Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #89
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest         Monday, April 6 1998         Volume 03 : Number 089

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:02:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Private Collection

> It is the duty of the Curator (the Financier) to approve (or reject) these
> submissions to the Private Collection Room.

I approve these submissions, and so they occur.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Neil Diamond:Beautiful Noise
Current Book--Sean Stewart:The Night Watch
Dirty scaly chicken toes--Harry puts them up his nose.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:07:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Door Prize

In the fine Ackanomic Speakerly tradition of always forgetting for
several days, if not longer, to award the Museum Door Prize, I have
determined that it goes to Vynd again this month.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Neil Diamond:Beautiful Noise
Current Book--Sean Stewart:The Night Watch
On the other hand, you have different fingers.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:30:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Alfvaen Impeachment

I am voting in favor of impeaching Alfvaen from the office of Praetor.

                                   - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:43:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Baa

I am paying A$10 to take possession of the Little Lamb.  I could use
the extra chances to be Beldin's Tailor...:-)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Stan Ridgway:Black Diamond
Current Book--Sean Stewart:The Night Watch
I think I'll join a cult, and worship Linda Blair

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:50:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Micah Smukler)
Subject: Acka: treasure

I am creating a trinket, valued at A$100, known as "The Mu-Cow."  It
has the following description: "It is green and it is not green."

I am burying the Mu-Cow, and revealing the following, which might have
some relation to its map:

di,noy s [tp[sds; ejovj trvorbrd mp URD bpyrd smf fprd mpy gso; wipti,
yp gomf yjr <i=Vpe/

AtP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Another game of Fictionary

With this message, I am announcing the start of a game of fictionary.  In
accordance with the rules, I hearby list the players in this game, each of
whom has been randomly assigned a number.  They are:

1. Slakko
2. rufus
3. JT
4. The Gingham Wearer
5. Hubert
6. Vynd
7. else...if
8. Atilla the Pun
9. /dev/joe

Quite a crew, I must say.  Should make for a rousing game I would think.
Without further ado, I turn things over to out first Brainiac: Slakko.

                                - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:59:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Agendas

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> 
> Oh, yes:
> 
> I am now submitting a call for agenda submissions.  Also let me know if you
> still have any Agenda Hats(I think they were all destroyed, but if someone
> was wearing one it might not have been...)
> 

Here are my three agenda submissions:

1.  The owner of this hat has achieved the conditions of three other
agenda hats that are in his possession.

2.  The wearer of this hat has owned it for less than a week.

3.  The owner of this hat has won at least three Duels since this hat has
come into his possession.  At least one of these Duels must have been
against the owner of the eggplant corresponding to this hat.  At least one
of the Duels must have been called against the owner of this hat, rather
than by him.

                                    - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 01:24:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Agenda Reminder

You have about 32 hours to submit your Agenda conditions to me.  Eight
players have so far, so things will be interesting enough as it is,
but the more the merrier...

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Prefab Sprout:Andromeda Heights
Current Book--Sean Stewart:The Night Watch
Life is complex.  It has real and imaginary parts.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 03:09:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: treasure

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Micah Smukler wrote:

> I am creating a trinket, valued at A$100, known as "The Mu-Cow."  It
> has the following description: "It is green and it is not green."
> 
> I am burying the Mu-Cow, and revealing the following, which might have
> some relation to its map:
> 
> di,noy s [tp[sds; ejovj trvorbrd mp URD bpyrd smf fprd mpy gso; wipti,
> yp gomf yjr <i=Vpe/

Oi! Unfair! We don't all speak Klingon.

Yours,
Slakko
Qapla'
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:27:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: treasure

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Micah Smukler wrote:
> 
> > I am creating a trinket, valued at A$100, known as "The Mu-Cow."  It
> > has the following description: "It is green and it is not green."
> > 
> > I am burying the Mu-Cow, and revealing the following, which might have
> > some relation to its map:
> > 
> > di,noy s [tp[sds; ejovj trvorbrd mp URD bpyrd smf fprd mpy gso; wipti,
> > yp gomf yjr <i=Vpe/
> 
> Oi! Unfair! We don't all speak Klingon.

But if you look hard enough, you may find the online Klingon-English
translation software.

Guy Fawkes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:09:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: DeeJay election

Regardless of the outcome of CFJ 559, it appears necessary to hold a
nomination for the Office of DeeJay. I do so now: Reply to volunteer
yourself.

And, by the way, while I'm on the subject: The rule governing the
office of the DeeJay needs to change. Besides the little problems that
CFJ 559 brings up:

1) Rules should *never* require something like an election to take
place on a specific day. (The Magic Potato et al are bad enough
already.) It's not clear to me that it's legal to hold such an
election at any other time (as I now doing), though I think game
custom would find it less illegal than not holding it at all (which is
why I'm doing it). What the rule should do is have the DeeJay
automatically "announce eir intent to vacate" the seat on the first
day of an even month. Then, the Officers can proceed with the election
process as usual.

2) Do we really need this office to go through an election every two
months? We already have one office that rotates more often than its
importance justifies (namely the Presidency). Does this office have
any particular powers that need to be checked by a popular election?

3) For that matter, why is the office a Political office? The DeeJay
has the job of tracking part of the game state. Ergo, this position is
a necessary one, and probably should be a Functional office. The Sound
System doesn't seem to have any provisions for becoming dormant when
the office isn't properly filled.

I would recommend changing this to an Optional, Functional Office,
making the ASS inactive when the office is unfilled, and either
dropping the term limit or expanding it to be less frequent.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:16:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Senate Election

I am now holding a nomination for the Office Seat of Senator, Seat
Melvin. Reply to nominate yourself.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:20:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Phoebe

> "While you're still here then, I have sooo many questions to ask...",
> excited at my second visitation by Phoebe, I blurted out:
> Is the earth Truly flat?  Should I add Murray stripes to the Chartreuse
> Cape? Are homonyms Evil? Did Slakko commit a crime? Is it wrong to
> attempt to reshape the earth? Is black a colour? Will a player with wings
> ever be able to fly? Do you like my veil? Have you and Ursula truly made
> up? Have you forgiven me for last time? Are you really in the Treasury?
> 
> To which Phoebe replied "To answer your questions in random order :Yes,
> Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No, No, No, No."

I hate to do this to myself, but I am challenging the authenticity of
this message. The Earth is hemispherical, and Phoebe knows this. It's
not as if she wasn't around when the Vulcan's rejoined the southern
hemisphere.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:23:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Phoebe Hearing

>> "While you're still here then, I have sooo many questions to ask...",
>> excited at my second visitation by Phoebe, I blurted out:
>> Is the earth Truly flat?  Should I add Murray stripes to the Chartreuse
>> Cape? Are homonyms Evil? Did Slakko commit a crime? Is it wrong to
>> attempt to reshape the earth? Is black a colour? Will a player with wings
>> ever be able to fly? Do you like my veil? Have you and Ursula truly made
>> up? Have you forgiven me for last time? Are you really in the Treasury?
>> 
>> To which Phoebe replied "To answer your questions in random order :Yes,
>> Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No, No, No, No."
> 
> I hate to do this to myself, but I am challenging the authenticity of
> this message. The Earth is hemispherical, and Phoebe knows this. It's
> not as if she wasn't around when the Vulcan's rejoined the southern
> hemisphere.
> 
> breadbox

A Phoebe hearing has been called by breadbox. (sigh) Reply to this
message within the next three days to vote. The valid responses are:

"Phoebe would not say anything so crass."
and
"Phoebe said much the same thing to me once."

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:33:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Count Tabula Office

Well, I have two volunteers for the Office of Count Tabula, namely The
Gingham Wearer and K 2. On the one hand, The Gingham Wearer has
already proved capable of handling the duties of an important
Functional Office; on the other hand, it may be better to spread out
the work. What to do?

If both of you still want the job, then I would ask the two of you to
decide between yourselves who should get it. Perhaps you can
jello-wrestle for it or something. If this proves to be unworkable,
then I suppose I can make the decision for you.

In any case, I would like to pass on the mantle in three days. I've
begun the nominations that are already delinquent, and hopefully by
the time they are done I can obtain and release any pending election
results. I would hope that I can then appoint the new Count Tabula,
who will then handle the voting for the current elections.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT Traub <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Phoebe Hearing

Since the answers were given in a 'random' order, I cannot respond any other
way than
    Phoebe said much the same thing to me once.

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:32:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Acka: actions

Guy Fawkes wrote:

>I am performing the following actions:
>
>I am retracting my IP against Alfvaen.
>
>I am filing an IP against Alfvaen, with intent to remove him from the
>Office of Praetor.
>
>I am buying 90 stocks.

Now we all know who is the true righter of wrongs, corrector of injustices,
and scuttler of other people's scams!  Forget that veiled guy.  Look to --

	Guy Fawkes: Protector of Democracy!

This message brought to you by the Friends of Guy Fawkes.  If you would like
a transcription of this message, please send A$ 10 to ThinMan, treasurer,
FoGF, Ackanomic House of Pancakes.  Donations welcome.

TM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:51:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: Phoebe

>> "While you're still here then, I have sooo many questions to ask...",
>> excited at my second visitation by Phoebe, I blurted out:
>> Is the earth Truly flat?  Should I add Murray stripes to the Chartreuse
>> Cape? Are homonyms Evil? Did Slakko commit a crime? Is it wrong to
>> attempt to reshape the earth? Is black a colour? Will a player with wings
>> ever be able to fly? Do you like my veil? Have you and Ursula truly made
>> up? Have you forgiven me for last time? Are you really in the Treasury?
>> 
>> To which Phoebe replied "To answer your questions in random order :Yes,
>> Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No, No, No, No."
>
>I hate to do this to myself, but I am challenging the authenticity of
>this message. The Earth is hemispherical, and Phoebe knows this. It's
>not as if she wasn't around when the Vulcan's rejoined the southern
>hemisphere.

Not to mention that she knows very well that she is in the Treasury.  The
Rules say so, after all.

ThinMan
And who would call Murray stripes on a Chartreuse Cape wise?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Phoebe

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, John Bollinger wrote:

> >> "While you're still here then, I have sooo many questions to ask...",
> >> excited at my second visitation by Phoebe, I blurted out:
> >> Is the earth Truly flat?  Should I add Murray stripes to the Chartreuse
> >> Cape? Are homonyms Evil? Did Slakko commit a crime? Is it wrong to
> >> attempt to reshape the earth? Is black a colour? Will a player with wings
> >> ever be able to fly? Do you like my veil? Have you and Ursula truly made
> >> up? Have you forgiven me for last time? Are you really in the Treasury?
> >> 
> >> To which Phoebe replied "To answer your questions in random order :Yes,
> >> Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No, No, No, No."
> >
> >I hate to do this to myself, but I am challenging the authenticity of
> >this message. The Earth is hemispherical, and Phoebe knows this. It's
> >not as if she wasn't around when the Vulcan's rejoined the southern
> >hemisphere.
> 
> Not to mention that she knows very well that she is in the Treasury..  The
> Rules say so, after all.

Let me get this straight.  Phoebe knows the Earth is hemispherical,
despite the fact that "The Earth is Flat." is part of a rule.  Phoebe
knows that she is in the Treasury, because the rules say so.
Sounds like ThinMan and Alfvaen are pulling at opposite ends but somehow
both against K 2's message.  The mind boggles.

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:35:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Various judicial things (was: Resorting To Bribery)

> > Finally! We have two cortexes. Having just looked over the rules for this
I
> > have realised I probably ought to have specified which cortex any
appealed
> > judgements went to. Any appeals since the passage of Guy Fawkes' Cortex
> > proposal have gone to the Cortex comprising breadbox and ThinMan.
> 
> I think we could assume that...

I know, but you can never be too careful can you? And it certainly doesn't
hurt to say it.

> > Also (since I only need to judge another 6 CFJs to get a bronze torch) I
am
> > taking possession of the purple robe of justice paying A$227 as I do so.
> 
> Actually, you only needed to pay A$212 for it.  But I think your phrasing
> results in your paying an extra A$15 to the Treasury anyway.  :-)  The
> price listed for the PRJ on the PE page is not the price last paid for it,
> but the price that one will need to pay to get it.

Curses. Here's something interesting (ish) though. Rule 933 states:

"The value of the Robe is price that was last paid for it, plus A$15."

How much will the next player to take possession of it have to pay? Will it
be A$227 or A$242?

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 559 (K 2)

JT has declined, K 2 been selected. It appears my dice seem to like K 2, e's
getting selected quite a lot.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 559 - April 5, 1998
Subject: Winning
Initiator: The Gingham Wearer (sent April 5, 1998, 17:50)
Judge: JT (declined)
Second Judge: K 2 (selected April 6, 1998, 08:18)
Judgement: 

Statement:
The Gingham Wearer has won the most recent cycle of Ackanomic.

Initiator's Reasoning:
I can't really see it, but I might as well give it a go. It won't hurt to
try. On the fourth of April I posted a message containing the following text:

"As a further experiment I make A$10000 that is currently unowned
become owned by me. I then create a trinket called "This can't work, can it?"
valued at A$5000. I believe I may be in the museum at the moment, in which
case I donate "This can't work, can it?" to the museum."

I was indeed at the museum and so if I managed to create the trinket then I
donated it to the museum, which would raise my benefactor value to A$5000.
According to rule 850, this would cause me to win. I very much doubt I had
enough money to create the trinket but you never know, I've been wrong
before. If it is possible then it's probably something to do with whatever
isn't explicitly disallowed is allowed (rule 101).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 560 (TGW)

Eir recent purchase of the purple robe of justice appears to be paying off.
TGW has been selected.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 560 - April 6, 1998
Subject: Modesty
Initiator: K 2 (sent April 5, 1998, 21:10)
Judge: The Gingham Wearer (selected April 6, 1998, 08:22)
Judgement: 

Statement:
Proposal 2800 was modest.

Initiator's Reasoning:
I'm not sure weather it is or not. breadbox pointed out that the modest
furniture did not preface the proposal but occurred after some comments.
However, since the comments did nothing they could be considered to be
part of the proposals preface along with the modesty furniture.

Rule 209:
A proposal is considered to be Modest if and only if the author of the
proposal prefaces the proposal with the words "This is a Modest
proposal".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:36:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 550 (else...if)

Hubert has declined, else...if has been selected.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 550 - March 28, 1998
Subject: Bits of Edam
Initiator: Alfvaen (sent March 28, 1998, 02:14)
Judge: Niccolo Flychuck (deadbeat)
Second Judge: Hubert (declined)
Third Judge: else...if (selected April 06, 1998, 08:15)
Judgement: 

Statement:

Serving as an Acting Officer counts for the purposes of determining whether
one has received an edam.

Alfvaen's Reasoning:

I'm pretty sure about this, but I'd rather clear it up now just in case.
(I just went through and recounted, and realized I'd skipped the Acting
Officers before.)

Rule 611 states:

   A player receives an edam if e has held five offices (not including
   Capital Offices) since the adoption of this rule, or the most recent
   destruction of a cheese of this type belonging to this player, or the
   players most recent impeachment; whichever is the most recent.

The question is whether an Acting Officer is "holding" an office.  I
believe that Rule 401 reads this way, since it refers with fair consistency
to "holding a seat in an Acting capacity".

However, Section (vi)b) says "When a Player's Term expires, he is no longer
considered to be holding the Office.  The player performs the Office in an
'Acting' role until the Seat is filled..."

So the Rules are slightly ambiguous on the matter.  (Whichever way it is
decided, the CSRR should clear up Rule 401 so it's all one way or the
other, methinks...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:55:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka:  cfj list

I take myself off of the cfj ineligibliity list.

rufus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:46:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alexandre Owen Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Auction results

JT has submitted the highest bid in the auction for the Owner's Manual
to the Curious Clock of Uesticlox. E receives the trinket and I receive
74A$ in exchange. (A value, I may note, only slightly below the combined
value of the treasure and the Owner's Manual.)

**two-star

Ya know, I like this business. I wonder how many times I can pull this
off. (which is not to imply that I lied when I said that the owner's
manual may be of use, but I certainly didn't say it would allow one to
automatically find the treasure.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:52:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alexandre Owen Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFCJ 160 (two-star)

I accept CFCJ 160

**two-star

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:53:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2830

> > If the B-Ack hears a player then the player will be treated as if e is
hosed
> > as by a BWG laser for as long as e remains in the wilds or twenty-four
hours,
> > whichever is shorter. 
> 
> Doesn't this make it easy to avoid Hosure if you are in the wilds by
> choice and can leave at any time?  The B-Ack should go on a city rampage
> and chase you for a full twenty-four hours IMHO.

Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn. I meant longer, not shorter. I retract proposal
2830.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFCJ 160 (two-star)

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Alexandre Owen Muniz wrote:

> I accept CFCJ 160

You don't need to anymore.  Acceptances are now automatic.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:01:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFCJ 160 (two-star)

> I accept CFCJ 160

Unfortunately, I was mistaken in assigning this to you since you are not
currently active (as Slakko pointed out) which means you'll have to wait a
bit before you judge your next CFJ.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:06:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 561 (TGW)

The Gingham Wearer has been selected once again.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 561 - April 6, 1998
Subject: Modesty
Initiator: Slakko (sent April 6, 1998, 08:58)
Judge: The Gingham Wearer (selected April 6, 1998, 15:04)
Judgement: 

Statement:
Proposal 2841 is invalid.

Slakko's Reasoning:
The game effect that Proposal 2840 and Proposal 2841 have are
substantially similar, Proposal 2841 was distributed after Proposal 2840,
and Proposal 2840 is still under voting consideration.  Therefore, by Rule
309, Proposal 2841 is invalid.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 16:43:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 561 (TRUE)

This has been judged TRUE

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 561 - April 6, 1998
Subject: Modesty
Initiator: Slakko (sent April 6, 1998, 08:58)
Judge: The Gingham Wearer (selected April 6, 1998, 15:04)
Judgement: TRUE

Statement:
Proposal 2841 is invalid.

Slakko's Reasoning:
The game effect that Proposal 2840 and Proposal 2841 have are
substantially similar, Proposal 2841 was distributed after Proposal 2840,
and Proposal 2840 is still under voting consideration.  Therefore, by Rule
309, Proposal 2841 is invalid.

Judge's Reasoning:
Basically, I agree with the initiator's reasoning. Although I am unsure that
the effects that the two proposals would have on the game state are
identical, I do believe they are substantially similar. My only worry was to
whether or not the longer description in proposal 2840 might not have the
desired effect, but I can see no reason why this should be the case, so
proposal 2841 is indeed invalid.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:00:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 553 (TRUE)

>> ----------
>> From: 	Tom Walmsley[SMTP:[email-masked]]
>> Sent: 	Saturday, April 04, 1998 4:38:50 PM
>> To: 	[email-masked]
>> Subject: 	Re: Acka: CFJ 553 (TRUE)
>> Auto forwarded by a Rule
>> 
>> But the case is not that ownership is being transferred, but that entities
>> are becoming unowned, and thus going into the Treasury.  When Churches
>became
>> Cults(before Cults were given explicit existence by the Rules), their
>> possessions reverted to the Treasury.  I think this is what should happen
>> with Orgs that owned Gadgets.
>
>I don't really agree here but the rest of you know much more game-custom than
>I do so you're probably right. Although I will point out that rule 500 (IIRC)
>says that entities may only be manipulated as described in the rules. If
>making something unowned isn't manipulation then I don't know what is. As a
>bit of an experiment I make A$100 currently belonging to Alfvaen become
>unowned. As a further experiment I make A$10000 that is currently unowned
>become owned by me. I then create a trinket called "This can't work, can it?"
>valued at A$5000. I believe I may be in the museum at the moment, in which
>case I donate "This can't work, can it?" to the museum. If I'm not there at
>the moment then I'll just have to wait 'till we've all stopped mourning the
>passing of Red Barn.

We have a little thing in Acka called the Game State.  Some of you may have
heard of it.  For those who haven't, do look at rule 101 to see the
restrictions placed on game-state modification.  Ownership of A$ and gadgets
both are aspects of the game state, and the game state may only be changed as
described in the rules.  It is certain that for this reason the "This can't
work, can it?" creation failed for lack of cash.  It is not as firm a case,
but I am inclined to believe that this does indeed prevent Political Parties
from losing possession of their gadgets under the current rules as well.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:01:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thierry Joffrain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Party: Harf: New Member & Swinger

Koxvolio has indicated his intention to join the Harf Party and we welcome
him. Since we do not have a swinger and he is also interested in this, he
gets the job.

CnH

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:04:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 550 (FALSE)

else...if has judged this FALSE.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 550 - March 28, 1998
Subject: Bits of Edam
Initiator: Alfvaen (sent March 28, 1998, 02:14)
Judge: Niccolo Flychuck (deadbeat)
Second Judge: Hubert (declined)
Third Judge: else...if (selected April 06, 1998, 08:15)
Judgement: FALSE

Statement:
Serving as an Acting Officer counts for the purposes of determining whether
one has received an edam.

Alfvaen's Reasoning:
I'm pretty sure about this, but I'd rather clear it up now just in case.
(I just went through and recounted, and realized I'd skipped the Acting
Officers before.)

Rule 611 states:

   A player receives an edam if e has held five offices (not including
   Capital Offices) since the adoption of this rule, or the most recent
   destruction of a cheese of this type belonging to this player, or the
   players most recent impeachment; whichever is the most recent.

The question is whether an Acting Officer is "holding" an office.  I
believe that Rule 401 reads this way, since it refers with fair consistency
to "holding a seat in an Acting capacity".

However, Section (vi)b) says "When a Player's Term expires, he is no longer
considered to be holding the Office.  The player performs the Office in an
'Acting' role until the Seat is filled..."

So the Rules are slightly ambiguous on the matter.  (Whichever way it is
decided, the CSRR should clear up Rule 401 so it's all one way or the
other, methinks...)

Judge's Reasoning:
	Alvaen answers his own question.  Rule 401 explicitly says "he is
no longer considered to be holding the Office."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:15:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 553 (TRUE)

Niccolo Flychuck wrote:
>I never claimed that they become unowned, or destroyed. I argue that the
>rule makes them impossible to be owned by a Party, and therefore they are
>no longer owned.

I was getting ready to write a response noting what I would call a conflict
between the first and second sentences above when I got an acute sense of
deja vu.  I remember a heated argument that revolved around "being" and
"becoming."  Now it's getting clearer -- it was the debate about the
original form of the "More than Human" organizational power.  As I recall,
Niccolo wanted to try to get Pumpkin Patch Nomic to be a member of
Metamorph (this was back in the days when the Orange Menace was in the
rules).  He created the "More than Human" organizational power, which might
have allowed PPN to _be_ a member of metamorph, but which made no special
provision for it to become one.  Niccolo argued that the permissibility
of the state change was implicit in the final state being allowed; I
argued that it was not.  (It is thus evident that Niccolo is not a
physicist.  :-)  Of course, I'm not either.)

Aha, here it is -- CFJ 473.  The Court ruled in favor of my position,
although it did not specifically sanction my reasoning.  It's reasoning
shows, however, that the Court supported my point that the rules
were required to provide an applicable means, and that that means was
required to be exercised in order to effect the specific game state
change Niccolo desired.

The present case seems to be the flip side of the coin.  Political parties
are no longer permitted to own gadgets, but the rules as currently
constituted provide no pathway for the game state to be changed so as to
cause the parties to cease owning the relevant gadgets.  Niccolo's
original argument may be stronger here, or at least more intuitively
satisfying, because we are now talking about going from an illegal state
to a legal one.  On the other hand, the rules are at least as strict now, 
if not more so, about how the game state may be changed.  The rules do not
now, and never have, described how the gadgets owned by political parties
at the time of Niccolo's recent organization reorg are/were to cease to be
owned by the parties, nor what should become of them.  Niccolo seems to
argue that such description is unnecessary, whereas TGW implicitly argues
in his Judgement that it is.

I will not enter any further into the debate at this point, but I do note
that this is an excellent chance to nail down an aspect of game state
change that has heretofore been unclear.

ThinMan
Bucking for TMBSG membership

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Acka: CFJ 559 (JT)

One other thing: although the custom implied by it has long since been superceded,
enquiring minds may want to look at CFJ 113 to compare TGW's recent win attempt to
the very first win attempt in Ackanomic, executed by Wayne in the spring of
Ackanomic's first year.  The venerable and much-cited CFJ 113 contains the details
of the shooting down of this attempt.  Ackanomic's first IN win utilized a
remarkably similar strategy, with happily different results.

ThinMan
Feeling sleepy.
May be gigantic.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:30:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Acka: CFJ 550 (FALSE)

>Call For Judgement 550 - March 28, 1998

>Statement:
>Serving as an Acting Officer counts for the purposes of determining whether
>one has received an edam.
>
>Alfvaen's Reasoning:

[...]

>The question is whether an Acting Officer is "holding" an office.  I
>believe that Rule 401 reads this way, since it refers with fair consistency
>to "holding a seat in an Acting capacity".
>
>However, Section (vi)b) says "When a Player's Term expires, he is no longer
>considered to be holding the Office.  The player performs the Office in an
>'Acting' role until the Seat is filled..."
>
[...]
>
>Judge's Reasoning:
>	Alvaen answers his own question.  Rule 401 explicitly says "he is
>no longer considered to be holding the Office."

I sure wish a more full consideration of the matter had been rendered by
the judge.  The fact of the matter is that the section from which else...if
decided to derive his verdict applies only to the case of a player's term
of office expiring, whereas there are other (and more common) ways by which
R 401 specifically says that a player "holds" an office in an acting
capacity.  The case is by no means clear cut.  Is else...if wrong?  I don't
know.  And that's the point.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:51:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 553 (TRUE)

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, John Bollinger wrote:

> 
> provision for it to become one.  Niccolo argued that the permissibility
> of the state change was implicit in the final state being allowed; I
> argued that it was not.  (It is thus evident that Niccolo is not a
> physicist.  :-) 
Or a computer scientist, either.  `

> 
> Aha, here it is -- CFJ 473.  The Court ruled in favor of my position,
> although it did not specifically sanction my reasoning.  It's reasoning
> shows, however, that the Court supported my point that the rules
> were required to provide an applicable means, and that that means was
> required to be exercised in order to effect the specific game state
> change Niccolo desired.
> 
> The present case seems to be the flip side of the coin.  Political parties
> are no longer permitted to own gadgets, but the rules as currently
> constituted provide no pathway for the game state to be changed so as to
> cause the parties to cease owning the relevant gadgets.  Niccolo's
> original argument may be stronger here, or at least more intuitively
> satisfying, because we are now talking about going from an illegal state
> to a legal one.  On the other hand, the rules are at least as strict now, 
> if not more so, about how the game state may be changed.  The rules do not
> now, and never have, described how the gadgets owned by political parties
> at the time of Niccolo's recent organization reorg are/were to cease to be
> owned by the parties, nor what should become of them.  Niccolo seems to
> argue that such description is unnecessary, whereas TGW implicitly argues
> in his Judgement that it is.

 
 To me, it is pretty clear the orgs can't own gadgets: the rules say so. 
 What happened to gadgets that were owned byh orgs prior to the re-org is
  clear.  Looking at rule 505 section II: "The Treasury is
 a named, unownable entity that serves as a storing house for entities
 that belong to no Player, except for those entities for which the rules
 explicitly state are not in (or considered to be in) the Treasury. Items
 owned by the Treasury are said to be \"in the Treasury\", and they may
 not be manipulated in any way except as explicitly allowed by the Rules.
 ", unless the old org rules said that orgs which owned gadgets were not
in the treasury, they should still be there right?  

rufus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:52:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 559 (JT)

> One other thing: although the custom implied by it has long since been
superceded,
> enquiring minds may want to look at CFJ 113 to compare TGW's recent win
attempt to
> the very first win attempt in Ackanomic, executed by Wayne in the spring of
> Ackanomic's first year.  The venerable and much-cited CFJ 113 contains the
details
> of the shooting down of this attempt.  Ackanomic's first IN win utilized a
> remarkably similar strategy, with happily different results.

Well I'd hardly describe it as a win attempt. I just thought I may as well
give it a go. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, sort of thing. Perhaps a more
pertinent example would be Malenkai's recent attempted swingpoint win which
the supreme court recently returned a verdict on. I can't remember the number
though.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:05:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Treasure found

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> > Rather sooner than I had hoped my most recent treasure (one automatic
> > sculpture) has been found by Rex Mundi.
> 
> Upon rereading the Blueprint, it seems to me that the newly created
> Sculpture should be called "Sculpture 7", since the original Sculpture 7
> (which, as I recall, was green)was destroyed.
> 
> Hubert has been chosen as its Mad Sculptor.

With about five hours left in the clock, I provide the following
description, since my original idea was taken by Attila the Pun in eir
Mu-Cow description:

"Due to a bug in its self-carving algorithm, Sculpture 7 continually
recarves itself into an exact replication in 1/42nd scale of its
immediate surroundings, including itself recursively.  Since the
propagation time for the recarving is on the order of a couple dozen
milliseconds per iteration, it's fun to run through the house really fast
and watch the sculpture try to keep up."

- -Hubert

Mary had a little lamb....and Mulder was determined to find out why. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:30:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Party: Harf: New Member & Swinger

> Koxvolio has indicated his intention to join the Harf Party and we
> welcome him. Since we do not have a swinger and he is also
> interested in this, he gets the job.

Does Harf have an open membership policy? Or does Calvin N Hobbes have
the ability to grant membership? Or have the other three members of
Harf all proxied their approval?

breadbox

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V3 #89
******************************