Subject: acka-research-digest V3 #174
From: [email-masked] (acka-research-digest)
To: [email-masked]

acka-research-digest      Tuesday, August 4 1998      Volume 03 : Number 174

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:06:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matt Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Anti-voting

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >If I was to completely hoestly express my feelings on most proposals, I'd
> >vote BAA! about 85% of the time.  The rest of the time it would probably
> >look like I was anti-voting, since I would vote in favor of actually
> >MOVING the game in a new direction.
> 
> Why don't you then?
> 

It requires less bandwidth to abstain.

> If you don't like the way things are going then try to dosomething to
> change that. Just don't criticise those of us who make propoals that take
> the game in a direction you don't like. Also, at the risk of being
> extremely petty and annoying, isn't repealing anti-voting setting the game
> off on a different tack, doing something different?
> 

I'm going to assume that the second sentence should have s/Just
don't/Don't just/.

I only suggest changes that to me seem to provide real value.  I'm not
sure everyone makes those judgements before submitting proposals.  

Repealing anti-voting plays into the hands of the voting fascists. I
think anti-voting provides a conveient smoke screen for those not as
willing to tick people off as I am.  Or those afraid of offending some
elder (note the small e) of the game.  While I don't remember ever
anti-voting, I do remember being afraid of offending Malenkai when I first
joined the game.

I'm in favor of making points scarce tradeable entities, if that happened,
I would be willing to work toward ending anti-voting.

IB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:29:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Anti-voting

>I only suggest changes that to me seem to provide real value.  I'm not
>sure everyone makes those judgements before submitting proposals.  

Point taken. I'm probably not as discriminatory about which proposals I
submit as I could be. I suppose that just boils down to differing ideologies.

>Repealing anti-voting plays into the hands of the voting fascists. I
>think anti-voting provides a conveient smoke screen for those not as
>willing to tick people off as I am.  Or those afraid of offending some
>elder (note the small e) of the game.  While I don't remember ever
>anti-voting, I do remember being afraid of offending Malenkai when I first
>joined the game.

Heheh, yes. Back when I first joined the game I generally just voted for
things I didn't understand if they were from someone like Malenkai. That
was more because I guessed they'd probably be a good thing than because I
was afraid of offending him though

>I'm in favor of making points scarce tradeable entities, if that happened,
>I would be willing to work toward ending anti-voting.

Maybe I'll give that a go then since that sounds like a worthy goal to me
to. A nice change of direction too. :-).

Brie clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:30:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Anti-voting

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Matt Miller wrote:
>Repealing anti-voting plays into the hands of the voting fascists. I
>think anti-voting provides a conveient smoke screen for those not as
>willing to tick people off as I am.  Or those afraid of offending some
>elder (note the small e) of the game.  While I don't remember ever
>anti-voting, I do remember being afraid of offending Malenkai when I first
>joined the game.

I disagree with your first statement, mostly because i don't think that we
really have any voting fascists to fall in the hands of :)

>I'm in favor of making points scarce tradeable entities, if that happened,
>I would be willing to work toward ending anti-voting.

I am afraid I don't see why you feel these two things are linked?
But since you think they are, why not support the anti-voting first and
then gather support for your points change?  Why demand that your change
comes first :)

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:35:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (L'homme a tete de choux)
Subject: Acka: the can of worms floweth over

Brie Clump:

>This is what I do, anyway. In trying to grab
>yourself a few points, as you put it, you are risking that the hard work of
>the proposer will be wated due to a rejection for no reason.

As I intimated before, if a proposal is *really* worth accepting, then it will
get my yes vote.

>Do you think that it is a coincidence that all of
>these submit (or have submitted) proposals far more regularly than average?
>We recognise the ammount of work that can go into proposals and don't want
>to see them fail just so a few people can get some extra points. (Granted,
>quite a few players of this type (e.g., Slakko, K 2, Alfvaen) also support
>anti-voting but I think that the ratio of "regular submitters" to "others"
>is higher on the "repeal anti-voting side of the divide.)

Talk about shooting your own argument down in flames -- in my time at Acka
Slakko, K2 and Alfvaen have been *THE* three most active players.

By your reasoning, this makes anti-voting a good thing.

>True. If everyone anti-voted then it wouldn't work. However, some people do
>not anti-vote because they prefer to see proposals pass and fail on their
>merits.

Obviously the crux of the matter is that we differ about what constitutes
'merit'.

>IIRC, cycle 2 was won by anti-voting. Not that I was around then;

And I imagine the rules looked *eversoslightly* different back then... no?

>Also, predicting the outcome of
>a proposal is generally not too difficult. I am confident that I could
>easily predict above 50% of proposal results and would probably be able to
>get up tto about 80%.

Well done. Now answer me this -- is this a *good* state of affaris?

>A lt of uninteresting proposals are absolutely necessary though. Things
>like small bug fixes are necessary for the continuance of the game.

If they're so banal, you might well ask why should people get points for
proposing them?

>I don't buy that. If people anti-vote on one of my proposals then that is
>because they choose to do so. It is not because there is anything wrong
>with my proposal.

Of course not, because all your proposals are perfect.

(sorry, that wasn't meant to sound so sarcastic, but think how smug that
sentence sounds if you deliberately misread it like I just did)

>in the end the decission as to whether to do so or not rests
>firmly with the voters and not the proposer.

vive la democracie!

IB:

>It is my contention that more proposals in a given batch fail because they
>suck than have ever failed due to true anti-voting.

Well said that man.

>Brie Clump, off to try to find a nomic without anti-voting. Agora maybe??

I'm sure you'll find something else equally pointless to argue about.

>So a proposal that the majority of Acka players who cared wanted to see
>adopted wasn't.

I think you'll find that when the majority votes yes on a proposal, it gets
accepted. It says so in the rules.

Ethelred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 14:05:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: the can of worms floweth over

>Talk about shooting your own argument down in flames -- in my time at Acka
>Slakko, K2 and Alfvaen have been *THE* three most active players.
>
>By your reasoning, this makes anti-voting a good thing.

Just because they have beenthe most active players during your time in the
game doesn't mean that they are the three most active players Acka has had.
I ddon't think anyone could try to seriously argue that Malenkai doesn't
fill that position. And no this doesn't make anti-voting a good thing. I
was merely stating that it might be worth considering that because so many
of those who submit many roposals are against anti-voting this might have
been because they had been stung by it'seffects once or twice.

>>True. If everyone anti-voted then it wouldn't work. However, some people do
>>not anti-vote because they prefer to see proposals pass and fail on their
>>merits.
>
>Obviously the crux of the matter is that we differ about what constitutes
>'merit'.

"Merit" to me is abut the contents of the proposal. This should be all that
matters in whether a proposal gets accepted or not. Surely you can't claim
that whether someone fancied gaining a few points on a proposal or not is
part of the merits of a proposal. Or can you?

>>IIRC, cycle 2 was won by anti-voting. Not that I was around then;
>
>And I imagine the rules looked *eversoslightly* different back then... no?

Maybe so, but I doubt that the ratio of points for anti-voting to proposal
has changed much (I could be wrong, I wasn't around back then). This really
is all that matters when determining if a cycle is winnable by anti-voting.

>>Also, predicting the outcome of
>>a proposal is generally not too difficult. I am confident that I could
>>easily predict above 50% of proposal results and would probably be able to
>>get up tto about 80%.
>
>Well done. Now answer me this -- is this a *good* state of affaris?

No. But I don't think it's a bad state of affairs either. You might as well
ask me "Is it a good thing that the domain that hosts the Acka mailing
lists has a 'p' init's name?" Of course it isn't, but it doesn't do any
harm either.

>>A lt of uninteresting proposals are absolutely necessary though. Things
>>like small bug fixes are necessary for the continuance of the game.
>
>If they're so banal, you might well ask why should people get points for
>proposing them?
>
>>I don't buy that. If people anti-vote on one of my proposals then that is
>>because they choose to do so. It is not because there is anything wrong
>>with my proposal.
>
>Of course not, because all your proposals are perfect.
>
>(sorry, that wasn't meant to sound so sarcastic, but think how smug that
>sentence sounds if you deliberately misread it like I just did)

Then don't deliberately misread things. This argument is getting nasty
enough without people deliberately misinterpretting things or twisting
other people's words.

>>in the end the decission as to whether to do so or not rests
>>firmly with the voters and not the proposer.
>
>vive la democracie!

Absolutely. Democracy is a good thing. All the people voting for whatever
they think best. Marvelous.

>>Brie Clump, off to try to find a nomic without anti-voting. Agora maybe??
>
>I'm sure you'll find something else equally pointless to argue about.

Please.

>>So a proposal that the majority of Acka players who cared wanted to see
>>adopted wasn't.
>
>I think you'll find that when the majority votes yes on a proposal, it gets
>accepted. It says so in the rules.

That is true. However, just because a player wannts to see a proposal
addopted doesn't necessarily mean they will vote yes. Some of them might
anti-vote. And don't say this doesn't happen, because it does.

Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:53:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka - Why #3344?

Any loopholes are unintentional....

K 2

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >As a Newbie, I fail to grasp the purpose of Proposal 3344.  Can someone
> >(like the author) explain what it would do?
>
> Essentially, if it passed it would give one random player a win. Check out
> rule 601.
>
> It's also a very silly proposalas is quite comon here in Acka. I also hhave
> a sneaking suspicion that the author may have some sort of scam planned for
> if it passes, although I can't for the life of me see why.
>
> Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:53:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka - Why #3344?

Hmm, It isn't my intention to use that card in this insatnce, but then it would
be hard to convince anyone of that :) I just wanted a fivillous PW-CFJ to occour.

K 2

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >>It's also a very silly proposalas is quite comon here in Acka. I also hhave
> >>a sneaking suspicion that the author may have some sort of scam planned for
> >>if it passes, although I can't for the life of me see why.
> >       Doesn't he have a Felicitous Populi card?
>
> Why, yes. So e does. That'll be the scam then I suppose.
>
> Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:53:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3355

Oops, I was thinking (for some reason) that this had been linked to CFCJ's....

K 2

Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, K2 wrote:
>
> > JT wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, nomicbot wrote:
> > > >Proposal 3355
> > > >An End To Tyranny
> > > >Slakko (Duncan Richer)
> > >
> > > [Some clippage occured]
> > >
> > > >(3) A deduction of at most 10 points from the score of the transgressor.
> > >
> > > Hrmm.. a deduction of -100000 points would seem to be legal according to
> > > this :).  I think that would be a bit umm.... scammy?
> >
> > Only if no one appealed it during it 4 day cooling off period...
>
> What cooling-off period?
>
> --
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
> Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
> Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Cortex

I figured the assumption of justiceship was implicit...

K 2

Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Thierry Joffrain wrote:
>
> > >I hereby create a Cortex, called "Cortez's Courtly Cortege".
> >
> > With Alfvaen's consent, I will claim ownership of the above undermanned
> > cortex, thereby making it active.
>
> I thought you hadn't made yourself a Justice yet.  You have to do that
> first I believe.
>
> Yours,
> Slakko
> --
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
> Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
> Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka - Why #3344?

Oh, that's me!!!

It's been ages and ages and ages since a successful PW-CFJ has been
perpetrated, if the proposal were to pass a CFJ with the statement "The
action of running around in circles is a player action which affects the
game state and is equally legal and illegal." would have to be ruled true,
Rule 23 prevents it from being a Hubert situation.

See rule 601 for he goss on Paradox Wins....

K 2

Brandon Ray wrote:

> As a Newbie, I fail to grasp the purpose of Proposal 3344.  Can someone
> (like the author) explain what it would do?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:53:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A new observer (fwd)

JT wrote:

> When asked what convinced him to join, he said Vynd,

This would satisy the sponsor clause of Rule 252 wouldn't it?
if so that would mean if Vynd acks Piz's sponsor ship e would recieve a
brand new trinket....

K 2

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Challenge (J. M. Bear)

The Tin Observer.

Wow.

K 2

Mitchell Harding wrote:

> At 01:53 PM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >He was last time I looked. Not that I've checked the rules recently or
> >anything :-).
>
> I'm an expert on the rules. What's the question?
>
> Harf,
> Robert Sevin
> "The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
> when you kill them."
> <http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~mitcharf/index.html>
> Support the Harf Project: <http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~mitcharf/harfproj.html>
> All your questions answered, all your problems solved:
> <http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mitch/ask820/ask820.html>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka RFC: Proposal - The Boring Word

I like the spirit but wouldn't vote for it for the same reasons as
Slakko stated.
'Course as written it would allow a Quirpele Scam to be perpetrated...

K 2
Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Michael Pizolato wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Being a newbie I have not much of a clue so far, so I thought I'd learn the
> > same way I learned to swim. Please comment on the following SPOOT-delimited
> > proposal:
>
> It is a nice idea.  However, it would significantly increase the amount of
> work the Tabulator has to do - as the Tabulator would need to change his
> automatic vote-counting bot to accept whatever new Boring Word becomes
> valid each time someone does it.  A fun idea, though - you're getting into
> the spirit of things.
>
> --
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
> Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
> Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Leaving

Seeing as how everyone else is proxied, This Happens (It Happens tm)

K 2

Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, else...if wrote:
>
> >       Not much point in sticking around here any longer.  I leave Klingon
> > and request admission in SPAM.
>
> I suggest else...if be granted membership in SPAM.
>
> --
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
> Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
> Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proxy

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >I offer that spellbook of chorg back to JT and I also offer the Lay Off
> >card to anybody named Tom Walmsley, and whichever one accepts it first
> >will get it.
>
> In the event that it was offered to me I accept this card from /dev/joe. I
> then offer to trade this same card to any player who is capable of taking
> the name Hubert in exchange for A$7.
>

It is my opinion that no player has ever had the ackanomic name (as
distinct
from real name) of Tom Walmsley, thus (I believe) this trade was
directed at
the RL person Tom Walmsley and thus at Brie Clump, so in summary.... it
happens.

K 2

> Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: really big blue shenanigans

Furthure more I don't beleive there is/ever was a  player with the
Ackanomic
Name (ADFRN) of Eric Plumb so it couldn't work on those grounds
either...

K 2

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >I awake from my torpor and point my RBBTTDDTMR (which, incidentally, is a
> >delightful shade of azure today) at Eric Plumb and press the button marked
> >'ENERGIZE', thus changing eir name to B. Rice Lump.
>
> Fortunately, I don't think that this has any effect since Eric Plumb is no
> longer an unambiguous reference to anyone. It is my former Ackanomic name
> and the real name of another player and so it is not clear who it is
> refering to.
>
> Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Leaving

As a result of Brie Clump and else...if leaving, Klingon has exactly one
member
- - Rex Mundi, who may optionally transfer (as an org action) the A$20 to
emself...

K 2

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> No, I'm not leaving Acka, don't worry (incidentally, if I did would it be K
> 2 or breadbox that ended up as acting speaker. I was trying to remember
> what happened when Malenkai left when he was CotC and Speaker but I
> couldn't. Anyone want to remind me?). I am leaving the Klingon political
> party. I'm growing bored with it :-). I will also note that political
> parties seem to be little more than a way of getting an extra vote every
> now and then; something could probably do with changing in that area. I
> therefore ask at this point if any other currenty existing political
> parties fancy a new member or if any non-alligned players fancy forming a
> new party. If so, get in touch.
>
> Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Veeeery confused newbie!

According to my records, you're "just" an observer, so I spose the first
thing you should do is contact JT (JT <[email-masked]>) and tell
em :
1. your name
2. the ackanomic name you whish to known by
3. the email adress you wish to operate from.

In return you'll get a Brie, A$ 900 a Kaa of land with house and a
mentor (tho you can only keep the mentor for 3 weeks and in some cases
the A$ for less than that ;)

K 2

Bernard El-Hagin wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
>         I don't even know where to start. I'm new here and I'm not
> even sure if this post is supposed to be sent to this list or to one
> of the billion other acka-* lists. Anyway, like most of you I first
> read about Nomic in Scientific American and have never found people
> sick enough to play it...UNTIL NOW!!! I heard that newbies get a
> mentor (hello JF) so I'm begging for one! Hope to join in real soon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rig R. Mortis

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Re: Veeeery confused newbie!

As ownable entities I think they're my job anyway :)

K 2

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >I've never tried doodling with cheese, but I'll try anything once.
> >(I wonder if anyone's gotten any Cheeses recently?  I haven't been
> >keeping track, and I doubt it's my duty anymore anyway...:-)
>
> You can get lost if you think I'm going to do those too. They'll just have
> to wait for JT or K 2. :-).
>
> Brie Clump, acting Speaker.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:54:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proxy

Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote:

> I suggest The Church of Seleya bury all its trinkets as a treasure, with
> the map "This treasure shall be found by whoever /dev/joe says, whenever
> he says it has been found."  I approve of this suggestion.  (JT and
> Brie Clump need to approve.)
> /dev/joe

Do they? I think as founder (specially since Niccolo's proposal passed) it
happens, unless you appraise the org-harfer of sufficient church policy to
determine the required conditions.

K 2

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:10:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A new observer (fwd)

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, K2 wrote:
>JT wrote:
>
>> When asked what convinced him to join, he said Vynd,
>
>This would satisy the sponsor clause of Rule 252 wouldn't it?
>if so that would mean if Vynd acks Piz's sponsor ship e would recieve a
>brand new trinket....

I don't think so at least not as I intended it.  However, I think from a
strict wording of the rules, that might be the case, in which case, I
incorrectly assigned else...if as eir mentor.
Fortunately, it's within 3 days, and easily corrected.
Vynd is the 'real' mentor and does in fact get the rule-mandated trinket.
I will have them on the Trinket Harfer page soon.

Piz, please note the change in your mentor due to me goofing as shown
above.

Your mentor really is Vynd ([email-masked]).

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:17:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brandon Ray <[email-masked]>
Subject: acka cowering in fear

I am sitting here cowering in fear....should we not be expecting the
results of about a gazillion votes Real Soon Now?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:21:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: various things

Micah Smukler wrote:

> If it is possible for me to do so, I join the Anti-Voting
> Preservationist Party; otherwise, I request membership in the
> Anti-Voting Preservationist Party.
>
> I request that somebody clear up my confusion.  K 2 told me that
> when I attempted to convert a swingpoint into 2 points, this
> action failed because I had previously buried all my Swingpoints.

It did.

> This treasure was subsequently found by the Twits, who appear to
> own everything else in it; however, both the player/entity page
> and the Swingpoint report claim that I own Swingpoints; furthermore,
> the report claims that I own 5 Swingpoints, while the pe page says
> I own 6. What's going on?

I did a "re-gen" of the Swingpoint section of the entity log and left
out the transferes involoving "All" entities (as opposed to a particular
entity).

To translate... you have no swingpoints.

> I read the first page of my Spell Book of Chorg.  If the proposal
> entitled "A million household uses" will pass, it vanishes in a
> puff of harf smoke; otherwise, it vanishes in a puff of yellow
> smoke.
>
> I offer my Spell Book of Chorg to else...if.
>
> I go to the library and play the song of a hunchback whale
> on the ASS.
>
> I do not go to *that* room.  I go to *the other* one.
>
> I create an infinite number of nonentities called Brass Razoos.  I
> cause each of the following organizations to own one Brass Razoo:
>
> The Church of the Markovian Dream
> The Church of the Righteous Loophold Surfers
> The Cult of Seleya
> The Aaronic League
> Canine's Tatoo Parlor
> Kerplunk, kerplunk III
> Religious Nutcase
> RexBank
> The Player Sanctioned Organization Preservation Society
> The Treasure Hunting League
> They Might Be Slumbering Giants
> The Anti-Voting Preservationist Party

 At least someone reads my pe/org pages :)

K 2

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:24:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A new observer (fwd)

>I don't think so at least not as I intended it.  However, I think from a
>strict wording of the rules, that might be the case, in which case, I
>incorrectly assigned else...if as eir mentor.
>Fortunately, it's within 3 days, and easily corrected.
>Vynd is the 'real' mentor and does in fact get the rule-mandated trinket.
>I will have them on the Trinket Harfer page soon.
	No!  I'm his mentor! Me! Me!
	Just ignore them Piz.

- --
- -Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:24:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Plumb <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proxy

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, K2 wrote:

> distinct
> from real name) of Tom Walmsley, thus (I believe) this trade was
> directed at
> the RL person Tom Walmsley and thus at Brie Clump, so in summary.... it
> happens.

In this case, I offer A$7 to the player who may legally assume the
Ackanomic name Mr. Tambourine Man in exchange for an Otzma Card of type
Lay Off!.

I note that more "confusion and carnage" seems to have been caused by JT's
possible rejection of the name changes than had he accepted.  At least to
me.

- - Tom Walmsley

yip! yip! yip! yap! yap! yip! *BANG* -- NO TERRIER 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A new observer (fwd)

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote:
>>I don't think so at least not as I intended it.  However, I think from a
>>strict wording of the rules, that might be the case, in which case, I
>>incorrectly assigned else...if as eir mentor.
>>Fortunately, it's within 3 days, and easily corrected.
>>Vynd is the 'real' mentor and does in fact get the rule-mandated trinket.
>>I will have them on the Trinket Harfer page soon.
>	No!  I'm his mentor! Me! Me!
>	Just ignore them Piz.

Being that I was persuaded by K 2 that Vynd was his sponsor and given that
the rules specify that the sponsor becomes the Mentor, I'm afraid you're
not his mentor, else...if.  Unless you want to submit a CFJ or something
to clear it up. :)

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: A small possible problem	

A day or so ago, Robin Hood, a former player decided to rejoin us as an
observer.
Today, he asked to join as the player named Robin Hood.
I'm not sure if that is actually a legal name by rule 348 since Robin Hood
has not been a player for quite a while, but it is the name of a former
player.

Any guidance from folks?

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:16:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A small possible problem 

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, JT wrote:

> A day or so ago, Robin Hood, a former player decided to rejoin us as an
> observer.
> Today, he asked to join as the player named Robin Hood.
> I'm not sure if that is actually a legal name by rule 348 since Robin Hood
> has not been a player for quite a while, but it is the name of a former
> player.

It clearly says "a player may have a name e previously held."  E therefore
can have that name, and for him it will be a legal name.  He cannot
observe as Robin Hood, however.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: acka cowering in fear

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Brandon Ray wrote:

> I am sitting here cowering in fear....should we not be expecting the
> results of about a gazillion votes Real Soon Now?

18 proposals.  But don't worry - breadbox has 3 days from the due dates in
which to post the results.  It depends on how snowed under he is at work.
It isn't that big a deal really.  18 proposals won't generally break the
game.
- -- 
Duncan C. "we hope" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:27:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Intriguing Suggestion

With this elimination of points suggestion, if we are to have an
alternative to simply converting them into A$, we need a new kind of
system.

There was one system I have seen in another Nomic.  It didn't last long
there (it was an Imperial game which was won too quickly), but it suffered
there from too few players.  With Acka's size, it might be a bit more
reasonable.

The idea is that each person is in "thrall" to one other player, or to
no-one.  Cycles of thrall may exist.  Thrall represents some kind of
power, but (unless we want it that way) there is no direct way to exert
it.

Each time you submit a proposal, one name must be sent, in secret, to an
Officer (whether this be the Promoter or someone new, I don't know).  If
the proposal passes, that player becomes "in thrall" to you.  The list of
players in thrall is always public, though.

If you get 60% of the players in thrall, you achieve a Winning Condition.

At the start of a cycle, all thralls are broken.

This simply means: accepted proposals translate into power.

Any comments?

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: A small possible problem 

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:
>> A day or so ago, Robin Hood, a former player decided to rejoin us as an
>> observer.
>> Today, he asked to join as the player named Robin Hood.
>> I'm not sure if that is actually a legal name by rule 348 since Robin Hood
>> has not been a player for quite a while, but it is the name of a former
>> player.
>
>It clearly says "a player may have a name e previously held."  E therefore
>can have that name, and for him it will be a legal name.  He cannot
>observe as Robin Hood, however.

Since an observer is a non-player,it wasn't an issue.  However is says
that a player can have a name he formerly had.  But he isn't a player.
That is what I saw as the possible problem.  I personally have no problem
with him rejoining under the name Robin Hood.  I just wanted to make sure
we wouldn't have a situation like the malenkai/Saaremaa thing of recent
memory.

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Intriguing continued

Another note on the thrall.
It allows us to keep Agendas.
The weights become the number of people you need to have in thrall.
(So scale everything that currently exists down appropriately, say by
dividing by 15 -> 415 (the Magic Number) to ~25-30 (no. of players))

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:44:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Intriguing Suggestion

At 18:27 04/08/98 -0400, you wrote:
>With this elimination of points suggestion, if we are to have an
>alternative to simply converting them into A$, we need a new kind of
>system.

Agreed.

>There was one system I have seen in another Nomic.  It didn't last long
>there (it was an Imperial game which was won too quickly), but it suffered
>there from too few players.  With Acka's size, it might be a bit more
>reasonable.
>
>The idea is that each person is in "thrall" to one other player, or to
>no-one.  Cycles of thrall may exist.  Thrall represents some kind of
>power, but (unless we want it that way) there is no direct way to exert
>it.
>
>Each time you submit a proposal, one name must be sent, in secret, to an
>Officer (whether this be the Promoter or someone new, I don't know).  If
>the proposal passes, that player becomes "in thrall" to you.  The list of
>players in thrall is always public, though.
>
>If you get 60% of the players in thrall, you achieve a Winning Condition.
>
>At the start of a cycle, all thralls are broken.
>
>This simply means: accepted proposals translate into power.
>
>Any comments?

I like it. However:

1. I think that 60% would be too low a figure and too easily obtainable.
80% would probably be better. (Given that quite often players will submit
many consecutive prposals.)

2. What would you propose as a penalty for a rejected proposal? A random
player stops being in thrall to you maybe?

3. What would you suggest for all the other small rewards and penalties?

4. I would suggest a new office be created if we do this. Presumably
however, e would be unable to win by this method. Special compensation
would presumably need to be made for this,otherwise there would be no
motivation for this player to propose things and no penalty for eir
proposal's failing.

5. Above all, it keeps the proposals as a method to win problem which might
not be a good thing.

Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:47:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Walmsley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Intriguing continued

>Another note on the thrall.
>It allows us to keep Agendas.
>The weights become the number of people you need to have in thrall.
>(So scale everything that currently exists down appropriately, say by
>dividing by 15 -> 415 (the Magic Number) to ~25-30 (no. of players))

All you're doing here, essentially, in that case is renaming points. Whilst
I would support something like this I would prefer to see them go completely.

Brie Clump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:52:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Intriguing continued

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >Another note on the thrall.
> >It allows us to keep Agendas.
> >The weights become the number of people you need to have in thrall.
> >(So scale everything that currently exists down appropriately, say by
> >dividing by 15 -> 415 (the Magic Number) to ~25-30 (no. of players))
> 
> All you're doing here, essentially, in that case is renaming points. Whilst
> I would support something like this I would prefer to see them go completely.
> 
> Brie Clump.

Only renaming points in this particular instance.  You can do a lot of
things with thrall you can't easily with points, e.g.

exorcism: pay A$100 to the person you are in thrall to, in order to get
rid of that thrall.
influence: force someone in thrall to you to vote a particular way on a
proposal, and then lose that thrall (this is why I said 60%).
duelling: loser ends up in thrall to the winner, loser's second in thrall
to the winner's second.

The impersonal nature of points prevents all this.

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - Web-Harfer,RuneMaker,ChessUmpire,Map-Harfer - www.ackanomic.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:12:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Intriguing Suggestion

>1. I think that 60% would be too low a figure and too easily obtainable.
>80% would probably be better. (Given that quite often players will submit
>many consecutive prposals.)
	Agreed.  Maybe there should also be a maximum number of players you
can be enthralled to.

>2. What would you propose as a penalty for a rejected proposal? A random
>player stops being in thrall to you maybe?
	How about a random player who voted for it?

- --
- -Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

End of acka-research-digest V3 #174
***********************************