Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #380
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest      Wednesday, October 28 1998      Volume 03 : Number 380

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:09:59 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 676 (1-UNDECIDED) (TEFKatSC)

> Slakko has judged this UNDECIDED.
> It therefore goes to a Supreme Cortex, TEFKatSC.
> Filling in for breadbox is Alfvaen.

Okay, now who is my co-Judge again?

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Tori Amos:Boys For Pele
Current Book--Juanita Coulson:Legacy of Earth
"Petting zoo?  I thought this was a Killing and Corpse Raping Zoo..."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:18:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 676 (1-UNDECIDED) (TEFKatSC)

At 12:09 AM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Slakko has judged this UNDECIDED.
>> It therefore goes to a Supreme Cortex, TEFKatSC.
>> Filling in for breadbox is Alfvaen.
>
>Okay, now who is my co-Judge again?

saaremaa
- --A Mean Hat.
Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master -- Art Thief -- Warrior Caste -- Crazy
French Scotsman -- Really Weird

- -- "Like a Rolling Stone... Like the FBI...Like the CIA" [The Beatles]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:02:21 -0500 (EST)
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Studge this one's for you :)

I give Studge all of my A$.

I hope you know what to do with em :)
K 2

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:05:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: burning a hole in my pocket

I give all the money I have (~$A1400) to Studge

- --A Mean Hat.
Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master -- Art Thief -- Warrior Caste -- Crazy
French Scotsman -- Really Weird

- -- "Like a Rolling Stone... Like the FBI...Like the CIA" [The Beatles]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:24:43 -0500 (EST)
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

I use some points to create a Go-fish

K 2

> >   (i)   A Player may convert 10 points into any Otzma Card with an
> >         F-Designation of Common.
> >   (ii)  A Player may convert 15 points into any Otzma Card with an
> >         F-Designation of Normal.
> >   (iii) A Player may convert 20 points into any Otzma Card with an
> >         F-Designation of Rare.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:29:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

I perform the following conversions:

30 points to 2 otzma card go-fish
60 points to 4 otzma card share your income

I play a share your income otzma card on Slakko, naming the sum A$1250 for
the SYI e played on me.

I convert 15 points to an otzma card Share your income

- --A Mean Hat.
Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master -- Art Thief -- Warrior Caste -- Crazy
French Scotsman -- Really Weird

- -- "I see a red door and I want to paint it black" [Paint it Black, the
Rolling Stones]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:33:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: quickly done

I convert as many points as I have and are necessary to get 2 OC shields
and as many paratroops as I can hadle without going over my OC limit.

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:36:22 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
>I perform the following conversions:
>
>30 points to 2 otzma card go-fish
>60 points to 4 otzma card share your income

JT thinks he made a goof in the swingpoint repeal and forgot to impose
a time limit on creations.

I donate A$1 to the twits, ask K2 to deliver unto me a sound thwapping,
and hide my head in shame as I go to repair the damage I wrought.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:37:22 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: quickly done

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Mueller wrote:
>I convert as many points as I have and are necessary to get 2 OC shields
>and as many paratroops as I can hadle without going over my OC limit.

The second part of this action is not fully specified and thus doesn't
occur.  The first part of this action is dependant on the second (as many
points as I have and are necessary) and thus does not occur as well.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:38:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: quickly done

At 02:33 AM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I convert as many points as I have and are necessary to get 2 OC shields
>and as many paratroops as I can hadle without going over my OC limit.

That is more specifically (if such is necessary) 30 points into 2 OC
shields, and the paratroops (for 15 each)

I give all my OCs to JAM and convert 60 points into 4 Lay Offs.

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:39:26 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Shields

I convert 30 points into two OC Shield.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:47:57 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: quickly done

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Mueller wrote:
>At 02:33 AM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>I convert as many points as I have and are necessary to get 2 OC shields
>>and as many paratroops as I can hadle without going over my OC limit.
>
>That is more specifically (if such is necessary) 30 points into 2 OC
>shields, and the paratroops (for 15 each)

This time the 2 shields were created.  However, the paratroops still were
not as 'how many you can handle without going over your limit' is a
reference to another document and thus not a legal specification for how
many card you created.

>I give all my OCs to JAM and convert 60 points into 4 Lay Offs.

These happen.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:48:14 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Shields

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, JT wrote:
>I convert 30 points into two OC Shield.

These did not occur since Studge beat me to it.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:50:56 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Cards

I give my OC Art Thief to JAM leaving me with 3 OC.

I create 3 OC Arctic Explorers for 45 points.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:55:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

At 02:29 AM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I perform the following conversions:
>
>30 points to 2 otzma card go-fish
>60 points to 4 otzma card share your income
>
>I play a share your income otzma card on Slakko, naming the sum A$1250 for
>the SYI e played on me.
>
>I convert 15 points to an otzma card Share your income

I play an OC shield naming A Mean Hat. and eir play of share your income.

Even if this wasn't properly specified, the OC shield is destroyed and I
get another for 15 points.

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:59:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

>At 02:29 AM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>I perform the following conversions:
>>
>>30 points to 2 otzma card go-fish
>>60 points to 4 otzma card share your income
>>
>>I play a share your income otzma card on Slakko, naming the sum A$1250 for
>>the SYI e played on me.
>>
>>I convert 15 points to an otzma card Share your income
>
>I play an OC shield naming A Mean Hat. and eir play of share your income.
>
>Even if this wasn't properly specified, the OC shield is destroyed and I
get another for 15 points.
>
>Studge

I didn't HAVE a shield to do this with as it was owned by JAM at this
moment, so as a priest of JAM I give Studge a OC Shield and repeat the
above, specifically:

I play an OC shield naming A Mean Hat. and eir play of share your income.

Even if this wasn't properly specified, the OC shield is destroyed and I
get another for 15 points.

This really works

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 03:03:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: quicker

Last trick.

I gice all my OCs to JAM and then spend 45 points on 3 InstaGadget OCs.

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 03:04:20 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Mueller wrote:
>>I convert 15 points to an otzma card Share your income
>
>I play an OC shield naming A Mean Hat. and eir play of share your income.

This did not occur as you had already given those OC Shields to JAM.

>Even if this wasn't properly specified, the OC shield is destroyed and I
>get another for 15 points.

This did not occur as OC Shield are at instance limit.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 03:04:49 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3686 accepted

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Mueller wrote:
>I didn't HAVE a shield to do this with as it was owned by JAM at this
>moment, so as a priest of JAM I give Studge a OC Shield and repeat the
>above, specifically:
>
>I play an OC shield naming A Mean Hat. and eir play of share your income.
>
>Even if this wasn't properly specified, the OC shield is destroyed and I
>get another for 15 points.
>
>This really works

Yes, these worked.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 03:07:31 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: quicker

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Mueller wrote:
>Last trick.
>
>I gice all my OCs to JAM and then spend 45 points on 3 InstaGadget OCs.

This works (even if you don't have the points, you just go negative).

OC are at 100 now.. there are no more able to be created until some are
destroyed.

I give A$1 to the twits and go to fix the OTHER bug in this (negative
points)

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:20:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 678 (Fortunato)

Fortunato has been selected.

Call for Judgement 678 - October 25, 1998
Subject: Stealing the Private Collection
Initiator: JT (sent Oct 25 1998, 15:45 Acka)
Judge: Fortunato
Judgement:

Statement:
	Private collection items are included when determining an item
stolen 'by mistake' through the use of an Otzma Card of type Art Thief.

Reasoning:
The relevant section of the rules is Rule 850, Section IX which I've
excerpted the relevant portion of here:

>For this reason it is impossible to steal anything from the Private
>Collection Room and any attempt to use an Otzma Card of type Art Thief
>to steal an object there automatically fails. However, the card is
>still used and the player is deemed to have been caught stealing. This
>paragraph of this rule takes precedence over rule 1240.15

Because of how this is phrased and in context, it seemed that the Art
Thief Card could not cause an item in the collection room to be stolen,
but could still target it.

In fact, the sentance after it implies that should such an item indeed be
targetted (either implicitly through that being the 'randomly selected'
item from the Art Thief or explicitly) then the player is caught stealing
automatically.

Therefore the CFJ statement should be true and the original random
determination made is correct.

If this CFJ is judged to be False, then the second random determination
made is correct.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:20:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 679 (Slakko)

Slakko has been selected.

Call for Judgement 679 - October 25, 1998
Subject: Musing on Poetry
Initiator: JT (sent Oct 25 1998, 20:29 Acka)
Judge: Slakko
Judgement: 

Statement:
   The poet or muse must dream to have the vision necessary to keep his
goal
in sight.

Reasoning:
   I would characterize this CFJ as being completely frivolous.  In fact,
in any country, even a Banna Republic, I would state that this CFJ has no
place nor reason.  It's sole aim is to distinguish the author, and mark
a place in the annals of Ackanomic History.  It shall be used to identify
the extreme length a player of any station will go through to fulfill a
condition placed upon him.  Fortunately, this CFJ can be retracted without
penalty.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:20:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: That there 3706.

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Matt Miller wrote:

> You know you love chaos.  Vote for it.  Vote in favor of it.  Vote 'YES'.
> 
> IB
> it is new, therefore I fear it.

Get the approval of every VP, every EVP, plus Griffin.

- -- 
Duncan C. Richer aka Slakko the Lost Warner Brother | Queens' College
http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/    Ackanomic     | U. of Cambridge
Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator  | 2nd Year PhD(PMa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:23:19 -0500 (EST)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Yuck

In light of the recent Otzma card scandal, I set my rebelliousness
characteristic to "on."

Vynd, disgruntled citizen

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:35:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: burning a hole in my pocket

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:

> I give all the money I have (~$A1400) to Studge
> 
> 

 I give all my A$ to Studge too...

- -- 
Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ.             #####
http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html                  o__#######
Wild Card of Acka, member of SPAM, wearing Silly Agenda Hats.    \'#######
Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo.  Holding the Silver Key to the Vault.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:52:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Yuck

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, John Frederic Mc Coy wrote:

> 
> In light of the recent Otzma card scandal, I set my rebelliousness
> characteristic to "on."
> 
> Vynd, disgruntled citizen
> 

I believe my rebelliousness characteristic is already set to "on", if it
is not, I do so now.  If it were possible under the rules, I would set it
to "extry bright".

IB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:52:53 -0500 (EST)
From: AARON KEESLER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: GAD! (Round 1)

Now that my proposal has passed (one of three, I think :), I feel fully
justified in starting a long-overdue game of Grab-A-Donkey.

Thus, I start a game of Grab-A-Donkey.  I am Belt-Holder and Wrangler
for this game.  Here is the GAL for the first round, which I shall call
Round 1.  A lot of players this time, so expect either fast and furious
action or a 2 month total deadlock!

Two things to remember:  First, this is the only round that you can
resign in.  If you want to not play (for some insane reason), reply and
resign.  Also, the new ability to distract has been added, mostly to
break up the middle-game doldrums, and to allow collusion between
players.  Reply to this message with your play.

Current GAL:

404 Not Found
Alfvaen
A Mean Hat.
Aunt Froot
Calvin N Hobbes
/dev/joe
eirs
IdiotBoy
JT
K 2
Leather Artifact
Rambo R Minuteman
Rex Mundi
Robert Sevin
Robin Hood
saaremaa
Slakko
Studge
The Green Ripper
ThinMan
two-star
Vynd
Wild Card

Current score:
Everyone: 1

Fortunato

- ------------------
Aaron Keesler
Lotus Notes Administrator
Intranet Administrator
Adtran, Inc.
- ------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:13:56 -0500 (EST)
From: AARON KEESLER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: *ping*

Today is Wednesday, the 28th of October, and the Machine That Goes
*ping* has gone *ping*.  Since I have been Scholar, the Machine has gone
*ping* 2 times.

Fortunato

- ------------------
Aaron Keesler
Lotus Notes Administrator
Intranet Administrator
Adtran, Inc.
- ------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:48:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: And after that slaughter...

Happy, Happy, Happy

(and i thought my score was too high for that)
- --A Mean Hat.
Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master -- Art Thief -- Warrior Caste -- Crazy
French Scotsman -- Really Weird

- -- "I see a red door and I want to paint it black" [Paint it Black, the
Rolling Stones]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:08:37 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: And after that slaughter...

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:

>Happy, Happy, Happy

I will await the Scorekeeper authenticating this.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:19:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: And after that slaughter...

At 01:08 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
>
>>Happy, Happy, Happy
>
>I will await the Scorekeeper authenticating this.
>
>--JT

That's fine.  I'm not *quite* sure about it myself.  I was looking at the
point logs, which go through prop 3683 (actually 3684, but they were in the
wrong order), and that implied to me that all changes since then had not
been done, and that those were the only ones.  Since then, i voted twice,
for 2 points, and made the 7 otzma cards.  that SHOULD have been net
- -103... but i'm not quite sure.  I mightve done something else in there

- --A Mean Hat.
Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master -- Art Thief -- Warrior Caste -- Crazy
French Scotsman -- Really Weird

- -- "I see a red door and I want to paint it black" [Paint it Black, the
Rolling Stones]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:26:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: otzma

I destroy one otzma card tactical retreat and create an otzma card of
type felicitous populi for however many points it costs.

RRM.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:36:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Money for nothing.

I offer A$25 to Rambo R. Minuteman for his foresight in attempting to
forestall the OC travesty we witnessed today.

IB
soon-to-be-demogogue.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:45:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: otzma

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> I destroy one otzma card tactical retreat and create an otzma card of
> type felicitous populi for however many points it costs.

Apparently this was nort specifically well specified. I convert 15 points
into an OC felicitous populi if it is legal to do so.

Rambo.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:48:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Money for nothing.

Matt Miller wrote:

> I offer A$25 to Rambo R. Minuteman for his foresight in attempting to
> forestall the OC travesty we witnessed today.

I do not accept this. I do however give an OC Skeleton Key to Idiot Boy
so he can create an OC of his choice.

Rambo.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:53:00 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: otzma

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:
>Tom Walmsley wrote:
>
>> I destroy one otzma card tactical retreat and create an otzma card of
>> type felicitous populi for however many points it costs.
>
>Apparently this was nort specifically well specified. I convert 15 points
>into an OC felicitous populi if it is legal to do so.

Yah yah yah.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:12:58 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Crisis and resolution

#retract 3711
#retract 3712
#end

As Speaker, I am declaring a state of Crisis.

I retracted the above proposals because someone pointed out still
another flaw in them. I am now going to try and make those same fixes
as well as patch another hole (big and gaping and very annoying possibly)
that was noticed.  I am not penalizing the people who took advantage of
the scam already, but will try to undo any further damage.

As President, I author the following CRD as delimited by OTZMA_AND_BV
OTZMA_AND_BV
Amend rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points), by inserting the following
NO_SCAM delimited text into section a so that numbering of the sub-points
is maintained.
NO_SCAM
   (iv)  This type of conversion may only be performed if a conversion
         of this type has not been performed by the player attempting it 
         during the prior 14 days.
NO_SCAM

Amend rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points), by inserting the following
NO_SCAM_II delimited text into section b so that the numbering of the
sub-points is maintained.
NO_SCAM_II
   (ii)  This type of conversion may only be performed if a conversion of
         this type has not been performed by the player attempting it
         during the prior 14 days.
NO_SCAM_II

Amend rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points) by inserting the following
text as delimited by NO_NEG_POINTS immediately before subsection a.
NO_NEG_POINTS

Regardless of anything else, a player may not make a conversion in
accordance with this rule which would result in eir having negative
points.

NO_NEG_POINTS

{{
  All Bonus Votes created by conversion since the time this CRD has been
  issued are destroyed and the player who created it will recieve 30
  points.
}}
{{[
   The reason for the above is that anyone who didn't care about their
   score could make an infinite number of bonus votes, burying them or
   giving them to orgs which could hold them.
   Now that this has been pointed out, hopefully noone will use it, but
   the above clause should rectify the problem.
]}}

{{
  JT loses 10 points for not catching all of this before submitting the
  proposal.
}}
OTZMA_AND_BV

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:58:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Crisis and resolution

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, JT wrote:

> #retract 3711
> #retract 3712
> #end
> 
> As Speaker, I am declaring a state of Crisis.
> 
> I retracted the above proposals because someone pointed out still
> another flaw in them. I am now going to try and make those same fixes
> as well as patch another hole (big and gaping and very annoying possibly)
> that was noticed.  I am not penalizing the people who took advantage of
> the scam already, but will try to undo any further damage.

The negative points scam is debatable.
Can you "convert 30 points" if you do not actually _have_ 30 points to
convert?
I think that the nature of negative points has not yet been discussed
sufficiently in law to merit immediate assumptions that conversions which
result in negative scores are legal.

There should be a CFJ on this issue.

Otherwise, the President is scamming us.
- -- 
Duncan C. Richer aka Slakko the Lost Warner Brother | Queens' College
http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/    Ackanomic     | U. of Cambridge
Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator  | 2nd Year PhD(PMa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:08:10 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Crisis and resolution

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>The negative points scam is debatable.
>Can you "convert 30 points" if you do not actually _have_ 30 points to
>convert?
>I think that the nature of negative points has not yet been discussed
>sufficiently in law to merit immediate assumptions that conversions which
>result in negative scores are legal.

The problem here is that it says (in the conversion rule) that the player
'loses the number of points named'.
According to rule 603
Points are entities. It is possible for a Player to have a negative number
of points. 

>There should be a CFJ on this issue.

perhaps, but I think the above is fairly clear.   You are certainly free
to call a CFJ on it, and if you do I will retract the CRD at that time.

>Otherwise, the President is scamming us.

How so, even if it's not possible to convert so that one has negative
points, it's still a fairly large hole.  I would still rather see it
patched quicker rather than later.  If you see some other hole I'm opening
up with the CRD, please tell me and I'll retract it.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:46:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Crisis and resolution

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, JT wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> How so, even if it's not possible to convert so that one has negative
> points, it's still a fairly large hole.  I would still rather see it
> patched quicker rather than later.  If you see some other hole I'm opening
> up with the CRD, please tell me and I'll retract it.

I just wonder whether this is actually worth a Crisis.
Especially when you consider that this gives one person the power to amend
the rules as e sees fit (provided there is no objection).

If anyone else objects, I will stand with them.  However, if I am the lone
voice in the wilderness, there is not much I can do anyway.

- -- 
Duncan C. Richer aka Slakko the Lost Warner Brother | Queens' College
http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/    Ackanomic     | U. of Cambridge
Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator  | 2nd Year PhD(PMa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:00:56 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Crisis and resolution

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, JT wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>
>> How so, even if it's not possible to convert so that one has negative
>> points, it's still a fairly large hole.  I would still rather see it
>> patched quicker rather than later.  If you see some other hole I'm opening
>> up with the CRD, please tell me and I'll retract it.
>
>I just wonder whether this is actually worth a Crisis.
>Especially when you consider that this gives one person the power to amend
>the rules as e sees fit (provided there is no objection).

Yes, but you can see (and do see) the changes I'm making.
It's not like I can unilaterally make changes, and if I tried, especially 
if I tried to advantage myself, I'd fully expect to be impeached.

In fact, i specifically *dis*advantaged myself in that CRD (by 10 points)

>If anyone else objects, I will stand with them.  However, if I am the lone
>voice in the wilderness, there is not much I can do anyway.

At least one other player pointed something out to me earlier and i will
be redoing this CRD tonight.  I do believe it's sufficiently scammy as it
stands now that a CRD is better than waiting for a week.  Especially with
IB's OC destruction in there.  if that passes, somone could
(theoretically) snag up all the OC and bury them as treasure (thus
effectively removing them from the game at a cost of points).

While I feel bad that this proposal had this scam in it, I am not the only
person who voted for it either.  If people really would rather see me fix
this by proposal instead of CRD, then I will do so.

Please tell me so privately however, just to avoid cluttering the list.

In the meantime I retract the CRD currently submitted (as I said, someone
else pointed out a flaw) and I will resubmit it or a proposal later this
evening.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:22:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Name Change

I fancy a short name. One I can type out quickly and easily and won't
have to resort to cutting down to a TLA. I therefore request that
registrar JT acknowledge my name change to the following double quote
delimited string: "Gromit".

Rambo R Minuteman (for probably the last time).

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:59:09 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Name Change

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:
>I fancy a short name. One I can type out quickly and easily and won't
>have to resort to cutting down to a TLA. I therefore request that
>registrar JT acknowledge my name change to the following double quote
>delimited string: "Gromit".

I acknowledge this name change.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:18:26 -0500 (EST)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Crisis resolution redone

I only got one or two comments in response to my question before, and
those said go with the CRD, so I am.

/dev/joe (and A Mean Hat. and Rambo R Minuteman) pointed out to me that
the CRD I issued earlier still had a hole in it.  Essentially, assuming
converting when you had zero or negative points was allowed, you could
trigger Keep 'Em In The Game repeatedly, and then when my initial CRD took
effect you would gain back the points you had spent on BV.  However, it
didn't remove the points that could/would be gained from Keep 'Em In The
Game and thus a person could easily get a point win (under the
assumptions).  That is the primary change in the one below.  I do urge
people to read this carefully.  There are no intentional loopholes in
this. 

I issue the following (corrected) CRD as delimited by OTZMA_AND_BV
OTZMA_AND_BV
Amend rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points), by inserting the following
NO_SCAM delimited text into section a so that numbering of the sub-points
is maintained.
NO_SCAM
   (iv)  This type of conversion may only be performed if a conversion
         of this type has not been performed by the player attempting it 
         during the prior 14 days.
NO_SCAM

Amend rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points), by inserting the following
NO_SCAM_II delimited text into section b so that the numbering of the
sub-points is maintained.
NO_SCAM_II
   (ii)  This type of conversion may only be performed if a conversion of
         this type has not been performed by the player attempting it
         during the prior 14 days.
NO_SCAM_II

Amend rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points) by inserting the following
text as delimited by NO_NEG_POINTS immediately before subsection a.
NO_NEG_POINTS

Regardless of anything else, a player may not make a conversion in
accordance with this rule which would result in eir having negative
points.

NO_NEG_POINTS

{{
  Each Bonus Vote created by conversion since the time this CRD has been
  issued are destroyed and the player who created it will recieve 30
  points.
  Each player who has received points from rule 206 (Keep 'Em In The Game)
  since this CRD has been issued and has made at least one conversion of
  points via rule 1045 (Alternative uses for points) into Bonus Votes
  or Otzma Cards which left em with a negative number of points,
  shall lose all points e gained from rule 206 since this CRD was issued.
}}
{{[
   The reason for the above is that anyone who didn't care about their
   score could make an infinite number of bonus votes, burying them or
   giving them to orgs which could hold them.
   Now that this has been pointed out, hopefully noone will use it, but
   the above clause should rectify the problem.
]}}
{{
  JT loses 10 points for not catching all of this before submitting the
  proposal (and the fixes).
}}
OTZMA_AND_BV

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

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End of ackanomic digest V3 #380
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