Subject: acka-research-digest V3 #88
From: [email-masked] (acka-research-digest)
To: [email-masked]

acka-research-digest       Saturday, May 2 1998       Volume 03 : Number 088

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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 00:45:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Raquel Peres da Silva" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2916 rejected

> >Results of Proposal 2916
> >
> >20/24 votes: Quorum achieved
> >8/16 YES votes: Proposal rejected
> >
> >    NO:
> >ThinMan              (Vulcan)
> >IdiotBoy
> >Ayla
> >K 2                  (MetaMorph)
> >Koxvolio             (Harf)
> >else...if            (Klingon)
> >breadbox
> >Vynd                 (Vulcan)
> 
> >> Proposal 2916 - Wed 22 Apr 1998 07:34 EDT
> >> Fair play in Eleusis
> >> JT (JT Traub)
> >> 
> [text of proposal to allow Deus to act as a Referree with respect to 
> Fair Play awards clipped]
> 
> 
> I am curious as to why you folks objected to this.  It seemed fairly
> straightforward and useful.

It's a shame but I have to admit: this is not the first vote of mine that
surprises myself. I have even checked my "Sent Messages" folder out,
looking for some proof that it was breadbox's fault, not mine. Guess what:
it was not! How embarassing! I guess this copy/paste thing (lazy me, I
know, typing each vote wouldn't break my hand...) is to complex to a simple
mind like this one of mine. I didn't edit the pasted text properly, or
something like that. This, or I'm becoming sclerotic at twenty... oops!
Let's say twenty-something... ;-)

Anyway, sorry. I'll be more carefull from now on.

Yours,

Ayla
Priestess of the Order of the Razor Boomerangs
Priestess of the Church of the Evil Ballot Stuffer

Law of Cat Inertia: A cat at rest will tend to remain at rest, unless acted
upon by some outside force -- such as the opening of cat food, or a nearby
scurrying mouse.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 01:00:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2960

On Fri, 1 May 1998, nomicbot wrote:

> Proposal 2960
> Harfonian Recovery
> Slakko (Duncan Richer)
> 
> {{This is a Modest Proposal.}}
> 
> {{[Some entities are partially recorded, but now gone.  I want to see them
> in the Harfonian with the Widget of Yendor.  This is all self-deleting
> text, to ensure that no null rule is created.]}}
> 
> {{Create Exhibits in the Harfonian Institute for Orbital Mind Control
> Lasers, Electronic Potatoes, Victory Eggplants, Silly Vacation Hats (being
> worn), and the five Keys to the Vault.}}
> 

My "Yes Virginia" proposal would reintroduce Silly Vacation Hats as an
entity (and the Voting Gnome).

                                 - Vynd

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 01:26:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Frederic Mc Coy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2960

On Fri, 1 May 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Fri, 1 May 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:
> 
> > > {{Create Exhibits in the Harfonian Institute for Orbital Mind Control
> > > Lasers, Electronic Potatoes, Victory Eggplants, Silly Vacation Hats (being
> > > worn), and the five Keys to the Vault.}}
> > 
> > I thought that the five keys to the vault still existed.
> 
> I looked long and hard for them - couldn't find them on the P/E page or
> the Undead page.  If they still exist, Alfvaen went and hid them.

"george," the Silver Key, is buried in Treasure 137.

                                - Vynd

[email-masked]

> 
> -- 
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
> Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
> Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 07:50:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2966

> > Repeal rule 1060. [This one looks as if no-one's going to be using it.]
> > 
> 
>   Why not!  As soon as Thring comes back up I'm going to try and set one
> up with that for starters.  
> 
>   And now Internomic has a currency that is a valid destination for a pact
> too...

I've been semi-following the IN discussion going on and it seems that this
rule wouldn't be the best way to go about doing things if it gets in (which
we still don't know it will).

As for Thring I don't know nearly enough about it to make any comments so I
won't.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:38:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal retraction

Aaron V. Humphrey wrote:

> > Damn.. Huberted again :)  I retract prop 2964 if it hasn't already been
> > judged illegal due to the fact that it duplicates (at least in intent
> > and effect if not wording) the recent proposal by K 2.
>
> It's not a clear case of duplication, so it would take a CFJ to render
> it invalid.  Actually, I liked yours better, but maybe that was just
> because K 2's was missing a verb in the first sentence.  :-)

D'oh

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2959

Duncan Richer wrote:

> On Fri, 1 May 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:
>
> > > Proposal 2959
> > > Wolf's Clothing
> > > Slakko (Duncan Richer)
> >
> > Won't this proposal basically make life hell for the financier?
>
> The dispensations must still be performed as organisational actions.  The
> Org-Harfer is responsible for noting when org actions succeed IIRC, and so
> it is really their job - the Financier will only receive info as published
> by the Org-Harfer when such actions succeed, and so won't have to do that
> much extra work.  Besides, SHEEP was formed for the express purpose of
> giving money to people who vote BAA!  Why keep it shackled?

I had thought of writing something similar myself, soon as I had the time to
do it without missing verbs :)

K 2

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Action

> The Church of the Good Ballot Stuffer joins Metamorph.
>
> About time we saw a more than human actually used. I just wonder if they'll
> take us... :-)
>
> TGW.

  Niccolo Flychuck has been attempting to make PPN a member for some time, and
the rules are being manipulated to achieve this effect. Then of course there's
the agenda hat I submitted some time ago....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:38:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2960

George certainly does :)

K 2
whats to love and hug george but doesn't have the earth to give em ;)

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> > {{Create Exhibits in the Harfonian Institute for Orbital Mind Control
> > Lasers, Electronic Potatoes, Victory Eggplants, Silly Vacation Hats (being
> > worn), and the five Keys to the Vault.}}
>
> I thought that the five keys to the vault still existed.
>
> TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:55:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Action

>   Niccolo Flychuck has been attempting to make PPN a member for some time,
and
> the rules are being manipulated to achieve this effect. Then of course
there's
> the agenda hat I submitted some time ago....

Oh, I know *that*. I seem to recall that e was trying to do that back when
the two of us joined back in November. E was having one of those arguments
with ThinMan which eventually led to the CFJ being judged that PPN couldn't
join. And don't think I missed the significance of the proposal that let the
Ambassador get an official message from another nomic. I must admit I don't
recall the agenda hat, though.

Anyhow, I just wondered how you'd react to this, and it looks to me as if
you're all just ignoring it :-).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:01:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Action

We are discussing it on metamorph (away from politically unenlightened minds)

And the Agenda hat hasn't been distributed yet ;)

K 2

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> >   Niccolo Flychuck has been attempting to make PPN a member for some time,
> and
> > the rules are being manipulated to achieve this effect. Then of course
> there's
> > the agenda hat I submitted some time ago....
>
> Oh, I know *that*. I seem to recall that e was trying to do that back when
> the two of us joined back in November. E was having one of those arguments
> with ThinMan which eventually led to the CFJ being judged that PPN couldn't
> join. And don't think I missed the significance of the proposal that let the
> Ambassador get an official message from another nomic. I must admit I don't
> recall the agenda hat, though.
>
> Anyhow, I just wondered how you'd react to this, and it looks to me as if
> you're all just ignoring it :-).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:04:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acka: Org Pages

The org pages are up (and have been for the past 3 days) and can be
accessed from:
http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/

or individually from
 http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/parties.html
 http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/churches.html
 http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/miscorgs.html

hopefully the web harfer will change the link on the main page?

K 2

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:10:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Org Pages

> or individually from
>  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/parties.html
>  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/churches.html
>  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/miscorgs.html
> 
> hopefully the web harfer will change the link on the main page?

E has done already, I was just looking at them.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:17:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Church Action

> We are discussing it on metamorph (away from politically unenlightened
minds)
> 
> And the Agenda hat hasn't been distributed yet ;)

That explains everything then (literally).

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:18:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Org Pages

So e has... serves me right for not clicking the reload button ;)

<Shamelss Plug>
Please take a look at the pages and varify the details are correct.. esp
with regard to proxy.
</Shameless Plug>

Tom Walmsley wrote:

> > or individually from
> >  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/parties.html
> >  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/churches.html
> >  http://home.connexus.net.au/~kii/miscorgs.html
> >
> > hopefully the web harfer will change the link on the main page?
>
> E has done already, I was just looking at them.
>
> TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:28:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Org Pages

> So e has... serves me right for not clicking the reload button ;)
> 
> <Shamelss Plug>
> Please take a look at the pages and varify the details are correct.. esp
> with regard to proxy.
> </Shameless Plug>

Not so much something wrong as some missing info. It might be worth noting
that Klingon only bought there big tent quite a bit after they were formed,
on the same day as they changed their name in fact.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 10:26:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Organisational Disbandments

else...if has eir support proxied for Shell#1-9 so they disband

Duncan Richer wrote:

> I support the disbandment of the organisations Shell#n, where n is
> replaced by any positive integer between 1 and 54 inclusive, except for
> 10.
> --
> Duncan C. "" Richer aka
> Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
> Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
> Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 10:57:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Organisational Disbandments

> else...if has eir support proxied for Shell#1-9 so they disband

About time too.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:07:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2958

On Fri, 1 May 1998, nomicbot wrote:

> 
Proposal 2958
> small reorg
> JT (JT Traub)
> 
> This is a modest proposal.
> 
> Renumber rule 2887 to 1240.X where X is the lowest unused integer for the
> Otzma card rule suite.
> Renumber rule 2888 to 1240.Z where Z is the lowest unused integer for the
> Otzma card rule suite.

Ummm, should I point out that you didn't say positive?

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:12:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT Traub <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2958

>Ummm, should I point out that you didn't say positive?
Umm.. Since the only valid numbers for rules are positive, isn't
that implicit?

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2958

On Sat, 2 May 1998, JT Traub wrote:

> >Ummm, should I point out that you didn't say positive?
> Umm.. Since the only valid numbers for rules are positive, isn't
> that implicit?

No - nothing says that you were giving them legal numbers.  Most people
use "least integer greater than" anyway, which avoids that whole ruckus.

- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc
Acka - President, Web-Harfer, RuneMaker, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Snowgod's Disease

> The proposal modifying hearings yesterday made me the hearing harfer
> for this hearing, and since count tabula never announced it, I will
> do so now.

Oops, sorry.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 17:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Raquel Peres da Silva" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka; Eleusis Game 1 - Round 1 - Else...if's play

> >Well, hinting can affect the Deus' score, as eir score is equal to the
> >highest score of any of the players.  It is therefore in the interest of
> >the Deus to ensure that at least one person guesses the secret rule
early
> >(and ideally for others to not find out until much later).  Allowing
hints
> >would allow a Deus who has picked a "poor" choice of secret rule to
> >improve eir position, something which IMHO is an inappropriate
> >manipulation of the game.
> 
> Well, yes and no.. As long as the hint was public, all the players
benefit
> from the hint and thus you speed up all players of the round, not just
> one.

Although I'm not playing Eleusis Game 1, I want to give my opinion on this,
now that proposal 2970 is about to be voted. I would feel frustrated if I
was ready to declare myself prophet and Deus gave a public hint that
allowed another player to declare emself prophet before I could do it. It's
not as if the other player had thought faster than I. It's like - I think -
when you don't know the correct answer in a exam, so you try to write all
you know about that question, in order to achieve at least some of the
points; then the teacher decides to give a hint to the students, and tell
everybody the things you have just writen, the only things you knew about
that question, and your 1/3 answer turns into nothing.

Yours,

Ayla
Priestess of the Order of the Razor Boomerangs
Priestess of the Church of the Evil Ballot Stuffer

Law of Cat Inertia: A cat at rest will tend to remain at rest, unless acted
upon by some outside force -- such as the opening of cat food, or a nearby
scurrying mouse.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 17:09:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: JT Traub <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka; Eleusis Game 1 - Round 1 - Else...if's play

>Although I'm not playing Eleusis Game 1, I want to give my opinion on this,
>now that proposal 2970 is about to be voted. I would feel frustrated if I
>was ready to declare myself prophet and Deus gave a public hint that
>allowed another player to declare emself prophet before I could do it. It's
>not as if the other player had thought faster than I. It's like - I think -
>when you don't know the correct answer in a exam, so you try to write all
>you know about that question, in order to achieve at least some of the
>points; then the teacher decides to give a hint to the students, and tell
>everybody the things you have just writen, the only things you knew about
>that question, and your 1/3 answer turns into nothing.

Again, this is a valid point and as I did with Slakko's points, all I can
do is respond with the anectdotal evidence of 'I have not seen that to be
the case'.  Usually, if the Deus is resorting to hints, it's because noone
is getting anywhere.  If someone is ready to become prophet chances are they
have made a series or sequence of plays prior to that.  Deus is going to
see that and in that case *not* give a hint since it benefits his score more
to not do so (in the long run).

- --JT

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 18:25:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2969

>> following, as a public action: a) Replace the string "Spelling Bee" in all
>> Rules(including this one), and in any Proposals in the voting queue, with
> 
> Didn't breadbox just make it impossible to change the text of an undecided
> Proposal?  I think that Rule would take precedence over this.

Actually, I submitted a proposal to make it impossible to change the
text of ANY proposal, not just the ones in the queue. But it's still
up for vote, so it may not pass. (But please vote yes.)

BTW, it's really too bad pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis
isn't in the Official Dictionary - this proposal, if any, should have
been prolix.

breadbox
but what about floccinaucinihilipilification?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 20:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2938 accepted

> > Proposal 2938 - Sat 25 Apr 1998 08:31 EDT
> > Theatre Monkeys
> > The Gingham Wearer (Tom Walmsley)

> > This is a modest proposal.

> > Modify section VII of rule 34o to read:

I hate to say it, but...what's "rule 34o"?  Can we read that last "o" as
a "0", or not?

> > "VII. Alphabetical ordering shall be determined by a word-by-word
> > comparison, each word compared letter-by-letter. For these purposes: A word
> > is considered to be delimited by whitespace; an initial word 'The' or 'the'
> > is ignored; a single string of digits is considered equivalent to a letter;
> > digital 'letters' precede alphabetical letters; accented letters come
> > immediately after the unaccented form of the letter; and non-alphanumeric
> > characters are ignored (excluding whitespace used for the purpose of
> > delimiting words, which counts only for this purpose); and case is ignored.
> > All else failing, two words that are otherwise equivalent shall be sorted
> > in ASCII collation order.

> > {{The Gingham Wearer loses two points. Alfvaen gains two points. [He
> > reminded me about the need to do this.]}}

And where's the closing delimiter?

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Song In My Head--Annie Lennox:Little Bird
Current Book--Dick Francis:Hot Money
You can't jump a jet plane like you can a freight train

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 20:36:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2938 accepted

>>> Proposal 2938 - Sat 25 Apr 1998 08:31 EDT
>>> Theatre Monkeys
>>> The Gingham Wearer (Tom Walmsley)
> 
>>> This is a modest proposal.
> 
>>> Modify section VII of rule 34o to read:
> 
> I hate to say it, but...what's "rule 34o"?  Can we read that last "o" as
> a "0", or not?

I see Alfvaen already noticed what I just discovered. (Why doesn't
*anyone* ever notice these things beforehand?)

I think the zero-oh thing is obvious enough for this to count as an
unambiguous spelling error. If anyone disagrees, submit a CFJ.

Once again I ask that players refer to rules by BOTH THE NUMBER AND
THE TITLE in proposals, as it avoids me having to make these kinds of
arbitrary judgement calls.

breadbox
Rule-Harfer

------------------------------

End of acka-research-digest V3 #88
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