Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #175
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest       Wednesday, June 10 1998       Volume 03 : Number 175

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Dice server)
Subject: Acka: Ackanomicon Determination

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dice rolls requested by: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Rolls also sent to:
    [email-masked]

# Player: Wild Card
# Ackanomicon determination
# based on the following (using a 50 sided die):
# 1 -15: arcane trivia
# 16-20: vile prophecies
# 21-25: inner workings
# 26-30: arcane lore
# 31-33: terrorizing pages
# 34-34: ancient artifact
# 35-36: mutation
# 37-38: dark domain
# 39-39: stock market crash
# 40-41: long lost treasure
# 42-43: doomsday
# 44-44: forbidden fruit
# 45-45: catastrophe
# 46-49: not so forbidden fruit
# 50-50: ancient one
# This assumes, of course, that Wild Card either does not possess a
# forked tongue, or that this does not allow em to choose the actual
# page of the Ackanomic that e reads.  (Since the description of the
# Ackanomicon specifies that the book is already open to that page
# when the petitioner enters the Vault, I think the latter is reasonable.)
# Alfvaen

No. of sides on every die:     50
No. of dice for every roll:     1
No. of dice rolls requested:    1
No. of rolls per line:          1

     46

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Original message follows:
> From [email-masked]  Tue Jun  9 21:01:40 1998
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
>       id VAA23028 for <[email-masked]>; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:01:40 -0700
> Received: from edtntnt2-port-232.agt.net(209.115.133.232) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
>       id sma023014; Tue Jun  9 21:01:28 1998
> Received: (from alfvaen@localhost) by concordia.telusplanet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA00482 for [email-masked]; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:01:16 -0600
> Message-Id: <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Acka: Book
> To: [email-masked]
> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:01:15 -0600 (MDT)
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
> Content-Type: text
> 
> 
> #P [email-masked]
> #S 50
> #D 1
> #R 1
> #L 1
> #T Acka: Ackanomicon Determination
> 
> #C Player: Wild Card
> #C Ackanomicon determination
> #C based on the following (using a 50 sided die):
> #C 1 -15: arcane trivia
> #C 16-20: vile prophecies
> #C 21-25: inner workings
> #C 26-30: arcane lore
> #C 31-33: terrorizing pages
> #C 34-34: ancient artifact
> #C 35-36: mutation
> #C 37-38: dark domain
> #C 39-39: stock market crash
> #C 40-41: long lost treasure
> #C 42-43: doomsday
> #C 44-44: forbidden fruit
> #C 45-45: catastrophe
> #C 46-49: not so forbidden fruit
> #C 50-50: ancient one
> 
> #C This assumes, of course, that Wild Card either does not possess a
> #C forked tongue, or that this does not allow em to choose the actual
> #C page of the Ackanomic that e reads.  (Since the description of the
> #C Ackanomicon specifies that the book is already open to that page
> #C when the petitioner enters the Vault, I think the latter is reasonable.)
> #C Alfvaen
> 

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 04:26:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ackanomic: Actions

 For each and every $A I possess
 I create a trinket named #N dress.

 N is in each case
 A unique integer that
 minimises M.

 M is the sum of 
 all of the N defined in
 the names so defined.

 For each the description is that
 "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".

 And in each case the 
 value of the trinket is
 1 Ackadoller.

 I suggest that SPAM's
 Tradeable entities be
 Given to Slakko.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 05:05:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka : SwingPoitn COnversion

I convert 10 of my SwingPoints into 1 Benefyt

Niccolo Flychuck

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 05:20:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka : Entity Transfer

Following a premonition, I suggest the Church of Odo transfer A$136 to
Niccolo Flychuck. I approve of this, it is done.

Niccolo Flychuck
Founder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:05:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Plumb <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Spaceship Launch

They say it's often scary
When upon a midnight dreary
You're trapped out in the Wilderness alone.
Might a sinisterious creature
Like the horrid B-Ack eat you?
Despite these fears, I to the Wilds go.

Be strong, they always tell you:
When in such a dubious milieu
You can't give in to fear; you must keep fighting.
Giants, dragons, manticores?
I tell myself: just nameless horrors,
As I launch my Spaceship, destination: Titan.

- - 867-5309

What's another word for thesaurus?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:39:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Ian K." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Church Transfer

I hereby recommend that the Church to the Evil Ballot Stuffer transfer all
its A$250 to Koxvolio, and I accept the transfer.

Koxvolio

(I'll return it shortly, when various... strange... members have finished
faffing around with lasers)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:56:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: SPAM's assets...

 It would be good if
 you accepted SPAM's assets
 you know Slakko. Jon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:11:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Stuff

I approve Jon's suggestion to transfer SPAM's assets to me.
Therefore this happens, as rufus has approvals proxied.
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:15:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Transfer

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Ian K. wrote:

> (I'll return it shortly, when various... strange... members have finished
> faffing around with lasers)

 Oh, no-one's attempting anything with lasers.

 Breadbox kindly sent me postal last night.

 (Oh, and breadbox - it was unintentional - sorry; but it is a useful
opertunity...)

 Wild Card

 Oops: I appear to have posted not in poetry - A$79 fine.

 Oops: I appear not to have A$79 - and neither does any organisation of
which I am a member...  I must be weird then.  :-)

- -- 
Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ.             #####
http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html                  o__#######
Wild Card of Ackanomic, member of SPAM.  Randomness is us.       \'#######
Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo.  Holding the Silver Key to the Vault.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:20:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Actions

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>  For each and every $A I possess
>  I create a trinket named #N dress.
> 
>  N is in each case
>  A unique integer that
>  minimises M.
> 

This doesn't work.  You don't specify that M should be positive, and so we
can't pick K integers such that they sum to a min. if we we are allowed to
pick from the negative integers.

rufus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:28:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ackanomic: Actions (retry)

 For each and every $A I possess
 I create a trinket named #N dress.

 N is in each case
 A unique integer that
 minimises M.

 M is the sum of 
 all of the N defined in
 the names so defined.

 And for reasons that I will not give,
 Each N, and M, should be positive.

 For each the description is that
 "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".

 And in each case the 
 value of the trinket is
 1 Ackadoller.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:35:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Transfer

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Jonathan David Amery wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Ian K. wrote:
> 
> > (I'll return it shortly, when various... strange... members have finished
> > faffing around with lasers)
> 
>  Oops: I appear not to have A$79 - and neither does any organisation of
> which I am a member...  I must be weird then.  :-)

 Now, in the hopefully unlikely event that this previous attempt failed I
am retrying...

 And /should/ now be weird.

 If I am not then I convert all my remaining A$ into individual trinkets
named #N dress where N is in each case a positive integer, each trinket is
worth 1A$ and has the description "FUBAR!".  The sum of all the Ns is
minimal.

 Wild Card.

 {sorry for the interuption; I return you to your regularly scheduled
mailing list...}

- -- 
Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ.             #####
http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html                  o__#######
Wild Card of Ackanomic, member of SPAM.  Randomness is us.       \'#######
Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo.  Holding the Silver Key to the Vault.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:47:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Ackanomic: Actions

>For each and every $A I possess
> I create a trinket named #N dress.
>
> N is in each case
> A unique integer that
> minimises M.
>
> M is the sum of 
> all of the N defined in
> the names so defined.
>
> For each the description is that
> "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".
>
> And in each case the 
> value of the trinket is
> 1 Ackadoller.
>
> I suggest that SPAM's
> Tradeable entities be
> Given to Slakko.

I'm afraid this [trinket creation] doesn't work.  It does not
unambiguously specify the names of the trinkets.  In fact, the formula
specified does not produce any defined results.  The suggestion is valid,
though.

ThinMan
{{[ Proof:
Consider any one particular trinket and any integer N0.  Can the N
parameter for that trinket be assigned the value N0?  No, because M
would be less if the N parameter were assigned the value N0-1.  Q.E.D.
]}}

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:51:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Whamiols

As has not happened for quite a while now, it has been over 30 days since
a new player became Active.  As such, the owners of Whamiols(which, as far
as I can tell, are breadbox, else...if, Guy Fawkes, JT, and Slakko)all lost
one point on June 8th at 18:24 EDT.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Indigo Girls:Prince of Darkness
Current Book--Lois McMaster Bujold:Ethan of Athos
Suddenly, she died of old age.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:51:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Fortnightly Dividends, June 8th

Sorry for the delay with these; I'd actually just forgotten all about them.
:-/

Here were the score changes over the fortnight preceding Monday, June 8,
1998:

JT: 78
867-5309: 71
Koxvolio: 57
saaremaa: 52
Dennis and Edna: 51
Mr. Tambourine Man: 51
Alfvaen: 50
Attila the Pun: 50
else...if: 49
Ayla: 48
breadbox: 48
Slakko: 47
rufus: 44
Niccolo Flychuck: 42
Vynd: 37
J. M. Bear: 35
ThinMan: 34
K 2: 26
Fortunato: 25
Joe Java: 21
Wild Card: 18
Rex Mundi: 16
Calvin N Hobbes: 1
Goldenmean: 1
Guy Fawkes: 1
Hoover 2300: 1
Karma: 1
Pandora: 1
Robert Sevin: 1
two-star: 1
Horny Protoceratops: 0
IdiotBoy: -3

Dividends the same, except for IdiotBoy's which, being negative, is halved.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Indigo Girls:Prince of Darkness
Current Book--Lois McMaster Bujold:Ethan of Athos
Day++, Dollar--;

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:01:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Ackanomic: Actions (retry)

> For each and every $A I possess
> I create a trinket named #N dress.
>
> N is in each case
> A unique integer that
> minimises M.
>
> M is the sum of 
> all of the N defined in
> the names so defined.
>
> And for reasons that I will not give,
> Each N, and M, should be positive.
>
> For each the description is that
> "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".
>
> And in each case the 
> value of the trinket is
> 1 Ackadoller.

I believe that only one trinket is created by the above -- the
formula given produces N=1 for every trinket, thus only the first
name specified is legal.  [I am parsing "unique" as applying to
the minimization criterion, which would be most consistent with
typical mathematical usage.  (It is, thus, superfluous.)  If
that is not reasonable then I don't see any rendering of "unique"
in that context which is clearly preferrable over the others,
thus this fails because it does not unambiguously specify all
necessary information.]

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:05:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Transfer

>>  Oops: I appear not to have A$79 - and neither does any organisation of
>> which I am a member...  I must be weird then.  :-)

I don't think so.

> Now, in the hopefully unlikely event that this previous attempt failed I
>am retrying...

Nope.

> And /should/ now be weird.
>
> If I am not then I convert all my remaining A$ into individual trinkets
>named #N dress where N is in each case a positive integer, each trinket is
>worth 1A$ and has the description "FUBAR!".  The sum of all the Ns is
>minimal.

Your previous attempt was better.  This one clearly tries to specify each
N to be 1, thus does not specify unique names.  In fact, if your previous
attempt succeeded in making the first trinket, then this one does not
successfully make any.

Care to ante up yet another A$ 79 and try again?  :-)

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:13:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Transfer

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Bollinger wrote:
>> If I am not then I convert all my remaining A$ into individual trinkets
>>named #N dress where N is in each case a positive integer, each trinket is
>>worth 1A$ and has the description "FUBAR!".  The sum of all the Ns is
>>minimal.
>
>Your previous attempt was better.  This one clearly tries to specify each
>N to be 1, thus does not specify unique names.  In fact, if your previous
>attempt succeeded in making the first trinket, then this one does not
>successfully make any.

As Trinket Harfer, I do concur that Wild Card has exactly one trinket
named "#1 dress" which has the description "This Trinket defined to
satisfy a hat" and the value A$1

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:49:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: ick!

K2 thinks I am a member of metamorph.  I am not.  I am a member of SP
AM.

rufus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:42:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 613 (Ayla)

Ayla has been selected as the judge.
The acting CotC reminds everyone to please label CFJ statements as such.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 613 - June 10, 1998
Subject: Wild Card's weirdness
Initiator: Wild Card (Sent  June 9th, 09:47 Acka)
Judge: Ayla (Selected June 9th, 12:40 Acka)

Statement:
Wild Card became Weird at 09:15:59 EDT.

Reasoning:
He didn't have A$79 to pay the fine, and neither did any organisation
that he was a member of.

Whilst rufus has claimed that his prior conversion of A$ to trinkets
failed it was an unambiguous action - since if the N's are allowed to be
negative there is no unique minimum...

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Spaceship Launch

I give my Otzma Card Skeleton Key to Joe Java, and suggest he use it to
come join 867-5309 and myself.

Into the wilds I take myself anon
To visit a place thought to be a myth
Thus is the journey taken here begun
Leaving behind all off my kin and kith

There in the dark and silent jungle night
a silver spaceship henceforth erect
So that to a moon I might take flight
as the rules and customs do direct

I look around to see if I'm alone
For its said the B-Ack like to lurk
within the trees and grasslands overgrown
to try and hitch a ride just like a jerk

I see him not and thus avoid a scare
And thus to Titan, fly I with a prayer.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:12:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Stuff and Winsense

I reveal the Agenda Condition associated with one of my hats, thus:

17. The owner of this hat danced on the Town Hall Steps, wearing this hat,
and described eir dance in a sonnet in iambic pentameter.

Yes, I know its still FALSE.  I don't care - there is always July, August,
September etc.

I go to the Ackanomic Institute of Genetic Replication.
I buy an Extra Head mutation for A$50.
I return to Slakko's House.

I take off all Agenda Hats I am currently wearing.
I wear the Agenda Hat I revealed above.
I wear the Agenda Hat of mine with the following condition (already
revealed):

15. No message posted by the owner of this hat in the Ackanomic, Acka-priv
or Acka-research mailing list in the last 15 days contained any of the
following words: all, ask, be, because, but, game, however, if, just,
like, my, need, only, then, think, want, way.

I convert 76 of my Swingpoints into 152 points.  This leaves me with 11
Swingpoints.
I believe this takes my score to 420, one more than the Magic Number.

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:27:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: gotta beat the score keeper

I give all of my tradable entites back to the church of banna.
they taqke them.  
The Churchof banna buys an excavation permit.  
The church of banna buries all of its tradable enties as treasure.  It has
the following map:
bannabannabannabannabannabannabannabannabanna

rufus		  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:36:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Schmidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Stuff and Winsense

> I convert 76 of my Swingpoints into 152 points.  This leaves me with 11
> Swingpoints.
> I believe this takes my score to 420, one more than the Magic Number.

J. M. Bear applauds. Congratulations, Slakko, for becoming one of thefew and
proud who won two Cycles.

And Slakko's second term is about to end, which means the new cycle
will see some restructuring of the High Offices of Ackapolitics, as the
terms of Slakko, Vynd, Dennis and Edna are running out...

JMB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:04:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ackanomic: We'll argue it in the courts!

 I do create one trinket, of value the total number of A$ I possess
 with name "Use your tractors, dammit!" and description "A sprig of cress".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:16:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re:  Ackanomic: Actions (retry)

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Bollinger wrote:

> > For each and every $A I possess
> > I create a trinket named #N dress.
> >
> > N is in each case
> > A unique integer that
> > minimises M.
> >
> > M is the sum of 
> > all of the N defined in
> > the names so defined.
> >
> > And for reasons that I will not give,
> > Each N, and M, should be positive.
> >
> > For each the description is that
> > "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".
> >
> > And in each case the 
> > value of the trinket is
> > 1 Ackadoller.
> 
> I believe that only one trinket is created by the above -- the
> formula given produces N=1 for every trinket, thus only the first
> name specified is legal.  [I am parsing "unique" as applying to
> the minimization criterion, which would be most consistent with
> typical mathematical usage.  (It is, thus, superfluous.)  If
> that is not reasonable then I don't see any rendering of "unique"
> in that context which is clearly preferrable over the others,
> thus this fails because it does not unambiguously specify all
> necessary information.]

 Can I argue that in that case you are being inconsistant.  By your
argument it should produce N=0 for each trinket.

 But there are however two counter arguments:

 1) The unique refers to each member of the set over each other.  (Without
which the /minimilisation/ criterion is null).

 2) I now have somewhere between 200 and 500 trinkets /all/ named either:

 #(mimus-Omega) dress if the first attempt worked.
 #0 dress if the second attempt worked.

 This is because:

    An attempt to do anything that requires a name to be chosen [such as
   creating a Trinket or Organization] fails if the chosen name matches a
   name already in use.

 Well, they were all created (and named) simultaneously...

 And:

    If two names are found to match in conflict with the first paragraph
   of this rule, the CSRR Officer shall change one or both of the names in
   such a way as to fix the problem. Any game document or business that 
   referred to such an entity by name shall be changed to indicate the new 
   name.

 Wild Card.

 Definatly Weird now!

- -- 
Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ.             #####
http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html                  o__#######
Wild Card of Ackanomic, member of SPAM.  Randomness is us.       \'#######
Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo.  Holding the Silver Key to the Vault.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:20:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: We'll argue it in the courts!

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Jonathan David Amery wrote:
> I do create one trinket, of value the total number of A$ I possess
> with name "Use your tractors, dammit!" and description "A sprig of cress".

I'd like to point out that this action could possibly be considered
ambiguous as it's not clear whether the A$79 would be deducted before or
after this action occured.   The relevant rule (594.17) merely say
whenever the message is authored, so I believe the A$79 transfer would
happen immediately before this creation.
I also note that the P/E page is out of date so I cannot ascertain the
value of this trinket, thus would have to consider it ambiguous on those
grounds as well.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:35:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Apology and thread roundup

First, I owe Wild Card an apology, as he pointed out to me privately, his
last message which I objected to was in fact a rhyming couplet and thus
he wouldn't have been charged the A$79 for the message.

I believe that in all threads Wild Card has at this point A$0.

If his first attempt succeeded he has some (unknown to me for the moment)
number of trinkets named #<n> dress.

If his second attempt succeeded he has some number (also unknown to me for
the moment but 79 less than the number in the previous thread :)) of
trinkets named #<n> dress.

If this most recent attempt succeeded then he has 1 trinket with some
value (unknown to me, but 158 less than the number in thread 1).

If only the first creation in thread one succeeded then adjust number in
thread 2 and 3 accordingly.. Same if only the first creation in thread 2
succeeded for adjusing thread 3.

Regardless of it all, I believe Wild Card no has 0 A$.  Does anyone
disagree?

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:47:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Small thread correction

Wild card just pointed something out to me.

In his second wierdness attempt, he did specify that he was creating
certain trinkets at that point.
I believe that those trinkets might have been created, but need to reread
the messages and actions to double check that.

I believe that at some point today Wild Card did achieve a state where he
had 0 A$ and that after that point he did in fact post a message (cf his
rebuttal of ThinMan's arguments) which happened after he had A$0, and thus
he did become wierd at some point today.  The only issue left is WHICH
trinkets he actually has at this point.

Anyone else who wants to help clear up this muddle is MORE than welcome.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:26:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Micah Smukler)
Subject: Acka: I was

In accordance with proposal 3211, I raise my hand.

AtP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:54:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Wild Card's Wierdness

Slakko, if you or one of the other number theorists here could comment on
the below, I'd appreciate it.

Hopefully I can resolve the thread splits here and figure out what trinkets
Wild Card now has.

At 04:28 Acka on June 10th, Wild Card attempted the following action
 For each and every $A I possess
 I create a trinket named #N dress.

 N is in each case
 A unique integer that
 minimises M.

 M is the sum of
 all of the N defined in
 the names so defined.

 For each the description is that
 "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".

 And in each case the
 value of the trinket is
 1 Ackadoller.

ThinMan claimed this action was not validly/unambiguously specified, and
at the time I agreed with him.

However, assuming an infinite negative number (represented by (-omega)),
the first trinket above would have ended up named #(omega) dress.
Each successive creation was forced to have a unique N by the above (since
it is obviously the same N referred to in successive parts of the rhyme).
Also by the the rhyme above, M is forced to be minimized, so the second
trinket created would have had the numer (-omega+1), and so forth up to
the final trinket whose number would be of the form (-omega+t-1) where t
was the number of A$ that Wild Card had when he began this mess.

I am not an expert on infinities and infinite cardinalites (or
ordinalities, I forget which this actually is).  However, the above solution
does seem to work, it resolves the thread splits, and follows the dictate
of the action and the rules.    The only question is was N specified such
that it was unique.

Assuming the above happened, then Wild Card has A$0, and some number of
oddly named trinkets, and is wierd.  The other attempted trinket creations
would also have failed.
[K2, could you tell me how many A$ Wild Card had at 04:28 Acka time on the morning of june 10th?]

I am going to harf the situation as above until someone CFJ's it or shows up
a flaw in my reasoning, at which point I will revisit this with subsequent
actions.

- --JT 

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:46:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Wild Card's Wierdness

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, JT wrote:

<stuff> 

pick K integers such that they sum to the least interge M.  Since addition
is a closed operation on the integers(meanning that if you add two
integers, you get another integer), I can add -1 to your M generating an
integer less than M.  Therefore, M is not the least integer.  Infinity is
not an integer.   Do you need a formal proof?  I can't remember it off the
top of my head, and my notes are in a differnt state.  I will submit a CFJ
if you tell me I should.

rufus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:09:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Wild Card's Wierdness

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, David Scheidt wrote:
>pick K integers such that they sum to the least interge M.  Since addition
>is a closed operation on the integers(meanning that if you add two
>integers, you get another integer), I can add -1 to your M generating an
>integer less than M.  Therefore, M is not the least integer.  Infinity is
>not an integer.   Do you need a formal proof?  I can't remember it off the
>top of my head, and my notes are in a differnt state.  I will submit a CFJ
>if you tell me I should.

You might be right, which is why I asked for comments.  A proof would
certainly help :) My education in higher math was over 5 years ago, and
I've forgotten most of it since I don't use it regularly.  I vaguely
recall the prof talking about omega and infinite cardinality, but I seem
to recall the discussion did deal with the infinite set and integers (as
in the integer set has an infinite cardinality) and us discussing a
problem such as we have here.  That's why I believe it might be
possible that this worked.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Acka: Wild Card's Wierdness

JT wrote,

>Slakko, if you or one of the other number theorists here could comment on
>the below, I'd appreciate it.

I'm not actually a number theorist, but I play one on TV.

:-)

[Actually, I do have an undergraduate degree in mathematics.]

There are two problems with your proposed resolution.  The most
eggregious is that the infinite negative number you postulate is
not an integer.  There is no such beast among the integers.
Integer arithmetic would fall apart if there were.  In fact,
your own argument falls apart on those grounds, for you assume
- -omega+1 to be greater than -omega.  If such is so then surely
- -omega-1 is less, and you are back to the beginning.  

The second problem is that of the scope and applicability of
"unique," either causing non-unique names or being to ambiguous
to satisfy the rules for public action.  [As I discussed before.]

>Hopefully I can resolve the thread splits here and figure out what trinkets
>Wild Card now has.
>
>At 04:28 Acka on June 10th, Wild Card attempted the following action
>> For each and every $A I possess
>> I create a trinket named #N dress.
>>
>> N is in each case
>> A unique integer that
>> minimises M.
>>
>> M is the sum of
>> all of the N defined in
>> the names so defined.

[...]

>However, assuming an infinite negative number (represented by (-omega)),
>the first trinket above would have ended up named #(omega) dress.
>Each successive creation was forced to have a unique N by the above (since
>it is obviously the same N referred to in successive parts of the rhyme).
>Also by the the rhyme above, M is forced to be minimized, so the second
>trinket created would have had the numer (-omega+1), and so forth up to
>the final trinket whose number would be of the form (-omega+t-1) where t
>was the number of A$ that Wild Card had when he began this mess.

ThinMan
numerically theorizing

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:53:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re:  Acka: Wild Card's Wierdness

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Bollinger wrote:
>[Actually, I do have an undergraduate degree in mathematics.]

Fair enough :)

>There are two problems with your proposed resolution.  The most
>eggregious is that the infinite negative number you postulate is
>not an integer.  There is no such beast among the integers.
>Integer arithmetic would fall apart if there were.  In fact,
>your own argument falls apart on those grounds, for you assume
>-omega+1 to be greater than -omega.  If such is so then surely
>-omega-1 is less, and you are back to the beginning.  

Doh!.. pardon me while I go hang my head in shame.  Obviously i shouldda
paid more attention in my math classes :)

>The second problem is that of the scope and applicability of
>"unique," either causing non-unique names or being to ambiguous
>to satisfy the rules for public action.  [As I discussed before.]

I don't quite follow why you believe that the scope or applicability of
unique would be confused here.  Certainly it's been used that way in the
past for actions and trinket creations.  Note, I'm not saying you aren't
correct, just trying to understand your reasoning since it most likely
applies to the next couple of attempts.

However, I believe your first argument, and thus Wild Card's first attempt
did not succeed.

- --JT, who will be back shortly with the next.

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:24:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Randy Hall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Spaceship Launch

JT wrote:

[14 lines that had a rhyme scheme]
 
> I see him not and thus avoid a scare
> And thus to Titan, fly I with a prayer.

I don't think so.

saaremaa
neither weird nor wierd buy wired sometimes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:46:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Spaceship Launch

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Randy Hall wrote:

>JT wrote:
>
>[14 lines that had a rhyme scheme]

Umm. you only snipped 12 lines :)

>> I see him not and thus avoid a scare
>> And thus to Titan, fly I with a prayer.
>
>I don't think so.

pray tell why not?

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:49:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Last word on Wild Card (I hope)

Okay.. here we go again.  Having been convinced by Rufus and ThinMan,
I now agree that the first attempt didn't succeed.

And thus Wild Card was not yet Wierd, and so tried the following at
June 10th, 09:31 Acka (having now $79 A$ less than previously)

 For each and every $A I possess
 I create a trinket named #N dress.

 N is in each case
 A unique integer that
 minimises M.

 M is the sum of
 all of the N defined in
 the names so defined.

 And for reasons that I will not give,
 Each N, and M, should be positive.

 For each the description is that
 "This Trinket defined to satisfy a hat".

 And in each case the
 value of the trinket is
 1 Ackadoller.

I am willing to buy ThinMan's argument that this did not work, but admit to
not completely understanding why he feels that unique here didnt apply
across the names of the objects which is the only context in which that
uniqueness specification makes sense.  Regardless, I believe it created at
least one object which iscalled #1 dress.  I definately disagree with
Wild Card's later argument that he has some number of objects all created
simultaneously and for at least an instant named #1 dress.  The for each
in the above algorithm clearly implies doing it one A$ at a time.  I also
disagree with the later assertion that the name is #0 dress since it did
specify positive integer, and 0 is neither positive nor negative.

Therefore, at this time Wild Card either has A$ 0 and a bunch of #<num>
dress trinkets, or if you buy ThinMan's arguments, A$80 less than he started
with and one trinket named #1 dress.

Wildcard then (shortly before 10:09 Acka) tried to claim wierdness
once again and if the above attempt succeeded, got it, or coughed up another
A$79 and then attempted the following.
  If I am not then I convert all my remaining A$ into individual trinkets
 named #N dress where N is in each case a positive integer, each trinket is
 worth 1A$ and has the description "FUBAR!".  The sum of all the Ns is
 minimal.

This action definately didn't occur as specified for the reasons ThinMan
stated, namely that it doesn't specify the uniqueness of the N.

Therefore at this point Wild Card is either wierd or has spent A$159 and
has one trinket named #1 dress.  I am willing to concur with ThinMan and
say it is the latter case, but this might require a CFJ.

At this point (June 10th, 13:07 Acka) Wild Card stated
 I do create one trinket, of value the total number of A$ I possess
 with name "Use your tractors, dammit!" and description "A sprig of cress".

Since I agreed above to be persuaded by ThinMan's argument (at least until
a CFJ is called), then this trinket was created with a value equal to A$159
less than Wild Card had as of 04:28 Acka this morning..  I will rely on the
financier to tell me what that number is since the P/E pages are out of
date.

At this point Wild Card has A$ 0, and thus did in fact become wierd with his
message of 13:33 Acka time.

Sorry to drag this out folks.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V3 #175
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