Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #293
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest        Monday, August 31 1998        Volume 03 : Number 293

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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:41:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gabe Drummond-Cole <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Gee, what a silly treasure

Hubert

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 03:53:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mueller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Oars (rufus)

On 8/30/98 JT wrote:
>Rufus has found the Great Oars of Ackanomic this week.

In defiance of the river gods, those who enforce conservation laws,
potential problems associated with Gaol, and general common sense I
proclaim my intent to become a Daring Adventurer by rafting down the
Ackanomian River.

I've got the raft.
Rufus must come along with the Oars.
And two others must bring... Courage In The Face Of Adversity!!

Studge

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:09:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Oars (rufus)

Mueller wrote:

> I've got the raft.
> Rufus must come along with the Oars.
> And two others must bring... Courage In The Face Of Adversity!!

I'd be willing to come along. It's about time that one of these things
suceeded. It must have been about January that that rule got created and
still no successes.

Mr. Tambo.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:09:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: List of Nominees for Silver Moon

Duncan Richer wrote:

> The Senate has agreed to the following list of Nominees for the Silver
> Moon:
>
> The Gingham Wearer's YORL poem (play of "irrigate")
>  http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/Nomic/Acka/subgames/yorl2.html
>
> K 2's P2790 "No Cigar" (The palindrome proposal)
>  http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/acka/props/prop2800.html#P2790
>
> JT's Phoebe wisdom which said MTM's shoes were blue
>  http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/Nomic/Acka/entity/phoebe.html#BM84
>
> Attila the Pun's Treasure 207 (Mu-Cow)
>  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/treasure/treasure.htm#207
>
> Agreed to by:
> /dev/joe
> Calvin N Hobbes
> Rex Mundi
> Slakko
>
> This is the report of the Commission d'Arts.

I believe that as Count Tabula I'm the Hearing Harfer for this. You may
hit the reply button to send your votes winging theire way towards me (I
mean, "reply to vote" is just *so* boring).

I sent a similar message last night but it didn't get through so if you
get twothen I appologise.

Mr. Tambourine Man, Count Tabula.

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:27:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 651 (867-5309)

867-5309 has been selected.

Call for Judgement 651 - August 31, 1998
Subject: Debunking and One-Time Changes
Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent 31 Aug, 1998 07:53 Acka)
Judge: 867-5309
Judgement:

Statement:
Proposal 3471 created a new rule.

Initiator's Reasoning:
P3471 did not contain a list of one-time changes to the rules and hence
should have been adopted as a new rule.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:30:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 652 (Robin Hood)

Robin Hood has been selected.

Call for Judgement 652 - August 31, 1998
Subject: Furniture and One Time Effects
Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent 31 Aug, 1998 08:01 Acka)
Judge: Robin Hood
Judgement:

Statement:
Proposal 3470 created a new rule as part of the miscellaneous rulesuite
upon it's acceptance.

Initiator's Reasoning:
Rule 104 states:

"If a proposal is accepted, one of two things happen. If the proposal
consisted of a list of one-time effects, such as changes to the rules,
then those effects shall be applied, one at a time, in the order in
which they appear in the proposal. (Ambiguous, retroactive, and/or
meaningless effects are ignored.)

Otherwise, the proposal itself changes from a proposal to a rule. [It is
assigned a title and number as described in Rules 301 and 303.] "

P3470 consisted of a list of one-time effects *plus* the following:

> This Aardvark is a Modest Proposal.
>
> {{[It seems odd that rule defined trinket creation would not trigger
> Treasury Bankruptcy Proceedings - as unlikely as those are anyway
:)]}}

I would therefore argue that it did not consist of a list of one-time
effects. Therefore it shhould have been adopted as a rule.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:36:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Thrall

3476: Slakko -> K 2
3477: JT -> Slakko
3478: Wild Card -> Slakko
3480: JT -> Alfvaen (bad luck for Slakko)
3481: Alfvaen -> Niccolo Flychuck

Current totals:
Alfvaen 2, Slakko 1, K 2 1, Niccolo Flychuck 1, all others 0.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:45:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Thrall

>3476: Slakko -> K 2
>3477: JT -> Slakko
>3478: Wild Card -> Slakko
>3480: JT -> Alfvaen (bad luck for Slakko)
>3481: Alfvaen -> Niccolo Flychuck

Does that mean that I am JT's thrall and Niccolo Flychuck is mine, or
the reverse?

>Current totals:
>Alfvaen 2, Slakko 1, K 2 1, Niccolo Flychuck 1, all others 0.

I thought I already had two.  If one of the above causes a cycle, I
missed someone pointing it out...

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page:http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/)
Current Album--Jane Hawley:As We Walk On Thin Ice
Current Book--Piers Anthony:Unicorn Point
Never pet a burning dog.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:18:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: Gnomesday

Vynd wrote:

>Happy Gnomesday everyone!  I gleefuly wear my new pair of dress pants.  I
>also wish one John McCoy a happy birthday, belated at this point, just in
>case anyone was wondering "Why August 28th?"

I knew why August 28th.  I also wish one John McCoy a [belated] happy
birthday.  I follow up by wishing one John Bollinger a [likewise belated]
happy birthday, and note that I would probably have voted against the
proposal if the date had been different.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Thrall

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> 
> >3476: Slakko -> K 2
> >3477: JT -> Slakko
> >3478: Wild Card -> Slakko
> >3480: JT -> Alfvaen (bad luck for Slakko)
> >3481: Alfvaen -> Niccolo Flychuck
> 
> Does that mean that I am JT's thrall and Niccolo Flychuck is mine, or
> the reverse?

The other way around.

> >Current totals:
> >Alfvaen 2, Slakko 1, K 2 1, Niccolo Flychuck 1, all others 0.
> 
> I thought I already had two.  If one of the above causes a cycle, I
> missed someone pointing it out...

You already had 2, but one of them was me.  When 3476 got rejected, I
became K 2's thrall, and so was no longer yours.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:58:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Micah Smukler)
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3502

>> Proposal 3502
>> Nameless Thing #-1
>> Attila the Pun (Micah Smukler)
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Replace subsection VIb of rule 250 with "b) All of eir tradeable
>> entities are transferred to the treasury; all remaining entites
>> owned be em are destroyed."
>>
>> {{[Why should the Treasury own pointy ears?]}}
>
>This is bad. We have had many entities that are nontradeable but can
>change ownership (through applications of the rules) that should not
>be destroyed willfully. The Machine that goes *ping* is one such
>example.

D'oh!

I retract proposal 3502.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:03:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Oars (rufus)

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Mueller wrote:

> I've got the raft.
> Rufus must come along with the Oars.
> And two others must bring... Courage In The Face Of Adversity!!
> 
> Studge
> 

One of these has to turn out well eventually.  Count me in.
IB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:21:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3510

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:
>> Proposal 3510
>> Training Regime fix
>> JT (JT Traub)
>> 
>> This is a modest proposal.
>> In rule 1390.6, replace 23 with 16.  {{[this puts the value back in
>> line]}}
>> Renumber rule 1390.6 so that it is a member of the Otzma Card Rule Suite.
>
>Urgh. I'm not actually sure that this works. The rule that governs
>automatic numbering of Rule Suite members only applies when a rule is
>being created. In fact, this *might* actually require the OiCoRT to
>randomly select a sub rule number - of which, of course, there are an
>infinite number of possibilities. (Actually, though, I imagine it
>would just be considered an ambiguous change and thus ignored, as per
>Rule 104.)

Hrm.. I missed that. 
I retract P 3150 and will resubmit with a fix.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:28:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 651 (867-5309)

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>867-5309 has been selected.

867-5309 is on vacation and thus not legal to be selected.

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:37:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 651 (Weishaupt)

Apologies for the earlier error.  I give A$1 to the Twits.

Weishaupt has been selected.

Call for Judgement 651 - August 31, 1998
Subject: Debunking and One-Time Changes
Initiator: Mr. Tambourine Man (sent 31 Aug, 1998 07:53 Acka)
Judge: Weishaupt
Judgement:

Statement:
Proposal 3471 created a new rule.

Initiator's Reasoning:
P3471 did not contain a list of one-time changes to the rules and hence
should have been adopted as a new rule.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:13:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:Vacation

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, JT wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote:
>
>>	I go on vacation for an expected duration of 2 weeks.
>
>*sigh* Given this, I am going to declare game 1 of Eleusis moribund
>tomorrow unless both /dev/joe and else...if express privately an interest
>in continuing the game.

Having heard nothing from either of /dev/joe or else...if (whom I mailed
privately), I am declaring game 1 of Eleusis Moribund.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:14:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: sdrawkcaB

Oh, and I change my name to "cimonakcA fo selur"

cimonakcA fo selur

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:21:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJs 651 and 652

I see that Mr. Tambourine Man has been thinking about some of the gray
areas that I, in the course of my job as Rule-Harfer, spend more time
than I'd like thinking about. It appears that our respective
cogitations, however, have led us to opposite conculsions.

Since these are subjects that are important to me, I would like to
exercise my privilege as per Rule 418, and have the following comments
added to the CFJs in question.

> Call for Judgement 651 - August 31, 1998
> 
> Statement:
> Proposal 3471 created a new rule.
> 
> Initiator's Reasoning:
> P3471 did not contain a list of one-time changes to the rules and hence
> should have been adopted as a new rule.

BTR for CFJ 651:

This, I believe, is definitely untrue. Proposal 3471 indeed contained
a list of a single one-time change to the game state. The fact that
that change was meaningless does not change this. Consider the
relevant text of Rule 104:

  If the proposal consisted of a list of one-time effects, such as
  changes to the rules, then those effects shall be applied, one at a
  time, in the order in which they appear in the proposal. (Ambiguous,
  retroactive, and/or meaningless effects are ignored.)

The parenthetical clause makes it clear that a meaningless effect is
still treated as an effect, for the purposes of this rule.

> Call for Judgement 652 - August 31, 1998
> 
> Statement:
> Proposal 3470 created a new rule as part of the miscellaneous rulesuite
> upon it's acceptance.
> 
> Initiator's Reasoning:
> 
> [...]
> 
> P3470 consisted of a list of one-time effects *plus* the following:
> 
>> This Aardvark is a Modest Proposal.
>>
>> {{[It seems odd that rule defined trinket creation would not trigger
>> Treasury Bankruptcy Proceedings - as unlikely as those are anyway
>> :)]}}
> 
> I would therefore argue that it did not consist of a list of one-time
> effects. Therefore it shhould have been adopted as a rule.

BTR for CFJ 652:

This situation is admittedly less clear-cut than CFJ 651.

Aside from the prefatory text quoted in the initiator's reasoning,
Proposal 3470 clearly contains a list of three one-time effects. The
troublesome text is, then, a single sentence (the rest of the preface
being notes).

The initiator is arguing, in effect, that this sentence cannot (or at
least should not) be interpreted as a one-time effect to the game
state. I believe that it can, though as a meaningless and/or
ambiguous effect.

One-time effects are worded in either the declarative mood ("Rule 505
is amended ...") or the imperative mood ("Amend Rule 505 ..."). The
first sentence of this proposal is declarative, and the remainder is
worded in the imperative. So, "This Aardvark is a Modest Proposal" can
be interpreted as "make this Aardvark a Modest Proposal" or "change
this Aardvark into a Modest Proposal". Read this way, the sentence is
obviously a one-time effect.

So, the real question is: should the sentence be interpreted this way?

Now, text in the rules is frequently declarative; however, it is quite
rare for the rules to contain imperative sentences, except when
prefixed with a conditional. The three imperative sentences that
constitute the bulk of this proposal, thus, strongly argue against
treating this proposal as the text of a new rule.

And it must be pointed out that most proposals that actually do
contain the text of a new rule can be interpreted as actually being a
list of one-time effects without too much perversity on the part of
the reader. At times I wish that proposals were required to follow a
very rigid format that avoided such ambiguities, but that's not the
game we play. In reality most proposals contain imprecise directions -
ambiguous (or missing) delimiters, vague specifications of the rule
text to be affected, etcetera. Our proposals never have been treated
mechanically. And they probably never will, because, truth be told,
most of these imprecise directions are actually completely clear to an
intelligent reader (as opposed to, say, a computer program).

And, in my time as Rule-Harfer I have yet to see a proposal (or at
least not one that was accepted) that wasn't pretty obvious upon
reading which of the two types it belonged to.

Finally, I would point out there is strong game custom in favor of
treating Proposal 3470 as a list of effects. There have been many
proposals in the past that have contained a list of effects prefaced
with "near-miss" furniture (e.g., "This is not a Modest Proposal",
"This is a Modest Idea", etc etc). None of these proposals were ever
treated as the text of a new rule.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:49:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: sdrawkcaB

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote:
>Oh, and I change my name to "cimonakcA fo selur"
>

Yah know, I'm going to deny this because if the reverse rule does get
passed, this name would then become 'Rules of Ackanomic' and I really
don't want to go there thank you very much.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:58:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: sdrawkcaB

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, JT wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote:
>>Oh, and I change my name to "cimonakcA fo selur"
>>
>
>Yah know, I'm going to deny this because if the reverse rule does get
>passed, this name would then become 'Rules of Ackanomic' and I really
>don't want to go there thank you very much.

I really hope that Weishaupt will now retract the reversal proposal even
if I'm not going to let this scam take effect.  (please note, that if
Weishaupt does not retract his proposal, I will in fact allow /dev/joe
to make this name change (the fact that I objected at this instant doesn't
mean I will do so again, consider yourself warned).  I will object to
anyone else who tries this and will now take steps to prevent it.

I create a trinket worth A$30 named 'cimonakcA fo selur eht'.  The
description of this trinket is 'The owner of this trinket may amend,
change, or otherwise alter any portion of the game state e wishes'.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:36:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Registrarness

It is my unpleasant duty to inform you that Karma has become a Non-Player.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:07:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Grey Council

Religious:
for else...if:
Vynd
else...if and EBS

for Slakko:
Attila the Pun
Slakko & EBS

for Niccolo Flychuck:
Niccolo Flychuck

for Wild Card:
Wild Card

Warriors:
for Rex Mundi:
Rex Mundi & EBS

for JT:
JT & EBS

for CnH
CnH
K 2

for MTM:
MTM

This therefore means that Calvin N Hobbes, Rex Mundi, JT, Slakko and
else...if become Grey Councilors (joining Studge, rufus and ThinMan),
the Evil Ballot Stuffers go down even further in my estimation and I
need to do another dice server randomised thing to choose between Wild
Card and Niccolo. It also reminds me of a proposal I've been meaning to
write since the Senate election before last, or was it the one before
that?

- --
Tom Walmsley [email-masked]
http://website.lineone.net/~t.walmsley/index.html
AIM: TGW666 ICQ 2925739
Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, lausajne estas rano en mia bideo.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:11:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: Blue Thing

I have pointed The Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at
JT and pressed the ENERGIZE button, giving the anagram TJ.

Rex Mundi.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Blue Thing

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Gavin M. Doig wrote:

>I have pointed The Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at
>JT and pressed the ENERGIZE button, giving the anagram TJ.

Any particular reason?

- --TJ

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:17:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Blue Thing

>>I have pointed The Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at
>>JT and pressed the ENERGIZE button, giving the anagram TJ.
>
>Any particular reason?
>
>--TJ

Not really, I just wanted to use my blue thing. I'll change it back in a
couple of weeks if you like. ;-)

Rex Mundi.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:23:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Blue Thing

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Gavin M. Doig wrote:
>>>I have pointed The Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at
>>>JT and pressed the ENERGIZE button, giving the anagram TJ.
>>
>>Any particular reason?
>
>Not really, I just wanted to use my blue thing. I'll change it back in a
>couple of weeks if you like. ;-)

I don't really care.. It might even provide incentive for me to change my
name at some point :)

- --TJ

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:49:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Blue Thing

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, JT wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Gavin M. Doig wrote:
> 
> >I have pointed The Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at
> >JT and pressed the ENERGIZE button, giving the anagram TJ.
> 
> Any particular reason?
> 
> --TJ
> 

Hooker's a good cop!

Vynd

Finds this hysterical

[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V3 #293
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