Subject: ackanomic digest V3 #56
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest       Wednesday, March 11 1998       Volume 03 : Number 056

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:37:36 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Observer

Another former player has asked to rejoin Ackanomic as an observer.
In this case, it is Micah Smukler, formerly known as Atilla the Pun,
now at [email-masked].

Hopefully things pick up soon so e won't fall asleep...:-)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Music--Tchaikovsky:Symphonie Fantasia, Op. 32
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
I took an IQ test.  The results were negative.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:56:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Mitchell Harding <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: What is the world coming to?

I just discovered the truly disturbing fact that the entire "HTML Primer
for Ackanomic" provided on the Ackanomic web page does not contain the word
"harf".

Robert Sevin
<http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~mitcharf/>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:01:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: What is the world coming to?

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Mitchell Harding wrote:

> I just discovered the truly disturbing fact that the entire "HTML Primer
> for Ackanomic" provided on the Ackanomic web page does not contain the word
> "harf".

Haven't you heard of Harfy Typing Modified Language? 

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:41:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Announce: Imperial Nomic #28 (fwd)

Got this message the other day - in case anyone is interested.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:16:38 EST
From: Joel Ricker <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Imperial Nomic #28

Imperial Nomic Number 28 is now open for play!

http://www.angelfire.com/nc/ImperialNomic/

Please pass the word :-)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 03:56:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ackanomic: Church Policy Revealed (banna)

I have been authorised by Hibert, Founder of the Church of banna, to
reveal the following portion of Church Policy:

> It is Iconoclasm for a member of the Church who has been a player of
> Ackanomic for less than 3 weeks to change locations, unless they have paid to
> the church a penalty of A$30000."

Yours,
Slakko
Priest of the Church of banna

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:01:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: BPH 104 Results

It was obviously in violation! was the verdict.

Votes:

Violation:
Slakko
TGW
Wild Card
else...if
Rex Mundi
Rex Mundi's EBS
Hibert
Fortunato 
Hubert

Correct:
Alfvaen

So Wild Card is tarred and feathered, and sent to the Wilds!

That means e has paid A$30,000 to the Church of banna, involuntarily, to
avoid Iconoclasm, as this payment must have happened before e moved
locations (the movement of locations is what created the iconoclasm, not
the lack of payment).

I suggest the Church of banna transfer A$5000 to each of its members.

Yours,
Slakko
Scammer

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:35:03 -0500 (EST)
From: AARON KEESLER <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Acka: Big White Gazette

Just a note:  There are two other sequels to Hyperion, Endymion and The
Rise of Endymion.  I haven't been able to read the fourth one yet, but
friends of mine have raved about it.  The third was incredible.  All in
all, one of my favorite series.

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	[email-masked] [SMTP:[email-masked]]
>Sent:	Tuesday, March 10, 1998 8:49 PM
>To:	[email-masked]
>Subject:	Acka: Big White Gazette
>
>
>           Alfvaen's Top And Bottom Books of 1997
>
>Here, once again, is my Top and Bottom books of 1997.  These are the best
>and worst books(in my opinion, of course)that I read last year; this time
>I have nine of each.
>
>Alfvaen's Top Nine Books of 1997
>
>1. Dan Simmons: Hyperion.  This is not your average book.  For one thing,
>it's almost more of a series of linked short stories than a novel.
>For another thing, you need to read the sequel, _The Fall of Hyperion_,
>to find out what actually happens.  But it's well worth it.  The stories
>are those told among each other by a group of pilgrims who are going to
>the frontier planet of Hyperion(a planet with many oddnesses about it,
>including a death-dealing creature called the Shrike)in an attempt
>to somehow stave off an invasion.  Or are they?  The stories vary
>wildly among themselves, but overall begin to paint a picture which
>is beginning to come clear by the end of the book(and comes into full
>colour in the sequel).  A deserved award winner.
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:32:22 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Acka: Big White Gazette

>1. Dan Simmons: Hyperion.  This is not your average book.  For one thing,
>it's almost more of a series of linked short stories than a novel.
>For another thing, you need to read the sequel, _The Fall of Hyperion_,
>to find out what actually happens.  But it's well worth it.  The stories
>are those told among each other by a group of pilgrims who are going to
>the frontier planet of Hyperion(a planet with many oddnesses about it,
>including a death-dealing creature called the Shrike)in an attempt
>to somehow stave off an invasion.  Or are they?  The stories vary
>wildly among themselves, but overall begin to paint a picture which
>is beginning to come clear by the end of the book(and comes into full
>colour in the sequel).  A deserved award winner.

I definately second Alfvaen's recommendation on this one.  As Alfvaen
described, it is a framed tale (ala the Canterbury Tales), but is unusual
in that because all of the sub-stories are related to each other and to
the framing storyline.  The sequel is a decent choice, too, especially
if you want to find out how the whole thing turns out.

It just goes to show how much less reading (or bookstore browsing) I do
any more, however, that I have not read any of Alfvaen's other selections.
Indeed, have not even heard of most of them.  Sigh.

ThinMan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:44:01 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Big White Gazette

> Just a note:  There are two other sequels to Hyperion, Endymion and The
> Rise of Endymion.  I haven't been able to read the fourth one yet, but
> friends of mine have raved about it.  The third was incredible.  All in
> all, one of my favorite series.

I do have _Endymion_, but haven't read it yet, there being a thousand or
so other unread books competing for my attention.  You know how it is...
And _The Rise of Endymion_ isn't out in paperback yet.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--The Offspring:Gone Away
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
Sympathy, luxury, somebody will take you there

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:48:15 -0500 (EST)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: gumball

Today is Wednesday 11 March 1998, the second wednesday of the month, and I
am chewing the gumball.  It tastes of scam.

hibert, soon to be rufus again.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:59:17 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

> So Wild Card is tarred and feathered, and sent to the Wilds!

> That means e has paid A$30,000 to the Church of banna, involuntarily, to
> avoid Iconoclasm, as this payment must have happened before e moved
> locations (the movement of locations is what created the iconoclasm, not
> the lack of payment).

> I suggest the Church of banna transfer A$5000 to each of its members.

Rule 1301 says "It is impermissible for a Player to take a game action
which constitutes Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which
would not constitute Iconoclasm."  However, this does not include _not_
taking a game action, just because taking that action would also prevent
Iconoclasm.  So Wild Card may be guilty of Iconoclasm, but e is not forced
to pay money to the Church of banna to avoid it.

And Rule 510 still steps in to prevent Wild Card from being able to do it
voluntarily.

Church Policy is thus weaker than the Rules.  If Rule 1308 said that upon
being tarred and feathered a player must pay A$30,000 to eir Church, then
that would take effect.  But Church Policy is only empowered to dictate
actions that _cannot_ be performed by church members, not actions that
_must_ be performed.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--The Offspring:Gone Away
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
New farm hand (picking just six quinces) proves strong but lazy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:08:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> That means e has paid A$30,000 to the Church of banna, involuntarily, to
> avoid Iconoclasm, as this payment must have happened before e moved
> locations (the movement of locations is what created the iconoclasm, not
> the lack of payment).

The Rules regarding Iconoclasm say that one cannot voluntarily commit it,
NOT that a person shall take any involuntary actions necessary to prevent
it.  In this case, this means that the player in question was moved
involuntarily to the Wilds, and in doing so involuntarily became an
Inconoclast (by inaction, since e failed to make the action of paying
A$30000).

It is impossible to commit an action that constitutes Iconoclasm, and the
player in question committed no actions -- the game state did it to him.

GF

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:10:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> Church Policy is thus weaker than the Rules.  If Rule 1308 said that upon
> being tarred and feathered a player must pay A$30,000 to eir Church, then
> that would take effect.  But Church Policy is only empowered to dictate
> actions that _cannot_ be performed by church members, not actions that
> _must_ be performed.

I would modify that a little.  Church Policy can require members to take
actions.  It, however, has no power to cause them to obey -- they simply
become Iconoclasts if they do not.

GF

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:42:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> 
> > So Wild Card is tarred and feathered, and sent to the Wilds!
> 
> > That means e has paid A$30,000 to the Church of banna, involuntarily, to
> > avoid Iconoclasm, as this payment must have happened before e moved
> > locations (the movement of locations is what created the iconoclasm, not
> > the lack of payment).
> 
> > I suggest the Church of banna transfer A$5000 to each of its members.
> 
> Rule 1301 says "It is impermissible for a Player to take a game action
> which constitutes Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which
> would not constitute Iconoclasm."  However, this does not include _not_
> taking a game action, just because taking that action would also prevent
> Iconoclasm.  So Wild Card may be guilty of Iconoclasm, but e is not forced
> to pay money to the Church of banna to avoid it.

The game action which constitutes Iconoclasm is moving.
There is a legal alternative - an involuntary payment of A$30000.
So why doesn't this happen - he is not committing Iconoclasm through
inaction, but through the action of changing locations.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:08:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Guy Fawkes wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
> 
> > That means e has paid A$30,000 to the Church of banna, involuntarily, to
> > avoid Iconoclasm, as this payment must have happened before e moved
> > locations (the movement of locations is what created the iconoclasm, not
> > the lack of payment).
> 
> The Rules regarding Iconoclasm say that one cannot voluntarily commit it,
> NOT that a person shall take any involuntary actions necessary to prevent
> it.  In this case, this means that the player in question was moved
> involuntarily to the Wilds, and in doing so involuntarily became an
> Inconoclast (by inaction, since e failed to make the action of paying
> A$30000).

The relevant rule on Iconoclasm is:

c. A Player who disobeys the Church Policy of a Church of which he or she
is a member is guilty of Iconoclasm, which is a Crime. It is
impermissible for a Player to take a game action which constitutes
Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which would not
constitute
Iconoclasm. [That is, Iconoclasm normally doesn't happen unless there is
no alternative. It is possible for a player to commit Iconoclasm by
inaction, though.] 

The first question is: What is the status of the move to the wilds of Wild
Card?  Is it a game action?  What _is_ a game action, anyway?  No rule
defines what constitutes a game action in general - the Gaol rule says
anything on its list is a game action, but explicitly states that this is
a subset of all possible game actions.  Does a game action include
something which is done involuntarily by a player?

Being part of a political party that gets a unity vote is a Voting Action
(note - I am not saying voting actions are necessarily game actions, but
given the lack of definition of game actions it would appear that as
people vote within the game, voting actions are game actions).  However, a
player can be non-voting and yet part of such a party - that player did
not make any specific vote on the proposal, yet e committed a voting
action.  This would appear to indicate that actions (although possibly not
game actions) can occur involuntarily.

The second question: What game action constituted Iconoclasm?
The text of the Church Policy revealed indicates that the change in
locations constitutes iconoclasm unless a penalty fee has been paid.  This
implies that the penalty fee payment must occur no later than the
movement.  So which action caused the iconoclasm?  It must be the movement
- - because failing to pay a fee is an inaction, not an action.  
So changing locations constituted iconoclasm (if we accept the above
argument that the involuntary move is a game action).

The third question:  How does the rest of the text of the Iconoclasm
section of Rule 1301 apply?
"It is impermissible for a Player to take a game action which constitutes
Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which would not 
constitute Iconoclasm."

If you accept the first two arguments above, then Wild Card has taken a
game action which constitues Iconoclasm (albeit involuntarily).  This is
illegal.  Yet a rule (also in the 1300s) says that the movement takes
place.  However, there is a legal alternative which does not result in
Iconoclasm being committed - but to do this the payment must have been
made.  As the rules specify the movement must occur, the rules also
specify the payment must occur, and hence it is an involuntary payment.
Hence A$30000 can be paid.

> It is impossible to commit an action that constitutes Iconoclasm, and
> the player in question committed no actions -- the game state did it to
> him. 
This is where I disagree - see Rule 313 for when voting actions can be
involuntary.

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:12:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

Slakko wrote:
> The game action which constitutes Iconoclasm is moving.
> There is a legal alternative - an involuntary payment of A$30000.
> So why doesn't this happen - he is not committing Iconoclasm through
> inaction, but through the action of changing locations.

There is no way for church policy to make that payment involuntary.
Church policy is not a rule.  The only effect church policy can have
on the game state is written in rule 1301:

  c. A Player who disobeys the Church Policy of a Church of which he or
  she is a member is guilty of Iconoclasm, which is a Crime. It is
  impermissible for a Player to take a game action which constitutes
  Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which would not
  constitute Iconoclasm. [That is, Iconoclasm normally doesn't happen
  unless there is no alternative. It is possible for a player to commit
  Iconoclasm by inaction, though.] 

  d. The initial Church Policy will be set by the Founder. Church Policy
  may only change according to Church Policy. 

  e. A Church is not obliged to divulge Church Policy, in whole or in part, in
  a public forum. 

  [Plus several more sections which put certain restrictions on church
  policy, and which allow church policy to define methods for determining
  seniority of priests, for the priesthood to make decisions, for the
  church to accept new members, and for managing the church's assets,
  other than the default methods.]

While church policy may define alternate methods for performing certain
types of church business, the only way it has to "force" anybody to
perform any action is by making them guilty of Iconoclasm if they fail
to do it.  On the other hand, it may prohibit them from performing some
action; if they try that action anyway, they are guilty of Attempting
the Impossible.

Your church policy says:

  It is Iconoclasm for a member of the Church who has been a player of
  Ackanomic for less than 3 weeks to change locations, unless they have paid
  to the church a penalty of A$30000."

If such a member of your church, who has not paid A$30000 to the church,
attempts to change locations, the attempt fails and e is guilty of
Attempting the Impossible.

/dev/joe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:21:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote:

> Slakko wrote:
> > The game action which constitutes Iconoclasm is moving.
> > There is a legal alternative - an involuntary payment of A$30000.
> > So why doesn't this happen - he is not committing Iconoclasm through
> > inaction, but through the action of changing locations.
> 
> There is no way for church policy to make that payment involuntary.
> Church policy is not a rule.  The only effect church policy can have
> on the game state is written in rule 1301:
> 
>   c. A Player who disobeys the Church Policy of a Church of which he or
>   she is a member is guilty of Iconoclasm, which is a Crime. It is
>   impermissible for a Player to take a game action which constitutes
>   Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which would not
>   constitute Iconoclasm. [That is, Iconoclasm normally doesn't happen
>   unless there is no alternative. It is possible for a player to commit
>   Iconoclasm by inaction, though.] 
> 
>   d. The initial Church Policy will be set by the Founder. Church Policy
>   may only change according to Church Policy. 
> 
>   e. A Church is not obliged to divulge Church Policy, in whole or in part, in
>   a public forum. 
> 
>   [Plus several more sections which put certain restrictions on church
>   policy, and which allow church policy to define methods for determining
>   seniority of priests, for the priesthood to make decisions, for the
>   church to accept new members, and for managing the church's assets,
>   other than the default methods.]
> 
> While church policy may define alternate methods for performing certain
> types of church business, the only way it has to "force" anybody to
> perform any action is by making them guilty of Iconoclasm if they fail
> to do it.  On the other hand, it may prohibit them from performing some
> action; if they try that action anyway, they are guilty of Attempting
> the Impossible.
> 
> Your church policy says:
> 
>   It is Iconoclasm for a member of the Church who has been a player of
>   Ackanomic for less than 3 weeks to change locations, unless they have paid
>   to the church a penalty of A$30000."
> 
> If such a member of your church, who has not paid A$30000 to the church,
> attempts to change locations, the attempt fails and e is guilty of
> Attempting the Impossible.

Ah, yes, but e has changed locations according to Rule 1308, in a clause
which takes precedence over any rules dealing with movement or location.
So it would appear Rule 1308 wins in this case, and hence the movement
occurs.
Hence the movement is involuntary.
Hence e commits iconoclasm unless there is a legal alternative.
This legal alternative is to have paid the A$30000.
Wild Card has no choice in the matter - hence the payment is involuntary.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:02:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 547 (/dev/joe)

/dev/joe has been selected.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 547 - March 11, 1998
Subject: Shelter
Initiator: Hibert (sent March 11, 1998, 09:19)
Judge: /dev/joe (selected March 11, 1998, 17:36)
Judgement: 

Statement:
The Church of banna has 30 000A$.

Initiator's Reasoning:
Church Policy requires a penalty of 30 000A$ before a new
member may change locations.  Wild Card is such a member, and as a result
of the recent Bracket Pendantry Hearing, must go to the wilds of
Ackanomic.  To not pay the fine would be Iconoclasm, which the rules
prohibit if there is an  alternative.  In this case, there is, namely,
paying the fine.  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:11:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

> >   c. A Player who disobeys the Church Policy of a Church of which he or
> >   she is a member is guilty of Iconoclasm, which is a Crime. It is
> >   impermissible for a Player to take a game action which constitutes
> >   Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which would not
> >   constitute Iconoclasm. [That is, Iconoclasm normally doesn't happen
> >   unless there is no alternative. It is possible for a player to commit
> >   Iconoclasm by inaction, though.] 
> > 
> >   It is Iconoclasm for a member of the Church who has been a player of
> >   Ackanomic for less than 3 weeks to change locations, unless they have
> >   paid to the church a penalty of A$30000."
> 
> Ah, yes, but e has changed locations according to Rule 1308, in a clause
> which takes precedence over any rules dealing with movement or location.
> So it would appear Rule 1308 wins in this case, and hence the movement
> occurs.

OK, I see how this happens.  However, since his location was changed by
the effect of a rule, and not by his own action, the "It is impermissible"
bit doesn't apply.  He didn't take (or attempt to take) a game action that
constituted Iconoclasm.  I read your ramble about involuntary actions, but
it doesn't help your argument any.  If R1308's movement of Wild Card is
considered to force him to perform a game action, then the "impermissible"
bit doesn't apply, because R1308 doesn't give him any alternative at all,
it simply sends him there; it does not allow him to pay the church A$30000
he does not have.

> Hence the movement is involuntary.
> Hence e commits iconoclasm unless there is a legal alternative.
> This legal alternative is to have paid the A$30000.

That alternative is not legal unless he has the A$30000 to pay.

> Wild Card has no choice in the matter - hence the payment is involuntary.

No, this argument does not follow.  "Involuntariness" does not move
around like that.  The way you are arguing, you would have to consider
Wild Card leaving the church to be another alternative, one which we
know church policy cannot prevent (because R1301 says so).  So he *does*
have a choice, and the payment is not involuntary.

/dev/joe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:24:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: BPH 104 Results

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> The first question is: What is the status of the move to the wilds of Wild
> Card?  Is it a game action?  What _is_ a game action, anyway?  No rule
> defines what constitutes a game action in general - the Gaol rule says
> anything on its list is a game action, but explicitly states that this is
> a subset of all possible game actions.  Does a game action include
> something which is done involuntarily by a player?

In your haste, you did not read the Gaol rule carefully.  Had you, you
would have discovered that it does indeed contain a general definition of
game actions.

> Note that "game action" means anything where the player must act.
> Examples include voting, submitting proposals, AOJs, chewing
> the Gumball, etc. Examples of what this does NOT include are things like
> gaining points, passively receiving currency or the Magic
> Potato, or winning. 

And now, the Rule regarding the movement to the Wilds:

> If the verdict is "It was obviously in violation!", then the alleged
> violator shall have their mistake pointed out by being publicly
> tarred and feathered, and then sent to the Wilds. They shall lose 5
> points, and may not voluntarily go to any other location for at
> least 3 days (this takes precedence over any rules dealing with movement
> or location). That player is said to have Learned their
> Lesson. 

This movement does not require any action on the part of the player.  It
happens to the player, not as a game action committed by the player, but
as a change to the game state that happens to the player.  The player need
not act for it to occur, and so it is not a game action by the only
general definition we have, that given by the Gaol rule.

> The second question: What game action constituted Iconoclasm?
> The text of the Church Policy revealed indicates that the change in
> locations constitutes iconoclasm unless a penalty fee has been paid.  This
> implies that the penalty fee payment must occur no later than the
> movement.  So which action caused the iconoclasm?  It must be the movement
> - because failing to pay a fee is an inaction, not an action.  
> So changing locations constituted iconoclasm (if we accept the above
> argument that the involuntary move is a game action).

As I have addressed above, the movement is not a game action (and even if
it is one by some other definition, it was committed by the Rules, and not
by the moving player -- see a CFJ from summer 1997 regarding trinket
creation for an analogue).

> The third question:  How does the rest of the text of the Iconoclasm
> section of Rule 1301 apply?
> "It is impermissible for a Player to take a game action which constitutes
> Iconoclasm if he or she has any legal alternative which would not 
> constitute Iconoclasm."
> 
> If you accept the first two arguments above, then Wild Card has taken a
> game action which constitues Iconoclasm (albeit involuntarily).  This is
> illegal.  Yet a rule (also in the 1300s) says that the movement takes
> place.  However, there is a legal alternative which does not result in
> Iconoclasm being committed - but to do this the payment must have been
> made.  As the rules specify the movement must occur, the rules also
> specify the payment must occur, and hence it is an involuntary payment.
> Hence A$30000 can be paid.

I do not accept the first two arguments above.  Wild Card did not commit
the game action of moving to the Wilds.  He was moved to the wilds by the
Rules.

Guy Fawkes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:49:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka CFJ 547 (FALSE)

/dev/joe has ruled this false.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 547 - March 11, 1998
Subject: Shelter
Initiator: Hibert (sent March 11, 1998, 09:19)
Judge: /dev/joe (selected March 11, 1998, 17:36)
Judgement: FALSE

Statement:
The Church of banna has 30 000A$.

Initiator's Reasoning:
Church Policy requires a penalty of 30 000A$ before a new
member may change locations.  Wild Card is such a member, and as a result
of the recent Bracket Pendantry Hearing, must go to the wilds of
Ackanomic.  To not pay the fine would be Iconoclasm, which the rules
prohibit if there is an  alternative.  In this case, there is, namely,
paying the fine.  

Judge's reasoning:
First I note it is trivially false.  If it had A$30000, it was withdrawn
by the church founder and turned into lots of little trinkets.

However, assuming the initiator meant "the church of banna had A$30000
before hibert took it", it is false anyway.

By R1301, section 3. c., it is impermissible for a player to take
a game action that constitutes iconoclasm if he or she has any legal
alternative which would not constitute iconoclasm.  However, Wild Card
did not perform any action which disobeyed the policy of the church
of banna.  The rules did it to him.  Therefore, this section of the rule
does not apply.  Wild Card still commits iconoclasm because he disobeyed
church policy, even though he took no game action to disobey it.

Slakko contends (in separate arguments) that R1308's effect may constitute
an "involuntary game action", and thus trigger the above impermissibility
clause.  However, as Guy Fawkes so kindly pointed out, game actions are
defined in R709 to be things where the player must act, and therefore
things that the rules do to a player automatically are not game actions
performed by that player.

In any case, paying the A$30000 penalty is not a legal alternative for
Wild Card.  The way the policy was written, a legal course of action for
him would be to have acquired A$30000 in some legal manner, and paid the
A$30000 to the church before being moved to the Wilds, but at the time
the rules moved him, he had not paid the penalty, and the rule cannot
change his past inaction.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:37:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: gumball

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, David Scheidt wrote:

> Today is Wednesday 11 March 1998, the second wednesday of the month, and I
> am chewing the gumball.  It tastes of scam.

Today is Wednesday, the 11th of March 1998, the second Wednesday of the
month, and I am chewing the gumball.  It tastes of spam, banna and burnt
scam.

Yours,
Slakko
living up to being el Presidente de la Gumball
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:43:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Phoebe

	No sooner had Phoebe left, then I felt something hit me on the back
of my head.  I turned around, and saw a small matchbox floating in the air.
It backed up, and then ran into my forehead, making a sound like someone on
a roller coaster.  I grabbed it, put it on the table, and opened it.  To my
surprise, inside was a steel flea, smaller then Phoebe.
	"Who are you?"  I said.
	In a childish voice, the flea replied, "I'm space fighter Chet,
rescuing the world from the evil space aliens!  Are you one of them?!"
	"No...do you know Phoebe or Ursula?"
	Just then, I heard Phoebe say from behind me, "Yes he does.  You're
in a lot of trouble, young man.  I've told you not to ride in one of the
matchboxes without my permission."
	The smaller flea hung its head (a bizzare thing for a steel flea to
do) and said, "Sorry mommy."
	I watched in amazement as Phoebe walked over to the other flea's
matchbox, opened a small panel, and pressed a button.  The matchbox
vanished.
	"My apologies,"  she said.  "He's just getting to the age where he
can drive those things, and he thinks I won't be able to track him down.
Well, good bye."
	"Wait!" I cried.  "You still owe me a piece of advice."
	"I just gave you one last time you were here."
	"But I found you again.  You owe me another piece of advice."
	"I can't.  Advice is carefully rationed.  Nothing personal, but I
don't thing you could handle any more.  I gave you a full scale revalation
last time."
	"The rules are very clear.  Every time you arrive, you have to give
advice."
	"Fine.  The rules are the rules.  Here's your advice: SHUT UP!"
And she vanished.  I thought about yelling, "That was lousy advice" but I
decided it would be inappropriate under the circumstances.

- --
- -Henry Towsner, AKA else...if, The Fearless Alibi Posesser, Laefu, and Yilran

	<[email-masked]>

	Success is the child of audacity.
		-Benjamin Disraeli

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:53:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Chet

Robert Sevin has found Chet's matchbox.

Yours,
Slakko
Officer in Charge of Silly Things
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:57:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Mitchell Harding <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Chet

At 05:53 PM 3/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Robert Sevin has found Chet's matchbox.

Please tell me what rule governs this event, that I may fully understand
what it implies.

Thanks,
Robert Sevin
<http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~mitcharf/index.html>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:46:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Michael James" <[email-masked]>
Subject: re acka phoebe

In one of those tremendous quirks of random chance, Phoebe, after one
of the shortest visits in Ackanomic history, has been found, again, by
else...if.

 karma intones: i think even more quirky is that in almost a year of play ,
i have never found phoebe (smiley face)
- - karma

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:22:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Chet

>Please tell me what rule governs this event, that I may fully understand
>what it implies.
	No rule.  No obligation.  Since this is the first occurance of this
event, you decide what it implies.

- --
- -Henry Towsner, AKA else...if, The Fearless Alibi Posesser, Laefu, and Yilran

	<[email-masked]>

	Success is the child of audacity.
		-Benjamin Disraeli

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:46:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Mitchell Harding <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Chet

At 08:22 PM 3/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Please tell me what rule governs this event, that I may fully understand
>>what it implies.
>	No rule.  No obligation.  Since this is the first occurance of this
>event, you decide what it implies.

Clearly it implies many, many things. Uncountably infinitely many, as a
matter of fact. So I'd best not even try to enumerate the many effects that
occurred as a result of my finding Chet's matchbox.

Robert Sevin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:55:51 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Chocolate Frog

Calvin N Hobbes has received the Chocolate Frog, and is now the First
Citizen of Ackanomic.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--The Offspring:Gone Away
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
A miser is hard to live with, but makes a fine ancestor.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:51:23 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Phoebe

ThinMan has found Phoebe's matchbox this time.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Peter Murphy:Should The World Fail To Fall Apart
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:51:38 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Non-Voting

The following players just became Non-Voting a couple of hours ago:

Crackfoo
Enigma
Hoover 2300
Red Barn
two-star

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Peter Murphy:Should The World Fail To Fall Apart
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
If I could change the future, I'd change the past instead

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:51:45 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: re acka phoebe

> In one of those tremendous quirks of random chance, Phoebe, after one
> of the shortest visits in Ackanomic history, has been found, again, by
> else...if.

>  karma intones: i think even more quirky is that in almost a year of play ,
> i have never found phoebe (smiley face)
> - karma

Well, as a non-voting player you're currently ineligible to find her, so
that might account for the last few months.  But think of poor Vynd, who's
been in the game over a year and has still never found the Magic Potato...

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Peter Murphy:Should The World Fail To Fall Apart
Current Book--Robert Charles Wilson:The Harvest
Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair.

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V3 #56
******************************