From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 6 11:42:57 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03552 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:42:57 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] New Macronomic List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net While talking with Philo over the past couple days, we had discussed the idea of having the macronomic mailing list on a machine with more full time connectivity, under the control of at least one player, and capable of offering list archives. To that end, I offered my machine to act as a mailling list host for the list, and have set up this list with the addresses of all people subscribed to the mn@poverty.bloomington.in.us list. Currently the list is set up with myself and philo as the list admins, though the SoMembership should probably also be able to admin the list (in order to subscribe/unsubscribe players when they leave/join). The mailing list software in use is called Listar, and is currently under development by myself and a friend. More information about Listar can be found at http://www.nausicaa.net/~listar/ for anyone who is interested. The two addresses of relevance are: macronomic@dragoncat.net (all list traffic) macronomic-request@dragoncat.net (list commands) To get a very rudimentary help file on listar functions, send the command 'help' in the body of the text to macronomic-request@dragoncat.net I'll also happily answer any questions about how to use Listar. If you are on this list and do not wish to be, please send mail to macronomic-request@dragoncat.net with the command 'unsubscribe' in either the subject or the body of the message. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Sat Jun 6 16:19:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04441 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:19:46 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.130] (ip127.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.127]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24616 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:21:03 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Paper X-archive-position: 2 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net This paper was unanimously approved by the Revolutionary Party. You have one week to determine if it enhances the understanding of MacroNomic or nomic as a whole. On the Appearance of Recurring Themes within MacroNomic Unlike most nomics, which are largely repetitive games, following the same "democratic" system, MacroNomic has chosen to beat a different path. Yet despite this choice, there are those who claim that the common practices between MacroNomic and other nomics are a sign of weakness on our part. As I will show, this is most certainly not true: they are instead demonstrations of the ability of MacroNomic to sort out the few good parts from a typical nomic, and use them ourselves, usually in a more flexible and efficient way. Perhaps the one thing most common to nomics is the proposal. Even imperial nomics have proposals, and although imperial and standard nomics handle them somewhat differently, they are fundementally the same. However this apparant failing in the independance of MacroNomic actually shows one of its greatest strengths. For comparison, look at Agora and Ackanomic, the two largest internet nomics. Both of them have a number of things which are voted on besides proposals, and systems for doing it: referenda and hearings, respectively. However unlike Macronomic, neither has incorporated their proposal systems into it, (nor their justice/CFJ systems). In fact many Ackans strongly object to altering rules via hearings instead of proposals. If proposals are the most common, then CfJ's are second. While both Ackanomic and Agora have added criminal justice as well, only MacroNomic has a panel of judges for the initial judgement. MacroNomic is also the only one to include two types of crime, and to (presumably and eventually) incorporate justice with referenda. Yet another similarity, most games have officers (our Secretaries). But how many of those games began splitting up jurisdiction in the initial ruleset, instead of waiting until people were overburdened? In addition, the MacroNomic Secretaries are far more flexible, needing only the consent of the previous holder and the new holder to transfer it. Finally, the concept of both an aid to new players and a university recur in several nomics. However no other nomic has integrated them, intentionally pairing the most learned players with the least learned to educate them. The remaining question is why these themes appear in many, most, or even all nomics. There are two parts to the answer. The first is that all games of nomic take a great deal of inspiration from the real world, especially U.S. law. As Philo once said, it is much easier to understand what something is when it has the same name as something in real life, and works the same way. It is much easier to know what a referendum is than what a flabijuo is. The second part of the answer is necessity and convenience. For example, every nomic needs a way to work out rule disputes. The CfJ method is used for a number of reasons. The method needs to be simple, safe from catastrophe, and produce fair and accurate results. We could use a system which called for an outside mediator, or which was determined by vote, but none of these solve the problem as well as the CfJ system used by most nomics. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 7 19:34:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09409 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:34:53 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA22258; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a017.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29145; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:34:22 -0400 Date: 7 Jun 98 22:38:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 3 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I vote FOR this paper. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jreed@itis.com Mon Jun 8 07:55:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis2.itis.com [209.83.0.132]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11796 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:55:36 -0700 Received: from [209.83.15.157] (a19-29.itis.com [209.83.15.157]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16655 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:55:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:01:21 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper X-archive-position: 4 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I vote FOR this paper. > >--- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Er, you can't. Only the RP while it's Active1. By the way, I like the [MacroNomic] thing. Very easy to pick out, visually. Also by the way, who is volunteering for the secretariats I hold? Townser, everything but SoT, Lambda SoT, right? - Philo (SoT, SoF, SoJ, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "First you geet de shuga; den you geet de powa; den -- you geet de weemen." - Homer Simpson From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Jun 8 08:11:03 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11891 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:11:02 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 5 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Jason Reed wrote: >>I vote FOR this paper. >> >>--- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) >Er, you can't. Only the RP while it's Active1. I thought it had stopped being Active1 recently. >By the way, I like the [MacroNomic] thing. Very easy to pick out, visually. Glad you like it. >Also by the way, who is volunteering for the secretariats I hold? Townser, >everything but SoT, Lambda SoT, right? I will volunteer to hold the SoJ. BTW, noone has commented at all on that proto-proposal for dealing with paradox, so I will just ask you (Philo) to make it into a full-fledged proposal and distribute it with the next batch (should be tomorrow or Wednesday, yes?) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jreed@itis.com Mon Jun 8 08:25:29 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11945 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:25:27 -0700 Received: from [209.83.15.157] (a19-29.itis.com [209.83.15.157]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18649 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:25:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:31:17 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper X-archive-position: 6 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>>I vote FOR this paper. >>Er, you can't. Only the RP while it's Active1. >I thought it had stopped being Active1 recently. Oops, I thought he was referring to the other one. >BTW, noone has commented at all on that proto-proposal for dealing with >paradox, so I will just ask you (Philo) to make it into a full-fledged >proposal and distribute it with the next batch (should be tomorrow or >Wednesday, yes?) Tomorrow. But if you're referring to >For instance, something like this added to Section 0 as 0-0 or something. >PROTO-PROPOSAL >If ever the game should reach a state that is unplayable, or a situation >exists where two rules are mutually exclusive and no precedence can be >determined by normal means, then any player may submit a type of referendum here> stating this. >The judges for this shall be the entire RP and the >votes shall be YES or NO. Should the outcome on this >be YES, then the RP may draft a proposal which only they may vote on >designed to alleviate the problem and allow normal game play to continue. >During the judgement of the and the proposal (if >needed) normal game play is suspended. This rule claims precedence over >every other rule, and no rule may ever claim precedence over this one. >This rule may not be repealed or ameneded except by a unanimous vote. >END PROTO I don't think it'll quite work as an actual prop unless you fix it up a bit. :) And I didn't comment on it only because I didn't notice something until now. If the game is unplayable, how can you even follow this rule? What exactly does the last sentence mean? (I know what it should mean, but you might want to make it more explicit. "This rule may not be amended, except by the effect of a proposal which has no votes AGAINST it upon passing." or something. - Philo (SoT, SoF, SoJ, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "First you geet de shuga; den you geet de powa; den -- you geet de weemen." - Homer Simpson From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Jun 8 08:47:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12042 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:47:18 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA08865 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661D.0056DCEC ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:48:46 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661D.0056E81B.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:50:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper X-archive-position: 7 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Also by the way, who is volunteering for the secretariats I hold? Townser, >everything but SoT, Lambda SoT, right? I said I'd take SoT & SoF. I not bothered about SoT, but given that I'm SoM it makes sense if I have SoF also. -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Jun 8 09:01:41 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12102 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:01:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:01:40 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 8 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Jason Reed wrote: >>For instance, something like this added to Section 0 as 0-0 or something. >>PROTO-PROPOSAL >>If ever the game should reach a state that is unplayable, or a situation >>exists where two rules are mutually exclusive and no precedence can be >>determined by normal means, then any player may submit a >type of referendum here> stating this. >>The judges for this shall be the entire RP and the >>votes shall be YES or NO. Should the outcome on this >>be YES, then the RP may draft a proposal which only they may vote on >>designed to alleviate the problem and allow normal game play to continue. >>During the judgement of the and the proposal (if >>needed) normal game play is suspended. This rule claims precedence over >>every other rule, and no rule may ever claim precedence over this one. >>This rule may not be repealed or ameneded except by a unanimous vote. >>END PROTO > >I don't think it'll quite work as an actual prop unless you fix it up a bit. :) >And I didn't comment on it only because I didn't notice something until >now. If the game is unplayable, how can you even follow this rule? What >exactly does the last sentence mean? (I know what it should mean, but you >might want to make it more explicit. "This rule may not be amended, except >by the effect of a proposal which has no votes AGAINST it upon passing." or >something. Well, the intent was to reserve a small portion of gameplay which could still continue in the event that a large part of the ruleset got scotched by some paradox. By giving this rule supreme authority (see suber's discussions in Paradox of Self-Amendment :) it provides an almost inviolate method by which game play can be restarted even from a possibly fatal to all rules but this one crash. To that end, I will submit it redone slightly as follows. PROPOSAL Paradox Resolution Create a new setion 0-0-0 titled Paradox Resolution with the following ANTI_PARADOX delimited text ANTI_PARADOX If ever the game should reach a state that is unplayable, or a situation exists where two rules are mutually exclusive and no precedence can be determined by normal means, then any player may submit a Paradox Declaration, which is a type of Referendum stating that such a state as mentioned above exists. As soon as such a Declaration is issued, other game play will pause until the Declaration has been resolved in accordance with this rule is such play was still possibly. The valid votes for a Paradox Declaration shall be YES or NO, and the judges shall be the Revolutionary Party at the time the Declaration was issued, or the previously extant Revolutionary Party if the game has corrupted in such a way that the makeup of the current Revolutionary party is not obvious. Should the outcome of the vote on the Paradox Declaration, be YES, then the following step will ensue in order. a) The Revolutionary Party (or one of it's members) will distribute a Paradox Resolution, which is a type of Referendum with valid votes of YES or NO and valid judges being the judges of the preceding Paradox Declaration. b) If the outcome of the Paradox Resolution is a vote of YES, then the details of the Resolution shall be enacted into the Macronomic Ruleset as stated, and this proceedure shall end. c) If the outcome was NO, then proceed to step a. Normal game play now resumes under the fixed ruleset. This rule may not be repealed or amended except by the passage of a proposal on which no AGAINST or LOYAL votes were cast. This rule claims precedence over all other rules and denies any rule the ability to claim precedence over itself. ANTI_PARADOX There is still one flaw in the above in that it doesn't stop the RP from unilaterally declaring a paradox and thus altering the ruleset at whim through a paradox resolution, but that is in itself, the heart of the paradox of self-amendment. As long as any way exists to change the rules, and there is no such thing as a completely inviolate rule, then there will always exsit the possibility for such unilateral usurpation of authority. My hope is that this proposal will get passed, and the RP will not abuse the potential hole here, and that eventually perhaps a better mechanism might replace (by unanimous vote) some or all of the provisions here. END PROPOSAL --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Mon Jun 8 15:53:51 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13662 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:53:47 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA03232; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a011.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA26689; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:50:59 -0400 Date: 8 Jun 98 18:55:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 9 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, Jun 8, 1998 12:01 PM, JT wrote: >Create a new setion 0-0-0 titled Paradox Resolution with the following I like this proposal, but I don't like the section being 0-0-0. This allows section 0 and 0-0 to take precedence, and since those can be modified without unanimous vote, it is a weakness. I think that we should do a little renumbering or make section 0 as a whole unmodifiable except by unanimous vote. Also, this is not clearly a descendant of 0-0. One reason for my proposal being the way it was was to prevent the game from reaching a point where nothing could happen, and also punish those who tried to do so (as it is most definately not loyal to destroy the government.) I'm still wondering which proprosal other people like better, as I'd like to have a chance to retract my proposal if peple like his better. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Mon Jun 8 15:54:59 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13675 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:54:57 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA03515; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a011.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28835; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:54:37 -0400 Date: 8 Jun 98 18:59:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 10 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Er, you can't. Only the RP while it's Active1. I was refering to Towsner's paper, which I think has become Active2. >Also by the way, who is volunteering for the secretariats I hold? Townser, >everything but SoT, Lambda SoT, right? I'll take whatever you want me to. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Jun 8 23:49:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15334 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:49:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 11 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 8 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >On Mon, Jun 8, 1998 12:01 PM, JT wrote: >>Create a new setion 0-0-0 titled Paradox Resolution with the following > >I like this proposal, but I don't like the section being 0-0-0. This allows >section 0 and 0-0 to take precedence, and since those can be modified >without unanimous vote, it is a weakness. I think that we should do a I thought about that and about renumbering it, but section 0 claims primal precedence for all rules within it, no problem, and this rule reclaims it explicitly anyway. Section 0-0 is the statement about what are the rules, and that all players must follow the rules then in effect. Subsectioning under this, which provides a way to absolve paradox from the rules seemed the cleanest place to put it. If other people feel that it really belongs elsewhere, I think it can be easily moved. >little renumbering or make section 0 as a whole unmodifiable except by >unanimous vote. Also, this is not clearly a descendant of 0-0. One reason >for my proposal being the way it was was to prevent the game from reaching >a point where nothing could happen, and also punish those who tried to do >so (as it is most definately not loyal to destroy the government.) I'm The problem is that I don't think it's possible to 'prevent' that state of affairs. Regardless of how careful the RP would be, someone would eventually sneak through a paradox. That *is* the paradox of self-amendment. By punishing it, you really do nothing to deter it. My solution doesn't bother to try, and merely provides a hopefully semi-solid foundation to resolve the inevitable. I'm not trying to prevent it, merely survive it :) >still wondering which proprosal other people like better, as I'd like to >have a chance to retract my proposal if peple like his better. I believe that the two proposals can live together if they are both accepted. Yours would make it a crime to deliberately create a paradox, mine would clean up the case where one happened inadvertantly. They are (to my mind) orthogonal concepts. I still dislike yours, but that is personal opinion and preference rather than anything else. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Tue Jun 9 14:21:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18161 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:21:24 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.61] (ip61.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.61]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26669 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:21:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <357D6D0A.8C886223@docnet.de> <8025661E.00593292.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:46:32 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Re: Hello? X-archive-position: 12 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I've looked (and grepped for 'misc' and 'other' [ie, other rules]) over 49 >again, and have found no such instruction. There's a bit that says improperly created rules get placed in 100000-, but I don't think that applies to preexisting rules. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From tows@earthlink.net Tue Jun 9 16:23:09 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18768 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:23:08 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.144] (ip144.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.144]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25129 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:27:38 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes and more X-archive-position: 13 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 69:FOR 70:FOR 71:FOR 72:FOR 73:FOR 74:FOR 75:AGAINST 77:AGAINST I have a different suggestion for paradox resolution, which I'll explain below. 78:FOR I don't like lambda's method because it punishes people for something which may well be accidental. JT's is just too risky, I don't like inviting scams. Besides, if I read it correctly, it only takes two members of the RP to scam it. Here's my suggestion: certain referenda are known as "player initiated referenda". These would include proposals, any justice thing, papers, and other similar things. Every Wednesday the game state is saved. If, for an entire week, no player initiated referenda are created, the game state reverts to the most recently saved state. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 9 16:32:05 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18825 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:32:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 14 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: > > I don't like lambda's method because it punishes people for >something which may well be accidental. JT's is just too risky, I don't >like inviting scams. Besides, if I read it correctly, it only takes two >members of the RP to scam it. Here's my suggestion: certain referenda are Oh damn. I'd meant for it to require unanimous votes, but apparently didn't specify that. >known as "player initiated referenda". These would include proposals, any >justice thing, papers, and other similar things. Every Wednesday the game >state is saved. If, for an entire week, no player initiated referenda are >created, the game state reverts to the most recently saved state. Hrm. I think this has the problem of overwriting the saved state before making the check. For instance, a proposal gets accepted which crashes the rules on tuesday. Now the game state is saved on wednesday. Now, a week passes. Because of the last save we cannot back up past that (at least by the way you phrased it :) I think you are on a better track than I was however, and would willingly support some modified version of your proposal. Anyway.. I'll send my votes and reasoning in in a while. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Tue Jun 9 17:09:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18959 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:09:12 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.155] (ip155.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.155]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28663 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:13:22 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more X-archive-position: 15 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Hrm. I think this has the problem of overwriting the saved state before >making the check. >For instance, a proposal gets accepted which crashes the rules on tuesday. >Now the game state is saved on wednesday. >Now, a week passes. >Because of the last save we cannot back up past that (at least by the way >you phrased it :) >I think you are on a better track than I was however, and would willingly >support some modified version of your proposal. How about if every Wednesday the beta save replaces the alpha save and the games state replaces the beta save. If things go wrong, we restore to the alpha save. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 9 17:21:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19033 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:21:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:21:45 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 16 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>Hrm. I think this has the problem of overwriting the saved state before >>making the check. >>For instance, a proposal gets accepted which crashes the rules on tuesday. >>Now the game state is saved on wednesday. >>Now, a week passes. >>Because of the last save we cannot back up past that (at least by the way >>you phrased it :) >>I think you are on a better track than I was however, and would willingly >>support some modified version of your proposal. > How about if every Wednesday the beta save replaces the alpha save >and the games state replaces the beta save. If things go wrong, we restore >to the alpha save. > Hrm.. I think it has the same mode of failure, but I'd need to think it out. However, none of these could handle the case of what nearly occured in Acka recently which was an object that was in the rules for a while (over 2 weeks) was then used in such a way which almost crashed the game. Under the archived situation above, the player could then just reactivate the crasher. That's the situation my amendment was trying to stop. It allows you to repair the damage. I admit that the current proposal by me isn't worded as best it could be, but it makes an honest attempt, and the RP already have a decent amount of power, i cannot see them feeling the need to abuse it to gain further power. Unfortunately, fixing any bugs in it would require a unanimous vote from the players, so I'm willing to see this shot down and will try and reword it. --JT From tows@earthlink.net Tue Jun 9 17:30:11 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19073 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:30:07 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.155] (ip47.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.47]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13566 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:32:29 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more X-archive-position: 17 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Hrm.. I think it has the same mode of failure, but I'd need to think it >out. >However, none of these could handle the case of what nearly occured in >Acka recently which was an object that was in the rules for a while (over >2 weeks) was then used in such a way which almost crashed the game. >Under the archived situation above, the player could then just reactivate >the crasher. That's the situation my amendment was trying to stop. It >allows you to repair the damage. At a certain point there's nothing you can do. This should at least give time to fix it, and is very safe, since it depends on virtually nothing else. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 9 17:37:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19134 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:37:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:37:55 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 18 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: > At a certain point there's nothing you can do. This should at >least give time to fix it, and is very safe, since it depends on virtually >nothing else. But that's the crux. I'm trying to put in place a supreme rule such that the game can in fact be recovered from any sort of catastrophe. IE, I don't agree with your first sentance above. As long as there was a supreme rule which did in fact protect itself from errant amendment, then I believe it would have the precedence and the authority to allow recovery from nearly any catastrophe. I also believe that the rule needs to be completely bulletproof from scams. This is where my current proposal fails and thus, I understand it's likely to get voted down. I will rethink and rephrase it however as I think it's on the right track. Perhaps some sort of archiving of the game state is necessary as well. (IE, in case of a crisis of this sort, the game state is rolled back to the last safe archive and then the game enters some sort of 'crisis resolution' phase where the rules empower removing proposals, repelaing rules, etc as needed to fix the state of the game, and then play proceeds. Perhaps you and I should take this to private mail, hammer out something we are both happy with and then propose it? --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Tue Jun 9 18:16:19 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19293 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:16:16 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA28779; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a034.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08883; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:15:46 -0400 Date: 9 Jun 98 21:20:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 19 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net As I have already said to Towsner, I think that a better way to deal with the paradox problem would be to keep the initial gamestate and a log of every modification of the gamestate, and be able to regenerate the gamestate from before the paradox happened. This is how version control systems work for large programming projects, in which a small change may break the whole thing long after that small change was made. As long as we are taking ideas from object oriented programming, we may as well use a version control system as well. (And how about actually writing a "Nomic Compiler" while we're at it? Now that's an idea... :) --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 9 18:28:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19339 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:28:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 20 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 9 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >As I have already said to Towsner, I think that a better way to deal with >the paradox problem would be to keep the initial gamestate and a log of >every modification of the gamestate, and be able to regenerate the >gamestate from before the paradox happened. This is how version control That begs the question of 'when' did the paradox happen? did it happen at the time it was exploited? Backing up to there doesn't solve it from happening again. Did it happen at the time the first rule which is involved was created? the last? What if it went unnoticed for 2 years but then was noticed an exploited. Do you thus lose 2 years of play? These are the types of questions that a backup and archive system cannot answer. The correct solution for the above hypothetical situation woud be to pause the game, fix the exploit and continue wihtout losing any game state (IMHO). That is the basic proceedure I want to see instituted in the rules. >systems work for large programming projects, in which a small change may >break the whole thing long after that small change was made. As long as we >are taking ideas from object oriented programming, we may as well use a >version control system as well. (And how about actually writing a "Nomic >Compiler" while we're at it? Now that's an idea... :) *shudder* While the heirarchical nature of derived definitions is appealing in some respects (as it lends to a brevity of rules), I do not want a completley OO type of game, as I said at least once beore, i write C++/Java code for work.. I play games like Nomic to relax and have fun. if the game starts feling to much like work it loses some of the fun aspect (not all because i enjoy my work and therfore it has some fun still, but it changes form in some ways for me) I certainly think a 'codable' nomic is interesting. I also know that it has been proposed in the past on the Nomic BB (cf discussions about Perl Nomic and (if I recall) Java Nomic) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 9 19:36:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19563 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:36:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:36:35 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 21 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 69, 73, 74, and 77 are mine, and I see no need to change my vote on them. 70: FOR 71: FOR 72: FOR 75: AGAINST 76: FOR 78: FOR I don't see any real need to explain my votes here as the proposals are pretty self-explanatory. PROPOSAL Silent Voting Amend Section 3-0 as follows. Replace the following VOTING delimited text VOTING A player may change eir vote on an Active proposal by notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. VOTING with the following PRIVATE_VOTE delimited text PRIVATE_VOTE A player may change eir vote on an Active Referendum by privately notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. Votes on any given type of Referendum remain private until the Referendum becomes Inactive, at which point they are revealed publically, unless a specific subclass of Referendum specifies otherwise. PRIVATE_VOTE This makes referendums and voting be private by default, which I think is a good thing. It also means one cannot predict the way a proposal will go in advance and thus change vote (if voting in a specific direction ever gains any meaning). It of course (by the definition of private notification) doesn't stop someone from voluntarily making their vote public if they desire. END PROPOSAL PROPOSAL Real Retraction Amend Section 3-1 by replacing the following " delimited text " If a player has submitted a proposal and the Secretary of Truth has not yet distributed it, that player may retract that proposal. The Secretary of Truth shall not distribute a retracted proposal, and it will not become Active. " with the following RETRACT delimited text RETRACT Any player may retract a proposal that they have submitted. If the Secratary of Truth has already distributed the proposal and that proposal has become Active, then retracting a proposal will cause the loss of 3 Loyalty points and any Proposal Commodities used on the proposal. Retracting a proposal while it is Preactive incurs no penalty. RETRACT I will note that this proposal doesn't really do much other than effectively halve the penalty for a failing proposal unless the hidden voting proposal passes. However, that in and of itself isn't a horrible thing. END PROPOSAL --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 9 19:54:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19625 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:54:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:54:48 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Another proposal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 22 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net PROPOSAL Secretary of Communication Create a rule, Section 1-2, titled Secretary of Communication with the following BREAKER_19 delimited text BREAKER_19 The Secretary of Communication is responsible for maintaining and updating the official mailing list. The Secretary of Communication may change the address of this mailing list by a public communication. At the time of that notification, the new address of the mailing list, which must of course be a valid email address, shall replace all occurances of macronomic@dragoncat.net within this rule. Mail sent to this mailing list, or sent to every player individually (and verifiably), is the only mail which shall count as Public Communication as per section 0-2. The official mailing list is macronomic@dragoncat.net. BREAKER_19 END PROPOSAL [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 01:09:11 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20628 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:09:09 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA27080 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.002EB251 ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:10:40 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.002BD7EC.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:08:00 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 23 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net JT, in your prop 69 you have put: Modify the rule titled "Tradable Objects" by replacing section 3) with the following FIX delimited text FIX 3) A player may transfer a positive quantity of tradable objects that e holds to another player by notifying the Secretary responsible for that type of object. A player may not transfer noninteger portions of a Tradable Object, nor transfer more Tradable Objects than e holds. FIX Why have you done this? All the points are already covered. Notifying the Secretary is stated in the preamble in section 6-0-1. Trading integer quantities only in dealt with in 2). And not trading more than is held is dealt with in the original 3). What does your proposed replacement achieve? It seems to be adding redundency where there already is plenty. Wouldn't a better solution be to repeal 6-1 (Since the majority opinion is that 6-0 is the prefered implementation) and replace all occurances of "Physical Object" with "Tradeable Object". This is the main reason I really object to having multiple things in one proposal, Had Philo proposed his things seperately, then we would have his version of farms and mines, and my version of objects. It would have made things a lot cleaner. -- The Kid From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 01:18:04 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20667 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:18:02 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA27198 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.002EB6AD ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:19:39 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.002D807D.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:21:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 24 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >PROPOSAL Silent Voting Hang on a moment. Before you can make any proposals, the SoT (you) needs to notify each player on what prop mines they have, and then people can only make proposals when they have the commodities, which nobody does yet. >PROPOSAL Real Retraction >Any player may retract a proposal that they have submitted. If the >Secratary of Truth has already distributed the proposal and that proposal >has become Active, then retracting a proposal will cause the loss of 3 >Loyalty points and any Proposal Commodities used on the proposal. >Retracting a proposal while it is Preactive incurs no penalty. Surely players lose the 3 proposal commodities when they originally propose the prop, so no matter when they retract it, they still don't get them back? -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 06:55:24 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21612 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:55:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:55:24 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <8025661F.002BD7EC.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 25 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >Why have you done this? All the points are already covered. Notifying the >Secretary is stated in the preamble in section 6-0-1. Trading integer >quantities only in dealt with in 2). And not trading more than is held is >dealt with in the original 3). >What does your proposed replacement achieve? It seems to be adding >redundency where there already is plenty. Wouldn't a better solution be to >repeal 6-1 (Since the majority opinion is that 6-0 is the prefered >implementation) and replace all occurances of "Physical Object" with >"Tradeable Object". Actually, not quite true. There was one small difference between the two proposals, and I prefered the wording of section 6-1's part 3 over the part 3 in section 6-0-1. I thought I'd gotten the redundancy, but might have missed some. I actually believe that there might be a reason to distinguish between physical objects and generic tradeable objects in the future which is why I left the terminology in place rather than just repealing section 6-1. >This is the main reason I really object to having multiple things in one >proposal, Had Philo proposed his things seperately, then we would have his >version of farms and mines, and my version of objects. It would have made >things a lot cleaner. While in principle I agree with you, in general, you get riders on legislation in the real world all the time, so I don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. The question is, is the rider enough to make you vote against the proposal, or are you willing to take the time to fix up the rider later. In this case, the latter seemed to be the opinion. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 07:01:10 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21641 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:01:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:01:09 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <8025661F.002D807D.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 26 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >Hang on a moment. Before you can make any proposals, the SoT (you) needs to >notify each player on what prop mines they have, and then people can only >make proposals when they have the commodities, which nobody does yet. Oy. Except for one problem which is that *I'm* not the SoT. Lambda is. However, you are correct on fact that I need that information before I can make proposals. I guess those are all proto-props then :) Thanks for reminding me, honestly :) >Surely players lose the 3 proposal commodities when they originally propose >the prop, so no matter when they retract it, they still don't get them >back? This would change that so that retracting a PreActive proposal doesn't actually cost them those three items either (or would, but then they would get them back) Especially with private notification of proposals, there might certainly be a case where two people submit similar proposals and one would want to withdraw theirs (after being notified by the proposed change). The submitter shouldn't lose the proposal commodities in that case. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 07:32:17 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21786 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:32:15 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA29679 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.0050066C ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:34:05 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.004EBA64.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:35:52 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 27 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Oy. Except for one problem which is that *I'm* not the SoT. Lambda is. Ooops, our first abbreviation clash. By SoT I meant Sec of Trade (which is you), not Sec of Truth. Perhaps Sec of Trade should be SoTd. >This would change that so that retracting a PreActive proposal >doesn't actually cost them those three items either (or would, but then >they would get them back) > >Especially with private notification of proposals, there might certainly >be a case where two people submit similar proposals and one would want to >withdraw theirs (after being notified by the proposed change). The >submitter shouldn't lose the proposal commodities in that case. If the commodities are paid when the proposal is originally submitted, then they don't get returned when a proposal is retracted (unless the rules specifically say so). If the commodities are paid when the proposal becomes active, then a player can retract a pre-active proposal without loosing any commodities. The way the rules are phrased at the moment, I understand them to mean that the commodities are paid when the proposal is originally submitted. I think this is the way it should be. If you want them to be returned for a retracted proposal, then you can propose that, but I'd prefer they wern't. As long as we don't get any subjective stuff like they only get returned if the prop is withdrawn cos it clashes with a different prop. -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 08:23:00 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22001 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:23:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:22:58 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <8025661F.004EBA64.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 28 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>Oy. Except for one problem which is that *I'm* not the SoT. Lambda is. >Ooops, our first abbreviation clash. By SoT I meant Sec of Trade (which is >you), not Sec of Truth. Perhaps Sec of Trade should be SoTd. Argh.. I hadn't even noticed that I'd becom SoTrade. I now have the info together and will include it at the bottom of this mail. I note that I believe it's been greater than 14 days since any of Narf, The Gingham Wearer, and AKA The Wiz have made any game action, voted or said anything publicaaly, and therefore they should be expelled. I also note that I am notifying myself of the fact that I utilized the State Mines to aquire an Idea. (this is noted in the list of managed objects below) >If the commodities are paid when the proposal is originally submitted, then >they don't get returned when a proposal is retracted (unless the rules >specifically say so). If the commodities are paid when the proposal becomes >active, then a player can retract a pre-active proposal without loosing any >commodities. The way the rules are phrased at the moment, I understand them >to mean that the commodities are paid when the proposal is originally >submitted. I think this is the way it should be. If you want them to be >returned for a retracted proposal, then you can propose that, but I'd >prefer they wern't. As long as we don't get any subjective stuff like they >only get returned if the prop is withdrawn cos it clashes with a different >prop. I agree that the way they are phrased now commodities are paid at submission. I agree this is probably the correct way of doing it. I'm attemptin to allow retraction after activity, and set it so that if a prop is retracted BEFORE it becomes active (for any reason, the clashing was just one example of why it might be useful) then the commodities are refunded. An now, without further ado, the current list of managed items. I will have a web page up for this information at some point (since I find web pages fairly easy to keep up to date :) JT Traub 10 Acres of farmland 1 Word Mine 1 Terminology Mine 3 Words 3 Terms 1 Idea(from state mines) Philo 10 Acres of farmland 1 Word Mine 1 Terminology Mine 3 Words 3 Terms Henry Towsner 10 Acres of farmland 1 Idea Mine 1 Terminology Mine 3 Ideas 3 Terms Lambda 10 Acres of farmland 1 Idea Mine 1 Word Mine 3 Ideas 3 Words The Kid 10 Acres of farmland 1 Idea mine 1 Word Mine 3 Ideas 3 Words Ember 10 Acres of farmland 1 Word Mine 1 Terminology Mine 3 Words 3 Terms Narf 10 Acres of farmland 1 Idea Mine 1 Terminology Mine 3 Ideas 3 Terms The Gingham Wearer 10 Acres of farmland 1 Idea Mine 1 Word Mine 3 Ideas 3 Words AKA The Wiz 10 Acres of farmland 1 Word Mine 1 Terminology Mine 3 Words 3 Terms --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 08:52:04 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22130 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:52:02 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00904 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.0057593A ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:54:04 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.0055781A.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:55:51 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 29 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I note that I believe it's been greater than 14 days since any of Narf, >The Gingham Wearer, and AKA The Wiz have made any game action, voted or >said anything publicaaly, and therefore they should be expelled. Sorry, have to disagree with you here. Narf last posted to mailing list on 1st June (9 days ago) and AKAThe Wiz on 28th May (13 days ago) and are not yet expelled. TGW however has been inactive since 19th May (22 days) and so, by rule 2-0-0, has ceased to be a player of MacroNomic. As I understand the wording of the rules, he ceased to be a played as soon as you 'noted it to the MacroNomic public' and so your later assignment of mines and commodities to him never happened. I think I've got all that right. Anyone feel free to disagree...... >An now, without further ado, the current list of managed items. >I will have a web page up for this information at some point (since I find >web pages fairly easy to keep up to date :) D'you want to put this in a place where more than one of us can access this? I've put a page on on angelfire we could use if you want: http://www.angelfire.com/mn/macronomic. At the moment I've just copied a couple of pages across from Philo's site (so most of the links don't work). If people think it's a good idea to have a site where each Sec can access it to update the information that they control, then we can keep it. Otherwise, I'll ditch it. -- The Kid From dankna@bergen.org Wed Jun 10 09:01:17 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from vangogh.bergen.org (vangogh.bergen.org [168.229.3.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22167 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:01:15 -0700 Received: from vangogh.bergen.org (vangogh.bergen.org [168.229.3.10]) by vangogh.bergen.org (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via SMTP id MAA03885 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:06:38 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:06:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "A.K.A. TheWiz" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <8025661F.0055781A.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 30 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dankna@bergen.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net > I think I've got all that right. Anyone feel free to disagree...... I am leaving macronomic. NRn has just reached critical mass and become interesting. (JUST, within the past half-hour.) -- it is my intent to stay on the mailing list for a bit. By way of disagreement. ___Dan_Knapp____The_Mauve_Baron______________________Beep Blip Bonk_______ http://users.bergen.org/~dankna GCS/M d? s: a---:+++ C++++ U++ !P L+ !E W-- N o K !w !O M+ PS+ PE+++ Y PGP- !t !5 !X R- tv-- b++++ DI D---- G++>-- e !h !r y rec.games.int-fiction, rec.arts.int-fiction, ftp.gmd.de/~if-archive If you don't have anything to say, get off the soapbox. From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 09:07:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22220 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:07:33 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA01204 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.0058C42D ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:09:33 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.0058A332.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:11:22 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 31 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >> I think I've got all that right. Anyone feel free to disagree...... > > I am leaving macronomic. NRn has just reached critical mass and become >interesting. (JUST, within the past half-hour.) -- it is my intent to stay on >the mailing list for a bit. > By way of disagreement. Ok. Have a nice day now..... -- The Kid - and then there were seven.... From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 09:08:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22240 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:08:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:08:44 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <8025661F.0055781A.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 32 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>I note that I believe it's been greater than 14 days since any of Narf, >>The Gingham Wearer, and AKA The Wiz have made any game action, voted or >>said anything publicaaly, and therefore they should be expelled. > >Sorry, have to disagree with you here. Narf last posted to mailing list on >1st June (9 days ago) and AKAThe Wiz on 28th May (13 days ago) and are not >yet expelled. TGW however has been inactive since 19th May (22 days) and >so, by rule 2-0-0, has ceased to be a player of MacroNomic. As I understand >the wording of the rules, he ceased to be a played as soon as you 'noted it >to the MacroNomic public' and so your later assignment of mines and >commodities to him never happened. Thanks for correcting me on Narf and AKAThe Wiz. I did however do the assignments prior to the noting, merely 'included the file below' >I think I've got all that right. Anyone feel free to disagree...... Only disagreement is on the order of the actions, but, that's trivial. >>An now, without further ado, the current list of managed items. >>I will have a web page up for this information at some point (since I find >>web pages fairly easy to keep up to date :) > >D'you want to put this in a place where more than one of us can access >this? I've put a page on on angelfire we could use if you want: >http://www.angelfire.com/mn/macronomic. At the moment I've just copied a >couple of pages across from Philo's site (so most of the links don't work). >If people think it's a good idea to have a site where each Sec can access >it to update the information that they control, then we can keep it. >Otherwise, I'll ditch it. I don't think multiple people need to access/update the same information, and it's easier for me to keep them on machiens that I control/have local access to which is where I was planning on placing it. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 09:13:53 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22291 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:13:51 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA01271 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.0059571B ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:15:50 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.00596783.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:17:39 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 33 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I don't think multiple people need to access/update the same information, Sec of Truth, Sec of Friendship and Sec of Trade all need to update information surely? --- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 09:28:08 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22349 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:28:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:28:08 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] AKAThe Wiz leaving Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 34 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net With his leaving, the 10 Acres of farmland and the mines revert to the state. 3 words and 3 terms become mine. I ask that the following CFJ be submitted CFJ Statement: JT recieved 3 Ideas and 3 Words from The Gingham Wearer when the Gingham Wearer was expelled from the game. Reasoning: In the message i sent, I said the following: >Argh.. I hadn't even noticed that I'd becom SoTrade. I now have the info >together and will include it at the bottom of this mail. At this point the assignments of mines and commodities had been done, but I chose, due to length, to attach the item to the end of the mail instead of placing it inline. I then continued: >I note that I believe it's been greater than 14 days since any of Narf, >The Gingham Wearer, and AKA The Wiz have made any game action, voted or >said anything publicaaly, and therefore they should be expelled. Thus, at the time of my noting the idleness of the players in question, I had already completed the assignments. END CFJ Regardless of the above CFJ, I offer to trade 1 Term or 1 Word for 1 Idea, and will accept the first 2 such offers I recieve. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 09:34:28 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22382 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:34:27 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <8025661F.00596783.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 35 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>I don't think multiple people need to access/update the same information, > >Sec of Truth, Sec of Friendship and Sec of Trade all need to update >information surely? They have to update different portions of the game state. For instance, only the SOTrade tracks when commodities change hands or are gained/lost. Granted, he has to rely on information provided by the SoFriendship and the SoTruth, but those two should not be modifying the information under the control of the SoTrade. I would rather keep the information that *I* track on machines that I have control of (for backup policies, etc). I see nothing wrong with having the game state spread over various web pages/sites, and in fact think that's good so that if one server/backbone link goes kaput, the entire game state isn't affected, but only some small portion of it. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 10 09:49:58 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22444 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:49:54 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA01764 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825661F.005BF574 ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:44:26 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025661F.005B3BA1.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:46:12 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] AKAThe Wiz leaving X-archive-position: 36 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >[CFJ] Ok, I follow your reasoning, and I'm certainly not going to disagree with you. Who is SoJ now anyway? >Regardless of the above CFJ, I offer to trade 1 Term or 1 Word for 1 Idea, >and will accept the first 2 such offers I recieve. Sure, I'll swap you my 2 Terms for your 2 Ideas -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 09:54:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22470 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:54:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:54:29 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] AKAThe Wiz leaving In-Reply-To: <8025661F.005B3BA1.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 37 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>[CFJ] >Ok, I follow your reasoning, and I'm certainly not going to disagree with >you. Who is SoJ now anyway? At least according to the web page, SoJustice is henry Towsner. The reason I submitted the CFJ is to make sure it's clear bcause your reading of it is certainly reasonable. >>Regardless of the above CFJ, I offer to trade 1 Term or 1 Word for 1 Idea, >>and will accept the first 2 such offers I recieve. > >Sure, I'll swap you my 2 Terms for your 2 Ideas Done and done. My proposals shall arrive shortly. [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 10 09:58:23 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22514 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:58:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] AKAThe Wiz leaving In-Reply-To: <8025661F.005B3BA1.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 38 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: > > >>[CFJ] >Ok, I follow your reasoning, and I'm certainly not going to disagree with >you. Who is SoJ now anyway? > >>Regardless of the above CFJ, I offer to trade 1 Term or 1 Word for 1 Idea, >>and will accept the first 2 such offers I recieve. > >Sure, I'll swap you my 2 Terms for your 2 Ideas Hrm.. I actually hope you meant this the other way because you have ideas and not terms. However, as you stated it, this trade didn't occur. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Wed Jun 10 10:48:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22774 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:48:18 -0700 Received: by mail with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3-Server (v2.10) for at Wed, 10 Jun 98 18:46:28 +0200 Message-ID: <357EB9F9.6ABCBC89@docnet.de> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:53:13 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Hmmm... (was:Votes) References: <8025661F.0058A332.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 39 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Andy T Harrison schrieb: > >> I think I've got all that right. Anyone feel free to disagree...... > > > > I am leaving macronomic. NRn has just reached critical mass and become > >interesting. (JUST, within the past half-hour.) -- it is my intent to > stay on > >the mailing list for a bit. > > By way of disagreement. I'm staying, although I'm also active in NRn, and part of thatcritical mass. > Ok. Have a nice day now..... > -- > The Kid - and then there were seven.... Maybe we should advertise? You five up there are pretty safe from getting caught by some newcomers, and I don't mind, as long as my loyalty keeps growing. Btw, shouldn't I have 25+15=40 loyalty, or did I lose some? Ember From tows@earthlink.net Wed Jun 10 14:08:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23497 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:08:40 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.178] (ip178.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.178]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28315 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:32:05 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] My votes and correction Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dragoncat.net id OAA23497 X-archive-position: 41 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >73: LOYAL (Even though it destroys all of mathematics and lets 1=2) No it doesn't. The laws of mathematics are taken to be the same (like English words) except where the rules say they differ. Since division by 0 is defined to be 0, the laws about multiplication change so that 1‚2. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From tows@earthlink.net Wed Jun 10 14:08:48 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23499 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:08:46 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.178] (ip178.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.178]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28396 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:33:26 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes and more X-archive-position: 40 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I certainly think a 'codable' nomic is interesting. I also know that it >has been proposed in the past on the Nomic BB (cf discussions about Perl >Nomic and (if I recall) Java Nomic) Indeed it has. I think I even have the definition for Java Nomic on my hard drive somewhere. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 10 14:55:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23719 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:55:31 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA03087; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a005.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10838; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:55:03 -0400 Date: 10 Jun 98 17:59:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] My votes and correction From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dragoncat.net id OAA23719 X-archive-position: 42 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 4:32 PM, Towsner wrote: >(like English words) except where the rules say they differ. Since >division by 0 is defined to be 0, the laws about multiplication change so >that 1Ç2. What? What does 1C2 mean? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Wed Jun 10 17:40:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24363 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:40:52 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.229] (ip229.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.229]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29296 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:40:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:52:18 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] My votes and correction X-archive-position: 43 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >What? What does 1C2 mean? That'll teach me to use fancy characters in my e-mail. That was a not equal sign. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From atharrison@wavetek.com Thu Jun 11 00:56:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26288 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:56:30 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA07566 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256620.002BCAE5 ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:58:19 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256620.002B572A.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:00:07 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] AKAThe Wiz leaving X-archive-position: 44 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>Sure, I'll swap you my 2 Terms for your 2 Ideas > >Hrm.. I actually hope you meant this the other way because you have ideas >and not terms. Hah! That's just typical, isn't it. At first I hadn't put in the 'my and 'your', but just before I sent it I thought I'd put them cos I tought it might be a bit ambiguous. It seems I put them in the wrong way round. Ok, I'll swap my 2 Ideas for your 2 Terms. -- The Kid - I did get it right that time, didn't I....? From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 06:43:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27251 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:43:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] AKAThe Wiz leaving In-Reply-To: <80256620.002B572A.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 45 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >Hah! That's just typical, isn't it. At first I hadn't put in the 'my and >'your', but just before I sent it I thought I'd put them cos I tought it >might be a bit ambiguous. It seems I put them in the wrong way round. Ok, >I'll swap my 2 Ideas for your 2 Terms. *grin* I've made mistakes like that. Regardless. the trade is agreed to and thus happens. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 11 13:44:11 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28919 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:44:08 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA25010; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a016.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03423; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:41:56 -0400 Date: 11 Jun 98 16:46:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 46 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I believe that we each have one more of each kind of proprosal part. The proposal that created proposal mines said that "For each player, one Idea, one Word, and one Term are placed under the management of that player." So really, you didn't have to use the state mines to make a proposal. Just thought I'd point that out. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 13:53:33 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28972 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:53:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:53:32 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 47 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 11 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >I believe that we each have one more of each kind of proprosal part. The >proposal that created proposal mines said that "For each player, one Idea, >one Word, and one Term are placed under the management of that player." So >really, you didn't have to use the state mines to make a proposal. Just >thought I'd point that out. You are in fact correct, and my apologies. Everyone does in fact have one more of each type of commodity. (I will reflect this in my records shortly). --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 15:08:41 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29343 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:08:36 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.14] (ip14.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.14]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13622 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:11:56 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] CFJ X-archive-position: 48 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net The following CFJ has been called by JT, and will be judged by The Kid Statement: JT recieved 3 Ideas and 3 Words from The Gingham Wearer when the Gingham Wearer was expelled from the game. Reasoning: In the message i sent, I said the following: >Argh.. I hadn't even noticed that I'd becom SoTrade. I now have the info >together and will include it at the bottom of this mail. At this point the assignments of mines and commodities had been done, but I chose, due to length, to attach the item to the end of the mail instead of placing it inline. I then continued: >I note that I believe it's been greater than 14 days since any of Narf, >The Gingham Wearer, and AKA The Wiz have made any game action, voted or >said anything publicaaly, and therefore they should be expelled. Thus, at the time of my noting the idleness of the players in question, I had already completed the assignments. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 15:27:05 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from accessone.com ([198.68.191.19]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29436 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:25:35 -0700 Received: from [204.250.149.68] (firewall.humongous.com [204.250.149.68]) by accessone.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/PIH) with SMTP id PAA11396 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <358058DD.FF84FA2F@dragoncat.net> Received: from [192.168.1.33] by [204.250.149.68] via smtpd (for mailhost.accessone.com [198.68.191.19]) with SMTP; 11 Jun 1998 22:20:05 UT Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:23:25 -0700 From: Joseph Traub Organization: Cat and Dragon Enterprises Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Proposals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 49 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net SoTruth: Here are the proposals that I am submitting. PROPOSAL Silent Voting Amend Section 3-0 as follows. Replace the following VOTING delimited text VOTING A player may change eir vote on an Active proposal by notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. VOTING with the following PRIVATE_VOTE delimited text PRIVATE_VOTE A player may change eir vote on an Active Referendum by privately notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. Votes on any given type of Referendum remain private until the Referendum becomes Inactive, at which point they are revealed publically, unless a specific subclass of Referendum specifies otherwise. PRIVATE_VOTE This makes referendums and voting be private by default, which I think is a good thing. It also means one cannot predict the way a proposal will go in advance and thus change vote (if voting in a specific direction ever gains any meaning). It of course (by the definition of private notification) doesn't stop someone from voluntarily making their vote public if they desire. END PROPOSAL PROPOSAL Real Retractions Amend Section 3-1 by replacing the following OLD delimited text OLD If a player has submitted a proposal and the Secretary of Truth has not yet distributed it, that player may retract that proposal. The Secretary of Truth shall not distribute a retracted proposal, and it will not become Active. OLD with the following RETRACT delimited text RETRACT Any player may retract a proposal that they have submitted that is either Active or PreActive. If the proposal is Active, then all votes already cast on the Proposal are discarded, the proposal immediately becomes Inactive, and the proposer loses 3 Loyalty points. If the Proposal is PreActive, then the proposer loses no loyalty points, the proposal commodities used in the construction of the proposal are refunded tothe proposer, and the proposal becomes InActive. The Secretary of Truth will not distribute a proposal that becomes InActive in this manner. RETRACT I will note that this proposal doesn't really do much other than effectively third the penalty for a failing proposal unless the hidden voting proposal passes. However, that in and of itself isn't a horrible thing. I would hope that the two together would encourage people to think through their proposals, but still have a way to get rid of them if they really need to for some reason. END PROPOSAL PROPOSAL Secretary of Communication Create a rule, Section 1-2, titled Secretary of Communication with the following BREAKER_19 delimited text BREAKER_19 The Secretary of Communication is responsible for maintaining and updating the official mailing list. The Secretary of Communication may change the address of this mailing list by a public communication. At the time of that notification, the new address of the mailing list, which must of course be a valid email address, shall replace all occurances of macronomic@dragoncat.net within this rule. Mail sent to this mailing list, or sent to every player individually (and verifiably), is the only mail which shall count as Public Communication as per section 0-2. The official mailing list is macronomic@dragoncat.net. BREAKER_19 END PROPOSAL --JT From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 16:21:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29857 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:21:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:21:51 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 50 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: > Done. In other words, I'll give you a term for a word. However 5 >acres seems a bit much. After all, you're offering 1/6 of your wealth for >1/2 of someone else's. How about 2 acres? Actually, Henry, I'll offer you 1 word a week in exchange for 1 idea each week. Also, don't forget that as RP we get the state mines one a week for free :) Also, please try and remember to send mail to macronomic@dragoncat.net, the message that I'm replying to came from mn@poverty. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 17:24:27 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA30093 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:24:25 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.94] (ip103.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.103]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08184 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <358058DD.FF84FA2F@dragoncat.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:27:38 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Proposals X-archive-position: 51 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >SoTruth: Here are the proposals that I am submitting. I don't believe any of these are proposals. The rules say proposals must be distributed "personally" -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 17:24:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA30099 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:24:29 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.94] (ip103.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.103]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08222 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:28:26 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades X-archive-position: 52 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Actually, Henry, I'll offer you 1 word a week in exchange for 1 idea each >week. >Also, don't forget that as RP we get the state mines one a week for free Hmm. Weighing values...it's a deal. Which reminds me, I operate the state mines for 1 word. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 17:29:00 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA30132 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:29:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 53 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>SoTruth: Here are the proposals that I am submitting. > I don't believe any of these are proposals. The rules say >proposals must be distributed "personally" Doh!.. I'd missed that referendums defined themselves as personally distributed. (cases like these are where I hate OO rules :) SoTruth: they will be in your mailbox shortly. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 17:33:07 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA30169 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:33:07 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 54 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>Actually, Henry, I'll offer you 1 word a week in exchange for 1 idea each >>week. >>Also, don't forget that as RP we get the state mines one a week for free > Hmm. Weighing values...it's a deal. Which reminds me, I operate >the state mines for 1 word. Okay, would you like to do the first trade this week or next week? --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 18:37:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA30444 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:37:27 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.170] (ip170.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.170]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09869 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:40:41 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades X-archive-position: 55 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Okay, would you like to do the first trade this week or next week? I'm leaning towards next week, but if you'd like it this week, that's fine. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 11 19:25:04 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA30609 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:25:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:25:04 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 56 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>Okay, would you like to do the first trade this week or next week? > I'm leaning towards next week, but if you'd like it this week, >that's fine. Nah.. I'm set for this week which is why I asked :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Fri Jun 12 00:45:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA31712 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:45:47 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA17332 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256621.002AD7BA ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:47:57 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256621.002A7BD0.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:49:48 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ X-archive-position: 57 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >The following CFJ has been called by JT, and will be judged by The Kid >Statement: >JT recieved 3 Ideas and 3 Words from The Gingham Wearer when >the Gingham Wearer was expelled from the game. I judge that to be TRUE, agreeing with JT's reasoning. (However, as it has just been noted that we all should have had one more of each commodity each, I would say that neither TGW or The Wiz had these commodities when they left (even though they should have) and so JT doesn't get them.) -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Jun 12 10:02:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00140 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:37 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ In-Reply-To: <80256621.002A7BD0.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 58 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >(However, as it has just been noted that we all should have had one more of >each commodity each, I would say that neither TGW or The Wiz had these >commodities when they left (even though they should have) and so JT >doesn't get them.) Eminently reasonable. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Fri Jun 12 21:39:19 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02471 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:39:17 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA28872; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a002.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA05302; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:38:39 -0400 Date: 13 Jun 98 00:43:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Hmmm... (was:Votes) From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 59 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 12:53 PM, Frank Schmidt wrote: >loyalty keeps growing. Btw, shouldn't I have 25+15=40 loyalty, or >did I lose some? Well, I'm assuming you had 25 to start with. You gained 15 for a passed proposal, but lost 20 for 2 failed props. You also gained 15 for 5 LOYAL votes. If you add this up, it comes out to 35, which is what's on the web page. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 13 10:39:03 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04835 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:39:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:39:03 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Two liasonships that I wish to give away :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 60 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I wish to give (to the first interested player(s)) the following two titles. Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs Seargent of the Occupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters The same player cannot hold both, nor can either be held by the Secretary of Love. First request for either of them is welcome to it. I really do not wish to follow or have to deal with Internomic at all, and these would require it of me :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Sat Jun 13 11:26:01 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05097 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:26:00 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.73] (ip73.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.73]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19968 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:29:40 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Papers X-archive-position: 61 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net My paper on recurring themes has been accepted, making me the first Professor. Sadly, lamda's paper was rejected. Do try again lambda. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From lambda@world.std.com Sat Jun 13 16:57:23 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06068 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:57:19 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA07447; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a004.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25193; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:57:00 -0400 Date: 13 Jun 98 20:01:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Two liasonships that I wish to give away :) From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 62 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 1:39 PM, JT wrote: >I wish to give (to the first interested player(s)) the following two >titles. >Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs >Seargent of the Occupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters I'll take Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs. I think that Philo wanted Seargent of the Ocupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters, so you can dump that on him when he comes back. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 14 00:19:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07809 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:19:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:19:29 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Assets page Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 63 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Okay, the web page listing current player managed objects is up at http://www.nausicaa.net/~jtraub/macro/assets.html Right now it's hand generated, I'll have a script that helps me keep it up to date shortly. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 14 11:03:11 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09740 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:03:08 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA04500; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a008.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14863; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:02:49 -0400 Date: 14 Jun 98 14:07:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Two liasonships that I wish to give away :) From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 64 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 1:39 PM, JT wrote: >I wish to give (to the first interested player(s)) the following two >titles. >Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs >Seargent of the Occupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters I'll take Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs. I think that Philo wanted Seargent of the Ocupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters, so you can dump that on him when he comes back. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 14 11:40:38 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09919 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:40:37 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Two liasonships that I wish to give away :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 65 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 14 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >I'll take Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs. I think that >Philo wanted Seargent of the Ocupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters, >so you can dump that on him when he comes back. I give the ASfMFA to Lambda. Anyone know when Philo will return? --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 14 12:00:12 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09995 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:00:10 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA09712; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a008.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15314; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:59:50 -0400 Date: 14 Jun 98 15:04:21 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] ERROR From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 66 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I hereby issue the following ERROR: Date: June 14 1998 Renumber the section entitled "Treason", whatever it's section number may be, to Section 3-2-2-2-0. Current Votes: Philo: ACCEPT Towsner: ACCEPT JT Traub: ACCEPT Narf: ACCEPT The Kid: ACCEPT Lambda: ACCEPT Ember: ACCEPT Because so many proposals and other things renumber it and disagree on the numbering, this just moves it to the right section once and for all, no matter what else has already happened. The voting period ends on the 21st. By the way, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to make the voting period on ERRORs shorter? After all, they should just be quick fixes, and not take a whole week to pass. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 14 12:13:16 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10041 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:13:14 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA10561; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a008.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA21593; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:13:00 -0400 Date: 14 Jun 98 15:17:31 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] People's votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 67 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net If I'm not mistaken, I still need the votes of Narf, The Kid, and Ember on proposals 69-78. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 14 15:23:29 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10514 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:23:28 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] ERROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 68 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 14 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Because so many proposals and other things renumber it and disagree on the >numbering, this just moves it to the right section once and for all, no >matter what else has already happened. The voting period ends on the 21st. >By the way, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to make the >voting period on ERRORs shorter? After all, they should just be quick >fixes, and not take a whole week to pass. I wouldn't have a problem with lowering it to 2 or 3 days. My only qualm is the precedence factor in which an ERROR could be used to change precedence in such a way as to enable a scam and with default votes being ACCEPT, it might not be noticed in time. 7 days at leasts gives a reasonable chance the people would be able to read through the change carefully if they so desired (it still doesn't ensure against problems, but might help.. who knows). --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Sun Jun 14 18:40:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11287 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:40:44 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.75] (ip75.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.75]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26140 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:00:24 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] ERROR X-archive-position: 69 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Because so many proposals and other things renumber it and disagree on the >numbering, this just moves it to the right section once and for all, no >matter what else has already happened. The voting period ends on the 21st. >By the way, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to make the >voting period on ERRORs shorter? After all, they should just be quick >fixes, and not take a whole week to pass. Yes. I had intended it that way, I just forgot to put it in. I withdraw the proposal regarding that topic. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From tows@earthlink.net Sun Jun 14 18:40:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11290 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:40:45 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.75] (ip75.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.75]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26175 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:01:41 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] ERROR X-archive-position: 70 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I wouldn't have a problem with lowering it to 2 or 3 days. My only qualm >is the precedence factor in which an ERROR could be used to change >precedence in such a way as to enable a scam and with default votes being >ACCEPT, it might not be noticed in time. 7 days at leasts gives a >reasonable chance the people would be able to read through the change >carefully if they so desired (it still doesn't ensure against problems, >but might help.. who knows). Precedence it rarely all that important, and it doesn't take much to reject one. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Jun 15 01:11:53 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12355 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:11:51 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03055; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256624.002EF060 ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:14:42 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: dan@sounds.u-net.com cc: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256624.002C41BF.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:16:36 +0100 Subject: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic X-archive-position: 71 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net We now have a new player: >according to rule 2:0 i have to notify you of my intent to join (i am >doing that now) my name (Aidan McLoughlin) and a nickname (Dan) and my >e-mail address (Dan@sounds.u-net.com) Acording to rule section 2-0, you get 10 acres of farmland, but unfortunately there is currently no way for you to get any mines - you should have been here last week! I've you havn't already done so, I suggest you subscribe to the mailing list (I'm afraid the one on the web page is out of date, you'll need to send mail to macronomic-request@dragoncat.net with the command 'subscribe' in either the subject or the body of the message). Also, the Secretary of Education (Towsner) will need to assign you a professor. At the moment we only have one, which limits the choice a bit :-) Welcome to the game, and Happy Nomicing! -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Jun 15 07:17:51 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13573 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:17:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:17:50 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic In-Reply-To: <80256624.002C41BF.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 72 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >We now have a new player: > >>according to rule 2:0 i have to notify you of my intent to join (i am >>doing that now) my name (Aidan McLoughlin) and a nickname (Dan) and my >>e-mail address (Dan@sounds.u-net.com) Welcome Dan. As Secratary of Trade, you now have your own 10 acres of farmland. I also give (from my own personal stock) 1 Word, 1 Term and 1 Idea and will shortly be proposing something so that new players can actually do something other than vote loyal. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Mon Jun 15 08:31:33 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13790 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:31:28 -0700 Received: by mail with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3-Server (v2.10) for at Mon, 15 Jun 98 17:24:43 +0200 Message-ID: <35853E4F.E6597CAB@docnet.de> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:31:29 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "The People's Republic of Macronomic" Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes 69-78 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 73 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 69: LOYAL, 70: AGAINST, 71: FOR, 72: FOR 73: LOYAL, 74: LOYAL, 75: AGAINST 76: LOYAL, 77: LOYAL, 78: LOYAL Ember From atharrison@wavetek.com Tue Jun 16 01:07:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17571 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:07:33 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA13925 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256625.002C9A77 ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:07:11 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256625.002C7587.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:12:37 +0100 Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes 69-78 X-archive-position: 74 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 69: LOYAL 70: FOR 71: FOR 72: FOR 73: LOYAL 74: LOYAL 75: FOR 76: LOYAL 77: LOYAL 78: LOYAL -- The Kid From atharrison@wavetek.com Tue Jun 16 08:17:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18801 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:17:50 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA17041 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256625.005408D7 ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:17:52 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256625.0054104C.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:23:14 +0100 Subject: [MacroNomic] Treason Rule X-archive-position: 75 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Given the rule about treason: "Publicly declaring one's intent to become a member of the Revolutionary Party is treason, a crime". Does this apply to Proles only, or also to members of the RP. i.e. If an RP member publicly declares their intent to remain an RP member, is it treasonous? Another thing I think should be treasonous is falsely accusing someone of a treasonous act. So if a player is tried for a treasonous act, and found innocent, then whoever accused them has committed a treasonous act. Any takers? -- The Kid From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 16 08:27:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18847 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:27:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:27:19 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Treason Rule In-Reply-To: <80256625.0054104C.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 76 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >Given the rule about treason: "Publicly declaring one's intent to become a >member of the Revolutionary Party is treason, a crime". Does this apply to >Proles only, or also to members of the RP. i.e. If an RP member publicly >declares their intent to remain an RP member, is it treasonous? It cannot be, by definition from Section 3-2-2-2 which seems to be relevant (although it's amusing that treason is not defined as either a criminal or a civil crime, merely as a crime.) and I am assuming that treason is a criminal crime. According to 3-2-2-2, The initiator of a criminal case must be a member of the RP and the accused must be a prole, therefore a member of the RP cannot commit treason (or at least cannot be held accountable for it :) >Another thing I think should be treasonous is falsely accusing someone of a >treasonous act. So if a player is tried for a treasonous act, and found >innocent, then whoever accused them has committed a treasonous act. Any >takers? See abnove, the accuser would have the be a member of the RP, and thus couldn't have the CFJ for treason called against them in this case :) And, since a prole couldn't author a criminal case CFJ...... this is a pointless change. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Tue Jun 16 12:30:04 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19700 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:30:01 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.60] (ip60.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.60]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04791 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <80256625.0054104C.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:33:36 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Treason Rule X-archive-position: 77 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Given the rule about treason: "Publicly declaring one's intent to become a >member of the Revolutionary Party is treason, a crime". Does this apply to >Proles only, or also to members of the RP. i.e. If an RP member publicly >declares their intent to remain an RP member, is it treasonous? > >Another thing I think should be treasonous is falsely accusing someone of a >treasonous act. So if a player is tried for a treasonous act, and found >innocent, then whoever accused them has committed a treasonous act. Any >takers? Treason is a criminal offense. Members of the RP cannot be charge with it. How about a civil crime of slander, which would include incorrectly accusing a player of treason? -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From lambda@world.std.com Tue Jun 16 14:52:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20179 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:52:10 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA06108; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a022.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA21107; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:48:50 -0400 Date: 16 Jun 98 17:52:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 78 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 10:17 AM, JT wrote: >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>We now have a new player: >> >>>according to rule 2:0 i have to notify you of my intent to join (i am >>>doing that now) my name (Aidan McLoughlin) and a nickname (Dan) and my >>>e-mail address (Dan@sounds.u-net.com) > Could someone forward me the original of this email? I seem to be missing it. Also, if Dan wants to vote he will have to do so real soon. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Tue Jun 16 18:13:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20819 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:13:07 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA01435; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a022.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA20687; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:09:52 -0400 Date: 16 Jun 98 21:14:22 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Update From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dragoncat.net id SAA20819 X-archive-position: 79 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Well, here's all of the gamestate I am supposed to administer. You may note that I have created a second ERROR. And JT should note that I have made two proposals, so that I lose 2 of each type of commodity. The Kid should tally up people's loyalties based on their votes and the proposals that have passed. All of the information in this message can also be found on my brand-new MacroNomic website, at . Since this site is still under construction, it contains a few pages which are empty. I will try to finish it as soon as possible. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Here are the new proposals: 79: JT Traub, June 11/16----------------------------------------------- Amend Section 3-0 as follows. Replace the following VOTING delimited text VOTING A player may change eir vote on an Active proposal by notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. VOTING with the following PRIVATE_VOTE delimited text PRIVATE_VOTE A player may change eir vote on an Active Referendum by privately notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. Votes on any given type of Referendum remain private until the Referendum becomes Inactive, at which point they are revealed publically, unless a specific subclass of Referendum specifies otherwise. PRIVATE_VOTE This makes referendums and voting be private by default, which I think is a good thing. It also means one cannot predict the way a proposal will go in advance and thus change vote (if voting in a specific direction ever gains any meaning). It of course (by the definition of private notification) doesn't stop someone from voluntarily making their vote public if they desire. Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: NONE JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE 80: JT Traub, June 11/16----------------------------------------------- Amend Section 3-1 by replacing the following OLD delimited text OLD If a player has submitted a proposal and the Secretary of Truth has not yet distributed it, that player may retract that proposal. The Secretary of Truth shall not distribute a retracted proposal, and it will not become Active. OLD with the following RETRACT delimited text RETRACT Any player may retract a proposal that they have submitted that is either Active or PreActive. If the proposal is Active, then all votes already cast on the Proposal are discarded, the proposal immediately becomes Inactive, and the proposer loses 3 Loyalty points. If the Proposal is PreActive, then the proposer loses no loyalty points, the proposal commodities used in the construction of the proposal are refunded tothe proposer, and the proposal becomes InActive. The Secretary of Truth will not distribute a proposal that becomes InActive in this manner. RETRACT I will note that this proposal doesn't really do much other than effectively third the penalty for a failing proposal unless the hidden voting proposal passes. However, that in and of itself isn't a horrible thing. I would hope that the two together would encourage people to think through their proposals, but still have a way to get rid of them if they really need to for some reason. Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: NONE JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE 81: JT Traub, June 11/16----------------------------------------------- Create a rule, Section 1-2, titled Secretary of Communication with the following BREAKER_19 delimited text BREAKER_19 The Secretary of Communication is responsible for maintaining and updating the official mailing list. The Secretary of Communication may change the address of this mailing list by a public communication. At the time of that notification, the new address of the mailing list, which must of course be a valid email address, shall replace all occurances of macronomic@dragoncat.net within this rule. Mail sent to this mailing list, or sent to every player individually (and verifiably), is the only mail which shall count as Public Communication as per section 0-2. The official mailing list is macronomic@dragoncat.net. BREAKER_19 Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: NONE JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE 83: Henry Towsner, June 13/16------------------------------------------ Create rule 3-2-2-3, named Confessions, and make it read as delimited by INQUISITOR INQUISITOR If a player is found guilty of a crime or is the loser in a civil case then they become convicted. A convicted player loses 2 LOYALTY points for every day they do not confess. A player confesses by publicly stating that they either commited the crime they were convicted of (if they were found GUILTY in a criminal case), wronged the person they were found to have (if they were the accused in a civil case), or wrongly filed the case (if they were the accuser in a civil case). INQUISITOR Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: FOR JT Traub: NONE Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE 84: Henry Towsner, June 13/16------------------------------------------ Create section 3-2-2-1-0, named "Oath Breaking", reading as delimited by LYRE If a player offers to do something and publicly "swears to XXX upon the goodness of the State" where XXX is another player that they will do so then the swearing player has made an oath to XXX. It is a civil crime against XXX to break an oath. LYRE Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: FOR JT Traub: NONE Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE 85: Lambda, June 16/16------------------------------------------------- Create "Section 0-4: Documents" with the following FILES-delimited text: FILES There exist a class of Object known as Documents. Documents may only be created as specified in the rules or in a proposal, and may only be modified as specified in the rules. All Documents are managed by the Secretary of Truth, unless otherwise specified. Documents must consist of either plain ASCII format text or HTML. Anything stated in an officcial Document is considered to be the truth. FILES Insert the following at the beginning of Section 0-1: 'There exists a document known as "the rules of MacroNomic", or "the rules" for short.' Insert the following at the end of the first paragraph of Section 1-0: 'All Secretaries must maintain at least one document which contains the information they are required to manage. Secretaries may create new documents for this purpose, and Secretaries manage any documents that they create.' Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: NONE JT Traub: NONE Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE 86: Lambda, June 16/16------------------------------------------------- Insert the following PAYCHECK-delimited text at the end of Section 5: PAYCHECK For each paper that a player submits, e recieves one proposal commodity of a type of eir choice. PAYCHECK Votes so far: Philo: NONE Towsner: NONE JT Traub: NONE Narf: NONE The Kid: NONE Lambda: FOR Ember: NONE Dan: NONE -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Here are the votes for the old proposals: 69: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: LOYAL (FOR) Lambda: LOYAL (FOR) Ember: LOYAL (FOR) Dan: NONE Result: Passes 70: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: FOR Lambda: FOR Ember: AGAINST Dan: NONE Result: Passes 71: Philo: AGAINST Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: FOR Lambda: FOR Ember: FOR Dan: NONE Result: Passes 72: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: FOR Lambda: FOR Ember: FOR Dan: NONE Result: Passes 73: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: LOYAL (FOR) Lambda: LOYAL (FOR) Ember: LOYAL (FOR) Dan: NONE Result: Passes 74: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: LOYAL (FOR) Lambda: LOYAL (FOR) Ember: LOYAL (FOR) Dan: NONE Result: Passes 75: Philo: AGAINST Towsner: AGAINST JT Traub: AGAINST Narf: NONE The Kid: FOR Lambda: FOR Ember: AGAINST Dan: NONE Result: Fails 76: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: LOYAL (FOR) Lambda: LOYAL (FOR) Ember: LOYAL (FOR) Dan: NONE Result: Passes 77: Philo: AGAINST Towsner: AGAINST JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: LOYAL (AGAINST) Lambda: LOYAL (AGAINST) Ember: LOYAL (AGAINST) Dan: NONE Result: Fails 78: Philo: FOR Towsner: FOR JT Traub: FOR Narf: NONE The Kid: LOYAL (FOR) Lambda: LOYAL (FOR) Ember: LOYAL (FOR) Dan: NONE Result: Passes -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Here are the current ERRORs: 1: Lambda, June 14----------------------------------------------------- Renumber the section entitled "Treason", whatever its section number may be, to Section 3-2-2-2-0. Current Votes: Philo: ACCEPT Towsner: ACCEPT JT Traub: ACCEPT Narf: ACCEPT The Kid: ACCEPT Lambda: ACCEPT Ember: ACCEPT 2: Lambda, June 16----------------------------------------------------- Renumber Section 3-3: Sub-Proposals to Section 3-1-1. Renumber Section 3-4: ERRORs to Section 3-3. Current Votes: Philo: ACCEPT Towsner: ACCEPT JT Traub: ACCEPT Narf: ACCEPT The Kid: ACCEPT Lambda: ACCEPT Ember: ACCEPT -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- And here is the current ruleset: Section 0: Basics This section takes precedence over all other rules. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 0-0: Actions All players must obey the rules in effect at the time of their actions. No rule or gamestate change effected by a rule can have retroactive effect. Any action external to the gamestate which is not prohibited by the rules is permissible. No changes to the gamestate occur except those prescribed by the rules. Created by Proposal 27, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Moved to Section 0-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 0-1: Rules Each rule must have a location within the rules of MacroNomic. A location consists of a series of rational, non-negative, terminating numbers seperated by dashes. The numbers in this location are known as "section numbers." If two rules share the same first section number then they are related. If two rule's locations are the same except for the last section number then they are siblings. If one rule has the same location as another except the first one has additional section numbers tacked on then the second one is an ancestor of the first, and the first is a descendant of the second. If the first has only one additional section number then it is the child of the second, and the second is the parent of the first. Locations are compared by comparing their first section number, if those are the same the second, and so on. If a rule is created without a location being specifed, with a rule number instead of location specified, or with an already taken location specified, it becomes the smallest sibling of 100000-0 not already taken. The Secretary of Truth may relocate descendants of 100000 by announcing the new location to all players. When a rule is relocated, all descendants are relocated as well, changing the changed portion of the ancestor's location, and leaving the rest the same. If a set of possible Section numbers is given for a rule, it shall be given the least Section number of that set which is not already taken by an existing rule. The Secretary of Truth may also give titles to untitled sections by notifying all players of such a change. If any rule has a certain sequence of section numbers beginning its location, then that sequence of section numbers may be given a name. A reference to "this section" means that rule and all rules related to that rule. A reference to "this subsection" means that rule and all its descendants. If two or more rules conflict, the one with the smallest location takes precedence, unless one or more of the conflicting rules consistently claim precedence over or deference to each other, in which case the explicit precedence or deference prevails. Thus, if two rules both claim precedence over each other, or both defer to each other, theirs are inconsistent claims of precedence or deference, respectively, and the location-based rule applies. Created by Proposal 27, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Moved to Section 0-1 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 0-1-0: Conventions Rules under this section are conventions on how certain parts of the rules shall be interpreted in cases where it is confusing or ambiguous. Created by Proposal 73, June 16 1998 Moved to Section 0-1-0 by Proposal 73, June 16 1998 Section 0-1-0-0: Spelling If a word is used in a proposal or rule and although spelled incorrectly the intended word is clear than the mispelled word will be replaced with the correct spelling by the Secretary of Truth. If a player sends a message which contains a mispelled word and the intended word is clear than the message will be treated by all rules except this one as if the word was correctly spelled. Created by Proposal D, April 20 1998 Moved to Section 0-1-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Moved to Section 0-1-1-0 by Proposal 73, June 16 1998 Moved to Section 0-1-0-0 by Proposal 73, June 16 1998 Section 0-1-0-1: English In all cases, the meaning of a term in the rules that is not specified as having a specific meaning shall have the meaning granted to it by common use of the english language and the context surrounding the use of the word. If a term has a specific game defined meaning, that meaning should be as close as possible to the english meaning. [IE: don't choose a word like Baseball to mean the game called soccer] Created by Proposal 73, June 16 1998 Section 0-1-0-2: Math If there is ever the case where a fractional division must be performed and either the numerator or the divisor is 0, then the value of that fraction shall be 0. [I prefer having 0 divisors evaluate to something sane instead of to infinity :)] Created by Proposal 73, June 16 1998 Section 0-2: Accessibility Information may be distributed in three ways. Public distribution means sending the information to all players of MacroNomic. Personal distribution means sending it to either a single player or a specific group of players (such as the RP) and noone outside that group. Private distribution means sending information to a specific group of players, and possibly others as well. Created by Proposal 54, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 0-2 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 0-3: The Macronomic Calendar A Macronomic week begins every Wednesday at 0000UTC. Created by Proposal 68, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 0-3 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 1: Secretaries Section 1-0: Generic Secretaryships There exists the class of Secretaries. A Secretary is always exactly one player. Rules may refer to Secretariatships being vacant, though this reference is to the hypothetical situation in which the Secretariatship is not immediately filled. Any Secretary except for the Secretary of the Central Committee may step down from their position in favor of another consenting player. Renumbered to 42 by Proposal 27, May 19 1998 Renumbered to 0.5 by Proposal 27, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 1-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 1-1: Secretary of the Central Committee There exists the Secretary of the Central Committee. If a member of the Revolutionary Party has a higher loyalty than the Secretary of the Central Committee, if the Secretary of the Central Committee is not a member of the Revolutionary Party, or if there is no Secretary of the Central Committee, a new Secretary of the Central Committee shall be chosen in the following manner: 1. If there is a player in the Revolutionary Party who has a Loyalty greater than all other players, that player shall become the Secretary of the Central Committee. 2. Otherwise, if there is a player in the Revolutionary Party who has a Loyalty greater than all other players not in the Revolutionary Party, that player shall become the Secretary of the Central Committee. 3. Otherwise, if there is a Secretary of the Central Committee, e will randomly select one player from the members of the Revolutionary Party tied for the greatest Loyalty, and the selected player shall become the Secretary of the Central Committee 4. Otherwise, the member of the Revolutionary Party whose nickname is lexicographically first shall become the Secretary of the Central Committee. Renumbered to 42 by Proposal 27, May 19 1998 Renumbered to 0.5 by Proposal 27, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 1-1 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 2: Players Section 2-0: Players The Secretary of Friendship is responsible for tracking who the players are, and which are members of the Revolutionary Party. A person may become a player by personally notifying the Secretary of Friendship of eir intent to join, eir name, a nickname, (eir nickname is identical to eir true name by default) and an e-mail address. The Secretary of Friendship will then inform all other players of this intent. A player leaves the game by announcing to all players that they intend to do so. When a player joins Macronomic, if there are fewer than 100 acres of farmland being managed by all other players, 10 acres of farmland are placed under the management of the incoming player. When a player leaves, all acres of farmland and Proposal Mines e managed become unmanaged, and all Proposal Commodities e managed become managed by the SoCC; if the leaving player is SoCC, then the Proposal Commodities are placed under the management of the new SoCC. Amended by Proposal B, April 20 1998 Moved to Section 2-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 54, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 62, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 68, June 9 1998 Section 2-0-0: Expulsion If a player has not voted or otherwise taken any game action or made any statement to the Macronomic public for fourteen consecutive 24-hour periods, and a player other than that player notes this to the Macronomic public, the former player shall cease to be a player of Macronomic. Created by Proposal 16, May 12 1998 Moved to Section 2-0-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 2-1: Loyalty Defined All players will have a loyalty, tracked by the Secretary of Friendship. Any player with a loyalty lower than 0 will have eir loyalty set to 0. Any member of the Revolutionary Party with a loyalty lower than 100 will have eir loyalty set to 100. Amended by Proposal 15, May 12 1998 Amended by Proposal 30, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 2-1 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 2-2: The Revolutionary Party The old order having been overthrown, Macronomic will now be guided by the Revolutionary Party. At all times there will be three members of the Revolutionary Party unless there are fewer than three players. Should there be fewer than three members of the Revolutionary Party and there be a Proletarian Secretary of the Proletariat, the Secretary of the Proletariat shall become a member of the Revolutionary Party If a player who is not a member of the Revolutionary Party is at least twice as loyal as a member of the Revolutionarty Party, then they may replace that member of the Revolutionary Party by privately notifying the Secretary of Friendship of such a change. Amended by Proposal 15, May 12 1998 Moved to Section 2-2 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 62, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 70, June 16 1998 Section 2-3: Proles A Proletarian (or just 'Prole') is defined as a player of Macronomic who is not a member of the Revolutionary Party. Amended by Proposal 15, May 12 1998 Amended by Proposal 30, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 2-3 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 2-3-0: Secretary of the Proletariat There exists the Secretary of the Proletariat. If there are Proles, and one of the following conditions exist -- if a Prole has a higher loyalty than the Secretary of the Proletariat, if the Secretary of the Proletariat is a member of the Revolutionary Party, or if there is no Secretary of the Proletariat -- a new Secretary of the Proletariat shall be chosen in the following manner: 1. If there is a Prole who has a Loyalty greater than all other Proles', that player shall become the Secretary of the Proletariat. 2. Otherwise, if there is a Secretary of the Central Committee, e will randomly select one of the Proles tied for the greatest Loyalty, and the selected player shall become the Secretary of the Proletariat 3. Otherwise, the Prole whose nickname is lexicographically first shall become the Secretary of the Proletariat. Otherwise, if there are no Proles, then the Secretary of the Proletariat is the same Player as the Secretary of the Central Committee. Amended by Proposal 15, May 12 1998 Amended by Proposal 30, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 2-3-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 2-4: Winning Section 2-4-0: Winning Conditions Section 2-4-0-1: Winning by Loyalty If the Loyalty score of exactly one player is greater than 1000, e is said to have won the current round of Macronomic and is considered to be the Winning Player. Created by Proposal 24, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 30, June 2 1998 Moved to Section 2-4-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 2-4-1: Upon Winning When a player is considered to be the Winning Player, the following steps occur in order. € a) The game is paused so that no actions except as defined in this list occur. € b) The Winning Player may add a new paragraph of no more than 50 words to the "History of MacroNomic". € c) The Winning Player names two other players. € d) These three players become members of the New Revolution. € e) All players who were members of the Revolutionary Party are no longer members of the Revolutionary Party. € f) All players have their Loyalty set to 0 except members of the New Revolution who have their Loyalty set to 100. € g) All members of the New Revolution are considered to be Members of the Revolutionary Party and no longer members of the New Revolution. € h) The game continues with the new game state. It is not possible to be a member of the new Revolution except as defined in this rule. This rule takes precedence over any rule with which it conflicts. Created by Proposal 24, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 36, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 2-4-1 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3: Referenda Section 3-0: Generic Referenda There exists the class of Referenda (singular: Referendum). All referenda which exist must belong to a subclass of referenda, which are defined elsewhere. Rules that define subclasses of referenda may modify any or all of the default properties of subclasses of referenda and referenda themselves, which are as follows: The Accountant of a subclass of referenda is the Secretary of the Central Committee. A Referendum is created when any player personally sends a body of text clearly labelled as a particular subclass of referendum to the Accountant of that subclass. When a Referendum is created, it receives the least positive integer not previously assigned to an referendum of its subclass. A Referendum may only be in one of three States: Preactive, Active or Inactive. When created, a Referendum is Preactive. Within 7 days of its creation, the Accountant of the Subclass of a Referendum must distribute the Referendum to all players, and when this occurs, it becomes Active. Exactly 7 days after a Referendum becomes Active, it becomes Inactive. Each player has a Vote on each Referendum. Valid votes are FOR, AGAINST, and NONE. When a Referendum is created, every players' vote on that referendum is NONE. A player may change eir vote on an Active proposal by notifying the Accountant of the Subclass of that Referendum of such a change. Created by Proposal 28, May 19 1998 Moved to Section 3-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 54, June 9 1998 Section 3-1: Proposals Proposals are a subclass of Referenda. The subclass of Proposals has the default properties of a subclass of Referenda, and Proposals have the default properties of Referenda, with the following exceptions: The Accountant of Proposals is the Secretary of Truth. The text of a proposal must explicitly and unambiguously describe one or more changes to the gamestate. A player may not make a proposal unless e has manages of each type of Proposal Commodity. If a player does not manage the materials needed, then e can not make a proposal. The materials are lost by the player constructing the proposal as they are used up in the process. The Secretary of Truth may notify any player during the preactive stage of eir proposal if eir proposal conflicts with any other currently preactive proposal, and how e may change eir proposal to conform with the other. When a proposal becomes inactive, the Secretary of Truth announces all votes and the following steps will be performed by the appropriate officers: 1) If the proposal's author is, when the proposal ceases to be Active, a member of the revolutionary party, each player who voted LOYAL on that proposal will receive three loyalty points and have eir vote changed to the vote made by a majority (a majority is defined for the remainder of the ruleset as strictly greater than one half of a group with the same vote or opinion) of the Revolutionary Party. If no vote was made by a majority of party members, then the players who voted LOYAL will have eir vote changed to what the Secretary of the Central Committee voted. 2) Corresponding to every actual vote on an active proposal a player has, there is a number of Effective Votes on that proposal equal to the number of acres of farmland e manages. All effective votes of a player on a proposal are of the same vote as the actual vote e cast -- ie if the player's vote is FOR on a proposal with 20 acres of vote farm, there are 20 effective FOR votes from that player on that proposal. 3) If there were more effective votes FOR on a proposal than AGAINST, and one of the following two situations obtains: 1) At least one of the members of the Revolutionary Party voted FOR the proposal 2) All of the members of the Revolutionary Party voted NONE on the proposal then the person who made the proposal will receive fifteen loyalty points if e is not a member of the Revolutionary Party, or ten loyalty points if e is. E will also (regardless of whether e is a member of the Revolutionary Party) receive one of each type of Proposal Commodity. The game state will then be changed as specified in the proposal. (Whenever a proposal specifies the creation of a rule without specifying a number for it, the rule receives the least positive integer not previously assigned to a rule.) If the votes do not meet the stated condition, the person who made the proposal will lose ten loyalty points. 4) All players who voted NONE on that proposal will lose ten loyalty points. If a player has submitted a proposal and the Secretary of Truth has not yet distributed it, that player may retract that proposal. The Secretary of Truth shall not distribute a retracted proposal, and it will not become Active. Amended by Proposal A, April 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 8, May 5 1998 Amended by Proposal 9, May 5 1998 Amended by Proposal 17, May 12 1998 Amended by Proposal 21, May 12 1998 Amended by Proposal 28, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 30, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 33, May 26 1998 Moved to Section 3-1 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 68, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 71, June 16 1998 Section 3-1-0: Votes The set of legal votes on a Proposal is FOR, AGAINST, LOYAL, and NONE. A vote of LOYAL may not be cast on a proposal that is made by a Prole. If it is, it will be changed to NONE. A member of the Revolutionary Party may not vote LOYAL; if eir vote is LOYAL, eir vote is changed to NONE. When a proposal is created, the vote of the player who made it is initially FOR; the vote of every other player is initially NONE. Amended by Proposal 7, May 5 1998 Amended by Proposal 28, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 44, June 2 1998 Moved to Section 3-1-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2: Justice Section 3-2-0: Generic Trials A trial is a subclass of referenda, which may be subclassed further, changing its attributes. The accountant of a subclass of trial is the Secretary of Justice. Only the judge or judges have votes on a trial. A trial has a single judge randomly selected from all players who did not initiate it. Valid votes are TRUE and FALSE. If all judges have votes on a trial then it becomes inactive immediately. There are no criteria for the vote. In addition to voting, judges may offer reasoning to support their vote. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2-1: Calls for Judgement A CfJ is a subclass of trial. A Call for Judgement must include a statement, and preferably reasoning to support it. The decision on the Call for Judgement is considered to be the correct interpretation of the rules until a new Call for Judgement overrides it, or the relevant rules change. A Call for Judgement should be decided on the basis of, in order of priority, the text of the rules, the spirit of the rules, and game custom. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2-2: Cases A case is a subclass of trial which may be subclassed further, changing its default attributes. A case has an accused player, which may be any player, the name of a crime defined in the rules, and optionally, reasoning. A case has three randomly selected judges, none of whom may be the initiator or the accused. A case may not be called if there are fewer than five players. A case has two penalty referenda which are created with it, the Penalty for the Accused and the Penalty for the Accuser. These are children of the case. The criteria for a case are, in no particular order, the text of the rules and the interests of the state. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2-2-0: Penalties Penalties are a subclass of referenda. The accountant for penalties is the Secretary of Justice. Penalties are created and change states along with their parent cases. The only players who may vote on a penalty are those who can vote on its parent case. Possible votes are any specification of a loss of LOYALTY, expulsion, and the loss of voting rights on one or more proposals. Instead of the inactive state, a penalty becomes either accepted or rejected, as specified by its parent. When a penalty becomes accepted, if a majority of those able to vote on it voted the same way, then they appropriate Secretaries should carry out the penalty. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2-2-1: Civil Cases A civil case is a subclass of case. A civil case may only be called on a civil crime. The possible votes are PLAINTIFF and DEFENDANT. One judge of the case should be a randomly selected member of the Revolutionary Party, the other two should be Proles, however none of them may be the accused or the initiator. If there are fewer than two proles not involved in the case, more than one judge may be a member of the Revolutionary Party. If the result is PLAINTIFF, the Penalty for the Accused becomes accepted and the Penalty for the Defendant becomes rejected. If the result is DEFENDANT the reverse happens. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2-2-2: Criminal Cases A criminal case is a subclass of case. A criminal case may only be called on a criminal crime. The initiator of a criminal case must be a member of the Revolutionary Party, the accused must be a prole. The possible votes are GUILTY and INNOCENT. Two judges are the members of the Revolutionary Party who are not the initiator, the other is a Prole other than the accused. A criminal case does not have a Penalty for the Accuser. If the result is GUILTY, the penalty for the Accuser becomes accepted, otherwise it becomes rejected. Created by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Section 3-2-3: Treason Publicly declaring one's intent to become a member of the Revolutionary Party is treason, a crime. Created by Proposal 52, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 78, June 16 1998 Section 3-3: Sub-Proposals A sub-proposal is a subclass of referenda. The Secretary of Truth is the Accountant for sub-proposals. They may only be created when a proposal defines one, and they are created and change states along with that proposal. NONE is always a legal vote for a sub-proposal, and a proposal which defines a sub-proposal must define at least two more. When a proposal which has a sub-proposal is accepted, the sub-proposal is also accepted. In any other circumstances, the sub-proposal simply becomes inactive. If a sub-proposal is accepted (thereby becoming inactive) then the winning possibility is selected. The winning possibility for the sub-proposal is the vote other than NONE which received the most votes, and the one listed first in the proposal if there is more than one; instead of this method a the proposal may specify a different way in which the winning possibiility (WP) is determined. Any instruction within the proposal which are conditional on the selected WP should then be treated as if they were part of a proposal accepted without a sub-proposal. Created by Proposal 55, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 3-3 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 3-4: ERRORs An Edict for the Reordering and Reorganization of the Rules is a subclass of referenda. ERRORs may only created by the Secretary of Truth, who is the accountant for this type of referenda. The legal votes for an ERROR are ACCEPT and REJECT. All player's votes are set to ACCEPT when an ERROR is created. When an ERROR becomes inactive, it takes effect if and only if all players voted ACCEPT. An ERROR may only contain instruction to move paragraphs from one rule to another, create new (empty) rules, rename rules, and relocate rules. Created by Proposal 57, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 3-4 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 4: Foreign Affairs Section 4-0: Internomic The Secretary of Love will be Macronomic's Liaison to Internomic. Voting on Internomic proposals will be determined by a majority of the Revolutionary Party, if a majority opinion exists. Any player may make a proposal to Internomic by privately submitting it to the Secretary of Love and clearly indicating that it is to be sent to Internomic. If MacroNomic is selected to judge an Internomic CFJ then it should be submitted to the Revolutionary Party. The Revolutionary Party will determine the verdict by a majority vote, and the Secretary of Love will be responsible for writing reasoning for the verdict and submitting it to Internomic. Amended by Proposal 20, May 12 1998 Moved to Section 4-0 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 54, June 9 1998 Section 4-1: Trade The Secretary of Economics is MacroNomic's Customs Officer. If MacroNomic is not a member of the ITA, the Secretary of Love should request entrance unless MacroNomic's request was previously denied. The State owns all things imported from other nomics. The Secretary of Economics should reject all conditional trade offers and accept all nonconditional trade offers. Created by Proposal 76, June 16 1998 Section 4-2: Republics MicroNomic and Pnomic are subject republics to MacroNomic. As such they receive a nominal independance, and should request entry into Internomic. The liaison for MicroNomic is the Assistant Secretary for MicroNomic Foreign Affairs, the liaison for Pnomic is the Seargent of the Occupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters. Both positions are Secretaries, and none can be held by the same player as the Secretary of Love or each other, unless multiple ones are held by the SoCC. Both positions vote the same way as the Secretary of Love, and all other decisions are handled the same way they would be by the Secretary of Love. Created by Proposal 58, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 4-2 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 5: Education The University of MacroNomic is a branch of the Government which is dedicated to educating citizens of MacroNomic and other nomics of the glory of MacroNomic, as well as enlarging the size of MacroNomic. The Secretary of the University is responsible for the University. When a player joins MacroNomic the Secretary of the University assignes them a random, non-teaching professor, unless there are no non-teaching professors or the player requested a specific professor. If the entering player requested a specific professor, and that professor is non-teaching, then that professor will be assigned to the student. When a player is assigned a professor then that professor becomes a teaching professor, and that player becomes eir student. The professor is expected to help the student learn about MacroNomic and how to play until the professor publicly declares that the student has graduated. Any player who has been a student for a whole month graduates immediately. When a student graduates, e ceases to be a student and eir professor becomes a non-teaching professor. Papers are a subclass of Referenda. The subclass of Papers has the default properties of a subclass of Referenda, and Papers have the default properties of Referenda, with the following exceptions: The Accountant of Papers is the Secretary of the University. A Paper can be in one of four states: Preactive, Active, Active2, and Inactive. While a Paper is Active, only members of the Revolutionary Party may change eir votes on it. They are encouraged to vote based on whether the text of the Paper "glorifies and enhances the image and reputation of MacroNomic". If, 7 days after a Paper becomes Active, there are more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it from the members of the Revolutionary Party, it becomes Active2; otherwise, it becomes Inactive. While a Paper is Active2, all players may change eir votes on it. They are encouraged to vote based on whether the text of the Paper successfully "enhances the understanding of MacroNomic or nomic as a whole". If, 7 days after a Paper becomes Active2, there are more FOR votes than AGAINST votes on it, the Paper is said to have been accepted, the player who made it becomes a Professor, and it becomes Inactive; otherwise, it merely becomes Inactive. Papers which become Inactive without being accepted are said to have been rejected. Whenever a Paper is accepted the Secretary of the University may grant the professor whose paper was accepted a specialty. Specialties are cumulative, and a player can be a professor in several fields. If three consecutive Papers of a single professor are rejected, that professor ceases to be a professor. If 60 days pass without a Paper from a single professor being submitted, that professor ceases to be a professor. If at any time there are no professors, teaching or otherwise then the members of the ruling party shall be Acting Professors. An Acting Professor has all of the duties and responsibilities of a professor. If a player becomes a professor and there are any acting professors, the following occurs. All non-teaching acting professors lose their acting professorship. All teaching Acting professors lose their acting professorship when their current student graduates. The default vote for the player who submitted the Paper is FOR. Created by Proposal 25, May 19 1998 Amended by Proposal 34, May 26 1998 Amended by Proposal 38, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 43, June 2 1998 Moved to Section 5 by Proposal 49, June 2 1998 Amended by Proposal 50, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 61, June 9 1998 Section 6: Economics Section 6-0: Objects Within MacroNomic there are several different types of Objects. All Objects are owned by the State, but may be held and collected by the players, who may then utilise them to the extent that they are defined within the rules. Created by Proposal 65, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-0 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 6-0-0: Standard Object All Objects and types of Object have the following defaults: 1) The Secretary of Membership is responsible for recording how many Objects are held by each player. 2) Objects exist in positive integer quantities only. 3) Objects held by a player when they leave the game get transferred to the Secretary of the Central Committee Created by Proposal 65, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-0-0 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 6-0-1: Tradable Objects Any Object that is defined as a Tradable Object may be freely exchanged between the players. This exchange takes place by the notification of the Secretary responsible for that type of Object. The default for all Tradable Objects are the same as for other Objects, with the following changes and additions: 1) The Secretary of Economics is responsible for recording how many Tradable Objects are held by each player. 2) Tradable Objects can be traded in positive integer quantities only. 3) A player may not transfer more Tradable Objects than e currently holds. Created by Proposal 65, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-0-1 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 6-0-2: Global Limits This rule applies whenever a rule creates a new instance (or instances) of an Object by awarding it (or them) to a player. 1) If there is no Global Limit defined for that type of Object, or the rule in question claims precedence over the Global Limit, then the player receives the exact number of Object(s) specified in the rule. 2) If there is currently a Global Limit, and the total number of the specified Objects already in the game is below the Global Limit, then the player receives as many of that type Object as possible (up to a maximum of the number specified in the rule) without taking the total over the Global Limit. 3) If there is currently a Global Limit, and the total number of the specified Objects already in the game is equal to or greater than the Global Limit, then the player does not receive anything Created by Proposal 65, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-0-2 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 6-1: Physical Objects Physical Objects are a type of Tradble Object. Created by Proposal 68, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-1 by SoT, June 9 1998 Amended by Proposal 69, June 16 1998 Section 6-2: Vote Farms Within MacroNomic there exists a farming community. This community gathers together in farms of variable sizes and reaps the produce of the land. All the farms are owned by the state, but players may manage certain quantites of farmland. Acres of Farmland are Physcial Objects. Created by Proposal 68, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-2 by SoT, June 9 1998 Section 6-3: Proposal Mines Macronomic is an industrialized nomic. The state owns all Proposal Mines and Proposal Commodities, but individual players may manage them. There exist three types of Proposal Commodities: Ideas, Words, and Terminologies. There exist three types of Proposal Mine, one for each Proposal Commodity: Idea Mines, Word Mines and Terminology Mines. Terminology may be abbreviated 'Term', and Terminologies 'Terms'. All types of Proposal Mines are Physical Objects. All types of Proposal Commodities are Phyiscal Objects. At the beginning of each Macronomic week, each Proposal Mine produces 3 of the Proposal Commodity it corresponds to, under the management of the Mine's manager. There also exist the State Mines, from which come all three types of Proposal Commodities. The State Mines are not, nor can be managed by any player. Any player with Loyalty greater than or equal to 15 may Operate the State Mines, receiving one Proposal Commodity of a type of eir choice, by notifying the Secretary of Economics of such an action. No player may Operate the State Mines more than once during a week. When a Prole Operates the State Mines, e loses 15 Loyalty Points. Created by Proposal 68, June 9 1998 Moved to Section 6-3 by SoT, June 9 1998 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Tue Jun 16 19:24:06 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21034 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:24:04 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.54] (ip54.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.54]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16400 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:23:51 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update X-archive-position: 80 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >79: JT Traub, June 11/16----------------------------------------------- FOR, looks good. >80: JT Traub, June 11/16----------------------------------------------- FOR, yes yes yes! >81: JT Traub, June 11/16----------------------------------------------- AGAINST, though not strongly. I don't think we need an official mailing list, and self-modifying text makes me nervous. >85: Lambda, June 16/16------------------------------------------------- FOR. There are enough things like this floating around that it's worth having. >86: Lambda, June 16/16------------------------------------------------- AGAINST. Maybe for each paper accepted. There are virtually no restrictions on proposing papers... -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 16 22:17:05 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21547 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:17:04 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 81 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net And, here are my votes and comments. Towsner, the point of prop 81 was to make it a tad more official. I deliberately stated that the new email address needed to be a valid email address in order to avoid any problems with self-modifying rules. I couldn't concieve of a way to abuse the self-modification while still having a valid email address. However, it's possible that the document proposal below provides a nicer way to do this, ala Ackanomic's postal code. 83: FOR. 84: FOR. 85: FOR. 86: AGAINST - for much the same reason as Towsner gave. [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 17 01:02:17 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA22197 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:02:15 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA25396 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256626.002BF9D1 ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:00:20 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256626.002C0DE6.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:05:44 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update X-archive-position: 82 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >The Kid should tally up people's loyalties based on their votes and >the proposals that have passed. Player PrevLP Change NewLP JT 250 +20 270 Philo 224 +10 234 Towsner 186 +10 196 Lambda 204 +53 257 The Kid 196 +18 214 Ember 35 +18 53 Narf 0 -100 0 * Dan 0 -100 0 * (* Cannot go below 0) -- The Kid From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Wed Jun 17 02:54:03 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA22496 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:54:00 -0700 Received: by mail with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3-Server (v2.10) for at Wed, 17 Jun 98 11:50:23 +0200 Message-ID: <358792F1.80164577@docnet.de> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:57:06 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic References: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 83 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Brian Campbell schrieb: > On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 10:17 AM, JT wrote: > >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: > >>We now have a new player: > >> > >>>according to rule 2:0 i have to notify you of my intent to join (i am > >>>doing that now) my name (Aidan McLoughlin) and a nickname (Dan) and my > >>>e-mail address (Dan@sounds.u-net.com) > > > > Could someone forward me the original of this email? I seem to be missing > it. Also, if Dan wants to vote he will have to do so real soon. > > --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Do you mean Dan or Aidan? Dan/TheWiz has left, and Aidan/Dan has aloyalty of zero - besides, he wasn't on the official list yet, so I don't think that's his fault. Ember (Frank Schmidt) From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 17 03:01:27 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22524 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:59:32 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA25991 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256626.0036D8DA ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:59:04 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256626.00373BDC.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:04:31 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic X-archive-position: 84 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>>>according to rule 2:0 i have to notify you of my intent to join (i am >>>>doing that now) my name (Aidan McLoughlin) and a nickname (Dan) and my >>>>e-mail address (Dan@sounds.u-net.com) > >Could someone forward me the original of this email? I seem to be missing >it. Also, if Dan wants to vote he will have to do so real soon. The original of this message was not mailed to the mailing list, it was mailed to me directly. I then cc'd it to the mailing list when I replied to Dan. -- The Kid From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 17 13:30:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23914 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:30:19 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA15903; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a040.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28727; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:29:34 -0400 Date: 17 Jun 98 16:34:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 85 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 6:04 AM, Andy T Harrison wrote: >The original of this message was not mailed to the mailing list, it was >mailed to me directly. I then cc'd it to the mailing list when I replied to >Dan. Yeah, I lost the message you sent to the list. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 17 13:37:08 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23955 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:37:00 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA17087; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a040.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03339; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:34:35 -0400 Date: 17 Jun 98 16:39:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 86 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 5:57 AM, Frank Schmidt wrote: >Do you mean Dan or Aidan? Dan/TheWiz has left, and Aidan/Dan has aloyalty of >zero - besides, he wasn't on the official list yet, so I don't think >that's his fault. Aidan/Dan. If he hasn't yet subscribed, he'd better soon. I'm already counting him in the official business of MacroNomic. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 17 13:41:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23980 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:41:20 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA17654; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a040.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA07310; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:38:56 -0400 Date: 17 Jun 98 16:43:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 87 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 10:23 PM, Towsner wrote: >>86: Lambda, June 16/16------------------------------------------------- >AGAINST. Maybe for each paper accepted. There are virtually no >restrictions on proposing papers... Ack! I didn't mean to say "submits a paper", I meant to say "has a paper accepted". Oh well, as it is I guess I'll just vote against my own proposal. That was a real mistake. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 17 14:12:13 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24089 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:12:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: joining macronomic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 88 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 17 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Aidan/Dan. If he hasn't yet subscribed, he'd better soon. I'm already >counting him in the official business of MacroNomic. He is subscribed to the list. I manually subscribed him after seeing the mail that he was joining. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 18 14:29:01 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28763 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:28:59 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA07962; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a028.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08453; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:28:37 -0400 Date: 18 Jun 98 16:13:59 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Trades From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 89 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I'm still willing to trade 1 Idea with somebody for 1 Term. And I offer that I am willing to have an agreement with someone so that I give them an Idea or a Word each week if they give me a Term each week. And, I might consider trading 5 acres of my farm for a Term mine. Any takers? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 14:36:42 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28810 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:36:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:36:41 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 90 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 18 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >I'm still willing to trade 1 Idea with somebody for 1 Term. And I offer >that I am willing to have an agreement with someone so that I give them an >Idea or a Word each week if they give me a Term each week. And, I might >consider trading 5 acres of my farm for a Term mine. Any takers? I perform my weekly trade with Towsner which we both agreed to previously. (1 Idea of his for 1 Word of mine.). I also offer to Lambda a similar trade. 1 Idea of his a week for 1 Term of mine. Starting this week. (in other words, I'll take the above agreement :) I will have the assets page updated later today since I was sick yesterday and didn't do anything :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 14:44:51 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28860 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:44:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:44:50 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 91 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, JT wrote: >On 18 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >>I'm still willing to trade 1 Idea with somebody for 1 Term. And I offer >>that I am willing to have an agreement with someone so that I give them an >>Idea or a Word each week if they give me a Term each week. And, I might >>consider trading 5 acres of my farm for a Term mine. Any takers? > >I perform my weekly trade with Towsner which we both agreed to previously. >(1 Idea of his for 1 Word of mine.). I also offer to Lambda a similar >trade. 1 Idea of his a week for 1 Term of mine. Starting this week. >(in other words, I'll take the above agreement :) To clarify, I take the above agreement of an idea a week for a term a week, not the one of a term mine for acres. (in case it was unclear). Lambda, I'll record these as soon as you ack the agreement. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 18 20:58:58 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA30606 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:58:56 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA24568; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a001.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA26119; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:58:33 -0400 Date: 19 Jun 98 00:03:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 92 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 5:44 PM, JT wrote: >>I perform my weekly trade with Towsner which we both agreed to previously. >>(1 Idea of his for 1 Word of mine.). I also offer to Lambda a similar >>trade. 1 Idea of his a week for 1 Term of mine. Starting this week. >>(in other words, I'll take the above agreement :) > >To clarify, I take the above agreement of an idea a week for a term a >week, not the one of a term mine for acres. (in case it was unclear). >Lambda, I'll record these as soon as you ack the agreement. Sounds good. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 21:00:06 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA30621 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:00:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:00:05 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Assets page updated Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 93 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Okay, the page has been updated with what I believe is the correct current information including the previously agreed to trade by Towsner and myself. Lambda, if you agree to the perpetual trade I suggested earlier (one idea of yours for one term of mine - to happen each week) let me know. I'm willing to start it this week if you so desire. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 21:06:24 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA30666 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:06:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:06:24 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Trades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 94 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 19 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >>To clarify, I take the above agreement of an idea a week for a term a >>week, not the one of a term mine for acres. (in case it was unclear). >>Lambda, I'll record these as soon as you ack the agreement. > >Sounds good. Okay, so recorded and updated on the page (which is at http://www.nausicaa.net/~jtraub/macro/assets.html for anyone who forgot). I also use the State mines to aquire a Term. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 18 21:17:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA30729 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:17:23 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA26545; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a001.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08681; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:16:57 -0400 Date: 19 Jun 98 00:21:33 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Official MacroNomic Logo From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 95 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I think that we should decide upon/design an official MacroNomic Logo. Naturally, I'm inclined to favor my logo, of a gavel and quill pen in the shape and colors of the hammer and sickle; however, I'd like to know what other people think. To see my logo, go to my MacroNomic page. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 21:20:15 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA30750 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:20:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Official MacroNomic Logo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 96 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 19 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >I think that we should decide upon/design an official MacroNomic Logo. >Naturally, I'm inclined to favor my logo, of a gavel and quill pen in the >shape and colors of the hammer and sickle; however, I'd like to know what >other people think. To see my logo, go to my MacroNomic page. For amusements sake, folks can look at the header for the page that I came up with as well. I actually like your logo though Lambda. I'm not sure we need an 'official' one though. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 18 21:35:11 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA30839 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:35:09 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA27960; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a001.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19188; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:34:43 -0400 Date: 19 Jun 98 00:39:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Official MacroNomic Logo From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 97 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 12:20 AM, JT wrote: >>I think that we should decide upon/design an official MacroNomic Logo. >>Naturally, I'm inclined to favor my logo, of a gavel and quill pen in the >>shape and colors of the hammer and sickle; however, I'd like to know what >>other people think. To see my logo, go to my MacroNomic page. > >For amusements sake, folks can look at the header for the page that I came >up with as well. I actually like your logo though Lambda. I'm not sure >we need an 'official' one though. Well, I was thinking of a sort of flag; after all, don't most communist governments have some sort of flag or symbol that represents the communist system? I don't know, maybe not. And yes, your logo is quite amusing. Maybe we should have a MacroNomic flag and a MacroNomic letterhead. But with my document proposal, we could merely make it official by creating a "state insignia" document as HTML containing all of the various MN symbols. Hey, and how about symbols of rank? We could have a RP insignia, a separate insignia for each secretary, etc. I'll have to start working on those. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 21:46:29 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA30915 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:46:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:46:27 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Official MacroNomic Logo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 98 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 19 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Well, I was thinking of a sort of flag; after all, don't most communist >governments have some sort of flag or symbol that represents the communist >system? I don't know, maybe not. And yes, your logo is quite amusing. Maybe >we should have a MacroNomic flag and a MacroNomic letterhead. But with my >document proposal, we could merely make it official by creating a "state >insignia" document as HTML containing all of the various MN symbols. Hey, >and how about symbols of rank? We could have a RP insignia, a separate >insignia for each secretary, etc. I'll have to start working on those. I tried that technique over a flag to begin with, and it didn't look good :) I think too many graphics would be overkill though.. I prefer to have quickly loading web pages :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Thu Jun 18 22:55:19 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA31118 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:55:15 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.13] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ymu7X-0005iC-00; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:53:56 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980619065336.0068842c@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:53:36 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] new e-mail address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 99 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Hi, Yesterday, due to the fact that i recieved more e-mail in two days than in a whole year I decided that a shared e-mail address was no longer satisfactory. As you can see from the return address my new address is dan2000@usa.net I can still recieve mail at my old address (dan@sounds.u-net.com) but i would prefer the use of this one in future. Thankyou, Dan /-------------------------------\ | "Bollocks to the rules!" | | - Jack in 'Lord of The Flies' | | By William Golding | \-------------------------------/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 18 23:07:34 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA31169 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:07:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:07:33 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] new e-mail address In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980619065336.0068842c@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 100 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >Hi, > Yesterday, due to the fact that i recieved more e-mail in two days than >in a whole year I decided that a shared e-mail address was no longer >satisfactory. As you can see from the return address my new address is >dan2000@usa.net > I can still recieve mail at my old address (dan@sounds.u-net.com) but i >would prefer the use of this one in future. You're address on the mailing has been changed Dan. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Fri Jun 19 10:17:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00463 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:17:34 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.62] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yn4lx-00031g-00; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:16:22 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980619163544.0068b420@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:35:44 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] official macronomic logo/flag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 101 X-Listar-MIME-Decode: Message altered to plaintext; MIME attachments removed or decrypted. X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net In response to Brian's mail about an official Macronomic logo that could be used as a flag, I started to design one. You should find the file attached. It is called flag.jpg. The e represents the e-mail aspect of Macronomic, the three stars represent our three beloved leaders, the members of the rp, and red is the standard colour for communist states. The white has two possible meanings, choose the one you believe: 1. The white is just to make the flag a little more interesting. 2. The white represents light. Macronomic is the light which leads all other nomics to the glory of communism and the beuty and freedom it heralds. Long live Lenin!!! This flag is still very much in the experimental design type stage and please feel totally free to tell me exactly what you think about it. Even if you think that it is terrible and should be thrown into a bottomless pit and forced to suffer eternal damnation at the hands of the capitalist scum. or something :). When sending me comments please bear in mind that i am most definately not much of an artist, so i can't do anything really fancy. I have a picture of the flag flying from a mast (not just straight out, but actually fluttering in the wind), if anyone wants it just ask and i'll e-mail it to you. Dan -- Listar MIME Decryption -------------- -- Name : flag.jpg -- Content: image/jpeg -- CONTENT REMOVED, NOT PLAINTEXT. -- Listar MIME Decryption -------------- /-------------------------------\ | "Bollocks to the rules!" | | - Jack in 'Lord of The Flies' | | By William Golding | \-------------------------------/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Jun 19 11:05:41 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00607 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:05:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:05:39 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] official macronomic logo/flag In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980619163544.0068b420@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 102 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >In response to Brian's mail about an official Macronomic logo that could be >used as a flag, I started to design one. You should find the file >attached. It is called flag.jpg. [snip] >-- Listar MIME Decryption -------------- >-- Name : flag.jpg >-- Content: image/jpeg >-- CONTENT REMOVED, NOT PLAINTEXT. > > >-- Listar MIME Decryption -------------- > As many of you can see, the mailing list software I use removes attachments. In general this is a good thing because sending attachments over email is really a pain in the ass, especially for people who like to use simple/small mail reading programs which don't like attachments and for network bandwidth in general. Aidan, you might want to consider posting the picture to a web site someplace. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Fri Jun 19 11:37:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00709 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:37:52 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.41] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yn61a-0006e4-00; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:36:35 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980619193556.0068bbac@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:35:56 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] official macronomic logo/flag In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980619163544.0068b420@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 103 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 11:05 19-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >As many of you can see, the mailing list software I use removes >attachments. In general this is a good thing because sending attachments >over email is really a pain in the ass, especially for people who like to >use simple/small mail reading programs which don't like attachments and >for network bandwidth in general. > >Aidan, you might want to consider posting the picture to a web site >someplace. > >--JT Jt, can you perhaps suggest some sites cos i havent got one of my own. /-------------------------------\ | "Bollocks to the rules!" | | - Jack in 'Lord of The Flies' | | By William Golding | \-------------------------------/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Jun 19 11:41:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00733 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:41:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:41:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] official macronomic logo/flag In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980619193556.0068bbac@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 104 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >At 11:05 19-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >>Aidan, you might want to consider posting the picture to a web site >>someplace. > >Jt, can you perhaps suggest some sites cos i havent got one of my own. Two suggestions. If you wnat to build your own site, look into geocities. While they might not be the best, they are free and 'semi' reliable. Alternatively, you can mail the jpg to me privately, and I can place it off of nausicaa.net (under the macronomic stuff I have there) for you. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Fri Jun 19 12:02:21 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00815 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:02:18 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.2] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yn6PM-0007UI-00; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:01:09 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980619200126.00687cbc@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:01:26 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] getting the flag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 105 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Ok, i've uploaded my falg design (see my earlier e-mail) to the u-net ftp site. the address if ftp://ftp.u-net.com. Both the files are in the uploads directory, called flag and flyflag, they are not very big and i am not sure how long they will remain there so please check them out as soon as possible. Dan /-------------------------------\ | "Bollocks to the rules!" | | - Jack in 'Lord of The Flies' | | By William Golding | \-------------------------------/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Jun 19 12:38:10 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00952 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:38:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:38:09 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] getting the flag In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980619200126.00687cbc@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 106 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >Ok, i've uploaded my falg design (see my earlier e-mail) to the u-net ftp >site. >the address if ftp://ftp.u-net.com. Both the files are in the uploads >directory, called flag and flyflag, they are not very big and i am not sure >how long they will remain there so please check them out as soon as possible. > For anyone who is interestd, I have copied these to http://www.nausicaa.net/~jtraub/macro/aidan/ The files are flyflag.jpg and flag.jpg --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Fri Jun 19 17:51:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01974 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:51:42 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA09129; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a030.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA22884; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:51:20 -0400 Date: 19 Jun 98 20:55:54 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Who's who? From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 107 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, I just recieved a proposal from someone, who I thought was Aidan/Dan, and notified JT of this. However this came from Frank McLoughlin , and in the message about joining Aidan/Dan specifies that his address is . Now he has changed his address, but in that message he says that his old address was . Who's who here? Is this just a problem with email aliases? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jreed@itis.com Fri Jun 19 21:07:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02557 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:07:23 -0700 Received: from [209.83.15.76] (a18-12.itis.com [209.83.15.76]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18541 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:06:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:13:24 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: [MacroNomic] Vacation's over... (votes incl.) X-archive-position: 108 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Hey, I'm back. I'm also generally willing to take back any or all posts I dropped, though people seem to be doing a fine job with them. I (personally) really like having things like all the secretariats and loyalty figures web-available, so if the current SoM doesn't have that capability or desire, a periodic summary of such information so I can toss it up on the web would be nice. Or the SoM itself. Either way. Feh. Secretariats don't confer much power, but they do give the impression of it. I enjoyed having artistic control over the appearance of the current proposals, and rules, too :) Even though the way lambda has 'em set up *is* in fact markedly prettier. Actually, for the purposes of archival, it might be nice to have a text or near-text format for storing rules and proposals such that displaying them in whatever visual format you want would be easy. (ie, a trivial perl hack) Something like: beginitem type: proposal number: 1000042 date: 13/18/2009 author: player x text:<; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:42:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Vacation's over... (votes incl.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 109 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Jason Reed wrote: >The idea's perfectly good, but there's a couple of dangerous bits in there, >as far as I can tell; If all things in documents are the Official Truth, >why can secretaries make any documents they want? And what about >secretariats that aren't required to manage any information? (Like Seargent >of the Occupying Force, etc. etc., which I would like, JT) I hereby give the Seargent of the Occupying Force in Command of Foreign Matters to Philo. I'm curious (btw) as to why you don't like P81? I know why Towsner doesn't, but am curious if you have the same reason or a different one. BTW, I didn't mention it earlier Lambda, but I do like the page layout that you did as well. (granted, I'm more partial to my color scheme, but hey, that's just me, and besides there is no reason all the pages should look the same anyway :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Sat Jun 20 02:16:19 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03617 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 02:16:14 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.51] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynJjY-0001qU-00; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:14:52 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980620101409.00690944@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:14:09 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Who's who? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 110 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 20:55 19-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >OK, I just recieved a proposal from someone, who I thought was Aidan/Dan, >and notified JT of this. However this came from Frank McLoughlin >, and in the message about joining Aidan/Dan >specifies that his address is . Now he has changed >his address, but in that message he says that his old address was >. Who's who here? Is this just a problem with email >aliases? Ok, sorry about that Brian, it was from me, at my old address i had host based mail, so anything@sounds.u-net.com would have reached me, my default return address was set by my dad who used the name frank@sounds.u-net.com Sorry for any confusion. Dan /-------------------------------\ | "Bollocks to the rules!" | | - Jack in 'Lord of The Flies' | | By William Golding | \-------------------------------/ From Dan2000@usa.net Sat Jun 20 04:20:29 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA03940 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 04:20:26 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.12] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynLg8-0006Mq-00; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:19:28 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980620121835.0068ab60@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:18:35 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] altering proposals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 111 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net is it possible to ask the sectretary of truth to alter a porposal sent to him/her/other before it becomes active? I cannot find anything in the rules which say it is not, nor anything that says it is, and from the way i understand it rule 0-0 states that technically it should legal, if not wouldn't it be a good idea to make it legal or at least to clarify that it is not legal? Dan /-------------------------------\ | "Bollocks to the rules!" | | - Jack in 'Lord of The Flies' | | By William Golding | \-------------------------------/ From tows@earthlink.net Sat Jun 20 09:37:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04827 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:37:47 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.93] (ip93.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.93]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09956 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:37:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980620121835.0068ab60@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:40:18 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals X-archive-position: 112 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >is it possible to ask the sectretary of truth to alter a porposal sent to >him/her/other before it becomes active? I cannot find anything in the >rules which say it is not, nor anything that says it is, and from the way i >understand it rule 0-0 states that technically it should legal, if not >wouldn't it be a good idea to make it legal or at least to clarify that it >is not legal? It is allowed by the current rules with some small circumlocutions. Whenever I need to alter a preactive proposal I retract it and say what I want changed. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 20 09:42:44 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04887 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:42:43 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 113 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>is it possible to ask the sectretary of truth to alter a porposal sent to >>him/her/other before it becomes active? I cannot find anything in the >>rules which say it is not, nor anything that says it is, and from the way i >>understand it rule 0-0 states that technically it should legal, if not >>wouldn't it be a good idea to make it legal or at least to clarify that it >>is not legal? > It is allowed by the current rules with some small circumlocutions. >Whenever I need to alter a preactive proposal I retract it and say what I >want changed. Unfortunately Towsner, currently retracting a proposal doesn't refund you commodities used. That's one of the things I fixed in my recent proposal which is why I believe Aidan asked the question. Note to the SoTruth. There were some retracted proposals last week (or else the numbers were skipped for some reason). Were they charged as well? --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Sat Jun 20 10:34:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05123 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:34:49 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.62] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynRWI-00062a-00; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:33:43 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980620181805.0068fdbc@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:18:05 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 114 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 09:42 20-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >Unfortunately Towsner, currently retracting a proposal doesn't refund you >commodities used. That's one of the things I fixed in my recent proposal >which is why I believe Aidan asked the question. Thats right JT, so, is it ok for me to just say to the SoTruth what i would like to change in my proposal without losing my commodities which would sort of defeat the object? This is a question to anyone by the way, not just JT. Dan /=========================================================================\ | "There are many aspects of human irrationality I do not yet comprehend. | | Obsession, for one. The persistent single-minded fixation on one idea." | | -- Spock | \=========================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 20 11:20:18 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05264 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:20:17 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:20:16 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980620181805.0068fdbc@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 115 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >At 09:42 20-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >>On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>Unfortunately Towsner, currently retracting a proposal doesn't refund you >>commodities used. That's one of the things I fixed in my recent proposal >>which is why I believe Aidan asked the question. > >Thats right JT, so, is it ok for me to just say to the SoTruth what i would >like to change in my proposal without losing my commodities which would >sort of defeat the object? This is a question to anyone by the way, not >just JT. Well, if I were asked to judge such a thing as CFJ, I'd probably reason as follows. I'd say that Section 0-0 doesn't come into play because referenda are certainly part of the game-state, and Section 0-0's permissibility clause only grants permissibility to actions external to the game state. It also directly prohibits however changes to the gamestate except as proscribed by the rules. From section 3-1, Proposals The Secretary of Truth may notify any player during the preactive stage of eir proposal if eir proposal conflicts with any other currently preactive proposal, and how e may change eir proposal to conform with the other. That is the only reference I can find to changing a proposal, but it describes a specific situation under which that change may be allowed. Unfortunately, I don't believe that this would allow the changing of a preactive proposal under any other situation. If anyone disagrees with this analysis, I'd be interested in hearing how/why? I suggest just letting it go to vote, and perhaps noting what the error in the proposal is publically. It's possible that people will be lenient enough to pass it as long as you fix the error with your next proposal (or ask one of us to do so). --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jreed@itis.com Sat Jun 20 11:28:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05315 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:28:33 -0700 Received: from [209.83.12.218] (a8-26.itis.com [209.83.12.218]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25506 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:28:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980620181805.0068fdbc@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:34:56 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals X-archive-position: 116 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>From section 3-1, Proposals >The Secretary of Truth may notify any player during the preactive stage of >eir proposal if eir proposal conflicts with any other currently preactive >proposal, and how e may change eir proposal to conform with the other. > >That is the only reference I can find to changing a proposal, but it >describes a specific situation under which that change may be allowed. >Unfortunately, I don't believe that this would allow the changing of a >preactive proposal under any other situation. Um. I don't believe that rule allows the SoT to actually *change* the text of active proposals, just allows em to recommend changes to players. Which e can do anyway. Which is why I always thought that wording was kind of silly. If it was intended to allow changes, it's ridiculously dangerous - proposals should not be legally changable without starting a new voting period, because otherwise you can just change the prop at the last minute (while everyone is voting for it) and get omnipotence, or whatever. My recommendation is: think very carefully before you propose. Proto and/or ask questions and/or discuss, if you want. - Philo (Avid player, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "[Young lady, ] in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson From lambda@world.std.com Sat Jun 20 12:12:26 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05503 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:12:24 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA16513; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a002.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19790; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:11:59 -0400 Date: 20 Jun 98 15:16:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 117 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, Jun 20, 1998 2:20 PM, JT wrote: >>From section 3-1, Proposals >The Secretary of Truth may notify any player during the preactive stage of >eir proposal if eir proposal conflicts with any other currently preactive >proposal, and how e may change eir proposal to conform with the other. > >That is the only reference I can find to changing a proposal, but it >describes a specific situation under which that change may be allowed. >Unfortunately, I don't believe that this would allow the changing of a >preactive proposal under any other situation. > >If anyone disagrees with this analysis, I'd be interested in hearing >how/why? > Well, when I made this proposal I meant it so that the player could retract the proposal, modify it, and resubmit it. However, as has already been pointed out, you will already lose the proposal commodities, and so this little bit is fairly useless. Another thing is that this actually does come into effect now; both Dan's proposal and one of JT's proposals try to do the same thing. I'll be getting in contact with each of you privately about this, but I don't think you can change your proposals. One or the other will have to retract their proposal, and lose the commodities. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sat Jun 20 12:18:04 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05534 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:18:02 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA17001; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a002.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29206; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:17:45 -0400 Date: 20 Jun 98 15:22:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Vacation's over... (votes incl.) From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 118 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, Jun 20, 1998 12:42 AM, JT wrote: >BTW, I didn't mention it earlier Lambda, but I do like the page layout >that you did as well. (granted, I'm more partial to my color scheme, but >hey, that's just me, and besides there is no reason all the pages should >look the same anyway :) Actually, I don't really like my color scheme either. The reason it is the way it is is because I designed the logo, and wanted to make the page match. However, when designing the logo I put it on a bright red background and realized later that it was a little too bright for the background of a web page. I'll work on reducing the brightness a little when I update it on Tuesday. By the way, Philo said he would like people's loyalties/secretariships on the webpage. I have already added them, and will upload the new webpage soon. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sat Jun 20 12:28:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05577 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:28:52 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA17875; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a002.std.com (ppp0a013.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15662; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:28:38 -0400 Date: 20 Jun 98 15:33:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Vacation's over... (votes incl.) From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 119 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, Jun 20, 1998 12:13 AM, Jason Reed wrote: >The idea's perfectly good, but there's a couple of dangerous bits in there, >as far as I can tell; If all things in documents are the Official Truth, >why can secretaries make any documents they want? And what about >secretariats that aren't required to manage any information? (Like Seargent >of the Occupying Force, etc. etc., which I would like, JT) Well, the documents rule will say "Documents may only be created as specified in the rules or in a proposal, and may only be modified as specified in the rules." The only way this says that secretaries may create documents is "All Secretaries must maintain at least one document which contains the information they are required to manage." This means thay can't just add whatever they want to documents, but must only have the information they are required to manage. I admit there is a problem with the secretaries who aren't required to maintain any information; however, it strikes me that these really aren't secretaries then. Perharps we should give them some other name. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 20 13:43:09 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05808 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:43:09 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:43:08 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 120 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Jason Reed wrote: >>>From section 3-1, Proposals >>The Secretary of Truth may notify any player during the preactive stage of >>eir proposal if eir proposal conflicts with any other currently preactive >>proposal, and how e may change eir proposal to conform with the other. >> >>That is the only reference I can find to changing a proposal, but it >>describes a specific situation under which that change may be allowed. >>Unfortunately, I don't believe that this would allow the changing of a >>preactive proposal under any other situation. >Um. I don't believe that rule allows the SoT to actually *change* the text >of active proposals, just allows em to recommend changes to players. Which >e can do anyway. Which is why I always thought that wording was kind of >silly. > >If it was intended to allow changes, it's ridiculously dangerous - >proposals should not be legally changable without starting a new voting >period, because otherwise you can just change the prop at the last minute >(while everyone is voting for it) and get omnipotence, or whatever. Changes while it's pre-active aren't dangerous :) They happen before the voting period starts which is what I believe the above possibly allows. However, you could be correct. Regardless, it doesn't apply to this case. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 20 14:05:11 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06036 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:05:11 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:05:11 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 121 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, JT wrote: >Changes while it's pre-active aren't dangerous :) They happen before the >voting period starts which is what I believe the above possibly allows. > >However, you could be correct. Regardless, it doesn't apply to this case. Except from what lambda said, it might. Dan, I think between us we can figure out a compromise that works. If you end up retracting yours I will give you one of each commodity so that you can still make a proposal. I'm interested in which of my 3 proposals his conflicted with. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Sat Jun 20 14:42:12 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06145 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:42:10 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.11] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynVNa-0007mc-00; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:40:59 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980620224015.0068d77c@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:40:15 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Vacation's over... (votes incl.) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 122 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 15:33 20-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >I admit there is a problem with >the secretaries who aren't required to maintain any information; however, >it strikes me that these really aren't secretaries then. Perharps we should >give them some other name. > >--- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) How about calling them ministers? Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | \================================================================/ From Dan2000@usa.net Sat Jun 20 14:42:13 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06146 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:42:11 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.11] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynVNc-0007mc-00; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:41:00 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980620223921.0068d77c@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:39:21 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980620181805.0068fdbc@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 123 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 13:34 20-06-98 -0500, you wrote: >>>From section 3-1, Proposals >>The Secretary of Truth may notify any player during the preactive stage of >>eir proposal if eir proposal conflicts with any other currently preactive >>proposal, and how e may change eir proposal to conform with the other. >> >>That is the only reference I can find to changing a proposal, but it >>describes a specific situation under which that change may be allowed. >>Unfortunately, I don't believe that this would allow the changing of a >>preactive proposal under any other situation. >Um. I don't believe that rule allows the SoT to actually *change* the text >of active proposals, just allows em to recommend changes to players. Which >e can do anyway. Which is why I always thought that wording was kind of >silly. > >If it was intended to allow changes, it's ridiculously dangerous - >proposals should not be legally changable without starting a new voting >period, because otherwise you can just change the prop at the last minute >(while everyone is voting for it) and get omnipotence, or whatever. > >My recommendation is: think very carefully before you propose. Proto and/or >ask questions and/or discuss, if you want. By George (or whoever) Man, your right. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that a player may not change their *active* proposals, in effect this could give very 'interesting' results in the hands of a being consummed with the desire for world (or at least nomic) domination. Now i look closely there are any number of possible loopholes in the rules, i hope therefore that, since someone has not already achieved omnipotence or something equaly boring and killed the game that the populace of this fine nomic is above such things as power hunger and greed, (after all we are communist are we not?) I see that i have a lot to learn about Macronomic and the nomic universe in general.... /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ /\/ "There seem to be many loop holes in these rules Pinky, I need to plan for tommorow night." "What are we doing tomorrow night Brain?" The same thing we do every night Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!... sorry i mean, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE NOMIC!!!!!" "Oh yeah Brain, Narf. Point." "Goodnight Brain" Goodnight Pinky" "They're Pinky, They're Pinky and they're Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain"... \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ \/\ ... :-) Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 20 14:55:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06210 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:55:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980620223921.0068d77c@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 124 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >By George (or whoever) Man, your right. Nowhere in the rules is it stated >that a player may not change their *active* proposals, in effect this could >give very 'interesting' results in the hands of a being consummed with the >desire for world (or at least nomic) domination. Now i look closely there >are any number of possible loopholes in the rules, i hope therefore that, >since someone has not already achieved omnipotence or something equaly >boring and killed the game that the populace of this fine nomic is above >such things as power hunger and greed, (after all we are communist are we >not?) No.. Referenda are certainly part of the game state and thus by Section 0-0 may not be altered except as allowed by the rules. My argument was that a PREactive proposal might be allowed to be changed due to the phrasing of a rule under very specific circumstances. So, while I don't doubt that there are in fact paradoxes and scams hiding within the rulebase even as small as it is, I don't think this is one of them :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Sun Jun 21 00:32:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07808 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:32:18 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.37] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yneaR-0006L8-00; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:30:52 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980620224659.00690470@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:46:59 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 125 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 14:05 20-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, JT wrote: >>Changes while it's pre-active aren't dangerous :) They happen before the >>voting period starts which is what I believe the above possibly allows. >> >>However, you could be correct. Regardless, it doesn't apply to this case. > >Except from what lambda said, it might. > >Dan, I think between us we can figure out a compromise that works. If you >end up retracting yours I will give you one of each commodity so that you >can still make a proposal. I'm interested in which of my 3 proposals his >conflicted with. I proposal does not confict with anything, as far as i am aware, i tell you what, should i show everyone the proposal i proposed, the thing that is causing all this grief and let you all decide, firstly if it is worth changing, and secondly how it should be changed, and thirdly by what means (eg, should i immediately after it is passed propose an ammendment or something)? dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 21 01:40:02 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA08080 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:40:01 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:40:01 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980620224659.00690470@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 126 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >I proposal does not confict with anything, as far as i am aware, i tell you >what, should i show everyone the proposal i proposed, the thing that is >causing all this grief and let you all decide, firstly if it is worth >changing, and secondly how it should be changed, and thirdly by what means >(eg, should i immediately after it is passed propose an ammendment or >something)? Go for it :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Sun Jun 21 07:41:28 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09053 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:41:22 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.49] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynlHo-0007iT-00; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:40:05 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980621101007.0068d5d8@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:10:07 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980620223921.0068d77c@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 127 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 14:55 20-06-98 -0700, you wrote: > >No.. Referenda are certainly part of the game state and thus by Section >0-0 may not be altered except as allowed by the rules. > >My argument was that a PREactive proposal might be allowed to be changed >due to the phrasing of a rule under very specific circumstances. > >So, while I don't doubt that there are in fact paradoxes and scams hiding >within the rulebase even as small as it is, I don't think this is one of >them :) That's not what you said: You said that a player could change their proposal at the very last second while people are voting on it and achieve omnipotence or something, that is when the proposal is ACTIVE, not PREACTIVE, so the rules don't cause much of a problem. So naturally i thought that you meant that someone could change their rule at the absolute last second, i didn't actually think about reading the rules thoroughly to check :) I just wanted an excuse to get Pinky and Brain in there really Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From Dan2000@usa.net Sun Jun 21 07:44:12 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is2.u-net.net (serv1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.130.23]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09076 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:44:09 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.49] by serv1.is2.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0ynl5l-000399-00; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:27:38 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980621154315.0068fe70@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:43:15 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980620224659.00690470@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 128 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 01:40 21-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >>I proposal does not confict with anything, as far as i am aware, i tell you >>what, should i show everyone the proposal i proposed, the thing that is >>causing all this grief and let you all decide, firstly if it is worth >>changing, and secondly how it should be changed, and thirdly by what means >>(eg, should i immediately after it is passed propose an ammendment or >>something)? > >Go for it :) > >--JT OK, here is the proposal as sent to the Secretary of Truth: Create "Section 0-1-0-3: Clarification" with the following SQUARE BRACKETS-delimited text: SQUARE BRACKETS In the text of a proposal any text contained within square brackets is to be used for clarification of the main body of the proposal only and is not to be considered an effective part of the proposal. [therefore anything written inside these brackets does not mean anything regarding the proposal, so anything could be written here and it would not effect the proposal, however writing inside square brackets that you intend to join the rp is publically declaring it and is treason] It may however be used as evidence of the meaning of the proposal in a CfJ. SQUARE BRACKETS Nothing has been changed from what I sent Brian. Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 21 09:03:06 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09294 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:03:06 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980621154315.0068fe70@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 129 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Heheh.. On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >Create "Section 0-1-0-3: Clarification" with the following SQUARE >BRACKETS-delimited text: > >SQUARE BRACKETS >In the text of a proposal any text contained within square brackets is to >be used for clarification of the main body of the proposal only and is not >to be considered an effective part of the proposal. [therefore anything >written inside these brackets does not mean anything regarding the >proposal, so anything could be written here and it would not effect the >proposal, however writing inside square brackets that you intend to join >the rp is publically declaring it and is treason] It may however be used as >evidence of the meaning of the proposal in a CfJ. >SQUARE BRACKETS > >Nothing has been changed from what I sent Brian. And yes, we do in fact have a conflict between a proposal you sent and the one I sent. The one I sent was. PROPOSAL Null Semantic Content Create a rule section 0-1-0-3 titled 'Examples' with the following text as delimited by EXAMPLE EXAMPLE Text contained within the symbols [like this] has no semantic meaning and can thus be used to illustrate and comment or exemplify as needed within the rules. They can thus be used by judges to understand the intent of proposals and are the only way to express legislative intent. They are not however binding and have no effect on game state in and of themselves. EXAMPLE END PROPOSAL I'm willing to abide by majority feeling as too who should retract theirs. They are definately just about equivalent. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 21 09:07:07 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09329 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:07:07 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980621101007.0068d5d8@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 130 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >>No.. Referenda are certainly part of the game state and thus by Section >>0-0 may not be altered except as allowed by the rules. >> >>My argument was that a PREactive proposal might be allowed to be changed >>due to the phrasing of a rule under very specific circumstances. >> >>So, while I don't doubt that there are in fact paradoxes and scams hiding >>within the rulebase even as small as it is, I don't think this is one of >>them :) > >That's not what you said: You said that a player could change their >proposal at the very last second while people are voting on it and achieve >omnipotence or something, that is when the proposal is ACTIVE, not >PREACTIVE, so the rules don't cause much of a problem. So naturally i >thought that you meant that someone could change their rule at the absolute >last second, i didn't actually think about reading the rules thoroughly to >check :) No, someone else said that it could alter any proposal.. I said that it could (under my reading) possibly allow changes to preactive props, but only in the case of a conflict. Regardless, we've already figured out that one of you or I, Dan, is going to retract. The only question is whom :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Sun Jun 21 11:53:02 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09808 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:52:59 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.13] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ynpDS-0002SN-00; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:51:51 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980621195207.00692e14@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:52:07 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980621154315.0068fe70@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 131 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 09:03 21-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >And yes, we do in fact have a conflict between a proposal you sent and the >one I sent. > >The one I sent was. >PROPOSAL Null Semantic Content >Create a rule section 0-1-0-3 titled 'Examples' with the following text >as delimited by EXAMPLE >EXAMPLE >Text contained within the symbols [like this] has no semantic meaning and >can thus be used to illustrate and comment or exemplify as needed within >the rules. They can thus be used by judges to understand the intent of >proposals and are the only way to express legislative intent. They are >not however binding and have no effect on game state in and of themselves. >EXAMPLE >END PROPOSAL > >I'm willing to abide by majority feeling as too who should retract theirs. >They are definately just about equivalent. > >--JT That's uncanny, your proposal is almost identical (in principal) to mine! I was not aware that you had submitted a similar proposal, i guess i wasn't informed because i submitted mine first. As yours is worded much better I think that i should perhaps retract as my proposal is certainly worded very awkwardly and I see all sorts of unforseen difficulties :) But as you say i am happy to go with any majority. I think i just need to practice my wording of proposals. I think i'll base my next one on an existing proposal which should make it ok. Dan ps. in case anyone is interested i recently discovered that "Hurray! vote on petty liar." is an anagram of "The Revolutionary Party". (200 more where that came from). /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 21 14:38:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10514 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:38:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:38:46 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980621195207.00692e14@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 132 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >That's uncanny, your proposal is almost identical (in principal) to mine! >I was not aware that you had submitted a similar proposal, i guess i wasn't >informed because i submitted mine first. As yours is worded much better I >think that i should perhaps retract as my proposal is certainly worded very >awkwardly and I see all sorts of unforseen difficulties :) *grin* >But as you say i am happy to go with any majority. I think i just need to >practice my wording of proposals. I think i'll base my next one on an >existing proposal which should make it ok. As I said previously, if you do end up retracting yours I will spot you the 3 commodities to resubmit a new proposal. As far as phrasing of proposals goes, I'm still not all that great at it myself sometimes (take a look at some of the gaffs I've made in ackanomic :) but I'm getting better :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 21 21:12:23 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11753 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:12:18 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA00585; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (ppp0a003.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16873; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:46 -0400 Date: 22 Jun 98 00:01:44 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Secretary of Membership/Friendship From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 134 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I just noticed that even though there has already been a proposal to change all occurances of "Secretary of Membership" to "Secretary of Friendship". However, immidiately after this was passed another proposal said that the "Secretary of Membership" is supposed to do something. So really, we never got rid of that position, and I don't know who it goes to (JT or The Kid). Because of this, I screwed up updating the FAQ (when I posted it to the web). So, I'm wondering if anyone would mind me calling this a "spelling error" and just fixing it? It would be far easier, cheaper, and faster than making a proposal. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 21 21:12:23 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11749 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:12:16 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA00579; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (ppp0a003.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16848; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:43 -0400 Date: 21 Jun 98 23:38:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 135 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 2:52 PM, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >ps. in case anyone is interested i recently discovered that "Hurray! vote >on petty liar." is an anagram of "The Revolutionary Party". (200 more where >that came from). OK, if you want anagrams of "The Revolutionary Party", I can generate millions, ranging from "Harry to levy reputation" to "Try utopian revolter hay!", or "A thorny, puerile Troy vat". How about "Over-earthly toy puritan"? Or "Hay? Very opulent traitor!" Maybe "Thou pay terror natively!" My anagram program generates over 48,000 anagrams containing the word "vote", so we could continue for a while. Not many of them mean anything, like "VOTE HARRY PLATE RUIN TOY". I think that "Novelty authority raper" is a good one, although "Prevent royal authority" fits the theme very well. We could also say "I overhaul ratty entropy". Well, I think that's enough for now. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 21 21:12:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11747 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:12:15 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA00573; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (ppp0a003.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16839; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:40 -0400 Date: 21 Jun 98 23:38:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 136 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 5:38 PM, JT wrote: >As I said previously, if you do end up retracting yours I will spot you >the 3 commodities to resubmit a new proposal. Actually, I can controll the timing so that the proposals that are going to pass do so, and then one or the other of you retracts your proposal, but regains the commodities because of proposal 80. Then, and only then, do I distribute the new proposals. That way, everyone wins. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 21 21:12:18 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11748 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:12:16 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA00570; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (ppp0a003.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16830; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:37 -0400 Date: 21 Jun 98 23:32:52 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] ERROR From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 133 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net As I recieved no votes to the contrary, CFJ #1 passes. I have updated the web site to reflect this change. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Sun Jun 21 21:12:27 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11763 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:12:24 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA00593; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (ppp0a003.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16894; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:11:48 -0400 Date: 22 Jun 98 00:10:23 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Trades (once more) From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 137 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I'm still looking for someone with whom to trade an Idea or Word for a Term. I'm thinking this would be a good trade with Philo, Ember, or Narf. Anyone? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 21 21:41:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11895 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:41:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:41:46 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 138 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 21 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 5:38 PM, JT wrote: >>As I said previously, if you do end up retracting yours I will spot you >>the 3 commodities to resubmit a new proposal. > >Actually, I can controll the timing so that the proposals that are going to >pass do so, and then one or the other of you retracts your proposal, but >regains the commodities because of proposal 80. Then, and only then, do I >distribute the new proposals. That way, everyone wins. Yes, you actually could I believe, just by stacking mine first :) However, I think that's a bit iffy and is a practice I would much rather see not begun. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Jun 22 01:01:41 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12577 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:01:40 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA04149 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825662B.002C643F ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:02:47 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025662B.002C9DAF.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:08:19 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] ERROR X-archive-position: 139 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >As I recieved no votes to the contrary, CFJ #1 passes. I have updated the >web site to reflect this change. Err, what CFJ was that then? Or did you mean ERROR#1, as is the subject line? -- The Kid From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Jun 22 01:07:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12687 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:07:54 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA04190 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825662B.002CC484 ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:08:58 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025662B.002CBDC5.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:14:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Secretary of Membership/Friendship X-archive-position: 140 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I just noticed that even though there has already been a proposal to change >all occurances of "Secretary of Membership" to "Secretary of Friendship". >However, immidiately after this was passed another proposal said that the >"Secretary of Membership" is supposed to do something. So really, we never >got rid of that position, and I don't know who it goes to (JT or The Kid). >Because of this, I screwed up updating the FAQ (when I posted it to the >web). So, I'm wondering if anyone would mind me calling this a "spelling >error" and just fixing it? It would be far easier, cheaper, and faster than >making a proposal. Well, I'm still assuming that I'm holding the position of SoF, as I was holding both SoF and SoM at the time they merged. As the title has been specifically changed by a proposal, I would agree with you that any reference to SoM should infact be SoF. -- The Kid From Dan2000@usa.net Mon Jun 22 14:14:00 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15177 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:13:53 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.62] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yoDtH-0004MD-00; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:12:40 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980622183015.00692b54@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:30:15 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980621195207.00692e14@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 141 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 14:38 21-06-98 -0700, JT wrote: >As I said previously, if you do end up retracting yours I will spot you >the 3 commodities to resubmit a new proposal. Thats not necessary JT, because as my loyalty is currently 0 using the state mines should not reduce my loyalty at all (i quote from section 2-1: Loyalty Defined "Any player with a loyalty lower than 0 will have eir loyalty set to 0."), so technically i can get any number of terms, ideas and words completely free. (i think, tell me if i am mistaken, do i need to get permission from someone to use state mines or something?). Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Jun 22 14:57:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15299 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:57:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:57:34 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980622183015.00692b54@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 142 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net To answer your subject, too many :) On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >>As I said previously, if you do end up retracting yours I will spot you >>the 3 commodities to resubmit a new proposal. > >Thats not necessary JT, because as my loyalty is currently 0 using the >state mines should not reduce my loyalty at all (i quote from section 2-1: >Loyalty Defined "Any player with a loyalty lower than 0 will have eir >loyalty set to 0."), so technically i can get any number of terms, ideas >and words completely free. (i think, tell me if i am mistaken, do i need to >get permission from someone to use state mines or something?). Well, you can only use the state mines once a week, so yes, you could in fact get 1 effectively free but that's it :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Mon Jun 22 15:34:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15410 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:34:27 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA01973; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a016.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA27192; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:34:05 -0400 Date: 22 Jun 98 18:38:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 143 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, Jun 22, 1998 1:30 PM, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >Thats not necessary JT, because as my loyalty is currently 0 using the >state mines should not reduce my loyalty at all (i quote from section 2-1: >Loyalty Defined "Any player with a loyalty lower than 0 will have eir >loyalty set to 0."), so technically i can get any number of terms, ideas >and words completely free. (i think, tell me if i am mistaken, do i need to >get permission from someone to use state mines or something?). No, actually you may only use the state mines if you have a loyalty over 15, as well as only getting 1 commodity per week. What you can do is wait until you have a 15 loyalty, get the first commodity, then wait until you have another 15, get the next, etc. However, this would take 3 weeks for each proposal, so it's not really worth it, and at no net gain of loyalty, which is the real point of doing anything in this game, as loyalty lets you win. I think that my timing idea will work, though, so we should try that. It allows you to get your commodities back with only the minimum amount of hassle. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Mon Jun 22 15:35:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15421 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:35:44 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA02102; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a016.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28189; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:35:26 -0400 Date: 22 Jun 98 18:40:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] ERROR From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 144 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, Jun 22, 1998 4:08 AM, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>As I recieved no votes to the contrary, CFJ #1 passes. I have updated the >>web site to reflect this change. > >Err, what CFJ was that then? Or did you mean ERROR#1, as is the subject >line? Oops! Sorry, I meant ERROR 1. My mistake. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Mon Jun 22 15:41:13 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15450 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:41:11 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA02749; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a016.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02597; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:40:53 -0400 Date: 22 Jun 98 18:45:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Secretary of Membership/Friendship From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 145 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, Jun 22, 1998 4:14 AM, Andy T Harrison wrote: >Well, I'm still assuming that I'm holding the position of SoF, as I was >holding both SoF and SoM at the time they merged. As the title has been >specifically changed by a proposal, I would agree with you that any >reference to SoM should infact be SoF. Yes, you are still SoF, I just got screwed up on the SoM position. When objects were added, some proposal or other made objects controlled by the Secretary of Membership, but tradable objects were controlled by the Secretary of Economics. That's why I didn't know who the position should go to. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From atharrison@wavetek.com Tue Jun 23 00:49:17 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16995 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:49:16 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA14550 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825662C.002B1499 ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:50:33 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025662C.002AE412.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:52:03 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? X-archive-position: 146 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >win. I think that my timing idea will work, though, so we should try that. >It allows you to get your commodities back with only the minimum amount of >hassle. No, I agree with JT on this. We should not try to change things by the order of the proposals. I think that all proposals become inactive simultaneously. It's easy enough for Dan to retract his proposal (or just let it fail) and for JT to give him some commodities. As JT has been kind enough to make this offer, I see no reason for Dan to decline it. (JT might even think about sharing the loyalty with Dan as well for all the difference it would make) -- The Kid From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Tue Jun 23 02:04:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17288 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:04:12 -0700 Received: by mail with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3-Server (v2.10) for at Tue, 23 Jun 98 11:01:24 +0200 Message-ID: <358F7087.92696039@docnet.de> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:08:24 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "The People's Republic of Macronomic" , lambda@world.std.com Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes 79-86 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 147 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 79: LOYAL, 80: LOYAL, 81: LOYAL, 83: LOYAL 84: AGAINST (delimited???), 85: FOR, 86: AGAINST Ember From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 23 07:00:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18058 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:00:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:00:43 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: <8025662C.002AE412.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 148 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >No, I agree with JT on this. We should not try to change things by the >order of the proposals. I think that all proposals become inactive >simultaneously. It's easy enough for Dan to retract his proposal (or just Actually, the ordering of proposals doesn't matter. The ordering of when the current proposals become inactive and when the new ones become active does. IE, there is an infinitesimal (or did we actually pass the 24 hour delay clause?) where the current proposals will have been resolved and the new proposals will still be preactive. I misread the first post, but after re-reading it and realizing that this is what was being suggested, I certainly don't object to it. >let it fail) and for JT to give him some commodities. As JT has been kind >enough to make this offer, I see no reason for Dan to decline it. (JT might >even think about sharing the loyalty with Dan as well for all the >difference it would make) Well, since that prop was an RP prop, I shouldn't need too, since I only get 10 and he can get 3 by voting loyal, so effectively I have shared it with him (and with everyone else :) I also didn't write the loyalty shareing into the rules and loyalty score is not something that can be manipulated without proposals/rules and I'm not going to retract the prop to add that line to it :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Tue Jun 23 09:14:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18485 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:14:36 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18680 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825662C.00596487 ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:16:24 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025662C.0059D2B7.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:21:59 +0100 Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes 79-86 X-archive-position: 149 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 79: LOYAL 80: LOYAL 81: LOYAL 83: LOYAL 84: LOYAL 85: FOR 86: FOR -- The Kid From Dan2000@usa.net Tue Jun 23 10:14:33 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18672 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:14:24 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.55] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yoWd5-0006Mm-00; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:13:15 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980623181213.00690c90@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:12:13 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals - how many bluddy replys to this e-mail have their been? In-Reply-To: References: <8025662C.002AE412.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 150 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 07:00 23-06-98 -0700, JT wrote: >Well, since that prop was an RP prop, I shouldn't need too, since I only >get 10 and he can get 3 by voting loyal, so effectively I have shared it >with him (and with everyone else :) I also didn't write the loyalty >shareing into the rules and loyalty score is not something that can be >manipulated without proposals/rules and I'm not going to retract the prop >to add that line to it :) > >--JT I am happy now, I will gladly accept your offer of the commodities Jt, but i would not expect you to give me any loyalty, you diserve the credit for your proposal. I will retract my proposal now. Thanks Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 23 19:28:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20506 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:28:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:28:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Re: [Macronomic] State mines. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 151 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Jason Reed wrote: >Shoot, it's the beginning of a new week, isn't it? Umm.. yeah.. since we're in UTC :) >Oh well. I operate the state mines anyway, for an idea. So noted, and I will do the page update in a short while. BTW, you sent this to the wrong email address :) I've replied to the correct one. We have at least one player who might not be on the list at bloomington (Dan/Aidan) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 23 19:35:01 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20549 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:35:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:35:00 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] altering proposals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980623181213.00690c90@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 152 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >I am happy now, I will gladly accept your offer of the commodities Jt, but >i would not expect you to give me any loyalty, you diserve the credit for >your proposal. I will retract my proposal now. Okay. I give you one of each type of commodity. The page (as I said to Philo) will be updated shortly with the weekly commodity creations. ---JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Jun 23 19:40:03 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20577 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:40:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:40:02 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] State Mines and trades Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 153 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I operate the state mines for 1 Term. I perform my weekly trade of 1 Word for 1 Idea with Towsner. I perform my weekly trade of 1 Term for 1 Idea with Lambda. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Tue Jun 23 22:32:59 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21051 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:32:55 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA01499; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a006.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA17199; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:32:28 -0400 Date: 23 Jun 98 23:38:19 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Professor From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 154 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I think that the SotU is supposed to assign a professor to Dan, according to Section 5. Since there is only one professor, that shouldn't be too hard. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Tue Jun 23 22:38:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21077 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:38:43 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA01921; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a006.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA20075; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:38:19 -0400 Date: 24 Jun 98 01:42:58 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Update From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 155 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, I've updated the website. I calculated the loyalties myself, so they aren't official until The Kid blesses them (please check my arithmetic; I may have gotten it wrong). JT may note that I have made two proposals and Philo has made one, so our stats should be updated accordingly (I have already done this on my Players page). And ERROR 2 passed, so I made the necessary changes there. By the way, Dan, if you want loyalty (and everyone wants loyalty, since you need it to win), you'd better start voting soon. I haven't recieved a single vote from you yet. Oh, and sorry this update is a few hours late. It's still Tuesday in Hawaii. :) --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From atharrison@wavetek.com Wed Jun 24 01:22:22 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21601 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:22:21 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA28950 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825662D.002E2012 ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:23:48 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025662D.002D4EE4.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:29:23 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update X-archive-position: 156 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >OK, I've updated the website. I calculated the loyalties myself, so they >aren't official until The Kid blesses them (please check my arithmetic; I >may have gotten it wrong). JT may note that I have made two proposals and They all look ok except Towsner & Ember Here's my rekoning: Player PrevLP Change NewLP JT 270 +10 280 Philo 234 0 234 Towsner 196 +20 216 Lambda 257 +20 277 The Kid 214 +15 229 Ember 53 +12 65 Narf 0 -70 0 Dan 0 -70 0 As far as I remember it's only RP that have used the state mines so far, so there's been no change in anyones loyalty because of them. Narf: I'll swap you two of my words for two of your terms, if you're interested? Ember: Two of my ideas for two of your terms? -- The Kid From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Wed Jun 24 02:18:53 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA21753 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:18:50 -0700 Received: by mail with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3-Server (v2.10) for at Wed, 24 Jun 98 10:51:02 +0200 Message-ID: <3590BF9A.D0865DF@docnet.de> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:58:02 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update References: <8025662D.002D4EE4.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 157 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net > Ember: Two of my ideas for two of your terms? OK, agreed! I *need* ideas.Ember > -- > The Kid From Dan2000@usa.net Wed Jun 24 02:23:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA21778 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:23:42 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.42] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yolks-0006IL-00; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:22:14 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980624102135.00690a08@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:21:35 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes 79-86 In-Reply-To: <8025662C.0059D2B7.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 158 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 17:21 23-06-98 +0100, The Kid wrote: > >79: LOYAL >80: LOYAL >81: LOYAL >83: LOYAL >84: LOYAL >85: FOR >86: FOR Am i missing something here? I have not recieved any mail regarding these proposals so i presume that it has not been sent through the mailing list, so how come people are voting before they have seen the proposals? Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From Dan2000@usa.net Wed Jun 24 02:31:38 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA21811 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:31:36 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.5] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yolsa-0006i7-00; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:30:13 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980624102705.00690aec@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:27:05 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Professor In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 159 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 23:38 23-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >I think that the SotU is supposed to assign a professor to Dan, according >to Section 5. Since there is only one professor, that shouldn't be too >hard. I already have a professor, it's towsner. /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 07:13:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22579 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:13:42 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update In-Reply-To: <8025662D.002D4EE4.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 160 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Andy T Harrison wrote: >>OK, I've updated the website. I calculated the loyalties myself, so they >>aren't official until The Kid blesses them (please check my arithmetic; I >>may have gotten it wrong). JT may note that I have made two proposals and > >They all look ok except Towsner & Ember >Here's my rekoning: > >Player PrevLP Change NewLP >JT 270 +10 280 >Philo 234 0 234 >Towsner 196 +20 216 >Lambda 257 +20 277 >The Kid 214 +15 229 >Ember 53 +12 65 >Narf 0 -70 0 >Dan 0 -70 0 I will refund commodities for passed proposals today as well. Other than that, they look right. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 07:18:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22615 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:18:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes 79-86 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980624102135.00690a08@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 161 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >At 17:21 23-06-98 +0100, The Kid wrote: >> >>79: LOYAL >>80: LOYAL >>81: LOYAL >>83: LOYAL >>84: LOYAL >>85: FOR >>86: FOR > >Am i missing something here? I have not recieved any mail regarding these >proposals so i presume that it has not been sent through the mailing list, >so how come people are voting before they have seen the proposals? Dan, These are the proposals from last week. They were sent through the mailing list. You should also check (at least once a week after Wednesday), the web page at http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ which has all of the current proposals, etc on it. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 14:22:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23653 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:22:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Asset updates Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 162 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net The assets page (http://www.nausicaa.net/~jtraub/macro/assets.html) has been updated with the results of this past weeks voting and with the trade between Ember and The Kid. For this past weeks proposals (79-87) the following commodity sets (1 of each) were awarded for accepted proposals. JT: 2 Towsner: 2 Lambda: 1 I had forgotten to do this for proposals 69-78 (the proposal which made the rule which causes this happened before the proposals passed, so they should have been done at the beginning of last week, but I missed it) So, for proposals 69-78, the following sets were awarded. JT: 3 Lambda: 3 Towsner: 1 Philo: 1 The pages reflect all of these commodities now. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 24 15:43:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24122 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:43:22 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA20129; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a004.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA00486; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:43:03 -0400 Date: 24 Jun 98 18:47:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes 79-86 From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 163 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 24, 1998 5:21 AM, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >Am i missing something here? I have not recieved any mail regarding these >proposals so i presume that it has not been sent through the mailing list, >so how come people are voting before they have seen the proposals? Your Professor should have told you to check the MacroNomic webpage, at http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/. This contains all of the information that I'm supposed to manage, as well as some I'm not. :) You can find all of the proposals, the current ruleset, and my votes there, as well as the past CFJs, ERRORs, Papers, player info, a FAQ, links to other pages, and some past proposals. That's where the logo I was talking about can be found, too. I update it at least once a week (when all of the proposals pass or fail and the new ones are distributed), but try to update the Players page a little more often. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Wed Jun 24 16:41:34 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24343 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:41:30 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.22] (ip22.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.22]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25171 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:46:13 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Re: [Macronomic] State mines. X-archive-position: 164 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Oh well. I operate the state mines anyway, for an idea. Oh right. I operate them for a word. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jreed@itis.com Wed Jun 24 18:08:19 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24672 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:08:18 -0700 Received: from [209.83.13.26] (a9-26.itis.com [209.83.13.26]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08091 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:07:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:14:48 -0500 To: mnomic From: Jason Reed Subject: [MacroNomic] [Macronomic] Trading X-archive-position: 165 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I would like to trade any quantity up to 3 of Words or Terms for an equal number of Ideas. I would like to trade either one of my proposal mines for 4 Acres of Vote Farm. I would like to trade 5 Words or Terms or any 5-commodity combination thereof for one Acre of Vote Farm. That is all. - Philo (Avid player, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "[Young lady, ] in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 18:59:13 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24828 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:59:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:59:12 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: mnomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] [Macronomic] Trading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 166 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Jason Reed wrote: [trade offers deleted] Philo, When you send mail to the mailing list, it will place the [MacroNomic] text in the subject for you :) When you do it yourself you end up with things like the current subject :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 24 21:27:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25380 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:27:51 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA26489; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a020.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19380; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:27:25 -0400 Date: 25 Jun 98 00:32:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] [Macronomic] Trading From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 167 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 24, 1998 9:59 PM, JT wrote: >Philo, > When you send mail to the mailing list, it will place the [MacroNomic] >text in the subject for you :) When you do it yourself you end up with >things like the current subject :) That's funny, I have been adding [MacroNomic] myself, but I guess it only puts it there if it isn't there already. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 21:32:34 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25418 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:32:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:32:32 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] [Macronomic] Trading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 168 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 25 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >On Wed, Jun 24, 1998 9:59 PM, JT wrote: >>Philo, >> When you send mail to the mailing list, it will place the [MacroNomic] >>text in the subject for you :) When you do it yourself you end up with >>things like the current subject :) > >That's funny, I have been adding [MacroNomic] myself, but I guess it only >puts it there if it isn't there already. It's case sensitive. It looks for '[MacroNomic]' in that case. I should probably fix it to NOT be case sensitive :) (since I maintain the listar sources, I can do that :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Wed Jun 24 21:43:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25458 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:42:06 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA27837; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a020.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA26250; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:41:35 -0400 Date: 25 Jun 98 00:46:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] [Macronomic] Trading From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 169 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, Jun 24, 1998 9:14 PM, Jason Reed wrote: >I would like to trade any quantity up to 3 of Words or Terms for an equal >number of Ideas. >I would like to trade either one of my proposal mines for 4 Acres of Vote Farm. >I would like to trade 5 Words or Terms or any 5-commodity combination >thereof for one Acre of Vote Farm. I will trade you 2 of my Ideas for 2 of your Terms, as well as your Term mine for 4 of my acres, with an oath (on both sides) that we will trade back on request for the next 30 days (just in case). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 21:51:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25505 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:51:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:51:46 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] [Macronomic] Trading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 170 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 25 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >On Wed, Jun 24, 1998 9:14 PM, Jason Reed wrote: >>I would like to trade any quantity up to 3 of Words or Terms for an equal >>number of Ideas. >>I would like to trade either one of my proposal mines for 4 Acres of Vote >Farm. >>I would like to trade 5 Words or Terms or any 5-commodity combination >>thereof for one Acre of Vote Farm. > >I will trade you 2 of my Ideas for 2 of your Terms, This trade has been done on the pages. >as well as your Term >mine for 4 of my acres, with an oath (on both sides) that we will trade >back on request for the next 30 days (just in case). I'll wait on the acknowledgment of the oaths before putting this trade on the page. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 22:02:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25589 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:02:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:02:45 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 171 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 88, 89, and 90 are mine. 91: FOR 92: FOR 93: FOR - I have one reservation about this and that is that nothing is specified about what happens if the player doesn't agree to take the offices. However, that's a small thing to fix via proposal, and isn't enough to make me vote against this one. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Jun 24 22:43:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26280 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:43:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [macronomic] Testing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 172 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I'm just testing to see if my case insensitive compare on the subject line works correctly. If there is only one instance of macronomic in the subject line, then it did :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 07:35:24 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27849 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:35:20 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.106] (ip106.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.106]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22277 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:16:07 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 173 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 88:FOR 89:AGAINST If private and personal's take place when received, then the SoT could just not check e-mail for the last day or two of the week (when many players submit e-mail) and the votes would not have occurred. In fact, many e-mail clients can be configured not to fetch mail from a certain person, but to leave it on the server. 90:FOR 91:FOR 92:FOR 93:FOR -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From Dan2000@usa.net Thu Jun 25 11:16:28 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28537 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:16:24 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.38] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ypGY3-0002Me-00; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:15:04 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980625191534.0069434c@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:15:34 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] votes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 174 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net here are my first ever votes on anything, ever: 88: For 89: None, i am undecided on this one, I agree with Henry about the problem with the dishonesty factor regarding the SoT, but there is some useful clarification in there too. Surely we can trust the SoT? Anyway, can someone please give me "0000utc" in "Greenwich Mean Time" or some other time zone i don't understand where utc is. 90: For 91: For 92: For 93: For Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 25 11:21:59 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28568 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:21:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980625191534.0069434c@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 175 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >88: For >89: None, i am undecided on this one, I agree with Henry about the problem >with the dishonesty factor regarding the SoT, but there is some useful >clarification in there too. Surely we can trust the SoT? Anyway, can >someone please give me "0000utc" in "Greenwich Mean Time" or some other >time zone i don't understand where utc is. >90: For >91: For >92: For >93: For As a note Aidan, you most likely want to vote Loyal and get the 3 loyalty points per proposal rather than no points for voting for. It's also no longer required (though it is allowed) to vote publically :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 25 11:29:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28600 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:29:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:29:31 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980625191534.0069434c@pop.amexmail.com > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 176 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >89: None, i am undecided on this one, I agree with Henry about the problem >with the dishonesty factor regarding the SoT, but there is some useful >clarification in there too. Surely we can trust the SoT? Anyway, can >someone please give me "0000utc" in "Greenwich Mean Time" or some other >time zone i don't understand where utc is. While Henry's comment is valid, I didn't change anything related to how quickly the SoT had to act. In fact, as the rules stand right NOW with them being private submissions, the SoT could in fact 'ignore' them the same way as Henry specified in his objections. All this proposal does is add a way of ordering events. I agree that right now the rules rely in trusting the various secretaries, and perhaps some sort of 'speed' rule should be implemented. However, it's useless to talk about how fast something must be done without having a way of specifiying the time at which things occur. I do hope Henry will reconsider and vote for this proposal, and I suspect someone in the next batch will (after this discussion) be defining some sort of speed rule. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 11:51:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28674 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:51:47 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.136] (ip136.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.136]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21616 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:51:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980625191534.0069434c@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:53:21 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes X-archive-position: 177 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >them being private submissions, the SoT could in fact 'ignore' them the >same way as Henry specified in his objections. All this proposal does is Not legally. The votes were still sent and are still legal. Any system can fall apart if players cheat, under your proposal any secretary (the SoT was just an example) could LEGALLY block anything by filtering out mail. Other than that I have no problem with your proposal. If you could fix it so that it says something like "when received or 24 hours after being sent, whichever comes first." And perhaps say that all mail sent to the list is valid when the list gets it, regardless of whether the message was public or private. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 25 11:58:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28710 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:58:50 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:58:50 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 178 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>them being private submissions, the SoT could in fact 'ignore' them the >>same way as Henry specified in his objections. All this proposal does is > Not legally. The votes were still sent and are still legal. Any >system can fall apart if players cheat, under your proposal any secretary >(the SoT was just an example) could LEGALLY block anything by filtering out >mail. I don't quite agree with you there since their server (which is what datestamps the message) has still recieved it. > Other than that I have no problem with your proposal. If you could >fix it so that it says something like "when received or 24 hours after >being sent, whichever comes first." And perhaps say that all mail sent to >the list is valid when the list gets it, regardless of whether the message >was public or private. The problem is that you don't *know* or have anyway to validate when it was 'sent'. I could claim it was sent 3 days ago and just got held up at a router someplace. That's exactly the sort of ambiguity I was trying to removed. I thought i specified that mail to the list was stamped with the list. If I didn't, and this passes, I will fix it. If it fails, I will fix it and repropose. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Thu Jun 25 12:32:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is2.u-net.net (serv1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.130.23]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28840 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:32:43 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.35] by serv1.is2.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0ypHUk-0005al-00; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:15:42 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980625203205.0069780c@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:32:05 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net, macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980625191534.0069434c@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 179 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 11:21 25-06-98 -0700, JT wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >>88: For >>89: None, i am undecided on this one, I agree with Henry about the problem >>with the dishonesty factor regarding the SoT, but there is some useful >>clarification in there too. Surely we can trust the SoT? Anyway, can >>someone please give me "0000utc" in "Greenwich Mean Time" or some other >>time zone i don't understand where utc is. >>90: For >>91: For >>92: For >>93: For > >As a note Aidan, you most likely want to vote Loyal and get the 3 loyalty >points per proposal rather than no points for voting for. It's also no >longer required (though it is allowed) to vote publically :) > >--JT gud idea, here are the modified votes: 88: loyal 89: loyal (i will trust the judgment of the mrps) 90: loyal 91: loyal 92: for 93: for also i have been having some trouble contacting lambda so i am doing everything this way. I have been getting a "mail delivery failed" e-mail back. Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 25 13:43:58 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29084 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:43:55 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA04636; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a001.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA13934; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:40:13 -0400 Date: 25 Jun 98 16:44:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 180 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 3:32 PM, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >also i have been having some trouble contacting lambda so i am doing >everything this way. I have been getting a "mail delivery failed" e-mail >back. What address have you been sending it to? I'm not having any trouble recieving mail from anyone else, and I got your firt proposal fine. My address is , in case you have it typed wrong. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 13:50:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29118 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:50:30 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.10] (ip10.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.10]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22517 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:54:33 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes X-archive-position: 181 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I don't quite agree with you there since their server (which is what >datestamps the message) has still recieved it. I may be alone, but I wouldn't consider Earthlink having gotten the message to be the same as me receiving it. >The problem is that you don't *know* or have anyway to validate when it >was 'sent'. I could claim it was sent 3 days ago and just got held up at >a router someplace. That's exactly the sort of ambiguity I was trying to >removed. I thought i specified that mail to the list was stamped with the >list. If I didn't, and this passes, I will fix it. If it fails, I will >fix it and repropose. I won't vote for it, because the scamability is too big, but I will vote for a fixed version. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From lambda@world.std.com Thu Jun 25 13:50:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29126 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:50:37 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA05731; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a001.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA22733; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:50:12 -0400 Date: 25 Jun 98 16:54:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 182 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 1:02 AM, JT wrote: >93: FOR - I have one reservation about this and that is that nothing is > specified about what happens if the player doesn't agree to take > the offices. However, that's a small thing to fix via proposal, > and isn't enough to make me vote against this one. Then you can't go on vacation :). After all, you always have to have someone to fill in the secretarial positions, and you can't go on vacation and just leave the jobs open. Maybe another prop can make the positions go to the SoCC if no one else agrees to take them. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 25 20:47:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA30862 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:47:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:47:34 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 183 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>I don't quite agree with you there since their server (which is what >>datestamps the message) has still recieved it. > I may be alone, but I wouldn't consider Earthlink having gotten the >message to be the same as me receiving it. *shrug* I would. :) Earthlink stuck it in your mailbox at X time, that is the time in the header of the message, thus is the earliest possible time it was recievable by you. >>The problem is that you don't *know* or have anyway to validate when it >>was 'sent'. I could claim it was sent 3 days ago and just got held up at >>a router someplace. That's exactly the sort of ambiguity I was trying to >>removed. I thought i specified that mail to the list was stamped with the >>list. If I didn't, and this passes, I will fix it. If it fails, I will >>fix it and repropose. > > I won't vote for it, because the scamability is too big, but I will >vote for a fixed version. Okay, let me proto-propose the following. If this seems reasonable, I'll then retract the current one and propose this in it's stead. PROTO-PROPOSAL Timing Amend Section 0-2 'Accessibility' by adding the following OYE delmited text to the end of the section. OYE A message is considered to be recieved by a person when it has been recieved by the computer which serves as host for the mailbox associated with that player. OYE Retitle section 0-3 to 'Timeline'. Amend section 0-3 to read in full as delimited by TICK_TOCK TICK_TOCK A Macronomic week begins every Wednesday at 0000UTC. Public messages sent to the official list (if such a list exists) shall be deemed to have occured at the time they are recieved by the machine hosting the official list. Otherwise, they shall be deemed to have occured at the time the message was recieved by the Secratary of the Central Committee. Private and Personal message are deemed to have happened at the earliest time which the message was recieved by the relevant person or persons, or by the machine hosting the official list, if such a list exists and the message was private and sent to the list. If a game action is specified to happen every day and the time of the action isn't specified, then the action occurs at 0001UTC on the day specified. If a game action is specified to happen every week and the time of the action isn't specified, then the action occurs at 0001UTC on Wednesday of that week. If a game action is specified to occur every month, and the time of the action isn't specified, then the action occurs at 0001UTC on the first Wednesday of that month. If a game action is specified to occur every year, and the time of the action isn't specified, then the action occurs at 0001UTC on April 1st. If multiple actions are specified within a single message, then those actions occur in order an infinitesimal amount of time apart. TICK_TOCK Move section 0-3 to section 0-1-0-x where x is the lowest positive unused integer that would create a legal section. END-PROTO-PROPOSAL Does this adequately address your issues with the first one Henry? If not, how would you see it changed? --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Jun 25 20:49:48 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA30885 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:49:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:49:48 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 184 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 25 Jun 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 1:02 AM, JT wrote: >>93: FOR - I have one reservation about this and that is that nothing is >> specified about what happens if the player doesn't agree to take >> the offices. However, that's a small thing to fix via proposal, >> and isn't enough to make me vote against this one. > >Then you can't go on vacation :). After all, you always have to have >someone to fill in the secretarial positions, and you can't go on vacation >and just leave the jobs open. Maybe another prop can make the positions go >to the SoCC if no one else agrees to take them. Well, that was my thought for the correct fix for it :) Since I noticed the problem, I'll probably make the proposal, but I'll probably wait until after I know whether this one passed or failed. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From Dan2000@usa.net Fri Jun 26 12:43:19 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00879 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:43:17 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.61] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ypeNm-0002de-00; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:42:02 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980626204028.006970f8@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:40:28 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 185 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 16:44 25-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 3:32 PM, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >>also i have been having some trouble contacting lambda so i am doing >>everything this way. I have been getting a "mail delivery failed" e-mail >>back. > >What address have you been sending it to? I'm not having any trouble >recieving mail from anyone else, and I got your firt proposal fine. My >address is , in case you have it typed wrong. that's the address i have been sending to, i don't know whats wrong. /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From tows@earthlink.net Sat Jun 27 07:01:53 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01180 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 07:01:51 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.112] (ip112.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.112]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01673 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 07:01:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 10:04:37 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes X-archive-position: 186 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >*shrug* I would. :) Earthlink stuck it in your mailbox at X time, that is >the time in the header of the message, thus is the earliest possible time >it was recievable by you. I wonder if this is a perception difference between people who operate their own server and those who don't. Nontheless, I believe that using the normal English definition of the word, it wouldn't count. >Does this adequately address your issues with the first one Henry? >If not, how would you see it changed? That's fine. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From tows@earthlink.net Sat Jun 27 09:27:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01626 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:27:45 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.40] (ip40.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.40]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25265 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980626204028.006970f8@pop.amexmail.com > References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:31:53 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes X-archive-position: 187 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >that's the address i have been sending to, i don't know whats wrong. Brian, don't you have a hotmail address? Maybe that would work. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 27 11:40:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02262 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:40:34 -0700 Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:40:33 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 188 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>*shrug* I would. :) Earthlink stuck it in your mailbox at X time, that is >>the time in the header of the message, thus is the earliest possible time >>it was recievable by you. > I wonder if this is a perception difference between people who >operate their own server and those who don't. Nontheless, I believe that >using the normal English definition of the word, it wouldn't count. I don't know if that is the source of the perception or not, but even before I ran my own server/domain, I considered mail recieved by me when it showed up in my mailbox, which is maintained by the mail server. --JT >>Does this adequately address your issues with the first one Henry? >>If not, how would you see it changed? > That's fine. Okay. I will look up the proposal number and retract it shortly. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Sat Jun 27 12:02:13 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02372 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:02:08 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA06277; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a012.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10602; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:01:54 -0400 Date: 27 Jun 98 15:06:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 189 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 12:31 PM, Towsner wrote: >>that's the address i have been sending to, i don't know whats wrong. > Brian, don't you have a hotmail address? Maybe that would work. Yes, but I stopped using it after Hotmail was bought by Microsoft. Now I only use that address when I need to give a valid email address to someone but don't want to be spammed (at my real address, that is. I don't care about spam going to my Hotmail address). We've discovered that Dan can contact me through his old address, so it's fine now. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Sat Jun 27 17:13:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03219 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:13:26 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.209] (ip184.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.184]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18105 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:13:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:18:15 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 190 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Is there anyone who can't use PGP encryption? I can think of a number of times it would be good to have private, yet verifiable information, and PGP is the best way I can think of to do it. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From ford@bayside.net Sat Jun 27 18:26:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from windowsnt ([38.179.24.2]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03447 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:26:27 -0700 Received: by windowsnt from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:58:14 -0400 Received: by windowsnt from friend-computer (206.18.116.175::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:58:04 -0400 From: "Ed Murphy" To: Subject: RE: [MacroNomic] votes Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:00:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bda227$cd232a20$af7412ce@friend-computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-reply-to: X-archive-position: 191 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: ford@bayside.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net > From: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net > [mailto:macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net]On Behalf Of Brian Campbell > Sent: Sat 27 Jun 98 12:07 PM > To: macronomic@dragoncat.net > Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes Why am I still getting MacroNomic mail? I unsubscribed from mn@poverty but I'm still getting it here. And majordomo@dragoncat doesn't know of a MN list, so there must be some other way to unsubscribe. Someone remove me, please? Or tell me how to get removed? Thanks. -- Ed Murphy http://www.bayside.net/users/ford/ "A war? Oh, good, more food for my family - all 75 million of 'em. That's a lot of mouths to feed, you know." From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Jun 27 20:54:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03833 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:54:55 -0700 Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:54:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: MacroNomic Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 192 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: > Is there anyone who can't use PGP encryption? I can think of a >number of times it would be good to have private, yet verifiable >information, and PGP is the best way I can think of to do it. My machine is currently *not* set up to do PGP encryption (IE, I don't have it installed and working on my linux box) This isn't to say I couldn't, but as of now I don't. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Sun Jun 28 08:23:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05966 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:23:18 -0700 Received: from [38.26.2.249] (ip249.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.2.249]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17673 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:24:24 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 193 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >My machine is currently *not* set up to do PGP encryption (IE, I don't >have it installed and working on my linux box) This isn't to say I >couldn't, but as of now I don't. At least the way I'm envisioning it, you would only need PGP to do something requireing encryption or to verify someone else's, so actually installing it would be optional, but it would be unfair to use it if not everyone had the option. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From Dan2000@usa.net Sun Jun 28 11:01:57 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06395 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:01:55 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.19] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yqLki-0004zk-00; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:00:36 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980628190024.006946dc@pop.amexmail.com > X-Sender: Dan2000@pop.amexmail.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:00:24 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 194 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: Dan2000@usa.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 20:18 27-06-98 -0400, you wrote: > Is there anyone who can't use PGP encryption? I can think of a >number of times it would be good to have private, yet verifiable >information, and PGP is the best way I can think of to do it. > err, i don't think i can use pgp, cos i don't know what it is, of course i may have the capacity to use it and just don't know it. I don't know.... Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From t.walmsley@lineone.net Sun Jun 28 12:11:02 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from boober.lineone.net (boober-be.lineone.net [194.75.152.84]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06586 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:10:51 -0700 Received: from default (host5-171-227-86.btinternet.com [195.171.227.86]) by boober.lineone.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) with ESMTP id UAA13919 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:10:02 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199806281910.UAA13919@boober.lineone.net> From: "Tom Walmsley" To: Subject: [MacroNomic] Leaving.... Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:08:03 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 195 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: t.walmsley@lineone.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I feel that I really must leave this game. I've not been able to get involved at all and have all but stopped reading the mail. I may be back some day, but for now I must go. So long. TGW. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 28 13:18:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06954 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:18:36 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:18:35 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 196 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>My machine is currently *not* set up to do PGP encryption (IE, I don't >>have it installed and working on my linux box) This isn't to say I >>couldn't, but as of now I don't. > At least the way I'm envisioning it, you would only need PGP to do >something requireing encryption or to verify someone else's, so actually >installing it would be optional, but it would be unfair to use it if not >everyone had the option. I would rather not see a requirement for encryption be added to the rules. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jreed@itis.com Sun Jun 28 14:10:28 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07282 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:10:26 -0700 Received: from [209.83.12.172] (a7-44.itis.com [209.83.12.172]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03545 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:10:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:17:12 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 197 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>>My machine is currently *not* set up to do PGP encryption (IE, I don't >>>have it installed and working on my linux box) This isn't to say I >>>couldn't, but as of now I don't. >> At least the way I'm envisioning it, you would only need PGP to do >>something requireing encryption or to verify someone else's, so actually >>installing it would be optional, but it would be unfair to use it if not >>everyone had the option. > >I would rather not see a requirement for encryption be added to the rules. Yeah. The rules and gamestate are definitely hard enough to understand without being encrypted. - Philo (Avid player, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "[Young lady, ] in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson From tows@earthlink.net Sun Jun 28 14:15:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07317 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:15:12 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.136] (ip136.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.136]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14757 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980628190024.006946dc@pop.amexmail.com > References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:15:13 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 198 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >err, i don't think i can use pgp, cos i don't know what it is, of course i >may have the capacity to use it and just don't know it. I don't know.... PGP is an encryption program. From your headers it looks like you're using windows, and PGP can indeed run on windows. JT- >I would rather not see a requirement for encryption be added to the rules. It seems to me that being able to have secret actions would be interesting. Do other people agree? -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jreed@itis.com Sun Jun 28 14:20:48 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07358 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:20:47 -0700 Received: from [209.83.12.172] (a7-44.itis.com [209.83.12.172]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04365 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:20:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980628190024.006946dc@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:27:33 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 199 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>I would rather not see a requirement for encryption be added to the rules. > It seems to me that being able to have secret actions would be >interesting. Do other people agree? In all honesty, yeah, it could be somewhat interesting, but I don't see it as being worth the effort of making sure (or even trying to encourage) people actually set up PGP who don't have it already. - Philo (Avid player, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "[Young lady, ] in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 28 14:21:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07372 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:21:36 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: >>err, i don't think i can use pgp, cos i don't know what it is, of course i >>may have the capacity to use it and just don't know it. I don't know.... > PGP is an encryption program. From your headers it looks like >you're using windows, and PGP can indeed run on windows. > >JT- >>I would rather not see a requirement for encryption be added to the rules. > It seems to me that being able to have secret actions would be >interesting. Do other people agree? My personal opinion is that the current distinction of private, personal and public is sufficient. I would not like to see secret actions being performed in public (but that's just a personal preference, nothing hard and fast) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 28 14:25:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07401 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:25:45 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:25:45 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Proposal retraction Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 201 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I retract proposal 89. I'll submit the slightly better phrased one shortly. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Sun Jun 28 14:30:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07429 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:30:21 -0700 Received: from [38.26.5.136] (ip136.isdn1-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.5.136]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24799 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980628190024.006946dc@pop.amexmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:33:16 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 202 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >In all honesty, yeah, it could be somewhat interesting, but I don't see it >as being worth the effort of making sure (or even trying to encourage) >people actually set up PGP who don't have it already. What I was thinking of specifically was secret oaths. Two players could make a binding agreement, but unless one of them violated it it wouldn't need to become public. One would make a key and send it to the other, then encrypt the oath and send it publicly. The second player would ensure that it was right, and publicly agree with it, without saying what was in it. If there were a dispute either player could send the unencrypted version along with the key for anyone who wanted to to verify the decryption. -- -Henry Towsner Success is the child of audacity. -Benjamin Disraeli From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Jun 28 14:34:42 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07458 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:34:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:34:42 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 203 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Towsner wrote: > What I was thinking of specifically was secret oaths. Two players >could make a binding agreement, but unless one of them violated it it >wouldn't need to become public. One would make a key and send it to the >other, then encrypt the oath and send it publicly. The second player would >ensure that it was right, and publicly agree with it, without saying what >was in it. If there were a dispute either player could send the >unencrypted version along with the key for anyone who wanted to to verify >the decryption. This is something I would particularly dislike seeing. Something like that should (imho) be public knowledge. There is nothing stopping players from making non-binding agreements in private. binding agreements should be a matter of public record, and I would object to any proposal to make them secret. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Jun 29 00:49:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09168 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:49:30 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA05574 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256632.002B0374 ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:49:49 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256632.002AD595.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:48:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Question X-archive-position: 204 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net > Is there anyone who can't use PGP encryption? I can think of a >number of times it would be good to have private, yet verifiable >information, and PGP is the best way I can think of to do it. I don't think I can do that. At least, if I can, I havn't got a clue how. -- The Kid From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Mon Jun 29 11:58:59 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11086 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:58:56 -0700 Received: by mail with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3-Server (v2.10) for at Mon, 29 Jun 98 20:56:14 +0200 Message-ID: <3597E3D1.C12F4F89@docnet.de> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:58:26 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lambda@world.std.com, "The People's Republic of Macronomic" Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes 88-93 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 205 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 88: LOYAL, 89: LOYAL, 90: LOYAL, 91: LOYAL, 92: FOR, 93: FOR Ember From jreed@itis.com Mon Jun 29 18:55:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12783 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:55:28 -0700 Received: from [209.83.15.204] (a20-12.itis.com [209.83.15.204]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16737 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:55:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:02:06 -0500 To: mnomic From: Jason Reed Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 206 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 88: FOR, I guess. I voted against a similar proposal a while ago which also included self-repealing text, but I'm noe feeling more like at least having explicitly-defined comments is a marginally useful thing. 89: FOR, sure. Although lots of proposals in one message are submitted infintesimal times apart, to proposals *pass* in a similar sequence, too? I suspect they ought to... 90: Er..... AGAINST, but just barely. 92: FOR. I was actually picturing papers netting like one acre of vote farm, but this is fine. 93: FOR - Philo (Avid player, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "[Young lady, ] in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson From lambda@world.std.com Mon Jun 29 22:10:07 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13404 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:10:02 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA06163; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a008.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA06286; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:09:25 -0400 Date: 30 Jun 98 01:14:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 207 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 10:02 PM, Jason Reed wrote: >89: FOR, sure. Although lots of proposals in one message are submitted >infintesimal times apart, to proposals *pass* in a similar sequence, too? I >suspect they ought to... Well, theoretically they should pass exactly one week after they are distributed. However, it's a moot point as this has been retracted and resubmitted in a slightly different form (you'll see tomorow. er... later today) --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jreed@itis.com Tue Jun 30 18:37:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from portcullis.itis.com (portcullis.itis.com [209.83.0.27]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17195 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:37:48 -0700 Received: from [209.83.12.164] (a7-36.itis.com [209.83.12.164]) by portcullis.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01046 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:37:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jreed@pop.itis.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:44:30 -0500 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Jason Reed Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 208 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jreed@itis.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 10:02 PM, Jason Reed wrote: >>89: FOR, sure. Although lots of proposals in one message are submitted >>infintesimal times apart, to proposals *pass* in a similar sequence, too? >I >>suspect they ought to... > >Well, theoretically they should pass exactly one week after they are >distributed. However, it's a moot point as this has been retracted and >resubmitted in a slightly different form (you'll see tomorow. er... later >today) Er, stupid me for not paying attention. I was also thinking as if the proposals-all-get-resolved-at-a-certain-time-of-the-week prop had already passed. - Philo (Avid player, Macronomic) jreed@itis.com -- http://kyogen.com/pascal/ "[Young lady, ] in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson From lambda@world.std.com Tue Jun 30 23:09:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.109a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18108 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:09:41 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA19342; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a001.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03216; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:09:13 -0400 Date: 1 Jul 98 02:13:59 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Stuff From: "Brian Campbell" To: "MacroNomic" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 209 X-listar-version: Listar v0.109a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Allright, all of the MN stuff is up on the webpage. JT: I submitted 5 props, and modified the stuff on my Players page accordingly, and Towsner made 8 props, but retracted 2, leaving him with 6 props total, which I also recorded on my Players page. In addition, you had 2 props pass, so you gain 2 of each type, Philo had one pass, and I had two pass. I have recorded this, too, on my players page. The Kid: I never recieved any votes from you for this round. Here is how I calculate the Loyalty (tell me if I missed anything. After all, you are the SoF): JT Traub: 10+10-3=17 <-- Added this round +280 <-- Original ---- 297 Philo: 10=10 <-- Added this round +234 <-- Original ---- 244 Towsner: 0=0 <-- Added this round +216 <-- Original ---- 216 Lambda: 15+15+3+3+3=39 <-- Added this round +277 <-- Original ---- 316 The Kid: -10-10-10-10-10=-50 <-- Added this round +229 <-- Original ---- 179 Ember: 3+3+3=9 <-- Added this round +65 <-- Original ---- 74 Dan: 3+3+3=9 <-- Added this round +0 <-- Original ---- 74 Narf: -10-10-10-10-10=-50 <-- Added this round +0 <-- Original ---- 0 Philo: So, do you want to make the Prop Mines/Vote Farm trade? I haven't heard a reply from you on that. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum.