Subject: ackanomic Digest V4 #211
From: [email-masked]
To: ackanomic digest users <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 00:00:01 -0400 (EDT)

ackanomic Digest	Sunday, August 08 1999	Volume: 04  Issue: 211

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: a word
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:55:48 -0400 (EDT)

Just in case people have been distracted by recent events, I would like to
remind everyone that there is a presidential election going on. I demand
that a ridiculous amount of votes be cast for a candidate other than me,
rather than the mere smattering that have already been cast for the non-me
nominees.

Come on, make me look pathetic. It's been a while.

King Felix
(who will probably not even vote for eirself)

------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: magic potato (Calvin N Hobbes)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:55:48 -0400 (EDT)

On Sunday 8th August (or possibly Monday 9th, who can tell?), at 1200 (AT),
Calvin N Hobbes will receive the magic potato and Niccolo Flychuck will
receive the Great Tuba of Ackanomic.

King Felix
(Officer in Charge of Discordant Things)

------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: phoebe (404 Not Found)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:56:00 -0400 (EDT)

404 Not Found has found Phoebe's matchbox.

King Felix
(whose random determinations are just a joke)

------------------------------

From: [email-masked] (Dice server)
Subject: Acka: Ackanomicon Determination
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:56:12 -0400 (EDT)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dice rolls requested by: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Rolls also sent to:
    [email-masked]

# Player: Alfvaen
# Ackanomicon Determination
# based on the following (using a 54 sided die)
#  1 - 16 Arcane Trivia
# 17 - 21 Vile Prophecies
# 22 - 27 Inner Workings
# 28 - 33 Arcane Lore
# 34 - 36 Terrorizing Pages
# 37 - 38 Mutation
# 39 - 40 Dark Domain
# 41 - 42 Long Lost Treasure
# 43 - 43 Forbidden Fruit
# 44 - 47 Not so Forbidden Fruit
# 48 - 48 Ancient One
# 49 - 54 Strange Object

No. of sides on every die:     54
No. of dice for every roll:     1
No. of dice rolls requested:    1
No. of rolls per line:          1

     47

Information on the dice server:
   DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
   Replies to [email-masked] vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.

   For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
   subject "help" to [email-masked], or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/

   The dice server is provided by:

      Shadow Island Games
      http://www.pbm.com/

=================================================
             ** NewHoo Web Directory **
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Original message follows:
> From [email-masked]  Sun Aug  8 09:45:40 1999
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
>       id JAA25787 for <[email-masked]>; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 09:45:40 -0700
> Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk(195.92.193.18) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
>       id sma025778; Sun Aug  8 09:45:32 1999
> Received: from modem-22.adderall.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.48.150] helo=default)
>       by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2)
>       id 11DVIU-00064H-00
>       for [email-masked]; Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:55:42 +0100
> Message-ID: <013401bee1b6$4c0d7380$9630883e@default>
> From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Acka: Ackanomicon Determination
> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:21:13 +0100
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
> 
> #P [email-masked]
> #S 54
> #D 1
> #R 1
> #L 1
> #T Acka: Ackanomicon Determination
> #C Player: Alfvaen
> #C Ackanomicon Determination
> #C based on the following (using a 54 sided die)
> #C
> #C  1 - 16 Arcane Trivia
> #C 17 - 21 Vile Prophecies
> #C 22 - 27 Inner Workings
> #C 28 - 33 Arcane Lore
> #C 34 - 36 Terrorizing Pages
> #C 37 - 38 Mutation
> #C 39 - 40 Dark Domain
> #C 41 - 42 Long Lost Treasure
> #C 43 - 43 Forbidden Fruit
> #C 44 - 47 Not so Forbidden Fruit
> #C 48 - 48 Ancient One
> #C 49 - 54 Strange Object
> 
> 

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Acka: a word
From: Joseph DeVincentis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:22:39 -0400 (EDT)

Gavin Logan wrote:
> 
> Just in case people have been distracted by recent events, I would like to
> remind everyone that there is a presidential election going on. I demand
> that a ridiculous amount of votes be cast for a candidate other than me,
> rather than the mere smattering that have already been cast for the non-me
> nominees.
> 
> Come on, make me look pathetic. It's been a while.

Well, it's probably because at least some major net links to the UK have
been dead since yesterday morning (US morning).  My mail server can't reach
you at all, but in an effort to try to get mail to you somehow, I vote
for King Felix for president, publicly.

/dev/joe

------------------------------

From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: a word
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:34:18 -0400 (EDT)

On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Joseph DeVincentis wrote:

> Gavin Logan wrote:
> > 
> > Just in case people have been distracted by recent events, I would like to
> > remind everyone that there is a presidential election going on. I demand
> > that a ridiculous amount of votes be cast for a candidate other than me,
> > rather than the mere smattering that have already been cast for the non-me
> > nominees.
> > 
> > Come on, make me look pathetic. It's been a while.
> 
> Well, it's probably because at least some major net links to the UK have
> been dead since yesterday morning (US morning).  My mail server can't reach
> you at all, but in an effort to try to get mail to you somehow, I vote
> for King Felix for president, publicly.
> 
> /dev/joe
> 

Yeah. I vote for King Felix as well. :)

Vynd

------------------------------

From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: a word
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 16:00:53 -0400 (EDT)

>Yeah. I vote for King Felix as well. :)
>
I don't, but only because I already have.

Felix for President! Why settle for the lesser evil!

BLMP.
Go Pods!

------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: a word
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 16:04:10 -0400 (EDT)

Normally quite sane /dev/joe wrote:
>I vote
>for King Felix for president, publicly.
>

Then, mere minutes later, Vynd wrote:
>Yeah. I vote for King Felix as well. :)

No you fools! We're doomed!!!

King Felix
(scaremonger)

------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: a word
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 16:09:01 -0400 (EDT)

>>Yeah. I vote for King Felix as well. :)
>>
>I don't, but only because I already have.
>
>Felix for President! Why settle for the lesser evil!
>
>BLMP.
>Go Pods!

I'm not going to change my name again BLMP. No you can't make me.
Must...resist...

King Felix
(less name changes than Hubert [tm])

------------------------------

From: Henry Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: elections (President)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 18:19:46 -0400 (EDT)

>As someone who pays little attention to the major issues and personalities
>of the day, I would appreciate it if the candidates would put forward
>their positions on the Voting Gnomeand his buddy, anti-voting, and the
>lack of roundness of the Earth. This should greatly assist me in
>determining how to cast my ballot.

	I think we are in a perfect position to restore the Voting Gnome to
his former glory.  If we tie it to mannna instead of points, it would be
easy and fun.

	I am pro-anti-voting, a slight shift from my earlier position of
being anti-anti-anti-voting (I think that's what I was).  I want it back,
'cause it was fun!  Besides, if we had it back some of my proposals might
pass.

	I continue to believe that the earth should be a hexatetraflexagon,
and anyone who believes otherwise is a heretic.

--
-Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

From: Rachel L Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: a word
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:27:06 -0400 (EDT)

Gavin Logan wrote:

> I'm not going to change my name again BLMP. No you can't make me.
> Must...resist...
> 
> King Felix
> (less name changes than Hubert [tm])

Hubert? He's but a mere amateur currently being on only his tenth name.
I'm on thirteen now. And as for you, you're on a rather meagre seven.
Even EA!P has more than you with eight. Please, give in to the dark
side. Change your name.

Oh, and while I'm at it I pay the SHF tomake myself a student in
harfology.

Pregnant Hippo

-- 
Rachel "I am not a walrus" Walmsley. mailto:[email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html ICQ: 2925739
"Among wizards?" said Ridcully. "Mister Stibbons, unusual behaviour is
perfectly ordinary for wizards." - Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: elections (President)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 20:07:48 -0400 (EDT)

I registered as an Agoran player in an attempt to thwart their nonexistent
scam.  I am now in gaol.  I have deregistered as an Agoran.  My vote for
the presidency was probably not valid, although IIRC my Agenda submissions
and Viruses move were legal.

I would appreciate it if our new president, whoever e may be, would Pardon
me so that I can get out of gaol.

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito! B(Scam)
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: elections (President)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 20:25:57 -0400 (EDT)

On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
> I registered as an Agoran player in an attempt to thwart their nonexistent
> scam.  I am now in gaol.  I have deregistered as an Agoran.  My vote for
> the presidency was probably not valid, although IIRC my Agenda submissions
> and Viruses move were legal.

Your agenda submission was indeed recieved by me 10 minutes before your
postmarked joining in Agora (yes, I went and checked their mailing lists
:)  I cannot however speak for the virus move.

--JT

-- 
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: a sad little gaol song
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 21:42:30 -0400 (EDT)

As I sit in my corner of the little gaol cell that is now my home, watching
Studge out of the corner of my eye to make sure he doesn't try to stab me
to death while I'm sleeping, I look up to the slanting sunlight slowly
climbing the eastern wall of the gaol as the sun sets.  

I say to myself: "Self: how can the sun be setting?  The sun is not
rule-defined, and Acka is flat!"

I say to my Imaginary French Friend: "Ah, ma cherie, je suis tres triste,
ici dans la Gaol.  Si Dieu du ciel me donne un autre chance, je vais
changer ma vie.  La Gaol, ce n'est pas un bon location pour un patriot
comme moi.  Ah bon, ce que sera, sera, oui?"

I say to Studge: "Stay away from my ragged scraps of clothing and splintery
dinner tray.  You have your own"

And as the light begins to fade to purple, pink, and red, I retrieve a
battered harmonica from my pocket and begin to softly play.  As the music
gets me, and I really start to feel it, I tap my foot and begin to sing,
eventually abandoning the harmonica altogether.  I sing:

Oh, Ackanomic, my one and only home
How I've tried, how I've tried, to stay free.
You've heard me callin' out to Phoebe, to the monkey and the gnome,
Heard me cryin' 'til my eyes no longer see (no longer see):
*  I have prayed me up to banna,
*  I have made and spent my mannna:
Oh, Acka won'tcha listen to me...

'Cause I sing a sing a -- sad song
*  An' I sing a sing a -- sad song
I'm singin' a song, a song 'bout you and me...
'Cause I sing a sing a -- day long
*  An' I sing a sing a -- day long
I'm singin' my song, tell me how it's gonna be...

Now, Ackanomic, I find myself in gaol
How I cry, how I cry, all the day.
You hear me sing when my props pass and hear me weep when they do fail,
Hear me cryin out for mercy as I say (as I say):
*  I have prayed me up to banna,
*  I have made and spent my mannna
Now, Acka don'tcha put me away...

'Cause I sing a sing a -- mad song
*  An' I sing a sing a -- mad song
I'm singin' a song, a song 'bout me and you...
'Cause I sing a sing a -- week long
*  An' I sing a sing a -- week long
I'm singin' my song, tell me what you're gonna do...

Hey, Ackanomic, I languish and I rot
How I'll try, how I'll try, to endure.
You'll hear me singin' my sad gaol songs, hear me sing with all I got,
Hear me prayin' up for justice good and pure (good and pure):
*  I have prayed me up to banna,
*  I have made and spent my mannna
Hey, Acka don'tcha keep me secure...

'Cause I sing a sing a -- bad song
*  An' I sing a sing a -- bad song
I'm singin' a song, a song 'bout hate and fear...
'Cause I sing a sing a -- year long
*  An' I sing a sing a -- year long
I'm singin' my song, tell me why you put me here...

My, Ackanomic, now open up that gate
How I'll smile, how I'll smile, don't you know.
You'll hear me singin' out my life and love and also death and hate,
Hear me shout these words as I rock to and fro (to and fro):
*  I have prayed me up to banna,
*  I have made and spent my mannna
My, Acka can'tcha just let me go,
*        Just let me go,
My, Acka can'tcha just let me go....

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito! B(Scam)
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder
  War Criminal * Political Prisoner * Marxist Revolutionary

------------------------------

From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: CFJ 725 (404 Not Found)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:41:43 -0400 (EDT)

Call for Judgement 725 - August 8, 1999
Subject: Too tired to worry about subjects
Initiator: Emperor AiPedrito!
Judge: 404 Not Found
Judgement:

Statement:
As of the time of submission of this CFJ, all current players of Ackanomic
with the possible exceptions of Studge and and were in gaol.

Reasoning:
If P4258 failed, then rule 17-1-2 exists.  We are all players
of Agora, hence we are all placed in gaol.  This is dependent on CFJs 723
and 724
(both must be FALSE for this reasoning to hold.)

--
-Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: CFJ 726 (Eggplant Tempura)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:41:45 -0400 (EDT)

Call for Judgement 726 - August 8, 1999
Subject: Too tired to worry about subjects
Initiator: Emperor AiPedrito!
Judge: Eggplant Tempura
Judgement:

Statement:
Proposal 4294 is Protected

Reasoning:
If the CFJ 725 is TRUE, then I see no reason to think that A German Dog is
correct in his reasoning that he can deny the wartime crisis declaration
from gaol.

--
-Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

From: Henry Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 724 (Pregnant Hippo, A German Dog)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:41:59 -0400 (EDT)

Call for Judgement 723 - August 2, 1999
Subject: Breakfast
Initiator: K2
Judge: IdiotBoy
Judgement: FALSE
Appellant: Slakko
Cortex: Pregnant Hippo, A German Dog
Judgement:

Statement:
Between 22-Jun-99 04:58:14 and 30-Jun-99 14:39:06 Studge did not alter the
rules or the game state according to Rule 1 (as it read during that period).

Reasoning:
I didn't submit this until now cause I wasn't sure we were in a thread
where it was relevant.

This CFJ can only be TRUE in the thread that CFJ 722 is TRUE. Assuming
that to be the case:

* On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:57:32 P4207 was submitted.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:57:31 P4207's voting period ended.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:58:14 Invalid voting results for P4207 were
>       released.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:00:27 Studge announced a change to the rule set
>       attempting to create a rule defined entity "The Imperium".

* According to Rule 2 (Proposals):
     As soon as possible after a proposal's prescribed voting period
     ends, the votes on that proposal shall be posted publicly.
     [... conditions for ... ] then it is accepted. Otherwise it is
     rejected.

     If a proposal is accepted, one of two things happen. If the
     proposal consisted of a list of one-time effects, such as changes
     to the rules, then those effects shall be applied, one at a time,
     in the order in which they appear in the proposal. (Ambiguous,
     retroactive, and/or meaningless effects are ignored.)

For a proposal to have its effect applied it must be accepted. To be
accepted the votes on it must be released publicly - at the time of
Studge's attempted modification this had not occurred - some invalid
results had been ruleset and some players other than the promotor had
attempted to convince us they new the results, but the correct official
results had not been released.

* According to Rule 2-2 (Scoring When A Proposal's Voting Results are
Reported):

     I. Timing of these score changes

     All the following scoring changes are applied at the time the
     Proposal's tabulated voting results are officially reported,
     unless the new rule or effect calls for an instantaneous
     change to 1 or more players' score, in which case the score
     changes detailed in this rule are applied an infinitesimal
     amount of time after those effects are applied.

This supports the timeline - Results released then proposal has effect.

* Rule 2-1-2 (Mannna from Heaven):

     When A Proposal's Voting Results are Reported, but prior to any
     effects generated by it (including any scoring changes)

Another rule on the same theme. If Mannna changes occur after the
official results but before the proposals effect, the effects must occur
after the official results too.

Net effect is that between 22 Jun 1999 05:00:27 and 22 Jun 1999 19:41:07
when the official voting results were released was that rule one did not
empower Studge to amend the rules.

* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:08:56 JT issued an "Imperial Dictate" (ID).
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:12:39 Studge said "I concur to both dictates."
>       (refering to JT's "Imperial Dictate").

JT issues an "Imperial Dictate" which purports to modify the game state,
apparently Studge concurs with this action... is that the same as Studge
performing the action emself? If I said: The Angry Hammer transfers A$
10 from K 2 to JT and JT concurred with this what would happen?

* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:13:56 JT censored an ID and made another.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:41:07 /dev/joe released the correct and
>       official voting results.
* On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 02:20:12 Studge said "I concur." in reference to
>       JT's ID.
* On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:19:27 JT issued an ID.
* On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:31:51 Studge said :
>       "If it wasn't, I make the same diktate and concur to that." in
>reference
>       to an earlier ID by JT on research.

Is issuing and concurring to a "diktate" the same as making a public
action?

I issue the following Imperial Dicate: K 2 transfers A$ to Studge.
I concur with this.

Now What?

* On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:39:06 P4224 Passed.

Hopefully it will be possible to apply the judge's reasoning on this CFJ
to determine if the last (or possibly earlier) diktate was successful in
the event this CFJ is not TRUE.

Judge's Reasoning:

The Initiator's reasoning has two main points.  Point, the first:  That
the attempted changes of rules and game state failed due to the timing of
the release of the proper results and the attempted actions.  Point, the
second:  The attempted actions were not actions at all.

On the first point:

This is the stickiest of issues.  There are reasonable persons on both
sides of this issue.  The Rules themselves are unclear on how to proceed
in this case.

The confusion here results from the automation which has made the game
work so well.  The Ackabot does an admirable job of collecting, tabulating
and reporting results.  But there are certain things which can and should
require human intervention.  The Tabulator has seen fit to give over to
the Ackabot the right to release voting results.

Since the voting results were released 22 Jun 1999 04:58:14, we are
rule-bound to accept that as the time when the acceptance or rejection
took place.

The fact that the Ackabot had an incorrect understanding of the game state
and denied to certain players their right to vote does not change the
actual game state.  Furthermore, the fact that Ackabot incorrectly
reported the results does not change the actual gamestate.  The voting
results were released 22 Jun 1999 04:58:14, so any and all effects which
follow from that must begin at that time.

At 22 Jun 1999 19:41:07, /dev/joe released corrected results.  This action
does not change the time at which the results were reported.  It merely
properly reports the game state.  The results were still released 22 Jun
1999 04:58:14.

On the second point:

There is considerable game custom to support the notion that when a group
of players wish to perform some public action, the following happen:

One of the players suggests an action.
Others who agree to be involved in the action concur with said action.
If there are a sufficient number of players concurring the action occuurs.

The fact that the players involved chose some irrelevant name for their
list of game actions does not make this chain of events less effective.

The game actions were posted to a public forum, implying game actions.
They were concurred to by a sufficient number of appropriate players.
They occured.

The Initiator cites the following as an example of why we should not
assume these were effective public actions:

	I issue the following Imperial Dicate: K 2 transfers A$ to Studge.
	I concur with this.

The difference is that there is only a single player involved.   There are
rule defined mechanisms for single players to perform game actions.  We
have only game custom to guide us on actions by groups.  (Ignoring for
the moment rule defined Institutions which have rules governing the means
of public action.)

Appellant's Reasoning:
The statement would be TRUE if CFJ 722 is TRUE.  This was mentioned in the
initial submitter's reasoning.  However, the Judge's reasoning did not
even consider questions raised in CFJ 722, such as whether or not the
actual changing of Voting Characteristics took place (due to the problems
in deciding whether or not a song was played on the ASS if a Token was
used but no cash was available).

If I do not appeal this, and CFJ 722 comes down as TRUE, then we will end
up with two CFJs with contradictory arguments, and that truly will be a
dog's breakfast.

I decline my right to hear this appeal as a Justice.

--
-Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

End of ackanomic Digest V4 #211
*******************************