Subject: Ackanomic Discussion Digest V2 #9
From: [email-masked] (Ackanomic Discussion Digest)
To: acka-discuss-digest

Ackanomic Discussion Digest   Sunday, March 9 1997   Volume 02 : Number 009

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Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 01:28:01 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: Wager 

>Salutations!

>Due to chess, I post the following.

>Strider-10PFStrider
>Narf+10PFStrider

>Strider

I ack this

Narf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:35:43 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Renaming my houses

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Jason Orendorff wrote:

> I am renaming breadbox's House to Mohammed's Spring Gazebo.
> I am renaming Ackers's House to Mohammed's Summer Igloo.
> I am renaming Robert Sevin's House to Mohammed's Autumn Hammock.
> I am renaming Niccolo Flychuck's House to Mohammed's Winter Mosque.
> Iam renaming Mohammed's House to the Oasis.
> 
> --Mohammed
> (This is governed by Rule 252.)
> 
IMO, there is nothing in R252 that allows this action. I'd like to get
some sort of explanation as to why Mohammed feels this action is legal.

Niccolo Flychuck

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 09:39:24 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Silver key

snwogod wrote:
 
> I am giving the Silver Key to /dev/joe. 

First of all, I do not believe this transfer can occur on
this list.  Secondly, I do not believe it can occur without
an ack from /dev/joe.  Correct me if I'm wrong, otherwise I
will not record it.

Malenkai
Financier

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:43:55 +0000
From: "Matt" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Renaming my houses

Mohammed did speak unto his brethren so:

> I am renaming breadbox's House to Mohammed's Spring Gazebo.
> I am renaming Ackers's House to Mohammed's Summer Igloo.
> I am renaming Robert Sevin's House to Mohammed's Autumn Hammock.
> I am renaming Niccolo Flychuck's House to Mohammed's Winter Mosque.
> I am renaming Mohammed's House to the Oasis.
> 
> --Mohammed
> (This is governed by Rule 252.)

ROFL! I've never got the hang of this wilful misreading of rules. I 
could have read 252 20 times and not spotted this.

Bascule
Lurker

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 11:39:10 -0600
From: john duncan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Renaming my houses

Uri Bruck wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Jason Orendorff wrote:
> 
> > I am renaming breadbox's House to Mohammed's Spring Gazebo.
> > I am renaming Ackers's House to Mohammed's Summer Igloo.
> > I am renaming Robert Sevin's House to Mohammed's Autumn Hammock.
> > I am renaming Niccolo Flychuck's House to Mohammed's Winter Mosque.
> > Iam renaming Mohammed's House to the Oasis.
> >
> > --Mohammed
> > (This is governed by Rule 252.)
> >
> IMO, there is nothing in R252 that allows this action. I'd like to get
> some sort of explanation as to why Mohammed feels this action is legal.
> 
> Niccolo Flychuck

Don't worry. By Mohammeds interpretation of the rule there is nothing to
prevent you from renaming your house, and his as well.

Lestrade

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 09:56:05 -0800
From: Stephen McCulley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka:  Renaming my houses

Uri Bruck wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Jason Orendorff wrote:
> 
> > I am renaming breadbox's House to Mohammed's Spring Gazebo.
> > I am renaming Ackers's House to Mohammed's Summer Igloo.
> > I am renaming Robert Sevin's House to Mohammed's Autumn Hammock.
> > I am renaming Niccolo Flychuck's House to Mohammed's Winter Mosque.
> > Iam renaming Mohammed's House to the Oasis.
> >
> > --Mohammed
> > (This is governed by Rule 252.)
> >
> IMO, there is nothing in R252 that allows this action. I'd like to get
> some sort of explanation as to why Mohammed feels this action is legal.
> 
> Niccolo Flychuck

"A player may change the name of this building [this building refers to
the player's house] by publically announcing the new name and
unambiguously identifying the building they wish to rename."

I believe that Mohammed can only change the name of -his- house.

Strider

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:11:10 -0900
From: Phil Ackley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Silver key 

>snwogod wrote:
>
>> I am giving the Silver Key to /dev/joe.
>
>First of all, I do not believe this transfer can occur on
>this list.  Secondly, I do not believe it can occur without
>an ack from /dev/joe.  Correct me if I'm wrong, otherwise I
>will not record it.
>
>Malenkai
>Financier

I was really unsure as to how to go about transferring a key, to tell the
truth.  I am not sure whether he needs ack it or not, or whether it counts
as a transfer in the normal sense.  Are keys entities?

snowgod
Perhaps I should submit a CFJ?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:21:57 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Acka: RFC 

RFC: A more stable bond market

{{[As I see it, there are 2 major problems with our bonds as they stand now.
 Problem 1, they are only tied to score changes over short periods of time.
 A bond that pays big dividends this week might not next week... this make
all bonds a risky business.  Problem 2, when someone quits, their bonds
become worthless.....]

Replace rule 508 with the following text, delineated by **

**1. Absolute scores: Each player has an absolute score that carries over
from cycle to cycle.  Players actual scores increase at the same time and in
the same manner as their score, with the following exceptions.  When a player
wins a cycle, they gain an extra 25 points to their actual score.  When a
player's actualy score is greater than or equal to 300, their actual score is
divided by 2.

2. Absolute value of bonds: The pfBonds in each players name have an absolute
value, determined in the following manner [if my stock proposal passes, wall
street will dertermine bond values.]  The abolute value of a bond (refered to
as |pf$|) is equal to a players absolute score (refered to as |score|)
multiplied by the %of bonds not owned by that player (refered to as outside
%) divided by 10.  Mathematicaly, the formula looks like this:

                     |score| * outside %
   |pf$| =          --------------------
                                 10

3.  Players may buy and sell bonds to and from each other for any amount they
choose.  Players may buy and sell bonds to and from the treasury for the
|pf$|. [this will freeze the value of undead bonds, allowing you to reoup
some value when they leave the game].

4. Bond yields:  Every 2 weeks, bondowner receive dividends.  The formula for
bond yields is |pf$| / 10.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:37:04 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses 

In a message dated 97-03-08 09:38:26 EST, you write:

> IMO, there is nothing in R252 that allows this action. I'd like to get
>  some sort of explanation as to why Mohammed feels this action is legal.
>  
>  Niccolo Flychuck

Actualy, I agree with Mohammed based on  "... A player may change the name of
this building by publically <sic> announcing the new name and unambiguously
identifying the building they wish to rename."

Narf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:41:28 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses 

In a message dated 97-03-08 12:44:38 EST, you write:

> Don't worry. By Mohammeds interpretation of the rule there is nothing to
>  prevent you from renaming your house, and his as well.
>  
>  Lestrade

I'm not sure about that....

It appears that Mohammed's reading only affected houses named "player's
house"...  and not houses that had been renamed.

Although I don't pretened to speak for the mighty Mo.

Narf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:45:45 -0900
From: Phil Ackley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses 

>In a message dated 97-03-08 09:38:26 EST, you write:
>
>> IMO, there is nothing in R252 that allows this action. I'd like to get
>>  some sort of explanation as to why Mohammed feels this action is legal.
>>
>>  Niccolo Flychuck
>
>Actualy, I agree with Mohammed based on  "... A player may change the name of
>this building by publically <sic> announcing the new name and unambiguously
>identifying the building they wish to rename."
>
>Narf

I tend to agree to.  By granting a playerthe option of changing the name of
the building by "unambiguously identifying the building they wish to
rename" there is an implication that a  player can rename more than his own
building.

snowgod

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:12:46 -0500 (EST)
From: mr cwm <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: RFC

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997 Narf wrote:

>RFC: A more stable bond market
>
>{{[As I see it, there are 2 major problems with our bonds as they stand now.
> Problem 1, they are only tied to score changes over short periods of time.
> A bond that pays big dividends this week might not next week... this make
>all bonds a risky business.  Problem 2, when someone quits, their bonds
>become worthless.....]
>

I haven't been very active in the bond market, so maybe I don't have the
most valuable perspective on this, but I don't see either of these things
as problems.  Variability in dividends makes things interesting, and I'd
guess (someone with time on their hands could probably find out for sure)
that they don't really vary *that* much.  I think everyone knows that
pfmr, for example, will yield small positive returns.  And if they don't,
that's the risk one takes.  Same thing with people leaving the game.  It
wouldn't even occur to me that pfThinMan, for example would become
valueless that way, but I'd be more careful buying pfVynd (for example, no
offense intended, and don't take that as financial advise).

- -mr cwm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:14:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph W. DeVincentis" <devjoe>
Subject: Re: Acka: RFC

> RFC: A more stable bond market

> Replace rule 508 with the following text, delineated by **
> 
> **1. Absolute scores: Each player has an absolute score that carries over
> from cycle to cycle.  Players actual scores increase at the same time and in
> the same manner as their score, with the following exceptions.  When a player
> wins a cycle, they gain an extra 25 points to their actual score.  When a
> player's actualy score is greater than or equal to 300, their actual score is
> divided by 2.

How are you planning to initialize the Absolute scores?  Start them all at 0
when this takes effect, or all equal our current scores when this takes
effect, or equal to all the points we've ever scored?  This would be bad,
because Malenkai's cumulative score would be almost 2000, and mine over
1200, while most players would have something like 50 to 600.  (See
http://wilma.che.utexas.edu/~devjoe/acka/cumscore.html and add the current
scores.) 

>                      |score| * outside %
>    |pf$| =          --------------------
>                                  10
> 
> 4. Bond yields:  Every 2 weeks, bondowner receive dividends.  The formula for
> bond yields is |pf$| / 10.  

Well, *this* will get players to trade bonds. :-)

If Malenkai and I were to swap all of our PFbonds with each other, we'd
collectively pull in over A$2500 every two weeks under this plan. :-o

Admittedly, you might want to start with just our cuurent scores, but still,
6 months and 3 cycles later, those players who have been around all that time
will have bonds earning a large steady income even if the players basically
stop playing, so long as they've traded their bonds with other similar
players.

Maybe just make the "absolute scores" equal to the points scored in the
current and previous cycles at all times?

> 3.  Players may buy and sell bonds to and from each other for any amount they
> choose.  Players may buy and sell bonds to and from the treasury for the
> |pf$|. [this will freeze the value of undead bonds, allowing you to reoup
> some value when they leave the game].

OK, you need to specify that bond promissories can also be sold to the
treasury, though (or perhaps get rid of promissories entirely and convert
the existing ones back to bonds).

One thing I wanted to do was provide some way to recreate the missing bonds --
for instance, some bonds of current players were owned by the ZZimsy undead
and destroyed recently.  If you do this, make a self-deleting clause which
creates in the treasury PFbonds/promissories for each player/undead so that
there are a total of 100 in existence for each player/undead.  Then add
to the above that bonds in the treasury may be bought by any player for
1.1 * |pf$|.

One last note, this will make more work for the Bond Harfer, so it needs
to be worthwhile if we're going to implement it.

/dev/joe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:36:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Jason Orendorff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997 [email-masked] wrote:
> It appears that Mohammed's reading only affected houses named "player's
> house"...  and not houses that had been renamed.
	That isn't how I read the rule.  I just picked out players who 
hadn't named their houses because I didn't want to rename a house that 
had already been thoughtfully decorated and named.

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:51:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Jason Orendorff <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses

> I tend to agree to.  By granting a playerthe option of changing the name of
> the building by "unambiguously identifying the building they wish to
> rename" there is an implication that a  player can rename more than his own
> building.
	I agree (naturally).  I'll submit the CFJ.

- --Mohammed

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 23:56:30 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Jason Orendorff wrote:

> > I tend to agree to.  By granting a playerthe option of changing the name of
> > the building by "unambiguously identifying the building they wish to
> > rename" there is an implication that a  player can rename more than his own
> > building.
> 	I agree (naturally).  I'll submit the CFJ.
> 
> --Mohammed
>
I disagree, and I just submitted a couple of CFJ to that effect.

Niccolo Flychuck

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:40:01 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: RFC 

In a message dated 97-03-08 16:16:10 EST, you write:

> How are you planning to initialize the Absolute scores?  Start them all at
0
>  when this takes effect, or all equal our current scores when this takes
>  effect, or equal to all the points we've ever scored?  This would be bad,
>  because Malenkai's cumulative score would be almost 2000, and mine over
>  1200, while most players would have something like 50 to 600.  (See
>  http://wilma.che.utexas.edu/~devjoe/acka/cumscore.html and add the current
>  scores.) 

I was planning to start them all at 0 when this cycle ends.  Of course, I
left that out of the RFC, along with the note that when you |score| reaches
300 and halves, your stock also splits.

>If Malenkai and I were to swap all of our PFbonds with each other, we'd
>collectively pull in over A$2500 every two weeks under this plan. :-o

Would you be so comortable doing that if Idiot Boy's "controlling interest"
proposal passes?  I should mention, I suppose, that I won't propose this plan
until something like that one goes through.

>One last note, this will make more work for the Bond Harfer, so it needs
>to be worthwhile if we're going to implement it.

Agreed... and I think this IS a worthwile plan...  But perhaps the Bond
Harfer deserves a raise....  lol

Seriously though... there are some big whopping holes in this idea... but
overall I think conceptualy it is strong.

Narf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:41:30 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: Renaming my houses 

In a message dated 97-03-08 16:40:27 EST, you write:

> > It appears that Mohammed's reading only affected houses named "player's
>  > house"...  and not houses that had been renamed.
>  	That isn't how I read the rule.  I just picked out players who 
>  hadn't named their houses because I didn't want to rename a house that 
>  had already been thoughtfully decorated and named.
>  

And this is why I don't want to try speaking for him <grin>

Hmmm...  Anyone gonna CFJ this action?

Narf

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 22:23:28 -0500
From: Malenkai <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: Silver key

snowgod wrote:

[about trading the key]

> I was really unsure as to how to go about transferring a key, to tell the
> truth.  I am not sure whether he needs ack it or not, or whether it counts
> as a transfer in the normal sense.  Are keys entities?

According to the rule creating the keys, they are tradeable.  Tradeable
means an ack is required to trade them (I put that in the original
tradeable rewrite just to handle this sort of thing).  The entity
rewrite basically grandfathers anything that does not explicity say
its an entity as long as there is some sort of custom or spirit that
the thing is entityish.  I think its obvious that the keys are
tradeable entities, therefore you get rid of it by trading it with
someone who wants it, with the added stipulation (I believe, and I
do not have the time to check, I'm hungry), that the recipient must
be eligible to receive it.  Is it possible, however, due to the byzantine
(I absolutely love that word) twists in that rule, that something else
is afoot :), but I stand on disallowing the giving it to /dev/joe.  If
you CFJ, the transfer will occur retroactively if it was judged that
your play was legal.

Malenkai
Expert on Entites and Financial Matters

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:01:33 -0600
From: Mitchell Harding <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 352 (Robert Sevin) 

I regretfully decline to judge the CFJ.

Robert Sevin

At 10:12 PM 3/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Robert Sevin has been chosen.
>
>Clerk of the Courts
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Call For Judgement 352
>  Subject: Renaming Houses III
>Initiator: Mohammed
>    Judge: Robert Sevin (selected Mar 08, 1997, 22:13h EST)
>Judgement:
>
>Statement:
>
>A player may rename another player's home.
>
>Mohammed's Reasoning:
>
>[none provided]
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:50:12 -0500 (EST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 349 (Narf) 

I accept this.  <shudder>

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End of Ackanomic Discussion Digest V2 #9
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