Subject: ackanomic digest V2 #271
From: [email-masked] (ackanomic digest)
To: [email-masked]

ackanomic digest      Wednesday, August 27 1997      Volume 02 : Number 271

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: 
From: 
Subject: [none]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:17:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Acka: Let's be Clear About This

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Uri Bruck wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since we are all being clear on this. I find the current situation boring.
> If this is not resolved soon I might quit Ackanomic entirely.
> 
> Niccolo Flychuck
> 

First of all let me say that I would be sad to see you go.  However, if
you find the current situation boring, I don't see how it can be Vulcan's
fault.  At the moment, game play is essentially unchanged from before the
revolution.  Yes, there are dictators now, but we haven't changed
Ackanomic into a game of Imperialist Nomic or anything.  We have no
intention of simply dictating play from here on out.  The only places
where we might be inclined to intervene would be direct attempts to remove
us from power.  I was glad to see this stuff happening, even before I was
a part of Vulcan, because *I* was getting bored with the way things were
going back then.  Nothing much at all was happening, with hardly any
proposals being written and everyone sort of sitting around to see what
would happen when /dev/joe and Chaos left their posts.  This is much more
interesting.  So feel free to try and throw us out, or if that bores you,
just go ahead and do the same kind of stuff you always did.  But don't
blame the boredom on Vulcan please.

                                    - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:49:47 -0400
From: "Vivian Norwood" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Let's be Clear About This

> First of all let me say that I would be sad to see you go.  However, if
> you find the current situation boring, I don't see how it can be Vulcan's
> fault.  At the moment, game play is essentially unchanged from before the
> revolution.  Yes, there are dictators now, but we haven't changed
> Ackanomic into a game of Imperialist Nomic or anything.  We have no
> intention of simply dictating play from here on out.  The only places
> where we might be inclined to intervene would be direct attempts to
remove
> us from power.  

Woah, woah, wait a sec.  Realty check here.  I don't want to see anyone
leave the game either, but saying that nothing has changed, we just have
ditators now is ridiculous!  Of course the game has changed!  The object of
this game is, ultimately, to win.  Yes, there is lots of fun to be had in
the process of game play, but if you can't win, what's the point?  Ultimate
veto power of any one group means that players are discouraged from trying
to get away with something clever.  If it gets through, its only because
the Vulcan party LET it get through.  I have never played imperialist nomic
before, (though I understand the concept) but I would rather see the
dictators stand proud and admit who they are then sink behind a curtain and
only pop out when it pleases them.  The only real problem I will have with
this game (and your letter swings awfully close predicting this state) is
if, after a while, the Vulcan Party picks a winner and steps down. 

Live free or die!
Balsamic Dragon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:56:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Thierry Joffrain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: I turn my back for 5 seconds and you kids do what?   ; )

[Dictators in Acka. Hmm...]

If possible I'd like to becoming a voting member once more.

Calvin N Hobbes
back to school

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Assistant-Web-Harferness

* The downloadable Rules documents have been brought up to date.
* The Rules-by-Hundreds index has been moved to acka/rules/rules.html.
  (Alfaven, take note.)
* The new Proposal archive is available (in rough form) at
  acka/props/props.html. It has been also been brought up to date.
* The CSR archive has been updated and is available at
  acka/rules/csrs.html.
* A Senate Resolution archive has been created and is available at
  acka/rules/srs.html.
* All of the above locations should be read as having
  http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/ prepended to them.

breadbox
still tabulating by hand, obviously

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:08:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: "A.K.A. TheWiz" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Let's be Clear About This

  Well, I suppose I might as well throw my opinion in...
  The dictators attained their dictatorship within the rules of the game;
thus, they did it fairly.  I have nothing personal against em.
  The game is simply not as fun with someone to veto anything e
doesn't like (though I believe somebody stated intent not to) and bail us
out of our crises, however.  Espescially that second... :-)

Dan Knapp
Give me the potatoes, or give me death!

____________________________________________________________________________
|The Mauve Baron|  Beep  [email-masked] * http://www.bergen.org/~dankna|
|---------------|  Blip  |-------------------------------------------------|
|   Dan Knapp   |  Bonk  |     This notice copyright (C)1997 Dan Knapp     |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1997 15:28:16 CST/CDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Acka: forthcoming CFCJ's

AC>Guy Fawkes wrote:
AC>> I desperately hope the sentiments expressed in the CFCJ's about to be
AC>> released are incorrect.  I want to believe in the trustworthiness of
AC>> myAC>> fellow players; I want to believe I have misjudged them.
AC>>AC>> To the dicators: if I have misjudged you, prove me wrong by
lettingAC>> the
AC>> CFCJ's take their normal channels.  I will bribe no one to appeal the
AC>> verdict to the Supreme Court if false; and if they are appealed, rest
AC>> assured that I will take the fact that they have actually reached the
AC>> Court unharmed as concrete evidence that I was wrong.  Rest assured
AC>> alsoAC>> that breadbox is an excellent conscience :)
AC>>AC>The subject of CFJs has recently arisen during the discussions
amongstAC>your Evil Overlords.  My firm position is that we will not
interfereAC>in any way with the CFJ or CFCJ process.  I believe that
that positionAC>will be adopted by Vulcan as a whole.  On the other
hand, that positionAC>is based on the firm belief that the game is
broken if judges, theAC>Supreme Court, and/or the general populace will
tolerate or indulge inAC>judgements contrary to the rules.
AC>I have not yet seen the afforementioned CFCJs, but they must really
beAC>something.

AC>ThinMan
AC>Evil Overlord

Thank you for this vote of trust; I will do my best to act reciprocally.
In the spirit of this trust, I would like to form an organization called
the Committee for Understanding.  It is my hope that the "Evil
Overlords" and the Rebel alike will join this organization to discuss
the terms of when and under what conditions Vulcan will return the game
to something more resembling the democracy to which we are wont.  In
doing so, I understand that Vulcan is presently in a position to ramrod
anything down Acka's collectinve throat, but I also understand that if
they do so without the support of the average Ackan, and do so blatantly
enough, they could quickly find themselves as the supreme overlords of
nothing, which is an eventuality I think none of us want.

I am proposing that the Committee for Understanding have an open
membership policy: that is, players may join it without the consent of
the rest of the organization.

I support this, and so it happens.

Let's talk.

GF

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:41:23 -0400
From: "Vivian Norwood" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: forthcoming CFCJ's

> I am proposing that the Committee for Understanding have an open
> membership policy: that is, players may join it without the consent of
> the rest of the organization.
> 
>
I wish to join the Committee for Understanding, despite its fluffy name.

As a member of that organization, I wish to formally ask the Vulcan Party
if they will reveal the following so that negotiations can begin on a level
of equal understanding:

1.	How long does the Vulcan Party anticipate remaining in power?

2.	What are the primary, concrete goals which the Vulcan Party would like
to accomplish while in power?

3.	What does the Vulcan Party forsee as being the game state if and until
those goals are met?

Balsamic Dragon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:24:32 -0400
From: [email-masked] (Chuck S Smith)
Subject: Acka: donation

I donate 200 A$ to the Church of Odo on the Wormhole.

	--Whiz

If you reply on Friday (8/29) or later, please reply to
[email-masked] because I will be switching to a new address.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:43:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: I turn my back for 5 seconds and you kids do what?   ; )

> [Dictators in Acka. Hmm...]

> If possible I'd like to becoming a voting member once more.

Hmmm.  Could this be considered synonymous for "I want to take myself off
Vacation"?  Since obviously this is the only way for him to become a Voting
Player from his current state(well, let's say the _easiest_ one, since he
could also leave and rejoin), I shall interpret it as such.  No specific
phrasing is required to take oneself off Vacation, as far as I can tell.

Also, in regards to the earlier question of whether or not vacationing
players could leave the game...Rule 255 states "Nor may they be removed
from the game by any procedure, unless that procedure *explicitly* states
that it applies to vacationing players, or that procedure is part of this
Rule".  Of course, this may not have precedence over Rule 101, which states
that "A player always has the option to leave the Game of Ackanomic".  So
this entire paragraph may just be BWG.  :-/  Oh, well.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Madonna
Current Book--David Brin:Infinity's Shore
I am jealous of the first word in this tagline.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:44:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: I turn my back for 5 seconds and you kids do what?   ; )

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> 
> > [Dictators in Acka. Hmm...]
> 
> > If possible I'd like to becoming a voting member once more.
> 
> Hmmm.  Could this be considered synonymous for "I want to take myself off
> Vacation"?  Since obviously this is the only way for him to become a Voting
> Player from his current state(well, let's say the _easiest_ one, since he
> could also leave and rejoin), I shall interpret it as such.  No specific
> phrasing is required to take oneself off Vacation, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Also, in regards to the earlier question of whether or not vacationing
> players could leave the game...Rule 255 states "Nor may they be removed
> from the game by any procedure, unless that procedure *explicitly* states
> that it applies to vacationing players, or that procedure is part of this
> Rule".  Of course, this may not have precedence over Rule 101, which states
> that "A player always has the option to leave the Game of Ackanomic".  So
> this entire paragraph may just be BWG.  :-/  Oh, well.
> 

Well, I would interpret it as meaing that a payer who is on vacation
cannot be removed from the game, where removed means that he isbeing taken
out of the game by someone or something other than himself.  If a player
were to attempt to leave, meaing voluntarily quit the game, I think the
vacation rule would still try to stop him, only to be squashed flat by
Rule 101.

                                - Vynd

[email-masked]

> 
> --
> --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
> Current Album--Madonna
> Current Book--David Brin:Infinity's Shore
> I am jealous of the first word in this tagline.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:51:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Thierry Joffrain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: I turn my back for 5 seconds and you kids do what?   ; )

>Hmmm.  Could this be considered synonymous for "I want to take myself off
>Vacation"?  Since obviously this is the only way for him to become a Voting
>Player from his current state(well, let's say the _easiest_ one, since he
>could also leave and rejoin), I shall interpret it as such.  No specific
>phrasing is required to take oneself off Vacation, as far as I can tell.

I returned from vacation on August 7 at 0000 hours. I should be currently a
non-voting player.

CnH

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:54:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Let's be Clear About This

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Vivian Norwood wrote:

> > First of all let me say that I would be sad to see you go.  However, if
> > you find the current situation boring, I don't see how it can be Vulcan's
> > fault.  At the moment, game play is essentially unchanged from before the
> > revolution.  Yes, there are dictators now, but we haven't changed
> > Ackanomic into a game of Imperialist Nomic or anything.  We have no
> > intention of simply dictating play from here on out.  The only places
> > where we might be inclined to intervene would be direct attempts to
> remove
> > us from power.  
> 
> Woah, woah, wait a sec.  Realty check here.  I don't want to see anyone
> leave the game either, but saying that nothing has changed, we just have
> ditators now is ridiculous!  Of course the game has changed!  The object of
> this game is, ultimately, to win.  Yes, there is lots of fun to be had in
> the process of game play, but if you can't win, what's the point?  Ultimate
> veto power of any one group means that players are discouraged from trying
> to get away with something clever.  If it gets through, its only because
> the Vulcan party LET it get through.  I have never played imperialist nomic
> before, (though I understand the concept) but I would rather see the
> dictators stand proud and admit who they are then sink behind a curtain and
> only pop out when it pleases them.  The only real problem I will have with
> this game (and your letter swings awfully close predicting this state) is
> if, after a while, the Vulcan Party picks a winner and steps down. 
> 
> Live free or die!
> Balsamic Dragon
> 

I never meant to imply that the gmae has not changed with the
implementation of Vulcan rule.  Certainly things have changed a great
deal.  What I was trying to address was this notion everyone seems to have
that all they can do now is sit around and wait for us to do something
dire.  The Vulcan party has no intention or desire to regulate the
everyday goings on of acaknomic (if there is such a thing).  We're not
going to sit around and discuss every proposal to decide if it is worthy
of passage, or start negating people's actions because we don't like their
face.  Of course, if someone were to try such a straightforward assault on
our power as to try and repeal Vulcan's power out of the rules, we would
respond in some way.  Red Barn said something about how he was afraid
Vulcan would use it's power to make acka run so smoothly as to be
uninteresting, quashing flat any possible crisis.  Again, I have no
intention, and no one in Vulcan has expressed to me the desire, to do any
such things, unless we had good reason to think it was an attempt to
remove us before we feel like it.  Finally, let me reiterate that I see no
reason for the citizen of Acka to be bored because of the recent changes,
as they have just as many options open to them as before.

                                     - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:02:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: I turn my back for 5 seconds and you kids do what?

> I returned from vacation on August 7 at 0000 hours. I should be currently a
> non-voting player.

Unfortunately, I never saw this return message.  I seem to recall having
missed a recent "Potato & Aliens" message, though, so maybe it was around
the same time.  Maybe it got lost like ThinMan's vacation last month.  :-)

The difference between the two is that if you did return, you lost 20
points for multiple quorum failure, and if you didn't, then you've just
been On Ice for a few weeks.  If anyone can provide any evidence that CnH
_did_ return three weeks ago, then I'll happily adjust his score, but for
now I'll assume he is just now returning.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Madonna
Current Book--Terence M. Green:Shadow of Ashland
My hovercraft is full of eels.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:02:27 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Acka: Twins

Has there been any response to my request to become Balsamic Dragon's
Evil Twin or Malenkai's Moronic Twin?  I think I missed it.

VG
putting up with the contrariness of Digests

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:02:27 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Acka:  PCI

As a member of the PCI (and knowing no other place to send this vote)  I
vote yes on IN346.

I also (knowing that this is probably a seeming contradiction) request
membership in Vulcan.

Voting Gnome Buddy
who just this once wants to be in the shadow of the seat of power,  not
under its heal.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:51:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Ambassadorness

> The following was posted on the Internomic mailing list with the
> subject line "Can we get more details on the Ackanomic putsh [sic]?":

> > I would like very much to hear someone speak PRO, CON, and TO the issue.
> > But a bunch of random comments with lots of asides will do just as well.

> I thought Alfvaen's BWG article was good, but did not want to post it
> without permission.  IAC, if anyone has comments of interest to the
> Internomic community, the list is [email-masked].

As the owner of the Big White Gazette, I have consulted with the anonymous
author, "Luke Skywalker", and e would be glad to have details of the putsch
(good name for it, I think)reported accurately elsewhere.

E also inquired as to whether it would be considered a Historical
Dissertation or not.  E is willing to let me have the credit for it, rather
than come forward emself.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Madonna
Current Book--Terence M. Green:Shadow of Ashland
Every string which has one end also has another end.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:50:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Rule 257

> The following players, whose status is NVP, I believe, failed
> to respond to an R 257 message.  The appropriate harfers should do
> the appropriate harfing:

> AZTEC G0D
> Dread Pirate Roberts

Actually, it appears to me that Rule 257 can _only_ be applied to Voting
players.  It looks like we can have an infinite number of Non-Voting
Players who do nothing at all.  Of course, the Evil Tyrannical Ruling Elite
can always make them Undead if they wish...:-)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Madonna
Current Book--David Brin:Infinity's Shore
Let the llama look down the lift shaft.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:14:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: forthcoming CFCJ's

> > I am proposing that the Committee for Understanding have an open
> > membership policy: that is, players may join it without the consent of
> > the rest of the organization.

Sure, I would like to join the Committee for Understanding.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Barenaked Ladies:Born On A Pirate Ship
Current Book--Terence M. Green:Shadow of Ashland
Ketchup and chocolate.  It's a bad idea.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:26:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: New Player (Robert Sevin)

We have another new player joining us here in the realm of Ackanomic,
moving up from observer status.  His name is Daniel Abraham, his email
is [email-masked], and he has chosen(after much deliberation, and
a couple of unsuccessful attempts), Onieros.  I didn't think to ask him
the market research question, but considering that Balsamic Dragon just
sent me a message from his address, I think we can guess that they might
know each other.  :-)

Robert Sevin has been chosen as his mentor.  (I noticed that there is no
explicit mention in the Rules that a player can only mentor one new
player at a time, but game custom seems strongly in favour of this
interpretation...for instance, otherwise one could never "run out" of
mentors, and induct people from outside the mentor pool.)

Let us welcome him to this wild and wacky place we call our own!  (Sorry
about that.  Stop me before I call it 'zany' too.)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Barenaked Ladies:Born On A Pirate Ship
Current Book--Terence M. Green:Shadow of Ashland
Looking for the road map not taken.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:28:37 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Twins

> Has there been any response to my request to become Balsamic Dragon's
> Evil Twin or Malenkai's Moronic Twin?  I think I missed it.

I agree to be Voting Gnome's moronic twin.

Malenkai
ThinMan's Ironic Twin
Alfvaen's Evil Twin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:24:57 -0700
From: **Alexandre Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Cheez-Whiz and PC request

Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:
> 
> >**Alexandre Muniz wrote:
> 
> >> I am initiating construction of a Cheez-Whiz, providing one Processing
> >> Chip for raw materials.
> 
> >Silly me, that was *grapefruit* that needs the pc. I believe I still
> >began construction, but did not supply a processing chip.
> 
> I still think you need a processing chip.  The PC requirement was not part
> of the original Blueprint, but was put there later by /dev/joe, I imagine.
> Maybe they should be in square brackets or something so this confusion
> doesn't arise any further.
> 

The relevant text in the Cheez-Whiz Blueprint, delimited by 
AZPIAZUBLESSCHEEZWHIZ:

AZPIAZUBLESSCHEEZWHIZ
All sentences that follow this one are, or describe, attributes of 
grapefruit, and they conflict with this one. 

Raw materials of 1 processing chips are required.
AZPIAZUBLESSCHEEZWHIZ

The last sentence is placed there by rule 594:

A blueprint may state a requirement of various raw materials. If a 
blueprint does not require raw materials of at least half the number of 
processing chips (rounded up) used in creating the original blueprint, 
then the text ' Raw materials of N processing chips are required.' (with 
N replaced by the minimum number described above) is immediately 
appended to the blueprint, and any other existing requirement of 
processing chips as raw materials in that blueprint is deleted.

This rule does not create a raw materials requirement for a particular 
type of gadget, it merely appends the text to the blueprint, even when 
it is appending the text in a context that causes the result to be 
different from what was intended.

> >> Also, I need Processing Chips. Lots of Processing Chips. Lots and Lots
> >> of Processing Chips. I will buy processing chips for 2 A$ apiece. (If
> >> no-one responds I may increase that.) I want about 20 to start. If
> >> members of the Rebellion want me to use my office in the struggle to
> >> topple the Tyrranical Ruling Elite, I will consider it if you give me
> >> processing chips.
> 
> Although tempted to hold out to increase the price, I'll be easy and
> offer a trade of 15 PC's for 30 A$.
> 

I accept this trade.

#transfer two-star Alfvaen: 30 A$: trade
#transfer Alfvaen two-star: 15 Processing Chips: ditto

> >This may be the first case of the pc "currency" working as intended.
> >(Before whenever pc's were required, the player using them had more than
> >enough for eir purposes.) Take note, Malenkai. PC's Forever!
> 
> Gee, and I was about to submit a Proposal to repeal them when the Acrobot
> was up again.  :-)  With the Crystal Chalice rule gone, the only thing that
> might still require them is the Jukkasjarvi treasure.
> 
> At the very least, I'd like to increase PC requirements for Gadgets and
> Blueprints...
> 

I was thinking about something along these lines. My feeling is that the 
amount of raw materials required to build a gadget should be related to 
the usefulness and desirability of the type of gadget. I was thinking of 
a scientist office of the Assessor, empowered to create gadgets for the 
purpose of auctioning them in order to determine the value of that 
Gadget (which would then be used to determine raw materials.) I have 
nothing against Spellbooks of Chorg, but they should be a lot harder to 
create than Cheez-Whiz. Plus it would be cool to have an official A$ 
value assigned to Gadgets.

**two-star

------------------------------

End of ackanomic digest V2 #271
*******************************