Subject: acka-research-digest V3 #162
From: [email-masked] (acka-research-digest)
To: [email-masked]

acka-research-digest      Thursday, July 23 1998      Volume 03 : Number 162

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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:13:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brandon Ray <[email-masked]>
Subject: Proposal 3311 - math inconsistency?

I take it this is how one posts discussion of a proposal.  If I am doing
this wrong, someone please slap me down (but gently).

I have read all of the proposals, and tried to understand how they
change the current ruleset, on the theory that this will help me start
to understand how the game is currently working.  So far, I believe I
have detected a mathematical inconsistency in Proposal 3311 (I'll Try A
Cooler Scam Next Time).  This is of course without prejudice towards the
author, who I am sure is a fine gentlebeing and no doubt brilliant as
well.

However, it states in this proposal (under "BLAH" delimited text):

     There are never less than 144 Kaas, however.  Kaas are never in the

     Treasury, even if unowned.

     Kaas of Land have positions relative to each other.  They are
square
     in shape, and arranged in a grid pattern, which is itself square.
Thus
     every Kaa is bordered on all 4 sides by another Kaa of land, or by
another
     Location specified by the Rules.

I am therefore envisioning a grid 12 kaas on a side.  12x12 = 144, which
is the minimum number of kaas there can be.  However, later on in the
proposal, it states (also under "BLAH" delimited text):

     Each Kaa can be refered to through the use of a coordinate
     system with The Lonely Mountain at the center.  The coordinates of
a Kaa
     of land are how many kaas to the North, or South, the Kaa is from
The
     Lonely Mountain, prefaced by an N if it is North or an S if it is
South.
     This is followed by a second number, the number of kaas to the East
or
     West the Kaa is from The Lonely Mountain, prefaced by an E for East
or W
     for West.  Thus a Kaa which is 4 kaas North and 3 kaas West of The
Lonely
     Mountain has the coordinates of (N4 W3).  If a kaa is directly East
or
     West of The Lonely Mountain, then the first number of its
coordinates is a
     zero, prefaced by an N.  If a Kaa of Land is directly North or
South of
     The Lonely Mountain, then the second number of its coordiantes is
zero,
     prefaced by a W.  The Lonely Mountain's coordinates are always (N0
W0).

Upon reflecting on this paragraph, I came to realize that a thirteenth
row and column had crept in.  Since the Lonely Mountain is stated to be
"at the center",  and has the coordinates N0 W0, it follows that there
must be a row where N=0 and a column where W=0, so now the entire grid
is 13x13, or 169 kaas in area.  If the row and column I describe does
not exist, then there is no coordinate N0 W0, and the Lonely Mountain
must be located at one of four points:  N1 W1, N1 E1, S1 W1, or S1 E1.
However, in any of these cases, the LM is no longer "at the center" of
the grid, but is slightly offset.  The only way to have the LM at the
center in this situation would be for it to occupy an infinitesimal
point, but then it would not technically have a coordinate on the grid
- -- and even if it did, there would be no locations directly north,
south, east or west of the LM, which are clearly described as being
existent elsewhere in the text of the proposal.

I've taken a lot of space to describe this, but it is not clear to me
that this would have any terrible effect, other than the aesthetic one
of stating that the minimum allowable size for the grid is smaller than
it can, in fact, be.  I haven't formed an opinion as to whether the
overall proposal ought to be adopted (and as I am currently a Non-Voting
Newbie, my opinion may not matter to anyone), but this objection ought
not to keep you from voting for it, if you find it otherwise a good
thing.  But as a matter of aesthetics, it would be nice to see this
inconsistency fixed by another proposal, once this one has been adopted
(if it is adopted).  At the very least, the ambiguity of the LM's
location could conceivably cause problems down the road, in the hands of
some unscrupulous player.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:27:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Proposal 3311 - math inconsistency?

>I take it this is how one posts discussion of a proposal.  If I am doing
>this wrong, someone please slap me down (but gently).
	Nope, this is right.  Welcome to Acka, by the way.

>Upon reflecting on this paragraph, I came to realize that a thirteenth
>row and column had crept in.  Since the Lonely Mountain is stated to be
>"at the center",  and has the coordinates N0 W0, it follows that there
>must be a row where N=0 and a column where W=0, so now the entire grid
>is 13x13, or 169 kaas in area.  If the row and column I describe does
>not exist, then there is no coordinate N0 W0, and the Lonely Mountain
>must be located at one of four points:  N1 W1, N1 E1, S1 W1, or S1 E1.
>However, in any of these cases, the LM is no longer "at the center" of
>the grid, but is slightly offset.  The only way to have the LM at the
>center in this situation would be for it to occupy an infinitesimal
>point, but then it would not technically have a coordinate on the grid
>-- and even if it did, there would be no locations directly north,
>south, east or west of the LM, which are clearly described as being
>existent elsewhere in the text of the proposal.
	Couldn't the grid just not be symmetric?  Couldn't it be:
12
11
...
1
0  LM
- -1
...
- -10
- -11

- --
- -Henry Towsner

	<[email-masked]>

	Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and
enjoy it.
		-Logan Pearsall Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:51:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Proposal 3311 - math inconsistency?

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Brandon Ray wrote:

> I take it this is how one posts discussion of a proposal.  If I am doing
> this wrong, someone please slap me down (but gently).
> 
> I have read all of the proposals, and tried to understand how they
> change the current ruleset, on the theory that this will help me start
> to understand how the game is currently working.  So far, I believe I
> have detected a mathematical inconsistency in Proposal 3311 (I'll Try A
> Cooler Scam Next Time).  This is of course without prejudice towards the
> author, who I am sure is a fine gentlebeing and no doubt brilliant as
> well.

Most certainly not.  He is a rapscallion and a blackguard of the worst
order.  If he wasn't also stupendously incompetent, he would render the
game uninhabitalbe due to his perfidious schemes.

> 
> However, it states in this proposal (under "BLAH" delimited text):
> 
>      There are never less than 144 Kaas, however.  Kaas are square...

>  ...in shape, and arranged in a grid pattern, which is itself square.

> 
> I am therefore envisioning a grid 12 kaas on a side.  12x12 = 144, which
> is the minimum number of kaas there can be.  However, later on in the
> proposal, it states (also under "BLAH" delimited text):
> 
>      Each Kaa can be refered to through the use of a coordinate
>      system with The Lonely Mountain at the center.  The coordinates of
>      of land are how many kaas to the North, or South, the Kaa is from
> The
>      Lonely Mountain...

>   ...prefaced by a W.  The Lonely Mountain's coordinates are always (N0
> W0).
> 
> Upon reflecting on this paragraph, I came to realize that a thirteenth
> row and column had crept in.  Since the Lonely Mountain is stated to be
> "at the center",  and has the coordinates N0 W0, it follows that there
> must be a row where N=0 and a column where W=0, so now the entire grid
> is 13x13, or 169 kaas in area.  If the row and column I describe does
> not exist, then there is no coordinate N0 W0, and the Lonely Mountain
> must be located at one of four points:  N1 W1, N1 E1, S1 W1, or S1 E1.
> However, in any of these cases, the LM is no longer "at the center" of
> the grid, but is slightly offset.  The only way to have the LM at the
> center in this situation would be for it to occupy an infinitesimal
> point, but then it would not technically have a coordinate on the grid
> -- and even if it did, there would be no locations directly north,
> south, east or west of the LM, which are clearly described as being
> existent elsewhere in the text of the proposal.
> 
> I've taken a lot of space to describe this, but it is not clear to me
> that this would have any terrible effect, other than the aesthetic one
> of stating that the minimum allowable size for the grid is smaller than
> it can, in fact, be.  I haven't formed an opinion as to whether the
> overall proposal ought to be adopted (and as I am currently a Non-Voting
> Newbie, my opinion may not matter to anyone), but this objection ought
> not to keep you from voting for it, if you find it otherwise a good
> thing.  But as a matter of aesthetics, it would be nice to see this
> inconsistency fixed by another proposal, once this one has been adopted
> (if it is adopted).  At the very least, the ambiguity of the LM's
> location could conceivably cause problems down the road, in the hands of
> some unscrupulous player.
> 

You're not only correct, but you're the first person to notice this.  I've
submitted this proposal as an RFC (Request For Comments) several times,
and no one brought this up until now.  Typical.

When I wrote this proposal, I knew that it was a virtual certainty that
errors of this sort would show up.  Its an exceptionally long proposal,
and I dare say it took me longer to write it than any other proposal in
the history of Acka.  Still, I don't think this is a serious problem, its
just, shall we say, rather unaesthetic.

While the section you quoted does state that the Lonely mountain is at the
center, under the section of the proposal on maps (and pleae forgive me
for not looking this all up, I'm obviously very lazy), I distinctly
remember saying that the Lonely Mountain should be placed as close as is
practical to the center of the Map of the City.  So thats one possible
solution to this, although I'm not certain I gave the City Map rule any
special precedence.

On the other hand, I am certain that the map of the City could simply be,
as you say, 13 by 13 Kaas.  Or 15 by 15, or any odd number.  The
Map-Harfer will, if/when this proposal is adopted, have discretion as to
reshaping the map, including adding or removing Kaas.  If he feels the
need, he can even author a CSR which would alter the rules, and allow the
Mountain to be slightly offset, or change the minimum number of Kaas.
Even if he didn't choose to exrecise that power right away, if it was ever
the case that the map was paradoxical, unrepresentable under the rules, he
could still use it then.  Indeed, its for possibilities such as those that
I gave him the ability in the first place.

In any event, I don't think this would cause any serious problems, if the
proposal was accepted.  And if it bothers people, then they can always fix
it with their own proposal.  Its been awhile since such a large change was
made ot the rules all at once, I'd say you folks should all regard this as
an opportunity to write easy proposals fixing all my mistakes. :)

                             - The Wages of Sin

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:53:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Meat Loaf

> > And apparently the Rocky Horror Picture Show was really where Meat Loaf's
> > career got started...I just saw it(non-participatively)a year and a half
> > ago now, but that was definitely him.

> I'm even less of a Meat Loaf fan than a Rocky Horror fan, as indicated by
> my next question.  When was Rocky Horror made?  I thought Meat Loaf got
> started in rock operas in early 70s.  As I watched you two playing, the
> only movie I could think of that he was in was Jesus Christ Superstar, and
> since I'd never watch that in a million years I had no idea who else was
> in that one...

Okay.  According to the entry on Meat Loaf in _The Rough Guide To Rock_:
Meat Loaf was in a stage production of "Hair" ca. 1970, and several other
other stage shows thereafter("National Lampoon Road Show", "More Than You
Deserve", and "Never Land").  Jim Steinman had written the last two, and
was also involved in Rocky Horror.  Meat Loaf was in the stage version of
Rocky Horror in 1975, as well as the movie; that date's not listed here,
so I'll have to get up and check it separately.  :-)  Anyway, "Bat Out of
Hell" came out in 1977.

So it's true that "Rocky Horror" was not the first thing in Meat Loaf's
career, but it is certainly listed here as "his break"...

Okay, one of my movie guides definitely lists "Rocky Horror Picture Show"
as a 1975 movie.  So there you have it.

(I just can't picture Meat Loaf in "Jesus Christ Superstar", and don't
remember him in _that_ movie either...)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Les Miserables Soundtrack
Current Book--Ray Aldridge:The Orpheus Machine
At the School of Hard Knocks, I'm the class clown

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:57:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Meat Loaf

> 
> (I just can't picture Meat Loaf in "Jesus Christ Superstar", and don't
> remember him in _that_ movie either...)
> 

I've never watched the movie, I hate musicals with a passion.  I just
happened to notice it in the cable guide at about the same time this round
started, I'm pretty sure he was listed as a star (Jesus?).

                           - The Wages of Sin

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Proposal 3311 - math inconsistency?

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, John Frederic Mc Coy wrote:
>You're not only correct, but you're the first person to notice this.  I've
>submitted this proposal as an RFC (Request For Comments) several times,
>and no one brought this up until now.  Typical.

Truthfully, I'd vaguely noticed this (what me, pay attention to a rule I
might have to deal with? nah :)  I just didn't worry about it because I
usually considered any of the 4 squares in an even numbered grid to be the
'center' and therefore figured any of those 4 would be adequate to satisfy
the grid as described.

>While the section you quoted does state that the Lonely mountain is at the
>center, under the section of the proposal on maps (and pleae forgive me
>for not looking this all up, I'm obviously very lazy), I distinctly
>remember saying that the Lonely Mountain should be placed as close as is
>practical to the center of the Map of the City.  So thats one possible
>solution to this, although I'm not certain I gave the City Map rule any
>special precedence.
>
>On the other hand, I am certain that the map of the City could simply be,
>as you say, 13 by 13 Kaas.  Or 15 by 15, or any odd number.  The
>Map-Harfer will, if/when this proposal is adopted, have discretion as to
>reshaping the map, including adding or removing Kaas.  If he feels the
>need, he can even author a CSR which would alter the rules, and allow the
>Mountain to be slightly offset, or change the minimum number of Kaas.
>Even if he didn't choose to exrecise that power right away, if it was ever
>the case that the map was paradoxical, unrepresentable under the rules, he
>could still use it then.  Indeed, its for possibilities such as those that
>I gave him the ability in the first place.

I would probably not take advantage of this power as Acting Map Harfer,
but would most likely leave it until Slakko returns from vacation so that
he could deal with this as he saw fit.  I will most likely (due to the 10
day great earthquake time constraint) have to create the initial map and
hope that Slakko likes it :)

>In any event, I don't think this would cause any serious problems, if the
>proposal was accepted.  And if it bothers people, then they can always fix
>it with their own proposal.  Its been awhile since such a large change was
>made ot the rules all at once, I'd say you folks should all regard this as
>an opportunity to write easy proposals fixing all my mistakes. :)

Heh.. who us?

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Meat Loaf

> > (I just can't picture Meat Loaf in "Jesus Christ Superstar", and don't
> > remember him in _that_ movie either...)

> I've never watched the movie, I hate musicals with a passion.  I just
> happened to notice it in the cable guide at about the same time this round
> started, I'm pretty sure he was listed as a star (Jesus?).

As if!  I really don't remember him in any major roles(nobody in it was
particularly "Loafy", and I've had the soundtrack to that once for a long,
long time).  Maybe a different version of it, though...

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Les Miserables Soundtrack
Current Book--Ray Aldridge:The Orpheus Machine
'I've got a full gas of tankoline and four good New Year tires.'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:10:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: New players/Pending

As I was going over the current rules and updating the new player info
packet, (BTW, K2, you need to announce the results of the nomination for
Registrar I believe :) I noticed that players are no longer exempt from
being selected from judging CFJ's while they are pending.   I believe
other possible random selections can also now select pending players which
didn't used to be the case.  Not sure if this is a bad thing, but wanted
to make people aware of it since Publius has joined us and thus can do
things :)

I will also note that the whamiols fired when he joined, since he
immediately became an active player upon becoming non-voting. (I noticed
in the point log that this wasn't the case, and figured I'd point it out)

- --JT

[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.                  ]
[ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

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End of acka-research-digest V3 #162
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