Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #362
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest       Friday, October 16 1998       Volume 03 : Number 362

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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:57:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re:  Contracka and Treasure

>>I sign on the dotted line.
>
>I also sign on the dotted line.

I draw lines between the dots of the dotted line, making it a plain line.

CnH

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:16:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
>I apologize then for my illegal map and announce that JT has found "Clocks
>that Bicker in Marble Ships."  The map was as I said.  I, as a relative
>newbie, was not aware that this was the way game custom.  In particular, I
>remembered the following treasure, which received no comment when it was
>(A) created (B) found.  

I thank A Mean Hat for this.
I then give "Clocks that Bicker in Marble Ships" to A Mean Hat so that he
may rebury it with a map closer to his original intent or idea.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:28:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

>
>I thank A Mean Hat for this.
>I then give "Clocks that Bicker in Marble Ships" to A Mean Hat so that he
>may rebury it with a map closer to his original intent or idea.
>
>--JT
>
I thank JT for this
I then wait on burying this for the answer to the following question

would the following map be valid:

When the player known as A Mean Hat. wants it to be, this treasure is found
as follows:....<MAP A>

When the player known as A Mean Hat. wants it to be, this treasure is found
as follows:....<MAP B>

With MAP A and MAP B replaced with normal types of map.  This doesnt seem
to involve actual changing of the map, but seems to provide the same
general effect.  It seems rather similar to the before/after Jan 1999 that
ThinMan suggested.

or how about:

This Treasure will be found by whoever A Mean Hat. says it is found by.

Will either of those cause problems as this last one did?

- --A Mean Hat.
  Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master - Warrior Caste - Crazy French
Scotsman - Really Weird

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:04:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
>would the following map be valid:
>
>When the player known as A Mean Hat. wants it to be, this treasure is found
>as follows:....<MAP A>
>
>When the player known as A Mean Hat. wants it to be, this treasure is found
>as follows:....<MAP B>
>
>With MAP A and MAP B replaced with normal types of map.  This doesnt seem
>to involve actual changing of the map, but seems to provide the same
>general effect.  It seems rather similar to the before/after Jan 1999 that
>ThinMan suggested.
>
>or how about:
>
>This Treasure will be found by whoever A Mean Hat. says it is found by.
>
>Will either of those cause problems as this last one did?

I know that maps like the last one have been done many times in the past.
So that at least is valid.  However,  would not like to see that type of
map used to circumvent a player who found the treasure (through any means
of research) from finding it.  I also think a treasure with a map like
that is a prime target for a gold-digger hearing.

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:15:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

>At 10:20 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Several things.
>>
>>1) saaremaa is quite right when he says that the map may not be changed
>>   after it is written.  He is also correct that self-amending treasure maps
>>   in particular do not work, although he didn't mention that the same effect
>>   can be achieved without self-amendment (i.e. "Before 1/1/99 ....  On or
>>   after 1/1/99....").
>
>Does this mean that my map creation failed or just that the self-amendment
>will not occur or what?

It means that the self-amendment will not occur.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:18:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Head Apollo" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Contracka and Treasure

i sign on the dotted line.

risE

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:35:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

>would the following map be valid:
>
>When the player known as A Mean Hat. wants it to be, this treasure is found
>as follows:....<MAP A>
>
>When the player known as A Mean Hat. wants it to be, this treasure is found
>as follows:....<MAP B>
>
>With MAP A and MAP B replaced with normal types of map.  This doesnt seem
>to involve actual changing of the map, but seems to provide the same
>general effect.  It seems rather similar to the before/after Jan 1999 that
>ThinMan suggested.
>
>or how about:
>
>This Treasure will be found by whoever A Mean Hat. says it is found by.
>
>Will either of those cause problems as this last one did?

The second is certainly valid, and has been used before.  I'm not sure
that I understand what you mean by the first, but if I get your meaning
correctly then yes, something along those lines might work as well.

HOWEVER:

I personally consider this sort of thing to be in poor taste.  You should
have firm criteria for what is necessary to find the treasure; if you
have such then you should be able to write them down.  I don't look down
on all personal judgements in treasure map conditions, but the scope
should be pretty limited (e.g. "The author of the best (as judged by
me) poem about the Chartreuse Goose shall find the treasure).

You should not be upset if a player manages to satisfy the conditions in
a way you did not expect.  Nor are you justified in attempting to withhold
the treasure.  You are, however, entitled to interpret the conditions of
the map according to your own judgement -- although you have a gold
digger hearing to fear if you take inappropriate liberties.

You should not rely on criteria that you cannot easilly verify.  For
instance, this whole flap would never have arisen if JT had not told you
where he got the information, but he still would have violated the
pseudo-conditions you were trying to impose.  Having written those
conditions into the map would not have helped.  Remember also that the
information you release about the treasure before it is found, including
anything you claim to be the map, is not required to be accurate.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:38:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Office nominations

The nomination period for Tabulator, Promoter and Rule-Harfer has ended.

I would like to thank everyone who nominated for being willing to take on
the work required and will make a decision on the offices shortly.
(primarily to give Fortunato a chance to release voting results for
that batch of props)

The following people were the nominees

Tabulator:
- ---------------------------------
A Mean Hat
JT
K 2
Fortunato
Rambo R. Minuteman
/dev/joe

Promoter:
- ---------------------------------
A Mean Hat
JT
K 2
Saaremaa
Rambo R. Minuteman
/dev/joe

Rule Harfer:
- ---------------------------------
A Mean Hat
Studge
JT
K 2

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:43:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Otherstuff.

What about Postmaster?  Does any have authority to add new
players/observers to the muppetlabs lists?  

Anyone wanna take over administration on ackanomic.org lists, if I set
them up?

IB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:48:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alexandre Owen Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Bandwagon

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:44:15 Gavin M. Doig wrote:
> I go to the Ackanomic Institute of Genetic Replication.
> 
> Rex Mundi.
> 

I do this also.

**two-star

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:48:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alexandre Owen Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Curious clock.

Forgot to show the map, so let me try this again. TJ has found the treasure containing the Curious Clock.

The Map was:

This treasure shall be found by the first player to create a forgery with a value of 24 A$

**two-star

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [ackanomic] Re: Acka: treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>I think that changing the conditions of a treasure map would constitute a
>substantive change to the game state (and would hence be an illegal
>manipulation unless the rules specifically permitted it, which they
>don't).

You might be correct here, and I'd prefer that to be the case.  I was
merely pointing out (in the PWCFJ) that if a map can morph itself, a
paradox becomes possible. 

I do intend to retract that CFJ as soon as it's distributed since it seems
that player consensus is that maps cannot/should not be altered in this
way.

>Even without implicit entityhood, the requirement that non-entity
>manipulations not affect the game state would prevent map changes (I think
>that changing the conditions of the map significantly would have an effect
>on the game state).

you are probably correct.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:04:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Curious clock.

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Alexandre Owen Muniz wrote:

>Forgot to show the map, so let me try this again. TJ has found the
>treasure containing the Curious Clock. 
>
>The Map was:
>
>This treasure shall be found by the first player to create a forgery with
>a value of 24 A$

Interstingly enough, this means I *just* found this treasure.
which means I found it after I signed the silver shovel contract :)

I go to the museum and donate the Curious Clock making it an antiquity.
I return home.

- --JT, feeling an extreme case of deja vu.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:07:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Otherstuff.

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Matt Miller wrote:
>What about Postmaster?  Does any have authority to add new
>players/observers to the muppetlabs lists?  

I have the ability to do this.

>Anyone wanna take over administration on ackanomic.org lists, if I set
>them up?

I would be willing, howeer, unless and until breadbox goes on Ice, I'm
probably going to leave this alone for now.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:15:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Niccolo Flychuck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:

> At 02:59 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >I'm resending this the second time.   Hopefully the first time will still
> >show up from muppetlabs at some point and the time will be before A Mean
> >Hat changed the map.
> >
> >The author of the quote was Dylan Thomas however.  (just in case his new
> >map has the same answer, like he wouldn't change it again even if it did
> >:/)
> >
> >--JT
> 
> This is true.  The author was Dylan Thomas.  However, I felt that the
> method JT used to find the treasure was against the spirit of the treasure
> (I had intended for the treasure to be found by someone who recognized the
> play Under Milkwood or the style of Dylan Thomas, rather than the first
> player to check Altavista.  That events came to this was MY fault, because

And if someone had seen the quotation in a print publication, would that
have made a difference?
How can one become familiar with a style without reading the quotes, or
references somewhere before?

Niccolo Flychuck

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: acting officers

The Speaker should appoint acting officers for breadbox's
political offices, or (imo), explicitly state that e is
filling them emself.

saaremaa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:22:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (1-FALSE) (Amicus Draconis)

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> Cortez has taken too long.  This goes to Amicus Draconis.
> 
> Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
> Subject: Literature Translation
> Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent Sep 10 1998, 18:35 Acka)
> Judge: JT (selected Sep 11 1998, 11:30 Acka)
> Judgement: FALSE (promulgated Sep 12 1998, 04:02 Acka)
> Appellant: saaremaa (at Sep 12 1998, 11:45 Acka)
> 1st Cortex: Cortez's Courtly Cortege (Alfvaen and Calvin N Hobbes)
> (assigned Sep 12 1998, 11:53 Acka) (too slow)
> 2nd Cortex: Amicus Draconis (JT and Vynd)
> Judgement:
> 
> Statement:
> An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
> which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
> it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
> accepted.
> What is the correct rendering of "source"?  It is well known that in the
> modern process of publishing literature, the author's manuscript is
> edited by a staff editor before going into print.  In some cases the
> author has final say, but in some cases the editorial staff has final say,
> and for a given work or artist, it will not be generally well known who
> had final say.  This also applies to recorded music where producers add
> vocals to the final mix, etc.  What is the "source" in this case.  The
> original author's manuscript, or the staff editor's "translation" of that?
> Where is the line drawn between translation and editorial rework?  What
> basis does the rule give us to draw the line anywhere?

But the author's name is put on the text, identifying it as a work he'd be
willing to put, well, put eir name on. A translation credits the
translator as well. While I, when I wear my translator's hat, find that
the highest complement the translator can receive is that he was invisible
in the translation, I think that "works by Homer" should refer to works
in the original language written. 

Niccolo Flychuck

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:28:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: acting officers

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Randy Hall wrote:
>The Speaker should appoint acting officers for breadbox's
>political offices, or (imo), explicitly state that e is
>filling them emself.

This is probably true, though I fill them by default.
As President, I believe that I am acting Postmaster.
As Speaker, I believe that I am acting Historian, Poet Laurete, and
Spelling Exchequer.

If anyone really wishes to perform any of the optional offices
(Postmaster, Historian, Poet Laurete and Spelling Exchequer are all
option) please let me know.

Slakko needs to choose a justice to replace him on the cortex.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 674 (TRUE)

> Proposal 3621 was not null.

And who said the acting rule-harfer had nothing to do :-)

saaremaa
just a reminder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:44:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 674 (TRUE)

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Randy Hall wrote:

>> Proposal 3621 was not null.
>
>And who said the acting rule-harfer had nothing to do :-)

Fortunately, I have 3 days to perform that and by that time the
Rule-Harfership will be decided :)  (i'm gonna make the decision on all of
them tonight/tomorrow morning)

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:11:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Yet another reading of the chorg

I open my spellbook of chorg to page 6 and read that page.
The letters upon the page catch fire with a violent green-flame as I read
them leaving page six a charred ember, but causing no harm to the rest of
the book.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:18:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Dice server)
Subject: Acka: Forked Tongue

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dice rolls requested by: JT <[email-masked]>
Rolls also sent to:
    [email-masked]

# Player: JT
# This player has a forked tongue and read a Spell Book of Chorg or
# some small number of pages from the ackanomicon
#  1 -  25 The tongue worked.
# 26 - 100 The tongue did not work and the determination is random.

No. of sides on every die:    100
No. of dice for every roll:     1
No. of dice rolls requested:    1
No. of rolls per line:          1

     11

Information on the dice server:
   DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
   Replies to [email-masked] vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.

   For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
   subject "help" to [email-masked], or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/

   The dice server is provided by:

      Shadow Island Games
      http://www.pbm.com/

=================================================
             ** NewHoo Web Directory **
    An army of editors surfing the web for you!
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Original message follows:
> From [email-masked]  Fri Oct 16 20:18:07 1998
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
>       id UAA13305 for <[email-masked]>; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:18:07 -0700
> Received: from herne.dragoncat.net(207.54.31.1) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
>       id sma013301; Fri Oct 16 20:18:01 1998
> Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost)
>       by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14085
>       for <[email-masked]>; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:18:17 -0700
> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: JT <[email-masked]>
> Reply-To: JT <[email-masked]>
> To: Dice Server <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Acka: Tongue
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> #P [email-masked]
> #S 100
> #D 1
> #R 1
> #L 1
> #T Acka: Forked Tongue
> 
> #C Player: JT
> #C This player has a forked tongue and read a Spell Book of Chorg or
> #C some small number of pages from the ackanomicon
> #C
> #C  1 -  25 The tongue worked.
> #C 26 - 100 The tongue did not work and the determination is random.
> 
> 
> [-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
> [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
> [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
> [-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
> 
> 

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Version: 2.7

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:19:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Yet another reading of the chorg

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, JT wrote:
>I open my spellbook of chorg to page 6 and read that page.
>The letters upon the page catch fire with a violent green-flame as I read
>them leaving page six a charred ember, but causing no harm to the rest of
>the book.

Since my Forked Tongue worked, I choose an Oztma Card of type Map Shard.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:29:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Nomination results

I am still going to hold off on announcing the new tabulator (probably
until monday so that I don't violate speed) to give Fortunato time to
finish tabulating the votes for that final batch of proposals.

I am going to announce the new Promotor and Rules-Harfer now however, and
just ask that people hold off voting on any new proposals until I announce
the tabulator (thanks)

It is my pleasure to appoint /dev/joe as the new Promotor.
It is also my pleasure to appoint A Mean Hat as the new Rules-Harfer.

I'm sure that both will perform their jobs well.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:53:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: New proposal bot

JT wrote:
> It is my pleasure to appoint /dev/joe as the new Promotor.

My new proposal bot is up and running at [email-masked] (or
[email-masked] if you prefer).  It uses roughly the same
syntax as the old nomicbot did, though not all commands are
implemented.

To submit proposals, send them in the body of a message to this address
with the following syntax:

#submit proposal Your Proposal's Title Goes Here
This is the body of the proposal, which should suggest at least one
change to the game state.

It may contain whatever text you want, except that it is ended by a line
beginning with #end.  If #end appears alone, that marks the end of all
commands in the message; otherwise, it only marks the end of the proposal:
#end proposal

You can also send #vote commands here, but they will not be valid until
I am tabulator.

Eventually you will be able to send #bonusvote and #tammany commands here,
and other commands which will allow you to extract data from the bot like
the list or text of current proposals.

The bot isn't thoroughly tested (though I performed some simple tests)
so it is possible somebody may crash it or break it in ways I don't expect.
All mail sent to the bot address is saved, so if something goes wrong, I
should be able to reconstruct things.

/dev/joe
Promoter

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V3 #362
*******************************