Subject: MN: self-abuse

From: kenningd@w... (L'homme a tete de choux)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:57:14 +0100

>I could even Vote FOR my own Proposals
>that fail for the want of one Vote (such as my Subs one last Week),
>if I really wanted to abuse my position.

What I would like to know is why voting for your own proposal is such a bad
thing. I'm sure there is a perfectly good reason, I'm just ignorant of
it. Maybe I should propose to abolish that particular Kudos penalty.

>Tish. The reason I occasionally manage to get the Pulse bonus is
>because I usually submit three Proposals a Week, reducing the number
>of Proposals that I need to give the "correct" Votes to.

Maybe I'm just being particularly thick today, but I don't quite follow this.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, because I believe our Speaker wouldn't stoop so low
as to cheat in the manner suggested.

>And since
>most Proposals are discussed on the mailing list anyway, it usually
>ends up with most of us agreeing on whether a Proposal is Good or
>Bad.

Indeed -- whether or not I agree with the majority opinion, I think I usually
have a good idea which way a proposal will go, but that doesn't stop me voting
the other way if that's what I believe.

>By all means Propose to ban the Speaker from getting the Pulse
>bonus, though, if it makes you feel any better.

Which way would you vote on that one then?

dave

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From: Kevan Davis <kdavis@i...>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:12:58 +0100 (BST)

>it. Maybe I should propose to abolish that particular Kudos penalty.

It just seems more democratic - that one person puts a Proposal
forward and all the other Players decide whether it's a good or
bad one. Allowing Players to Vote for eir own Proposals just
means that every Proposal gets an extra FOR Vote (except for the
rare cases when a Player realises eir Proposal to be broken and
Votes AGAINST), and more Proposals get through than perhaps
should.

I think it was more of an issue when nobody was bothering to
Vote much and Proposals were getting through because the
Proposers were Voting FOR. Or something like that.

>Maybe I'm just being particularly thick today, but I don't quite follow this.

You get the Pulse bonus if you Vote the way of the majority on
all Proposals bar your own. This past Week, I just had to make
the "right" Vote on dave and Dunx's single Proposals - Dunx had
to make the "right" Vote for dave's and three of mine, Paul had
to do so for dave's, Dunx's and mine. I lack the enthusiasm to
work out probabilities, but a person who has to get two Votes
tallying is more likely to do so than someone requiring five.

>as to cheat in the manner suggested.

Indeed not. There's really no point in me going against my
Voting principles just to get an effective 2.5 Kudos bonus
each Week.

>the other way if that's what I believe.

Absolutely, yes. Which does make me wonder why we've got the
Pulse rule, apart from it being a little lottery for Players
who bother to Vote. I find it hard to believe that anyone might
actually Vote against their principles just to try and win it.

>Which way would you vote on that one then?

[grins]

Doing away with it altogether might be wise, really - I find
myself unconvinced that "going the way of the masses" is
something we should be applauding people for.

Kevan

--
kdavis@i... - http://www.innotts.co.uk/~elusive/kevan - UIN: 5998366
"All over Battersea, some hope and some despair."
-- Morrissey, "You're The One For Me, Fatty"

---

From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" <DELLIS@U...>
Date: 15 Jul 98 16:01:48 +0100

>Votes AGAINST), and more Proposals get through than perhaps 

Indeed - by discouraging the Proposer from voting FOR their own 
Proposals each Proposal basically has a fifty/fifty chance of being 
carried, whereas with the Proposer supporting their own Proposal 
all the Proposals put forward stand a higher chance of passing. 

As Kevan says, it was more of an issue in the early days when there 
were fewer players and fewer voters, but even now with only seven 
voting Players each definite FOR vote pushes the passing chance up by 
14% or so. Actually, it's probably half of 14%, making it a 57%/43% 
chance of passing... I don't know. Probability was never my mathematical 
strong point, and conditional probability was a personal nightmare. 

>something we should be applauding people for. 

As I've Proposed before (Prop 374, y2w5), why not get rid of Kudos 
entirely? Kudos seems to me a largely unnecessary mechanism for 
measuring democratic 'success' ie how many votes you got, and how 
active you were. Given the rolling de-emphasis of the Nomic aspect 
in MorNomic, the presence of Kudos seems particularly anachronistic. 

The positive aspects of Kudos are the 'Voting Own' sanction and the 
element of whimsy introduced with the bonus scheme. I think 'Voting 
Own' is better handled by penalising Proposing rights, and much as I 
applaud whimsy it seems to sit less comfortably in the Nomic section 
of the game than in the MC part. 

Still, that's my view. Prop 374 was voted down quite spectacularly 
last time, so I know not many others share it. 

-- 
Dunx 
IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle 
<I work for Oracle, I don't speak for them>

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From: kenningd@w... (L'homme a tete de choux)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:20:23 +0100

>carried,

Really? This may be statistically true, but I don't think statistics come in to
it -- I mean, does a controversial proposal to radically alter he structure of
the game have the same chance of passing as a banal proposal to tidy up the
wording of a small rule?

> whereas with the Proposer supporting their own Proposal 

My point in questioning the restriction is really that even if this is true, is
it a good enough reason for denying people the right to stand up for their own
ideas? I'm not so sure it is, y'know.

>something we should be applauding people for. 

Indeed, I'd have to agree with this.

>entirely?

Oh, not *that* old chestnut...

dave

---

From: Kevan Davis <kdavis@i...>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:52:48 +0100 (BST)

>the game have the same chance of passing as a banal proposal to tidy up the

Indeed not, no - fifty-fifty isn't really the case, and it's quite
rare that a Proposal gets a direct split of Votes. But it's true
that letting everyone Vote for their own stuff increases the
chance of Proposals getting through. It's effectively the same as
saying "Proposals pass unless they receive more AGAINST Votes than
FOR Votes", since it doesn't do much more than break tie-breaks.

>ideas? I'm not so sure it is, y'know.

Well, by Proposing something you're standing up for your own
idea. In a way the current system lets you *really* stand up
for your ideas by sacrificing a few Kudos to Vote FOR your
Proposal (as Dunx did last Week, since e considered eir
Proposal to be important). Blindly giving the green light to
everyone means that everyone automatically stands up for
their own ideas without even thinking about it, which is
arguably a bad thing.

Kevan

--
kdavis@i... - http://www.innotts.co.uk/~elusive/kevan - UIN: 5998366
"If God had meant for us to work, then I'm sure he would have given us jobs."
-- Half Man Half Biscuit, "A Lilac Harry Quinn"