Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #361
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest       Friday, October 16 1998       Volume 03 : Number 361

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Tabulator

> Since I'm not sure even if what I am doing is legal, I thought I would
> throw this out for everyone...

It is not, but I think that's ok, if you look at it the right way.
 
> Right now, I am going on the interpretation that I, as Tabulator,
> received these proposals all at the same time.  Thus, I plan on having a
> 7-day voting period (which expires on Monday, incidentally).
> 
> Is this a reasonable interpretation?  

The interpretation I prefer is that you are attempting to do your duty
to determine the voting results that breadbox failed to post.  Asking people
to tell you how they voted seems reasonable, but allowing people to vote 
now is not.  The distinction only really matters if voting eligibilty 
between now and the proposal's actual voting period changed w.r.t.
particular persons.

As to the 7 day period, I see no reason to pick that number unless you believe
that gives you the best chance to get it right.  My advice would be to 
coordinate with JT, and release your conclusions before e picks another 
tabulator.  After e does so, your tabulation will have no meaning whatsoever
(unless that tabulator goes on vacation or somesuch or e picks you), and we
will have to send the stuff *again* to the new tabulator.  Yuck.

Finally, the errors you make will be corrected by the pragmatism clause,
so, except for the above comments, all seems acceptable with what you are
doing.

saaremaa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Glutton

I change my rebelliousness characteristic to "on".

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Jimmy George:Outside-In
Current Book--Anne Rice:The Queen of The Damned
"Hi there, my name is Legion, and I'll be your server for this evening."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:07:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Apologies

Been slacking off again...updated pointlog and scores should be up on my
web page by the time you see this.  I do not guarantee their accuracy,
so if you think I missed your gaining points or someone else losing them,
let me know.  Fortnightly Dividends(with similar provisos)coming shortly.

I also note that the Big White Gazette went belly-up a couple of weeks ago,
more or less intentionally.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Jimmy George:Outside-In
Current Book--Anne Rice:The Queen of The Damned
If you want to put yourself on the map, publish your own map.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:07:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659

> CFJ 659 (the appeal of the Homeric literature translation one),
> has been in under appeal for over 30 days.

Oops.  Cortez's Courtly Cortege has reached a verdict on this, but
haven't gotten around to writing up our reasoning, Slumbering Giants
as we both are.  I guess we'll just have to append it as Bronze Torch
reasoning.  (This isn't it, but the fact that the Scorekeeper has
final say is a telling point.)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Jimmy George:Outside-In
Current Book--Anne Rice:The Queen of The Damned
Sixty zippers were quickly picked from the woven jute bag.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:16:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Fortnightly Dividends, October 12, 1998

Here were the score changes over the past fortnight:

JT: 71
Slakko: 33
breadbox: 24
Altra the FireCat: 22
K 2: 22
Rambo R Minuteman: 20
/dev/joe: 18
404 Not Found: 17
Alfvaen: 15
Calvin N Hobbes: 15
Fortunato: 15
risE: 15
saaremaa: 15
Studge: 15
Robin Hood: 13
A Mean Hat.: 10
Rex Mundi: 8
Vynd: 8
The Green Ripper: 6
ThinMan: 6
two-star: 6
IdiotBoy: -10
Wild Card: -13

You know what to do.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Current Song--Rhea's Obsession:Hymn To Pan
Current Book--Anne Rice:The Queen of The Damned
"I suddenly feel the urge to strut my funky stuff!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 02:48:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Testing again

Well, the SMTP port seems back up.. let's see if I can tickle it into
sending something out.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 02:59:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

I'm resending this the second time.   Hopefully the first time will still
show up from muppetlabs at some point and the time will be before A Mean
Hat changed the map.

The author of the quote was Dylan Thomas however.  (just in case his new
map has the same answer, like he wouldn't change it again even if it did
:/)

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:06:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Org action

I suggest that JAM transfer A$200 to me.
I suggest that JAM transfer 2 OC Art Thief to me.

Since I am a priest, these actions happen.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:08:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: OC Use

Since it's been over 3 days since my last use of an Otzma Card
I play the OC Training regime that I own and name DEX.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:09:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

At 02:59 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm resending this the second time.   Hopefully the first time will still
>show up from muppetlabs at some point and the time will be before A Mean
>Hat changed the map.
>
>The author of the quote was Dylan Thomas however.  (just in case his new
>map has the same answer, like he wouldn't change it again even if it did
>:/)
>
>--JT

This is true.  The author was Dylan Thomas.  However, I felt that the
method JT used to find the treasure was against the spirit of the treasure
(I had intended for the treasure to be found by someone who recognized the
play Under Milkwood or the style of Dylan Thomas, rather than the first
player to check Altavista.  That events came to this was MY fault, because
I released the extra, easily searchable, continuation of the first phrase.  
i attempted to remedy this as soon as i became aware of it, by changing the
map.  This DID interfere with JT's finding of the treasure(assuming his
first message is lost/late).  I give JT A$5, and, again, apologize to JT.

- --A Mean Hat.
  Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master - Warrior Caste - Crazy French
Scotsman - Really Weird

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:13:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Dice server)
Subject: acka: JT's regime roll 

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dice rolls requested by: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Rolls also sent to:
    [email-masked]

# JT's regime roll
# 1 Str
# 2 Int
# 3 Wis
# 4 Con
# 5 Cha

No. of sides on every die:      5
No. of dice for every roll:     1
No. of dice rolls requested:    1
No. of rolls per line:          1

      3

Information on the dice server:
   DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
   Replies to [email-masked] vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.

   For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
   subject "help" to [email-masked], or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/

   The dice server is provided by:

      Shadow Island Games
      http://www.pbm.com/

=================================================
             ** NewHoo Web Directory **
    An army of editors surfing the web for you!
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Original message follows:
> From [email-masked]  Fri Oct 16 00:12:58 1998
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
>       id AAA26842 for <[email-masked]>; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:12:58 -0700
> Received: from uclink4.Berkeley.EDU(128.32.25.39) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
>       id sma026840; Fri Oct 16 00:12:51 1998
> Received: from nor-90-114 (nor-90-114.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.90.114])
>       by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA20527
>       for <[email-masked]>; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
> Message-Id: <[email-masked]>
> X-Sender: [email-masked]
> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 
> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:16:32 -0400
> To: [email-masked]
> From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
> Subject: 
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> #P [email-masked]
> #S 5
> #D 1
> #R 1
> #L 1
> #C JT's regime roll
> #C 1 Str
> #C 2 Int
> #C 3 Wis
> #C 4 Con
> #C 5 Cha
> #T acka: JT's regime roll 
> 
> --A Mean Hat.
>   Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master - Warrior Caste - Crazy French
> Scotsman - Really Weird
>   

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Version: 2.7

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d4N3vhG55wWisUNNxQQTPHoWrCd+CPdaP7X4Jvi/qdJYTM9oUDgPzsBdmeAMjmCN
VIzLyiAm+mXzql8EJV3TutI336MpsuOZKPz4cC+GSGkAzLYISJd4Eapdv4dDlVFe
WXTk3OR0gs4=
=XnEa
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:15:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:
>This is true.  The author was Dylan Thomas.  However, I felt that the
>method JT used to find the treasure was against the spirit of the treasure
>(I had intended for the treasure to be found by someone who recognized the
>play Under Milkwood or the style of Dylan Thomas, rather than the first
>player to check Altavista.  That events came to this was MY fault, because
>I released the extra, easily searchable, continuation of the first phrase.  
>i attempted to remedy this as soon as i became aware of it, by changing the
>map.  This DID interfere with JT's finding of the treasure(assuming his
>first message is lost/late).  I give JT A$5, and, again, apologize to JT.

No, you specifically said on IRC that you attempted to hubert me out of
finding it.   The fact that the quote was web-searchable is just a fact of
life.   You only became aware that it was web searchable because I said
something on IRC *after* saying that I had already submitted my answer.
Changing the map to specifically prevent someone from finding it,
regardless of HOW they came by the information is bad sportsmanship.  This
is what I object to.   Your apology is not accepted because of the way you
did this.

I return the A$5 that A Mean Hat gave me, since the money isn't the point.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:34:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Testing

Is this list down for the count again?

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 05:12:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 659 (1-FALSE) (Amicus Draconis)

Cortez has taken too long.  This goes to Amicus Draconis.

Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
Subject: Literature Translation
Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent Sep 10 1998, 18:35 Acka)
Judge: JT (selected Sep 11 1998, 11:30 Acka)
Judgement: FALSE (promulgated Sep 12 1998, 04:02 Acka)
Appellant: saaremaa (at Sep 12 1998, 11:45 Acka)
1st Cortex: Cortez's Courtly Cortege (Alfvaen and Calvin N Hobbes)
 (assigned Sep 12 1998, 11:53 Acka) (too slow)
2nd Cortex: Amicus Draconis (JT and Vynd) 
Judgement:

Statement:
An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
accepted.

Initiator's Reasoning:
I think this should be judged FALSE.Whilst a translation of a foreign
artist bears many things in comon with the works of the foreign artist,
that artist was not actually the author and hence the literature rule
should not apply..

Judge's Reasoning:
Reasoning:
Rule 210 is quite clear that literature must:

>A) The proposal must contain in its body [as opposed to title] one or
>   more quotations from sources listed on the Literature list. This
>   quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written, uttered or
>   otherwise communicated by the source, enclosed in quotation
>   marks. It must contain one of the following:

In order for a quote of literature by Homer to be valid, it must be an
*exact copy* of words written, uttered or otherwise communicated by the
source.

Quoting from a translation of that source, however accurate the
translation is, is not an exact copy of words written, uttered or
otherwise communicated by the source, but rather of words written, uttered
or otherwise communicated by the translator.  Unless that translator were
also on the Literature list, or unless the specific translation were on
the Literature list, then that quote would not be literature.

Appealer's Comments:

The key sentence for one line of reasoning, the line of reasoning the
Judge apparently took, is:

> This quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written,
> uttered or otherwise communicated by the source,

What is the correct rendering of "source"?  It is well known that in the
modern process of publishing literature, the author's manuscript is
edited by a staff editor before going into print.  In some cases the
author has final say, but in some cases the editorial staff has final say,
and for a given work or artist, it will not be generally well known who
had final say.  This also applies to recorded music where producers add
vocals to the final mix, etc.  What is the "source" in this case.  The
original author's manuscript, or the staff editor's "translation" of that?
Where is the line drawn between translation and editorial rework?  What
basis does the rule give us to draw the line anywhere?

Moreover, different printings or editions of the same work will have
different texts.  Examples include *The Stand* by Stephen King and The
Bible, Old and New Testaments.  What is the "source" in these examples?
If *any* is the answer, than *any* publication of a Homeric quote should
qualify.  It is also known, at least in the case of Plato, that scribes
at the time changed his work during transcription, even though the
language
did not change.  Could this have happened with Homer?  Who knows?  How
do we find the "source"?

We could just say that the quote must be in the original language, and
forget all these other details, but I do not see where the rules *force*
us to do this, but at the same time *allow* us to ignore the other similar
problems.

I feel that the Judge took an extremely narrow rendering of the word
"source", where a broader, more reasonable rendering is both preferable,
customary, and supported by the rule.  Which leads to the second line of
reasoning:

> All such proofs are adjudicated by the scorekeeper, unless the scorekeeper
> submitted the proposal, in which case it should be adjudicated by the
> President.

The rule provides a mechanism for judgement.  Therefore, until the
scorekeeper rules on the matter, we cannot decide this CFJ.  The rule
empowers, indeed mandates, that the scorekeeper determine whether or not
an alleged Homeric quote is indeed Literature.  Since the word "source"
is open to the problems outlined above and in other public posts, there
is no judgement-free method of determining whether an alleged quote
qualifies as Literature without the scorekeeper's opinion, which I don't
believe we have in this case, therefore a verdict of INVALID or UNDECIDED
is indicated for this CFJ.  (Even if there was a judgement-free method,
it would still be adjudicated by the scorekeeper, for as far as I can see,
could rule by whim if e wanted to).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:47:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Contracka and Treasure

I create a Trinket Called "Perpetual Trophy" worth A$77 described : A
coloured shaped thing of indeterminate size made of stuff useful for
performing actions. A team of entities keeps the engraved list of
players, who have found it as part of a treasure, up to date.

I create a contract called "on the dotted line", pay the SHF and supply
the following text which constitutes the contracts content:

"
The holder of the Perpetual Trophy is bound by these restrictions:

· E may not destroy, or allow the destruction of, the Perpetual Trophy.
· E may not destroy, or allow the destruction of, this contract.
· E may not give the Perpetual Trophy to an entity which has not signed
on the dotted line.
· E may not bury it with a map that allows it to be found by :
i) an entity who has not signed on the dotted line or
ii) an entity which has found more treasures containing the Perpetual
Trophy  than any other entity which has signed on the dotted line.
· E may not hold onto the Perpetual Trophy for more than one week.

Penalty:
Transference of  A$77 and the trinket named Perpetual Trophy if it
exists and is owned by the entity who broke the contract  (otherwise
transference of  A$154) to a randomly selected player who has signed on
the dotted line other than the player who broke the contract. If the
player who broke the contract does not own sufficient A$ to meet the
penalty e shall instead be penalized a number of points equal to the
number of A$ that would have been due.

I am signing on the dotted line.

I am burying the Perpetual Trophy and an automatic sculpture as a
treasure. The treasure hunt shall be conducted as follows :

· In order to find the treasure seven steps must be completed.
· Except for step one, a step is not successfully completed until the
map writer/custodian has been informed as to how it has been fulfilled.
It is preferable that such messages have the subject: <name of map
writer/custodian> you duffus I've completed step <n>. [e.g K 2 you
duffus I've completed step 4]
· Upon successful completion of a step the next step shall be received,
except that:
i) No player shall receive the second step until at least five other
players have completed step one.
ii) Steps 3-7 shall not be released less than a three days after the
first successful completion of the prior step in each case.
· Player's shall receive this sentence when they play a map-shard :)
· Once successfully completed a step may not be re-attempted.
· The first step is: sign on the dotted line.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:33:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: AARON KEESLER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Proposal results

I have votes from 12 players now.  Unfortunately, since we have 23
voting players, this is not enough to make quorum.  We need two more
people to vote before there would be any point in releasing these
results.  Thus, if you haven't voted, please do so.  I would really hate
for people to have to resend votes to whoever the new Tabulator is.

Fortunato

- ------------------
Aaron Keesler
Lotus Notes Administrator
Intranet Administrator
Adtran, Inc.
- ------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:55:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Contracka and Treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, K 2 wrote:

> I create a contract called "on the dotted line", pay the SHF and supply
> the following text which constitutes the contracts content:
> 

I pay the SHF and sign this contract.

IB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:57:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Contracka and Treasure

I sign on the dotted line.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:11:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Duncan C. \"Slakko\" Richer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal results

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, AARON KEESLER wrote:

> I have votes from 12 players now.  Unfortunately, since we have 23
> voting players, this is not enough to make quorum.  We need two more
> people to vote before there would be any point in releasing these
> results.  Thus, if you haven't voted, please do so.  I would really hate
> for people to have to resend votes to whoever the new Tabulator is.

Unless, of course, at least 9 votes on a particular proposal are YES, in
which case it passes quorum by that route (those 9 votes being from
players who are ordinarily counted towards quorum, of course).

- -- 
Duncan C. "Slakko" Richer - http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/
Queens' College Cambridge, 2nd Year Ph.D. (Pure Maths) - Graph Theory
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Clerk of the Court

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:15:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: AARON KEESLER <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Acka: Proposal results

Yes, I noted that.  That would mean that perhaps two of the proposals
would pass.  I would prefer to meet the other restriction.

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Duncan C. "Slakko" Richer [SMTP:[email-masked]]
>Sent:	Friday, October 16, 1998 9:12 AM
>To:	[email-masked]'
>Subject:	Re: Acka: Proposal results
>
>Unless, of course, at least 9 votes on a particular proposal are YES, in
>which case it passes quorum by that route (those 9 votes being from
>players who are ordinarily counted towards quorum, of course).
>
>-- 
>Duncan C. "Slakko" Richer - http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/
>Queens' College Cambridge, 2nd Year Ph.D. (Pure Maths) - Graph Theory
>Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Clerk of the Court
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:20:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

Several things.

1) saaremaa is quite right when he says that the map may not be changed
   after it is written.  He is also correct that self-amending treasure maps
   in particular do not work, although he didn't mention that the same effect
   can be achieved without self-amendment (i.e. "Before 1/1/99 ....  On or
   after 1/1/99....").

2) JT is justified in being upset about the attempt to prevent his finding
   this treasure.  Notwithstanding the fact that the map cannot be changed
   to begin with, it seems to me grossly unfair for any player to take
   advantage of our current technical difficulties to attempt to foil another
   player's play.  JT communicated his information about the treasure in
   good faith, and was rewarded with an attempted swindle.

3) A map writer writes the conditions in his map.  After they are written,
   it is unreasonable to expect to be able to dictate _how_ those conditions
   may be fulfilled.  In particular, map writers should always keep in mind
   that the web is the resource of first recourse for many of Acka's treasure
   hunters.  If a treasure hunt involves discovering a particular morsel of
   information then it is sure to generate web searches.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:33:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 667 (risE)

Robin Hood has gone deadbeat.  risE has been selected.

Call for Judgement 667 - September 24, 1998
Subject: Another weird rule-harfing question
Initiator: breadbox (sent 24 Sep 1998, 03:52 Acka)
1st Judge: Robin Hood (chosen 24 Sep 1998, 03:56 Acka) (deadbeat)
2nd Judge: risE
Judgement:

Statement:

Proposal 3601 amended Rule 594.4 ("Blueprint: Vending Machine").

Reasoning:

The amendment in question from Proposal 3601 stated:

3. Amend Rule 594.4, "Blueprint: Vending Machine" by inserting after
the second paragraph the paragraph from Rule 594.11, "Blueprint: Bonus
Vote Add-On" which begins "While an unbroken Bonus Vote Add-On is
strapped" and delete that paragraph from Rule 594.11.

However, at this point in time, there was no Rule 594.11, nor was
there any other rule with the title "Blueprint: Bonus Vote Add-On" -
because Proposal 3601 had repealed such a rule several infinitesimal
moments beforehand.

Now, had the text instead been: "... the paragraph from what had been
Rule 594.11 immediately before the adoption of this proposal ...",
this would have worked.

Alternately, had Proposal 3601 created a new Rule 594.11 inbetween the
repeal of the original and the above quoted text, then that new rule
would have unambiguously been the source.

I think that this CFJ should be False, but I would like to get a
second opinion, so to speak.

- -- 
Duncan C. "Slakko" Richer - http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/
Queens' College Cambridge, 2nd Year Ph.D. (Pure Maths) - Graph Theory
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Clerk of the Court

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 665 (FALSE) (upheld)

The Entity Formerly Known as the Supreme Court has judged this FALSE.

Call for Judgement 665 - September 14, 1998
Subject: Weishaupt Agenda CWCFJ
Initiator: Weishaupt (sent 14 Sep 1998, 12:40 Acka)
1st Judge: Robert Sevin (selected 14 Sep 1998, 12:47 Acka) (declined)
2nd Judge: Ethelred (selected 14 Sep 1998, 14:55 Acka) (deadbeat)
3rd Judge: Wild Card (selected 22 Sep 1998, 21:52 Acka) (deadbeat)
4th Judge: Slakko (selected 30 Sep 1998, 02:33 Acka)
Judgement: FALSE (promulgated 30 Sep 1998, 02:51 Acka)
Appealed by: Weishaupt
Cortex: The Entity Formerly Known as the Supreme Court (breadbox and
saaremaa) (chosen 30 Sep 1998, 03:23 Acka)
Judgement: FALSE
Penalty to Appellant: 25 points.

Statement:  
Weishaupt has achieved a winning condition during the current cycle.

Reasoning: 
Weishaupt has three true, visible, agenda hats, with a net weight less than
his point score.

3. The owner of this hat has been in at least 1 duel and has not lost 
more than 2 duels.
Weight: 30

I have been in one duel, which i won

8. The owner of this hat is the Overlord of the owner of this eggplant.
Weight: 110

Studge owns this eggplant. I am the Overlord of Studge

13. The owner of this hat has publically posted the sine of a googleplex 
to a precision of at least three significant digits, and accompanied 
said posting with proof that the value posted is, indeed, the sine 
of a googleplex.
Weight: -200

I did so earlier today.

ThinMan's Bronze Torch Reasoning:

I see two potential positions here.

1.  (permissive)  Because the hat did not specify units, any units are
    permissable for the purpose of fulfilling the condition.

2.  (strict)  Because no units were specified, the condition refers to
    the unitless case [which is equivalent to radians].

I tend to favor the latter, principally because, in my opinion, game
custom
and the spirit of the game favor winning being more difficult over winning
being less difficult.  I don't at the moment see any other basis than
custom and spirit on which to judge between those alternatives, but I
grant
that others may find current custom and spirit to be different than I
assert.

I don't see any basis to believe that the condition can be interpreted to
mean degrees or grads _specifically_, but that becomes rather academic in
the light of position 1.

Judge's Reasoning:

I accept that ThinMan's position 1 could theoretically be valid.  However,
position 2 requires less additional meaning to be "read into" the
condition of the Agenda Hat.  As the unitless case (i.e. radians) is
perfectly well defined (i.e. the sine of a number is itself defined), I
see no need to interpret the hat to admit any other kind of unit.  I
therefore agree with ThinMan that position 2 should be favoured.

I therefore believe that the conditions of hat 13 have not been met, and
hence that Weishaupt has not achieved a winning condition.  I therefore
judge FALSE.

Appellant's Reasoning:

(none)

saaremaa's Bronze Torch comments:

breadbox and I agreed on the verdict and penalty for CFJ 665,
but were working on the final draft of the reasoning.  Since
we had arrived on the two required pieces before breadbox
went awol, those will be delivered without reasoning.  I am
using the bronze torch to throw on a very late draft of the
reasoning, though.

> My vote: uphold with a 25-point penalty for frivolousness.
>
> Reasoning: "The Court agrees with the original judge."

> I personally find this argument to be fallacious, however. There is
> simply no justification for inserting "degrees" into the text when the
> text already makes perfect sense as it already stands. This is a level
> of interpretation that is uncalled for unless the text cannot make
> sense at all when read plainly.

I agree with this, and agree with the 25 point penalty.

There is however, the argument that because the Illuminatus did not
replace the impossible condition, it was therefore possible (and thus
by implication would require us to search for some other reading of
the text).  I'd like to address this argument, with something like:

The argument that the Illuminatus did not replace the condition with
a Silly Adjenda Hat, and therefore the condition was possible, is
bogus on two counts.  First of all, if the rule required the
Illuminatus to do so and e did not, it would just mean that the
Illuminatus was breaking the rules; it would not change the possibility
of the condition.  In this case perhaps it could be argued that the
Illuminatus made an "error" and the pragmatism clause made the condition
"possible", but the rules are silent on exactly *how* it would have been
made possible.  In such case random determination would be required over
an infinitely enumerated list of possible hats.  Secondly, and more
importantly, the rule says the Illiminatus "may" (not must) change the
condition based on eir "beliefs", so the whole issue is moot.

Feel free to edit this down if you like, or post as is.

Cortex's Comments

(none)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:35:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (1-FALSE) (Amicus Draconis)

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>Cortez has taken too long.  This goes to Amicus Draconis.
>Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998

Under rule 417, I decline judgement on this CFJ as I was the initial judge
being appealed here.

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:37:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 674 (TRUE)

Leather Artifact has judged this TRUE.

Call for Judgement 674 - October 2, 1998
Subject: Mungibility of Rule Numbers
Initiator: saaremaa (sent Oct 2 1998, 10:20 Acka)
Judge: Altra the Firecat (chosen Oct 13 1998, 06:49 Acka)
Judgement: TRUE.

Statement:

Proposal 3621 was not null.

Initiator's reasoning:

It is obvious which rule is being referred to by the proposal.
Moreover, rule 340 explicitly handles this case:

> Numbers shall be considered misspelled words for the purposes
> of the rules when it can be determined beyond *reasonable
> doubt* [my emphasis] that a particular number is in error,
> and what the intended number is. The intended number is considered
> the correct spelling in this case.

This is not "game custom", but explicitly handled by rule 340.

My question is this:  Can the judge determine this with "reasonable
doubt", and then determine what number the author "intended"?  That is
what rule 340, section II, says.  We allowed to guess on these matters,
provided the doubt is reasonable.  C'mon people, "reasonable" doubt.
Acka is *not* a formal system nor a C++ compiler; judgement is allowed.
If we are saying the doubt here is 'unreasonable', what is the support
for that position?

Judge's Reasoning:

I think the reasoning prsented by the initiator is perfect

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:37:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

At 10:20 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Several things.
>
>1) saaremaa is quite right when he says that the map may not be changed
>   after it is written.  He is also correct that self-amending treasure maps
>   in particular do not work, although he didn't mention that the same effect
>   can be achieved without self-amendment (i.e. "Before 1/1/99 ....  On or
>   after 1/1/99....").

I apologize then for my illegal map and announce that JT has found "Clocks
that Bicker in Marble Ships."  The map was as I said.  I, as a relative
newbie, was not aware that this was the way game custom.  In particular, I
remembered the following treasure, which received no comment when it was
(A) created (B) found.  

"I am burying one Bonus Vote and A$100 as treasure with the following map:
This treasure will be found by the player who posts a public message 
containing the phrase "This one is TRUE." with one of the following sets 
of characters:
Either:

<CHARACTER SEQUENCES SNIPPED>

If any player posts a message with the incorrect answer, the map for this 
treasure will immeadiately morph into another of IdiotBoy's design."
- --A Mean Hat.
  Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master - Warrior Caste - Crazy French
Scotsman - Really Weird

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:38:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

At 10:20 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Several things.
>
>1) saaremaa is quite right when he says that the map may not be changed
>   after it is written.  He is also correct that self-amending treasure maps
>   in particular do not work, although he didn't mention that the same effect
>   can be achieved without self-amendment (i.e. "Before 1/1/99 ....  On or
>   after 1/1/99....").

Does this mean that my map creation failed or just that the self-amendment
will not occur or what?

- --A Mean Hat.
  Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master - Warrior Caste - Crazy French
Scotsman - Really Weird

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:39:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Duel Accepted (Bacon)

Foul A Mean Hat,

On behalf of Vynd I have the honour of accepting your challenge, that you
may be defeated and ground into the dust like the dog you are.  Though
your ineptitude at Double Crash may make that themost obvious of all
places to defeat you, Vynd is not satisfied with such an easy victory.
His magnanimous nature means that he will meet you on the field of Bacon,
that you may be cut down and humiliated more fairly.

Yours,
Slakko
second to Vynd

- -- 
Duncan C. Richer aka Slakko the Lost Warner Brother | Queens' College
http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~dcr24/    Ackanomic     | U. of Cambridge
Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator  | 2nd Year PhD(PMa)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:42:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A Mean Hat's treasure

At 12:37 PM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:20 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Several things.
>>
>>1) saaremaa is quite right when he says that the map may not be changed
>>   after it is written.  He is also correct that self-amending treasure maps
>>   in particular do not work, although he didn't mention that the same
effect
>>   can be achieved without self-amendment (i.e. "Before 1/1/99 ....  On or
>>   after 1/1/99....").
>
>I apologize then for my illegal map and announce that JT has found "Clocks
>that Bicker in Marble Ships."  The map was as I said.  I, as a relative
>newbie, was not aware that this was the way game custom.  

that should be "game custom was harfed."

>In particular, I
>remembered the following treasure, which received no comment when it was
>(A) created (B) found.  
>

- --A Mean Hat.
  Daring Adventurer -- Dungeon Master - Warrior Caste - Crazy French
Scotsman - Really Weird

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re:  Contracka and Treasure

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, John Bollinger wrote:
>I sign on the dotted line.

I also sign on the dotted line.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:55:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Duel Accepted (Bacon)

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>Foul A Mean Hat,
>
>On behalf of Vynd I have the honour of accepting your challenge, that you
>may be defeated and ground into the dust like the dog you are.  Though
>your ineptitude at Double Crash may make that themost obvious of all
>places to defeat you, Vynd is not satisfied with such an easy victory.
>His magnanimous nature means that he will meet you on the field of Bacon,
>that you may be cut down and humiliated more fairly.
>
>Yours,
>Slakko
>second to Vynd

As Herald, I announce that this duel has now begun.   I also volunteer
to referee the duel.

Duelists, send your first actrons.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V3 #361
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