Subject: ackanomic Digest V4 #207
From: [email-masked]
To: ackanomic digest users <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 00:00:03 -0400 (EDT)

ackanomic Digest	Wednesday, August 04 1999	Volume: 04  Issue: 207

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Summarizer
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:01:25 -0400 (EDT)

>I vote YES on this IP. I only nominated myself for the position as a
>joke...
>
Actually, I resign from the position of summarizer (if I can do so
while there's an IP in progress).

BLMP.

------------------------------

From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Summarizer
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 01:17:40 -0400 (EDT)

> > I author an Impeachment Paper against BLMP as Summarizer.  He has
> >not joined the acka-summarizer list and he has not made any effort to
> >enlist support for creating the summary.  I vote YES on this IP.
> 
> I vote YES on this IP. I only nominated myself for the position as a
> joke...

If this is the case, why in the name of all the gods didn't you just
resign (or why don't you?)

--JT

-- 
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Summarizer
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 01:18:12 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Gavin M. Doig wrote:
> >I vote YES on this IP. I only nominated myself for the position as a
> >joke...
> >
> Actually, I resign from the position of summarizer (if I can do so
> while there's an IP in progress).

Ignore my previous mail then :)   Yes, I think you can resign, however, I
don't believe that it affect the currently underway IP.

--JT

-- 
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: *Ping*
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 02:15:12 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, K 2 wrote:
> Matt Miller wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, K 2 wrote:
> > 
> > > I bid A$27 on a T
> > >
> > 
> > I bid A$30 on an F.
> > 
> 
> Ha! well  bid A$ 33 for that F.

I am unclear whether this was K2 overbidding IB for the letter F.
Regardless of whether IB or K2 actually pays for the letter, the
'F' was the letter with the highest bid, and I recollect no F's in the
truth.

IF AND ONLY IF today **e ***e**** ****** *** ****e* *e**e*e***** *****
******* *e*e**ee* ** ****e, THEN the Machine That Goes *ping* shall go
*ping*.

--JT

-- 
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:28:25 -0400 (EDT)

I return from vacation. I make myself lycanthropic as a penguin. I
change my name to "Pregnant Hippo".

Laa Laa.

-- 
Tom "I am not a walrus" Walmsley. mailto:[email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html ICQ: 2925739
"Among wizards?" said Ridcully. "Mister Stibbons, unusual behaviour is
perfectly ordinary for wizards." - Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent

------------------------------

From: James McGregor <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: An inconvenience
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:59:35 -0400 (EDT)

Who would have thought it, little ol' me still here.
Never mind. Stuff to do, hmmmm...

I create a trinket of value A$7 named "The Stolen
Plates" with the following description:
"The Stolen Plates are white with an orange line round
the rim. In ancient days they were free to be used by
all. However one day a psychopath found the plates and
decided they must be locked away forever, and that
only one person could even look at the plates in the
future. If the plates are every communally owned again
peace and harmony will reverbirate around the world. 
The plates can never be seperated from each other and
collectively constitute only one trinket."

There we go, that's enough for one day.

Pure Haste 
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:19:17 -0400 (EDT)

At 10:28 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I return from vacation. I make myself lycanthropic as a penguin. I
>change my name to "Pregnant Hippo".
>
>Laa Laa.
>

Acked.

>Oh, and I change my name to Eggplant Tempura.  Try and object to THAT.
>
>-Hubert
>

Acked.

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:21:58 -0400 (EDT)

At 11:19 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:28 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>I return from vacation. I make myself lycanthropic as a penguin. I
>>change my name to "Pregnant Hippo".
>>
>>Laa Laa.
>>
>
>Acked.
>
>>Oh, and I change my name to Eggplant Tempura.  Try and object to THAT.
>>
>>-Hubert
>>
>
>Acked.
>
>
>
>-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
>Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer

I don't think I'm the real acting registrar, though.  I think rufus is.

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Let's talk about threads
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:23:45 -0400 (EDT)

I note for the record that in the thread where Studge, A German Dog, and I
were 'diktaters', I voted -200 on the vile P4258.  It doesn't change the
results, but I want Acka to know just how anti-Agora and pro-Acka I am.

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: "Duncan C. \"Slakko\" Richer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:30:31 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:

> At 11:19 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 10:28 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >>I return from vacation. I make myself lycanthropic as a penguin. I
> >>change my name to "Pregnant Hippo".
> >>
> >>Laa Laa.
> >>
> >
> >Acked.
> >
> >>Oh, and I change my name to Eggplant Tempura.  Try and object to THAT.
> >>
> >>-Hubert
> >>
> >
> >Acked.
> >
> >
> >
> >-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
> >Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
> 
> I don't think I'm the real acting registrar, though.  I think rufus is.

He can't be - he doesn't hold any offices (at least not anymore).
The acting registrar is always an office holder, provided at least one
person holds an office.

-- 
Duncan C. "Slakko" Richer - http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/
Queens' College Cambridge, 2nd Year Ph.D. (Pure Maths) - Graph Theory
Insert random funny line here.

------------------------------

From: Henry Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 724 (FALSE)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 12:15:04 -0400 (EDT)

Call for Judgement 723 - August 2, 1999
Subject: Breakfast
Initiator: K2
Judge: IdiotBoy
Judgement:FALSE

Statement:
Between 22-Jun-99 04:58:14 and 30-Jun-99 14:39:06 Studge did not alter the
rules or the game state according to Rule 1 (as it read during that period).

Reasoning:
I didn't submit this until now cause I wasn't sure we were in a thread
where it was relevant.

This CFJ can only be TRUE in the thread that CFJ 722 is TRUE. Assuming
that to be the case:

* On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:57:32 P4207 was submitted.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:57:31 P4207's voting period ended.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:58:14 Invalid voting results for P4207 were
>       released.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:00:27 Studge announced a change to the rule set
>       attempting to create a rule defined entity "The Imperium".

* According to Rule 2 (Proposals):
     As soon as possible after a proposal's prescribed voting period
     ends, the votes on that proposal shall be posted publicly.
     [... conditions for ... ] then it is accepted. Otherwise it is
     rejected.

     If a proposal is accepted, one of two things happen. If the
     proposal consisted of a list of one-time effects, such as changes
     to the rules, then those effects shall be applied, one at a time,
     in the order in which they appear in the proposal. (Ambiguous,
     retroactive, and/or meaningless effects are ignored.)

For a proposal to have its effect applied it must be accepted. To be
accepted the votes on it must be released publicly - at the time of
Studge's attempted modification this had not occurred - some invalid
results had been ruleset and some players other than the promotor had
attempted to convince us they new the results, but the correct official
results had not been released.

* According to Rule 2-2 (Scoring When A Proposal's Voting Results are
Reported):

     I. Timing of these score changes

     All the following scoring changes are applied at the time the
     Proposal's tabulated voting results are officially reported,
     unless the new rule or effect calls for an instantaneous
     change to 1 or more players' score, in which case the score
     changes detailed in this rule are applied an infinitesimal
     amount of time after those effects are applied.

This supports the timeline - Results released then proposal has effect.

* Rule 2-1-2 (Mannna from Heaven):

     When A Proposal's Voting Results are Reported, but prior to any
     effects generated by it (including any scoring changes)

Another rule on the same theme. If Mannna changes occur after the
official results but before the proposals effect, the effects must occur
after the official results too.

Net effect is that between 22 Jun 1999 05:00:27 and 22 Jun 1999 19:41:07
when the official voting results were released was that rule one did not
empower Studge to amend the rules.

* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:08:56 JT issued an "Imperial Dictate" (ID).
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:12:39 Studge said "I concur to both dictates."
>       (refering to JT's "Imperial Dictate").

JT issues an "Imperial Dictate" which purports to modify the game state,
apparently Studge concurs with this action... is that the same as Studge
performing the action emself? If I said: The Angry Hammer transfers A$
10 from K 2 to JT and JT concurred with this what would happen?

* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:13:56 JT censored an ID and made another.
* On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:41:07 /dev/joe released the correct and
>       official voting results.
* On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 02:20:12 Studge said "I concur." in reference to
>       JT's ID.
* On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:19:27 JT issued an ID.
* On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:31:51 Studge said :
>       "If it wasn't, I make the same diktate and concur to that." in
>reference
>       to an earlier ID by JT on research.

Is issuing and concurring to a "diktate" the same as making a public
action?

I issue the following Imperial Dicate: K 2 transfers A$ to Studge.
I concur with this.

Now What?

* On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:39:06 P4224 Passed.

Hopefully it will be possible to apply the judge's reasoning on this CFJ
to determine if the last (or possibly earlier) diktate was successful in
the event this CFJ is not TRUE.

Judge's Reasoning:

The Initiator's reasoning has two main points.  Point, the first:  That
the attempted changes of rules and game state failed due to the timing of
the release of the proper results and the attempted actions.  Point, the
second:  The attempted actions were not actions at all.

On the first point:

This is the stickiest of issues.  There are reasonable persons on both
sides of this issue.  The Rules themselves are unclear on how to proceed
in this case.

The confusion here results from the automation which has made the game
work so well.  The Ackabot does an admirable job of collecting, tabulating
and reporting results.  But there are certain things which can and should
require human intervention.  The Tabulator has seen fit to give over to
the Ackabot the right to release voting results.

Since the voting results were released 22 Jun 1999 04:58:14, we are
rule-bound to accept that as the time when the acceptance or rejection
took place.

The fact that the Ackabot had an incorrect understanding of the game state
and denied to certain players their right to vote does not change the
actual game state.  Furthermore, the fact that Ackabot incorrectly
reported the results does not change the actual gamestate.  The voting
results were released 22 Jun 1999 04:58:14, so any and all effects which
follow from that must begin at that time.

At 22 Jun 1999 19:41:07, /dev/joe released corrected results.  This action
does not change the time at which the results were reported.  It merely
properly reports the game state.  The results were still released 22 Jun
1999 04:58:14.

On the second point:

There is considerable game custom to support the notion that when a group
of players wish to perform some public action, the following happen:

One of the players suggests an action.
Others who agree to be involved in the action concur with said action.
If there are a sufficient number of players concurring the action occuurs.

The fact that the players involved chose some irrelevant name for their
list of game actions does not make this chain of events less effective.

The game actions were posted to a public forum, implying game actions.
They were concurred to by a sufficient number of appropriate players.
They occured.

The Initiator cites the following as an example of why we should not
assume these were effective public actions:

	I issue the following Imperial Dicate: K 2 transfers A$ to Studge.
	I concur with this.

The difference is that there is only a single player involved.   There are
rule defined mechanisms for single players to perform game actions.  We
have only game custom to guide us on actions by groups.  (Ignoring for
the moment rule defined Institutions which have rules governing the means
of public action.)

--
-Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Spelling Bee
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:20:33 -0400 (EDT)

I initiate a flight of the Spelling Bee.  It will sting the rule 'The
Presidential Councils' to change 'privilage' to 'privilege' and 'familar'
to 'familiar'

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:29:15 -0400 (EDT)

At 10:28 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I return from vacation. I make myself lycanthropic as a penguin. I
>change my name to "Pregnant Hippo".
>
>Laa Laa.
>

Sigh... I guess we get to start all over with CFJ 722.  

Let me reemphasize my desire to get this threadsplit resolved.  It's been
going on MUCH too long.  If you are unwilling to be more quick about it
than last time, I encourage you to decline to judge it, so that K 2 and
/dev/joe, who were near a decision when you returned, can deal with this
CFJ with a bit more alacrity.
-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:31:29 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:

> /dev/joe, who were near a decision when you returned, can deal with this
> CFJ with a bit more alacrity.
                      ^^^^^^^^

Was this on your Word of the Day calendar or something? :)

IB

------------------------------

From: Rachel L Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT)

Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
> 
> At 10:28 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >I return from vacation. I make myself lycanthropic as a penguin. I
> >change my name to "Pregnant Hippo".
> >
> >Laa Laa.
> >
> 
> Sigh... I guess we get to start all over with CFJ 722.
> 
> Let me reemphasize my desire to get this threadsplit resolved.  It's been
> going on MUCH too long.  If you are unwilling to be more quick about it
> than last time, I encourage you to decline to judge it, so that K 2 and
> /dev/joe, who were near a decision when you returned, can deal with this
> CFJ with a bit more alacrity.

Okay then, if I can do so I decline to judge this cfj. I'm currently in
a bout of quite heavy depression irl so a fast judgement on my behalf is
unlikely, so if K 2 and /dev.joe were nearly there we may as well let
them continue. Sorry people.

Pregnant Hippo.

-- 
Tom "I am not a walrus" Walmsley. mailto:[email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html ICQ: 2925739
"Among wizards?" said Ridcully. "Mister Stibbons, unusual behaviour is
perfectly ordinary for wizards." - Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Return
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:55:02 -0400 (EDT)

At 02:31 PM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
>
>> /dev/joe, who were near a decision when you returned, can deal with this
>> CFJ with a bit more alacrity.
>                      ^^^^^^^^
>
>Was this on your Word of the Day calendar or something? :)
>

I'm a bit miffed.  I may not be JT or Alfvaen, but I still have at least a
passable vocabulary.  Expect word from my second.

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Spelling
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:39:27 -0400 (EDT)

I initiate a flight of the spelling bee.  It will sting the rule
Presidential Councils to replace 'and' with 'any' in the phrase 

'to appoint and voting player to fill a vacancy'

-- Emperor Ai! Pedrito!
Acting Registrar * DeeJay * Dungeon Master * Herald * Rule-Harfer
 Crazy French-Scotsman * Harfmeister * Student * Wrangler and Belt-Holder

------------------------------

From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Perfidious Looby
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:49:56 -0400 (EDT)

IdiotBoy has chosen to suggilate the erudite Emperor Ai! Pedrito!,
impiteously impinging eir voluminous vocabulary.

Such foul slander can not go unpunished. Emperor Ai! Pedrito! has sought
recourse to a deraignment to establish the falsehood of IdotBoy's vile
allegations.

We shall levigate you on the field of honour - delope or live in
miserable defeat.

K 2

------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: magic potato (Niccolo Flychuck)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:46:16 -0400 (EDT)

A German Dog (call him by his real name) wrote:
>> Rule 1-2 ("Conventions") was recently changed to read: 'When an event is
>> specified to occur on a particular day, it shall occur at noon (12:00) on
>> that day, unless specified otherwise. A "calendar week" starts at the
>> beginning of a Sunday and lasts 7 days.'
>>
>> I assumed this covered the potato?
>
>That is not a recent change, and the Potato rule has specified Monday at
>noon for the longest time.  Unless that got changed (I don't recall seeing
>such a change)
>

Well it must have, because it doesn't say Monday anymore.

King Felix

------------------------------

From: "Gavin Logan" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Summarizer
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:46:17 -0400 (EDT)

> I author an Impeachment Paper against BLMP as Summarizer.  He has
>not joined the acka-summarizer list and he has not made any effort to
>enlist support for creating the summary.  I vote YES on this IP.
>

There's an acka-summarizer list? How do I subscribe?

King Felix
(techno-dolt)

------------------------------

From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Summarizer
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:52:02 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Gavin Logan wrote:
> > I author an Impeachment Paper against BLMP as Summarizer.  He has
> >not joined the acka-summarizer list and he has not made any effort to
> >enlist support for creating the summary.  I vote YES on this IP.
> >
> 
> There's an acka-summarizer list? How do I subscribe?

send mail to [email-masked] with the word
'subscribe' (no quotes) in either the subject or the body.

--JT, (postmaster and Listar author :)

-- 
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Perfidious Looby
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 20:32:55 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, K 2 wrote:

> IdiotBoy has chosen to suggilate the erudite Emperor Ai! Pedrito!,
> impiteously impinging eir voluminous vocabulary.

Lusers!   Implying that IdiotBoy, past President, Rule-Harfer, and all
around swell guy has done anything unhounorable!  You should be ashamed
of yourself!  

As for that Ai! Perdito character, degree-holder in scamology, agoran spy,
and associator with Free-basers^Wmasons, we consider him barely worthy of
a response.

WE take rows.

rufus, second to the hournable IdiotBoy!

------------------------------

End of ackanomic Digest V4 #207
*******************************