Subject: Ackanomic Digest V2 #180
From: [email-masked] (Ackanomic Digest)
To: ackanomic-digest

Ackanomic Digest         Sunday, July 6 1997         Volume 02 : Number 180

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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:59:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jason Orendorff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka : Ad Hoc Committees

There has been some question as to which message from Niccolo Flychuck
Alfvaen considered rude.  I suspect it was the one in which Niccolo wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uri Bruck wrote:
> Now it is obvious to me that you have not been reading any of my posts,

	and

> > > > You can use the AMD.
> Once again youi are responding to the wrong point. 

	and

> Please refrain from using that patronizing tone with me.

I would never call a PM and in the past have always responded with an
"E was polite", but I can see how these comments could be construed as
unkind.  Mainly the first two.  I am surprised and pleased that no one
else took these comments the wrong way.  Maybe we're finally getting
used to one another.  :o)

I love this game.

- -- 
Mohammed
coming soon to irc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:05:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jason Orendorff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka : Ad Hoc Committees

> > > You can use the AMD.
> I wrote this in response to how much better hearings are. I pointed
> out that using the dice server [ to make decisions] is even simpler
> than hearings.

But it's easy to see the value added by having a Hearing where a
random determination could provide the same functionality.

I don't think an Ad-Hoc Committee is superior to a Hearing, at least
not in the same monumentally important way.

- -- 
Mohammed
Distant Americans and an American from Honolulu barely escaped from
dozens of dogs.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:10:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jason Orendorff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 422 (Mohammed)

> Call For Judgment 422
>   Subject: Azpiazu Lives?
	I accept this -- dubiously.
	However, I'm going back on the IRC thing; something came up.

- -- 
Mohammed
sorrie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 01:27:31 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Cell Descriptions + Murals

Antimatter is is cell 1000000000000, its walls are green.
fnord is in cell 8675309, its walls are green.
Guy Fawkes is in cell 4545, its walls are green.
Rex Mundi is in cell 96, its walls are green.
Robert Sevin is in cell 82, its walls are harf.
two star is in cell 66, its walls are wall-coloured.

All of the numbers are taken from popular songs (at least popular 
enough for me to have heard them).  I will leave it to the curious
to figure out the songs and which number is the bottom part of a
twin prime :)

Also, as required by the CPPIA rule, there are murals on the Gaol
walls:

The first mural is of a Cheez-Whiz with a red circle with a slash around
it; the net effect if proposal 2209 is accepted.

The next mural is lots of scribbled text, it looks like this "; this 
sentence is then deleted from this rule"; "; this paragraph is then
deleted from this rule"; "this rule is then repealed".  This text is 
scribbled on and on around what looks like the Tower of Bandwidth,
a hand with carpal-tunnel syndrome, or a worn out keyboard -- its hard
to tell.  The net effect if proposal 2208, repeal of {{}}, is accepted.

Malenkai
Acting Gaoler

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 01:33:44 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Repeals

Proposal 2208 -- repeal 346.  This is the {{braces}} rule.  
Proposal 2209 -- repeal 903.  This is the Gumball
Proposal 2210 -- repeal 911.  This is the Trombone
Proposal 2211 -- repeal 913.  This is Parades
Proposal 2212 -- repeal 1230* This is party chess

This should save *everyone* having to look this up.  Please, on repeals,
quote the title to save everyone having to look it up.  Also, vote
no on repeal of {{ }}; everyone uses them and they are much less work
than the alternatives.

Malenkai
Helpful

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:54:42 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Politeness

Not having seen the original message, calling for a Politness Moon, I'm
not sure who made this call, or why.

Niccolo Flychuck

On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Aaron Humphrey wrote:

> And people wonder why Bascule felt he had to leave?
> 
> <sigh>  I hereby call Politeness Moons on Niccolo Flychuck and Vynd.
> 
> (And now I'm really gone, honest...)
> 
> 
> - --
> - --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/)
> Current Album--Indigo Girls:Back On The Bus, Y'all
> Current Book--Dan Simmons:Hyperion
> I'm not gay.  I'm British, and I want a cigarette.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:57:45 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Hearing

I think that these votes should be sent to Count Tabula and not to me. So
everyone who sent the votes to me,please resend to Count Tabula.

Niccolo Flychuck

On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Malenkai wrote:

> A hearing has been called.  The valid responses, and the relevent rule
> are found in the quoted text.  The voting lasts for 3 days.
> 
> > In accordance with section 7 of 1230.8 I am calling a Hearing.
> > The valid responses are "Keep Promotion" and "Dump Propmotion"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 01:55:54 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Dangling

Guy Fawkes and Robert Sevin failed to pray.  A game action, such as
a prayer, is impossible in Gaol unless it is on the list.  A CFJ 
even established that public messages themselves were game actions,
hence the allowance of 3 of them on the list.  IAC, the following
buildings dangle as a result:

AZTEC GOD's house
Revolving Shed [mr cwm]
[Attilla the Pun's House]
Ackanomic House of Pancakes [ThinMan]
two-star's house

Malenkai
dangling harfer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 01:59:02 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Beldin's Pants

> The Beldin's Pants rule has eaten the 'Bascule's vacation lunchbag'.

This is wrong.  /dev/joe pointed out to me that it was donated after
12:00 on Thurs.  The 'loophole surfboard' is eaten instead.

#award museum : -1 loophole surfboard

Malenkai
never mind :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:04:54 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Proposal 2206

On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, John Frederic Mc Coy wrote:

> Ah, still yet another attempt by Nicolo to eliminate the Senate.  I'm
> still pretty new here compared to Niccolo, so I'm starting to wonder just
> how far back these attempts go.  I'm also wondering, well, to put it
> blunty, what is with Niccolo and the Senate?  Why do you hate it so much?
> hardly two weeks have gone by since I started ehre where you didn't either
> try to have it repealed or at least try and remove some of it's powers or
> purposes...

Wildly inaccurate. I never before proposed to eliminate entirely, I
propose to change it, this proposal is in a completely different context
than those proposals I made, and, in fact, is contrary in sprit to most of
them. My previous proposals tried to do a couple of things: set limits on
Senators' terms;  Divide up its roles.
I don't hate the Senate. I don't like the Internomic Interface. I don't
like the fact that Senators don't need to consider re-elections.

This proposal followed a little discussion I had with Malenkai.

Niccolo Flychuck

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:11:05 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Proposal 2212

Is the fighting thing supposed to be some refference to my proposal to
Abolish the Senate. Anyone who would have read my discussion with Malenkai
about Ad Hoc Committees would have known where that proposal came from.

So now Vynd, proposes to repeal all of Party Chess.

Is this some kind of attempt to get back at me?

I'm sorry to see that this is the kind of game we have become.

Seeing this proposal in this context, and in the context of the previous
comments made by Vynd makes seriously reconsider whether I want to remain
a part of this community.

Niccolo Flychuck

On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Acrobot wrote:

> Proposal 2212
> Fight fire with fire
> Vynd
> 
> 
> repeal Rule 1230
> repeal Rules 1230.1 through 1230.21, inclusive
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Ackanomic Voting Digest V2 #109
> **************************************
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:03:51 -0400
From: jordan james <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Acka: Beldin's Pants

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Malenkai [SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent:	Saturday, July 05, 1997 1:59 AM
To:	[email-masked]
Subject:	Re: Acka: Beldin's Pants

> The Beldin's Pants rule has eaten the 'Bascule's vacation lunchbag'.

This is wrong.  /dev/joe pointed out to me that it was donated after
12:00 on Thurs.  The 'loophole surfboard' is eaten instead.

#award museum : -1 loophole surfboard

Malenkai
never mind :)

HAAAAA!!!, HAA bascules legend lives on!
- - karma

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:51:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka : Ad Hoc Committees

On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jason Orendorff wrote:

> There has been some question as to which message from Niccolo Flychuck
> Alfvaen considered rude.  I suspect it was the one in which Niccolo wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uri Bruck wrote:
> > Now it is obvious to me that you have not been reading any of my posts,
> 
> 	and
> 
> > > > > You can use the AMD.
> > Once again youi are responding to the wrong point. 
> 
> 	and
> 
> > Please refrain from using that patronizing tone with me.
> 
> I would never call a PM and in the past have always responded with an
> "E was polite", but I can see how these comments could be construed as
> unkind.  Mainly the first two.  I am surprised and pleased that no one
> else took these comments the wrong way.  Maybe we're finally getting
> used to one another.  :o)

heh, while I might agree that the comments above are impolite, I don't
think they are what Alfvaen had in mind.  he was almost certinly
responding to the message I sent about "Why does Niccolo hate the Senate,"
and none of these quote had anything to do with that.  I think basicaly
Alfvaen was headed out the door and didn't really think through how to do
something like call a Politeness Moon.  I hope he doesn't take that the
wrong way....

> 
> I love this game.
> 
> -- 
> Mohammed
> coming soon to irc
> 

                                   - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 04:19:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Proposal 2212

On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Uri Bruck wrote:

> 
> Is the fighting thing supposed to be some refference to my proposal to
> Abolish the Senate. Anyone who would have read my discussion with Malenkai
> about Ad Hoc Committees would have known where that proposal came from.
> 
> So now Vynd, proposes to repeal all of Party Chess.

I appologize, I wasn't i a very good mood this afternoon.  My computer
went mildly crazy, and the next thing I did after fixing it (and getting
really pissed) was read my email.  I stand by my feelings that the seante
serves a useful purpose, however.  I'll admit that I gave up on trying to
follow the specifics of your discussion with Malenkai.  In general, it
seemed to me that you want more inclusive groups, such as the 7 member
AHCs, with random selection, as opposed to the Senate, which I would have
to admit is one of the most exclusive groups (the Supreme Court being the
most).  Smaller groups, even exclusive groups, are valuable though, they
can get things done faster than larger groups, and if their members stick
around for a long time, they become experienced in what they are dealing
with.  The AHC committees are always going to ahve some element of
confusion invloved in them, I think, because they are likely to include a
few people who had never really cared or given much thought to the matter
that is now at hand.  Not so with the Senate, or groups like it.

So far as your specific proposal goes, let me again say that I don't think
it accomplishes what it ws intended to do.  For one thing, there's what I
assume must be a serious typo in there, where you intend to say that the
possible selections in a hearing default to Yes or No if there aren't any
choices specified, you instead say that if there are choices specified,
they are ignored and the choices are Yes or No.  Your abolishment of the
Senate does not affect the actual offices of the Senators, we would retain
our titles and still be called upon by rules that specifically mention
Senator as opposed to the Senate.  There are other problems as well, or at
least potential problems, like a rule wqith precedence demanding the now
non-exisistant Senate do something.

> 
> Is this some kind of attempt to get back at me?
> 

Well, in a way you could call it that.  I like the Seante, quite a bit.
For as long as I've been in the game, you seem to ahve been attacking it
in one way or another (you're right that you never tried to remove it
entirely before, of course.  My memeory failed me in the heat of the
moment).  In my grouchy mood this afternoon, I saw your proposal as just
another one of these moves on the Senate.  Until recently, I'd never even
had a clue why you thought that it needed changing so badly that you would
submit the same changes over and over, always seeing them defeated.  even
now that I think I might have some basic handle on the whole situation,
this latest proposal seemed very extreme, and entirely without
explanation.  This is probably not true, although the lack of an
explanation has, I think you must admit, characterized some of your
earlier attempts to install term limits or remove duties and/or priviliges
from the Senate.  My proposal to repeal Party Chess, without any
explanation provided, seemed (at the time) a good way to show you what it
was like to see your Senate proposal through my eyes.  I never expected it
to pass, I wasn't even planning on voting for it myself.  I guess I'll
retract it now.  Just as I think the Senate has a role in Acka, is useful,
so is Party Chess.

> I'm sorry to see that this is the kind of game we have become.
> 
> Seeing this proposal in this context, and in the context of the previous
> comments made by Vynd makes seriously reconsider whether I want to remain
> a part of this community.
> 
> Niccolo Flychuck

Once again I apologize.  I, like many of the people playing this game, can
be a little too sensitive at times.  

                                - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 04:20:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: acrobot retraction

#retract proposal 2212

#thanks

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Cell Descriptions + Murals

> Antimatter is is cell 1000000000000, its walls are green.
> fnord is in cell 8675309, its walls are green.
> Guy Fawkes is in cell 4545, its walls are green.
> Rex Mundi is in cell 96, its walls are green.
> Robert Sevin is in cell 82, its walls are harf.
> two star is in cell 66, its walls are wall-coloured.
> 
> All of the numbers are taken from popular songs (at least popular 
> enough for me to have heard them).  I will leave it to the curious
> to figure out the songs and which number is the bottom part of a
> twin prime :)

Well, all the numbers are even but 8675309 and 4545, and the latter is
obviously divisible by 5, so that takes care of the prime question.

The popular songs is another matter, for me at least.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:46:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mitchell Harding <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka : New Harf Swinger 

>I am extending the deadline by three days over the original deadline. 
>This makes the deadline July 6 21:09 GMT
>
>Niccolo Flychuck
>Chess-Umpire

Our new swinger is karma ([email-masked]). Please direct em to the Party
Chess page so e can discover the current game state. 

Robert Sevin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 18:50:31 EDT 
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Acka:  Pathfinder

Today of all days I miss not having access to the web most.  Have any of
you checked out the Pathfinder pictures NASA claims to be from a place
called Mars?  What a wonderful place,  if it really existed.

Voting Gnome

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End of Ackanomic Digest V2 #180
*******************************