Subject: ackanomic digest V2 #486
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest       Sunday, January 25 1998       Volume 02 : Number 486

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:17:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Org creation

> > I suggest that Slakko is removed as a member of the standard harfer fee. I
> > suggest that The Gingham Wearer is removed as a member of the standard
> > harfer fee. At least one of these players had proxied their support, and
> > neither can oppose their own removal, so I believe both of these happen.
> 
> I believe that Rex Mundi is correct here.  Although if you'd done them the
> other way around, it wouldn't have worked, since Slakko would've needed
> to approve TGW's removal.

Not true, because TGW wouldn't have needed to approve Slakko's removal,
and once Slakko was removed, he no longer would need to approve TGW's
removal.  I guess all we can really say is that Slakko would have been
removed first, in any case, not that this matters.

/dev/joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:46:04 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Org creation

On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> 
> > I hereby create a new organization, called The Moral Kiosk. In order to do
> > so, I must pay the standard harfer fee, so I (experimentally) give 1 A$ to
> > the standard harfer fee.
> 
> This does not work.  Firstly, there is no provision for giving A$ to
> trinkets, and secondly, since you do not indicate that you are paying the
> A$25 to the Treasury.  Thus, I consider that The Moral Kiosk was never
> formed.

Erm, the standard harfer fee is an Org.
"At least the standard harfer fee" is a trinket.
Check it out again.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:44:35 -0800
From: **Alexandre Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: hats

I have sent the conditions of all agenda hats to their owners. If anyone
failed to receive them or otherwise has any questions, please contact
me.

**two-star

tardy illuminatus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:12:07 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Hat Attack

I reveal the text on one of my hats (which seems to have a large number 30
imprinted on the inside):

The owner of this hat has been chosen as
a judge for a call for justice (criminal or non) three times and, after
all possible appeals are processed, has not had eir judgment overturned.

I start wearing this Agenda Hat.

I offer to trade this Agenda Hat in exchange for any one of the following
Agenda hats (numbers as on the eggplants list):

7  (created palindromic trinket)
8  (took possession of The Little Lamb)
12 (abstained on proposals divisible by 7)
17 (five proposals between 40% and 60%)
24 (danced naked on the town hall steps)
26 (authored five proposals in a chrome streak)

My Agenda Hat feels light as air on my head.  It has no weight whatsoever.
Mind you, now and then you feel like you could do with a heavier hat.

Drop a line to the main list to accept the trade.  First one in only.

Yours,
Slakko

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
RuneMaker,Chess-Umpire,Map-Harfer,Senator,Swinger,Wearing Agenda Hat

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:22:31 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Organizational Suggestion

On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> I suggest that SPAM change its name to Minbari.
> 
> Minbari can stand for (Many Involved Nobodies Bringing Ackanomic Rich
> Ideas).  It also represents the viewpoint that there are more ideological
> differences to Ackanomic than Star Trek references can provide.
> {For those who don't get it - watch Babylon 5}.

First, Vulcan and Odo both made sense to me in view of their respective
ideologies. I don't know about the Klingon Party.

B5 references are always welcome here, but please, no spoilers - here we
still haven't seen the end of the fourth season yet. As the channel that
shows it here suddenly discovered that they were too close to original
airdates andquite rudely postponed the last eight episodes of that season.
 
> > - -- 
> Duncan C. "with Odo, Vulcan and Klingon it's time for a change" Richer aka
> Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
> Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
> Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:24:23 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Orgs (something different)

I apply to join the Committee for Understanding: they have an open
membership policy, so it happens.

I apply to join Shell #1.
I apply to join Shell #2.
I apply to join Shell #3.

(Note to rufus: The point of this is to stop other people qualifying hat
number 2 to be true - by making these into multiplayer orgs it makes it
that much harder for them to be members of more multiplayer orgs than any
other player).

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:29:13 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Organizational Suggestion

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Uri Bruck wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
> 
> > I suggest that SPAM change its name to Minbari.
> > 
> > Minbari can stand for (Many Involved Nobodies Bringing Ackanomic Rich
> > Ideas).  It also represents the viewpoint that there are more ideological
> > differences to Ackanomic than Star Trek references can provide.
> > {For those who don't get it - watch Babylon 5}.
> 
> First, Vulcan and Odo both made sense to me in view of their respective
> ideologies. I don't know about the Klingon Party.
> 
> B5 references are always welcome here, but please, no spoilers - here we
> still haven't seen the end of the fourth season yet. As the channel that
> shows it here suddenly discovered that they were too close to original
> airdates andquite rudely postponed the last eight episodes of that season.

I've seen one, count it, *one* episode of 4th season.  Don't spoil me. :-)
They still haven't screened 4th season in Oz, so I missed out when I made
the trip to Cambridge.

Yours B5withdrawlingly,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:37:34 -0500 (EST)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Orgs (something different)

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> 
> 
> (Note to rufus: The point of this is to stop other people qualifying hat
> number 2 to be true - by making these into multiplayer orgs it makes it
> that much harder for them to be members of more multiplayer orgs than any
> other player).

Thanks for explaining this to me, but it is else...if that you ought to be
explaining yourself to.  I am not, to the best of my knowledge, a member
of any orgs but SPAM and the Church of banna.  And some cult, which has a
name, but I do not know it.  

rufus, hatless 

> 
> Yours,
> Slakko
> -- 
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
> Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
> Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:39:42 -0500 (EST)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: television?

What has television to do with Acka?

rufus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:43:04 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: television?

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David Scheidt wrote:

> What has television to do with Acka?

Well, considering how many org names we take from TV, apparently a lot.

- -- 
Duncan C. "apologies to else...if over the Org mistake" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:46:00 -0500 (EST)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: television?

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David Scheidt wrote:
> 
> > What has television to do with Acka?
> 
> Well, considering how many org names we take from TV, apparently a lot.

Color me clueless.  The only one I got was Vulcan.  Of course, while I do
own a television, I don't know if it works.  Or where, precisly, it is.  I
don't think the living room counts.

 > 
> -- 
> Duncan C. "apologies to else...if over the Org mistake" Richer aka
> Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
> Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
> Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:50:48 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: television?

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David Scheidt wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David Scheidt wrote:
> > 
> > > What has television to do with Acka?
> > 
> > Well, considering how many org names we take from TV, apparently a lot.
> 
> Color me clueless.  The only one I got was Vulcan.  Of course, while I do
> own a television, I don't know if it works.  Or where, precisly, it is.  I
> don't think the living room counts.

We have two other Star Trek related orgs:

Odo on the Wormhole (Odo is the changeling in Deep Space 9, the Wormhole
is a spatial anomaly near the station)
Klingon (well, possibly not yet, I've got a CFJ in the pipeline to claim
that it is still called "the standard Harfer fee")

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "how could you get Vulcan and not Klingon?" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:25:21 -1100
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: hats

Horray, I was just toying with the idea of an IP :)

**Alexandre Muniz wrote:

> I have sent the conditions of all agenda hats to their owners. If anyone
> failed to receive them or otherwise has any questions, please contact
> me.
>
> **two-star
>
> tardy illuminatus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:21:51 -1100
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Expert in non-CFJs

> * CFJ 513 was judged True by Red Barn, and has been appealed by Slakko
>   and The Gingham Wearer.
> * CFJ 514 does not exist (lucky for K 2).

Unlucky for K 2 CFJ 513 was never assigned to em :)

I wonder if the SC will uphold my non-verdict or Red Barn's verdict?

I would like to apply to the senate for recognition as an expert in
non-CFJs

My qualifications are as follows :

    I have been assigned 484(A), which later turned out to have been
erroneously assigned, 513 (Malenkai) and 514 (Malenkai), which were both
spam masquerading as CFJs :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:36:22 -1100
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka:Orgs

I join the following orgs : (I understand they have an open
admissions policy)

Committee for Understanding
The Player Sanctioned Organization Preservation Society

I apply for admission to shell#1 through shell#54

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:53:46 -1100
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Little Lamb

I am taking possesion of the little lamb and paying the associated  A$10
fee to the treasury.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:00:35 -1100
From: K 2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Orgs (something different)

What e said

Duncan Richer wrote:

> I apply to join the Committee for Understanding: they have an open
> membership policy, so it happens.
>
> I apply to join Shell #1.
> I apply to join Shell #2.
> I apply to join Shell #3.
>
> (Note to rufus: The point of this is to stop other people qualifying hat
> number 2 to be true - by making these into multiplayer orgs it makes it
> that much harder for them to be members of more multiplayer orgs than any
> other player).
>
> Yours,
> Slakko
> --
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
> Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
> Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:16:54 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Org shuffling

On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:

> I'm having a hard time following all of these shifting organizations
> and memberships, now that people are purchasing Big Tents. Please let
> me know if there are any mistakes on the voting reports. Currently I
> have it that The Gingham Wearer has left SPAM (which may or may not be
> changing its name to Minbari), and is now a member of Klingon, along
> with Rex Mundi.

Like I said in another message, I claim that Klingon is actually still
called "the standard Harfer fee", because it did not own the trinket
"at least the standard Harfer fee" when it attempted to change its name.
There is a CFJ in the works about this.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:56:30 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Theoretical Test

I am creating a trinket with the name "Wall of Trombones #omega1", with
value A$2 and description:
"It looks like uncountably many trombones have been squashed flat and
compressed on top of one another to form a wall.  Furthermore, when you
look at it you can see that all walls consisting of countably many
trombones have been included in the wall, including Wall of Trombones #1,
#2, ...#omega, #2omega etc.  This is probably some artifact of the
definition of ordinals as sets containing all ordinals below them, and
hence the naming of the Wall of Trombones with the ordinal omega 1, the
first uncountable ordinal, has by some set theoretical anomaly included in
itself all Walls of Trombones with lower ordinals, which of course
includes all the cardinal numbers as a subset."

- -- 
Duncan C. "mmmm... Complexity of Boolean Functions" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:17:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Org shuffling

> Like I said in another message, I claim that Klingon is actually
> still called "the standard Harfer fee", because it did not own the
> trinket "at least the standard Harfer fee" when it attempted to
> change its name. There is a CFJ in the works about this.

Fine. Since Klingon is shorter, I will continue to call it that until
the verdict on your CFJ is returned.

If it is judged in your favor, I fully expect the Caped Crusader to
submit a CFCJ on you.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:26:24 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Org shuffling

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:

> If it is judged in your favor, I fully expect the Caped Crusader to
> submit a CFCJ on you.

On what grounds?

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 06:40:09 -0500 (EST)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: acka proposal 2639

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:

> Proposal 2639
> McCarthy-ism lives on
> else...if (Henry Towsner)
> 
> Create a rule entitled "Red Scare" reading as follows:
> "Paranoid" for one week.  During this time it will be a crime to publicly
> suggest that there is something wrong with the Ackanomian way of life.

I presume that playing nomic would be the Crime of Sedition?  Since trying
to change the rules implies that there is something wrong with them they
way they are now.

> This is the Crime of Sedition.  A player who commits this crime may, in
> addition to the usual penalties, be tarred and feathered for between 1 and
> 7. 

1 and 7 what?

> This rule takes precedence over all other rules, since any rule conflicting
> with this one must be a pinko-commie.

I else...if is a pinko-comie emself and is just trying to cover up.
After all, who is going to suspect the one that makes it harder for the
pinko commies?  And e is the Caped Crusader, which means e gets more
leeway in calling people pinkies.  maybe we should investigate em?  

rufus

z

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:02:24 -0000
From: "The Gingham Wearer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Org creation

> > I then suggest that The Gingham Wearer be ejected from Klingon; I
> > immediately denounce that suggestion.
> 
> I don't know if this will work or not.  I think that what will happen
> is that TGW will end up ejected from Klingon, because of eir proxied
> approval, and your denunciation of it will happen a microsecond or so
> too late...

I don't think that happens. Rex Mundi did not have his approval proxied
IIRC so he never supported the action so it didn't happen. Anyhow, just to
be on the safe side I apply to join Klingon if I am not already a member. I
also note that if Slakko is right then all of this will be academic because
Rex Mundi will never have joined. Or will Klingon be considered an
unambiguous mis-spelling of the standard harfer fee?

The Gingham Wearer.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:12:10 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Org creation

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, The Gingham Wearer wrote:

> > > I then suggest that The Gingham Wearer be ejected from Klingon; I
> > > immediately denounce that suggestion.
> > 
> > I don't know if this will work or not.  I think that what will happen
> > is that TGW will end up ejected from Klingon, because of eir proxied
> > approval, and your denunciation of it will happen a microsecond or so
> > too late...
> 
> I don't think that happens. Rex Mundi did not have his approval proxied
> IIRC so he never supported the action so it didn't happen. Anyhow, just to
> be on the safe side I apply to join Klingon if I am not already a member. I
> also note that if Slakko is right then all of this will be academic because
> Rex Mundi will never have joined. Or will Klingon be considered an
> unambiguous mis-spelling of the standard harfer fee?

I think the unambiguous mis-spelling is what will happen - intent was
clear so what was intended is what happens. 

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:28:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Two questions

The first sentence of Rule 371 is:

> Posts that are sent through any mailing list maintained by the
> Postmaster are deemed to have occurred at the time that they are
> received by the list server.

This is how we deal with Hubert situations - when two messages are
sent at almost the same time, and we need to know which one was
"first". Of course, the Date that appears on your email isn't the time
that it arrived at the list server (i.e., muppetlabs.com). It's the
time taken from your computer when you send it. The time it's received
at muppetlabs.com can be gleaned by grovelling through the email
headers, of course, but it's a minor pain, and worse, that information
doesn't get saved in the mail archives.

The latter point was really driven home to me while I was going
through the archives while doing the history pages. I wrote a program
that grabbed the archives from all the different lists and shuffled
them together into one long stream, ordered by timestamp. I had
forgotten how much of the email had incorrect timestamps. Many people
had the wrong timezone, or would fail to change on daylight savings;
one person's computer was thirty minutes fast; occasionally someone's
computer would fritz and their mail would show up dated January 1st,
1970; et cetera et cetera.

So ... after talking with Malenkai about this, I got an idea to write
a little program that would timestamp emails before handing them off
to majordomo. That way, the email's "Date:" would actually show the
time that the email arrived at muppetlabs.com. The original timestamp
would be moved to an "X-line" in the header, so that information would
still be present, just in case.

I've just finished writing and testing such a program. It's a very
simple program, and it works fine. So: are players friendly toward the
idea?

I can only think of two real drawbacks. The first is that this program
requires a Postmaster that can implement it. It's not guaranteed that
that will be true in the future. Majordomo is set up so that the list
maintainer does not need to have any special access to the computer it
runs on, which is not the case with this program, obviously. However,
a Postmaster without root access would also have a hard time setting
up new mailing lists on demand - which seems to occur rather
frequently in this game - so it seems unlikely that any future
Postmasters should have the necessary permissions and know-how to
install this program as well. And if not ... well, we survived two
years without it, so we could always go back.

The second possible drawback would be if we had a future Postmaster
that did not live in the US, because of possible difficulties with
daylight savings time. It's fairly trivial for me here in Seattle to
change the timestamp from Pacific to Eastern because both timezones
use the same rules for when DST begins and ends. But I know this is
not true everywhere; if the Postmaster was in Eastern Europe, say,
they would need to have a program that would do the DST calculations
separately. Such programs do exist, so again, that may not be a big
deal. Again, the game can survive without this convenience.

But this brings me to my second question. How would people feel about
changing the Ackanomic time from EST/EDT to GMT? Back when the current
timezone was chosen, Wayne was the Promoter and Tabulator, and
Malenkai was the Speaker and perhaps Financier. /dev/joe was really
the only harfer that wasn't in EST/EDT. Now, of course, Alfvaen is in
MST/MDT, and I'm over here in PST/PDT, so the advantage is lost. Since
we all have to convert timezones anyway, it would be nice to use GMT.
Computing GMT requires no special programs, because it's the standard.
Most modern OSes can automatically give you the time in two zones:
your time zone, and GMT. Anywhere else requires a separate program to
do the calculations. The only objective drawback I can see to this
idea is dealing with deadlines and such during the changeover.

I look forward to your input....

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:26:40 -0800
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: Two questions

Brian Raiter wrote:
> 
> The first sentence of Rule 371 is:
> 
> > Posts that are sent through any mailing list maintained by the
> > Postmaster are deemed to have occurred at the time that they are
> > received by the list server.
> 
> This is how we deal with Hubert situations - when two messages are
> sent at almost the same time, and we need to know which one was
> "first". Of course, the Date that appears on your email isn't the time
> that it arrived at the list server (i.e., muppetlabs.com). It's the
> time taken from your computer when you send it. The time it's received
> at muppetlabs.com can be gleaned by grovelling through the email
> headers, of course, but it's a minor pain, and worse, that information
> doesn't get saved in the mail archives.
> 
> The latter point was really driven home to me while I was going
> through the archives while doing the history pages. I wrote a program
> that grabbed the archives from all the different lists and shuffled
> them together into one long stream, ordered by timestamp. I had
> forgotten how much of the email had incorrect timestamps. Many people
> had the wrong timezone, or would fail to change on daylight savings;
> one person's computer was thirty minutes fast; occasionally someone's
> computer would fritz and their mail would show up dated January 1st,
> 1970; et cetera et cetera.
> 
> So ... after talking with Malenkai about this, I got an idea to write
> a little program that would timestamp emails before handing them off
> to majordomo. That way, the email's "Date:" would actually show the
> time that the email arrived at muppetlabs.com. The original timestamp
> would be moved to an "X-line" in the header, so that information would
> still be present, just in case.
> 
> I've just finished writing and testing such a program. It's a very
> simple program, and it works fine. So: are players friendly toward the
> idea?
> 
> I can only think of two real drawbacks. The first is that this program
> requires a Postmaster that can implement it. It's not guaranteed that
> that will be true in the future. Majordomo is set up so that the list
> maintainer does not need to have any special access to the computer it
> runs on, which is not the case with this program, obviously. However,
> a Postmaster without root access would also have a hard time setting
> up new mailing lists on demand - which seems to occur rather
> frequently in this game - so it seems unlikely that any future
> Postmasters should have the necessary permissions and know-how to
> install this program as well. And if not ... well, we survived two
> years without it, so we could always go back.
> 
> The second possible drawback would be if we had a future Postmaster
> that did not live in the US, because of possible difficulties with
> daylight savings time. It's fairly trivial for me here in Seattle to
> change the timestamp from Pacific to Eastern because both timezones
> use the same rules for when DST begins and ends. But I know this is
> not true everywhere; if the Postmaster was in Eastern Europe, say,
> they would need to have a program that would do the DST calculations
> separately. Such programs do exist, so again, that may not be a big
> deal. Again, the game can survive without this convenience.
> 
> But this brings me to my second question. How would people feel about
> changing the Ackanomic time from EST/EDT to GMT? Back when the current
> timezone was chosen, Wayne was the Promoter and Tabulator, and
> Malenkai was the Speaker and perhaps Financier. /dev/joe was really
> the only harfer that wasn't in EST/EDT. Now, of course, Alfvaen is in
> MST/MDT, and I'm over here in PST/PDT, so the advantage is lost. Since
> we all have to convert timezones anyway, it would be nice to use GMT.
> Computing GMT requires no special programs, because it's the standard.
> Most modern OSes can automatically give you the time in two zones:
> your time zone, and GMT. Anywhere else requires a separate program to
> do the calculations. The only objective drawback I can see to this
> idea is dealing with deadlines and such during the changeover.
> 
> I look forward to your input....
> 
> breadbox
atomic clock on their computer?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:58:19 -0000
From: "The Gingham Wearer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Two questions

I have nothing against either of the two things you suggested. If the
postmaster changes then wouldn't it just be possible to stop using the
program at that time? As for changing back to GMT that would certainly make
things easier for me being in the UK myself (except for the zombie master
rule, but I think that this should be repealed anyhow). It really depends
on what everyone else wants. I know that most of Acka's inhabitants are
American so GMT might make things awkward for them.

The Gingham Wearer.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:08:25 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Two questions

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, The Gingham Wearer wrote:

> I have nothing against either of the two things you suggested. If the
> postmaster changes then wouldn't it just be possible to stop using the
> program at that time? As for changing back to GMT that would certainly make
> things easier for me being in the UK myself (except for the zombie master
> rule, but I think that this should be repealed anyhow). It really depends
> on what everyone else wants. I know that most of Acka's inhabitants are
> American so GMT might make things awkward for them.

It doesn't sound like it is going to be all that hard to implement the new
timing mechanism from what breadbox has said, so given that it is a
no-lose situation I say go for it.  On the matter of GMT, it does have the
advantage of easy compatibility with practically everything.  However, I
can understand if people want to stay with EST/EDT.  I would support the
change.
- -- 
Duncan C. "GMT Already" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:35:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Two questions

> I have nothing against either of the two things you suggested. If
> the postmaster changes then wouldn't it just be possible to stop
> using the program at that time?

Of course. The only reason I point it out is that the game might have
become very dependent on it by then. Right now, we generally try to
avoid putting Hubert situations in the rules because they're such a
pain to deal with. If a year from now I get hit by a truck and whoever
is the next Postmaster doesn't have wheel on their machine, the
players may discover to their chagrin that the game has become a
nightmare to harf without perfect timestamps, because we stopped
worrying about that being an issue.

I myself don't think that's a good enough argument not to use it, but
I did want to point it out.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:36:24 -0000
From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Org creation

> I don't think that happens. Rex Mundi did not have his approval proxied
> IIRC so he never supported the action so it didn't happen. Anyhow, just
to
> be on the safe side I apply to join Klingon if I am not already a member.
I
> also note that if Slakko is right then all of this will be academic
because
> Rex Mundi will never have joined. Or will Klingon be considered an
> unambiguous mis-spelling of the standard harfer fee?
> 
> 
> The Gingham Wearer.

I suggest and approve of The Gingham Wearer joining Klingon.

Rex Mundi.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:45:13 -0000
From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: Going to the temple

Standing outside Vulcan HQ, I blink in surprise as it suddenly vanishes.
Then I go to the Temple of Azpiazu.

Rex Mundi.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:49:45 -0000
From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka: Org creation again

#transfer RexBank, Rex Mundi: 675 A$.

I pay the 25 A$ to create a new org entitled The Moral Kiosk.

I give 650 A$ to The Moral Kiosk.

I suggest that The Moral Kiosk buy a Trade License, and I approve of this;
thus, it happens.

I say *cough*400*cough* again.

Rex Mundi.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:55:30 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Going to the temple

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Gavin M. Doig wrote:

> Standing outside Vulcan HQ, I blink in surprise as it suddenly vanishes.
> Then I go to the Temple of Azpiazu.

Actually, I don't think it vanishes.  It was created by a rule, and that
rule may or may not have been repealed.  But even if the rule creating it
has been repealed, no rule has been passed destroying it.  Hence it still
exists, even if it no longer has the power to eject non-Vulcans directly
to eir homes.

Yours, Slakko

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:05:47 -0500 (EST)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: test

On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, John Frederic Mc Coy wrote:

> 
> I had some email problems today, this is just to make sure that I'm
> getting my mail.
> 
>                                  - Vynd
> 
> [email-masked]
> 

hrmph, this took about 8 hours to reach me...  I seem to have gotten all
my mail for yesterday now, although it is out of order.  Just to be
thorough, let me ask if this has happened to anyone else?

                                    - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:17:20 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: test

> hrmph, this took about 8 hours to reach me...  I seem to have gotten all
> my mail for yesterday now, although it is out of order.  Just to be
> thorough, let me ask if this has happened to anyone else?

Yes it happens to me too.  I get some mail late (1-24 hrs), and fail
to receive some Acka mail at all.

Malenkai

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:37:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Two questions

Forwarded message:
> From: [email-masked]
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:26:40 -0800
> 
> Brian Raiter wrote:
> > Of course, the Date that appears on your email isn't the time
> > that it arrived at the list server (i.e., muppetlabs.com). It's the
> > time taken from your computer when you send it. The time it's received
> > at muppetlabs.com can be gleaned by grovelling through the email
> > headers, of course, but it's a minor pain, and worse, that information
> > doesn't get saved in the mail archives.

Funny that hoover2300 should reply to this message, since he seems to be one
of those whose timestamps on his mail are off. In this case, it looks like
his computer's clock is one day behind. (given the reply to breadbox's
message of Jan 25th 8 AM).

/dev/joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:41:24 -0500 (EST)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CSR 125

Slakko has pointed out to me that, even though it was authored by him, I
must report that CSR 125 has been accepted, its changes made.  I have now
done so. Expect a proposal soon. :)

                               - CSSR Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:45:33 -0000
From: "The Gingham Wearer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Going to the temple

> From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>

> On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Gavin M. Doig wrote:
> 
> > Standing outside Vulcan HQ, I blink in surprise as it suddenly
vanishes.
> > Then I go to the Temple of Azpiazu.
> 
> Actually, I don't think it vanishes.  It was created by a rule, and that
> rule may or may not have been repealed.  But even if the rule creating it
> has been repealed, no rule has been passed destroying it.  Hence it still
> exists, even if it no longer has the power to eject non-Vulcans directly
> to eir homes.

I haven't a clue whether it exists or not, or whether rule 1 exists or not
(I presume someone's submitted a CFJ on this. I was going to but decided
I'd leave it to someone who wanted to do some reasoning), but it certainly
isn't called Vulcan HQ so in a sense Vulcan HQ has vanished. I also note
that there is now no question as to whether or not Malenkai can leave the
game. Rule 1 (if it exists) states:

"Those players who were members of Rule 1 is repealed. #1 on August 28,
1997 [/dev/joe, Malenkai, ThinMan, and Vynd] are Evil Overlords of
Ackanomic (retired). No other players and no non-players are Evil Overlords
of Ackanomic (retired)."

This means that there are now no evil overlords so there is no question as
to whether Malenkai can leave the game.

The Gingham Wearer.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:52:00 -0500 (EST)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Why not

I am going to Vulcan Headquarters.

                                   - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:01:59 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka: Going to the temple

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, The Gingham Wearer wrote:

> I haven't a clue whether it exists or not, or whether rule 1 exists or not
> (I presume someone's submitted a CFJ on this. I was going to but decided
> I'd leave it to someone who wanted to do some reasoning), but it certainly
> isn't called Vulcan HQ so in a sense Vulcan HQ has vanished. 

Actually, again no rule specifies the change in name of the organization,
so it is _still_ called Vulcan HQ if it exists.  Actually, if Vulcan ever
changed its name while the rule was still in operation, a new Headquarters
would come into existence, cluttering up the map no end :-(

Oh, and yes, I have submitted a CFJ on this.  I've got 3 various CFJs
queued up with Balsamic Dragon awaiting distribution.

Yours,
Slakko

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko the Really Lost Warner Brother - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/
Queens' College -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory -- Cambridge University
Ackanomic - RuneMaker - Chess-Umpire - Map-Harfer - Senator - Swinger

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V2 #486
*******************************