed it to the boss's wall and hopefully killed that train of his thought for good. Heigh ho. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Captain, I'm... very annoyed with Uhura." From paulway@e... Wed Jul 05 06:02:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29411 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 13:02:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 13:02:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bne005m.server-mail.com) (202.139.234.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 13:02:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 9545 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 13:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scorch) (203.147.162.53) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 13:02:04 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000705230059.007d04f0@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:00:59 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: SPAM attempt by IOIP for Cyberlearning In-Reply-To: <8jvavk+aq8f@eGroups.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000705222750.007b13d0@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:51 PM 5/07/2000 -0000, you wrote: >To demonstrate how annoying spam is, really, rather than to nuke. >Forcing the lovely Cyberlearning people to at least change the >enquiry email address they give out on their Web page, if their >current one falls victim to a few spam lists. A shade more subtle >than the easy option of mailbombing, which inconveniences others >along the way. I prefer to LART the upstreams. There's usually a clause in their AUPs that suggests that spamming is bad. They're also responsible for fielding all the bounce messages, the flames, the mailbombs and the hacking attempts that go into a spam so clueless that it actually advertised its own site using its own name. (Believe me, some of the anti-detection stuff that I've seen in URLs makes you wonder what deviant mind thought it up). Besides, there's that vague feeling of being above their methods. >I've seen the Cyberlearning thing three times today; in my private >email and on the Genomic mailing list, as well as here, and I'm >being quite infuriated by it. And I've sat in office meetings where >the >boss has said "Hey, why don't we spam people?" - it usually takes an > awful lot of bricks to beat sense into these people. None of our >legal/logical arguments working, the other programmers and I were >forced to write a script to send out junk mail - if just *one* >person had responded dramatically, I could have nailed it to the >boss's wall and hopefully killed that train of his thought for >good. Maybe. I prefer to just stand up and say that spamming is proven to be more cost - in terms of the amount of negative press it can generate - than any trivial benefit you might get out of it. Banner ad clicks have gone down to 1 in ten million pages displayed, from what I've heard. People are becoming even more inured to advertising on the internet, to the stage that it's practically wallpaper. Anyway, whatever. Have fun, Paul, who's discovered GPF comics (www.gpf-comics.com) and is almost all the way through the archive... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOWKk7MtA22MsBS7iEQIUuwCfceRhJRjlyXPHgO50L9lIwcmGDqAAnj36 IlZks6R6AtAd9/8nBZjSdGKi =O5Jm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Wed Jul 05 17:15:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11516 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2000 00:15:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Jul 2000 00:15:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jul 2000 00:15:49 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id KAA29791; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:15:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma029605; Thu, 6 Jul 00 10:15:25 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <3JABM5FC>; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:15:25 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: Re: New ruleset idea Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:15:22 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Tuesday, July 04, 2000 6:48 PM, Kevan [SMTP:kevan@s...] wrote: > This seems too disparate a system, each Player pursuing their own > (possibly overlapping) whims. At the end of the day, the Nomic system > is generally quite bad when it comes to creating a readable ruleset - > we really need a single "Scribe" to get the thing written in a > consistent style and reasonably flowing sequence. (With other > Players, naturally, pointing a finger at any typos or dodginess.) I'm prepared to accept the possibility of occasionally having two or more overlapping proposals. I've been prepared in the past, and am prepared now, to abandon a proposal of my own in favour of someone else's better written idea. You can't deny the benefit of abandoning the Nomic system of proposals being thrown out if they don't immediately pass. At the moment, there's sort of vague talk about various concepts but no real evidence of physical rules. Having proposals that explicitly state the wording out there on the list being reviewed by everyone makes it look like we're actually progressing toward a goal. And while 'readable' can often mean 'full of loopholes', this too allows for revision by consultation via the list. > I think we need a Speaker (or at least a vague consensus) to keep > discussions on-track, attempting to deal with game issues in turn, > and the Scribe writing it down as we go, occasionally posting a > "Right, this is what the 'Moving' section will look like - any > objections?" message to the list. I agree, but I see those two as being the Speaker's roles - keeping the web files of the ruleset up to date and posting news of when they've been updated. If the Scribe isn't having to actually draft the rules this means they won't burn out. > Making registration a requirement would let us all know where we > stood, how many people were interested, and the rest, I think. A > clear line between "Players" and (say) "Designers" wouldn't hurt, > though. Well, as far as Voting is concerned it makes things easier. Dunno about the Designers idea - are you talking about Players being Players Of MC and Designers being Designers Of The Ruleset? > I've got rather less spare time than I used to have, I'm afraid. (I > hope the "hasn't ever written back" doesn't refer to private email, > though? Didn't I send you something a month or two ago?) Mostly I'm > just nodding at the list traffic here; if anything particularly > objectionable crops up, I'll take the time to say something. Ironic that you should say this in light of our recent discussions about Cyberlearning... :-) Have fun, -- Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From WayperP@p... Wed Jul 05 18:30:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16875 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2000 01:30:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Jul 2000 01:30:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au) (203.25.1.208) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jul 2000 01:30:04 -0000 Received: by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au; id LAA28537; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:29:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from aricrmntp001.dpi.qld.gov.au(147.132.69.28) by dpi-gw.dpi.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa28337; Thu, 6 Jul 00 11:29:36 +1000 Received: by ARICRMNTP001 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <3JABM6SA>; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:29:36 +1000 Message-ID: To: "'l-nomic-d@egroups.com'" Subject: RE: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:29:35 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Wayper, Paul" On Tuesday, July 04, 2000 6:55 PM, Ole Andersen [SMTP:palnatoke@g...] wrote: > See, had this been mentioned in MN, we would have created two new terms: > one for the shortest distance between two stations and another for the > ratio between shortest distance and travelled distance, and then we would > assign a penalty for making moves with a high ratio. To my mind that's an overly complex way of penalising long moves. I don't see a problem with calculating "([number of stations] * 2 + [number of line changes] * 5) rounded up to the nearest 5 minutes". I do have a problem with calculating "shortest distance", especially with the arguments that could result from determining which route is the shortest. For instance: If LVST is Maelberged, and I want to move from BNGR to MRGT, I might argue that my shortest route is MIEN, STGR, WTCH, SHDW, BANK, MRGT. But someone else might argue that if I'd expended a silver to un-Maelberg LVST then my shortest route would be two stations rather than six. What if the shortest route went through someone else's home station and I didn't want to pay the toll? Even if you solve all those problems, there's still the question of how you calculate the thing. To my mind it's a more complex equation, maybe even involving lookups on a chart (if you're assigning token penalties). And you've just introduced two new terms, where with timing the moves you don't introduce any new nomenclature. > In Copanhagen, we have Knippelsbro, a bridge named after Hans Knip, who > was 'bromester' (bridge master or somesuch) from 1641. We do pronounce > the 'k', though, so it may be entirely unrelated... Well, I've always pronounced Knip with a silent K. But the term is used in some card games, so it might be interesting to find out where the term comes from. Hand me my throbbing search engine, Chilvers... Hmmm. Doesn't seem to be much there according to Google, although Kevan will be pleased to know that the MC Card Game was the first on the list. Boingy boingy boingy, -- Paul Wayper -- DPI IS&S Computer Systems Officer SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From riffraff@n... Tue Jul 11 11:12:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31686 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 18:01:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Jul 2000 18:01:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 18:01:19 -0000 Received: from [24.95.79.71] (dhcp9579071.columbus.rr.com [24.95.79.71]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA26558 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:00:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:05:55 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Station Landed on Bonus >============ ==== >Termini (zone 3/4/5) Br >Interchange Rd >Green Gr >Mainline Bu >Zone x x Bl Interesting, although shouldn't a Terminus be worth more than a Bronze? And what do you mean by 'Mainline'? > >Further you can't claim for the same station twice in 3 (say) Turns. >You can still land on the station, just not get the bonus. You can >also get more than 1 bonus per Turn (Green Park is +Gr, +Rd, +Bl) . > >I would still cap Blacks at, say, 10. I think we need a testing round before we can properly determine this, but 10 is as good a place to start as any, I guess. >Well if we're going to have so many Tokens we should make good use of >them. Token stacks seem like a suitable way to do that, but they will >have to do something better than the current implementation. IMHO the >current system is barely any more useful than charge. > >I don't think Players should normally be able to pick up Tokens off a >Stack. Nor do I think that Actions paid for should go onto Stacks. So >Tokens would have to be explicitly placed on Stations. > >You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is >played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for >3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same >Turn. Interesting...sort of a more useful version of Manoeuvers. I would suggest that, if you can't pick up the Tokens (which I'm not sure I like, but I'm willing to play along for now), you should at least still be able to shunt them - that way you can steal tokens for your own actions by hockey-pucking them onto different stations. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Tue Jul 11 11:18:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7546 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 18:05:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m7.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Jul 2000 18:05:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 18:05:54 -0000 Received: from [24.95.79.71] (dhcp9579071.columbus.rr.com [24.95.79.71]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA27081 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:05:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:10:30 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >There is the problem with multi-station stacks: others can easily >steal Actions. If Garden places a Blue on all zone 1 holy stations he >can't make the Action until his next Turn, by then some other player >is likly to be able to reach one of the zone 1 holy stations and steal >the Action. Well, why does he have to wait 'till next turn? I can see that a delay might be necessary for a gambit that only requires one Token, to give other Players a chance to react, but something like this with tokens at multiple Stations, the delay involved in getting to all those Stations should be enough. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Tue Jul 11 14:29:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29122 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 21:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Jul 2000 21:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 21:29:21 -0000 Received: from [24.95.79.71] (dhcp9579071.columbus.rr.com [24.95.79.71]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA26480 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:28:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:33:57 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 12:11 PM 3/07/2000 +0100, you wrote: >>On the other hand I do like the current system _because_ it removes >>time from the equation. > >I still don't understand why. Time (e.g. "10:45AM") sums up a lot of >things - closure-states of stations and lines, how much more time you >have in this day, peak hours - that can't really be well represented >by tokens or what-have-you. And it means you don't have to keep >track of black tokens so ferociously. I agree. With game time, we can get rid of all the extra Blacks needed, simply by having Line Changes and so forth cost time instead of Tokens. Same for extra Actions. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Wed Jul 19 05:38:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5696 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2000 12:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jul 2000 12:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2000 12:38:27 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.131] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Et7H-0005dC-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:38:25 +0100 Message-ID: <002001bff17d$fca15220$834c08c3@snow> To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000704071541.007ea100@p...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:20:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > At 12:11 PM 3/07/2000 +0100, you wrote: > >On the other hand I do like the current system _because_ it removes > >time from the equation. > > I still don't understand why. Time (e.g. "10:45AM") sums up a lot of > things - closure-states of stations and lines, how much more time you > have in this day, peak hours - that can't really be well represented > by tokens or what-have-you. And it means you don't have to keep > track of black tokens so ferociously. Keeping track of Blacks is a lot easier than keeping track of time. And since we've got so many Tokens we might as well use them for something. > >If whatever moving system we use keeps moves relativly short then I > >think Token running could be viable. > > I think you're looking at the wrong problem here. > > The problem is not _long_ moves. It's being able to use a high LV to > move to anywhere you want - even close by stations - by using a > roundabout route. This is why an interchange time penalty makes so > much sense to me Generally I like the interchange idea, but it doesn't help for token running; there aren't that many interchanges on the way to termini. -- Snow Needlessly spliting infinitives. From snowl@s... Wed Jul 19 05:38:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6788 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2000 12:38:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jul 2000 12:38:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2000 12:38:29 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.131] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Et7K-0005dC-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:38:27 +0100 Message-ID: <002101bff17d$fe9755c0$834c08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:36:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Sorry for not saying anything for a while. Riff said: > >There is the problem with multi-station stacks: others can easily > >steal Actions. If Garden places a Blue on all zone 1 holy stations he > >can't make the Action until his next Turn, by then some other player > >is likly to be able to reach one of the zone 1 holy stations and steal > >the Action. > > Well, why does he have to wait 'till next turn? I can see that a delay > might be necessary for a gambit that only requires one Token, to give other > Players a chance to react, but something like this with tokens at multiple > Stations, the delay involved in getting to all those Stations should be > enough. It was just a suggestion off the top of my head, not something well thought out. The trouble with not waiting for the next Turn is that there is no point in having Stack Actions for just one Station. If all you have to do is put a Token on a Station and then do the Action one might as well just increase the cost of the Action. > >Station Landed on Bonus > >============ ==== > >Termini (zone 3/4/5) Br > >Interchange Rd > >Green Gr > >Mainline Bu > >Zone x x Bl > > Interesting, although shouldn't a Terminus be worth more than a Bronze? Maybe, it depends on how easy it is to get there. I was trying to get something simple and easy to remember. We could have Termini (zone=3/4/5) Br > And what do you mean by 'Mainline'? I meant BR Stations. > >Well if we're going to have so many Tokens we should make good use of > >them. Token stacks seem like a suitable way to do that, but they will > >have to do something better than the current implementation. IMHO the > >current system is barely any more useful than charge. > > > >I don't think Players should normally be able to pick up Tokens off a > >Stack. Nor do I think that Actions paid for should go onto Stacks. So > >Tokens would have to be explicitly placed on Stations. > > > >You would have to be on the station to do anything. Once the Action is > >played all the Tokens vanish and you can't use that Station again for > >3 Turns. You can't place the Token(s) and play the Action in the same > >Turn. > > Interesting...sort of a more useful version of Manoeuvers. I would suggest > that, if you can't pick up the Tokens (which I'm not sure I like, but I'm > willing to play along for now), you should at least still be able to shunt > them - that way you can steal tokens for your own actions by hockey-pucking > them onto different stations. I'm having doubts about what I said now. I still like the idea of a stacks-manuvers thing, but how to get the Tokens on the stacks and what to do once they are there is puzzeling me. The non-adjacent quadrant thing is too messy. Putting Tokens used to pay for Actions on Stations seem unnatural to me. The trouble with allowing people to pick up Tokens is that other Players would just go around picking up your carefully placed Tokens. Maybe we could just have all stack related action require more than one Token on more than one Station, that would eliminate the delay problem. Tokens can only be placed on Stations that the Player occupies and they can't be picked up (but can be shunted). I'm still not convinced by my own arguments. Can anyone suggest something better. -- Snow Thank god all that sport has gone, now we can watch Buffy TVS on a Wednesday afternoon like god intended us to. From riffraff@n... Wed Jul 19 20:26:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18731 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2000 03:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jul 2000 03:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jul 2000 03:26:37 -0000 Received: from [24.95.79.71] (dhcp9579071.columbus.rr.com [24.95.79.71]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA01803 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:26:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:31:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >It was just a suggestion off the top of my head, not something well >thought out. The trouble with not waiting for the next Turn is that >there is no point in having Stack Actions for just one Station. If all >you have to do is put a Token on a Station and then do the Action one >might as well just increase the cost of the Action. I meant when the tokens have to be placed on multiple Stations, you can do the action right after placing the last token. That way it still takes multiple turns, and maybe other players can stop you getting to that last Station. You're right though - one-station Actions would be useless that way... of course, we could just not have any. (How about, for the ease of discussion, we refer to this "place tokens on Stations to cause Actions" idea as 'Gambits' (as distinct from Manoeuvres from the original rules (even though they were also called Gambits.).)?) >I'm having doubts about what I said now. I still like the idea of a >stacks-manuvers thing, but how to get the Tokens on the stacks and >what to do once they are there is puzzeling me. > >The non-adjacent quadrant thing is too messy. Putting Tokens used to >pay for Actions on Stations seem unnatural to me. I kind of liked it, in the same way I like putting Luxury Tax and Community Chest money on Free Parking in Monopoly. It does seem, though, that there should be a better way. I remember once having to figure out a Blue action I could perform, just so I could get a Blue token onto a certain stack. Eurgh. >The trouble with >allowing people to pick up Tokens is that other Players would just go >around picking up your carefully placed Tokens. It just seems so natural, though. You land at a Station with a token, you get the token. It's like some kind of inherent law of boardgames. >Maybe we could just have all stack related action require more than >one Token on more than one Station, that would eliminate the delay >problem. Tokens can only be placed on Stations that the Player >occupies and they can't be picked up (but can be shunted). > >I'm still not convinced by my own arguments. Can anyone suggest >something better. Well, perhaps we should just leave it to simmer for a bit. I sort of feel it all seems too complicated for a beginning ruleset anyway. We can always bring it in as an IMCS Revisionary Supplement later on once we've figured something out. All we really need right now is to finalize Movement (including token bonuses), decide whether or not to use Time (I prefer Time, but I'll bow to the majority), and pick a few starting actions. And then we can start....... PLAYING! AARGH! (ahem.) After that, we can bring back some kind of Nomic system to add more complicated stuff like Token Stacking Gambits and my Podumes/Player States ideas... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From david@d... Fri Jul 21 01:10:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21120 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2000 08:10:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jul 2000 08:10:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jul 2000 08:10:22 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id DAA16479 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:09:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:09:28 -0500 (CDT) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch New to this list, but, after looking at the archives for a bit, I think I might chime in on some of what's been floating around. As far as moves go, my thoughts would be to use the free-move and token system, but with a couple changesto what's been discussed before. I'd base the number of free moves on the zone number, with a minimum. (ie, zone 6 gives you 6 free "steps", and so forth, but zones 1-3 give you 3.) Each line change is one step, costing a black token if necessary. (On a move longer than what you get free, it ends up being the same as automatically paying.) I'd say keep time, but with a fixed increment per turn, perhaps an hour. (This limits you to 24 different possible times per day, rather than 288, and eliminates the need for any addition whatsoever.) As for the idwa of mixing plastic and metallic tokens, I'd say to do that, but keep the idea of the number of plastic tokens indicating the degree of rarity that something should occur (say 4 rd for a fire + 1 si to pay to clean up the damage), or to increase the strength of something. (ie, shunt is 1rd + 2br for 4 stations, 2 more for each additional rd.) And, in parting, one breif thought about the endgame: provide a chance for someone else to sneak into Mornington Crescent before the person with 3 golds gets there, or to block the opener's path. Perhaps, make it 2 golds to open it, and it remains open until that Player's next turn ends, but the Player cannot stop there on the same turn as e opens it. There also should be some sort of additional goal to satisfy when you land there, so that you can't just move over from Euston, after having sat there and passed the whole game, when the person before you has opened it up. - David Lynch (Insert amusing .sig quote here) From snowl@s... Tue Jul 25 04:09:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30669 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 11:09:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Jul 2000 11:09:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 11:09:19 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.58] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13H2aL-000NKe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:09:17 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01bff628$7e8603e0$3a8d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:05:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff said: > I meant when the tokens have to be placed on multiple Stations, you can do > the action right after placing the last token. OK, so no one-station Gambits and mulit-Station Gambits can be played immediatly after placing the last Token. > >The non-adjacent quadrant thing is too messy. Putting Tokens used to > >pay for Actions on Stations seem unnatural to me. > > I kind of liked it, in the same way I like putting Luxury Tax and Community > Chest money on Free Parking in Monopoly How strange, my sister plays by such a rule, but when we checked the ruleset it doesn't exist. Maybe it was introduced in a later (or earlier) version. Daft rule if you ask me, it just keeps all the Tokens/money in the game so they saturate. > >The trouble with > >allowing people to pick up Tokens is that other Players would just go > >around picking up your carefully placed Tokens. > > It just seems so natural, though. You land at a Station with a token, you > get the token. It's like some kind of inherent law of boardgames. It would certainly be nice to pick up Tokens, but how do we regulate it? Limit picking up Tokens to one at a time, but allow 2 to be placed (so you can protect useful tokens with a worthless Black). Or prevent Tokens from being picked up with x Turns/Rounds of being placed. Or have a charge for picking up Tokens. > All we really need right now is to finalize Movement (including token > bonuses), decide whether or not to use Time (I prefer Time, but I'll bow to > the majority), and pick a few starting actions. And then we can > start....... PLAYING! AARGH! (ahem.) After that, we can bring back some > kind of Nomic system to add more complicated stuff like Token Stacking > Gambits and my Podumes/Player States ideas... OK, let's try to get some sort of rough draft going so we can see the holes. I've cut and pasted some of the stuff posted here with some of the stuff from the current Ruleset and produced a very rough draft. If people suggest better wording I can update it. Alternatively if Riff (or anyone else) wants to be editor e can scavenge chunks out of it for their own version. I just want to be able to see what I'm doing really. http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomic-d/ -- Snow No sooner does Buffy TVS come back, than Charmed goes missing, and Sliders is still AWOL. How am I supposed to get my fill of American Sci-fi TV when _they_ keep moving everything? I blame Murdoch/Gates/Blair/Europe; it's obviously a conspiricy. And they've got golf on 12hrs a day. Somebody should kill Greg Dyke, that would solve the problem. And there's that awful ColdPlay single being played 24/7, what's happened to British music? America is producing genius like Eninem and Moby, and Britain is producing rubbish like Embrace, Travis and Coldplay. Let's kill Jo Whiley, that would solve the problem. From snowl@s... Tue Jul 25 04:09:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21841 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 11:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Jul 2000 11:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 11:09:20 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.58] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13H2aM-000NKe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:09:19 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01bff628$7f6f7980$3a8d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: (unknown) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:05:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > New to this list, but, after looking at the archives for a bit, I think I > might chime in on some of what's been floating around. Welcome. > I'd say keep time, but with a fixed increment per turn, perhaps an hour. > (This limits you to 24 different possible times per day, rather than > 288, and eliminates the need for any addition whatsoever.) This is completly the opposite of my stance. If we _must_ have time, I would keep it for Turn length regulation only. Game time just doesn't give enough back to be worth it. Ideally I would leave time out. Snow's stupid idea of the day: No restriction of the number of Actions a person can have in a Turn. Obviously some things need regulating (number of shunts per Turn say), but why not let Players do as much as their Tokens will permit them? > And, in parting, one breif thought about the endgame: provide a chance for > someone else to sneak into Mornington Crescent before the person with 3 > golds gets there, I think if someone has gone to all the effort of getting 3 golds e should be the only one entitled to win. Certainly there should be ways to stop em, but it hardly seems fair to allow the win to be stolen. -- Snow Hurry up Mr Murdoch and buy the rest of the sport screen-rights please. I want to watch Sliders. From riffraff@n... Sat Jul 29 16:52:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17949 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2000 23:52:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jul 2000 23:52:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Jul 2000 23:52:04 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA04187 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:51:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:56:46 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> I kind of liked it, in the same way I like putting Luxury Tax and >Community >> Chest money on Free Parking in Monopoly > >How strange, my sister plays by such a rule, but when we checked the >ruleset it doesn't exist. Maybe it was introduced in a later (or >earlier) version. Daft rule if you ask me, it just keeps all the >Tokens/money in the game so they saturate. It's not an actual rule, more of a house rule that gets played in most people's houses. (Most people I know, anyway.) > >> >The trouble with >> >allowing people to pick up Tokens is that other Players would just >go >> >around picking up your carefully placed Tokens. >> >> It just seems so natural, though. You land at a Station with a >token, you >> get the token. It's like some kind of inherent law of boardgames. > >It would certainly be nice to pick up Tokens, but how do we regulate >it? Limit picking up Tokens to one at a time, but allow 2 to be >placed (so you can protect useful tokens with a worthless Black). Or >prevent Tokens from being picked up with x Turns/Rounds of being >placed. Or have a charge for picking up Tokens. Point. Well, how about this (I'm going off your ruleset from the egroups file here): First we make Bronze tokens a bit more common by making a BR Station worth a Br instead of Bu . BR = Br Aha-ha-ha. Then, we can charge a Br for picking up a Token. For the other tokens, make Interchanges worth _either_ a Blue or a Red, and 3-4-5 Terminuses worth a Blue _and_ a Red (Since they're relatively hard to get to). Howzat? >> All we really need right now is to finalize Movement (including >token >> bonuses), decide whether or not to use Time (I prefer Time, but I'll >bow to >> the majority), and pick a few starting actions. And then we can >> start....... PLAYING! AARGH! (ahem.) After that, we can bring back >some >> kind of Nomic system to add more complicated stuff like Token >Stacking >> Gambits and my Podumes/Player States ideas... > >OK, let's try to get some sort of rough draft going so we can see the >holes. I've cut and pasted some of the stuff posted here with some of >the stuff from the current Ruleset and produced a very rough draft. If >people suggest better wording I can update it. > >Alternatively if Riff (or anyone else) wants to be editor e can >scavenge chunks out of it for their own version. I just want to be >able to see what I'm doing really. > >http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomic-d/ Looks good for a start... some questions: Are we going to allow the 3 free steps of movement? Otherwise it may be possible to get stuck. Actions - how many per turn? Or are we just doing Time, presumably a limit of an hour? I notice you included durations in the blocking/unblocking actions. Blocking/Unblocking - Any color Tokens? Red, like the original version? Or Blue, since they don't directly affect other Players? Or perhaps Red to Block and Blue to Unblock? And can Unblocking be performed from anywhere on the board? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Sat Jul 29 17:02:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4884 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2000 00:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jul 2000 00:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jul 2000 00:02:11 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA04983 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:01:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:06:53 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> New to this list, but, after looking at the archives for a bit, I >think I >> might chime in on some of what's been floating around. > >Welcome. Indeed! Any relation to the movie-directing David Lynch? :) > >> I'd say keep time, but with a fixed increment per turn, perhaps an >hour. >> (This limits you to 24 different possible times per day, rather than >> 288, and eliminates the need for any addition whatsoever.) > >This is completly the opposite of my stance. If we _must_ have time, I >would keep it for Turn length regulation only. Game time just doesn't >give enough back to be worth it. Ideally I would leave time out. I'm a little confused... I think what David meant was to use time for turn length regulation, as you say, with a limit of one hour per turn. That way we only have to count Time in 1-hour increments. That's pretty much what we had before, except that if you didn't use the whole hour, only the used fraction would be added to the clock. Thinking about it, the idea of counting a full hour no matter how much you actually use has its attractions - not only would it be simpler to keep track of, but the day would wind on much quicker, thus bringing Off-Peak Hours and such into play more often. >Snow's stupid idea of the day: No restriction of the number of Actions >a person can have in a Turn. Obviously some things need regulating >(number of shunts per Turn say), but why not let Players do as much as >their Tokens will permit them? Well, around about the endgame, people usually have a pretty good stash of Tokens saved up... some pretty elaborate and crazy moves would ensue, without anything you could do in defense... > >> And, in parting, one breif thought about the endgame: provide a >chance for >> someone else to sneak into Mornington Crescent before the person >with 3 >> golds gets there, > >I think if someone has gone to all the effort of getting 3 golds e >should be the only one entitled to win. Certainly there should be ways >to stop em, but it hardly seems fair to allow the win to be stolen. Agreed. I guess that's why only lasted as long as the current Player's turn. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From david@d... Sat Jul 29 19:37:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23857 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2000 02:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jul 2000 02:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jul 2000 02:37:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id VAA03185 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:37:48 -0500 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:37:48 -0500 (CDT) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 riffraff@n... wrote: > Indeed! Any relation to the movie-directing David Lynch? :) No, but I'll gladly take credit for the movies. :) > > > >> I'd say keep time, but with a fixed increment per turn, perhaps an > >hour. > >> (This limits you to 24 different possible times per day, rather than > >> 288, and eliminates the need for any addition whatsoever.) > > > >This is completly the opposite of my stance. If we _must_ have time, I > >would keep it for Turn length regulation only. Game time just doesn't > >give enough back to be worth it. Ideally I would leave time out. > > I'm a little confused... I think what David meant was to use time for turn > length regulation, as you say, with a limit of one hour per turn. That way > we only have to count Time in 1-hour increments. Actually, I wasn't necessarialy approaching time as an action-limiting measure, but it did appear to work effectively. If were to go with time, I think I'd want to eliminate the speed limit as general rule, as you'd be limited already in a similar fashion. > That's pretty much what we had before, except that if you didn't use the > whole hour, only the used fraction would be added to the clock. Thinking > about it, the idea of counting a full hour no matter how much you actually > use has its attractions - not only would it be simpler to keep track of, > but the day would wind on much quicker, thus bringing Off-Peak Hours and > such into play more often. This was the primary thought. It lets you do off-peak, weekends, and holidays, but eliminates a lot of the complexity. > >> And, in parting, one breif thought about the endgame: provide a > >chance for > >> someone else to sneak into Mornington Crescent before the person > >with 3 > >> golds gets there, > > > >I think if someone has gone to all the effort of getting 3 golds e > >should be the only one entitled to win. Certainly there should be ways > >to stop em, but it hardly seems fair to allow the win to be stolen. > > Agreed. I guess that's why only lasted as long as the current > Player's turn. I honestly have no idea where I came up with the stolen win idea. I like the idea of being able to stop the person, perhaps make a post-turn move, valid for one round, but you get some of it back if you don't manage to land there on your next turn. -- David Lynch From snowl@s... Sun Jul 30 08:02:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3008 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2000 15:02:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jul 2000 15:02:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jul 2000 15:02:19 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.69] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13IubZ-0002AV-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:02:17 +0100 Message-ID: <005401bffa36$dabf2080$45877ed4@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:31:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > I'm a little confused... I think what David meant was to use time for turn > length regulation, as you say, with a limit of one hour per turn. That way > we only have to count Time in 1-hour increments. > > That's pretty much what we had before, except that if you didn't use the > whole hour, only the used fraction would be added to the clock. Thinking > about it, the idea of counting a full hour no matter how much you actually > use has its attractions - not only would it be simpler to keep track of, > but the day would wind on much quicker, thus bringing Off-Peak Hours and > such into play more often. Well, that certainly simplifies game time. I still don't think it's worth the effort, but with hour increment the effort is so little I won't argue over it (for now). > >Snow's stupid idea of the day: No restriction of the number of Actions > >a person can have in a Turn. Obviously some things need regulating > >(number of shunts per Turn say), but why not let Players do as much as > >their Tokens will permit them? > > Well, around about the endgame, people usually have a pretty good stash of > Tokens saved up... some pretty elaborate and crazy moves would ensue, > without anything you could do in defense... Don't people have a stash of Tokens because they can't play them quickly enough. If not, does it matter as long as everyone is the same. Or those who don't have lots of Tokens will probably have spent them earlier to get in a better position. Or maybe because Tokens hardly ever leave the game (they just go on Token Stacks) the game saturates. -- Snow God is broken. From snowl@s... Sun Jul 30 08:02:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23581 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2000 15:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 30 Jul 2000 15:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jul 2000 15:02:20 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.69] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Iuba-0002AV-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:02:19 +0100 Message-ID: <005501bffa36$db902c20$45877ed4@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:32:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff said: > Point. Well, how about this (I'm going off your ruleset from the egroups > file here): First we make Bronze tokens a bit more common by making a BR > Station worth a Br instead of Bu . BR = Br Aha-ha-ha. Then, we can charge > a Br for picking up a Token. For the other tokens, make Interchanges worth > _either_ a Blue or a Red, and 3-4-5 Terminuses worth a Blue _and_ a Red > (Since they're relatively hard to get to). Howzat? Why not just charge a Green? Or keep your system but have interchange=red, termini=blue. That way Blues can be used for more powerful, game-wide Actions. > >http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomic-d/ > > Looks good for a start... some questions: > > Are we going to allow the 3 free steps of movement? Otherwise it may be > possible to get stuck. Sorry, forgot to put that in. > Actions - how many per turn? Or are we just doing Time, presumably a limit > of an hour? I notice you included durations in the blocking/unblocking > actions. I used a template from another ruleset. The blocking/unblocking Actions are just place holders. I will work on a fresh template for Mornomic 2 (or Real MC?) once we've decide if durations are needed. > Blocking/Unblocking - Any color Tokens? Red, like the original version? > Or Blue, since they don't directly affect other Players? Or perhaps Red to > Block and Blue to Unblock? And can Unblocking be performed from anywhere > on the board? Again it's just a place holder. The other ruleset only has one token colour. When I write the new template I will include appropriate support for multiple tokens. -- Snow Charmed is back, but Morse has been made an hour earlier so they're on at the same time. Proof of conspiricy. From riffraff@n... Sun Jul 30 21:22:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12263 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2000 04:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 Jul 2000 04:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Jul 2000 04:22:34 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA09677 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:21:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:27:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Riff said: >> Point. Well, how about this (I'm going off your ruleset from the >egroups >> file here): First we make Bronze tokens a bit more common by making >a BR >> Station worth a Br instead of Bu . BR = Br Aha-ha-ha. Then, we can >charge >> a Br for picking up a Token. For the other tokens, make >Interchanges worth >> _either_ a Blue or a Red, and 3-4-5 Terminuses worth a Blue _and_ a >Red >> (Since they're relatively hard to get to). Howzat? > >Why not just charge a Green? That does sound good, and appropriate to the Token color. I was originally thinking Bronze because it didn't seem worthwile to spend a Token to pick up a Token of equal or lesser value, but I didn't take into account the fact that much of the reason for picking it up is to ruin someone else's Gambit. >Or keep your system but have >interchange=red, termini=blue. That way Blues can be used for more >powerful, game-wide Actions. I think that might make the Blues _too_ rare, and I expect that we'll probably end up with a lot of important Blue actions... Blocking, for example. I think Blue and Red should be roughly the same rarity. Powerful game-wide actions can simply cost more and have a longer time cost. The Termini are pretty tough to get to without spending a lot of Tokens on movement, so they should have a pretty good reward. Heck, we used to have Token Running, which gave a Gold for getting there, if I'm not mistaken. I was thinking, instead of giving both a Red and a Blue, we could have a Purple Token which can be used as either Red or Blue. That would be slightly less valuable than two tokens, but might be a pain in the neck... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Sun Jul 30 22:01:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23308 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2000 05:01:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 Jul 2000 05:01:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Jul 2000 05:01:44 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA11622 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:01:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:06:26 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Well, that certainly simplifies game time. I still don't think it's >worth the effort, but with hour increment the effort is so little I >won't argue over it (for now). How long should Movement take? Say, 5 minutes per Token spent, plus 10 per Line Change? (Not counting the 1 free change either pre- or post-Move.) >Don't people have a stash of Tokens because they can't play them >quickly enough. If not, does it matter as long as everyone is the >same. Or those who don't have lots of Tokens will probably have spent >them earlier to get in a better position. Or maybe because Tokens >hardly ever leave the game (they just go on Token Stacks) the game >saturates. Well, with the Time limit back, we don't have to have the 2-Action limit we were thinking of before. If we have a Time-increasing Action (say, 1 Green per extra hour), that would pretty much allow you as many Actions as you could pay for. More thoughts: Since Gambits have to involve at least 2 Stacks (and most would probably be at least 3), then that makes them really expensive, even before you count the movement and turns necessary to create the Stacks. Therefore Gambits would end up being A) really powerful, and B) rarely used. I think they add an interesting element to the game, and would like to see them used more commonly, instead of ending up like Manoeuvers, which were neat but almost never played. So, how about having 2 ways to place a Token on a Station: first, the regular post-Move Action , which allows you to place one of your Tokens at a Station you started or ended your Move on or passed through, and also a neutral Action , which allows you to create a _new_ Token at a Station you either started or ended your Move at (but _not_ one you passed through), depending on whether you play it as pre- or post-Move. This way, you don't have to spend your own Tokens on the Gambit if you don't want to, making the only 'cost' the time and effort it takes to get to the appropriate Stations. This way, we can have less powerful, more common Gambits - and if one needs to cost more, we can add a Token surcharge to activate the Gambit after you've placed the last Token. (It would be possible to place multiple tokens in a turn by both Dropping and Creating, but you'd be paying extra because you'd be using some of your own Tokens.) The greater amount of Tokens on the board shouldn't unbalance the relative rarity of the Tokens much because it's so costly to pick them up (a Green token is rarer than any except Silver or Gold), and the extra amount of Tokens on the board allows us to play with higher Stacks (color patterns, Toppling, etc.), and also Shunting them around to alter or prevent Gambits. (And there could always be Actions or Gambits that would destroy Tokens. For example, "If there are exactly 5 Black Tokens on a Line, you can play the Gambit to destroy all Tokens on that Line." Keeping track of the multiple Tokens also wouldn't be much of a problem - in the RL game, there's an obvious visual cue, and in the e-mail version there's a list of Stacks in the GSD - it would be harder to visualize them on the map, but that wouldn't usually be necessary because with Gambits like "4 Holy Stations with Blue Tokens at the top of the Stacks", the list is sufficient to see how close you are to success. Having the Line abbreviations included in the Stack list would make it even easier. Another problem (IMO) I've noticed is that there's no longer much reason (except for distance) to carefully plan what route you're taking in your Move... since there's no LV, you don't have to calculate your route in a way to exactly match your LV, and we don't currently have any Token bonuses for route, only for the Station landed at. Should we have some kind of Route Token Bonus or something? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@p... Mon Jul 31 13:19:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7599 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2000 20:19:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 Jul 2000 20:19:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.34) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Jul 2000 20:19:11 -0000 Received: œby mail3.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03944; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:20:47 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:20:47 -0700 Message-Id: <200007311920.MAA03944@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [216.69.223.249] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses From: "RiffRaff ." Well, I'm bored at work, so here's some various thoughts... First, some minor nitpicky corrections for the e-groups file: "Specifically, if something begins during the Post-Move Phase of a Player's Turn and lasts for one Round, then that something stops at the end of the Post-Move phase in that Player's next Turn or (if that Player Resigns or goes Inactive) the point after which eir Turn would have been." I think, traditionally, we've played it with the duration ending at the _beginning_ of the post-move phase... You play the Action, get the effects during your post-move phase, everyone else gets one full turn under the effects, and then you get your pre-move and move phases under the effects, thus giving you a total of one full turn affected as well. Otherwise, you would get _two_ post-move phases worth of effects. "A player's train is moved using the move action." Er... can we have 'piece' instead of 'train'? :) "A player may not step to a blocked station." How about: 'A player may pass through, but not occupy, a closed Station. A player may neither pass through nor occupy a blocked Station.' "A Player ay not hold more than 10 Black Tokens at the end or eir Turn." Hm, I like this better than a straight 10-Token limit... this way, you can get more than 10, as long as you get rid of them by the end of the turn. See, I was worried that a limit of 10 wouldn't be enough, but this should fix it. Bravo. "interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 adjacent stations." This isn't actually true... I can't pull up the map right now (it's too obviously non-work-related, and anyway members.xoom seems to be down), but I definately remember at least two Interchanges with only two adjacent Stations - one in the middle of the far left of the map, where the ends of the red and green lines join together, and one in the upper-right, where the white line intersects with a line that isn't displayed on our map - possibly British Rail, or something. Also, I think there may be an opposite example - a non-interchange Station with three adjacent Stations - involving a co-situated Station on the blue and green lines, near the lower-left corner of the Circle line. Not as sure about my memory on that one, though. A couple more definitions: 'Pass through' - A Station that is stepped to during a Player's Move, excepting the Station the Move is finished at, is considered to have been passed through. 'Occupy' - On a Player's turn, the Stations e started and ended eir Move at, as well as any Station moved to or from using piece-moving Actions, are considered to have been occupied by that Player during that turn. Other players are considered to be occupying the Stations they are currently located at. --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - the number one place on the net for Powerpuff Stuff! http://fm.powerpuff.com POWERPUFF-FM: cartoon bits & anime hits - LISTEN NOW! From riffraff@n... Mon Jul 31 14:29:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25785 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2000 21:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 Jul 2000 21:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Jul 2000 21:29:02 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15265 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:28:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:33:34 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: MN: Re: RE: Token Stacks and bonuses X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >"interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 >adjacent stations." > >This isn't actually true... I can't pull up the map right now (it's too >>obviously non-work-related, and anyway members.xoom seems to be down), >but >I definately remember at least two Interchanges with only two >adjacent >Stations - one in the middle of the far left of the map, where >the ends of >the red and green lines join together, and one in the >upper-right, where >the white line intersects with a line that isn't >displayed on our map - >possibly British Rail, or something. Okay, at home with the map: Ealing Broadway, Barking, and Queen's Park are all Interchanges with only 2 adjacent Stations. (The 'white line' I was thinking of is, I think, Network Southeast, which isn't on our map, but is on my gameboard.) >Also, I think there may be an opposite example - a non-interchange Station >>with three adjacent Stations - involving a co-situated Station on the >blue >and green lines, near the lower-left corner of the Circle line. Not >as sure >about my memory on that one, though. I was right on that one, it's Turnham Green. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Tue Aug 01 14:51:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6047 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2000 21:51:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Aug 2000 21:51:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Aug 2000 21:51:29 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.21] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Jjwe-000B89-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:51:28 +0100 Message-ID: <000601bffc02$55b199e0$15877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <200007311920.MAA03944@m...> Subject: Draft Ruleset Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 06:55:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff said: > First, some minor nitpicky corrections for the e-groups file: > > "Specifically, if something begins during the Post-Move Phase > of a Player's Turn and lasts for one Round, then that something > stops at the end of the Post-Move phase in that Player's next > Turn or (if that Player Resigns or goes Inactive) the point after > which eir Turn would have been." > > I think, traditionally, we've played it with the duration ending at the _beginning_ of the post-move phase... I just cut+pasted it from the current ruleset. If you makes a Action at the end of the post-move phase then it doesn't affect your current Turn so it should affect the next Turn. > "A player's train is moved using the move action." > > Er... can we have 'piece' instead of 'train'? :) If you want. I prefer "train" myself, but it doesn't really matter. > "A player may not step to a blocked station." > > How about: 'A player may pass through, but not occupy, a closed Station. A player may neither pass through nor occupy a blocked Station.' OK. > "interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 > adjacent stations." > > This isn't actually true... It's only not true if we decide it's not true. This definition is more general and less likly to change with new LU maps. > 'Pass through' - A Station that is stepped to during a Player's Move, excepting the Station the Move is finished at, is considered to have been passed through. OK, but the Station finished at is stepped to (so isn't an exception), but the first Station isn't (so is an exception). 'Pass through' - A Station is passed through if it has been stepped to or from during a Player's Move. > 'Occupy' - On a Player's turn, the Stations e started and ended eir Move at, as well as any Station moved to or from using piece-moving Actions, are considered to have been occupied by that Player during that turn. Other players are considered to be occupying the Stations they are currently located at. This allows Players to "occupy" several Stations at the same time. How about: "A Player occupies the Station e is currently located at." Or is that a circular definition? I've put a new draft up on: http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomic-d/ -- Snow I can set fire to things in 3 different languages. From snowl@s... Tue Aug 01 14:51:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6113 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2000 21:51:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Aug 2000 21:51:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Aug 2000 21:51:31 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.21] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Jjwf-000B89-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:51:29 +0100 Message-ID: <000701bffc02$5671dca0$15877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 07:34:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff wrote: > >Well, that certainly simplifies game time. I still don't think it's > >worth the effort, but with hour increment the effort is so little I > >won't argue over it (for now). > > How long should Movement take? Say, 5 minutes per Token spent, plus 10 per > Line Change? (Not counting the 1 free change either pre- or post-Move.) I give an inch and you take a mile! I said game-time not Turn-time. I still quite happy to argue over Turn time. Snow's stupid idea of the day: No pre-move Actions. Fixed limit of 3 Actions per Turn, or -Gr per extra Action. What are pre-move Actions for? How do they help the Game? > So, how about having 2 ways to place a Token on a Station: first, the > regular post-Move Action , which allows you > to place one of your Tokens at a Station you started or ended your Move on > or passed through, and also a neutral Action [Station]>, which allows you to create a _new_ Token at a Station I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. What's the point of having different Tokens with different rarity if they can just be magiced out of thin air at will. I understand that there is a problem of not enough Tokens on the board, but this seems to undermine the whole Token system. Unless I misunderstand you? How having some Gambits that allow Tokens to "breed". Put a Green on 2 BR Stations and you get 3Gr. > Another problem (IMO) I've noticed is that there's no longer much reason > (except for distance) to carefully plan what route you're taking in your > Move... since there's no LV, you don't have to calculate your route in a > way to exactly match your LV, and we don't currently have any Token bonuses > for route, only for the Station landed at. Should we have some kind of > Route Token Bonus or something? I think that if we can make the Gambit thing work there will be plenty of route planning skills required. Not necessarily inside the Turn, but over several Turns. Can you suggest a suitabe system for route Token bonuses inside Turns? -- Snow "Penises can go up as well as down." From riffraff@n... Tue Aug 01 15:42:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14685 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2000 22:42:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Aug 2000 22:42:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Aug 2000 22:42:32 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04076 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:41:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:47:15 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Draft Ruleset X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> I think, traditionally, we've played it with the duration ending at >the _beginning_ of the post-move phase... > >I just cut+pasted it from the current ruleset. If you makes a Action >at the end of the post-move phase then it doesn't affect your current >Turn so it should affect the next Turn. Well, it depends on when you play it. If it's your first Action after your Move, you get a post-move phase's worth of effect. >> "interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 >> adjacent stations." >> >> This isn't actually true... > >It's only not true if we decide it's not true. This definition is more >general and less likly to change with new LU maps. But what about the Interchanges that _don't_ have 3 adjacent Stations? We could just define Interchanges as "a thing on the map" like Zones and Lines. :) > >> 'Pass through' - A Station that is stepped to during a Player's >Move, excepting the Station the Move is finished at, is considered to >have been passed through. > >OK, but the Station finished at is stepped to (so isn't an exception), >but the first Station isn't (so is an exception). > >'Pass through' - A Station is passed through if it has been stepped to >or from during a Player's Move. Except that the Stations you start and finish at aren't passed _through_. >> 'Occupy' - On a Player's turn, the Stations e started and ended eir >Move at, as well as any Station moved to or from using piece-moving >Actions, are considered to have been occupied by that Player during >that turn. Other players are considered to be occupying the Stations >they are currently located at. > >This allows Players to "occupy" several Stations at the same time. How >about: "A Player occupies the Station e is currently located at." Or >is that a circular definition? The important phrase is "have been occupied", meaning a Station that you spent some time at instead of just moving through (which is why I made that exception in the 'passed through' definition above). If you start at Station Foo, Move to Station Bar, perform a couple post-move Actions, and then straddle to Station Baz, then that's three Stations that you've occupied over the course of your Turn. Once your turn is over, however, you only occupy the Station you're standing on at the end of your turn. The distinction might be important for certain actions, i.e. a token could be dropped at any Station you happened to pass through, but you could only create the PoID at a Station you've actually occupied. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Tue Aug 01 16:25:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26883 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2000 23:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Aug 2000 23:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Aug 2000 23:25:46 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA10166 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:25:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:30:28 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> How long should Movement take? Say, 5 minutes per Token spent, plus >10 per >> Line Change? (Not counting the 1 free change either pre- or >post-Move.) > >I give an inch and you take a mile! I said game-time not Turn-time. >I still quite happy to argue over Turn time. Hmph. I still prefer it as a better alternative for limiting the number of Actions... after all, it was you who suggested allowing players as many Actions as they could pay for, and with turn-time plus purchasing extra hours, that can easily be done... Another good thing about it is a balancing effect - if you spend less time Moving, you've got more time for Actions, and vice-versa. > >Snow's stupid idea of the day: No pre-move Actions. Fixed limit of 3 >Actions per Turn, or -Gr per extra Action. What are pre-move Actions >for? How do they help the Game? Simply because there's Actions you might want to play before you Move? Oh, unless you mean making all Actions either neutral or specifically post-move. True, there's aren't many pre-move Actions, but there are a few... paying a Toll to another Player, for instance, has no purpose if you do it _after_ you've moved. > >> So, how about having 2 ways to place a Token on a Station: first, >the >> regular post-Move Action , which >allows you >> to place one of your Tokens at a Station you started or ended your >Move on >> or passed through, and also a neutral Action > [Station]>, which allows you to create a _new_ Token at a Station > >I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. What's the point of >having different Tokens with different rarity if they can just be >magiced out of thin air at will. I understand that there is a problem >of not enough Tokens on the board, but this seems to undermine the >whole Token system. Unless I misunderstand you? Well, first of all, I guess we'd have to say you couldn't Create Silver or Gold Tokens. Therefore any Token you pick up is going to be equal or lesser value than the Token you spent on it, since it costs a Green and that's the rarest of the Plastics (and Bronze). So Action costs wouldn't be undermined at all. Gambit costs would be different, true - 3 Red Tokens on BR Stations would be just as difficult as 3 Green Tokens, but I think that Gambits will be plenty difficult just based on how much travelling around you have to do and recovering from having them Shunted out of place. The colors of the Tokens would be more thematic. Plus, since you'd have the option of dropping your own Tokens as well as creating them (in order to get them in place faster), the Token color would affect you there. (And like I mentioned before, if a Gambit needs a little extra difficulty, there can be a Token charge for actually activating the Gambit after all the Tokens are in place on the board.) >How having some Gambits that allow Tokens to "breed". Put a Green on 2 >BR Stations and you get 3Gr. That might be good, although... How exactly are we planning on Gambits to work? "If you personally place such-and-such Tokens then..." or "If such-and-such Tokens are on the board..."? Or some of each? To use your example, if I place a Green on a BR Station one turn, and then someone else shunts it away before I place the second Green, do I still get paid? I _did_ place it on the Station... What if I find two Greens already on the board, and shunt them onto BR Stations, do I get paid? Once Tokens start getting kicked around, it'll be difficult to keep track of who originally put them down, and where. I'm thinking Gambits might be best served by declaring a certain pattern of Tokens that must exist on the board, no matter who got them there or how. If that condition is met, then a Token cost can be paid to activate the Gambit - with the color of the cost relating to the nature of the Gambit just like Action costs. Example: "If there are two Black Tokens located at Holy Stations and two Red Tokens located at Compass Stations, you may spend 2 Bu to destroy those four Tokens and put the game into Knip." >> Another problem (IMO) I've noticed is that there's no longer much >reason >> (except for distance) to carefully plan what route you're taking in >your >> Move... since there's no LV, you don't have to calculate your route >in a >> way to exactly match your LV, and we don't currently have any Token >bonuses >> for route, only for the Station landed at. Should we have some kind >of >> Route Token Bonus or something? > >I think that if we can make the Gambit thing work there will be plenty >of route planning skills required. Not necessarily inside the Turn, >but over several Turns. Good point, I hadn't considered that. >Can you suggest a suitabe system for route >Token bonuses inside Turns? I'll think about it... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From Richard_M_Brockie@s... Tue Aug 01 16:33:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11026 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2000 23:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Aug 2000 23:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com) (204.160.183.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Aug 2000 23:32:03 -0000 Received: (from smap) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com id XAA08717 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:32:02 GMT Received: from unknown(192.168.109.16) by proxy1.it.stsj.seagate.com via smap (V5.0) id xma008291; Tue, 1 Aug 00 23:30:30 GMT Received: from sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com (sv-gw1.stsv.seagate.com [134.204.14.95]) by auth0.it.stsj.seagate.com with ESMTP id XAA04886 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:30:30 GMT Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:30:27 -0700 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SV-GW1/Seagate Internet(Release 5.0.2a (Intl)|23 November 1999) at 08/01/2000 04:30:30 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Richard_M_Brockie@s... "> >Snow's stupid idea of the day: No pre-move Actions. Fixed limit of 3 >Actions per Turn, or -Gr per extra Action. What are pre-move Actions >for? How do they help the Game? Simply because there's Actions you might want to play before you Move? Oh, unless you mean making all Actions either neutral or specifically post-move. True, there's aren't many pre-move Actions, but there are a few... paying a Toll to another Player, for instance, has no purpose if you do it _after_ you've moved." Pre-move actions must be kept - otherwise [Opening MC] is rather tricky, and having it as a post-move action means that for it to benefit you, it must last a round, leaving MC open for all other players until it is again your turn... - miKi riffraff@n... on 08/01/2000 05:30:28 PM Please respond to l-nomic-d@egroups.com To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com cc: Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) >> How long should Movement take? Say, 5 minutes per Token spent, plus >10 per >> Line Change? (Not counting the 1 free change either pre- or >post-Move.) > >I give an inch and you take a mile! I said game-time not Turn-time. >I still quite happy to argue over Turn time. Hmph. I still prefer it as a better alternative for limiting the number of Actions... after all, it was you who suggested allowing players as many Actions as they could pay for, and with turn-time plus purchasing extra hours, that can easily be done... Another good thing about it is a balancing effect - if you spend less time Moving, you've got more time for Actions, and vice-versa. > >Snow's stupid idea of the day: No pre-move Actions. Fixed limit of 3 >Actions per Turn, or -Gr per extra Action. What are pre-move Actions >for? How do they help the Game? Simply because there's Actions you might want to play before you Move? Oh, unless you mean making all Actions either neutral or specifically post-move. True, there's aren't many pre-move Actions, but there are a few... paying a Toll to another Player, for instance, has no purpose if you do it _after_ you've moved. > >> So, how about having 2 ways to place a Token on a Station: first, >the >> regular post-Move Action , which >allows you >> to place one of your Tokens at a Station you started or ended your >Move on >> or passed through, and also a neutral Action > [Station]>, which allows you to create a _new_ Token at a Station > >I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. What's the point of >having different Tokens with different rarity if they can just be >magiced out of thin air at will. I understand that there is a problem >of not enough Tokens on the board, but this seems to undermine the >whole Token system. Unless I misunderstand you? Well, first of all, I guess we'd have to say you couldn't Create Silver or Gold Tokens. Therefore any Token you pick up is going to be equal or lesser value than the Token you spent on it, since it costs a Green and that's the rarest of the Plastics (and Bronze). So Action costs wouldn't be undermined at all. Gambit costs would be different, true - 3 Red Tokens on BR Stations would be just as difficult as 3 Green Tokens, but I think that Gambits will be plenty difficult just based on how much travelling around you have to do and recovering from having them Shunted out of place. The colors of the Tokens would be more thematic. Plus, since you'd have the option of dropping your own Tokens as well as creating them (in order to get them in place faster), the Token color would affect you there. (And like I mentioned before, if a Gambit needs a little extra difficulty, there can be a Token charge for actually activating the Gambit after all the Tokens are in place on the board.) >How having some Gambits that allow Tokens to "breed". Put a Green on 2 >BR Stations and you get 3Gr. That might be good, although... How exactly are we planning on Gambits to work? "If you personally place such-and-such Tokens then..." or "If such-and-such Tokens are on the board..."? Or some of each? To use your example, if I place a Green on a BR Station one turn, and then someone else shunts it away before I place the second Green, do I still get paid? I _did_ place it on the Station... What if I find two Greens already on the board, and shunt them onto BR Stations, do I get paid? Once Tokens start getting kicked around, it'll be difficult to keep track of who originally put them down, and where. I'm thinking Gambits might be best served by declaring a certain pattern of Tokens that must exist on the board, no matter who got them there or how. If that condition is met, then a Token cost can be paid to activate the Gambit - with the color of the cost relating to the nature of the Gambit just like Action costs. Example: "If there are two Black Tokens located at Holy Stations and two Red Tokens located at Compass Stations, you may spend 2 Bu to destroy those four Tokens and put the game into Knip." >> Another problem (IMO) I've noticed is that there's no longer much >reason >> (except for distance) to carefully plan what route you're taking in >your >> Move... since there's no LV, you don't have to calculate your route >in a >> way to exactly match your LV, and we don't currently have any Token >bonuses >> for route, only for the Station landed at. Should we have some kind >of >> Route Token Bonus or something? > >I think that if we can make the Gambit thing work there will be plenty >of route planning skills required. Not necessarily inside the Turn, >but over several Turns. Good point, I hadn't considered that. >Can you suggest a suitabe system for route >Token bonuses inside Turns? I'll think about it... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From david@d... Tue Aug 01 21:42:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1123 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2000 04:42:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Aug 2000 04:42:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Aug 2000 04:42:40 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id XAA03288 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:42:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:42:34 -0500 (CDT) To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: 01 August Ruleset In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch A few thoughts. Apologies in advance for any long-windedness. > x.2 - Turn Phases > > Multiple Actions are permitted, provided that there is only one > example of a particular Action type made that Turn. This needs a bit of clarification, in my opinion, as to what a "particular Action type" is. > x.5 - Timing is Everything > > Saturdays and Sundays are ignored > for the purposes of this rule, so that if a Player submits a Turn > at 10am on Friday, the next Player has until 10pm on Monday to > submit eir Turn. A Player may still submit eir Turn at the weekend, > in which case the 36 hours start at 0000GMT Monday. This could be shortened to something like "A Player's 36 hours do not include time between 0000 GMT Saturday and 0000 GMT Monday, but e may take eir turn during that time." > x.1 - Moving > > Zone + Bk Clarify how one figures . (Or have we decided?) > x.1 - Actions > > Allowable exchanges are: > 10Br -> 1Si > 1Si -> 10Br We could just say that "The reverse of any Exchange listed below is also acceptable," and save ourselves a line on each exchange. > Move... David's evil thought of the day: Use the actual times between the stations for time, according to LUL. Not-so-evil thought: Exchanges not at the start or end of a route cost 5 minutes for the first, 10 minutes for the second, and so on... > x.1 - Glossary > > interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 > adjacent stations. OK... let's try this... "An interchange station is one which has multiple lines or branches thereof which do not all serve the same adjacent stations." This would include, in my interpretation: * Ones which are clearly interchange stations. * Stations which are served by multiple lines, but at least one terminates. (Barking, Ealing Broadway, Edgware Road [Circle/District/H&C]) * Stations with multiple branches of the same line where one terminates (Chalfont & Latimer, Woodford) This would change the interchanges some from what are marked on the post-JLE map I have (IE doesn't want to work for me right now to see the Xoom map) as follows: * Aldgate becomes an interchange station. (2nd case above) * Kennington, Harrow-on-the-Hill, North Acton, Turnham Green, Leytonstone, and Camden Town become interchange stations, by virtue of having a branch split off between them and adjacent stations. * Hight Street Kensington becomes an interchange station, because the Edgware Road branch does not continue with the Circle. Or we could just define it as what's on the map. > terminus: A terminus station is one that has only one adjacent > station. ...on the line? From riffraff@p... Wed Aug 02 07:27:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18972 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2000 14:22:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Aug 2000 14:22:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail9.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Aug 2000 14:22:53 -0000 Received: œby mail9.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA23214; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 06:25:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 06:25:29 -0700 Message-Id: <200008021325.GAA23214@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [216.69.223.249] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Re: 01 August Ruleset From: "RiffRaff ." >> x.2 - Turn Phases >> >> Multiple Actions are permitted, provided that there is only one >> example of a particular Action type made that Turn. > >This needs a bit of clarification, in my opinion, as to what a "particular >Action type" is. In the original version, you simply couldn't play the same Action twice in a turn unless the Action specifically allowed it (like most Token Exchanges, and Blocking at an extra charge). I assume that's what Snow means, unless he has more elaborate plans... >> x.1 - Moving >> >> Zone + Bk > >Clarify how one figures . (Or have we decided?) The number of the Zone. i.e if you're in Zone 3, you get +3 Bk. >> x.1 - Actions >> >> Allowable exchanges are: >> 10Br -> 1Si >> 1Si -> 10Br Ooer, that seems like a lot... I was thinking more along the lines of the 8 Br = 2 Si = 1 Go that we had originally. Since you can only get the Bronzes at BR Stations, they aren't as common any more. >David's evil thought of the day: Use the actual times between the >stations for time, according to LUL. Yeek! I doubt we could get Snow to agree to _that_... Heck, I'm a bit wary myself. :) >Not-so-evil thought: Exchanges not at the start or end of a route cost 5 >minutes for the first, 10 minutes for the second, and so on... Sounds okay... > >> x.1 - Glossary >> >> interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 >> adjacent stations. > >OK... let's try this... "An interchange station is one which has multiple >lines or branches thereof which do not all serve the same adjacent >stations." This would include, in my interpretation: Well, except that the ones that serve multiple lines but aren't marked as Interchanges are that way for a reason - you can't change lines there. The best example is (forget the name, and again I can't get to the map... I think we might have members.xoom firewalled. The one on the blue and green lines about an inch away from the SW corner of the Circle line. Edgware Road, possibly?) where it isn't an interchange, yet serves a different Station on each of the two lines, in that direction. If we declare it as an interchange, wouldn't that imply that you can change lines there, even though you can't in actual terms? Plus, we'd have to remember which Stations aren't accurately labelled on the Map, and so forth... aaugh! >Or we could just define it as what's on the map. Yes, please! (whimper) >> terminus: A terminus station is one that has only one adjacent >> station. > >...on the line? Yes, there aren't any multi-line terminii, so they each have exactly one adjacent Station. Plus, they have their own map symbol too... --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - the number one place on the net for Powerpuff Stuff! http://fm.powerpuff.com POWERPUFF-FM: cartoon bits & anime hits - LISTEN NOW! From snowl@s... Wed Aug 02 13:40:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4941 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2000 20:40:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Aug 2000 20:40:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Aug 2000 20:40:38 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.41] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13K5Jb-000CQe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:40:36 +0100 Message-ID: <000101bffcc1$963e0d80$294b08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Draft Ruleset Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:53:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > >> I think, traditionally, we've played it with the duration ending at > >the _beginning_ of the post-move phase... > > > >I just cut+pasted it from the current ruleset. If you makes a Action > >at the end of the post-move phase then it doesn't affect your current > >Turn so it should affect the next Turn. > > Well, it depends on when you play it. If it's your first Action after your > Move, you get a post-move phase's worth of effect. If you do something really evil that lasts a round it is only fair that it affects you as well. > >> 'Pass through' - A Station that is stepped to during a Player's > >Move, excepting the Station the Move is finished at, is considered to > >have been passed through. > > > >OK, but the Station finished at is stepped to (so isn't an exception), > >but the first Station isn't (so is an exception). > > > >'Pass through' - A Station is passed through if it has been stepped to > >or from during a Player's Move. > > Except that the Stations you start and finish at aren't passed _through_. OK, I see, I misread your definition. I thought you were specifically including the last Station rather than excluding it. > >> 'Occupy' - On a Player's turn, the Stations e started and ended > > The important phrase is "have been occupied", meaning a Station that you > spent some time at instead of just moving through (which is why I made that > exception in the 'passed through' definition above "A Player may Block a Station adjacent to the one e currently occupies." allows the Player to Block Stations that e shouldn't be able to. It also allows vacuum-occupation; make a pre-Move action dependant on occupying the Station the Move is made to. Maybe e wouldn't be able to move to that Station unless the Action was played. > The distinction might be important for certain actions, i.e. a token could > be dropped at any Station you happened to pass through, but you could only > create the PoID at a Station you've actually occupied. Make "occupy" mean the current location (the piece is stationary). And use "has occupied during this turn" for situations where it is needed (I don't think there are many). -- Snow Making sculptures out of oxygen. From snowl@s... Wed Aug 02 13:40:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25357 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2000 20:40:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Aug 2000 20:40:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Aug 2000 20:40:43 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.41] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13K5Jc-000CQe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:40:37 +0100 Message-ID: <000201bffcc1$96ef0e00$294b08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: Re: 01 August Ruleset Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:00:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" David said: > A few thoughts. Apologies in advance for any long-windedness. > > > x.2 - Turn Phases > > > > Multiple Actions are permitted, provided that there is only one > > example of a particular Action type made that Turn. > > This needs a bit of clarification, in my opinion, as to what a "particular > Action type" is. > > > x.5 - Timing is Everything > > > > Saturdays and Sundays are ignored > > for the purposes of this rule, so that if a Player submits a Turn > > at 10am on Friday, the next Player has until 10pm on Monday to > > submit eir Turn. A Player may still submit eir Turn at the weekend, > > in which case the 36 hours start at 0000GMT Monday. > > This could be shortened to something like "A Player's 36 hours do not > include time between 0000 GMT Saturday and 0000 GMT Monday, but e may take > eir turn during that time." I just cut+pasted this from the current ruleset. I will rewrite it at some point (unless you want to do it). > > x.1 - Moving > > > > Zone + Bk > > Clarify how one figures . (Or have we decided?) We decided that would be the zone the move was finished at. I'll update the ruleset sometime. > > x.1 - Actions > > > > Allowable exchanges are: > > 10Br -> 1Si > > 1Si -> 10Br > > We could just say that "The reverse of any Exchange listed below is also > acceptable," and save ourselves a line on each exchange. It won't save any space in the GSD and the sentence is longer than the extra space taken in the ruleset. > David's evil thought of the day: Use the actual times between the > stations for time, according to LUL. Hmmm. I wonder if we could make this work. Some form of table or program would be required to do the sums. I still don't want time, but if we have it we could consider this. > > x.1 - Glossary > > > > interchange: An interchange station is one that has at least 3 > > adjacent stations. > > OK... let's try this... "An interchange station is one which has multiple > lines or branches thereof which do not all serve the same adjacent > stations." This would include, in my interpretation: Bit of a mouth full, but it does the job. I think some kind of explanation would be needed along with the formal definition. > * Stations which are served by multiple lines, but at least one > terminates. (Barking, Ealing Broadway, Edgware Road [Circle/District/H&C]) Ahhh, now I see what Riff was on about. I hadn't thought about that > * Aldgate becomes an interchange station. (2nd case above) I'm not sure Aldgate or Barking should be interchanges, but your definition is so nice I can put up with it. > * Hight Street Kensington becomes an interchange station, because the > Edgware Road branch does not continue with the Circle. Interesting, let me play Holmes for a while. The maps I have don't show that High Street Kensington is a terminus for some branches of the District line (though not the Edgware Road branch), so either you have a different map to me, or you've been there. Now I can't see any reason why a map would incorrectly mark the Edgware Road branch as terminating at HSK, so I conclude that you've been there. But you aren't in Britain now (unless you've setup your computer up wrong and work nights). So I hypothesize that you are either a) A Briton living in the Americas or b) A North or South American who went on holiday to London. Now the fact you put "1 August" in the subject header suggests you are not originally American as an American would use "August 1". You could be from Canada/Cuba/Bolivia/Chilli if they write dates European style, but I will conclude you are originally British. I think it is more likely that an ex-pat would want to play MC than a random Canadian and I doubt Cuba/Bolivia/Chilli have enough internet users to be statistically significant. Either way you spent some time waiting for a train at HSK (normal), enough to ingrain the fact that the district line has a terminus there. But not regularly otherwise you would know which branches terminate there. Now you seem to have some degree of familiarlity with the LU map, so I think you probably lived in London at some point, but never had cause to regularly get off at HSK (as they say). How did I do Watson? Regardless, we can't make rules based on anything except what the map looks like and all the maps I have don't show the terminus at HSK. > > terminus: A terminus station is one that has only one adjacent > > station. > > ...on the line? Good point. terminus: A terminus station is one that has exactly one adjacent station on some line. -- Snow I wonder how many people get off in underground stations. From snowl@s... Wed Aug 02 13:40:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25636 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2000 20:40:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Aug 2000 20:40:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Aug 2000 20:40:47 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.41] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13K5Ja-000CQe-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:40:34 +0100 Message-ID: <000001bffcc1$956d01e0$294b08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:52:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff said: > >Snow's stupid idea of the day: No pre-move Actions. > > Simply because there's Actions you might want to play before you Move OK it was a stupid idea. > >> or passed through, and also a neutral Action >> [Station]>, which allows you to create a _new_ Token at a Station > > > >I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. What's the point of > >having different Tokens with different rarity if they can just be > >magiced out of thin air at will. I understand that there is a problem > >of not enough Tokens on the board, but this seems to undermine the > >whole Token system. Unless I misunderstand you? > > Well, first of all, I guess we'd have to say you couldn't Create Silver or > Gold Tokens. Therefore any Token you pick up is going to be equal or > lesser value than the Token you spent on it, since it costs a Green and > that's the rarest of the Plastics (and Bronze). Green Stations may be few, but there not as inaccessable as Termini. I think Bronze will be more difficult to get than Green. I still think this problem would be better solved by making Tokens more available. Also the [Droping ] Action might be allowed more than once per Turn, though that would bring back the "place token and do Action in same turn" problem. Let's include it for now, and review it after a test game. Though only non-metallics should be allowed. > >How having some Gambits that allow Tokens to "breed". Put a Green on 2 > >BR Stations and you get 3Gr. > > I'm thinking Gambits might be best served by declaring a certain pattern of > Tokens that must exist on the board, no matter who got them there or how. That's what I meant, I just phrased it badly. -- Snow Britain's largest importer of lobster semen. From david@d... Wed Aug 02 17:19:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11270 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 00:19:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 00:19:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 00:19:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id TAA04642 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:19:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:19:10 -0500 (CDT) To: Mornomic Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: 01 August Ruleset In-Reply-To: <000201bffcc1$96ef0e00$294b08c3@snow> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Snow wrote: > David said: > > > x.5 - Timing is Everything > > > > > > Saturdays and Sundays are ignored > > > for the purposes of this rule, so that if a Player submits a > Turn > > > at 10am on Friday, the next Player has until 10pm on Monday > to > > > submit eir Turn. A Player may still submit eir Turn at the > weekend, > > > in which case the 36 hours start at 0000GMT Monday. > > > > This could be shortened to something like "A Player's 36 hours do > not > > include time between 0000 GMT Saturday and 0000 GMT Monday, but e > may take > > eir turn during that time." > > I just cut+pasted this from the current ruleset. I will rewrite it at > some point (unless you want to do it). I could. > > > x.1 - Moving > > > > > > Zone + Bk > > > > Clarify how one figures . (Or have we decided?) > > We decided that would be the zone the move was finished at. I'll > update the ruleset sometime. I could, if you want me to. > > > x.1 - Actions > > > > > > Allowable exchanges are: > > > 10Br -> 1Si > > > 1Si -> 10Br > > > > We could just say that "The reverse of any Exchange listed below is > also > > acceptable," and save ourselves a line on each exchange. > > It won't save any space in the GSD and the sentence is longer than the > extra space taken in the ruleset. Or 10Br = 1Si. Also, if and/or when we add more, it would be easier than having each one. > > David's evil thought of the day: Use the actual times between the > > stations for time, according to LUL. > > Hmmm. I wonder if we could make this work. Some form of table or > program would be required to do the sums. I still don't want time, but > if we have it we could consider this. I was thinking to just label them on the map. Then you could do them yourself, based on the route you took. (with tables or programs available if you wanted them) > > * Aldgate becomes an interchange station. (2nd case above) > > I'm not sure Aldgate or Barking should be interchanges, but your > definition is so nice I can put up with it. Barking is on the official map as an interchange. > > * Hight Street Kensington becomes an interchange station, because > the > > Edgware Road branch does not continue with the Circle. > > Interesting, let me play Holmes for a while. The maps I have don't > show that High Street Kensington is a terminus for some branches of > the District line (though not the Edgware Road branch), so either you > have a different map to me, or you've been there. Now I can't see any > reason why a map would incorrectly mark the Edgware Road branch as > terminating at HSK, so I conclude that you've been there. OK then, time to play Moriarty to your Holmes. Actually, my point was that it turns west south of HSK, while Circle turns east, and I worded it oddly. > But you aren't in Britain now (unless you've setup your computer up > wrong and work nights). So I hypothesize that you are either a) A > Briton living in the Americas or b) A North or South American who > went on holiday to London. > > Now the fact you put "1 August" in the subject header suggests you are > not originally American as an American would use "August 1". You could > be from Canada/Cuba/Bolivia/Chilli if they write dates European style, > but I will conclude you are originally British. I think it is more > likely that an ex-pat would want to play MC than a random Canadian and > I doubt Cuba/Bolivia/Chilli have enough internet users to be > statistically significant. > > Either way you spent some time waiting for a train at HSK (normal), > enough to ingrain the fact that the district line has a terminus > there. But not regularly otherwise you would know which branches > terminate there. Now you seem to have some degree of familiarlity > with the LU map, so I think you probably lived in London at some > point, but never had cause to regularly get off at HSK (as they say). > > How did I do Watson? Not all that well, I'm afraid. Native U. S. of A. resident of British extraction. (My father grew up near Glasgow, and from somewhere near Manchester several generations back on the other side of the family tree.) Try to get back regularly, and usually hang around London for a day while I'm there. Used the non-American date format because a.) this list is for a game about London, and b.) Our way of putting things is, to be blunt, idiotic.~ > > > terminus: A terminus station is one that has only one > adjacent > > > station. > > > > ...on the line? > > Good point. > > terminus: A terminus station is one that has exactly one adjacent > station on some line. Exactly. I'd also say that you can only claim your terminus bonus if you're on the line that terminates at that station. From riffraff@n... Wed Aug 02 20:49:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 891 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 03:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 03:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 03:49:15 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA02684 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:48:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:53:54 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Draft Ruleset X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> Well, it depends on when you play it. If it's your first Action >after your >> Move, you get a post-move phase's worth of effect. > >If you do something really evil that lasts a round it is only fair >that it affects you as well. But will it affect you for one turn, or for one turn plus an extra phase? We could stipulate that those type of Actions must be played as either the first or last Action of the phase - then, if you play it as the first Action of your post-move phase (say), then it lasts until the beginning of your next post-move phase; if you play it at the end of the phase, it lasts until the -end- of your next post-move phase. >Make "occupy" mean the current location (the piece is stationary). And >use "has occupied during this turn" for situations where it is needed >(I don't think there are many). Yeah, that was my intent, really - sloppy wording. cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From palnatoke@g... Wed Aug 02 21:33:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6183 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 04:33:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 04:33:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 04:33:18 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p461-79.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.137.79]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e734XGD29123 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 06:33:17 +0200 Message-ID: <00b901bffd04$051c4ae0$4f892fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: <000201bffcc1$96ef0e00$294b08c3@snow> Subject: Re: Re: Re: 01 August Ruleset Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 06:30:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Snow wrote (quoting David (Hi David, btw!)): : > * Hight Street Kensington becomes an interchange station, because : the : > Edgware Road branch does not continue with the Circle. :=20 : Interesting, let me play Holmes for a while. The maps I have don't : show that High Street Kensington is a terminus for some branches of : the District line (though not the Edgware Road branch), so either you : have a different map to me, or you've been there. Now I can't see any : reason why a map would incorrectly mark the Edgware Road branch as : terminating at HSK, so I conclude that you've been there. I seem to remember a discussion on one of the relevant newsgroups, maybe uk= .london.transport - nah, but something similar. Anyways, there is something fishy about the District line, and HSK being a = terminal for one of the sub-lines does ring a bell. Ole -- Ole Andersen Br=F8ndby=F8ster, Denmark palnatoke@g... The test of ahimsa is the absence of jealousy. The man whose heart never cherishes even the thought of injury to anyone, who rejoices at the prosperity of even his greatest enemy, that man is the bhakta, he is the yogi, he is the guru of all. -Swami Vivekananda (1863-1902) From riffraff@n... Wed Aug 02 21:57:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26314 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 04:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 04:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 04:57:33 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA07395 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 00:56:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 01:02:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: 01 August Ruleset X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> * Aldgate becomes an interchange station. (2nd case above) > >I'm not sure Aldgate or Barking should be interchanges, but your >definition is so nice I can put up with it. Well, personally I just think Barking should be an interchange simply because it's marked that way on the map, and Aldgate shouldn't be, because it isn't. I really (really _really_) do _not_ want to have to deal with having to remember which stations marked as interchanges on the map aren't *really* interchanges, and vice-versa. I'm not in London (and my last visit was long ago), so can you tell me what makes an interchange an interchange, in actual RL usage? My assumption was that some multiple-line Stations aren't marked as interchanges because it's more difficult or impossible to change lines there. Why is Moorgate an interchange, and not Barbican? >Regardless, we can't make rules based on anything except what the map >looks like and all the maps I have don't show the terminus at HSK. I don't understand how it could possibly be a terminus anyway - neither line terminates there! Is it just the map I'm looking at? I only have the Xoom one, and the poster I made my RL game-board from - it doesn't have a date, but it has the North London and Thameslink BR lines, Ongar, and construction from Westferry to Beckton, if that helps. > >> > terminus: A terminus station is one that has only one >adjacent >> > station. >> >> ...on the line? > >Good point. > >terminus: A terminus station is one that has exactly one adjacent >station on some line. I've only just now noticed that (for example) the District line terminates at Edgware Road. Had we been playing that as a terminus before? I'd only been thinking of the little T-shaped stations as Terminii. I feel a bit silly... --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Wed Aug 02 22:07:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15679 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA07863 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 01:07:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 01:12:26 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Green Stations may be few, but there not as inaccessable as Termini. I >think Bronze will be more difficult to get than Green. I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. Particularly if it's going to take 10 of them to make a Silver! I really think they should be at BR Stations, with a Silver or two Plastics at Terminii - if we want people to move to the outer reaches of the board, there needs to be a worthwhile reward there. Also, I'd like to keep the old metallic values of 8 Br = 2 Si = 1 Go, or possibly 16 Br = 4 Si = 1 Go. (The current rules file only has the exchange from Br to Si - what do you have in mind for Si to Go?) >I still think >this problem would be better solved by making Tokens more available. >Also the [Droping ] Action might be allowed more than once per >Turn, though that would bring back the "place token and do Action in >same turn" problem. > >Let's include it for now, and review it after a test game. Though only >non-metallics should be allowed. Okay. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Wed Aug 02 22:11:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24395 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 05:11:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 05:11:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 05:11:35 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA08043 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 01:10:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 01:16:18 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: Re: 01 August Ruleset X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >: Interesting, let me play Holmes for a while. The maps I have don't >: show that High Street Kensington is a terminus for some branches of >: the District line (though not the Edgware Road branch), so either you >: have a different map to me, or you've been there. Now I can't see any >: reason why a map would incorrectly mark the Edgware Road branch as >: terminating at HSK, so I conclude that you've been there. > >I seem to remember a discussion on one of the relevant newsgroups, maybe >uk.london.transport - nah, but something similar. >Anyways, there is something fishy about the District line, and HSK being a >terminal for one of the sub-lines does ring a bell. How confusing! Is it a _secret_? Are there lots of extra Underground lines noone's supposed to know about? Maybe you _can_ take the tube to British Museum! --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Thu Aug 03 07:36:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9036 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 14:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 14:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 14:36:25 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.243] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13KM6g-0005nZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:36:22 +0100 Message-ID: <005401bffd57$e1bff8e0$f38d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:53:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff said: > >Green Stations may be few, but there not as inaccessable as Termini. I > >think Bronze will be more difficult to get than Green. > > I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. I've already rewritten the Token bonuses twice based on what you've said; make up your mind. > Particularly if it's going > to take 10 of them to make a Silver! I wrote the Exchange Action from memory, I thought it was 10Br=1Si. I will rewrite it. Is 4Br=1Si OK? > The current rules file only > has the exchange from Br to Si - what do you have in mind for Si to Go?) Dunno really. But I've already made my feelings about having 3 exchangable Token types clear. I was thinking of Token Running, put a Silver on 2 Termini and get a Gold. Though that's probably too difficult. >>> * Aldgate becomes an interchange station. (2nd case above) >> >>I'm not sure Aldgate or Barking should be interchanges, but your >>definition is so nice I can put up with it. > >Well, personally I just think Barking should be an interchange simply >because it's marked that way on the map, and Aldgate shouldn't be, because >it isn't. I really (really _really_) do _not_ want to have to deal with >having to remember which stations marked as interchanges on the map aren't >*really* interchanges, and vice-versa. The trouble with the map version is that it marks a lot of BR stations as interchanges. And which are marked varies according to what map you look at. "An interchange is a Station that contains more than 1 non-co-situated line type." Co-situated is redefined to mean where two lines are "drawn together" on the map for the whole length between two stations. This doesn't allow line branches like N.Acton or Camden Town, but should be pretty easy to read from the map. >>If you do something really evil that lasts a round it is only fair >>that it affects you as well. > >But will it affect you for one turn, or for one turn plus an extra phase? > >We could stipulate that those type of Actions must be played as either the >first or last Action of the phase - then, if you play it as the first >Action of your post-move phase (say), then it lasts until the beginning of >your next post-move phase; if you play it at the end of the phase, it lasts >until the -end- of your next post-move phase. OK, let's do that. -- Snow I suddenly only need 7.5 hrs sleep. I used to need 9hrs. I wonder what to do with my extra 1.5hrs/day. From snowl@s... Thu Aug 03 07:36:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6531 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 14:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 14:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 14:36:26 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.243] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13KM6h-0005nZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:36:24 +0100 Message-ID: <005501bffd57$e2aaf520$f38d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: 01 August Ruleset Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:18:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" David said: > > I just cut+pasted this from the current ruleset. I will rewrite it at > > some point (unless you want to do it). > > I could. Sure, anything you want to put in the ruleset just post it here and if nobody objects it'll go in. The same applies to anyone. Of course if it involves time/possessions/charge/movement/nomic...etc expect a lot of objections :-) > > We decided that would be the zone the move was finished at. I'll > > update the ruleset sometime. > > I could, if you want me to. It's only one line, it'll be easiest to write it straight into the ruleset. > > How did I do Watson? > > Not all that well, I'm afraid. Fair enough. It was a long shot, but worth it for the smug feeling I would have had if I was right. > > terminus: A terminus station is one that has exactly one adjacent > > station on some line. > > Exactly. I'd also say that you can only claim your terminus bonus if > you're on the line that terminates at that station. Hmm. All the other bonuses are based on the station rather than the position within the station. You can't be on a BR line, but, you can still claim the bonus for a BR Station. -- Snow Hurrah. Sliders is back. From snowl@s... Thu Aug 03 07:36:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12637 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 14:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 14:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 14:36:28 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.243] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13KM6j-0005nZ-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:36:25 +0100 Message-ID: <005601bffd57$e35a6f00$f38d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: RL interchanges Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:21:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff wrote: > I'm not in London (and my last visit was long ago), so can you tell me what > makes an interchange an interchange, in actual RL usage? My assumption was > that some multiple-line Stations aren't marked as interchanges because it's > more difficult or impossible to change lines there. Why is Moorgate an > interchange, and not Barbican? Co-situated stations (eg Sloane Square) mean all lines travel on the same track. So Sloane Square only has 2 platforms and 2 tracks (1 for each direction). I assume Barbican is the same. Interchange stations are both housed in the same building (or on the same site when above surface). So Picadilly Circus allows you to travel between lines by going down a few tunnels. I assume Moorgate is the same. Once inside the station you needn't leave it or pass through ticket-gates to change lines. BR "interchanges" like Vauxhall and Waterloo have the BR station above ground and the LU station under it; usually accessable from inside the BR Station. I assume Barbican and Moorgate are the same. AFAICT that only leaves Shepherd's Bush, Edgware Road and Turnham Green. I've never been to any of these, so I couldn't say whether they exist on the same site or are split into 2 separate stations. My guess would be that they occupy the same site, but you have to leave the station and reenter it to change line (this can happen at Victoria if you make a wrong turning). > >Regardless, we can't make rules based on anything except what the map > >looks like and all the maps I have don't show the terminus at HSK. > > I don't understand how it could possibly be a terminus anyway - neither > line terminates there! Is it just the map I'm looking at? No, none of the maps I have show the terminus. HSK has 3 platforms. 2 for the north/south bound Circle/District lines (both lines on the same tracks). It also has another platform that terminates the district line comeing from Wimbledon, Ealing Broadway and Richmond. Most trains carry on to Edgware Road, but some terminate at HSK. Obviously since there is only 1 platform one train must leave before another can arrive. The only other thing to say about HSK is that trains wait there forever before going on south. -- Snow Falling through misty impersonations. From riffraff@n... Thu Aug 03 12:54:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8925 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 19:54:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 19:54:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 19:54:36 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21680 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:53:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:59:04 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Riff said: >> >Green Stations may be few, but there not as inaccessable as >Termini. I >> >think Bronze will be more difficult to get than Green. >> >> I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. > >I've already rewritten the Token bonuses twice based on what you've >said; make up your mind. Okay okay - here's my last word on what I think they should be, then: Green Station: +1 Gr BR Station: +1 Br Zone x: +x Bk Interchange: choice of +1 Rd or +1 Bu Terminus (above zone 2): either +1 Rd and +1 Bu, or +1 Si (I'm unsure which would be better - what do you think? I'm leaning towards the +1 Rd +1 Bu.) > >> Particularly if it's going >> to take 10 of them to make a Silver! > >I wrote the Exchange Action from memory, I thought it was 10Br=1Si. I >will rewrite it. Is 4Br=1Si OK? Fine. :) > >> The current rules file only >> has the exchange from Br to Si - what do you have in mind for Si to >Go?) > >Dunno really. But I've already made my feelings about having 3 >exchangable Token types clear. I was thinking of Token Running, put a >Silver on 2 Termini and get a Gold. Though that's probably too >difficult. Yeah... wouldn't want people stealing the Silver while you move to the next terminus... What if we make Br and Si freely exchangable, but Si and Go exchangable only at Bank? >The trouble with the map version is that it marks a lot of BR stations >as interchanges. And which are marked varies according to what map you >look at. Well, that's why we have the one 'official' map at Xoom... > >"An interchange is a Station that contains more than 1 non-co-situated >line type." Co-situated is redefined to mean where two lines are >"drawn together" on the map for the whole length between two stations. >This doesn't allow line branches like N.Acton or Camden Town, but >should be pretty easy to read from the map. Well, according the the Xoom map, those two aren't interchanges anyway, so that's fine. However, it does prevent interchanges with one line turning on itself, like Poplar, Woodford, and Chalfont & Latimer. There's also a question of the bit of Jubilee under construction - Westminster, for instance, would be counted as an interchange, but it isn't marked because noone was officially using that line yet. How about we call stations under construction interchanges for purposes of changing line, but only co-located for purposes of bonus? Those that actually are interchanges would only be counted as such if you're on a line that is involved with the marked interchange (i.e. London Bridge is only an interchange if you're on the Northern line). This would be similar to Edgware Road, which isn't an interchange if you're on the Bakerloo. The only Station that I see on the map as really being 'incorrectly' marked is Queen's Park. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From david@d... Thu Aug 03 16:02:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27048 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 23:02:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 23:02:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 23:02:05 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id SAA07184 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:00:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:00:41 -0500 (CDT) To: Mornomic Subject: MN: Re: RL interchanges In-Reply-To: <005601bffd57$e35a6f00$f38d7ed4@snow> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch A few random thoughts about maps and such... We are trying for accuracy with reality, but it seems to me that we could make a couple minor changes from the LUL map on our official map for the purpose of gameplay, such as dropping the Queen's Park non-interchange. Also, why not update the map for the Jubilee Extension? If I understand the current discussion, we're essentially going to treat the "under construction" section as a regular line with all co-located stations rather than interchanges. It would seem just as easy to use the real line. From riffraff@n... Thu Aug 03 16:11:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 753 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2000 23:11:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2000 23:11:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 23:11:56 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA17238 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:11:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:16:39 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: RL interchanges X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >A few random thoughts about maps and such... > >We are trying for accuracy with reality, but it seems to me that we could >make a couple minor changes from the LUL map on our official map for the >purpose of gameplay, such as dropping the Queen's Park non-interchange. > >Also, why not update the map for the Jubilee Extension? If I understand >the current discussion, we're essentially going to treat the "under >construction" section as a regular line with all co-located stations >rather than interchanges. It would seem just as easy to use the real >line. Well, previously we had a Hard Hat possession that you had to be wearing to travel on the under-construction line. I'm thinking on a re-working of that for after we've finalized the basic rules, and start adding more complicated suppliments. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From kevan@s... Sat Aug 05 07:07:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7908 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 14:07:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 14:07:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ef.egroups.com) (10.1.2.111) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 14:07:12 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.126] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2000 14:07:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:07:11 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Random Response Message-ID: <8mh72f+qgv5@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5003 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.188.136.214 From: "Kevan " Mm, hello. Sorry I've been so quiet lately. Haven't really been able to find the time to get up to speed with things and chip in, lately. For what it's worth, though, some comments to bits and pieces spoken over the past week or so:- >We could stipulate that those type of Actions must be played as either the >first or last Action of the phase - The Shunting stuff does (or did, or *should*) say that it's only performable as the first Action; I think we might have done this for Clamping as well, as a way to "attach" the Action to the Move. Which is useful. Last-Action Actions seem fairly frivolous, though. >then, if you play it as the first >Action of your post-move phase (say), then it lasts until the beginning of >your next post-move phase; if you play it at the end of the phase, it lasts >until the -end- of your next post-move phase. Nastily confusing. I think everything should just last until the end of your next Turn, since pretty much all game-wide horrors are going to be played Post-Move anyway. We can always chuck exceptions into the text of Actions, when we need them. >I've only just now noticed that (for example) the District line terminates >at Edgware Road. Had we been playing that as a terminus before? Mm, I remember doing a particularly viscious Ruttsborough Slingshot from Hammersmith, in one game... >I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. Particularly if it's going >to take 10 of them to make a Silver! Are we keeping Zone Passes, though? >We are trying for accuracy with reality, but it seems to me that we could >make a couple minor changes from the LUL map on our official map for the >purpose of gameplay, such as dropping the Queen's Park non- interchange. Hm, I'd hope that the ruleset would be robust enough for us to play it on whatever map we had to hand (provided we were all using the same one, naturally). Some varyingly piffling and terse comments on the impressive-looking Ruleset, while I'm here:- >A move consists of a series of steps. I applaud this. Very clear way of putting it. >Players cannot claim a Token bonus for a Station landed on if the Player >has claimed a Token bonus for that Station within eir last 3 Turns. Hm, this strikes me as annoying to remember, at first, but probably isn't that bad in practice. We'll see. >The Station of Mornington Crescent is closed. "..., by default, closed." sounds more understandable. >unless they play [Open MC]. "...during their Pre-Move phase." >A Player may not have less than 0 tokens of any type. That's rather obvious, isn't it? And caught by the "can't spend Tokens you don't have" things anyway. Trimming of extraneous stuff like this is something we should try and do all along, I think. It is pleasing that the Ruleset reads far more like something you'd get printed on the inside of a box lid. I trust we can keep it so. >[Block ] > >A station can be blocked using the block action, provided the blocking >player is at a station adjacent to the station to be blocked. Hm, might it be wise to break convention and just write this as "[Block ]"? >MC may not be blocked. What? Why not? >Move Hm, why is this listed as an Action when 2.2 clearly separates Actions from Moves? >The Open MC Action may be played to allow a Player to move to Mornington >Crescent. MC will remain open only during the Turn it was played in. Just saying "Mornington Crescent becomes Open for the rest of the Turn" would be more precise and catch-all. >[Pick up ] Hm, so we're losing the ability to pick up Tokens from Stations we've passed through? >blocked: When a station is closed [...] Tish. >closed: When a station is closed a piece may occupy it. No player may >occupy a closed Station. Don't these two contradict? And what if a Station closes while you're on it? It really should just be "may not Step to it", with an appropriate amendment to 3.1 ("A Player may not Step to a Blocked or Closed Station.") >line/zone: A thing on the map. Excellent. >line change: A line change occurs when a Player steps from a Station on >one Line to a Station on a different Line. Hm, does it? What about flipping between Lines as you sail around the Circle? >Occupy: On a Player's turn, the Stations e started and ended eir Move >at, as well as any Station moved to or from using piece-moving Actions, >are considered to have been occupied by that Player during that turn. Confusing. At the end of my Turn, I'm considered to "Occupy" several Stations at once? I'm even considered to Occupy them before I've made my Move? >pass through: A Station is passed through if it has been stepped to or >from during a Player's Move. Hm, would this be better as "to *and* from"? Nitpicking, anyway. Nice to see such progression of things, and I thoroughly look forward to playing a test game. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Plagiarise. Let no-one else's work evade your eyes." From riffraff@p... Sat Aug 05 10:38:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26269 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 17:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 17:38:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail10.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 17:38:00 -0000 Received: œby mail10.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13700; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 09:40:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 09:40:56 -0700 Message-Id: <200008051640.JAA13700@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [216.69.223.249] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: RE: MN: Random Response From: "RiffRaff ." >>I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. Particularly if >>it's going to take 10 of them to make a Silver! > >Are we keeping Zone Passes, though? They've kind of been replaced by the Black Token bonus for Zones. Also, I'm looking to replace Possessions with Player States and Podumes. (I can go ahead and explain my plans for that now, if you (collective) like, but I don't think we should include it in the rules until later on.) > >>We are trying for accuracy with reality, but it seems to me that we >>could make a couple minor changes from the LUL map on our official >>map for the purpose of gameplay, such as dropping the Queen's Park >>non-interchange. > >Hm, I'd hope that the ruleset would be robust enough for us to play >it on whatever map we had to hand (provided we were all using the >same one, naturally). I rather agree... the original version was straightforward enough that we used *foreign* subway maps with little to no alteration... I think that if it's that important to not play Queen's Park as an interchange, we should find a different map to play on, rather than trying to make confusing changes to the existing one. >>Players cannot claim a Token bonus for a Station landed on if the >>Player has claimed a Token bonus for that Station within eir last 3 >>Turns. > >Hm, this strikes me as annoying to remember, at first, but probably >isn't that bad in practice. We'll see. The GSD would make it relatively simple online. RL play would be harder, but shouldn't be insurmountable... you could use colored pegs or something to track where you've been, if you can't remember. >>[Block ] >> >>A station can be blocked using the block action, provided the >>blocking player is at a station adjacent to the station to be >>blocked. > >Hm, might it be wise to break convention and just write this as >"[Block ]"? Or we could use Fosdyke Notation... what would that be, ? > >>MC may not be blocked. > >What? Why not? Er, good question. I missed that... >>[Pick up ] > >Hm, so we're losing the ability to pick up Tokens from Stations we've >passed through? I think the reasoning behind this is that being able to easily pick up Tokens would make Gambits far too difficult... thus you can only pick them up at the cost of a Green. >>closed: When a station is closed a piece may occupy it. No player >>may occupy a closed Station. > >Don't these two contradict? And what if a Station closes while you're >on it? It really should just be "may not Step to it", with an >appropriate amendment to 3.1 ("A Player may not Step to a Blocked or >Closed Station.") Well, that makes them effectively the same thing. The distinction of Closed Stations before was that you could move through them, but not land on them. What about something like, "A player may step to a Closed Station, but may not end eir Move there." >And what if a Station closes while you're on it? I believe the way we played it before was that you could stay there, but if you moved off of it you couldn't move back. >>Occupy: On a Player's turn, the Stations e started and ended eir >>Move at, as well as any Station moved to or from using piece-moving >>Actions, are considered to have been occupied by that Player during >>that turn. > >Confusing. At the end of my Turn, I'm considered to "Occupy" several >Stations at once? I'm even considered to Occupy them before I've made >my Move? That was sloppy wording on my part. It's not that you occupy them, but rather that you _occupied_ them, past tense. The point was to make a distinction between Stations that you occupied during the turn, and Stations that you merely passed through... but at any particular point in time, you only _occupy_ the Station you're located at right then. > >>pass through: A Station is passed through if it has been stepped to >>or from during a Player's Move. > >Hm, would this be better as "to *and* from"? Ooh, that's very good... saves having to explain that the first and last Stations aren't included. (Why didn't I think of that?) > >Nitpicking, anyway. Nice to see such progression of things, and I >thoroughly look forward to playing a test game. Yes indeed! --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - the number one place on the net for Powerpuff Stuff! http://fm.powerpuff.com POWERPUFF-FM: cartoon bits & anime hits - LISTEN NOW! From snowl@s... Sat Aug 05 11:26:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26637 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 18:26:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 18:26:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 18:26:23 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.52] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13L8eL-000CUR-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:26:22 +0100 Message-ID: <003a01bfff0a$572ebd60$344c08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:37:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff wrote: > Okay okay - here's my last word on what I think they should be, then: > > Green Station: +1 Gr > BR Station: +1 Br > Zone x: +x Bk > Interchange: choice of +1 Rd or +1 Bu > Terminus (above zone 2): either +1 Rd and +1 Bu, or +1 Si (I'm unsure which > would be better - what do you think? I'm leaning towards the +1 Rd +1 Bu.) I don't like the choice thing. If nothing else it prevent the GSD from being a complete record of the game (unless we add some method of indicating the choice). Green Station: +1 Gr BR Station: +1 Br Zone x: +x Bk Interchange: +1 Rd Terminus (above zone 2): Token Running 2Si = 1Go. And lose Blue Tokens. I'm not keen on game-wide Actions anyway. I suppose we'll have to keep Dollis Hill loops, but we can just make them very expensive (5Re, 1Go) and then lose all the rest. > >Silver on 2 Termini and get a Gold. Though that's probably too > >difficult. > > Yeah... wouldn't want people stealing the Silver while you move to the next > terminus... What if we make Br and Si freely exchangable, but Si and Go > exchangable only at Bank? Even you must admit that there is no point having both Br and Si if you can change between the 2 at will. Let's leave Br->Si exchanges at Bank and make a Si->Go exchange at termini (called Token Running). -- Snow Yoddeling zebra paid overtime. From snowl@s... Sat Aug 05 11:26:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11064 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 18:26:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 18:26:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 18:26:24 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.52] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13L8eN-000CUR-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:26:23 +0100 Message-ID: <003b01bfff0a$5822e160$344c08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: Re: RL interchanges Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:38:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" David wrote: > A few random thoughts about maps and such... > > We are trying for accuracy with reality, but it seems to me that we could > make a couple minor changes from the LUL map on our official map for the > purpose of gameplay, such as dropping the Queen's Park non-interchange. Great idea. We can make up the interchange rule via some sensible consistant means and then edit the map to match. > Also, why not update the map for the Jubilee Extension? If I understand > the current discussion, we're essentially going to treat the "under > construction" section as a regular line with all co-located stations > rather than interchanges. It would seem just as easy to use the real > line. Yes, there's no point complicating the matter with under-construction lines that don't exist anymore. We should just make a copy of the current map from the LU website and put it on Xoom. -- Snow Repeating everything David says through inability to think of anything original to say myself. From snowl@s... Sat Aug 05 11:26:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32553 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 18:26:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 18:26:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 18:26:26 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.52] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13L8eO-000CUR-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:26:24 +0100 Message-ID: <003c01bfff0a$58eac540$344c08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <8mh72f+qgv5@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Random Response Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:10:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" The ruleset has been updated appropriatly. http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomid-d/ I only reply to parts that require discussion. > >then, if you play it as the first > >Action of your post-move phase (say), then it lasts until the > beginning of > >your next post-move phase; if you play it at the end of the phase, > it lasts > >until the -end- of your next post-move phase. > > Nastily confusing. I think everything should just last until the end > of > your next Turn, since pretty much all game-wide horrors are going to > be > played Post-Move anyway. We can always chuck exceptions into the text > of Actions, when we need them. Hmm. I must read stuff more carefully. Riff's wording means something entirly different to what I thought it said. I'd go along with Kevan's suggestion. > >I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. Particularly if > it's going > >to take 10 of them to make a Silver! > > Are we keeping Zone Passes, though? Dunno. Depends what happens about possessions really. > >unless they play [Open MC]. > > "...during their Pre-Move phase." Superfluous if [Open MC] is a pre-move Action. > >A Player may not have less than 0 tokens of any type. > > That's rather obvious, isn't it? And caught by the "can't spend Tokens > you don't have" things anyway. There are 3 things to say about having less than 0 Tokens, but I can never remember what they all are at the same time and end up writing the same thing twice. I'll think about this for a while. > >[Block ] > > > >A station can be blocked using the block action, provided the > blocking > >player is at a station adjacent to the station to be blocked. > > Hm, might it be wise to break convention and just write this as > "[Block ]"? Maybe. What do others think? > >MC may not be blocked. > > What? Why not? Because it's a trivially easy way to stop a win. But we haven't discussed it yet; it's just a place holder. > >Move > > Hm, why is this listed as an Action when 2.2 clearly separates Actions > from Moves? It does put the format for the GSD in the same place as the Actions. But there's no real reason for it to be there really. Do you want it gone? > Hm, so we're losing the ability to pick up Tokens from Stations we've > passed through? Dunno. I don't see why we shouldn't be able to now we have a charge for it. Do others agree? --Snow 6hrs sleep and I still feel great. I won't need sleep at all by the end of the month. From riffraff@n... Sat Aug 05 15:03:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5214 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 22:03:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 22:03:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 22:03:58 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA02726 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:03:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:08:42 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Even you must admit that there is no point having both Br and Si if >you can change between the 2 at will. Let's leave Br->Si exchanges at >Bank and make a Si->Go exchange at termini (called Token Running). Okay, that sounds good. >I don't like the choice thing. If nothing else it prevent the GSD from >being a complete record of the game (unless we add some method of >indicating the choice). > >Green Station: +1 Gr >BR Station: +1 Br >Zone x: +x Bk >Interchange: +1 Rd >Terminus (above zone 2): Token Running 2Si = 1Go. > >And lose Blue Tokens. I'm not keen on game-wide Actions anyway. I >suppose we'll have to keep Dollis Hill loops, but we can just make >them very expensive (5Re, 1Go) and then lose all the rest. Eeek. I'm not sure I like the idea of losing a Plastic... the Blue Tokens aren't necessarily all game-wide actions, just Actions that don't target specific Players, i.e. Blocking, Bulkheading, Token Stack manipulation, and so forth... We'd have to lose the thematic value of the Token colors, which makes the Action costs rather less interesting IMO. I know! I was talking before about possibly having a token bonus for route, why don't we bring in the Blue Tokens that way? Say, +1 Bu for every 3 Interchanges passed through. That means you have to spend at least 2 Black tokens to move that quickly, and in Zone 1, where interchanges are plentiful, you only get one Black token back from the Zone bonus - therefore, we don't have to worry about people hoarding the Blues up with any rate of speed. Howzat? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Sat Aug 05 15:13:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20675 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 22:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 22:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 22:13:05 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA03508 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:12:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:17:49 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Random Response X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >> Nastily confusing. I think everything should just last until the end >> of >> your next Turn, since pretty much all game-wide horrors are going to >> be >> played Post-Move anyway. We can always chuck exceptions into the >text >> of Actions, when we need them. > >Hmm. I must read stuff more carefully. Riff's wording means >something entirly different to what I thought it said. I'd go along >with Kevan's suggestion. Okay, I can agree. I guess if there's some -beneficial- effect that lasts a full round, there's no real reason to stop someone playing it pre-move and getting nearly two turn's worth - after all, eir the one paying for the action and all, so they get a bonus for thinking of it first. > >> >I still don't think Bronze should be that rare. Particularly if >> it's going >> >to take 10 of them to make a Silver! >> >> Are we keeping Zone Passes, though? > >Dunno. Depends what happens about possessions really. I'll go ahead and post my Player State/Podume ideas in a second here. >> >A Player may not have less than 0 tokens of any type. >> >> That's rather obvious, isn't it? And caught by the "can't spend >Tokens >> you don't have" things anyway. > >There are 3 things to say about having less than 0 Tokens, but I can >never remember what they all are at the same time and end up writing >the same thing twice. I'll think about this for a while. Hmmm, I'm trying to guess... is one of them concerned with paying for actions with Tokens you earn later in your Turn? (i.e., buying pre-move Actions with Tokens you earn from the Move Bonus?) > >> >[Block ] >> > >> >A station can be blocked using the block action, provided the >> blocking >> >player is at a station adjacent to the station to be blocked. >> >> Hm, might it be wise to break convention and just write this as >> "[Block ]"? > >Maybe. What do others think? I don't mind... it'd be convienient for cheat-sheet type Action lists. Or, like I said in that message from my other address, we could use the Fosdyke codes for it. >> Hm, so we're losing the ability to pick up Tokens from Stations >we've >> passed through? > >Dunno. I don't see why we shouldn't be able to now we have a charge >for it. Do others agree? I don't have a problem with it, but I think we should leave it for testing to make sure. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Sat Aug 05 15:15:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30985 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 22:15:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 22:15:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 22:15:18 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA03627 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:14:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:20:02 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Great idea. We can make up the interchange rule via some sensible >consistant means and then edit the map to match. (...) >Yes, there's no point complicating the matter with under-construction >lines that don't exist anymore. We should just make a copy of the >current map from the LU website and put it on Xoom. Given the choice, I highly prefer finding a more modern map to use, rather than making artificial-seeming changes to the one we have now. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From geometricity@c... Sat Aug 05 16:37:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2828 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 23:37:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 23:37:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rly-ip01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.156.49) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 23:37:56 -0000 Received: from tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (tot-tr.proxy.aol.com [152.163.201.131]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id TAA11036 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer.crosswinds.net (AC9DC063.ipt.aol.com [172.157.192.99]) by tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e75Nbou01112 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20000805233055.00ab59a0@p...> X-Sender: geometricity@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 23:37:34 +0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Apparently-From: DLwxAustin@a... From: David Lynch At 23:20 8/5/2000, riff wrote: > >Yes, there's no point complicating the matter with under-construction > >lines that don't exist anymore. We should just make a copy of the > >current map from the LU website and put it on Xoom. > >Given the choice, I highly prefer finding a more modern map to use, rather >than making artificial-seeming changes to the one we have now. Ideally, I'd like to see a ruleset written to where you could put in any city's map or any version of the LUL map and still have it work, with the exception of designating another "goal" station in place of MC as necessary. Perhaps a clause saying that before a game begins, someone (the Speaker?) declares the map/goal to be used. There are a lot of little bells and whistles that are specific to London, but that shouldn't necessarialy be the whole point of the game. David Lynch (at home) From palnatoke@g... Sat Aug 05 16:54:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16249 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 23:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 23:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 23:54:17 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p450-90.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.131.218]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e75NsEs03630 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:54:14 +0200 Message-ID: <003201bfff38$873656c0$da832fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: <4.3.2.7.1.20000805233055.00ab59a0@p...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:46:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Daivd wrote: : Ideally, I'd like to see a ruleset written to where you could put in any= =20 : city's map or any version of the LUL map and still have it work, with the= =20 : exception of designating another "goal" station in place of MC as=20 : necessary. Perhaps a clause saying that before a game begins, someone (th= e=20 : Speaker?) declares the map/goal to be used. There are a lot of little bel= ls=20 : and whistles that are specific to London, but that shouldn't necessarialy= =20 : be the whole point of the game. I really cannot see how I could agree more. Only trouble is, what do differ= ent maps show? Do all maps have zones? Do all maps have Interchanges? Do al= l maps have Termini? And - if we make our own definitions of this and that - what do we do, when= our definition clashes with the one on the map? Ole -not sleeping (though I oughta) From riffraff@n... Sat Aug 05 16:57:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5937 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2000 23:57:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Aug 2000 23:57:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 23:57:56 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA10054 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:57:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 20:02:39 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Player States and Podumes X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... [Okay, here we go. Remember, I'm not suggesting this for addition to the basic ruleset we're working on now, but as something to add a little later on after we're ready to start expanding. Also, this is an explanation rather than an exact proposal, so the wording would probably have to be cleaned up.] With the removal of Possessions from the game, any Possession-concerning rules we wish to keep can be converted into either Player States or Podumes. Player States are similar to the Disruptions box on the GSD, but instead of concerning the game as a whole, they list status-changing effects affecting individual Players. Thus, possessions such as: +- Possessions ---------------------------------------------------------+ | Rushton: Narg Clamp, Spoon Clamp, Drone Stick | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ would be replaced with: +- Player States -------------------------------------------------------+ | Rushton: Narged, in Spoon, Drone Master | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Much like the Possessions concerned, the individual rules would specify the exact name of the Player State, and under what conditions it is acquired or removed. Added note: Player States are 'states of being', therefore it's accurate to say "Garden is in Spoon", rather than having to say "Garden has the Player State of 'in Spoon'." (Kinda obvious - I guess that's the Rules Lawyer in me talking.) Podumes: Podumes replace some of the other, stranger Possessions. They are items that give specific extra abilities or bonuses to the Player who possesses them. They are similar to Tokens in certain behaviors: they can be Claimed or Dropped as though they were Tokens, and Shunted as if they were a Token Stack. They may also be stolen by a Shunting player, instead of a Token. When possessed by a player, they are kept track of in a Podumes box on the GSD, similar to the Player States box. When they are located at a Station, they are listed as a Token Stack at the appropriate Station. (A Podume may be located at the same Station as a Token Stack, but two Podumes may not be located at the same Station.) Rules introducing Podumes will specify the Podume's name (natch), as well as the conditions under which it may be Created (brought into the game), and possibly Destroyed (removed from the game). Each Podume is unique; if a Podume is either in the possession of a player or located at a Station, no more Podumes of that same name may be Created until the original has been Destroyed. Here are some examples: Station Podumes: There are five Station Podumes, each associated with a particular type of Station and color of Token. They are: A-to-Z Podume (Black), British Rail Podume (Bronze), Compass Podume (Blue), Terminus Podume (Red), and Verdant Podume (Green). A Station Podume may be Created with the Gambit-type Action [Creating Podume], which may be activated at a cost of two Tokens of the color appropriate to the Station Podume in question, when three Tokens of that color are located at Stations of the appropriate type (i.e. a Compass Podume may be created with the Action [Creating Compass Podume], at a cost of -2 Bu, when 3 Blue Tokens are located at Compass Stations.) When the Station Podume is Created, the 3 Tokens on the board are destroyed, and the Podume is brought into possession of the Actioning player. A Player who possesses a particular Station Podume may claim one extra Token of its related color when claiming the Token Bonus at a Station of the related type. This bonus is cumulative if the Station applies to multiple Station Podumes in the player's possession. A Player who possesses at least three Station Podumes and is located at Bank may perform the Action [Cashing in Station Podumes]. All Station Podumes possessed by that Player are Destroyed, and the player gains +x Go, where x is the number of Podumes Destroyed, minus one. _____ The Doppler Podume: The Doppler Podume may be Created with the Gambit Action [Creating Doppler Podume], at a cost of -1 Rd -1 Bu, when a Red and a Blue Token are located at Terminii outside Zone 2, in opposite Quadrants. The two Tokens are destroyed, and the Doppler Podume is Created and located at Tottenham Court Road. A Player possessing the Doppler Podume may perform the post-move Action [Doppler Effect] (no cost), provided that eir Move involved at least six steps. Upon performing the Action, the player may change one of eir Tokens from Red to Blue, or vice-versa. _____ The Hyde Podume: The Hyde Podume may be Created with the Action [Creating Hyde Podume] (-2 Rd -1 Si), when located at Hyde Park. The Hyde Podume is placed into the Action player's possession. When the Hyde Podume enters a player's possession, the player gains the Player State of "Dr. Jekyll". A Player who is Dr. Jekyll may perform the neutral Action [Hyde Transformation], which costs 1 Rd the first time it is performed by that player, 2 Rd the second time, and so forth. (If the Hyde Podume leaves a player's possession, enters another player's possession, and then *re*-enters the first player's possession, the cost is reset to 1 Rd.) Upon performing the Action, the player loses the Player State "Dr. Jekyll" and gains the Player State "Mr. Hyde". The effect lasts one round, after which the Player State reverts back to "Dr. Jekyll". While a player is Mr. Hyde, e gains an additional free step when moving. Also, any Actions this player makes are reduced in cost by -1 Rd, and Actions by other players that target this player have their costs increased by +1 Rd. When the Hyde Podume leaves a player's possession, e ceases to be either Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. And that's Player States and Podumes. What do you all think? cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From riffraff@n... Sat Aug 05 21:57:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28277 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 04:57:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 04:57:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 04:57:31 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA00867 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 00:56:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:02:16 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Time X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... We should probably attempt to resolve this whole Time thing. We've gone back and forth quite a bit, and don't seem to be able to particularly sway each other's opinions, so maybe we should just have a vote so we can pick something, at least for testing purposes. Here, as I make it, are our choices: A) No time. ("No! _Time_ to lose!") B) Game Time only. After each player's turn, the Game Time is incremented by one hour. After 24 hours, the day of the week is incremented. This has no effect on the length of a player's turn or how many Actions e may perform. C) Game Time & Turn Time. As above, but each player has 60 minutes of turn time for movement and Actions, with the option of purchasing additional hours for 1 Green Token each. Even if the player doesn't use the full 60 minutes, Game Time is nevertheless incremented by 1 hour. D) As above, but the Game Time is incremented by the actual amount of time the player used. (What we had in the previous version of MN.) My vote is for C. I think turn time is still the best bet for limiting the amount of stuff a player may do in one turn, while the 1-hour increments in the Game Time make the peak hours etc. come around quicker - and you don't have to bother with the math if you're not doing much in a turn. So, what does everyone else think? Snow, David, Ole, Paul, Kevan, Dunx? Other lurkers whose name's I've regretfully forgotten? Take a moment out of your busy schedule and cast a vote - it's just one letter. ;-) cheers, --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From geometricity@c... Sat Aug 05 22:28:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24634 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 05:28:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 05:28:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rly-ip02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.160) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 05:28:13 -0000 Received: from tot-wi.proxy.aol.com (tot-wi.proxy.aol.com [205.188.197.1]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA02262 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer.crosswinds.net (AC92B3A8.ipt.aol.com [172.146.179.168]) by tot-wi.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e765S2Z08149 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20000806052348.00aaf620@p...> X-Sender: geometricity@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 05:27:43 +0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges In-Reply-To: <003201bfff38$873656c0$da832fc3@richardmayhew> References: <4.3.2.7.1.20000805233055.00ab59a0@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Apparently-From: DLwxAustin@a... From: David Lynch At 23:46 8/5/2000, you wrote: >Daivd wrote: >: Ideally, I'd like to see a ruleset written to where you could put in any >: city's map or any version of the LUL map and still have it work, with the >: exception of designating another "goal" station in place of MC as >: necessary. Perhaps a clause saying that before a game begins, someone (the >: Speaker?) declares the map/goal to be used. There are a lot of little bells >: and whistles that are specific to London, but that shouldn't necessarialy >: be the whole point of the game. > >I really cannot see how I could agree more. Only trouble is, what do >different maps show? Do all maps have zones? Do all maps have >Interchanges? Do all maps have Termini? >And - if we make our own definitions of this and that - what do we do, >when our definition clashes with the one on the map? > >Ole >-not sleeping (though I oughta) Default to what the map says in all cases. Otherwise, go with the definitions. If there are no zones marked, default to some number of blacks to turn or some system of distance from the center of the map. David Lynch (at Home) From geometricity@c... Sat Aug 05 22:29:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28726 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 05:29:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 05:29:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rly-ip02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.160) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 05:29:52 -0000 Received: from tot-wn.proxy.aol.com (tot-wn.proxy.aol.com [205.188.197.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA03505 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer.crosswinds.net (AC92B3A8.ipt.aol.com [172.146.179.168]) by tot-wn.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e765TkU18747 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20000806051217.00aa9200@p...> X-Sender: geometricity@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 05:29:30 +0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Apparently-From: DLwxAustin@a... From: David Lynch At 06:02 8/6/2000, riffraff wrote: >My vote is for C. As is mine, with B in 2nd. With a related note on the idea of using real time as turn time, the longest 13 station (assuming that 3 free + 10 bk = 13 moves maximum in a round, any time notwithstanding) trip I've found so far is 48 minutes from Chesham to Finchley Road via the Metropolitan. David Lynch (at home) From palnatoke@g... Sun Aug 06 00:09:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4397 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 07:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 07:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 07:09:52 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p451-63.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.132.63]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e7679oD06041 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 09:09:50 +0200 Message-ID: <00ce01bfff75$600d3cc0$3f842fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: <4.3.2.7.1.20000806051217.00aa9200@p...> Subject: Re: MN: Time Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 09:01:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" David wrote: : At 06:02 8/6/2000, riffraff wrote: : >My vote is for C. :=20 : As is mine, with B in 2nd. I'll put D before B, but C is number one. Ole From kevan@s... Sun Aug 06 03:29:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29701 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 10:29:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 10:29:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 10:29:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.122] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2000 10:29:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 10:29:15 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Time Message-ID: <8mjelr+oe79@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 972 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.49.225.148 From: "Kevan " > My vote is for C. I think turn time is still the best bet for limiting the > amount of stuff a player may do in one turn, while the 1-hour increments in > the Game Time make the peak hours etc. come around quicker - and you don't > have to bother with the math if you're not doing much in a turn. I'm tending towards A. The only, only good thing about Game Time, if you ask me, is the ability to strand people at Stations which Close during particular hours. Oh, and the neatness of Damaged Stations being repaired over (Player-influenceable) time. But both of these things are fairly rare - certainly rare enough for Game Time not to be worth the effort of keeping track of constantly, I think. A possible alternative might just be a "Peak Hours / Non-Peak Hours" setting which can be changed with an Action. Hm. Kevan -- kevan@s... http://www.stormloader.com/kevan "Such dodgy motives to lie about the time, but I've got no watch, so..." From snowl@s... Sun Aug 06 03:54:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7460 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 10:54:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 10:54:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 10:54:33 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.118] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13LO4d-000OlA-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:54:32 +0100 Message-ID: <00c601bfff94$5b4d52a0$76877ed4@snow> To: References: <4.3.2.7.1.20000805233055.00ab59a0@p...> <4.3.2.7.1.20000806052348.00aaf620@p...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:12:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" David said: > At 23:46 8/5/2000, you wrote: > >Daivd wrote: > >: Ideally, I'd like to see a ruleset written to where you could put in any > >: city's map or any version of the LUL map and still have it work, with the > >: exception of designating another "goal" station in place of MC as > >: necessary. Perhaps a clause saying that before a game begins, someone (the > >: Speaker?) declares the map/goal to be used. There are a lot of little bells > >: and whistles that are specific to London, but that shouldn't necessarialy > >: be the whole point of the game. > > > >I really cannot see how I could agree more. Only trouble is, what do > >different maps show? Which is exactly why we should use more general definitions. Ones that will work on any map. Then for convienence we can make a few minor changes to a rastor map so we can see at a glance what is an interchange and what is not. If a player can't access Xoom then any map will do, because the definitions produce the same stations however the map is marked. -- Snow Charmed was on and Inspector Morse was on at a different time, maybe I was wrong about the conspiricy. From snowl@s... Sun Aug 06 03:54:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13763 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 10:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 10:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 10:54:34 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.118] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13LO4e-000OlA-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:54:33 +0100 Message-ID: <00c701bfff94$5c16bd20$76877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: Time Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:25:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" ABCD... E) Use time as Turn length regulation, but dump game time. Could somebody tell me exactly what you want to do with game time and why you think it's worth the effort? My vote would be for A followed by E. I know I said we shouldn't change the movement system until we have a working draft for the basic ruleset, but we would have to change it anyway if time was brought in so let me give an alternative. In order to give a game-wide view of a system I will outline a system I have been thinking about. The problem with what we have now is we have been focusing on parts rather than the whole game. The movement is based on something PaulWay said about penalising Players for going through interchanges. There is a fixed number of steps per Turn of 6 say. In addition each interchange counts an extra step (note: changing line must be done at interchanges so costs extra). A fixed number of Actions per Turn of 4. These can be pre- or post-move distributed at the Player's will. (1+3, 2+2...) Black Tokens can be given for going to a termini after having been to the meridian (and vice-versa). They aren't needed to be so plentiful with this system. Blue Tokens can now be given for going through 2 interchanges. Or for something a little different: How about +Bu for passing over a Stack with more than 2 Tokens on it (or more than 2 stacks). Or circling an opponent. Or sticking to the same line. Or crossing the river. Or making a move with a prime number of steps in it. Or moving though 4 stations starting with a vowel. -- Snow Telephoning ostrich paralyzed by Bruce Springstein. From riffraff@n... Sun Aug 06 15:09:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16288 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2000 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Aug 2000 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2000 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA29509 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:08:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:14:07 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >ABCD... > >E) Use time as Turn length regulation, but dump game time. > >Could somebody tell me exactly what you want to do with game time and >why you think it's worth the effort? > >My vote would be for A followed by E. Hmmm... after Kevan's points about Game Time, I think I'll switch my vote to E, followed by C. So far, if we count second choices as half-votes, we've got C a half-vote over A, which is a half-vote over E. >The movement is based on something PaulWay said about penalising >Players for going through interchanges. There is a fixed number of >steps per Turn of 6 say. In addition each interchange counts an extra >step (note: changing line must be done at interchanges so costs >extra). My problem with this is that everyone's limited to a constant rate of speed - in Zone 1, you move slowly, outside Zone 1 you move a bit quicker. With this system, you can't choose to move slowly to conserve Black Tokens, and then spend them on an extra burst of speed when you need it later on. The strategic element of saving up your Black Tokens is lost. > >A fixed number of Actions per Turn of 4. These can be pre- or >post-move distributed at the Player's will. (1+3, 2+2...) I was thinking at first that this might be too many, but considering that the Green tokens you would need to get extra Actions are relatively rare, it sounds good. >Blue Tokens can now be given for going through 2 interchanges. > >Or for something a little different: How about +Bu for passing over a >Stack with more than 2 Tokens on it (or more than 2 stacks). Or >circling an opponent. Or sticking to the same line. Or crossing the >river. Or making a move with a prime number of steps in it. Or moving >though 4 stations starting with a vowel. :) 2 interchanges sounds best to me. Actually, crossing the river is nice thematically, but there aren't enough Stations on the other side IMO. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Mon Aug 07 05:17:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11153 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2000 12:17:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Aug 2000 12:17:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Aug 2000 12:17:25 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.204] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13LlqN-0001cX-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:17:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c00069$190b2220$cc4b08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:07:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > So far, if we count second choices as half-votes, we've got C a half-vote > over A, which is a half-vote over E. Hmm, I've never heard of a voting system that counts 2nd votes as half. But C is ahead whatever system we use. PaulWay, miKi, Gunnar, Dunx, do you want to make yourselves heard? > >The movement is based on something PaulWay said about penalising > >Players for going through interchanges. There is a fixed number of > >steps per Turn of 6 say. In addition each interchange counts an extra > >step (note: changing line must be done at interchanges so costs > >extra). Correction: Line Changes _or_ interchanges cost an extra step (I forgot about co-situated stations). Changing line at an interchange only cost 1 extra step, because they are both the same step. Also 6 might be too low (8 maybe). > My problem with this is that everyone's limited to a constant rate of speed > - in Zone 1, you move slowly, outside Zone 1 you move a bit quicker. With > this system, you can't choose to move slowly to conserve Black Tokens, and > then spend them on an extra burst of speed when you need it later on. The > strategic element of saving up your Black Tokens is lost. I'm not stopping you collecting blacks for bigger moves. You just have to decide how many blacks are to be available and think up a suitable system for distributing them. Eg 1 per Turn, 1 per line change (nice coz line changes are punished by slower moves, so it balances), keep the current zone system (probably too many blacks), token breeding, termini, occupying the same station as an opponent... -- Snow Petrified orange holds secret to massive telephone overhaul. From riffraff@p... Mon Aug 07 05:43:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16696 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2000 12:43:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Aug 2000 12:43:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail11.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Aug 2000 12:43:57 -0000 Received: œby mail11.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02013; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 04:46:24 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 04:46:24 -0700 Message-Id: <200008071146.EAA02013@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [216.69.223.249] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time From: "RiffRaff ." >To: "Mornomic" >From: "Snow" >Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:07:08 +0100 >Reply-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com >Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time > >> So far, if we count second choices as half-votes, we've got C a >half-vote >> over A, which is a half-vote over E. > >Hmm, I've never heard of a voting system that counts 2nd votes as >half. But C is ahead whatever system we use. PaulWay, miKi, Gunnar, >Dunx, do you want to make yourselves heard? That's because I just made it up. I couldn't think of any other way to take them into consideration, offhand. >Correction: Line Changes _or_ interchanges cost an extra step (I >forgot about co-situated stations). Changing line at an interchange >only cost 1 extra step, because they are both the same step. Um... I may be misremembering (I do that), but I think I've always played that line could only be changed at an interchange. Mid-move, at least. Have I been playing wrong? D'oh! First the hidden terminii, now this! >Also 6 >might be too low (8 maybe). 8 sounds good. >I'm not stopping you collecting blacks for bigger moves. You just have >to decide how many blacks are to be available and think up a suitable >system for distributing them. Eg 1 per Turn, 1 per line change (nice >coz line changes are punished by slower moves, so it balances), keep >the current zone system (probably too many blacks), token breeding, >termini, occupying the same station as an opponent... I must've misunderstood, then. Is it 8 *free* steps, and 1 Black each for extras, with Interchanges costing 2 steps? I thought you meant 8 steps, period. Zone bonuses might not be too many Blacks, just -backwards-. In Zone 1, where you'd really need them, you only get 1 per Move, and in the outer Zones you get more, but there aren't nearly as many interchanges out there. We could keep it the same, forcing people to move into the outer Zones to get tokens and then move back to Zone 1, or reverse it, +x Bk where x is 5 minus Zone, say. --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - the number one place on the net for Powerpuff Stuff! http://fm.powerpuff.com POWERPUFF-FM: cartoon bits & anime hits - LISTEN NOW! From snowl@s... Mon Aug 07 14:47:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28645 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2000 21:47:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Aug 2000 21:47:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Aug 2000 21:46:59 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.190] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13LujR-000HPI-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:46:54 +0100 Message-ID: <000501c000b8$ad90bbe0$be837ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <200008071146.EAA02013@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:42:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" RIff wote: > >Correction: Line Changes _or_ interchanges cost an extra step (I > >forgot about co-situated stations). Changing line at an interchange > >only cost 1 extra step, because they are both the same step. > > Um... I may be misremembering (I do that), but I think I've always played that line could only be changed at an interchange. Mid-move, at least. Have I been playing wrong? D'oh! First the hidden terminii, now this! I always played that you could change line at co-situated stations, whether I was right or not is something else. > >I'm not stopping you collecting blacks for bigger moves. You just have > >to decide how many blacks are to be available and think up a suitable > >system for distributing them. Eg 1 per Turn, 1 per line change (nice > >coz line changes are punished by slower moves, so it balances), keep > >the current zone system (probably too many blacks), token breeding, > >termini, occupying the same station as an opponent... > > I must've misunderstood, then. Is it 8 *free* steps, and 1 Black each for extras, with Interchanges costing 2 steps? I thought you meant 8 steps, period. You didn't misunderstand, I just hadn't thought about it one way or the other. To keep the number of blacks in the game sensible we might have 1Bk=2 extra steps and then regulate the blacks more heavily. > Zone bonuses might not be too many Blacks, just -backwards-. In Zone 1, where you'd really > need them, you only get 1 per Move, I'm not sure we "need" to go faster than 4steps/turn in Z1. And 8 outside Z2 may be too much. On the otherhand having Blacks to go faster than you need would be nice, provided they aren't too easy to get hold of. >and in the outer Zones you get more, but there aren't nearly as many interchanges out there. We could keep it the same, forcing people to move into the outer Zones to get tokens and then move back to Zone 1, or reverse it, +x Bk where x is 5 minus Zone, say. This would require the 10Black limit staying in place; I would rather get rid of it if we could. How about +1Bk for a zone change of 3 or more eg Z1->Z4 or Z5->Z2. -- Snow Dancing with penguins. From riffraff@p... Tue Aug 08 09:38:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 588 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2000 16:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Aug 2000 16:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail7.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.38) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Aug 2000 16:38:42 -0000 Received: œby mail7.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21885; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:43:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:43:01 -0700 Message-Id: <200008081643.JAA21885@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [216.69.223.249] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time From: "RiffRaff ." >> Um... I may be misremembering (I do that), but I think I've always >played that line could only be changed at an interchange. Mid-move, >at least. Have I been playing wrong? D'oh! First the hidden >terminii, now this! > >I always played that you could change line at co-situated stations, >whether I was right or not is something else. I'll go look it up... no I won't, I keep forgetting I can't get to Xoom pages from work. I'll look when I get home. >To keep the number of blacks in the game sensible we might have 1Bk=2 >extra steps and then regulate the blacks more heavily. > >> Zone bonuses might not be too many Blacks, just -backwards-. In >Zone 1, where you'd really >> need them, you only get 1 per Move, > >I'm not sure we "need" to go faster than 4steps/turn in Z1. And 8 >outside Z2 may be too much. ...Yeah, I think I agree. >On the otherhand having Blacks to go >faster than you need would be nice, provided they aren't too easy to >get hold of. Right. >>and in the outer Zones you get more, but there aren't nearly as many >interchanges out there. We could keep it the same, forcing people to >move into the outer Zones to get tokens and then move back to Zone 1, >or reverse it, +x Bk where x is 5 minus Zone, say. > >This would require the 10Black limit staying in place; I would rather >get rid of it if we could. Yes, me too. >How about +1Bk for a zone change of 3 or >more eg Z1->Z4 or Z5->Z2. I can't get to the map right now, but I wonder if that might not be a tad _too_ hard... perhaps 2 zones instead? Remember that although Black tokens will primarily be spent on Moves, there'll be some Action and Gambit costs that'll require them too. --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - the number one place on the net for Powerpuff Stuff! http://fm.powerpuff.com POWERPUFF-FM: cartoon bits & anime hits - LISTEN NOW! From snowl@s... Wed Aug 09 12:37:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2263 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2000 19:37:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Aug 2000 19:37:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Aug 2000 19:37:14 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.158] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Mbf2-000LZW-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:37:10 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c00238$d88fc9e0$9e837ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <200008081643.JAA21885@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:47:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff: > ...Yeah, I think I agree. >... > Right. > ... > Yes, me too. > Well, I'm glad we agree, but it's a little academic. Unless anyone else is going to vote I think we should declare C the winner. So a time based movement system is needed. > >How about +1Bk for a zone change of 3 or > >more eg Z1->Z4 or Z5->Z2. > > I can't get to the map right now, but I wonder if that might not be a tad _too_ hard... perhaps 2 zones instead? Remember that although Black tokens will primarily be spent on Moves, there'll be some Action and Gambit costs that'll require them too. Good point; 2 would be better. -- Snow I've found God. He was wandering around at the bottom of my garden. From david@d... Wed Aug 09 18:29:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26779 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2000 01:29:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Aug 2000 01:29:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2000 01:29:56 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id UAA08318 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:29:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:29:20 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: David Lynch To: Mornomic Subject: Time: How? In-Reply-To: <000401c00238$d88fc9e0$9e837ed4@snow> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch As I see it, there are a few different ways to run time. To borrow the format used earlier: A. Reality - Based on published times. It would be interesting, but complicated. We'd have to get time values for every line at every station, and have a way to get that info wherever you want. B. Reality-Based - One value per station, no matter which line, based on a single station as zero. Only makes much of a difference from "reality" at relatively far-out stations which serve multiple lines. C. Map-Based - Similar to charge. Set an arbitrary zero point and base times on distance that. Accurate for trips to/from the City, but not around the edges. D. Zone-Based - Time between stations is based on the zone they're in. E. Fixed - Always the same time between each station. I'd have to go for A first, then B or D - they're about equal. The last two are obviously the easiest from an administrative standpoint. -- David Lynch back at his regular e-mail, but still planning revenge on the person responsible From riffraff@n... Thu Aug 10 01:13:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8692 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2000 08:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Aug 2000 08:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2000 08:13:22 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA11269 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:12:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:18:01 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >As I see it, there are a few different ways to run time. To borrow the >format used earlier: > >A. Reality - Based on published times. It would be interesting, but >complicated. We'd have to get time values for every line at every station, >and have a way to get that info wherever you want. > >B. Reality-Based - One value per station, no matter which line, based >on a single station as zero. Only makes much of a difference from >"reality" at relatively far-out stations which serve multiple lines. > >C. Map-Based - Similar to charge. Set an arbitrary zero point and base >times on distance that. Accurate for trips to/from the City, but not >around the edges. The problem with these is they have to be re-calculated for different maps... merely a pain if it's just a newer map with 3 or 4 new Stations on it, but if we ever wanted to use a foreign map, look out! And, you'd end up with weird decimals and all kinds of bad math - I think times for movement and Actions should be limited to 5 or 10-minute intervals. Plus, consider the implementation: a chart, consisting of not just a list of every Station, but every *Line Segment*, with different numbers for each one. Now imagine having to reference that chart for *every step in your Move.* I know I've said before that I like the occasional chart or complicated rule, but this strikes me as something that'd get old really quickly. > >D. Zone-Based - Time between stations is based on the zone they're in. > >E. Fixed - Always the same time between each station. > >I'd have to go for A first, then B or D - they're about equal. The last >two are obviously the easiest from an administrative standpoint. D is okay, but I prefer E. Nice and smooth, just count up your Stations. I could see possibly adding in D later on as an IMCS Extension, but not in the basic rules. Let's keep it nice and simple for new players. BTW, are we going to keep the '8 free steps per move, interchanges cost double' idea, and just add time costs? --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Thu Aug 10 06:37:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7632 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2000 13:37:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Aug 2000 13:37:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2000 13:37:12 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.182] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13MsWB-000FYW-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:37:08 +0100 Message-ID: <001301c002cf$b78e0e40$b6877ed4@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:13:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Riff wrote: > >As I see it, there are a few different ways to run time. To borrow the > >format used earlier: > > > >A. Reality - > >B. Reality-Based - > >C. Map-Based - > The reality system is appealing, but I think we should probably aim for something simple. > I think times for movement > and Actions should be limited to 5 or 10-minute intervals. I agree. > > > >D. Zone-Based - Time between stations is based on the zone they're in. > > > >E. Fixed - Always the same time between each station. > > > >I'd have to go for A first, then B or D - they're about equal. The last > >two are obviously the easiest from an administrative standpoint. > > D is okay, but I prefer E. Nice and smooth, just count up your Stations D or E would be my choice. I think D could be made to work. We need to propose some systems and see what's what. Here's a system. 10 mins/station (stepped to) in Z1/2 5 mins/station (stepped to) not in Z1/Z2 10 mins/line change x mins/Action Maximum 60mins Stations on the Z2/3 border are counted as Z1/2. Now, Green Tokens are no longer needed. However the green station/bonus system is rather nice so how about we paint all our black tokens green and give black tokens away at green stations? > BTW, are we going to keep the '8 free steps per move, interchanges cost > double' idea, and just add time costs? No. Time replaces free steps. The ideas both solve the same problem, there's no point having both. -- Snow I invented the semi-porous boat. From riffraff@n... Thu Aug 10 10:13:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25516 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2000 17:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Aug 2000 17:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmh-dial.columbus.rr.com) (204.210.252.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2000 17:12:57 -0000 Received: from [24.95.44.135] (dhcp9544135.columbus.rr.com [24.95.44.135]) by cmh-dial.columbus.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01887 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:12:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: riffraff@m... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:17:43 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? X-eGroups-From: riffraff@n... (RiffRaff) From: riffraff@n... >Here's a system. > >10 mins/station (stepped to) in Z1/2 >5 mins/station (stepped to) not in Z1/Z2 >10 mins/line change >x mins/Action > >Maximum 60mins > >Stations on the Z2/3 border are counted as Z1/2. That's pretty good... I like the fact that there's only one 'border' to deal with, rather than making it different for _every_ Zone. Should we put some kind of cap on it? No more than 10 steps, say, so that you can't buy extra hours and make ludicrously long Moves... maybe, "No more than 60 mins per turn may be spent Moving." Also, Line Changes = -1 Bk? Or, how about being able to spend a Black during the Move to knock 10 mins off your time? > >Now, Green Tokens are no longer needed. However the green >station/bonus system is rather nice so how about we paint all our >black tokens green and give black tokens away at green stations? Well, Greens are still good for buying extra hours of Time, and I'm sure we can think of other uses. Gambits and stuff. And I like the +1 Bk per 2 Zones of Movement thing. --Riff "This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence." --Vyvyan, "The Young Ones" From snowl@s... Fri Aug 11 08:22:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10794 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2000 15:22:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Aug 2000 15:22:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Aug 2000 15:22:54 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.244] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13NGe4-000Nma-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:22:53 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c003a7$a7063ec0$f44b08c3@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:50:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > >Here's a system. > > > >10 mins/station (stepped to) in Z1/2 > >5 mins/station (stepped to) not in Z1/Z2 > >10 mins/line change > >x mins/Action > > > >Maximum 60mins > > > >Stations on the Z2/3 border are counted as Z1/2. > > That's pretty good... I like the fact that there's only one 'border' to > deal with, rather than making it different for _every_ Zone. > > Should we put some kind of cap on it? No more than 10 steps, say, so that > you can't buy extra hours and make ludicrously long Moves... maybe, "No > more than 60 mins per turn may be spent Moving." Hmm, buy extra hours? I would rather not cap it and not allow extra hours to be bought. > Also, Line Changes = -1 Bk? Why? Line changes cost time, no extra charge is needed. > >Now, Green Tokens are no longer needed. However the green > >station/bonus system is rather nice so how about we paint all our > >black tokens green and give black tokens away at green stations? > > Well, Greens are still good for buying extra hours of Time, and I'm sure we > can think of other uses. Gambits and stuff. And I like the +1 Bk per 2 > Zones of Movement thing. As I said I don't wat extra hours; for Gambits black/green tokens will do just as well. What I'm suggesting is an amalgomation of green and black into one colour (which happens to be green). Green tokens no longer have any obvious use (unless we allow extra hours), black Tokens are similarly disenfranchised. Together they may do something useful. -- Snow Rabid rabbit Rick rodgers randy Rob. From riffraff@p... Fri Aug 11 10:12:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32343 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2000 17:12:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Aug 2000 17:12:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail14.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Aug 2000 17:12:24 -0000 Received: œby mail14.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25243; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:16:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:16:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200008111716.KAA25243@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [216.69.223.249] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? From: "RiffRaff ." >Hmm, buy extra hours? I would rather not cap it and not allow extra >hours to be bought. Well, that works too. I always liked being able to buy extra time when necessary, but we can always add it in later on after some testing, if we want. >What I'm suggesting is an amalgomation of green and black into one >colour (which happens to be green). Green tokens no longer have any >obvious use (unless we allow extra hours), black Tokens are similarly >disenfranchised. Together they may do something useful. Well... I hate losing a color, but I can't refute your logic. --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - the number one place on the net for Powerpuff Stuff! http://fm.powerpuff.com POWERPUFF-FM: cartoon bits & anime hits - LISTEN NOW! From snowl@s... Mon Aug 14 03:31:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3751 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2000 10:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Aug 2000 10:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Aug 2000 10:31:06 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.196] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13OHWL-000Orr-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:31:05 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c005da$5be02700$c4877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: Actions Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:20:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" A new version of the ruleset is at http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomic-d/ At the bottom of the ruleset is a update log. The Turn and Gambits sections are still a little rough, but the whole thing is approching usability. All we need now are a few Actions like blocking, shunting and some gambits. Snow's stupid idea of the day: Put the GSD header at the foot and call it a footer. This put the details of the game state and player states next to the Turns that have been taken most recently. On the down side it means you have to scroll to the bottom to see what's happening. -- Snow Is the answer: hot lesbian action? From paulway@e... Mon Aug 14 18:21:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13650 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 01:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO midas.onthe.net.au) (203.18.78.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:49 -0000 Received: from scorch ([203.22.196.193]) by midas.onthe.net.au (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e7F1LkN24260 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:21:46 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000815095713.007ad530@o...> X-Sender: paulway@o... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:57:13 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: (unknown) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 06:08 PM 5/08/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I know! I was talking before about possibly having a token bonus >for route, why don't we bring in the Blue Tokens that way? Say, +1 >Bu for every 3 Interchanges passed through. That means you have to >spend at least 2 Black tokens to move that quickly, and in Zone 1, >where interchanges are plentiful, you only get one Black token back >from the Zone bonus - >therefore, we don't have to worry about people hoarding the Blues up >with any rate of speed. Howzat? Sounds brilliant. I'm in favour (for what little that's worth). Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Did this message really come from me? Use PGP to find out! iQA/AwUBOZf6uctA22MsBS7iEQKFpwCfT0rz1w4zC2/xkU+w8gbKozXNVScAoKKx lOeBgZ+s+iP6UfNwfvztCbHz =QyKx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From paulway@e... Mon Aug 14 18:21:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 434 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 01:21:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO midas.onthe.net.au) (203.18.78.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:51 -0000 Received: from scorch ([203.22.196.193]) by midas.onthe.net.au (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e7F1LlN24266 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:21:47 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000815095840.007ad820@o...> X-Sender: paulway@o... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:58:40 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 06:20 PM 5/08/2000 -0500, you wrote: >>Great idea. We can make up the interchange rule via some sensible >>consistant means and then edit the map to match. >>Yes, there's no point complicating the matter with >>under-construction lines that don't exist anymore. We should just >>make a copy of the >>current map from the LU website and put it on Xoom. > >Given the choice, I highly prefer finding a more modern map to use, >rather than making artificial-seeming changes to the one we have >now. Yes, and if we made a map in order to make the ruleset simple and sensible, it wouldn't be MC, would it? :-) Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Did this message really come from me? Use PGP to find out! iQA/AwUBOZf7EMtA22MsBS7iEQLa9ACeJlB0XrrAqC3Xb560QRkyPOwBk8MAoKWr N95ExOBlWnZW86GgtdAxJKLy =s4qx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From paulway@e... Mon Aug 14 18:21:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8014 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 01:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO midas.onthe.net.au) (203.18.78.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:52 -0000 Received: from scorch ([203.22.196.193]) by midas.onthe.net.au (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e7F1LmN24269 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:21:49 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000815100542.007adb10@o...> X-Sender: paulway@o... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:05:42 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges In-Reply-To: <003201bfff38$873656c0$da832fc3@richardmayhew> References: <4.3.2.7.1.20000805233055.00ab59a0@p...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 01:46 AM 6/08/2000 +0200, you wrote: >I really cannot see how I could agree more. Only trouble is, what do >different maps show? Do all maps have zones? Do all maps have >Interchanges? Do all maps have Termini? All maps (of necessity) have Termini. Most maps I've seen either have interchanges explicitly or all stations where two lines join are shown like interchanges on the LU. Zones are the main problem - almost no maps show zones, and the ones that do are significantly less (usually) than the LU. About the only one that has a comparable zone system that I can think of is the Sydney map. What I wanted a while back, and Snow (I think) made a somewhat-working version of, is a program that can take a picture of a map, and then allow you to specify stations, connect those stations as lines, encompass stations in zones, and then store these values in a database. This would allow you to take any map (e.g. the horrible picture of the Paris Metro) and clean it up so it could be used as a map for MC. Ideally this would also do a few useful calculations for you - it could work out station charges (if we ever brought that system back into play); it could tell you how many stations were in a zone so you could get a good idea of proportions (aiming for a similar proportion of stations in a zone to the LU would be a Good Thing) and so forth. >And - if we make our own definitions of this and that - what do we >do, when our definition clashes with the one on the map? Or when the map is updated? I agree with David's point - we shouldn't make the ruleset so LU-centric that it's impractical to adapt it to another map. Paul (making a small comeback) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Did this message really come from me? Use PGP to find out! iQA/AwUBOZf8tstA22MsBS7iEQKqIACgvJ120UJn7Vej2nwotRi+C7MMXXAAoPuh E3/8vo/+8bS3/0NzNbPo1zpG =p7DK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From paulway@e... Mon Aug 14 18:21:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 579 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 01:21:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO midas.onthe.net.au) (203.18.78.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:54 -0000 Received: from scorch ([203.22.196.193]) by midas.onthe.net.au (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e7F1LoN24273 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:21:50 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000815101217.007ade00@o...> X-Sender: paulway@o... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:12:17 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 06:14 PM 6/08/2000 -0500, you wrote: >>ABCD... >> >>E) Use time as Turn length regulation, but dump game time. >> >>Could somebody tell me exactly what you want to do with game time >>and why you think it's worth the effort? Can someone remind me what Game Time was, if it was different to Turn Time? E, followed by D, for me in that case... Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Did this message really come from me? Use PGP to find out! iQA/AwUBOZf+QstA22MsBS7iEQJl1ACfaZOOv7gfcpyn/19pUAKiUM/tNboAoMxl Zs+PSWF1ZCt5d+mB4HNlzTfJ =1NDR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From paulway@e... Mon Aug 14 18:21:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8169 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 01:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO midas.onthe.net.au) (203.18.78.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 01:21:55 -0000 Received: from scorch ([203.22.196.193]) by midas.onthe.net.au (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e7F1LqN24277 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:21:52 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000815101655.007ad260@o...> X-Sender: paulway@o... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:16:55 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? In-Reply-To: References: <000401c00238$d88fc9e0$9e837ed4@snow> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 08:29 PM 9/08/2000 -0500, you wrote: >As I see it, there are a few different ways to run time. To borrow >the format used earlier: Here I'd _definitely_ vote for E. You're never going to be able to accurately account for any possible route, so why bother? For instance, in any system that is based on reality how do you take into account that at some times you can change trains in one minute and at other times you have to wait half an hour for the connecting train? But I still advocate a 'step' (if that's what we're calling them) to change lines at an interchange. If you're not using the interchange to change lines then it shouldn't count extra. I.e. the number of steps in your journey is the number of stations you passed through plus the number of line changes you made plus one (to arrive at your destination). Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Did this message really come from me? Use PGP to find out! iQA/AwUBOZf/WMtA22MsBS7iEQJ/FgCg+VQHeTxVXG6hPBBAoJIgB+z53wEAoMF/ dMzAy+npBxWAx/q1knzUK73x =twj9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From snowl@s... Tue Aug 15 14:15:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32170 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 21:15:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 21:15:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 21:15:19 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.4] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Oo3K-000JiB-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:15:18 +0100 Message-ID: <003501c006fd$82e03c40$04877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <000401c00238$d88fc9e0$9e837ed4@snow> <3.0.6.32.20000815101655.007ad260@o...> Subject: Re: MN: Time: How? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:55:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > But I still advocate a 'step' (if that's what we're calling them) to > change lines at an interchange. If you're not using the interchange > to change lines then it shouldn't count extra. I.e. the number of > steps in your journey is the number of stations you passed through > plus the number of line changes you made plus one (to arrive at your > destination). That's more or less what we have now, except we're using time rather than step-limits, and Z1 and 2 stations cost more. > Can someone remind me what Game Time was, if it was different to Turn > Time? Game Time is the 24hr clock which is used for peak/off-peak stuff. Turn time is 60mins in a Turn and the length of Actions/Moves. > E, followed by D, for me in that case... We have a sort of E/D mix at the moment. What are people's view on Game Time? The original vote was a little skewed, becasue the non-Game Time side's vote was fractured over Turn-time, but I think had a majority. As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong): Pro: David and Ole Anti: Snow, Riff, Kevan (and PaulWay?) -- Snow Is the answer: Anne Widdecombe and a chainsaw? From snowl@s... Tue Aug 15 14:15:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 781 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 21:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2000 21:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 21:15:44 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.4] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Oo3L-000JiB-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:15:19 +0100 Message-ID: <003601c006fd$83b2ce80$04877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <3.0.6.32.20000815095840.007ad820@o...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: RL interchanges Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:11:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > At 06:20 PM 5/08/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >>Great idea. We can make up the interchange rule via some sensible > >>consistant means and then edit the map to match. > >>Yes, there's no point complicating the matter with > >>under-construction lines that don't exist anymore. We should just > >>make a copy of the > >>current map from the LU website and put it on Xoom. > > > >Given the choice, I highly prefer finding a more modern map to use, > >rather than making artificial-seeming changes to the one we have > >now. > > Yes, and if we made a map in order to make the ruleset simple and > sensible, it wouldn't be MC, would it? :-) I'm not suggesting making a map or editing a map and then using it as the rules. I say produce the rules in a map-independant way. Then if people find it convienient edit a map so that interchanges are marked as such and non-interchanges are not. The current system (interchanges as defined on the map) is different for each version of the map. If we define an interchange in a way that doesn't rely on a particular version of the map (David's suggestion say) then you can use any map. However to make finding interchanges easy a map can edited so that the interchanges are marked correctly. -- Snow Is the answer: a 300bps modem and Quake Arena. From palnatoke@g... Tue Aug 22 13:23:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23850 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2000 20:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Aug 2000 20:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO thomson.uni2.net) (195.82.195.104) by mta3 with SMTP; 22 Aug 2000 20:23:47 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p448-114.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.130.242]) by thomson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e7MKNjP14721 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:23:45 +0200 Message-ID: <028d01c00c76$41baa880$f2822fc3@richardmayhew> To: "Mornington" Subject: Jigsaw Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:19:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" http://www.jigzone.com/cgi-local/choosepuzzle.pl?p=3Djz/p13/London_tube_map= .gif&z=3D240_piece_squares [UNWRAP if needed] It takes some time to load... Ole -- Ole Andersen Br=F8ndby=F8ster, Denmark palnatoke@g... The test of ahimsa is the absence of jealousy. The man whose heart never cherishes even the thought of injury to anyone, who rejoices at the prosperity of even his greatest enemy, that man is the bhakta, he is the yogi, he is the guru of all. -Swami Vivekananda (1863-1902) From paulway@e... Tue Aug 22 17:58:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13672 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2000 00:58:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Aug 2000 00:58:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.46) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Aug 2000 00:58:46 -0000 Received: from dns ([203.164.137.42]) by mail1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20000823005843.FTXM7743.mail1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au@dns> for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:58:43 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000823105844.007e7240@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:58:44 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Jigsaw In-Reply-To: <028d01c00c76$41baa880$f2822fc3@richardmayhew> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Paul Wayper -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 10:19 PM 22/08/2000 +0200, you wrote: >http://www.jigzone.com/cgi-local/choosepuzzle.pl?p=jz/p13/London_tube >_map.gif&z=240_piece_squares [UNWRAP if needed] 80 minutes - 75 to get most of it done and then I clicked "Solve" Ouch, what a timewaster! Cool idea, but I don't have that much time... Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Did this message really come from me? Use PGP to find out! iQA/AwUBOaKVJMtA22MsBS7iEQKW2ACfdAMrgmRSUMaoTgh/wEcnIjDMemoAn2ni 7g4hwxP6+o+GhpXQWhH4Dsin =Txfb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c) 1998-9 PJW From palnatoke@g... Sat Aug 26 02:53:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26381 invoked from network); 26 Aug 2000 09:53:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Aug 2000 09:53:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO davisson.uni2.net) (129.142.7.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Aug 2000 09:53:13 -0000 Received: from richardmayhew (p437-073.ppp.get2net.dk [195.47.146.201]) by davisson.uni2.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id e7Q9rCb22092 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:53:12 +0200 Message-ID: <017b01c00f43$209d9e80$e5862fc3@richardmayhew> To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000823105844.007e7240@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Jigsaw Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:49:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" I figured that this forum was the right place to mention the thing... where= else would people know the LU map by heart? I haven't experimented with changing the parameters in the URL. That could = make the puzzle a bit faster to solve - and perhaps the number of all-white= pieces could be reduced. Ole From snowl@s... Sun Sep 10 12:15:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24803 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2000 19:15:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Sep 2000 19:15:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Sep 2000 19:15:40 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.177] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13YCZm-000Lm4-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:15:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c01b5a$f4f6de80$b18d7ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <001101c005da$5be02700$c4877ed4@snow> Subject: Re: Actions Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:40:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I wrote: > The Turn and Gambits sections are still a little rough, but the whole > thing is approching usability. All we need now are a few Actions like > blocking, shunting and some gambits. Blocking (1Re, 20mins, post): A player may block an adjacent station. When a station is blocked no player may step to that station for 1 round. Shunting (1Re, 20mins, post): If a Player occupies the same station (and line?) as another player e may shunt that player 4 steps in the direction the shunting player is traveling. If a Termius or Blocked station would prevent the Shunt had it been a normal Move then the Shunt may not be carried out. [The following are ideas off the top of my head, please feel free to dis' them] Shockwave (2Bu, 40mins, post): If all interchanges on a line contain a Stack with a Re Token a player on that line may play the Shockwave action. The Shockwave action shunts all player on the line except for the actioning player 4 steps away from the actioning player. [Which way is "away" on the Circle and Northern Lines???] Teleport (2Bz, 30mins, post): If a player occupies a station with a Stack containing 3Gr e may play the Teleport Action and put eir piece on any station on the Board with a Stack containing 3Gr. Prison (2Bu, 2Bz, 30mins, post): If the circle line has 5 or more stations with Stacks containing a Bu Token then a Player occuping a station on the circle line may play the Prison Action to Block all Stations on the circle line for 1 round. [No one can move in or out of the circle line; players on the circle line (including the Actioning player) may move off the circle line provided they are on another line. If they are not on another line they are stuck there for one round.] Breed (0, 10mins, post): If a Terminus contains a Stack with 1 Plastic Tokens and a Metal Token a Player occuping that Station may play the Breed Action to gain 2 Plastic Tokens of the same colour as the one on the Stack. The Metal Token is not destoyed after this Gambit is played. [Issues: could not destroying the Metal cause abuse?] -- Snow TV programmers are pure evil; they are starting Angel before series 4 of Buffy TVS has finished _and_ putting it opposite the Robot Wars international final, __and__ it's not on the BBC ___and___ they've started beeping out South Park. Evil. From kevan@s... Thu Sep 14 02:33:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16571 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2000 09:33:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Sep 2000 09:33:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mr.egroups.com) (10.1.1.37) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 Sep 2000 09:33:41 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.119] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2000 09:33:41 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:33:36 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Actions Message-ID: <8pq61g+cvtc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000401c01b5a$f4f6de80$b18d7ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2147 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.42.164.32 From: "Kevan " > Blocking (1Re, 20mins, post): A player may block an adjacent station. > When a station is blocked no player may step to that station for 1 > round. Hm, would it not be nicer as "Blocking (1Re, 20mins, post): Chosen Station becomes Blocked for one round." with "Blocked" being defined elsewhere (since I imagine it'd be used in other contexts; Bulkheading, that rather nice "stacks become blocks" state, etc). > Shunting (1Re, 20mins, post): If a Player occupies the same station > (and line?) as another player e may shunt that player 4 steps in the > direction the shunting player is traveling. If a Termius or Blocked > station would prevent the Shunt had it been a normal Move then the > Shunt may not be carried out. Hm, I prefered the old version (or, at least, what I remember the old version as being, once tweaked for distance); "Shunting (1Re, 20mins, post): Chosen Player is moved four steps along any one Line, or less if they are stepped to a Terminus." Simplicity. And all that. > [The following are ideas off the top of my head, please feel free to > dis' them] Hmm. I'm really not sure about this keeping-track-of-Token-Stacks malarkey, you know. Although quite lovely when played on a real board, I think it's just going to hurt people's heads in email play. Knowing whether all the Interchanges on the Central Line have Token Stacks is quite fearsomely unintuitive and fiddly, if you've just got a list of various Stations on your monitor and a map pinned to your office wall. Unless, unless, someone sits and codes an MCiOS-style interface which generates a map GIF and keeps track of Tokens and things as the game progresses. Go to the site, play your move, have it send a nudging email to the next player. That might be quite nice. Hm. Having trodden into the realms of cgi scripting since I last thought about something like this, it doesn't seem quite as fearful and fanciful as it used to. Hmm... K. -- kevan@s... http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Her train of thought is underground, the map is yours, but God knows what you'll make of it." From kevan@s... Thu Sep 14 07:28:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19709 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2000 14:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Sep 2000 14:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 Sep 2000 14:28:18 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.110] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2000 14:28:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:28:05 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Mornington Dvorak Message-ID: <8pqn9l+ea8h@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 258 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.42.164.32 From: "Kevan " http://uncertain.org/~kevan/dvorak/ Hm, do any of you lot fancy having a stab at a Mornington Crescent version of this, sometime? Kevan -- kevan@s... http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Unanswered questions, questionable answers aren't enough." From riffraff@p... Sun Sep 24 18:37:34 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: riffraff@p... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_2); 25 Sep 2000 01:37:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 20396 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2000 01:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Sep 2000 01:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.34) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2000 01:37:33 -0000 Received: œby mail3.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14585; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:42:14 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:42:14 -0700 Message-Id: <200009250142.SAA14585@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [205.201.42.213] To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: MN: Bizarre From: "RiffRaff ." Anyone seen the August issue of "Bizarre"? There's an incredible article on the 'history' of MC. BTW, I'll stop being so quiet when we get internet in our new apartment. :) --Riff "The police said it was an accident. He came home late one night, and fell down an elevator shaft... onto some bullets." --The Bowler, "Mystery Men" ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.powerpuff.com - unofficial fan site-not affilliated w/Time Warner Inc http://hardcoreradiostore.com - your source for toon/anime music & video! From kevan@s... Tue Oct 03 03:51:00 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 3 Oct 2000 10:51:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 27961 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2000 10:51:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Oct 2000 10:51:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2000 10:51:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.119] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2000 10:51:00 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:50:50 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Subject: Re: Mornington Dvorak Message-ID: <8rcdma+79k2@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <8pqn9l+ea8h@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 375 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.42.164.32 From: "Kevan " > http://uncertain.org/~kevan/dvorak/ > > Hm, do any of you lot fancy having a stab at a Mornington Crescent > version of this, sometime? For what it's worth, it's now been done:- http://uncertain.org/~kevan/cgi-bin/cardlist.cgi?mornington -- kevan@s... http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Ladies and gentlemen, I've suffered for my music; now it's your turn." From richard_brockie@h... Wed Oct 04 00:30:08 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: richard_brockie@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 4 Oct 2000 07:30:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 3766 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 07:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Oct 2000 07:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.91) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 07:30:08 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 00:30:07 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [206.15.1.219] To: "MN: Discussions" Subject: Greeting all... Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 00:31:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2000 07:30:07.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBD70D70:01C02DD4] From: "Richard Brockie" I'm back in the land of those able to spend some time playing MN as I now have an internet connection at home. So, what is new? What have I missed? - miKi From snowl@s... Thu Oct 05 14:10:04 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 21:10:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 823 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 21:07:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 21:07:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 21:07:39 -0000 Received: from [195.8.90.160] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 13hIEo-0000f3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:07:34 +0100 Message-ID: <005501c02f0f$9b3f3680$a05a08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: Subject: Re: Greeting all... Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:42:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" miKi said: > I'm back in the land of those able to spend some time playing MN as I now > have an internet connection at home. So, what is new? What have I missed? > The current draft new ruleset is here: http://www.egroups.com/files/l-nomic-d/ We need to get the actions and gambits sorted out. There is also the issue of whether we want stacks, possessions or both. Let's see if we can get the wheels moving again. -- Snow Software Developer. From snowl@s... Thu Oct 05 14:14:23 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 21:14:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 6070 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 21:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 21:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 21:07:42 -0000 Received: from [195.8.90.160] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 13hIEm-0000f3-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:07:32 +0100 Message-ID: <005401c02f0f$99d71b00$a05a08c3@snow> To: "Mornomic" References: <8pq61g+cvtc@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Re: Actions Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:39:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > Hm, would it not be nicer as "Blocking (1Re, > 20mins, post): Chosen Station becomes Blocked for one round." with > "Blocked" being defined elsewhere (since I imagine it'd be used in > other contexts; Bulkheading, that rather nice "stacks become blocks" > state, etc). OK. > > Shunting (1Re, 20mins, post): If a Player occupies the same station > > (and line?) as another player e may shunt that player 4 steps in the > > direction the shunting player is traveling. If a Termius or Blocked > > station would prevent the Shunt had it been a normal Move then the > > Shunt may not be carried out. > > Hm, I prefered the old version (or, at least, what I remember the old > version as being, once tweaked for distance); "Shunting Player> (1Re, 20mins, post): Chosen Player is moved four steps along > any one Line, or less if they are stepped to a Terminus." Simplicity. > And all that. Does that mean you can shunt someone through a block? Or shunt someone in the direction from which the shunter came? I have no objection to having a shunt that will work in any direction the shunter wants, but I don't think shunting thorough blocks should be allowed. > > [The following are ideas off the top of my head, please feel free to > > dis' them] > > Hmm. I'm really not sure about this keeping-track-of-Token-Stacks > malarkey, you know. Although quite lovely when played on a real > board, I think it's just going to hurt people's heads in email play. > Knowing whether all the Interchanges on the Central Line have Token > Stacks is quite fearsomely unintuitive and fiddly, if you've just got > a list of various Stations on your monitor and a map pinned to your > office wall. Well I have an alternative, but I think a lot of people are keen on Stacks. > Unless, unless, someone sits and codes an MCiOS-style interface which > generates a map GIF and keeps track of Tokens and things as the game > progresses. Go to the site, play your move, have it send a nudging > email to the next player. That might be quite nice. Hm. Having > trodden into the realms of cgi scripting since I last thought about > something like this, it doesn't seem quite as fearful and fanciful as > it used to. MCMapper/JMC were going in that direction, but I've got a job now so I probably won't be spending too much time on them for a while. -- Snow Employed person. From david@d... Thu Oct 05 15:55:02 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: david@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 22:55:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 3129 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 22:55:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 22:55:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 22:55:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id RAA16663 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:54:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:54:13 -0500 (CDT) To: Mornomic Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <005401c02f0f$99d71b00$a05a08c3@snow> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Snow wrote: > > Unless, unless, someone sits and codes an MCiOS-style interface which > > generates a map GIF and keeps track of Tokens and things as the game > > progresses. Go to the site, play your move, have it send a nudging > > email to the next player. That might be quite nice. Hm. Having > trodden > into the realms of cgi scripting since I last thought about > something > like this, it doesn't seem quite as fearful and fanciful as > it used > to. > > MCMapper/JMC were going in that direction, but I've got a job now so I > probably won't be spending too much time on them for a while. A cold front, hurricane, and Christopher Columbus have united here to make a long, cold, rainy weekend, and I just happen to have a woefully underutilized web server here at school. I could see what I can whip up if nobody objects. - David Lynch - david@d... From snowl@s... Wed Feb 07 11:25:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 7 Feb 2001 19:25:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 11113 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2001 19:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Feb 2001 19:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 19:25:14 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.251] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14QaDI-0003F5-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:25:13 +0000 Message-ID: <00f901c0913b$ad674c60$fb837ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: Are we alive? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:23:21 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Hmmm. We almost had a working ruleset and then everything stopped. Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would like to join Mornington Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a Mornington Nomic to join. Those of you with long memories will remember that I introduced a Brown before (maybe the same one), but e never said anything... they do exist, I'm not making it up. -- Snow (Out of practise making up silly sigs) From dunx@d... Wed Feb 07 11:35:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 7 Feb 2001 19:35:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 41376 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2001 19:35:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2001 19:35:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO molly3.emumail.net) (207.155.121.166) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 20:36:05 -0000 Received: from molly3.emumail.net ([127.0.0.1]) by molly3.emumail.net ; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:34:59 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-Ip: 130.213.204.234 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: dunx@d... Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:34:59 BST X-Mailer: EMUmail 4.5 Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? X-Webmail-User: xdunx-dunx@d... Message-ID: <98157449901@m...> From: dunx@d... Well, I'm still interested and actually in a pretty good situation to go active again. OK, so I've started a new job in a new country but I've got a great deal more time and energy than I had last time I played any part in the game. So, bring it on (as they say in these parts, apparently). On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:23:21 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > Hmmm. We almost had a working ruleset and then everything stopped. > > Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would like to join Mornington > Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a Mornington Nomic to > join. > > Those of you with long memories will remember that I introduced a > Brown before (maybe the same one), but e never said anything... they > do exist, I'm not making it up. > > -- Snow > (Out of practise making up silly sigs) -- Dunx No .sig, because this isn't from a machine that has such things. This message powered by EMUMAIL. -- http://www.EMUMAIL.com From david@d... Wed Feb 07 16:33:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: david@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 00:33:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 16375 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 00:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 00:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 01:34:05 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id SAA23623 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:32:20 -0600 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:32:20 -0600 (CST) To: Mornomic Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? In-Reply-To: <00f901c0913b$ad674c60$fb837ed4@snow> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch I'm alive, at least for the moment. Ask me again after flying through both O'Hare and Heathrow twice each in the next four days. - David James Lynch - david@d... [Shunts himself to Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3] On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Snow wrote: > Hmmm. We almost had a working ruleset and then everything stopped. > > Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would like to join Mornington > Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a Mornington Nomic to > join. > > Those of you with long memories will remember that I introduced a > Brown before (maybe the same one), but e never said anything... they > do exist, I'm not making it up. > > -- Snow > (Out of practise making up silly sigs) > From mn_miKi@h... Wed Feb 07 22:53:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 06:53:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 12577 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 06:53:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 06:53:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.121) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 06:53:52 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:53:51 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [63.93.100.161] To: References: <98157449901@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:53:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C09158.DAC70700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2001 06:53:51.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[E539E930:01C0919B] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C09158.DAC70700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm alive too! Hey Dunx, does this mean that you too have sold out and move= d to pastures 'Merkin? Where are you - I am in Silicon Valley these days. - miKi ----- Original Message -----=20 From: dunx@d...=20 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? Well, I'm still interested and actually in a pretty good situation to go active again. OK, so I've started a new job in a new country but I've got= =20 a great deal more time and energy than I had last time I played any part in the game. So, bring it on (as they say in these parts, apparently). On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:23:21 -0000 "Snow" wrote: > Hmmm. We almost had a working ruleset and then everything stopped. >=20 > Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would like to join Mornington > Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a Mornington Nomic to > join. >=20 > Those of you with long memories will remember that I introduced a > Brown before (maybe the same one), but e never said anything... they > do exist, I'm not making it up. >=20 > -- Snow > (Out of practise making up silly sigs) -- Dunx No .sig, because this isn't from a machine that has such things. This message powered by EMUMAIL. -- http://www.EMUMAIL.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C09158.DAC70700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm alive too! Hey Dunx, does this mean th= at you=20 too have sold out and moved to pastures 'Merkin? Where are you - I am in Si= licon=20 Valley these days.
 
 - miKi
 
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 dunx@d... =
To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001= 12:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive?

Well, I'm still interested and actually in a pretty go= od=20 situation to go
active again. OK, so I've started a new job in a new=20 country but I've got
a great deal more time and energy than I had las= t=20 time I played any part
in the game.

So, bring it on (as they sa= y in=20 these parts, apparently).

On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:23:21 -0000 "Snow"= =20 wrote:

> Hmmm. We almost had a working ruleset and then everyth= ing=20 stopped.
>
> Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would lik= e to=20 join Mornington
> Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a= =20 Mornington Nomic to
> join.
>
> Those of you with long= =20 memories will remember that I introduced a
> Brown before (maybe th= e=20 same one), but e never said anything... they
> do exist, I'm not ma= king=20 it up.
>
> -- Snow
> (Out of practise making up silly= =20 sigs)

--
Dunx
No .sig, because this isn't from a machine tha= t has=20 such things.

This message powered by EMUMAIL. -- http://www.EMUMAIL.com

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C09158.DAC70700-- From dunx@d... Wed Feb 07 23:23:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 07:23:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 26510 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 07:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 07:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 07:23:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 4741 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 07:23:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (216.161.82.126) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 07:23:31 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:20:51 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <98157449901@m...> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01020723232500.06367@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Thu, 08 Feb 2001, you wrote: > > I'm alive too! Hey Dunx, does this mean that you too have sold out and moved to pastures 'Merkin? Where are you - I am in Silicon Valley these days. Absolutely. I'm in Portland, OR, MC capital of America. After all, it has an underground station. And three (yes, three!) MC players. I've been here a week and a half. It seems OK so far. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto a hamburger." - Ted Nelson From paulway@e... Thu Feb 08 11:00:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 19:00:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 99466 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 19:00:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 19:00:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 19:00:27 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010208190025.NFXW26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:00:25 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010209055845.02528eb0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 06:00:24 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? In-Reply-To: References: <00f901c0913b$ad674c60$fb837ed4@snow> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 11:32 AM 8/02/2001, you wrote: >I'm alive, at least for the moment. Ask me again after flying through >both O'Hare and Heathrow twice each in the next four days. I'm still here. I'm still waiting for something to happen... I might be able to contribute, but I have a minor philosophical problem with the way the ruleset has gone. > - David James Lynch - >david@d... >[Shunts himself to Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3] PaulWay: Puts himself in Hewligan's Dilemma at Brixton. From kevan@s... Fri Feb 09 04:49:01 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 9 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 88299 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c3.egroups.com) (10.1.10.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.126] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:49:00 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Are we alive? Message-ID: <960ovs+a7da@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00f901c0913b$ad674c60$fb837ed4@snow> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 439 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.42.164.32 From: "Kevan Davis" > Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would like to join Mornington > Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a Mornington Nomic to > join. Mm, I'm still here as well. And sat gazing at maps on a District Line car the other weekend, I was reminded just how much I missed using the dear old Tube map as a strategic battleground. Now, where were we? Kevan -- http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Her train of thought is underground." From a_r_brown_esq@y... Sat Feb 10 05:32:54 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: a_r_brown_esq@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 10 Feb 2001 13:32:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 1759 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 13:32:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2001 13:32:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web10206.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.130.70) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 13:32:53 -0000 Message-ID: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> Received: from [213.38.75.10] by web10206.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:32:53 PST Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:32:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: making nomic easier To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Brown?= An easier rulset would make things simpler. There is currently far too much to remember and there are things which are hardly ever used. I myself have an idea which would get rid of i)Charges and Currents ii)All possesions apart from stubs iii)The token system iv)High and Hill stations reducing LV v)The sanctuary rule vi)A vast amount of actions vii)Time The reasoning for this is that i) takes an age to calculate. In the case of ii) just think - what use are spectacles? They can be bought but seem to affect nothing. iii)How many times have you been annoyed that you don't have a specific token. Also only 2 stations (3 under finsbury) can get you a silver token. This can be crippling as you know. iv) I always forget this rule until the last minute. v)See iv). And finally vi)and vii)Some actions are very under used; whilst calculating the time of day and week is a large pain in the behind. On the other hands the traditional features such as Knip, Spoon, Shunting, Dollis Hill loop and the strile I would keep. You will notice I have not told you how I would do this, or what actions remain, or how my modifications would affect other variants. I will tell you in glorious detail if e-mail me. You may not be intrested; or my ideas might proove impractable. Fair enough. Hoping this finds you as it leaves me, Andrew Brown a_r_brown_esq@y... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mn_miKi@h... Sat Feb 10 11:33:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 10 Feb 2001 19:33:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 90764 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 19:33:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2001 19:33:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.88) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 20:34:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:33:43 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.18] To: References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> Subject: Re: making nomic easier Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:33:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01C09355.56C92560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2001 19:33:43.0870 (UTC) FILETIME=[610985E0:01C09398] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C09355.56C92560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome to Mornomic Brown, but don't think that you can get away with sugge= sting something so radical and not expanding on it... Anyway, by and large,= I agree with you - there is a lot of superfluous overhead in the rules whi= ch does make jumping into a game rather daunting. I had a hand in getting t= he rules into something workable, but then was out of touch for about 8 mon= ths starting around the time charge was introduced, and to be perfectly hon= est, couldn't really get back into it when I got reliable internet access a= gain. So, I am largely in favour of the proposal briefly outlined by Brown, maybe= with the exception of the token system. We do need to have some sort of cu= rrency, and though the large number of token colours is probably excessive,= I think that we require that Actions have some cost to the perpetrator. So my thoughts are along the lines of: 1. Pare the ruleset down to an agreed bare minimum required to have a f= unctioning game. 2. Let Nomic work its magic on the rules. 3. Have more emphasis on creating Special Rulesets which is more in cha= racter with Traditional MC, so the basic game remains reasonably simple and= hence straightforward for newcomers and old timers like myself who have lo= st the plot. 4. Have a normal rules game running constantly in the Lyttleton lounge,= leaving the others for Special Games as required. Do we have a(n active) Speaker? Mind the gap, - miKi PS. Excuse the poor wordwrap - I currently have to use Outlook Un-express f= or email. I never thought that I would pine for pine! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andrew Brown=20 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 5:32 AM Subject: MN: making nomic easier An easier rulset would make things simpler. There is currently far too much to remember and there are things which are hardly ever used. I myself have an idea which would get rid of i)Charges and Currents ii)All possesions apart from stubs iii)The token system iv)High and Hill stations reducing LV v)The sanctuary rule vi)A vast amount of actions vii)Time The reasoning for this is that i) takes an age to calculate. In the case of ii) just think - what use are spectacles? They can be bought but seem to affect nothing. iii)How many times have you been annoyed that you don't have a specific token. Also only 2 stations (3 under finsbury) can get you a silver token. This can be crippling as you know. iv) I always forget this rule until the last minute. v)See iv). And finally vi)and vii)Some actions are very under used; whilst calculating the time of day and week is a large pain in the behind. On the other hands the traditional features such as Knip, Spoon, Shunting, Dollis Hill loop and the strile I would keep.=20 You will notice I have not told you how I would do this, or what actions remain, or how my modifications would affect other variants. I will tell you in glorious detail if e-mail me. You may not be intrested; or my ideas might proove impractable. Fair enough. Hoping this finds you as it leaves me, Andrew Brown a_r_brown_esq@y... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35=20 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C09355.56C92560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome to Mornomic Brown, but don't think= that you=20 can get away with suggesting something so radical and not expanding on it..= .=20 Anyway, by and large, I agree with you - there is a lot of superfluous over= head=20 in the rules which does make jumping into a game rather daunting. I had a h= and=20 in getting the rules into something workable, but then was out of touch for= =20 about 8 months starting around the time charge was introduced, and to be=20 perfectly honest, couldn't really get back into it when I got reliable inte= rnet=20 access again.
 
So, I am largely in favour of th= e=20 proposal briefly outlined by Brown, maybe with the exception of the token=20 system. We do need to have some sort of currency, and though the large numb= er of=20 token colours is probably excessive, I think that we require that= =20 Actions have some cost to the perpetrator.
 
So my thoughts are along the lines of:
    1. Pare the ruleset dow= n=20 to an agreed bare minimum required to have a functioning=20 game.
    2. Let Nomic work its m= agic on=20 the rules.
    3. Have more emphasis o= n=20 creating Special Rulesets which is more in character with Traditional = MC,=20 so the basic game remains reasonably simple and hence straightforward for=20 newcomers and old timers like myself who have lost the plot.
    4. Have a normal rules = game=20 running constantly in the Lyttleton lounge, leaving the others for Special = Games=20 as required.
 
Do we have a(n active) Speaker?

Mind the gap,
 - miKi
 
PS. Excuse the poor wordwrap - I currently= have to=20 use Outlook Un-express for email. I never thought that I would pine for=20 pine!
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Andrew=20 Brown
To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 = 5:32=20 AM
Subject: MN: making nomic easier

An easier rulset would make things simpler. There=20 is
currently far too much to remember and there are
things which ar= e=20 hardly ever used.

I myself have an idea which would get rid=20 of
i)Charges and Currents
ii)All possesions apart from stubs
iii= )The=20 token system
iv)High and Hill stations reducing LV
v)The sanctuary= =20 rule
vi)A vast amount of actions
vii)Time

The reasoning for = this=20 is that i) takes an age to
calculate. In the case of ii) just think - = what=20 use
are spectacles? They can be bought but seem to affect
nothing.= =20 iii)How many times have you been annoyed that
you don't have a specifi= c=20 token. Also only 2 stations
(3 under finsbury) can get you a silver to= ken.=20 This
can be crippling as you know. iv) I always forget this
rule un= til=20 the last minute. v)See iv). And finally
vi)and vii)Some actions are ve= ry=20 under used; whilst
calculating the time of day and week is a large=20 pain
in the behind.

On the other hands the traditional features= such=20 as
Knip, Spoon, Shunting, Dollis Hill loop and the strile
I would k= eep.=20

You will notice I have not told you how I would do
this, or wh= at=20 actions remain, or how my modifications
would affect other=20 variants.

I will tell you in glorious detail if e-mail me. You
= may=20 not be intrested; or my ideas might proove
impractable. Fair=20 enough.

Hoping this finds you as it leaves me,
Andrew=20 Brown

a_r_brown_esq@y...


_________________________= _________________________
Do=20 You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $= 35=20
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<= /A>

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C09355.56C92560-- From snowl@s... Sat Feb 10 15:20:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 10 Feb 2001 23:20:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 61638 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 23:20:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2001 23:20:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Feb 2001 00:21:41 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.240] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14RjJi-000D9S-00 for l-nomic-d@egroups.com; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:35 +0000 Message-ID: <011801c093b8$0c684740$f0877ed4@snow> To: "Mornomic" Subject: Everyone remain calm Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:46:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I was just trying to learn what the new eGroups/Yahoo address from Mornomic is when I came accross: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MorningtonCrescentCa What do we do? Should we embrace them as fellow travellers on the way to enlightenment, or sue them for copyright theft? -- Snow (trying not to panic) From snowl@s... Sat Feb 10 15:20:39 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 10 Feb 2001 23:20:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 41914 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 23:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2001 23:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 23:20:38 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.240] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14RjJk-000D9S-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:36 +0000 Message-ID: <011901c093b8$0d427aa0$f0877ed4@snow> To: References: <960ovs+a7da@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Re: Are we alive? Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:08:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevan Davis To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: MN: Re: Are we alive? > > Anyway Brown has emailed me to say he would like to join Mornington > > Nomic, so I thought I'd see if there was still a Mornington Nomic to > > join. > > Mm, I'm still here as well. And sat gazing at maps on a District Line > car the other weekend, I was reminded just how much I missed using > the dear old Tube map as a strategic battleground. > > Now, where were we? The situation at the moment is that we have the 'old' ruleset and the 'new' ruleset (aka MN2 or RealMC). The new ruleset is approaching playability, and the old ruleset is still (just)playable. I think we need to take a look at where we are with the new ruleset, how players feel about it and its current direction. In particular comments from PaulWay would be helpful. For the record the old ruleset is at: http://members.nbci.com/mornomic/ruleset.html And the new ruleset is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/l-nomic-d/files/ruleset_2000_8_5.html For completeness I have put a copy of this up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/l-nomic-d/files/mcarena.html It's a ruleset I made a while ago. It's really designed for computers to play rather than humans, but I never got round to writing the program that uses it. -- Snow (hoping we can all agree this time). From mn_miKi@h... Sat Feb 10 17:30:08 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 11 Feb 2001 01:30:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 98976 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2001 01:30:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2001 01:30:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.46) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Feb 2001 01:30:07 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:56:34 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [66.42.1.115] To: References: <98157449901@m...> <01020723232500.06367@dagon> Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:56:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C092E3.321F08A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2001 05:56:34.0883 (UTC) FILETIME=[397BD130:01C09326] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C092E3.321F08A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dunx, How splendid - who are you working for? - miKi (parsing at Tooting Bec) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dunx=20 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:20 PM Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? On Thu, 08 Feb 2001, you wrote: >=20 > I'm alive too! Hey Dunx, does this mean that you too have sold out and = moved to pastures 'Merkin? Where are you - I am in Silicon Valley these day= s. Absolutely. I'm in Portland, OR, MC capital of America. After all, it has an underground station. And three (yes, three!) MC players. I've been here a week and a half. It seems OK so far. --=20 Dunx "Fixing HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto a hamburger." - Ted Nelson Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 Click here for Classmates.com=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C092E3.321F08A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dunx,
 
How splendid - who are you working=20 for?
 
- miKi (parsing at Tooting Bec)
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Dunx
To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001= 3:20=20 PM
Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive?

On Thu, 08 Feb 2001, you wrote:
>
> I'm a= live=20 too! Hey Dunx, does this mean that you too have sold out and moved to pas= tures=20 'Merkin? Where are you - I am in Silicon Valley these days.

Absolu= tely.=20 I'm in Portland, OR, MC capital of America. After all, it has
an=20 underground station. And three (yes, three!) MC players.

I've been= here=20 a week and a half. It seems OK so far.

--
Dunx
"Fixing HTML= is=20 like grafting arms and legs onto a=20 hamburger."
        - Ted=20 Nelson

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C092E3.321F08A0-- From dunx@d... Sat Feb 10 22:22:39 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 11 Feb 2001 06:22:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 7408 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2001 06:22:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2001 06:22:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Feb 2001 06:22:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 417 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2001 06:22:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (216.161.84.226) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2001 06:22:31 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:17:20 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <98157449901@m...> <01020723232500.06367@dagon> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0102102222410E.11015@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, you wrote: > > Dunx, > > How splendid - who are you working for? Rational Software, makers of Rose, ClearCase, and other fine software engineering tools. Since this work is in direct competition with what I was doing at Oracle, I was asked to serve out my notice period at home. Which was nice. Things progress well at the moment, with my having just moved into a house and obtained (finally!) a mobile phone. And I have a kettle, which makes the brewing of tea possible. I can see a West Coast Pilgrimage of some sort may be in order! -- Dunx A man who is tired of London has seen sense at last. (apart, of course, from its excellent underground railway services which are beyond compare, particularly when betting is involved) From kevan@s... Sun Feb 11 07:51:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 11 Feb 2001 15:51:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 35211 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2001 15:51:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2001 15:51:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.135) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Feb 2001 15:51:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.106] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2001 15:51:13 -0000 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:51:11 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: making nomic easier Message-ID: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1475 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.64.171.120 From: "Kevan Davis" > So my thoughts are along the lines of: > 1. Pare the ruleset down to an agreed bare minimum required to have a functioning game. Agreed. I think we're more or less there already, really - my only doubts about ruleset_2000_8_5.html are that the Black-Token LV replacement seems just as complex as LV itself (but with far more unpredictability), and - possibly - that Token Stacks are more trouble than they're worth. > 2. Let Nomic work its magic on the rules. Mm, maybe. I'm not sure if Proposal-and-Voting is an overly bureaucratical path to tread - as has been said before on the subject, we'd have a more robust basic ruleset if any points of contention were argued through to a unanimous agreement, if individual issues were addressed en masse, rather than by whoever happened to notice them. > 3. Have more emphasis on creating Special Rulesets which is more in character with Traditional MC, so the basic game remains reasonably simple and hence straightforward for newcomers and old timers like myself who have lost the plot. This seems a good way to go. A sturdy, static basic ruleset, but which can be used to play dynamic Nomic games (or to replay previous Special Rulesets, of course). > 4. Have a normal rules game running constantly in the Lyttleton lounge, leaving the others for Special Games as required. Indeed. Kevan -- http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Later on the Northern Line, she'll freak about the lack of sky." From paulway@e... Tue Feb 13 14:50:47 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 13 Feb 2001 22:50:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 82689 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2001 22:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2001 22:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Feb 2001 22:50:45 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010213225044.UGOY26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:50:44 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:50:36 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier In-Reply-To: References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 06:33 AM 11/02/2001, you wrote: >So my thoughts are along the lines of: > 1. Pare the ruleset down to an agreed bare minimum required to have a > functioning game. > 2. Let Nomic work its magic on the rules. I'm absolutely 100% for this idea. I'm very strongly against any one person deciding what we have in our ruleset - I can agree with some of Brown's proposals but scrapping the token system is like saying that in the interests of simplicity only vanilla icecream will be sold. The previous games have proved that tokens are almost vital as a way of keeping track of who can do what. I think the best course of action is to start with the Volume 0 Ruleset (which defines how to play the Nomic side of the game) available on the Xoom MorNomic site without Rule 0.4.3 (which allows the speaker to move references to token movements in a proposal into the table in Rule 1.4.1). This ruleset had spent nine weeks without a revision, and I consider it to be stable and a good foundation for play. >From there, I think each of us should nominate to be 'in charge' of one section of play mechanics. For instance, I'd like to nominate myself to be in charge of tokens. This means that it's my job initially to set up (in a set of proposals) the framework for token keeping, token transactions and so forth. People should be encouraged, but not forced, to borrow sensibly from the Volume 1 rules. Anyone is free to propose anything they like, whether inside their 'charge' or not, but the caretaker of that section is the one who should be predominately with that section. I.e. I might propose something on game timing, but if the game timing caretaker says "I have a better idea" or "I've been thinking on that for a while and we need to do X to make the game more complete" then I'd acquiesce quite happily. The game sections I see are: * Actions: how players do things in the game. * Definitions: ensuring standard usage and standard terminology. * Game timing: the timing of moves and actions and so forth. * Legality: buzzing, taking back invalid or illegal moves. * Movement: moving around the map (via lines or not). * Special Rulesets: keeping everything separate, and keeping everything together. * States: spoon, knip, bridges, toffing, narging - all that stuff. * Tokens: their acquisition, usage, transferral and movement on the board. * Winning: how to win; keeping various methods at roughly equal 'cost'. > 3. Have more emphasis on creating Special Rulesets which is more in > character with Traditional MC, so the basic game remains reasonably > simple and hence straightforward for newcomers and old timers like myself > who have lost the plot. I think this is a very good point; it could be argued that a lot of the complexity was in stuff like clothing and charges that could, indeed should, have been placed in a separate variant ruleset and used when applicable. I also tend to be a Traditionalist, in that I like Mornington Nomic to reflect the way Mornington Crescent is played on ISIHAC and at such sites as Madeira, Outer Space, and Orange (not to forget Mono list). This means I'm not 100% happy with things like newspapers and busking not because they didn't work but because they're not a part of my life playing MC on the internet. Perhaps we need to be more careful of what things we introduce into the standard game and put novelties and special effects into variant rulesets (of which, by convention, there are a myriad). This is not to say that I want to keep such things as shunting or spoon in separate rulesets - I want the IMCS Standard to be still playable, as it were. The border is blurred and vague; each of us must make up their own mind as to when they cross it. > 4. Have a normal rules game running constantly in the Lyttleton > lounge, leaving the others for Special Games as required. Yes! >Do we have a(n active) Speaker? I'd volunteer Dunx, since he did an excellent job, but if necessary I'll do the job. Some weeks I have time free, some weeks I don't. Have fun, Paul From paulway@e... Tue Feb 13 14:56:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 13 Feb 2001 22:56:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 78247 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2001 22:56:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2001 22:56:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Feb 2001 22:56:18 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010213225615.UIED26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:56:15 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010214095532.009e40c0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:56:08 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Everyone remain calm In-Reply-To: <011801c093b8$0c684740$f0877ed4@snow> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 09:46 AM 11/02/2001, you wrote: >I was just trying to learn what the new eGroups/Yahoo address from >Mornomic is when I came accross: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MorningtonCrescentCa > >What do we do? Should we embrace them as fellow travellers on the way >to enlightenment, or sue them for copyright theft? I think we should send a delegation to greet them and see what they're up to. PaulWay (volunteering) From palnatoke@g... Tue Feb 13 21:03:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 05:03:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 59111 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 05:03:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 05:03:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cicero0.cybercity.dk) (212.242.40.52) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 05:03:25 -0000 Received: from usr04.cybercity.dk (usr04.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.36]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD8E102957 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:03:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from richardmayhew (port10.ds1-boet.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.142.75]) by usr04.cybercity.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA41781 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:03:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from palnatoke@g...) Message-ID: <006901c09643$64281ea0$0200000a@richardmayhew> To: References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:02:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Paul wrote: ... : I think this is a very good point; it could be argued that a lot of the=20 : complexity was in stuff like clothing and charges that could, indeed=20 : should, have been placed in a separate variant ruleset and used when=20 : applicable.=20 "Mornington RPG" ...=20 : Perhaps we need to be more careful of what things we introduce into the=20 : standard game and put novelties and special effects into variant rulesets= =20 : (of which, by convention, there are a myriad). This is not to say that I= =20 : want to keep such things as shunting or spoon in separate rulesets - I wa= nt=20 : the IMCS Standard to be still playable, as it were. The border is blurre= d=20 : and vague; each of us must make up their own mind as to when they cross i= t. What if (after an initial period of confusion, angst and all that) the Stan= dard Ruleset could only be amended by moving rules from the non-Standard ru= lesets? Ole From dunx@d... Tue Feb 13 23:05:38 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 07:05:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 34310 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 07:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 07:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 07:05:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 30547 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 07:05:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (216.161.82.108) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 07:05:53 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Rulesets Aplenty Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:14:42 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021323050304.01611@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx To the Clan McNomic: As a returning Player, I've spent some time this evening reading the various rulesets which are extant, and although I haven't come to any definite conclusions (particularly about the most recent iteration of the New Ruleset) I would make the following observations: 1. the original ruleset is perhaps a touch too complicated - that's an obvious statement, but one I've never really cleaved to before having not participated for a long time. My own take on this complexity is that it has two aspects: a) difficulty - some of mechanics are over complicated for little gain. As the inventor of Charge I would certainly accept responsibility for some of this unnecessary difficulty, but there's actually a lot less really difficult stuff in the Game than first appears and most of what there is adds to the Game. b) volume - there are a huge number of Rules, Possessions, Hats, Station and Line States, Clamps, Disruptions, and so on. There is just too much for anyone to remember, and frankly a lot of it isn't terribly interesting. Indeed, a lot of Actions, Clamps and States are just minor variations on each other introduced more out of whimsy than anything else. Of these two, I would have said that (b) was the larger problem simply because it gets in the way of actually playing the game. I would also add that a lot of these game elements don't really interact in interesting ways - Kevan has said in the past that one of his goals with the game was to have game mechanics which interact with each other in interesting ways. (Incidentally, my remarks at the end of (b) are not meant as an attack on whimsy per se, merely on gratuitous whimsy obstructing the playability of the game) I would loudly echo approval for the idea of hiving a lot of this stuff (both the complicated and the voluminous) off into Special Rulesets. Ole's suggestion of freezing the standard rules to untried additions is also sound to my eyes. As for the content of the Special Rulesets - I wonder if we have scope for building what would amount to discrete Ruleset components which could be plugged together to make more complex Rules. I'm thinking particularly that the Game Time and Charge/Current Rules could be happily componentised in this manner (sorry, dreadful terminology - blame the business I'm in). It might be interesting to categorise any Special Rulesets we come up with by complexity, size, whimsicality, and so on. 2. I'm not really in a position to cavil over the replacement ruleset which was worked on over the Summer last year since I could have joined in but didn't, but I'm not sure I like it much. I need to read it again, but it seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I do like the statement at the top about this game really having rules, though. 3. the MCArena ruleset is interesting. 4. mechanism - I agree that there are problems with the administrative burden of a Nomic (I find Kudos particularly onerous, as evidenced by my various attempts to get rid of it) but its structure and the fact that it places an end point on discussions is very useful. The core point about MN when considering it as a Nomic is that the Nomic part is not a competitive element of the game - it happens to be a useful format for discussing and arriving at workable rules. That structure is valuable, and I think is probably worth maintaining in some form. Finally, on the subject of Speaking: Snow is still the incumbent as far as I am aware and was doing a good job the last time I was paying attention. If he no longer wants the job then I'm happy to re-don the Speaking trousers, but for myself I think I might be happier with a rotating Speakership. Cheers. -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto a hamburger." - Ted Nelson From snowl@s... Wed Feb 14 15:16:15 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 39593 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:14 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14TB9h-0001Y5-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:16:13 +0000 Message-ID: <00a501c096dc$0bb114e0$52837ed4@snow> To: References: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:40:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Kevan said: > > So my thoughts are along the lines of: > > 1. Pare the ruleset down to an agreed bare minimum required to > have a functioning game. > > Agreed. I think we're more or less there already, really - my only > doubts about ruleset_2000_8_5.html are that the Black-Token LV > replacement seems just as complex as LV itself (but with far more > unpredictability), and - possibly - that Token Stacks are more > trouble than they're worth. Though I prefer the Black-Token LV system, I lost the 'consensus' and a time based system was established. I started to convert the ruleset, but never got round to putting it up. It is up now. Token stacks were a half-decided system that is really just a place holder. It can be replaced or enhanced as the group decides (if indeed we continue with the new ruleset). > > 2. Let Nomic work its magic on the rules. > > Mm, maybe. I'm not sure if Proposal-and-Voting is an overly > bureaucratical path to tread - as has been said before on the > subject, we'd have a more robust basic ruleset if any points of > contention were argued through to a unanimous agreement, if > individual issues were addressed en masse, rather than by whoever > happened to notice them. I want a democratic system, but nothing so clunky as what we have now. It should be able to cope with discussions that last weeks (or months), but not turn minor problems into bureacratic nightmares. I think the speaker should start a thread to be discussed. Everyone debates it as close to unianimity as possible then someone makes a formal proposal (direct to the list), and everyone votes a +1 or -1 (direct to the list), after a certain amount of time (say 4 working days) the votes are summed and a positive number passes (or a higher threshold could be set). The speaker is only responsible for deciding the thread. Everything else can be done directly by the players (including updating the ruleset if we use eGroups file space). > > 3. Have more emphasis on creating Special Rulesets which is > more in character with Traditional MC, so the basic game remains > reasonably simple and hence straightforward for newcomers and old > timers like myself who have lost the plot. > > This seems a good way to go. A sturdy, static basic ruleset, but > which can be used to play dynamic Nomic games (or to replay previous > Special Rulesets, of course). This sounds exactly right provided the nomic games only affect the Special Rulesets, not the 'static' basic ruleset. -- Snow (playing with my new optical mouse) From snowl@s... Wed Feb 14 15:16:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 12837 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:16 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14TB9i-0001Y5-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:16:14 +0000 Message-ID: <00a601c096dc$0c9c1120$52837ed4@snow> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010214095532.009e40c0@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Everyone remain calm Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:50:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > At 09:46 AM 11/02/2001, you wrote: > >I was just trying to learn what the new eGroups/Yahoo address from > >Mornomic is when I came accross: > > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MorningtonCrescentCa > > > >What do we do? Should we embrace them as fellow travellers on the way > >to enlightenment, or sue them for copyright theft? > > I think we should send a delegation to greet them and see what they're up to. Good idea, sign me up. > PaulWay (volunteering) Snow -- Snow (rabbit hole causes temporal worm distress) From snowl@s... Wed Feb 14 15:16:18 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 85494 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 00:17:22 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14TB9j-0001Y5-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:16:16 +0000 Message-ID: <00a701c096dc$0d43e9e0$52837ed4@snow> To: References: <01021323050304.01611@dagon> Subject: Re: Rulesets Aplenty Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:02:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx said: > 1. the original ruleset is perhaps a touch too complicated > ... > but there's actually a lot > less really difficult stuff in the Game than first appears and most > of what there is adds to the Game. I think the first part of this sentence is the key point to the whole discussion, it isn't difficult it's just complicated. The second part I not sure about, I think most of the ruleset subtracts from the game. > I would loudly echo approval for the idea of hiving a lot of this stuff > (both the complicated and the voluminous) off into Special Rulesets. Agreed. > Ole's suggestion of freezing the standard rules to untried additions is > also sound to my eyes. The more static the better in my eyes. > 2. I'm not really in a position to cavil over the replacement ruleset which > was worked on over the Summer last year since I could have joined in > but didn't, but I'm not sure I like it much. I need to read it again, > but it seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. It's not finished yet! _I_ don't think it's going in the wrong direction, but that is one of the things we are discussing. > I do like the statement at the top about this game really having rules, > though. I was a member of this list for weeks, before I decided it was 'for real'. -- Snow (this sig has been left intentionally blank) From snowl@s... Wed Feb 14 15:16:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 5321 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 23:16:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 23:16:19 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14TB9l-0001Y5-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:16:17 +0000 Message-ID: <00a801c096dc$0e0d5460$52837ed4@snow> To: References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:10:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > From there, I think each of us should nominate to be 'in charge' of one > section of play mechanics. I don't like this at all. We'll just end up with people trying to implement moving with actions, becuase they're in charge of actions and the person in charge of moves is not being co-operative. Everyone should have equal say on all subjects. Furthermore where possible everyone should be encoaraged to have a say on all subjects, the more people put their input in the more likely we are to get the best solution. > The game sections I see are: > > * Actions: how players do things in the game. > * Definitions: ensuring standard usage and standard terminology. > * Game timing: the timing of moves and actions and so forth. > * Legality: buzzing, taking back invalid or illegal moves. > * Movement: moving around the map (via lines or not). > * Special Rulesets: keeping everything separate, and keeping everything > together. > * States: spoon, knip, bridges, toffing, narging - all that stuff. > * Tokens: their acquisition, usage, transferral and movement on the board. > * Winning: how to win; keeping various methods at roughly equal 'cost'. Looks right. > > 4. Have a normal rules game running constantly in the Lyttleton > > lounge, leaving the others for Special Games as required. > > Yes! Yes. > >Do we have a(n active) Speaker? > > I'd volunteer Dunx, since he did an excellent job, but if necessary I'll do > the job. Some weeks I have time free, some weeks I don't. Officially I'm still Speaker, but I'd like to get rid of the role so I can stop being diplomatic. Since Dunx is willing I'll second the nomination. -- Snow (this sig has been left intentionally blank) From snowl@s... Wed Feb 14 15:21:18 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 14 Feb 2001 23:21:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 51403 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 23:21:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2001 23:21:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 00:22:22 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.82] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14TBEZ-0001cn-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:21:16 +0000 Message-ID: <00b801c096dc$c00ca6c0$52837ed4@snow> To: References: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> <00a501c096dc$0bb114e0$52837ed4@snow> Subject: Re: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:20:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I Said: > Kevan said: > > > So my thoughts are along the lines of: > > > 1. Pare the ruleset down to an agreed bare minimum required to > > have a functioning game. > > > > Agreed. I think we're more or less there already, really - my only > > doubts about ruleset_2000_8_5.html are that the Black-Token LV > > replacement seems just as complex as LV itself (but with far more > > unpredictability), and - possibly - that Token Stacks are more > > trouble than they're worth. > > Though I prefer the Black-Token LV system, I lost the 'consensus' and > a time based system was established. I started to convert the ruleset, > but never got round to putting it up. It is up now. I'm talking nonsense, it's already up I just linked to the wrong version. The right version is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/l-nomic-d/files/ruleset_2000_8_14.html -- Snow (Mind like sieve invades sieve like mind) From mn_miKi@h... Wed Feb 14 16:13:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 15 Feb 2001 00:13:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 58016 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 00:13:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Feb 2001 00:13:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.31.46) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 01:14:55 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:13:50 -0800 Received: from 204.160.183.12 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:13:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.12] To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:13:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2001 00:13:50.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C233A70:01C096E4] From: "miKi mn" From: "Snow" >Kevan said: > > > 3. Have more emphasis on creating Special Rulesets which is > > more in character with Traditional MC, so the basic game remains > > reasonably simple and hence straightforward for newcomers and old > > timers like myself who have lost the plot. > > > > This seems a good way to go. A sturdy, static basic ruleset, but > > which can be used to play dynamic Nomic games (or to replay previous > > Special Rulesets, of course). > >This sounds exactly right provided the nomic games only affect the >Special Rulesets, not the 'static' basic ruleset. This gets right to the nub of the matter - if we are going to make any progress, I suggest that we do something like have a go at getting the rules into a decent starting point by whatever method we choose - maybe PaulWay's idea of us each doing a setion is a good one, and then we play the basis rules (and those only) and allow the nomic to work in a way in which we agree. After a time when things are settled, we can then set it in stone and start developing Special Rules. I agree with whoever it was that suggested that having the individual special rules small in scope so that one can plug and play a great number of combinations. I can even envisage a "What special rules are you playing?" webpage where one can click on the options one would like and the relevent, complete, ruleset for those selections would be returned. An extension of that idea is to call the add-ons "Options", as in the "Finsbury Option" from York which acts in addition to the standard rules, but that there could also be "Variants" which modify the standard rules. For example, the Ongar Variant might have a different mechanism for determining a change in LV. This could also be accomplished using a web-based interface-type thing. It does, however, require someone to write the thing, and I have no clue whatsoever when it comes to web-based programming. Thoughts please, Mind the gap, - miKi _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From paulway@e... Wed Feb 14 16:16:43 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 15 Feb 2001 00:16:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 63857 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 00:16:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2001 00:16:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 01:17:37 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010215001631.JPDY26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:16:31 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010215111607.009e42e0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:16:30 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier In-Reply-To: <006901c09643$64281ea0$0200000a@richardmayhew> References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 04:02 PM 14/02/2001, you wrote: >What if (after an initial period of confusion, angst and all that) the >Standard Ruleset could only be amended by moving rules from the >non-Standard rulesets? Cunning, and brilliant. Sounds like an excellent idea. I'm 100% behind it. Paul From snowl@s... Thu Feb 15 11:16:15 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 15 Feb 2001 19:16:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 70195 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 19:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2001 19:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 19:16:12 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.115] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14TTsw-0004q1-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:16:11 +0000 Message-ID: <004d01c09783$ac0088c0$73877ed4@snow> To: References: Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:14:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Miki wrote: > From: "Snow" > >Kevan said: > > > > 3. Have more emphasis on creating Special Rulesets which is > > > more in character with Traditional MC, so the basic game remains > > > reasonably simple and hence straightforward for newcomers and old > > > timers like myself who have lost the plot. > > > > > > This seems a good way to go. A sturdy, static basic ruleset, but > > > which can be used to play dynamic Nomic games (or to replay previous > > > Special Rulesets, of course). > > > >This sounds exactly right provided the nomic games only affect the > >Special Rulesets, not the 'static' basic ruleset. > > This gets right to the nub of the matter - if we are going to make any > progress, I suggest that we do something like have a go at getting the rules > into a decent starting point by whatever method we choose - maybe PaulWay's > idea of us each doing a setion is a good one, and then we play the basis > rules (and those only) and allow the nomic to work in a way in which we > agree. After a time when things are settled, we can then set it in stone and > start developing Special Rules. > > I agree with whoever it was that suggested that having the individual > special rules small in scope so that one can plug and play a great number of > combinations. I can even envisage a "What special rules are you playing?" > webpage where one can click on the options one would like and the relevent, > complete, ruleset for those selections would be returned. > > An extension of that idea is to call the add-ons "Options", as in the > "Finsbury Option" from York which acts in addition to the standard rules, > but that there could also be "Variants" which modify the standard rules. For > example, the Ongar Variant might have a different mechanism for determining > a change in LV. This could also be accomplished using a web-based > interface-type thing. It does, however, require someone to write the thing, > and I have no clue whatsoever when it comes to web-based programming. I agree with all of this except for the method used to get there. The basic ruleset should be approached in a holistic fashion; anyone following last summer's discussions will realise that you can't sensibly discuss x without also considering the knock-on effect on y and z. On the other hand where possible we should try to concentrate on the same part of the ruleset at the same time, so it can be discussed properly and inclusivly (hopefully to unanmity). -- Snow (wondering how many different ways I can spell uniamity) From paulway@e... Thu Feb 15 16:06:06 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 00:06:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 90104 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 00:06:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 00:06:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 01:07:09 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010216000602.XSGQ26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:06:02 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010216095029.01e20eb0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:06:01 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier In-Reply-To: <00a501c096dc$0bb114e0$52837ed4@snow> References: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 09:40 AM 15/02/2001, you wrote: >I want a democratic system, but nothing so clunky as what we have now. >It should be able to cope with discussions that last weeks (or >months), but not turn minor problems into bureacratic nightmares. I agree with your idea here, but I'd like to propose (heh) an idea to take the overriding control of the process off the hands of the speaker. Any person can propose an idea, whether it be a nebulous preference or actual rule text. E then becomes the 'referee' for that proposal. Votes are collected by em, discussion is moderated and processed by em, and in general e is responsible for the process of taking that idea and turning it into a rule that everyone agrees on. Near unanimity should be the goal, but people are encouraged to construct rather than block. >From having been the Speaker in Thring and from seeing the workload that gets passed to the Speaker in this game, I think it's a good idea to free them from as much administration as possible. So in my mind they should be the ones to do the updates of the ruleset, but that should be reduced to a simple matter of copy and paste. This sounds exactly right provided the nomic games only affect the >Special Rulesets, not the 'static' basic ruleset. Yep. I think a standard guide (but not a hard-and-fast rule) should be that a rule should survive one play in a Special ruleset before being considered for addition to the 'IMCS standard' Ruleset. And even then, I can see things like Clothing and Currents being permanently in Special Rulesets. Paul From dunx@d... Fri Feb 16 07:46:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 30819 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 16:47:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 27399 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (207.225.86.107) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:47:09 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Rulesets Aplenty Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:49:45 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <01021323050304.01611@dagon> <00a701c096dc$0d43e9e0$52837ed4@snow> In-Reply-To: <00a701c096dc$0d43e9e0$52837ed4@snow> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021607000400.02892@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, you wrote: > Dunx said: > > 1. the original ruleset is perhaps a touch too complicated > > ... > > but there's actually a lot > > less really difficult stuff in the Game than first appears > and most > > of what there is adds to the Game. > > I think the first part of this sentence is the key point to the whole > discussion, it isn't difficult it's just complicated. Indeed. > The second part > I not sure about, I think most of the ruleset subtracts from the game. I think I would agree with you on that point, but I suspect our positions diverge somewhat after that. My thinking is that the core mechanics don't need to be touched since they've been proven workable over several games, but that a lot of the fluff which has accreted needs to be separated from the basic rules. > > Ole's suggestion of freezing the standard rules to untried > additions is > > also sound to my eyes. > > The more static the better in my eyes. Indeed, especially if we can keep a ruleset stable through the duration of a single game! > > 2. I'm not really in a position to cavil over the replacement > ruleset which > > was worked on over the Summer last year since I could have > joined in > > but didn't, but I'm not sure I like it much. I need to read it > again, > > but it seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. > > It's not finished yet! _I_ don't think it's going in the wrong > direction, but that is one of the things we are discussing. I realise it's not finished; I was just saying I didn't like the direction it was taking. Incidentally, the more recent version of the new ruleset you've uploaded is unreadable on any browser I have access to (NS4.7 and NS6 on Linux). Forward, anyway. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Fri Feb 16 07:46:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 69885 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 16:47:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 27407 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (207.225.86.107) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:47:11 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:00:18 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> <00a801c096dc$0e0d5460$52837ed4@snow> In-Reply-To: <00a801c096dc$0e0d5460$52837ed4@snow> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021607034501.02892@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Snow wrote: > PaulWay said: > > >Do we have a(n active) Speaker? > > > > I'd volunteer Dunx, since he did an excellent job, but if necessary > I'll do > > the job. Some weeks I have time free, some weeks I don't. > > Officially I'm still Speaker, but I'd like to get rid of the role so I > can stop being diplomatic. Since Dunx is willing I'll second the > nomination. Well, if no one else has any objections I'll setup the magic phone booth of Speaker transformation over the weekend. In particular, I'll write up a formal process proposal so we have something concrete to argue about. Forward, to a future of brighter tokens! -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Fri Feb 16 07:46:55 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 7390 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 27418 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (207.225.86.107) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:47:13 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:04:12 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> <5.0.0.25.1.20010216095029.01e20eb0@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20010216095029.01e20eb0@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021607093302.02892@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx PaulWay wrote: > Any person can propose an idea, whether it be a nebulous preference or > actual rule text. E then becomes the 'referee' for that proposal. Votes > are collected by em, discussion is moderated and processed by em, and in > general e is responsible for the process of taking that idea and turning it > into a rule that everyone agrees on. Near unanimity should be the goal, > but people are encouraged to construct rather than block. That seems a reasonable basis. My thinking was in particular that any changes to basic rules should be entirely unanimous, including transfer of elements from a special ruleset into the basic rules, but that special ruleset changes might be managed using majority voting. > From having been the Speaker in Thring and from seeing the workload that > gets passed to the Speaker in this game, I think it's a good idea to free > them from as much administration as possible. So in my mind they should be > the ones to do the updates of the ruleset, but that should be reduced to a > simple matter of copy and paste. I would certainly endorse that point, as I'm sure Snow and Kevan can too. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Fri Feb 16 07:47:01 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 31205 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 27455 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (207.225.86.107) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:47:17 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Proposed Starting Point Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:27:53 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021607471904.02892@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx OK, we need to have something concrete to argue about. This message is an outline of what I intend to write up more formally over the weekend. First of all, we should take as the starting point for discussion the last version of the old ruleset. I suggest this primarily because the core mechanics of that ruleset have been play tested reasonably thoroughly, rather than to denigrate the fine work on the newer ruleset. Secondly, the structure of the rules shall be that a core set of game mechanics (called the "Basic Ruleset") should remain largely static (except for bug fixes, but that's a process issue). The Basic Ruleset will be supplemented by various Special Rulesets which can be much more mutable. We may want to classify these Special Rulesets as "Options" or "Variants", where Options add to the Basic Ruleset but Variants modify the Basic Ruleset. This may or may not be a useful distinction to draw: after all, Variants could conceivably modify Options, but the goal would be in this structure a modular ruleset. (a point worth mentioning is that the name "Special Ruleset" becomes misleading since these optional bits and bobs are likely to make up the majority of text in the ruleset as a whole) Thirdly, we should accept that in order to get the ruleset sane again, we need a two phase process: 1/ defining a core ruleset - unanimity required 2/ adding special rulesets - majority voting acceptable We can't really start playing games again until /1/ has reached some kind of conclusion. Finally, the process for modifying Rules will vary depending on which Rules are being modified: changing the Basic Rules should continue to require unanimity, whereas Special Rules might be changed by simple majority. What I shall flesh out over the next couple of days are the administrative processes, probably using Section 0 as a basis but simplifying certain elements. OK? -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Fri Feb 16 07:47:04 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 54980 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:46:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 15:46:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 16:48:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 27440 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 15:47:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (207.225.86.107) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 15:47:16 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:23:34 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> <5.0.0.25.1.20010216095029.01e20eb0@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20010216095029.01e20eb0@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021607271603.02892@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx PaulWay wrote:> Any person can propose an idea, whether it be a nebulous preference or > actual rule text. E then becomes the 'referee' for that proposal. Votes > are collected by em, discussion is moderated and processed by em, and in > general e is responsible for the process of taking that idea and turning it > into a rule that everyone agrees on. Near unanimity should be the goal, > but people are encouraged to construct rather than block. That seems a reasonable basis. My thinking was in particular that any changes to basic rules should be entirely unanimous, including transfer of elements from a special ruleset into the basic rules, but that special ruleset changes might be managed using majority voting. Having said that, this process is probably not going to advisable until we have a reasonably stable basic ruleset - as Snow mentioned elsewhere, the core rules are best considered as a whole. > From having been the Speaker in Thring and from seeing the workload that > gets passed to the Speaker in this game, I think it's a good idea to free > them from as much administration as possible. So in my mind they should be > the ones to do the updates of the ruleset, but that should be reduced to a > simple matter of copy and paste. I would certainly endorse that point, as I'm sure Snow and Kevan can too. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From david@d... Fri Feb 16 10:01:55 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: david@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 16 Feb 2001 18:01:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 71564 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2001 18:01:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2001 18:01:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Feb 2001 18:01:53 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id MAA13074 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:00:37 -0600 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:00:37 -0600 (CST) To: Mornington Nomic Discussion List Subject: Experimentation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch One thought for adding new rules: When we get a working base ruleset, modify it to allow for shorter games and use that when consensus is that a rule might want to be play-tested before it's enacted into the final version -- esentially the experimentation ruleset. - David James Lynch - david@d... From snowl@s... Sat Feb 17 14:36:12 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 17 Feb 2001 22:36:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 8146 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2001 22:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Feb 2001 22:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Feb 2001 22:36:11 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.245] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14UFxZ-000Dif-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:36:09 +0000 Message-ID: <00ac01c09931$efc22820$f54c08c3@snow> To: References: <01021323050304.01611@dagon> <00a701c096dc$0d43e9e0$52837ed4@snow> <01021607000400.02892@dagon> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Rulesets Aplenty Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:46:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx said: > Incidentally, the more recent version of the new ruleset you've uploaded > is unreadable on any browser I have access to (NS4.7 and NS6 on Linux). Hmm, I check things on IE5 and lynx. I generally assume that anything in between will work. It's mostly W3C standard HTML+CSS with a few bits of HTML that should fail in a readable fashion. I suspect a partial implementation of CSS is too blame. I've removed the CSS stuff from the template, does this help? I guess the moral is to always use W3C standard HTML and never use Netscape. -- Snow (Considering Opera) From snowl@s... Sat Feb 17 14:36:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 17 Feb 2001 22:36:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 8184 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2001 22:36:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Feb 2001 22:36:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Feb 2001 22:36:12 -0000 Received: from [195.8.76.245] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14UFxa-000Dif-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:36:11 +0000 Message-ID: <00ad01c09931$f0826ae0$f54c08c3@snow> To: References: <966cdf+10qfp@eGroups.com> <5.0.0.25.1.20010216095029.01e20eb0@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:54:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > Any person can propose an idea, whether it be a nebulous preference or > actual rule text. E then becomes the 'referee' for that proposal. Votes > are collected by em, discussion is moderated and processed by em, and in > general e is responsible for the process of taking that idea and turning it > into a rule that everyone agrees on. Near unanimity should be the goal, > but people are encouraged to construct rather than block. > > From having been the Speaker in Thring and from seeing the workload that > gets passed to the Speaker in this game, I think it's a good idea to free > them from as much administration as possible. So in my mind they should be > the ones to do the updates of the ruleset, but that should be reduced to a > simple matter of copy and paste. I agree with everything you and Dunx said (about the debate system) with 3 minor caveats. 1) The static ruleset should not require unanimous agreement to make changes, but a higher majority (say 75%). I say this because once we have a stable playable ruleset I will vote -1 for everything that isn't a bug fix; and I don't want my view to get in the way of what might be the majority. 2) There should only be one 'major' discussion at a time. Chosen by the Speaker from suggestion from players. Minor details can be dealt with in the background. 3) I should try to remember my 3rd point. -- Snow (I did have a 3rd one, but it appears to have left my brain) From paulway@e... Sun Feb 18 02:58:04 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 18 Feb 2001 10:58:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 24657 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2001 10:58:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Feb 2001 10:58:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Feb 2001 10:58:03 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010218105801.TLPH26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:58:01 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010218215506.01e42680@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:58:00 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Proposed Starting Point In-Reply-To: <01021607471904.02892@dagon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 06:27 PM 16/02/2001, you wrote: >We may want to classify these Special Rulesets as "Options" or "Variants", >where Options add to the Basic Ruleset but Variants modify the Basic >Ruleset. This may or may not be a useful distinction to draw: after all, >Variants could conceivably modify Options, but the goal would be in this >structure a modular ruleset. An excellent proposition. Although it might be considered to be a small difference, the precedence issue alone indicates that this distinction is worth making. And to have separate conditions by which proposals for each are judged is good too. >What I shall flesh out over the next couple of days are the administrative >processes, probably using Section 0 as a basis but simplifying certain >elements. 100% with you there. Any part I can do, let me know. I've still got days free now that I'm on my second week of late shift. Have fun, Paul From paulway@e... Sun Feb 18 17:58:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 19 Feb 2001 01:58:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 32873 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2001 01:58:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2001 01:58:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Feb 2001 01:58:18 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010219015815.YSEM26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:58:15 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010219124831.00a15a90@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:58:12 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 11:13 AM 15/02/2001, you wrote: >I agree with whoever it was that suggested that having the individual >special rules small in scope so that one can plug and play a great number of >combinations. I can even envisage a "What special rules are you playing?" >webpage where one can click on the options one would like and the relevent, >complete, ruleset for those selections would be returned. I like this idea a lot. This reminds me also of my other idea, which is to start the new attempt at the ruleset off being formatted in HTML. If we start with consistent formatting, then things just fall into place. Tables become easier to read, sections and subsections become easier to identify, bulletted and numbered lists become simple, etcetera. It also becomes possible to build a ruleset parser, a ruleset modifier web tool, and other useful gadgets that make everyone's lives (especially the Speaker's) much easier. I also foresee the possibility of using XML (thought I don't even know how to write it), and having a Ruleset Formatter like miKi has proposed above: specify which combination of rulesets you're playing under and the engine spits out the list of all rules that apply. I must look up a good XML tutorial on the web. Have fun, Paul From paulway@e... Mon Feb 19 15:23:07 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 19 Feb 2001 23:23:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 21437 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2001 23:08:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2001 23:08:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Feb 2001 23:08:31 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010219230829.IMAO26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:08:29 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010219125852.00a180f0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:09:38 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier In-Reply-To: <00a801c096dc$0e0d5460$52837ed4@snow> References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 10:10 AM 15/02/2001, you wrote: >I don't like this at all. We'll just end up with people trying to >implement moving with actions, becuase they're in charge of actions >and the person in charge of moves is not being co-operative. Everyone >should have equal say on all subjects. Furthermore where possible >everyone should be encoaraged to have a say on all subjects, the more >people put their input in the more likely we are to get the best >solution. Well, I was advocating co-operation and interaction, but I can see your worst-case scenario. Personally, I think if we need movement in actions (and, given that Wild moves are one of the fundamental components of MC play as I see it, I think we do) then the coordinators of those two topics get together in email and nut out a complete structure. Then they put it up for everyone to review. Only when you have a 75% majority (the figure being bandied about currently) does that set of rules get added. I guess I see coordinators as the people who guide the process of setting up the rules. I think the ruleset we're trying to create is too complex for one person to hold all the 'concept' (ie. the modus operandi and grand scheme) of each facet of play in eir head for too long before it all gets to be a gooey paste. Paul From dunx@d... Mon Feb 19 22:44:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 20 Feb 2001 06:44:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 92773 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2001 06:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2001 06:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Feb 2001 07:45:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 16849 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2001 06:44:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (207.225.66.131) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 20 Feb 2001 06:44:50 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:42:14 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="Boundary-=_nWlrBbmQBhCDarzOwKkYHIDdqSCD" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> From: Dunx --Boundary-=_nWlrBbmQBhCDarzOwKkYHIDdqSCD Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friends: Attached is an initial suggestion for the process part of a reconstituted Morning Nomic. Basically, it is Section 0 of the old Ruleset with some modifications. I'll give a summary of those modifications in a moment, but I thought I'd say where I thought we should go next. What I suggest here is to follow a version of the modified Proposal process described in the new Section 0, treating this Section as a single big Proposal and with myself as the Proposer. Obviously this can't properly be constituted under the new process, since it has not yet been Passed into the Rules, but since I assume we are treating any previous rulesets as being in abeyance then we have to start somewhere. Once we have agreed what the core mechanics shoud look like, we can start constructing a basic ruleset in earnest. I have deliberately not codified any concepts of focussing the discussion on specific topics, since that's not truly a mechanical issue. So, what has changed? The main thing which is different from the old Section 0 is the Proposal process: rather than being tied to the end the Nomic Week and being managed exclusively by the Speaker, I've made the Players responsible for their own Proposals and have decoupled Voting from the end of the Week, as well as making Voting a public act. This is all predicated on Mornington Nomic no longer being competitive in the Nomic space, all the cut throat attacks are confined to the Mornington Crescent map. What I think should happen with a Proposal is as follows: 1/ someone has an idea, and puts together a Proposal embodying this idea. So far, so similar to the current process, although I suggest that for most Proposals it is worth thrashing out an idea publically before constructing a Proposal. 2/ the Player puts on eir Proposer hat and formally issues the Proposal by posting it to the list. This can be done at any time of Week, and does not require the Speaker's involvement (although it is up to the Speaker to avoid duplicates). Each Proposal has a unique Proposal number, just as currently. 3/ other Players Vote. I've suggested that the Proposer not be allowed to Vote on eir Proposal. Votes are posted to the discussion list within a calendar week of the Proposal being issued. 4/ once the Voting is completed, the Proposer tallies the Votes and publishes the result. If the Proposal passed to the appropriate standard, the Proposer then edits the ruleset accordingly. Note that only one Proposer can edit the ruleset at once. Permission to edit the document is sought from the Speaker, and (in the strictest interpretation) if you don't have this permission any changes you make will not be accepted. In practice, if changes do not affect the same areas of the ruleset, then simultaneous editing would be allowed. 5/ if a Proposal fails, the Proposer is allowed to solicit feedback and reissue the Proposal with any changes deemed necessary, but it is considered a new Proposal with a new Proposal number and everything. That's it. apart from caveats about Players using common sense in not continually resubmitting Proposals which no one Votes for and not being capricious in their Votes. The Speaker has no role except to act as a guarantor of the consistency of the Ruleset. Another significant change is that I have reintroduced immutability, and different degrees thereof. Immutability is a property present in many Nomics (and originally in this one too) which is applied to Rules to stop them being changed maliciously. What I have tried to do here is to codify degrees of immutability linked to how powerful the mandate required for change is. I've also made these controls applicable to sections and volumes rather than just rules, which is the mechanism I suggest using to stabilise the basic ruleset once we have agreed its content. There are not many other big changes which are not concomitant to the above, apart from what has been removed: - Kudos: always difficult to administer, increasingly irrelevant in the old ruleset, but utterly futile now that the Nomic part is no longer competitive. I weep for the loss of whimsy only. - Mentors: they speak of an earlier time when the ruleset was unnavigable without aid. And when we're all finding our way anyway... Obviously all comments are welcome on what I've done here, but particular points I'm interested in: - mutability: I haven't offered any suggestion for the mutability modifiers of any Rules in this first draft, primarily because I've run out of intellectual energy to make sensible decisions on this point. All suggestions welcome. - Roles: I have made mention of different roles which Players have within the Game. Is this useful terminology? - Week-End: I've moved this to 1200 GMT Tuesday, which is where it started in the first ruleset. The 1800 Tuesday time was introduced because the Speaker was very unlikely to do the Week-End admin until that time in the evening, and this gave Players another six hours to get their bits and bobs in. With the Speaker's role in Proposal administration reduced, there seems less reason for this otherwise confusing time. - ruleset format: I've stuck to a text file for the moment. I'm not hostile to XML or HTML formats, but text is most widely readable and is easily edited. I'm also loath to change this aspect of the Game along with everything else right at the moment. - Special Rulesets: I've had a go at defining Options and Variants. Are these satisfactory? - Points of Order and EPs: these are unchanged, since they seem to be useful panic measures. - Game Time: we're well into Year Four now, by the terms of The Theocracy of Muntab. I hereby declare Week 1 started last April and continues until tomorrow. Returning to how to get going here, I'm putting forward this initial draft as a discussion document rather than yet being any kind of formal Proposal. When this goes to a Vote, I'm looking for some variety of unanimity, not because it is necessarily required (indeed, I am hoping to keep the Mechanics section mostly easily changeable) but because it probably makes sense at this stage. See what you all think. -- Dunx Nihilism? 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Wed Feb 21 20:23:06 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riffraff@p... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 22 Feb 2001 04:23:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 78989 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2001 04:23:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Feb 2001 04:23:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail16.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.47) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Feb 2001 04:23:05 -0000 Received: œby mail16.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11480; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:23:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:23:04 -0800 Message-Id: <200102220423.UAA11480@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [151.201.244.51] To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? From: "RiffRaff ." Great Caesar's Ghost! I leave my e-mail for a couple days, come back, and there's about a million MC posts... >I'm still here. I'm still waiting for something to happen... I might be >able to contribute, but I have a minor philosophical problem with the way >the ruleset has gone. Actually, I used some of the intervening time to edit and re-write the original MN ruleset (rather imperialistically, I might add, if that were a word) to make it work with the physical board I've got. We've only tested it up to Complexity Level 2 (the "Basic Rules"), but it works well so far. I could post them somewhere if there's interest. Note however that I destroyed most of the stuff that made it playable over e-mail. --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------ Listen to POWERPUFF-FM on the SonicBox iM Tuner-FREE DOWNLOAD! http://store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?sonicbox+Gq9BSR+index.html From paulway@e... Thu Feb 22 14:25:15 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 22 Feb 2001 22:25:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 96469 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2001 22:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Feb 2001 22:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 22 Feb 2001 23:26:06 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010222222500.TOMV26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:00 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010223092250.009e0d20@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:00 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? In-Reply-To: <200102220423.UAA11480@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 03:23 PM 22/02/2001, you wrote: >Actually, I used some of the intervening time to edit and re-write the >original MN ruleset (rather imperialistically, I might add, if that were a >word) to make it work with the physical board I've got. We've only tested >it up to Complexity Level 2 (the "Basic Rules"), but it works well so >far. I could post them somewhere if there's interest. Note however that >I destroyed most of the stuff that made it playable over e-mail. Actually, call me deranged and in need of better things to do with my time, but the idea of playing 'Real' MC at a Pilgrimage is very very tempting. And no doubt you've had a look at some of the problems that we'll have to look at as well. Have fun, Paul From riffraff@p... Thu Feb 22 19:49:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riffraff@p... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Feb 2001 03:49:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 25605 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 03:49:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2001 03:49:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.bigmailbox.com) (209.132.220.34) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 03:49:39 -0000 Received: œby mail3.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19244; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:49:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:49:38 -0800 Message-Id: <200102230349.TAA19244@m...> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [151.201.244.51] To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? From: "RiffRaff ." >To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com >From: Paul Wayper >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:00 +1100 >Reply-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: MN: Are we alive? > >At 03:23 PM 22/02/2001, you wrote: >>Actually, I used some of the intervening time to edit and re-write the >>original MN ruleset (rather imperialistically, I might add, if that were a >>word) to make it work with the physical board I've got. We've only tested >>it up to Complexity Level 2 (the "Basic Rules"), but it works well so >>far. I could post them somewhere if there's interest. Note however that >>I destroyed most of the stuff that made it playable over e-mail. > >Actually, call me deranged and in need of better things to do with my time, >but the idea of playing 'Real' MC at a Pilgrimage is very very >tempting. And no doubt you've had a look at some of the problems that >we'll have to look at as well. Hokay, I'll get them up... I've got to go through and add some of the changes we made while testing. Might take a bit, as my free time is being demolished by a stack of new videogames and a bizarre little card game called "1000 Blank White Cards", but I'll try and find some time this weekend. :) cheers, --Riff ------------------------------------------------------------ Listen to POWERPUFF-FM on the SonicBox iM Tuner-FREE DOWNLOAD! http://store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?sonicbox+Gq9BSR+index.html From dunx@d... Thu Feb 22 21:35:43 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Feb 2001 05:35:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 80487 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 05:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2001 05:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 05:35:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 14745 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 05:36:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (216.161.81.192) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 05:36:00 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:25:13 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> In-Reply-To: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022221363609.13589@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, you wrote: > Attached is an initial suggestion for the process part of a > reconstituted Morning Nomic. Basically, it is Section 0 of the old > Ruleset with some modifications. I'll give a summary of those > modifications in a moment, but I thought I'd say where I thought we > should go next. No comments then? Should I take that as unanimous approval, or disinterest? It is quite a long document, I suppose, but I thought it would be quite easy to digest since it was so close in content to the old Section 0. A few comments of my own, anyway: Mandates: I'm fairly sure most of the Mandates given won't be any use. In particular, Total Unianimity seems far too demanding for any realy work, whilst Simple Majority seems too weak to be safe. Mutability: I'm going to leave all of the Section 0 Rules as the default for now, because I can't see there's any percentage in doing anything else initially. That's all I had based on rereading the document when I was more awake. Anybody else? Something I obviously haven't done yet is upload this onto the web site. I shall notify you when that's done. But if that's all, then I'll put this section to a vote shortly. Cheers. -- Dunx There is no spoon. From david@d... Fri Feb 23 09:58:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: david@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Feb 2001 17:57:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 34752 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 17:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2001 17:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 18:46:51 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id LAA09282 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:45:31 -0600 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:45:31 -0600 (CST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions In-Reply-To: <01022221363609.13589@dagon> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Dunx wrote: > No comments then? Should I take that as unanimous approval, or disinterest? Take it as lack of time, in my case. It's sitting here in Pine waiting for my reading as soon as I have more than a few seconds for e-mail. - David James Lynch - david@d... From dunx@d... Fri Feb 23 12:05:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Feb 2001 20:05:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 5468 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 19:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Feb 2001 19:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 19:57:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 27572 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 19:57:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.202.32) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 19:57:30 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:56:25 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022311580804.16494@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, you wrote: > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Dunx wrote: > > > No comments then? Should I take that as unanimous approval, or disinterest? > > Take it as lack of time, in my case. It's sitting here in Pine waiting for > my reading as soon as I have more than a few seconds for e-mail. Of course. I'll do that walk through I mentioned since I should think that might help in reading the document. Also, I should apologise for the somewhat arch tone of my last message. I was a bit tired. Cheers. -- Dunx There is no spoon. From paulway@e... Fri Feb 23 12:16:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Feb 2001 20:16:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 35625 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 20:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Feb 2001 20:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010223200909.EGOS26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:09:09 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:09:08 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions In-Reply-To: <01022221363609.13589@dagon> References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 08:25 AM 23/02/2001, you wrote: >No comments then? Should I take that as unanimous approval, or disinterest? Sorry, but I must have missed the attachment. I didn't see the attachment on your email, but when I looked at the copy online it showed me the ruleset that you had attached to your email, Dunx. This must be some curious filtering on yahoo's behalf, or else my email program isn't obeying MIME (which would be more curious). >It is quite a long document, I suppose, but I thought it would be quite >easy to digest since it was so close in content to the old Section 0. This is what stands out to me (not necessarily wrong) at first impression: # Have we always had section 0.2.3? It strikes a bell somewhere (probably in my old Thring archives). # The idea for Mandate and Mutability seems to remind me curiously of Ackanomic. If we get to the stage where repealed rules are not actually edited out but are marked "Repealed" and filed away in a corner somewhere, I'll know we've been infiltrated by the Ackanomic Secret Service. While I agree with Dunx that Mandate seems rather simple and needs more subtlety, I can't work out exactly what that might be or find anything else to add (at this stage). # I'd like to suggest a change here: rework 0.4.1 here to read: Each Proposal submitted by a Player should have a name (typically summing up the aim of the Proposal in a few words, optionally in the form of a pun), a Type, any amount of text stating what the Proposal should do if it is Voted through, and any amount of commented text explaining anything the Proposer feels the need to explain. All the manipulations of the Ruleset in one Proposal should generally have one general aim or effect. Proposals may be of the following types:- * Enactment - To create one or more new Rules to be added to the Ruleset. Enactments may specify the Volume and/or Section of the new Rule(s), which are created if they don't already exist. * Amendment - To change the wording of one or more existing Rules in the manner detailed in the Proposal. * Repeal - To remove one or more Rules, as specified by the Proposal, from the Ruleset. * Multiple - A combination of Enactments, Amendments and Repeals in any order. * Renumbering - To renumber all the Rule Numbers in a particular Subsection, or to renumber a single Rule. * Resignation - To force another Player to Resign. * Mutability - To change the Mutability Modifier of a Rule, Section, or Volume. Commented text is signified by surrounding it with curly braces, and is entirely ignored if the Proposal passes and alters the Ruleset. All I'm really changing is taking away the necessity to use Multiple Proposals all the time to get any real work done. If you're doing a bunch of enactments then it should just be an enactment. That and a bit of wanton tidying :-) # Is there any reason why Proposals can't be numbered arbitrarily, so long as they haven't been used before? We need to avoid continual reposts of proposals due to the inevitable "when I checked my mail that proposal number was free..." conflicts. I think the best way is for each Player to have a prefix which they alone use: e.g. my Proposals would be Proposal PW001, PW002, etc. Doesn't have to be specifically two initials: Proposal GrandPoohBah140D_20010301a could be OK as well (if somewhat sesquipedalian). Once again, a simple matter of leaving it to the players themselves to sort out. Of course, having some sort of order to the numbering would be encouraged (i.e. sequential proposals from the same proposer being numbered Thing44 then Ajax921 then THX1138 would be right out). After all, if we can fit it in some kind of database for automatic formatting then that'd be good. # 0.5.2 strikes me as being out of place, because it allows only one week for discussion on a Proposal to take place. But then I may be misunderstanding the intent of the Ruleset as it is. Are we aiming for a Proposal to be patched and amended before being Voted for, or are we aiming at patches and amendments involving discarding the old Proposal and Proposing a new one? That's pretty much it, yeah. I'm in favour of the Ruleset generally. Have fun, Paul From dunx@d... Fri Feb 23 16:59:36 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 24 Feb 2001 00:59:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 61771 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2001 00:59:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Feb 2001 00:59:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Feb 2001 00:59:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 8667 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2001 00:59:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.202.32) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 24 Feb 2001 00:59:55 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:06:11 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022317003208.16494@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, you wrote: > At 08:25 AM 23/02/2001, you wrote: > >No comments then? Should I take that as unanimous approval, or disinterest? > > Sorry, but I must have missed the attachmentT. That's very odd, isn't it? It's partly my fault for not putting this stuff up on the web page, of course, something I shall rectify this weekend. > This is what stands out to me (not necessarily wrong) at first impression: > > # Have we always had section 0.2.3? It strikes a bell somewhere (probably > in my old Thring archives). That's always been there, yes - or at least, it's a section which is unchanged from the latest version of the old Section 0. As for the Thring similarity, I may be wrong here but I believe that the original Ruleset was drawn in part from Thring. Kevan? > # The idea for Mandate and Mutability seems to remind me curiously of > Ackanomic. If we get to the stage where repealed rules are not actually > edited out but are marked "Repealed" and filed away in a corner somewhere, > I'll know we've been infiltrated by the Ackanomic Secret Service. Not me, guv - I've heard of Ackanomic, but nothing more. Mutability is, as I said, a pretty venerable concept in Nomics (I believe it is even mentioned in Peter Suber's original rules?), whilst Mandate just seemed like the right word. > While I > agree with Dunx that Mandate seems rather simple and needs more subtlety, I > can't work out exactly what that might be or find anything else to add (at > this stage). This is precisely why I'm less keen than I was earlier on in the week on applying any more stringent Mutability constraints to Section 0, particularly to the newest bits. I think we need these ideas, since having something in-game is better than just the edict "thou shalt not change Section 1", but if someone has a blinding flash of insight as to how to make this a more subtle provision then we want it in as quickly as possible. > # I'd like to suggest a change here: rework 0.4.1 here to read: > > Each Proposal submitted by a Player should have a name (typically summing > up the aim of the Proposal in a few words, optionally in the form of a > pun), a Type, any amount of text stating what the Proposal should do > if it is Voted through, and any amount of commented text explaining > anything the Proposer feels the need to explain. All the manipulations > of the Ruleset in one Proposal should generally have one general aim or > effect. > > Proposals may be of the following types:- > > * Enactment - To create one or more new Rules to be added to the > Ruleset. Enactments may specify the Volume and/or > Section of the new Rule(s), which are created if > they don't already exist. > * Amendment - To change the wording of one or more existing Rules > in the manner detailed in the Proposal. > * Repeal - To remove one or more Rules, as specified by the > Proposal, from the Ruleset. > * Multiple - A combination of Enactments, Amendments and Repeals > in any order. > * Renumbering - To renumber all the Rule Numbers in a particular > Subsection, or to renumber a single Rule. > * Resignation - To force another Player to Resign. > * Mutability - To change the Mutability Modifier of a Rule, Section, > or Volume. > > Commented text is signified by surrounding it with curly braces, and > is entirely ignored if the Proposal passes and alters the Ruleset. > > > All I'm really changing is taking away the necessity to use Multiple > Proposals all the time to get any real work done. If you're doing a bunch > of enactments then it should just be an enactment. That and a bit of > wanton tidying :-) I can see what you're aiming for here, but I suspect it's slightly missed the target. In particular, past experience suggests that it is rare to have a Multiple proposal consisting of just Enactments: there is usually at least one Amendment in there too. That usual form may be an artifact of the Byzantine ruleset we had, but I suspect not. I think a cleaner tidy up would be to just say by default that any ruleset manipulation is a Multiple, which can include sections to Enact, Amend, create Special Rulesets, or Repeal, and to leave just the Renumber, Resign and Mutability types separate. > # Is there any reason why Proposals can't be numbered arbitrarily, so long > as they haven't been used before? We need to avoid continual reposts of > proposals due to the inevitable "when I checked my mail that proposal > number was free..." conflicts. That's a good point, well made - I would have thought just using the Player name and an index value (or even a date stamp) would be sufficient. > # 0.5.2 strikes me as being out of place, because it allows only one week > for discussion on a Proposal to take place. But then I may be > misunderstanding the intent of the Ruleset as it is. Are we aiming for a > Proposal to be patched and amended before being Voted for, or are we aiming > at patches and amendments involving discarding the old Proposal and > Proposing a new one? Well, what I was aiming for was that ideas for Proposals should be discussed before a Proposal is even made such that the general form of Proposals would usually be largely decided before Voting opens. I didn't mention this approach explicitly in the ruleset section I put forward because this discussion process would be impossible to define, and indeed would be counter-productive to do so, but I will add a suggestion that that be the case at the top of 0.4.2. The week of discussion is in fact the same period available under the old rules (assuming a Week was a week long, which it usually was), but Proposals were very rarely discussed before submission. Using a calendar week rather than a Nomic Week as teh Voting period was merely a reflection of the decoupling of the Proposal submission process from the Week-End. Hopefully we'll get a less 'spiked' sequence of Proposals coming through. What is deliberately missing is that the Proposer cannot modify a Proposal which is placed before the Players for consideration. BUT e can withdraw it, then immediately submit a modified version with a new Proposal number. Since the Proposal content is likely to have been thrashed out before hand, the most likely reason for such withdrawal and resubmission is typoes. The primary advantage of this system is that there is never any confusion about what is being voted on, because each textually different Proposal will have a distinct ID. The main disadvantage is that it is open to abuse, but then there is much in these suggested procedural rules which is loose and open to such abuse because the focus of MN nowadays is not twisting the Nomic rules to your own advantage. And if I'm wrong about _that_, then you have the wrong Speaker. Anyway, that's what I was trying to do. If I haven't achieved that, then I'd like to know how I can. One further omission: I meant to put in a ban on the Proposer Voting with regard to eir own Proposals. I seem to have missed that out. > That's pretty much it, yeah. I'm in favour of the Ruleset generally. Glad to hear it. I shall put these changes into effect, anyway, and republish this pre-Proposal for consideration. Still aiming to put it to the Vote next week, in any case. -- Dunx There is no spoon. From dunx@d... Sun Feb 25 23:42:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 07:42:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 18227 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 07:42:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 07:42:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 07:42:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 25201 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 07:42:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (216.161.84.251) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 07:42:46 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Update Section 0 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:22:42 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022523301800.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Friends: I've updated the suggested Section 0 I distributed last week. Changes of note are: - 0.4.1: much simplified Proposal Types. The assumption now is that most Proposals are multiple (which I've called "Ruleset" Proposals) and that these can contain any number of Enactments (which now encompass creation of any Ruleset component rather than just Rules), Amendments or Repeals. There is some consequent edits in 0.4.3 and 0.2.1. - 0.4.2: put in Paul's suggestion to make number collisions less likely. - 0.3.5: added a Mandate requirement of Active Unanimity to Resignation Proposals. This modified Section 0 can be found on the MN website, which I've updated slightly. I'm afraid I didn't get very far with the walkthrough document; sorry. I'll try to do it over the next couple of days instead. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Sun Feb 25 23:42:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 07:42:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 18246 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 07:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 07:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 07:42:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 25223 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 07:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (216.161.84.251) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 07:42:49 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Who Is Active? Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:30:19 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Players: Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this information if we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. Thanks. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From palnatoke@g... Mon Feb 26 06:27:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 14:27:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 77981 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 14:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 14:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cicero0.cybercity.dk) (212.242.40.52) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 15:28:47 -0000 Received: from usr02.cybercity.dk (usr02.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.82]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3939A102957 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:27:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from richardmayhew (port10.ds1-boet.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.142.75]) by usr02.cybercity.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA96949 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:27:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from palnatoke@g...) Message-ID: <005501c0a000$36def740$0200000a@richardmayhew> To: References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> Subject: Re: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:27:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" ... : Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on : the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this information if : we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. I am Active. Sort of, at least. I hate the flu. Ole -- Ole Andersen Br=F8ndby=F8ster, Denmark palnatoke@g... http://palnatoke.blogspot.com The test of ahimsa is the absence of jealousy. The man whose heart never cherishes even the thought of injury to anyone, who rejoices at the prosperity of even his greatest enemy, that man is the bhakta, he is the yogi, he is the guru of all. -Swami Vivekananda (1863-1902) From gthoele@G... Mon Feb 26 08:50:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gthoele@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 16:50:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 66538 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 16:50:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 16:50:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 16:50:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 3017 invoked by uid 0); 26 Feb 2001 16:50:23 -0000 Received: from pd9042894.dip.t-dialin.net (217.4.40.148) by mail.gmx.net (mail07) with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 16:50:23 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:51:12 +0100 References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> In-Reply-To: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gunnar Thoele Hallo! >Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on I am. Note that i still don't have a clue about how to play (new player), but that'll come soon... -- Gunnar From paulway@e... Mon Feb 26 10:40:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 18:40:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 18:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 18:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 18:40:23 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010226184020.EXMH26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:40:20 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010225103026.01f36780@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:40:20 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions In-Reply-To: <01022317003208.16494@dagon> References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 03:06 AM 24/02/2001, you wrote: >It's partly my fault for not putting this stuff up on the web page, of >course, something I shall rectify this weekend. > >Not me, guv - I've heard of Ackanomic, but nothing more. Mutability is, >as I said, a pretty venerable concept in Nomics (I believe it is even >mentioned in Peter Suber's original rules?), whilst Mandate just seemed >like the right word. Ackanomic is the longest-running (I believe it is still running) game of Nomic played on the Internet. It has many interesting features, not the least of which being Rules are given a Mutability factor, and repealed Rules stay in the Ruleset rather than being discarded (presumably so that you don't get an old idea reproposed by the unknowing). It's huge. >I can see what you're aiming for here, but I suspect it's slightly >missed the target. In particular, past experience suggests that it is >rare to have a Multiple proposal consisting of just Enactments: there is >usually at least one Amendment in there too. I agree that there were a lot of Multiple Proposals because you had to update the Action table and/or other tables when proposing a new Action or whatever. But I believe that in this new game there will be considerable instances where people want to enact entire sets of rules, or amend several rules. I'm also a great believer in the idea of fitting new concepts into old structure. Particularly, fitting new items into existing tables, like new Actions into the Action Cost Table (1.5.0 or whatever it was). What I'd like to see is ways to do this automatically, or at least without having to physically raise an amendment. I think a cleaner tidy up would be to just say by default that any >ruleset manipulation is a Multiple, which can include sections to Enact, >Amend, create Special Rulesets, or Repeal, and to leave just the >Renumber, Resign and Mutability types separate. This has its merits too. >What is deliberately missing is that the Proposer cannot modify a >Proposal which is placed before the Players for consideration. BUT e can >withdraw it, then immediately submit a modified version with a new >Proposal number. Since the Proposal content is likely to have been >thrashed out before hand, the most likely reason for such withdrawal and >resubmission is typoes. I've been wondering about a more formalised 'protoProposal' stage, where a Proposal is published but not yet available to be voted on. Only when the Proposer feels confident of a response does the Proposal actually have to go to Voting. But I think if we informally agree to nut things out on the list then this will serve as well. Have fun, Paul From paulway@e... Mon Feb 26 10:41:32 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 18:41:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 18:41:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 18:41:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 18:41:30 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010226184129.EXRF26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:41:29 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010227054116.00a8da20@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:41:28 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Who Is Active? In-Reply-To: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 06:30 PM 26/02/2001, you wrote: >Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on >the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this information if >we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. Active. PaulWay From dunx@d... Mon Feb 26 11:49:02 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 19:49:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 87322 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 19:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 19:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 19:48:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 8306 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 19:49:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.202.141) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 19:49:20 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:49:30 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> In-Reply-To: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022611500905.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, I wrote: > Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on > the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this information if > we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. I'd better declare myself as Active too. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Mon Feb 26 11:51:47 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 19:51:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 1662 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 19:51:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 19:51:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 19:51:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 9766 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 19:51:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.202.141) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 19:51:56 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:50:56 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> <005501c0a000$36def740$0200000a@richardmayhew> In-Reply-To: <005501c0a000$36def740$0200000a@richardmayhew> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022611524506.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ole wrote: > I am Active. > Sort of, at least. I hate the flu. Yes, well... I've been lucky with such things most of this winter having not been working from September, but arriving in the US I got one of the nastiest colds I've had in years so I do sympathise with you. Get well soon. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Mon Feb 26 11:55:35 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 19:55:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 16126 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 19:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 19:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 19:55:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 12212 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 19:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.202.141) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 19:55:55 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:52:56 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022611564407.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, you wrote: > Hallo! Hello. I don't believe we've met. I'm Dunx, and I'll be your Speaker. > >Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on > I am. Note that i still don't have a clue about how to play (new > player), but that'll come soon... Well, feel free to ask questions if something isn't clear. If you haven't already, it's well worth looking at Kevan's MN FAQ document (linked to from the web page). It's perhaps a little dated, but still helpful. > -- > Gunnar One question - what name do you want to play under? Is "Gunnar" OK? -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Mon Feb 26 12:16:06 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 20:16:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 67316 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 20:16:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 20:16:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 20:16:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 23199 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 20:16:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.202.141) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 20:16:25 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:57:12 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010225103026.01f36780@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20010225103026.01f36780@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022612171408.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, you wrote: > Ackanomic is the longest-running (I believe it is still running) game of > Nomic played on the Internet. It has many interesting features, not the > least of which being Rules are given a Mutability factor, and repealed > Rules stay in the Ruleset rather than being discarded (presumably so that > you don't get an old idea reproposed by the unknowing). It's huge. Sounds like I should keep away. The main reason I never really got into Thring was its hugeness. Incidentally, I was right about Peter Suber's original rules including Immutability: as published in Hofstatder's "Metamagical Themas", Rules 100-199 are immutable, while Rules 200+ are Mutable. > I agree that there were a lot of Multiple Proposals because you had to > update the Action table and/or other tables when proposing a new Action or > whatever. But I believe that in this new game there will be considerable > instances where people want to enact entire sets of rules, or amend several > rules. This is exactly my point - if every type of Proposal can be a multiple of itself, why not pull out the concept of multipleness into a common Proposal Type? > I'm also a great believer in the idea of fitting new concepts into old > structure. Particularly, fitting new items into existing tables, like new > Actions into the Action Cost Table (1.5.0 or whatever it was). What I'd > like to see is ways to do this automatically, or at least without having to > physically raise an amendment. Well, there were mechanisms to do that in the Old Ruleset - the Action Proposal Type, for instance - but they tended to be pretty rarely used. There may be scope for that kind of thing again, but not just at the moment. If we do have such compound proposal types, I would like to see the same kind of Proposal Type superclassing I've tried to introduce with Ruleset Proposals. Finally, on the subject of automatic updates, are we talking tool-based updates here? I'm happy enough with such things of course, as long as: 1 - the sources are available 2 - the underlying technologies are free (as in beer, mainly, but as in speech too for preference) and reasonably stable. Perl and Java work here; almost any MS language or platform don't (because they tend to be expensive, closed, and constantly in a state of flux). 3 - the text ruleset is still treated as the master for recovery purposes My reasoning for all of these points is to ensure that we don't see MN die in the same way as Thring did. A further reason is to ensure that we don't build platform dependencies into how the the ruleset is managed. > I've been wondering about a more formalised 'protoProposal' stage, where a > Proposal is published but not yet available to be voted on. Only when the > Proposer feels confident of a response does the Proposal actually have to > go to Voting. But I think if we informally agree to nut things out on the > list then this will serve as well. Well, as I say, I resisted trying to formalise that process because it was so slippery. If you can come up with a sensible and flexible form of words, then by all means submit it. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From snowl@s... Mon Feb 26 14:55:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 70447 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:39 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.114] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14XWYL-000ACg-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:55:38 +0000 Message-ID: <010401c0a047$1e59d5e0$724b08c3@snow> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010219124831.00a15a90@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Re: making nomic easier Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:50:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > This reminds me also of my other idea, which is to start the new attempt at > the ruleset off being formatted in HTML. If we start with consistent > formatting, then things just fall into place. Tables become easier to > read, sections and subsections become easier to identify, bulletted and > numbered lists become simple, etcetera. The RealMC ruleset used HTML. > I also foresee the possibility of using XML (thought I don't even know how > to write it), and having a Ruleset Formatter like miKi has proposed above: > specify which combination of rulesets you're playing under and the engine > spits out the list of all rules that apply. The RealMC ruleset was written in XML and transformed to HTML using XSLT. The ruleset formatter should be easy to write, but writing the ruleset in such a way that it always produces something sensible might be quite hard. It depends how much forethought is put into it I suppose. -- Snow (Mmm, chocolate) From snowl@s... Mon Feb 26 14:55:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 70324 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 23:56:41 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.114] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14XWYJ-000ACg-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:55:35 +0000 Message-ID: <010201c0a047$1ce0f180$724b08c3@snow> To: References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> Subject: Re: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:36:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx said: > Players: > > Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on > the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this information if > we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. I am Snow. -- Snow (I shall be defining myself later) From snowl@s... Mon Feb 26 14:55:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 68745 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:38 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.114] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14XWYK-000ACg-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:55:36 +0000 Message-ID: <010301c0a047$1d7fa280$724b08c3@snow> To: References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> Subject: Re: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:49:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx said: > Friends: > > Attached is an initial suggestion for the process part of a > reconstituted Morning Nomic. This is much more complicated than I had imagined. I would suggest something far less complicated: ------------start---------------- The process for making a change to the ruleset: 1) The Speaker will decide a topic for discussion, based on suggestions from players. 2) The players will discuss the topic until unimity, or until the Speaker judges further discussion to be unproductive. 3) One or more players will send an email to the list with the subject line starting [Proposal]. This will contain a description of the way they intend to change the ruleset and it's repercussions on the other parts of the ruleset. 4) Players will vote to the list on the proposal in emails with a subject line starting [Vote]. 5) After at least 7 days have passed the votes will be counted. If a proposal has a majority of the votes cast, then it will be enacted. 6) The Speaker or someone delagated by the Speaker will then update the ruleset according to the proposal. 7) The Speaker decides which Players are allowed to vote based on activity. 8) The Players decide who is Speaker by some fair means. ----------------End-------- A lot simpler... Notes: a) Assumes only one proposal will get majority. b) Proposals do not contains the specific words that go into the ruleset only the ideas that are to be enacted. This avoids overly complex proposals that talk about change this paragraph and that sentence, rather than concentrating on what the proposal is on about. c) Once the ruleset is complete and stable it can be 'staticised' via a proposal (eg increase the majority needed to change the base ruleset to 75%). d) If a more complicated structure is needed later, it can be created later. -- Snow (Mmmm, buscuits) From snowl@s... Mon Feb 26 14:55:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 70308 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 22:55:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 22:55:35 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.114] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14XWYI-000ACg-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:55:34 +0000 Message-ID: <010101c0a047$1c2ff100$724b08c3@snow> To: References: <20010210133253.95264.qmail@w...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010214091042.009e2850@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010219125852.00a180f0@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Re: making nomic easier Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:35:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > At 10:10 AM 15/02/2001, you wrote: > >I don't like this at all. We'll just end up with people trying to > >implement moving with actions, becuase they're in charge of actions > >and the person in charge of moves is not being co-operative. Everyone > >should have equal say on all subjects. Furthermore where possible > >everyone should be encoaraged to have a say on all subjects, the more > >people put their input in the more likely we are to get the best > >solution. > > Well, I was advocating co-operation and interaction, but I can see your > worst-case scenario. Personally, I think if we need movement in actions > (and, given that Wild moves are one of the fundamental components of MC > play as I see it, I think we do) then the coordinators of those two topics > get together in email and nut out a complete structure. Then they put it > up for everyone to review. Only when you have a 75% majority (the figure > being bandied about currently) does that set of rules get added. > > I guess I see coordinators as the people who guide the process of setting > up the rules. I think the ruleset we're trying to create is too complex > for one person to hold all the 'concept' (ie. the modus operandi and grand > scheme) of each facet of play in eir head for too long before it all gets > to be a gooey paste. OK, your suggestion was sensible for the ruleset you envisage. My critisism was sensible for the ruleset I envisage. But we've had this discussion many times. I can't see any point having it again. -- Snow (Mmmm, popcorn) From palnatoke@g... Mon Feb 26 15:52:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Feb 2001 23:52:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 6049 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2001 23:52:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2001 23:52:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cicero0.cybercity.dk) (212.242.40.52) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Feb 2001 23:52:22 -0000 Received: from usr01.cybercity.dk (usr01.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.35]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9BA10297A for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:52:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from richardmayhew (port10.ds1-boet.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.142.75]) by usr01.cybercity.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA08893 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:51:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from palnatoke@g...) Message-ID: <011801c0a04f$19008960$0200000a@richardmayhew> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010225103026.01f36780@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:50:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" Paul wrote: :=20 : Ackanomic is the longest-running (I believe it is still running) game of= =20 Nope. Neither longest-running nor still running. Sorry. >From http://www.nomic.net/~nomicwiki/index.php?AckaNomic : " Ackanomic started January 22, 1996.=20 In late 1999 it underwent a Schism into ThinAcka? and FatAcka?. The split i= nvolved a proposal to erase the ruleset and start over with a fairly typica= l initial ruleset. It was quite controversial and passed by a small margin,= but its opponents then discovered that, due to an oversight, it had been d= istributed with the first line missing. Some players claimed that the propo= sal worked anyway, while others argued that it had no effect, and these two= threads became ThinAcka? and FatAcka? respectively.=20 FatAcka? apparently died shortly after the schism.=20 ThinAcka? survived somewhat longer, but seems to have been inactive since M= ay 2000.=20 " >From http://www.nomic.net/~nomicwiki/index.php?Agora : " Agora Nomic is the longest continuously running Nomic known. Agora started = in 1993 and has been running ever since. At any given time, Agora has aroun= d 20 players. " Ole -- Ole Andersen Br=F8ndby=F8ster, Denmark palnatoke@g... http://palnatoke.blogspot.com "Never apologize, never explain." - Hunter S. Thompson From dunx@d... Mon Feb 26 20:51:38 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 04:51:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 16370 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 04:51:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 04:51:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 05:52:39 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust208.tnt6.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.252.208]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01939 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:51:32 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:12:43 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <010301c0a047$1d7fa280$724b08c3@snow> In-Reply-To: <010301c0a047$1d7fa280$724b08c3@snow> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0102262052430A.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, you wrote: > Dunx said: > > Friends: > > > > Attached is an initial suggestion for the process part of a > > reconstituted Morning Nomic. > > This is much more complicated than I had imagined. I would suggest > something far less complicated: By "this", do you mean the process itself, or the expression of that process? I ask because the process you suggest is practically the same as the one I put forward, except described less rigorously. Whilst I applaud the brevity of your suggestion, I suspect that more thoroughness is needed in this section of the rules at least. I'm also very concerned that you are loading too much onto notes which, because they are footnotes rather than in the body of the ruleset, are likely to be ignored. But to address my individual misgivings... > 1) The Speaker will decide a topic for discussion, based on > suggestions from players. This point actually embodies most of my issues - too much of a role for the Speaker in leading the discussion, when that should really be the province of the Players. One of the difficulties with the Old Ruleset which I have sought to eliminate is placing too much workload on the Speaker. Making the Speaker the discussion leader as well as guarantor of fair play forces too much back on eir shoulders. In truth, I would hope that the Speaker _would_ take a lead in focussing discussion as time permits, but placing this duty as the first rule makes it a requirement, which I dislike. > 2) The players will discuss the topic until unimity, or until the > Speaker judges further discussion to be unproductive. > 3) One or more players will send an email to the list with the subject > line starting [Proposal]. This will contain a description of the way > they intend to change the ruleset and it's repercussions on the other > parts of the ruleset. > 4) Players will vote to the list on the proposal in emails with a > subject line starting [Vote]. > 5) After at least 7 days have passed the votes will be counted. If a > proposal has a majority of the votes cast, then it will be enacted. > 6) The Speaker or someone delagated by the Speaker will then update > the ruleset according to the proposal. > 7) The Speaker decides which Players are allowed to vote based on > activity. All fair enough, barring other concerns I've already raised. > 8) The Players decide who is Speaker by some fair means. I do rather like the idea of electing a Speaker, although "some fair means" seems a bit woolly. > A lot simpler... No. Fewer words, and fewer precise definitions, but not simpler. Harder for the Speaker and less clear for the Players. > a) Assumes only one proposal will get majority. Hmm. Optimistic. > b) Proposals do not contains the specific words that go into the > ruleset only the ideas that are to be enacted. This avoids overly > complex proposals that talk about change this paragraph and that > sentence, rather than concentrating on what the proposal is on about. This really frightens me. I've seen enough examples in this very game where two people interpret the same words to mean entirely different things, and what you're suggesting is that Players don't even know what they're voting on?! > c) Once the ruleset is complete and stable it can be 'staticised' via > a proposal (eg increase the majority needed to change the base ruleset > to 75%). Well, yes - fair enough. Doesn't say what the 75% is of, but still. > d) If a more complicated structure is needed later, it can be created > later. If by 'complicated' you mean 'accurately defined', then I think we need it now as much as ever. To explain where I'm coming from here: I've put forward the revised Section 0 using the same format as the Old Ruleset because we know it works. I am not wishing to imply that the turns of phrase could not be tightened up a little in spots, but defining terms accurately is important. I'm all for simplifying the Mornington Crescent rules as much as possible, as long as they're still interesting, but if there's one place where rigorousness is needed then it's in the Nomic mechanics. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From mn_miKi@h... Mon Feb 26 21:28:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 05:28:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 54543 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 05:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 05:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.205) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 05:26:15 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:26:10 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.18] To: References: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> Subject: Re: Who Is Active? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:26:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A03A.CD0B6FC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2001 05:26:10.0188 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAE734C0:01C0A07D] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A03A.CD0B6FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm Active. Mind the gap, - miKi ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dunx=20 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 11:30 PM Subject: MN: Who Is Active? Players: Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this information if we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. Thanks. --=20 Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A03A.CD0B6FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm Active.

Mind the gap,
 - miKi
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Dunx
To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 11= :30=20 PM
Subject: MN: Who Is Active?

Players:

Could those who are currently Active p= lease=20 declare themselves either on
the list or via email to speaker@d.... We need this infor= mation=20 if
we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section=20 0.

Thanks.

--
Dunx
Life. Don't talk to me about=20 life.


Your=20 use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A03A.CD0B6FC0-- From mn_miKi@h... Mon Feb 26 21:31:30 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 05:31:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 92169 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 05:31:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 05:31:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.116) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 06:32:34 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:31:27 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.18] To: References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> Subject: Re: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:32:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0A03B.8DEFEE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2001 05:31:27.0794 (UTC) FILETIME=[88360920:01C0A07E] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0A03B.8DEFEE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable O great wearer of the Speakership Trousers, or Dunx as he is more widely kn= own, I am in favour of the re-write of Section 0 which you suggested. I have a c= ouple of minor quibbles, mostly about the plethora of Mandates, but they do= form a complete set as they are currently presented. Will we ever get Tota= l Unanimity, I ask myself? All in all, it seems fine to me. Mind the gap, - miKi ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0A03B.8DEFEE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
O great wearer of the Speakership Trousers= , or Dunx=20 as he is more widely known,
 
I am in favour of the re-write of Section = 0 which=20 you suggested. I have a couple of minor quibbles, mostly about the plethora= of=20 Mandates, but they do form a complete set as they are currently presented. = Will=20 we ever get Total Unanimity, I ask myself? All in all, it seems fine to=20 me.

Mind the gap,
 - miKi ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C0A03B.8DEFEE00-- From mn_miKi@h... Mon Feb 26 21:46:39 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 05:46:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1832 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 05:46:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 05:46:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.20) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 05:46:39 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:46:38 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.18] To: Subject: Email problems... Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:47:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C0A03D.ACEF7F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2001 05:46:38.0954 (UTC) FILETIME=[A74E04A0:01C0A080] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C0A03D.ACEF7F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who has access to the egroups/Yahoo groups listserver? My work email addres= s has (thanks to our completely incompetent IT dept.) changed under me and = now that I have email at home I would like to remove my work account from t= he list - I get enough messages at work as it is. Problem is that Yahoo gro= ups refuses to process my request as my email address has changed. So, plea= se remove Richard_M_Brockie@n... from the list, and I'll be ha= ppy. Mind the gap, - miKi ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C0A03D.ACEF7F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who has access to the egroups/Yahoo groups= =20 listserver? My work email address has (thanks to our completely incompetent= IT=20 dept.) changed under me and now that I have email at home I would like to r= emove=20 my work account from the list - I get enough messages at work as it is. Pro= blem=20 is that Yahoo groups refuses to process my request as my email address has= =20 changed. So, please remove Richard_M_Brockie@n...= om=20 from the list, and I'll be happy.

Mind the gap,
 -=20 miKi
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C0A03D.ACEF7F80-- From mn_miKi@h... Mon Feb 26 21:54:21 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 05:54:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 92098 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 05:54:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 05:54:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.21) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 05:54:21 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:54:20 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.18] To: References: <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <010301c0a047$1d7fa280$724b08c3@snow> <0102262052430A.01433@dagon> Subject: Re: MN: Re: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:54:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0A03E.BF03FCE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2001 05:54:20.0740 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA8CF840:01C0A081] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0A03E.BF03FCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whilst I like brevity in most things, I find myself agreeing with Dunx - I = remember one memorable occasion when Kevan and myself were of completely di= ffering opinions regarding the implied workings of a rule. We were both ada= mant that the rule clearly indicated our own interpretation. I seem recall = that Kevan's view prevailed through an EP, but I was able to get round the = rule by spotting and exploiting a different poorly re-written rule and mana= ged to get a "Who's a Clever Bear?" award that week. We need clarity in our rules. Mind the gap, - miKi ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dunx=20 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:12 PM Subject: Re: MN: Re: Mechanical Suggestions On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, you wrote: > Dunx said: > > Friends: > > > > Attached is an initial suggestion for the process part of a > > reconstituted Morning Nomic. >=20 > This is much more complicated than I had imagined. I would suggest > something far less complicated: By "this", do you mean the process itself, or the expression of that process? I ask because the process you suggest is practically the same as the one I put forward, except described less rigorously. Whilst I applaud the brevity of your suggestion, I suspect that more thoroughness is needed in this section of the rules at least. I'm also very concerned that you are loading too much onto notes which, because they are footnotes rather than in the body of the ruleset, are likely to be ignored. But to address my individual misgivings... > 1) The Speaker will decide a topic for discussion, based on > suggestions from players. This point actually embodies most of my issues - too much of a role for the Speaker in leading the discussion, when that should really be the province of the Players. One of the difficulties with the Old Ruleset which I have sought to eliminate is placing too much workload on the Speaker. Making the Speaker the discussion leader as well as guarantor of fair play forces too much back on eir shoulders. In truth, I would hope that the Speaker _would_ take a lead in focussing discussion as time permits, but placing this duty as the first rule makes it a requirement, which I dislike. > 2) The players will discuss the topic until unimity, or until the > Speaker judges further discussion to be unproductive. > 3) One or more players will send an email to the list with the subject > line starting [Proposal]. This will contain a description of the way > they intend to change the ruleset and it's repercussions on the other > parts of the ruleset. > 4) Players will vote to the list on the proposal in emails with a > subject line starting [Vote]. > 5) After at least 7 days have passed the votes will be counted. If a > proposal has a majority of the votes cast, then it will be enacted. > 6) The Speaker or someone delagated by the Speaker will then update > the ruleset according to the proposal. > 7) The Speaker decides which Players are allowed to vote based on > activity. All fair enough, barring other concerns I've already raised. > 8) The Players decide who is Speaker by some fair means. I do rather like the idea of electing a Speaker, although "some fair means" seems a bit woolly. > A lot simpler... No. Fewer words, and fewer precise definitions, but not simpler. Harder for the Speaker and less clear for the Players. > a) Assumes only one proposal will get majority. Hmm. Optimistic. > b) Proposals do not contains the specific words that go into the > ruleset only the ideas that are to be enacted. This avoids overly > complex proposals that talk about change this paragraph and that > sentence, rather than concentrating on what the proposal is on about. This really frightens me. I've seen enough examples in this very game where two people interpret the same words to mean entirely different things, and what you're suggesting is that Players don't even know what they're voting on?! > c) Once the ruleset is complete and stable it can be 'staticised' via > a proposal (eg increase the majority needed to change the base ruleset > to 75%). Well, yes - fair enough. Doesn't say what the 75% is of, but still. > d) If a more complicated structure is needed later, it can be created > later. If by 'complicated' you mean 'accurately defined', then I think we need it now as much as ever. To explain where I'm coming from here: I've put forward the revised Section 0 using the same format as the Old Ruleset because we know it works. I am not wishing to imply that the turns of phrase could not be tightened up a little in spots, but defining terms accurately is important. I'm all for simplifying the Mornington Crescent rules as much as possible, as long as they're still interesting, but if there's one place where rigorousness is needed then it's in the Nomic mechanics. --=20 Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0A03E.BF03FCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whilst I like brevity in most things, I fi= nd myself=20 agreeing with Dunx - I remember one memorable occasion when Kevan and mysel= f=20 were of completely differing opinions regarding the implied workings of a r= ule.=20 We were both adamant that the rule clearly indicated our own=20 interpretation. I seem recall that Kevan's view prevailed through an EP, bu= t I=20 was able to get round the rule by spotting and exploiting a=20 different poorly re-written rule and managed to get a "Who's a Clever= =20 Bear?" award that week.
=  
We need clarity in our rules.
Mind the gap,
 - miKi
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Dunx
To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:= 12=20 PM
Subject: Re: MN: Re: Mechanical=20 Suggestions

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> Dunx said:
= >=20 > Friends:
> >
> > Attached is an initial suggestion= for=20 the process part of a
> > reconstituted Morning Nomic.
>=20
> This is much more complicated than I had imagined. I would=20 suggest
> something far less complicated:

By "this", do you = mean=20 the process itself, or the expression of that
process?

I ask be= cause=20 the process you suggest is practically the same as the one
I put forwa= rd,=20 except described less rigorously.

Whilst I applaud the brevity of = your=20 suggestion, I suspect that more
thoroughness is needed in this section= of=20 the rules at least. I'm also
very concerned that you are loading too m= uch=20 onto notes which, because
they are footnotes rather than in the body o= f the=20 ruleset, are likely to
be ignored.

But to address my individual= =20 misgivings...

> 1) The Speaker will decide a topic for discussi= on,=20 based on
> suggestions from players.

This point actually emb= odies=20 most of my issues - too much of a role for
the Speaker in leading the= =20 discussion, when that should really be the
province of the=20 Players.

One of the difficulties with the Old Ruleset which I have= =20 sought to
eliminate is placing too much workload on the Speaker. Makin= g=20 the
Speaker the discussion leader as well as guarantor of fair play=20 forces
too much back on eir shoulders.

In truth, I would hope t= hat=20 the Speaker _would_ take a lead in focussing
discussion as time permit= s,=20 but placing this duty as the first rule
makes it a requirement, which = I=20 dislike.

> 2) The players will discuss the topic until unimity,= or=20 until the
> Speaker judges further discussion to be=20 unproductive.
> 3) One or more players will send an email to the li= st=20 with the subject
> line starting [Proposal]. This will contain a=20 description of the way
> they intend to change the ruleset and it's= =20 repercussions on the other
> parts of the ruleset.
> 4) Playe= rs=20 will vote to the list on the proposal in emails with a
> subject li= ne=20 starting [Vote].
> 5) After at least 7 days have passed the votes w= ill=20 be counted. If a
> proposal has a majority of the votes cast, then = it=20 will be enacted.
> 6) The Speaker or someone delagated by the Speak= er=20 will then update
> the ruleset according to the proposal.
> 7= ) The=20 Speaker decides which Players are allowed to vote based on
>=20 activity.

All fair enough, barring other concerns I've already=20 raised.

> 8) The Players decide who is Speaker by some fair=20 means.

I do rather like the idea of electing a Speaker, although "= some=20 fair
means" seems a bit woolly.

> A lot simpler...

No= .=20 Fewer words, and fewer precise definitions, but not simpler. Harder
fo= r the=20 Speaker and less clear for the Players.

> a) Assumes only one=20 proposal will get majority.

Hmm. Optimistic.

> b) Propos= als=20 do not contains the specific words that go into the
> ruleset only = the=20 ideas that are to be enacted. This avoids overly
> complex proposal= s=20 that talk about change this paragraph and that
> sentence, rather t= han=20 concentrating on what the proposal is on about.

This really fright= ens=20 me. I've seen enough examples in this very game
where two people inter= pret=20 the same words to mean entirely different
things, and what you're=20 suggesting is that Players don't even know what
they're voting=20 on?!

> c) Once the ruleset is complete and stable it can be=20 'staticised' via
> a proposal (eg increase the majority needed to c= hange=20 the base ruleset
> to 75%).

Well, yes - fair enough. Doesn't= say=20 what the 75% is of, but still.

> d) If a more complicated struc= ture=20 is needed later, it can be created
> later.

If by 'complicat= ed'=20 you mean 'accurately defined', then I think we need
it now as much as= =20 ever.

To explain where I'm coming from here: I've put forward the= =20 revised
Section 0 using the same format as the Old Ruleset because we = know=20 it
works. I am not wishing to imply that the turns of phrase could not= =20 be
tightened up a little in spots, but defining terms accurately=20 is
important.

I'm all for simplifying the Mornington Crescent r= ules=20 as much as
possible, as long as they're still interesting, but if ther= e's=20 one place
where rigorousness is needed then it's in the Nomic=20 mechanics.

--
Dunx
Life. Don't talk to me about=20 life.


Your=20 use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0A03E.BF03FCE0-- From dunx@d... Mon Feb 26 23:13:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 07:13:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 37306 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 07:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 07:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 08:14:21 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust150.tnt10.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.11.35.150]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA17846 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:13:14 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Email problems... Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:12:44 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0102262314250D.01433@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, you wrote: > > Who has access to the egroups/Yahoo groups listserver? My work email address has (thanks to our completely incompetent IT dept.) changed under me and now that I have email at home I would like to remove my work account from the list - I get enough messages at work as it is. Problem is that Yahoo groups refuses to process my request as my email address has changed. So, please remove Richard_M_Brockie@n... from the list, and I'll be happy. Done. You've been removed from l-nomic-d and l-0nomic-l, which the only lounges you were subscribed to using that mail address. Just a note to other Players - I noticed some pretty elderly mail addresses in the subscription lists for some of the lounges. Have a look, and if you have problems then let me know at speaker@d.... Cheers. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From kevan@s... Tue Feb 27 05:50:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Feb 2001 13:50:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 57327 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2001 13:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 27 Feb 2001 13:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mq.egroups.com) (10.1.1.36) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Feb 2001 13:50:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.211] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2001 13:50:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:50:13 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Who Is Active? Message-ID: <97gbal+oms0@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 541 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.42.164.32 From: "Kevan Davis" > Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves either on > the list or via email to speaker@d... We need this information if > we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. Mm, yes, I'm around, just a bit quiet. I'll leap in when I've managed to gather appropriate numbers of my thoughts for long enough to write them down. But consider me Active. Hello. Kevan -- http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Put on your dunce's caps. Those caught not wearing their dunce's caps may be forced to stand at the front and teach." From se98gj@d... Wed Feb 28 04:49:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: se98gj@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Feb 2001 12:49:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 74468 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2001 12:49:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Feb 2001 12:49:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cj.egroups.com) (10.1.2.82) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Feb 2001 12:49:49 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: se98gj@d... Received: from [10.1.2.36] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2001 12:49:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:49:44 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Who Is Active? Message-ID: <97is58+fm8e@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <01022523321401.01433@dagon> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 286 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 137.138.30.32 From: se98gj@d... --- In l-nomic-d@y..., Dunx wrote: > Players: > > Could those who are currently Active please declare themselves > either on the list or via email to speaker@d... We need this > information if we're going to have a meaningful vote on Section 0. Allo. I'm here. -Graeme / Grimace. From se98gj@d... Wed Feb 28 05:26:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: se98gj@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Feb 2001 13:26:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 48564 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2001 13:26:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Feb 2001 13:26:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.47) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Feb 2001 13:26:12 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: se98gj@d... Received: from [10.1.2.104] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2001 13:26:12 -0000 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:26:11 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Message-ID: <97iu9j+ej3s@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3422 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 137.138.30.32 From: se98gj@d... --- In l-nomic-d@y..., Paul Wayper wrote: > # I'd like to suggest a change here: rework 0.4.1 here to read: > [...] > Proposals may be of the following types:- > > * Enactment - To create one or more new Rules to be added to the > Ruleset. Enactments may specify the Volume and/or > Section of the new Rule(s), which are created if > they don't already exist. > * Amendment - To change the wording of one or more existing Rules > in the manner detailed in the Proposal. > * Repeal - To remove one or more Rules, as specified by the > Proposal, from the Ruleset. > * Multiple - A combination of Enactments, Amendments and Repeals > in any order. > * Renumbering - To renumber all the Rule Numbers in a particular > Subsection, or to renumber a single Rule. > * Resignation - To force another Player to Resign. > * Mutability - To change the Mutability Modifier of a Rule, Section, > or Volume. I'm tempted to do away with "Proposal type" altogether and just go for something as simple as "A Proposal describes any number of Rule changes or alterations to the Game State." Then we can have Proposals that look like this: Perform the following actions in sequence: Enact a new rule in Section 4.2 entitled "Neep Clamps" with the following text: "A Player possessing a Neep Clamp must pay fourteen black tokens at the end of eir turn." Append the following text to Rule 4.2.3 ("Bock"): "Cross-hatched Players are unaffected by Bock." Repeal Rule 4.2.8 ("Agate Tring".) > I think the best way is for each Player to > have a prefix which they alone use: e.g. my Proposals would be > Proposal PW001, PW002, etc. Doesn't have to be specifically two > initials: Proposal GrandPoohBah140D_20010301a could be OK as well > (if somewhat sesquipedalian). Once again, a simple matter of > leaving it to the players themselves to sort out. I like this a lot, although a short, consistent prefix convention should be encouraged. > Of course, having some sort of order to the numbering would be > encouraged (i.e. sequential proposals from the same proposer being > numbered Thing44 then Ajax921 then THX1138 would be right out). > After all, if we can fit it in some kind of database for automatic > formatting then that'd be good. Mmm. I'm sure everyone'll be quite sensible about this anyway. > # 0.5.2 strikes me as being out of place, because it allows only > one week for discussion on a Proposal to take place. But then I > may be misunderstanding the intent of the Ruleset as it is. Are we > aiming for a Proposal to be patched and amended before being Voted > for, or are we aiming at patches and amendments involving > discarding the old Proposal and Proposing a new one? Tricky one this. It gets a bit messy either way. I'd probably steer clear of any explicit Proposal amendment/redrafting mechanism at all, and simply allow Proposal retraction. Then, I might post Proposal Grim0042, get some comments on things that need changing, and retract it in favour of Grim0042a, which may in turn be superseded by Grim0042b. This seemingly-rigourous redrafting scheme could work without needing to be specified at all. After all, if you're drafting a Proposal, it's easy enough to post it to the list for comments. -Graeme. From dunx@d... Wed Feb 28 23:47:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 1 Mar 2001 07:47:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 18325 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2001 07:47:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2001 07:47:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Mar 2001 07:47:25 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust207.tnt1.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.201.207]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA28497 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:47:23 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Section 0 - Bugs and Apologies Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:58:09 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022823132200.14516@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Players: I'm afraid I'm not going to publish that walk through of the suggested Section 0 that I promised. Having just come from efforts to write something useful and interesting about it, I found that all I was doing was describing the titles of the subsections, the contents being if not self-defining then at least stand alone. This doesn't seem likely to be useful to anybody else, and certainly is of no interest to me to write. So, I'm sorry if anybody was relying on that promised summary for navigating through Section 0 - I can't supply it. Instead, I shall ask whether anyone has any further questions or issues with the suggested Section 0? One useful thing which has come out of my rereading of this Section is a few more slight bugs, or rather (to be more precise) one actual error and a couple of inconsistencies. These are: - 0.2.1: refers to the old sequential approach to Proposal numbering, which should really be removed entirely. Proposal numbering is adequately explained in 0.4.2. - 0.2.2: the real bug; removing Immutability from a Ruleset component should drop it to Static rather than Stable. - 0.2.7: para 4 after the bulleted list - "Special Rulesets have no effect on any games of Mornington Nomic other than those they are incorporated in." Should read "Mornington Crescent"; having made an effort to draw a distinction between MN (the Rules) and MC (the Game governed by those Rules) I'm a little embarrassed this one slipped through. Anyway, I'll fix those and upload the modified Section to the website. I'm going to make this a formal Proposal over the weekend, I think, unless there is more to be said? -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Wed Feb 28 23:47:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 1 Mar 2001 07:47:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 47657 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2001 07:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2001 07:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Mar 2001 08:48:31 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust207.tnt1.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.201.207]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA28546 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:47:25 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:13:31 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <97iu9j+ej3s@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <97iu9j+ej3s@eGroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022823222901.14516@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, you wrote: > I'm tempted to do away with "Proposal type" altogether and just go > for something as simple as "A Proposal describes any number of Rule > changes or alterations to the Game State." > [...] Well, I hope the simplified Proposal Type system will help a bit - I'm a bit leary of chucking out Proposal Type entirely, because there are qualitatively different kinds of things which can Proposed which should really be handled differently; forcing someone to resign seems a different thing to me than changing the Ruleset. As I've said before, I intend to leave Section 0 open to change so feel free to propose a modification. > > I think the best way is for each Player to > > have a prefix which they alone use: e.g. my Proposals would be > > Proposal PW001, PW002, etc. > > I like this a lot, although a short, consistent prefix convention > should be encouraged. See 0.4.2 - is that OK? > > # 0.5.2 strikes me as being out of place, because it allows only > > one week for discussion on a Proposal to take place. But then I > > may be misunderstanding the intent of the Ruleset as it is. Are we > > aiming for a Proposal to be patched and amended before being Voted > > for, or are we aiming at patches and amendments involving > > discarding the old Proposal and Proposing a new one? > > Tricky one this. It gets a bit messy either way. I'd probably steer > clear of any explicit Proposal amendment/redrafting mechanism at all, > and simply allow Proposal retraction. I agree - Proposal change is a hard thing to manage, as previous experiences demonstrate. > Then, I might post Proposal Grim0042, get some comments on things > that need changing, and retract it in favour of Grim0042a, which may > in turn be superseded by Grim0042b. This seemingly-rigourous > redrafting scheme could work without needing to be specified at all. You read my mind (or read my comments, I'm not sure which ;-) -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From dunx@d... Wed Feb 28 23:47:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 1 Mar 2001 07:47:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 47724 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2001 07:47:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2001 07:47:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Mar 2001 07:47:28 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust207.tnt1.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.201.207]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA28588 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:47:27 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Voting on Proposed Section 0 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:22:34 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01022823314402.14516@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Players: Don't worry, I'm not opening the Voting just yet! This is just a brief message to say how I intend to handle the Voting on the Section 0 suggestion that has been kicking around now for a couple of weeks. First of all, the following Players have so far declared themselves Active (in no particular order): Ole Gunnar PaulWay Dunx Snow miKi Grimace Kevan Since I'm going to leave Section 0 in a Unstable state initially, I'm looking for an Active Majority Mandate, that is more Active Players Voting FOR the Proposal than not. Obviously, I won't be Voting. I'll repeat this stuff when the Proposal is formally, er, Proposed. -- Dunx Life. Don't talk to me about life. From se98gj@d... Thu Mar 01 02:48:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: se98gj@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 1 Mar 2001 10:48:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 10840 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2001 10:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2001 10:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fh.egroups.com) (10.1.2.135) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Mar 2001 10:48:57 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: se98gj@d... Received: from [10.1.2.30] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2001 10:48:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:48:52 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions Message-ID: <97l9ek+8rl5@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <01022823222901.14516@dagon> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 173 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 137.138.30.32 From: se98gj@d... Coh. I've been looking at out-of-date versions of the Mechanics proposal. The one on the website's much better, and addresses everything I said. My apologies. -Graeme. From dunx@d... Sun Mar 04 22:30:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 5 Mar 2001 06:30:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 76041 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 06:30:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Mar 2001 06:30:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 07:31:18 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust246.tnt3.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.224.246]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA24482 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:30:07 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Proposal Dunx0001 - New Section 0 [Ruleset] Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:14:26 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01030422201800.26454@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx { Comment: Here's the formal Proposal of the new Section 0. As I say, I'm looking for an Active Majority Mandate, and will close the Voting one week hence (which rounding up is about 0700 GMT 12-Mar-2001). Post your Votes on the discussion list, please. This Proposal is also on the web site. } Enact the text between <> as Section 0 of the New Ruleset. <' where is the relevant Volume and Section reference. No Special Ruleset may alter the rules of Mornington Nomic, directly or otherwise. Special Rulesets have no effect on any games of Mornington Crescent other than those they are incorporated in. They may, however, be amended via proposal in the same way as any other Mornington Nomic rules. Special Rules always take precedence over the Basic Mornington Crescent rules for any relevant Special Rules games, unless explicitly stated otherwise in the Special Ruleset. Special Rules may never take precedence over the Nomic Mechanic rules. Otherwise, all Special Rules are treated in exactly the same way as Basic Rules. Special Rulesets may (but need not be) classified as follows: * Options are Special Rulesets which add new elements to the Game * Variants are Special Rulesets which modify the behaviour of other Mornington Crescent Rules. These are not hard and fast classifications, there being nothing to stop Rules being both added and modified within a Special Ruleset. Special Rulesets may depend for their use on the inclusion of another Special Ruleset in a Game. Such a dependency must be stated clearly in the text of the Special Ruleset. Rule 0.2.8 - In Case Of Ambiguity, Break Glass If a part of the Ruleset is ever regarded as being ambiguous, in a manner which the Speaker feels requires urgent attention, e may ask the Player responsible for that ambiguity to clarify the wording one way or another. The Rule or Rules in question shall be immediately updated to reflect this judgement, the amendment being announced on the mailing list. The Player responsible for an ambiguity is e whose Proposal (or other activity) caused the ambiguity to come into effect. If no Player can be regarded as being clearly and solely responsible for the ambiguity, the Speaker may clarify it emself. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 0.3 - Players \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 0.3.1 - Players and Player States Anyone may apply to join Mornington Nomic by sending a request in an email to the Speaker (see Rule 0.3.2) stating that they wish to join the game, and giving a one-word Name by which they wish to be known. The Speaker will then determine whether the application is successful. Any successful applicant becomes a Player. The Speaker's decision is final in this matter. There are two Player States: Active and Inactive. A Player may change eir Player State at any time by sending a message to the list announcing the change, which will take effect immediately. New Players are Active by default. A Player may at any time post a message to the Discussion Lounge announcing a desire to change the Name e uses in Mornington Nomic. This change shall take effect at the end of the current Game Week or after three days, whichever is later, provided that no other Player objects to the change of Name before then. All Players must always abide by all the Rules. Rule 0.3.2 - The Speaker One Player shall hold the office of Speaker. The Speaker's role is to maintain the ruleset, and perform various other functions as specified by rules. If the Speaker is unable, unwilling, or prevented by a rule, from fulfilling any of eir tasks, e may designate a Deputy to take responsibility for those tasks (either temporarily or permanently). Any other Player who is willing and able is a valid candidate for the role of Deputy Speaker. Throughout the Ruleset, the term 'Speaker' shall be read as meaning the Speaker or Deputy Speaker, as appropriate. Rule 0.3.3 - Filled Roles Players in the game of Mornington Nomic may take on various Roles during play. These Roles and their responsibilities include (but are not necessarily limited to): - Speaker: as defined in Rule 0.3.2 - Player in a Mornington Crescent Game: such a Player makes Move in Games in which e is participating in accordance with the Rules for that Game. When a Player's State changes to Inactive, an asterisk is marked next to eir name in the Game State Document of any Games in which e is currently taking part and eir turn is skipped until e changes eir state back to Active. - Proposer: defined in Rule 0.4.2 - Voter: defined in Rule 0.5.3 Rule 0.3.4 - Can You Hear Snoring? Any Player may Inactivate another Player by announcing this fact in the Discussion Lounge, provided that the Inactivated Player has neither Voted nor played a Mornington Crescent move for more than three weeks. When a Player is Inactivated in this fashion, e becomes Inactive. Rule 0.3.5 - Resignation Any Player may Resign from a Game of Mornington Crescent or from Mornington Nomic as a whole by posting a message to the Discussion Lounge informing the other Players of eir wish. If a Player Resigns from a particular Mornington Crescent Game eir name is removed from those parts of Game State Documents which record the current Game position (eg ownership of Game elements). If a Player Resigns from Mornington Nomic, it is treated as if e has Resigned from all Mornington Crescent Games which e was participating in at the time of Resignation. Any Player may submit a Proposal of Type Resignation, Proposing that a Player be Forced to Resign either from a particular Mornington Crescent Game or from Mornington Nomic. This requires a Mandate of Active Unanimity. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 0.4 - Proposals \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 0.4.1 - Proposals Each Proposal submitted by a Player should have a name (typically summing up the aim of the Proposal in a few words, usually in the form of a very bad pun), a Type, any amount of text stating what the Proposal should do if it is Voted through, and any amount of commented text explaining anything the Proposer feels the need to explain. Proposals may be of the following types:- * Ruleset - To manipulate the content of the ruleset. All such manipulations in a single Proposal should have one general aim or effect. Ruleset Proposals may consist of any number of sub-Proposals of the following types: + Enactment: To create one new Rule or Ruleset component to be added to the Ruleset. + Amendment: To change the wording of one existing Rule in the manner detailed in the Proposal. + Repeal: To remove one Rule, as specified by the Proposal, from the Ruleset. * Renumbering - To renumber all the Rule Numbers in a particular Subsection, or to renumber a single Rule. * Resignation - To force another Player to Resign. * Mutability - To change the Mutability Modifier of a Rule, Section, or Volume by one level of Mutability. Commented text is signified by surrounding it with curly braces, and is entirely ignored if the Proposal passes and alters the Ruleset. Rule 0.4.2 - Proposal Submission Any Active Player may put forward a Proposal for the consideration of other Players. This is done in the role of Proposer. Each Proposal must have a unique number, being the name of the Proposer together with an index number one more than the last Proposal which was published by that Proposer. A resubmission of a previous Proposal whether modified or not is still considered to be a new submission which requires a new Proposal number. Further, for a Ruleset Proposal containing Enactments some indication must be included of where exactly these new Ruleset components would reside. The Proposer submits the Proposal to the Discussion Lounge with a subject line beginning "MN: Proposal ", where is the Proposal number, and including the title of the Proposal. At any time prior to the close of Voting a Proposer may withdraw a Proposal which e has submitted for consideration by notifying this fact to the Discussion Lounge. The Proposal is then considered never to have been submitted and any Votes cast in relation to it are discarded. Note that there is no limit on the number of Proposals which may be open for consideration at any given time, but Proposers are encouraged to use common sense in not swamping the other Players. Similarly, there is no explicit prohibition of submitting and re-submitting modified versions of a particular Proposal idea until it passes, but again the Proposer is urged to use common sense in not continually submitting Proposals which e knows will always fail. Rule 0.4.3 - Proposal Enactment A newly enacted Proposal takes effect at the moment at which Voting Results for that Proposal are published in the Discussion Lounge. No Proposal may have any retroactive effect, explicit or otherwise. The wording of a Proposal has no effect until it has enacted. When a new Ruleset component is created, it takes the name of the Enactment Proposal (or Proposal section) that Enacted it. In order to simplify the incorporation of new text into the Ruleset, Proposals containing content which is to inserted verbatim should be formatted in a similar way to the Ruleset. The implementation of the Proposal is performed by the Proposer, the modified Ruleset Volumes being sent to the Speaker. Permission to perform the Proposal implementation edits must be sought from the Speaker. Only one Proposer may edit the Ruleset at any given time, in order to prevent conflicting changes being applied simultaneously. If such permission is not obtained, the Speaker has the right to ignore the edits. If the Speaker feels that a Proposer is taking an unreasonable amount of time to implement a Proposal, especially if the implementation of other Proposals is being blocked by such apparent inaction, permission to edit the Ruleset may be withdrawn. Notice of such withdrawal must be posted to the Discussion list. Rule 0.4.4 - We Are Not Men, We Are Veto The Speaker may Veto the consideration of any Proposal which is before the Players if e feels that there is undue duplication or conflict with other outstanding Proposals, or if the Proposal number is not unique, or for any other reason. A Proposal being Vetoed means that it is not voted on and cannot become a part of the Rules. The Speaker must publish the reasons for eir decision to the list. A Point of Order may be raised (in the usual way) if a Player feels that the Speaker's reason was not valid. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 0.5 - Votes \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 0.5.1 - Mandates and Their Application In order for a Proposal to be Enacted it must achieve the necessary Mandate, a Mandate being the required proportion of FOR Votes within a particular set of possible Voters. The following are Mandates which are specifically recognised, but others are possible and may be specified as necessary (the most likely qualification being that a specific percentage of a voting population must be in favour): 1/ Total Unanimity - all Players Voted in favour 2/ Active Unanimity - all Active Players Voted in favour 3/ Simple Unanimity - all Players who Voted were in favour 4/ Total Majority - a majority of all Players Voted in favour 5/ Active Majority - a majority of Active Players Voted in favour 6/ Simple Majority - a majority of those who Voted were in favour Rule 0.5.2 - When to Vote All Votes for a Proposal must be submitted in the calendar week following the publication of that Proposal. Rule 0.5.3 - Voting and Proposal Adoption All Players who are Active at some point during the voting period for a Proposal are considered to be the Voters for that Proposal. Players not Active at all during that period may not vote in regard to that Proposal. The Proposer may not Vote. A Voter may cast eir Vote on a Proposal by sending an email to the Discussion Lounge with the subject line "MN: Vote on " where is the Proposal number being voted on. If the email does not have this subject line, votes may be considered invalid. Votes for multiple Proposals may be cast in a single message by including the Proposal numbers of all the Proposals being voted on in the email subject line. Valid votes are FOR, AGAINST or PASS. Any other vote is invalid. Each Voter has exactly one vote per Proposal. If a Player attempts to vote for a single Proposal more than once, only the latest valid vote shall be counted. In order for a Proposal to be adopted, it must achieve its required Mandate. Rule 0.5.4 - Abstention and Default Mandates If a Voter could have voted on a particular Proposal and chooses not to, e is considered to have abstained and a Vote of PASS is recorded. Unless otherwise specified, a Proposal must achieve a Mandate of an Active Majority, that is that more Voters voted in favour of the Proposal than the total of those who Voted against or passed. Rule 0.5.5 - Direct Tinkering Ban If the passing of a Proposal would directly cause any aspect of the Nomic other than the Ruleset to be altered, the Proposal must achieve Simple Unanimity to pass. This takes precedence over all other Rules regarding the passing of Proposals. Rule 0.5.7 - Voting Comments In addition to Voting on a particular Proposal, a Player may also add a Comment. This is a piece of text enclosed in curly brackets ('{' and '}') appended after the Vote, such that it is clear which Proposal the Comment is referring to. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 0.6 - The Nomic Week \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 0.6.1 - Theocracy of Muntab The Game of Mornington Nomic shall be counted in Nomic Weeks and Nomic Years. The Nomic Week number is incremented each Nomic Week, and the Nomic Year number incremented once on the 16th of April every year. The Nomic Week and Nomic Year have no bearing on Game numbers. Rule 0.6.2 - The Week-End The Nomic Week ends at 11:59am on Tuesday, unless altered by the Speaker. Only the end of the current Nomic Week may be extended (it cannot be shortened) and each Nomic Week must be a minimum of 4 days. After any extension, the end of the following Nomic Week defaults to the next Tuesday at 11:59am which is over 4 days from the end of the extended Nomic Week. All Players must be informed of the extension of a Nomic Week, by the Speaker. The next Nomic Week begins immediately after the previous Nomic Week ends. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 0.7 - Points of Order \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 0.7.1 - Points of Order If a Player is concerned about aspects of the Game State, wordings or spellings within the Ruleset, or any point e considers to be minor, e may email the Speaker to this effect. Corrective action shall be taken by the Speaker if e feels it to be appropriate, and announced on the Discussion Lounge. The email containing the Point of Order should have a subject line of 'MN: Point of Order'. If it does not have this subject line, the Point of Order may be considered invalid. If any Player is unhappy with the result of a Point of Order, e may make an Emergency Proposal to correct it. Rule 0.7.2 - Emergency Proposals If a Player is concerned about serious aspects of the Ruleset, e may make an Emergency Proposal. This is effectively identical to a normal Proposal, and should be emailed to the Speaker along with indication that it is an Emergency Proposal. This email should have a subject line of 'MN: Emergency Proposal' - if it does not, it may be considered invalid. The Speaker forwards the Eprop to the Discussion Lounge. Any Player other than e who made the Eprop may submit a Vote on that Proposal, emailing it to the Speaker. After twenty-four hours have elapsed (excluding weekends), the Votes are tallied for the Emergency Proposal. The Eprop is treated as a normal Proposal for the purposes of determining enactment, with the exception that Quorum is ignored. If the Proposal passes, it takes effect immediately. When announcing the results of voting on the Emergency Proposal, the Speaker must distribute a record of how the votes were cast. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ SECTION 0.8 - Gaming Lounges \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ Rule 0.8.1 - The Lounges Mornington Nomic takes place on a number of mailing lists, known as Lounges. There are five Game Lounges and one Discussion Lounge - the Game Lounges are used to play the game of Mornington Crescent, and the Discussion Lounge is a forum for discussing aspects of the Nomic, as well as the announcement of Voting Results, Proposal distribution, and so forth. Each of these Lounges has a mailing list set up for it, with the following addresses being those you should post messages to:- * The Discussion Lounge - l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com * The Brooke-Taylor Lounge - l-nomic-b@yahoogroups.com * The Cryer Lounge - l-nomic-c@yahoogroups.com * The Garden Lounge - l-nomic-g@yahoogroups.com * The Lyttleton Lounge - l-nomic-l@yahoogroups.com * The Rushton Memorial Lounge - l-nomic-r@yahoogroups.com Each non-Discussion Lounge may have a Game being played within it; all postings relevant only to that Game should be made to the appropriate mailing list. To subscribe to any of the Lounges, send a blank email to "l-nomic--subscribe@yahoogroups.com", where "" is the appropriate letter. /------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ All Mornington Crescent Rules (C) Copyright the Mornington Nomic Team 1997-2001 \------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ END>> -- Dunx The only Ultimate Truth is that there isn't one. From paulway@e... Mon Mar 05 06:49:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 5 Mar 2001 14:49:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 1555 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 14:49:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Mar 2001 14:49:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 15:50:24 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010305113558.HBZC26799.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:35:58 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010305221522.024ab110@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:15:56 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Mechanical Suggestions In-Reply-To: <011801c0a04f$19008960$0200000a@richardmayhew> References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> <0102192245090A.05020@dagon> <5.0.0.25.1.20010224050458.00a91eb0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010225103026.01f36780@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 10:50 AM 27/02/2001, you wrote: >Agora Nomic is the longest continuously running Nomic known. Agora started >in 1993 and has been running ever since. At any given time, Agora has >around 20 players. Maybe I was thinking of Agora. I don't know. Anyway, I'm wrong. Ta, Paul From gthoele@G... Mon Mar 05 08:45:32 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gthoele@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 5 Mar 2001 16:45:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 79942 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 16:44:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Mar 2001 16:44:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 17:45:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 6365 invoked by uid 0); 5 Mar 2001 16:44:33 -0000 Received: from brun-3e36cf14.pool.mediaways.net (62.54.207.20) by mail.gmx.net (mail07) with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 16:44:33 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:45:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gunnar Thoele PASS {Sounds fine to me, not overly complicated...} -- Gunnar From dunx@d... Mon Mar 05 09:29:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 5 Mar 2001 17:29:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 92826 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 17:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Mar 2001 17:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 17:28:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 18407 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 17:29:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.200.125) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 17:29:05 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:25:56 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01030509302000.28040@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx On Mon, 05 Mar 2001, you wrote: > PASS > > {Sounds fine to me, not overly complicated...} OK, I'm a bit confused here - do you mean you're voting for the Proposal to pass? Or are you abstaining? I should have been clearer on this since we're restarting, but could Players please Vote one of: FOR (should you wish the Proposal to succeed) AGAINST (should you wish to see the Proposal fail) PASS (if you want to abstain) A vote of PASS will be entered in any case if you don't Vote explicitly. Apologies for the confusion. -- Dunx The only Ultimate Truth is that there isn't one. From mn_miKi@h... Mon Mar 05 15:24:42 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 5 Mar 2001 23:24:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 18054 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 23:23:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Mar 2001 23:23:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.31.121) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 23:23:31 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:23:31 -0800 Received: from 204.160.183.12 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:23:30 GMT X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.12] To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:23:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2001 23:23:31.0017 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A517390:01C0A5CB] From: "miKi mn" Now, would this be considered a dimpled or hanging chad? - miKi >From: Dunx >Reply-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com >To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:25:56 -0800 > >On Mon, 05 Mar 2001, you wrote: > > PASS > > > > {Sounds fine to me, not overly complicated...} > >OK, I'm a bit confused here - do you mean you're voting for the Proposal to >pass? Or are you abstaining? > >I should have been clearer on this since we're restarting, but could >Players please Vote one of: > > FOR (should you wish the Proposal to succeed) > AGAINST (should you wish to see the Proposal fail) > PASS (if you want to abstain) > >A vote of PASS will be entered in any case if you don't Vote explicitly. > >Apologies for the confusion. > >-- >Dunx >The only Ultimate Truth is that there isn't one. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mn_miKi@h... Mon Mar 05 15:25:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 5 Mar 2001 23:25:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 10428 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2001 23:24:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Mar 2001 23:24:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.31.13) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Mar 2001 23:24:24 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:24:23 -0800 Received: from 204.160.183.12 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:24:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.12] To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:24:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2001 23:24:23.0722 (UTC) FILETIME=[69BB98A0:01C0A5CB] From: "miKi mn" FOR Mind the gap, - miKi _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From palnatoke@g... Tue Mar 06 03:07:55 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 6 Mar 2001 11:07:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 29344 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2001 11:07:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Mar 2001 11:07:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Mar 2001 11:07:55 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: palnatoke@g... Received: from [10.1.2.4] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2001 11:07:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:07:51 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Message-ID: <982ge7+td62@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 26 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 194.255.111.49 From: "Ole Andersen" I vote FOR Dunx0001. Ole From paulway@e... Tue Mar 06 03:16:25 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 6 Mar 2001 11:16:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 64485 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2001 11:16:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Mar 2001 11:16:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Mar 2001 11:16:24 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010306111602.LAFY15800.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:16:02 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010306221550.009e5ac0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:16:02 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 In-Reply-To: <200103051645.LAA16490@s...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper FOR From kevan@s... Tue Mar 06 10:14:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 6 Mar 2001 18:14:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 54371 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2001 18:14:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Mar 2001 18:14:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mr.egroups.com) (10.1.1.37) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Mar 2001 18:14:14 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.65] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2001 18:13:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:13:50 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Vote on Dunx001 Message-ID: <9839cu+2mrb@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <01030422201800.26454@dagon> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 318 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.42.164.32 From: "Kevan Davis" Hm, not entirely sure about the multitude of majority/mutability types, or the enforced "sub-proposal" multiple-proposal approach (what's wrong with a bit of vagueness?), but it all seems perfectly robust and well-written. I vote FOR. Kevan -- http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Give a man a fish, he'll be surprised." From snowl@s... Tue Mar 06 11:51:18 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 6 Mar 2001 19:51:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 9089 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2001 19:51:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Mar 2001 19:51:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Mar 2001 19:51:17 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.76] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14aNUJ-0006ip-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:51:15 +0000 Message-ID: <00c701c0a676$c8e868c0$4c837ed4@snow> To: Subject: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:17:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" I vote PASS (meaning abstain). -- Snow (My cat is on fire.) From gthoele@G... Wed Mar 07 09:13:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gthoele@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 7 Mar 2001 17:13:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 537 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2001 17:13:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Mar 2001 17:13:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Mar 2001 18:14:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 15375 invoked by uid 0); 7 Mar 2001 17:13:47 -0000 Received: from pd90429e4.dip.t-dialin.net (217.4.41.228) by mail.gmx.net (mp012-rz3) with SMTP; 7 Mar 2001 17:13:47 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Vote on Dunx0001 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:14:17 +0100 References: <01030509302000.28040@dagon> In-Reply-To: <01030509302000.28040@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gunnar Thoele {Hallo! >OK, I'm a bit confused here - do you mean you're voting for the Proposal to >pass? Or are you abstaining? Shit. Sorry i chose the wrong word. I want the proposal to so:} FOR -- Gunnar From dunx@d... Mon Mar 12 21:51:06 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 13 Mar 2001 05:51:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 61143 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 05:51:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2001 05:51:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 05:51:05 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust37.tnt1.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.201.37]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA08112 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:51:03 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Voting Results for Dunx0001 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:02:17 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031220445301.06592@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx - Dunx0001 --------------------------------- Vote Closed: 0700 GMT 12-Mar-2001 Mandate: Active Majority Votes: FOR Gunnar, miKi, Ole, Kevan, PaulWay AGAINST - PASS Snow, Grimace Outcome: Dunx0001 Passed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto a hamburger." - Ted Nelson From dunx@d... Mon Mar 12 22:21:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 13 Mar 2001 06:21:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 11177 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 06:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2001 06:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3 with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 07:23:02 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust37.tnt1.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.201.37]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA08425 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:21:30 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:12:15 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031222230203.06592@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Friends: Now that we have an officially active set of Nomic mechanics in the new Section 0 ruleset, it's time to get down to the fun stuff and think about how to play the Game itself. What I would like to do is to get some kind of extremely basic ruleset up and running as quickly as possible so that we can get playing. To that end I'd like to open the discussion on what is the least we can have in the Game whilst being playable. My own thoughts here would be: - the map - Pieces and basic movement (with or without Line Velocity, but we need some constraint I would suggest) - one or two offensive moves (Block and Shunt?) - something to collect to make MC open (what used to be gold tokens; ticket stubs? I hesitate to suggest hats...) - very simple Buzzing (eg if a Player makes an illegal move, they forfeit their turn) The point here is to keep possession tracking to an absolute minimum. Wording, as has already been observed, should be as simple as possible without being ambiguous. Failing that, I'm also quite tempted by the idea of taking the old Section 1 and taking stuff out until it's more immediately playable. However, it would be harder to keep the language simple with that approach. In any case, if we have something playable but simple then we can add a certain amount of extra rules until it at least becomes interesting. Once that point of minimal interest is reached, then we can freeze the basic rules and get onto building Options and Variants. So, ideas please. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From paulway@e... Tue Mar 13 16:14:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 14 Mar 2001 00:14:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 33105 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2001 00:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Mar 2001 00:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Mar 2001 00:14:43 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010314001441.TIYM15800.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:14:41 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:14:40 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? In-Reply-To: <01031222230203.06592@dagon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 05:12 PM 13/03/2001, you wrote: >What I would like to do is to get some kind of extremely basic ruleset up >and running as quickly as possible so that we can get playing. To that end >I'd like to open the discussion on what is the least we can have in the >Game whilst being playable. My thoughts are: 1) The Premove/Postmove/Neutral Action system was very stable and worked well. 2) The "Player: [Actions...] Move [Actions...]" looked good and recorded things fairly well. You're never going to record everything that goes on in a move (e.g. token transactions) in a way that still allows the move to be readable by any normal person; remembering what they did is usually enough. If you can't challenge the move as it was recorded at the time then it should be left as is. 3) The Premove Actions / Move / Postmove Action system was stable. The minor flaw was in the implementation of Wild moves, which were never really ratified to all work the same way. 4) The Token system is almost essential. My opinion is that the Plastic / Metallic distinction with seven (Red, Green, Blue, Black, Bronze, Silver, Gold) is pretty much all you could ever need. My first idea here is that 'Move' is really like an action anyway - if you had a [Moving to ] Action then it would be used in exactly the same way as a normal Action. It would also make sense because a [Wild to ] is pretty much exactly the same, it just uses a separate set of governing rules. Likewise, a [Pass] is a movement action of sorts. So perhaps there are four categories of Actions: Premove Actions - must take place before any Moving action. Move Actions - must make at least one Moving action per Turn. Postmove Actions - must take place after any Moving action. Neutral Actions - can be played anywhere. Only Move Actions are allowed to affect the location of the Player's Piece, and you can do more than one per turn if allowed. For instance (starting at Elephant and Castle on the Bakerloo Line with a LV of 3): PaulWay: [Touching the Buffers] (Collecting a Silver Token at a Terminus) [LV+3] (Up my LV to six) [Moving to Oxford Circus] (four Interchanges = two black Tokens) [Collecting Green Token] (left by Dunx) [fFanshawe's Interchange Wild to Victoria] (move to any other Interchange in same Zone with same number of Lines and at least one Line in common) [Blonking the Circle Line] (just in case Kevan should try an attack) [Showing Zone 1 Pass] (three line interchange = one blue token) Victoria (VC) That's two Premove actions, one Move action, one Neutral action, another Move action, and two Postmove actions, followed by my finishing Station and Line. To me this is a good way of controlling the whole 'Move to one station then perform some action to move your piece somewhere else' problem which we struggled with in the previous Incarnation. It also opens up the scope; some Moves must accompany other Moves (e.g. move to one Station then Slide along the line to another) although most would work independently of eachother. If you think about it, there's no real need for one Move per turn - witness the pseudo-Move of Pass. Pass simply becomes a Move Action that allows you to stay where you are. That's enough from me; what do the rest of you think? >The point here is to keep possession tracking to an absolute minimum. I agree. While I think Tokens essential, everything else should be more flexible. I do think Clamps are a good solution for the problem of what State a player is in (although a typically Nomic one). >Failing that, I'm also quite tempted by the idea of taking the old Section >1 and taking stuff out until it's more immediately playable. However, it >would be harder to keep the language simple with that approach. I agree. I think perhaps the thing to do now is start with a few broad brushstrokes (such as the idea above) and then start to Propose the details as they become clear. Have fun, Paul From mn_miKi@h... Tue Mar 13 23:26:07 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mn_miki@h... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 14 Mar 2001 07:26:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 40240 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2001 07:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Mar 2001 07:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.194) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 Mar 2001 08:27:10 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:26:05 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [204.160.183.18] To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:25:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0AC14.E944D6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2001 07:26:05.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[081B24B0:01C0AC58] From: "miKi" ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0AC14.E944D6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What PaulWay proposes sounds great to me. I really like the idea of a Move = Action type, and the example presented with optional descriptions of each A= ction and the tokens earned/relinquished in the ()'s is nice. My only comme= nt is that I feel that having 7 (count them!), 7 different token types is s= omething verging on overkill. We should be able to get by with fewer, surel= y? Mind the gap, - miKi ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul Wayper=20 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? At 05:12 PM 13/03/2001, you wrote: >What I would like to do is to get some kind of extremely basic ruleset u= p >and running as quickly as possible so that we can get playing. To that e= nd >I'd like to open the discussion on what is the least we can have in the >Game whilst being playable. My thoughts are: 1) The Premove/Postmove/Neutral Action system was very stable and worked = well. 2) The "Player: [Actions...] Move [Actions...]" looked good and recorded= =20 things fairly well. You're never going to record everything that goes on= =20 in a move (e.g. token transactions) in a way that still allows the move t= o=20 be readable by any normal person; remembering what they did is usually=20 enough. If you can't challenge the move as it was recorded at the time=20 then it should be left as is. 3) The Premove Actions / Move / Postmove Action system was stable. The=20 minor flaw was in the implementation of Wild moves, which were never real= ly=20 ratified to all work the same way. 4) The Token system is almost essential. My opinion is that the Plastic = /=20 Metallic distinction with seven (Red, Green, Blue, Black, Bronze, Silver,= =20 Gold) is pretty much all you could ever need. My first idea here is that 'Move' is really like an action anyway - if yo= u=20 had a [Moving to ] Action then it would be used in exactly the=20 same way as a normal Action. It would also make sense because a [Wild to= =20 ] is pretty much exactly the same, it just uses a separate set o= f=20 governing rules. Likewise, a [Pass] is a movement action of sorts. So=20 perhaps there are four categories of Actions: Premove Actions - must take place before any Moving action. Move Actions - must make at least one Moving action per Turn. Postmove Actions - must take place after any Moving action. Neutral Actions - can be played anywhere. Only Move Actions are allowed to affect the location of the Player's Piec= e,=20 and you can do more than one per turn if allowed. For instance (starting= =20 at Elephant and Castle on the Bakerloo Line with a LV of 3): PaulWay: [Touching the Buffers] (Collecting a Silver Token at a Terminus) [LV+3] (Up my LV to six) [Moving to Oxford Circus] (four Interchanges =3D two black Toke= ns) [Collecting Green Token] (left by Dunx) [fFanshawe's Interchange Wild to Victoria] (move to any other=20 Interchange in same Zone with same number of Lines and at least one Line = in=20 common) [Blonking the Circle Line] (just in case Kevan should try an at= tack) [Showing Zone 1 Pass] (three line interchange =3D one blue toke= n) Victoria (VC) That's two Premove actions, one Move action, one Neutral action, another= =20 Move action, and two Postmove actions, followed by my finishing Station a= nd=20 Line. To me this is a good way of controlling the whole 'Move to one station th= en=20 perform some action to move your piece somewhere else' problem which we=20 struggled with in the previous Incarnation. It also opens up the scope;= =20 some Moves must accompany other Moves (e.g. move to one Station then Slid= e=20 along the line to another) although most would work independently of=20 eachother. If you think about it, there's no real need for one Move per= =20 turn - witness the pseudo-Move of Pass. Pass simply becomes a Move Actio= n=20 that allows you to stay where you are. That's enough from me; what do the rest of you think? >The point here is to keep possession tracking to an absolute minimum. I agree. While I think Tokens essential, everything else should be more= =20 flexible. I do think Clamps are a good solution for the problem of what= =20 State a player is in (although a typically Nomic one). >Failing that, I'm also quite tempted by the idea of taking the old Secti= on >1 and taking stuff out until it's more immediately playable. However, it >would be harder to keep the language simple with that approach. I agree. I think perhaps the thing to do now is start with a few broad=20 brushstrokes (such as the idea above) and then start to Propose the detai= ls=20 as they become clear. Have fun, Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 iWin.com - The Place to Win Stuff!=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0AC14.E944D6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What PaulWay proposes sounds great to me= . I=20 really like the idea of a Move Action type, and the example presented = with=20 optional descriptions of each Action and the tokens earned/relinquished=20 in the ()'s is nice. My only comment is that I feel that having 7 (cou= nt=20 them!), 7 different token types is something verging on overkill. We should= be=20 able to get by with fewer, surely?

Mind=20 the gap,
 - miKi
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Pa= ul=20 Wayper
To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:14= =20 PM
Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin?

At 05:12 PM 13/03/2001, you wrote:
>What I would= like=20 to do is to get some kind of extremely basic ruleset up
>and runnin= g as=20 quickly as possible so that we can get playing. To that end
>I'd li= ke to=20 open the discussion on what is the least we can have in the
>Game w= hilst=20 being playable.

My thoughts are:

1) The Premove/Postmove/Ne= utral=20 Action system was very stable and worked well.

2) The "Player:=20 [Actions...] Move [Actions...]" looked good and recorded
things fairl= y=20 well.  You're never going to record everything that goes on
in a= move=20 (e.g. token transactions) in a way that still allows the move to
be=20 readable by any normal person; remembering what they did is usually=20
enough.  If you can't challenge the move as it was recorded at t= he=20 time
then it should be left as is.

3) The Premove Actions / Mo= ve /=20 Postmove Action system was stable.  The
minor flaw was in the=20 implementation of Wild moves, which were never really
ratified to all= work=20 the same way.

4) The Token system is almost essential.  My op= inion=20 is that the Plastic /
Metallic distinction with seven (Red, Green, Bl= ue,=20 Black, Bronze, Silver,
Gold) is pretty much all you could ever=20 need.

My first idea here is that 'Move' is really like an action a= nyway=20 - if you
had a [Moving to <Station>] Action then it would be us= ed in=20 exactly the
same way as a normal Action.  It would also make sen= se=20 because a [Wild to
<Station>] is pretty much exactly the same, = it=20 just uses a separate set of
governing rules.  Likewise, a [Pass]= is a=20 movement action of sorts.  So
perhaps there are four categories = of=20 Actions:

Premove Actions - must take place before any Moving=20 action.
Move Actions - must make at least one Moving action per=20 Turn.
Postmove Actions - must take place after any Moving=20 action.
Neutral Actions - can be played anywhere.

Only Move Act= ions=20 are allowed to affect the location of the Player's Piece,
and you can= do=20 more than one per turn if allowed.  For instance (starting
at=20 Elephant and Castle on the Bakerloo Line with a LV of 3):

PaulWay:= =20 [Touching the Buffers] (Collecting a Silver Token at a=20 Terminus)
          [LV+3= ] (Up=20 my LV to six)
         =20 [Moving to Oxford Circus] (four Interchanges =3D two black=20 Tokens)
          [Collec= ting=20 Green Token] (left by=20 Dunx)
          [fFanshaw= e's=20 Interchange Wild to Victoria] (move to any other
Interchange in same = Zone=20 with same number of Lines and at least one Line in=20
common)
         =20 [Blonking the Circle Line] (just in case Kevan should try an=20 attack)
          [Showin= g=20 Zone 1 Pass] (three line interchange =3D one blue=20 token)
          Victoria= =20 (VC)

That's two Premove actions, one Move action, one Neutral acti= on,=20 another
Move action, and two Postmove actions, followed by my finishi= ng=20 Station and
Line.

To me this is a good way of controlling the = whole=20 'Move to one station then
perform some action to move your piece some= where=20 else' problem which we
struggled with in the previous Incarnation.&nb= sp;=20 It also opens up the scope;
some Moves must accompany other Moves (e.= g.=20 move to one Station then Slide
along the line to another) although mo= st=20 would work independently of
eachother.  If you think about it,=20 there's no real need for one Move per
turn - witness the pseudo-Move = of=20 Pass.  Pass simply becomes a Move Action
that allows you to stay= =20 where you are.

That's enough from me; what do the rest of you=20 think?

>The point here is to keep possession tracking to an abs= olute=20 minimum.

I agree.  While I think Tokens essential, everything= else=20 should be more
flexible.  I do think Clamps are a good solution = for=20 the problem of what
State a player is in (although a typically Nomic= =20 one).

>Failing that, I'm also quite tempted by the idea of taki= ng=20 the old Section
>1 and taking stuff out until it's more immediately= =20 playable. However, it
>would be harder to keep the language simple = with=20 that approach.

I agree.  I think perhaps the thing to do now = is=20 start with a few broad
brushstrokes (such as the idea above) and then= =20 start to Propose the details
as they become clear.

Have=20 fun,

Paul



Your=20 use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0AC14.E944D6A0-- From gthoele@G... Wed Mar 14 11:10:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gthoele@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 14 Mar 2001 19:09:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 55425 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2001 19:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Mar 2001 19:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Mar 2001 19:09:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 27053 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 2001 19:09:56 -0000 Received: from pd9042949.dip.t-dialin.net (217.4.41.73) by mail.gmx.net (mp017-rz3) with SMTP; 14 Mar 2001 19:09:56 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:10:11 +0100 References: <01031222230203.06592@dagon> In-Reply-To: <01031222230203.06592@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gunnar Thoele Hallo! My suggestions are: > -map I suggest using the current state of real-life London Transport, including the JLE and every "Underground" line and also the DLR, but not Tramlink and mainline railways. > - Pieces and basic movement (with or without Line Velocity, but we need > some constraint I would suggest) Line velocity seems to be a good concept as far as i know. Additionally i would personally like that movements are not dependent on dice. > - something to collect to make MC open (what used to be gold tokens; > ticket stubs? I hesitate to suggest hats...) Wasn't it (the real-life stazion) closed for rebuilding some time ago? Why not collect building material (tiles, concrete,...)? > - very simple Buzzing (eg if a Player makes an illegal move, they > forfeit their turn) I agree. -- Gunnar From snowl@s... Wed Mar 14 13:31:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 14 Mar 2001 21:31:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 50768 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2001 21:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Mar 2001 21:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Mar 2001 21:31:05 -0000 Received: from [212.126.131.164] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14dIrH-000FV9-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:31:03 +0000 Message-ID: <008d01c0acce$02b91ba0$a4837ed4@snow> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:28:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" > 2) The "Player: [Actions...] Move [Actions...]" looked good and recorded > things fairly well. You're never going to record everything that goes on > in a move (e.g. token transactions) in a way that still allows the move to > be readable by any normal person I think we should at least aim to have the GSD describe our Turns fully. If it proves it too complicated then we can leave it. But we shouldn't set out to leave gaps. > 4) The Token system is almost essential. My opinion is that the Plastic / > Metallic distinction with seven (Red, Green, Blue, Black, Bronze, Silver, > Gold) is pretty much all you could ever need. IMO this is too much. I would say a better system would be to work out what types of Tokens are needed and then decide what to call them. I think there are 3 or 4 types needed: 1) Tokens for agressive/targeting Actions. 2) Tokens for defensive Actions. 3) Tokens for winning/special Actions. 4) Tokens for movement Actions. Whether movement Tokens are needed depends on whether moving needs Tokens. If not then Actions that cause movement are just Special Actions. Also type 3 might be better if there was a high (gold) Token and a low (Silver) Token. > My first idea here is that 'Move' is really like an action anyway - if you > had a [Moving to ] Action then it would be used in exactly the > same way as a normal Action. On the 4th June 2000 I said: >> I think moves should be made actions to standardize the notation. To which PaulWay replied: > I disagree. I think it looks fine. It also makes the person's current > location very easy to find in the GSD. Anyway I agree with making moves Actions. > Premove Actions - must take place before any Moving action. The only ones I can think of that would go here are ones that are in the Player's interest to go here. If players want to do stupid things why not let them. I don't think premove actions are required. > Move Actions - must make at least one Moving action per Turn. Why must someone make a move? Why not just let them sit there? Loops are a special case, but they are a special case whether or not you force Players to move. > Postmove Actions - must take place after any Moving action. I think 'must take place after all moving Actions' would be better. Post-move Actions are often agressive, so the Player should not be allowed to run away. > Only Move Actions are allowed to affect the location of the Player's Piece, > and you can do more than one per turn if allowed. Agreed. I like the idea of allowing more than one move per turn. > Pass simply becomes a Move Action > that allows you to stay where you are. Pass would have to be limited to Turns that don't contain any other moves. > >The point here is to keep possession tracking to an absolute minimum. > > I agree. While I think Tokens essential, Agreed. Tokens are central to the game. > everything else should be more > flexible. I do think Clamps are a good solution for the problem of what > State a player is in (although a typically Nomic one). I not convined there's anything wrong with writing "Knip" next to the Player's name. But it's just symbology, so I don't really mind one way or the other. -- Snow (1245678912456789124567891245678912456789) From snowl@s... Wed Mar 14 13:46:48 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 14 Mar 2001 21:46:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 69942 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2001 21:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Mar 2001 21:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Mar 2001 21:46:01 -0000 Received: from [212.126.141.147] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14dJ5g-000Foe-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:45:56 +0000 Message-ID: <009301c0acd0$16e11a40$a4837ed4@snow> To: Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:44:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Gunnar said: > Hallo! Hi. > My suggestions are: > > -map > I suggest using the current state of real-life London Transport, > including the JLE and every "Underground" line and also the DLR, but > not Tramlink and mainline railways. The map should be fixed once we have a stable ruleset, but I agree that we should update to the latest version. > > - Pieces and basic movement (with or without Line Velocity, but we need > > some constraint I would suggest) > Line velocity seems to be a good concept as far as i know. I don't like LV. Turn time is my prefered method of move regulation. LV's biggest problem (among a miriad of smaller ones) is that it allows too much movement inside Zone 1 and hinders movement outside it. > Additionally i would personally like that movements are not dependent > on dice. Agreed, dice introduce too much complexity by email. > > - something to collect to make MC open (what used to be gold tokens; > > ticket stubs? I hesitate to suggest hats...) > Wasn't it (the real-life stazion) closed for rebuilding some time ago? > Why not collect building material (tiles, concrete,...)? This is how MCArena works. I seem to remember there were reasons why it wouldn't work with Mornomic, but I can't remember them. -- Snow (333333333333333) From paulway@e... Wed Mar 14 19:30:04 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 15 Mar 2001 03:30:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 78607 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2001 03:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Mar 2001 03:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Mar 2001 03:30:03 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010315033001.JXBM15800.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:30:01 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20010315104321.01dfc240@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:30:01 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? In-Reply-To: <008d01c0acce$02b91ba0$a4837ed4@snow> References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 08:28 AM 15/03/2001, you wrote: >On the 4th June 2000 I said: > > >> I think moves should be made actions to standardize the notation. > >To which PaulWay replied: > > > I disagree. I think it looks fine. It also makes the person's > > current location very easy to find in the GSD. OK, here's a life-size oil painting of me standing in a corner wearing a dunce's cap, a monkey suit, a banana in each ear and having a cream pie rammed into my face just fast enough to make it wrap around the side of my head. I'm sorry, Snow, that I didn't see what you were on about then, otherwise I would have agreed with you. Maybe you didn't explain it enough for my simple brain, maybe I was just too intent on the old way of play to think about it. Anyway, I owe you a large drink and a good deal of kudos. Which reminds me, are we going to have Kudos again? My gut says 'yeah!' but my brain says 'that's a Nomic thing, and it doesn't contribute to the game. Shut up, gut.' >The only ones I can think of that would go here are ones that are in >the Player's interest to go here. If players want to do stupid things >why not let them. I don't think premove actions are required. I think that some types of actions are useful as Pre-move only: line velocity changes, for instance (again, on the 'don't let them run away' principle, perhaps). >Why must someone make a move? Why not just let them sit there? Loops >are a special case, but they are a special case whether or not you >force Players to move. Well, if Pass is a valid Movement action, then this simplifies things. Having the "You can Move or you can Pass" thing is just a more complex way of saying "You must Move, but a move can be a Pass". If you see what I mean. Forcing Looping by making everyone play a "Loop to " Move Action seems a very useful device too. >I think 'must take place after all moving Actions' would be better. >Post-move Actions are often agressive, so the Player should not be >allowed to run away. Er, yes. That's what I meant... Agreed. >Pass would have to be limited to Turns that don't contain any other >moves. Yep. >I not convined there's anything wrong with writing "Knip" next to the >Player's name. But it's just symbology, so I don't really mind one way >or the other. True. But all the mechanisms for dealing with those symbols are equivalent to the Clamp mechanisms anyway. And, in defence of seven coloured tokens, I will say that they fit reasonably neatly into the GSD headers, and allowed a breadth and depth of Action 'qualification' that was useful. I don't like using one type of token as a general catch-all 'cost' device. As an aside, I think that Blue tokens should lose the 'specialty item' status they seemed to have in the previous Incarnation. Have fun, Paul From snowl@s... Thu Mar 15 14:31:01 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 15 Mar 2001 22:31:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 33056 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2001 22:30:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Mar 2001 22:30:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Mar 2001 22:30:59 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.52] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14dgGn-00022Y-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:30:58 +0000 Message-ID: <003a01c0ad9f$8ac44de0$344b08c3@snow> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010315104321.01dfc240@m...> Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:30:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > At 08:28 AM 15/03/2001, you wrote: > I think that some types of actions are useful as Pre-move only: line > velocity changes, for instance (again, on the 'don't let them run away' > principle, perhaps). Well I hope we can find something better than line velocity (time maybe), but I accept that there may be actions that are required to be pre-move. My concern was that if there are only 2 or 3 actions that are in the game's interest to be pre-move (rather than the player's interest), that we don't clutter up the ruleset explicity saying they are neutral. However having thought about it if we move to a HTML/XML ruleset it should be possible to keep it tidy. > >Why must someone make a move? > > Well, if Pass is a valid Movement action, then this simplifies > things. Having the "You can Move or you can Pass" thing is just a more > complex way of saying "You must Move, but a move can be a Pass". If you > see what I mean. But wouldn't it be less complex not to say anything? Or do I misunderstand? > Forcing Looping by making everyone play a "Loop to " Move Action > seems a very useful device too. But you have to say that anyway. In a loop you have to finish your turn on the loop station (or make a move action to it), it doesn't make a difference whether normal turns require a move or not. > >I not convined there's anything wrong with writing "Knip" next to the > >Player's name. But it's just symbology, so I don't really mind one way > >or the other. > > True. But all the mechanisms for dealing with those symbols are equivalent > to the Clamp mechanisms anyway. OK > And, in defence of seven coloured tokens, I will say that they fit > reasonably neatly into the GSD headers, Ahh, GSD headers... I found these to be a bit of a pain to read and a very large pain to edit. And in the wrong place, they should be at the foot of the GSD where the last move is. I would favour a simple footer like: Game (10:23): Embankment blocked, bridges up ---------------------------------------------------- Rushton (Wimbledon): 1Go, 4Si, 8Gr, knip clamp Cryer (Euston): 2Go, 3Br, 2Gr, suspect package clamp Garden (S.Kensington): 1Bk, on fire clamp > and allowed a breadth and depth of > Action 'qualification' that was useful. I don't like using one type of > token as a general catch-all 'cost' device. Well, I would think 3 or 4 tokens covers most categories. Green tokens were pretty much pointless; you just [Recycle ] then [Action with green token]. Similarly the exchange thing at Bank reduced Gold/Silver/Bronze to effectively 2 Token types. Red - Agressive Blue - Defensive Gold - Special actions (inc winning) Black (if needed) - movement What more is needed? -- Snow (Scientists have proved that 97% of paperweights are incapable of unassisted flight) From dunx@d... Thu Mar 15 22:47:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 16 Mar 2001 06:47:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 42620 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2001 06:47:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Mar 2001 06:47:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Mar 2001 06:47:08 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust243.tnt1.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.21.201.243]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA26291 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:47:05 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:30:15 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010315104321.01dfc240@m...> <003a01c0ad9f$8ac44de0$344b08c3@snow> In-Reply-To: <003a01c0ad9f$8ac44de0$344b08c3@snow> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031522362900.15580@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Where to begin indeed. It's arguable whether this message is going to be particularly useful, since most of the points which I wanted to raise in relation to my original discussion suggestions have already been made. I apologise if there seems to be an element of "me too!", but there we have it. In any case, I'll just go through the few points mentioned in the first place and my thinking on them. I'll also bring in some elements from other people's messages. I should also explain that my focus here is very much on the core rules, the point being to make a ruleset which is simple enough to understand, complex enough to be interesting, and extensible. The points I wanted to discuss were: > - the map My point in raising this was to suggest going for a modern map, which seems to be a general point of agreement. However, using a modern map requires a program to render PDF (since I believe that is the only form published by London Transport these days). Is that going to be OK? I remember the last time use of a PDF map was mentioned some Players objected because they didn't have the plugin. How is everyone fixed for Adobe Acrobat or similar? > - Pieces and basic movement (with or without Line Velocity, but we need > some constraint I would suggest) I don't have a particular agenda here. I personally am quite happy with LV, but I can appreciate the objections to it. Snow, when you mention using Turn Time to regulate movement do you mean saying that (for instance) each station moved takes five minutes, but line changes cost ten? I apologise if I missed earlier debate on this subject. Is Turn Time a good idea in the Basic Rules? Obviously the full panoply of the Richard Whiteley Experience and Carol Vorderman's Revenge (Section 1.13 in the old rules) would be monstrous overkill, but even allocating people an hour to play in is quite a bit of book-keeping. Despite its imperfections, LV has the distinct advantage of being easy to track. > - one or two offensive moves (Block and Shunt?) This touches on a couple of issues, both of which have been mentioned by others: a) Actions b) Tokens I had come to the very firm conclusion that Actions were essential, if only because they are an extremely effective way of adding new mechanics. I am glad to see that this appears to be the consensus. My thinking was that, in the Basic Rules at least, we might be able to dispense with Pre/Post-Move Actions, effectively saying that Actions are Post-Move, but that makes LV manipulation tricky (if we use LV). Making Moves Actions would obviate the need for the distinction though, as long as we say that things happen during a Turn in the order they are described. As for Tokens... well, I agree there are too many kinds, especially for the Basic Rules. We do need something to restrict Players from doing everything every Turn though, and Token cost is pretty effective in this (as is Turn Time, but see earlier remarks about this possibly being too much for the Basic Rules). I thought we could probably get away with just Black, Red and Gold tokens in the Basic Rules: - Black would be a general purpose token - Red would be the attacking token - Gold would be the special token Whether we actually use these colours is moot, of course. Related to the huge number of tokens is the monster GSD header. Snow has already touched on this, and indeed has described pretty much what I was going to suggest: fold the Token tracking into the luggage rack. Putting the information at the end of the GSD is a tremendous idea too, since it will make it much easier to make moves. > - something to collect to make MC open (what used to be gold tokens; > ticket stubs? I hesitate to suggest hats...) This point actually becomes less relevant if we have Tokens, since we can use Gold Tokens again. I mentioned it because I wasn't sure if we were going to have tokens in the basic rules. It's worth mentioning the abstract/realist division, though. One of the difficulties with MN towards the end of its last incarnation was the proliferation of weird and wonderful possessions: clothing, wildlife, musical instruments, a massive variety of clamps... it got a bit, well, silly. It's been termed Mornington Roleplay by some. Which way do we go? Is Mornington Crescent an immersive experience meant to recreate the feeling of travelling the Underground, or an abstract game which just happens to use the map as a medium? I'm firmly in the abstract camp, frankly, particularly for the Basic Rules. I'm of this opinion because it will be much easier to construct Special Ruleset options which bolt the RPG elements on the side of sensible core mechanics than to remove distracting whimsical elements for a more abstract game. > - very simple Buzzing (eg if a Player makes an illegal move, they > forfeit their turn) Seems to be a consensus on this one. Not much else to say. One final point: PaulWay said: > Which reminds me, are we going to have Kudos again? My gut says 'yeah!' > but my brain says 'that's a Nomic thing, and it doesn't contribute to the > game. Shut up, gut.' Your brain is correct, Paul. Just say no. We're not at a point of complete consensus yet, but I think it's worth starting to rough out a Basic Rules section to plug stuff into. If nobody else beats me to it, I'll put something up over the weekend. One procedural point, though: I think we should avoid having a single monster Proposal for the Basic Rules like we had for Section 0. Maybe this is a good time for a bit of division of labour? -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From david@d... Fri Mar 16 10:09:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: david@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 16 Mar 2001 18:08:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 67809 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2001 18:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Mar 2001 18:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dillinger.lbjhs.net) (198.214.138.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Mar 2001 18:08:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by dillinger.lbjhs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id MAA05812 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:07:25 -0600 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:07:21 -0600 (CST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? In-Reply-To: <01031522362900.15580@dagon> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Lynch On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Dunx wrote: > Where to begin indeed. > > It's arguable whether this message is going to be particularly useful, > since most of the points which I wanted to raise in relation to my original > discussion suggestions have already been made. I apologise if there seems > to be an element of "me too!", but there we have it. > > In any case, I'll just go through the few points mentioned in the first > place and my thinking on them. I'll also bring in some elements from other > people's messages. > > I should also explain that my focus here is very much on the core rules, > the point being to make a ruleset which is simple enough to understand, > complex enough to be interesting, and extensible. > > The points I wanted to discuss were: > > > - the map > > My point in raising this was to suggest going for a modern map, which > seems to be a general point of agreement. However, using a modern map > requires a program to render PDF (since I believe that is the only form > published by London Transport these days). I believe that I have, somewhere in the chaos that is known as my hard disk, a copy of the last JPG version LT (or TfL, whatever they're called this week) put out, which is post-Jubilee-Extension. (We certianly don't want to use the current version, with every BR station as an interchange blob, and the (temporary) deletion of the District around the west side of the Circle.) If I find it, I'll upload it to the files area. > Is that going to be OK? I remember the last time use of a PDF map was > mentioned some Players objected because they didn't have the plugin. > How is everyone fixed for Adobe Acrobat or similar? If all else fails, take screen shots of the PDF and stitch them together. > > - Pieces and basic movement (with or without Line Velocity, but we need > > some constraint I would suggest) > > I don't have a particular agenda here. I personally am quite happy with > LV, but I can appreciate the objections to it. I have no real objections here, but wouldn't be too terribly unhappy if we were to do away with it. > Is Turn Time a good idea in the Basic Rules? Obviously the full panoply > of the Richard Whiteley Experience and Carol Vorderman's Revenge > (Section 1.13 in the old rules) would be monstrous overkill, but even > allocating people an hour to play in is quite a bit of book-keeping. If the book-keeping is going to be a major problem, make moving 20 minutes, with additional time for line changes, if we so desire. - David James Lynch - david@d... From gthoele@G... Fri Mar 16 12:25:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gthoele@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 16 Mar 2001 20:25:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 77055 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2001 20:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Mar 2001 20:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Mar 2001 20:25:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 29879 invoked by uid 0); 16 Mar 2001 20:25:54 -0000 Received: from brun-3e36cf02.pool.mediaways.net (62.54.207.2) by mail.gmx.net (mp007-rz3) with SMTP; 16 Mar 2001 20:25:54 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:26:06 +0100 References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010315104321.01dfc240@m...> <003a01c0ad9f$8ac44de0$344b08c3@snow> <01031522362900.15580@dagon> In-Reply-To: <01031522362900.15580@dagon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gunnar Thoele Hallo! > requires a program to render PDF (since I believe that is the only form > published by London Transport these days). > For me PDF is fine. And if somebody feels like it's not good, it should be possible to make a JPG image from it without too much hassle... -- Gunnar From snowl@s... Fri Mar 16 15:28:21 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 16 Mar 2001 23:28:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 82878 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2001 23:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Mar 2001 23:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Mar 2001 23:28:19 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.102] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14e3do-000Bop-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:28:17 +0000 Message-ID: <004001c0ae70$b70b11a0$66877ed4@snow> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> <5.0.0.25.1.20010315104321.01dfc240@m...> <003a01c0ad9f$8ac44de0$344b08c3@snow> <01031522362900.15580@dagon> Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:26:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx said: > I remember the last time use of a PDF map was > mentioned some Players objected because they didn't have the plugin. > How is everyone fixed for Adobe Acrobat or similar? It's easy enough to convert the PDF version to JPEG. > Snow, when you mention using Turn Time to regulate movement do you mean > saying that (for instance) each station moved takes five minutes, but > line changes cost ten? I apologise if I missed earlier debate on this > subject. That's the sort of thing; though I hadn't any firm ideas. > Is Turn Time a good idea in the Basic Rules? Obviously the full panoply > of the Richard Whiteley Experience and Carol Vorderman's Revenge > (Section 1.13 in the old rules) would be monstrous overkill, but even > allocating people an hour to play in is quite a bit of book-keeping. Well, there are other options: 1) Fixed maximum 'steps' per turn. 2) Pay for movement using tokens. 3) Allow +2 steps per turn (where is the highest zone passed through). Suggestions... > My thinking was that, in the Basic Rules at least, we might be able to > dispense with Pre/Post-Move Actions, effectively saying that Actions > are Post-Move, but that makes LV manipulation tricky (if we use LV). We could dispense with pre/post-move actions, but some actions (shunting say) should really be post-move. If you feel it's better we could just say in the actions themselves that they must occur after all moves. I'm not at all sure about saying all actions must be post move. For one thing this obstructs PaulWay's idea about multiple moves per turn. > Making Moves Actions would obviate the need for the distinction though, > as long as we say that things happen during a Turn in the order they > are described. True. > I thought we could probably get away with just Black, Red and Gold > tokens in the Basic Rules: > > - Black would be a general purpose token > - Red would be the attacking token > - Gold would be the special token Sounds fine by me. > I'm firmly in the abstract camp, frankly, particularly for the Basic > Rules. I'm of this opinion because it will be much easier to construct > Special Ruleset options which bolt the RPG elements on the side of > sensible core mechanics than to remove distracting whimsical elements > for a more abstract game. I'm abstract too. > > - very simple Buzzing (eg if a Player makes an illegal move, they > > forfeit their turn) > > Seems to be a consensus on this one. Not much else to say. OK by me. > > Which reminds me, are we going to have Kudos again? My gut says 'yeah!' > > but my brain says 'that's a Nomic thing, and it doesn't contribute to the > > game. Shut up, gut.' > > Your brain is correct, Paul. Just say no. Absolutely, resist the temptation. > We're not at a point of complete consensus yet, but I think it's worth > starting to rough out a Basic Rules section to plug stuff into. If nobody > else beats me to it, I'll put something up over the weekend. If you're talking about a document that we can point at to help focus our discussions then OK. If your talking about a proposal with actual rules in I don't think we have anything solid to propose > One procedural point, though: I think we should avoid having a single > monster Proposal for the Basic Rules like we had for Section 0. Maybe this > is a good time for a bit of division of labour? No, everything should be discussed by everyone. If the ruleset starts being divided up then people will start adding/changing things without proper debate. Once as much agreement as possible is gained then it can be divided up. -- Snow (trick penguin steals tree) From dunx@d... Fri Mar 16 16:09:41 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 17 Mar 2001 00:09:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 57908 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 00:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Mar 2001 00:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 00:09:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 24445 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 00:10:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (130.213.201.142) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 00:10:00 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:57:39 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> <01031522362900.15580@dagon> <004001c0ae70$b70b11a0$66877ed4@snow> In-Reply-To: <004001c0ae70$b70b11a0$66877ed4@snow> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031616115403.18118@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Snow wrote: > It's easy enough to convert the PDF version to JPEG. I had assumed as much, but hadn't made the time to investigate. I've got a number of PDF maps kicking around, as well. I'll see what they're like. > Well, there are other options: > 1) Fixed maximum 'steps' per turn. > 2) Pay for movement using tokens. > 3) Allow +2 steps per turn (where is the highest zone > passed through). Interesting. > > My thinking was that, in the Basic Rules at least, we might be > able to > > dispense with Pre/Post-Move Actions, effectively saying that > Actions > > are Post-Move, but that makes LV manipulation tricky (if we use > LV). > > We could dispense with pre/post-move actions, but some actions > (shunting say) should really be post-move. If you feel it's better we > could just say in the actions themselves that they must occur after > all moves. *shrug* I'm ambivalent, really. On the one hand it's nice to factor out common behaviour as much as possible, on the other it's good to keep the up front definitions as short as possible to aid quicker understanding. > I'm not at all sure about saying all actions must be post move. For > one thing this obstructs PaulWay's idea about multiple moves per turn. Indeed. Forget I mentioned it. > > I thought we could probably get away with just Black, Red and > Gold > > tokens in the Basic Rules: > > > > - Black would be a general purpose token > > - Red would be the attacking token > > - Gold would be the special token > > Sounds fine by me. Goodo. > > We're not at a point of complete consensus yet, but I think it's > worth > > starting to rough out a Basic Rules section to plug stuff into. If > nobody > > else beats me to it, I'll put something up over the weekend. > > If you're talking about a document that we can point at to help focus > our discussions then OK. If your talking about a proposal with actual > rules in I don't think we have anything solid to propose I'm purely talking about a structured blank canvas. There are bits which could probably be filled in a bit (buzzing, for instance) but everything is still very much up in the air in terms of content, wording, colour of ink, etc. > > One procedural point, though: I think we should avoid having a > single > > monster Proposal for the Basic Rules like we had for Section 0. > Maybe this > > is a good time for a bit of division of labour? > > No, everything should be discussed by everyone. If the ruleset starts > being divided up then people will start adding/changing things without > proper debate. Once as much agreement as possible is gained then it > can be divided up. My fault for not explaining more fully. What I meant to suggest was that individuals could go away and write stuff, but I'm absolutely with you that everything in the Basic Rules should be discussed thoroughly before it's written up and voted on. It probably is too early for that yet. I suppose I'm hankering for something more concrete to pick holes in, though. Ho hum. -- Dunx Just because automatic transmissions don't require a clutch pedal doesn't mean you should put the handbrake there! From dunx@d... Sun Mar 25 21:48:39 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Mar 2001 05:48:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 26160 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2001 05:48:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Mar 2001 05:48:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Mar 2001 05:48:37 -0000 Received: from dagon (1Cust187.tnt7.beaverton.or.da.uu.net [63.26.124.187]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA19804 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:48:36 -0800 (PST) To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MN: Basic Rules Structure Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:40:27 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01032521511702.00593@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Dunx Sorry, people, I haven't done the Basic Rules Structure document yet. One thing I have been wondering about is whether to follow a format similar to that of Section 1 of the Old Rules (which was certainly my original thought) or to push for something more discursive. The relative benefits and costs of these two approaches include: Section 1 Style: Pros easy to maintain, since there is little duplication easy to extend Cons hard to read or understand cold hugely off-putting to new Players Discursive Style Pros much easier to follow, since terms are defined where needed duplicate descriptions are allowed, again aiding understanding Cons harder to write in the first place harder to maintain due to duplication What do people think? Is this a distinction worth drawing? Should we actually have two ruleset documents, one which defines the rules in an unambigous but possibly impenetrable way, and another which is readable? -- Dunx "Fixing HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto a hamburger." - Ted Nelson From snowl@s... Fri Mar 30 13:12:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 30 Mar 2001 21:12:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 81029 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2001 21:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Mar 2001 21:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Mar 2001 21:12:29 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.26] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14j6C3-000OaH-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:12:28 +0100 Message-ID: <005901c0b95e$19822d80$1a877ed4@snow> To: References: <5.0.0.25.1.20010314104700.01f16bf0@m...> <01031522362900.15580@dagon> <004001c0ae70$b70b11a0$66877ed4@snow> <01031616115403.18118@dagon> Subject: Re: MN: Where To Begin? Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:02:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx said: > > We could dispense with pre/post-move actions, but some actions > > (shunting say) should really be post-move. If you feel it's better we > > could just say in the actions themselves that they must occur after > > all moves. > > *shrug* I'm ambivalent, really. On the one hand it's nice to factor out > common behaviour as much as possible, on the other it's good to keep the > up front definitions as short as possible to aid quicker understanding. Personally I would put the restriction in the rules to start with and only factor them out if there were enough to warrant it. > > > One procedural point, though: I think we should avoid having a > > single > > > monster Proposal for the Basic Rules like we had for Section 0. > > Maybe this > > > is a good time for a bit of division of labour? > > > > No, everything should be discussed by everyone. If the ruleset starts > > being divided up then people will start adding/changing things without > > proper debate. Once as much agreement as possible is gained then it > > can be divided up. > > My fault for not explaining more fully. > > What I meant to suggest was that individuals could go away and write > stuff, but I'm absolutely with you that everything in the Basic Rules > should be discussed thoroughly before it's written up and voted on. Sorry, I overreacted there. That sounds like a good plan. > It probably is too early for that yet. I suppose I'm hankering for > something more concrete to pick holes in, though. I have no objection to having a draft ruleset. As long as nothing in it is taken as the 'correct way' until voted on. -- Snow (Having nothing to say isn't going to stop me saying it) From snowl@s... Fri Mar 30 13:12:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 30 Mar 2001 21:12:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 36353 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2001 21:12:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Mar 2001 21:12:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Mar 2001 21:12:30 -0000 Received: from [212.126.135.26] (helo=snow) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 14j6C4-000OaH-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:12:29 +0100 Message-ID: <005a01c0b95e$1a427040$1a877ed4@snow> To: References: <01032521511702.00593@dagon> Subject: Re: Basic Rules Structure Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:09:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Snow" Dunx wrote: > One thing I have been wondering about is whether to follow a format > similar to that of Section 1 of the Old Rules (which was certainly my > original thought) or to push for something more discursive. > > What do people think? Is this a distinction worth drawing? Should we > actually have two ruleset documents, one which defines the rules in an > unambigous but possibly impenetrable way, and another which is readable? I think the idea PaulWay put forward a while ago is probably the best. Have a rule-by-rule version as the 'official' one and then (if anyone has the time/desire to write it) a 'guide' written in a less formal style. -- Snow (i hATE cAPS lOCK) From nomic_miKi@y... Sun Apr 29 08:23:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nomic_miki@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 29 Apr 2001 15:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 64095 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2001 15:23:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2001 15:23:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp014.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.173.58) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Apr 2001 15:23:41 -0000 Received: from dsl-64-130-134-229.telocity.com (HELO yahoo.com) (64.130.134.229) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2001 15:23:40 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3AEC3242.C862B95D@y...> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:24:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en-gb] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: new email... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: miKi I have a new email address. -- miKi -- -- nomic_miKi@y... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From riff10111@y... Tue Jun 05 16:40:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riff10111@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 23:40:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 23253 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 23:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 23:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.43) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 23:40:36 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: riff10111@y... Received: from [10.1.2.52] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 23:40:36 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:40:32 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: grammar Message-ID: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 410 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 12.46.236.114 From: "RiffRaff" Hello all - sorry I didn't get those boardgame-version rules up yet. I'm working on revising them right now, actually, after some additional testing. Plus I'm trying to make them readable to people who aren't ultra-pedantic rules lawyers. ;) Which brings me to my question: is it more accurate to say "West Acton is served by the Central Line", or "West Acton serves the Central Line"? cheers, --Riff From dunx@d... Tue Jun 05 16:46:36 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 23:46:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 25476 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 23:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 23:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 23:46:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 12280 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 23:46:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 23:46:55 -0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:46:52 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106051646520L.00813@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis On Tuesday 05 June 2001 16:40, you wrote: > Hello all - sorry I didn't get those boardgame-version rules up yet. > I'm working on revising them right now, actually, after some > additional testing. Plus I'm trying to make them readable to people > who aren't ultra-pedantic rules lawyers. ;) Apologies also from me for not yet putting up any proposed Section 1 rules. Just been, well, busy doing other things. If anyone else wants to step into the drafting breach, please do so. > Which brings me to my question: is it more accurate to say "West > Acton is served by the Central Line", or "West Acton serves the > Central Line"? The former, I would say. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From paulway@e... Tue Jun 05 16:51:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 23:51:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 17220 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 23:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 23:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 23:51:22 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010605235120.JSQK10996.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:51:20 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095105.03a2e7d0@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:51:19 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 09:40 AM 6/06/2001, you wrote: >Hello all - sorry I didn't get those boardgame-version rules up yet. >I'm working on revising them right now, actually, after some >additional testing. Plus I'm trying to make them readable to people >who aren't ultra-pedantic rules lawyers. ;) > >Which brings me to my question: is it more accurate to say "West >Acton is served by the Central Line", or "West Acton serves the >Central Line"? > >cheers, >--Riff > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From paulway@e... Tue Jun 05 17:10:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 00:10:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 93269 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 00:10:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 00:10:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 00:10:35 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010606001033.KAZM10996.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:10:33 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:10:32 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <0106051646520L.00813@azathoth> References: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 09:46 AM 6/06/2001, you wrote: >Apologies also from me for not yet putting up any proposed Section 1 rules. >Just been, well, busy doing other things. >If anyone else wants to step into the drafting breach, please do so. OK, you've shamed me into it. Here's an email I was drafting some time ago on Late shift... Dunx, In a bit of time while I studiously avoid looking for things to do, I thought I might have a go at part of Ruleset 1. Let me know what you think. BTW: * is there something in Ruleset 0 about standard nomenclature for variables and expansions - e.g. the use of triangle brackets, square brackets, ellipses and so forth in 1.1.1? * I started adding Game Time into this and then thought 'no, keep it simple at first...' Likewise with Action Groups (e.g. Can't play a normal move and a wild move same turn: which of these is Turn Unique?) * Possible confusion between 'Players of Mornington Nomic' and 'Players of a Game of Mornington Crescent'? * Also, after a bit of thought, removed the section on Tokens. Someone can hardwire that in later. * This is only a first approximation, while trying to enable a complete game of MC to be played. Therefore there are a few things which I'd want to see changed as the ruleset became more complex. But here it is anyway. Rule 0.x.y - Game Start Proposals A Game Start Proposal is a valid Proposal type. A Game Start Proposal contains the proposed Game's Name, the address of one of the standard email lists currently not being used for another Game, and a list of Optional Rulesets that will be used for that Game. Voting for a Game Start Proposal requires at least three Active Players to vote 'For' it to Pass. {NB: is there some official term for that requirement?} If the Proposal Passes, a new Game is Started by following the procedure in Rule 1.1.0. If the Proposal Fails then it is discarded. Rule 1.0.0 - Mornington Crescent Definitions This Rule contains an overview of the working of a Game of Mornington Crescent. A Game of Mornington Crescent is played on a Map. By default, this is the map of the London Underground (available at http://url). Each Game is represented by its Game State Document; this document is the total summary of the current state of play of that Game, as well as a summary history of play up until that point. Game State Documents are contained in emails from the Players in that Game, and Documents posted later supersede those posted earlier. Each Game can be said to be Valid or Invalid. A Valid Game is one in which all the play up until that point has abided by the Ruleset or Rulesets that applied to that Game at the point of time at which the play was made. While a Game is in progress, the Ruleset or Rulesets that apply to that Game cannot be changed by ordinary Proposal. If the current state of play is such that it contravenes one or more Rules that apply to that Game, then the Game is considered to be Invalid and play is returned to the historic state that was most recently Valid. Once a Game has been Started, it also be said to be In Play or Won. Winning the Game consists of playing one of the appropriate Winning Actions in the Ruleset or Rulesets available for that Game. Games can be Buzzed by any Player, in order for em to point out an illegal move that has made the Game Invalid, by posting a message with the subject line containing the word "BUZZ" and pointing out what Rule or Rules have been broken. Once a Game has been Buzzed, no further Play is allowed on that Game until the question of the Validity of the Game has been sorted out to the satisfaction of the Players of that Game. Some Rules may talk about a Route. This is the path taken along the lines of the Map in exactly the same way as a commuter might travel on real trains. It moves through each Station consecutively along the Route and changes Lines only at Interchanges. A Route cannot include a 'double-back' - a change of direction of movement on one line. For instance, moving from Euston to Camden Town and back to Mornington Crescent would be considered Invalid because of a double-back at Euston. Rule 1.1.0 - Starting the Game After a Game Start Proposal is sucessfully Passed, the Game is Started in the following manner: 1) The Speaker decides the Number and Name of the Game. The Number of the Game is the next available integer higher than any other Started Game at that point in time. The Name of the Game is taken from the Name of the Proposal, and may be adapted by the Speaker to suit the style of the Game being played and in general to make it conform to the aesthetics of Mornington Crescent game names. 2) The Speaker then decides the Order of Play. E takes the list of all Players who voted For the Proposal to Start the Game and randomly assigns them a position in the Order of Play. 3) The Speaker then posts a standard Game State Document, with the Players' Holdings listed in by their place in the Order of Play, to the list designated for the use of that Game in the Game Start Proposal. Rule 1.1.1 - To everything, Turn Turn Turn. Play in a game of Mornington Crescent is broken up into Turns. During each Turn, one and only one Player is the Current Player; the other Players are Waiting during that Turn. Players follow one another in playing Turns as defined in the Order of Play. A Turn is divided up into three Phases, which follow one another in the order: Pre-move, Move, and Post-move. In each of these Phases, zero or more Actions can be played; however, a Player must play at least one Action in the Move phase of their Turn. Actions are listed in the Player's Turn in the order in which they occur in the Turn. A Player's Turn appears in the Game State Document as: ":" ([] ...) Each Player has a Piece, which represents their location on the Map. In particular, it is considered to represent a real person waiting on the platform for a train. Thus, a Piece can be said to have both a Station location and be 'on' a Line. The Current Player's Piece moves only during the Move Phase, although some Actions in other Phases might move other Waiting Player's Piece(s). Rule 1.2.0 - Action and Reaction. An Action is designated in the Game State Document as the Action Name between square brackets - for example, "[Pass]" or "[Shunting PaulWay to Shoreditch]". They are the basic unit by which a Player's Turn is enacted. Actions have various Attributes which affect how and when they may be played: * Uniqueness: There are four states of Uniqueness: Game, Turn, Phase or None. If an Action has no Uniqueness (i.e. its Uniqueness state is None) then the Player can play that Action more than once during eir turn if desired. Otherwise, the state specifies the period of time that Action is Unique for - in other words, the Player can play, at most, one of that Action in that period of time. For example, a Game Unique Action (e.g. "[Opening MC]") can only be played once per game. * Phase: An Action has one or more Phases in which it can be played. An Action which can be played in more than one Phase can be used in any Phase of the Player's Turn. Likewise, the use of a multi-Phase Action in one Phase does not preclude its use in another Phase if the Player so desires (although still being bound by Uniqueness above). * Winnitude: When a Winning Action is legally Played, the Game is considered to be Won. Rule 1.2.1 - Premeditation. The following is a list of valid Pre-move Actions: * [LV+] (Turn Unique) (Premove/Postmove Phase) This Action increases the Current Player's LV by . * [LV-] (Turn Unique) (Premove/Postmove Phase) This Action decreases the Current Player's LV by . Rule 1.2.2 - Movement in Still Life. A Player's Move Phase must contain one and only one Movement Action. The following is a list of valid Movement Actions: * [Moving to ] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) This Action moves the Current Player's Piece to the specified Station. It is only legal to play a Move Action if the following conditions are met: + The distance from the Piece to the named Station is equal to the Player's LV, by any Route. + The route taken does not pass through any Blocked Stations, nor is the named Station blocked. * [Wild to ] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) This Action moves the Current Player's Piece directly to the specified Station. It is only legal to play a Wild Action if the following conditions are met: + The Player's Piece is currently no less than three Stations away from any other Player's Piece (by any Route). + There is no Player's Piece less than three Stations away from the specified Station. + The specified Station is not less than three Stations away from Mornington Crescent. * [Pass] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) This Action leaves the Current Player's Piece where it is, while not affecting the Player's LV. Rule 1.2.3 - Post-Move Stress Disorder. The following is a list of valid Postmove Actions: * [Blocking ] (Postmove Phase) This Action allows the Current Player to block movement to or through a Station. If the Player plays more than one Block Action in one Turn, their next Turn must include the Movement Action [Pass]. * [Shunting to ] (Turn Unique) (Postmove Phase) This Action allows the Current Player to transfer eir LV to another player (known as the Shunted Player). The distance from the Current Player's Piece to the named Station must be equal to the LV of the Current Player. After the Shunt is performed, the Shunted Player's Piece is moved to the named Station, the Shunted Player is given the LV of the Current Player, and the Current Player's LV is reduced to zero. * [Opening MC] (Game Unique) (Postmove Phase) (Winning) This Action allows the Current Player to open Mornington Crescent and win the game. It can only be performed as the last Action of a Player's Turn, with the Player's Piece resting at Mornington Crescent and no other Players' Pieces within three Stations of Mornington Crescent. OK, I _think_ I've got it all covered, but it's been over four weeks since I started writing so there are bound to be holes. But it's a start. Likewise, to everyone I would say: please don't let your own personal ideas of how MC should be played interfere with getting things working. This isn't my idea of how it _should_ be played - that involves tokens and game time, among other things. We need to start somewhere, however, so here is _a_ somewhere. Have fun, Paul From unrealtor@u... Tue Jun 05 17:16:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: unrealtor@u... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 00:16:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 4921 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 00:16:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 00:16:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rly-ip02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.160) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 00:16:15 -0000 Received: from tot-tl.proxy.aol.com (tot-tl.proxy.aol.com [152.163.207.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id UAA28384 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer.unreal-estate.net (AC9E08D2.ipt.aol.com [172.158.8.210]) by tot-tl.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f560EtG32122 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010605190941.00aa90d0@s...> X-Sender: broker@s... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 19:10:34 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Apparently-From: DLwxAustin@a... From: David Lynch At 18.40 2001.06.05, you wrote: >Hello all - sorry I didn't get those boardgame-version rules up yet. >I'm working on revising them right now, actually, after some >additional testing. Plus I'm trying to make them readable to people >who aren't ultra-pedantic rules lawyers. ;) > >Which brings me to my question: is it more accurate to say "West >Acton is served by the Central Line", or "West Acton serves the >Central Line"? Either the former or "The Central Line serves West Acton." (Depends on whether you want passive or active voice.) The second one sounds odd. Stations don't usually serve lines. ~ David Lynch ~ ~The Crunch That You Crave~ unrealtor@u... "You have such a nice, soft buzzer here." -- Charles Nelson Reilly From dunx@d... Wed Jun 06 09:46:48 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 16:46:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 6056 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 16:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 16:46:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 16:46:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 14984 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 16:47:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 16:47:02 -0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:47:01 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106060947010M.00813@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis On Tuesday 05 June 2001 17:10, PaulWay wrote: > OK, you've shamed me into it. Here's an email I was drafting some time ago > on Late shift... Excellent work, Paul! All very interesting... comments from me later. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From gthoele@G... Wed Jun 06 11:52:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gthoele@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 18:52:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 75263 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 18:52:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 18:52:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gmx.net) (194.221.183.20) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 18:52:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 18703 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2001 18:52:15 -0000 Received: from pd90429d3.dip.t-dialin.net (217.4.41.211) by mail.gmx.net (mail06) with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 18:52:15 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:50:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gunnar Thoele Hello! My comments: >A Game of Mornington Crescent is played on a Map. By default, this is the >map of the London Underground (available at http://url). I think it would be wise for everybody to use the same map for each game, so include which revision of the LU map is used. >Some Rules may talk about a Route. This is the path taken along the lines >of the Map in exactly the same way as a commuter might travel on real Why not have "passenger" instead of "commuter"? >* [Blocking ] (Postmove Phase) > > This Action allows the Current Player to block movement to or through >a Station. If the Player plays more than one Block Action in one Turn, How is it unblocked? -- Gunnar From dunx@d... Wed Jun 06 14:31:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 21:31:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 74744 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 21:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 21:31:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 21:31:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 32366 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 21:31:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 21:31:44 -0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:31:43 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106061431430N.00813@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis Paul: Thanks for posting this. It's a very nice beginning. It's also considerably more fresh than what I was planning on doing, so I'll abandon what efforts I had begun (not that I could remember what I was doing anyway at this remove). Some comments, of course - many of these are merely pointing out the holes you mentioned, so apologise if they seem negative. Onward - > * is there something in Ruleset 0 about standard nomenclature for variables > and expansions - e.g. the use of triangle brackets, square brackets, > ellipses and so forth in 1.1.1? No, but there probably should be. The notation used in Rule 1.1.1 et seq is something I wouldn't have wanted to define up front, but if it's being used then it ought to be described. > * Possible confusion between 'Players of Mornington Nomic' and 'Players of > a Game of Mornington Crescent'? That's a distinction I tried to draw in Section 0, and it would be good to maintain. > * Also, after a bit of thought, removed the section on Tokens. Someone can > hardwire that in later. ... I understand why you've omitted them, but I'm not sure we can do without them. Maybe I just need to go cold turkey. My concern is how the game will play when all a Player has to do to win is move to MC. I suppose we're getting down to much purer tactics in choosing starting positions and so on, so it is worth trying a token-less game, just to see if it works. > * This is only a first approximation, while trying to enable a complete > game of MC to be played. Therefore there are a few things which I'd want > to see changed as the ruleset became more complex. But here it is anyway. As I say, as first approximations go it's a good one. > Rule 0.x.y - Game Start Proposals That's quite a tidy way of doing things, although I'm not sure it's appropriate. > Voting for a Game Start Proposal > requires at least three Active Players to vote 'For' it to Pass. That's a bit of a tortured sentence. How about: Enactment of a Game Start Proposal requires a Mandate of at least three Votes in favour. I was going to raise the issue of what happens if there are Votes against, or more specificially more votes against than for, but that's not relevant. Note that there is no need to specify that Votes be from Active Players because only Active Players are eleigible to Vote. > Rule 1.0.0 - Mornington Crescent Definitions > Each Game can be said to be Valid or Invalid. A Valid Game is one in which > all the play up until that point has abided by the Ruleset or Rulesets that > applied to that Game at the point of time at which the play was > made. Good definition. > While a Game is in progress, the Ruleset or Rulesets that apply to > that Game cannot be changed by ordinary Proposal. Sneaky putting this in the middle of paragraph on Game validity. :-) This rule seems superfluous and unhelpful; I can see what you're driving at (that is, trying to ensure that the rules don't constantly shift for a particular Game) but the effect once we have multiple Games in play at any given time will be to prevent change of any rules in common between any of those games until all games have finished. In particular, the core ruleset will be impossible to modify while _any_ game is being played. Rather puts the kibosh on a Long Game. Maybe that is exactly the effect you were looking for, but it is superfluous because the Mutability mechanism is intended to do the same job. What might work better if we wanted to freeze the options and variants during play would be to specifically exclude the core ruleset from this provision. The rest of the definitions in thie Rule seem sound. > Rule 1.1.0 - Starting the Game Fine. Wording needs tightening ("successfully Passed" is a bit tautological) but rules themselves look good. Particular kudos for the term "Holdings", BTW. > Rule 1.1.1 - To everything, Turn Turn Turn. Turn and Phase definitions seem sound. Might need to add an explicit forward reference to say where Actions are defined, though. > Each Player has a Piece, which represents their location on the Map. In > particular, it is considered to represent a real person waiting on the > platform for a train. Thus, a Piece can be said to have both a Station > location and be 'on' a Line. The Current Player's Piece moves only during > the Move Phase, although some Actions in other Phases might move other > Waiting Player's Piece(s). Nice analogy (metaphor? Illustration? Never quite sure of the differences...) I think it's fair enough restricting the Piece to only move under a Player's control during the Move Phase; in the old ruleset, the major variation on that behaviour was Straddling which is arguably an aberration anyway. > Rule 1.2.0 - Action and Reaction. > * Uniqueness: There are four states of Uniqueness States of uniqueness? I think scopes or ranges would be clearer. > * Phase: An Action has one or more Phases in which it can be played. An > Action which can be played in more than one Phase can be used in any Phase > of the Player's Turn. Likewise, the use of a multi-Phase Action in one > Phase does not preclude its use in another Phase if the Player so desires > (although still being bound by Uniqueness above). Good wording. > * Winnitude: When a Winning Action is legally Played, the Game is > considered to be Won. True, but I can't quite understand why it's being stated here. Also, is playing an Action sufficient always? Eg one plays Opening MC, then one moves to MC: the winning condition is not the playing of the Action, but the placement of the Piece at the goal station. > Rule 1.2.1 - Premeditation. > > The following is a list of valid Pre-move Actions: > > * [LV+] (Turn Unique) (Premove/Postmove Phase) > * [LV-] (Turn Unique) (Premove/Postmove Phase) I'm a little unconvinced by the layout here - first there's the statement that these are valid pre-move Actions, then the Actions listed are given as being both Pre- a_and_ Post-Move valid, then these Actions are not listed in the Post-move enumeration. Confusing. I can see what you're aiming for, I think, in saying to Players "these are the Actions you can play in this Turn Phase", but I'm not sure this Phased arrangement is workable if any Action can appear in more than one Phase (which clearly it might, leaving aside the question of whether LV tweaks should be or not). Maybe I'm just a table addict, but that might be a clearer layout. LV is never described, though - it's used both here and in the Move Action, and its meaning might inferred from those usages, but a one paragraph description would be helpful if only to ensure that everyone's inferrences are the same. > Rule 1.2.2 - Movement in Still Life. > * [Moving to ] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) > > This Action moves the Current Player's Piece to the specified > Station. It is only legal to play a Move Action if the following > conditions are met: > > + The distance from the Piece to the named Station is equal to the > Player's LV, by any Route. > + The route taken does not pass through any Blocked Stations, nor is > the named Station blocked. There's a problem here in that the definitions earlier stated that Pieces have both a Station and Line position, but the Move Action takes no account of that. I do like this Moving Action though. > * [Wild to ] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) Good clean stuff. There's no tie in between the three station range limit and LV, though. Indeed, although LV manipulation is described there's no limit on that manipulation: is mentioned, but could be as large or small as desired. I'm reasonably happy that, in these simple rules, there's no specific need to have defined Wild stations beforehand, but it might make Wild a bit too powerful not to have them. > * [Pass] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) > > This Action leaves the Current Player's Piece where it is, while not > affecting the Player's LV. Hmm. > Rule 1.2.3 - Post-Move Stress Disorder. > > The following is a list of valid Postmove Actions: > > * [Blocking ] (Postmove Phase) > > This Action allows the Current Player to block movement to or through > a Station. If the Player plays more than one Block Action in one Turn, > their next Turn must include the Movement Action [Pass]. I'll echo Gunnar's point about how should Stations be unblocked? > * [Shunting to ] (Turn Unique) (Postmove Phase) > > This Action allows the Current Player to transfer eir LV to another > player (known as the Shunted Player). The distance from the Current > Player's Piece to the named Station must be equal to the LV of the Current > Player. After the Shunt is performed, the Shunted Player's Piece is moved > to the named Station, the Shunted Player is given the LV of the Current > Player, and the Current Player's LV is reduced to zero. Is the Shuntee's LV unaffected, then? The wording ('transfer eir LV to another Player') implies that the shunter's LV is added onto that of the shuntee. > * [Opening MC] (Game Unique) (Postmove Phase) (Winning) > > This Action allows the Current Player to open Mornington Crescent and > win the game. It can only be performed as the last Action of a Player's > Turn, with the Player's Piece resting at Mornington Crescent and no other > Players' Pieces within three Stations of Mornington Crescent. Hadn't noticed that proximity condition on first reading; that's probably sufficient constraint in the first instance. > OK, I _think_ I've got it all covered, but it's been over four weeks since > I started writing so there are bound to be holes. But it's a > start. Likewise, to everyone I would say: please don't let your own > personal ideas of how MC should be played interfere with getting things > working. This isn't my idea of how it _should_ be played - that involves > tokens and game time, among other things. We need to start somewhere, > however, so here is _a_ somewhere. I think that's an excellent somewhere. Thanks again, Paul. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From dunx@d... Wed Jun 06 14:32:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 21:32:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 12950 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 21:32:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 21:32:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 21:32:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 370 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 21:32:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 21:32:54 -0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:32:53 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106061432530P.00813@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis On Wednesday 06 June 2001 11:50, you wrote: > Hello! > > My comments: > >A Game of Mornington Crescent is played on a Map. By default, this is the > >map of the London Underground (available at http://url). > > I think it would be wise for everybody to use the same map for each > game, so include which revision of the LU map is used. Good idea. Makes historical and multi-network games much easier to build in from day one. > >Some Rules may talk about a Route. This is the path taken along the lines > >of the Map in exactly the same way as a commuter might travel on real > > Why not have "passenger" instead of "commuter"? Much firendlier. > >* [Blocking ] (Postmove Phase) > > > > This Action allows the Current Player to block movement to or through > >a Station. If the Player plays more than one Block Action in one Turn, > > How is it unblocked? Good point. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From unrealtor@u... Wed Jun 06 16:19:10 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: unrealtor@u... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 23:19:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 16802 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 23:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 23:19:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rly-ip02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.160) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 23:19:08 -0000 Received: from tot-tf.proxy.aol.com (tot-tf.proxy.aol.com [152.163.197.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id TAA08812 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer.unreal-estate.net (AC9B98C1.ipt.aol.com [172.155.152.193]) by tot-tf.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f56NHjb26251 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010606171018.00acd0e0@s...> X-Sender: broker@s... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:17:41 -0500 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m... me.com.au> References: <0106051646520L.00813@azathoth> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Apparently-From: DLwxAustin@a... From: David Lynch At 19.10 2001.06.05, PaulWay wrote: >BTW: >* is there something in Ruleset 0 about standard nomenclature for variables >and expansions - e.g. the use of triangle brackets, square brackets, >ellipses and so forth in 1.1.1? >* I started adding Game Time into this and then thought 'no, keep it simple >at first...' Likewise with Action Groups (e.g. Can't play a normal move >and a wild move same turn: which of these is Turn Unique?) >* Possible confusion between 'Players of Mornington Nomic' and 'Players of >a Game of Mornington Crescent'? >* Also, after a bit of thought, removed the section on Tokens. Someone can >hardwire that in later. >* This is only a first approximation, while trying to enable a complete >game of MC to be played. Therefore there are a few things which I'd want >to see changed as the ruleset became more complex. But here it is anyway. > > >Rule 0.x.y - Game Start Proposals > >A Game Start Proposal is a valid Proposal type. A Game Start Proposal >contains the proposed Game's Name, the address of one of the standard email >lists currently not being used for another Game, and a list of Optional >Rulesets that will be used for that Game. Voting for a Game Start Proposal >requires at least three Active Players to vote 'For' it to Pass. {NB: is >there some official term for that requirement?} > >If the Proposal Passes, a new Game is Started by following the procedure in >Rule 1.1.0. If the Proposal Fails then it is discarded. > > >Rule 1.0.0 - Mornington Crescent Definitions > >This Rule contains an overview of the working of a Game of Mornington >Crescent. > >A Game of Mornington Crescent is played on a Map. By default, this is the >map of the London Underground (available at http://url). > >Each Game is represented by its Game State Document; this document is the >total summary of the current state of play of that Game, as well as a >summary history of play up until that point. Game State Documents are >contained in emails from the Players in that Game, and Documents posted >later supersede those posted earlier. > >Each Game can be said to be Valid or Invalid. A Valid Game is one in which >all the play up until that point has abided by the Ruleset or Rulesets that >applied to that Game at the point of time at which the play was >made. While a Game is in progress, the Ruleset or Rulesets that apply to >that Game cannot be changed by ordinary Proposal. If the current state of >play is such that it contravenes one or more Rules that apply to that Game, >then the Game is considered to be Invalid and play is returned to the >historic state that was most recently Valid. > >Once a Game has been Started, it also be said to be In Play or >Won. Winning the Game consists of playing one of the appropriate Winning >Actions in the Ruleset or Rulesets available for that Game. > >Games can be Buzzed by any Player, in order for em to point out an illegal >move that has made the Game Invalid, by posting a message with the subject >line containing the word "BUZZ" and pointing out what Rule or Rules have >been broken. Once a Game has been Buzzed, no further Play is allowed on >that Game until the question of the Validity of the Game has been sorted >out to the satisfaction of the Players of that Game. > >Some Rules may talk about a Route. This is the path taken along the lines >of the Map in exactly the same way as a commuter might travel on real >trains. It moves through each Station consecutively along the Route and >changes Lines only at Interchanges. A Route cannot include a 'double-back' >- a change of direction of movement on one line. For instance, moving from >Euston to Camden Town and back to Mornington Crescent would be considered >Invalid because of a double-back at Euston. > >Rule 1.1.0 - Starting the Game > >After a Game Start Proposal is sucessfully Passed, the Game is Started in >the following manner: > >1) The Speaker decides the Number and Name of the Game. The Number of the >Game is the next available integer higher than any other Started Game at >that point in time. The Name of the Game is taken from the Name of the >Proposal, and may be adapted by the Speaker to suit the style of the Game >being played and in general to make it conform to the aesthetics of >Mornington Crescent game names. > >2) The Speaker then decides the Order of Play. E takes the list of all >Players who voted For the Proposal to Start the Game and randomly assigns >them a position in the Order of Play. > >3) The Speaker then posts a standard Game State Document, with the Players' >Holdings listed in by their place in the Order of Play, to the list >designated for the use of that Game in the Game Start Proposal. > >Rule 1.1.1 - To everything, Turn Turn Turn. > >Play in a game of Mornington Crescent is broken up into Turns. During each >Turn, one and only one Player is the Current Player; the other Players are >Waiting during that Turn. Players follow one another in playing Turns as >defined in the Order of Play. > >A Turn is divided up into three Phases, which follow one another in the >order: Pre-move, Move, and Post-move. In each of these Phases, zero or >more Actions can be played; however, a Player must play at least one Action >in the Move phase of their Turn. Actions are listed in the Player's Turn >in the order in which they occur in the Turn. A Player's Turn appears in >the Game State Document as: > > ":" ([] ...) > >Each Player has a Piece, which represents their location on the Map. In >particular, it is considered to represent a real person waiting on the >platform for a train. Thus, a Piece can be said to have both a Station >location and be 'on' a Line. Nice analogy, but I'd simplify the station/line conundrum to just something like "A position is a station on a particular line, either on a train on that line stopped at a station or on the platform waiting for a train on that line." That handles both both a player changing lines at a station and not having enough LV to get as far as e wants go go. >* [Wild to ] (Turn Unique) (Move Phase) > > This Action moves the Current Player's Piece directly to the specified >Station. It is only legal to play a Wild Action if the following >conditions are met: > > + The Player's Piece is currently no less than three Stations away >from any other Player's Piece (by any Route). > + There is no Player's Piece less than three Stations away from the >specified Station. > + The specified Station is not less than three Stations away from >Mornington Crescent. Shouldn't we keep people from wilding to blocked stations? Also, my thought on another post-move action (inspired by recent situations on the LU), which would be new to the ruleset as a whole, but could prove of strategic worth: * [Closing *station* for Interchange] (Turn Unique) (Postmove Phase) This Action prevents all Players from changing lines at the specified Station. A Player may pass through or end their move at that Station when it is Closed for Interchange, as long as their departure from the Station is on the same Line as their entrance. It is only legal to play a Close for Interchange move if the following conditions are met: + The Player did not pass through the specified Station during eir turn and is not within three stations of the Station. + No Player currently occupies the specified Station. + No adjacent Stations are blocked. * [Reopening *station* for Interchange] (Turn Unique) (Postmove Phase) This action removes the Closure for Interchange of the specified station; players may resume using the specified Station to change lines. It is only legal to play a Reopen for Interchange move if the following conditions are met: + The Player did not pass through the specified Station during eir turn and is not within three stations of the Station. + No Player currently occupies the specified Station. ~ David Lynch ~ ~The Crunch That You Crave~ unrealtor@u... "You have such a nice, soft buzzer here." -- Charles Nelson Reilly From paulway@e... Thu Jun 07 03:50:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 7 Jun 2001 10:50:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 30718 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2001 10:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2001 10:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2001 10:50:21 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010607105011.EYIW12490.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:50:11 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010607204809.03641d20@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:50:08 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <200106061853.f56IrnK03541@s...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 04:50 AM 7/06/2001, you wrote: >I think it would be wise for everybody to use the same map for each >game, so include which revision of the LU map is used. Absolutely. But the general idea is that other games, which might use different maps, will specifically override this map specification. > >Some Rules may talk about a Route. This is the path taken along the lines > >of the Map in exactly the same way as a commuter might travel on real >Why not have "passenger" instead of "commuter"? I don't know - it's just a word. > > This Action allows the Current Player to block movement to or through > >a Station. If the Player plays more than one Block Action in one Turn, >How is it unblocked? Good point. I was thinking that Blocks would expire at the start of your next turn, having one full round's effect. Didn't put it in, though - one of those things you forget when you're drafting a large thing from whole scratch. :-) Paul From paulway@e... Thu Jun 07 04:20:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 7 Jun 2001 11:20:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 3694 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2001 11:20:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Jun 2001 11:20:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.51) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2001 11:20:51 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010607112049.FIEV12490.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:20:49 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010607205107.03646150@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:20:48 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <0106061431430N.00813@azathoth> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 07:31 AM 7/06/2001, you wrote: >Some comments, of course - many of these are merely pointing out the holes >you mentioned, so apologise if they seem negative. No, I don't mind - I'd rather people fixed them than just commented on them, but it's a good thing that they're pointed out. I don't consider that posting of rules mine any more - it's everyone's now, to shape as we wish, until it's good enough to agree on to set in stone. I also noticed I didn't include a sample of a GSD header. >No, but there probably should be. The notation used in Rule 1.1.1 et seq is >something I wouldn't have wanted to define up front, but if it's being used >then it ought to be described. I sort of agree; it's one of those tedious things it's good to have out of the way so everyone uses a common standard. >.. I understand why you've omitted them, but I'm not sure we can do without >them. Maybe I just need to go cold turkey. Well, neither am I to be honest. I wanted to get the basic basic framework in place so that we could start building - I got sick of months of inactivity while everyone waited for someone else to do the work. I want to add Game Time and Tokens in, but this draft was taking place in between work and I just didn't have the headspace to do it. >My concern is how the game will play when all a Player has to do to win is >move to MC. I suppose we're getting down to much purer tactics in choosing >starting positions and so on, so it is worth trying a token-less game, just to >see if it works. My concept of play at the moment is pure position - sure, first person to MC, but all you have to do is start three stations or less away from MC and you've got a one-shot win covered. Then it becomes real all-in wrasslin' action. Not that I like that idea - I like the quest for tokens to govern who's able/likely to win. But it was a start. >That's a bit of a tortured sentence. How about: > > Enactment of a Game Start Proposal requires a Mandate of at least three > Votes in favour. That was the word. Mandate. I was drafting it entirely without reference to Ruleset 0, BTW. >This rule seems superfluous and unhelpful; I can see what you're driving at >(that is, trying to ensure that the rules don't constantly shift for a >particular Game) but the effect once we have multiple Games in play at any >given time will be to prevent change of any rules in common between any of >those games until all games have finished. In particular, the core ruleset >will be impossible to modify while _any_ game is being played. Rather puts the >kibosh on a Long Game. Not necessarily. I'm envisioning two things here: firstly, games getting killed off (if necessary) or people racking up proposals on a currently frozen bit of ruleset when problems are identified. The "live with it" approach. Secondly, the fundamental game mechanisms should be a small capsule that is then expanded on by other rulesets - those expansions would be what gives games flavour and, since only those expansions would be frozen, others could be worked on while a game was still in play. Consider having Chalk Farm 84 v1.0 and Chalk Farm 84 v1.2 rulesets... However, maybe it doesn't need to be that way. I don't have any particular attachment to it - it just seemed like a good idea at the time. And, amusingly, I've covered the possibility of change in the previous paragraph anyway... >Maybe that is exactly the effect you were looking for, but it is superfluous >because the Mutability mechanism is intended to do the same job. Go Mutability, I think. >I think it's fair enough restricting the Piece to only move under a Player's >control during the Move Phase; in the old ruleset, the major variation on that >behaviour was Straddling which is arguably an aberration anyway. No; what about Shunting? Surely that is a move of a Waiting Player's Piece not during the owner's Turn? >States of uniqueness? I think scopes or ranges would be clearer. Scopes. >True, but I can't quite understand why it's being stated here. Also, is >playing an Action sufficient always? Eg one plays Opening MC, then one moves >to MC: the winning condition is not the playing of the Action, but the >placement of the Piece at the goal station. True enough. I like the idea of Actions having 'flags'. Either way, we need a place where winning is defined. >I'm a little unconvinced by the layout here - first there's the statement that >these are valid pre-move Actions, then the Actions listed are given as being >both Pre- a_and_ Post-Move valid, then these Actions are not listed in the >Post-move enumeration. True. Hmmmm. I originally thought they would only be premove actions, and then I realised I didn't have an example of a multi-phased action, so I modified them. What I want to get to is a table viz: Action | Phs | Uniq | W | Rule ------------+-----+------+---+--------- [LV+x] | 1 3 | Turn | | 1.... >I can see what you're aiming for, I think, in saying to Players "these are the >Actions you can play in this Turn Phase", but I'm not sure this Phased >arrangement is workable if any Action can appear in more than one Phase (which >clearly it might, leaving aside the question of whether LV tweaks should be or >not). Maybe I'm just a table addict, but that might be a clearer layout. Likewise. What I want is a table with the Actions compiled for easy reference and then the descriptions and rules governing each one arranged somewhere else more appropriate and useable. >LV is never described, though - it's used both here and in the Move Action, >and its meaning might inferred from those usages, but a one paragraph >description would be helpful if only to ensure that everyone's inferrences are >the same. Good point. Needs adding. >There's a problem here in that the definitions earlier stated that Pieces have >both a Station and Line position, but the Move Action takes no account of >that. Good point. What do we want to do about that? I like the idea of having a cost to change lines (my preference is for a time cost - 5 minutes extra per line change: that's how long it can take to move to a different platform at an interchange - over a token cost) but that doesn't fit in this current ruleset. >I do like this Moving Action though. So do I. Thank you, oh Seller of Snow, for thinking of it first! >Good clean stuff. There's no tie in between the three station range limit and >LV, though. Indeed, although LV manipulation is described there's no limit on >that manipulation: is mentioned, but could be as large or small as >desired. Gadzooks, I had just assumed a maximum of 3 increments/decrements. Amazing how paradigms shape you, eh? >Hmm. Well, while I agree with the idea of having a Passed player's LV drop to zero, I also couldn't think of a good reason why not to just leave it as it is - a Pass as a 'null move', rather than a 'full stop', if you will. >Is the Shuntee's LV unaffected, then? The wording ('transfer eir LV to another >Player') implies that the shunter's LV is added onto that of the shuntee. Transfer, not add: Dunx (LV 5) shunts PaulWay (LV 2). PaulWay gets LV 5, Dunx gets LV 0. Dunx could protect himself with a block... HTH, Paul From palnatoke@g... Thu Jun 07 04:44:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 7 Jun 2001 11:44:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 36960 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2001 11:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2001 11:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cicero1.cybercity.dk) (212.242.40.4) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2001 11:44:02 -0000 Received: from usr00.cybercity.dk (usr00.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C0E15FD22 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from richardmayhew (port10.ds1-boet.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.142.75]) by usr00.cybercity.dk (8.11.2/8.11.0) with SMTP id f57Bi0P37050 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:44:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from palnatoke@g...) Message-ID: <011701c0ef47$339393c0$0200000a@richardmayhew> To: References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010607205107.03646150@m...> Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:43:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" ... : >I think it's fair enough restricting the Piece to only move under a Play= er's : >control during the Move Phase; in the old ruleset, the major variation o= n that : >behaviour was Straddling which is arguably an aberration anyway. :=20 : No; what about Shunting? Surely that is a move of a Waiting Player's Pie= ce=20 : not during the owner's Turn? No contradiction here. Being Shunted is not under the owning Player's contr= ol. ... : >LV is never described, though - it's used both here and in the Move Acti= on, : >and its meaning might inferred from those usages, but a one paragraph : >description would be helpful if only to ensure that everyone's inferrenc= es are : >the same. :=20 : Good point. Needs adding. Age-old grump vs. LV: Is it the velocity of the line? Ole From paulway@e... Thu Jun 07 15:31:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 7 Jun 2001 22:31:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 59788 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2001 22:31:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2001 22:31:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.51) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2001 22:30:59 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010607223057.MIDK12490.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:30:57 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010608082933.0366a170@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 08:30:54 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <011701c0ef47$339393c0$0200000a@richardmayhew> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010607205107.03646150@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 09:43 PM 7/06/2001, you wrote: >Is it the velocity of the line? My way of looking it is that LV is your (i.e. your Piece's) velocity on the line. The practical definition is it's the number of stations you can move through and come to rest at. Make sense? Paul From dunx@d... Thu Jun 07 15:42:11 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 7 Jun 2001 22:42:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 93165 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2001 22:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2001 22:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Jun 2001 22:42:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 14627 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2001 22:42:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2001 22:42:31 -0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:42:31 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010607205107.03646150@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010608082933.0366a170@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010608082933.0366a170@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106071542310S.00813@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis On Thursday 07 June 2001 15:30, you wrote: > At 09:43 PM 7/06/2001, you wrote: > >Is it the velocity of the line? > > My way of looking it is that LV is your (i.e. your Piece's) velocity on the > line. The practical definition is it's the number of stations you can move > through and come to rest at. Line Velocity is, as Paul says, your Piece's velocity on the line, just as road velocity would be a car's velocity on the road or muzzle velocity is the speet of a bullet as it leaves the muzzle of a gun. The actual term 'Line Velocity' has been around a long time, certainly longer than I've been playing MC. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From palnatoke@g... Thu Jun 07 19:54:08 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 8 Jun 2001 02:54:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 98173 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2001 02:54:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2001 02:54:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cicero0.cybercity.dk) (212.242.40.52) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Jun 2001 02:54:07 -0000 Received: from usr02.cybercity.dk (usr02.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.82]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5088610297F for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:54:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from richardmayhew (port10.ds1-boet.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.142.75]) by usr02.cybercity.dk (8.11.2/8.11.0) with SMTP id f582s5M17712 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:54:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from palnatoke@g...) Message-ID: <018b01c0efc6$56914d20$0200000a@richardmayhew> To: References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010607205107.03646150@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010608082933.0366a170@m...> <0106071542310S.00813@azathoth> Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:49:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Ole Andersen" =20 : Line Velocity is, as Paul says, your Piece's velocity on the line, just a= s=20 : road velocity would be a car's velocity on the road or muzzle velocity is= the=20 : speet of a bullet as it leaves the muzzle of a gun. :=20 : The actual term 'Line Velocity' has been around a long time, certainly lo= nger=20 : than I've been playing MC. :=20 It does make sense - and I guess the antiquity of the expression wins out. Is it an original ISIHAC term? Ole From paulway@e... Fri Jun 08 11:53:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 8 Jun 2001 18:53:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 9228 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2001 18:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2001 18:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au) (203.164.2.51) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Jun 2001 18:53:54 -0000 Received: from co3020489-a.earthling.net ([203.164.137.42]) by mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010608185352.ZUQA12490.mss.rdc2.nsw.optushome.com.au@c...> for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 04:53:52 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010609045047.00a1d640@m...> X-Sender: pway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:53:48 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar In-Reply-To: <018b01c0efc6$56914d20$0200000a@richardmayhew> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010607205107.03646150@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20010608082933.0366a170@m...> <0106071542310S.00813@azathoth> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper At 12:49 PM 8/06/2001, you wrote: >Is it an original ISIHAC term? No, I don't think so. ISIHAC is primarily a verbal medium and, as such, has very few instances of play being more elaborate than saying the station name. Occasionally someone will say "It's inverse" or "I see" but I've never heard anyone even mention a manoeuvre name (although I have only heard a fraction of ISIHAC's total output). It probably comes from Delphi and/or York, and might even come from Mono or A.G.M.C. if you looked hard enough. It's been used three times; it's traditional now. :-) Paul From snowl@s... Sun Jun 10 02:46:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: snowl@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 10 Jun 2001 09:46:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 25945 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2001 09:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Jun 2001 09:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Jun 2001 09:46:02 -0000 Received: from [195.8.75.183] (helo=Massive) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 1591nE-0007Hl-00 for l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:46:01 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c0f192$07c0d0d0$b74b08c3@Massive> To: References: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:04:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Snow" PaulWay said: > OK, I _think_ I've got it all covered, but it's been over four weeks since > I started writing so there are bound to be holes. Looks good. I haven't time to study it in detail, but a surface scan didn't show any problems. -- Snow "most Java developers are more interested in creating a great looking object interface than a user interface" -Malcolm Davis From dunx@d... Sun Jun 10 07:41:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 10 Jun 2001 14:41:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 74302 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2001 14:41:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Jun 2001 14:41:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.95.221.101) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Jun 2001 14:41:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 13809 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2001 14:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2001 14:41:23 -0000 Reply-To: dunx@d... To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: grammar Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 07:41:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <9fjqlg+7f8l@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010606095142.03a00010@m...> <000601c0f192$07c0d0d0$b74b08c3@Massive> In-Reply-To: <000601c0f192$07c0d0d0$b74b08c3@Massive> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01061007413702.00850@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis On Saturday 09 June 2001 13:04, you wrote: > "most Java developers are more interested in creating a great looking > object interface than a user interface" > -Malcolm Davis I don't know who Malcolm Davies is, but he's got his head screwed on. I've been guilty of just this kind of user-hostile behaviour in the past, and it's an evil thing to do. -- Dunx A problem worthy of attack Proves its worth by fighting back - Piet Hein From riff10111@y... Tue Jun 19 14:00:48 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riff10111@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 19 Jun 2001 21:00:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 79095 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2001 21:00:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jun 2001 21:00:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hh.egroups.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2001 21:00:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: riff10111@y... Received: from [10.1.10.127] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2001 21:00:47 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:00:44 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: MC Boardgame Message-ID: <9goehs+e56a@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 478 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 12.46.236.114 From: "RiffRaff" Well, I've finally found the time to finish the first bit of the boardgame rules. It's in the files area at the Yahoo group, and comprises Part 0 (a general introduction) and Part 1 (The Teaching Game, or "Extremely Basic Rules") Next to come are the "Basic Rules", the "Finchley '49 Amendments", the "Knightsbridge '61 Amendments", and the "Limehouse '73 Amendments". And from there, who knows... Bug reports, opinions in general, etc., lemme know... Enjoy! --Riff From riff10111@y... Wed Jun 20 07:17:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riff10111@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 20 Jun 2001 14:17:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 64366 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2001 14:16:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Jun 2001 14:16:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hn.egroups.com) (10.1.2.221) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2001 14:16:52 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: riff10111@y... Received: from [10.1.10.132] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2001 14:16:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:16:50 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Boardgame update Message-ID: <9gqb8i+ua5m@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1491 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 12.46.236.114 From: "RiffRaff" Posted a slightly updated version of the previous Boardgame Rules (I'd forgotten to include info about how escalator links work). If you're interested, the biggest change over the MN rules that it's based on is that Line is only significant during your Move - otherwise you can be considered to be on any Line that serves the Station you're at. There are some other changes too, for example Tokens spent on Actions are placed on Stacks even if you're inside the Circle, although they must still be placed outside the Circle. And Black Tokens spent on Line Changes are placed on Stacks, and there's no Token Bonus for not changing Line. Oh, and there's no Bronze Tokens or possessions, or Game Time. (Although I'll eventually add Game Time as an optional rule.) It's been tested pretty thouroughly (up to this ruleset), and seems to work pretty well so far... The people I played it with all claimed to enjoy it (apart from one notable exception, but we practically had to twist her arm to get her to play a boardgame anyway). Once I can get the next level or two of rules written up, I hope to be able to do some real hardcore testing with the local University games club. If any of you guys'd like to try it out too, that'd be great... I highly encourage the construction of a nice big wooden board, it makes for great comments in public places like coffee-houses and student unions. Hopefully I'll be able to post some pics of mine eventually. Anyway, --Riff From riff10111@y... Thu Jun 21 12:23:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riff10111@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 21 Jun 2001 19:23:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 87996 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2001 19:23:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2001 19:23:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fg.egroups.com) (10.1.2.134) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2001 19:23:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: riff10111@y... Received: from [10.1.10.106] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2001 19:23:03 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:22:59 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Boardgame Rules pt 2 Message-ID: <9gthij+84l6@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 641 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 12.46.236.114 From: "RiffRaff" Okay, part 2 ("The Basic Rules") is up. "This is an update to the Extremely Basic Rules version of Mornington Crescent, to bring it up to the Standard Basic Rules as established by the 1932 International Mornington Crescent Society Symposium On Establishing a Set Of Basic Rules For Mornington Crescent." It includes the Dollis Hill Loop, Knip, Wild Stations, and some other stuff, including complete lists of all Actions available so far. (And the tables are pretty damn spiffy, if I do say so myself.) Also, I've posted another slight update to the Extremely Basic Rules (I put "Stack 'Em High, Sell 'Em Cheap" back in). --Riff From riff10111@y... Thu Jun 21 13:41:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riff10111@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 21 Jun 2001 20:41:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 85130 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2001 20:39:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2001 20:39:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2001 20:39:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: riff10111@y... Received: from [10.1.4.69] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2001 20:39:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:39:53 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: An Idea Message-ID: <9gtm2p+rd86@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 706 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 12.46.236.114 From: "RiffRaff" I've just had a great idea for an MC variant, based on the boardgame rules... I'm not far enough along to do a real writeup of it yet, but I think you guys might be amused: Monopoly Crescent. It would be played basically like regular MCtB, except you would use the little metal pawns from the Monopoly set, and each player would have the standard allotment of Monopoly money. The money can be used to buy Tokens, or if a Player should end eir Move on a Station that is represented on the Monopoly board, ey can buy that Station and charge rent to other Players who land on it. Stations can be built up with houses and hotels, etc... Anyway, just a thought that flitted into my head... --Riff From palnatoke@g... Thu Jun 21 16:46:38 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: palnatoke@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 21 Jun 2001 23:46:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 75567 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2001 23:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2001 23:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cicero1.cybercity.dk) (212.242.40.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2001 23:46:36 -0000 Received: from usr01.cybercity.dk (usr01.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.35]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019EE15FCE1 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:46:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from richardmayhew (port10.ds1-boet.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.142.75]) by usr01.cybercity.dk (8.11.2/8.11.0) with SMTP id f5LNkZn11974 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:46:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from palnatoke@g...) Message-ID: <04ae01c0faac$6e72a560$0200000a@richardmayhew> To: References: <9gtm2p+rd86@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: An Idea Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:45:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Ole Andersen" Riff wrote: : Stations can be built up with houses and hotels, etc... :=20 A bit of a killer, having to buy the whole Bakerloo before you can build at= Maida Vale... ;-) Seriously, it is a splendid idea. How to mimic the 'buy a series before you= may build' might make or break it. Hm. Ole -- Ole Andersen Br=F8ndby=F8ster, Denmark palnatoke@g... From riff10111@y... Fri Jun 22 05:12:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: riff10111@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 Jun 2001 12:12:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 23385 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 12:12:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 12:12:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hn.egroups.com) (10.1.2.221) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 12:12:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: riff10111@y... Received: from [10.1.2.55] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 12:12:28 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:12:27 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: An Idea Message-ID: <9gvcnb+7fsn@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <04ae01c0faac$6e72a560$0200000a@richardmayhew> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 706 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 12.46.236.120 From: "RiffRaff" --- In l-nomic-d@y..., "Ole Andersen" wrote: > Riff wrote: > : Stations can be built up with houses and hotels, etc... > : > > A bit of a killer, having to buy the whole Bakerloo before you can build at Maida Vale... > > ;-) > > Seriously, it is a splendid idea. How to mimic the 'buy a series before you may build' might make or break it. Hm. I think probably you'd just have to buy the two or three Stations listed on the Monopoly board... you'd run out of houses otherwise. :) Plus, you can keep the houses on the Monopoly board spaces, instead of cluttering up the Crescent board. My question is, what Stations would you put the Chance and Community Chest cards on? --Riff From kevan@s... Thu Nov 15 05:20:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 15 Nov 2001 13:20:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 95115 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 13:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2001 13:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.74) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 13:20:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.104] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2001 13:20:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:20:40 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Missing Home Page Message-ID: <9t0ff8+d5me@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 461 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 213.123.175.5 From: "Kevan Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis *cough* Hello again. What happened to the Mornington Nomic home page, then? It and every other ex-Xoom personal site seems to have disappeared from the Internet. A transient blip, or did Xoom's latest takeover drones decide that thousands of personal sites weren't really worth keeping? I've not really been paying attention. Disappointing, anyway. Do we have backups, at all? Kevan -- http://uncertain.org/~kevan "Breathe in, breathe in, breathe out." From dunx@d... Thu Nov 15 07:48:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 15 Nov 2001 15:47:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 4309 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 15:47:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2001 15:47:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO questmail.futurequest.net) (63.151.147.251) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 15:47:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 17533 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 15:49:24 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (63.151.147.101) by questmail.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 15:49:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 24639 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 15:48:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 15:48:18 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Missing Home Page Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:55:24 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <9t0ff8+d5me@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9t0ff8+d5me@eGroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01111507552401.00715@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis X-Yahoo-Profile: dunx_org On Thursday 15 November 2001 05:20, you wrote: > What happened to the Mornington Nomic home page, then? Eek! That's a bit poor. Still, it was free space, and it hadn't been updated for a wee while. I've seen no announcements, though. > Disappointing, anyway. Do we have backups, at all? Yes. I'll upload them onto my web server over the next few days. -- Dunx A man who is tired of London has seen sense at last. From dunx@d... Thu Nov 15 08:19:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 15 Nov 2001 16:19:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 33261 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 16:19:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2001 16:19:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO questmail.futurequest.net) (63.151.147.251) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 16:19:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 32185 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 16:20:47 -0000 Received: from six.futurequest.net (63.151.147.101) by questmail.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 16:20:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 4367 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 16:19:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO azathoth) (4.43.161.109) by x29.futurequest.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 16:19:41 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Missing Home Page Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 08:26:47 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <9t0ff8+d5me@eGroups.com> <01111507552401.00715@azathoth> In-Reply-To: <01111507552401.00715@azathoth> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01111508264703.00715@azathoth> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis X-Yahoo-Profile: dunx_org On Thursday 15 November 2001 07:55, you wrote: > > Disappointing, anyway. Do we have backups, at all? > > Yes. I'll upload them onto my web server over the next few days. Done. Most recent page state can be found at http://www.dunx.org/mornomic/ -- Dunx A man who is tired of London has seen sense at last. From paulway@e... Thu Nov 15 15:45:50 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 15 Nov 2001 23:45:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 5345 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 23:45:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2001 23:45:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au) (203.2.75.178) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 23:45:47 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (ocmax23-140.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.197.140]) by mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fAFNjid23221 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:45:45 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20011116104532.00a8fd90@m...> X-Sender: paul_wayper@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:46:10 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Missing Home Page In-Reply-To: <01111508264703.00715@azathoth> References: <01111507552401.00715@azathoth> <9t0ff8+d5me@eGroups.com> <01111507552401.00715@azathoth> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 03:26 AM 16/11/2001, you wrote: >On Thursday 15 November 2001 07:55, you wrote: > > > Disappointing, anyway. Do we have backups, at all? > > > > Yes. I'll upload them onto my web server over the next few days. > >Done. Most recent page state can be found at > > http://www.dunx.org/mornomic/ Yay! Let the joy bells ring! Let merriment and enthusiasm be unconfined! Let us finally get to play a game of Mornington Nomic! Have fun, Paul From kevan@s... Fri Nov 16 05:33:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 16 Nov 2001 13:33:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 68831 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2001 13:33:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2001 13:33:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.59) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2001 13:33:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.230] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2001 13:33:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:33:40 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Minimalist Dynamic Mornomic Message-ID: <9t34jk+q8bb@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5852 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 213.123.174.141 From: "Kevan Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis Hm, this was something that appeared in my skull on the train back from conversations with Wayper the other week - a radical offshoot (or even redirection) of Mornington Nomic, pushing it away from the traditional Nomic style and more towards the "Bartok" school (a quick, easy game where a new set of rules evolves from nothing, each time you play, with as much earlier-game historical reference as you feel like). It's all a bit vague and rough, but I'd rather post it for feedback than polish it to absurdity or get bored and lose it. That the language of the game makes it suitable for play in a pub or at MCiOS *without anyone noticing that it's a Nomic* seems quite a nice thing. And it embraces the issue of rules shifting beneath play, rather than being unsettled by it. I dunno. Thoughts, please. Now that you're waking up. Kevan ----- Summary of Concept ------------------ Rather than having a single complicated Ruleset full of rules that might not see use in a given game, we have one very, very simple Ruleset (covering basic movement and nothing much else) and develop a new set of Actions (and, by inference, gamestates and things) for each game. A mix of forging new Actions with spurious names, and bringing in favourite or staple ones from older games. >From this we can build up an archive of Actions, grouped by the games they appeared in. It then becomes possible to start a game of "Brighton Rules 1972", simply referring to the previous game of the same name to see which Actions it used. Basic Rules ----------- Before starting play, someone decides on the name of the Ruleset for this particular game. "Chalk Farm 1984", "Baker Street", "Ruttsborough '57", or whatever - you know the drill. Since each game will evolve different rules, this is useful as an archive title, as well as perhaps giving a theme to the game, and some flavour to the game conversation. Each Player then places their Piece on the board, at a Station of their choice (other than - of course - Mornington Crescent). Play then proceeds clockwise, starting with a random Player. During their Turn, a Player may make up to five Steps. A Step may either be a Move (moving their Piece one Station) or an Action (which affects the gamestate in a specific way). If a Player Moves to Mornington Crescent, they immediately win the game. A Player cannot Move to Mornington Crescent unless an Action has permitted it. Actions ------- If the Action has been played before in the current game (and if its costs are paid), it is automatically successful. If it has not been played before, it is only successful if no Player objects to its creation. Objections are made by pointing out that the Ruleset "does not allow it". For example:- Kevan : Morden. And I shall Counter-Flip PaulWay back to TCR, since he didn't move last turn. Dunx : Not under the 1948 Regency Rules you don't! Kevan : Oh, yes, my mistake. I'll just pay a Red and Shunt him to Wimbledon, then. {The Shunt action being used and defined earlier in the game, and accepted.} Objections can be worded in a leading way, if the objector likes the idea but wants to haggle about specifics ("I think you'll find you have to pay a Blue Token for that, under Regency Rules."). The first time an Action is played, any specific requirements of it should be stated in that play. ("I invoke Knip by spending a Podume.", "I shall claim a Token, being at an Interchange. I think I'll go for a Red one.", "I Shadow PaulWay to copy his Spin, since we are both at the same Station."). Unless otherwise specified, an Action is assumed to have no cost or requirement, and can be played at any Station (targetting any player at any Station). Where an Action targets a named Player, the "stored" version of that Action simply specifies "a Player". eg:- "I spend a Green Podume to reverse Dunx's Polarity." is "stored" in the Ruleset as "A Player may reverse any Player's Polarity, at the cost of a Green Podume." States ------ Actions can either have a one-off effect on some aspect of the gamestate, or "permanently" change it. The consequences of such permanent changes are known as States. For example:- "I spend a Metal Token to invoke Spink, which means Players can't collect further Tokens." "Since RiffRaff is at Morden, I shall bring the Morden Paradox down upon him, preventing him from Moving until someone else Moves there." Such States could be revoked by future Actions:- "Since I have no Tokens, I can break us out of Spink." "I invoke Whirlman's Backplay, being at Tottenham Court Road. All States are terminated." Basic Terms ----------- To save copious definition when invoking new Actions, the following basic terms can be used:- BLOCKING - Stations can be Blocked. If a Station is Blocked, no Player may Move to it. (But they can move from it, if they were there when it became Blocked.) eg. "I invoke a Bokanovsky Catastrophe, which Blocks all Stations adjacent to me until my next turn." SHUNTING - Players can be Shunted, by a number of Stations. The Shunting Player immediately moves their victim the specified number Stations along a single Line. eg. "I spend a Puce Token to Power-Shunt Ole by five Stations, to Victoria." WILDING - Stations can be Wild. If a Station is Wild, any Player may move directly to it as a Move. eg. "I play Pilkerton's Seventh Degree of Freedom; all Stations other than MC are Wild for the remainder of the game!" -- http://uncertain.org/~kevan "I play postal chess with a man who doesn't know me." From paulway@e... Sun Nov 25 17:45:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 26 Nov 2001 01:45:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 50856 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2001 01:45:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2001 01:45:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au) (203.2.75.251) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2001 01:45:02 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (ocmax32-177.dialup.optusnet.com.au [210.49.122.177]) by mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fAQ1ixA27353 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:44:59 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20011126122803.02058308@m...> X-Sender: paul_wayper@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:29:11 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Minimalist Dynamic Mornomic In-Reply-To: <9t34jk+q8bb@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 12:33 AM 17/11/2001, you wrote: >It's all a bit vague and rough, but I'd rather post it for feedback >than polish it to absurdity or get bored and lose it. That the >language of the game makes it suitable for play in a pub or at >MCiOS *without anyone noticing that it's a Nomic* seems quite a >nice thing. And it embraces the issue of rules shifting beneath >play, rather than being unsettled by it. Well, I'm certainly up for it. After initially being worried about a lack of rules, I actually think it will get things rolling much better than all our previous attempts after the Great Breakdown. So, Chalk Farm '84 anyone? Paul From kevan@s... Mon Nov 26 01:32:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 26 Nov 2001 09:32:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 6436 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2001 09:32:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2001 09:32:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.56) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2001 09:32:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.2.163] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2001 09:32:02 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:32:01 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Minimalist Dynamic Mornomic Message-ID: <9tt26h+6sfb@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011126122803.02058308@m...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 718 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 213.123.175.49 From: "Kevan Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis > Well, I'm certainly up for it. After initially being worried about a lack > of rules, I actually think it will get things rolling much better than all > our previous attempts after the Great Breakdown. Mm, I've got a feeling a bit of a 'core ruleset' might well evolve by itself regardless. > So, Chalk Farm '84 anyone? Good idea. Game opened in the Cryer Lounge; I suppose anyone can join in whenever they like, for now. (What happened to the Garden and Rushton Lounges, incidentally? Victims of Yahoogroups' friendly "post regularly or have a moderator who keeps an eye on things, otherwise we'll delete your group and all its archives" policy?) Kevan -- http://kevan.org "I gazed a gazely stare." From kevan@s... Mon Nov 26 09:32:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 26 Nov 2001 17:32:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 24608 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2001 17:32:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2001 17:32:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.63) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2001 17:32:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.120] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2001 17:26:18 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:32:38 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MDM Clarification Message-ID: <9ttubm+c1ug@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9t34jk+q8bb@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 306 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 213.123.175.49 From: "Kevan Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis > During their Turn, a Player may make up to five Steps. A Step may > either be a Move (moving their Piece one Station) [...] Having just confused someone with that sentence, I should clarify that I should really have written "moving their Piece to an *adjacent* Station". Tsk. K. -- http://kevan.org From paulway@e... Wed Nov 28 05:38:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 28 Nov 2001 13:38:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 85543 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2001 13:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2001 13:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au) (203.2.75.178) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2001 13:38:20 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (ocmax28-206.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.23.206]) by mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fASDcId07742 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:38:19 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20011127120734.02181dd8@m...> X-Sender: paul_wayper@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:08:41 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: Re: MDM Clarification In-Reply-To: <9ttubm+c1ug@eGroups.com> References: <9t34jk+q8bb@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 04:32 AM 27/11/2001, you wrote: >-- >http://kevan.org Patience? Bah. I expect a fifteen minute flash animation of "patience" (or even patients) bouncing attractively around the screen. *laughs* but then I haven't even got a domain. Where are you getting hosted through, Kevan, and what are their rates like? Have fun, Paul From kevan@s... Fri Nov 30 07:12:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 30 Nov 2001 15:12:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 38180 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2001 15:12:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2001 15:12:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.60) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2001 15:12:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: kevan@s... Received: from [10.1.10.102] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2001 15:12:21 -0000 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:12:18 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: kevan.org Message-ID: <9u87ki+fav2@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011127120734.02181dd8@m...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 749 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 213.123.175.49 From: "Kevan Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis > >http://kevan.org > > Patience? Bah. I expect a fifteen minute flash animation of "patience" > (or even patients) bouncing attractively around the screen. Alas, no money for a copy of Flash. And no time to use it even if I had. > *laughs* but then I haven't even got a domain. Where are you getting > hosted through, Kevan, and what are their rates like? I'm being hosted through a friend who couldn't think of anything better to get me for my birthday, some months ago. Dvorak's been shifted, as well. Did any Mornomickers ever try the map- based Crescent deck, out of interest? http://www.dvorakgame.co.uk/cardlist.cgi?mornington2 Kevan -- http://kevan.org "Hm, signature quotes don't look as good under a short URL." From jdamery@y... Fri Mar 15 08:03:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jdamery@y... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 15 Mar 2002 16:03:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 92602 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2002 16:03:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Mar 2002 16:03:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chiark.greenend.org.uk) (212.22.195.2) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2002 16:03:07 -0000 Received: from (allison.empire.pick.ucam.org) [172.16.22.65] (mail) by chiark.greenend.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16luAb-0005hI-00 (Debian); Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:03:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ysolde.ucam.org ident=jdamery) by allison.empire.pick.ucam.org (mailhost for ysolde.ucam.org) with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16luAa-000118-00 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:03:04 +0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: 'lo Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:03:03 +0000 Message-Id: From: Jonathan David Amery X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=105406190 'lo, is there anyone still here? Jonathan. From paulway@e... Fri Mar 15 08:07:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 15 Mar 2002 16:07:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 81217 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2002 16:07:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Mar 2002 16:07:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail018.syd.optusnet.com.au) (203.2.75.177) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2002 16:07:19 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (ocmax33-005.dialup.optusnet.com.au [210.49.99.5]) by mail018.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g2FG7GA24471 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 03:07:17 +1100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20020316030606.03e0a320@m...> X-Sender: paul_wayper@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 03:06:20 +1100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=11232507 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 03:03 AM 16/03/2002, you wrote: > 'lo, is there anyone still here? Just us rotting corpses... :-) Paul From dunx@d... Fri Mar 15 08:49:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 15 Mar 2002 16:49:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 19500 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2002 16:49:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Mar 2002 16:49:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.151.147.101) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2002 16:49:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 31376 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2002 16:49:30 -0000 Received: from x29.futurequest.net (63.151.147.29) by six.futurequest.net (63.151.147.101 ); 15 Mar 2002 16:49:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ext-023148.rational.com) (63.151.147.29) by x29.futurequest.net (63.151.147.29) with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2002 16:49:30 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:56:48 -0800 X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@p... X-Originating-Host: ext-023148.rational.com [130.213.23.148]; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:49:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mailreader.com v2.3.26 (2000-10-5) X-Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.5) Gecko/20011011, JavaScript: On Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis Reply-To: dunx@d... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24467995 X-Yahoo-Profile: dunx_org At Saturday, 16 March 2002, Paul Wayper wrote: >At 03:03 AM 16/03/2002, you wrote: >> 'lo, is there anyone still here? > >Just us rotting corpses... :-) And us mummified bodies. -- Dunx From kevan@s... Thu Apr 25 05:28:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kevan@s... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 25 Apr 2002 12:28:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 39110 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2002 12:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2002 12:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2002 12:28:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2002 12:27:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:27:34 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 287 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kevandavis" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.111.35 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7364789 X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis > >> 'lo, is there anyone still here? > > > >Just us rotting corpses... :-) > > And us mummified bodies. And us wraiths who are set "read on the Web" and only remember to check the archives every couple of months. Hello. Whatever happened to Minimalist Dynamic Mornomic, hm? Kevan From paulway@e... Mon Apr 29 21:32:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 30 Apr 2002 04:32:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 66412 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 04:32:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2002 04:32:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.139) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 04:32:43 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (ocmax32-199.dialup.optusnet.com.au [210.49.122.199]) by mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g3U4WeA27319 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:32:41 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20020430142806.04fe5b00@m...> X-Sender: paul_wayper@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:30:31 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=11232507 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 10:27 PM 25/04/2002, you wrote: >Whatever happened to Minimalist Dynamic Mornomic, hm? I hate to say this, but to me it seemed to almost immediately disintegrate. You're just leaving too much unsaid that _does_need_ to be said. The whole thing of 'illegal moves', for instance - affects play no end if you don't get at least _something_ set out from the start. I'd be up for another go at the original Mornomic concept, but that would mean I should volunteer to do something. Who's _actually_ _interested_ in having another go at it and would be prepared to do a bit of work (e.g. 1-2 hours reading and writing) on revising bits of ruleset? Me, for one.. Have fun, Paul From dunx@d... Mon Apr 29 21:48:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 30 Apr 2002 04:48:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 96383 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 04:48:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2002 04:48:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.151.147.101) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 04:48:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 16903 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 04:46:06 -0000 Received: from x29.futurequest.net (63.151.147.29) by six.futurequest.net (63.151.147.101 ); 30 Apr 2002 04:46:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dagon) (4.64.244.131) by x29.futurequest.net (63.151.147.29) with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 04:46:06 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:53:54 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020430142806.04fe5b00@m...> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020430142806.04fe5b00@m...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02042921535402.01914@dagon> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24467995 X-Yahoo-Profile: dunx_org On Monday 29 April 2002 21:30, you wrote: > At 10:27 PM 25/04/2002, you wrote: > >Whatever happened to Minimalist Dynamic Mornomic, hm? > > I hate to say this, but to me it seemed to almost immediately > disintegrate. You're just leaving too much unsaid that _does_need_ to be > said. The whole thing of 'illegal moves', for instance - affects play no > end if you don't get at least _something_ set out from the start. > > I'd be up for another go at the original Mornomic concept, but that would > mean I should volunteer to do something. Who's _actually_ _interested_ in > having another go at it and would be prepared to do a bit of work (e.g. 1-2 > hours reading and writing) on revising bits of ruleset? > > Me, for one.. Me for two, but not until I've finished moving house in a few weeks. Once I'm in my new abode I'll have more time on the train to play with things like that. -- Dunx Q: How do you make an Englishman apologise? A: Stand on his foot. From paulway@e... Sat May 11 06:44:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 11 May 2002 13:44:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 2867 invoked from network); 11 May 2002 13:44:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2002 13:44:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.172) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2002 13:44:45 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (ocmax30-106.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.21.106]) by mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g4BDigg26342 for ; Sat, 11 May 2002 23:44:43 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20020510080516.0336b768@m...> X-Sender: paul_wayper@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:14:38 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo In-Reply-To: <02042921535402.01914@dagon> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020430142806.04fe5b00@m...> <5.1.0.14.1.20020430142806.04fe5b00@m...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=11232507 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 02:53 PM 30/04/2002, you wrote: >Me for two, but not until I've finished moving house in a few weeks. Once >I'm in my new abode I'll have more time on the train to play with things >like that. You're moving house to a _train_? You Americans are so intriguing :-) But seriously, to my mind there are four basic sections that need roughing out: 1) Moves and Actions and Location on the Map. 2) Possessions and States 3) Time and play progression 4) Legality of moves There's also a meta-fifth: the Nomic, but AFAICS we can take the most recent incarnation of the Volume 0 Ruleset - that worked just fine IMO. The Definitions is something we all need to work on and correspond over regularly. Basically what I think we need to do is discuss a rough sort of plan from there, and then each of the people responsible will sit down and draft a full set of rules on that topic from there. Of course, mooting ideas and putting drafts up on the list is a Good Thing - no need for full Proposals just yet. But the emphasis is on coming up with a complete relatively playable ruleset on your own, and then seeing how everything integrates. Referring to previous games of MorNomic and Nomic is encouraged :-) What do you think of that plan? BTW, Kevan, since we're currently averaging one post per week or less on this, I think you can safely put this list back in your 'send me email' category... :-) Have fun, Paul P.S. Hope everyone's well. From dunx@d... Mon May 13 10:23:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dunx@d... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 13 May 2002 17:23:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 55468 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 17:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2002 17:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO six.futurequest.net) (63.151.147.101) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2002 17:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 15339 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 17:22:34 -0000 Received: from x29.futurequest.net (63.151.147.29) by six.futurequest.net (63.151.147.101 ); 13 May 2002 17:22:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ext-018070.rational.com) (63.151.147.29) by x29.futurequest.net (63.151.147.29) with ESMTP; 13 May 2002 17:22:34 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:11:30 -0700 X-Sender: xdunx-dunx@p... X-Originating-Host: ext-018070.rational.com [130.213.18.70]; Mon, 13 May 2002 17:22:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mailreader.com v2.3.26 (2000-10-5) X-Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.5) Gecko/20011011, JavaScript: On Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Duncan Ellis Reply-To: dunx@d... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24467995 X-Yahoo-Profile: dunx_org At Friday, 10 May 2002, you wrote: >You're moving house to a _train_? You Americans are so intriguing :-) Low blow, Wayper... low blow. >But seriously, to my mind there are four basic sections that need roughing out: > >1) Moves and Actions and Location on the Map. >2) Possessions and States >3) Time and play progression >4) Legality of moves Well, yes - that's certainly a good starting point. The ruleset from the last incarnation had the core of a good game in there, and adopting the same basic structure isn't a bad thing since it gives some shape to our thoughts. The caveat I would raise is whether this is the only shape our thoughts should be in, but then that's a separate discussion really. Indeed, given the way that games tend to work played, I wonder whether building automatic opponents might not be a bad plan... >There's also a meta-fifth: the Nomic, but AFAICS we can take the most >recent incarnation of the Volume 0 Ruleset - that worked just fine >IMO. The Definitions is something we all need to work on and correspond >over regularly. Agreed on Section 0. It's workable, and it's simple. The main thing I would focus on to ensure things keep moving is that there should not be one person who is the lynchpin and without whom all else falls to dust. I speak both as a tested and as a failed lynchpin - it's hard on the game, and it's hard on the individuals. Federated Speakership is necessary, not because leadership is unwelcome but because otherwise there is just too much work for one person to do. The rest, for the moment, is good - more anon. -- Dunx From paulway@e... Wed Jun 05 06:25:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@e... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 13:25:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 26283 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO power.connexus.net.au) (203.12.22.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 13:25:28 -0000 Received: from scorch.earthling.net (93-154.dsl.connexus.net.au [203.222.93.154] (may be forged)) by power.connexus.net.au (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g55DR1R51348 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:27:03 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from paulway@e...) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20020605201223.03353c60@p...> X-Sender: paulway@p... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:21:21 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MN: 'lo In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Paul Wayper X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=11232507 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 03:11 AM 14/05/2002, you wrote: >At Friday, 10 May 2002, you wrote: > >You're moving house to a _train_? You Americans are so intriguing :-) > >Low blow, Wayper... low blow. I'm sorry - call me a Victorian if it will make you feel any better :-) Seriously, I hope you and your beloved are happy and that the move is going / has gone well. >Well, yes - that's certainly a good starting point. Which is basically all I wanted it to be. >The ruleset from the last incarnation had the core of a good game >in there, and adopting the same basic structure isn't a bad thing >since it gives some shape to our thoughts. The caveat I would raise >is whether this is the only shape our thoughts should be in, but >then that's a separate discussion really. I think what I'm interested in - to lay my cards on the table - is being able to play a reasonably good game of 'Real' MC using a stable ruleset. In general I believe that this should be: A) Complex enough to allow a certain level of nift in moves - finding a clever combination of circumstances to aid you is what the game is all about. B) Unhurried - you shouldn't feel the need to belt out a move before your time expires. C) Elegant - Simple, powerful moves over complicated, improbable moves any day. D) Learnable - Few exceptions, more general rules to cover everything. I don't object to spending, oh, half an hour, say, coming up with moves. It would, of course, be great to have simple programs like Kevan's old move distance calculator and other programs to take the tedious counting of stations and stuff like that out of our hair. After all, true Crescent grand masters can tell you exactly how many left-handed stations between Whitechapel and Baker Street without even really thinking - we don't have that kind of practice. I also think it'd be good if we could construct a web page that could format the game in progress out of relevant text files. In general I'm not concerned with the actual physical representation of the game in play as far as 'illegal tampering' goes. I don't feel the need to encode the exact representation of the characters in the GSD and how it is sent and received in the rules. I have this great idea for a Perl script that reads text files and either presents the current GSD or allows modifications either by updating the 'numbers' directly or by encoded operations (e.g. teach it that 'Terminus' means 'give the player one gold'). >Indeed, given the way that games tend to work played, I wonder whether >building automatic opponents might not be a bad plan... How do you mean, 'automatic opponents'? >Agreed on Section 0. It's workable, and it's simple. The only thing that I'd essentially change is to make the first Nomic Week effectively infinite, and with Weeks declared arbitrarily from there. >The main thing I would focus on to ensure things keep moving is that >there should not be one person who is the lynchpin and without whom >all else falls to dust. I speak both as a tested and as a failed >lynchpin - it's hard on the game, and it's hard on the individuals. >Federated Speakership is necessary, not because leadership is unwelcome >but because otherwise there is just too much work for one person >to do. Absolutely. This is where I'd like to see both automated processes (scripts like the above) and self-run procedures (e.g. proposals where voting is collected and run by the proposer) put to good use. Anyone got any experience from other Nomics of ways in which we could reduce or eliminate the need for a single 'Speaker'? Have fun, Paul From johnradebe@g... Fri Aug 30 10:39:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: johnradebe@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@eGroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 30 Aug 2002 17:39:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 51405 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2002 17:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Aug 2002 17:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ok61222.com) (217.146.2.33) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Aug 2002 17:39:07 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:39:15 +0200 Subject: INVESTMENT/PARTNERSHIP X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "DR JOHN RADEBE" Reply-To: johnradebe@g... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public Dear Sir/Madam I am a south African and a senior employee of the South African Mining Corporation presently overseeing the activities of the corporation in the east Africa Sub Region . By this correspondence, I am representing the interest of a group of investors, based in South Africa.=20 I am soliciting your assistance as a foreign partner to handle on our behalf an investment interest, which is to the tune of Twenty nine Million, Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars (USD29.5M), for which anonymity on our part is of utmost importance until the conclusion of the transaction.=20 In hope that you will be disposed to participate in the transaction for which our interest and yours shall be well protected as a matter of principle and good-will, I expect to hear promptly from you, to enable me provide you more details.=20 Best wishes,=20 Dr John Radebe=20 From single_user_europe@j... Wed Oct 02 06:10:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: single_user_europe@j... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 13:09:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 12136 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 13:09:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 13:09:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gadolinium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.111) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 13:09:55 -0000 Received: from host62-6-98-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.6.98.26] helo=jon) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17wjDp-0001w0-00; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:07:25 +0100 Subject: FW: New ISP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------SZV40U6H4DN6PK" Message-Id: Bcc: Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:07:25 +0100 From: Network Associates X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------------SZV40U6H4DN6PK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Jefferis =20 Thank you for your email. If you require assistance with any of the McAfee.com Web-based = applications, please contact McAfee.com Membership Services. To contact McAfee.com Membership Services by phone, please call: = 1.408.992.8599 or 1.888.MCAFEE.1 (1.888.622.3331), Monday through = Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Pacific Time.=20 There fax number is 408.992.8598.=20 You may email Membership Services at clinic@m... or = subscriptions@m.... For billing issues, our email address is billings@m.... When replying, please include previous correspondence for our reference. Kind regards, Jillian Campbell McAfee Customer Service Representative Website: www.mcafee-at-home.com E-mail: single_user_europe@n... Fax: (+31) 55 543 4646 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jon Jefferis [mailto:jefferis@c...]=20 Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 11:01 AM To: single_user_europe@n... Subject: New ISP Dear Mcafee Customer Services =20 I have recently moved to a new ISP =20 I was jefferis@j... and now I am jefferis@c... =20 will this affect my Mcafee Membership? =20 Mcafee ID (probably) 14089928598 =20 Thank you for your time and trouble and I look forward to hearing from you. =20 Regards Jon Jefferis ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0E7CF.C000D360 Content-Type: text/html; ------------SZV40U6H4DN6PK Content-Type: application/x-msdownload; name="stuffe.xpr.pif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="stuffe.xpr.pif" [Attachment content not displayed.] ------------SZV40U6H4DN6PK-- From jefferis@n... Wed Oct 02 06:22:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jefferis@n... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 13:22:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 87431 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 13:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 13:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tungsten.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.81) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 13:22:38 -0000 Received: from host62-6-98-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.6.98.26] helo=jon) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17wjGB-00077S-00; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:09:51 +0100 Subject: Fw: your easyJet booking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------SKXMN7YJ65ZDOSK" Message-Id: Bcc: Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:09:51 +0100 From: "Jon Jefferis" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------------SKXMN7YJ65ZDOSK Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original Message-----
From: easyJet.com
To: Jonathan Jefferis
Date: 28 May 2001 15:44
Subject: your easyJet booking


>Thank you for using the easyJet web site to book your flights.
>We hope you enjoy your journey, and book with us again soon.
>
>Remember, easyJet is a TICKETLESS AIRLINE. All you need to
>check in at the airport is your CONFIRMATION NUMBER (which
>appears below) and, for international flights, your passport.
>
>Please read the important notes below carefully before
>contacting us with any enquiries.
>
>This email is your receipt, and is for your information only.
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>F L I G H T D E T A I L S
>
>
>CONFIRMATION NUMBER
> Your confirmation number is J35PBA
>
> IMPORTANT: You will need to provide this confirmation number
> at the check-in counter to receive a boarding pass for your
> flight. Passengers for international flights also require a
> valid passport.
>
> easyJet reserves the right to demand proof of identification.
>
>
>OUTWARD FLIGHT
> Flight no. 974
> From London Gatwick (LGW) to Geneva (GVA)
> Departing 09 Jun 01 at 15:45 local time
> Arriving 09 Jun 01 at 18:25 local time
>
>
> Flight numbers in the range 900-999 are operated by
> easyJet Switzerland SA
>
>
>PASSENGERS
> Graeme Jefferis
>
>
>BOOKING DETAILS
> Booked by Jonathan Jefferis using MasterCard
>
> Price information:
> Fare for 1 passenger:=20 ------------SKXMN7YJ65ZDOSK Content-Type: audio/x-midi; name=stuffe.xpr.pif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <17ipBXXkzHfMp> [Attachment content not displayed.] ------------SKXMN7YJ65ZDOSK-- From hasan10@g... Thu Jul 03 12:18:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: hasan10@g... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 77582 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2003 19:18:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2003 19:18:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 24.107.139.154.charter-stl.com) (24.107.139.154) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2003 19:18:13 -0000 Received: from ([213.174.39.223]) by 24.107.139.154.charter-stl.com id <2503814-92343>; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 20:15:34 +0000 Message-ID: To: Subject: Re: my new computer fpnjk kwkujjhqgksbo Date: Thu, 03 Jul 03 20:15:34 GMT X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="644CF5D2.7_FE1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal From: "Beatrice Plummer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public --644CF5D2.7_FE1 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 28621 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2003 23:13:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2003 23:13:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO foryou456.biz) (68.35.64.205) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2003 23:13:32 -0000 Message-ID: To: SHERRY Subject: Make it strong Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:27:53 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_CA1_BB48_1B4ED7E5.09C1EB1A" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Barb" Reply-To: "Barb" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------=_NextPart_CA1_BB48_1B4ED7E5.09C1EB1A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_CA1_BB48_1B4ED7E5.09C1EB1A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PEhUTUw+PEhFQUQ+DQo8Qk9EWSBiZ0NvbG9yPSNmZmZmZmY+DQo8UCBhbGlnbj1jZW50ZXI+ PFNUUk9ORz5BcyBzZWVuIG9uIEFyb3VuZCB0aGUgV29ybGQhPEJSPjwvU1RST05HPjxBIA0K aHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zdW5ueXdlYXRoZXIyNDUuYml6Ij48U1RST05HPkFic29sdXRl bHkgVGhlIEJlc3QgUGVuaWxsZSANCkVubGxhcmdlbWVudCBQaWxsbCBPbiBUaGUgTWFya2V0 ITwvU1RST05HPjxBPjxVPjxTVFJPTkc+IDxCUj48QlI+PC9TVFJPTkc+PC9VPiogDQpHYWlu IFVwIFRvIDMgRnVsbCBJbmNoZXMgSW4gTGVuZ3RoPEJSPiogRXhwYW5kIFlvdXIgUGVuaWlz IFVwIFRvIDIwJSANClRoaWNrZXI8QlI+KiBTdG9wIFByZW1hdHVyZSBFamFjdWxhdGlpb24h PEJSPiogUHJvZHVjZSBTdHJvbmdlciwgUm9jayBIYXJkIA0KRXJlZWN0aW9uczxCUj4qIDEw MCUgU2FmZSBUbyBUYWtlLCBXaXRoIE5PIFNpZGUgRWZmZWN0czxCUj4qIEZhc3QgUHJpb3Jp dHkgDQpTaGlwcGluZyBXb3JsZFdpZGU8QlI+KiBEb2N0b3IgQXBwcm92ZWQgQW5kIFJlY29t bWVuZGVkPEJSPiogTm8gUHVtcHMhIE5vIA0KU3VyZ2VyeSEgTm8gRXhlcmNpc2VzITxCUj4q IDEwMCUgTW9uZXkgQmFjayBHdWFyYW50ZWU8QlI+KiBGUkVFIEJvdHRsZSBPZiZuYnNwOyAN ClJYIFdvcnRoIE92ZXIgJDUwIHdpdGggYW55IDMgbW9udGggc3VwcGx5PEJSPioqRk9SIExJ TUlURUQgVElNRSBPTkxZIEJVWSA2IE1PTlRIIA0KU1VQUExZIEFORCBHRVQmbmJzcDsgQSAz IE1PTlRIIFNVUFBMWSBGUkVFISEhIQ0KPFA+DQo8UCBhbGlnbj1jZW50ZXI+PFNUUk9ORz48 VT5USEFUUyBBIDE1NSBCVUNLUyBZT1UgR0VUIA0KRlJFRSEhISEhISE8L1U+PEJSPjxCUj48 L1NUUk9ORz48QSANCmhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc3Vubnl3ZWF0aGVyMjQ1LmJpeiI+PFNU Uk9ORz5HbyBIZXJlIFRvIEdldCBBIEZyZWUgQm90dGxlIA0KVG9kYXkhPC9TVFJPTkc+PEE+ PFU+PFNUUk9ORz4gPEJSPjxCUj48QlI+PEJSPjxCUj48QlI+PEJSPjwvU1RST05HPjwvVT4N CjxQPjxVPjxCUj48QlI+PEJSPjxCUj48QlI+PC9VPg0KPFAgYWxpZ249Y2VudGVyPjxGT05U IHNpemU9MT5UbyBiZSByZW1vb3ZlZCBmcm9tIGZ1cnRoZXIgbWFpbGlpbmdzIHBsZWFzZSAN CjwvRk9OVD48QSBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnN1bm55d2VhdGhlcjI0NS5iaXovcmEucGhw Ij48Rk9OVCBzaXplPTE+R28gDQpoZWVyZTwvRk9OVD48QT48Rk9OVCBzaXplPTE+IFRoYW5r IHlvdTwvRk9OVD4gDQo8UD48L1A+PC9BPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+ ------=_NextPart_CA1_BB48_1B4ED7E5.09C1EB1A-- From drwilsonnogazi002@m... Thu Jan 08 05:27:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: drwilsonnogazi001@m... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 94338 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2004 13:27:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2004 13:27:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mrson2945.com) (81.199.6.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 13:27:03 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:25:56 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 81.199.6.35 X-eGroups-From: "DR WILSON NKEM OGAZI" From: "DR WILSON NKEM OGAZI" Reply-To: drwilsonnogazi002@m... m Subject: HELLO X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public from; dr.wilson nkem ogazi Federal Ministry of Aviation (FMA)Lagos, Nigeria. URGENT&CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL Dear Sir, It is my humble pleasure to write this letter irrespective of the fact that you do not know me. However, I came to know of you in my private search for a reliable and trustworthy person that can handle a confidential transaction of this nature in respect to our investment plans in real estate. My initial resolve was to discuss with you first and maybe obtain your consent before embarking on the actualization of my purpose as privileged and confidential. Although it is obvious that we have not seen each other but business is all about trust. I am Dr.wilson nkem ogazi,the Project Director of Federal Ministry of Aviation(FMA).We have an existing surplus of US$28,500.000.00(Twenty Eight Million,Five Hundred Thousand US Dollars belonging to myself and my colleagues in the Federal Ministry of Aviation(FMA)which we want to transfer into a trustworthy account outside the country for personal use and investment. This money originated from the aviation contract awarded by to my ministry to some foreign firms in the past, which we tactfully and deliberately made over-costing/over estimation of the contract value. The main works has been completed and commission.leaving the overrides amount lying unclaimed in the account department of my ministry since it has neither a beneficial nor file. Mutually, we have unanimously agreed to give 30% of the money to you, 65%for myself and colleague, and 5%for settlement of any expenses that may arise locally/international on the process of transferring the money into your account. However,we are reposing great confidence in you,bearing in mind that you will not sit on the money when remitted into your account.This is a golden opportunity of our life and we intend to establish good business/investment out of it in your country through your acceptance to work with us as an anchorman. For more details and to enable us forward application for claims to our Ministry, using your name and particulars as the beneficiary of the fund kindly contact me immediately on my my email Thanks While awaiting your urgent response. Best Regards. DR. wilson nkem ogazidr From drwilsonnogazi002@m... Thu Jan 08 06:08:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: drwilsonnogazi001@m... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 87874 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2004 14:08:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2004 14:08:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ok61899.com) (81.199.6.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 14:08:06 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:06:38 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 81.199.6.35 X-eGroups-From: "DR WILSON NKEM OGAZI" From: "DR WILSON NKEM OGAZI" Reply-To: drwilsonnogazi002@m... m Subject: HELLO X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public from; dr.wilson nkem ogazi Federal Ministry of Aviation (FMA)Lagos, Nigeria. URGENT&CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL Dear Sir, It is my humble pleasure to write this letter irrespective of the fact that you do not know me. However, I came to know of you in my private search for a reliable and trustworthy person that can handle a confidential transaction of this nature in respect to our investment plans in real estate. My initial resolve was to discuss with you first and maybe obtain your consent before embarking on the actualization of my purpose as privileged and confidential. Although it is obvious that we have not seen each other but business is all about trust. I am Dr.wilson nkem ogazi,the Project Director of Federal Ministry of Aviation(FMA).We have an existing surplus of US$28,500.000.00(Twenty Eight Million,Five Hundred Thousand US Dollars belonging to myself and my colleagues in the Federal Ministry of Aviation(FMA)which we want to transfer into a trustworthy account outside the country for personal use and investment. This money originated from the aviation contract awarded by to my ministry to some foreign firms in the past, which we tactfully and deliberately made over-costing/over estimation of the contract value. The main works has been completed and commission.leaving the overrides amount lying unclaimed in the account department of my ministry since it has neither a beneficial nor file. Mutually, we have unanimously agreed to give 30% of the money to you, 65%for myself and colleague, and 5%for settlement of any expenses that may arise locally/international on the process of transferring the money into your account. However,we are reposing great confidence in you,bearing in mind that you will not sit on the money when remitted into your account.This is a golden opportunity of our life and we intend to establish good business/investment out of it in your country through your acceptance to work with us as an anchorman. For more details and to enable us forward application for claims to our Ministry, using your name and particulars as the beneficiary of the fund kindly contact me immediately on my my email Thanks While awaiting your urgent response. Best Regards. DR. wilson nkem ogazi From drwilsonnogazi002@m... Thu Jan 08 06:51:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: drwilsonnogazi001@m... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 42706 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2004 14:51:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2004 14:51:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2now2327.com) (81.199.6.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 14:51:34 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:50:37 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 81.199.6.35 X-eGroups-From: "DR WILSON NKEM OGAZI" From: "DR WILSON NKEM OGAZI" Reply-To: drwilsonnogazi002@m... m Subject: HELLO X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public from; dr.wilson nkem ogazi Federal Ministry of Aviation (FMA)Lagos, Nigeria. URGENT&CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL Dear Sir, It is my humble pleasure to write this letter irrespective of the fact that you do not know me. However, I came to know of you in my private search for a reliable and trustworthy person that can handle a confidential transaction of this nature in respect to our investment plans in real estate. My initial resolve was to discuss with you first and maybe obtain your consent before embarking on the actualization of my purpose as privileged and confidential. Although it is obvious that we have not seen each other but business is all about trust. I am Dr.wilson nkem ogazi,the Project Director of Federal Ministry of Aviation(FMA).We have an existing surplus of US$28,500.000.00(Twenty Eight Million,Five Hundred Thousand US Dollars belonging to myself and my colleagues in the Federal Ministry of Aviation(FMA)which we want to transfer into a trustworthy account outside the country for personal use and investment. This money originated from the aviation contract awarded by to my ministry to some foreign firms in the past, which we tactfully and deliberately made over-costing/over estimation of the contract value. The main works has been completed and commission.leaving the overrides amount lying unclaimed in the account department of my ministry since it has neither a beneficial nor file. Mutually, we have unanimously agreed to give 30% of the money to you, 65%for myself and colleague, and 5%for settlement of any expenses that may arise locally/international on the process of transferring the money into your account. However,we are reposing great confidence in you,bearing in mind that you will not sit on the money when remitted into your account.This is a golden opportunity of our life and we intend to establish good business/investment out of it in your country through your acceptance to work with us as an anchorman. For more details and to enable us forward application for claims to our Ministry, using your name and particulars as the beneficiary of the fund kindly contact me immediately on my my email Thanks While awaiting your urgent response. Best Regards. DR. wilson nkem ogazi From hma_2000@s... Thu Jan 08 11:06:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: hma2000@f... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 53721 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2004 19:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2004 19:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2now1630.com) (81.199.6.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 19:06:21 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:03:37 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 81.199.6.35 X-eGroups-From: "Hajia Maryam Abacha" From: "Hajia Maryam Abacha" Reply-To: hma_2000@s... Subject: Please Do Not Ignore This X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public Dear Friend , =20 I am Mrs. Maryam Abacha, the widow of the late Gen. Sanni Abacha=20 former Nigerian Military Head of State who died mysteriously as a=20 result of Cardiac Arrest. Since after my husband=92s death my family is und= er=20 restriction of movement and that not withstanding, we are being=20 molested, policed and our Bank Account both here and abroad are being froze= n=20 by the Nigerian Civilian Government.=20 Furthermore, my elder son is in detention by the Nigerian Government=20 for more interrogation about my husband=92s assists and some vital=20 documents. Following the recent discovery of my husband=92s Bank Account by= the=20 Nigerian Government with Swiss Bank in which the huge sum of=20 US$700Million and DM450Milllion was logged. I therefore decided to contact = you in=20 confidence that I was able to move out the sum of US$30Million Dollars,=20 which was secretly lodged in a trunk box and deposited with a Security=20 Company as materials of Inheritance.=20 I therefore personally, appeal to you seriously and religiously for=20 your urgent assistance to move this money into your country where I=20 believe it will be safe since I cannot leave the country due to the=20 restriction of movement imposed on the members of my family by the Nigerian= Government.=20 You can also contact me through my family attorney Barrister Williams Smith= (SAN) on his e-mail address:barr_wsmith@s... and my lawyer shall arrang= e with you for a face to face meeting outside Nigerian, in order to liaise = with you toward effective completion of this transaction.=20 However, arrangements have been put in place to move this money out of=20 the country in a secret vault through a diplomatic security company, as=20 soon as you indicate your interest, forward to my lawyer your Telephone=20 Number, Fax Number and your Postal Address so that he can send to you=20 the Certificate of Deposit and other necessary documents, so that you=20 can help to claim the luggage.=20 Conclusively, we have agreed to offer you 30% of the total sum while=20 70% is to be held on trust by you until we decide on a suitable business=20 investment in your country subsequent to our free movement by the=20 Nigerian Government.=20 Please reply urgently and treat with absolute confidentiality and=20 sincerity.=20 Yours Truly,=20 Hajia Maryam abacha(Mrs.)=20 NB:To proove the authenticity of my story i will want you to go through=20 the links below. 1:http://www.transnationale.org/anglais/sources/tiersmonde/dirigeants__abac= ha.htm=20 2:http://allafrica.com/stories/200203180074.html=20 3:http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/27/swiss.htm =20 From atisele44@f... Fri Jan 09 03:53:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: atiseleru@f... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 54804 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2004 11:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jan 2004 11:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO emztd2104.com) (81.199.6.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 11:53:00 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:51:57 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 81.199.6.35 X-eGroups-From: "MR. ATISELE RAFUA" From: "MR. ATISELE RAFUA" Reply-To: atisele44@f... Subject: URGENT X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public FROM THE DESK OF MR ATISELE RAFUA AFRICAN CONTINENTAL BANK PLC. LAGOS,NIGERIA. DEAR SIR/MADAM, I AM MR.ATISELE RAFUA THE MANAGER, BILLS AND EXCHANGE THE FOREIGN REMITTANCE DEPARTMENT OF THE AFRICAN CONTINENTAL BANK = PLC (ACB). I AM WRITING THIS LETTER TO ASK FOR YOUR SUPPORT AND COOPERATION= TO CARRY OUT THIS BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY IN MY DEPARTMENT.=20 WE DISCOVERED AN ABANDONED SUM OF $15,500,000.00 (FIFTEEN MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS ONLY) IN AN ACCOUNT THAT BELONGS TO = ONE OF OUR FOREIGN CUSTOMERS LATE ENGR BRIAN LLOYED SMITH WHO DIED ALONG WI= TH HIS ENTIRE FAMILY OF A WIFE AND TWO CHILDREN IN NOVEMBER 1997 IN A PLANE= CRASH. SINCE WE HEARD OF HIS DEATH, WE HAVE BEEN EXPECTING HIS NEXT OF KIN= TO COME OVER AND PUT CLAIMS FOR HIS MONEY AS THE HEIR,BECAUSE WE CANNOT RE= LEASE THE FUND FROM HIS ACCOUNT UNLESS SOMEONE APPLIES FOR CLAIM AS THE NEX= T-OF-KIN TO THE DECEASED AS INDICATED IN OUR BANKING GUIDELINES. UNFORTUNATELY, NEITHER THEIR FAMILY MEMBER NOR DISTANTRELATIVE HAS EVER APPEARED TO CLAIM THE SAID FUND. UPON THIS DISCOVE= RY,I AND OTHER OFFICIALS IN MY DEPARTMENT HAVE AGREED TO MAKE BUSINESS WITH= YOU AND RELEASE THE TOTAL AMOUNT INTO YOUR ACCOUNT AS THE HEIR OF THE FUND= SINCE NO ONE CAME FOR IT OR DISCOVERED HE MAINTAINED ACCOUNT WITH OUR BANK= , OTHERWISE THE FUND WILL BE RETURNED TO THE BANKS TREASURY AS UNCLAIMED FU= ND.=20 WE HAVE AGREED THAT OUR RATIO OF SHARING WILL BE AS STATED THUS; 30 % FOR Y= OU AS FOREIGN PARTNER, 60 % FOR US THE OFFICIALS IN MY DEPARTMENT AND 10% F= OR THE SETTLEMENT OF ALL LOCAL AND FOREIGN EXPENCES INCURRED BY US AND YOU = DURING THE COURSE OF THIS BUSINESS.UPON THE SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF THIS T= RANSFER, I AND ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES WILL COME TO YOUR COUNTRY AND MIND OUR = SHARE. IT IS FROM OUR 60 % WE INTEND TO IMPORT AGRICULTURAL MACHINERIES INT= O MY COUNTRY AS A WAY OF RECYCLING THE FUND.=20 TO COMMENCE THIS TRANSACTION, WE REQUIRE YOU TO IMMEDIATELY INDICATE YOUR I= NTEREST BY A RETURN E-MAIL ENCLOSE YOUR PRIVATE CONTACT TELEPHONE NUMBER, F= AX NUMBER FULL NAME AND ADDRESS AND YOUR DESIGNATED BANK COORDINATES TO ENA= BLE US FILE LETTER OF CLAIM TO THE APPROPRIATE DEPARTMENTS FOR NECESSARY AP= PROVALS BEFORE THE TRANSFER CAN BE MADE.=20 NOTE ALSO, THIS TRANSACTION MUST BE KEPT STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL BECAUSE OF I= T'S NATURE I LOOK FORWARD TO RECEIVING YOUR PROMPT RESPONSE. DIRECT YOUR REPLY TO : REGARDS,=20 MR. ATISELE RAFUA AFRICAN CONTINENTAL BANK PLC From ezrdx42vxn@w... Wed Apr 28 05:51:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ezrdx42vxn@w... 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--59000925781233147910-- From lmivo50iqkg@t... Wed Apr 28 10:50:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lmivo50iqkg@t... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 51726 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2004 17:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Apr 2004 17:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 201-0-12-217.dsl.telesp.net.br) (201.0.12.217) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2004 17:50:52 -0000 Received: from 87.128.136.8 by 201.0.12.217; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:45:40 -0600 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:45:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3317.4794 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="77493981854548636" Message-ID: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 201.0.12.217 From: "Dagmar Dorothea" Reply-To: "Dagmar Dorothea" Subject: Little Bro Make U Shy To Screw?? Hehe allotrope X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public --77493981854548636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit keeshond cession araneidal trigeminal edematous ruins beati sternness contently rosaceous ambulation agrypnia wick tightrope defeatism confirm karat fondre crofter shanghai friar abba roisterer commander jailor rascal neglectful prester ozonium shutter chore abbey fraud hooded sieve rembrandt wight understate cellblock hypertext sidewalk mutely --77493981854548636 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wynd newark uneaten scaphopod coverlet tisiphone subtrahend inelastic viewpoint mutinus glasgow . seen fluxmeter particular phlebitis harp fang malcom meiosis . retinene tiredly farfamed distend chicote aversion . haptic sculptress mussulman welladay primaries ambitious peduncle relieve reigh shudder connexion autogenous paste . cowrie thymol taricha .
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--7597333298361142448-- From abyeaz40vtjki@c... Thu Apr 29 18:20:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: abyeaz40vtjki@c... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 51838 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2004 01:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2004 01:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 66.218.66.217) (211.117.145.154) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2004 01:20:10 -0000 Received: from 161.205.187.223 by 211.117.145.154; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 07:12:20 +0500 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 03:20:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5227.7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="280965508775317" Message-ID: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 211.117.145.154 From: "Edyth Yuko" Reply-To: "Edyth Yuko" Subject: Great Prescriiption By American Pharmacy sassaby X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public --280965508775317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dietetics stockade stroke westwards filial occipital tallyho gulo lagothrix glimmer swearword solanum triphthong tienoscope hieratic retaining amalgam equalize wooer piscem clannish bella shallows acrobatic aspergill bluefish myosin drogheda trow terror --280965508775317 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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--280965508775317-- From yahoo@k... Fri Apr 30 01:25:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: yahoo@k... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13001 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2004 08:25:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2004 08:25:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2004 08:25:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Apr 2004 08:25:19 -0000 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:25:18 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 291 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.67 From: "Kevan Davis" X-Originating-IP: 212.74.19.173 Subject: Re: Great Prescriiption By American Pharmacy sassaby X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110898565 X-Yahoo-Profile: kevandavis > dietetics stockade stroke westwards filial Not on an anti-clockwise Circle Line, you don't. It is quite handy that these spammers are keeping the Mornington Nomic archive "active", though - Yahoo start threatening to delete them if they don't get any traffic for six months... Kevan From paulway@m... Fri Apr 30 01:35:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: paulway@m... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2673 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2004 08:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2004 08:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost.netspeed.com.au) (203.31.48.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2004 08:35:49 -0000 Received: from tangram.netspeed.com.au (unverified [203.34.140.20]) by netspeed.com.au (SurgeMail 1.8h) with ESMTP id 30793340 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:39:00 +1000 Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20040430183257.02b9c060@m...> X-Sender: paulway@m... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:35:09 +1000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: paulway Domain netspeed.com.au X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 203.31.48.33 From: Paul Wayper Subject: Re: MN: Re: Great Prescriiption By American Pharmacy sassaby X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178448737 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulway.geo At 08:25 AM 30/04/2004 +0000, you wrote: > > dietetics stockade stroke westwards filial > >Not on an anti-clockwise Circle Line, you don't. But I thought e'd declared a Minnerman Qualification, which negates any - oh, of course, he used the word "filial" not "brotherly". Sorry. Pity, he almost had you in Spoon there Kev. >It is quite handy that these spammers are keeping the Mornington Nomic >archive "active", though - Yahoo start threatening to delete them if they >don't get any traffic for six months... Yes, anyone for a game? PaulWay : Earl's Court (Pinkerton's Opening) --------------------------------------------------------------------- SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames. Report all bugs to the author. SigClean is FreeWare. (c)1998-2003 PJW From wyfxlj0fm@n... Sat May 01 16:25:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: wyfxlj0fm@n... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 35924 invoked from network); 1 May 2004 23:25:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2004 23:25:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ool-44c064e5.dyn.optonline.net) (68.192.100.229) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2004 23:25:12 -0000 Received: from 209.166.4.158 by 68.192.100.229; Sun, 02 May 2004 06:16:05 +0600 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 18:19:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.2324.3340 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="04146985008353387" Message-ID: <3r2zxw1n96ide-p7w-k0wyfxlj0fm@n...> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.192.100.229 From: "Coralee Adriana" Reply-To: "Coralee Adriana" Subject: U Must Be Angry Why Ur Little Bro So Small? quahog X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public --04146985008353387 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit something birthing poorwill almandine arability announced jetblack remake poppycock sawwort confluent musketry abdication beady covetous central primness deferral barium banking pretrial marte surfer bedwarf bioscope proto cowl nauseous wrath offices contour acrobates pickled untraced --04146985008353387 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit touchd phantasy bidental vindicator nominalism homogenize pointless octameter ambystoma solecism pterocarya crowbar ideograph sinai . fluidram clement hypopitys .
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------------------------- We ship to all countries ---------------------------

Here is what you can expect from taking CIALAPREN:

WEEK 1-3: Your DICCKY will experience greater and longer lasting erec--tion and a noticeable increase in thickness
WEEK 4-8: Your DICCKY will have grown in lenngth and will possess much more thickness in both ere--ct and flaccid states
WEEK 9+: Your DICCKY will have taken on a new body, not just longer and thicker, but much harder & healthier


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Screw ur lover like never before

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--04146985008353387-- From icgki9vubcr@c... Sun May 02 02:09:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: icgki9vubcr@c... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 88683 invoked from network); 2 May 2004 09:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2004 09:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c-24-21-208-45.client.comcast.net) (24.21.208.45) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2004 09:09:51 -0000 Received: from 201.185.96.204 by 24.21.208.45; Sun, 02 May 2004 09:11:48 -0100 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 07:10:48 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.6320.5964 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="8330207761050605" Message-ID: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.21.208.45 From: "Tonja Julieann" Reply-To: "Tonja Julieann" Subject: what r u up to these days? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public --8330207761050605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit pichi vide glossily chaffinch severalty betoken reflexion trait melanitta intact alterative descension debacle exception friday unwiped moonflower stirringly headmaster --8330207761050605 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit washcloth harquebuss excitingly emily sphyraena sialia protecting firearms tales anopia arcadic totemic institute . madison moraceae leid empathic masjid crudeness cognee bunas prepongr throne . network stately destroy utopist bambuseae . illspent margate condyle ripened isotonic . melange obtrude piton theistic epulation philosophy pensionary ereshkigal lime dukes congruent confuting .
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Your needed soffttwares at Rock Bottom prri ce!
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Adobbe Creative Suite (5 cds)
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3D Studio Max 6.0 (3 cds)
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Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited
AutoCAD 2005
Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2005
Cakewalk Sonar 3 Producer Edition (3 cds)
Canopus ProCoder 1.5 (1 cd)
Corel Draw 12 Graphic Suite (3 cds)
Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Flash MX 2004 v7.0 Professional
Macromedia Studio MX 2004 (1 cd)
Micros0ft Money 2004 Deluxe (1 cd)
Micros0ft Office 2003 System Professional (5 cds)
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Micros0ft Project 2002 Pro
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Nort0n SystemWorks Pro 2004 (1 cd)
OmniPage 14 Office (1 cd)
Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd)
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----9124509702678590-- From koqhv1zpcm@t... Mon Aug 16 07:30:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: koqhv1zpcm@t... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 81702 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2004 14:30:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Aug 2004 14:30:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 66.218.66.216) (221.167.28.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 2004 14:30:18 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com, robinsoncurr@egroups.com, freeservers@egroups.com, allthingsannerice@egroups.com Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:22:16 +0500 Message-ID: Received: fqnzd-d0cw4y.commitspeaking.com (cihvvdl [192.253.254.1]) by thus.differencepiece.com (2.13.0/0.81.8) with ESMTP id QH8ET3WQR0QL for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:20:16 -0700 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2351.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--08364190815484505" X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 221.167.28.40 From: "Babette Idell" Reply-To: "Babette Idell" Subject: Fast Download Ur Needed Softwares Now, Cheaapest Popular Softwares leaving X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ----08364190815484505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit written twelve where nobody ----08364190815484505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Your needed soffttwares at Rock Bottom prri ce!
- What you bought previously was go to shop & buuyy a WIND0WS XP Pro that comes with a BOX & serial number & the manual cosst 299.00

- What you will get from us is The full W1ND0WS XP Pro sofftwaree & serial number. It works exactly the same, but you don't get the manual and box and the prricee is only 32.00 . That is a savviing of 254.00

So0ftware title Our L0W Priicce
Adobbe Creative Suite (5 cds)
Adobbe PhotooShop CS 8.0 (1 cd)
3D Studio Max 6.0 (3 cds)
Adobbe Premiere Pro 7.0 (1 cd)
Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited
AutoCAD 2005
Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2005
Cakewalk Sonar 3 Producer Edition (3 cds)
Canopus ProCoder 1.5 (1 cd)
Corel Draw 12 Graphic Suite (3 cds)
Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Flash MX 2004 v7.0 Professional
Macromedia Studio MX 2004 (1 cd)
Micros0ft Money 2004 Deluxe (1 cd)
Micros0ft Office 2003 System Professional (5 cds)
Micros0ft Office 2003 Multilingual User Interface Pack (2 cds)
Micros0ft Project 2002 Pro
Micros0ft Publisher XP 2002
Micros0ft Visio for Enterprise Architects 2003
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Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Professional
Nort0n Antivirus 2004 Pro
Nort0n SystemWorks Pro 2004 (1 cd)
OmniPage 14 Office (1 cd)
Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd)
PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire Datecode 2003451 (3 cds)
PowerQuest Drive Image 7.01 Multilanguage (1 cd)
Ulead DVD Workshop 2.0
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and MORE soft wares - have 850 soft ware titles on our site for u 		55.00
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Your needed soffttwares at Rock Bottom prri ce!
- What you bought previously was go to shop & buuyy a WIND0WS XP Pro that comes with a BOX & serial number & the manual cosst 299.00

- What you will get from us is The full W1ND0WS XP Pro sofftwaree & serial number. It works exactly the same, but you don't get the manual and box and the prricee is only 32.00 . That is a savviing of 254.00

So0ftware title Our L0W Priicce
Adobbe Creative Suite (5 cds)
Adobbe PhotooShop CS 8.0 (1 cd)
3D Studio Max 6.0 (3 cds)
Adobbe Premiere Pro 7.0 (1 cd)
Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited
AutoCAD 2005
Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2005
Cakewalk Sonar 3 Producer Edition (3 cds)
Canopus ProCoder 1.5 (1 cd)
Corel Draw 12 Graphic Suite (3 cds)
Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Flash MX 2004 v7.0 Professional
Macromedia Studio MX 2004 (1 cd)
Micros0ft Money 2004 Deluxe (1 cd)
Micros0ft Office 2003 System Professional (5 cds)
Micros0ft Office 2003 Multilingual User Interface Pack (2 cds)
Micros0ft Project 2002 Pro
Micros0ft Publisher XP 2002
Micros0ft Visio for Enterprise Architects 2003
Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Corporate Edition with SP1
Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Professional
Nort0n Antivirus 2004 Pro
Nort0n SystemWorks Pro 2004 (1 cd)
OmniPage 14 Office (1 cd)
Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd)
PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire Datecode 2003451 (3 cds)
PowerQuest Drive Image 7.01 Multilanguage (1 cd)
Ulead DVD Workshop 2.0
Micros0ft Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect (8 cds)
Winfax PRO 10.03
and MORE soft wares - have 850 soft ware titles on our site for u 		55.00
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== C L I C K - H E R E ==
(Plz give 2-3 mins to complete the page loading bcos the page has 850 titles on it)

 take me down
----9787555519420857-- From xdbid3jsl@b... Sat Aug 28 09:36:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: xdbid3jsl@b... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 60576 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2004 16:36:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Aug 2004 16:36:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 66.218.66.218) (221.155.250.174) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2004 16:36:58 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com, robinsoncurr@egroups.com, freeservers@egroups.com, allthingsannerice@egroups.com Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:26:48 -0700 Message-ID: <61nocotd71r3szw5649o3anhql@borneasy> Received: zkantpd6v-wwpj.noneforced.com (gayd [188.136.69.104]) by laughing.proudbrother.com (7.49.0/7.74.4) with ESMTP id O56DYD0R7IG6 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:29:48 -0400 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.6277.1942 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--1407405326748331" X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 221.155.250.174 From: "Ping Loni" Reply-To: "Ping Loni" Subject: Never Pay High Priice For Ur Softwares, Download Here today X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ----1407405326748331 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit name youth cause colour learn medicine up died except stood trouble hopes whenever care ----1407405326748331 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Your needed soffttwares at Rock Bottom prri ce!
- What you bought previously was go to shop & buuyy a WIND0WS XP Pro that comes with a BOX & serial number & the manual cosst 299.00

- What you will get from us is The full W1ND0WS XP Pro sofftwaree & serial number. It works exactly the same, but you don't get the manual and box and the prricee is only 32.00 . That is a savviing of 254.00

So0ftware title Our L0W Priicce
Adobbe Creative Suite (5 cds)
Adobbe PhotooShop CS 8.0 (1 cd)
3D Studio Max 6.0 (3 cds)
Adobbe Premiere Pro 7.0 (1 cd)
Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited
AutoCAD 2005
Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2005
Cakewalk Sonar 3 Producer Edition (3 cds)
Canopus ProCoder 1.5 (1 cd)
Corel Draw 12 Graphic Suite (3 cds)
Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Flash MX 2004 v7.0 Professional
Macromedia Studio MX 2004 (1 cd)
Micros0ft Money 2004 Deluxe (1 cd)
Micros0ft Office 2003 System Professional (5 cds)
Micros0ft Office 2003 Multilingual User Interface Pack (2 cds)
Micros0ft Project 2002 Pro
Micros0ft Publisher XP 2002
Micros0ft Visio for Enterprise Architects 2003
Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Corporate Edition with SP1
Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Professional
Nort0n Antivirus 2004 Pro
Nort0n SystemWorks Pro 2004 (1 cd)
OmniPage 14 Office (1 cd)
Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd)
PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire Datecode 2003451 (3 cds)
PowerQuest Drive Image 7.01 Multilanguage (1 cd)
Ulead DVD Workshop 2.0
Micros0ft Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect (8 cds)
Winfax PRO 10.03
and MORE soft wares - have 850 soft ware titles on our site for u 		55.00
32.00
50.00
32.00
40.00
32.00
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36.00
25.00
32.00
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32.00
30.00
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It's 0EM version of sofftwaares which is an Original/Genuine sofftwaares, strictly no piracy sofftwaares
Over 850 popular titles for you to choose from

Act quick now before all sold

Start using your needed sofftwaares now
== C L I C K - H E R E ==
(Plz give 2-3 mins to complete the page loading bcos the page has 850 titles on it)

 take me down
----1407405326748331-- From rzgld38livn@o... Thu Sep 09 12:28:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rzgld38livn@o... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 35894 invoked from network); 9 Sep 2004 19:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Sep 2004 19:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 66.218.66.217) (221.147.136.254) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 2004 19:28:55 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com, robinsoncurr@egroups.com, freeservers@egroups.com, allthingsannerice@egroups.com Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:28:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2461.7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--43865059271584949" X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 221.147.136.254 From: "Sharee Renate" Reply-To: "Sharee Renate" Subject: 95% Off The Retailing Priice For Software sense around continued X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ----43865059271584949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit times horses meant showed ears position field voice repetition line ----43865059271584949 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Your needed soffttwares at Rock Bottom prri ce!
- What you bought previously was go to shop & buuyy a WIND0WS XP Pro that comes with a BOX & serial number & the manual cosst 299.00

- What you will get from us is The full W1ND0WS XP Pro sofftwaree & serial number. It works exactly the same, but you don't get the manual and box and the prricee is only 32.00 . That is a savviing of 254.00

So0ftware title Our L0W Priicce
Adobbe Creative Suite (5 cds)
Adobbe PhotooShop CS 8.0 (1 cd)
3D Studio Max 6.0 (3 cds)
Adobbe Premiere Pro 7.0 (1 cd)
Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited
AutoCAD 2005
Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2005
Cakewalk Sonar 3 Producer Edition (3 cds)
Canopus ProCoder 1.5 (1 cd)
Corel Draw 12 Graphic Suite (3 cds)
Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004 v7.0
Macromedia Flash MX 2004 v7.0 Professional
Macromedia Studio MX 2004 (1 cd)
Micros0ft Money 2004 Deluxe (1 cd)
Micros0ft Office 2003 System Professional (5 cds)
Micros0ft Office 2003 Multilingual User Interface Pack (2 cds)
Micros0ft Project 2002 Pro
Micros0ft Publisher XP 2002
Micros0ft Visio for Enterprise Architects 2003
Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Corporate Edition with SP1
Micros0ft Wind0ws XP Professional
Nort0n Antivirus 2004 Pro
Nort0n SystemWorks Pro 2004 (1 cd)
OmniPage 14 Office (1 cd)
Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd)
PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire Datecode 2003451 (3 cds)
PowerQuest Drive Image 7.01 Multilanguage (1 cd)
Ulead DVD Workshop 2.0
Micros0ft Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect (8 cds)
Winfax PRO 10.03
and MORE soft wares - have 850 soft ware titles on our site for u 		55.00
32.00
50.00
32.00
40.00
32.00
32.00
36.00
25.00
32.00
25.00
25.00
32.00
30.00
50.00
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32.00
20.00
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20.00
20.00
25.00
25.00
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20.00
20.00
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20.00
Download your sofftwaares from our Superfast (100mbits connection) site & you will be given your own exclusive registration key to register the sofftwaares you bought from us, and now you have your own registered copy of sofftwaares (will never expired again)

It's 0EM version of sofftwaares which is an Original/Genuine sofftwaares, strictly no piracy sofftwaares
Over 850 popular titles for you to choose from

Act quick now before all sold

Start using your needed sofftwaares now
== C L I C K - H E R E ==
(Plz give 2-3 mins to complete the page loading bcos the page has 850 titles on it)

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Adobbe Creative Suite (5 cds)
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Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2005
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To permanently stop receiving thisNewsletter, please use our secur= e One-Step Safe Un-Sub-scribe: Send a blank e-mail with "No Thanks" in t= he sub-ject line to nothanks@w... For any questions= , comments or complaints about receiving this newsletter; please w<= m>rite to: e-Broadcast Group 6 Eftute Ave. Kingston 10 Jamaica WI <-*->|= d[8dSFA3iF Asn|=3D0,szIz8,iF Asn|=3D0,szI8F3=3DdNFA=3DZ3s|[,=3DiF Asn= |=3D0,szI62vdiF Asn|=3D0,szIuOF SFRiF Asn|=3D0,szISZ8sz[,Z9iF Asn|=3D= 0,sz<-*-> ------3270324277532343-- From twcigfp@l... Wed Dec 08 02:31:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: twcigfp@l... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 70061 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 10:31:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 10:31:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 72.13.2.28) (72.13.2.34) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 10:31:28 -0000 message-id: To: , <275a@egroups.com>, , Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 06:04:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----32161266902114932" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 72.13.2.34 From: "-JR" Subject: News just Out. SYGG completes contract with E-Bay X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------32161266902114932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------32161266902114932 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Document









To permanently stop receiving thisNewsletter, please use our secure O= ne-Step Safe Un-Sub-scribe: Send a blank e-mail with "No Thanks" in t= he sub-ject line to nothanks@w... For any questions= , comments or complaints about receiving this newsletter; please wr= ite to: e-Broadcast Group 6 Eftute Ave. Kingston 10 Jamaica WI <-*->8= F3=3DdNFA=3DZ3s|[,=3DiF Asn|=3D0,szI62vdiF Asn|=3D0,szIuOF SFRiF Asn|= =3D0,szISZ8sz[,Z9iF Asn|=3D0,sz<-*-> ------32161266902114932-- From myoqcbtfrp@l... Thu Dec 09 07:06:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: myoqcbtfrp@l... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 46789 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 15:06:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 15:06:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 72.13.2.78) (72.13.2.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 15:06:10 -0000 message-id: <0Wj64_A53ZmfYle1x_qJ@l...> To: , , , , , Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 09:25:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----1365777912666626296" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 72.13.2.82 From: "-R" Subject: News out after the Bell. SYGG completes contract for E-Bay X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------1365777912666626296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------1365777912666626296 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Document










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<-*->SZ8sz[,Z9iF Asn|=3D0,szI=3D[S@F83F83iF Asn|=3D0,szIOAs3$FA$ss9s_= 9dA@8F=3D=3DZ=3DnO=3D,A[OiF Asn|=3D0,sz<-*-> ------872226884180281668-- From dffseld@L... Thu Jan 06 08:32:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dffseld@L... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 81322 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2005 16:32:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jan 2005 16:32:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 72.13.5.6) (72.13.5.8) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2005 16:32:35 -0000 message-id: To: , , , , , , Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:22:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----101852801397524" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 72.13.5.8 From: "Need_a_Laptop" Subject: -Complimentary_Computer-_Sony_Vaio_Laptop X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------101852801397524 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------101852801397524 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable vaio_space

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<-*->3Ad8,[F8Z=3DnO=3D,A[OFiF Asn|=3D0,szISZ8sz[,Z9iF Asn|=3D0,szI=3D= [S@F83F83iF Asn|=3D0,szIOAs3$FA$ss9s_9dA@8F=3D=3DZ=3DnO=3D,A[OiF Asn|= =3D0,szI[z|AsNF?3NdRiF Asn|=3D0,szId9s|3[s8=3DFdA,$d=3D=3D[=3D3iF Asn= |=3D0,szI,R,SFZ8F?=3DiF Asn|=3D0,sz<-*-> ------101852801397524-- From wmgcvupph@l... Thu Jan 06 13:00:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: wmgcvupph@l... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 4484 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2005 21:00:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jan 2005 21:00:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 72.13.5.26) (72.13.5.26) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2005 21:00:03 -0000 message-id: To: , , , , , Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:14:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----206233015295682732" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 72.13.5.26 From: "Market Research" Subject: -MiFi XM Satellite Radio and an Apple iPod, get both for Free! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------206233015295682732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------206233015295682732 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable xm_flake_12.14.04
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<-*->_[S[|[8d=3DZn8=3DnO=3D,A[OFiF Asn|=3D0,szId_9dZ[3iF Asn|=3D0,szI[Ad= 1ZzFF3iF Asn|=3D0,szI=3DFAF8[3R|AdRFA9FNs3[s8=3DiF Asn|=3D0,szI3Ad= 8,[F8Z=3DnO=3D,A[OFiF Asn|=3D0,szISZ8sz[,Z9iF Asn|=3D0,sz<-*-> ------206233015295682732-- From xcmisofpswg@n... Thu Jan 06 16:50:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: xcmisofpswg@n... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@egroups.com Received: (qmail 27074 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2005 00:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jan 2005 00:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 72.13.5.31) (72.13.5.31) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2005 00:49:58 -0000 message-id: <0W7D8_E9f2y_1xq31_XK@n...> To: , Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:26:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----269955896675208" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 72.13.5.31 From: "Money to shop" Subject: -Participate in our Retail Store Review Program X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public ------269955896675208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------269955896675208 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable retail_cart_12.08.04
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<-*->3Ad8,[F8Z=3DnO=3D,A[OFiF Asn|=3D0,szISZ8sz[,Z9iF Asn|=3D0,sz<-*-> ------269955896675208-- From 7af744040322fb68c02191557fe9b9f7@a... Fri Jan 07 04:59:19 2005 Return-Path: <7af744040322fb68c02191557fe9b9f7@a...> X-Sender: 7af744040322fb68c02191557fe9b9f7@a... X-Apparently-To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87452 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2005 12:59:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jan 2005 12:59:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO abbreviation) (211.247.225.52) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2005 12:59:17 -0000 To: l-nomic-d@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/html;charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:59:21 +1100 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 211.247.225.52 From: "Amanda" <7af744040322fb68c02191557fe9b9f7@a...> Reply-To: "Amanda" <7af744040322fb68c02191557fe9b9f7@a...> Subject: Hey, I joined this dating site. What you guys think? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public http://search.dateu.to

I made it so my picture is up the top. This site is pretty cool. Free to join and stuff, so I thought I'd throw up my profile. Tell me guys, what do you think of my pic? I'm the one up the very top of the search!

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