Subject: Proposal submission

From: "Mark Nau" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:59:49 -0800

To create a new rule entitled "Pill Exchange"

A player wishing to make a pill exchange shall notify the Nurse of the
exchange e wants to make, and the Nurse shall adjust the number of pills
that player owns, provided the exchange is explicitly authorized by the
Ruleset.

A player may exchange two green pills for one red pill.
A player may exchange one red pill and one blue pill for one yellow pill.

-Mark Nau

---

From: Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:36:30 -0600

[The following proposal removes the section called "Nurse" in Rule 14 and
makes it its own rule for additions and modifications.]

===

I hereby propose the following:

Proposal 1:
Amend Rule 14 removing the Section labeled "Nurse".

Proposal 2:
Create a new Rule [15?] labeled "Nurse" which states the following:

The name of the player who holds the office of Nurse shall be part of the
gamestate. The Nurse keeps track of people's Prescriptions. As compensation
for such duties, the Nurse shall receive 2 soul points, 5 body points, and
3 additional green pills during each Office Hours to keep em healthy.

If a player wants to take a pill, e notifies that nurse of it via email.
The Nurse shall then administer (adjust) the number of pills that player
owns according to the notification.

When the Nurse administers pills, e must also take one green pill as
preventive medicine, lose 1 body point for being exposed to infection, and
gain 1 soul point for being such a good player. If the Nurse fails to take
the preventive medicine before the next Office Hours, e shall lose 5 body
points and 3 soul points for being so foolish.

The Nurse shall be deemed "susceptible to infection" when eir body points
is below 75. At this point, the Nurse will be infected with any disease or
disorder that e administers pills for. If eir body points is below 35, Doc
must choose a new Nurse to take over. The Nurse may convert eir soul points
to body points at a ration of 2:1 at any time to stay "healthy".

The Nurse's actions shall be announced to the other Players and Doc via
email by making a Proclamation of Administration listing all actions
requested by other players and the Nurse. Doc will then adjust the
gamestate to reflect the Administration adjustments. Failure to make at
least one Proclomation of Administration between Office Hours events shall
reduce the Nurse's body and soul points by 25 points each.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 14 Dec 2000 14:52:13 -0500

Welcome, Mark!

Speaking of the Nurse, he has no way to change the pill totals as long
as they're shown on my web site... so I've moved the player
information into an eGroups "Database" (table) at
<http://www.egroups.com/database/DocNomic?method=reportRows&tbl=2>.
Ottis should be able to modify this (don't abuse your new Moderator
status, Ottis...)

-- 
- Doc

---

From: Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:12:23 -0600

No problem. You may want to modify my last proposal to reflect that change.

At 02:52 PM 12/14/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email-masked]
>
>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:28:14 -0000

> gamestate. The Nurse keeps track of people's Prescriptions.

Hm, might it be a good idea for the Nurse to keep tabs on Diseases 
and Soul Points and the rest, actually? It seems a little clumsy to 
have the Nurse decrementing Pill counts and waiting for Doc to remove 
any cured Diseases or make any Point adjustments.

> As compensation

Hmm, "Cash" is seeming more of a useful thing...

> points and 3 soul points for being so foolish.

Soul gain aside, this all seems a bit harsh; surely it's in the 
interests of the game for people to *want* to be the Nurse? I'd 
rather see it being a role with hefty reward that people were 
fighting for, than something so dangerous that Doc ends up doing it 
instead.

Although now that we've got the eGroups database thing (which is 
rather suaver than I expected it to be, to be honest), is it maybe 
worth getting rid of the Nurse role and having Players update their 
own details? Whenever you take a Pill, update your Pill count and/or 
Diseases yourself, and post a message to the list saying what you've 
done (maybe quoting before-and-after versions of the database table, 
so that we can backtrack any dodginess). The ability to have things 
take effect immediately, and to remove the need for a given Player to 
be awake and enthusiastic, seems rather appealing...

Alternatively, Doc or I could pen a script similar to the eGroups 
thing that automatically logged who changed what and when (which 
might be a better idea anyway; if the eGroups database can only be 
set to be edited by admin or "all members", we don't really want 
passers-by buggering about with it).

I'd be up for coughing some perl out this weekend, if people (or, at 
least, Doc, this being Imperial) were in favour. Speak now.

Kevan

--
http://uncertain.org/~kevan
"Do you smoke?" "No." "How many a day?" "Forty."
"Right, so you don't smoke forty a day."

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 10:32:52 -0500

> any cured Diseases or make any Point adjustments.

Yep.

> Hmm, "Cash" is seeming more of a useful thing...

Maybe...

> fighting for, than something so dangerous that Doc ends up doing it 

Definitely. The whole point to the Nurse is to spread the load a bit
-- if no one takes the job and I have to do it, it could get ugly...

> own details? 

Worth thinking about anyway.

> passers-by buggering about with it).

Well, we could either set up the group to require approval before
people become members, or we could make all Players moderators.

> least, Doc, this being Imperial) were in favour. Speak now.

Go ahead and rough something out -- if it looks promising we can
smooth out details and use it.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:40:38 -0600

Medical Brief (Point of Order)

>From my experience with other Imperial style Nomic games, other players
didn't have a say in whether a proposal was accepted or rejected. They just
had to deal with the outcome. If they didn't like a proposal, then they
would modify the rule after it was accepted. Should we make Kevan an
"Intern" or something so that he can legally have an oppinion before a
proposal is accepted?

The idea behind gaining or losing Soul points was to establish a
reward/punishment system for a player playing Nurse with the idea that to
be Nurse, you get "perks", but you have to do the job. I wouldn't want a
Nurse that never participates because then everyone would end up with a
Chronic Disease. Why are you worried about the negative consequences of the
Nurse anyways? I'm the Nurse right now, and I don't have a problem with it
(I proposed the rule, remember). I would like to see the rule passed and
then amended by other players if they didn't like the stipulations. This
rule has no conflict with the ruleset or apparent theme of the game.

I hereby recommend its approval and acceptance subject to normal amendment
and modification.

Ottis Airhart, Nurse

============

Proposal

I propose that all references to "Point of Order" in the gamestate and
ruleset be renamed "Medical Brief". I also propose that all references to
"Proclomation" in the gamestate and ruleset be renamed "Medical Board
Memorandum".

=============

Proposal

I propose a new rule labeled "Intern" stating the following:

At any point in the game, Doc may appoint an Intern. An Intern's role will
be to help in the decision making process [[a co-Doc]]. Doc may accept,
reject, or ignore the oppinions of the Intern without comment. Doc may
appoint the Intern to temporarily take on the certain responsibilities of
the office of Doc by making a Proclomation [["Medical Board Memorandum"]]
declaring the current responsibilities. This will also be noted under the
Office Holders section in the Gamestate. The Intern, if unable to adjust
the gamestate or ruleset, shall publish updated rules or gamestate
information to the mailing list whereby it shall supercede any other
publication until such time as Doc may make permanent adjustments. [[This
allows for Doc's vacation, but game continuation]]. Doc may at any time
NULL actions performed by the Intern. Any act by a player attempting to
perform Intern duties (opinions, etc) shall be consider "Malpractice" and
that player shall lose 5 Soul points. The Intern will receive 2 Soul points
during each Office Hours for being such a good person.

[[if Cash is ever accepted, then we can then amend this rule to have
further compensation]]

===========

Proposal: Proposals and Appeals Mechanism

I propose the following amendments:

Rule three be modified to include the following text:

Each proposal must have in its Subject line the text: "Proposal:" followed
by a label for the proposal or it shall be ignored. The body of the message
must begin with the following text: "Proposal:" followed by the label for
the proposal or it shall be ignored.

Rule five be modified to include the following text:

Each Point of Order [[Medical Brief]] must have in its Subject line the
text: "Point of Order:" [[or "Medical Brief:"]] followed by a label of the
Proposal or Rule in reference or it shall be ignored. The body of the
message must begin with the following text: "Point of Order:" [[or "Medical
Brief:"]] followed by a label of the Proposal or Rule in reference or it
shall be ignored. Each Proclamation [[Medical Board Memorandum]] shall
follow a similar format at the Doc's discretion.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 12:01:19 -0500

> Medical Brief (Point of Order)

I may issue a Directive one of these days with regard to Points of
Order. As I see it, a POO is the way the judicial system works -- if
there's a disagreement or a perceived illegality or something, that's
the way it's handled. For just talking about the game, I think it's
best to just talk. Otherwise I have to log it as a point of order,
post it to the game state, issue a formal response, etc. Faugh.

So, with your permission, I'll ignore the "POO" designation above and
just talk. OK, I guess there *was* a question about the legality of
posting comments. If you insist, I'll treat that portion of your
message as a POO. If you insist.

> would modify the rule after it was accepted. 

Formally, that's the case here. But my preference is not to run that
way. (And I confess, I've never played Imperial before -- unless you
count The Curvature Of the Earth Is Overwhelmed By Local Noise Nomic,
which I guess is Imperial, but too silly to be taken as a precedent.)
I am not only willing but eager to hear comments on proposals before I
take action -- I don't always notice the flaws, or the brilliant
touches for that matter.

> Should we make Kevan an

Having an opinion is legal -- and encouraged. I didn't put the
"Anything not forbidden is allowed (except for changing the rules and
gamestate, where anything not allowed is forbidden)" clause in the
ruleset, but I consider it to be in effect.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:20:58 -0000

> "Intern" or something so that he can legally have an oppinion 
before a

Hm, what? I thought Doc had taken the "post Proposals to the list" 
approach so that people could just comment generally and maybe spot 
rule flaws that he might overlook. I admit, from experience, Imperial 
Nomics tend to operate with Proposals going straight to the Emperor 
and only becoming public knowledge after they've passed or failed, 
but this difference in approach seems fairly useful.

Although it is becoming mildly confusing keeping track of what's 
passed and what's pending-but-likely-to-pass. That may just be me, 
though.

> Chronic Disease.

A good point; the "reward per activity" Soul thing is far better than 
a flat weekly reward. Some of the penalties just seemed too harsh, 
though, particularly the Disease-catching, the fines for forgetting 
to do things (or, indeed, simply not being able to take a Green pill 
for every Pill another Player takes; with seven or eight Active 
Players taking their medicine every week, the Nurse would soon run 
out of Greens, even if she gets three free ones).

> Why are you worried about the negative consequences of the
> (I proposed the rule, remember).

Well, admirable of you to put such negativities in when you knew 
they'd be affecting you, but ultimately it's quite possible that the 
post of Nurse would eventually pass to someone else, and I think it's 
important to make the role appealing rather than ominous. Penalties 
for not doing the job at *all* might be a good idea, though, to stop 
anyone simply claiming the role for its rewards, or to stop other 
Players getting their Pills.

But this is fairly academic stuff if we go with a Player-maintained 
cgi-script thing, of course.

> I would like to see the rule passed and

Naturally. I'm not decrying it as illegal, just offering my thoughts. 
Doc is, of course, entirely free to ignore my opinion and laugh at 
me. Forgive me if I came across as 'voting'.

Nice work on the Intern Proposal, anyway; it'd be handy to have an 
official way for Doc to let someone else take over the reigns, or 
some of them, for a while.

One thing, though:-

> Any act by a player attempting to
> that player shall lose 5 Soul points.

Hm? Penalties for non-Interns expressing opinions? Am I reading this 
correctly?

> by a label for the proposal or it shall be ignored. [...]

A sterling idea. It's becoming quite a pain to find particular 
Proposals amid the mailing list archive.

Kevan

--
http://uncertain.org/~kevan
"Leave me alone, I was only singing."

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 12:36:21 -0500

> Proposals amid the mailing list archive.

Case in point: I didn't see the Intern proposal (or the others in the
same message) until Ottis and Kevan referred to them later. They were
below Ottis's signature, which was at the bottom of the window, and I
assumed that was the end of the message.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:00:26 -0600

in light of the recent discussions, I would not be opposed to removing the
penalty section from the Intern proposal if its inclusion will keep it from
passing. I am glad this all came out now, rather than later. I am glad to
establish the decorum for the game now. I'm not opposed to oppinions on
unpassed proposals. I was just assuming that Doc had the only say.

BTW: I'm not perfectly clear on the update timeframe... Doc, will proposal
updates only be performed during Office Hours, or how often are you
planning updates? Should we clarify in the rules a general idea? Just
curious because I don't want to bombard Doc with proposals when he isn't
going to process them for a while.

NOT GAME RELATED, reader beware:
Also, an aside. I'm considering hosting a SPEED ROUND during the Holidays
called Holiday Nomic that will be a guaranteed daily update with two when
possible. The idea is to establish a theme game that ends on January 4th no
matter what. The winning goal is undefined to start but it must be decisive
(or absolutely undecisive) on the end date. I was thinking of either an
imperial game or a minimalist game where the first 5 votes decides if a
rule passes. This will allow the game to continue in between updates of the
master ruleset... with all proposals that pass becoming part of the
official ruleset regardless of its listing. If players are concerned about
playing "on Christmas day" because of too many obligations, they can thusly
make a rule. If I have at least 5 players interested, I'll start it in
within a week. If I choose to use the voting method, I will be one player,
otherwise, I will officiate. I think there are enough bored people out
there during the holidays to have a smashing game, even if most of the
players don't play certain days due to vacation. The speed will be
determined by the players. Comments? Please do not send directly to this
list. Email: [email-masked] directly. I'll make a mailing list if
there are enough people to discuss and start but will in the mean time
distribute discussion privately to all interested parties.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 13:19:57 -0500

Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]> writes:

> planning updates? 

When I find the time!

> Should we clarify in the rules a general idea? Just

Don't hold back on my account; they'll keep till I get to them. If
it's because you don't like a delay... well, sorry; things are REALLY
busy for me these days -- I'll try not to let things slide a long
time, but don't count on action within hours or even a couple days.

> called Holiday Nomic 

Sounds like fun; I don't think I should try participating, but I might
want to spectate...

-- 
- Doc

---

From: Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:24:55 -0600

Oh, I wasn't complaining... just curious. If you are updating every few
days or so, I just didn't want to overload you in the mean time. Not
complaining. Thanks for hosting!

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 13:48:41 -0500

> A player may exchange one red pill and one blue pill for one yellow pill.

ACCEPTED. One green pill.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 13:50:07 -0500

> reduce the Nurse's body and soul points by 25 points each.

ACCEPTED. I share Kevan's concern about the downside of Nursing and
will welcome proposal addressing that. 1 yellow pill.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 13:50:57 -0500

> No problem. You may want to modify my last proposal to reflect that change.

I'll do that.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 13:55:04 -0500

> "Proclomation" in the gamestate and ruleset be renamed "Medical Board

REJECTED. As with the "Players->Patients" proposal, I don't want to
embed the theme that deeply. Hmm. I will expound on this more in a
separate communication.

> [[if Cash is ever accepted, then we can then amend this rule to have

REJECTED, on the grounds that it illegalizes the comment process by
non-Interns. 

> follow a similar format at the Doc's discretion.

REJECTED solely because I see no reason to burden people with the
requirement on the first line of the body. Formatting the subject
line is a good idea, but should be sufficient.

-- 
- Doc

---

From: Ottis Airhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:07:22 -0600

I ammend my previous proposal:

Each proposal must have in its Subject line the text: "Proposal:" followed
by a label for the proposal or it shall be ignored.

Each Point of Order must have in its Subject line the text: "Point of
Order:" followed by a label of the Proposal or Rule in reference or it
shall be ignored. Each Proclamation shall follow a similar format at the
Doc's discretion.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 14:17:22 -0500

Note that I changed "Proclamation of Administration" to "Nurse's
Report" to avoid overloading the term "Proclamation".

-- 
- Doc

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 2000 14:18:24 -0500

-- 
- Doc