Subject: acka-research-digest V3 #56
From: [email-masked] (acka-research-digest)
To: [email-masked]

acka-research-digest      Thursday, April 2 1998      Volume 03 : Number 056

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:22:05 -0500 (EST)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2820

> Proposal 2820
> Hardware Reset
> breadbox (Brian Raiter)
>
> This is a Modest Proposal.
>
> Replace each occurrence of the three-word phrase "said the Tensor" in
> Rule 207.1 ("That's just silly") with the three-word phrase "cows eat
> grass".
>
> {{[Note that I won't get the ten points for this proposal, thanks to
> the Potato Paradox clause. But it might make things interesting on
> April 8th....]}}

This won't have any real effect....

in the (unlikely) case were all putative foolish proposals pass:
2814
2816
2818
2819
2820

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:49:54 -0500 (EST)
From: K2 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2800 accepted

> evil ani-voters ;)
> Vynd                 (Vulcan)
> Rex Mundi            (Klingon)

> > To wake an Elder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 13:27:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2800 accepted

> > evil ani-voters ;)
> > Vynd                 (Vulcan)
> > Rex Mundi            (Klingon)
> 
> > > To wake an Elder

Not necessarily. I thought long and hard about my voting on this one, since
although I wanted to see Balsamic Dragon inducted, I wasn't all that keen on
the method.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 13:27:30 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: New Players (TGW, Hubert)

> > Hahahahahahahahahaha!! You really don't want to do that. I leave Klingon.
I
> > join the Razor Boomerangs and suggest that we kick Hubert out. I then
approve
> > this. Goldenmean has eir approval proxied and Hubert can't vote against
this
> > so it happens. I then suggest the Boomerangs give all their cash to me
and
> > this happens too. I vote against anything to get rid of the boomerangs
open
> > admissions policy. I vote on all proposals in such a way as to stop the
> > Boomerangs getting a unity vote. I then cackle maniacally. I had problems
> 
> All I have to say is: You are _so_ lucky you did this on acka-research.

Come now. I wouldn't actually do that. It'd be mean, and besides, I'd lose my
position as swinger for the Klingon Party. I'm just trying to point out to
you how perhaps it's not such a good move having an open admissions policy,
before someone else really did this to you (and if anyone does now then I
will consider it to be inn very bad taste).

> Didn't you found Klingon in order to stop exactly this kind of thing? :-)

Approximately speaking that was one of my many. I was meaning to right an
article for the Rex Times about why I formed the Klingon party but never got
round to it. Maybe I'll do it for my own paper now that I've got one and the
Rex Times has gone belly up. Or then again, maybe I'll never get round to
it...

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:17:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Sunflare <[email-masked]>
Subject: Question Number Three

[I've been browsing the recent propositions and voting problems
related to such, and from that comes this question.]

What, exactly, do you think is the major difference between the
voting system of modern-day countries [such as America] and the
voting system of Ackanomic?  I'm not talking about elections, as
[at least in America] that's done by electoral colleges.  But why
does the Acka system seem to slip up more [at least recently]?  Which
do you consider better?

Sunflare

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:08:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Guy Fawkes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2824

I think this is a good idea.  I do not, however, think this is a good
proposal.  The idea of a FAQ/encyclopedia to help out new players is
good, but this is one of those things that I believe quite strongly should
NOT be legislated.  If you want something like this, just do it.  The
Rules don't have to tell you to do something to make it legal.  This is
the perfect application of the "permissibility of the unprohibited"
clause.

GF

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:

> Proposal 2824
> Encyclopaedia Ackanomica
> Slakko (Duncan Richer)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:30:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tom Walmsley" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2811

> All player mentioned by their real or Ackanomic name in a publication in
> the real world which also contains the word Ackanomic will gain 20
> points for each such publication.
> 
> Players should submit such occurences to the Speaker (or if the Speaker
> themselves, to the president) for acknowledgement and also to the public
> forum.

I like the idea of this proposal but I'm not sure it would really work.
"Publication" is very vague. I could quite easily engineer it so that my name
appeared in my school magazine along with the word Ackanomic, would that
count? What if I myself printed out fifty copies of a flier containing my
name and the word Ackanomic? What if I made thirty such things, all
different, but only printed them out one time each? Would I gain six hundred
points? What about an internet page, would that count? I'm not sure, but I
think that as it stands this is a bit vague.

TGW.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:36:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Richer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2824

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Guy Fawkes wrote:

> I think this is a good idea.  I do not, however, think this is a good
> proposal.  The idea of a FAQ/encyclopedia to help out new players is
> good, but this is one of those things that I believe quite strongly should
> NOT be legislated.  If you want something like this, just do it.  The
> Rules don't have to tell you to do something to make it legal.  This is
> the perfect application of the "permissibility of the unprohibited"
> clause.

I think the point of this is more that such a job is not really the sort
of thing for a single player.  Different players will have different
concepts of what is appropriate for inclusion in a document of this
nature.  Further, no one person will remember everything with the
necessary degree of clarity, and multiple people will have multiple
opinions as to how the history actually went (motivations and suchlike).
This proposal sets up a truly collaborative effort in documenting the
history of Acka, and hopefully will enable dead harf to be remembered in
such a way that the ruleset can be shrunk without people worrying about
"throwing away" old ideas.  The official nature of this document gives it
a cachet that an R115-related one would not, insofar as an entry put into
this will never be deleted, and should never get lost.
(For example, people might be more inclined to repeal a rule which was
harfy but is now in disuse if the effects of the rule and its history were
preserved officially).

I understand that collaborative efforts can of course be established
without resorting to rules.  However, what I wanted was not merely a
collaboration of 2, 3, even 10 players.  I wanted something where everyone
not only can contribute, but is positively encouraged to do so.  That is
why I put in the 5 point gain for successful submissions - an incentive
for people to provide information (and a partial reward for the time that
they spend).

Also, as I envision it, the Encyclopaedia is not merely a guide for new
players.  I would want it to be a historical document that existing
players could access to learn more about the past, and a way for the
wisdom of the game to pass down the generations.  I wouldn't expect every
newbie to be emailed a copy of the EA - it should grow much faster than
that.

Yours,
Slakko
- -- 
Duncan C. "" Richer aka
Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College
Cambridge, 1st Yr PhD(PMa) - .Nomic Elector, Frgn Minister, HP(Morpork)
Acka - President "Gumball" Web-Harfer RuneMaker ChessUmpire Map-Harfer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:37:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Thierry Joffrain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2811 <- help request

TGW

> I like the idea of this proposal but I'm not sure it would really work.

Ooh. Good objection. I was just <Harf is good!> implementing party
policy <join Harf!> when I wrote this <Harf is best!>.

Perhaps someone has access to the (accepted) english definition of
publication? I think we have a history of following the english meaning
for each word, so if that's still to vague, then I'll retract it.

Thanks,
CnH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:44:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Raiter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2811 <- help request

>> I like the idea of this proposal but I'm not sure it would really work.
> 
> Ooh. Good objection. I was just <Harf is good!> implementing party
> policy <join Harf!> when I wrote this <Harf is best!>.
> 
> Perhaps someone has access to the (accepted) english definition of
> publication? I think we have a history of following the english
> meaning for each word, so if that's still to vague, then I'll
> retract it.

Well, that's just it - "publication" can mean just about anything that
TGW described. There's no clear dividing line.

breadbox

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:45:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2823

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:

> Amend rule 210 ("Literature") by adding the text "or enclosed in
> brackets surrounded by double curly braces [like {{[this]}}]"
> immediately after the text "[like this]" in section B.

You do realize that your added method of citation won't be printed, right?
As far as I can tell, notes don't prevent self-deleting text from applying
itself; I wouldn't consider it a "semantic meaning." (Your addition would
come out to be "...double curly braces [like ]")

Also, you'd have to amend section C, which explicitly states that
quotations are invalid if contained within double curly braces and, due to
coming later in the Rule, takes precedence over B.

I may very well be wrong; just trying to help out.

- -Hubert

668: the Neighbor of the Beast.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:01:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Beldin's Pants

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Duncan Richer wrote:

> > Beldin's Pants may be amended by Beldin's Tailor as described by Rule 939,
> > by the reader of the page "The Secret" from the Ackanomicon as described
> > by Rule 910, by the Praetor, and by any player who owns a Cheez-Whiz and
> > three cheeses.
> 
> This list of how Beldin's Pants may be amended, as given by you under the
> authority of Rule 940, contradicts Rule 104, which specifies that
> proposals may amend rules (including Rule 940 implicitly, as no rules were
> excluded from this property).  Therefore your list has no legal standing.

I agree.  You'd have to include proposals in this.  It seems we've tended
through custom to try not to amend R940 by Proposal (and I'm sure any
Prop which did so (unless it were to remove your additions :-)) would be
voted down FAST) but the way your list stands, I think R102 invalidates
the second sentence of R940, taking your newfound powers away.  I'd change
that if I were you.

Otherwise I see no reason why it can't happen.  

My A$3 (inflation, you know),

- -Hubert

668: the Neighbor of the Beast. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:26:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: public actions

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 [email-masked] wrote:

> i don't no? you can scrape a razor blade across my skin or skrape that
> is which is related to pixies but to me feeling is an electronic impulse
> that monkeys get when they are not doing what they are supposed too.
> 
> You forgot that one when and why the razor cult was established
> intuitvely invented.

Were we just insulted?  I'm not sure.

- -Hubert

Sex on television can't hurt you unless you fall off. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:31:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Towsner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question Number Three

>What, exactly, do you think is the major difference between the
>voting system of modern-day countries [such as America] and the
>voting system of Ackanomic?  I'm not talking about elections, as
>[at least in America] that's done by electoral colleges.  But why
>does the Acka system seem to slip up more [at least recently]?  Which
>do you consider better?
	I don't think it does, at least not relative to how much of it we
do.  In America, 60% is considered good voter turnout during a presidential
year, and we expect much less during off years.  Acka does a lot more
voting, but things still run fairly smoothly.

- --
- -Henry Towsner, AKA else...if, The Fearless Alibi Posesser, Laefu, and Yilran

	<[email-masked]>

	Success is the child of audacity.
		-Benjamin Disraeli

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:33:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 555 (Rex Mundi)

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Tom Walmsley wrote:

>   The rule states "Beldin's Pants may only be amended as described by the
> Praetor."  The word "only" in this sentence is very important; it makes
> this sentence a *restrictive* one, rather than an *empowering* one which
> it would be without the word "only".  Since Rule 101 prohibits rule changes
> in ways other than the rules describe, Alfvaen may not amend rule 940.

I agree that the restrictiveness of "only" would cause 'Vaen's description
to fail if e did not allow entities empowered by the Rules (such as
Proposals or R939) to amend it.  It would probably fail if it did not
include the Spelling Bee and/or CSRs, were those not specifically
excluded by R939. If, however, e includes this in eir description, I fail
to see the conflict.  And yes, R101 does prohibit rule changes in ways
other than the Rules describe.  But R940 explicitly describes the ways in
which it can be amended: as described by the Praetor.  If the Praetor's
description doesn't conflict with rules such as R104 and R939, there
shouldn't be a problem IMHAPWO.

I think this CFJ is temporarily TRUE, for reasons noted by Slakko and
which run somewhat parallel to your reasoning.  But I think all that need
happen is for Alfvaen to amend eir description to allow amendment by
Proposal, and e'll be home free.

Even if this CFJ is judged TRUE because of your reasoning, all that need
happen is for the next to get the Potato, if e is sympathetic to Alfvaen's
endless quest for a Win, to delete the word "only."

- -Hubert

668: the Neighbor of the Beast.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:00:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gavin M. Doig" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2800 accepted

>> > evil ani-voters ;)
>> > Vynd                 (Vulcan)
>> > Rex Mundi            (Klingon)
>> 
>> > > To wake an Elder
>
>Not necessarily. I thought long and hard about my voting on this one, since
>although I wanted to see Balsamic Dragon inducted, I wasn't all that keen 
>on the method.
>
>TGW.
>
That was, in fact, my reason for voting against.

Rex Mundi.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:21:48 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2800 accepted

Gavin M. Doig wrote:
> 
> >> > evil ani-voters ;)
> >> > Vynd                 (Vulcan)
> >> > Rex Mundi            (Klingon)
> >>
> >> > > To wake an Elder
> >
> >Not necessarily. I thought long and hard about my voting on this one, since
> >although I wanted to see Balsamic Dragon inducted, I wasn't all that keen
> >on the method.
> >
> >TGW.
> >
> That was, in fact, my reason for voting against.
> 
> Rex Mundi.
That feeling you get as human, so you can understand it, that feeling of
death.
I still have a Kaa of land and if it did blow away with the striaght
winds, then floating oh so floating is the sacred choa of akanomic.
It is not rubber nor pulpy or ruffage looking. It is a jello bubble
being created by the seeed in the sssand and evil that has planted
itself there.
That feeling when things are silent and dead silence fills the inner
most associated
impulse you get when something is dreatcally wrong and awken a fear by
being afraid.
The elves are coming my way to raise an elder.
And in their triumph to learn the secret dance and dance the dance of
the devil you must first bring a sunbstance that you worship that you
understand its reason for being there. So each jello bubble produced
every five day 23 2/3 bubbles spread and float around only tethered to a
fine strand of gold in which the plant has produced.
If the substance were to react to the situation type of anger or joy,
the glands swell at the base of the side of the pollenateing strands and
heat it up enough to let go a bubble of jello which in effkt taks over
yr hole bode and you bekom yur own anarkist.
Not war kill anarkist but sensible anarkist that grows with nature and
not againsst it.
Then you may raise more thought bubbles to produce different thinking
effects on each thought bubble that swims in your mind produceing many
new situations of joy and splendor creating other demensions and
creating more places for it to spawn in your memory. You look closely
into the mirror and ask yourself 
to harf
or not to be imuetable
that was the answer.

I leave the situation

and take a vacation from myself.

It is your anger or joy that releases the first wave of this plantation.

So ewe decide what happens when you reach a certian state.

The bubbles last 2/3 of a the time in Akanomic on each entity who is
movable.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Wars were their to take away something you don't have.

hoover-2300 dawning on a hat that say's ,"fuck you I won't do what you
tell me!"
            and in finkle color, below it, "vacation chemicals that are
vacationing in vacation land."

{{{((I create a trinket called the sacred choa, choa plant of Akanomic,
it's value at $A23))}}}

So far it has grown from thirty two cat lenghts to 30002003 cat lenghts.

Light here must be strong.

The jellow bubbles produced so far is five still growing and tethered
because it was not taught yet on what to do. Now it knows and reponds to
anything what so ever.
so any thing or no thing could set it off into a flurry of mindless
jibbering because that has been all that it has learned from people
makeing mistakes over their misteaks. the chemical so far it produced
when it entered my circuits.

The bubbles themselves are transparent and invisible so you won't see
them or feel them until they take-over.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:55:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Thierry Joffrain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2811 <- help request

>Well, that's just it - "publication" can mean just about anything that
>TGW described. There's no clear dividing line.

I retract P2811 then.

CnH
who used to just let props fail

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:20:17 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Micah Smukler)
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2823

>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Brian Raiter wrote:
>
>> Amend rule 210 ("Literature") by adding the text "or enclosed in
>> brackets surrounded by double curly braces [like {{[this]}}]"
>> immediately after the text "[like this]" in section B.
>
>You do realize that your added method of citation won't be printed, right?
>As far as I can tell, notes don't prevent self-deleting text from applying
>itself; I wouldn't consider it a "semantic meaning." (Your addition would
>come out to be "...double curly braces [like ]")

This is possible.  However, it doesn't really matter, since that portion
of the proposal has no semantic meaning anyway :-).

>
>Also, you'd have to amend section C, which explicitly states that
>quotations are invalid if contained within double curly braces and, due to
>coming later in the Rule, takes precedence over B.
>

I would say that section C does not apply, since it refers to quotations
in curly brackets, not citations.

You may be right, however.

AtP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:29:09 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Acka: Human Heads Quote

> > I'll have to look through my collection of HUMAN HEADS!
> You wouldn't happen to know Emperor Cartagia, would you?

No; anyone else know where my quote(above)is from?

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Simple Minds:Real To Real Cacophony
Current Book--Jo Clayton:Quester's Endgame
If a Stealth craft crashes in a forest, does it make a sound?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:32:23 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2824

> I think this is a good idea.  I do not, however, think this is a good
> proposal.  The idea of a FAQ/encyclopedia to help out new players is
> good, but this is one of those things that I believe quite strongly should
> NOT be legislated.  If you want something like this, just do it.  The
> Rules don't have to tell you to do something to make it legal.  This is
> the perfect application of the "permissibility of the unprohibited"
> clause.

I agree heartily, myself.  If Slakko wants to sponsor it, maybe e can run
a column in the Infrequent Ackan, with media sponsorship.  :-)

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Simple Minds:Real To Real Cacophony
Current Book--Jo Clayton:Quester's Endgame
You never told me about the hamster in your hair.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:34:32 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Aaron V. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 2811

> I like the idea of this proposal but I'm not sure it would really work.
> "Publication" is very vague. I could quite easily engineer it so that my name
> appeared in my school magazine along with the word Ackanomic, would that
> count? What if I myself printed out fifty copies of a flier containing my
> name and the word Ackanomic? What if I made thirty such things, all
> different, but only printed them out one time each? Would I gain six hundred
> points? What about an internet page, would that count? I'm not sure, but I
> think that as it stands this is a bit vague.

Well, one could leave it up to the Speaker to verify that it is, in fact,
a publication.  I think the deciding factor of a publication should be that
someone else is publishing it.  But then, what about the 25-copy chapbook my
brother printed out of my stories for Christmas?  Unfortunately, I don't
think it says Ackanomic in it anywhere...

- --
- --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/ )
Current Album--Simple Minds:Real To Real Cacophony
Current Book--Jo Clayton:Quester's Endgame
Conform, go crazy, or become a writer.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:43:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Thierry Joffrain <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Human Heads Quote

>> > I'll have to look through my collection of HUMAN HEADS!
>> You wouldn't happen to know Emperor Cartagia, would you?
>
>No; anyone else know where my quote(above)is from?

Knowing that is a three-edged sword.

CnH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 20:02:09 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked] (Micah Smukler)
Subject: Acka: Potato Paradox

I was just wondering:

Why is this a paradox?  To me it seems to be common sense that scoring
for a proposal occurs either infinitesimally before or simultaneous to
the rule changes mandated by the proposal--but, in either case, before
any text in the proposal actually does anything.  Even if this instinct
is insufficient grounds on which to base Game Custom (and it probably is),
would it not be easier to include an explicit clause somewhere stating
when scoring takes place in relation to the changes in the ruleset than
to forbid certain classes of scorings?  Is there a situation which is
paradoxical even when that condition is granted?

AtP

------------------------------

End of acka-research-digest V3 #56
**********************************