Subject: MN: RE: Next Game

From: "Wayper, Paul" <WayperP@p...>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:27:39 +1000

Dunx replied:
> miKi suggested: 
> >I think we should get the Long Game going - I see the potential 
> >for many maneouvres being developed in such a forum. 
> 
> Any chance of a Ruttsborough game as well? 

I want to try out the Finsbury Option rules!

Mind you, I think of the extra rulesets as neat way to try out new
ideas, rather than enact them in the base ruleset to inflict on all
games currently running. If you see my meaning.

Have fun,

Paul Wayper -- DPI ITS Computer Systems Officer
_____________________________________________________________________
SigClean 1.5a prevents all errors in transcription, transmission, and
reception of eMail, destroys sig and email viruses, and stops flames.
If it doesn't seem to work, contact me and I'll fix it. (c) 1998 PJW

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From: Kevan Davis <kdavis@i...>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:40:26 +0100 (BST)

>I want to try out the Finsbury Option rules!

And Julie and I are in favour of trying out the Team Game Rules. Hmm.
I wonder if a "New Game" Proposal type is perhaps the way to go,
here...

I'd go straight for a Long Game, but have a few reservations about it;
aside from the obsolete wording of the 25-Gold limit which dave has
Point of Ordered, I think the idea of a Long Game over email is a
particularly bad one. With Game 4 getting up to 10k and lasting a fair
while, a Long Game is likely to end up around 80k and be around even
longer - this seems like quite an unwelcome source of list traffic.

Maybe some rewording of the Long Game is in order, so that we play
Games 9a, 9b, 9c and so forth, with most of the Game State remaining
intact between subgames?

I've corrected (but not uploaded, since I've been away a few days
and have yet to reach off-peak phonebill hours) the Rule at dave's
suggestion, but would welcome suggestion for a better Long Game Rule.

Kevan

--
kdavis@i... - http://www.innotts.co.uk/~elusive/kevan - UIN: 5998366
"And the Lord set his dog unto them."
-- John Hegley

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From: Kevan Davis <kdavis@i...>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:38 +0100 (BST)

>>I think the idea of a Long Game over email is a
>Maybe it would be best if only the last two moves for each player were listed
>(each player removing the move at the top of the list on eir go) and the rest
>archived on a web page (not necessarily more work for Kevan if other people
>could volunteer time and web space)

Such an approach was proposed in the early days, if memory serves, but
was shot down for reasons I forget. It's the lack of a Game history, I
suppose - there are a few elements that require the full log, such as
Bulkheading, and not Token Running twice from the same Station. A game
archive is a nice idea, but a bit fiddly, and ideally you should have
everything you need on the GSD without checking elsewhere.

Probably something to leave until the the dreamt-of days when we have
some sort of cgi-bin server going, I suppose. Until then, a 9a/9b/9c
approach might work better - we just need a way to break the game up;
possibly some sort of "[Ending Game Section]" Action that can be
performed for free after 'n' Turns. Token totals and everything get
carried forward, and maybe we overlook Run repeats, Bulkheads and 
whatnot if they're not referenced on the current GSD. Hmm.

On an unrelated note; I was in London this weekend with Julie, and we
did the usual visits to the Crescent and the Transport Museum gift
shop - I was pleased to see the proper board game of "The London Game"
there (I got the travel edition last time I was there); you get a nice
plastic map of the Underground (the section within the Circle line,
anyway), as well as counters and dice and things. The game itself is
amusing if rather repetitive, but the idea of having a proper map
and maybe bringing it along to a Pilgrimage, along with a printed
Ruleset, amused me. Maybe we could club together and get a full-size
poster laminated...

Kevan

--
kdavis@i... - http://www.innotts.co.uk/~elusive/kevan - UIN: 5998366
"Let's trash the murder-mystery weekend, let's stage a couldn't-give-a-thon."
-- Half Man Half Biscuit, "Monmore, Hare's Running"

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From: Kevan Davis <kdavis@i...>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:08:10 +0100 (BST)

>>some sort of cgi-bin server going, I suppose.
>
>It would be lovely to have some kind of fancy program where you could enter
>your moves and actions and so on and it updated the GSD for you -- even better
>a graphic representation of the board with players' positions indicated.

I've been toying with this idea for a long while - possibly something in
Java, more likely something in C++. Not too tricky, really; just cut and
paste the latest GSD and let it scan through and translate, drawing counters
onto the GIF map as appropriate - it's just the "telling it where all the
Stations actually are" bit that I find somewhat daunting.

Still. That'll probably be something I'll try my hand at when I lay hands
on compilers and stuff, although I might dig Java back out and have a play
with it, if I think it'll be feasible.

>>did the usual visits to the Crescent...
>
>May be your last ever opportunity -- on the radio this morning there was talk
>of renaming the station to Camden High Street. This would also have rather
>peculiar implications for the game... 

Horrors. Is anyone kicking up a fuss, do we know?

>>I was pleased to see the proper board game of "The London Game"
>>anyway), as well as counters and dice and things.
>
>sounds great -- I may have to get that for myself.

It's not bad. The travel one's seven quid, the proper one about
fifteen. The game itself is simple yet moderately entertaining -
you each draw five Station cards and keep them secret, playing
them when you get to that Station and winning when you've emptied
your hand and returned to your BR connection. Roll a die for your
LV each turn, draw a potentially-scuppering "hazard" card when
you want to change lines (which may send you elsewhere on the
map, or let you continue but do something to another player), and
that's about it. "Closed stations" are quite a nice touch, acting
as Mornomic Blocks, but breakable if you're going fast enough.
It's not bad, really.

I only bought it for the map and magnetic counters, mind (half
of which are currently stuck to a torn-out diary map on the side
of our PC, showing where everyone is in Game 8 - it makes things
a *lot* clearer when you have such an overview). The proper game
has a bigger map and probably nicer, non-magnetic pieces, and
presumably proper cards rather than flimsy papery ones.

I really must scrawl "Mornington Crescent" onto one of the spare
blank Station cards...

>Funnily enough, I was pondering last night as I lay sleeplessly staring at the
>ceiling, wht exactly it is that's not quite right with MN -- I came to the
>conclusion it's the fact that game play structure revolves around the GSD
>rather than around a (notional) playing board. I think perhaps if we tried to
>think of it in terms of a traditional board game, and of the GSD as no more
>than a record of moves, it would resolve a few complications -- this sounds a
>bit vague, but I have thought it through, and I'll reveal my thoughts in more
>detail later when I've got more time.

It's hard to get the balance, really; if we did end up with a
game that worked excellently on a board, it'd be quite tricky
to play over email (Scrabble, for example, is feasible through
such means, but rather fiddly).

For instance, if we were trying to create a game playable
around a pub table in Parsons Green, I think we'd probably
ditch a lot of the Game Time mallarkey and just have a
basic "one pre-Move, one Move, one post-Move" approach,
rather than faffing around adding up durations in our heads.
I could see us getting into lots of "hold on, hold on, go
through that again while I get some paper" situations towards
endgame, otherwise, which would be quite dull - far easier
to sum that sort of thing up in an email.

And although this would make for a quicker, neater and all-round
easier real-life version, it would take a lot away from the
mailing list forum, which by its very nature lends itself to
a more complex and thoughtful sort of game.

Two very different stools, but I think we probably could do
with edging towards the "real-life game" one a bit more.

Kevan

--
kdavis@i... - http://www.innotts.co.uk/~elusive/kevan - UIN: 5998366
"Your life's an open magazine."
-- The Whitlams, "You Sound Like Louis Burdett"

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From: "Dunx (Duncan Ellis)" <DELLIS@U...>
Date: 04 Aug 98 15:47:26 +0100

>onto the GIF map as appropriate 
Indeed. Not difficult. 

>it's just the "telling it where all the 
I've done all that, if you'd be interested. 

It was when I was fiddling around with Spin a few months ago - I typed in 
the station names, the stations they connected to on each line, and 
(crucially, from this point of view) the station coordinates on the GIF 
map (relative to Tottenham Court Road). 

The data is in a textual but easily interpreted format, but I've also got 
a large set of SQL statements to create some database tables and insert the 
station data. The SQL is tuned for an Oracle database (perhaps 
unsurprisingly) but I've got a slightly modified version into Access as 
well. 

I also have a program which reads the text form and converts it into 
internal data structures. It's this program I used to generate the SQL 
INSERT statements. 

Spin, of course, was far too fiddly in the end but if the station data is 
useful you would be more than welcome. 

-- 
Dunx 
IRL: Duncan Ellis, Senior Software Engineer, Business Modelers, Oracle 
<I work for Oracle, I don't speak for them>