Subject: ackanomic Digest V4 #271
From: [email-masked]
To: ackanomic digest users <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:00:02 -0400 (EDT)

ackanomic Digest	Wednesday, October 06 1999	Volume: 04  Issue: 271

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From: Ape Idiom Reporter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Acka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 02:06:58 -0400 (EDT)

>
>I have not decided when or if I will return, I'm leaning toward not
>because in the acka I joined almost 2 years ago, that CRD would never have
>been created, nor would people have felt the need to overreact to a thread
>split.
>

I don't call it overreaction when 4 or 5 prominent Ackans desert the game
over that threadsplit.  The salvation of the Acka that we believe in
requires desperate measures.

>I would have happily
>abided by a decision arrived at VALIDLY under either of the two rulesets
>(and would have hoped that they would agree on their beliefs).  The fact
>that this didn't occur saddens me.

Still has plenty of time to.  But a bunch of people IMMEDIATELY went over
to the other side and refused to acknowledge the possibility of their side
being only a thread, an acknowledgement that we fat-ackans have made in
abundance.

>what really happened was the
>nomic split in three.  In one side is 'acka-lite', on the other is
>'fat-acka' and in the MIDDLE there is 'real-acka' which has to use the
>decision proceedure AT THE TIME OF P4371 to determine which of the other
>branches it REALLY is.

GREAT!  I wish it would hurry up about it!

>However, a large number (or at least a signifigant number) of people
>seemed to assert that both nomics existed regardless of the outcome of the
>CFJ.  AIR attempted to make that fact instead of supposition with his
>ex-nihilo creation of a game-state for fat-acka.   That was the action I
>objected to, and showed my objection in the only way available to me, by
>my refusal to play along with what I considered his delusion.

Delusion?  The creation of the game-state was not a delusion on my part- it
was rather a creation so that the other side's deluded could continue to
play fat-acka.  With people like Malenkai OPENLY STATING, regardless of CFJ
results, that they were observers and not players in fat-acka, it seemed
eminently necessary to let these misguided souls back in without having to
compromise their beliefs.  I want all the people who abandoned fat-acka
back, regardless of their belief in P4371's success or failure.  I love
acka.  I don't want it to die over this.

I too would like any documentation on listar you might be willing to provide.

------------------------------

From: Henry Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Acka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 02:13:11 -0400 (EDT)

>I don't call it overreaction when 4 or 5 prominent Ackans desert the game
>over that threadsplit.  The salvation of the Acka that we believe in
>requires desperate measures.

	4 or 5 prominent Ackans leave, ergo you kick out a sixth?

>Still has plenty of time to.  But a bunch of people IMMEDIATELY went over
>to the other side and refused to acknowledge the possibility of their side
>being only a thread, an acknowledgement that we fat-ackans have made in
>abundance.

	I have said this several times, as have other New Ackans.

>Delusion?  The creation of the game-state was not a delusion on my part- it
>was rather a creation so that the other side's deluded could continue to
>play fat-acka.  With people like Malenkai OPENLY STATING, regardless of CFJ
>results, that they were observers and not players in fat-acka, it seemed
>eminently necessary to let these misguided souls back in without having to
>compromise their beliefs.  I want all the people who abandoned fat-acka
>back, regardless of their belief in P4371's success or failure.  I love
>acka.  I don't want it to die over this.

	Although I can't speak for other players, my decision to 
leave Ackanomic had nothing to do with the fact that I don't think it 
exists, and I wouldn't come back no matter how decisively it were 
shown to be the correct thread.  I left for New Acka because I found 
it more interesting.

------------------------------

From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Acka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 02:27:13 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Ape Idiom Reporter wrote:
> I don't call it overreaction when 4 or 5 prominent Ackans desert the game
> over that threadsplit.  The salvation of the Acka that we believe in
> requires desperate measures.

You don't, I do.   End of discussion and of debate.   What you did had no
reason nor necessity for being done from my point of view.

> Still has plenty of time to.  But a bunch of people IMMEDIATELY went over
> to the other side and refused to acknowledge the possibility of their side
> being only a thread, an acknowledgement that we fat-ackans have made in
> abundance.

No, none of them ever refused to acknowledge (to my knowledge) their side
only being a thread.   They decided that they didn't care if the kernel
game state existed ex-nihilo or was the real acka.   I'm sure some of them
(like I) am interested in the outcome of that discussion.

> Delusion?  The creation of the game-state was not a delusion on my
> part- it was rather a creation so that the other side's deluded could
> continue to play fat-acka.  With people like Malenkai OPENLY STATING,
> regardless of CFJ results, that they were observers and not players in
> fat-acka, it seemed eminently necessary to let these misguided souls
> back in without having to compromise their beliefs.  I want all the

You created a game state that blatantly disregarded Malenkai's stated
wish/belief that he was an observer in Fat-Acka.   I considered that to be
heavy handed, unneeded, irresponsible, and down right contemptible.  That
you further compounded your arrogance by removing me from the game DESPITE
my statement that I was still a player of the thread known as fat-acka was
despicable.

> I too would like any documentation on listar you might be willing to
> provide.

Well a good place to start would be http://www.listar.org/
followed by sending the following commands to [email-masked]

commands
flags
help

--JT

-- 
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

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From: Eric Plumb <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Sorry, Scorekeeper
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 02:46:08 -0400 (EDT)

On 19 September 1999 at midnight:
two-star found the Magic Potato.
ThinMan found the Great Tuba.

On 26 September 1999 at midnight:
Clamshell Lawyer found the Magic Potato.
two-star found the Great Tuba.

On 3 October 1999, also at midnight:
/dev/joe found the Magic Potato.
Clamshell Lawyer found the Great Tuba.

Interestingly enough, Phoebe's matchbox, after being pointedly ignored by
IdiotBoy for a couple weeks, appeared in /dev/joe's house around the same
time as did the Spud.

Scorekeeper/Financier: If I missed any kind of transference in the entity
log, please let me know. :-)

-Hubert

If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from? 

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Subject: Acka: *ping*
From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:42:05 -0400 (EDT)

Today is Wednesday, the 06th day of October, and 
the Machine That Goes *ping* Has Gone *ping* today.
Since I have been scholar, the Machine has gone *ping* 14 times.

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Acka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 10:51:13 -0400 (EDT)

else..if wrote:

>	Although I can't speak for other players, my decision to 
>leave Ackanomic had nothing to do with the fact that I don't think it 
>exists, and I wouldn't come back no matter how decisively it were 
>shown to be the correct thread.  I left for New Acka because I found 
>it more interesting.

My decision to leave fat-Acka for thin-Acka was _despite_ my belief, at the
time, that fat-Acka was the true Ackanomic thread.  I so stated more than
once.  I also, more than once, opined that both Ackas exist insomuchas there
are players determined to continue to play each.  Some of the players in
each are determined to not play the other, even if it is the true thread.
Thus the question of which was created ex nihilo is largely academic.
This is more than a thread split, and it is unlikely that the two nomics
can ever be rejoined.

Indeed, as I consider this it becomes more and more clear that this has
become almost wholly a metagame situation.  We are all playing the same game
only so long as we can agree about the game state.  In ackanomic (both fat
and thin) we have procedures for resolving disagreements about the game
state so that we can continue to play the same game.  In this case those
procedures have failed, been abandoned, or both.  No game action can resolve
this metagame problem.

Fat-Acka is still making up its mind, via CFJ 730, about what really
happened.  If the verdict supports fat-Acka as the correct thread then no
doubt it will continue to exist as long as it has the energy to do so.  If
CFJ 730 ends up supporting thin-Acka as the correct thread then, even
ignoring the logical difficulties, it is unclear what will happen to
fat-Acka.

Fat-Acka's CFJ 730 has no relevance in thin-Acka in any case, for it doesn't
exist there.  Thin-Acka's mechanism for resolving discrepancies has not been
invoked on this matter, and as far as thin-Acka is concerned, it is the true
thread descended from pre-P4371 Acka.  Indeed, we again have a metagame
problem: if each flavor of Acka insists that it is the true original thread
then there is no way to globally resolve the discrepancy.  Individual players
must then choose which they believe (to the extent that it matters) and,
seperately, which game to play (or whether to play both or neither).

For what it's worth, I think that fat-Acka impeaching Malenkai was premature
and that recreating fat-Acka ex nihilo was pointless.  With regard to
Malenkai, he was and is on vacation in fat-Acka, and therefore did
not inhibit fat-Acka's activities.  Clearly (to me) he is awaiting the final
outcome of CFJ 730 to decide how or whether to continue play.  As for the
fat-Acka recreation, even if thin-Acka is the true thread then fat-Acka can
and will continue if sufficient players wish to do so.  Recreating it does
not change anything.  Again, this is a metagame-level decision and action.

ThinMan
"Thin-Acka."  Now why do I find that name appealing?  :-)

------------------------------

From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Facka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:33:41 -0400 (EDT)

ThinMan wrote:

> For what it's worth, I think that fat-Acka impeaching Malenkai was premature
> and that recreating fat-Acka ex nihilo was pointless.  With regard to
> Malenkai, he was and is on vacation in fat-Acka, and therefore did
> not inhibit fat-Acka's activities.  Clearly (to me) he is awaiting the final
> outcome of CFJ 730 to decide how or whether to continue play.

Well, I can be the first speaker to be impeached without being elected, or
hold the distinction of being both elected and impeached while on vacation, 
depending on which game you think you are in :-)

It does seem a bit heavy-handed to be impeached while on vacation simply
for making (what I thought) where logically contstructed _arguments_,
which, apparently to some, where "subversive".  I guess I will remain at
a loss as to how anything can be "subversive" to a platonic game state, and
be at a loss as to how nomic is fun without logical arguments.

George
Shrubbbbbbbbery
not a Fuzzy Duck

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From: Ape Idiom Reporter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Facka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:51:51 -0400 (EDT)

Mal said:

>It does seem a bit heavy-handed to be impeached while on vacation simply
>for making (what I thought) were logically contstructed _arguments_,
>which, apparently to some, were "subversive".  I guess I will remain at
>a loss as to how anything can be "subversive" to a platonic game state, and
>be at a loss as to how nomic is fun without logical arguments.

Mal said:

>So, I believe I am a Shubbery
>while many others may believe I am on vacation (and Speaker elect) in the
>new game.  I think this is ok, I'll play w.r.t. to my view of the game
>state of this game, and continue to be a Shubbery, and others can play 
>to theirs (and impeach me for not doing anything, I guess)

Which is just what I did -- just on a quicker timetable than you expected,
I guess.

------------------------------

From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Facka: results of the CRD hearing
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:17:27 -0400 (EDT)

> Which is just what I did -- just on a quicker timetable than you expected,
> I guess.

Well, you didn't do it, the players of this nomic did.  In any case, it
indeed was a quicker timetable than I think anyone expected, because,
as ThinMan aptly pointed out, I said:

> and I think I'll stay on vacation
> in the threads where vacations matter until this sorts itself out

Unless, of course, you construe that vacations do not matter in the 
ex nihilo game :-)

George

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Subject: Acka: What Phoebe Says
From: Joseph DeVincentis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 22:26:55 -0400 (EDT)

As if the strange strobing effect which makes it appear that I'm in
Vulcan Headquarters half the time and on a vast, featureless plane
the rest of the time, which has been going on for the last week and
a half or so, wasn't bad enough, the last few days there has been a
brightly-colored matchbox strobing in and out in sync with Vulcan HQ.
I thought I heard something coming from it, but the sound strobed in
and out with the matchbox, so I couldn't really make much of it.
But last night the voice came to me clearly in my dreams.

Phoebe appeared before me, and she was still flickering, but instead
of flickering away half the time, instead she was flickering from
wearing the fatigues I last saw her in to some sort of weird battle
armor.  She spoke to me of the weird things she experienced during
her two-week slumber at IdiotBoy's place, or at least, that's where
she was when it started.

Apparently, when I started seeing the weird flickering effect, something
similar started for her, but in the other part of the flickering,
she was on some horrible-looking boat on a river of lava, and on the
far side, everything was engulfed in flames.

She said more, but started becoming unintelligible in the battle-armor
phase of her flickering, and eventually this made the whole thing
unintelligible.

When I awoke, she was gone.

/dev/joe

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End of ackanomic Digest V4 #271
*******************************