Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #314
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest     Saturday, September 12 1998     Volume 03 : Number 314

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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:36:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: rule 250

I change my state to Voting.

saaremaa
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Randy Hall wrote:

> I change my state to Voting.
> 
> saaremaa
> [email-masked]
> 

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Vynd, Crazy French-Scotsman

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:38:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Frederic Mc Coy wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Randy Hall wrote:
> 
> > I change my state to Voting.
> > 
> > saaremaa
> > [email-masked]
> > 
> 
> Be afraid, be very afraid.

It will be interesting to see saaremaa's start, seeing as e has no money
as well as no points.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:54:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

At 03:38 AM 9/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Frederic Mc Coy wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Randy Hall wrote:
>> 
>> > I change my state to Voting.
>> > 
>> > saaremaa
>> > [email-masked]
>> > 
>> 
>> Be afraid, be very afraid.
>
>It will be interesting to see saaremaa's start, seeing as e has no money
>as well as no points.
>
>-- 
>Duncan C. "" Richer aka

I offer/give/whatever A$100 to saaremaa, if i still have that much (I've
been spending like a drunken sailor on shoreleave) in tribute to is mightiness

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:55:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Randy Hall wrote:
>I change my state to Voting.

Welcome back saaremaa!

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:02:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

JT has judged this FALSE.

Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
Subject: Literature Translation
Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent Sep 10 1998, 18:35 Acka)
Judge: JT (selected Sep 11 1998, 11:30 Acka)
Judgement: FALSE

Statement:
An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
accepted.

Initiator's Reasoning:
I think this should be judged FALSE.Whilst a translation of a foreign
artist bears many things in comon with the works of the foreign artist,
that artist was not actually the author and hence the literature rule
should not apply.

Judge's Reasoning:
Reasoning:
Rule 210 is quite clear that literature must:

>A) The proposal must contain in its body [as opposed to title] one or
>   more quotations from sources listed on the Literature list. This
>   quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written, uttered or
>   otherwise communicated by the source, enclosed in quotation
>   marks. It must contain one of the following:

In order for a quote of literature by Homer to be valid, it must be an
*exact copy* of words written, uttered or otherwise communicated by the
source.

Quoting from a translation of that source, however accurate the
translation is, is not an exact copy of words written, uttered or
otherwise communicated by the source, but rather of words written, uttered
or otherwise communicated by the translator.  Unless that translator were
also on the Literature list, or unless the specific translation were on
the Literature list, then that quote would not be literature.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:34:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Silliness

As a completely unmandated by the rules action, I set myself on Fire.  It
is a peculiar fire in that my hair only is burning, and it burns with a
peculiar green and murrey flame very reminiscent of the smoke given off by
some Holy Books of Chorg when they are read.

- --JT, being silly but with good reason

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:47:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

>I change my state to Voting.
>
>saaremaa
>[email-masked]

Welcome back, though I know you only be reference and examination of the
various archives.

I've always wondered what it would be like to have seen you in action, now
I get to.

Please have mercy on us  :)

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:56:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: *ping*

Today is Saturday, the 12th day of September, and the Machine That Goes
*ping* Has Gone *ping* today. Since I have been scholar, the Machine has
gone *ping* 4 times.

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:58:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Chocolate Frog (K 2)

K 2 is the first citizen of Ackanomic.

- --JT, OiCoRT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 05:15:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Harf

As harfmeister, i declare the following props harfy:

3550(Dorums)--I'm talking about dorums too... someone should make that illegal
3567(DoppleSlakko)
3570 (Insane Emperor)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:58:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 662 (marsboy)

marsboy has been selected.

Call for Judgement 662 - September 12, 1998
Subject: Illegal Brie Acquisition
Initiator: Weishaupt (sent 12 Sep 1998, 07:59 Acka)
Judge: marsboy
Judgement:

Statement: 
Weishaupt has a Brie

Reasoning: 
K 2 awarded me a brie when I joined.
Because how to gain a brie was not defined in the rules at that time, this
was either an illegal or an impossible action.
Therefore by the clause in rule 701 which states
If, however, the illegality or impossibility of a publically knowable
change to the game state goes unreported for at least 14 days, the action
or inaction which caused that change is considered legal, but it is still a
Crime. 
I do in fact have the Brie because it has been publically knowable and it
has gone unreported for 14 days.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:00:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFCJ 174 (Robin Hood)

Robin Hood has been selected.
Financier, please deduct the A$25 court fee from Weishaupt's balance.

Call for Criminal Judgement 174 - September 12, 1998
Subject: Malpracticing Financier
Initiator: Weishaupt (sent 12 Sep 1998, 08:12 Acka)
Judge: Robin Hood
Judgement:

Statement: 
K 2 committed the Crime of Malpractice on Aug 28

Reasoning: 
This is only true if I have a brie.  When I joined, no method of
gaining Bries was defined in the rules.  Assuming I do have a Brie, K 2
performed his duty as financier incorrectly.  According to rule 701,

The act of performing a Duty incorrectly is the Crime of Malpractice. 

Suggested Penalty:

Transferrence of A$100 to Weishaupt for confusion, consternation, guilt,
and psychological trauma
Public Apology of at least 2 lines

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:32:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

> Welcome back, though I know you only be reference and examination of the
> various archives.

Thx.  And thx to Slakko for the cash.
 
> I've always wondered what it would be like to have seen you in action, now
> I get to.
> 
> Please have mercy on us  :)

Don't set your expectations too high. :-)  Everything else aside, I do not
have the time to play Acka like I did in the old days, unfortunately.  Also,
they lured me back with promises of FRP, so I'll prolly be spending alot of
time figuring how to get that going, if someone else hasn't already.

Is it me, or have the rules grown another 70K since I left?  I'll be kept
busy just figuring out what is going on; please have mercy on me :)

saaremaa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:39:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

Randy Hall wrote:

> I change my state to Voting.

Welcome back saaremaa. We hope your 5th stay with us will be enjoyable.

Mr. Tambourine Man.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

Randy Hall wrote:

> Don't set your expectations too high. :-)  Everything else aside, I do not
> have the time to play Acka like I did in the old days, unfortunately.  Also,
> they lured me back with promises of FRP, so I'll prolly be spending alot of
> time figuring how to get that going, if someone else hasn't already.

I seem to recall that last time you said that you imediately came out with that
swingpoint scam claiming that since they weren' specified as entities you could
manipulate them however you wanted. Maybe if you don't have much time you'll
only be winning half the cycles now :-). I'll point out now that when a fantasy
role playing game gets underway I'd be interested in taking part.

> Is it me, or have the rules grown another 70K since I left?  I'll be kept
> busy just figuring out what is going on; please have mercy on me :)

Well, amongst other things anti-voting was repealed by proposal 3333 due to a
flury of bonus vote using, tammany bribing, people voting yes when they meant to
vote no and someone anti-voting.

MTM.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:48:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

> Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
> Judgement: FALSE
> 
> Statement:
> An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
> which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
> it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
> accepted.

[...]

> Judge's Reasoning:
> Reasoning:
> Rule 210 is quite clear that literature must:
> 
> >A) The proposal must contain in its body [as opposed to title] one or
> >   more quotations from sources listed on the Literature list. This
> >   quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written, uttered or
> >   otherwise communicated by the source, enclosed in quotation
> >   marks. It must contain one of the following:
> 
> In order for a quote of literature by Homer to be valid, it must be an
> *exact copy* of words written, uttered or otherwise communicated by the
> source.
> 
> Quoting from a translation of that source, however accurate the
> translation is, is not an exact copy of words written, 

[...]

So that means the The Bible, Old and New Testaments, falls under the same 
sort of logic, meaning that P3548 was not Literature?

saaremaa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:51:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fire

I'm on fire!

I pay the standard harfer fee to extinguish the fire i'm on

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:00:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: Fire

sorry bout forgetting the "Acka".

Piz: can i have the treasure now?

- --weishaupt

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:02:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Re: Fire

[Wesihaupt:]
> I'm on fire!

Are you sure of that? The text that you intended to set you on fire
was enclosed in notes brackets. I don't recall what our precedent is
for double braces inside of notes brackets - for the moment I'm
leaving them in the rule.

Whether or not you are on fire, however, I have ascertained that you
most certainly have Gone Postal.

breadbox
Postmaster

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:15:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Re: Fire

I feel quite idiotic, yes, tis true
Forgotten bracket, nemesis O mine
I do not know whatever I can do
But spit and squeal and frumbulate and whine.

But wait a sec (i don't quite know the rules)
Can someone help me answer me right now?
The standard harfer fee's not paid by fools
who arent on fire; Give it back? Oh wow

I catch myself on fire if i can
Then "I'm on fire" quick i do exclaim
I pay the fee if i'm a fiery man
extinguish if i'm burning. what a shame

I think i cannot start myself ablaze
If so, no second fee, this poet says.

- -Hosed Weishaupt

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:15:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Randy Hall wrote:

> > Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
> > Judgement: FALSE
> > 
> > Statement:
> > An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
> > which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
> > it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
> > accepted.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Judge's Reasoning:
> > Reasoning:
> > Rule 210 is quite clear that literature must:
> > 
> > >A) The proposal must contain in its body [as opposed to title] one or
> > >   more quotations from sources listed on the Literature list. This
> > >   quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written, uttered or
> > >   otherwise communicated by the source, enclosed in quotation
> > >   marks. It must contain one of the following:
> > 
> > In order for a quote of literature by Homer to be valid, it must be an
> > *exact copy* of words written, uttered or otherwise communicated by the
> > source.
> > 
> > Quoting from a translation of that source, however accurate the
> > translation is, is not an exact copy of words written, 
> 
> [...]
> 
> So that means the The Bible, Old and New Testaments, falls under the same 
> sort of logic, meaning that P3548 was not Literature?

No.  For it to be "The Bible", it must be written in English, otherwise it
would have a different name, being the equivalent of Bible in some other
language.  So "The Bible" is any English translation of a set of other
texts.   Also note that the source is "The Bible" - The King James Bible
is "The Bible" for some definition.  We are not checking who the author of
the words is. 
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:16:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Building

I purchase a kaa of land; that at co-ordinates N4 E6. I then build a
small building on this kaa of land called "The Lincoln Bedroom". This
costs me A$100 in total. I then offer to allow any player who gives me
A$50 to spend 24 hours in this building.

MTM.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:20:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Building

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:

> I purchase a kaa of land; that at co-ordinates N4 E6. I then build a
> small building on this kaa of land called "The Lincoln Bedroom". This
> costs me A$100 in total. I then offer to allow any player who gives me
> A$50 to spend 24 hours in this building.

This violates naming rights.  I have a trinket called the 
"Linc o ln Bedroom", which therefore has the same primitive form as your
building's name.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:21:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: retraction

i retract 3582; it was mistakenly sent.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:29:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

> No.  For it to be "The Bible", it must be written in English, otherwise it
> would have a different name, being the equivalent of Bible in some other
> language.  So "The Bible" is any English translation of a set of other
> texts.   Also note that the source is "The Bible" - The King James Bible
> is "The Bible" for some definition.  We are not checking who the author of
> the words is.

I disagree, but since I am writing an appeal of the CFJ anyway, it doesn't
matter, I suppose.  The Bible, written in Estonian, would still be The
Bible.  What it *is* doesn't change, and since a modern Bible as well as
the King James Bible are both translations of other sources (indeed, modern
Bibles are sometimes translations of the King James version), I think
the same principle would hold or not hold in a consistent way.

saaremaa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:32:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

> I disagree, but since I am writing an appeal of the CFJ anyway, it doesn't
> matter, I suppose.  The Bible, written in Estonian, would still be The
> Bible.  What it *is* doesn't change, and since a modern Bible as well as
> the King James Bible are both translations of other sources (indeed, modern
> Bibles are sometimes translations of the King James version), I think
> the same principle would hold or not hold in a consistent way.

Possibly but the bible was not the subject of the CFJ, Homer was.

MTM.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:36:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Randy Hall wrote:

> I disagree, but since I am writing an appeal of the CFJ anyway, it doesn't
> matter, I suppose.  The Bible, written in Estonian, would still be The
> Bible.  What it *is* doesn't change, and since a modern Bible as well as
> the King James Bible are both translations of other sources (indeed, modern
> Bibles are sometimes translations of the King James version), I think
> the same principle would hold or not hold in a consistent way.

It doesn't necessarily have to.  There could easily be a separate
principle for "Work" cases to that for "Author" cases.  "Author" cases
deal with the words of the author.  A "Work" title could refer to
something in different editions, possibly by different authors or editors.
(Or translators).

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:38:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

>> So that means the The Bible, Old and New Testaments, falls under
>> the same sort of logic, meaning that P3548 was not Literature?
> 
> No.  For it to be "The Bible", it must be written in English,
> otherwise it would have a different name, being the equivalent of
> Bible in some other language.  So "The Bible" is any English
> translation of a set of other texts.  Also note that the source is
> "The Bible" - The King James Bible is "The Bible" for some
> definition.  We are not checking who the author of the words is.

I don't agree. You are essentially arguing that "Work: The Bible, Old
and New Testaments" refers to every English translation of something
that is already an anthology of connected works.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:44:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:

> >> So that means the The Bible, Old and New Testaments, falls under
> >> the same sort of logic, meaning that P3548 was not Literature?
> > 
> > No.  For it to be "The Bible", it must be written in English,
> > otherwise it would have a different name, being the equivalent of
> > Bible in some other language.  So "The Bible" is any English
> > translation of a set of other texts.  Also note that the source is
> > "The Bible" - The King James Bible is "The Bible" for some
> > definition.  We are not checking who the author of the words is.
> 
> I don't agree. You are essentially arguing that "Work: The Bible, Old
> and New Testaments" refers to every English translation of something
> that is already an anthology of connected works.

Well, using the old "there are only three numbers" principle, the Bible
would include either 0, 1, or all English translations for the purposes of
the Literature rule.  Which do you suggest it is?

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 659 (FALSE)

> > Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
> > Judgement: FALSE
> >
> > Statement:
> > An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
> > which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
> > it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
> > accepted.

The more I think about this, the more I feel an appeal is necessary.  I
apologize to all if the appeal procedures have changed, and this appeal
attempt fails.

- -----

Appealer's Comments:

The key sentence for one line of reasoning, the line of reasoning the
Judge apparently took, is:

> This quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written,
> uttered or otherwise communicated by the source,

What is the correct rendering of "source"?  It is well known that in the 
modern process of publishing literature, the author's manuscript is
edited by a staff editor before going into print.  In some cases the author
has final say, but in some cases the editorial staff has final say, and for
a given work or artist, it will not be generally well known who had final
say.  This also applies to recorded music where producers add vocals to
the final mix, etc.  What is the "source" in this case.  The original
author's manuscript, or the staff editor's "translation" of that?  Where is 
the line drawn between translation and editorial rework?  What basis does 
the rule give us to draw the line anywhere?

Moreover, different printings or editions of the same work will have
different texts.  Examples include *The Stand* by Stephen King and The
Bible, Old and New Testaments.  What is the "source" in these examples?
If *any* is the answer, than *any* publication of a Homeric quote should
qualify.  It is also known, at least in the case of Plato, that scribes
at the time changed his work during transcription, even though the language
did not change.  Could this have happened with Homer?  Who knows?  How
do we find the "source"?

We could just say that the quote must be in the original language, and
forget all these other details, but I do not see where the rules *force*
us to do this, but at the same time *allow* us to ignore the other similar
problems.

I feel that the Judge took an extremely narrow rendering of the word
"source", where a broader, more reasonable rendering is both preferable,
customary, and supported by the rule.  Which leads to the second line of
reasoning:

> All such proofs are adjudicated by the scorekeeper, unless the scorekeeper 
> submitted the proposal, in which case it should be adjudicated by the
> President.

The rule provides a mechanism for judgement.  Therefore, until the 
scorekeeper rules on the matter, we cannot decide this CFJ.  The rule 
empowers, indeed mandates, that the scorekeeper determine whether or not
an alleged Homeric quote is indeed Literature.  Since the word "source"
is open to the problems outlined above and in other public posts, there
is no judgement-free method of determining whether an alleged quote
qualifies as Literature without the scorekeeper's opinion, which I don't
believe we have in this case, therefore a verdict of INVALID or UNDECIDED
is indicated for this CFJ.  (Even if there was a judgement-free method,
it would still be adjudicated by the scorekeeper, for as far as I can see,
could rule by whim if e wanted to).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 659 (1-FALSE) (Cortez's Courtly Cortege)

saaremaa has appealed.  This goes to Cortez's Courtly Cortege.

Call for Judgement 659 - September 10, 1998
Subject: Literature Translation
Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent Sep 10 1998, 18:35 Acka)
Judge: JT (selected Sep 11 1998, 11:30 Acka)
Judgement: FALSE (promulgated Sep 12 1998, 04:02 Acka)
Appellant: saaremaa (at Sep 12 1998, 11:45 Acka)
Cortex: Cortez's Courtly Cortege (Alfvaen and Calvin N Hobbes)

Statement:
An accepted proposal containing a translation of part of a work of Homer
which was of sufficient length and cited as being by Homer could cause
it's proposer to score points due to the rule "Literature" if it were
accepted.

Initiator's Reasoning:
I think this should be judged FALSE.Whilst a translation of a foreign
artist bears many things in comon with the works of the foreign artist,
that artist was not actually the author and hence the literature rule
should not apply.

Judge's Reasoning:
Reasoning:
Rule 210 is quite clear that literature must:

>A) The proposal must contain in its body [as opposed to title] one or
>   more quotations from sources listed on the Literature list. This
>   quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written, uttered or
>   otherwise communicated by the source, enclosed in quotation
>   marks. It must contain one of the following:

In order for a quote of literature by Homer to be valid, it must be an
*exact copy* of words written, uttered or otherwise communicated by the
source.

Quoting from a translation of that source, however accurate the
translation is, is not an exact copy of words written, uttered or
otherwise communicated by the source, but rather of words written, uttered
or otherwise communicated by the translator.  Unless that translator were
also on the Literature list, or unless the specific translation were on
the Literature list, then that quote would not be literature.

Appealer's Comments:

The key sentence for one line of reasoning, the line of reasoning the
Judge apparently took, is:

> This quotation must be an exact copy of words found in, written,
> uttered or otherwise communicated by the source,

What is the correct rendering of "source"?  It is well known that in the
modern process of publishing literature, the author's manuscript is
edited by a staff editor before going into print.  In some cases the
author has final say, but in some cases the editorial staff has final say,
and for a given work or artist, it will not be generally well known who
had final say.  This also applies to recorded music where producers add
vocals to the final mix, etc.  What is the "source" in this case.  The
original author's manuscript, or the staff editor's "translation" of that?
Where is the line drawn between translation and editorial rework?  What
basis does the rule give us to draw the line anywhere?

Moreover, different printings or editions of the same work will have
different texts.  Examples include *The Stand* by Stephen King and The
Bible, Old and New Testaments.  What is the "source" in these examples?
If *any* is the answer, than *any* publication of a Homeric quote should
qualify.  It is also known, at least in the case of Plato, that scribes
at the time changed his work during transcription, even though the
language
did not change.  Could this have happened with Homer?  Who knows?  How
do we find the "source"?

We could just say that the quote must be in the original language, and
forget all these other details, but I do not see where the rules *force*
us to do this, but at the same time *allow* us to ignore the other similar
problems.

I feel that the Judge took an extremely narrow rendering of the word
"source", where a broader, more reasonable rendering is both preferable,
customary, and supported by the rule.  Which leads to the second line of
reasoning:

> All such proofs are adjudicated by the scorekeeper, unless the scorekeeper
> submitted the proposal, in which case it should be adjudicated by the
> President.

The rule provides a mechanism for judgement.  Therefore, until the
scorekeeper rules on the matter, we cannot decide this CFJ.  The rule
empowers, indeed mandates, that the scorekeeper determine whether or not
an alleged Homeric quote is indeed Literature.  Since the word "source"
is open to the problems outlined above and in other public posts, there
is no judgement-free method of determining whether an alleged quote
qualifies as Literature without the scorekeeper's opinion, which I don't
believe we have in this case, therefore a verdict of INVALID or UNDECIDED
is indicated for this CFJ.  (Even if there was a judgement-free method,
it would still be adjudicated by the scorekeeper, for as far as I can see,
could rule by whim if e wanted to).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:54:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Presidential Election

Time for another Presidential Election, Ackazens.

The Nominees for this office are:

JT
Weishaupt

Reply to this message within the next three days to cast your vote,
and best of luck to both candidates.

breadbox
waiting for some campaign rhetoric

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:58:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Senatorial Election

An Election for Senator (seat Rebus 8-{}) now begins. The Nominees
are:

IdiotBoy
rufus
Mr. Tambourine Man
Studge
Aunt Froot

Reply to this message to cast your vote. Best of luck and all that.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Trinket

I hereby create a trinket worth A$25 called "The book of life", with
description as follows:

"This is a large book, which on its many pages contains all the various
anagrams of the name 'Alfvaen'."

Now all we need is a lake of fire...

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Tom Waits:Virginia Avenue
Current Book--John M. Ford:Web of Angels
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:01:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Scaremongrel Election

Finally, it is time for an Election for the Office of Scaremonger. The
Nominees are:

JT
Calvin N Hobbes
Eris
Weishaupt

Reply to vote, assuming you care.

breadbox
already jaded

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:02:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Harf

> As harfmeister, i declare the following props harfy:

> 3550(Dorums)--I'm talking about dorums too... someone should make that illegal
> 3567(DoppleSlakko)
> 3570 (Insane Emperor)

Unfortunately, only the first two of these succeed, because I had already
declared 3549 Harfy, and it is still under voting consideration.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Tom Waits:Virginia Avenue
Current Book--John M. Ford:Web of Angels
I'll bare one precious scar that only you will know again

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:03:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Trinket

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> 
> I hereby create a trinket worth A$25 called "The book of life", with
> description as follows:
> 
> "This is a large book, which on its many pages contains all the various
> anagrams of the name 'Alfvaen'."

Large font or lots of whitespace.  2520 words doesn't take up much.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:06:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Trinket

At 11:59 AM 9/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I hereby create a trinket worth A$25 called "The book of life", with
>description as follows:
>
>"This is a large book, which on its many pages contains all the various
>anagrams of the name 'Alfvaen'."
>
>Now all we need is a lake of fire...

Whew... I was worried... until i realized that it was past tense

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:18:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Harf

>
>> As harfmeister, i declare the following props harfy:
>
>> 3550(Dorums)--I'm talking about dorums too... someone should make that
illegal
>> 3567(DoppleSlakko)
>> 3570 (Insane Emperor)
>
>Unfortunately, only the first two of these succeed, because I had already
>declared 3549 Harfy, and it is still under voting consideration.
>
>
oops

can i donate money to the twits?  If so, i donate A$1

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:55:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Automatic Sculpture 2 - Mad Sculptor (Alfvaen)

> The automatic sculpture dug up from treasure 122 has transformed into
> the trinket Sculpture 2.

> The Mad Sculptor who has been assigned is: Alfvaen

> E has 3 days to describe this sculpture.

I was going to come up with something really good for this one, a Showcase
Extravaganza of the Jukkasjarvi Treasure--either that, or just go for the
traditional "It is green", but that might have been overused a bit--but
instead I'll just improvise something right now.  So the following text
(delimited by GREEN)is the description for Sculpture 2:

GREEN
"Travel from Riyadh to the Seven Hills", the runestone had said, which was
easier than doing it.  They'd be waiting for him at the Dardanelles, and
watching the boats leaving port in Cairo, so he had to come up with
another route.

***

"Is that him?"

"Yes, but he's not booking passage.  He seems to be just sending a package."

"Is it the Frog?"

"Looks like it from here, but it's hard to tell."

"The fool!  Send Tamba to follow him, but the rest of you, go after that frog!"

***

But Tamba has lost him in the bazaar, and they had apparently decided that
without the Frog he wasn't worth pursuing.  He wondered how long it was
before they discovered that under that golden exterior was nothing more
than a Brass Monkey.
GREEN

(Odd.  What was I thinking?)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Luba:Secrets & Sins
Current Book--John M. Ford:Web of Angels
Thou hast besquirted me, oh leotarded one!  The maiden be thine.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:24:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: OOps, i'm hosed

I just forgot, and now i'm Really Weird
Believe you me, it's something to be feared

- -Weishaupt

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:26:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: OOps, i'm hosed

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote:

> I just forgot, and now i'm Really Weird
> Believe you me, it's something to be feared

Oh, I dunno.
Yours,
Fo
only Wierd
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:29:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: rule 250

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:

> 
> 
> Randy Hall wrote:
> 
> 
> > Don't set your expectations too high. :-)  Everything else aside, I do not
> > have the time to play Acka like I did in the old days, unfortunately.  Also,
> > they lured me back with promises of FRP, so I'll prolly be spending alot of
> > time figuring how to get that going, if someone else hasn't already.
> 
> I seem to recall that last time you said that you imediately came out with that
> swingpoint scam claiming that since they weren' specified as entities you could
> manipulate them however you wanted. Maybe if you don't have much time you'll
> only be winning half the cycles now :-). I'll point out now that when a fantasy
> role playing game gets underway I'd be interested in taking part.
> 
> 
> > Is it me, or have the rules grown another 70K since I left?  I'll be kept
> > busy just figuring out what is going on; please have mercy on me :)

To be fair, some things have been cut.  The 1300s have halved since you
last left (at least), the 1000s have been marginally cleared up (Party
Hall has been re-organised), the Science Guild has been gutted, and the
Ackan Reserve, if it hadn't already been deleted when you were last here,
is also gone.

If the rules have grown significantly, it is due more to annotation than
to actual rule text.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

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