Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #169
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest        Saturday, May 23 1998        Volume 03 : Number 169

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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:47:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: The Infrequent Ackan Volume 1 Issue 23

On Sat, 23 May 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Sat, 23 May 1998, Uri Bruck wrote:
> 
> > Otzma Cards and Gadgets are created at 0 cost. Rules can, and do, create
> > entities that did not exist before without explanation of where they came
> > from.  That's not production, that's constant nearly magical creation.
> 
> So no system that only exists on computers can have an economy?

It can. Acka doesn't.

> 
> Further, "constant magical creation" as you put it exists in the real
> world, when governments run budget deficits.  Instead of financing it by
> selling assets, governments can simply issue more money.  This money need

When governments 'simply' issue more money, then the currency is devalued. 

what you are describing is just creative book-keeping that makes RL
economy look as bad as it does
> 
> I would argue against your "cost 0" viewpoint, from an economic
> standpoint.  The economic definition of cost is not simply how many A$ or
> whatever other currency you have to pay to make or acquire something.  The
> economic definition is called "opportunity cost", and is the benefits you
> have foregone by choosing to acquire or make the particular item.

I never said it had anything to do with A$. It might as well have to do
with work expended.

> that gadget.  (Real World Comparison: What is the cost of writing a
> computer program?  The salary you pay the programmer.  But what if the
> programmer is working for themselves?  Is the cost suddenly 0 because of
> the self-employment?  Most[*] economists would say no.)

If the programmer is working for themselves then eventually e would have
to charge something to cover all the bills e has to pay, and all the other
expenses.

RL each person is engaged in a Red Queen's race for survival, and depends
on a wage-slavery system, where people are forced to hire themselves out
in order to be able afford life essential resources.

Some get more than they need and can afford to live comfortably, others
get less than what they need, and socially advanced countries realize that
society has an obligation towards each individual member's welfare.

I'm not claiming that any of these are necessary aspects of economy, but
they are certainly necessary aspects of real life, and therefore, any
attempt to compare acka to a real life economy is a joke.

Niccolo Flychuck

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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:52:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Acka: Metamorph

I approve of the suggestion made by MetaMorph member the Church of the
Good Ballot Stuffer.
Niccolo Flychuck

On Sat, 23 May 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:

> Upon closer perusal of the rules it became apparent that I needed to forward
> this entire message to the list. I don't think that this should effect PPN
> being adopted into Metamorph with the current suggested action but if it is
> (and only if the currentaction could not succeed) then I suggest that the
> Church of the Good Ballot Stuffer (suggests that Metamorph accepts Pumpkin
> Patch Nomic as a member and then approve this suggestion) and since I am the
> founder this happens. Got all that? I also apologize for wasting your
> bandwidth.
> 
> TGW.
> 
> - ----------
> > From: Phil Ackley <[email-masked]>
> > To: [email-masked]
> > Subject: Acka: Metamorph
> > Date: 22 May 1998 04:43
> > 
> > Mr Gingham Weaver,
> > a message for the People of Ackanomic,
> > 
> > I, as GRAPE and official representative of the Pumpkin Patch Nomic, do
> > hereby request admission for said body into the ranks of the Metamorph
> > party.  It has been indicated to me that the party will accept this
> request.
> > 
> > Thank you, sirs.
> > 
> > erPhil
> > GRAPE, Gourd
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:18:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: The Infrequent Ackan Volume 1 Issue 23

On Sat, 23 May 1998, Uri Bruck wrote:

> When governments 'simply' issue more money, then the currency is devalued. 
> 
> what you are describing is just creative book-keeping that makes RL
> economy look as bad as it does

Almost all world money is fiat.  The global economy is based on creative
book-keeping.  I did International Economics III, there's no need to tell
me how wierd the world economy is :-)

> RL each person is engaged in a Red Queen's race for survival, and depends
> on a wage-slavery system, where people are forced to hire themselves out
> in order to be able afford life essential resources.

My viewpoint is a little different ideologically here.  People do have to
hire themselves out, but this is providing their natural resources 
(labour, whether it be intellectual or physical) to someone else in return
for goods (or the ability to purchase goods through cash).  People are
only "forced" to hire themselves out because otherwise they won't receive
anything from anyone else - why would you give goods to someone to receive
nothing in return?

(Yes, there is the obvious charity argument - if people all act like this,
why do charities work?  The real answer probably involves some factor of
"people aren't all rational profit maximisers" and "you get some effective
benefit from feeling good about giving to charity which offsets the money
you spend".  On an economy-wide scale, though, if no-one provides their
labour then nothing (or hardly anything) gets produced.  Increasing the
amount of people giving their labour disproportionately increases the
amount of goods produced (i.e. each 1 person is responsible for slightly
more than 1 person's worth of purchased goods in most cases, because the 
marginal propensity to consume is generally less than 1).

> Some get more than they need and can afford to live comfortably, others
> get less than what they need, and socially advanced countries realize that
> society has an obligation towards each individual member's welfare.

This is an income redistribution argument.  I agree that it is a good
thing, but there is of course no need for it to actually be present for a
system to qualify as an economy.

> 
> I'm not claiming that any of these are necessary aspects of economy, but
> they are certainly necessary aspects of real life, and therefore, any
> attempt to compare acka to a real life economy is a joke.

You're right, comparing Acka to a real life economy would be a joke.  So
would be comparing most economic models to the real economy, yet they are
still used.

Acka has a system which works like an economy.  I choose to call it an
economy, others have in the past.  It fits a reasonable abstract
definition of an economy, but it is not a real world economy.  I would
never claim it to be even close - I was just claiming that it was an
economy (not an RW economy).

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer

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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:03:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Award of Arms

Hear ye! Hear ye!

The Gingham Wearer has requested and been awarded the following arms,
blazoned as 'Argent, a chief chequy gules and argent, in dexter fess
upon a trumpet gules a cock sable, in sinister fess, a rose gules, in base
a serpent in anullo vert.'

I am sure he will do honor to these Arms and to Ackanomic.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:32:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Proposal

#proposal Oldest repeal in the book
This is a modest proposal.
{{[Alfvaen's current attempt to provide meaning to this rule
not-withstanding, I think this rule is just useless clutter in the ruleset
and thus would like to see it go away. ]}}

Repeal rule 42.
#end proposal
- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:39:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal

On Sat, 23 May 1998, JT wrote:
[junk cut]
As should have been obvious, that was meant to go to nomicbot, not
ackanomic.  A 1000 pardons.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Ian K." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Duel Challenge

> On behalf of Alfvaen; DeeJay, Praetor, Illuminatus, Scorekeeper, Speaker and
> [blah blah blah - haven't you got anything better to do? - blah blah]
> Church of the Good Ballot Stuffer...

Well, what a surprise - the Church of the Good Ballot Stuffer (not even
original but a mere group of reactionaries) are agitating again.

I have been authorised by JT to accept your challenge, and require you
to convey to your most... distinguished... client that he is required to
present himself on the field of Ghost for the purpose of receiving a
good kicking.

If he manages to obtain one, let him feel free to bring another GBS with
him too - disposing of that one was just the start...

As regards challenging a member of the Church to the Evil Ballot Stuffer
randomly for actions committed by the church in unity and by its Founder -
pah! I look forward to the day when we can repeat our performance,
although perhaps Alfvaen has learned his lesson now. It would have been my
pleasure to engage Alfvaen myself, and I am certain that JT will
aquit himself in a manner clearly demonstrating the superiority of the
Church to the Evil Ballot Stuffer over the paltry following of GBSs.

Koxvolio

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End of ackanomic digest V3 #169
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