Subject: ackanomic digest V2 #369
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest       Monday, November 17 1997       Volume 02 : Number 369

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:38:23 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2376

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Uri Bruck wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I oppose this proposal for a couple of reasons.
> > 
> > First, Ackanomic is a game played by email, and it has always been
> > recognized, agreed upon, and engraved in many rules, that it is a game
> > that should be playable by someone who reads eir mail once every three
> > days. It is granted that Slakko was unaware of this. I don't think that
> > Swingers should be rewarded for responding in less than three days, or
> > contrariwise, penalized for  responding in a reasonable time, or penalized
> > for not responding at all.
> 
> I personally don't see why anyone would hold the position of Party Swinger
> unless they were going to play Party Chess.  If they are going to play
> Party Chess, then they will play, and make moves regularly, and they will
> hopefully not be penalised too much.  If they are not going to play Party
> Chess, then why did they become a Swinger in the first place?

They do want to play, but we do have this very reasonable custom of
giving three days. You can't expect every acka player, and every Swinger
to read their mail every day.

 > 
> I've been looking for ways to give Party Chess more than its current
> absolute minimal impact on the game.  I thought that a modification so as
I fully suppor that goal.

> to encourage some faster development of the game would be a good idea.

Some  of my recent proposals do just that.

> Further, I was hoping to encourage more play with this rule, not just
> faster play.  If you look at the movement log, you will see that the game
> has had 88 moves in 14 months - that's approximately one move every five
> days.  

That was partially due to my poor management towards the end of my term in
Office.

> Of these moves, 27 have been passes by default, while 5 have been
> automatic passes for a Warm Swinger's office (note that the proposal as it
> stands does not penalise a Warm office for failing to submit).  This
> leaves an average of four moves a month.

Red Barn's mail has been bouncing for a couple of days. It is possible
that he did not it was his turn.

> 
> Given the rate at which Acka's ruleset is capable of change, I find it
> difficult to see how a game with only four moves a month is capable of
> being very relevant.  I therefore simply sought a way to encourage people
> (1) to play, and (2) to play quickly.
> 
> If anyone agrees with my principles but not my methods, then perhaps some
> suggestions of yours would be appreciated.  If you only have slight
> disagreement with my methods, then get this proposal through and fix it up
> with an amendment - I'll be more than happy to go along with an amendment
> which does not gut the heart of this proposal.

I agree with the principles. I disagree with the methods.
See below.

Fine. I'll change my vote to Yes on this one and propose what I believe to
be appropriate amendments.

Niccolo Flychuck
Party Chess Expert.

> 
> > 
> > The second reason is implementation - the only way the velocity variable
> > can shrink is when a Swinger does not submit a legal move within eir turn.
> > Otherwise, it can potentially grow unimpeded, and soon will overshadow all
> > other components of Swinger Weight, as to make the Swinger's board
> > position wholly immaterial.
> 
> I can see that this particular part is capable of causing some problems.
> However, I don't see that this second reason alone is sufficient for
> rejecting the rule.  After all, if enough people were interestedI would
> be more than happy to set limits on the value of this Variable, or to have
> some adjustment mechanism in place when the values get too high.  In the
> early days of such a system, though, it should be left in a relatively
> simple position to see how it affects the game.

> 
> Yours,
> Chess-Umpire Slakko
> - --
> Duncan C. Richer -- aka Slakko the Lost Warner Brother -- Now Really Lost!
> Queens' College  -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory --  Cambridge University
> "Equipment malfunction." "Well, whack it." -- Obscure P&TB Quote
> http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/Nomic/27/Index.html <-- Imperial Nomic Game 27
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:53:02 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka : New Ackaphysicist page

http://www.actcom.co.il/~bruck/acka/phys/

Yeah. That's where it is. Watch out for new translations son.

Uri

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:10:01 +0000 ()
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2376

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Uri Bruck wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Duncan Richer wrote:
> 
> > I personally don't see why anyone would hold the position of Party Swinger
> > unless they were going to play Party Chess.  If they are going to play
> > Party Chess, then they will play, and make moves regularly, and they will
> > hopefully not be penalised too much.  If they are not going to play Party
> > Chess, then why did they become a Swinger in the first place?
> 
> 
> They do want to play, but we do have this very reasonable custom of
> giving three days. You can't expect every acka player, and every Swinger
> to read their mail every day.

Sometimes you just can't pick up on custom by reading the rules. 

> 
>  > 
> > I've been looking for ways to give Party Chess more than its current
> > absolute minimal impact on the game.  I thought that a modification so as
> I fully suppor that goal.
> 
> 
> > to encourage some faster development of the game would be a good idea.
> 
> Some  of my recent proposals do just that.
> 
> > Of these moves, 27 have been passes by default, while 5 have been
> > automatic passes for a Warm Swinger's office (note that the proposal as it
> > stands does not penalise a Warm office for failing to submit).  This
> > leaves an average of four moves a month.
> 
> Red Barn's mail has been bouncing for a couple of days. It is possible
> that he did not it was his turn.

This is unfortunate, but what can be done in such a situation?

> 
> Fine. I'll change my vote to Yes on this one and propose what I believe to
> be appropriate amendments.

Er, Nic, I already retracted.  It looked like Alfvaen hated it too. :-)

Yours,
Chess-Umpire Slakko
- --
Duncan C. Richer -- aka Slakko the Lost Warner Brother -- Now Really Lost!
Queens' College  -- PhD, Pure Maths, Graph Theory --  Cambridge University
"... and entirely motivated by hormones.  Works for me!"   --  Freakazoid!
http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/Nomic/27/Index.html <-- Imperial Nomic Game 27

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:06:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Postmasterness

Red Barn's mail is in fact bouncing; in fact, it has now been bouncing
for a full three days, so I am now moving him to the digest versions
of the lists as per my privilege as Postmaster.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:54:03 -0700 (MST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Offer

I am offering 7 PFAlfvaen to Red Barn for undisclosed services.

I should also mention to Balsamic Dragon that e should accept my offers of
String(and a Rock to wind it around)before they expire.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Billy Joel:James
Current Book--Dave Duncan:Future Indefinite
If man had been meant to fly, he would have invented airplanes.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:07:33 -0500
From: "Vivian Norwood" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Offer

> 
> I am offering 7 PFAlfvaen to Red Barn for undisclosed services.
> 
> I should also mention to Balsamic Dragon that e should accept my offers
of
> String(and a Rock to wind it around)before they expire.
> 
> 
>
Sorry, I just got in and I didn't realize there was a deadline.  I accept
Alfvaen's gracious offer and will post more later.

Balsamic Dragon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:40:00 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Phoebe lives

mr cwm has found Phoebe.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:33:47 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 471 (Slakko)

I was selected and declined.  Alfvaen and I had a bit of
discussion about this before it was officially submitted,
so it seemed bogus to be selected.

Slakko has been selected.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgment 471
  Subject: That message
Initiator: Alfvaen
Submitted: 97-11-14 21:33
    Judge: Malenkai (declined)
2nd Judge: Slakko (selected 97-11-17 20:33)
Judgement: 

Statement:

Red Barn buried a Majik called Big-Nosed Kilroy on October 13th, 1997.

Alfvaen's Reasoning:

Red Barn posted a message with the subject "Trinket Creation" on October
10th, 1997, which described, among other attempted actions, the creation
and burial of a Majik called Big-Nosed Kilroy.  Malenkai pointed out later
that day that none of the actions succeeded, since(then)it was impossible
to take a public action in a message whose subject was not prefaced by
"Acka:" or "Ackanomic:".

On October 13, 1997, Red Barn posted a message with subject "Acka: Redo",
in which he states:

   I repeat the attempted actions in that message, in the order in which
   I attempted them earlier.

The context(which includes a quote of Malenkai's response)makes it
clear which message "that message" refers to, i.e. "Trinket Creation".
The "Trinket Creation" message does unambiguously(and in great
detail)specify a sequence of attempted actions.  Therefore I contend that
the attempted actions in "Acka: Redo" were specified fully and
unambiguously, and furthermore did not fail for any other reason(since the
game state did not change between the two posts to make the actions
impossible).

Therefore, at the time "Acka: Redo" was received by the server, the actions
specified in "Trinket Creation" were performed, and Big-Nosed Kilroy was
buried.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:39:16 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 472 (mr cwm)

mr cwm has been selected.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgment 472
  Subject: Scoring
Initiator: Slakko
Submitted: 97-11-16 18:38
    Judge: mr cwm (selected 97-11-17 20:39)
Judgement: 

Statement:

Slakko's score should have been 7 after e made his first French-Scotsman
style Rant.

Slakko's Reasoning:

The French-Scotsmen rule refers to a penalty being counteracted.  Rule 207
describes a number of different score changes that result from the
adoption or rejection of a proposal.  However, it does not specify that
multiple score changes it describes are supposed to be considered as a
single change.  Further, the explicit mention of "multiple score changes"
resulting from a single proposal being put through simultaneously implies
that, while they may occur simultaneously, they are separate changes
happening at the same instant in time.

Therefore my score around the time of my first rant should have been
affected as follows:

- -7: non-Modest, non-Grandiose proposal rejected.
+3: voted YES on rejected normal proposal.
+3: New Player Soft Penalty
+7: Penalty counteracted by Crazy French-Scotsmen Rule
+1: Score raised to next highest prime by Crazy French-Scotsmen Rule

This should have changed my score from 0 before Proposal 2345 was rejected
to 7 after the Rant.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:30:19 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Treasure 176 found

Alfvaen has found the Parka (treasure 176), with proposal 2375.
Perhaps he wants to tell us how he figured it out, and how he came
to find it at this time.

The map was:

The first player to author a qualified public message that changes
the game state, as judged by me (eg, proposal, IP, CFJ, YORL play,
etc),shall find the Parka. A qualified message isone that contains
the word "seven" in any of the these languages: Euskara, Albanian,
Welsh, or Lituanian.

Malenkai
whose life as the OiCoRT will be *much* easier :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:41:27 -0800
From: [email-masked] (Dice server)
Subject: Acka: SBoC Random OC determination

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dice rolls requested by: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Rolls also sent to:
    [email-masked]

# Player: ThinMan
# I am using the dice server to determine the random otzma card
# delivered from the spell book of chorg based on the following
# schedule:
# 1 - go fish
# 2 - map shard
# 3 - untouch me
# 4 - share my expenses
# 5 - share my income
# 6 - swinging sale
# 7 - tactical retreat
# 8 - paratroop
# 9 - foul fowl
# 10 - truthseeker
# 11 - fix my gadget
# 12 - scientist for a day
# 13 - art thief
# 14 - skeleton key

No. of sides on every die:     14
No. of dice for every roll:     1
No. of dice rolls requested:    1
No. of rolls per line:          1

      2

Information on the dice server:
   DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
   Replies to [email-masked] vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.

   For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
   subject "help" to [email-masked], or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/

   The dice server is provided by:

      Shadow Island Games
      http://www.pbm.com/ds.html

Original message follows:
> From [email-masked]  Mon Nov 17 18:41:16 1997
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
>       id SAA27355 for <[email-masked]>; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:41:16 -0800
> Received: from mail.itw.net(206.138.122.6) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
>       id sma027351; Mon Nov 17 18:41:10 1997
> Received: from itw.com (4-109.SURFER.TIDALWAVE.COM [208.211.4.109]) by mail.itw.net (8.8.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA12417 for <[email-masked]>; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:40:56 -0500
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:40:41 -0500
> From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; U)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: ds
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> #P [email-masked]
> #S 14
> #D 1
> #R 1
> #L 1
> #T Acka: SBoC Random OC determination
> 
> #C Player: ThinMan
> #C I am using the dice server to determine the random otzma card
> #C delivered from the spell book of chorg based on the following
> #C schedule:
> #C 1 - go fish
> #C 2 - map shard
> #C 3 - untouch me
> #C 4 - share my expenses
> #C 5 - share my income
> #C 6 - swinging sale
> #C 7 - tactical retreat
> #C 8 - paratroop
> #C 9 - foul fowl
> #C 10 - truthseeker
> #C 11 - fix my gadget
> #C 12 - scientist for a day
> #C 13 - art thief
> #C 14 - skeleton key

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:22:38 -0800
From: [email-masked] (Dice server)
Subject: Acka: Ackanomicon Determination

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dice rolls requested by: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Rolls also sent to:
    [email-masked]

# Player: two-star
# Ackanomicon determination
# based on the following (using a 51 sided die):
# 1 -15: arcane trivia
# 16-20: vile prophecies
# 21-25: inner workings
# 26-30: arcane lore
# 31-33: terrorizing pages
# 34-34: ancient artifact
# 35-36: mutation
# 37-38: dark domain
# 39-39: the secret
# 40-41: long lost treasure
# 42-43: doomsday
# 44-44: forbidden fruit
# 45-45: catastrophe
# 46-49: not so forbidden fruit
# 50-50: ancient one
# Malenkai

No. of sides on every die:     50
No. of dice for every roll:     1
No. of dice rolls requested:    1
No. of rolls per line:          1

     45

Information on the dice server:
   DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
   Replies to [email-masked] vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.

   For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
   subject "help" to [email-masked], or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/

   The dice server is provided by:

      Shadow Island Games
      http://www.pbm.com/ds.html

Original message follows:
> From [email-masked]  Mon Nov 17 19:22:34 1997
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
>       id TAA28278 for <[email-masked]>; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:22:34 -0800
> Received: from mail.itw.net(206.138.122.6) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
>       id sma028276; Mon Nov 17 19:22:32 1997
> Received: from itw.com (4-109.SURFER.TIDALWAVE.COM [208.211.4.109]) by mail.itw.net (8.8.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14711 for <[email-masked]>; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:22:30 -0500
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:22:15 -0500
> From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; U)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: fd
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> #P [email-masked]
> #S 50
> #D 1
> #R 1
> #L 1
> #T Acka: Ackanomicon Determination
> 
> #C Player: two-star
> #C Ackanomicon determination
> #C based on the following (using a 51 sided die):
> #C 1 -15: arcane trivia
> #C 16-20: vile prophecies
> #C 21-25: inner workings
> #C 26-30: arcane lore
> #C 31-33: terrorizing pages
> #C 34-34: ancient artifact
> #C 35-36: mutation
> #C 37-38: dark domain
> #C 39-39: the secret
> #C 40-41: long lost treasure
> #C 42-43: doomsday
> #C 44-44: forbidden fruit
> #C 45-45: catastrophe
> #C 46-49: not so forbidden fruit
> #C 50-50: ancient one
> #C Malenkai

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:31:45 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Potato

CnH has found the magic potato.  Apparently no one found it last
week :)

Malenkai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:34:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Chorg

I am reading page 6 of my Spell Book of Chorg.

/dev/joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:33:20 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 470 Verdict

CFJ 470 has been judged TRUE.

Clerk of the Courts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgment 470
  Subject: Retracting
Initiator: Slakko
Submitted: 97-11-13 2:38
    Judge: /dev/joe (selected 97-11-13 8:49)
Judgement: TRUE 

Statement:

Proposal 2347 was retracted.

Slakko's Reasoning:

If the wish to commit an action is considered equivalent to an action, as
the result of CFJ 447 clearly states, then surely stating that one "will
retract a proposal" is just as equivalent to stating that one "is
retracting a proposal".  Therefore Niccolo's statement that proposal 2347
"will be retracted" should have been interpreted as him saying "I am
retracting proposal 2347".

/dev/joe's Reasoning:

I concur with the initiator's reasoning.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:49:02 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: INP 350 Results (Acka:)

Ackanomic voted against
Agora voted for

Both votes were more than 96 hours before to the end of the
voting period

All other members abstained; proposal is rejected.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:51:27 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: INP 351

The hearing for INP 351 is over, and acka will vote yes,
decided by a 5-0 vote.

Malenkai

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V2 #369
*******************************