Subject: Nomic: alright, I'm serious this time

From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:50:03 -0500

I just finished switching the proposal parser to use MySQL because I 
couldn't figure out the bug I had before. AFAIK, it *works* now! So do 
your worst, since I think it can handle it. Thus far, few of you have 
given it a shot (much thanks to those who have, BTW). I don't want this 
to break while we're playing, so once more, I request everyone's 
assistance in testing it. If everything goes well, this should be the 
last test run I announce.

Again, the URL for instructions: http://www.nomic.net/~test/instructions
.html.
-- 
J. Uckelman
[email-masked]
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~uckelman/

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From: Benjamin Bradley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:57:15 -0500 (CDT)

I just went to check on the proposal tester's info and it appears that one
Josh Kortbein has decided to propose TRN's manpages. This is about 36 megs
long and I don't want to have to download it all to see if the proposals I
send in passed through.

Joel- how about a size limit on proposals? say ~3k?

- You have received mail from Benjamin Bradley. C'est ne pas un e-mail.
- http://lostpoet.tripod.com/
- whee life what a rush

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From: one million billionth of a millisecond on a sunday morning <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:07:08 CDT

>long and I don't want to have to download it all to see if the proposals I

I have already contacted Joel re this matter.

Incidentally, one is not limited to how many proposals one can make,
and in what period of time. I'm not sure how many I made (I killed
the program I wrote - and I'm not going to wait to load the page).

I was also able to revise and withdraw other people's proposals.
But, strangely, not withdraw my own trn-related proposals.

Computers are neat.

Josh

-- 
josh blog: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kortbein/blog/
      tdr: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kortbein/tdr/

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From: one million billionth of a millisecond on a sunday morning <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:09:49 CDT

>long and I don't want to have to download it all to see if the proposals I

Perhaps some database facility for users would also be helpful - like
say I send a message to the robot

	retrieve proposals from me

and I get all the proposals I've made (with various options for activity,
etc.). Or, better still,

	retrieve proposal headers from me

to avoid having to download, oh, say, 36 megs of manpages.

Also, something to see simply stats, etc.: proposal headers, numbers
available, etc.

Josh

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From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:19:11 -0500

>Joel- how about a size limit on proposals? say ~3k?

As the draft rules stand, there is no length limit, nor did we have one 
in Berserker. What does everyone think of having one? Set at what 
length?

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From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:22:21 -0500

>Also, something to see simply stats, etc.: proposal headers, numbers

Good suggestions all. These will go on the TODO list, though, until I 
get the essential parts working.

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From: one million billionth of a millisecond on a sunday morning <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:29:09 CDT

>in Berserker. What does everyone think of having one? Set at what 

We didn't have one in Berserker because nothing was done automatically.
Automation presents the posibility for... SABOTAGE

	<da da da dadaadadadadada...>

As such I think any small limit is reasonable. Maybe figure out what the
longest proposal we've made yet is, when pick something on that order.

Frequency/number of requests matters just as much, I think.

Josh
"- Doctor, it hurts when I move my arm like this. What should I do?
 - Don't do that!"

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From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:05:45 -0400 (EDT)

Which is why the automated engine should not be written into the rules.
The game should still be run in such a way that the proposals and rule
changes can be handled by a human if the engine breaks.
DW

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From: one million billionth of a millisecond on a sunday morning <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:01:21 CDT

>changes can be handled by a human if the engine breaks.

I believe this was Mr. Uckelman's original intention.

Josh

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From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 17:08:07 -0400 (EDT)

> I believe this was Mr. Uckelman's original intention.

In that case we needn't worry about sabotage.  Such electronic sabotage
would be equivalent to physically tampering with the rules document,
something which I think is made illegal by the rules themselves.

DW

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From: one million billionth of a millisecond on a sunday morning <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:48:31 CDT

>something which I think is made illegal by the rules themselves.

Depends what kind of "sabotage" it is. Recall the debacle on the
MUD-based nomic that allowed people to claim CFJs in order to judge
and earn points. That broke when someone made so many CFJs that the
MUD broke; the intention was to allow someone to score lots of points
quickly. Both were permitted by the rules (and the breaking part wasn't
prohibited - it was sort of unforseen). What are you thinking of?

Josh

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From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 17:03:29 -0500

>something which I think is made illegal by the rules themselves.

True, except that disrupting the recordkeeping apparatus, even if it's 
not part of the rules, could potentially cause a lot of confusion. 
Which I why I'd like this to be sabatoge-resistant.

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From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 18:25:31 -0400 (EDT)

> prohibited - it was sort of unforseen). What are you thinking of?

I don't know much about Nomic World; it was before my nomic-playing days.
I was, however, part of a more recent attempt at a MUD-based Nomic which
eventually ground to a halt because we could not keep up with the changes
to the rules.

I don't know how the engine will break but in the intrest of preserving
the game it should be built with the assumption that it will break,
sometime.  It should do nothing that could not easily be done by a human;
we should keep a day-old and a week-old backup of the game state where
they cannot easily be tampered with.  The administrator should have to
specify each message to be processed. This will greatly reduce the
possibility that someone either inside or outside the game can use it to
do something to Joel's computer and our ruleset.

DW