Subject: Ackanomic Digest V2 #206
From: [email-masked] (Ackanomic Digest)
To: ackanomic-digest

Ackanomic Digest        Saturday, July 19 1997        Volume 02 : Number 206

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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:05:20 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Postmaster request

> By the way, in the version of majordomo I'm using, it's easy to set a
> default subject prefix for the list; that is, it could be configured to add
> "Acka:" to the subject line of any message which did not contain it
> already. 

Hmmm, I'm not sure I like the idea of a piece of software changing the
*content* of my posts (and the subject line is game-state-changing
content).  OTOH, the practical benefits may outweigh this philosophical
objection.

Malenkai
feeling wishy-washy tonite

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:39:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Otzma Blueprint

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alexandre Muniz wrote:

> Since the blueprint does not specify different behaviour for the Butler
> if it is Broken, I don't believe this works, (or fails to work,) quite
> as intended. perhaps the blueprint rule should be amended to provide a
> default definition of brokenness. (OTOH, ICOCBW, since I didn't bother
> to look at the rule just now.) Curiously, the butler does not require
> the entities it hands out to be tradeable. Hmm.
> 
> **two-star

I believe that the rules on entities would take precedence in this case,
emaing that while the Butler could be told to hand out non-tradeable
entities, he wouldn't actually be able to do it.  I don't have the
blueprint in front of me, but if it is possible that it's worded so the
player actually has to give things to the Butler before it can hand them
out.  This would, of course, mean that non-tradeable entities could never
make it to the Butler (normaly).  I must say that, while it may be flawed,
I like the idea.  This actually fulfills a need, as we do have people who
like to keep their doors open to the public.

                                 - Vynd

[email-masked]

> 
> 
> Aaron Humphrey wrote:
> > 
> > I am playing my Scientist For A Day Otzma Card.
> > 
> > #award Alfvaen: -20 A$: Rule 1240.14
> > 
> > Here, below, is the collection of text which is a proposed Blueprint for a
> > "Butler":
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:55:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Internomic P342

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Phil Ackley wrote:

> >
> >I voted on all proposals which were presented to me as tied.  I do not
> >remember if 342 was on the list.  I will look for that post, if /dev/joe,
> >with his superior technology, does not find it first.
> 
> 
> Hmm.  Here is the list of tied votes that I found:
> >
> 
> This goes up to P341.  I think what happened was that the proposal results
> for the next batch started coming in and /dev/joe and vynd and Robert Sevin
> voted For P342 with vynd noting that he could be talked into changing his
> vote.  Niccolo Flychuck presented some more facts about P342 and vynd
> changed his vote, causing a tie.  What happened after that, I don't know.
> 
> Any clues from the senate?

I remember changing my vote on this one, yes.  This was the remove
Rishonomic from the voting members list proposal, was it not?  I'm not
sure if the vote ended up tied though, I think perhaps I and one other
voted in favor, then Niccolo explained things such that I changed my vote
to no, and then I'm not sure what the last person did.

                                - Vynd

[email-masked]

> 
> Mr. Lunatic "No Longer the Ambassador" Fringe
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:57:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Otzma Blueprint

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Malenkai wrote:

> > If the Butler is so set, then any player who wishes to may
> > enter that player's Home.
> 
> Hmmm....
> 
> > In addition, the Butler's owner may provide it with an ordered list of
> > entities(which e must own), and set it to distribute these entities to
> > guests.  When the Butler is in "welcoming" mode, it will give one
> > entity to each guest who arrives at it's owner's Home who has not
> > already done so since it was last set to welcome visitors, in the order
> > that was specified by its owner. 
> 
> Hmmm....
> 
> What if one of the entities is the Butler? ;-)  
> 
> I also note that it is my opinion that this Blueprint conflicts with the
> rules, but am hard pressed to press the issue right now.  Unfortunately
> (IMO), it was Platonically destroyed or not destroyed when it was
> created, unlike the old system that required a CFJ.  Perhaps I will submit
> a CFJ with no reasoning.  The real answer, though, is to fix Blueprint
> precedence; to promote them to rules.  I remember this being kicked 
> around awhile back, but don't remember what happened to it.

The restrictions on blueprints and their content are probably too weak
as it is.  Giving the force of rules could, in my mind, have disastrous
consequences.

> 
> IAC, I think this Blueprint is a loophole machine waiting to happen,
> and *hope* it exists ;-)
> 
> Malenkai
> 

                                    - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:59:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Senate decisions (fwd)

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote:

> Here are the results of the senate vote on Internomic proposals 342-345,
> originally posted June 26th to the official list.  Looks like Mr. Lunatic
> Fringe is a criminal again.
> 
> /dev/joe
> 
> Forwarded message:
> > From owner-ackanomic  Thu Jun 26 10:50:18 1997
> > Sender: [email-masked]
> > Precedence: bulk
> > Reply-To: [email-masked]
> > From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <devjoe>
> > Message-Id: <[email-masked]>
> > Subject: Acka: Senate decisions
> > To: ackanomic
> > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:50:04 -0500 (CDT)
> > Content-Type: text
> > 
> > On the issue of making Agora an enemy of ackanomic, the senate has
> > unanimously voted no.
> > 
> > On the internomic proposals, the senate has voted YES on 342
> > (Niccolo Flychuck voted NO) and NO on 343-345 (Robert Sevin voted
> > YES on 343; Vynd voted YES on 344; 345 was unanimous).
> > 
> > /dev/joe
> > 
> 
> 

Heh, ok, then forget I said anything about the matter, as /dev/joe is the
unofficial Senate-harfer, and knows a lot more about these things than I.

                                  - Vynd

jmccoy2umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:05:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Senate decisions (fwd)

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Malenkai wrote:

> > Hmm, yeah, but then Vynd changed his vote.  I thought I remember cases in
> > the past where a senator was allowed to change his vote, so I figured this
> > was good.  Should I understand, then, that Vynd never changed his vote?
> 
> Was the change publically knowable?  It seems that game custom is that
> the result announced by the senate is the actual result; however, if
> Vynd *did* in fact vote no, then the senate either collectively broke
> rule 1001, or was in contempt (or both).  IAC, if this happened a fortnight
> ago, I do not believe it matters, does it, except for the default going 
> to Gaol.  In that case, illegal actions performed by senators in Gaol
> will be retroactively patched assuming those sentences *ended* 14 days 
> ago.  Does anyone wish to submit a CFJ on the matter?
> 
> Malenkai
> who believes CFJs are the coolest part of a nomic game
> 

Grr.  OK, I supose I should have read the entire thread before I started
responding to it.  There was one occasion in the past where I cahnged my
vote on an Internomic proposal.  I am not sure if this was it.  I am sure
that the time I changed my vote was on the proposal to remove Rishonomic
from the list of members, and I did indeed change it from yes to no.  I do
not actually remember, now that I think about it, if my attempt at
changing my vote was made before the results of the voting were already
announced, if it wasn't, then I would imagine it failed anyway.  If
someone could tell me what exactly the proposal was, I will try to
reconstruct events as best I can.

                                - Vynd, Confused Senator

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:33:59 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: MetaMorph - notes and public actions

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Aaron Humphrey wrote:

> > I am attempting to perform the following public action on behalf of
> > MetaMorph:
> > Appoint snowgod as MetaMorph Swinger.
> 
> This may fail, because he's now called "Mr. Lunatic Fringe".  (Of
> course, if he's going to keep naming trinkets after himself,maybe he
> should change his name back.  :-)
> 

In that case I am attempting to perform the following public action on h
behalf of MetaMorph

Appoint Mr. Lunatic Fringe as MetaMorph Swinger

Niccolo Flychuck
member of MetaMorph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Postmaster request

>> As yor-delegate, I am requesting a mailing list for the synod.
>> However, I realize /dev/joe is going soon and that this is probably
>> more trouble than it's worth, so if its a hassle, please feel free
>> to ignore this request.
> 
> As a test for anyone who wants to take over the postmaster office,
> set up a mailing list for the synod, put all the delegates on it
> (Niccolo, Mr. Lunatic, and Rex Mundi), and post the address here so
> people can start using it, and post sub/unsub instructions.  A
> simple little list like that is a good way to check out that
> majordomo (or whatever software you choose to use) is working
> correctly and that you know how to use it.

I am officially unofficially volunteering for the job of Postmaster.
Er, that is to say, I am hereby announcing my intent to volunteer for
the job as soon as it is legal for me to do so.

Hopefully some time this weekend we will have majordomo running on
Muppetlabs. I will set up one or more test lists and post the
addresses and instructions as soon as that happens.

Gorlak has concurred that running mailing lists will not be a
problem. There may be a rough transition period, however, with the
archives. Right now Muppetlabs is a bit short on overall disk
space. More hard drives are being procured (even as I type this), but
it is unclear exactly when they will be installed. I am pressuring
them to do this before the end of July, but we will have to see.

By the way, this also means that I may not be able to go through with
my offer to provide space for storing web pages. Right now it's all up
in the air; we'll have to wait and see. (/dev/joe: how much space does
all the html stuff currently take up?)

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:43:55 -0700
From: **Alexandre Muniz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Postmaster request

Malenkai wrote:
> 
> > By the way, in the version of majordomo I'm using, it's easy to set a
> > default subject prefix for the list; that is, it could be configured to add
> > "Acka:" to the subject line of any message which did not contain it
> > already.
> 
> Hmmm, I'm not sure I like the idea of a piece of software changing the
> *content* of my posts (and the subject line is game-state-changing
> content).  OTOH, the practical benefits may outweigh this philosophical
> objection.
> 
> Malenkai
> feeling wishy-washy tonite

There is the precedent of the Falafel Fallen Off treasure, a clue to 
which was contained in the time stamp in the header of the message in 
which I buried it. When I hear debates about the role of software, 
(majordomo, acrobot, et al.,) in Ackanomic, I am reminded of the scene 
in return of the Jedi when Luke sees Darth Vadar with a mass of 
electronics to keep him alive, and remembers his own cybernetic hand. To 
us, a MUD would be Darth Vadar. Surely, a MUD isn't *that* different 
from a nomic-- the rules can change at a fairly fundamental level, and 
often do in order to balance gameplay. But somewhere, in the automation 
that allows a more and more complex game state, the nomic soul is lost. 
For instance, a MUD could not have CFJ's; the rules and the game state 
are precicely what the computer says they are.
As players, we can only do so much work; and having software help frees 
up time for fun play.  Yet each piece of automation requires some 
inflexibility to be added to the system. In fact, the very problem to 
which Malenkai here is concerned about Alfvaen's solution is created by 
software; we need "Acka:" in the header because so many of us use mail 
readers with filters in order to keep Ackanomic mail separate.

I must admit that I am fascinated with the Dark Side.  Suppose we had a 
LocationBot, perhaps linked to the Map, that allowed players to go to a 
location by clicking on an apropriate spot on the map. I would probably 
use this a lot more than I use the current system, which requires a 
public message every time I move. On one hand, it would allow more 
location dependant playing. (Currently, a player's location is mostly 
irrelevant to the game.) However, to allow a player permission to come 
to one's house, one would have to register permission with LocationBot, 
and some possibilities for creative gameplay would be lost.
 
Therefore:
I am giving any player permission to visit my house on any day of the 
year for which he or she can find a reference in a work or by an artist 
listed on the literature list in R210 "Literature", provided that that 
player quotes that reference in the same public message in which e 
attempts to come to my house, and provided no other player has quoted 
the same work for that purpose.
I'll find some small gift at the time.

**two-star

"Et tu, Hubert?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:00:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jason Orendorff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Museum

re:  contracts
> know this is contradictory to following every rule to a tee, but I also
> think its more practical, pragmatic, and realistic.  I also thinks its more
> for for everyone involved, and I would support any amendment to make a
> system like this official.
	I agree with this sentiment.

- -- 
Chaos

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:27:47 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 429 Verdict

CFJ 429 was judged FALSE.  Didn't someone ask what the point of this
was?

Clerk of the Courts
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Call For Judgment 429
  Subject: Similarity
Initiator: Malenkai
    Judge: mr cwm (selected Jul 13, 1997, 19:10h EDT)
Judgement: FALSE

Statement:

The H similarity of They Might be Slumbering Giants and They Might be
Slumbering Giants is 100.

Malenkai's Reasoning:

Similarity is described by rule 1003, section 4.

mr cwm's Reasoning:

R1003/14(4) states:  "The H similarity between any two Organizations A and
B, is the greater of orgsim(A,B) and orgsim(B,A)."

There is no Rule, Game Custom, or Spirit by which I can rule that TMBSG
and TMBSG is two Organizations.  The H similarity of TMBSG and TMBSG
being, thus, undefined, it cannot be 100.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:33:28 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 437 (MLF)

MLF has been chosen.

Clerk of the Courts
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Call For Judgment 437
  Subject: Similarity II
Initiator: Malenkai
    Judge: Mr Lunatic Fringe (selected Jul 19, 1997, 00:33h EDT)
Judgement: 

Statement:

It cannot be determined with finality whether the Church of Seleya is
eligible for a Seat in the Synod.

Malenkai's Reasoning:

This is not a PWCFJ, although it could easily be reworded to be.  Its 
the situations, and not the wins, that I find intersting, and by making
winning *not* an outcome, the air can be cleared.  This is just for 
fun.

Rule 1303, section 10b, says:

> b. A Church is not eligible for a Seat in the Synod if the total M 
> Similarities with all the Churches which are members of the Synod is
> equal to or greater than 80. 

CFJ 429 established that self-similarity was undefined.  This rule 
establishes eligibility based on, in part, a test that involved calculation
of self-similarity.  Thus the eligibilty cannot be determined with
finality.  What than means, I'll leave to someone else to decide.

Note that none of the other churches, indeed any church, is eligible
either.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:37:38 -0600 (MDT)
From: Aaron Humphrey <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Charge

I am charging karma A$15 for a Classified Ad he is running in the next
issue of the Big White Gazette.

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/)
Current Album--Mike Oldfield:The Killing Fields Soundtrack
Current Book--Robert Jordan:The Dragon Reborn
"Is it a party?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:56:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <devjoe>
Subject: Re: Acka: IN P342-344 (fwd)

Here is the message from the acka-senate list where Vynd changed his vote.
I sent the public notice of the decision with Vynd's earlier vote at
Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:50:04 -0500 (CDT), several hours earlier, at a time
when all senators had cast their votes.

Forwarded message:
> From owner-acka-senate  Thu Jun 26 17:50:16 1997
> Sender: [email-masked]
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:49:22 -0400 (EDT)
> From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
> X-Sender: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: Acka: IN P342-344
> In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

[stuff deleted - quotes from Niccolo Flychuck's reasoning that convinced
Vynd to change his vote]

> Doh.  I forgot that we ahve an Expert in Rishonomic right here, and voted,
> as I said, based on /dev/joe's report.  In light of this information, I am
> now voting NO on P342, if it isn't too late....
> 
> 
>                                 - Vynd, contrite
> 
> [email-masked]
> 
> 

------------------------------

End of Ackanomic Digest V2 #206
*******************************