Subject: Ackanomic Digest V1 #271
From: [email-masked] (Ackanomic Digest)
To: ackanomic-digest

Ackanomic Digest       Tuesday, October 1 1996       Volume 01 : Number 271

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Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:32 -0600
From: Uncle Sam <[email-masked]>
Subject: ACka: The UW 

Being gone over the weekend I am just now reading all of the mail about the
Underworld strike.  So I apologize if this message is a little late and
people are tired of reading about this subject.  I want to add my comments.

snowgod's message upset me quite a bit.
I was upset because of how I interpreted certain parts of the message.
The Ackanomic President was willing to leave the game and form another just
because certain people weren't playing the way he wanted.  "take their ball
and go home" (IdiotBoy)  I wouldn't have expected this from the President
and I didn't like it!  I'm glad our President will up and leave the game on
a whim.  Maybe he wasn't serious, but I am distressed that he would even
threaten it.

As a member of the Underworld I feel responsible for snowgod's message.  I
thought people were enjoying what was going on.  I thought a little
opposition was FUN.  It brought more excitement to the game.  I didn't know
feelings were being hurt and people were considering leaving.  Did anyone
write me a private email?  Did anyone post their concern of what was going
on? I thought it was part of the game and I was having FUN.  I never
intended to damage or destroy the game.  The Underworld party was simply
trying to make a change.

Well the strike is over and it was not even my decision to end it.  I hope
in the future, members will post that they don't approve of certain things
and then use the rules to move the game in the direction they want.  Luckily
certain members of the Underworld were so kind as to end the strike.  I
would not have been so kind.

I am now officially leaving the Underworld party.  As snowgod said, "Why
Bother?"  No one is having FUN because of what I have done.  So I don't know
why I should be a part of this anymore.

I am concerned for the future of Ackanomic.  I don't know what the
Ackacitizens will do if a group actually tries to destroy what has been
built here.  I enjoy rising to the challenge of an advisary, but I guess
this isn't the case here.

Anyways, I surrender so the ball will stay here and we can all play.

I also would like to add what a wonderful speaker Malenkai is.  He has
always tried to keep this game fun.

Uncle Sam

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:17:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mohammed <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka:  mailing lists

How can I get a list from majordomo of all the available mailing lists?  
I'd like to watch partychess, for example.

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:20:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mohammed <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Proposal 1293

> If a player posts a message to the public forum containing his intent
> to transfer A$ to another player or players, and if that message does
> not specify the transfer of any other entity, then the trade is
> accomplished immediately.  This rule defers to any rule that limits
> the transfer of A$.
	This doesn't work (as I'm sure someone has already pointed out by 
now.)

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:16:54 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
> Here are the voting results for : 1272
>   Proposal 1272 - Sun Sep 22 22:05:50 EDT 1996
>   Acka Day
>   Malenkai  (Randy Hall)

> Proposal FAILS

Before I resubmit this, since we don't know if it failed due to
the strike, would someone prefer a different time zone?  I personally
don't think GMT makes as much sense as EDT, due to the fact that the 
promoter, tabulator,  and cotc are in EDT, but more importantly I think 
the language of proposals will be cleaner if we have a time zone.

Since we may not get a consensus in time zone, how about a straw poll.
I'll put in what the majority (or plurality) votes for.

Comments from those who voted no appreciated:

> 6 NO votes:
>   Niccolo Flychuck       Vulcan               =  40
>   Bash                   Underworld           =  36
>   Guy Fawkes             (None Yet)           =  48
>   Techno                 Underworld           =  24
>   IdiotBoy                                    =   7
>   Uncle Sam              Underworld           =  39

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:34:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <devjoe>
Subject: Re: Acka:  mailing lists

> How can I get a list from majordomo of all the available mailing lists?  
> I'd like to watch partychess, for example.

Send a "lists" command to [email-masked], or read the
postmaster's web page at
http://wilma.che.utexas.edu/~devjoe/acka/postmaster.html
The list of mailing lists on the web page is slightly out of date, but
should have all of the important public lists.

P.S. I hope your house, PF bonds, A$, etc. were well preserved by your
undead.  You left just after we passed the undead rules, and there was
some kind of bug such that your undead remained nameless, so I named the
undead in the proposal that fixed the bug, so that you could get your
stuff back when you returned.  (Searching through proposal archive...
it was proposal 1027).

/dev/joe
Postmaster

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:36:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mohammed <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Proposal 1293

> > If a player posts a message to the public forum containing his intent
> > to transfer A$ to another player or players, and if that message does
> > not specify the transfer of any other entity, then the trade is
> > accomplished immediately.  This rule defers to any rule that limits
> > the transfer of A$.
I guess no one beat me to it.  This rule defers to the rule that defines 
how transfers work on the FM.  So it is ineffectual.

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:38:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mohammed <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: mailing lists

> P.S. I hope your house, PF bonds, A$, etc. were well preserved by your
> undead.  You left just after we passed the undead rules, and there was
> some kind of bug such that your undead remained nameless, so I named the
> undead in the proposal that fixed the bug, so that you could get your
> stuff back when you returned.  (Searching through proposal archive...
> it was proposal 1027).
	I skimmed the new proposals before I returned.  That was very 
thoughtful of you.  I -think- i have all my stuff back.  But I have very 
limited time to commit to ack lately.... thanks.

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:36:35 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  mailing lists

Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote:

> P.S. I hope your house, PF bonds, A$, etc. were well preserved by your
> undead.

His previously haunted items, such as the blue cross and A$, are
updated on the speaker page.  Let me know if I missed anything.

Malenkai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:38:56 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: CFJ 301 (breadbox)

breadbox has been chosen, and has 3 days to accept/decline.

Clerk of the Courts
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call For Judgement 301
  Subject: Newspaper selling
Initiator: IdiotBoy
    Judge: breadbox (selected Sep 30, 1996, 15:40h EDT)
Judgement:

Statement:

It is not possible for a player to sell a newspaper, without permission,
which is not published by his own newspaper.

IdiotBoy's Reasoning:

R891 regulates the production of newspapers.  The third paragraph states
that:

News articles may be posted by the owner of a newspaper, quoting the name of
the newspaper in the article.  Such an article is said to have been
published in that newspaper.

Given the result of CFCJ 115, "posting" must be taken to include sending out
a newspaper by means of private email.   If it were not so, IdiotBoy would
have been found innocent, for he never posted a newspaper article to the
public forum, preferring to distrubte by means of subscription.

R891, paragraph 4 states:

No player may publish articles in a paper she does not own without the
express permission of the owner.

This may be taken to mean that the recipient of a newspaper does not have
the right to redistribute a newspaper which she receives, by any means.
The mere act of posting (sending via email) a copy of a newspaper is
considered publishing.  Resending another's newpaper is publishing that
newspaper.  A clear violation of the rules, if express permission is not
given.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:51:46 -0600
From: Uncle Sam <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails 

At 03:16 PM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>[email-masked] wrote:
>> 
>> Here are the voting results for : 1272
>>   Proposal 1272 - Sun Sep 22 22:05:50 EDT 1996
>>   Acka Day
>>   Malenkai  (Randy Hall)
>
>> Proposal FAILS
>
>Before I resubmit this, since we don't know if it failed due to
>the strike, would someone prefer a different time zone?  I personally
>don't think GMT makes as much sense as EDT, due to the fact that the 
>promoter, tabulator,  and cotc are in EDT, but more importantly I think 
>the language of proposals will be cleaner if we have a time zone.
>
>Since we may not get a consensus in time zone, how about a straw poll.
>I'll put in what the majority (or plurality) votes for.
>
>Comments from those who voted no appreciated:

EDT makes sense to me.  Maybe it does need to be a straw poll and whatever
time zone has the most citizens that is what we will use.

Uncle Sam

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:57:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: IdiotBoy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Malenkai wrote:

> Since we may not get a consensus in time zone, how about a straw poll.
> I'll put in what the majority (or plurality) votes for.
> 
> Comments from those who voted no appreciated:
> 
> > 6 NO votes:
> >   Niccolo Flychuck       Vulcan               =  40
> >   Bash                   Underworld           =  36
> >   Guy Fawkes             (None Yet)           =  48
> >   Techno                 Underworld           =  24
> >   IdiotBoy                                    =   7

I thought I had entered a post-strike vote of YES on this, apparently I
failed to do so.  I would prefer an Eastern US or Central US time zone, but
I'll vote for anything that is well codified.

> >   Uncle Sam              Underworld           =  39
> 

IB
- --
IdiotBoy, as always, dumber than a box of hammers.
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:09:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Malenkai wrote:

> Comments from those who voted no appreciated:
> 
> > 6 NO votes:
> >   Niccolo Flychuck       Vulcan               =  40
> >   Bash                   Underworld           =  36
> >   Guy Fawkes             (None Yet)           =  48
> >   Techno                 Underworld           =  24
> >   IdiotBoy                                    =   7
> >   Uncle Sam              Underworld           =  39

Actually, my no vote was because we have players strung out from Israel 
to Alaska -- I think for most of the year that's a 12 hour split.  And 
while Eastern time does almost fall pretty close to the middle of that 
range (or is that one time zone out into the Atlantic?), it can be an 
inconvenience for players at either end of the range.  The game takes 
place mostly in three- or seven-day jumps, so for the most part it 
doesn't matter, but for duties that must be performed within a certain 
day, such as posting a *ping*, a seven-hour lag could be a bit of an 
inconvenience.  For these matters, I don't see an especial problem with 
the duty being allowed in the time zone it is performed in -- the 
timestamp bears the proper day and time, and exactly when it was 
performed relative to everyone else doesn't really make a whole lot of 
difference (for most things in this game, a few hours doesn't matter).

To cut it short, I think an official time zone might cause more 
inconveniences than it's neatening effects are worth.

Guy Fawkes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:55:23 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

Malenkai,
I don't know if you missed it or not, anyway, I've posted before my
prefference for GMT. My reasoning has nothing to do with officers'
locations. I believe that reasoning to be weak, because officers
change. My prefference for GMT comes simply from the fact that usually,
that information is the  e-mail header, and it makes for the quickest
coversions.
I think that if we have an official time-zone, it might be a convenient
one, within the context of the medium the game takes place in.

Another thing I didn't like about this proposal, was the EDT/EST.
Make it one of the other, but everyone can't be expected to follow the
switch. The date of switching to and from Daylight savings time is not
universal. GMT is never on daylight savings, and is universal.
(got mail to the helpdesk the other from who insised that the mail header
for my ISP should be +0300 because GMT was on summer clock. He got the
summer clock backwards, and was quite wrong about GMT. I ended up routing
a message to myself through a uk server and fwding him the full headers
just to make the point:)

Niccolo Flychuck

 On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Malenkai wrote:

> [email-masked] wrote:
> > 
> > Here are the voting results for : 1272
> >   Proposal 1272 - Sun Sep 22 22:05:50 EDT 1996
> >   Acka Day
> >   Malenkai  (Randy Hall)
> 
> > Proposal FAILS
> 
> Before I resubmit this, since we don't know if it failed due to
> the strike, would someone prefer a different time zone?  I personally
> don't think GMT makes as much sense as EDT, due to the fact that the 
> promoter, tabulator,  and cotc are in EDT, but more importantly I think 
> the language of proposals will be cleaner if we have a time zone.
> 
> Since we may not get a consensus in time zone, how about a straw poll.
> I'll put in what the majority (or plurality) votes for.
> 
> Comments from those who voted no appreciated:
> 
> > 6 NO votes:
> >   Niccolo Flychuck       Vulcan               =  40
> >   Bash                   Underworld           =  36
> >   Guy Fawkes             (None Yet)           =  48
> >   Techno                 Underworld           =  24
> >   IdiotBoy                                    =   7
> >   Uncle Sam              Underworld           =  39
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:03:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mohammed <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

After some thought, I would prefer GMT to EST/EDT.  It'll make Internomic 
easier, I suspect.

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:15:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: IdiotBoy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Uri Bruck wrote:

> Another thing I didn't like about this proposal, was the EDT/EST.
> Make it one of the other, but everyone can't be expected to follow the
> switch. The date of switching to and from Daylight savings time is not
> universal. GMT is never on daylight savings, and is universal.
> (got mail to the helpdesk the other from who insised that the mail header
> for my ISP should be +0300 because GMT was on summer clock. He got the
> summer clock backwards, and was quite wrong about GMT. I ended up routing
> a message to myself through a uk server and fwding him the full headers
> just to make the point:)
> 
> Niccolo Flychuck
> 
I would just like to point out that my proposal to settle on CST (UTC +0600)
was much hurangued becuase it /didn't/ use daylight savings time.  I avoided
it for exactly the reasons which Niccolo has pointed out.  I live to close
to the border with another state in which some counties don't use daylight
savings time (being so close to the edge of zone.)  I'm not sure how this
applies, other than I recognize that Daylight Savings is a plot of The Man
to keep me down.  It's probably also Heresy.

IB  
- --
IdiotBoy, as always, dumber than a box of hammers.
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:04:16 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ackanomic: Prop 1272 Fails

Guy Fawkes wrote:

> but for duties that must be performed within a certain
> day, such as posting a *ping*, a seven-hour lag could be a bit of an
> inconvenience. 

Yes, but the way the machine rule is currently written, it is compromised
by this argument anyway [i believe], because if defers to an official
time zone if we ever get one.

Furthermore, if the scholar follows the rules and posts the date of
the ping in the message, the actual timestamp, or time the e-mail is
delivered does not matter anyway, as long as the web-harfer records
the info properly.

For example, Bascule's mail server was down, and he was able to determine
the Truth.

My rule of thumb has always been that the game should be playable if
you check e-mail at least once every 3 days.  I do not think acka day
compromises that, even in its adjustment of the machine rule.

I guess we've lived without a time zone for so long, we really don't need
one.  The only thing that I believe it actually matters for is the 
magic potato, "Monday" has always been so ambigious, and the timing does
affect scores.  

My goal with the time zone was to eliminate problems like in the magic
potato, or language like the following: "This occurs every thursday
morning, assuming GMT [or whatever]".  Not only is it clunky, it is
inconsistent with other time zone references in the rules.

If every author starts adding language like that, abd used EDT, CST,
etc, or whatever they feel, it will get ugly, IMO.  Sorry, in certain
areas, I'm a standards freak.

Malenkai
god, alot wordier than I expected it to be

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:14:27 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Time Zone again

For the time zone, how about:

When a day or time is specified in the rules or other document, and
the time zone is not specified, the day or time is assumed to be
relative to the officer or player responsible for performing or 
reporting on the activity.  If there is no such player (R 615
notwithstanding), GMT is assumed.

Malenkai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:39:53 -0400
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Goose

Guy Fawkes did not receive the Chartreuse Goose as a result of
CFJ 288.  My mistake, too busy doing too many things at once.

Malenkai
watching the Eagles lose to Dallas

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:08:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: another straw poll

Acka seems to be going down a bit of a sub-game path, so I'm sending this 
to guage personal tastes:

which of the following sorts of games do you enjoy:

1. word games
2. games of luck
3. games of luck/skill
4. games of pure strategy
5. games of logical reasoning
6. trivia
7. anything else (I'm tired now and don't have time to think of any others)

Thank you
- --Guy Fawkes

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End of Ackanomic Digest V1 #271
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