Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Neatening up - English
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 04:30:25 -0400 (EDT)

> A. English
> 
> In all cases, the meaning of a term in the rules that is not specified as
> having a specific meaning shall have the meaning granted to it by common use
> of the english language and the context surrounding the use of the word.

We'd better not enact this unless we are prepared to go through the entire
ruleset and catch every single slip-up first.  Right now our usage is
quite inconsitant.  And even then our rules will start to look like
they've been written in German.

I used to always capitalize defined words, back at about the time when I
joined Berserker; but I don't like to do this so much anymore because it
makes me feel like I'm shouting.

Everything else in your proposal I am willing to support.

I think that most of the defined-word/natural-word confusion could be
avoided if we are just more careful to define our terms when we propose
rules.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 14:49:09 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Dan's megaprop
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Dan,

	With all due respect, I've got enough problems with enough pieces of this=
 proposal that I've come up with an alternative form for it below, which=
 I'd like to offer you.  I've made it an A La Carte Prop, breaking it into=
 separate items.

	While I admire the effort you put into your proposal, I'm still prepared=
 to vote no on the whole thing in its current form because it repeals Rule=
 0.  Rule 0 was created in response to a general agreement that a safety=
 net was needed, since there was no provision otherwise to deal with either=
 a paradox or the loss of the Administrator.  I'm not prepared to give it=
 up yet, and I'd be surprised if most of the other players were. (see Item=
 8 below)

	In your Definitions section, I believe your definition of "non-Beings"=
 would include Gremlins, which are designed to make changes to the game=
 state.  Forbidding non-Beings from changing the game state might mess a=
 few things up.  I added a piece to the last sentence. (see Item 2 below)

	I moved the change to Rule 25 into the same item as the new rule=
 describing Administrator duties.  Given the duties rule, is Rule 25 still=
 necessary, especially in your amended form?  Perhaps replacing the text of=
 Rule 25 with the text of your new duties rule would be more efficient.=
 (see Item 4 below)

	I'm uncomfortable with the Rule 14 change.  If forfeiting means=
 withdrawing consent, does withdrawing consent mean forfeiting? (see Item 5=
 below)

	I've added my suggested definition of Charter Rules in place of your=
 placeholder.  I think it'll cover Society Charters, and also something I'm=
 working on called Offers. (see Item 6 below)

	Chutzpah was created to give subclasses of priority to rules, so that it=
 was not necessary to explicitly state when one rule takes priority over=
 another (which can get confusing with the Less is More trend).  Having two=
 classes of rules -- physical and mutable -- is nice, but is it truly=
 sufficient? (see Item 9 below)

	Regarding the change to Rule 152: Why take out proposals as a mechanism=
 for changing the game state?  Or are you considering proposals actions?=
 (see Item 10 below)

						Glotmorf

Alternate proposal form:

{{ __Introducing Physical Law__

This is an A La Carte Prop.

{{ _Item 1_

Give to the following Rules the designation "Physical Law"
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 22, 153, 154, 205, 206, 207, 210,
213, 215, 216, 258, 259, 293, 295, 298, 301, 344, 346, 347, 349, 350, 351,
352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 394, 401, 405, 407, 408, 440, 441, 443, 466, 469,
493, 494, 495, 497, 498, 502, 503, 504, 546, 547, 549, 550, 577, 628, 635,
622, 696, 705, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753.

Give to the following Rules the designation "Mutable Rule"
0, 9, 10, 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 124,
125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 150, 151, 152, 155, 204, 208, 209, 211, 212, 214,
216, 217, 255, 257, 262, 263, 294, 300, 358, 393, 395, 396, 403, 404, 436,
437, 573, 578, 580, 625, 626, 627, 629, 630, 631, 633, 536, 697, 698, 699,
700, 701, 704, 706, 746.

Enact the following new rule and make it a "Physical Law" 
{{
__Rule Classes & Permissions__
There exist three types of rules: Physical Laws, Mutable Rules, and
Charter Rules.

Physical Laws take precedence over all other rules.  Mutable Rules take
precedence over Charter Rules.

All entities defined or regulated by the Physical Laws by obey the
Physical Laws.  An action is impossible if it is prohibited by the
Physical Laws.

Players, the Administrator, and any other self-willed entities are
required to obey the Mutable Rules. An action is illegal if it is
prohibited by the Mutable Rules.

Obeyance to the Physical Laws does not exempt an entity subject to the
Mutable Rules from any requirement in either body of rules.

Charter Rules are of lower precedence than Physical Laws or Mutable Rules.
Players are not required to obey Charter Rules except as specified in the
Mutable Rules.  Non-player entities are not required to obey the Charter
Rules.

}}

Revise rule 18 by replacing "Ruleset" with "Mutable Rules" in the first
paragraph.

}} [[ End of Item 1 ]]

{{ _Item 2_

This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if=
 Item 1 fails.

Revise rule 13 "Definitions" by revising it to read as follows: 
{{ 

A player is any entity who is capable of passing the Turing test, consents
to said designation as a player, has become a player in the manner
described in the rules, and who consents to be abide by the Mutable Rules.

A being is any entity which is either a Player or the Administrator. 

A Proposing Entity, or PE, is any entity which is capable of issuing a
Proposal. 

Beings may make changes to the rules and game state.  Non-beings may not,=
 except as specified in the rules.
}}

}} [[ End of Item 2 ]]

{{ _Item 3_

Revise rule 21 "Score" by amending it to read as follows:
{{
Players may own points. The number of points in the posession of a player
shall be known as eir score. 

The owner of one or more points may transfer any or all points in eir
possession to another legal owner by posting to the public forum.  

Whenever a rule states that a Player receives points, the number of points
in eir possession shall be increased accordingly; whenever a rule states
that a player loses points, the number of points in eir possession shall
be lowered accordingly, but it shall never become less than zero.

New players initially do not possess any points.
}}

}} [[ End of Item 3 ]]

{{ _Item 4_

This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if=
 Item 1 fails.

Revise rule 25, "The Administrator" by amending it to read as follows: 
{{ 
The Administrator may make changes to the Rules and the Game State in=
 accordance with eir duties as specified in the Rules.  The Administrator=
 is subject to the Mutable Rules.
}}

Enact the following new mutable rule:
{{
__Duties of the Administrator__

The Administrator is responsible for all game duties not assigned by the
Rules to other players.

The Administrator shall alter the rules and the game state only as
follows:

E shall update the game state to reflect actions legally taken and
rules-defined game events.

E shall create and distribute points when called upon to do so
by the Mutable Rules.

E shall alter the rules and game state as formally requested to do so by
players via procedures defined in the mutable rules.

If no players exist or it has become demonstrably impossible to make
changes to either the Physical Laws or the Mutable Rules e shall make such
changes to the rules and game state as are nescessary to ensure that
future play is possible.

}}

}} [[ End of Item 4 ]]

{{ _Item 5_

Revise rule 14 by appending the following:
{{
Forfeiting is equivalent to withdrawal of consent.
}}

Revise rule 10 by changing it to read as follows: 
{{ 
A player who refuses to obey the Rules is assumed to have withdrawn eir
consent.  E should be given a reasonable opportunity to correct eir
actions before this assumption is made.

If a player attempts to take an action that would violate the Rules the
Administrator or relevant minister shall refuse to recognize that action
unless the player specifically states that e is aware the action is
illegal but will attempt it anyway. 
}}

}} [[ End of Item 5 ]]

{{ _Item 6_

This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if=
 Item 1 fails.

Enact the following new mutable rule:
{{ 
__Charter Rules__

A Charter Rule applies to a subset of game entities, whether explicitly=
 named or specified by a set of characteristics.  A Charter Rule may=
 include methods for adding entities to or removing entities from the=
 Charter Rule's applicability.

}}

}} [[ End of Item 6 ]]

{{ _Item 7_

This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if=
 Item 1 fails.

Revise rule 32 by appending the following to the third paragraph:
{{
Unless specified otherwise in the proposal, any new rule created is a
Mutable Rule.
}}

}} [[ End of Item 7 ]]

{{ _Item 8_

Repeal rule 0

}}

{{ _Item 9_

Repeal rule 33

}}

{{ _Item 10_

Amend rule 152 by revising it to read as follows:
{{
Changes to the state of the game may only be made by an Action which is
permitted (elsewhere) by the Mutable Rules, or by the Administrator
performing eir duties.
}}

}} [[ End of Item 10 ]]

{{ _Item 11_

Amend rule 395 by deleting the first paragraph

Amend rule 154 by appending the following to the second paragraph:
{{
Players have an attribute named Respect.  Respect is a Dimension.
}}

}} [[ End of Item 11 ]]

}} [[ End of Proposal ]]

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 14:59:02 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Neatening up - English
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 4:30 AM Dan Waldron wrote:

>> A. English
>> 
>> In all cases, the meaning of a term in the rules that is not specified=
 as
>> having a specific meaning shall have the meaning granted to it by common
>use
>> of the english language and the context surrounding the use of the word.
>
>We'd better not enact this unless we are prepared to go through the entire
>ruleset and catch every single slip-up first.  Right now our usage is
>quite inconsitant.  And even then our rules will start to look like
>they've been written in German.
>
>I used to always capitalize defined words, back at about the time when I
>joined Berserker; but I don't like to do this so much anymore because it
>makes me feel like I'm shouting.
>
>Everything else in your proposal I am willing to support.
>
>I think that most of the defined-word/natural-word confusion could be
>avoided if we are just more careful to define our terms when we propose
>rules.

That's good for the future, but there's some status quo holes to be=
 considered.  There is, for example, no in-game definition of "entity",=
 "vote", "object", "rule", "permissible" or many other commonly used words=
 in the rules.  I suspect that if anyone raised a fuss about this, the=
 response would be that the meanings of those words are "known".  What,=
 then, is the criteria for determining which English words are "known" and=
 which aren't?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 18:48:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Neatening up - English
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> That's good for the future, but there's some status quo holes to be
> considered.  There is, for example, no in-game definition of "entity",
> "vote", "object", "rule", "permissible" or many other commonly used
> words in the rules.  I suspect that if anyone raised a fuss about
> this, the response would be that the meanings of those words are
> "known".  What, then, is the criteria for determining which English
> words are "known" and which aren't?
> 
> 						Glotmorf

The simplest way would be that a game definition replaces a natural
english definition in all cases within the scope of the game definition.

So, for example, "points" is defined for players so we use the rules
definition when referring to players.  But if we talk about a point as a
position on the grid it reverts to its natural usage.

For anything that lacks an in-game definition then we use the natural
usage until someone defines it.  I also believe that if there are words
currently used in the ruleset that require a definition ("object" springs
to mind, although I dont know how I would go about defining it) that
someone should get those definitions in a proposal right away.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 19:17:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Dan's megaprop
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> Dan,
> 
> 	With all due respect, I've got enough problems with enough
> pieces of this proposal that I've come up with an alternative form for
> it below, which I'd like to offer you.  I've made it an A La Carte
> Prop, breaking it into separate items.
> 
> 	While I admire the effort you put into your proposal, I'm still
> prepared to vote no on the whole thing in its current form because it
> repeals Rule 0.  Rule 0 was created in response to a general agreement
> that a safety net was needed, since there was no provision otherwise
> to deal with either a paradox or the loss of the Administrator.  I'm
> not prepared to give it up yet, and I'd be surprised if most of the
> other players were. (see Item 8 below)

Rule zero can be put back in.  I don't think it will cause any great
problems.  

> 
> 	In your Definitions section, I believe your definition of
> "non-Beings" would include Gremlins, which are designed to make
> changes to the game state.  Forbidding non-Beings from changing the
> game state might mess a few things up.  I added a piece to the last
> sentence. (see Item 2 below)

Yes, thank you for catching that oversight.  I think that adding "except
as specified by physical law" would be preferable to "except as specified
by the rules" because "the rules" include mutable rules, which are not
supposed to apply to gremlins and the like.

> 
> 	I moved the change to Rule 25 into the same item as the new rule
> describing Administrator duties.  Given the duties rule, is Rule 25
> still necessary, especially in your amended form?  Perhaps replacing
> the text of Rule 25 with the text of your new duties rule would be
> more efficient. (see Item 4 below)
> 

Yes, rule 25 can probably go.

> 	I'm uncomfortable with the Rule 14 change.  If forfeiting means
> withdrawing consent, does withdrawing consent mean forfeiting? (see
> Item 5 below)
> 
> 	I've added my suggested definition of Charter Rules in place of
> your placeholder.  I think it'll cover Society Charters, and also
> something I'm working on called Offers. (see Item 6 below)
> 
> 	Chutzpah was created to give subclasses of priority to rules, so
> that it was not necessary to explicitly state when one rule takes
> priority over another (which can get confusing with the Less is More
> trend).  Having two classes of rules -- physical and mutable -- is
> nice, but is it truly sufficient? (see Item 9 below)

Is there anywhere that Chutzpah is currently needed?  I am personally of
the opinion that chutzpah is unnescessary and we will manage fine with
two divisions, especially if Charter Rules can be used to cover low
priority rules.  Chutzpah also cannot work in its current form within the
proposed system because it could claim to give a mutable rule priority
over a physical law, which could be dangerous.  It could be altered,
however, to work within the rule categories.  I would be willing to write
an adapted version of this rule and include it as an a la carte item or,
if there is overwhelming support for it, to just include it.

> 
> 	Regarding the change to Rule 152: Why take out proposals as a
> mechanism for changing the game state?  Or are you considering
> proposals actions? (see Item 10 below)

I don't think I did that.  Proposals are revisable objects which a player
may create and amend by actions.  It is also a formal request
for a set of changes to the rules and game state (rule 19).  In my new
rule, __Duties of the Administrator__ the admin is called upon to put in
place the changes called for by a successful proposal.

This is an example of the reason why I am afraid to make this an a la
carte proposal.  Introduced in what you have made into conditional but
required parts are security measures and systems upon which the earlier
parts depend.  I don't believe it can safely be broken up.

I am working on a revised version that incorporates the bulk of your
suggestions.

Dan

> 
> 						Glotmorf
> 
> Alternate proposal form:
> 
> {{ __Introducing Physical Law__
> 
> This is an A La Carte Prop.
> 
> {{ _Item 1_
> 
> Give to the following Rules the designation "Physical Law"
> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 22, 153, 154, 205, 206, 207, 210,
> 213, 215, 216, 258, 259, 293, 295, 298, 301, 344, 346, 347, 349, 350, 351,
> 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 394, 401, 405, 407, 408, 440, 441, 443, 466, 469,
> 493, 494, 495, 497, 498, 502, 503, 504, 546, 547, 549, 550, 577, 628, 635,
> 622, 696, 705, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753.
> 
> Give to the following Rules the designation "Mutable Rule"
> 0, 9, 10, 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 124,
> 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 150, 151, 152, 155, 204, 208, 209, 211, 212, 214,
> 216, 217, 255, 257, 262, 263, 294, 300, 358, 393, 395, 396, 403, 404, 436,
> 437, 573, 578, 580, 625, 626, 627, 629, 630, 631, 633, 536, 697, 698, 699,
> 700, 701, 704, 706, 746.
> 
> 
> Enact the following new rule and make it a "Physical Law" 
> {{
> __Rule Classes & Permissions__
> There exist three types of rules: Physical Laws, Mutable Rules, and
> Charter Rules.
> 
> Physical Laws take precedence over all other rules.  Mutable Rules take
> precedence over Charter Rules.
> 
> All entities defined or regulated by the Physical Laws by obey the
> Physical Laws.  An action is impossible if it is prohibited by the
> Physical Laws.
> 
> Players, the Administrator, and any other self-willed entities are
> required to obey the Mutable Rules. An action is illegal if it is
> prohibited by the Mutable Rules.
> 
> Obeyance to the Physical Laws does not exempt an entity subject to the
> Mutable Rules from any requirement in either body of rules.
> 
> Charter Rules are of lower precedence than Physical Laws or Mutable Rules.
> Players are not required to obey Charter Rules except as specified in the
> Mutable Rules.  Non-player entities are not required to obey the Charter
> Rules.
> 
> }}
> 
> Revise rule 18 by replacing "Ruleset" with "Mutable Rules" in the first
> paragraph.
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 1 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 2_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Revise rule 13 "Definitions" by revising it to read as follows: 
> {{ 
> 
> A player is any entity who is capable of passing the Turing test, consents
> to said designation as a player, has become a player in the manner
> described in the rules, and who consents to be abide by the Mutable Rules.
> 
> A being is any entity which is either a Player or the Administrator. 
> 
> A Proposing Entity, or PE, is any entity which is capable of issuing a
> Proposal. 
> 
> Beings may make changes to the rules and game state.  Non-beings may
> not, except as specified in the rules. }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 2 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 3_
> 
> Revise rule 21 "Score" by amending it to read as follows:
> {{
> Players may own points. The number of points in the posession of a player
> shall be known as eir score. 
> 
> The owner of one or more points may transfer any or all points in eir
> possession to another legal owner by posting to the public forum.  
> 
> Whenever a rule states that a Player receives points, the number of points
> in eir possession shall be increased accordingly; whenever a rule states
> that a player loses points, the number of points in eir possession shall
> be lowered accordingly, but it shall never become less than zero.
> 
> New players initially do not possess any points.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 3 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 4_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Revise rule 25, "The Administrator" by amending it to read as follows:  
> {{ The Administrator may make changes to the Rules and the Game State
> in accordance with eir duties as specified in the Rules.  The
> Administrator is subject to the Mutable Rules. }}
> 
> Enact the following new mutable rule:
> {{
> __Duties of the Administrator__
> 
> The Administrator is responsible for all game duties not assigned by the
> Rules to other players.
> 
> The Administrator shall alter the rules and the game state only as
> follows:
> 
> E shall update the game state to reflect actions legally taken and
> rules-defined game events.
> 
> E shall create and distribute points when called upon to do so
> by the Mutable Rules.
> 
> E shall alter the rules and game state as formally requested to do so by
> players via procedures defined in the mutable rules.
> 
> If no players exist or it has become demonstrably impossible to make
> changes to either the Physical Laws or the Mutable Rules e shall make such
> changes to the rules and game state as are nescessary to ensure that
> future play is possible.
> 
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 4 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 5_
> 
> Revise rule 14 by appending the following:
> {{
> Forfeiting is equivalent to withdrawal of consent.
> }}
> 
> Revise rule 10 by changing it to read as follows: 
> {{ 
> A player who refuses to obey the Rules is assumed to have withdrawn eir
> consent.  E should be given a reasonable opportunity to correct eir
> actions before this assumption is made.
> 
> If a player attempts to take an action that would violate the Rules the
> Administrator or relevant minister shall refuse to recognize that action
> unless the player specifically states that e is aware the action is
> illegal but will attempt it anyway. 
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 5 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 6_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Enact the following new mutable rule:
> {{ 
> __Charter Rules__
> 
> A Charter Rule applies to a subset of game entities, whether explicitly named or specified by a set of characteristics.  A Charter Rule may include methods for adding entities to or removing entities from the Charter Rule's applicability.
> 
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 6 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 7_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Revise rule 32 by appending the following to the third paragraph:
> {{
> Unless specified otherwise in the proposal, any new rule created is a
> Mutable Rule.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 7 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 8_
> 
> Repeal rule 0
> 
> }}
> 
> {{ _Item 9_
> 
> Repeal rule 33
> 
> }}
> 
> {{ _Item 10_
> 
> Amend rule 152 by revising it to read as follows:
> {{
> Changes to the state of the game may only be made by an Action which is
> permitted (elsewhere) by the Mutable Rules, or by the Administrator
> performing eir duties.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 10 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 11_
> 
> Amend rule 395 by deleting the first paragraph
> 
> Amend rule 154 by appending the following to the second paragraph:
> {{
> Players have an attribute named Respect.  Respect is a Dimension.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 11 ]]
> 
> }} [[ End of Proposal ]]
> 
> 
> 

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Society redo
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:45:33 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Societies can submit proposals to the game ballot just as Players can; these 
are referred to as Society Proposals, or Club Props. If a Society Proposal 
passes, the Members of the proposing Society each get the same dimensional 
changes as a Player would, times (1/(number of Members in the Society)), 
rounded up. All Members of a Society auto-vote "yes" on any proposal the 
Society submits.

-This is my biggest argument with your proposal, which is otherwise just 
wonderful. vSOI cannot submit proposals, and I'd personally rather keep it 
that way. Now, you could change the first sentence to "Societies may submit 
proposals to the game ballot, if their Charter allows for it, just as 
Players can;" or, since this would fix my other arguments, it might be 
easier to just make this rule defer to the Charters of Societies. My other 
arguements are other things you included which are not present in vSOI's 
charter that I'd like to remain as such, but minor enough that I'm not going 
to argue about them until I see what you think about this rule deferring.-

                                           -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:25:35 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-business: Re: spoon-discuss: Emergency queueing
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 07:56:00PM -0400, bd wrote:
> {{
> Glotmorf's entropy is infinite, thus locking the game into a state defined in 
> rule 440 as if universal entropy is always above maximum entropy.
> }}

Now why in the world would it be infinite?

If you consider "infinity" as the solution to the equation x=x+50 (note
that you have to go outside the real numbers to do this, not a pretty
thing to do in a nomic) then why can't it equally well be negative
infinity?

Math teachers aren't just being a pain in the ass when they are adamant
about the distinction between "infinite" and "undefined". And I maintain
that universal entropy is not above maximum entropy, because there _is_
no number there to be above anything at all.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:27:29 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-business: Re: spoon-discuss: Emergency queueing
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 12:12:04AM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> Well, my score isn't affected by any buoyancy, so that makes my score the highest one known...Can I name myself as judge for your CFIs? :)

It makes sense. A score that doesn't exist can't be the highest one.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:29:02 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Crash Fix
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 07:37:46PM -0400, Dan Waldron wrote:
> __crash fix__
> 
> all DimShips cease to exist.

Do we get a refund?
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:31:28 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A solution?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:47:58PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> Hmmm.... Some *buzz* thing just oc *crack.* curred to me...
> 
> Acc. to *buzz* r493,
> 
> "If a player owns a DimShip and has launched it, then rules that check eir
> dimension values will check the values of eir virtual dimensions."
> 
> *crack.*
> 
> Not, 'the values of *crack.* eir virtual dimensions plus eir real
> dimensions.'
> Not, 'the sum of eir real and virtual dimensions *crack.*.'
> Just *buzz* 'eir virtual dimensions.'
> Does not that mean that in fact my dims are the sum of all the virt.
> *crack.* vals I have, [[regardless]] of my "real" vals?
> So I've got *buzz* 501 Ent., 299 Score, -100 B A C?

Virtual dimensions are not the same thing as displacement. They should
be the sum of your real dimensions and your displacement.

Unless the rule is really messed up.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:42:54 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFI 754
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 02:55:58PM +0100, Naath Thabana wrote:
> Statement: Wonko has won the game since the start of
> nweek 16. 
> 
> Judgement: Indeed e did.
> Resoning: Dimships do not look at your dimensions
> every second, they only look at your dimensions when
> they establish you 'new' dimensions.  This means that
> when you buy you first it look at your actuall
> dimensions and adds whatever buyancy you selected to
> these.  Then, a second dimship will look at you're
> 'new' dimensions when it goes to find your 'real'
> dimensions. 

Let me look up how to appeal a ruling, because I now see several reasons
that that interpretation is incorrect. The main one being that if the
DimShip rule can apply to itself in the case of multiple DimShips, then
it has to apply to itself for a single DimShip, bringing about the
undefined values.

And parts of this ruling are rather muddled and confusing - what in the
world do you mean by "when you buy you"?

> Yes Wonko did manage to increase his score beyond
> 1000, so he won.
> 
> So we can declared Wonko victorious in B-nomic. 
> Ignore everything else that went on since and start
> all over again.  I suggest calling it C-nomic.

The hell?!

I rather _like_ B Nomic. Why abandon it over a bit of confusion and a
Win? Ending the game at a Win, first of all, is not specified in the
rules, and is not supposed to be; and it would set a terrible precedent,
because the person who is winning would not want to feel that in doing
so they are destroying the game! An unfortunate incident of timing
indeed caused A Nomic to end after my win, but we can do better this
time around.

The game must go on!

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:48:48 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 6:42 PM The Voice wrote:

>>Glotmorf's "Glotmorf wins" CFI is 764, assigned to The Voice.
>>...dave
>
>I judge UNDECIDED on CFI 764.
>I immediately appeal the ruling on CFI 764
>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

That's special. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:51:15 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Neatening up - English
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 6:48 PM Dan Waldron wrote:

>> 
>> That's good for the future, but there's some status quo holes to be
>> considered.  There is, for example, no in-game definition of "entity",
>> "vote", "object", "rule", "permissible" or many other commonly used
>> words in the rules.  I suspect that if anyone raised a fuss about
>> this, the response would be that the meanings of those words are
>> "known".  What, then, is the criteria for determining which English
>> words are "known" and which aren't?
>> 
>> 						Glotmorf
>
>The simplest way would be that a game definition replaces a natural
>english definition in all cases within the scope of the game definition.
>
>So, for example, "points" is defined for players so we use the rules
>definition when referring to players.  But if we talk about a point as a
>position on the grid it reverts to its natural usage.
>
>For anything that lacks an in-game definition then we use the natural
>usage until someone defines it.  I also believe that if there are words
>currently used in the ruleset that require a definition ("object" springs
>to mind, although I dont know how I would go about defining it) that
>someone should get those definitions in a proposal right away.

But how is "natural usage" defined?  Is it what's in the dictionary?  Mr. A=
 shot that down in an argument last nweek, and you're reluctant to propose=
 it.  Is it what everyone agrees it is?  Then it only takes a single=
 dissenting voice to determine a given usage is not the "natural usage".

Case-by-case basis, via CFIs?  Well, okay, but that might bog things=
 down...

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:52:59 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: General confusion
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 06:43:40PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> Is my score high next to Rob's? It is not poss. to tell.

Just as "undefined" does not mean "infinite", it also does not mean
"indeterminate".

I see no basis for treating the scores as indeterminate values, as that
would imply that some (unknown) value satisfies the paradoxical DimShip
equation x = x + D (where D is some non-zero displacement).
-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFI 754
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:53:52 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Let me look up how to appeal a ruling, because I now see several reasons
that that interpretation is incorrect. The main one being that if the
DimShip rule can apply to itself in the case of multiple DimShips, then
it has to apply to itself for a single DimShip, bringing about the
undefined values.
-I think you just appeal it to spoon-business.-

I rather _like_ B Nomic. Why abandon it over a bit of confusion and a
Win? Ending the game at a Win, first of all, is not specified in the
rules, and is not supposed to be; and it would set a terrible precedent,
because the person who is winning would not want to feel that in doing
so they are destroying the game! An unfortunate incident of timing
indeed caused A Nomic to end after my win, but we can do better this
time around.
-I thought if somone won, all scores reset to zero and we plugged along as 
though nothing was out of the ordinary?-

The game must go on!
-Ditto.-

--
Rob Speer

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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:54:59 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Monkey Wrench in the Works
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 06:17:52PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> Quoth Rob Speer,
> 
> > I make this CFJ:
> > {{
> > 
> > The following quantities are undefined:
> > * Baron von Skippy's Charm, Score, Respect, and Entropy
> > * Glotmorf's Respect and Entropy
> > * Rob's Score and Style
> > * The Voice's Score, Style, and Entropy
> > * Wild Card's Activity, Charm, Score, and Entropy
> > * Wonko's Score, BAC, and Entropy
> > * Global Entropy
> > 
> > Any statement about the numeric values of any of the above made in the
> > past nweek is false.
> > }}
> 
> FALSE by definition - if it's true, the above statement (which was made in
> the past nweek) must be false. Besides, that's two statements. Don't you
> only get one?

I said "numeric values" for a reason. I made a statement about the
value, namely that it is undefined, which is not a number.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:56:43 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Society redo
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 7:45 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>Societies can submit proposals to the game ballot just as Players can;
>these 
>are referred to as Society Proposals, or Club Props. If a Society Proposal=
 
>passes, the Members of the proposing Society each get the same dimensional=
 
>changes as a Player would, times (1/(number of Members in the Society)), 
>rounded up. All Members of a Society auto-vote "yes" on any proposal the 
>Society submits.
>
>-This is my biggest argument with your proposal, which is otherwise just 
>wonderful. vSOI cannot submit proposals, and I'd personally rather keep it=
 
>that way. Now, you could change the first sentence to "Societies may
>submit 
>proposals to the game ballot, if their Charter allows for it, just as 
>Players can;" or, since this would fix my other arguments, it might be 
>easier to just make this rule defer to the Charters of Societies. My other=
 
>arguements are other things you included which are not present in vSOI's 
>charter that I'd like to remain as such, but minor enough that I'm not
>going 
>to argue about them until I see what you think about this rule deferring.-
>
>                                           -BvS-

It says that down below the section you quoted...

For it to submit proposals, a Society must meet these standards: 

a.) The number of Players in the Society must be less than half the number=
 of Players in the game. 

b.) *The rules that say how a Society decides to submit a proposal are=
 public rules.*

c.) Each Player in the Society must have (1/(number of Players in the=
 Society)) free in eir bandwidth limit for each Society proposal made. 

...but I can put it in the opening para too.

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:59:54 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>Glotmorf's "Glotmorf wins" CFI is 764, assigned to The Voice.
 >>...dave
 >
 >I judge UNDECIDED on CFI 764.
 >I immediately appeal the ruling on CFI 764
 >
 >
 >-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

That's special. :)

						Glotmorf

-It sounds stupid, but it's not... Rather clever. Of course, now no one can 
reappeal... Although, if Glotmorf does just win, it might make things easier 
on the rest of us.-

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Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 23:03:37 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Another CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 10:35 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>[[ I have no entropy displacement. Yay. ]]
>
>I make the following subtly different CFJ:
>{{
>The following quantities are undefined:
>* Baron von Skippy's Charm, Score, Respect, and Entropy
>* Glotmorf's Respect and Entropy
>* Rob's Score and Style
>* The Voice's Score, Style, and Entropy
>* Wild Card's Activity, Charm, Score, and Entropy
>* Universal Entropy
>Any statement about the numeric values of any of the above made in the
>past nweek is false.
>}}
>
>[[ Wonko can be taken care of separately. ]]
>-- 
>Rob Speer

A problem with this...I don't mean to nitpick about it, but it's important=
 to not create a problem when cleaning up a problem...

If my Entropy is undefined, and any statement about the numeric value of my=
 Entropy is false, then:

"Glotmorf is subject to syllable restrictions under Entropy" is false; and

"Glotmorf is not subject to syllable restrictions under Entropy" is also=
 false.

Personally I've been going with the assumption that either my DimShip is=
 working just fine as it always has, or that my Entropy is undefined and=
 therefore can't be checked against Universal Entropy.

Whaddaya think?

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Society redo
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 23:06:11 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

It says that down below the section you quoted...

For it to submit proposals, a Society must meet these standards:

a.) The number of Players in the Society must be less than half the number 
of Players in the game.

b.) *The rules that say how a Society decides to submit a proposal are 
public rules.*

c.) Each Player in the Society must have (1/(number of Players in the 
Society)) free in eir bandwidth limit for each Society proposal made.

...but I can put it in the opening para too.

						Glotmorf

-This comes of skimming the prop, I suppose. I still say, though, that it 
should defer to charters, as the Gnome rule defers to props that create 
gnome types.-

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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 23:23:21 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Another CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:03:37PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> "Glotmorf is subject to syllable restrictions under Entropy" is false; and
> 
> "Glotmorf is not subject to syllable restrictions under Entropy" is also false.

Not quite true, because neither of those statements refer to a numerical
value. They depend on something else: "Glotmorf's Entropy is higher than
the cutoff for syllable restrictions", which would be false.

Of course, "Glotmorf's Entropy is lower than the cutoff for syllable
restrictions" is also false, but a rule would tend to only check one of
those statements, based on the way it is phrased.

Rules which assume that one of a number of different cases has to be
true could have a problem. Are there any of those?
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 23:24:14 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Another CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 11:23 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:03:37PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
>> "Glotmorf is subject to syllable restrictions under Entropy" is false;
>and
>> 
>> "Glotmorf is not subject to syllable restrictions under Entropy" is also
>false.
>
>Not quite true, because neither of those statements refer to a numerical
>value. They depend on something else: "Glotmorf's Entropy is higher than
>the cutoff for syllable restrictions", which would be false.
>
>Of course, "Glotmorf's Entropy is lower than the cutoff for syllable
>restrictions" is also false, but a rule would tend to only check one of
>those statements, based on the way it is phrased.
>
>Rules which assume that one of a number of different cases has to be
>true could have a problem. Are there any of those?
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Actually, the Entropy rule is one, because it checks on four different=
 levels: below the one-syl threshold, above the one-syl but below the=
 two-syl, above the two-syl but below the three-syl, and above the=
 three-syl.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 23:58:36 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFI
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/1/02 at 3:51 AM Dan Waldron wrote:

>I submit the following CFI:
>
>{{
>Given that the rules exist to be interpreted by intelligent beings, and
>given that it might, through methods foreseen or unforeseen, become
>impossible to determine the value of various game values, and
>given that this has indeed happened, I submit the following statement:
>
>No player was awarded a win during nweek 16.
>
>My analysis follows.
>
>Rule 18/2 states that "With the exception of Rule Changes whatever is not
>prohibited or regulated by the Ruleset is permitted and unregulated."
>
>Indeterminate values are neither prohibited nor regulated.  Therefore it
>is up to us to come to some decision how they shall be dealt with.  The
>simplest means of dealing with an undefined value is to have the answer of
>any query made of it be "no", and this is the principle I suggest we apply
>here.  I do not suggest that we apply this principle indiscriminately, for
>example if the rules were to ask "is the value of x indeterminate?" it
>would be foolish to return an answer of "no" due to precedent if x were
>indeterminate.  However, in present circumstances the principle is quite
>simple to apply.
>
>Rule 27/2 states that "If at any time a player's score equals or exceeds
>1000 points, and that player's Charm and Activity are both greater than
>zero, that player is immediately awarded a Win."
>
>The rule asks the question "Is the value of any player's greater than or
>equal to 1000 points?"  In the case of Wonko and others whose score is
>indeterminate, the answer is "no."
>
>Furthermore, rule 440 asks the question "is the global Entropy greater
>than 500?" since the global Entropy is also indeterminate the answer
>should also be "no."
>
>}}

I rule this statement to be TRUE.

I agree with Plaintiff's analysis of the regulation of indeterminate=
 values; though I choose to interpret the current values publicly regarded=
 as indeterminate as being what they would be as the result of DimShips not=
 having cumulative effect.

I have said.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:32:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Crash Fix
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > __crash fix__
> > 
> > all DimShips cease to exist.
> 
> Do we get a refund?
> -- 
> Rob Speer

Yes.  There's a pending revision that introduces a refund.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:37:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Neatening up - English
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> But how is "natural usage" defined?  Is it what's in the dictionary?  
> Mr. A shot that down in an argument last nweek, and you're reluctant
> to propose it.  Is it what everyone agrees it is?  Then it only takes
> a single dissenting voice to determine a given usage is not the
> "natural usage".
> 
> Case-by-case basis, via CFIs?  Well, okay, but that might bog things
> down...
> 
> 						Glotmorf

For most words, everyone should agree.  For others we can use implications
of the rules, context, game custom, and CFI precedent.  But ultimately the
only fair way of settling a definition quibble is by CFI.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 01:06:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Entropy Tests
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> Actually, the Entropy rule is one, because it checks on four different
> levels: below the one-syl threshold, above the one-syl but below the
> two-syl, above the two-syl but below the three-syl, and above the
> three-syl.

Actually, the relevant part of the entropy rule does exactly three tests,
and all of them work fine with the "false" assumption.

The rule works like this:

if (test 1) then impose 3-syllable limit.
if (test 2) then impose 2-syllable limit.
if (test 3) then impose 1-syllable limit.

There may be rules which use more complicated tests, but if we can break
those tests down into a series of simple tests then we should have no
problem applying the "false" rule.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 09:47:36 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFI
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Dan Waldron,

> Indeterminate values are neither prohibited nor regulated.  Therefore it
> is up to us to come to some decision how they shall be dealt with.  The
> simplest means of dealing with an undefined value is to have the answer of
> any query made of it be "no", and this is the principle I suggest we apply
> here.  I do not suggest that we apply this principle indiscriminately, for
> example if the rules were to ask "is the value of x indeterminate?" it
> would be foolish to return an answer of "no" due to precedent if x were
> indeterminate.  However, in present circumstances the principle is quite
> simple to apply.

So basically, what you're saying is, let's decide that indeterminate values
are whatever we want them to be. I ask 'Is my score not equal to 92?'; we
then decide whether or not to apply the principle of 'no' to it. I ask 'Is
my score 92?'; we decide again what the answer is, based on whatever we feel
like thinking.

Why not just say 'the answer to any query is whatever we want it to be'?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 09:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A solution?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> Virtual dimensions are not the same thing as displacement. They should
> be the sum of your real dimensions and your displacement.
> 
> Unless the rule is really messed up.

So you think real points are also virtual points? Then we could say that
one's virtual dimensions are the sum of one's displacement and one's real
values.

But the DimShip rule defines Buoyancy and Ballast to be positive virtual
value and negative virtual value, respectively. I think that's what virtual
values are.

In which case entropy is running wild, and Dan has won once, being the
player with the highest score who has no DimShip, and the Clock turned off.
Three ndays later, the Clock turned back on, and bd, Bean, Dan, Iain, Naath,
and Rachel, being the players who had no DimShips, all of whom then had 0
points, won.

And we've never gotten past nday 1 this nweek, because the Clock keeps
turning off every time it turns on.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 10:02:58 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ships
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> I land all *buzz* my Ships.

Now what are my values? No longer must they be n such that n + D = n; now
they must be no more than their actual values. But they were undefined;
where do they come out now?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:03:33 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Entropy Tests
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Dan Waldron,

>> 
>> Actually, the Entropy rule is one, because it checks on four different
>> levels: below the one-syl threshold, above the one-syl but below the
>> two-syl, above the two-syl but below the three-syl, and above the
>> three-syl.
> 
> Actually, the relevant part of the entropy rule does exactly three tests,
> and all of them work fine with the "false" assumption.
> 
> The rule works like this:
> 
> if (test 1) then impose 3-syllable limit.
> if (test 2) then impose 2-syllable limit.
> if (test 3) then impose 1-syllable limit.
> 
> There may be rules which use more complicated tests, but if we can break
> those tests down into a series of simple tests then we should have no
> problem applying the "false" rule.

What about "If the player with the lowest nonzero score has at least 20
fewer points than any other player with a nonzero score" - I'm not sure
that's the exact wording, but it's from the Scoring Gremlin.

Does it ask "is BvS' score less than Wonko's?" and get No, or does it ask
"is Wonko's score less than BvS'?" and get No?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:07:57 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Proposed r0 proposal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 5/31/02 at 12:04 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> On 5/30/02 at 10:46 PM The Voice wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>>>>> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>>>>> To: [email-masked]
>>>>> Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Proposed r0 proposal
>>>>> Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 22:43:21 -0400
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 5/31/02 at 1:31 AM Jonathan David Amery wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> b) The clock doesn't work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The clock doesn't work?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Glotmorf
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I believe that this is the logic train:
>>>> 1) It is impossible to know the score of anyone who owns a dimship.
>>>> 2) It is, therefore, impossible to know if anyone has won or not.
>>>> 3) The clock turns off as soon as someone wins.
>>>> 4) Therefore, we do not know whether the clock is on or off.
>>>> 
>>>> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
>>> 
>>> Well, you can know *my* score, since I'm not displaced in score, but I
>> see
>>> what you're concerned about.
>>> 
>>> But I still maintain the same argument.  Either the game is completely
>> broken
>>> and what anyone's score is doesn't matter, or precedent dictates the game
>>> isn't broken and the runaway acceleration stuff didn't happen.  I favor
>> the
>>> latter, because to allow the runaway acceleration is to allow the game
>> to be
>>> broken.
>> 
>> Precedent cannot take precedence over the rules. We didn't notice it was
>> broken, but it was. And still is.
>> 
>> And we don't know your score - people may or may not have won, and
>> depending
>> on that, your score may or may not have been reset to 0.
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko
> 
> Actually, precedent can take precedence, at least in common law.  Hence you
> have things like easements, squatters' rights, common-law marriages, palimony
> and other things that legally exist solely because they'd been allowed to
> continue for a long enough period of time.  Granted, we don't explicitly
> acknowledge common law in the rules, but then we're back to things like game
> custom, common sense and other things that allow us to use English and email
> without explicitly saying so.

Are easements, squatters' rights, common-law marriages, and palimony
forbidden by any law? Certainly no law that I know of makes them illegal.
However, the DimShip rule does make people's scores undefined, so the fact
that we've been ignoring it doesn't mean it's not true.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:35:10 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Entropy Tests
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:03:33PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> What about "If the player with the lowest nonzero score has at least 20
> fewer points than any other player with a nonzero score" - I'm not sure
> that's the exact wording, but it's from the Scoring Gremlin.
> 
> Does it ask "is BvS' score less than Wonko's?" and get No, or does it ask
> "is Wonko's score less than BvS'?" and get No?

Aren't BvS' and Wonko's scores both undefined? It wouldn't compare them
at all; an undefined score cannot be the lowest, so it wouldn't get past
there.

If it's determining whether the player with the lowest nonzero score
gets any points, though, they don't, because it is false that they have
at least 20 fewer points than someone with an undefined score.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:36:08 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFI
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:32:19PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> The DimShip rule therefore fails to modify any player's dimensions, as its
> method of doing so would result in a violation of r153.

Oh.

<applause>
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:28:50 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A solution?
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> So you think real points are also virtual points?
> Then we could say that
> one's virtual dimensions are the sum of one's
> displacement and one's real
> values.
> 
> But the DimShip rule defines Buoyancy and Ballast to
> be positive virtual
> value and negative virtual value, respectively. I
> think that's what virtual
> values are.
> 
> In which case entropy is running wild, and Dan has
> won once, being the
> player with the highest score who has no DimShip,
> and the Clock turned off.
> Three ndays later, the Clock turned back on, and bd,
> Bean, Dan, Iain, Naath,
> and Rachel, being the players who had no DimShips,
> all of whom then had 0
> points, won.
> 
> And we've never gotten past nday 1 this nweek,
> because the Clock keeps
> turning off every time it turns on.

So basically... the game is broken.

I'm still in favour of starting over.  Mostely 'cos
then I have a hope in hell of understanding *all* of
what is going on...

Naath
slightly biased...

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A solution?
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:25:14 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sunday 02 June 2002 2:28 pm, Naath Thabana wrote:
> > So you think real points are also virtual points?
> > Then we could say that
> > one's virtual dimensions are the sum of one's
> > displacement and one's real
> > values.
> >
> > But the DimShip rule defines Buoyancy and Ballast to
> > be positive virtual
> > value and negative virtual value, respectively. I
> > think that's what virtual
> > values are.
> >
> > In which case entropy is running wild, and Dan has
> > won once, being the
> > player with the highest score who has no DimShip,
> > and the Clock turned off.
> > Three ndays later, the Clock turned back on, and bd,
> > Bean, Dan, Iain, Naath,
> > and Rachel, being the players who had no DimShips,
> > all of whom then had 0
> > points, won.
> >
> > And we've never gotten past nday 1 this nweek,
> > because the Clock keeps
> > turning off every time it turns on.
>
> So basically... the game is broken.
>
> I'm still in favour of starting over.  Mostely 'cos
> then I have a hope in hell of understanding *all* of
> what is going on...

Agreed, for the same reasons :)

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 18:08:12 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A solution?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 07:28:50PM +0100, Naath Thabana wrote:
> I'm still in favour of starting over.  Mostely 'cos
> then I have a hope in hell of understanding *all* of
> what is going on...

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that most of us understand
all of what's going on.

I certainly don't.

I paid no attention to Gremlins when they were introduced, until people
started doing stuff with them frequently, for example.

And starting a new Nomic wouldn't help that at all, given how confusing
nweek 1 was...
-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFI
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:38:31 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

So basically, what you're saying is, let's decide that indeterminate values
are whatever we want them to be. I ask 'Is my score not equal to 92?'; we
then decide whether or not to apply the principle of 'no' to it. I ask 'Is
my score 92?'; we decide again what the answer is, based on whatever we feel
like thinking.

Why not just say 'the answer to any query is whatever we want it to be'?
-Because what you want and what we want are very different. What it sounds 
to me like Dan wants is a way to not break the game. It seems perfectly 
sensible to me. If you ask "is my score not equal to 92" we say we can't 
tell. If you ask "is my score greater than 92, because if it is, x happens," 
we say "no" to prevent x from happening for the time being, until we can 
tell what your score /is./ I've probably confused things more here, but does 
that make sense?-

                                                  -BvS-

--
Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ships
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:40:53 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>I land all *buzz* my Ships.

Now what are my values? No longer must they be n such that n + D = n; now
they must be no more than their actual values. But they were undefined;
where do they come out now?
--
Wonko

-They're probably where the Roster page says they are. Those would be your 
actual values, and virtual values are added to that. Now, I must applaud 
you. In the midst of a mild game crisis, started by you, you still find time 
to attempt to exacerbate that crisis. Splendid.-

                                          -BvS-

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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Entropy Tests
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:44:39 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

What about "If the player with the lowest nonzero score has at least 20
fewer points than any other player with a nonzero score" - I'm not sure
that's the exact wording, but it's from the Scoring Gremlin.

Does it ask "is BvS' score less than Wonko's?" and get No, or does it ask
"is Wonko's score less than BvS'?" and get No?
-It doesn't ask either, as we're not the players with the lowest nonzero 
score, not by a long shot... and with your ships landed, you're lower than I 
am. With my Ship landed, you'd still be lower than I am. So, those questions 
you asked would be no and yes. Details, I know...-

--
Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A solution?
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:52:51 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that most of us understand
all of what's going on.

I certainly don't.

I paid no attention to Gremlins when they were introduced, until people
started doing stuff with them frequently, for example.

And starting a new Nomic wouldn't help that at all, given how confusing
nweek 1 was...
--
Rob Speer

-As this whole last week (that's RL time, not nweeks) has proved, none of us 
fully know what's going on. If we did, there would be no conflict. We'd all 
have the answers and life would be good and happy. *sigh* Sorry to cut this 
short, my cardboard fort needs tending.-

                                            -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 23:51:15 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I could call it Gnomilogue, but that would be
	stealing an idea...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> I make the following proposal:
> 
> B.14. Bomb Gnomes
> 
> There exist Gnomes of type Bomb. A player with a Bomb Gnome may throw it at
> a Grid location, a Big Rock, or another player. If a player throws a Bomb
> Gnome at a Grid Location, the Bomb Gnome is destroyed and that Grid
> location's substance becomes Fire for one nweek. If a player throws a Bomb
> Gnome at a Big Rock, the Bomb Gnome is destroyed and that Big Rock and any
> Sirens on it are destroyed. If a player throws a Bomb Gnome at another
> player, and the targeted player fails to catch it within 3 ndays, the Bomb
> Gnome is destroyed, the targeted player loses 15 points, the targeted player
> is placed in Limbo, and the substance of eir Grid location is set to Fire
> for one nweek. If the targeted player catches the Bomb Gnome, 1d(4-n) is
> rolled, where n is the number of times the Bomb Gnome has been thrown. On a
> 1, the Bomb Gnome is destroyed, the targeted player loses 15 points, the
> targeted player is placed in Limbo, and the substance of eir Grid location
> is set to Fire for one nweek.

I like it, but it's kind of powerful, isn't it? I mean, there's a 1/4 chance
you'll get the <expletive deleted> blown out of you no matter what, isn't
there? That's gonna get really irritating, I bet.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 00:48:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
cc: Business Nomic <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's do this right!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> The DimShip rule therefore fails to modify any player's dimensions, as its
> method of doing so would *crackle* result in a violation of r153.
> ]]
> <CFI>

Wow.  Good thing you caught that.  I guess that pretty much solves all of
our problems.

In case we ever have to make a decision about an undefined value, although
that is much less likely than I thought, I'd like to answer some comments
about how I suggested we would.

"So basically, what you're saying is, let's decide that indeterminate
values are whatever we want them to be. I ask 'Is my score not equal to
92?'; we then decide whether or not to apply the principle of 'no' to it.
I ask 'Is my score 92?'; we decide again what the answer is, based on
whatever we feel like thinking."

"Why not just say 'the answer to any query is whatever we want it to be'?
-Because what you want and what we want are very different. What it sounds
to me like Dan wants is a way to not break the game. It seems perfectly
sensible to me. If you ask "is my score not equal to 92" we say we can't
tell. If you ask "is my score greater than 92, because if it is, x
happens," we say "no" to prevent x from happening for the time being,
until we can tell what your score /is./ I've probably confused things more
here, but does that make sense?"

Well the values themselves are protected from player tampering.  So even
if my score is undefined I can't declare it to arbitrarily be something
that it might not be.  If a value is undefined there is no way we know for
sure that it can fit within any range.  So the answer is always false.

To establish something like "the player with the lowest score" the
simplest system would be:

Does player a have the lowest score?
Does player b have the lowest score?
Does player c have the lowest score?
...

This would be divided up into

Is score(a) < score(b)
Is score(a) < score(c)
...

Is score(b) < score(a)
Is score(b) < score(c)
...

anytime a player is refered to who has an undefined score the answer is
false.  So no player has the lowest score.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I could call it Gnomilogue, but that woul
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:24:17 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I like it, but it's kind of powerful, isn't it? I mean, there's a 1/4 chance
you'll get the <expletive deleted> blown out of you no matter what, isn't
there? That's gonna get really irritating, I bet.

--
Wonko

-Well, 15 points worth of the <explitive deleted.> And then you put yourself 
back on the grid. The first catch is actually a 1/3 chance, not 1/4. But, on 
the 2/3 chance that you don't get blown to hell, you can throw it right 
back, or safely detonate it elsewhere. I agree, it's powerful, and there 
should be a way to dodge it. But at the moment, any non-vSOI member player 
needs 24 points to hit somone for 15, and vSOI still needs 12. And, again, 
there's always the chance that you can blast the person that tried to get 
you. Mostly, this is a way to get rid of pesky Sirens.-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 14:21:05 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I could call it
  Gnomilogue, but that woul
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/3/02 at 12:24 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>I like it, but it's kind of powerful, isn't it? I mean, there's a 1/4
>chance
>you'll get the <expletive deleted> blown out of you no matter what, isn't
>there? That's gonna get really irritating, I bet.
>
>--
>Wonko
>
>-Well, 15 points worth of the <explitive deleted.> And then you put
>yourself 
>back on the grid. The first catch is actually a 1/3 chance, not 1/4. But,
>on 
>the 2/3 chance that you don't get blown to hell, you can throw it right 
>back, or safely detonate it elsewhere. I agree, it's powerful, and there 
>should be a way to dodge it. But at the moment, any non-vSOI member player=
 
>needs 24 points to hit somone for 15, and vSOI still needs 12. And, again,=
 
>there's always the chance that you can blast the person that tried to get 
>you. Mostly, this is a way to get rid of pesky Sirens.-

Big Rocks are cheaper.  And less personally risky. :)

						Glotmorf

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's do this right!
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:46:03 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 12:48 am, Dan Waldron wrote:
> > The DimShip rule therefore fails to modify any player's dimensions, a=
s
> > its method of doing so would *crackle* result in a violation of r153.=
 ]]
> > <CFI>
>
> Wow.  Good thing you caught that.  I guess that pretty much solves all =
of
> our problems.

Finally!

I say that the dimship rule has two interpretations, recursive and=20
non-recursive, and recursive is illegal. Thus, it's non-recursive! Yay!

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:23:06 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I could call it
	Gnomilogue, but that woul
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> -Well, 15 points worth of the <explitive deleted.> And then you put yourself
> back on the grid. The first catch is actually a 1/3 chance, not 1/4. But, on
> the 2/3 chance that you don't get blown to hell, you can throw it right
> back, or safely detonate it elsewhere. I agree, it's powerful, and there
> should be a way to dodge it. But at the moment, any non-vSOI member player
> needs 24 points to hit somone for 15, and vSOI still needs 12. And, again,
> there's always the chance that you can blast the person that tried to get
> you. Mostly, this is a way to get rid of pesky Sirens.-

12? Can't we buy a Gnome of any specific type for 4? And won't Bomb be a
Type?

-- 
Wonko

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: 757 - The C F I
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:30:15 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:26 pm, Wonko wrote:
> I Judge Call 757 TRUE.
>
> [[Analysis: the plaintiff's reasoning is irrelevant; the fact is that t=
he
> only effect DimShips could have on player's dimensions is to make them
> undefined, which would violate at least one higher-precedence rule. Thu=
s,
> DimShips do not affect player's values, and nobody wins because of one.=
]]

Phew! Now we at least know that anyone without dimships is okay... Includ=
ing=20
me!

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:33:28 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says to them?

Quote from r205:

Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. Any
player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business forum,
declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posting a
message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. A player who is
On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a player,
and may not take any game actions. If more than 2/3 of all players are On
Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of all
players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave
while The Clock is Off.

I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make sure I'm
not hallucinating...

-- 
Wonko

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:37:33 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:33 pm, Wonko wrote:
> Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says to th=
em?
>
> Quote from r205:
>
> Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. =
Any
> player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business forum,
> declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posti=
ng a
> message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. A player w=
ho
> is On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a
> player, and may not take any game actions. If more than 2/3 of all play=
ers
> are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/=
3 of
> all players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off L=
eave
> while The Clock is Off.
>
> I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make sure=
 I'm
> not hallucinating...

You can go on leave and off, at any time, and if 2/3 are on, the clock st=
ops=20
until only 1/3 are on.

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:39:33 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth bd,

> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:33 pm, Wonko wrote:
>> Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says to them?
>> 
>> Quote from r205:
>> 
>> Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. Any
>> player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business forum,
>> declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posting a
>> message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. A player who
>> is On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a
>> player, and may not take any game actions. If more than 2/3 of all players
>> are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of
>> all players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave
>> while The Clock is Off.
>> 
>> I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make sure I'm
>> not hallucinating...
> 
> You can go on leave and off, at any time, and if 2/3 are on, the clock stops
> until only 1/3 are on.

The disastrous part lies in the 'may not take any game actions' bit. Coming
On Leave is a Game Action.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:40:04 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth bd,
> 
>> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:33 pm, Wonko wrote:
>>> Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says to them?
>>> 
>>> Quote from r205:
>>> 
>>> Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. Any
>>> player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business forum,
>>> declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posting a
>>> message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. A player who
>>> is On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a
>>> player, and may not take any game actions. If more than 2/3 of all players
>>> are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of
>>> all players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave
>>> while The Clock is Off.
>>> 
>>> I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make sure I'm
>>> not hallucinating...
>> 
>> You can go on leave and off, at any time, and if 2/3 are on, the clock stops
>> until only 1/3 are on.
> 
> The disastrous part lies in the 'may not take any game actions' bit. Coming
> On Leave is a Game Action.

Off, I mean. Sorry, slip of the finger.

-- 
Wonko

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:39:51 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:38 pm, Wonko wrote:
> {{
> __Repairs - On Leave__
>
> In rule 205, append after the text "and may not take any game actions" =
the
> text " except placing emself Off Leave"
>
> Change the gamestate to what it would have been had this change been in
> effect from the creation of rule 205 until the beginning of nweek 17.
> }}

Remember, the rule explicitly tates you can go on leave while the clock i=
s on=20
;)

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:40:30 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:40 pm, Wonko wrote:
> Quoth Wonko,
>
> > Quoth bd,
> >
> >> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:33 pm, Wonko wrote:
> >>> Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says t=
o
> >>> them?
> >>>
> >>> Quote from r205:
> >>>
> >>> Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Lea=
ve.
> >>> Any player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business
> >>> forum, declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave ma=
y,
> >>> by posting a message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off
> >>> Leave. A player who is On Leave cannot be selected by any process w=
hich
> >>> randomly selects a player, and may not take any game actions. If mo=
re
> >>> than 2/3 of all players are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off un=
til
> >>> such time as at least 1/3 of all players are Off Leave. Players may
> >>> place emselves On Leave or Off Leave while The Clock is Off.
> >>>
> >>> I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make =
sure
> >>> I'm not hallucinating...
> >>
> >> You can go on leave and off, at any time, and if 2/3 are on, the clo=
ck
> >> stops until only 1/3 are on.
> >
> > The disastrous part lies in the 'may not take any game actions' bit.
> > Coming On Leave is a Game Action.
>
> Off, I mean. Sorry, slip of the finger.

Does it say going Off Leave is a game action? It just says you have to po=
st a=20
message to a public forum...

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:41:20 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:39 pm, bd wrote:
> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:38 pm, Wonko wrote:
> > {{
> > __Repairs - On Leave__
> >
> > In rule 205, append after the text "and may not take any game actions=
"
> > the text " except placing emself Off Leave"
> >
> > Change the gamestate to what it would have been had this change been =
in
> > effect from the creation of rule 205 until the beginning of nweek 17.
> > }}
>
> Remember, the rule explicitly tates you can go on leave while the clock=
 is
> on ;)

Off, that is.

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Quote
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:41:47 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:42 pm, Wonko wrote:
> [[Quote from a public forum msg]]:
>
> {{
> __Repairs - On Leave__
>
> In rule 205, append after the text "and may not take any game actions" =
the
> text " except placing emself Off Leave"
>
> }}

haha!

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:43:00 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth bd,

> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:40 pm, Wonko wrote:
>> Quoth Wonko,
>> 
>>> Quoth bd,
>>> 
>>>> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:33 pm, Wonko wrote:
>>>>> Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says to
>>>>> them?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Quote from r205:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave.
>>>>> Any player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business
>>>>> forum, declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may,
>>>>> by posting a message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off
>>>>> Leave. A player who is On Leave cannot be selected by any process which
>>>>> randomly selects a player, and may not take any game actions. If more
>>>>> than 2/3 of all players are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off until
>>>>> such time as at least 1/3 of all players are Off Leave. Players may
>>>>> place emselves On Leave or Off Leave while The Clock is Off.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make sure
>>>>> I'm not hallucinating...
>>>> 
>>>> You can go on leave and off, at any time, and if 2/3 are on, the clock
>>>> stops until only 1/3 are on.
>>> 
>>> The disastrous part lies in the 'may not take any game actions' bit.
>>> Coming On Leave is a Game Action.
>> 
>> Off, I mean. Sorry, slip of the finger.
> 
> Does it say going Off Leave is a game action? It just says you have to post a
> message to a public forum...

That's true... perhaps we can slip through this on the grounds of not
knowing what a Game Action is... I would have thought, though that a Game
Action was an Action in the Game.
-- 
Wonko

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Quote
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:42:23 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:42 pm, Wonko wrote:
> [[Quote from a public forum msg]]:
>
> {{
> __Repairs - On Leave__
>
> In rule 205, append after the text "and may not take any game actions" =
the
> text " except placing emself Off Leave"
>
> }}

You can't quote yourself, you know. Anyway, if you have dimships, we have=
 no=20
idea what your entropy is...

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:43:12 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Monday 03 June 2002 4:43 pm, Wonko wrote:
> Quoth bd,
>
> > On Monday 03 June 2002 4:40 pm, Wonko wrote:
> >> Quoth Wonko,
> >>
> >>> Quoth bd,
> >>>
> >>>> On Monday 03 June 2002 4:33 pm, Wonko wrote:
> >>>>> Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says=
 to
> >>>>> them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Quote from r205:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off
> >>>>> Leave. Any player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a
> >>>>> business forum, declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is =
On
> >>>>> Leave may, by posting a message on a business forum, declare emse=
lf
> >>>>> to be Off Leave. A player who is On Leave cannot be selected by a=
ny
> >>>>> process which randomly selects a player, and may not take any gam=
e
> >>>>> actions. If more than 2/3 of all players are On Leave, The Clock
> >>>>> shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of all players a=
re
> >>>>> Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave while=
 The
> >>>>> Clock is Off.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to mak=
e
> >>>>> sure I'm not hallucinating...
> >>>>
> >>>> You can go on leave and off, at any time, and if 2/3 are on, the c=
lock
> >>>> stops until only 1/3 are on.
> >>>
> >>> The disastrous part lies in the 'may not take any game actions' bit=
=2E
> >>> Coming On Leave is a Game Action.
> >>
> >> Off, I mean. Sorry, slip of the finger.
> >
> > Does it say going Off Leave is a game action? It just says you have t=
o
> > post a message to a public forum...
>
> That's true... perhaps we can slip through this on the grounds of not
> knowing what a Game Action is... I would have thought, though that a Ga=
me
> Action was an Action in the Game.

The spoon mailing list isn't technically *part* of the game... Anyway, ma=
ke a=20
CFI before you make a proposal.

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:46:43 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: GRRRRRRRRR........
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

[[Quote *buzz* from a public forum msg]]:

{{
__Repairs *crack.* - On Leave__

In rule 205, append after the text "and may not take any game actions" the
text " except placing emself Off Leave"

}}

-- 
Wonko *buzz*

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I could call it Gnomilogue, but that woul
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:05:13 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Big Rocks are cheaper.  And less personally risky. :)

						Glotmorf

-Ah, but you can't drop a Rock on the Siren that's got you.-

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I could call it Gnomilogue, but that woul
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:07:51 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>-Well, 15 points worth of the <explitive deleted.> And then you put 
>yourself
 > back on the grid. The first catch is actually a 1/3 chance, not 1/4. But, 
on
 > the 2/3 chance that you don't get blown to hell, you can throw it right
 > back, or safely detonate it elsewhere. I agree, it's powerful, and there
 > should be a way to dodge it. But at the moment, any non-vSOI member 
player
 > needs 24 points to hit somone for 15, and vSOI still needs 12. And, 
again,
 > there's always the chance that you can blast the person that tried to get
 > you. Mostly, this is a way to get rid of pesky Sirens.-

12? Can't we buy a Gnome of any specific type for 4? And won't Bomb be a
Type?

-Heh heh... whoops.-

--
Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Crisis?
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:11:05 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Um... Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me what it says to them?

Quote from r205:

Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. Any
player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a business forum,
declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posting a
message on a business forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. A player who is
On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a player,
and may not take any game actions. If more than 2/3 of all players are On
Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of all
players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave
while The Clock is Off.

I think I see something disastrous right there, but I want to make sure I'm
not hallucinating...

--
Wonko

-It looks fine to me... what do you see wrong with it?-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:17:58 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/3/02 at 6:05 PM Wonko wrote:

>I pick *buzz* up all Gnomes on my square.
>
>I Throw Out all my Gnomes [[Garbage *crackle* can at (12,12), I get 5
>points
>each, 2 Gnomes =3D +10 points]]
>
>I buy 4 rand. Gnomes [[I *buzz* lose 2 points each, 4 Gnomes =3D -8=
 points]]
>
>I Throw *buzz* Out all my Gnomes. [[+20 points]]
>
>I buy 10 rand. Gnomes. [[-20 points]]
>
>I Throw Out all my *buzz* Gnomes. [[+50 points]]
>
>I buy 25 rand. Gnomes. [[-50 points]]
>
>I *buzz* Throw Out all my Gnomes [[+125 points]]
>
>I buy 40 rand. Gnomes. [[-80 points]]
>
>I Throw Out all my Gnomes. [[ *crackle* +200 points]]
>
>I buy *buzz* 100 rand. Gnomes [[-200 points]]
>
>I Throw Out all my Gnomes. [[+500 points *crackle*]]
>
>I buy 200 rand. Gnomes. *buzz* [[-404 points]]
>
>I buy two Sheep Gnomes and put them both in my bag. [[-8 points]]
>
>I Throw Out all my Gnomes but the two Sheep Gnomes. [[+1000 points.
>*crackle* I win.]]
>
>-- 
>Wonk.
>*buzz*

Well...shit. :)

						Glotmorf

At least I know what to make a fifth proposal about...:)

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:08:26 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:17:58 -0400

On 6/3/02 at 6:05 PM Wonko wrote:

 >I pick *buzz* up all Gnomes on my square.
 >
 >I Throw Out all my Gnomes [[Garbage *crackle* can at (12,12), I get 5
 >points
 >each, 2 Gnomes = +10 points]]
 >
 >I buy 4 rand. Gnomes [[I *buzz* lose 2 points each, 4 Gnomes = -8 points]]
 >
 >I Throw *buzz* Out all my Gnomes. [[+20 points]]
 >
 >I buy 10 rand. Gnomes. [[-20 points]]
 >
 >I Throw Out all my *buzz* Gnomes. [[+50 points]]
 >
 >I buy 25 rand. Gnomes. [[-50 points]]
 >
 >I *buzz* Throw Out all my Gnomes [[+125 points]]
 >
 >I buy 40 rand. Gnomes. [[-80 points]]
 >
 >I Throw Out all my Gnomes. [[ *crackle* +200 points]]
 >
 >I buy *buzz* 100 rand. Gnomes [[-200 points]]
 >
 >I Throw Out all my Gnomes. [[+500 points *crackle*]]
 >
 >I buy 200 rand. Gnomes. *buzz* [[-404 points]]
 >
 >I buy two Sheep Gnomes and put them both in my bag. [[-8 points]]
 >
 >I Throw Out all my Gnomes but the two Sheep Gnomes. [[+1000 points.
 >*crackle* I win.]]
 >
 >--
 >Wonk.
 >*buzz*

Well...shit. :)
-Indeed. And you only have to watch it. Hell, I gave him that power... 
Wonko, if it wasn't for the huge lump (he bought 766 points worth of Gnomes 
there, far as I can tell, to be divided among the vSOI members) I may be 
getting at the end of this nweek, I'd hurt you. Severely.-

						Glotmorf

At least I know what to make a fifth proposal about...:)
-"Exploiting a loophole" should be on the LOGAS.-

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Deflating Recycling
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:09:54 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-business: Deflating Recycling
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:23:53 -0400

{{ _Deflating Recycling_

In Subsection A.7 of Rule 441, replace "5 points" with "1 point".

}}

						Glotmorf

[[ Can I kick the Baron in the ass now? :) ]]
-Hey... I didn't know that Wonko would... find and exploit... a loop... 
hole... *sigh* Kick away.-

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:11:46 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Anyone else want to get in on this? :)

						Glotmorf

-You know, if all the members of vSOI do this, we'll all win when those 
bonuses from the Gnome Account come through in three days.-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:16:49 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/3/02 at 11:11 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>Anyone else want to get in on this? :)
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>-You know, if all the members of vSOI do this, we'll all win when those 
>bonuses from the Gnome Account come through in three days.-

Yes, except that those bonuses come through with every 100 points, and=
 every Win wipes out all the points we've received.  But anyone can do a=
 Gnome Scam, not just vSOI people: just do a pseudocode action that does=
 "buy one random Gnome; Throw Out that Gnome" a thousand times...

And each time someone does it, the Clock is turned off.  If everyone gets=
 in on the action, multiple times for multiple Wins, the Clock will be off=
 until next RT year...

I'd be willing to recognize a State of Emergency.  In about four days. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 03:32:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: whee
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Well, that Gnomic win is certainly more fun than, say, the morass of
undefined/infinte numbers that's been floating around of late.

Assuming nobody finds any significant loopholes therein, I'll be
officially recognizing things (and doing all the win-related stuff) on the
morrow.

Wonko: it looks as though congratulations may be in order. :)

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis, MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/     http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/        http://whatIsay.com/

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Daniel Lepage <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Very well...
>
>According to Rule 22, when Wonko was awarded a Win 
>(assuming someone doesn't see a loophole in it...I'm 
>afraid I can't), the effects in Rule 440 kicked in.
>
>According to Rule 440, I (along with everyone else)
get 
>10 points, and am in Limbo.
>
>
>I re-enter the Grid at (12,11).
>
>I buy 5 random Gnomes for 10 points.

And where exactly are you getting 10 points? Scores
were cleared, remember?

-- 
Wonko

__________________________________________________
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Daniel Lepage <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Glotmorf's 10 points
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Sorry, I was a bit vague in my last message. Glotmorf
didn't have 10 points eecause the Grid was on Fire,
and thus e lost 5 points on eir way down. E can still
win though; and if people are going to do that, the
Clock will never turn on and we'll have a real
emergency this time...

-- 
Wonko

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 12:21:11 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:16:49 -0400

On 6/3/02 at 11:11 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

 >Anyone else want to get in on this? :)
 >
 >						Glotmorf
 >
 >-You know, if all the members of vSOI do this, we'll all win when those
 >bonuses from the Gnome Account come through in three days.-

Yes, except that those bonuses come through with every 100 points, and every 
Win wipes out all the points we've received.  But anyone can do a Gnome 
Scam, not just vSOI people: just do a pseudocode action that does "buy one 
random Gnome; Throw Out that Gnome" a thousand times...
-Wrong on the first one: We recieve bonuses at the end of every nweek in 
which there are 100+ points in the Gnome Account. And, yes, the doers don't 
HAVE to be vSOI, but it's a damn sight faster for those who are.-

And each time someone does it, the Clock is turned off.  If everyone gets in 
on the action, multiple times for multiple Wins, the Clock will be off until 
next RT year...
-Well, here's an idea. What if we /don't/ all do that? Wonko got us. Now 
it's done, we'll fix the hole soon, and leave it alone or we hurt you. 
That's directed at everyone. It'l suck if we have to go through 100 wins, 
several days each, because people thought it would be a good idea to win ten 
times each now.-

I'd be willing to recognize a State of Emergency.  In about four days. :)
-I'm not. It's not an emergency, it's a loophole.-

						Glotmorf

                                                  -BvS-

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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:54:46 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 that's it. 

Wonko won.

woohoo.

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:59:36 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/4/02 at 12:21 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>-Wrong on the first one: We recieve bonuses at the end of every nweek in 
>which there are 100+ points in the Gnome Account. And, yes, the doers
>don't 
>HAVE to be vSOI, but it's a damn sight faster for those who are.-

Yeah, but the Clock stops each time a Win is scored.  If people queue up=
 their Win scams while the Clock is off, the first Win scam submitted will=
 be processed the moment the Clock is turned back on, whereupon the Clock=
 will be turned right back off again.  The end of the nweek will never=
 happen.

Though if the nweek ever did end, then, yes, someone in vSOI would then=
 score a Win.  Either all of us would as a sort of tie, or you, Baron,=
 would score one solo, since your name is first on the Member list.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 15:38:16 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: The Non-vSOI-Member Gnome Scam
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Just as an exercise, here's 

{{ _The Non-vSOI-Member Gnome Scam_

I re-enter the Grid at (12,11). [[Point total: 5]]

I buy 1 random Gnome for 4 points. [[1]]

I Throw Out the Gnome for 5 points. [[6]]

I buy 1 random Gnome for 4 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out the Gnome for 5 points. [[7]]

I buy 1 random Gnome for 4 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out the Gnome for 5 points. [[8]]

I buy 2 random Gnomes for 8 points. [[0]]

I Throw Out both Gnomes for 10 points. [[10]]

I buy 2 random Gnomes for 8 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out both Gnomes for 10 points. [[12]]

I buy 3 random Gnomes for 12 points. [[0]]

I Throw Out 3 Gnomes for 15 points. [[15]]

I buy 3 random Gnomes for 12 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 3 Gnomes for 15 points. [[18]]

I buy 4 random Gnomes for 16 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out 4 gnomes for 20 points. [[22]]

I buy 5 random Gnomes for 20 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out 5 Gnomes for 25 points. [[27]]

I buy 6 random Gnomes for 24 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 6 Gnomes for 30 points. [[33]]

I buy 8 random Gnomes for 32 points. [[1]]

I Throw Out 8 Gnomes for 40 points. [[41]]

I buy 10 random Gnomes for 40 points. [[1]]

I Throw Out 10 Gnomes for 50 points. [[51]]

I buy 12 random Gnomes for 48 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 12 Gnomes for 60 points. [[63]]

I buy 15 random Gnomes for 60 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 15 Gnomes for 75 points. [[78]]

I buy 19 random Gnomes for 76 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out 19 Gnomes for 95 points. [[97]]

I buy 24 random Gnomes for 96 points. [[1]]

I Throw Out 24 Gnomes for 120 points. [[121]]

I buy 30 random Gnomes for 120 points. [[1]]

I Throw Out 30 Gnomes for 150 points. [[151]]

I buy 37 random Gnomes for 148 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 37 Gnomes for 185 points. [[188]]

I buy 47 random Gnomes for 188 points. [[0]]

I Throw Out 47 Gnomes for 235 points. [[235]]

I buy 58 random Gnomes for 232 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 58 Gnomes for 290 points [[293]]

I buy 73 random Gnomes for 292 points. [[1]]

I Throw Out 73 Gnomes for 365 points. [[366]]

I buy 91 random Gnomes for 364 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out 91 Gnomes for 455 points. [[457]]

I buy 113 random Gnomes for 454 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 113 Gnomes for 565 points. [[568]]

I buy 142 random Gnomes for 568 points. [[0]]

I Throw Out 142 Gnomes for 710 points. [[710]]

I buy 177 random Gnomes for 708 points. [[2]]

I Throw Out 177 Gnomes for 885 points. [[887]]

I buy 221 random Gnomes for 884 points. [[3]]

I Throw Out 221 Gnomes for 1105 points. [[1108]]

}}

Only 52 steps. Geometric progression is a Wonderful Thing.

						Glotmorf

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Another win
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:55:23 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 3:54 pm, Rob Speer wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:59:48PM -0400, bd wrote:
> > I hereby perform a vSOI Member Gnome Scam.
> >
> > I score a Win.
>
> Not yet, you don't.
>
> I recognize a State of Emergency. (It really is justified, as without i=
t
> this nweek will never finish. Now aren't all of you feeling guilty for
> not accepting my proposal that would make it impossible for two
> successive wins to occur?)

Fine. I recognize a state of emergency, too.

Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:49:35 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Another win
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth bd,

> [[Argh! Quit munging the from thingies!]]
> 
> I recognize a state of emergency, too.
> 

As do I.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:52:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: emergency?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I'll be going through the whole list of queued actions since the last
Recognizer mail this evening. I know a couple people had un-recognized the
emergency (back when it was the previous emergency); I *think* we now have
a quorum for that, but it'll be a while before I'm sure.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis, MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/     http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/        http://whatIsay.com/

Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:05:06 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2a
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> No, Wonko's right.  The Grid does become not of type Fire, but not before the
> end of the nweek, so I lose five points as soon as I land at (12,11).  Which
> means anyone who cut-and-pasted my previous scam didn't score a Win either.
> But that still leaves me five points after the burn, and that's enough for two
> Gnomes...
> 
> So, just for future reference, please file this as a single action under the
> name vSOI Member Gnome Scam (the non-vSOI-Member Gnome Scam is slightly
> different, since the Gnomes cost more for non-Members):
> 
> {{
> 
> I re-enter the Grid at (12,11).
> 
> I buy 2 random Gnomes for 4 points.
> 
> I Throw Out both Gnomes for 10 points.
> 
> I buy 5 random Gnomes for 10 points.
> 
> I Throw Out all 5 Gnomes and gain 25 points.
> 
> I buy 12 random Gnomes for 24 points.
> 
> I Throw Out all 12 Gnomes and gain 60 points.
> 
> I buy 30 random Gnomes for 60 points.
> 
> I Throw Out all 30 Gnomes and gain 150 points.
> 
> I buy 75 random Gnomes for 150 points.
> 
> I Throw Out all 75 Gnomes and gain 375 points.
> 
> I buy 187 random Gnomes for 374 points.
> 
> I Throw Out all 187 Gnomes and gain 935 points.
> 
> I buy 467 random Gnomes for 934 points.
> 
> I Throw Out all 467 Gnomes and gain 2335 points.
> 
> }}
> 
> I hereby perform a vSOI Member Gnome Scam.
> 

Ah, the joys of semantics. Your action is illegal - you can't reenter
(12,11) as you are already there. Since you did the entire thing as a single
action, the entire action was illegal. And emergency handling has kicked in;
by the time it finishes I doubt this option will still be open.

-- 
Wonko
"Does anal retentive have a hyphen?"
"Don't you mean, does anal retentive have a hyphen *in it*?"

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2a
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:05:36 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 6:05 pm, Wonko wrote:
> Ah, the joys of semantics. Your action is illegal - you can't reenter
> (12,11) as you are already there. Since you did the entire thing as a
> single action, the entire action was illegal. And emergency handling ha=
s
> kicked in; by the time it finishes I doubt this option will still be op=
en.

We have 8 now?

Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:25:15 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Another win
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:59:48PM -0400, bd wrote:
>> I hereby perform a vSOI Member Gnome Scam.
>> 
>> I score a Win.
> 
> Not yet, you don't.
> 
> I recognize a State of Emergency. (It really is justified, as without it
> this nweek will never finish. Now aren't all of you feeling guilty for
> not accepting my proposal that would make it impossible for two
> successive wins to occur?)

We'd be fine if we hadn't made it so wins stop the clock. We should have
either both or neither, but not just the one.

-- 
Wonko

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (APOCALYPSE EDITION) (Tuesday afternoon)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:06:37 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 6:59 pm, David E. Smith wrote:
> There's only 13 players, and that's more than half, so Rule Zero fires
> off. Holy bleep.
>
> The Administrator throws his hands up in shock and confusion at this
> point.

ROFLMAO!

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Initializing the Pause...
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:16:27 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 7:09 pm, David E. Smith wrote:
> For the sake of not disrupting game continuity too much, I'll probably
> have a separate Web page for Refresh Proposals (and I've already starte=
d
> working on mine).

I already have one ready. As soon as a forum and an administrtor are sele=
cted,=20
I'll send it in.

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: unanimous consent?
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:16:46 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 7:12 pm, David E. Smith wrote:
> Since the rules are sorta suspended at this point, we can play a bit mo=
re
> informally for a few days...
>
> Would anyone be annoyed if I just propose a sorta "unanimous consent" v=
ote
> for Steps 2 and 3?
>
> If nobody objects to the continuance of the existing Forum and
> Administrator in, say, 48 hours, we'll proceed.

Fine. Whatever.

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: unanimous consent?
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:17:24 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 7:12 pm, David E. Smith wrote:
> Since the rules are sorta suspended at this point, we can play a bit mo=
re
> informally for a few days...

Whoo-hoo! Casual tuesday!

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: unanimous consent? 
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 00:20:51 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> If nobody objects to the continuance of the existing Forum and
> Administrator in, say, 48 hours, we'll proceed.

 Yeah.

 Anyone got any further suggestions re my refresh proposal?

 WC.

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:21:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: this is NOT a refresh proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

... but I think it covers most of the salient points. I did put in a bit
of personal bias, though.

{{

Add to Rule 128, at the bottom of the numbered list, the following:

{{
5. Irrelevant: The question has been rendered moot by other events.
}}

Adjust the gamestate so that the following CFIs are judged IRRELEVANT,
with the modification that they may not be appealed: 756, 757, 758, 762,
764, 766, 767, 768, 772.

Remove item number 5 from the numbered list in Rule 128, and give that
rule revision number 7.

[[ Just to get all that out of the way. Basically, this way I don't have
to change the rules at all, but it clears out all those ugly pending CFIs. ]]

Adjust the gamestate so that no player is recognizing an Emergency.
[[ Otherwise we go through this again instantly. Not fun. ]]

Remove the following proposals from the ballot for nweek 17: 743 [[ 745
does it better ]], 744 [[ bad bad idea ]], 759 [[ you're kidding, right?
]], 760 [[ irrelevant ]], 775 [[ irrelevant ]], 777 [[ weird ]].

Enact Proposal 779, as though it had already been voted on and passed
unanimously. [[ Yes, this includes scoring. ]]

Destroy all DimShips.

Reset the Clock to 17 nweeks, 6 ndays, and turn the Clock On. [[ just to
get us going again ]]

}}

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:30:56 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:24:12PM -0400, bd wrote:
> {{
> 	Replace the paragraph after {{ A.7. Garbage Cans }} in rule 441/2 with the
> 	following text:
> 	{{
> 		There exist objects called Garbage Cans. Garbage Cans are passable,
> 		stationary objects. There is a Garbage Can at each Elbonian Airways
> 		location. Any player who holds a Gnome and is in a square consecutive to a
> 		square that conatains a Garbage Can may Throw Out a Gnome in eir possession,
> 		destroying the Gnome and gaining 1 point. 
> 	}}
> 	Set all player's score dimensions to 10.
> 	Destroy all gnomes in a player's possession.
> 	Restart the clock.
> }}

This doesn't stop recognizing the Emergency (but mine didn't either),
and leaves all the DimShips in existence.  

-- 
Rob Speer

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:31:56 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 7:30 pm, Rob Speer wrote:
> This doesn't stop recognizing the Emergency (but mine didn't either),
> and leaves all the DimShips in existence.

1. The emergence is automatically ended as per r0, methinks.
2. What's wrong with dimships?

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:31:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Refresh Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Rob Speer wrote:

> Okay, actually, it sounds like Dave knows what he's doing. I withdraw my
> Refresh Proposal in support of Dave's.

You may want to wait 'til I actually have one. :-)

I whipped that one out in about ten minutes, and I know of several things
it overlooks, to which I'll attend after I've eaten.

...dave

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Refresh Proposal
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:35:35 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 7:31 pm, David E. Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Rob Speer wrote:
> > Okay, actually, it sounds like Dave knows what he's doing. I withdraw=
 my
> > Refresh Proposal in support of Dave's.
>
> You may want to wait 'til I actually have one. :-)
>
> I whipped that one out in about ten minutes, and I know of several thin=
gs
> it overlooks, to which I'll attend after I've eaten.

What about mine?

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: copy/paste
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:35:53 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I buy 5 random Gnomes for 10 points.

-I bet Wonko's beaten me to saying this, but no, you don't. Putting yourself 
on the Grid, first off, takes away 5 of those 10 points. It's on Fire, 
remember? Second, you're not a member of vSOI. Gnomes cost you 4 points 
apiece. Tough luck there. Third, people, can we let this go? There's no 
glory in repeating what Wonko did. It's just stupid. It isn't like Wins do 
anything for you, anyway. We acknowledge it and move on. Now, if anyone can 
find an /original/ way of winning, I'll respect (not Respect) that. Wonko's 
found one, and almost had another. Can anyone else beat that?-

                                               -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I win
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:37:26 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I buy 5 random Gnomes for 10 points.

-How many dreams can I step on today? You are, unlike Naath, a member of 
vSOI, but you only have 5 points. There. Yours fails, too. Stop it.-

                                              -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2a
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:40:13 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I hereby perform a vSOI Member Gnome Scam.

I score a Win.

						Glotmorf

-*dead serious* Next vSOI member who pulls this stunt (if you pulled it 
before I wrote this, fine) gets Ousted and will not come back. Next non-vSOI 
player who does this (same time stipulation) doesn't join vSOI. I kid you 
not. It's old, folks.-

                                            -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Win 2
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:41:41 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Yeah, but the Clock stops each time a Win is scored.  If people queue up 
their Win scams while the Clock is off, the first Win scam submitted will be 
processed the moment the Clock is turned back on, whereupon the Clock will 
be turned right back off again.  The end of the nweek will never happen.

Though if the nweek ever did end, then, yes, someone in vSOI would then 
score a Win.  Either all of us would as a sort of tie, or you, Baron, would 
score one solo, since your name is first on the Member list.
-Thus making me the first person to win without Gnome trading.-

						Glotmorf

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:45:27 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (APOCALYPSE EDITION)
	(Tuesday afternoon)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> "Repairs - On Leave" is 776/0 (and blatantly illegal, due to its rewriting
> of history, and also irrelevant since the rules don't actually say that
> coming Off Leave is an Action).

I modified it later, I think, to remove the gamestate-changing part... Was
that seen?

> "Fix the *crackle* Game state" is 777/0 (and I'm not sure what it's trying
> to accomplish).

Well, given that DimShips didn't work, and we thought they did for a while,
certain things happened that weren't technically legal. For example, I used
multisyllabic words within the 1-syll threshold. No rule makes those legal;
the rules simply forbid us to talk about those actions. So I figured I'd
better set the gamestate to what's on the website, just in case there are
any nasty illegalities we don't want to have to go back and fix.

-- 
Wonko

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:55:55 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Destroy all gnomes in a player's possession.

-Ooh, you were doing so well... Two things. First, which player's posession? 
Maybe you meant all players. Second, no. Don't kill all the gnomes. What 
have they done?-

                                              -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: Fwd: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:58:12 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

	Destroy all gnomes.
-Bad bd, no biscuit.-
	Cancel all pending actions.
	Set the number of points in the vSOI gnome account to 0.
-Very, very bad bd.-
	Increase bd's Respace by 1. [[ for fixing this mess ]]
-*sigh* You don't have a Respace dimension. Respect?-
	Restart the clock.
}}

_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:17:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Emergency 2.0
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> If a player owns a DimShip and has launched it, then rules other than
> this one that check eir dimension values will check the values of eir
> virtual dimensions. Rules that change the values of dimensions,
> though, will change eir real dimensions.

This could still be broken.  Imagine the consequences of a simple "set the
score of player x to 1 greater than its previous value" otherwise known as
"increase the score of player x by 1" or "give player x 1 point".

bad bad things will happen.

To make DimShips work all the dimension rules will have to be rewritten to
take account for virtual and real dimensions.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:26:09 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Emergency 2.0
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/4/02 at 11:17 PM Dan Waldron wrote:

>> If a player owns a DimShip and has launched it, then rules other than
>> this one that check eir dimension values will check the values of eir
>> virtual dimensions. Rules that change the values of dimensions,
>> though, will change eir real dimensions.
>
>This could still be broken.  Imagine the consequences of a simple "set the
>score of player x to 1 greater than its previous value" otherwise known as
>"increase the score of player x by 1" or "give player x 1 point".

I don't see the problem with this action.  It changes the value of a=
 dimension.  The rule, even in its original form, says the real dimension=
 is used.  It doesn't matter if the action is referencing the dimension at=
 the same time it's changing it; the fact that it's changing the dimension=
 means the real dimension is used, not the virtual one.  And the two=
 sentences in the rule don't conflict, because the precedence rule says the=
 second one takes priority.

I will, though, add "and events" after the second "rules" in that=
 paragraph.

>To make DimShips work all the dimension rules will have to be rewritten to
>take account for virtual and real dimensions.

I disagree.  The dimension rules are stable as they are.  There simply=
 needs to be a clear deliniation between what real and virtual dimensions=
 are used for.

After a point we get to where we're trying to regulate common sense.  It is=
 still my opinion that Wonko's first scam would have failed, even after a=
 miserable nweek of CFIs to determine that fact.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:49:26 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/5/02 at 4:01 PM Wonko the Sane wrote:

>>If a player owns a DimShip and has launched it, then rules other than
>this 
>>one that check eir dimension values will check the values of eir virtual 
>>dimensions. Rules that change the values of dimensions, though, will
>change 
>>eir real dimensions.
>
>I'm still a little leery of two things - 'check' and 'virtual'. I'm still 
>not convinced that the virtual things work, and it's not always clear 
>whether or not a rule is actually 'checking' something or not. Besides,
>why 
>distinguish between checking and setting? I'd suggest something like this:
>
>"If a player owns an Active DimShip, then eir dimensions shall be treated
>as 
>if they were equal to the sum of eir actual dimensions and the virtual 
>dimensions contained by the Active DimShip. The previous sentence does not=
 
>apply to this rule."

I'm trying to prevent deficit spending.  Unless you want to design a credit=
 system, there might be a problem with:

buy a DimShip
set the DimShip's buoyancy to 100 score
buy another DimShip

Were it not for the single-occupancy provision I stuck in another=
 paragraph, this could spiral down to negative infinity on real score.  As=
 it is, it allows someone to spend 100 points e doesn't have.

It helps prevent, like, you know, whatcha call...scams.

I'll give the wording some more thought.  We've got four more days before=
 the first vote, right?

						Glotmorf

From: "Wonko the Sane" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:06:42 +0000
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
>Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:49:26 -0400
>
>On 6/5/02 at 4:01 PM Wonko the Sane wrote:
>
> >>If a player owns a DimShip and has launched it, then rules other than
> >this
> >>one that check eir dimension values will check the values of eir virtual
> >>dimensions. Rules that change the values of dimensions, though, will
> >change
> >>eir real dimensions.
> >
> >I'm still a little leery of two things - 'check' and 'virtual'. I'm still
> >not convinced that the virtual things work, and it's not always clear
> >whether or not a rule is actually 'checking' something or not. Besides,
> >why
> >distinguish between checking and setting? I'd suggest something like 
>this:
> >
> >"If a player owns an Active DimShip, then eir dimensions shall be treated
> >as
> >if they were equal to the sum of eir actual dimensions and the virtual
> >dimensions contained by the Active DimShip. The previous sentence does 
>not
> >apply to this rule."
>
>I'm trying to prevent deficit spending.  Unless you want to design a credit 
>system, there might be a problem with:
>
>buy a DimShip
>set the DimShip's buoyancy to 100 score
>buy another DimShip
>
>Were it not for the single-occupancy provision I stuck in another 
>paragraph, this could spiral down to negative infinity on real score.  As 
>it is, it allows someone to spend 100 points e doesn't have.
>
>It helps prevent, like, you know, whatcha call...scams.
>
>I'll give the wording some more thought.  We've got four more days before 
>the first vote, right?

I would suggest leaving the actual legislation to the Standard Rules - use 
the Emergency Refreshes just to make the game work again. I like the 
'restart the nweek' bit, but why not just add "Players may not use Trash 
Cans or DimShips" to the rules, then fix everything else via standard 
proposals?

--
Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:54:37 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
Mail-Followup-To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 04:01:22PM +0000, Wonko the Sane wrote:
> "If a player owns an Active DimShip, then eir dimensions shall be treated 
> as if they were equal to the sum of eir actual dimensions and the virtual 
> dimensions contained by the Active DimShip. The previous sentence does not 
> apply to this rule."

Calling the displacement "virtual dimensions" is confusing.

As long as you're rewriting the rule, call the displacement
"displacement" and call the _sum_ of the real dimensions and the
displacement the "virtual dimensions".
-- 
Rob Speer

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: Fwd: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:43:03 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 9:58 pm, Alex Truelsen wrote:
> Destroy all gnomes.
> -Bad bd, no biscuit.-

Do you really want to go through and try to figura out exactly how many g=
nomes=20
each player has?

> =09Cancel all pending actions.
> =09Set the number of points in the vSOI gnome account to 0.
> -Very, very bad bd.-

Oh? And a account balance of *insert some unknown, but very very large nu=
mber=20
here* is good?

> =09Increase bd's Respace by 1. [[ for fixing this mess ]]
> -*sigh* You don't have a Respace dimension. Respect?-

Err... yes.

> =09Restart the clock.
> }}
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:43:58 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wednesday 05 June 2002 12:49 pm, Glotmorf wrote:
> On 6/5/02 at 4:01 PM Wonko the Sane wrote:
> >>If a player owns a DimShip and has launched it, then rules other than
> >
> >this
> >
> >>one that check eir dimension values will check the values of eir virt=
ual
> >>dimensions. Rules that change the values of dimensions, though, will
> >
> >change
> >
> >>eir real dimensions.
> >
> >I'm still a little leery of two things - 'check' and 'virtual'. I'm st=
ill
> >not convinced that the virtual things work, and it's not always clear
> >whether or not a rule is actually 'checking' something or not. Besides=
,
> >why
> >distinguish between checking and setting? I'd suggest something like t=
his:
> >
> >"If a player owns an Active DimShip, then eir dimensions shall be trea=
ted
> >as
> >if they were equal to the sum of eir actual dimensions and the virtual
> >dimensions contained by the Active DimShip. The previous sentence does=
 not
> >apply to this rule."
>
> I'm trying to prevent deficit spending.  Unless you want to design a cr=
edit
> system, there might be a problem with:
>
> buy a DimShip
> set the DimShip's buoyancy to 100 score
> buy another DimShip
>
> Were it not for the single-occupancy provision I stuck in another
> paragraph, this could spiral down to negative infinity on real score.  =
As
> it is, it allows someone to spend 100 points e doesn't have.

Actually, if the real points dimension os set to 0, and virtural is 100, =
they=20
can spend 100, and have their real dim remain at 0! See the rule defining=
=20
score for details.

Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 18:28:53 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Glotmorf's 10 points
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Sorry, I was a bit vague in my last message. Glotmorf
> didn't have 10 points eecause the Grid was on Fire,
> and thus e lost 5 points on eir way down. E can still
> win though; and if people are going to do that, the
> Clock will never turn on and we'll have a real
> emergency this time...

Oops. I'm mistaken. We don't lose 5 points for incarnating to the Grid; We
lose 2d5. Eep.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:47:40 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Glotmorf's 10 points
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/5/02 at 6:28 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Wonko,
>
>> Sorry, I was a bit vague in my last message. Glotmorf
>> didn't have 10 points eecause the Grid was on Fire,
>> and thus e lost 5 points on eir way down. E can still
>> win though; and if people are going to do that, the
>> Clock will never turn on and we'll have a real
>> emergency this time...
>
>Oops. I'm mistaken. We don't lose 5 points for incarnating to the Grid; We
>lose 2d5. Eep.

Well, that's a switch.  Still, the state of emergency remains, because even=
 if I don't have enough to purchase a Gnome and get things going, someone=
 else probably will, and I might the next time around.

						Glotmorf

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Glotmorf's 10 points
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:51:10 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wednesday 05 June 2002 8:47 pm, Glotmorf wrote:
> On 6/5/02 at 6:28 PM Wonko wrote:
> >Quoth Wonko,
> >
> >> Sorry, I was a bit vague in my last message. Glotmorf
> >> didn't have 10 points eecause the Grid was on Fire,
> >> and thus e lost 5 points on eir way down. E can still
> >> win though; and if people are going to do that, the
> >> Clock will never turn on and we'll have a real
> >> emergency this time...
> >
> >Oops. I'm mistaken. We don't lose 5 points for incarnating to the Grid=
; We
> >lose 2d5. Eep.
>
> Well, that's a switch.  Still, the state of emergency remains, because =
even
> if I don't have enough to purchase a Gnome and get things going, someon=
e
> else probably will, and I might the next time around.
>
> =09=09=09=09=09=09Glotmorf

And 2d5 can equal 5...

Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:00:16 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/5/02 at 7:06 PM Wonko the Sane wrote:

>I would suggest leaving the actual legislation to the Standard Rules - use=
 
>the Emergency Refreshes just to make the game work again. I like the 
>'restart the nweek' bit, but why not just add "Players may not use Trash 
>Cans or DimShips" to the rules, then fix everything else via standard 
>proposals?

I guess it's not that urgent to fix DimShips now, since no one can afford=
 them anyway...unless there's another scam hiding out there somewhere.  But=
 the recycle prize is a simple change.  If it can be done now, why occupy=
 the bandwidth with the Clock on?

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: Fwd: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:26:18 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Destroy all gnomes.
 > -Bad bd, no biscuit.-

Do you really want to go through and try to figura out exactly how many 
gnomes
each player has?
-I have 8, I think. Something like that. It's not that complicated, really, 
as the way to victory involves pitching all gnomes.-

 > 	Cancel all pending actions.
 > 	Set the number of points in the vSOI gnome account to 0.
 > -Very, very bad bd.-

Oh? And a account balance of *insert some unknown, but very very large 
number
here* is good?
-*sigh* You'll be recieving 1/6 of that very, very large number as soon as 
the next nweek ends, whenever that happens to be...-

 > 	Increase bd's Respace by 1. [[ for fixing this mess ]]
 > -*sigh* You don't have a Respace dimension. Respect?-

Err... yes.

 > 	Restart the clock.
 > }}
 >
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________
 > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
 > http://www.hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:33:24 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: Fwd: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/5/02 at 9:26 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

> > 	Set the number of points in the vSOI gnome account to 0.
> > -Very, very bad bd.-
>
>Oh? And a account balance of *insert some unknown, but very very large 
>number
>here* is good?
>-*sigh* You'll be recieving 1/6 of that very, very large number as soon as=
 
>the next nweek ends, whenever that happens to be...-

I'm afraid I'll have to go along with bd on this one, even though opposing=
 it would benefit me, for the same reason as the DimShips.  If we're=
 starting fresh with stats, let's start fresh with stats.  Otherwise the=
 veterans (and, yes, that includes me) are going to start with a healthy=
 edge.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:21:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: Fwd: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> I'm afraid I'll have to go along with bd on this one, even though
> opposing it would benefit me, for the same reason as the DimShips.  
> If we're starting fresh with stats, let's start fresh with stats.  
> Otherwise the veterans (and, yes, that includes me) are going to start
> with a healthy edge.

I'm in favor of starting fresh but I think it would be good to maintain
continuity in respect points, style points, and style attributes.  Oh, and
the record of wins too, if the game keeps track of that.

Dan Waldron

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 01:18:16 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: Fwd: spoon-business: Refresh proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/6/02 at 12:21 AM Dan Waldron wrote:

>> 
>> I'm afraid I'll have to go along with bd on this one, even though
>> opposing it would benefit me, for the same reason as the DimShips.  
>> If we're starting fresh with stats, let's start fresh with stats.  
>> Otherwise the veterans (and, yes, that includes me) are going to start
>> with a healthy edge.
>
>I'm in favor of starting fresh but I think it would be good to maintain
>continuity in respect points, style points, and style attributes.  Oh, and
>the record of wins too, if the game keeps track of that.

Respect and Style are dimensions, so they'll get wiped automatically by the=
 Win rule.  Style attributes and Wins aren't wiped by anything, so they=
 stick around.

Serves me right for not buying style attributes when I had the points...

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 05:56:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Refresh Proposals
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

They're all Webified in http://www.nomic.net/~g6/refresh/ and thoughtfully
linked from the B Nomic homepage.

Remember that, since there was (I think) a Win awarded before the
Emergency kicked in, all the effects of a Win (including the Rule 440
apocalypse) will be taken into account. I keep overlooking some of the
stuff it does, because there's rather a lot of that.

I've got a rough draft of my refresh proposal on the Web site as well, but
it probably still overlooks a few things. (But we still have time to worry
about that -- the Pause won't actually start counting until later today,
then the first-round votes don't start until five days after that.)

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis, MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/     http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/        http://whatIsay.com/

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:04:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: comments on Refresh Proposals
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Random comments. If I didn't comment on your prop, don't take it personally.

bd: I like "Cancel all pending actions." I may add that to my prop. I do
prefer some explicit setting of the Gnome Account, though, because
otherwise I'll have to (try to) calculate its real value, which gives vSOI
members a big advantage and gives me a headache.

Glotmorf: nice titles. I'd prefer if the Clock were set to nweek 18 if we
go that way, though; otherwise, I'll have to delete stuff wholesale from
the database, and I'd like to preserve these things for posterity and so
on.

Wild Card: Your proposal has some style, but the way it's worded, I can't
help but think there's some loophole that would keep the game from ever
restarting if enough players decided to be obstinate about it. (In all
fairness, though, I'm probably just being paranoid. It's late and I'm
tired.)

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis, MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/     http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/        http://whatIsay.com/

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:18:53 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: comments on Refresh Proposals
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/6/02 at 6:04 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Glotmorf: nice titles. I'd prefer if the Clock were set to nweek 18 if we
>go that way, though; otherwise, I'll have to delete stuff wholesale from
>the database, and I'd like to preserve these things for posterity and so
>on.

At the moment the Grid is on Fire, and I thought it was perhaps best if it=
 was kept that way; would setting to nweek 18 change that, since the Fire=
 goes away at the end of the nweek?

Also, how would preserving the nweek 17 items work with "Discard all=
 proposals and CFIs made since the end of nweek 16 with no penalty to their=
 submitters"?

						Glotmorf

From: "Wonko the Sane" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:34:48 +0000
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip rewrite
>Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:00:16 -0400
>
>On 6/5/02 at 7:06 PM Wonko the Sane wrote:
>
> >I would suggest leaving the actual legislation to the Standard Rules - 
>use
> >the Emergency Refreshes just to make the game work again. I like the
> >'restart the nweek' bit, but why not just add "Players may not use Trash
> >Cans or DimShips" to the rules, then fix everything else via standard
> >proposals?
>
>I guess it's not that urgent to fix DimShips now, since no one can afford 
>them anyway...unless there's another scam hiding out there somewhere.  But 
>the recycle prize is a simple change.  If it can be done now, why occupy 
>the bandwidth with the Clock on?
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>

I guess fixing trash cans is okay, but I'd suggest just banning the 
production of DimShips until you've fixed the rule.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: "Wonko the Sane" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: comments on Refresh Proposals
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:44:52 +0000
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: comments on Refresh Proposals
>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:18:53 -0400
>
>On 6/6/02 at 6:04 AM David E. Smith wrote:
>
> >Glotmorf: nice titles. I'd prefer if the Clock were set to nweek 18 if we
> >go that way, though; otherwise, I'll have to delete stuff wholesale from
> >the database, and I'd like to preserve these things for posterity and so
> >on.
>
>At the moment the Grid is on Fire, and I thought it was perhaps best if it 
>was kept that way; would setting to nweek 18 change that, since the Fire 
>goes away at the end of the nweek?
>
>Also, how would preserving the nweek 17 items work with "Discard all 
>proposals and CFIs made since the end of nweek 16 with no penalty to their 
>submitters"?

The Fires would all go out if we jumped to nweek 18, as the Clock's nweek 
value would have changed, causing a new nweek to begin.

The proposals are more confusing - if we move up the end of the nweek, then 
logically, Voting must have already started, as it starts on the "third to 
last nday of that nweek". Since nobody voted, all the proposals fail, which 
is probably not the effect you had in mind.

However, if they were all discarded, I don't see anything wrong with that. 
Just leave 'em in the Database somewhere, with a little note saying the 
proposal was discarded. Just because they've been excised from the gamestate 
doesn't mean we can't write 'em down.

--
Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:58:12 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Emergency 2.0
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _Glotmorf's R0E2.0 Refresh Prop_
> 
> 
> Set the Clock to nweek 17, nday 1.
> 
> 
> }} [[ End of Refresh Prop ]]

I would strongly advise against tinkering with the Clock.

"One nweek shall be defined to be 10 ndays, or the time between two
consecutive changes in the number of nweeks on The Clock."

That's gonna be blown to hell if the time between two consecutive changes in
the number of nweeks on The Clock ceases to be 10 ndays.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:09:16 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Emergency 2.0
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/6/02 at 6:58 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> {{ _Glotmorf's R0E2.0 Refresh Prop_
>> 
>> 
>> Set the Clock to nweek 17, nday 1.
>> 
>> 
>> }} [[ End of Refresh Prop ]]
>
>I would strongly advise against tinkering with the Clock.
>
>"One nweek shall be defined to be 10 ndays, or the time between two
>consecutive changes in the number of nweeks on The Clock."
>
>That's gonna be blown to hell if the time between two consecutive changes
>in
>the number of nweeks on The Clock ceases to be 10 ndays.

No more so than if the Clock was restarted, say, tomorrow, with only one=
 nday left before proposals were closed and the ballot was due.  At least=
 two proposals that would be on the ballot have to do with the DimShip=
 scam, and another two with the Gnome scam.

What I'm saying is, let's pretend nothing other than your Win actually=
 happened this nweek, and let's start over.  Your Win wasn't dependent on=
 anything else that happened, so nothing else has to have.  Those proposals=
 we still want we can resubmit.  Those CFIs we still think are relevant we=
 can resubmit and re-evaluate.

If we start with nweek 18, all our activity will be -1 because none of us=
 will have voted, plus we'll have to work out which of the end-of-nweek=
 events would have happened and which didn't.  I personally think a=
 rollback will be cleaner than a rollforward.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:25:22 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Emergency 2.0
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 6/6/02 at 6:58 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> {{ _Glotmorf's R0E2.0 Refresh Prop_
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Set the Clock to nweek 17, nday 1.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> }} [[ End of Refresh Prop ]]
>> 
>> I would strongly advise against tinkering with the Clock.
>> 
>> "One nweek shall be defined to be 10 ndays, or the time between two
>> consecutive changes in the number of nweeks on The Clock."
>> 
>> That's gonna be blown to hell if the time between two consecutive changes
>> in
>> the number of nweeks on The Clock ceases to be 10 ndays.
> 
> No more so than if the Clock was restarted, say, tomorrow, with only one nday
> left before proposals were closed and the ballot was due.  At least two
> proposals that would be on the ballot have to do with the DimShip scam, and
> another two with the Gnome scam.

The problem is that we would have a rule that contradicted itself - it tries
to define the time between two consecutive changes in the number of nweeks
on The Clock as 10 ndays. I believe what will happen under your refresh prop
is that the nweek will end when the Clock changes from nday 4 to nday 5,
because that will have been 10 ndays from the end of the last nweek.

That's bad.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:31:37 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Refresh Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/6/02 at 7:13 PM Wonko wrote:

>I submit another Refresh Proposal:
>
>{{
>__Rinse and Repeat__
>
>Replace the number 5 in Subsection A.7 of Rule 441 with a 1.
>
>Give Wonko the title, "Lord of the Gnome Scam".
>
>Give Baron von Skippy [[ Wonko couldn't have done it without em ]] and
>Glotmorf [[ for realizing it in its more insidious form ]] the title,
>"Knight of the Gnome Scam".
>
>Destroy all DimShips.
>
>Destroy all Gnomes.
>
>Empty the Gnome Fund.
>
>Set the Gremlin Fund to 100 points.
>
>Set all player's scores to 0.
>
>Put all players into Limbo.
>
>Discard all proposals made since the end of nweek 16 with no penalty to
>their submitters.
>
>Adjust the gamestate so that the following CFIs are judged REFUSED,
>appealed, and immediately judged REFUSED again: 756, 757, 758, 762, 764,
>766, 767, 768, 772.
>
>Append to r493 the following text:
>"Players may not possess, purchase or launch DimShips."
>
>Create the following rule:
>{{
>__Dead Time__ {*(uncategorize), 10}
>
>No proposals may be submitted or voted on. This rule supercedes all other
>rules. At the end of each nweek, this rule repeals itself.
>}}
>
>Change the Gamestate so that no player is recognizing an Emergency.
>[[Unneccesary, but let's be safe]]
>
>
>Restart the Clock.
>
>}}

Well...okay, but add to the Dead Time rule that Activity shall not be=
 decreased for failing to vote.  Les'n you want everyone to do an "I=
 abstain on everything" just as a keep-alive.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:54:49 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: The Grid!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Does anyone see any obvious flaws with this? I've been working on it for a
while, and I think I've incorporated everything from the multitude of Grid
rules.

New features include:

A definition of a 'carryable' and a 'throwable' object.
More detailed description of a Toad.
The deference clause, which cause all basic Grid rules to defer to their
more specific brethren.

{{
__Neatening Up: The Grid__

Amend r301 to be:

{{
__The Grid__

A. Definitions 

A.1. The Grid

There exists an environment known as the Grid. The Grid is composed of
units, or Squares. The Grid is 20 units wide by 20 units tall. The units are
numbered from 1 to 20 horizontally (the x axis) and 1 to 20 vertically (the
y axis). Each unit on the Grid can be expressed as an (x,y) coordinate
location, with (1,1) in the lower left-hand corner, and (20,20) in the upper
right.

A.2. Grid Objects

There exist objects called Grid Objects. A Grid Object is any object which
can occupy a square of the Grid. All Grid Objects must be either Mobile
Objects (MOs) or Stationary Objects (SOs or Immobile objects), and must be
either Impassable or Passable.

A Grid Object is a MO if it is capable of making a Move. Otherwise, it is a
SO. A Move is a step between two consecutive squares. Two squares are
consecutive if both their x and y coordinates differ by no more than 1.

If a MO tries to Move to a square which cannot be moved to [[like if it
tries to move off the Grid, or into an Impassable object]], it fails to
Move.

If a Grid Object is Impassable, then no other Grid Object may enter the
square it occupies unless a rule explicitly permits those two objects to
overlap. 

All Grid Objects are Passable MOs unless otherwise specified.

A.3 Grid Squares

Each Grid Square has two attributes called Substance and Depth.
Substance describes the material of which the square is made.

Depth describes square's distance beneath the main body of the Grid. Depth
is expressed in integers.

A.3.1 Properties of Squares

All squares are of substance Turf if no other substance has been given to
them. 

If a square of Substance of Earth becomes Wet, its substance becomes Mud.

When a player enters a square of Fire, e loses 2d5 points.

Squares may be Wet, Frozen, or neither. If the temperature is below zero
degrees Celcius, all Wet squares become Frozen. If the temperature is above
zero degrees Celcius, all Frozen squares become Wet. If the temperature is
above 20 degrees Celcius, all Wet squares cease to be Wet.

When a MO enters a Frozen square from any consecutive square, it is
immediately moved an additional unit in the same direction, if possible.

B. Players on the Grid

Units of the Grid may be occupied by Players. Players are either on the Grid
or off the Grid. A Player who is off the Grid is located in Limbo. A Player
who is on the Grid will have a location expressed by the (x,y) coordinate
location of the unit e occupies. Each Player may occupy only one unit at a
time.

B.1. Entrance

Initially, all Players are in Limbo. A Player may enter the Grid by
announcing on a public Forum that e will enter the Grid at a particular
(x,y) coordinate location. A Player may enter the Grid at any legal
location. Once a player has entered the Grid, e shall be considered on the
Grid. Once a player is on the Grid, e may only leave the Grid [[e.g. change
his status to "off the Grid"]] or move to other units on the Grid in a
manner prescribed by the rules. A Player cannot enter the Grid if there are
fewer than two unoccupied locations on the Grid.

Players are Passable MOs, except that no two players may ever occupy the
same square.

B.2. Movement

Once per nweek, any Player on the Grid may announce that e intends to move
to a new (x,y) coordinate location. Unless otherwise prescribed by the
rules, Players may only move from eir current location to any of the units
surrounding eir current location. [[E.g. the x and y coordinates of a
player's location may only be increased or decreased by 1 each nweek.]]
 
Moves on the Grid happen when they are recognized by the Administrator, in
the order in which they were recognized by the Administrator. If a Player
attempts to move into a unit which e may not occupy, eir Move fails and e
remains in eir current location.

B.3. Inventory

Some Grid Objects may be designated by the rules as carryable. Only Passable
MOs may be carryable. If a player occupies the same grid location as a
carryable object, e may pick that object up, in which case the object is
transferred to eir possession. When a player moves, all eir possessions
travel with em. Any player holding a carryable object may drop it, in which
case it leaves eir possession and is placed at the location of the dropping
player. If a player leaves the grid, e first drops all carryable objects in
eir possession.

B.4. Throwing

If a player has a carryable object in eir possession, e may throw it at any
Grid location. That object is said to be Airborne, and is not considered to
be in any Grid location or in Limbo, for two ndays. At the end of the two
ndays, the following occurs:

If the square thrown at (the Target) contains an Impassable object, the
thrown object is placed in a random legal location consecutive to the
Target. If no such locations exist, the object moves to the nearest legal
location to the Target.

If the square thrown at contains a player, and that player has, as an Action
in a public forum, declared that e will catch the object in question, then
that player catches the object and it enters eir possession.

If the square thrown at contains a player, but that player has not declared
that e will catch the object, then e is hit by the object, losing 1d4 points
to the player who threw the object, if one exists, or to the Gremlin Fund,
if not.

If the square does not contain a player or an impassable object, the object
moves to the square.

C. Deference

This section, and all sections preceding it in this rule, defer to any and
all rules or sections of rules which contradict it.

D. Elbonian Airways

There exist passable SOs called Elbonian Airways. Every square of the Grid
which has x and y coordinates that are both integral multiples of 6 is said
to contain an Elbonian Airways. If a player is in a square which contains an
Elbonian Airways, e may pay 2+2n points to be Thrown Elbonia-Style at any
other square which contains an Elbonian Airways, where n is the 5th Gremlin
number.

D.1 Elbonian Throws

The term Being Thrown Elbonia-Style at a square shall refer to the
following:

The Object is moved to a square with coordinates (x+a-3,y+b-3), where x and
y are the x and y coordinates of the square being Thrown at, and a and b are
both 1d5. If an object, after being Thrown, ends up on a square which is
occupied by an Impassable Object, it loses 5 points if it is a player and is
Thrown at that square.

If an Object, after being Thrown, ends up on a square which is off the Grid,
e Falls Off the Edge, or Falls. When a player Falls, e loses 10 points and
is Thrown at a random Square whose coordinates are both less than 15 but
greater than 5, unless e has not landed in a legal square since the last
time e Fell, in which case e loses 8 points and goes into Limbo. When
another object Falls, it is placed on a randomly selected legal grid square.

E. Uncarryable Grid Objects

E.1 Big Rocks

There exist Impassable SO's called Big Rocks. Big Rocks may be purchased to
put on the Grid. When one is purchased, the purchasing entity may either
specify the target location of the Big Rock at a cost of 10+5d3 points, or
allow the Big Rock to be placed randomly at a cost of 5+5d3 points.

A Big Rock must be placed in a vacant location on the Grid, or in the same
location as another Big Rock.

If a Big Rock is placed in the same location as another Big Rock, all Grid
Objects on that location are destroyed, including both Rocks, and the
location becomes vacant.

A Big Rock cannot be placed in a vacant location on the Grid if the number
of vacant locations is less than two.

If a player purchases a Big Rock, and the calculated cost for the Big Rock
is more points than the purchasing Player has, or if a Big Rock cannot be
placed in the location the purchasing Player specified, the purchasing
Player loses points up to and including the cost of the Big Rock (not to
exceed all eir points) and the Big Rock is not purchased.

E.2 Sirens

E.2.1 Creation

There exist Impassable Stationary Objects called Sirens. Sirens are Female.

When a Big Rock is placed on the Grid, the Administrator will roll 1d6 to
determine the presence of a Siren on that Big Rock. If a 6 is rolled, a
Siren is placed on the Big Rock. The Administrator will assign a name to
each new Siren and post the name and location of the Siren (and eir Rock) to
the Grid webpage or a public forum.

E.2.2 ZOE's and ZATR's

Players in any Grid square immediately adjoining a Siren's Zone of
Enchantment (either horizontally, vertically, or diagonally) are in the
Siren's Zone of Almost-Total Rapture (ZATR). Players in a Siren's ZATR may
only move to Grid squares in that Siren's ZATR or Grid squares in that
Siren's ZOE.

Players in any Grid square immediately adjoining a Siren (either
horizontally, vertically, or diagonally) are in the Siren's Zone of
Enchantment (ZOE). Players in a Siren's ZOE may only move to other Grid
Squares in that Siren's ZOE.

E.2.3 Lovemaking

If a player is in the same Siren's ZOE at the end of 2 consecutive nweeks,
that player may elect to Make Love to the Siren by posting this action in a
public forum. Making Love to a Siren removes the Siren from the Grid. When a
player Makes Love to a Siren, the administrator will roll 1d3. If the result
is a 3, that player becomes a Toad for 4 nweeks.

[[To put it simply, if you're in the ring of 9 squares around the Siren, you
can't leave that ring. If you're in the ring of 16 squares around that, you
can only move in that ring or move to the inner ring.]]

E.2.4 Bait

There exist Yves St. Laurent Designer Bags Filled with Expensive Name-brand
Cosmetics, also known as Siren Bait. Players can buy Siren Bait for 10
points. 

A Player can place Siren Bait on a Big Rock not otherwise occupied by a
Siren if e is standing next to it. Beginning with the following nweek, at
the beginning of each nweek until the Bait is taken or ruined, 1d(3*N) is
rolled, where N is the number of nweeks since the Bait was placed. If a 1 is
rolled, the Bait is taken, and a Siren moves onto the Rock.

If the Bait is not taken within 1d5 nweeks of being placed, the Bait becomes
ruined from exposure and is destroyed.

When a Female Cheerleader is in a Grid square immediately adjoining a piece
of Siren Bait (either horizontally, vertically, or diagonally), the
Cheerleader may only move within those squares. The effect is similar to a
Siren's Zone of Enchantment. However, Balls of Wax do not protect against
Siren Bait, and Cheerleaders cannot roll to escape the Zone.

The Cheerleader may attempt to take the Bait by declaring that e is doing so
in a public forum. The Administrator rolls 1d6. If an even number is rolled,
the Cheerleader takes the Bait. Once in eir possession, the Siren Bait
becomes a Purse. If the Cheerleader makes 3 unsuccessful attempts to take
the Bait, the ZOE effect no longer applies.

If a Siren appears where there is Siren Bait, and a Cheerleader is adjacent
to that Siren Bait, a Catfight ensues. 1d20 is rolled for the Cheerleader
and for the Siren. Whoever gets the higher score wins the Catfight. If the
Cheerleader wins, the Siren disappears and the Cheerleader takes possession
of the Bait. If the Siren wins, the Cheerleader goes into Limbo.

E.2.5 Other

If a Female Player enters the area that would be considered a Siren's ZATR,
1d10 is rolled. On a roll of 1, the Player may move freely, as if the Siren
does not exist, until e leaves the Siren's ZATR.

A player under the influence of a Siren may not choose to drop a Big Rock on
that Siren's square.

E.3 The Yeti

There exists an entity called the Yeti. At the start of the 1st nday of each
nweek, the Yeti moves three times, each time to a random square which is not
more than 8 units from the square e is in. When the Yeti leaves a square,
that square becomes Frozen.

F. Carryable Objects

F.1 Toads

Certain events may cause a player to become a Toad. Toads are Carryable,
Throwable, Passable MOs.
While a player is a Toad, the following is true:
Other players may occupy the same location as em.
E may not pick up, catch, or throw objects.
E may not make a move of eir own free will.
E may not use Elbonian Airways.
E is unaffected by Bonus Boxes.
If a player is carrying a Toad, and e would lose points as a result of a
Bonus box, the effects of that box are applied to the Toad instead. If the
player is carrying more than one Toad, one is selected at random.

If a player ceases to be a Toad while in the possession of another player,
or on the same grid square as another non-Toad player, the player who was a
Toad leaves the possession of all players and is Thrown Elbonia-Style at eir
location.
If a Toad is airborne, and e ceases to be a Toad, e is immediately Thrown
Elbonia-Style at the location e was headed for.

When a player becomes a Toad, e drops all eir carryable objects.

F.2 The Big Stick

There exists a Passable, Carryable MO called the Big Stick. If at any time
there is no Big Stick, the Big Stick is placed on a random legal square.

If a player has a Big Stick, e may use it to administer a Whack to a Player
or a Gremlin in an adjacent square. After administering the Whack, the Big
Stick vanishes from the Player's possession and reappears at a random legal
location on the grid.

When a Player receives a Whack, e is knocked two squares away from the
Player with the Big Stick. The Player who has been hit receives the
attribute Dizzy, which lasts until the end of the nweek.

When a Gremlin receives a Whack, it is knocked off the Grid and receives the
attribute Dizzy. It is placed on the Grid again on a random legal square at
the end of the current nweek, if it is Active at that time.

F.3 The Shield 

There exists a Passable, Carryable MO called the Shield. If at any time
there is no Shield, the Shield is placed on a random legal square.

If a player possesses the Shield, and e is Whacked by the Big Stick or Shot
with a Pinball Gun, the Whacking/Shooting player is moved two spaces away
from the player with the Shield, who is not moved, and the Shield is then
destroyed.

F.4 Balls of Wax

There exist Passable, Throwable, Carryable MOs called Balls of Wax. At the
beginning of each nweek, a Ball of Wax is placed on a random legal Grid
Square.

If a Ball of Wax is thrown towards a player who has the Big Stick, e may
Whack the Ball of Wax, causing it to cease to be Airborne and be placed on a
random legal Grid Square.

Any player with a Ball of Wax may Stuff the wax into eir ears as protection
against the wiles of the Sirens. As long as the player has wax in eir ears,
e gains the attribute Deaf. Deaf players are unaffected by Sirens.

After escaping a Siren's ZOE and ZATR or after 1 nweek, whichever comes
first, any player with wax in eir ears must remove the wax, which then
becomes a Ball of Earwax and gains the attribute Disgusting. Balls of Earwax
are Balls of Wax, but may not be used to stuff in ears. A Ball of Earwax,
when thrown at a player, cannot be caught. It explodes on impact, being
destroyed in the process, and the player who has been hit gains the
attribute Icky for 1d3 ndays. If a player hits the Ball of Earwax with the
big stick, the Ball of Earwax explodes and is destroyed, but the bits fall
harmlessly to the ground.

G. Other Stuff

G.1 Radar

Each player has an attribute called Radar. All players initially have a
Radar of 2. If a square containing a Bonus Box is within x squares of a
player, where x is that player's Radar, then the admin shall reveal where
the Bonus Box is, but not what type of Box it is.

G.2 Radar Towers

There exist objects called Radar Towers. Any player who occuppies a square
that does not already contain a Radar Tower may pay 8 points to Build a
Radar Tower on that square. Radar Towers are immovable, passable objects.
Any player who occupies a square containing a Radar Tower is treated as if
eir Radar is 3 greater than it actually is. The previous sentence does not
apply to this section.

G.3 Pinball Guns

Any player who does not have a Pinball Gun may buy one for 2 points. If a
player is on the Grid, and e has a Pinball Gun, e may Fire the Gun at any
square consecutive to eir position. If there is a MO in that square, that MO
moves twice in the direction opposite the one from which it was Fired at,
unless another rule prevents this.

When a player fires a Pinball Gun, e loses it.

}}

Repeal the following rules:

Rule 346/2
Big Rocks
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 348/4
The Yeti
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 349/0
Grid Objects
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 350/0
Pinball Guns
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 351/1
Elbonian Airways
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 352/0
i said i've got a big stick
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 353/0
Shields
Last Revision: nweek 7.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 356/3
Sexy Sirens On The Rocks
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 401/1
A Whole New Ball Of Wax
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 466/1
Radar
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 494/1
Siren Bait
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rule 577/1
Radar Towers
------------------------------------------------------------------------

}}

-- 
Wonko

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Emergency 2.0
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:38:51 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thursday 06 June 2002 6:58 pm, Wonko wrote:
> Quoth Glotmorf,
>
> > {{ _Glotmorf's R0E2.0 Refresh Prop_
> >
> >
> > Set the Clock to nweek 17, nday 1.
> >
> >
> > }} [[ End of Refresh Prop ]]
>
> I would strongly advise against tinkering with the Clock.
>
> "One nweek shall be defined to be 10 ndays, or the time between two
> consecutive changes in the number of nweeks on The Clock."
>
> That's gonna be blown to hell if the time between two consecutive chang=
es
> in the number of nweeks on The Clock ceases to be 10 ndays.

"___or___ the time between two consecutive changes in the number of nweek=
s on=20
The Clock."

(Underscores added)

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Me
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:04:31 +0100
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 I'll be using this address and be rather distracted for the next week
or so, due to moving house... 

 Wild Card.

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:46:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: refresh prop, v0.2
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I believe this covers pretty much everything now - mixes the gamestate up
a little bit, cleans up the most broken things, leaves fun for everyone.

{{

Cancel all pending game actions.

Add to Rule 128, at the bottom of the numbered list, the following:

{{
5. Irrelevant: The question has been rendered moot by other events.
}}

Adjust the gamestate so that all open CFIs are judged IRRELEVANT,
immediately appealed, and subsequently judged IRRELEVANT on appeal.

Remove item number 5 from the numbered list in Rule 128, and give that
rule revision number 7.

[[ Just to get all that out of the way. Basically, this way I don't have
to change the rules at all, but it clears out all those ugly pending CFIs. ]]

Adjust the gamestate so that no player is recognizing an Emergency.
[[ Otherwise we go through this again instantly. Not fun. ]]

Discard all proposals that would have been on the nweek 17 ballot, with no
penalty to their authors.

Replace "5 points" with "1 point" in the Garbage Cans rule [[ which I
can't be arsed to look up right now ]]

Destroy all DimShips.

Remove rachel from the Roster. [[ If she's still out there, and objects to
this, I'll remove this line. If not, well, it's like Garbage Collection. ]]

Place Naath on voluntary Leave. [[ Because e asked for this ]]

Set the Activity, Charm, Respect and Style dimensions of the players to
the following values:

Baron von Skippy: 4, 7, 0, 0
bd: 2, 3, 0, 0
Bean: 9, 5, 0, 0
Dan: 2, -3, 0, 0
Glotmorf: 14, 31.5, 0, 28
Iain: 0, 11.5, 0, 0
Naath: 5, -3, 0, 0
Rob: 7, 16, 1, -3
Slumbering Giant 1: 1, -6, 0, 22
The Voice: 12, 35, 0, 0
Wild Card: 7, 28, 0, 2
Wonko: 13, 45, 1, 15

[[ Basically, set them to the Roster values, 'cept giving Wonko 1 Respect
for the Win. I'll doublecheck those numbers soonish in case I got off by
a column at some point. ]]

Remove the "Fire" attribute from all squares on the Grid. [[ if it's still
there... ]]

Destroy all Gnomes, including those in Players' Gnome Bags.

Place 1d6 random Gremlins on the Grid, in random locations. Place all
other Gremlins in Hiding.

Make the balance of the Gnome Account 50 points. [[ otherwise I have to
figure out what it'd actually be and that'd be one helluva pain ]]

Reset the Clock to 18 nweeks, 1 nday, and turn the Clock On. [[ This is
merely resetting the clock "by hand" and not actually rolling time
forward. Since voting and vote-counting never happened for nweek 17, there
won't be any activity penalties involved. ]]

}}

I've also got (I think) everyone's Refresh Props on the Web site at
/~g6/refresh/ . And later this afternoon, the Pause will finally
initialize, then we've got five more days to hash things out.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis, MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/     http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/        http://whatIsay.com/

From: "The Voice" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: refresh prop, v0.2
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:01:30 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Set the Activity, Charm, Respect and Style dimensions of the players to
>the following values:
>The Voice: 12, 35, 0, 0
>...dave

I think I have a point of Respect...

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Padprinter Engineering Ltd" <[email-masked]>
To: "" <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Special prices of printing machines
Date: Wed,8 ���� 2002 03:30:18 +0800
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

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            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: black">MODELS<o:p>   
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            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">DESKTOP    
            MANUAL PAD PRINTER</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>   
            </o:p>   
            </span></p>   
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            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">500.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>   
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          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">  
  <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">  
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 3&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p>  
            </span></p>  
</font>  
  
          </td>  
        </tr>  
        <tr>  
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">  
            <p align="center"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYT301.htm">MUYT301</a> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">DESKTOP  
            1-COLOR PAD PRINTER</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1080.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">3&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
        </tr> 
        <tr> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115"> 
            <p align="center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS401.htm">MUYS301</a></span> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1-COLOR  
            PAD PRINTER WITH STAND</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1180.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">3&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
        </tr> 
        <tr>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">    
  <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS401.htm">MUYS401</a></span><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS401.htm"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>    
            </span></a></p>    
</font>    
    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US">ALUMINUM</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>    
            </span></p>    
          </td>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1-COLOR     
            PAD PRINTER WITH STAND</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>    
            </o:p>    
            </span></p>    
          </td>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1428.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>    
            </o:p>    
            </span></p>    
          </td>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>    
            </o:p>    
            </span></p>    
            <p align="center" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff">4&quot; 
            * 6&quot;<o:p>    
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
          </td>         
        </tr>         
       
</font>        
        
        <tr>       
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">       
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm">MUYT602-1     
            ALUMINUM</a></span><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>      
            </span></a></p>      
          </td>      
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">      
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">DESKTOP       
            2-COLOR PAD PRINTER</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>      
            </o:p>      
            </span></p>      
          </td>      
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">      
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">2380.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>      
            </o:p>      
            </span></p>      
          </td>      
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">      
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 6&quot;-2</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
        </tr>     
        <tr>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS602-1.htm">MUYS602-1</a></span>      
</font>      
      
            <a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS602-1.htm"> ALUMINUM<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>     
            </span>      
</font>      
      
            </a></p>     
          </td>     
          <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">2-COLOR      
            PAD PRINTER WITH STAND</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">2500.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 6&quot;-2</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
        </tr>     
        <tr>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">     
            <p align="center" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm">MUH-190</a></span><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>     
            </span></a></p>     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center">&nbsp;<span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p></o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">SEMI-AUTO          
            HOT STAMPING MACHINE</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>         
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
          </td>         
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">         
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">825.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>         
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
          </td>         
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">         
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff">150 
            * 200mm          
            300KGF<o:p>         
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff">800PCS/HR<o:p>         
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
          </td>         
        </tr>         
      </tbody>       
    </table>       
  </div>       
</font>       
       
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px">��</p>  
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px"><b>Contact       
        Info:</b></p>      
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px"><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">PADPRINTER     
        ENGINEERING CO LTD</font></b></p>     
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px"><b>ADD:4-401,       
        Lane 5, JinHua West,Ailian A Zone, Longgang,</b></p>     
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px"><b>Shenzhen       
        City, Guangdong Province, P.R.China&nbsp; Post Code: 518116</b>      
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px"><b>Phone/Fax:       
        0086-(0)755-8993172</b>&nbsp;&nbsp; <b>Mobile: +86-013168031959</b></p>     
        <p align="center" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 100%; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 0px"><a href="Http://padprint.51.net"><b>www.printy.net</b></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;    
        <b><a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></b>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;    
        <b><a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></b></p>    
  ��   

   
   
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From: "Padprinter Engineering Ltd" <[email-masked]>
To: "" <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Special prices of printing machines
Date: Wed,8 ���� 2002 03:30:18 +0800
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

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<title>PADPRINTER ENGINEERING LTD</title>
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  <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">   
  <div align="center">   
    <table border="1" cellPadding="0" cellSpacing="0" style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; WIDTH: 455.4pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" width="607">   
      <tbody>   
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          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt" vAlign="top" width="115" bgcolor="#FFFF00">   
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: black">MODELS<o:p>   
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192" bgcolor="#FFFF00">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: black">DESCRIPTION<o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168" bgcolor="#FFFF00">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: black">UNIT      
            PRICE USD FOB SHENZHEN<o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132" bgcolor="#FFFF00">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: black">MAX      
            PLATE SIZE<o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
        </tr>     
        <tr>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/musy150.htm">MUSY150</a></span></p>   
          </td>   
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">   
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">DESKTOP    
            MANUAL PAD PRINTER</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>   
            </o:p>   
            </span></p>   
          </td>   
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">   
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">500.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>   
            </o:p>   
            </span></p>   
          </td>   
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">   
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>   
            </o:p>   
            </span></p>   
          </td>   
        </tr>   
        <tr>   
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">   
            <p align="center"><span style="color: #cc99ff; font-family: Century Gothic" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MP100.htm">MP100</a></span>  
          </td>  
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">  
            <p align="center"><span style="color: #cc99ff; font-family: Century Gothic" lang="EN-US">MOTOR   
            PAD PRINTER</span>  
          </td>  
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">  
            <p align="center"><span style="color: #cc99ff; font-family: Century Gothic" lang="EN-US">880.00</span>  
          </td>  
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">  
  <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">  
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 3&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p>  
            </span></p>  
</font>  
  
          </td>  
        </tr>  
        <tr>  
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">  
            <p align="center"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYT301.htm">MUYT301</a> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">DESKTOP  
            1-COLOR PAD PRINTER</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1080.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">3&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
        </tr> 
        <tr> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115"> 
            <p align="center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS401.htm">MUYS301</a></span> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1-COLOR  
            PAD PRINTER WITH STAND</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1180.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132"> 
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">3&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p> 
            </o:p> 
            </span></p> 
          </td> 
        </tr> 
        <tr>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">    
  <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS401.htm">MUYS401</a></span><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS401.htm"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>    
            </span></a></p>    
</font>    
    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US">ALUMINUM</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>    
            </span></p>    
          </td>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1-COLOR     
            PAD PRINTER WITH STAND</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>    
            </o:p>    
            </span></p>    
          </td>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">1428.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>    
            </o:p>    
            </span></p>    
          </td>    
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">    
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 4&quot;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>    
            </o:p>    
            </span></p>    
            <p align="center" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff">4&quot; 
            * 6&quot;<o:p>    
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
          </td>         
        </tr>         
       
</font>        
        
        <tr>       
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">       
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm">MUYT602-1     
            ALUMINUM</a></span><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>      
            </span></a></p>      
          </td>      
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">      
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">DESKTOP       
            2-COLOR PAD PRINTER</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>      
            </o:p>      
            </span></p>      
          </td>      
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">      
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">2380.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>      
            </o:p>      
            </span></p>      
          </td>      
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">      
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 6&quot;-2</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
        </tr>     
        <tr>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS602-1.htm">MUYS602-1</a></span>      
</font>      
      
            <a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/MUYS602-1.htm"> ALUMINUM<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>     
            </span>      
</font>      
      
            </a></p>     
          </td>     
          <font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">2-COLOR      
            PAD PRINTER WITH STAND</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 126pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="168">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">2500.00</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 99pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="132">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">4&quot; 
            * 6&quot;-2</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>     
            </o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
        </tr>     
        <tr>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 86.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="115">     
            <p align="center" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span style="color: #cc99ff" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm">MUH-190</a></span><a href="http://www.printy.net/MU/mu_series.htm"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"></o:p>     
            </span></a></p>     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center">&nbsp;<span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p></o:p>     
            </span></p>     
          </td>     
          <td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 144pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign="top" width="192">     
            <p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic'">SEMI-AUTO          
            HOT STAMPING MACHINE</span><span lang="EN-US" style="COLOR: #cc99ff"><o:p>         
            </o:p>         
            </span></p>         
          </td>         
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------=_=_NextPart_CCC_DDDD_01C11A8E.4ECE36A0--
------=_=_NextPart_AAA_BBBB_01C11A5B.CEFD965--

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: fscking spam
From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:51:21 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I'm going to be transitioning the lists to Mailman Real Soon Now(tm). It 
really irritates me that Majordomo lets spam through. Grr.

-- 
J.

From: bd <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: refresh prop, v0.2
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:30:14 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Friday 07 June 2002 1:46 pm, David E. Smith wrote:
> I believe this covers pretty much everything now - mixes the gamestate =
up
> a little bit, cleans up the most broken things, leaves fun for everyone=
=2E
>
> {{
>
> Cancel all pending game actions.
>
> Add to Rule 128, at the bottom of the numbered list, the following:
>
> {{
> 5. Irrelevant: The question has been rendered moot by other events.
> }}
>
> Adjust the gamestate so that all open CFIs are judged IRRELEVANT,
> immediately appealed, and subsequently judged IRRELEVANT on appeal.
>
> Remove item number 5 from the numbered list in Rule 128, and give that
> rule revision number 7.

Why not leave it in? Seems okay to me...

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 23:01:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: refresh prop, v0.2
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, bd wrote:

> > 5. Irrelevant: The question has been rendered moot by other events.
> Why not leave it in? Seems okay to me...

Because, in general, it'd be entirely too easy of an "out." Even if
something has been rendered moot, it's usually a good idea to have a
decision on record, for posterity and for precedent.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis, MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/     http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/        http://whatIsay.com/

Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 21:02:36 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> {{
> 5. Irrelevant: The question has been rendered moot by other events.
> }}

What's the difference between Irrelevant and Refused? 'moot' or 'not germain
to the game'?

> Replace the second "bullet point" item [[ the +1 respect clause ]] of Rule
> 22 with the following, incrementing the revision number of that Rule:
> {{
> * The Player awarded the Win is given a Trophy.
> }}
> 
> Create the following new rule:
> {{
> __Trophies__
> 
> There exist game objects called Trophies. Trophies may only be created,
> transferred, or destroyed in ways explicitly permitted by the Rules.
> 
> Trophies are awarded for actions of exceptional merit or otherwise worthy
> of superlative recognition. The owner of a Trophy gains one point of
> Respect as long as e owns that Trophy.
> 
> Trophies may NOT be created by Proposals, or by the direct or indirect
> effects of Proposals.
> 
> }}

I actually thought a Win was an object - I've been awarded a win, therefore
I've got an object in my pocket called 'a Win'. Also, I'm not sure you
really mean "The owner of a Trophy gains one point of Respect as long as e
owns that Trophy." That either means that as long as one has a Trophy, one's
Respect keeps rising, which means infinite Respect instantaneously, or as
long as one has a Trophy, one's respect is 1, which means one can neither
gain nor lose respect. I think just giving someone a point of Respect ought
to work - we just need to fix the win rule so it doesn't clear Respect when
it blows up.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:21:16 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/7/02 at 11:26 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>This also circumvents a lot of
>other ugly end-of-nweek things, like paying the Ministers, Rocky, and so
>on.

Hey!  I was counting on that Ministry payment!  Right now it's up to 12 --=
 one for the insta-rule the Pig et, six for the insta-rules killed (all of=
 them, because of the Win),  four for the insta-rules created (also because=
 of the Win) and one for the one bd declared after the end of nweek 16.

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:30:20 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Reset the Clock to 18 nweeks, 1 nday, and turn the Clock On.
> 
> [[ This is merely resetting the clock "by hand" and not actually rolling
> time forward. Since voting and vote-counting never happened for nweek 17,
> there won't be any penalties involved. This also circumvents a lot of
> other ugly end-of-nweek things, like paying the Ministers, Rocky, and so
> on.  Things that occur at the BEGINNING of an nweek will happen normally. ]]

Things that happen at the end of the nweek will happen too. The Clock rule,
number 2, I think, defines an nweek to be the time between two consecutive
changes of the clock's nweek meter. Setting it to 18 nweeks would change it,
causing the nweek to end.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:33:50 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 6/7/02 at 11:26 PM David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> This also circumvents a lot of
>> other ugly end-of-nweek things, like paying the Ministers, Rocky, and so
>> on.
> 
> Hey!  I was counting on that Ministry payment!  Right now it's up to 12 -- one
> for the insta-rule the Pig et, six for the insta-rules killed (all of them,
> because of the Win),  four for the insta-rules created (also because of the
> Win) and one for the one bd declared after the end of nweek 16.
> 
> Glotmorf

What happened to "If we're starting fresh with stats, let's start fresh with
stats"?

Having more than twice any other player's score is hardly 'fresh'.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 02:33:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Wonko wrote:

> > [[ This is merely resetting the clock "by hand" and not actually rolling
> > time forward. Since voting and vote-counting never happened for nweek 17,
> > there won't be any penalties involved. This also circumvents a lot of
> > other ugly end-of-nweek things, like paying the Ministers, Rocky, and so
> > on.  Things that occur at the BEGINNING of an nweek will happen normally. ]]
>
> Things that happen at the end of the nweek will happen too. The Clock rule,
> number 2, I think, defines an nweek to be the time between two consecutive
> changes of the clock's nweek meter. Setting it to 18 nweeks would change it,
> causing the nweek to end.

But since we're in an Emergency, we can pretty much circumvent any other
rules we want. That's the nifty thing about it. :-)

I'm open to suggestions on better ways to phrase things, so that my intent
is unambiguous (in a legal sense) but I think you see what I *want* to do.
(And if my prop is the one adopted, I'm the one who has to implement it,
so that, as they say, will be that. :)

...dave

Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:42:02 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/7/02 at 10:33 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> On 6/7/02 at 11:26 PM David E. Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> This also circumvents a lot of
>>> other ugly end-of-nweek things, like paying the Ministers, Rocky, and=
 so
>>> on.
>> 
>> Hey!  I was counting on that Ministry payment!  Right now it's up to 12
>-- one
>> for the insta-rule the Pig et, six for the insta-rules killed (all of
>them,
>> because of the Win),  four for the insta-rules created (also because of
>the
>> Win) and one for the one bd declared after the end of nweek 16.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>What happened to "If we're starting fresh with stats, let's start fresh
>with
>stats"?
>
>Having more than twice any other player's score is hardly 'fresh'.

Aren't I entitled to my own hypocracy? :)

The one serious argument I could muster for Ministry fees is that a=
 Minister is helping the Administrator run the game, and is getting a fee=
 for it, and the running of the game is a task that continues with or=
 without Wins, Entropy resets or states of emergency.  But if there's=
 enough public outcry I won't fight not getting the points.

Though if we're starting with totally fresh stats, should we re-elect=
 Ministers too?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 16:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: my REAL refresh prop
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 6/7/02 at 10:33 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> On 6/7/02 at 11:26 PM David E. Smith wrote:
>>> 
>>>> This also circumvents a lot of
>>>> other ugly end-of-nweek things, like paying the Ministers, Rocky, and so
>>>> on.
>>> 
>>> Hey!  I was counting on that Ministry payment!  Right now it's up to 12
>> -- one
>>> for the insta-rule the Pig et, six for the insta-rules killed (all of
>> them,
>>> because of the Win),  four for the insta-rules created (also because of
>> the
>>> Win) and one for the one bd declared after the end of nweek 16.
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> What happened to "If we're starting fresh with stats, let's start fresh
>> with
>> stats"?
>> 
>> Having more than twice any other player's score is hardly 'fresh'.
> 
> Aren't I entitled to my own hypocracy? :)
> 
> The one serious argument I could muster for Ministry fees is that a Minister
> is helping the Administrator run the game, and is getting a fee for it, and
> the running of the game is a task that continues with or without Wins, Entropy
> resets or states of emergency.  But if there's enough public outcry I won't
> fight not getting the points.
> 
> Though if we're starting with totally fresh stats, should we re-elect
> Ministers too?

We should hold a new Grid Minister Election, as we don't have one, but I see
no reason to hold another election for your position - it'll take time and
effort to run the election, and you'll just be elected anyway.

As for the points, I think perhaps you shouldn't be paid for the Insta-Rules
destroyed/created by the win, as that essentially means you're starting out
at least 4 points ahead, but you should get paid for the others.

Besides, I'm being just as hypocratic - I get a free gnome at the end of the
nweek :)

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 16:51:57 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Refresh Fix?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Say, would it work if I replaced this:

"Create the following rule:
{{
__Dead Time__ {*(uncategorize), 10}

No proposals may be submitted or voted on. This rule supercedes all other
rules. At the end of each nweek, this rule repeals itself.
}}"

with this:

"Advance the Clock as if it were 00:00:00 UTC and the Clock were on. Repeat
this process until the Clock displays nweek 18."

Then, we run through the last few days of the nweek all at once - the number
of ndays doesn't change, just the length of the ndays.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 23:04:05 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Refresh Fix?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/8/02 at 4:51 PM Wonko wrote:

>Say, would it work if I replaced this:
>
>"Create the following rule:
>{{
>__Dead Time__ {*(uncategorize), 10}
>
>No proposals may be submitted or voted on. This rule supercedes all other
>rules. At the end of each nweek, this rule repeals itself.
>}}"
>
>with this:
>
>"Advance the Clock as if it were 00:00:00 UTC and the Clock were on.=
 Repeat
>this process until the Clock displays nweek 18."
>
>Then, we run through the last few days of the nweek all at once - the
>number
>of ndays doesn't change, just the length of the ndays.

Only if we're sure there was nothing in nweek 16 worthy of a CFI.  If we go=
 to nweek 18, nweek 16 will be past the statute of limitations.

Besides, there are some (though not many) actions other than proposals that=
 could be taken in the remainder of nweek 17.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 23:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

oes anyone have any idea what would happen if a proposal like the
following passed?

{{
Set the clock to nweek 2.
}}

Or maybe I should write a Relativity proposal that allows the clock to
read different things for different players.  Hmm.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:01:44 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Does anyone have any idea what would happen if a proposal like the
following passed?

{{
Set the clock to nweek 2.
}}

Or maybe I should write a Relativity proposal that allows the clock to
read different things for different players.  Hmm.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

-In my opinion, which may be wrong, probably very little, except all the 
dates on the webpage make a lot less sense. It would certainly make it more 
interesting to talk about this game to non-player people... "Yeah, so Wonko 
found a loophole in the rules you could drive a train through around nweek 
17, and it took us until nweek 2 to sort it all out." Then again, people I 
talk about this game to already give me plenty of blank stares, so what's a 
few more?-

                                              -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:28:25 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/8/02 at 11:50 PM Dan Waldron wrote:

>oes anyone have any idea what would happen if a proposal like the
>following passed?
>
>{{
>Set the clock to nweek 2.
>}}
>
>Or maybe I should write a Relativity proposal that allows the clock to
>read different things for different players.  Hmm.

The Relativity proposal would be Bad.  It would make it impossible for=
 players to coordinate any action that wasn't in the same nweek.  Granted,=
 it hasn't come up that much up to now, but I could see a group planning=
 something that'd stretch over two or three nweeks, and having a colossally=
 hard time if all time references had to be in terms of <current nweek>+N.

As for setting the clock to nweek 2, Mr. A would probably veto it because=
 it'd mess up his database.  I'd add my objections because of my own=
 database.  The rules may not care overmuch, though there's the nyear rule=
 to consider.

Why would you want to set the clock back to nweek 2?  So that the game=
 doesn't feel ancient?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:06:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> As for setting the clock to nweek 2, Mr. A would probably veto it
> because it'd mess up his database.  I'd add my objections because of
> my own database.  The rules may not care overmuch, though there's the
> nyear rule to consider.
> 
> Why would you want to set the clock back to nweek 2?  So that the game
> doesn't feel ancient?

Oh I'm not seriously suggesting this, folk.  This is definetly out there
on the probably-not-possible-but-fun-to-think-about edge.  Actually, I
have a feeling that you folks consider plenty of my legitimate proposals
to be out there too, but this one is especially distant.

If we were to set the clock back to nweek 2 then presumably the rules as
of nweek 2 would be in effect.  Am I right in assuming that only players
who had not voted in the first nweek 2 would be allowed to vote?  Would
all of our attributes be set back to their nweek 2 values or would we have
to specify that somewhere else if we wanted it.  Would players who had
joined since nweek 2 be booted, since, presumably a demonstration of
intent to be a player has no effect before it is submitted?  And then when
we get to nweek 3 would all the real changes we made in nweek 2 be
automatically be made or would we have to propose them all over again?

I am tempted to propose something like a weakened form of the relativity
proposal.  Time could move at different rates for different players,
probably done by changing the number of ndays in the nweek.  The Admin
wouldn't have to work ahead though.  Basically if a player got to the next
nweek before the Admin, the Admin wouldn't be able to recognize eir
actions until e know if they are legal under the new rules.  This time lag
might be some sort of handicap for players who write too much--a little
like Entropy is now.

That said, i'm not actually a big fan of entropy and given the choice I
would probably prefer to squish it and not worry about syllables..

Dan

Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:45:15 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Dan Waldron,

>> As for setting the clock to nweek 2, Mr. A would probably veto it
>> because it'd mess up his database.  I'd add my objections because of
>> my own database.  The rules may not care overmuch, though there's the
>> nyear rule to consider.
>> 
>> Why would you want to set the clock back to nweek 2?  So that the game
>> doesn't feel ancient?
> 
> Oh I'm not seriously suggesting this, folk.  This is definetly out there
> on the probably-not-possible-but-fun-to-think-about edge.  Actually, I
> have a feeling that you folks consider plenty of my legitimate proposals
> to be out there too, but this one is especially distant.
> 
> If we were to set the clock back to nweek 2 then presumably the rules as
> of nweek 2 would be in effect.  Am I right in assuming that only players
> who had not voted in the first nweek 2 would be allowed to vote?  Would
> all of our attributes be set back to their nweek 2 values or would we have
> to specify that somewhere else if we wanted it.  Would players who had
> joined since nweek 2 be booted, since, presumably a demonstration of
> intent to be a player has no effect before it is submitted?  And then when
> we get to nweek 3 would all the real changes we made in nweek 2 be
> automatically be made or would we have to propose them all over again?
> 
> I am tempted to propose something like a weakened form of the relativity
> proposal.  Time could move at different rates for different players,
> probably done by changing the number of ndays in the nweek.  The Admin
> wouldn't have to work ahead though.  Basically if a player got to the next
> nweek before the Admin, the Admin wouldn't be able to recognize eir
> actions until e know if they are legal under the new rules.  This time lag
> might be some sort of handicap for players who write too much--a little
> like Entropy is now.
> 
> That said, i'm not actually a big fan of entropy and given the choice I
> would probably prefer to squish it and not worry about syllables..

I actually think that setting the Clock to nweek 2 would do very little. The
way the Clock's phrased makes it so that it doesn't control time, just
record it. If we set the Clock to nweek 2 at the end of nweek 17, we'll
still be in nweek 18 of the game, the Clock will just be wrong.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:46:46 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Dan Waldron,

> 
> oes anyone have any idea what would happen if a proposal like the
> following passed?
> 
> {{
> Set the clock to nweek 2.
> }}

This would actually make the Clock read nweek 3... Remember, the Clock's
zero-based; there's just a rule somewhere that says it gets displayed with
one added to the nweek.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 11:49:38 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Refresh Fix?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 6/8/02 at 4:51 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Say, would it work if I replaced this:
>> 
>> "Create the following rule:
>> {{
>> __Dead Time__ {*(uncategorize), 10}
>> 
>> No proposals may be submitted or voted on. This rule supercedes all other
>> rules. At the end of each nweek, this rule repeals itself.
>> }}"
>> 
>> with this:
>> 
>> "Advance the Clock as if it were 00:00:00 UTC and the Clock were on. Repeat
>> this process until the Clock displays nweek 18."
>> 
>> Then, we run through the last few days of the nweek all at once - the
>> number
>> of ndays doesn't change, just the length of the ndays.
> 
> Only if we're sure there was nothing in nweek 16 worthy of a CFI.  If we go to
> nweek 18, nweek 16 will be past the statute of limitations.
> 
> Besides, there are some (though not many) actions other than proposals that
> could be taken in the remainder of nweek 17.

Well, yes, but I think it might be better not to have anything else happen
'til the end of the nweek...

And I doubt there's any CFI worthy nweek 16 action that hasn't already been
CFI'd at least twice.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:06:12 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Time travel?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 6/9/02 at 7:06 AM Dan Waldron wrote:

>If we were to set the clock back to nweek 2 then presumably the rules as
>of nweek 2 would be in effect.  Am I right in assuming that only players
>who had not voted in the first nweek 2 would be allowed to vote?  Would
>all of our attributes be set back to their nweek 2 values or would we have
>to specify that somewhere else if we wanted it.  Would players who had
>joined since nweek 2 be booted, since, presumably a demonstration of
>intent to be a player has no effect before it is submitted?  And then when
>we get to nweek 3 would all the real changes we made in nweek 2 be
>automatically be made or would we have to propose them all over again?

If you really wanted to accomplish this, you'd have to say something like,=
 "change the gamestate to what it was as of nweek 2."  I daresay I'd vote=
 against that, since it'd wipe out me and everything I'd done.

>I am tempted to propose something like a weakened form of the relativity
>proposal.  Time could move at different rates for different players,
>probably done by changing the number of ndays in the nweek.  The Admin
>wouldn't have to work ahead though.  Basically if a player got to the next
>nweek before the Admin, the Admin wouldn't be able to recognize eir
>actions until e know if they are legal under the new rules.  This time lag
>might be some sort of handicap for players who write too much--a little
>like Entropy is now.

If you changed the number of ndays per nweek for different players, but=
 still confined everyone within nweeks, you'd make some players wait for=
 other players.  That'd get kind of old, wouldn't it?

>That said, i'm not actually a big fan of entropy and given the choice I
>would probably prefer to squish it and not worry about syllables..

Have I mentioned my fondness for taxing the rich and powerful, or for=
 making the game more "interesting" for the more successful? :)

						Glotmorf