Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Sushi
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:26:34 -0500

At the Time of Four Hours and Twelve Minutes after the Hour of Noon on the
Twenty-Ninth Day of the Third Month of the Two-Thousand and Second Year
since the First Year of the Commonly Accepted Calendar of the Modern World,
Thus Quoth Wonko,

> I give Sushi to the voice

It has been Three Ndays Since these Events Came to Pass.

Three is Not Four.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:08:07 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Sushi
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> At the Time of Four Hours and Twelve Minutes after the Hour of Noon on the
> Twenty-Ninth Day of the Third Month of the Two-Thousand and Second Year
> since the First Year of the Commonly Accepted Calendar of the Modern World,
> Thus Quoth Wonko,
> 
>> I give Sushi to the voice
> 
> It has been Three Ndays Since these Events Came to Pass.
> 
> Three is Not Four.
> 

Oh, someone said that already. Ne'er mind, then.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:22:20 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Thuthi thcarf, eh?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Lithping ith thtrategically utheful thould thomeone theek thuthi defenthe=
 and thinthe wordth thlip patht tranthlathion }lithped{. Thith tectht hath=
 babelfith }thurvived{.   
 
Thuthi thcarf?  Nonthenthe.   

						Glotmorfth

Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:02:33 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:19 PM 2002-04-01 -0500, you wrote:
>Quoth r23:
>
>"The Administrator shall, at least 48 hours prior to the close of voting
>each nweek, distribute to all Players the Ballot for that nweek. The Ballot
>shall list all proposals that were recognized after the start of the
>previous nweek's voting period."
>
>I have yet to see such a Ballot this nweek, even though the deadline has
>passed. My question is this: Has the Ballot in fact been distributed to all
>players, and listed all proposals that were recognized after the start of
>the previous nweek's voting period? Because according to the world, the
>admin hasn't sent it out, and according to the rule, e has... Do we have
>some procedure for dealing with rules that make false statements?
>     As far as I can tell, the procedure so far has been to assume the
>statement is true within the context of the Nomic Game, as in, although
>there is not, in the real world, a Scoring Gremlin, we assume the statement
>"There exists a Gremlin called the Scoring Gremlin" to be true in the
>context of the Game. But by that logic, we must also assume that the Admin
>has, in fact, already distributed 'a Ballot' which has listed all proposals
>for this nweek. So it's 'happened'. It just hasn't happened.

I know I'm a stickler for rule accuracy and literality, so I'm thinking 
that we have two options in this scenario.  Option one, invoke rule 0.  I 
don't like that option, it's icky.

Option two:  Informal vote:  Stop the clock until such a time as the admin 
starts it again.  It's our game, and we can do what we want to.  If we all 
turn a blind eye to it, sure it's against the rules but we'll never know 
the difference.  I vote yes on my informal proposal.  Anyone else?

Bean

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:48:08 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/1/02 at 11:02 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>At 10:19 PM 2002-04-01 -0500, you wrote:
>>Quoth r23:
>>
>>"The Administrator shall, at least 48 hours prior to the close of voting
>>each nweek, distribute to all Players the Ballot for that nweek. The
>Ballot
>>shall list all proposals that were recognized after the start of the
>>previous nweek's voting period."
>>
>>I have yet to see such a Ballot this nweek, even though the deadline has
>>passed. My question is this: Has the Ballot in fact been distributed to
>all
>>players, and listed all proposals that were recognized after the start of
>>the previous nweek's voting period? Because according to the world, the
>>admin hasn't sent it out, and according to the rule, e has... Do we have
>>some procedure for dealing with rules that make false statements?
>>     As far as I can tell, the procedure so far has been to assume the
>>statement is true within the context of the Nomic Game, as in, although
>>there is not, in the real world, a Scoring Gremlin, we assume the
>statement
>>"There exists a Gremlin called the Scoring Gremlin" to be true in the
>>context of the Game. But by that logic, we must also assume that the=
 Admin
>>has, in fact, already distributed 'a Ballot' which has listed all
>proposals
>>for this nweek. So it's 'happened'. It just hasn't happened.
>
>I know I'm a stickler for rule accuracy and literality, so I'm thinking 
>that we have two options in this scenario.  Option one, invoke rule 0.  I 
>don't like that option, it's icky.
>
>Option two:  Informal vote:  Stop the clock until such a time as the admin=
 
>starts it again.  It's our game, and we can do what we want to.  If we all=
 
>turn a blind eye to it, sure it's against the rules but we'll never know 
>the difference.  I vote yes on my informal proposal.  Anyone else?
>
>Bean

Are there any new propothalth or modificathionth to propothalth that=
 haven't been recognithed yet?  Do we accurately know at thith point what=
 the ballot ith?

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot? 
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:44:00 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Are there any new propothalth or modificathionth to propothalth that=
>  haven't been recognithed yet?  Do we accurately know at thith point what=
>  the ballot ith?

 Well, I submitted a proposal and CFJ that I don't believe has been recognised.

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:49:27 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot? 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 03:44 PM 2002-04-02 +0100, you wrote:
> > Are there any new propothalth or modificathionth to propothalth that=
> >  haven't been recognithed yet?  Do we accurately know at thith point what=
> >  the ballot ith?
>
>  Well, I submitted a proposal and CFJ that I don't believe has been 
> recognised.

Watashi mo.  I've got an unrecognised proposal out there too.

Bean

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:48:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: The Late Late Late Apology
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I won't go into all the sordid details, but I've been occupied the past
couple days.

I hope everyone realizes that this is just a game, and doesn't make my
life hell by CFJing my sorry arse.

...dave "who mysteriously finds himself in love"

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Daily Recognizer 
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:39:41 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> "You can't have Footballing co-Color Commentators" is 535/0.

 I at least attempted to create a CFJ with that post too...

 WC.

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:01:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: The Late Late Late Apology
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> I won't go into all the sordid details, but I've been occupied the past
> couple days.
>
> I hope everyone realizes that this is just a game, and doesn't make my
> life hell by CFJing my sorry arse.

Hey, it's all cool with me.

> ...dave "who mysteriously finds himself in love"

Woo!  Congrats Dave!

Bean

P.S. I think I found out where that proposal that wouldn't go into the DB
is.... anyone checked out Rule 0 lately?  I'm guessin that what happened
is all those quotes in there screwed with the PHP parser and it ended up
updating the wrong record.  Or something like that.

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:16:45 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> My interpretation of the rules is that, since the ballot must be issued at
> least 48 hours before the end of Voting, that this is a vote-able Ballot
> for the next 48 hours. Votes that are timestamped within the next 48 hours
> after when this mail is sent will be considered valid.
> 
> ...dave

But the rules also say that Voting on a nweek's Ballot closes at the end of
the last nday of that nweek.

Bean's idea of an 'informal proposal' is interesting; I suspect, however,
that if we start getting fuzzy with the ruleset things are going to get
confusing really fast. My suggestion is this: VOTE! So what if voting closes
earlier than we thought? Just Vote Now, and there won't be a problem.

Then, if anyone doesn't vote in time, we can just propose to alter the rules
to reflect the passing/failing that would occur if the late votes had been
on time.

--Wonko

Clones are people two.

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:18:24 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: The Late Late Late Apology
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> I won't go into all the sordid details, but I've been occupied the past
> couple days.
> 
> I hope everyone realizes that this is just a game, and doesn't make my
> life hell by CFJing my sorry arse.

Not a problem.

> ...dave "who mysteriously finds himself in love"

Congratulations! I'd drink to you, but I've already used my only available
alcohol :)

--Wonko

"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?"
    - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: The Late Late Late Apology 
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:24:03 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I won't go into all the sordid details, but I've been occupied the past
> couple days.
> 
> I hope everyone realizes that this is just a game, and doesn't make my
> life hell by CFJing my sorry arse.

 Yah, no problems.
 
> ...dave "who mysteriously finds himself in love"

 Shinythings!

 WC.

 (**poing!**)

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:03:14 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 03:46:12PM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
> My interpretation of the rules is that, since the ballot must be issued at
> least 48 hours before the end of Voting, that this is a vote-able Ballot
> for the next 48 hours. Votes that are timestamped within the next 48 hours
> after when this mail is sent will be considered valid.

Hmm, that's a pretty useful interpretation, and seems to work.

But doesn't this mean that the new nweek will begin before voting is
finished?

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:31 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-business: Re: spoon-discuss: The Late Late Late Apology
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

>> P.S. I think I found out where that proposal that wouldn't go into the DB
>> is.... anyone checked out Rule 0 lately?  I'm guessin that what happened
>> is all those quotes in there screwed with the PHP parser and it ended up
>> updating the wrong record.  Or something like that.
> 
> Bean'th right...Rule 0 ith totally hothed.  I have a copy of an unhothed (and
> I think current) verthion of Rule 0 if needed.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

The real rule 0 is stored in the database as 0/0. Check the Revision History
of 'Object' 0/1.

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:12:42 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot
	For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 03:46:12PM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
>> My interpretation of the rules is that, since the ballot must be issued at
>> least 48 hours before the end of Voting, that this is a vote-able Ballot
>> for the next 48 hours. Votes that are timestamped within the next 48 hours
>> after when this mail is sent will be considered valid.
> 
> Hmm, that's a pretty useful interpretation, and seems to work.
> 
> But doesn't this mean that the new nweek will begin before voting is
> finished?

Seems to me we've got a contradiction in the ruleset - one rule says that
the Ballot comes out at least 48 hours before the end of Voting (Rule 23,
The Ballot), the other says that Voting ends at the end of the last day of
the nweek (Rule 15, Nweekly Voting).

Since the r15 and r23 have equal Chutzpahs, r33, Chutzpah, dictates that r15
should take precedence, and thus voting closes at the end of nday 10. Sorry
if that causes a problem for anyone, but that's what the rules say. :(

--Wonko

What Do You Call A Boomerang That Doesn't Work?
 A Stick.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 11:08:13 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

YES > Proposal 524/1: If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving is Not For
     > You (Baron von Skippy)

-Thank you, but what do you rate it?-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:06:12 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot
	For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> -Thank you, but what do you rate it?-

Looks to me like he rates it a 7.

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:38:47 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > -Thank you, but what do you rate it?-

Looks to me like he rates it a 7.

-Okay, now you're gonna make me look dumb, but where did it say "7?"-

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:02:35 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

My votes:

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 03:46:12PM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
NO > Proposal 491/1: Keeping the ballot boxes safe for democracy (Bean)
YES > Proposal 504/1: Death, Taxes... (The Administrator)
YES (12) > Proposal 505/4: No, YOU Hide! (Wonko)
YES > Proposal 506/1: Removal of Cruft (Rob)
YES > Proposal 507/0: Roast the PIG (Rob)
YES > Proposal 508/1: Temperature (Rob)
YES > Proposal 509/0: Cinquains Suck (Rob)
YES > Proposal 510/0: Only running is boring IV: Bean f***ing hates the PIG. Die
     		die die, you blasted thing (Bean)
YES > Proposal 511/1: Vote yes on this, it's a no-op (Bean)
NO > Proposal 512/0: Bean is SOOOO f***ing bitter (Bean)
[[ The pig's going to die anyway, and we don't need more attributes. ]]
YES > Proposal 513/0: Grandpa, that's Maggie (Bean)
YES > Proposal 514/0: Stop to think. (Uncle Psychosis)
YES (8) > Proposal 515/2: Sirens and Cheerleaders (Congenital Optimist)
YES > Proposal 516/0: Miscellaneous Fixes (Congenital Optimist)
YES > Proposal 517/2: Notice how they do not so much fly as... plummet (Wonko)
ABSTAIN > Proposal 518/0: Shear a Sheep to Sponge a Square (Wonko)
NO > Proposal 519/0: And yet you are possessed. (Uncle Psychosis)
YES > Proposal 520/1: Exclusive doors. (Uncle Psychosis)
NO > Proposal 521/0: Making crazy sounds. (Uncle Psychosis)
[[ Leave rule 259 alone. ]]

YES > Proposal 522/0: A Santa that will never come. (Uncle Psychosis)
NO > Proposal 523/0: And his merry men, too! (The Voice)
[[ I don't like the potential infinite loop, in case none of its choices
are valid. ]]

ABSTAIN (7) > Proposal 524/1: If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving
              is Not For You (Baron von Skippy)
		
YES > Proposal 525/2: The Curse of the Cinquain (Wonko)
NO > Proposal 527/0: proosal (Wild Card)
YES (10) > Proposal 528/0: These are the Voyages of the DimShip
           Benomicant (Glotmorf)
YES > Proposal 529/0: Hey, Don't Let Me Stop You (Glotmorf)
YES > Proposal 530/0: Rearranging the Football Furniture (Glotmorf)
YES > Proposal 531/2: Back from Exile (Wonko)
YES > Proposal 532/0: Fixing Football (reprise) (Bean)
YES (4) > Proposal 535/0: You Can't Have Footballing co-Color Commentators
 		(Wild Card)

-- 
Rob Speer

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11 
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:08:54 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> NO > Proposal 523/0: And his merry men, too! (The Voice)
> [[ I don't like the potential infinite loop, in case none of its choices
> are valid. ]]

 But this is nomic - we can execuute an infinite loop in finite time!

 WC (infinitely many times winner of dotnomic).

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:28:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot
 For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:

>  > -Thank you, but what do you rate it?-
>
> Looks to me like he rates it a 7.
>
> -Okay, now you're gonna make me look dumb, but where did it say "7?"-

In Rule 438.  If you're commenting on my voting maybe I missed a rating...
Oops?

Bean

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:02:08 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> Proposal 518/0: Shear a Sheep to Sponge a Square (Wonko) - YES
> [But wouldn't you get a wool sponge from a sheep?]

>From a SHEEP, sure, but these are sheep *Gnomes*. Be careful not to get the
two confused - that could cause serious problems if you ever become a
shepherd. (or a Gnomherd, for that matter)

I wonder if Sheep Gnomes should shrink when it rains....

--Wonko

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:24:18 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

>> Proposal 517/2: Notice how they do not so much fly as... plummet (Wonko)
> 
> I'm thtill not clear on how a theep can dethtroy a rock on impact, even given
> a high-orbital intherthion.  Or ith it the theep that'th dethtroyed, rather
> than the impathable object?
> 
> Too ambiguouth.  I mutht dithent.  I vote negative.
> 
>> Proposal 518/0: Shear a Sheep to Sponge a Square (Wonko)
> 
> And thinthe thith ith by nature dependent on the intercontinental ballithtic
> theep propothal, I abthtain on thith.
> 

If a Sheep Gnome lands on a square occuppied by an impassable object, it is
destroyed and the square it landed on, each square consective to that
square, and all objects and entities in those squares gain the attribute
Wet.

Note "The square it landed on". How could that apply to anything save the
object doing the landing?

>> Proposal 520/1: Exclusive doors. (Uncle Psychosis)
> 
> Thorry, thport.  R395 thayth that "declarations of Respect are treated as if
> they were proposed by the Scoring Gremlin."  Unleth the Thcoring Gremlin ith
> to be eligible for the Token, voteth on declarationth of rethpect can't count
> towardth gaining the token.
> 
> Perhapth the reathoning behind the judgment left thomething to be dethired, or
> better thtated, but the judgment ithelf wath fundamentally correct.
> 
> I vote negative.

Ah, but did r395 always say that? I suspect that, if you look into the
records, you'll find that at the time of the CFJ, declarations did not come
from the Scoring Gremlin, but in fact from the player making them. The
judgment was, I'm afraid, somewhat in error. Still, changing it to UNDECIDED
helps nothing.

>> Proposal 522/0: A Santa that will never come. (Uncle Psychosis)
> 
> I find it interethting to thee latter-day commentary on my earlier work.
> Thith reviewer doethn't theem to realithe that r212 wath crafted with a
> thpethicif purpothe in mind: catching up with Wonko.  My ethteemed colleague
> Wonko hath many good ideath for rule changeth, and not everyone thinkth in
> termth of keeping a lid on hith pointh; it ith therefore pothible that e could
> propothe fifty good ideath, and all of them would be adopted becauthe they're
> good ideath, and no one would conthider that that thimply catapulth him
> further into the lead.
> 
> I thtill haven't caught up with him yet.  But I think I'm clothing the gap.  I
> vote negative.

Closing the gap? We'll see...

>> Proposal 523/0: And his merry men, too! (The Voice)
> 
> Ecthplithit highway robbery by a bandit gremlin, ath oppothed to implithit
> highway robbery by tacthation?  What are the thtreeth of Bville coming to,
> friendth?  Are you thafe from crime?  Odd how the poor have jutht ath likely a
> chancth of getting robbed ath the rich do.
> 
> I think I'd much rather thee thith weighted toward the people with more
> pointh...the arrogant and detherving.  I vote negative.
> 

For one who would defend the PIG, this is an odd sentiment... destroying
things is somehow more righteous than merely stealing them? How odd...

>> Proposal 525/2: The Curse of the Cinquain (Wonko)
> 
> Conthidering the art medium in quethtion ith an entirely opthional one, I fail
> to thee why tho many people choothe to revile it rather than ignore it.  Jutht
> becauthe I don't care to uthe live kittenth dipped in paint for thponge art
> doethn't mean the medium ith completely without merit.
> 
> Okay, perhapth that wathn't the betht ecthample.  Thtill, I vote negative.

Ah, but hatred is not the issue, my dear Glotmorf. Perhaps you disdain to
paint with kittens; that does not mean that the medium is without merit, but
perhaps it does mean we ought not to pay you exorbitant fees for doing so.
Cinquains are so easy to make; if you want to catch up with me, my friend,
I'd suggest you close off the various methods of giving people bonus points
for free.

Not that I object to free points.

> 
>> Proposal 531/2: Back from Exile (Wonko)
> 
> Enrique, alwayth the crooning charmer.  Good to thee him featured in thith
> Nomiverthe.  And tho grathiouth of Wonko to thare billing with me.
> 
> A pity thith propothal ith dethtined to become pig chow.  Thtill, I vote
> affirmative.

Not if a rather... unfortunate accident were to befall the esteemed Mr.
PIG... I suspect, given popular sentiment towards the PIG, that there is a
significant chance that e will soon cease to grace us with eir prescence...

--Wonko

"640K ought to be enough for anybody. "
    - Bill Gates (1955-), in 1981

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:29:56 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> {{ __Bowling for Nomics!__

I was thinking the same thing myself, actually...

> -0-
> --)May recieve points from Pinhead.
> -0-

*sigh* Isn't the ruleset long enough without adding extra lines? Of course
they may recieve points from Pinhead, the Pinhead rule says so! What do you
seek to accomplish by giving them permission to do that which they already
may do?

--Wonko

Clones are people two.

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:46:10 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot
	For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Glotmorf,
> 
>>> Proposal 531/2: Back from Exile (Wonko)
>> 
>> Enrique, alwayth the crooning charmer.  Good to thee him featured in thith
>> Nomiverthe.  And tho grathiouth of Wonko to thare billing with me.
>> 
>> A pity thith propothal ith dethtined to become pig chow.  Thtill, I vote
>> affirmative.
> 
> Not if a rather... unfortunate accident were to befall the esteemed Mr.
> PIG... I suspect, given popular sentiment towards the PIG, that there is a
> significant chance that e will soon cease to grace us with eir prescence...
> 
> 

My apologies, I am in error. There is no need for the PIG to be... done away
with. The Pig eats the kth proposal, where k is the nth Gremlin number,
where n is the number of proposals on the ballot. There are 30 proposals.
The Gremlin number is 119. The 30th Gremlin number is therefore 119/(120/30)
rounded up to the nearest integer. That is 119/4, or 29.75, rounded up. 30.
I am afraid that it is not my proposal which is doomed to perish at the
hands, or should I say at the teeth, of the Proposal Ingesting Gremlin, but
rather, it is Wild Card's Co-Commentator proposal that shall feel the PIG's
bite.

However, I suspect that this will not be an issue. The PIG's lifespan, I
fear, is in the process of shrinking drastically.

--Wonko

Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day; set him on fire and he'll be
warm for the rest of his life.

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:55:49 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> First, let's get business out of the way.
> 
> Thing #1 - Glotmorf (legally - in a message dated Mar 30) jumped off the
> grid, which removed eir name from the roster of Turquoise, then jumped
> back on and tackled The Voice.  It's a loophole.... e found it.  There's
> also a bit of a bug in that Glotmorf and I are the same distance from our
> end-zone, so who gets the ball?  I think that it should be random.  But it
> did happen, and hasn't been recognised yet.
> 
> Thing #2 - If I end up with the football I'm running to (10,13).
> Otherwise I'm running to (12,12), then flying Elbonian to (6,6).

Glotmorf's action was legal? How odd... This must be some strange usage of
the word 'legal' of which I have previously been unaware... For certainly,
eir action was forbidden by the ruleset. Nowhere does it say, "players may
take emselves off the Grid at will by saying so". But somewhere does it say,
"players may not change the gamestate". Unless that sentence means something
completely different from what I believe it does, I'm afraid that Glotmorf
did not, in any way, jump off the grid.

Have a nice flight.

--Wonko

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
everything." 
    - Joseph Stalin

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:58:50 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late
  Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/3/02 at 7:46 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Wonko,
>
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>>> Proposal 531/2: Back from Exile (Wonko)
>>> 
>>> Enrique, alwayth the crooning charmer.  Good to thee him featured in
>thith
>>> Nomiverthe.  And tho grathiouth of Wonko to thare billing with me.
>>> 
>>> A pity thith propothal ith dethtined to become pig chow.  Thtill, I=
 vote
>>> affirmative.
>> 
>> Not if a rather... unfortunate accident were to befall the esteemed Mr.
>> PIG... I suspect, given popular sentiment towards the PIG, that there is
>a
>> significant chance that e will soon cease to grace us with eir
>prescence...
>> 
>> 
>
>My apologies, I am in error. There is no need for the PIG to be... done
>away
>with. The Pig eats the kth proposal, where k is the nth Gremlin number,
>where n is the number of proposals on the ballot. There are 30 proposals.
>The Gremlin number is 119. The 30th Gremlin number is therefore
>119/(120/30)
>rounded up to the nearest integer. That is 119/4, or 29.75, rounded up.=
 30.
>I am afraid that it is not my proposal which is doomed to perish at the
>hands, or should I say at the teeth, of the Proposal Ingesting Gremlin,=
 but
>rather, it is Wild Card's Co-Commentator proposal that shall feel the=
 PIG's
>bite.
>
>However, I suspect that this will not be an issue. The PIG's lifespan, I
>fear, is in the process of shrinking drastically.
>
>
>
>
>--Wonko

My ethteemed colleague ith in error again.  The gremlin number ith 113, not=
 119.  That maketh the target propothal #28, or p531.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:15:56 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late
  Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/3/02 at 7:24 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>>> Proposal 517/2: Notice how they do not so much fly as... plummet=
 (Wonko)
>> 
>> I'm thtill not clear on how a theep can dethtroy a rock on impact, even
>given
>> a high-orbital intherthion.  Or ith it the theep that'th dethtroyed,
>rather
>> than the impathable object?
>> 
>> Too ambiguouth.  I mutht dithent.  I vote negative.
>> 
>>> Proposal 518/0: Shear a Sheep to Sponge a Square (Wonko)
>> 
>> And thinthe thith ith by nature dependent on the intercontinental
>ballithtic
>> theep propothal, I abthtain on thith.
>> 
>
>If a Sheep Gnome lands on a square occuppied by an impassable object, it=
 is
>destroyed and the square it landed on, each square consective to that
>square, and all objects and entities in those squares gain the attribute
>Wet.
>
>Note "The square it landed on". How could that apply to anything save the
>object doing the landing?

That ith the thecond inthtanthe of "it" in that thententhe.  The firtht=
 inthtanthe could refer to the theep or to the impathable object it landed=
 on.  Granted, the thecond uthe could modulate the firtht uthe, but a=
 little clarity ith preferred.  Thith ith why I abthtained rather than=
 voted againtht.

>>> Proposal 525/2: The Curse of the Cinquain (Wonko)
>> 
>> Conthidering the art medium in quethtion ith an entirely opthional one,
>I fail
>> to thee why tho many people choothe to revile it rather than ignore it. 
>Jutht
>> becauthe I don't care to uthe live kittenth dipped in paint for thponge
>art
>> doethn't mean the medium ith completely without merit.
>> 
>> Okay, perhapth that wathn't the betht ecthample.  Thtill, I vote
>negative.
>
>Ah, but hatred is not the issue, my dear Glotmorf. Perhaps you disdain to
>paint with kittens; that does not mean that the medium is without merit,
>but
>perhaps it does mean we ought not to pay you exorbitant fees for doing so.
>Cinquains are so easy to make; if you want to catch up with me, my friend,
>I'd suggest you close off the various methods of giving people bonus=
 points
>for free.
>
>Not that I object to free points.

I'd rather ecthploit them if I can.  Uthually I can be more prolific with=
 my prothe, for ecthample, but then uthually I get more thleep than I have=
 rethently.

The Voithe wanth to give me the thuthi...That'll give me plenty of time to=
 compothe...

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:21:20 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot
	For nweek 11
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/3/02 at 7:46 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Wonko,
>> 
>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>> 
>>>>> Proposal 531/2: Back from Exile (Wonko)
>>>> 
>>>> Enrique, alwayth the crooning charmer.  Good to thee him featured in
>> thith
>>>> Nomiverthe.  And tho grathiouth of Wonko to thare billing with me.
>>>> 
>>>> A pity thith propothal ith dethtined to become pig chow.  Thtill, I vote
>>>> affirmative.
>>> 
>>> Not if a rather... unfortunate accident were to befall the esteemed Mr.
>>> PIG... I suspect, given popular sentiment towards the PIG, that there is
>> a
>>> significant chance that e will soon cease to grace us with eir
>> prescence...
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> My apologies, I am in error. There is no need for the PIG to be... done
>> away
>> with. The Pig eats the kth proposal, where k is the nth Gremlin number,
>> where n is the number of proposals on the ballot. There are 30 proposals.
>> The Gremlin number is 119. The 30th Gremlin number is therefore
>> 119/(120/30)
>> rounded up to the nearest integer. That is 119/4, or 29.75, rounded up. 30.
>> I am afraid that it is not my proposal which is doomed to perish at the
>> hands, or should I say at the teeth, of the Proposal Ingesting Gremlin, but
>> rather, it is Wild Card's Co-Commentator proposal that shall feel the PIG's
>> bite.
>> 
>> However, I suspect that this will not be an issue. The PIG's lifespan, I
>> fear, is in the process of shrinking drastically.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> My ethteemed colleague ith in error again.  The gremlin number ith 113, not
> 119.  That maketh the target propothal #28, or p531.
> 
> Glotmorf

I acknowledge my error, however, I fear you are also in error. If the
Gremlin number is 113, then the 30th Gremlin number is 113/4, or 28.25,
rounded up to the nearest integer. I think you'll find that that is equal to
29. I fear that, once again, a Football proposal has been eaten by the PIG.
I also acknowledge an earlier error - Roast The Pig would not stop the PIG
from eating, as it eats upon the the beginning of the ninth day. Proposal
532/0: Fixing Football (reprise) (Bean) has, in fact, already been consumed.
Pity about that; I rather liked that proposal.

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:28:45 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Okay, let's do it for real this time
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> I suppose, given the ruleset, that it was illegal for me to make this
> yesterday. So here it is, for real this time:
> 
> {{
> __Stop the World! I Wanna Get Off!__
> }}
> 
> {{
> __The Goon Gremlin__
> }}
> 
> {{
> __And there was much rejoicing__
> }}
> 
> {{
> __See the world, they said__
> }}
> 
> {{
> __The man behind the curtain__
> }}
> 
> {{
> __Not a Toaster__
> }}

My goodness! Terribly sorry, I was caught up in the moment. Kindly ignore
__The man behind the curtain__, and I will seek to remember bandwidth limits
in the future.

Apologies,
Wonko

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:41:29 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late
  Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 07:55 PM 2002-04-03 -0500, you wrote:
>Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
> > First, let's get business out of the way.
> >
> > Thing #1 - Glotmorf (legally - in a message dated Mar 30) jumped off the
> > grid, which removed eir name from the roster of Turquoise, then jumped
> > back on and tackled The Voice.  It's a loophole.... e found it.  There's
> > also a bit of a bug in that Glotmorf and I are the same distance from our
> > end-zone, so who gets the ball?  I think that it should be random.  But it
> > did happen, and hasn't been recognised yet.
> >
> > Thing #2 - If I end up with the football I'm running to (10,13).
> > Otherwise I'm running to (12,12), then flying Elbonian to (6,6).
>
>Glotmorf's action was legal? How odd... This must be some strange usage of
>the word 'legal' of which I have previously been unaware... For certainly,
>eir action was forbidden by the ruleset. Nowhere does it say, "players may
>take emselves off the Grid at will by saying so". But somewhere does it say,
>"players may not change the gamestate". Unless that sentence means something
>completely different from what I believe it does, I'm afraid that Glotmorf
>did not, in any way, jump off the grid.

Thilly me.  It doethn't exthept in a comment, which hath no bearing on the 
ruleth.

Well, ith a good thing I like flying; maybe I'll fly again next nweek.

Bean

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposal
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:42:03 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

 >
 > {{ __Bowling for Nomics!__

I was thinking the same thing myself, actually...

 > -0-
 > --)May recieve points from Pinhead.
 > -0-

*sigh* Isn't the ruleset long enough without adding extra lines? Of course 
they may recieve points from Pinhead, the Pinhead rule says so! What do you 
seek to accomplish by giving them permission to do that which they already 
may do?

-Wonko, we just dealt with this whole thing with poor Copper and all the 
rest. See, he needs to update that rule, it's in the rules that he does, at 
least until 524 kills that sentence... Let it stay. It may save us a CFJ 
later on.-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:37:52 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:41:29PM -0500, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> >But somewhere does it say,
> >"players may not change the gamestate". Unless that sentence means 
> >something
> >completely different from what I believe it does, I'm afraid that Glotmorf
> >did not, in any way, jump off the grid.
> 
> Thilly me.  It doethn't exthept in a comment, which hath no bearing on the 
> ruleth.
> 
> Well, ith a good thing I like flying; maybe I'll fly again next nweek.

It doesn't say that except in a comment? What's rule 393 then?

"Players may not change the game state. This rule defers to all other
rules."

There's no comment there.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 01:57:47 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late
  Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 01:37 AM 2002-04-04 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:41:29PM -0500, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> > >But somewhere does it say,
> > >"players may not change the gamestate". Unless that sentence means
> > >something
> > >completely different from what I believe it does, I'm afraid that Glotmorf
> > >did not, in any way, jump off the grid.
> >
> > Thilly me.  It doethn't exthept in a comment, which hath no bearing on the
> > ruleth.
> >
> > Well, ith a good thing I like flying; maybe I'll fly again next nweek.
>
>It doesn't say that except in a comment? What's rule 393 then?
>
>"Players may not change the game state. This rule defers to all other
>rules."
>
>There's no comment there.

Oh dear... my fault completely... I'm jutht not articulate enough thethe 
dayth.  I don't know what ith hapenning to me.  I wath referring to the 
lack of ability to remove onethelf from The Grid.  It only thayth one can 
do that in a comment in rule 301, paragraph 8.

Terribly thorry.  I'll try to be leth ambiguouth in the future.

Bean

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 07:19:31 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Late Late Late Ballot For nweek 11
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> >Proposal 519/0: And yet you are possessed. (Uncle Psychosis)
> 
> Your fallathy ith thowing.  Thith propothal ith inherently illegal if
> it doethn't get more than 2/3 of the voteth, tho even if it patheth,
> if it doethn't path by enough, it ith inherently illegal, and therefore
> mutht never have ecthithted.
> 
> Thith I mutht thee.  I vote negative.
>
You're wrong. See CFJ 254 for why.

>Proposal 520/1: Exclusive doors. (Uncle Psychosis)

> Thorry, thport.  R395 thayth that "declarations of
> Respect are treated as if they were proposed by the
> Scoring Gremlin."  Unleth the Thcoring Gremlin ith
> to be eligible for the Token, voteth on declarationth
> of rethpect can't count towardth gaining the token.
>
> Perhapth the reathoning behind the judgment left
> thomething to be dethired, or better thtated, but the
> judgment ithelf wath fundamentally correct.
>
> I vote negative.
>
Also wrong. As Wonko points out, that text was only added by P448/2. Since the CFJ in question is CFJ 447, that text was not there when the CFJ was submitted, rendering the judgment fundamentally wrong.

>Proposal 522/0: A Santa that will never come. (Uncle Psychosis)

> I find it interethting to thee latter-day commentary on my 
> earlier work.  Thith reviewer doethn't theem to realithe that
> r212 wath crafted with a thpethicif purpothe in mind: catching
> up with Wonko.  My ethteemed colleague Wonko hath many
> good ideath for rule changeth, and not everyone thinkth in
> termth of keeping a lid on hith pointh; it ith therefore pothible
> that e could propothe fifty good ideath, and all of them would
> be adopted becauthe they're good ideath, and no one would
> conthider that that thimply catapulth him further into the lead.
>
> I thtill haven't caught up with him yet.  But I think I'm clothing
> the gap.  I vote negative.
>
"No, *you* don't get it: I don't care". Points aren't interesting; who cares if Wonko gets them? I'm aware that a proosal number limit also limits the number of points you can get, but I'd rather see his 50 interesting proosals, or be able to proose repealing each rule that's in P521 separately, than try to bring myself to care about score.

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:05:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Lepage <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: Bowling
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

 >
 > {{ __Bowling for Nomics!__

I was thinking the same thing myself, actually...

 > -0-
 > --)May recieve points from Pinhead.
 > -0-

*sigh* Isn't the ruleset long enough without adding
extra lines? Of course they may recieve points from
Pinhead, the Pinhead rule says so! What do you seek to
accomplish by giving them permission to do that which
they already may do?

-Wonko, we just dealt with this whole thing with poor
Copper and all the rest. See, he needs to update that
rule, it's in the rules that he does, at least until
524 kills that sentence... Let it stay. It may save us
a CFJ 
later on.-

My dear Baron, I suggest that you examine the rules
more thoroughly. The rule in question states that any
rule creating a Gremlin that affects players must
alter the Idol rule. This is not what the esteemed
Voice has done; rather, it is his Proposal that seeks
to amend the Idol. Unfortunately, given the deplorable
way the Idol rule is currently worded, (unless 524
has... dealt with that bit) this poor Bowling Gremlin
will, in fact, be illegal, as the *rule* which creates
it must amend the Idol, not the *proposal*. 

Just as a side note, that's why poor Goldie, the
Golden-Armed Gremlin, also never happened, as its
proposal amended, not its rule.

--Wonko
hates the Idol

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:50:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: I'm a-coming!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Even now, I'm processing the ballot.

If you peek at the Web page, you'll see the changed rules, but I probably
won't be able to send out the official notifications on anything 'til
tonight.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:51:58 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Offithial acthionth
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> {{
> __Mommy, I want off!__
> 
> Add the following text to the end of paragraph 8 (the one about entering
> the grid):
> "A Player may leave the Grid by announcing on a public Forum eir intention
> to do so."
> }}

Say, does it say anywhere that a player going off the Grid loses whatever
eir carrying? Otherwise I see a sort of:

I jump to Limbo. 
I come down on the Big Stick.
I take the Big Stick.
I jump to Limbo. 
I come down next to Glotmorf.
I Whack Glotmorf with the Big Stick.
I jump to Limbo. 
I come down on the Big Stick.
I take the Big Stick.
I jump to Limbo. 
I come down next to The Voice.
I Whack the Voice with the Stick.
I jump up to Limbo.
I come down on the Big Stick.
etc.

thing happening.

Or even worse:

Wonko passes the Football to the Voice.
The Voice moves to Limbo.
The Voice puts emself on the Grid at (1,20).
The Voice joins Team Crimson.
All players on Team Crimson gain 20 points.
Wonko moves to Limbo.
Wonko puts emself on the Grid on top of the Football.
Wonko takes the Football, moves to Limbo, comes down on Crimson's endzone,
and joins Team Crimson.
All Crimsonites gain 20 points.
etc.

I could write a program in thirty seconds that would mass-produce the
neccessary lines of text, then score a Goal 400 times in quick succession,
first giving me a win, then giving Voice and I both 7 more wins.

Whee!

--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:18:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Offithial acthionth
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
> > {{
> > __Mommy, I want off!__
> >
> > Add the following text to the end of paragraph 8 (the one about entering
> > the grid):
> > "A Player may leave the Grid by announcing on a public Forum eir intention
> > to do so."
> > }}
>
> Say, does it say anywhere that a player going off the Grid loses whatever
> eir carrying? Otherwise I see a sort of:
>
> I jump to Limbo.
> I come down on the Big Stick.
> I take the Big Stick.
> I jump to Limbo.
> I come down next to Glotmorf.
> I Whack Glotmorf with the Big Stick.
> I jump to Limbo.
> I come down on the Big Stick.
> I take the Big Stick.
> I jump to Limbo.
> I come down next to The Voice.
> I Whack the Voice with the Stick.
> I jump up to Limbo.
> I come down on the Big Stick.
> etc.
>
> thing happening.

Thith ith a valid critithithm.  I thould plathe a rethtricthion of thome
thort on that....

> Or even worse:
>
> Wonko passes the Football to the Voice.
> The Voice moves to Limbo.
> The Voice puts emself on the Grid at (1,20).
> The Voice joins Team Crimson.
> All players on Team Crimson gain 20 points.
> Wonko moves to Limbo.
> Wonko puts emself on the Grid on top of the Football.
> Wonko takes the Football, moves to Limbo, comes down on Crimson's endzone,
> and joins Team Crimson.
> All Crimsonites gain 20 points.
> etc.
>
> I could write a program in thirty seconds that would mass-produce the
> neccessary lines of text, then score a Goal 400 times in quick succession,
> first giving me a win, then giving Voice and I both 7 more wins.

Thith ith not a valid critithithm.  My other propothal taketh care of
tyith by making thure you can't join a team onthe you leave the Grid.

> Whee!

Oh, I agree.

Bean

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:40:49 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Offithial acthionth
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> 
> Thith ith not a valid critithithm.  My other propothal taketh care of
> tyith by making thure you can't join a team onthe you leave the Grid.
> 

Ah, you're right. I missed that. My most humble apologies.

--Wonko

A thief broke into the local police station and stole all the lavatory
equipment.  A spokesperson was quoted as saying,  "We have absolutely
nothing to go on."

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Offithial acthionth
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:13:53 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I could write a program in thirty seconds that would mass-produce the
neccessary lines of text, then score a Goal 400 times in quick succession,
first giving me a win, then giving Voice and I both 7 more wins.

Whee!

-Well, now seems as good a time as any... I join Team Crimson.-

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Offithial acthionth
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:14:01 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I could write a program in thirty seconds that would mass-produce the
neccessary lines of text, then score a Goal 400 times in quick succession,
first giving me a win, then giving Voice and I both 7 more wins.

Whee!

-Well, now seems as good a time as any... I join Team Crimson.-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:45:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: I'm still a-coming!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I've almost gotten my personal life back in order. I appreciate everyone's
patience.

This is the short version of the voting results; other end-of-week stuff
is forthcoming:

Passed: 491, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 510, 511, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516,
517, 518, 520, 523, 524, 528, 529, 530, 531, 532, 535.

And Bandwidth Rationing is still in effect.

Hopefully, everything else can wait just a couple more hours.

thanks!
...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 22:57:32 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Shattered illusions
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Um... I hate to burst people's bubbles, but...

"Players playing Football may only use Elbonian Airways to fly at a square
within 7 units of them."

Seems to me that (12,12) to (6,6) is a little bit farther than 7, isn't it,
Bean?

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 01:52:47 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Shattered illusions
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:57 PM 2002-04-05 -0500, you wrote:
>Um... I hate to burst people's bubbles, but...
>
>"Players playing Football may only use Elbonian Airways to fly at a square
>within 7 units of them."
>
>Seems to me that (12,12) to (6,6) is a little bit farther than 7, isn't it,
>Bean?

Well phew!  I'm glad I didn't thee that!  I gueth I *don't* fly Elbonian 
after all!  Well, in that cathe I'm jutht going to have to think of a good 
way to get my handth on the football....

Bean

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:08:29 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late nweek 11 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/6/02 at 12:03 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>The Yeti is thrown, Elbonia style, at (10,10). E "lands" at (10,10), which
>is already occupied by a Big Rock. Since the rules don't allow those two
>to overlap, I rule that e bounces back to Limbo.

Sadly, I can't post this to the business forum without sushifying, but at=
 least I can discuss it here..."thrown, Elbonia style", defined in r351,=
 includes resolution of what happens if the thrown thing lands on an=
 impassable object such as a Big Rock: it bounces, and is Elbonia-thrown at=
 the square it just attempted to fall on -- which pretty much guarantees it=
 won't attempt to fall on it again.

So the Yeti is probably somewhere on the Grid.  Or at least should be.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:03:31 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late nweek 11
 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> Sadly, I can't post this to the business forum without sushifying, but
> at least I can discuss it here..."thrown, Elbonia style", defined in
> r351, includes resolution of what happens if the thrown thing lands on
> an impassable object such as a Big Rock: it bounces, and is
> Elbonia-thrown at the square it just attempted to fall on -- which
> pretty much guarantees it won't attempt to fall on it again.

Damn damn damn.

I overlooked that one, though I'll admit I was quite happy to ponder the
prospect that I wouldn't have to deal with The Yeti.

I'll sort it out after I sleep.

...dave

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:49:43 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: grid?
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 OK, according to the grid I am both in Limbo and on
the grid... also, I deliberately jumped at the blip
from someone or other's radar... so should have either
lost or gained some points...

Naath
stupid or not paying attention??

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 09:25:01 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Late Late Late nweek
	11 results
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/6/02 at 12:03 AM David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> The Yeti is thrown, Elbonia style, at (10,10). E "lands" at (10,10), which
>> is already occupied by a Big Rock. Since the rules don't allow those two
>> to overlap, I rule that e bounces back to Limbo.
> 
> Sadly, I can't post this to the business forum without sushifying, but at
> least I can discuss it here..."thrown, Elbonia style", defined in r351,
> includes resolution of what happens if the thrown thing lands on an impassable
> object such as a Big Rock: it bounces, and is Elbonia-thrown at the square it
> just attempted to fall on -- which pretty much guarantees it won't attempt to
> fall on it again.
> 
> So the Yeti is probably somewhere on the Grid.  Or at least should be.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

The Elbonian style specifies what happens if a *player* lands on an
impassable object. I assume, however, that the Yeti is not a player (or at
least, I certainly hope it isn't).

So the Elbonian rule does not actually cover this.

On the other hand, "Elbonia Style" could be interpreted to mean "as if it
were a player flying Elbonian" instead of "as if it were flying Elbonian",
in which case it bounces, but the Yeti also has negative points now. (Or
should I say, the Yeti owes the world some points)

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:58:57 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

>Okay, I'm probably not exactly impartial here, but I'll try to be.CFJ 526/0
>CFJ by The Voice
>Assigned Judge: Baron von Skippy

>Statement: Rules 500 and 501 do not exist.

>Analysis: Neither rule amends rule 293 to define how Guido and Copper, both of
whom arguably affect players directly, would have an effect on a player who
holds the Immunity Idol, as is required by rule 293:

>"Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also
amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the
Idol." 
>Well, I've looked into it quite extensively... I judge FALSE.Analysis: Proposal
524/1 read, and I quote: "Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293." Now, that
would, in fact, be the paragraph in question. However, the Administrator
appears to have not altered the rule, despite the amendment to proposal 524
which added that section not being the ignored alteration. This creates a
bit of a problem, obviously, but the proposal which passed should have that
text in it.

It doesn't matter if the rules have changed since then; at the time of the
passing of rules 500 and 501, 293 made them illegal. The action of creating
them violated a rule; thus it was illegal. Saying, "Oh, well, now it's
legal, so we'll pretend it was legal then, too" is an illegal alteration of
the past.

>As such, I Call For Judgement. Statement: The Administrator did not alter the
ruleset in accordance with proposal 524/1, which read, among other things,
"Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293."

This will do no good. All you'll establish is that the Admin didn't do it.
That's fairly obvious. A better idea might be something along the lines of
"Rule 293 no longer contains the sentence..." because that would actually do
something.

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 11:00:30 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Gremlins
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Glotmorf said:

>My ruling: FALSE

>The rules cited by Wonko in CFJ533 do in fact exist, since they were created by
proposals that were voted in by the players. However, since those rules have
no declared chutzpah, and are in direct conflict with a rule that has a
chutzpah of 2, they have no effect. Therefore, the gremlins they claim exist
do not actually exist. Though, since that is not the subject of Wonko's
statement, that will ether require an Administrator ruling or a new CFJ.
>
>This could have been prevented (and can now be fixed) by a self-repealing
element of the rules in question that states that the Immunity Idol rule
contains such-and-such a provision.

So then the Gremlins exist now, right, because the conflicting sentence of
293 was erased by the quotation proposal?

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Time
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 10:59:15 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Say, didn't daylight savings time hit at midnight last night?

No, daylight savings time hit at 2:00 am last night, technically.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

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Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 11:01:21 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Time
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> 
> 
>> Say, didn't daylight savings time hit at midnight last night?
> 
> 
> No, daylight savings time hit at 2:00 am last night, technically.
> 

Oh. Okay. My mistake.

--Wonko

Never agree to plastic surgery if the doctor's office is full of portraits
by Picasso.

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 12:25:11 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Gremlins
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/7/02 at 11:00 AM Wonko wrote:

>Glotmorf said:
>
>>My ruling: FALSE
>
>>The rules cited by Wonko in CFJ533 do in fact exist, since they were
>created by
>proposals that were voted in by the players. However, since those rules
>have
>no declared chutzpah, and are in direct conflict with a rule that has a
>chutzpah of 2, they have no effect. Therefore, the gremlins they claim
>exist
>do not actually exist. Though, since that is not the subject of Wonko's
>statement, that will ether require an Administrator ruling or a new CFJ.
>>
>>This could have been prevented (and can now be fixed) by a self-repealing
>element of the rules in question that states that the Immunity Idol rule
>contains such-and-such a provision.
>
>
>So then the Gremlins exist now, right, because the conflicting sentence of
>293 was erased by the quotation proposal?
>
>
>--Wonko

If that line was erased from r293, then yes, the gremlins would exist,=
 since the now-not-conflicting rules say they do.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 12:27:09 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/7/02 at 12:58 AM Wonko wrote:

>It doesn't matter if the rules have changed since then; at the time of the
>passing of rules 500 and 501, 293 made them illegal. The action of=
 creating
>them violated a rule; thus it was illegal. Saying, "Oh, well, now it's
>legal, so we'll pretend it was legal then, too" is an illegal alteration=
 of
>the past.

Is there an actual rule that says it's illegal to create rules that=
 conflict with other rules?  I didn't think there was; that's why my=
 judgment was what it was.  If the players insist on creating rules that=
 conflict with other rules, it's just handled by conflict resolution=
 mechanisms.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 13:52:02 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Time
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Nope, DST kickth in at exthactly 0200.  Therefore, it went from 0159 to 0300.

Bean

At 10:56 AM 2002-04-07 -0400, you wrote:
>Say, didn't daylight savings time hit at midnight last night?
>
>And doesn't that therefore mean that it went straight from 23:59:59 to
>01:00:00, meaning the nday never changed last night?
>
>
>
>--Wonko
>
>"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
>- Paul Erdos

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 18:37:06 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/7/02 at 12:58 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> It doesn't matter if the rules have changed since then; at the time of the
>> passing of rules 500 and 501, 293 made them illegal. The action of creating
>> them violated a rule; thus it was illegal. Saying, "Oh, well, now it's
>> legal, so we'll pretend it was legal then, too" is an illegal alteration of
>> the past.
> 
> Is there an actual rule that says it's illegal to create rules that conflict
> with other rules?  I didn't think there was; that's why my judgment was what
> it was.  If the players insist on creating rules that conflict with other
> rules, it's just handled by conflict resolution mechanisms.
> 
> Glotmorf

The issue is not creating a rule that's in conflict with another rule. It's
creating a rule which is forbidden by another rule. It's perfectly okay to
create a rule that says "A is true" and another that says "A is false", but
it's not legal to make a rule that says "No rule may say that A is false"
and another that says "A is false".

--Wonko

"Attention to health is lifes greatest hindrance. "
    - Plato

"Plato was a bore. "
    - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal. "
    - Leo Tolstoy

"I'm not going to get into the ring with Tolstoy. "
    - Ernest Hemingway

"Hemingway was a jerk. "
    - Harold Robbins

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 20:08:11 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan David Amery,

> {{
> __Societies__
> 
> Entities may be members of societies.
> 
> A society may either be created by the actions of rules, or
> proposals, or as a result of explicit player action in accordance with
> the rules. [[This rule defines no way for player action to do so]]
>
> A proposing entity is an entity with the power to make proposals
> within the game.

Does this paragraph really belong in this rule? Seems like it might be
better suited to some general definitions rule... Also, how broad is 'the
power to make proposals'? The admin must be one... What about Enrique?
Respect declarations are proposals that come from it... is it therefore a
proposing entity?

> The internal structure of a society is freeform, restricted only be
> the rules of the game.  However should a society have a publically
> visible set of rules then the following restriction and allowences
> apply to them:

Restricted only *by* the rules, perhaps?
 
> a) So long as at least three proposing entities are members then the
> publicly visible rules of the society are binding upon its membership.

So if only two join, then either can completely redefine the society?
 
> b) The publically visible rules cannot prevent any member of the
> society from leaving the society.  If no method of leaving the society
> is defined in the publically visible rules, or if there are no such
> rules, then a member may leave the society by announcing that they are
> doing so on a public forum.
> 
> Any society with no members is disbanded.  If it was rule mandated
> then the rule that mandated it is repealed.
> }}

Can societies alter the main gamestate? For example, could a person gain
points in the overall B Nomic game as a result of a society rule? And if so,
what stops one from creating a new society in which the members can change
the rules governing that society, then, when you're the only member still,
changing the rules to make you win the outer game, or something like that?

--Wonko

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
everything." 
    - Joseph Stalin

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 22:37:48 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I the html it uses inside the email, for the skippy kick hard inside the 
donkey.

                             Glotmorf

-*long string of swearing* I'm really sorry about that. I switched to 
Internet Explorer, and it did that without checking with me or anything. I 
recall that not having any color or fancy crap when I sent it... Can someone 
tell me how to turn off the damnable HTML? Please don't kick me.-

                                                  -BvS-

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Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Time
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 22:43:17 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Say, didn't daylight savings time hit at midnight last night?

And doesn't that therefore mean that it went straight from 23:59:59 to
01:00:00, meaning the nday never changed last night?

-No, because DST changes at 2 AM. It went from 1:59:59 to 3:00:00.-

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

The letters in
"To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in the mind to 
suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
can be rearranged to spell
"In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet, 
queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten."

I don't think I want to play whoever came up with this in Scrabble...

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 22:55:30 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > On 4/7/02 at 12:58 AM Wonko wrote:
 >
 >> It doesn't matter if the rules have changed since then; at the time of 
the
 >> passing of rules 500 and 501, 293 made them illegal. The action of 
creating
 >> them violated a rule; thus it was illegal. Saying, "Oh, well, now it's
 >> legal, so we'll pretend it was legal then, too" is an illegal alteration 
of
 >> the past.
 >
 > Is there an actual rule that says it's illegal to create rules that 
conflict
 > with other rules?  I didn't think there was; that's why my judgment was 
what
 > it was.  If the players insist on creating rules that conflict with other
 > rules, it's just handled by conflict resolution mechanisms.
 >
 > Glotmorf

The issue is not creating a rule that's in conflict with another rule. It's
creating a rule which is forbidden by another rule. It's perfectly okay to
create a rule that says "A is true" and another that says "A is false", but
it's not legal to make a rule that says "No rule may say that A is false"
and another that says "A is false".

-At the time of 500 and 501's passing, they were illegal. At the time of The 
Voice's CFJ, they were illegal. At the time of my judgement, 501 was legal. 
Nobody said I had to judge based on what things looked like an nweek ago. 
We've had CFJs that were defunct by eir being judged before. What's the 
problem here?-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 01:17:02 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Omnibus Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:43:41AM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
> 9. Add "Concrete" to the List of Grid Substances. Assign the Substance
> "Concrete" to all Elbonian Airways locations, and to one square adjacent
> to each Elbonian Airways location, chosen randomly. [[ runways ]]

You don't need runways to fly Elbonian. In fact, to fit with the theme,
the Elbonian Airways squares should probably be Mud.

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 01:20:43 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:59:33PM -0500, Glotmorf wrote:

> I the html it uses inside the email, for the skippy kick hard inside
> the donkey.

This is the kind of thing which makes me glad the Sushi is still around.
-- 
Rob Speer

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal 
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 07:31:54 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Quoth Jonathan David Amery,
> 
> > {{
> > __Societies__
> > 
> > Entities may be members of societies.
> > 
> > A society may either be created by the actions of rules, or
> > proposals, or as a result of explicit player action in accordance with
> > the rules. [[This rule defines no way for player action to do so]]
> >
> > A proposing entity is an entity with the power to make proposals
> > within the game.
> 
> Does this paragraph really belong in this rule? Seems like it might be
> better suited to some general definitions rule...

 Possibly.

> Also, how broad is 'the
> power to make proposals'? The admin must be one... What about Enrique?
> Respect declarations are proposals that come from it... is it therefore a
> proposing entity?

 That's an interesting question.

> > The internal structure of a society is freeform, restricted only be
> > the rules of the game.  However should a society have a publically
> > visible set of rules then the following restriction and allowences
> > apply to them:
> Restricted only *by* the rules, perhaps?

 <grins>

> > a) So long as at least three proposing entities are members then the
> > publicly visible rules of the society are binding upon its membership.
> So if only two join, then either can completely redefine the society?

 Hmm...

> > b) The publically visible rules cannot prevent any member of the
> > society from leaving the society.  If no method of leaving the society
> > is defined in the publically visible rules, or if there are no such
> > rules, then a member may leave the society by announcing that they are
> > doing so on a public forum.
> > 
> > Any society with no members is disbanded.  If it was rule mandated
> > then the rule that mandated it is repealed.
> > }}
> Can societies alter the main gamestate? For example, could a person gain
> points in the overall B Nomic game as a result of a society rule? And if so,
> what stops one from creating a new society in which the members can change
> the rules governing that society, then, when you're the only member still,
> changing the rules to make you win the outer game, or something like that?

 Hmm, the society shouldn't be able to do things themselves outside
the rules (like create extra points in a new and unusual way).

 I'll have a shot at revising this this evening...

 WC.

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 10:25:48 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/7/02 at 6:37 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> Is there an actual rule that says it's illegal to create rules that
>conflict
>> with other rules?  I didn't think there was; that's why my judgment was
>what
>> it was.  If the players insist on creating rules that conflict with=
 other
>> rules, it's just handled by conflict resolution mechanisms.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>
>The issue is not creating a rule that's in conflict with another rule.=
 It's
>creating a rule which is forbidden by another rule. It's perfectly okay to
>create a rule that says "A is true" and another that says "A is false",=
 but
>it's not legal to make a rule that says "No rule may say that A is false"
>and another that says "A is false".
>
>
>--Wonko

I disagree.  The nature of the existence of rules is defined rather clearly=
 in the mechanisms for proposing and implementing rules.  If a rule says,=
 "No rule may say 'blah'", it is not saying a rule cannot exist that says=
 'blah'; it is merely saying that it would be in conflict with such a rule,=
 and that therefore, if it takes precedence, the rule in question would=
 have no effect and would thus, for all practical purposes, not say 'blah'.

I don't think I would support a rule that could cause other rules to cease=
 to exist after they've been enacted independent of the proposal process.=
  I'm content with the current mechanisms for establishing precedence.  If=
 a rule is purely a no-op because of another rule, someone can always=
 propose the removal of more cruft. (What IS "cruft," anyway?)

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:33:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
> I don't think I would support a rule that could cause other rules to
> cease to exist after they've been enacted independent of the proposal
> process.

Again, ith not a matter of whether we like it or thupport it. That'th what
the rule thayth, and tho that'th the rule.  If you don't like it, make a
propothal to fixth it.

I have to agree with Wonko on thith one...

Bean

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (abridged Sunday night edition)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:26:57 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

* Naath has ruled on CFJ 526. To bring the game in accordance with that
judgement, Rules 500 and 501 are repealed.
-But they're not, because Naath is on the LoMJ and you gave CFJ526 to me.-

* Okay, I blew it on Proposal 524... Though I'm required to recognize the
CFJ apparently contained in a recent email, I'm unable to do so because
the email containing the CFJ is in an especially illegible dialect of
HTML. Please resubmit that judgement, CFJ request, and whatever else it is
in plain text.
-Gah. I don't have it... have to fudge it, I guess. I guess if you're fixing 
R524, I don't have a CFJ to issue. I'll send the rest of that rule in 
tonight when I get home.-

* Glotmorf, even through the Sushi, Kicks Baron von Skippy in the Ass.
"Most impressive..." The latter loses five points to the former. And yes,
even though I'm not required to recognize it, I do so because that email
was really really bad.
-*sulkily* 's not my fault if the stupid thing does it without asking... 
Anyway, I found the way to turn the little bugger off. Doesn't get me out of 
the Kick, though, does it?-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:06:42 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526 and a spinoff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:25:48AM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> (What IS "cruft," anyway?)

Obsolete ugly stuff. See
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/cruft.html
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:19:03 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> [[This looks a little different, but I have to take recent events into
> account.]]
> 
> CFJ 526/0
> CFJ by The Voice
> Assigned Judge: Baron von Skippy
> 
> Statement: Rules 500 and 501 do not exist.
> 
> Analysis: Neither rule amends rule 293 to define how Guido and Copper, both
> of whom arguably affect players directly, would have an effect on a player
> who holds the Immunity Idol, as is required by rule 293:
> 
> "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also
> amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the
> Idol."
> 
> I judge FALSE.
> 
> Analysis: That segment of R293/4 no longer exists, as per proposal 524/1, so
> according to the current ruleset, 500 and 501 are compliant with R293/4.
> 
> [[It seems there should be more, but that's about it. The original version
> had more, but that was mostly me justifying my CFJ of the Administrator.]]

But they weren't compliant as of the time they were "created". Since actions
can only happen in accordance with the rules, the two rules never were
actually created, it being illegal. The fact that now their creation would
be legal has nothing to do with it; it was illegal when it attempted to
happen, so it never happened. Those rules aren't there.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal 
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:54:34 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > Quoth Jonathan David Amery,
>  I'll have a shot at revising this this evening...

 No I won't.

 (only just got in from getting back from work - *sigh*)

 If I get a seat on the train in tomorrow I'll have a go then....

 *sighs*.

 WC.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ526
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:34:14 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

But they weren't compliant as of the time they were "created". Since actions
can only happen in accordance with the rules, the two rules never were
actually created, it being illegal. The fact that now their creation would
be legal has nothing to do with it; it was illegal when it attempted to
happen, so it never happened. Those rules aren't there.

-Well, then. Prop524 altered 293 and recreated 501, if 501 was already gone, 
then. In any case, you may be right, but the ruling's out. *shrug* Maybe 
they shouldn't have the force of law?-

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 23:43:08 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Monday evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 4:29 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>To the best of my knowledge, that takes care of all open CFJs except for
>533, and it could be argued that 533 is moot at this point. (I'm assuming
>Glotmorf is just waiting for the opportunity to dump the Sushi to rule on
>this.)

Actually, I did rule on it.  It was a two-line response to the assignment=
 of the CFJ, the first line of which was "Read this please:" (the sushified=
 version of "Please read this:") and the second line of which was this URL:

http://www.angelfire.com/games4/morfologie/ruling.html

The ruling is at the URL.  Okay, so the text itself wasn't sent to the=
 public forum, but what I thought was a clear and explicit reference to the=
 text was.

If need be I can re-post it to the public forum.  Time I gave the sushi=
 away anyway.  And I think Ms. Optimist is elected. (I wonder how Babelfish=
 will translate "congenital"...)

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 05:16:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #5
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> "If a player's Entropy exceeds Maximum Entropy / # of players / 2, all
> eir messages posted to the public forum must consist of words of two or
> fewer syllables.  If a player's Entropy exceeds Maximum Entropy / # of
> players / 3, all eir messages posted to the public forum must consist of
> words of one syllable.  Comprehensible abbreviations and acronyms are
> acceptable in order to comply with this."

You may want to parenthesize the equation, so it's clear what you mean.

There are two ways to read that, assuming the current number of 13
players:

500 / 13 / 3 -- simply taking each in left-to-right order, which gives a
total of 12.82. Which puts just about everyone in the "one syllable"
category.

or

500 / (13/3) = 115.something

I doubt the former is what you want, but that's what the rule currently
says.

Also: Yes, please post your CFJ ruling to a public forum. I don't think
Web sites count as public, per the rules, and that's one precedent I don't
really want to set.

(This will be recognized sometime tomorrow afternoon, by the way.)

...dave

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:11:33 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposals
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> As I don't have much to propose this nweek, here goes.
> 
> {{__Repeal Rule 207__
> 
> Rule 2-0-7
> Does nothing in fact and so
> we shall repeal it.
> 
> }}

207 does stuff; we just never have had occasion to use it.

> {{__Repeal Rule 210__
> 
> Position is dumb.
> No one ever uses it.
> Two-Ten is repealed.
> 
> }}

I suppose you're right. But with the new DimShip stuff, we may shortly need
this...

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:12:40 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: This one should work.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> {{ __Immunity Idol, v2.5__
> 
> Amend rule 293 by adding the following -0- delimited text following the
> list.
> 
> -0-
> Any rule which specifies the existance of a Gremlin must also state how that
> Gremlin affects the player who holds the Immunity Idol.
> -0-
> 
> 
> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> *Ignore this signature if :
> 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> 2) it seems outdated
> 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> Thank you, and have a nice day.*
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> 

This would invalidate every current gremlin rule, as none of them say
anything about the player holding the Idol.

Also, Captain Admin's going to have to rectify this to remove the signature.

--Wonko

Clones are people two.

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:14:26 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Bruce!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> Oh yeah, this was what I was going to propose.
> 
> {{__Proosal?__
> 
> Create a new rule, entitled __The Flaming Gremlin__ with the following BRUCE
> delimited text:
> 
> BRUCE
> There exists a Gremlin known as The Flaming Gremlin, also known as Bruce.
> At the beginning of each nweek, after the Immunity Idol is awarded, Bruce
> gives a random player the attribute "Burnt".  When a player is Burnt, e may
> make one fewer proposal then e would normally be able to.  No two players
> may be Burnt at the same time.  When a second player becomes Burnt, the
> first player loses the attribute "Burnt".  If a player who is Burnt makes no
> proposals before a Ballot is issued, Bruce goes into Hiding until the next
> Ballot is issued. [[The player would then remain Burnt for an extra nweek.]]
> 
> The player who holds the Immunity Idol is not considered to be a player for
> the purposes of Bruce choosing a random player to become Burnt.
> 
> This rule takes precedence over rule 212. [[Bandwidth Rationing]]
> 
> }}

It doesn't actually need to take precedence over rule 212, does it? 212 says
noboday can make more than 5; saying they can't make more than 4 doesn't
contradict that.

Besides that, I'd kinda like to see something that punishes people for
doing/being something wrong, not just a random punishment engine. That's
what the PIG was, and that was why it was cooked.

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposals
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:17:13 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: <[email-masked]>
>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposals
>Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:11:33 -0400
>
>Quoth Tyler Crosby,
>
> >
> > As I don't have much to propose this nweek, here goes.
> >
> > {{__Repeal Rule 207__
> >
> > Rule 2-0-7
> > Does nothing in fact and so
> > we shall repeal it.
> >
> > }}
>
>207 does stuff; we just never have had occasion to use it.

But we've done the same thing other ways, it's redundant to define it as 
such.

>
> > {{__Repeal Rule 210__
> >
> > Position is dumb.
> > No one ever uses it.
> > Two-Ten is repealed.
> >
> > }}
>
>I suppose you're right. But with the new DimShip stuff, we may shortly need
>this...

I think Mr. Morf could figure that out himself, if he hasn't already.

>
>--Wonko

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:23:02 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposals
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:11:33PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> I suppose you're right. But with the new DimShip stuff, we may shortly need
> this...

We'll need an arbitrary vector that represents values which are already
in the gamestate, and which already have rules like Distance that deal
with them better?

Why?

-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Bruce!
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:22:43 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>It doesn't actually need to take precedence over rule 212, does it? 212 
>says
>noboday can make more than 5; saying they can't make more than 4 doesn't
>contradict that.

Well, I'm just being thorough.

>Besides that, I'd kinda like to see something that punishes people for
>doing/being something wrong, not just a random punishment engine. That's
>what the PIG was, and that was why it was cooked.

But this one doesn't remove proposals from the ballot, it just limits the 
number that got there in the first place.  Sometimes, I would welcome the 
chance to possibly catch up to you or Glotmorf.  I probably just lost votes 
from you too, but this is really something that levels the playing field a 
bit, which is really in everyone's best interests.  If you have any better 
applications, I would welcome them.

>--Wonko

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Bruce!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Tyler Crosby wrote:
> Sometimes, I would welcome the chance to possibly catch up to you or
> Glotmorf.

Thpeaking of catching up.... has the Thcoring Gremlin been doing hith
thing?

Bean

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:27:19 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposals
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 4:47 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>As I don't have much to propose this nweek, here goes.
>
>{{__Repeal Rule 207__
>
>Rule 2-0-7
>Does nothing in fact and so
>we shall repeal it.
>
>}}

It only does nothing because we haven't had a vacation yet.  Then again, I=
 suppose if we ever wanted a vacation, we could make a rule...

>
>{{__Repeal Rule 210__
>
>Position is dumb.
>No one ever uses it.
>Two-Ten is repealed.
>
>}}

What, now that we've defined realms? :)  Though perhaps we can just figure=
 out where everyone is...

>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

Do we want some way of keeping track which rules actually get used in the=
 course of a given nweek?  How does one judge passive rules that say=
 certain things can't be done and those things, like, aren't done?

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #5 
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:45:51 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Yeah, you're right...I was aiming for 2/3 full, actually.  And that's=
>  probably a little tight, even so...so kindly replace "Maximum Entropy / #=
>  of players / 2" with "((Maximum Entropy) / (# of players)) / 2", and=
>  replace "Maximum Entropy / # of
> players / 3" with "(((Maximum Entropy) / (# of players)) / 4) * 3".
> 

 Can I suggest (Maximum Entropy) / (2 * # of players)
 and       (3 * Maximum Entropy) / (4 * # of players)  ?

 WC.

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:57:09 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Bruce!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
>> Besides that, I'd kinda like to see something that punishes people for
>> doing/being something wrong, not just a random punishment engine. That's
>> what the PIG was, and that was why it was cooked.
> 
> But this one doesn't remove proposals from the ballot, it just limits the
> number that got there in the first place.  Sometimes, I would welcome the
> chance to possibly catch up to you or Glotmorf.  I probably just lost votes
> from you too, but this is really something that levels the playing field a
> bit, which is really in everyone's best interests.  If you have any better
> applications, I would welcome them.

It doesn't level the playing field; it just lowers it a bit. You're just as
likely to be pulled back by it as I or Glotmorf.

As for a better application, maybe something that punishes people for
failure... Like, if someone makes more failing proposals than anyone else, e
gets burnt... Then, you could also claim that you're assisting em, by
stopping em from hurting emselves :)

--Wonko

Remember, half the people in the world are below average.

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 19:50:15 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Bruce!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 5:00 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>Oh yeah, this was what I was going to propose.
>
>{{__Proosal?__
>
>Create a new rule, entitled __The Flaming Gremlin__ with the following
>BRUCE 
>delimited text:
>
>BRUCE
>There exists a Gremlin known as The Flaming Gremlin, also known as Bruce.=
  
>At the beginning of each nweek, after the Immunity Idol is awarded, Bruce 
>gives a random player the attribute "Burnt".  When a player is Burnt, e
>may 
>make one fewer proposal then e would normally be able to.  No two players 
>may be Burnt at the same time.  When a second player becomes Burnt, the 
>first player loses the attribute "Burnt".  If a player who is Burnt makes
>no 
>proposals before a Ballot is issued, Bruce goes into Hiding until the next=
 
>Ballot is issued. [[The player would then remain Burnt for an extra
>nweek.]]
>
>The player who holds the Immunity Idol is not considered to be a player
>for 
>the purposes of Bruce choosing a random player to become Burnt.
>
>This rule takes precedence over rule 212. [[Bandwidth Rationing]]
>
>}}
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

While the "Burnt" in your proposal is lexically different from the "Burned"=
 in r355, I'd still like to see something sufficiently distinct to avoid=
 confusion, so that we don't have another situation like "thrown" vs.=
 "thrown Elbonia-style". (I suppose we could replace the latter with=
 "hurled", except that now we have beer we may need that word for something=
 totally different...)

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 19:56:10 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #5
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 10:45 PM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>> Yeah, you're right...I was aiming for 2/3 full, actually.  And that's=3D
>>  probably a little tight, even so...so kindly replace "Maximum Entropy /
>#=3D
>>  of players / 2" with "((Maximum Entropy) / (# of players)) / 2", and=3D
>>  replace "Maximum Entropy / # of
>> players / 3" with "(((Maximum Entropy) / (# of players)) / 4) * 3".
>> 
>
> Can I suggest (Maximum Entropy) / (2 * # of players)
> and       (3 * Maximum Entropy) / (4 * # of players)  ?

I like my syntax of the first better, if only because it's trying to be=
 explicit about what I'm trying to do.  Though if I want that I could do

((Maximum Entropy) / (# of players)) * (1/2)

and

((Maximum Entropy) / (# of players)) * (3/4)

Not the simplest form, but I'm more interested in expression of intent than=
 arithmetic simplicity.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 20:17:20 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: This one should work.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 5:05 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>{{ __Immunity Idol, v2.5__
>
>Amend rule 293 by adding the following -0- delimited text following the 
>list.
>
>-0-
>Any rule which specifies the existance of a Gremlin must also state how
>that 
>Gremlin affects the player who holds the Immunity Idol.
>-0-
>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

Perhaps what you're looking for is

"Any proposal or rule which creates or modifies a rule to specify the=
 existence of a Gremlin, but fails to also create or modify a rule to=
 specify how said Gremlin affects the Player who holds the Immunity Idol,=
 shall have no effect."

Yes, this effectively grandfathers the existing disputed rules.  Bummer.=
  That means the existing disputed rules still exist, and their Gremlins=
 still affect the holder of the Immunity Idol.  I suggest, then, that=
 someone propose something so that they don't.

I also suggest we try to work on establishing criteria for how illegal=
 events fail to happen rather than simply saying such-and-such game object=
 "must" do something if it wants to exist.  Demanding a game object do=
 something does not prevent non-compliant game objects from existing; you=
 merely wind up with non-compliant game objects.  Claiming that=
 non-compliance is equivalent to non-existence is getting back to the old=
 argument that illegal acts don't occur, and that our temporary perception=
 of an illegal act is simply a hallucination that has to be dispelled.

Besides, if we can't have rules in conflict, why do we have conflict=
 resolution mechanisms?  What matters if a rule defers to a rule with a=
 lower number or higher chutzpah?  The moment there's any clear indication=
 of conflict, that rule can't exist, right?

I don't buy it.  In my opinion, part of the reason for having conflict=
 resolution mechanisms is that, if there is a conflict between Rule A and=
 Rule B, we can consciously decide which rule we'd rather have around,=
 rather than automatically blowing one of them away.  Maybe the fact that=
 Rule B is in defiance of Rule A indicates there's a problem with Rule A.=
  Note that that is exactly what we're noticing now: that there's a problem=
 with the Immunity Idol rule that should be fixed.  If the rules that=
 conflict with it are simply culled, the problem might not otherwise be=
 addressed.

I still maintain that the existence or nonexistence of rules should be=
 determined solely by the proposal mechanism, and that the conflict=
 resolution mechanism is sufficient.

Which means y'all will probably laugh yourselves silly over my next=
 proposal.

Bummer. :)

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Insta-Rules
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 20:49:25 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>{{ _The Other End of the Entropy Axis_
>
>[[
>
>There he was.  Just standing there.
>
>Wonko had been looking for him since that orbital-insertion tackle he'd 
>made.  Wonko had recovered the ball, but still Glotmorf was on the short 
>list.
>
>And as Wonko hefted Rocky bt the ankle, he reckoned the list was about to 
>get shorter.
>
>He twirled the gremlin over his head.  With a dopplering "owowowowow" 
>coming from above, he used his free hand to draw a bead on Glotmorf, who 
>was still standing there, watching him now, grinning like an idiot.
>
>Wonko drew back to throw and --
>
>*TWEET*
>
>Wha...?
>
>There was a referee working his hand signals for the spectators. "Invalid 
>Target.  Wonko.  No throw."
>
>"Invalid target?  What, Glotmorf?  Since when?"
>
>"IR1: It is illegal to throw gremlins at Glotmorf."
>
>"Huh?  Where'd that rule come from?"
>
>"I made it," called Glotmorf, looking smug.
>
>"Whaddaya mean, you made it?  You can't just...OW!"  Yes, that sizzling 
>sound had been the palm of Wonko's hand.  He dropped Rocky and waved the 
>hand frantically as he yelled, "You can't make your own rules!"
>
>"You can now," Glotmorf sneered.  "Guess you didn't see the update."  He 
>pulled out his PDA and called something up.
>
>Wonko heard his Palm beep.  He gingerly drew it out and saw Glotmorf had 
>forwarded him the text of a new rule:
>
>]]
>
>{{ _Insta-Rules_
>
>An Insta-Rule is a rule that is created as a game action rather than 
>through a proposal.  An Insta-Rule must conform to the following format:
>
>{ It is { legal | illegal } to { { { throw at | give to | take from } { 
>players | grid locations | <specific player> | <specific grid location> } { 
>gremlins | beer cans | <specific MO> } } | { { enter | remain in | enter or 
>remain in } <specific grid location> [ without bouncing Elbonia-style ] } } 
>}.
>
>where { and } delimit a set from which one item must be chosen, or a member 
>of a set; [ and ] delimit optional text; and < and > delimit a category of 
>information to be filled in.
>
>Insta-Rules are identified as such, and must be unique from other 
>currently-existing Insta-Rules.  Insta-Rules take precedence over other 
>Insta-Rules created before them.
>
>Each Player has an attribute called Insta-Ruler, with an initial value of 
>0.  At the beginning of each nweek, if a Player's Insta-Ruler is greater 
>than 0, it is decreased by 1.
>
>Once per nweek, if a Player's Insta-Ruler is 5 or less, e can declare an 
>Insta-Ruling, which consists of one of the following:
>
>1. the enactment of an Insta-Rule
>2. the repeal of an existing Insta-Rule
>
>Insta-Rulings are implemented at the end of the nweek; at that time, the 
>Insta-Ruler of the Player who made the Insta-Ruling is increased by 2.
>
>}}
>
>[[
>
>Wonko stared at the text in disbelief. "Who the hell came up with this?"
>
>"Dunno.  Some scientist, I hear."
>
>"And you made it illegal to throw gremlins at you?"
>
>Glotmorf grinned. "Yep."
>
>Wonko looked up slowly. "And I can make rules too?"
>
>The grid weakened a little. "Well...yeah..."
>
>Ignoring the other players winding up with gremlins, Wonko entered some 
>text into his Palm, then looked up at Glotmorf with grim satisfaction.  
>Glotmorf looked worried...
>
>...And then he was gone, sailing high over the grid, the place where he'd 
>stood occupied by a huge spring slowly retracting into the ground.  Wonko 
>watched the trajectory with a tight smile.
>
>He was still smiling after he'd been pummeled senseless by flung gremlins.
>
>]]
>
>}}
>
>

Hmm...  Gargh.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 20:55:19 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Upper House
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 11:13 PM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>{{
>__The Upper House__
>
>If proposal #553 passed then create a rule titled __The Upper House__
> {{
>  There exists a society called `The Upper House'.  While the public
>rules of this society ever deem it to have less members than three
>then all active players shall be considered members.
> }}
> and set the rules of The Upper House to be as defined by the {{<<}} and
> {{>>}} delimited text below with the addition of the later {{@@}}
>delimited text.
>
>Otherwise create a rule titled __The Upper House__
> {{
>  There exists an entity called `The Upper House' which is a grouping
>of players.  Should it be that less than three players are members
>then the benefits and duties of being a member shall be applied to all
>active players.
>
>  The rules binding The Upper House are:
> }}
> and append the {{<<}} and {{>>}} delimited text below
>
><<
>[[
> Having been called to the Judge's bench for the third time, and for
>the third time judged on a case and had my opinion made part of the
>precident of the state I returned to my place watching the football
>game only to be interrupted by a flunky who greeted me as `My Lord'.
>
> `Why do you address me as such?', I asked him, somewhat puzzled.
>
> `It is because that with your third judgement you have joined the
>Upper House, my Lord.'
>]]
> 1) All players who have given a Judgement on 3 more CFJs that have
>not been successfully appealed than they have on CFJs that have been
>successfully appealed are members of The Upper House unless they
>choose not to be by rule 2. 
>
> 2) Any member of The Upper House may declare in a public forum that
>they wish to suspend their membership.  Any player whos membership is
>currently suspended may choose to reactivate their membership.
>Players whos membership is suspended are not members of The Upper
>House even if rule 1 says that they are.
>
>[[
> `Pull the other one, it's got bells on, and I've never heard of the
>Upper House.'
>
> `Well, m'Lord, it was historically also a place where laws to be
>created were discussed and voted on, but in recent years it has become
>more of a place where rules are interpreted'
>
> `Well, what do I have to do?'
>
> `Think about rules when people ask the House to do so.'
>]]
>
> 3) If The Upper House is called to Judge on a CFJ then a panel of
>three of its members is chosen at random.  The panel has one nweek to
>come up with a judgement between them that at least two of them agree
>with.  A member of the panel then posts this judgement to a public
>forum and The Upper House has then Judged on the CFJ.
>
> 4) The Upper House cannot Judge on the same CFJ twice.
>>>
>[[
> It sounded like an easy job to me, so I didn't complain.  I just lay
>back and waited to see what happened next.
>]]
>
>@@
> 5) If a majority of the members of The Upper House agree to a change
>to its rules on a public forum within a period of 72 hours then that
>change is made.
>@@
>
>[[Someone else can tie this into the Appeal's process (or I'll do it
>my self next nweek)]]
>}}

Under what circumstances would the Upper House be asked to render a=
 judgment?  Is the Upper House considered a Player for the purposes of=
 Judge selection?

And if all Players are automatically members since the Upper House has zero=
 members when it's first created, how does 1) kick in?  For that matter, if=
 I now say, as per 2), that I choose to suspend my membership, since all=
 Players have the benefits and duties of the Upper House, but later, after=
 1) kicks in, I say I wish to reactivate my membership, am I then a member=
 whether or not I'd qualify under 1)?

I see where you're going with it.  Interesting, but needs a little work.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 21:48:53 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Insta-Rules
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _The Other End of the Entropy Axis_
> 
> [[
> 
> There he was.  Just standing there.
> 
> Wonko had been looking for him since that orbital-insertion tackle he'd made.
> Wonko had recovered the ball, but still Glotmorf was on the short list.
> 
> And as Wonko hefted Rocky bt the ankle, he reckoned the list was about to get
> shorter.
> 
> He twirled the gremlin over his head.  With a dopplering "owowowowow" coming
> from above, he used his free hand to draw a bead on Glotmorf, who was still
> standing there, watching him now, grinning like an idiot.
> 
> Wonko drew back to throw and --
> 
> *TWEET*
> 
> Wha...?
> 
> There was a referee working his hand signals for the spectators. "Invalid
> Target.  Wonko.  No throw."
> 
> "Invalid target?  What, Glotmorf?  Since when?"
> 
> "IR1: It is illegal to throw gremlins at Glotmorf."
> 
> "Huh?  Where'd that rule come from?"
> 
> "I made it," called Glotmorf, looking smug.
> 
> "Whaddaya mean, you made it?  You can't just...OW!"  Yes, that sizzling sound
> had been the palm of Wonko's hand.  He dropped Rocky and waved the hand
> frantically as he yelled, "You can't make your own rules!"
> 
> "You can now," Glotmorf sneered.  "Guess you didn't see the update."  He
> pulled out his PDA and called something up.
> 
> Wonko heard his Palm beep.  He gingerly drew it out and saw Glotmorf had
> forwarded him the text of a new rule:
> 
> ]]
> 
> {{ _Insta-Rules_
> 
> An Insta-Rule is a rule that is created as a game action rather than through a
> proposal.  An Insta-Rule must conform to the following format:
> 
> { It is { legal | illegal } to { { { throw at | give to | take from } {
> players | grid locations | <specific player> | <specific grid location> } {
> gremlins | beer cans | <specific MO> } } | { { enter | remain in | enter or
> remain in } <specific grid location> [ without bouncing Elbonia-style ] } } }.
> 
> where { and } delimit a set from which one item must be chosen, or a member of
> a set; [ and ] delimit optional text; and < and > delimit a category of
> information to be filled in.
> 
> Insta-Rules are identified as such, and must be unique from other
> currently-existing Insta-Rules.  Insta-Rules take precedence over other
> Insta-Rules created before them.
> 
> Each Player has an attribute called Insta-Ruler, with an initial value of 0.
> At the beginning of each nweek, if a Player's Insta-Ruler is greater than 0,
> it is decreased by 1.
> 
> Once per nweek, if a Player's Insta-Ruler is 5 or less, e can declare an
> Insta-Ruling, which consists of one of the following:
> 
> 1. the enactment of an Insta-Rule
> 2. the repeal of an existing Insta-Rule
> 
> Insta-Rulings are implemented at the end of the nweek; at that time, the
> Insta-Ruler of the Player who made the Insta-Ruling is increased by 2.
> 
> }}
> 
> [[
> 
> Wonko stared at the text in disbelief. "Who the hell came up with this?"
> 
> "Dunno.  Some scientist, I hear."
> 
> "And you made it illegal to throw gremlins at you?"
> 
> Glotmorf grinned. "Yep."
> 
> Wonko looked up slowly. "And I can make rules too?"
> 
> The grid weakened a little. "Well...yeah..."
> 
> Ignoring the other players winding up with gremlins, Wonko entered some text
> into his Palm, then looked up at Glotmorf with grim satisfaction.  Glotmorf
> looked worried...
> 
> ...And then he was gone, sailing high over the grid, the place where he'd
> stood occupied by a huge spring slowly retracting into the ground.  Wonko
> watched the trajectory with a tight smile.
> 
> He was still smiling after he'd been pummeled senseless by flung gremlins.
> 
> ]]
> 
> }}
> 
> 

Ow. That hurts.

--Wonko

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 21:50:38 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Insta-Rules
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _The Other End of the Entropy Axis_
> 
> [[
> 
> There he was.  Just standing there.
> 
> Wonko had been looking for him since that orbital-insertion tackle he'd made.
> Wonko had recovered the ball, but still Glotmorf was on the short list.
> 
> And as Wonko hefted Rocky bt the ankle, he reckoned the list was about to get
> shorter.
> 
> He twirled the gremlin over his head.  With a dopplering "owowowowow" coming
> from above, he used his free hand to draw a bead on Glotmorf, who was still
> standing there, watching him now, grinning like an idiot.
> 
> Wonko drew back to throw and --
> 
> *TWEET*
> 
> Wha...?
> 
> There was a referee working his hand signals for the spectators. "Invalid
> Target.  Wonko.  No throw."
> 
> "Invalid target?  What, Glotmorf?  Since when?"
> 
> "IR1: It is illegal to throw gremlins at Glotmorf."
> 
> "Huh?  Where'd that rule come from?"
> 
> "I made it," called Glotmorf, looking smug.
> 
> "Whaddaya mean, you made it?  You can't just...OW!"  Yes, that sizzling sound
> had been the palm of Wonko's hand.  He dropped Rocky and waved the hand
> frantically as he yelled, "You can't make your own rules!"
> 
> "You can now," Glotmorf sneered.  "Guess you didn't see the update."  He
> pulled out his PDA and called something up.
> 
> Wonko heard his Palm beep.  He gingerly drew it out and saw Glotmorf had
> forwarded him the text of a new rule:
> 
> ]]
> 
> {{ _Insta-Rules_
> 
> An Insta-Rule is a rule that is created as a game action rather than through a
> proposal.  An Insta-Rule must conform to the following format:
> 
> { It is { legal | illegal } to { { { throw at | give to | take from } {
> players | grid locations | <specific player> | <specific grid location> } {
> gremlins | beer cans | <specific MO> } } | { { enter | remain in | enter or
> remain in } <specific grid location> [ without bouncing Elbonia-style ] } } }.
> 
> where { and } delimit a set from which one item must be chosen, or a member of
> a set; [ and ] delimit optional text; and < and > delimit a category of
> information to be filled in.
> 
> Insta-Rules are identified as such, and must be unique from other
> currently-existing Insta-Rules.  Insta-Rules take precedence over other
> Insta-Rules created before them.
> 
> Each Player has an attribute called Insta-Ruler, with an initial value of 0.
> At the beginning of each nweek, if a Player's Insta-Ruler is greater than 0,
> it is decreased by 1.
> 
> Once per nweek, if a Player's Insta-Ruler is 5 or less, e can declare an
> Insta-Ruling, which consists of one of the following:
> 
> 1. the enactment of an Insta-Rule
> 2. the repeal of an existing Insta-Rule
> 
> Insta-Rulings are implemented at the end of the nweek; at that time, the
> Insta-Ruler of the Player who made the Insta-Ruling is increased by 2.
> 
> }}
> 
> [[
> 
> Wonko stared at the text in disbelief. "Who the hell came up with this?"
> 
> "Dunno.  Some scientist, I hear."
> 
> "And you made it illegal to throw gremlins at you?"
> 
> Glotmorf grinned. "Yep."
> 
> Wonko looked up slowly. "And I can make rules too?"
> 
> The grid weakened a little. "Well...yeah..."
> 
> Ignoring the other players winding up with gremlins, Wonko entered some text
> into his Palm, then looked up at Glotmorf with grim satisfaction.  Glotmorf
> looked worried...
> 
> ...And then he was gone, sailing high over the grid, the place where he'd
> stood occupied by a huge spring slowly retracting into the ground.  Wonko
> watched the trajectory with a tight smile.
> 
> He was still smiling after he'd been pummeled senseless by flung gremlins.
> 
> ]]
> 
> }}
> 
> 

I seem to recall that we had problems in the past with proposals containing
<'s, because html picks 'em up and does stuff with 'em. Might in not be a
good idea to use some other sort of delimeter?

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:11:26 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Insta-Rules
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 9:50 PM Wonko wrote:

>I seem to recall that we had problems in the past with proposals=
 containing
><'s, because html picks 'em up and does stuff with 'em. Might in not be a
>good idea to use some other sort of delimeter?
>
>
>--Wonko

I was trying to stay Bachus-Naur, but sure, I'm open to suggestions.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:15:43 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Revision and a new proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 9:50 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>{{
>__Can we talk about this later, honey?__
>
>{{
>__Shelving a topic__
>
>A Player may vote "SHELVE" for a proposal on a ballot.  For the purposes
>of 
>vote counting, votes of "SHELVE" count as votes against the 
>proposal.  However, if the proposal fails no effects occur, as if the 
>proposal had not failed.  This rule supercedes rules 124 and 154 in this 
>regard.  Instead, at the beginning of the next nweek [[ recall that 
>counting happens during the same nweek as voting ]], a new proposal is 
>created which has the same text as did the final revision of the proposal 
>that failed.  This proposal is treated as if it had been proposed by the 
>original proposal's proponent.
>
>If a proposal is vetoed by the Administrator, this rule does not affect 
>that proposal.
>}}
>
>[[ This allows us to postpone otherwise good proposals until the next
>nweek 
>if they have fatal, fatal bugs in them, rather than the proponent losing 
>charm and points, not to menation having to repropose. ]]
>
>}}

Does the shelved proposal count against the following week's bandwidth=
 limit?

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:24:41 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Revision and a new
  proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:15 PM 2002-04-09 -0400, you wrote:
>On 4/9/02 at 9:50 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >{{
> >__Can we talk about this later, honey?__
> >
> >{{
> >__Shelving a topic__
> >
> >A Player may vote "SHELVE" for a proposal on a ballot.  For the purposes
> >of
> >vote counting, votes of "SHELVE" count as votes against the
> >proposal.  However, if the proposal fails no effects occur, as if the
> >proposal had not failed.  This rule supercedes rules 124 and 154 in this
> >regard.  Instead, at the beginning of the next nweek [[ recall that
> >counting happens during the same nweek as voting ]], a new proposal is
> >created which has the same text as did the final revision of the proposal
> >that failed.  This proposal is treated as if it had been proposed by the
> >original proposal's proponent.
> >
> >If a proposal is vetoed by the Administrator, this rule does not affect
> >that proposal.
> >}}
> >
> >[[ This allows us to postpone otherwise good proposals until the next
> >nweek
> >if they have fatal, fatal bugs in them, rather than the proponent losing
> >charm and points, not to menation having to repropose. ]]
> >
> >}}
>
>Does the shelved proposal count against the following week's bandwidth limit?

It is treated ath if it came from ith proponent, so yeth.  However, if 
people think that ith a bad idea, ith thimple to fix.  I'd like to get an 
idea of public opinion on that firtht.  Ith not affecting anything thith 
week anyway, tho if we need to fix it we can do that next nweek.  That okay 
by you, Glotmorf?

Bean

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:25:43 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Revision and a new proposal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> Firtht of all, I'd like to revithe my propothal that leth people leave the
> Grid:
> 
> REVITHION
> =========
> 
> Revithe propothal 543 to read:
> {{
> __Mommy, I want off!!__
> 
> Revise Rule 301 in the following manner:
> 
> 1) Add the following text to the end of paragraph 8 (the one about entering
> the grid):
> 
> "A Player may leave the Grid by announcing on a public Forum eir intention
> to do so, however, a player may only leave the Grid if e was on the Grid at
> the beginning of the nweek."
> 
> 2) Change the text:
> 
> "A Player may enter the Grid by announcing on a public Forum that e will
> enter the Grid at a particular (x,y) coordinate location."
> 
> to:
> 
> "A Player may enter the Grid by announcing on a public Forum that e will
> enter the Grid at a particular (x,y) coordinate location, however, a player
> may only enter the Grid if e was in Limbo at the beginning of the nweek."
> }}
> 
> PROPOTHAL
> =========
> 
> Now, for a new propothal:
> 
> {{
> __Can we talk about this later, honey?__
> 
> {{
> __Shelving a topic__
> 
> A Player may vote "SHELVE" for a proposal on a ballot.  For the purposes of
> vote counting, votes of "SHELVE" count as votes against the
> proposal.  However, if the proposal fails no effects occur, as if the
> proposal had not failed.  This rule supercedes rules 124 and 154 in this
> regard.  Instead, at the beginning of the next nweek [[ recall that
> counting happens during the same nweek as voting ]], a new proposal is
> created which has the same text as did the final revision of the proposal
> that failed.  This proposal is treated as if it had been proposed by the
> original proposal's proponent.
> 
> If a proposal is vetoed by the Administrator, this rule does not affect
> that proposal.
> }}
> 
> [[ This allows us to postpone otherwise good proposals until the next nweek
> if they have fatal, fatal bugs in them, rather than the proponent losing
> charm and points, not to menation having to repropose. ]]
> 
> }}
> 

When you say "if the proposal fails", do you mean if it fails but recieved a
SHELVE vote, or if it fails because it got mostly SHELVE votes, or if it
would have passed if the SHELVE vote was yes, or if it got more SHELVE votes
than YES's or NO's, or what?
--Wonko

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
everything." 
    - Joseph Stalin

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:42:57 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposals
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> As I don't have much to propose this nweek, here goes.
> 
> {{__Repeal Rule 207__
> 
> Rule 2-0-7
> Does nothing in fact and so
> we shall repeal it.
> 
> }}
> 
> {{__Repeal Rule 210__
> 
> Position is dumb.
> No one ever uses it.
> Two-Ten is repealed.
> 
> }}

Now I remember why I didn't like this one! Repealing 210 is part of the
Admin's "Remove worthless stuff" proposal.

Speaking of which, I would appreciate it if the Yeti rule weren't repealed.
I'll try to come up with an alternative method of Yetiism that doesn't
involve 8 movements.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:15:22 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A Revision or Two
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 10:34 PM Wonko wrote:

>I amend p538 in its entirety to:
>
>{{
>__Mass Production__
>
>{{
>__Replication__
>
>If a player possessess a Gnome and a Beer Can, e may feed the Can to the
>Gnome, which destroys the Can. If a Gnome is Wet and it is fed a Beer Can,
>it turns into an Amorphous Blob. At the end of each nweek, each Blob that
>existed at the beginning of that nweek turns into two Gnomes of the same
>type as the Gnome which became the Blob in the first place.
>}}
>
>}}

Is garthing a brook (or having Rocky do it for us) the only current way of=
 getting a Gnome Wet?  Is it desirable to leave it at that?

You know...a little inspiration is a dangerous thing...

>{{
>__Enter the Gnome__
>
>{{
>__The Gnome Factory__
>
>There exists an entity called the Gnome Factory. At the beginning of each
>nweek, the Gnome Factory creates one Gnome of a random type on a random
>legal square of Substance Mud.
>}}
>
>}}

I'd like to see this weighted toward the types of Gnome that there are=
 fewest of at the time, but I suppose that'd be a pain in the ass for Mr.=
 A...

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:17:01 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: gnomes
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> {{__Weather Gnomes__
> 
> Create a rule entitled __Weather Gnomes__ with the following -0- delimited
> text:
> 
> -0-
> There exist Gnomes of type Weather.  Whenever a Weather Gnome is destroyed,
> the weather is updated immediately.  Weather Gnomes have 1 hit point.
> -0-
> 
> Create 3 Weather Gnomes and place them at random squares on the Grid which
> do not contain Big Rocks.
> 
> }}
> 
> 
> 
> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> *Ignore this signature if :
> 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> 2) it seems outdated
> 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> Thank you, and have a nice day.*
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> 

Won't that be hard on the admin?

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:17:59 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A Revision or Two
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/9/02 at 10:34 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> I amend p538 in its entirety to:
>> 
>> {{
>> __Mass Production__
>> 
>> {{
>> __Replication__
>> 
>> If a player possessess a Gnome and a Beer Can, e may feed the Can to the
>> Gnome, which destroys the Can. If a Gnome is Wet and it is fed a Beer Can,
>> it turns into an Amorphous Blob. At the end of each nweek, each Blob that
>> existed at the beginning of that nweek turns into two Gnomes of the same
>> type as the Gnome which became the Blob in the first place.
>> }}
>> 
>> }}
> 
> Is garthing a brook (or having Rocky do it for us) the only current way of
> getting a Gnome Wet?  Is it desirable to leave it at that?
> 
> You know...a little inspiration is a dangerous thing...
> 
>> {{
>> __Enter the Gnome__
>> 
>> {{
>> __The Gnome Factory__
>> 
>> There exists an entity called the Gnome Factory. At the beginning of each
>> nweek, the Gnome Factory creates one Gnome of a random type on a random
>> legal square of Substance Mud.
>> }}
>> 
>> }}
> 
> I'd like to see this weighted toward the types of Gnome that there are fewest
> of at the time, but I suppose that'd be a pain in the ass for Mr. A...
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
Well, there's sponges... and someone ought to add rain at some point...

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:50:22 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: testing...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

A couple emails didn't seem to go through.  Just testing...

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:51:00 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A Revision or Two
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/9/02 at 10:34 PM Wonko wrote:

>I amend p538 in its entirety to:
>
>{{
>__Mass Production__
>
>{{
>__Replication__
>
>If a player possessess a Gnome and a Beer Can, e may feed the Can to the
>Gnome, which destroys the Can. If a Gnome is Wet and it is fed a Beer Can,
>it turns into an Amorphous Blob. At the end of each nweek, each Blob that
>existed at the beginning of that nweek turns into two Gnomes of the same
>type as the Gnome which became the Blob in the first place.
>}}
>
>}}

Is garthing a brook (or having Rocky do it for us) the only current way of=
 getting a Gnome Wet?  Is it desirable to leave it at that?

You know...a little inspiration is a dangerous thing...

>{{
>__Enter the Gnome__
>
>{{
>__The Gnome Factory__
>
>There exists an entity called the Gnome Factory. At the beginning of each
>nweek, the Gnome Factory creates one Gnome of a random type on a random
>legal square of Substance Mud.
>}}
>
>}}

I'd like to see this weighted toward the types of Gnome that there are=
 fewest of at the time, but I suppose that'd be a pain in the ass for Mr.=
 A...

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:56:21 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday
  afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 5:37 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>"The Other End of the Entropy Axis"... you've gotta be kidding. 561/0.

I not you kid.  I'd actually thought of something like this earlier, but it=
 wouldn't have been possible, since there weren't enough small actions=
 available to make tightly restricted dynamic rule possibilities around.

What this does is make it possible for the game to change in relatively=
 small ways every single nweek, at the hands of the players, without the=
 rigamarole.  Kinda like what things like the Token of Proposals and the=
 Immunity Idol do, except not as confined in purpose.  Yet, at least at the=
 moment, Insta-Rules are limited to affecting the grid and the various=
 activities thereon, which don't affect the overall game much at all.

The only problem I see offhand about Insta-Rules is that we might come to=
 see a veritable shitload of them...

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:52:25 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday afternoon)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/10/02 at 5:37 PM David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> Moves queued: Congenital Optimist, The Voice, Wonko, Glotmorf. (Glotmorf:
>> your move is legal, but your intended destination for flying Elbonian is
>> not - you can only fly to another Elbonian Airways location. You may wish
>> to resubmit your flight plan, since I'm disregarding it.)
> 
> Pfui.  Okay, rebook my flight to (18,12), please.  That should still put me in
> the right general area.
> 
> Glotmorf

Still doesn't work. You can only move to (12,12), (6,6), or (6,18) from
(6,12) because Football players can only make flights under 7 units.

--Wonko

 "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:58:45 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Sorry about this...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _And It's Not 42_
> 
> {{ _What Do You Get if You Throw a Gnome Into a Brook?_
> 
> You get a Wet Gnome.
> 
> }}
> 
> }}

Cut out the comments, and your prop looks like the above.

That means that we'd have a rule which says "You get a Wet Gnome".

I'd say this rule has ambiguity coming out of its metaphorical wazoo.

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:59:36 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
	(Wednesday afternoon)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/10/02 at 5:37 PM David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> "The Other End of the Entropy Axis"... you've gotta be kidding. 561/0.
> 
> I not you kid.  I'd actually thought of something like this earlier, but it
> wouldn't have been possible, since there weren't enough small actions
> available to make tightly restricted dynamic rule possibilities around.
> 
> What this does is make it possible for the game to change in relatively small
> ways every single nweek, at the hands of the players, without the rigamarole.
> Kinda like what things like the Token of Proposals and the Immunity Idol do,
> except not as confined in purpose.  Yet, at least at the moment, Insta-Rules
> are limited to affecting the grid and the various activities thereon, which
> don't affect the overall game much at all.
> 
> The only problem I see offhand about Insta-Rules is that we might come to see
> a veritable shitload of them...
> 
> Glotmorf

Remember when I said that I thought Weather Gnomes might be hell on the
admin? I was wrong. Next to Insta-rules, Weather Gnomes look like rules that
say "The admin need not do anything".

What you're asking for here is for the admin to be constantly rewriting not
only the proposal page, but now the Ruleset page as well.

Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I strongly suspect that this would be bad.

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:07:29 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Wednesday afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 4:52 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> On 4/10/02 at 5:37 PM David E. Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Moves queued: Congenital Optimist, The Voice, Wonko, Glotmorf.
>(Glotmorf:
>>> your move is legal, but your intended destination for flying Elbonian=
 is
>>> not - you can only fly to another Elbonian Airways location. You may
>wish
>>> to resubmit your flight plan, since I'm disregarding it.)
>> 
>> Pfui.  Okay, rebook my flight to (18,12), please.  That should still put
>me in
>> the right general area.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>Still doesn't work. You can only move to (12,12), (6,6), or (6,18) from
>(6,12) because Football players can only make flights under 7 units.
>
>--Wonko

Interesting.  R351 says I can be thrown at any other square containing an=
 Elbonian Airways.  It's only the chutzpah that keeps it from taking=
 precedence over R394...:)

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:12:21 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Sorry about this...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 4:58 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> {{ _And It's Not 42_
>> 
>> {{ _What Do You Get if You Throw a Gnome Into a Brook?_
>> 
>> You get a Wet Gnome.
>> 
>> }}
>> 
>> }}
>
>Cut out the comments, and your prop looks like the above.
>
>That means that we'd have a rule which says "You get a Wet Gnome".
>
>I'd say this rule has ambiguity coming out of its metaphorical wazoo.
>
>
>--Wonko

Oh, I guess.  I just couldn't resist.  One could argue, though, that the=
 title of the rule is part of the rule itself, and that therefore the=
 purpose of the content of the rule is to resolve the question posed by the=
 title of the rule.

Which may mean there are titles of existing rules that could be the subject=
 of CFJs...

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:43:30 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Wednesday afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 4:59 PM Wonko wrote:

>Remember when I said that I thought Weather Gnomes might be hell on the
>admin? I was wrong. Next to Insta-rules, Weather Gnomes look like rules
>that
>say "The admin need not do anything".
>
>What you're asking for here is for the admin to be constantly rewriting=
 not
>only the proposal page, but now the Ruleset page as well.
>
>Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I strongly suspect that this would be bad.
>
>--Wonko

Let's see...five-plus proposals per player per nweek, one grid move per=
 nweek, changes of locations of gremlins, gnomes, beer cans and other=
 objects, however many random-access modifications of the ruleset that the=
 proposals generate, however many CFJs get submitted (which, strictly=
 speaking, is unlimited), updating multiple roster attribute values for=
 each player each nweek...

What Insta-Rules proposes is, on the average, slightly less than one=
 addition to or deletion from a sequential list per player per nweek.=
  Compared to all the Admin currently does, Insta-Rules would probably be=
 one of the simplest things that could be added to the burden.

Unless we're going to turn introspective and only make proposals that=
 tighten the existing ruleset, just about anything we propose will create a=
 burden for the Admin.  In fact, turning introspective might make even more=
 work for the Admin, since that'd involve minor text editings to numerous=
 existing rules.

Not that I'm saying the Admin exists for the purposes of burdens being=
 dumped on him.  Except...that does in fact seem to be the nature of the=
 game.

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday afternoon) 
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:50:19 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Not that I'm saying the Admin exists for the purposes of burdens being=
>  dumped on him.  Except...that does in fact seem to be the nature of the=
>  game.

 A solution to this might be to devolve some responsibility...?

 WC.

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:51:04 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Wednesday afternoon) 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:50 PM 2002-04-10 +0100, you wrote:
> > Not that I'm saying the Admin exists for the purposes of burdens being=
> >  dumped on him.  Except...that does in fact seem to be the nature of the=
> >  game.
>
>  A solution to this might be to devolve some responsibility...?

Agreed.  Thith propothal ith for next nweek, ath day 8 hath already 
tharted.  Or if it hathn't... I make thith propothal at the thart of nday 
8.  Dithcuth.

{{
__The Ministers of the Realm__

{{
__Ministers__

There exist titles defining Ministers of the form "Minister of X", where X 
is a unique designator.  These titles are known as Ministries [[ This is a 
good enough defn for now ]].  A Ministry may only be assigned to a player 
as expicitly allowed by the rules.  Only one player may hold any given 
Ministry at any given time, and a player may only hold one Ministry at any 
given time.

Any proposal that would create a rule that defines a Ministry must also 
create rules that define the Powers and Responsabilities of that 
Ministry.  These rules may all be conincident.

The Powers of a Ministry is a list of actions.  A player that holds a 
Ministry may perform any of the actions in the Powers of their Ministry as 
if e were the Administrator.

The Responsabilities of a Ministry is a list of actions that a Minister 
must perform.

The Administrator may perform all the duties of any Minister if e so 
chooses.  The Administrator may also hold Titles which are also 
Ministries.  This rule supercedes Rule 263 in this regard.
}}

{{
__Ministerial Elections__

If at any time no player (or The Administrator) holds a Ministry, an 
Election is called for that Ministry.  The Election consists of two 
phases:  a Nomination phase immediately followed by a Voting Phase, each of 
which are 5 ndays long.  The Nomination phase of the Election begins at the 
first beginning of an nday after the Ministry is not held by any Player or 
The Administrator.

During the Nomination phase, a player may nominate another player or emself 
for the Ministry by declaring so in a public forum.  After a player has 
been nominated, a player may second the nomination by declaring so in a 
public forum.  If a nomination is seconded, the player nominated becomes a 
Candidate for the Ministry.  The Administrator is always a Candidate for 
every Election.

At the end of the Nomination phase, the Administrator shall issue a List of 
Candidates for the Election containing all the names of the Candidates for 
the Ministry.

During the Voting phase, players may cast one vote for one name on the List 
of Candidates for the Election by doing so in a public forum.  [[ Public 
voting only for Ministers ]]  The Administrator may also vote for one name 
of the List of Candidates, however there is no limit to the number of votes 
The Administrator may make.

At the end of the voting phase, the player (or The Administrator) whose 
name recieved the most votes is awarded the Ministry for one nyear, at 
which point it is revoked.  If there is an equal number of votes for one or 
more names, The Administrator must cast another vote to break the tie, at 
which point the Ministry is awarded as above.
}}

{{
__Ministerial Non-Confidence__

If a Minister who is not On Leave fails to perform one of the 
Responsabilities of eir Ministry within two ndays of the first opportunity 
that Minister had to perform the action, a player may call for a Vote of 
Non-Confidence in that Ministry by indicating e is doing so in a public forum.

A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal.  If a Vote of Non-Confidence 
passes, the Minister in question is stripped of eir Ministry.  [[ Thus an 
Election will be called. ]]
}}

Give half of the points gained by Bean for the passage of this proposal to 
Wild Card.

[[  Some Notes:

Ministries won't be able to be created in a vacuum.  We're going to have to 
consult the Admin on each one... here's a case where that veto may come in 
handy.  However, if we all co-operate a bit, and pick good responsabilities 
for the Ministers (Dave, you wanna suggest some... heck... propose some?), 
this will make our beloved Admin's life that much easier :)

Yes, I know Votes of Non-Confidence count for points and charm... but don't 
you think they should? :)
]]

}}

Bean

P.ETH.  Rule 0 hath exploded again....

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:51:29 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 7:55 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>{{
>__The Ministers of the Realm__
>
>{{
>__Ministers__
>
>There exist titles defining Ministers of the form "Minister of X", where X=
 
>is a unique designator.  These titles are known as Ministries [[ This is a=
 
>good enough defn for now ]].  A Ministry may only be assigned to a player 
>as expicitly allowed by the rules.  Only one player may hold any given 
>Ministry at any given time, and a player may only hold one Ministry at any=
 
>given time.
>
>Any proposal that would create a rule that defines a Ministry must also 
>create rules that define the Powers and Responsabilities of that 
>Ministry.  These rules may all be conincident.
>
>The Powers of a Ministry is a list of actions.  A player that holds a 
>Ministry may perform any of the actions in the Powers of their Ministry as=
 
>if e were the Administrator.
>
>The Responsabilities of a Ministry is a list of actions that a Minister 
>must perform.
>
>The Administrator may perform all the duties of any Minister if e so 
>chooses.  The Administrator may also hold Titles which are also 
>Ministries.  This rule supercedes Rule 263 in this regard.
>}}
>
>{{
>__Ministerial Elections__
>
>If at any time no player (or The Administrator) holds a Ministry, an 
>Election is called for that Ministry.  The Election consists of two 
>phases:  a Nomination phase immediately followed by a Voting Phase, each
>of 
>which are 5 ndays long.  The Nomination phase of the Election begins at
>the 
>first beginning of an nday after the Ministry is not held by any Player or=
 
>The Administrator.
>
>During the Nomination phase, a player may nominate another player or
>emself 
>for the Ministry by declaring so in a public forum.  After a player has 
>been nominated, a player may second the nomination by declaring so in a 
>public forum.  If a nomination is seconded, the player nominated becomes a=
 
>Candidate for the Ministry.  The Administrator is always a Candidate for 
>every Election.
>
>At the end of the Nomination phase, the Administrator shall issue a List
>of 
>Candidates for the Election containing all the names of the Candidates for=
 
>the Ministry.
>
>During the Voting phase, players may cast one vote for one name on the
>List 
>of Candidates for the Election by doing so in a public forum.  [[ Public 
>voting only for Ministers ]]  The Administrator may also vote for one name=
 
>of the List of Candidates, however there is no limit to the number of
>votes 
>The Administrator may make.
>
>At the end of the voting phase, the player (or The Administrator) whose 
>name recieved the most votes is awarded the Ministry for one nyear, at 
>which point it is revoked.  If there is an equal number of votes for one
>or 
>more names, The Administrator must cast another vote to break the tie, at 
>which point the Ministry is awarded as above.
>}}
>
>{{
>__Ministerial Non-Confidence__
>
>If a Minister who is not On Leave fails to perform one of the 
>Responsabilities of eir Ministry within two ndays of the first opportunity=
 
>that Minister had to perform the action, a player may call for a Vote of 
>Non-Confidence in that Ministry by indicating e is doing so in a public
>forum.
>
>A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal.  If a Vote of Non-Confidence 
>passes, the Minister in question is stripped of eir Ministry.  [[ Thus an 
>Election will be called. ]]
>}}
>
>Give half of the points gained by Bean for the passage of this proposal to=
 
>Wild Card.
>
>[[  Some Notes:
>
>Ministries won't be able to be created in a vacuum.  We're going to have
>to 
>consult the Admin on each one... here's a case where that veto may come in=
 
>handy.  However, if we all co-operate a bit, and pick good
>responsabilities 
>for the Ministers (Dave, you wanna suggest some... heck... propose some?),=
 
>this will make our beloved Admin's life that much easier :)
>
>Yes, I know Votes of Non-Confidence count for points and charm... but
>don't 
>you think they should? :)
>]]
>
>}}

First off, "responsibilities" doesn't have an "a" in it...:)

Aside from that, it's an interesting idea.  I'm only worried that=
 performing certain ministries might require access to the server that=
 neither its owner nor Mr. A would be willing to provide.  Sufficient=
 coding might allow a given ministry to be performed...but sufficient=
 coding might also make a ministry entirely unnecessary.

Certain things can be accomplished on other servers, like Yahoo with its=
 sharable file and notepad folders and Delphi with its flat-file databases,=
 though for safety's sake anything not on the main server should probably=
 be backed up from time to time, since players do, for whatever reason,=
 disappear.

Is this a first, or have other Nomics tried distributed administration?

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:04:54 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 09:51 PM 2002-04-10 -0400, you wrote:
>On 4/10/02 at 7:55 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >{{
> >__The Ministers of the Realm__
> >
> >{{
> >__Ministers__
> >
> >There exist titles defining Ministers of the form "Minister of X", where X
> >is a unique designator.  These titles are known as Ministries [[ This is a
> >good enough defn for now ]].  A Ministry may only be assigned to a player
> >as expicitly allowed by the rules.  Only one player may hold any given
> >Ministry at any given time, and a player may only hold one Ministry at any
> >given time.
> >
> >Any proposal that would create a rule that defines a Ministry must also
> >create rules that define the Powers and Responsabilities of that
> >Ministry.  These rules may all be conincident.
> >
> >The Powers of a Ministry is a list of actions.  A player that holds a
> >Ministry may perform any of the actions in the Powers of their Ministry as
> >if e were the Administrator.
> >
> >The Responsabilities of a Ministry is a list of actions that a Minister
> >must perform.
> >
> >The Administrator may perform all the duties of any Minister if e so
> >chooses.  The Administrator may also hold Titles which are also
> >Ministries.  This rule supercedes Rule 263 in this regard.
> >}}
> >
> >{{
> >__Ministerial Elections__
> >
> >If at any time no player (or The Administrator) holds a Ministry, an
> >Election is called for that Ministry.  The Election consists of two
> >phases:  a Nomination phase immediately followed by a Voting Phase, each
> >of
> >which are 5 ndays long.  The Nomination phase of the Election begins at
> >the
> >first beginning of an nday after the Ministry is not held by any Player or
> >The Administrator.
> >
> >During the Nomination phase, a player may nominate another player or
> >emself
> >for the Ministry by declaring so in a public forum.  After a player has
> >been nominated, a player may second the nomination by declaring so in a
> >public forum.  If a nomination is seconded, the player nominated becomes a
> >Candidate for the Ministry.  The Administrator is always a Candidate for
> >every Election.
> >
> >At the end of the Nomination phase, the Administrator shall issue a List
> >of
> >Candidates for the Election containing all the names of the Candidates for
> >the Ministry.
> >
> >During the Voting phase, players may cast one vote for one name on the
> >List
> >of Candidates for the Election by doing so in a public forum.  [[ Public
> >voting only for Ministers ]]  The Administrator may also vote for one name
> >of the List of Candidates, however there is no limit to the number of
> >votes
> >The Administrator may make.
> >
> >At the end of the voting phase, the player (or The Administrator) whose
> >name recieved the most votes is awarded the Ministry for one nyear, at
> >which point it is revoked.  If there is an equal number of votes for one
> >or
> >more names, The Administrator must cast another vote to break the tie, at
> >which point the Ministry is awarded as above.
> >}}
> >
> >{{
> >__Ministerial Non-Confidence__
> >
> >If a Minister who is not On Leave fails to perform one of the
> >Responsabilities of eir Ministry within two ndays of the first opportunity
> >that Minister had to perform the action, a player may call for a Vote of
> >Non-Confidence in that Ministry by indicating e is doing so in a public
> >forum.
> >
> >A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal.  If a Vote of Non-Confidence
> >passes, the Minister in question is stripped of eir Ministry.  [[ Thus an
> >Election will be called. ]]
> >}}
> >
> >Give half of the points gained by Bean for the passage of this proposal to
> >Wild Card.
> >
> >[[  Some Notes:
> >
> >Ministries won't be able to be created in a vacuum.  We're going to have
> >to
> >consult the Admin on each one... here's a case where that veto may come in
> >handy.  However, if we all co-operate a bit, and pick good
> >responsabilities
> >for the Ministers (Dave, you wanna suggest some... heck... propose some?),
> >this will make our beloved Admin's life that much easier :)
> >
> >Yes, I know Votes of Non-Confidence count for points and charm... but
> >don't
> >you think they should? :)
> >]]
> >
> >}}
>
>First off, "responsibilities" doesn't have an "a" in it...:)

Oopth, I hope that the adminithtrator ith kind enough to fix that.

>Aside from that, it's an interesting idea.  I'm only worried that 
>performing certain ministries might require access to the server that 
>neither its owner nor Mr. A would be willing to provide.  Sufficient 
>coding might allow a given ministry to be performed...but sufficient 
>coding might also make a ministry entirely unnecessary.

I think ith greatetht uthe will be with thingth like Gremlinth, or The 
Grid, where the file can be anywhere... in fact I think that the firtht 
Minithter I'm going to propothe will be the Minithter of Electhionth, 
rethponthable for handling Minithterial Electhionth.  I think that hath a 
thertain inherent beauty to it, n'etht pas?

Like I thaid though, Minithterth will have to be approved by the 
admin.  You'll note that even if a Minithter geth created by a rule, The 
Admin can uthurp em by taking the dutieth on emthelf (by voting for "The 
Admin" 1 000 000 timeth during the electhion :).

>Certain things can be accomplished on other servers, like Yahoo with its 
>sharable file and notepad folders and Delphi with its flat-file databases, 
>though for safety's sake anything not on the main server should probably 
>be backed up from time to time, since players do, for whatever reason, 
>disappear.

Exactly.  I think for many thingth we don't even need that much.... jutht 
thomthing akin to what you did with your PIG calculator.

>Is this a first, or have other Nomics tried distributed administration?

I'm thure other nomicth have done thith... I jutht can't think of any 
exampleth.

Bean

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:17:39 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> 
> Like I thaid though, Minithterth will have to be approved by the
> admin.  You'll note that even if a Minithter geth created by a rule, The
> Admin can uthurp em by taking the dutieth on emthelf (by voting for "The
> Admin" 1 000 000 timeth during the electhion :).
> 

That wouldn't really be neccessary, would it? I mean, you said yourself,

"The Administrator may perform all the duties of any Minister if e so
chooses.  The Administrator may also hold Titles which are also
Ministries.  This rule supercedes Rule 263 in this regard."

So the Admin could, at will, usurp any Minister simply by choosing to.

--Wonko

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
- Salvador Dali

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
	(Wednesday afternoon)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> Let's see...five-plus proposals per player per nweek, one grid move per nweek,
> changes of locations of gremlins, gnomes, beer cans and other objects, however
> many random-access modifications of the ruleset that the proposals generate,
> however many CFJs get submitted (which, strictly speaking, is unlimited),
> updating multiple roster attribute values for each player each nweek...

So, if we can only make 1 Insta-Rule per nweek, what's the point of the 5
Insta-Ruler Cap? We'll never have an Insta-Ruler that reads >1... Unless you
plan to allow more IRs than this proposal says...

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:24:46 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:17 PM 2002-04-10 -0400, you wrote:
>Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
>
> >
> > Like I thaid though, Minithterth will have to be approved by the
> > admin.  You'll note that even if a Minithter geth created by a rule, The
> > Admin can uthurp em by taking the dutieth on emthelf (by voting for "The
> > Admin" 1 000 000 timeth during the electhion :).
> >
>
>That wouldn't really be neccessary, would it? I mean, you said yourself,
>
>"The Administrator may perform all the duties of any Minister if e so
>chooses.  The Administrator may also hold Titles which are also
>Ministries.  This rule supercedes Rule 263 in this regard."

Well yeth, but if the player thtill had the Minithtry, e could thtill 
perform the Powerth of that Minithtry.  My point wath that the admin could 
have excluthive actheth to a Minithtry by making thure that no player ever 
held that Minithtry.... ith a minor point, but one I'd worry about if I 
were the Admin.

Bean

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:25:08 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> I'm thorry... next time I'll remember to potht thith to buthineth the
> firtht time... *thigh*
> 
> Bean
> 
> To be propothed at the beginning of nday 8 (after the ballot ith ithued),
> or now, whichever ith later:
> 
> {{
> __The Ministers of the Realm__
> 
> {{
> __Ministers__
> 
> There exist titles defining Ministers of the form "Minister of X", where X
> is a unique designator.  These titles are known as Ministries [[ This is a
> good enough defn for now ]].  A Ministry may only be assigned to a player
> as expicitly allowed by the rules.  Only one player may hold any given
> Ministry at any given time, and a player may only hold one Ministry at any
> given time.
> 
> Any proposal that would create a rule that defines a Ministry must also
> create rules that define the Powers and Responsabilities of that
> Ministry.  These rules may all be conincident.
> 
> The Powers of a Ministry is a list of actions.  A player that holds a
> Ministry may perform any of the actions in the Powers of their Ministry as
> if e were the Administrator.
> 
> The Responsabilities of a Ministry is a list of actions that a Minister
> must perform.
> 
> The Administrator may perform all the duties of any Minister if e so
> chooses.  The Administrator may also hold Titles which are also
> Ministries.  This rule supercedes Rule 263 in this regard.
> }}
> 
> {{
> __Ministerial Elections__
> 
> If at any time no player (or The Administrator) holds a Ministry, an
> Election is called for that Ministry.  The Election consists of two
> phases:  a Nomination phase immediately followed by a Voting Phase, each of
> which are 5 ndays long.  The Nomination phase of the Election begins at the
> first beginning of an nday after the Ministry is not held by any Player or
> The Administrator.
> 
> During the Nomination phase, a player may nominate another player or emself
> for the Ministry by declaring so in a public forum.  After a player has
> been nominated, a player may second the nomination by declaring so in a
> public forum.  If a nomination is seconded, the player nominated becomes a
> Candidate for the Ministry.  The Administrator is always a Candidate for
> every Election.
> 
> At the end of the Nomination phase, the Administrator shall issue a List of
> Candidates for the Election containing all the names of the Candidates for
> the Ministry.
> 
> During the Voting phase, players may cast one vote for one name on the List
> of Candidates for the Election by doing so in a public forum.  [[ Public
> voting only for Ministers ]]  The Administrator may also vote for one name
> of the List of Candidates, however there is no limit to the number of votes
> The Administrator may make.
> 
> At the end of the voting phase, the player (or The Administrator) whose
> name recieved the most votes is awarded the Ministry for one nyear, at
> which point it is revoked.  If there is an equal number of votes for one or
> more names, The Administrator must cast another vote to break the tie, at
> which point the Ministry is awarded as above.
> }}
> 
> {{
> __Ministerial Non-Confidence__
> 
> If a Minister who is not On Leave fails to perform one of the
> Responsabilities of eir Ministry within two ndays of the first opportunity
> that Minister had to perform the action, a player may call for a Vote of
> Non-Confidence in that Ministry by indicating e is doing so in a public forum.
> 
> A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal.  If a Vote of Non-Confidence
> passes, the Minister in question is stripped of eir Ministry.  [[ Thus an
> Election will be called. ]]
> }}
> 
> Give half of the points gained by Bean for the passage of this proposal to
> Wild Card.
> 
> [[  Some Notes:
> 
> Ministries won't be able to be created in a vacuum.  We're going to have to
> consult the Admin on each one... here's a case where that veto may come in
> handy.  However, if we all co-operate a bit, and pick good responsabilities
> for the Ministers (Dave, you wanna suggest some... heck... propose some?),
> this will make our beloved Admin's life that much easier :)
> 
> Yes, I know Votes of Non-Confidence count for points and charm... but don't
> you think they should? :)
> ]]
> 
> }}
> 

So if this runs in conjunction with the Societies idea, we could build a set
of entirely seperate Nomic Games that run completely indepentantly of B
Nomic, except that all of them could be altered by the players of the
OverGame? I like it...

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:27:50 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>So if this runs in conjunction with the Societies idea, we could build a 
>set of entirely seperate Nomic Games that run completely indepentantly of B 
>Nomic, except that all of them could be altered by the players of the 
>OverGame? I like it...
>
>--Wonko
>
>"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
>- Paul Erdos
>

You like that?  You sadistic bastard.  Playing the one nomic online plus my 
other, f2f nomic is hard enough.  I'd hate to have to play, like, 7 at once.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:27:54 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Wednesday afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 10:22 PM Wonko wrote:

>So, if we can only make 1 Insta-Rule per nweek, what's the point of the 5
>Insta-Ruler Cap? We'll never have an Insta-Ruler that reads >1... Unless
>you
>plan to allow more IRs than this proposal says...
>
>
>--Wonko

Making an Insta-Rule adds 2 to the Insta-Ruler; each nweek takes away 1.=
  You can make one Insta-Rule per nweek for a while, then you're stuck with=
 one every other nweek, unless you take a break from making them.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:29:43 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 10:27 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>>So if this runs in conjunction with the Societies idea, we could build a 
>>set of entirely seperate Nomic Games that run completely indepentantly of
>B 
>>Nomic, except that all of them could be altered by the players of the 
>>OverGame? I like it...
>>
>>--Wonko
>>
>>"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
>>- Paul Erdos
>>
>
>You like that?  You sadistic bastard.  Playing the one nomic online plus
>my 
>other, f2f nomic is hard enough.  I'd hate to have to play, like, 7 at
>once.
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

Tell you what...I'll be sure we bar you from our subgame, so your burden is=
 that much less. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:55:38 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
	(Wednesday afternoon)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/10/02 at 10:22 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> So, if we can only make 1 Insta-Rule per nweek, what's the point of the 5
>> Insta-Ruler Cap? We'll never have an Insta-Ruler that reads >1... Unless
>> you
>> plan to allow more IRs than this proposal says...
>> 
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> Making an Insta-Rule adds 2 to the Insta-Ruler; each nweek takes away 1.  You
> can make one Insta-Rule per nweek for a while, then you're stuck with one
> every other nweek, unless you take a break from making them.
> 
> Glotmorf

Oh, I get it. Sorry. Remind me to read people's proposals before I complain
about them.

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:57:51 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Operating independantly of the Ballot once
  again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:54 PM 2002-04-10 -0400, you wrote:
>Proposal 543/1
>Mommy, I want off!
>Author: Bean
>No. There are still bugs, like the fact that a Football player with the ball
>could zap off the Grid, return next nweek, and get 20 points for free.

No they couldn't.  They get removed from the rothter when they do that.... 
however, I can thee where you might have problemth with it.  It may not be 
100% airtight.

Bean

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:00:38 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Operating independantly of
	the Ballot once again...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> At 10:54 PM 2002-04-10 -0400, you wrote:
>> Proposal 543/1
>> Mommy, I want off!
>> Author: Bean
>> No. There are still bugs, like the fact that a Football player with the ball
>> could zap off the Grid, return next nweek, and get 20 points for free.
> 
> No they couldn't.  They get removed from the rothter when they do that....
> however, I can thee where you might have problemth with it.  It may not be
> 100% airtight.

Nowhere does it say "players off the Roster can't hold the Football". It
forbids people from simply signing off the Roster when they have the Ball,
but if they get booted off by something else, they keep the Ball. So next
nweek, they come down from the Grid into the Endzone, and rejoin the Team
they just were booted off of, gaining 20 points for doing very little.

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:12:19 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>So if this runs in conjunction with the Societies idea, we could build a
>set of entirely seperate Nomic Games that run completely indepentantly of B
>Nomic, except that all of them could be altered by the players of the
>OverGame? I like it...
>
>--Wonko
>
>"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
>- Paul Erdos
>

You like that?  You sadistic bastard.  Playing the one nomic online plus my
other, f2f nomic is hard enough.  I'd hate to have to play, like, 7 at once.

-What if a group simply seceded from the union inaccordance with a rule they 
made? Would a terrible civil war erupt, or would the game simply split in 
two? Just curious.-

                                         -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:18:36 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 11:12 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>-What if a group simply seceded from the union inaccordance with a rule
>they 
>made? Would a terrible civil war erupt, or would the game simply split in 
>two? Just curious.-
>
>                                         -BvS-

What would we do?  Send email bombs to each other?

Or write prose proposals detailing injuries we dealt?

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:19:37 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Operating independantly of the Ballot
  once again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/10/02 at 10:54 PM Wonko wrote:

>Proposal 560/0
>Fish-flavored Izing
>Author: Glotmorf
>No. It's a good idea, but the way it's currently phrased A) the lifespan=
 of
>the 'Babelized' attribute gets renewed whenever ANY player gets the Sushi,
>and B) even if it didn't, in 6 nweeks everyone could get the sushi once
>(12*4=3D48), and whoever had it last would be stuck with it for 12 extra
>days,
>after which there would be only one possible player to give it to. I wish
>we
>had SHELVING right now, though.

The B Nomic homepage says we have 13 players; that'd mean there'd be at=
 least one unbabelized player by the time another player was due to become=
 unbabelized.  You'd have a concern if the number of players dropped,=
 though, so perhaps next nweek I can try for a relational formula.

>Proposal 561/0
>The Other End of the Entropy Axis
>Author: Glotmorf
>Alright, I'll give it a Yes. But I rate it a measly 5. I don't like
>gratuitous beating up of me.

And how many times did I probably bounce?  I could start inventing=
 nonexistent players again to use in my stories, but hey...you got your=
 name in a widely read work of fiction...

>BTW, r0's gone all weird again... Now it looks like Nomilogue #5... I
>wonder, does the database have trouble numbering something 0?
>
>
>--Wonko

*sigh* Probably my fault.  You were right about those curly-brace=
 delimiters, I guess.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:23:28 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Operating independantly
  of the Ballot once again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:00 PM 2002-04-10 -0400, you wrote:
>Nowhere does it say "players off the Roster can't hold the Football". It
>forbids people from simply signing off the Roster when they have the Ball,
>but if they get booted off by something else, they keep the Ball. So next
>nweek, they come down from the Grid into the Endzone, and rejoin the Team
>they just were booted off of, gaining 20 points for doing very little.

Thith ith true, you are right.  However could we not get a propothal 
through before thomeone can pothibly exploit thith?

Bean

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:08:06 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday
 afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> So, if we can only make 1 Insta-Rule per nweek, what's the point of the 5
> Insta-Ruler Cap? We'll never have an Insta-Ruler that reads >1... Unless you
> plan to allow more IRs than this proposal says...

I think this'll get combined with "Ministers of the Realm" to yield
Insta-Ministers.

(Seriously, that probably will happen, assuming both Insta-Rules and the
Ministers proposals pass. Insta-Rules could be maintained separate from
"real" rules, such that they could just be a simple text file that the
Insta-Minister updates by hand once an nweek.)

...dave

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:11:07 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Operating independantly of the Ballot once
 again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> BTW, r0's gone all weird again... Now it looks like Nomilogue #5... I
> wonder, does the database have trouble numbering something 0?

Fixed.

For some reason I haven't yet narrowed down, the occasional really really
big text (and Nomilogues seem to fall into that category) just make most
Web browsers choke. The 'INSERT INTO nomicrules...' database query gets
choked up somewhere in the middle, which leads to one or more fields being
'0'. And 'rulenum' is one of 'em; it's actually the first field, I think,
so it gets zeroed rather a bit.

I suspect it's a Web browser problem, but it happens with Mozilla, Galeon,
Skipstone, AND Netscape, so at least it's a common problem. (lynx works
well enough, though. I only boot into Windows about once a month, so I
haven't even thought to test Internet Explorer.)

...dave

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Upper House 
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:41:53 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 Any more comments on this?:

 I revise proposal #559 in its entirity to read:

{{
__The Upper House__

If proposal #553 passed then create a rule titled __The Upper House__
 {{
  There exists a society called `The Upper House'.  While the public
rules of this society ever deem it to have less members than three
then all active players shall be considered eligible to be members.
 }}
 and set the rules of The Upper House to be as defined by the {{<<}} and
 {{>>}} delimited text below with the addition of the later {{@@}}
delimited text.

Otherwise create a rule titled __The Upper House__
 {{
  There exists an entity called `The Upper House' which is a grouping
of players.  Should it be that less than three players are members
then all active players shall be considered eligible to be members.

  The rules binding The Upper House are:
 }}
 and append the {{<<}} and {{>>}} delimited text below

<<
[[
 Having been called to the Judge's bench for the third time, and for
the third time judged on a case and had my opinion made part of the
precident of the state I returned to my place watching the football
game only to be interrupted by a flunky who greeted me as `My Lord'.

 `Why do you address me as such?', I asked him, somewhat puzzled.

 `It is because that with your third judgement you have joined the
Upper House, my Lord.'
]]
 1) All players who have given a Judgement on 3 more CFJs that have
not been successfully appealed than they have on CFJs that have been
successfully appealed are eligible to be members of The Upper House.

 2) All players who are eligible to be members are unless they
choose not to be by rule 3. 

 2) Any member of The Upper House may declare in a public forum that
they wish to suspend their membership.  Any player who is eligible to
be a member, but whos membership is currently suspended may
reactivate their membership by declaring that in a public forum.
Players whos membership is suspended are not members of The Upper
House.

[[
 `Pull the other one, it's got bells on, and I've never heard of the
Upper House.'

 `Well, m'Lord, it was historically also a place where laws to be
created were discussed and voted on, but in recent years it has become
more of a place where rules are interpreted'

 `Well, what do I have to do?'

 `Think about rules when people ask the House to do so.'
]]

 3) If The Upper House is called to Judge on a CFJ then a panel of
three of its members is chosen at random.  The panel has one nweek to
come up with a judgement between them that at least two of them agree
with.  A member of the panel then posts this judgement to a public
forum and The Upper House has then Judged on the CFJ.

 4) The Upper House cannot Judge on the same CFJ twice.
>>
[[
 It sounded like an easy job to me, so I didn't complain.  I just lay
back and waited to see what happened next.
]]

@@
 5) If a majority of the members of The Upper House agree to a change
to its rules on a public forum within a period of 72 hours then that
change is made.
@@

[[Someone else can tie this into the Appeals process (or I'll do it
my self next nweek)]]
}}

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:36:50 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Upper House 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:53 AM 2002-04-11 +0100, you wrote:

>  Oops - should've gone to business...
>
>  Any more comments on this?:
>
>  I revise proposal #559 in its entirity to read:

The bad newth ith, you're jutht a tad late with that.  You can't revithe 
after the ballot hath gone out.... thorry.

Bean

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Upper House 
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:50:56 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> The bad newth ith, you're jutht a tad late with that.  You can't revithe 
> after the ballot hath gone out.... thorry.

 Ooo, indeed.

 (rule 19/4 `Proposals may not be revised during Voting.')

 Oh, well, I don't think it is fundamentally flawed, I'll submit it
again or submit a revised version next nweek. 

 WC.

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:51:14 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Operating independantly of
	the Ballot once again...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/10/02 at 10:54 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Proposal 560/0
>> Fish-flavored Izing
>> Author: Glotmorf
>> No. It's a good idea, but the way it's currently phrased A) the lifespan of
>> the 'Babelized' attribute gets renewed whenever ANY player gets the Sushi,
>> and B) even if it didn't, in 6 nweeks everyone could get the sushi once
>> (12*4=48), and whoever had it last would be stuck with it for 12 extra
>> days,
>> after which there would be only one possible player to give it to. I wish
>> we
>> had SHELVING right now, though.
> 
> The B Nomic homepage says we have 13 players; that'd mean there'd be at least
> one unbabelized player by the time another player was due to become
> unbabelized.  You'd have a concern if the number of players dropped, though,
> so perhaps next nweek I can try for a relational formula.

13 players * 4 ndays/player = 52 ndays.
6 nweeks * 10 ndays/nweek = 60 ndays.
60 ndays - 52 ndays = 8 ndays.

That's how much extra time the last sushi victim will get. Then, when those
8 days are up, the first player would become the victim. And e'd have to
wait an nweek before someone else got unbabelized, and so each person would
get 10 ndays with the Sushi and then have only one person they could give it
to.

Maybe if it expired after 6 babel periods, it would be okay. That's just 2.4
nweeks...

>> Proposal 561/0
>> The Other End of the Entropy Axis
>> Author: Glotmorf
>> Alright, I'll give it a Yes. But I rate it a measly 5. I don't like
>> gratuitous beating up of me.
> 
> And how many times did I probably bounce?  I could start inventing nonexistent
> players again to use in my stories, but hey...you got your name in a widely
> read work of fiction...

I don't object to being in it, or to being made to attempt a throw and get
burnt for it. I object to the last sentence of it. I see no reason why you
should casually throw in "Oh yeah, and then e got the @#$% beaten out of em
by flying Gnomes".

I wonder if I'm allowed to sue for misrepresentation..:)

--Wonko

Clones are people two.

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:52:35 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Voting!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan David Amery,

> 539  ABS  <Do we want an infinity of Gnomes?>

It's only one per nweek.

And I have some plans for using them up...

--Wonko

Remember, half the people in the world are below average.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:12:17 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>-What if a group simply seceded from the union inaccordance with a rule
 >they
 >made? Would a terrible civil war erupt, or would the game simply split in
 >two? Just curious.-
 >
 >                                         -BvS-

What would we do?  Send email bombs to each other?

Or write prose proposals detailing injuries we dealt?

						Glotmorf

-It's like this book I read, where two planets were at war, and they did it 
all by computer- every day, certain people reported to disintigration 
chambers as casualties. We need disintigrators... Don't know why, but we 
do.-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:28:27 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:12 PM 2002-04-11 -0400, you wrote:
>>-What if a group simply seceded from the union inaccordance with a rule
> >they
> >made? Would a terrible civil war erupt, or would the game simply split in
> >two? Just curious.-
> >
> >                                         -BvS-
>
>What would we do?  Send email bombs to each other?
>
>Or write prose proposals detailing injuries we dealt?
>
>                                                 Glotmorf
>
>-It's like this book I read, where two planets were at war, and they did 
>it all by computer- every day, certain people reported to disintigration 
>chambers as casualties. We need disintigrators... Don't know why, but we do.-

And my death propothal didn't path either.  I remember a Thar Trek epithode 
about that.... The Enterprithe wath told it wath a cathualty.... it wathn't 
a great epithode...  I'll thut up now.

Bean

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:26:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:

> -It's like this book I read, where two planets were at war, and they did it
> all by computer- every day, certain people reported to disintigration
> chambers as casualties. We need disintigrators... Don't know why, but we
> do.-

Dude, you're thinking of an episode of "Star Trek."

Okay, so maybe it was a book was well, but I'll wager the Trek reference
is more familiar than the book.

...dave

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:35:26 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Ultra-Brief Recognizer...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 02:28 AM 2002-04-12 +0000, you wrote:
>Bean's flight plan is still illegal for a football player. Since e's now
>also On Leave (voluntary), I'm simply ruling that e stays at the airport,
>once e moves at the end of the nweek (unless e comes Off Leave long enough
>to file a valid flight plan).

Hate to be tho blunt, Dave, but I think it ith.  I'm at (12, 12).  I wanted 
to go to (18, 12).  That'th within theven.  I'm all legal, I've got my 
ticket and I'm buckling in.

Bean

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:36:55 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Insta-Rules
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> { It is { legal | illegal } to { { { throw at | give to | take from } {
> players | grid locations | <specific player> | <specific grid location> } {
> gremlins | beer cans | <specific MO> } } | { { enter | remain in | enter or
> remain in } <specific grid location> [ without bouncing Elbonia-style ] } } }.

So, what happens if I make an Insta-Rule saying "It is illegal to remain in
(12,12)? What happens to an occupant of (12,12)? Nowhere do the rules
provide for what happens if something that is happening becomes illegal...

I don't ask merely out of curiosity; It's come to my attention that despite
the Grid rule saying that no two players may occupy the same square, Rob and
Bean both seem to be sitting on (12,12)... So what happens now?

For that matter, what happens if an Insta-Rule contradicts another rule? For
example, if I declare "It is illegal to throw at Wonko gremlins", wouldn't
that have no effect, as another, lower-numbered rule states that players may
throw Gremlins at other players?

Also, what stops me from saying "It is legal to take from grid locations
Gremlins" and then taking all Gremlins from all grid locations? That is what
the rule would say...

--Wonko

"640K ought to be enough for anybody. "
    - Bill Gates (1955-), in 1981

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:48:34 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Ultra-Brief Recognizer...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> ... because I'll be working way too much this weekend.
> 
> Wild Card's gender change and Grid movement are queued.
> 
> "Champagne gets you drunk too!" is 568/0.
> "A fix for Wonko" is 569/0.
> "I rob from the rich!" is 570/0.
> 
> Bean's flight plan is still illegal for a football player. Since e's now
> also On Leave (voluntary), I'm simply ruling that e stays at the airport,
> once e moves at the end of the nweek (unless e comes Off Leave long enough
> to file a valid flight plan).
> 
> ...dave
> 
> 

I changed my vote on p561 to No... was that noticed?

--Wonko

No one ever says "It's only a game" when their team is winning.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:41:29 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>-What if a group simply seceded from the union inaccordance with a rule
> >they
> >made? Would a terrible civil war erupt, or would the game simply split in
> >two? Just curious.-
> >
> >                                         -BvS-
>
>What would we do?  Send email bombs to each other?
>
>Or write prose proposals detailing injuries we dealt?
>
>                                                 Glotmorf
>
>-It's like this book I read, where two planets were at war, and they did
>it all by computer- every day, certain people reported to disintigration
>chambers as casualties. We need disintigrators... Don't know why, but we 
>do.-

And my death propothal didn't path either.  I remember a Thar Trek epithode 
about that.... The Enterprithe wath told it wath a cathualty.... it wathn't 
a great epithode...  I'll thut up now.

Bean

-Hey, that's right... That's where I got it from. And I'm guessing Kirk 
rewrote the laws of both planets and slept with anything on two legs in the 
process. Or am I generalizing the show too much?-

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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:59:10 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The propothal I mithed
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:41 PM 2002-04-11 -0400, you wrote:
>-Hey, that's right... That's where I got it from. And I'm guessing Kirk 
>rewrote the laws of both planets and slept with anything on two legs in 
>the process. Or am I generalizing the show too much?-

Pretty clothe.  I think he blew up the computer and told them they'd have 
to live without it... thuth dithrupting their entire thociety.  Prime 
Directive my ath.  He prolly thlept with thomeone too.

Bean

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:12:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Ultra-Brief Recognizer...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Eric Gerlach wrote:

> Hate to be tho blunt, Dave, but I think it ith.  I'm at (12, 12).  I wanted
> to go to (18, 12).  That'th within theven.  I'm all legal, I've got my
> ticket and I'm buckling in.

Sorry. I think I confused your illegal flight plan with someone else's
illegal flight plan. Consider the statement retracted.

...dave

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:18:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Ultra-Brief Recognizer...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> I changed my vote on p561 to No... was that noticed?

Indeed it was.

>From my voting logs, which will only make sense to me:

Voice: 834
WC: 832,838
Wonko: 814,837
Bean: 841
(another nameless player): private

(My mail software conveniently numbers mails, in the order they're filed
into my "Nomic" folder. The above means that info on Wonko's votes was in
mails 814 and 837, in addition to the "piece of paper and an eraser" copy,
and the new-and-improved database. Hopefully, it's sufficient to ensure
nothing ill will happen to the votes.)

...dave

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: re: glotmorf
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:42:16 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Proposal 555/0: Repeal Rule 207 (The Voice)
Not quite yet.  And this isn't a haiku -- "rule two ze-ro sev-en" is six
syllables.

Actually, I was thinking -- "rule two oh sev-en".  That's how people would 
pronounce it around here...

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:22:42 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 12
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 --- "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]> wrote: >
The following measures are on the ballot for nweek
> 12:
> 
> Proposal 536/0: Stop the World! I Wanna Get Off!
> (Wonko)
YES
> Proposal 537/0: Bowling for Nomics! (The Voice)
YES
> Proposal 538/1: Mass Production (Wonko)
NO
> Proposal 539/1: Enter the Gnome (Wonko)
YES
> Proposal 540/0: See the world, they said (Wonko)
YES
> Proposal 541/1: The New Yeti (Wonko)
YES
> Proposal 542/0: Football Fixes (thylith thith time)
> (Bean)
YES
> Proposal 543/1: Mommy, I want off! (Bean)
NO
> Proposal 544/0: Sorry, no ERA this time. (Congenital
> Optimist)
NO
> Proposal 552/1: Omnibus Proposal (The Administrator)
NO
> Proposal 553/0: Societies (Wild Card)
YES
> Proposal 554/1: Where No Player Has Gone Before
> (Glotmorf)
YES
> Proposal 555/0: Repeal Rule 207 (The Voice)
YES
> Proposal 556/1: Gremlin Placers (The Voice)
YES
> Proposal 557/0: Proosal? (The Voice)
NO
> Proposal 558/2: Immunity Idol, v2.5 (The Voice)
YES
> Proposal 559/0: The Upper House (Wild Card)
YES
> Proposal 560/0: Fish-flavored Izing (Glotmorf)
NO
> Proposal 561/0: The Other End of the Entropy Axis
> (Glotmorf)
NO
> Proposal 562/1: Can we talk about this later, honey?
> (Bean)
YES
> Proposal 563/0: And It's Not 42 (Glotmorf)
NO, because it *is* 42...
> Proposal 564/0: Weather Gnomes (The Voice)
YES
> Proposal 565/0: What do a Gibbet and a Clothesline
> Have in Common?
YES
> 		(Glotmorf)
naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:49:09 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: This one should work.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I also suggest we try to work on establishing criteria 
> for how illegal events fail to happen rather than simply
> saying such-and-such game object "must" do
> something if it wants to exist.  Demanding a game
> object do something does not prevent non-compliant
> game objects from existing; you merely wind up with
> non-compliant game objects.  Claiming that
> non-compliance is equivalent to non-existence is
> getting back to the old argument that illegal acts don't
> occur, and that our temporary perception of an illegal
> act is simply a hallucination that has to be dispelled.
>
"Not back on it, Joe; still on it." Just because you still don't agree doesn't mean you're not still wrong. ;-)

Regardless of which, you're trying to make a general argument about non-compliant objects, which may not apply in this specific case. Specifically, 

Rule 293[/1 to /3] said: "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the Idol."
Rule 18 says: "Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by the Ruleset is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of Rule Changes, which are permitted only when a Rule or set of Rules explicitly or implicitly permits them. "
Now, r293/1 was *not* prohibiting rule-changes which create rules which create gremlins etc.. If it had been, then the rules in question would never have been created, as rule 32 (which, by r18, is what actually creates the rules a proosal creates) lacks the precedence to overrule it.
As it was, though, it was only regulating what those rules, once created, had to do. Since r293/1 had precedence, I would argue that the rules were created, but, as per that-CFJ-I-keep-referring-to-whose-number-I-think-is-254, the gremlins were not.

> I still maintain that the existence or nonexistence
> of rules should be determined solely by the
> proposal mechanism, and that the conflict
> resolution mechanism is sufficient.
>
I don't know who you are, or what you've done with Glotmorf, but - I agree with you. ;-)

(At least a little. I don't think the rules are there because "they were created by proposals that were voted in by the players" in some "inalienable right" sense - I think they're there because r293 wasn't worded correctly to stop the proosals that created them.)

uin.
-- 

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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:02:17 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 12
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

>> Proposal 538/1: Mass Production (Wonko)
> I too wish the SHELVED option was available.  This proposal would be a lot
> more meaningful if there was actually a way to get a Gnome Wet.
> 
> Abstain.

There is - Garth a Brook, use a sponge, or we can make some more if you
don't like that.

--Wonko

Never agree to plastic surgery if the doctor's office is full of portraits
by Picasso.

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: last-minute action 
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:02:47 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I drop a Big Rock at (16,9).
> 
 I was going to drop a rick too, but I appear to have 0 points :(.

 WC.

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:14:52 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: This one should work.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

>> I also suggest we try to work on establishing criteria
>> for how illegal events fail to happen rather than simply
>> saying such-and-such game object "must" do
>> something if it wants to exist.  Demanding a game
>> object do something does not prevent non-compliant
>> game objects from existing; you merely wind up with
>> non-compliant game objects.  Claiming that
>> non-compliance is equivalent to non-existence is
>> getting back to the old argument that illegal acts don't
>> occur, and that our temporary perception of an illegal
>> act is simply a hallucination that has to be dispelled.
>> 
> "Not back on it, Joe; still on it." Just because you still don't agree doesn't
> mean you're not still wrong. ;-)
> 
> Regardless of which, you're trying to make a general argument about
> non-compliant objects, which may not apply in this specific case.
> Specifically, 
> 
> Rule 293[/1 to /3] said: "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly
> affects players must also amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would
> affect the player with the Idol."
> Rule 18 says: "Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by the Ruleset is
> permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of Rule Changes, which are
> permitted only when a Rule or set of Rules explicitly or implicitly permits
> them. "
> Now, r293/1 was *not* prohibiting rule-changes which create rules which create
> gremlins etc.. If it had been, then the rules in question would never have
> been created, as rule 32 (which, by r18, is what actually creates the rules a
> proosal creates) lacks the precedence to overrule it.
> As it was, though, it was only regulating what those rules, once created, had
> to do. Since r293/1 had precedence, I would argue that the rules were created,
> but, as per that-CFJ-I-keep-referring-to-whose-number-I-think-is-254, the
> gremlins were not.
> 
>> I still maintain that the existence or nonexistence
>> of rules should be determined solely by the
>> proposal mechanism, and that the conflict
>> resolution mechanism is sufficient.
>> 
> I don't know who you are, or what you've done with Glotmorf, but - I agree
> with you. ;-)
> 
> (At least a little. I don't think the rules are there because "they were
> created by proposals that were voted in by the players" in some "inalienable
> right" sense - I think they're there because r293 wasn't worded correctly to
> stop the proosals that created them.)
> 
> uin.

Seems to me that rule 32 states

"If and only if the proposal passed, its actions (such as Rule Changes and
other changes to the state of the game) are put into effect in the order in
which they are described."

Now, perhaps rule 293 said "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly
affects players must also amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would
affect the player with the Idol." at the time, but 32 had a lower number,
and so took precedence over it.

Once the rules had been created, there was no conflict - 293 regulated what
a rule creating a Gremlin must do, but the rules were no longer 'creating'
Gremlins; the Gremlins had been created when the rules were.

So the sentence in 293 essentially did nothing, as rule 32 took precedence
over it and contradicted it.

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 23:51:46 -0400
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Ministries
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Most Esteemed Bean...

Your proposal currently reads,

"There exist titles defining Ministers of the form "Minister of X", where X=
 is a unique designator. These titles are known as Ministries [[ This is a=
 good enough defn for now ]]. A Ministry may only be assigned to a player=
 as expicitly allowed by the rules. Only one player may hold any given=
 Ministry at any given time, and a player may only hold one Ministry at any=
 given time."

I'm not sure I completely agree with the last sentence of that.  Some=
 ministries may prove extremely simple to perform, especially at the same=
 time as certain other ministries.  It may be feasible, and even=
 expeditious, for players to hold multiple ministries under certain=
 circumstances.

I've a suggestion: For a candidate to be elected to a ministry, require him=
 to receive, not only a majority of the votes cast, but at least=
 (N+1)/(N+2) of all the votes cast, where N is the number of ministries he=
 currently holds.

Also, regarding,

"A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal."

Given that the failure to perform duties may occur at the beginning of the=
 nweek, and the proposal will only be acted upon at the end of the nweek,=
 should there be some sort of action accompanying the proposal that=
 suspends the minister from his duties until the issue is resolved?  Just=
 to get whatever he's supposed to be handling handled in the meantime?

On another note, is electing ministers something we want a quorum for?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:10:30 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Ministries
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> Most Esteemed Bean...
> 
> Your proposal currently reads,
> 
> "There exist titles defining Ministers of the form "Minister of X", where X is
> a unique designator. These titles are known as Ministries [[ This is a good
> enough defn for now ]]. A Ministry may only be assigned to a player as
> expicitly allowed by the rules. Only one player may hold any given Ministry at
> any given time, and a player may only hold one Ministry at any given time."
> 
> I'm not sure I completely agree with the last sentence of that.  Some
> ministries may prove extremely simple to perform, especially at the same time
> as certain other ministries.  It may be feasible, and even expeditious, for
> players to hold multiple ministries under certain circumstances.
> 
> I've a suggestion: For a candidate to be elected to a ministry, require him to
> receive, not only a majority of the votes cast, but at least (N+1)/(N+2) of
> all the votes cast, where N is the number of ministries he currently holds.

For that matter, what's wrong with having two people acting as Co-Ministers,
if something really nasty needs to be Ministerialized?

> Also, regarding,
> 
> "A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal."
> 
> Given that the failure to perform duties may occur at the beginning of the
> nweek, and the proposal will only be acted upon at the end of the nweek,
> should there be some sort of action accompanying the proposal that suspends
> the minister from his duties until the issue is resolved?  Just to get
> whatever he's supposed to be handling handled in the meantime?

If e's failing to perform eir duties, why suspend em? "You're not doing what
you should. So I order you not to do what you should!"

Also, does this mean that we could SHELVE a Vote of Non-Confidence? Or the
admin could Veto it?

> On another note, is electing ministers something we want a quorum for?

Quorum like what? You mean, at least 2/3 of all players must vote, that sort
of thing? 'Cause if we do, we might have trouble getting ministers if a few
people go On Leave...

> Glotmorf

One thing I'd like to see in this proposal is something along the lines of
"If a player is a Candidate to be a Minister, e may refuse eir nomination,
in which case e ceases to be a Candidate"

Right now we could force people into Ministries they don't really want.
Unwanted ministries would be bad.

--Wonko

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
- Salvador Dali

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:25:56 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Ministries
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/13/02 at 12:10 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Donald Whytock,
>
>> Also, regarding,
>> 
>> "A Vote of Non-Confidence is a proposal."
>> 
>> Given that the failure to perform duties may occur at the beginning of
>the
>> nweek, and the proposal will only be acted upon at the end of the nweek,
>> should there be some sort of action accompanying the proposal that
>suspends
>> the minister from his duties until the issue is resolved?  Just to get
>> whatever he's supposed to be handling handled in the meantime?
>
>If e's failing to perform eir duties, why suspend em? "You're not doing
>what
>you should. So I order you not to do what you should!"

Failing to perform duties isn't necessarily just not doing anything.  I'd=
 also read it as failing to perform them correctly -- that is, if they're=
 not getting done right, they're not getting done.  If they're being done=
 wrong, I'd rather they not be done at all.

>Also, does this mean that we could SHELVE a Vote of Non-Confidence? Or the
>admin could Veto it?

Yes to both.  The Admin may know of a good reason a minister isn't=
 performing in a timely manner, and/or the players as a whole (as opposed=
 to whoever posted the proposal) may be willing to give the minister the=
 rest of a nweek to get going again.  But not two nweeks.

>> On another note, is electing ministers something we want a quorum for?
>
>Quorum like what? You mean, at least 2/3 of all players must vote, that
>sort
>of thing? 'Cause if we do, we might have trouble getting ministers if a=
 few
>people go On Leave...
>
>One thing I'd like to see in this proposal is something along the lines of
>"If a player is a Candidate to be a Minister, e may refuse eir nomination,
>in which case e ceases to be a Candidate"
>
>Right now we could force people into Ministries they don't really want.
>Unwanted ministries would be bad.

So might a non-respresentative minority electing a minister courtesy of=
 everyone's indifference to or absence from the election.  Better that it=
 take a while for people to agree to a good minister than for one guy and=
 some cohorts electing himself to be a bad one.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:27:17 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Nweek 13 Straw Poll
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

There are several little things I'd like to clean up at this point, but I'd=
 rather not use up all my proposals doing so.  Please give me your opinion=
 of which of these, if any, would prevent you from voting for a proposal=
 that included all of them:

1.) R547: "If a Gremlin has the Attribute "Dead", it is considered to be in=
 Hiding." Add to this: "This takes precedence over the rule that created=
 and/or defined the "dead" Gremlin."

2.) R548: "If a Sheep Gnome lands on a square occuppied by an impassable=
 object, it is destroyed and the square it landed on, each square=
 consective to that square, and all objects and entities in those squares=
 gain the attribute Wet."  Replace "it is destroyed" with "then the sheep=
 is destroyed,".  Also, take a "p" out of "occuppied".

3.) R503: Remove the keyword "Gremlin".  There's nothing in R503 that says=
 anything about gremlins.

4.) Make SHELVED proposals only count as half a proposal against the=
 proposer's bandwidth limit in the following nweek.

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:32:30 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Nweek 13 Straw Poll
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/13/02 at 12:27 AM Glotmorf wrote:

>There are several little things I'd like to clean up at this point, but
>I'd rather not use up all my proposals doing so.  Please give me your
>opinion of which of these, if any, would prevent you from voting for a
>proposal that included all of them:

*grumble* Hit the SEND button instead of the SAVE button.  There will be=
 some more little things, I suspect, pending this nweek's vote results.

					Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:51:41 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: The Straw Poll and Babelization
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

My Fish-Flavored Izing proposal contains:

"The 'Babelized' attribute expires six nweeks after the most recent=
 instance of a Player receiving the Sushi, whether given forcefully or=
 taken voluntarily."

Wonko's right...this is a bit long.  I must have miscalculated, thinking=
 two sushi periods in a nweek, when in fact it's two and a half.

If the Izing proposal passes, I'll make this change (which I'll add to the=
 Straw Poll):

"A Player's 'Babelized' attribute expires N nweeks after the most recent=
 instance of em receiving the Sushi, whether given forcefully or taken=
 voluntarily, where N is (# of players)/3, rounded down, with a minimum of=
 1."

That should take care of things unless there's only three or four players=
 left, and I suspect by that time things will have changed substantially=
 anyway.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:38:17 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: The Straw Poll and Babelization
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> My Fish-Flavored Izing proposal contains:
> 
> "The 'Babelized' attribute expires six nweeks after the most recent instance
> of a Player receiving the Sushi, whether given forcefully or taken
> voluntarily."
> 
> Wonko's right...this is a bit long.  I must have miscalculated, thinking two
> sushi periods in a nweek, when in fact it's two and a half.
> 
> If the Izing proposal passes, I'll make this change (which I'll add to the
> Straw Poll):
> 
> "A Player's 'Babelized' attribute expires N nweeks after the most recent
> instance of em receiving the Sushi, whether given forcefully or taken
> voluntarily, where N is (# of players)/3, rounded down, with a minimum of 1."
> 
> That should take care of things unless there's only three or four players
> left, and I suspect by that time things will have changed substantially
> anyway.
> 
> Glotmorf

Does this mean if they get it on nday 4 of an nweek, they lose it on nday 4
of the appropriate nweek? Or they lose it after N complete nweeks have
passed?

--Wonko

"640K ought to be enough for anybody. "
    - Bill Gates (1955-), in 1981

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:40:17 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Flight plans
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Do we actually need to 'file' flight plans? I thought flight happened
instantaneously, not at the end of the nweek...

--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:50:10 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: The Straw Poll and Babelization
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/13/02 at 10:38 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> My Fish-Flavored Izing proposal contains:
>> 
>> "The 'Babelized' attribute expires six nweeks after the most recent
>instance
>> of a Player receiving the Sushi, whether given forcefully or taken
>> voluntarily."
>> 
>> Wonko's right...this is a bit long.  I must have miscalculated, thinking
>two
>> sushi periods in a nweek, when in fact it's two and a half.
>> 
>> If the Izing proposal passes, I'll make this change (which I'll add to
>the
>> Straw Poll):
>> 
>> "A Player's 'Babelized' attribute expires N nweeks after the most recent
>> instance of em receiving the Sushi, whether given forcefully or taken
>> voluntarily, where N is (# of players)/3, rounded down, with a minimum
>of 1."
>> 
>> That should take care of things unless there's only three or four=
 players
>> left, and I suspect by that time things will have changed substantially
>> anyway.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>Does this mean if they get it on nday 4 of an nweek, they lose it on nday=
 4
>of the appropriate nweek? Or they lose it after N complete nweeks have
>passed?
>
>--Wonko

They lose it on nday 4 of the appropriate nweek.  Otherwise I'd've said=
 something like, "At the beginning of the Nth nweek after a given Player=
 becomes Babelized, where N is..."

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:57:39 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Insta-Rules
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/11/02 at 10:36 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> { It is { legal | illegal } to { { { throw at | give to | take from } {
>> players | grid locations | <specific player> | <specific grid location>
>} {
>> gremlins | beer cans | <specific MO> } } | { { enter | remain in | enter
>or
>> remain in } <specific grid location> [ without bouncing Elbonia-style ]
>} } }.
>
>So, what happens if I make an Insta-Rule saying "It is illegal to remain=
 in
>(12,12)? What happens to an occupant of (12,12)? Nowhere do the rules
>provide for what happens if something that is happening becomes illegal...
>
>I don't ask merely out of curiosity; It's come to my attention that=
 despite
>the Grid rule saying that no two players may occupy the same square, Rob
>and
>Bean both seem to be sitting on (12,12)... So what happens now?
>
>For that matter, what happens if an Insta-Rule contradicts another rule?
>For
>example, if I declare "It is illegal to throw at Wonko gremlins", wouldn't
>that have no effect, as another, lower-numbered rule states that players
>may
>throw Gremlins at other players?
>
>Also, what stops me from saying "It is legal to take from grid locations
>Gremlins" and then taking all Gremlins from all grid locations? That is
>what
>the rule would say...
>
>--Wonko

The bulk of these issues can be solved by the apporporiate chutzpah=
 ratings.  I suspect chutzpah ratings will be regularly adjusted in the=
 future, especially since "chutz." is a comprehensible abbreviation.=
 (Another candidate for the Straw Poll?)

The purpose of the "it is legal" form is to be paired with the "it is=
 illegal" form to make such things as, "It is illegal to throw at players=
 gremlins", followed by "It is legal to throw at Bean gremlins".  That=
 sorta thang. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:59:32 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Flight plans
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/13/02 at 10:40 AM Wonko wrote:

>Do we actually need to 'file' flight plans? I thought flight happened
>instantaneously, not at the end of the nweek...
>
>--Wonko

It happens at the end of the nweek if it happens after a move, like mine is=
 going to be.  Otherwise, shortly before Rob got shot, e could have flown=
 any time e wanted to.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:01:05 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/13/02 at 11:57 AM Naath Thabana wrote:

>{{
>_if we sqeeze up a bit we can all fit in_
>
>Remove the sentence
>"Multiple Players may not occupy the same unit at the
>same time." 
>
>From paragraph 2 of rule 301 and replace with
>
>"If a player is not holiding a gremlin then another
>player (also not holding a gremlin) may occupy the
>same unit at the same time as em.  If a player is
>holding a gremlin then no other player can occupy the
>same unit as em at the same time"
>[[
>"Just move over a bit there..."
>"Breathe in a little would you?"
>"See, we can both fit here."
>"Well, fit yes, fit in comfort no."
>]]
>}}
>
>naath

Do we really want multiple players occupying squares?  What with Big Rocks=
 and all, that'll eventually have us all squeezed into three squares...

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 01:50:43 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Proposal 541/1 (The New Yeti) (Wonko):
> AFF: Bean, Congenital Optimist, Glotmorf, Naath, The Voice, Wild Card, Wonko
> Counts: (7-0-0-0). Measure passes.
> Measure is vetoed by the Administrator ("Yeah, I know! The Admin hates the
> Yeti, so I'll make it even MORE of a pain in the ass!" -- Wonko).
> The Veto is purely symbolic, as the measure received more than a 3/4
> majority, but I wanted to go on record as saying this idea sucks even more
> than the old yeti...
> Created 348/2.
> Wonko scores 8 points.

Oops...:(

See, I {and, I believe, a number of other players) were under the impression
that this would be *easier* for you than the old Yeti. I thought the problem
was the you had to keep calculating a random move, then checking to see if
that move was legal, then going back and calculating again, etc. So I made
the new one with the intention of lessening the burden upon you. So if
that's not the problem, then what IS the problem with the Yeti?

--Wonko

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 02:00:06 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> The damn Yeti is randomly relocated per the new, more onerous rule. Right
> now, the Grid just says "All squares within 2 of here are Frozen" because
> I don't really feel like updating all 24 of 'em.

Wait a minute... 24!? "All squares within two squares" can't possibly be
more than 16... I count 12... Where's 24 coming from?

It's measured Euclideanly, remember?

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 03:12:39 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 3:12 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Proposal 560/0 (Fish-flavored Izing) (Glotmorf):
>AFF: Congenital Optimist, Glotmorf, Wild Card
>NEG: Bean, Naath, The Voice, Wonko
>Counts: (3-4-0-0). Measure fails.
>Glotmorf loses 3 points.

See...now I have a problem since I can't make proposals with words longer=
 than two syllables, so I can't create a "babelized" attribute no matter=
 how well the rest of the rule is structured.  If it could have been made=
 last nweek, the bugs could have been cleaned up this nweek fairly=
 easily...Now I'll have to come up with something short and cute.  Wah.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 12:07:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> Wait a minute... 24!? "All squares within two squares" can't possibly be
> more than 16... I count 12... Where's 24 coming from?

I did the quick hasty "in my head" calculation, where you get (use a
monospace font):

.....
.....
..*..
.....
.....

(or, everything in radius 2)

It's not at all accurate, really.

My problem with the Yeti is that it involves updating a LOT of individual
squares. (See, the system I have now only lets me edit one square at a
time.) Eight of 'em was bad enough, but 12 or 16 or 24 or however many
there are is more than eight.

...dave

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposal
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > Do we really want multiple players occupying
> squares?  What with Big Rocks and all, that'll
> eventually have us all squeezed into three
> squares...
ppl seem fond of trying to occupy the same space as
other ppl.  Also it would allow tackles to actually
be, well, tackles...

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
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Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:36:43 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> {{
> __The Newer Yeti__
> 
> In rule three forty eight, replace the second and third sent. with:
> 
> "At the start of the 1st and 6th ndays of each nweek, the Yeti moves to
> a random square which is not more than 8 units from the square e is in.
> When the Yeti enters a square, each square with the same y value as that
> square become Frozen."
> }}
> 
> --Wonko
> 

Would this be better? Then you could just mark at the bottom of the row,
"All squares in this column are frozen."

--Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:38:39 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Wait a minute... 24!? "All squares within two squares" can't possibly be
>> more than 16... I count 12... Where's 24 coming from?
> 
> I did the quick hasty "in my head" calculation, where you get (use a
> monospace font):
> 
> .....
> .....
> ..*..
> .....
> .....
> 
> (or, everything in radius 2)
> 
> It's not at all accurate, really.
> 
> My problem with the Yeti is that it involves updating a LOT of individual
> squares. (See, the system I have now only lets me edit one square at a
> time.) Eight of 'em was bad enough, but 12 or 16 or 24 or however many
> there are is more than eight.

I think it would look more like this:

    .  
  . . . 
. . * . .
  . . . 
    .  

But I'll try to fix it to be easier

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:41:32 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Easing Ent. Rule
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _I Ain't Dr. Seuss_
> 
> Amend Rule Four Hundred Forty as follows:
> 
> Insert into the last para. after the fourth word in the last sentence the text
> "defined in the game rules".
> 
> Add to the end of the last para. this text:
> 
> "Also exempt are: numbers, typing symbols, quotes from current rules or other
> public forum msgs., and comments."
> 
> [[ I really didn't want to add that last one, but hey, I'm not Dr. Seuss, and
> if I didn't want the DimShip Saga to end with Chapter 6, I had to do
> something. ]]
> 
> }}

You might also want to find a way to include abbreviations... How does one
pronounce "msgs."? Wouldn't you say "Messages", meaning it has 3 syllables?

--Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:43:24 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 7. Remove the sentence "Multiple Players may not
> occupy the same unit at
> the same time." from Rule 301.
oy! I just made a proposal to do that.

*sulk*

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:49:59 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 --- Naath Thabana <[email-masked]> wrote: > 
> 
> > 7. Remove the sentence "Multiple Players may not
> > occupy the same unit at
> > the same time." from Rule 301.
> oy! I just made a proposal to do that.
> 
> *sulk*

seriously... what would happen if both passed??

naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:51:54 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 12 results and stuff
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Naath Thabana,

> --- Naath Thabana <[email-masked]> wrote: >
>>=20
>>> 7. Remove the sentence "Multiple Players may not
>>> occupy the same unit at
>>> the same time." from Rule 301.
>> oy! I just made a proposal to do that.
>>=20
>> *sulk*
>=20
> seriously... what would happen if both passed??
>=20

One would do nothing =AD it'd try to remove the sentence and fail, because th=
e
sentence wasn't there.

--Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:54:15 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Easing Ent. Rule
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Glotmorf,
> 
>> {{ _I Ain't Dr. Seuss_
>> 
>> Amend Rule Four Hundred Forty as follows:
>> 
>> Insert into the last para. after the fourth word in the last sentence the
>> text
>> "defined in the game rules".
>> 
>> Add to the end of the last para. this text:
>> 
>> "Also exempt are: numbers, typing symbols, quotes from current rules or other
>> public forum msgs., and comments."
>> 
>> [[ I really didn't want to add that last one, but hey, I'm not Dr. Seuss, and
>> if I didn't want the DimShip Saga to end with Chapter 6, I had to do
>> something. ]]
>> 
>> }}
> 
> You might also want to find a way to include abbreviations... How does one
> pronounce "msgs."? Wouldn't you say "Messages", meaning it has 3 syllables?
> 
> --Wonko
> 
Oh... Whoops. It's in the rule. Sorry.

--Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 12:52:38 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Easing Ent. Rule
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 12:14 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
>
>> {{ _I Ain't Dr. Seuss_
>
>Recognized as 583/0.
>
>And you're not alone in your suffering -- The Voice and Wonko are also
>past the two-syllable barrier.
>
>(I had a feeling those limits were a bit low... while Universal Entropy is
>only at 199.5, three players are now at the two-syllable limit, and
>chances are, next nweek, at least one of you will be past the one-syllable
>limit - currently 28.84.)
>
>...dave

Oh, I can handle it at the proposal level...might actually be fun,=
 especially coming up with creative workarounds. :)  But I find I get a=
 kick out of writing the story series.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 12:54:06 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 10:36 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Wonko,
>
>> {{
>> __The Newer Yeti__
>> 
>> In rule three forty eight, replace the second and third sent. with:
>> 
>> "At the start of the 1st and 6th ndays of each nweek, the Yeti moves to
>> a random square which is not more than 8 units from the square e is in.
>> When the Yeti enters a square, each square with the same y value as that
>> square become Frozen."
>> }}
>> 
>> --Wonko
>> 
>
>Would this be better? Then you could just mark at the bottom of the row,
>"All squares in this column are frozen."
>
>--Wonko

As in...20 frozen squares per nweek?  Ain't that, like, a lot?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 13:04:17 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Straw Poll time...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Okay...all those little things I'd like to put in one proposal...Please=
 tell me if you'd object to any of it and why:

1.) Quote from Rule Five Hundred Forty Seven: "If a Gremlin has the=
 Attribute "Dead", it is considered to be in Hiding." Add at the end:=
 "Rules that made and/or defined the "dead" Gremlin defer to this rule."

2.) Quote from Rule Five Hundred Forty Eight: "If a Sheep Gnome lands on a=
 square occuppied by an impassable object, it is destroyed and the square=
 it landed on, each square consective to that square, and all objects and=
 entities in those squares gain the attribute Wet."  Replace "it is=
 destroyed" with "then the sheep is destroyed,".  Also, take a "p" out of=
 "occuppied".

3.) Rule Five Hundred Three: Remove the keyword "Gremlin".  [[There's=
 nothing in the rule that mentions gremlins.]]

4.) Rule Five Hundred Eighty: Add to the end of the last sentence of the=
 first para. the text: ", but only counts as half a prop. against the=
 bandwidth limit".

5.) Rule Five-Seven-Eight: Add to the end of the first sentence the text:=
 ", also known as Clubs".

6.) Rule Five Hundred Fifty: Add to the end of the first sentence the text:=
 ", also known as Swabs".

7:) Rule Three Hundred Ninety Four: Add to the end of the first sentence of=
 para. A.2 the text: ", also known as The Ball".

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:23:17 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

 > {{
 > __The Newer Yeti__
 >
 > In rule three forty eight, replace the second and third sent. with:
 >
 > "At the start of the 1st and 6th ndays of each nweek, the Yeti moves to
 > a random square which is not more than 8 units from the square e is in.
 > When the Yeti enters a square, each square with the same y value as that
 > square become Frozen."
 > }}
 >
 > --Wonko
 >

Would this be better? Then you could just mark at the bottom of the row,
"All squares in this column are frozen."

--Wonko

-Little detail: y=whatever is a horizontal row, and then people could step 
on that row and score a touchdown in one nweek. Do we want that?-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Easing Ent. Rule
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:24:51 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

 > {{ _I Ain't Dr. Seuss_
 >
 > Amend Rule Four Hundred Forty as follows:
 >
 > Insert into the last para. after the fourth word in the last sentence the 
text
 > "defined in the game rules".
 >
 > Add to the end of the last para. this text:
 >
 > "Also exempt are: numbers, typing symbols, quotes from current rules or 
other
 > public forum msgs., and comments."
 >
 > [[ I really didn't want to add that last one, but hey, I'm not Dr. Seuss, 
and
 > if I didn't want the DimShip Saga to end with Chapter 6, I had to do
 > something. ]]
 >
 > }}

You might also want to find a way to include abbreviations... How does one
pronounce "msgs."? Wouldn't you say "Messages", meaning it has 3 syllables?

-Mis-gis, I think. Two syllables.-

--Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:47:48 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/14/02 at 10:36 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Wonko,
>> 
>>> {{
>>> __The Newer Yeti__
>>> 
>>> In rule three forty eight, replace the second and third sent. with:
>>> 
>>> "At the start of the 1st and 6th ndays of each nweek, the Yeti moves to
>>> a random square which is not more than 8 units from the square e is in.
>>> When the Yeti enters a square, each square with the same y value as that
>>> square become Frozen."
>>> }}
>>> 
>>> --Wonko
>>> 
>> 
>> Would this be better? Then you could just mark at the bottom of the row,
>> "All squares in this column are frozen."
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> As in...20 frozen squares per nweek?  Ain't that, like, a lot?
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

Well, the idea was that Captain A. could just mark at the bottom of the
column, "This column is frozen". Or, alternately, now it would be really
easy to write a little bit of code that turns a single column to Frozen.
Either way, it's easier that right now....

Although I'd think it wouldn't be too hard to write a code to fill a circle
of radius 2 w/ Ice, but that's apparently not an option, so maybe I'm
missing something... But there must be SOME way to make the Yeti work in
2-syllable words!

--
Wonko
turned off all eir signatures 'cause they all have 3-syllable words.

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:48:46 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> Quoth Wonko,
> 
>> {{
>> __The Newer Yeti__
>> 
>> In rule three forty eight, replace the second and third sent. with:
>> 
>> "At the start of the 1st and 6th ndays of each nweek, the Yeti moves to
>> a random square which is not more than 8 units from the square e is in.
>> When the Yeti enters a square, each square with the same y value as that
>> square become Frozen."
>> }}
>> 
>> --Wonko
>> 
> 
> Would this be better? Then you could just mark at the bottom of the row,
> "All squares in this column are frozen."
> 
> --Wonko
> 
> -Little detail: y=whatever is a horizontal row, and then people could step
> on that row and score a touchdown in one nweek. Do we want that?-

That was actually supposed to be 'x'. I'll fix it.

--
Wonko

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: A statement stating a desire to play.
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:19:31 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play. 
 After having agreed to obey the rules, and being 
indestinguishable from a human, I...  Er...  State that I 
do so desire to join you.

After such an introductory paragraph that says next to 
nothing, I believe I should introduce myself.  I am to be 
known as Yuki, and female.  I am an artist, and my full 
name would be Aino Yuki, Yuki No Hime.

However, I know not what else you could possibly want from 
me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a Turing 
test.

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:24:00 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A statement stating a desire to play.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Snow Hart,

> As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play.
> After having agreed to obey the rules, and being
> indestinguishable from a human, I...  Er...  State that I
> do so desire to join you.
> 
> After such an introductory paragraph that says next to
> nothing, I believe I should introduce myself.  I am to be
> known as Yuki, and female.  I am an artist, and my full
> name would be Aino Yuki, Yuki No Hime.
> 
> However, I know not what else you could possibly want from
> me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a Turing
> test.
> 
> ^_~--Yuki
> _____________________________
> For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
> please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>
> 

Glad to have a new player, but this has to be sent to the business list.

Welcome aboard!

-- 
Wonko

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A statement stating a desire to play.
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:26:30 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Sayeth Wonko:
>Glad to have a new player, but this has to be sent to the 
>business list.
>
>Welcome aboard!
>
>-- 
>Wonko
>

D'oh.  I'm such a klutz, and it's getting late.  Now to do 
the "blonde" thing and copy-paste that whole message.  And 
to imagine, I'm not even blonde.

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:30:06 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 10:47 PM Wonko wrote:

>Well, the idea was that Captain A. could just mark at the bottom of the
>column, "This column is frozen". Or, alternately, now it would be really
>easy to write a little bit of code that turns a single column to Frozen.
>Either way, it's easier that right now....
>
>Although I'd think it wouldn't be too hard to write a code to fill a=
 circle
>of radius 2 w/ Ice, but that's apparently not an option, so maybe I'm
>missing something... But there must be SOME way to make the Yeti work in
>2-syllable words!
>
>--
>Wonko
>turned off all eir signatures 'cause they all have 3-syllable words.

What exactly do you want the Yeti to do?

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A statement stating a desire to play.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:34:39 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play.
After having agreed to obey the rules, and being
indestinguishable from a human, I...  Er...  State that I
do so desire to join you.

After such an introductory paragraph that says next to
nothing, I believe I should introduce myself.  I am to be
known as Yuki, and female.  I am an artist, and my full
name would be Aino Yuki, Yuki No Hime.

However, I know not what else you could possibly want from
me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a Turing
test.
-Oh, nothing, but you have to send this to spoon-business, I believe. Oh, 
and folks? The personal entropy things just dropped...-

^_~--Yuki

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:37:05 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: A statement stating a desire to play.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 11:34 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>-Oh, nothing, but you have to send this to spoon-business, I believe. Oh, 
>and folks? The personal entropy things just dropped...-

I've noticed.  This is gonna be three flavors of fun...:)

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:40:55 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/14/02 at 10:47 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Well, the idea was that Captain A. could just mark at the bottom of the
>> column, "This column is frozen". Or, alternately, now it would be really
>> easy to write a little bit of code that turns a single column to Frozen.
>> Either way, it's easier that right now....
>> 
>> Although I'd think it wouldn't be too hard to write a code to fill a circle
>> of radius 2 w/ Ice, but that's apparently not an option, so maybe I'm
>> missing something... But there must be SOME way to make the Yeti work in
>> 2-syllable words!
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko
>> turned off all eir signatures 'cause they all have 3-syllable words.
> 
> What exactly do you want the Yeti to do?
> 
> Glotmorf

Freeze a bunch of squares... Now that I think about it... I suppose it's
kind of dumb to want something that freezes a lot of squares without forcing
the admin to mark a bunch of squares as Frozen...

Still, if there's any pattern of Freezing that would make it easy to freeze
large numbers, I wish someone could tell me what it is...

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:46:14 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Snow Hart,

> As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play.
> After having agreed to obey the rules, and being
> indestinguishable from a human, I... Er... State that I do
> so desire to join you.
> 
> After such an introductory paragraph that says next to
> nothing, I believe I should introduce myself. I am to be
> known as Yuki, and female. I am an artist, and my full
> name would be Aino Yuki, Yuki No Hime.
> 
> However, I know not what else you could possibly want from
> me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a Turing
> test.
> 
> ^_~--Yuki

(500/14)/2 = 17.857...

Glotmorf, Voice, and I are still in the 2syll zone... but Bean, at 17.5,
just got storytelling clearance.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:45:26 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 11:40 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> What exactly do you want the Yeti to do?
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>Freeze a bunch of squares... Now that I think about it... I suppose it's
>kind of dumb to want something that freezes a lot of squares without
>forcing
>the admin to mark a bunch of squares as Frozen...
>
>Still, if there's any pattern of Freezing that would make it easy to=
 freeze
>large numbers, I wish someone could tell me what it is...
>
>-- 
>Wonko

The pattern isn't the answer.  The problem is that, as I understand it, Mr.=
 A's current mechanism for updating squares is manual database item=
 changes.  Something form-based might make things easier, but would have to=
 be coded...

What about a Minister of Ad-Hoc Coding?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:51:06 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/14/02 at 11:40 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> What exactly do you want the Yeti to do?
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> Freeze a bunch of squares... Now that I think about it... I suppose it's
>> kind of dumb to want something that freezes a lot of squares without
>> forcing
>> the admin to mark a bunch of squares as Frozen...
>> 
>> Still, if there's any pattern of Freezing that would make it easy to freeze
>> large numbers, I wish someone could tell me what it is...
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko
> 
> The pattern isn't the answer.  The problem is that, as I understand it, Mr.
> A's current mechanism for updating squares is manual database item changes.
> Something form-based might make things easier, but would have to be coded...
> 
> What about a Minister of Ad-Hoc Coding?
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

What's a good abbr. for "Minister"? And why do all the important things have
many syllables?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:56:18 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a
	desire to play.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Snow Hart,
> 
>> As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play.
>> After having agreed to obey the rules, and being
>> indestinguishable from a human, I... Er... State that I do
>> so desire to join you.
>> 
>> After such an introductory paragraph that says next to
>> nothing, I believe I should introduce myself. I am to be
>> known as Yuki, and female. I am an artist, and my full
>> name would be Aino Yuki, Yuki No Hime.
>> 
>> However, I know not what else you could possibly want from
>> me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a Turing
>> test.
>> 
>> ^_~--Yuki
> 
> (500/14)/2 = 17.857...
> 
> Glotmorf, Voice, and I are still in the 2syll zone... but Bean, at 17.5,
> just got storytelling clearance.

Say, if someone got in the double syll zone and got the Sushi, wouldn't they
be almost completely incapacitated? If they don't sushi, it's illegal bcs
it's unsushiied. If they do, then it's illegal bcs there will almost
certainly be words of 3 or more syllables, put in by the translators...
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:12:04 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/14/02 at 11:51 PM Wonko wrote:

>What's a good abbr. for "Minister"? And why do all the important things
>have
>many syllables?
>-- 
>Wonko

The thing is, what you don't see is that there are good small words to say=
 what we need to say.  The big words we have now are merged small=
 words...just as it takes small thoughts to make big thoughts.  We use big=
 words now since the big words are there, but the small words are there=
 too.  So we can, it seems, use small words to say the same things as big=
 words; it just takes time.  And space.

That's why there are big words for the big thoughts...it saves space to use=
 one big word vs. a bunch of small words.  As for "minister" (quote from=
 prop.), I guess one could use Guy in Charge...Want that in the Straw Poll?=
 :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:47:16 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 11:45:26PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> What about a Minister of Ad-Hoc Coding?

I think that what we need in general is a Minister of the Grid. But the
code would have to come first...

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:48:59 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:12:04AM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> That's why there are big words for the big thoughts...it saves space to use one big word vs. a bunch of small words.  As for "minister" (quote from prop.), I guess one could use Guy in Charge...Want that in the Straw Poll? :)

Right. And why abbreviate "proposal"? You can say "proposed thing".
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:49:22 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti Reform
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/15/02 at 12:48 AM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:12:04AM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
>> That's why there are big words for the big thoughts...it saves space to
>use one big word vs. a bunch of small words.  As for "minister" (quote
>from prop.), I guess one could use Guy in Charge...Want that in the Straw
>Poll? :)
>
>Right. And why abbreviate "proposal"? You can say "proposed thing".
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Because we'll eventually be down to one syllable.  Did you notice that=
 entire message was one-syllable words?

						'Morf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play. 
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:35:57 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play. 
>  After having agreed to obey the rules, and being 
> indestinguishable from a human, I... Er... State that I do 
> so desire to join you. 
 
 'lo
> However, I know not what else you could possibly want from 
> me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a Turing 
> test.
> 
 You sure? :)

 OTOH I haven't seen anyone turing tested here, so...

 WC.

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Upper Hice
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:37:33 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 Are there any objections to the version of the Upper House proposal I
tried to change it too at the ed of last nweek?

 WC.

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:08:03 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: 502/0
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

A note to the Admin -

Rule 502 says 
"The last two paragraphs of this rule delete themselves at the end of nweek
11.

For the purpose of claiming a free alcoholic beverage nweek 11 is considered
to be the first nweek of the year. [[Better late than never!]] "

So it ought to look different right now.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:15:06 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip Purchase
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> I purchase a DimShip, and name it the same as the last word in the title of
> prop. five hundred twenty-eight.
> 
> I'll launch it at the end of this nweek.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
It seems to me that DimShips are really useless right now... The rule
doesn't provide any method of setting what Buoyancy and Ballast are.

It also doesn't say what "launched" means in the context of a DimShip.

And it doesn't explain what it means by "displaced" from eir current
location - does that mean you move to your new location, then get displaced
from there to a new location, etc.?

If so, DimShips could cause some problems...
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:31:12 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: DimShip Purchase
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/15/02 at 10:15 AM Wonko wrote:

>It seems to me that DimShips are really useless right now... The rule
>doesn't provide any method of setting what Buoyancy and Ballast are.
>
>It also doesn't say what "launched" means in the context of a DimShip.
>
>And it doesn't explain what it means by "displaced" from eir current
>location - does that mean you move to your new location, then get=
 displaced
>from there to a new location, etc.?
>
>If so, DimShips could cause some problems...
>-- 
>Wonko

Since R493 says that Buoyancy and Ballast "can" be set, that means the=
 setting of them is not prohibited; if you say there is no "method" of=
 setting them, that means the setting of them is not regulated.  Therefore,=
 R18 suggests I can simply declare them to whatever values I want.

You ask if "displaced" means the player moves to his new location; R493=
 specifically says the player doesn't travel to a new location.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:37:55 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/15/02 at 10:32 AM Glotmorf wrote:

>On 4/15/02 at 10:22 AM Wonko wrote:
>
>>Well, rule four hundred ninety three says that Buoy. and Ballast can each
>>be
>>set to as much as one hundred, so: Either that makes it legal for me to=
 do
>>that which I am about to do; Or it is not legal for Glotmorf to set those
>>same aspects of eir ship...
>>
>>I set Glotmorf's Dimship's values to: fifty Buoy. in Entrop., one hundred
>>Ballast in score.
>>
>>-- 
>>Wonko
>
>Heh.  Fine.  I change my Dim Ship buoy. to 0.
>
>We can do this back and forth as much as we want...
>
>						'Morf

...And now I change my Ballast to 0 too.

Wonko's first para. has a problem: those aren't the sole options in that=
 either-or statement.  It could be that Wonko can't change my DimShip's=
 values because it's mine; that's more likely than that I can't change my=
 own.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:52:50 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Color Commentary
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

And the football game is really heating up, as The Voice is now three
squares away from the endzone with, really, nothing to stop him! Except
for Luigi standing there looking menacing. It's not looking good for
Team Turquoise. In fact, I would have been a cheap bastard and joined
Team Crimson already if I hadn't gotten stuck as the Color Commentator.

[[Entirely unrelated: Mr. A, the Yeti's marked twice on the grid.]]
-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a
  desire to play. 
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:04:00 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:35:57 +0100
  Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play. 
>>  After having agreed to obey the rules, and being 
>> indestinguishable from a human, I... Er... State that I 
>>do 
>> so desire to join you. 
>  
>  'lo
>> However, I know not what else you could possibly want 
>>from 
>> me besides the fact that I am capable of passing a 
>>Turing 
>> test.
>> 
>  You sure? :)
>
>  OTOH I haven't seen anyone turing tested here, so...
>
>  WC.

I don't how many insane artist computers you're going to 
find at present.  So far I haven't had anybody accuse me 
of being digital in any way, shape or form.  However if 
you'd like to test it, feel free at any point in time.

Though I would think that everybody here is being 
constantly Turing tested here, as the Turing test is, 
since I decided to do some research, any test that will 
differentiate a digital being from an AI, so if you get 
the idea that I'm some programmer's imagination, and have 
some way to prove it, I've obviously FAILED.

However I think you'll be satisfied that it is indeed 
difficult to differentiate me from any other human as far 
as unpredictability and character.

Wow did I take a long time to say that.  Though you won't 
find any apology from me.  So nyah.

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:23:06 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: More commentary
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The tension is mounting, as the players discover that the Commentator
has no idea what he's talking about! Yes, fans, you will notice that I
entirely failed to take into account Bean, who is -here- [a yellow
highlighter circle appears around Bean] and thus in a prime position to
tackle The Voice -here- [an arrow is drawn from the circle toward The
Voice]. Will he get there in time?!

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:36:12 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/15/02 at 10:22 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Well, rule four hundred ninety three says that Buoy. and Ballast can each
>> be
>> set to as much as one hundred, so: Either that makes it legal for me to do
>> that which I am about to do; Or it is not legal for Glotmorf to set those
>> same aspects of eir ship...
>> 
>> I set Glotmorf's Dimship's values to: fifty Buoy. in Entrop., one hundred
>> Ballast in score.
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko
> 
> Heh.  Fine.  I change my Dim Ship buoy. to 0.
> 
> We can do this back and forth as much as we want...
> 
> 'Morf
> 
> 

Sorry, but 0 is two syllables...

Also, you've got a big chunk of text from me at the top, which contains
multiple 2-syll words. So your msg was illegal...:)

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:41:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > 
> 
> Sorry, but 0 is two syllables...
> 
> Also, you've got a big chunk of text from me at the top, which contains
> multiple 2-syll words. So your msg was illegal...:)

'nil' is only one syllable.

Dan

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/15/02 at 10:32 AM Glotmorf wrote:
> 
>> On 4/15/02 at 10:22 AM Wonko wrote:
>> 
>>> Well, rule four hundred ninety three says that Buoy. and Ballast can each
>>> be
>>> set to as much as one hundred, so: Either that makes it legal for me to do
>>> that which I am about to do; Or it is not legal for Glotmorf to set those
>>> same aspects of eir ship...
>>> 
>>> I set Glotmorf's Dimship's values to: fifty Buoy. in Entrop., one hundred
>>> Ballast in score.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Wonko
>> 
>> Heh.  Fine.  I change my Dim Ship buoy. to 0.
>> 
>> We can do this back and forth as much as we want...
>> 
>> 'Morf
> 
> ...And now I change my Ballast to 0 too.
> 
> Wonko's first para. has a problem: those aren't the sole options in that
> either-or statement.  It could be that Wonko can't change my DimShip's values
> because it's mine; that's more likely than that I can't change my own.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

The rule says nothing about abilities of the owner. Either A) the rules say
it can be set, so anyone can do it, or B) because they don't say how,
changing them is an illegal gamestate mod. Either what I did was legal, or
you're short 100 points.

By the way, you failed to change your Buoy. You used double syllable words.
;)
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Aaron,

>>> 
>> 
>> Sorry, but 0 is two syllables...
>> 
>> Also, you've got a big chunk of text from me at the top, which contains
>> multiple 2-syll words. So your msg was illegal...:)
> 
> 'nil' is only one syllable.
> 
> Dan
> 

Fair enough, but 'Ballast' isn't, and Glotmorf's proposal to not count text
quoted from other msgs hasn't passed yet. E quoted a number of 2syll words
that I used.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:45:59 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Aaron,

>>> 
>> 
>> Sorry, but 0 is two syllables...
>> 
>> Also, you've got a big chunk of text from me at the top, which contains
>> multiple 2-syll words. So your msg was illegal...:)
> 
> 'nil' is only one syllable.
> 
> Dan
> 

Are you a new player, or Dan with a new email address?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:49:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Glotmorf's Dimship
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > 
> 
> Are you a new player, or Dan with a new email address?

I'm Dan with the same email address, mistakenly using the mail settings
that I use for another game.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:01:08 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Crimson
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The Baron isn't listed as a member of Team Crimson.

On 4/4/02 at 10:15 PM, Alex Truelsen <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> -I know, I'll send it to spoon-business... what a novel idea!-
>=20
> I could write a program in thirty seconds that would mass-produce the
> neccessary lines of text, then score a Goal 400 times in quick succession=
,
> first giving me a win, then giving Voice and I both 7 more wins.
>=20
> Whee!
>=20
> -Well, this seems as good a time as any... I join Team Crimson.-
>=20
>                                             -Go team, go,-
>                               -BvS-
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

--=20
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:52:47 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: proosal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Is 'proosal' prounounced Pro-oo-sal or simply proo-sal?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:22:42 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: proosal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 05:52:47PM -0400, Wonko wrote:
> Is 'proosal' prounounced Pro-oo-sal or simply proo-sal?

Proo-sal, I'd say.

Just keep in mind that it refers to a Gremlin.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:25:31 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Staving off the end of the world
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/15/02 at 5:26 PM Wonko wrote:

>[[
>__The End of the World__
>
>In rule four fourty
>Increase the num. five hundred
>by forty two ones.
>
>[[to account for a new player]]
>}}
>
>-- 
>Wonko

I think I like it the way it is, at least for now.  In fact, if you=
 consider my Club Props prop, you'll see new players are exploitable...

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:26:38 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Flipping the Circuit Breaker
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/15/02 at 5:29 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>I propose a rule: 
>{{
>__Flipping the Circuit Breaker__
>
>Immediately after any Player is awarded a Win, a new Rule is
>created with a Chutzpah of 9, with the text:
>{{ __No Win For You__
>
>Players may not win.
>
>}}
>}}
>
>[[ This gives time for the Nomic to get back into a normal state, at
>which time someone may propose to repeal the rule. It's hard to get one
>Win; it should be twice as hard to get two. ]]
>
>
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Would "concurrent with" rather than "immediately after" work?  Is there=
 anything that says events have to be sequential?

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play. 
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 01:53:01 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Though I would think that everybody here is being 
> constantly Turing tested here, as the Turing test is, 
> since I decided to do some research, any test that will 
> differentiate a digital being from an AI, so if you get 
> the idea that I'm some programmer's imagination, and have 
> some way to prove it, I've obviously FAILED.
> 
 I'm wondering what the intent of the rule is.

 Does it stop other games of nomic joining?

 WC.

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a 
 desire to play.
From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:32:35 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Thus spake Jonathan David Amery:
> > Though I would think that everybody here is being 
> > constantly Turing tested here, as the Turing test is, 
> > since I decided to do some research, any test that will 
> > differentiate a digital being from an AI, so if you get 
> > the idea that I'm some programmer's imagination, and have 
> > some way to prove it, I've obviously FAILED.
> > 
>  I'm wondering what the intent of the rule is.
> 
>  Does it stop other games of nomic joining?
> 
>  WC.

It stops people from making their cats players, and then voting on their 
behalf, among other things. I seem to recall that in Berserker someone 
tried to add the entire population of Russia as players, which is nixed by 
the consent part. And we wouldn't want to exclude non-human persons from 
playing, would we?

That's roughly what I was thinking when I wrote the rule, or a near 
ancestor of the rule, whichever it is now.

-- 
J.

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:33:26 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a
	desire to play. 
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan David Amery,

>> Though I would think that everybody here is being
>> constantly Turing tested here, as the Turing test is,
>> since I decided to do some research, any test that will
>> differentiate a digital being from an AI, so if you get
>> the idea that I'm some programmer's imagination, and have
>> some way to prove it, I've obviously FAILED.
>> 
> I'm wondering what the intent of the rule is.
> 
> Does it stop other games of nomic joining?
> 
> WC.

I think the Turing test bit was put there to stop a storm of Bob's Clones...

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:35:40 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: My Dim Ship
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> Some folks, it seems, like to sweat the small things...
> 
> Thanks to Wonk, I find I must now clear out all the buoy. and ball. from my
> Dim Ship.  I shall do so.
> 
> Though in fact I don't know if it's a real prob., since the Dim Ship did not
> launch yet...
> 
> Back to you, Wonk.
> 
> 'Morf.

What's launching mean? The rules are silent...

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:58:34 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Flipping the Circuit
	Breaker
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/15/02 at 5:29 PM Rob Speer wrote:
> 
>> I propose a rule:
>> {{
>> __Flipping the Circuit Breaker__
>> 
>> Immediately after any Player is awarded a Win, a new Rule is
>> created with a Chutzpah of 9, with the text:
>> {{ __No Win For You__
>> 
>> Players may not win.
>> 
>> }}
>> }}
>> 
>> [[ This gives time for the Nomic to get back into a normal state, at
>> which time someone may propose to repeal the rule. It's hard to get one
>> Win; it should be twice as hard to get two. ]]
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Rob Speer
> 
> Would "concurrent with" rather than "immediately after" work?  Is there
> anything that says events have to be sequential?
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
If it's concurrent, isn't that a paradox? It's illegal for it to happen, if
and only if it successfully happens?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:59:24 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Flipping the Circuit Breaker
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 08:26:38PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> Would "concurrent with" rather than "immediately after" work?  Is there anything that says events have to be sequential?

Well, if it's "concurrent with", then does it prevent the person getting
the win at that very moment from winning?

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:04:01 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Club Charters
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _Hey Spanky, Wanna Start a Club?_
> 
> {{ _Club Charters_
> 
> Groups, as defined in Rule Five-Seven-Eight, also known as Clubs, can be
> formed by a Player making a Charter Prop, which is like a normal prop. in that
> it's added to the nweek ballot and voted on.  A Charter Prop, though, passes
> unless 2/3 of the votes it receives are against it.  Passage or failure of
> Charter Props don't cause gains or losses of score points.

This means that throwing in a tiny little useless Club clause would allow
anyone to make a proposal that only requires 1/3 of the players to vote Yes.
That's bad.

Besides, if just under 2/3 of all players don't like it, what stops someone
from proposing to repeal it? 2/3 is plenty to repeal a rule.

-- 
Wonko

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:10:28 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I don't how many insane artist computers you're going to
find at present.  So far I haven't had anybody accuse me
of being digital in any way, shape or form.  However if
you'd like to test it, feel free at any point in time.
-Hey, I can use a laugh. I challenge you to prove you're not a computer, 
beyond any shadow of doubt, or, in other words, pass a Turing test.-

Though I would think that everybody here is being
constantly Turing tested here, as the Turing test is,
since I decided to do some research, any test that will
differentiate a digital being from an AI, so if you get
the idea that I'm some programmer's imagination, and have
some way to prove it, I've obviously FAILED.

However I think you'll be satisfied that it is indeed
difficult to differentiate me from any other human as far
as unpredictability and character.
-I'd think it would be easy to differentiate you from every other human in 
personality and character. The tone of your mailings is already clearly 
different from all other players of this game, anyway.-

Wow did I take a long time to say that.  Though you won't
find any apology from me.  So nyah.

^_~--Yuki
-BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Crimson
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:25:03 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The Baron isn't listed as a member of Team Crimson.

On 4/4/02 at 10:15 PM, Alex Truelsen <[email-masked]> wrote:
 >
 > -I know, I'll send it to spoon-business... what a novel idea!-
 >
 > I could write a program in thirty seconds that would mass-produce the
 > neccessary lines of text, then score a Goal 400 times in quick 
succession,
 > first giving me a win, then giving Voice and I both 7 more wins.
 >
 > Whee!
 >
 > -Well, this seems as good a time as any... I join Team Crimson.-
 >
 >                                             -Go team, go,-
 >                               -BvS-

--
Wonko

-Wonko, I'm touched! That's some real team spirit right there, that is. Woo! 
Go Red! Crimson! Whatever!-

-Ra, ra, ra,-
-BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a
  desire to play.
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:25:25 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:10:28 -0400
  "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I don't how many insane artist computers you're going to
>find at present.  So far I haven't had anybody accuse me
>of being digital in any way, shape or form.  However if
>you'd like to test it, feel free at any point in time.
>-Hey, I can use a laugh. I challenge you to prove you're 
>not a computer, beyond any shadow of doubt, or, in other 
>words, pass a Turing test.-
>
>Though I would think that everybody here is being
>constantly Turing tested here, as the Turing test is,
>since I decided to do some research, any test that will
>differentiate a digital being from an AI, so if you get
>the idea that I'm some programmer's imagination, and have
>some way to prove it, I've obviously FAILED.
>
>However I think you'll be satisfied that it is indeed
>difficult to differentiate me from any other human as far
>as unpredictability and character.
>-I'd think it would be easy to differentiate you from 
>every other human in personality and character. The tone 
>of your mailings is already clearly different from all 
>other players of this game, anyway.-
>
>Wow did I take a long time to say that.  Though you won't
>find any apology from me.  So nyah.
>
>^_~--Yuki
>-BvS-
>

I call upon The Voice, as he can state that I am, indeed a 
human.  And...  I have pictures.

Plus...  I can prove I am not a machine, which is part of 
the Turing test.  Or, I am not a mindless thing, and 
people can confuse me for a human, were I indeed not 
human.  Which I am.  My logic is extremely faulty. 
 Nonfaulty logic is a signature trait of machines.

That and you've responded to my witty and somewhat 
sarcastic posts as you would to any other witty and 
sarcastic post.  With wit and sarcasm.  If I am indeed a 
computer, I have already passed the Turing test, as there 
is no...  Er...  Quantifier?  Anyways.  It says I don't 
need to be human.  I just need to be passable as such.

Cats are not passable as human.  Fully effective AIs, on 
the other hand, are.  So whether or not I am an AI, I have 
passed your test.

I play the game.

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:20:18 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I call upon The Voice, as he can state that I am, indeed a
human.  And...  I have pictures.
-But how do I know e isn't a machine, either?-

Plus...  I can prove I am not a machine, which is part of
the Turing test.  Or, I am not a mindless thing, and
people can confuse me for a human, were I indeed not
human.  Which I am.  My logic is extremely faulty.
Nonfaulty logic is a signature trait of machines.
-Maybe you're a Mac. No, I'm thinking Mac users, sorry. Although you might 
just be faking bad logic.-

That and you've responded to my witty and somewhat
sarcastic posts as you would to any other witty and
sarcastic post.  With wit and sarcasm.  If I am indeed a
computer, I have already passed the Turing test, as there
is no...  Er...  Quantifier?  Anyways.  It says I don't
need to be human.  I just need to be passable as such.
-Yes, but I don't act this way to humans. So that proves we don't know if 
you are one, so you haven't passed the Turing test.-

Cats are not passable as human.  Fully effective AIs, on
the other hand, are.  So whether or not I am an AI, I have
passed your test.
-But all you've just said is that you're not a cat. I know that. Cats can't 
type. They can lie on the keyboard, but they can't make words. You can make 
words. So can computers.-

I play the game.
-So do I. Do you know /I'm/ not a computer?-

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:32:55 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Club
  Charters
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/15/02 at 10:04 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> {{ _Hey Spanky, Wanna Start a Club?_
>> 
>> {{ _Club Charters_
>> 
>> Groups, as defined in Rule Five-Seven-Eight, also known as Clubs, can be
>> formed by a Player making a Charter Prop, which is like a normal prop.
>in that
>> it's added to the nweek ballot and voted on.  A Charter Prop, though,
>passes
>> unless 2/3 of the votes it receives are against it.  Passage or failure
>of
>> Charter Props don't cause gains or losses of score points.
>
>This means that throwing in a tiny little useless Club clause would allow
>anyone to make a proposal that only requires 1/3 of the players to vote
>Yes.
>That's bad.
>
>Besides, if just under 2/3 of all players don't like it, what stops=
 someone
>from proposing to repeal it? 2/3 is plenty to repeal a rule.
>
>-- 
>Wonko

The general idea here is that Clubs are mostly for the benefit of their=
 members, and therefore the formation of one shouldn't require everyone's=
 approval; however, if a Club, or the rule that defines the Club, is=
 something that for whatever reason everybody doesn't want, then everyone=
 can agree to keep that Club from coming into existence.

Why a rule?  At least partly because of the Club Prop rule I'm proposing,=
 because if a Club can have an effect on the rest of the game, then there=
 should be some portion of it the rest of the game has direct control over.=
  Which, yes, includes repealing it if necessary.

If it's not a rule, we need an entirely new mechanism for maintaining Club=
 Charters, along the lines of my insta-rules.  As in, a separate list=
 maintained by Mr. A.

I can live with that, and even with changing the Club Prop prop to fit.=
  Can you suggest the language?

						Glotmorf

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a
  desire to play.
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:38:02 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:20:18 -0400
  "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I call upon The Voice, as he can state that I am, indeed 
>a
>human.  And...  I have pictures.
>-But how do I know e isn't a machine, either?-
>
>Plus...  I can prove I am not a machine, which is part of
>the Turing test.  Or, I am not a mindless thing, and
>people can confuse me for a human, were I indeed not
>human.  Which I am.  My logic is extremely faulty.
>Nonfaulty logic is a signature trait of machines.
>-Maybe you're a Mac. No, I'm thinking Mac users, sorry. 
>Although you might just be faking bad logic.-
>
>That and you've responded to my witty and somewhat
>sarcastic posts as you would to any other witty and
>sarcastic post.  With wit and sarcasm.  If I am indeed a
>computer, I have already passed the Turing test, as there
>is no...  Er...  Quantifier?  Anyways.  It says I don't
>need to be human.  I just need to be passable as such.
>-Yes, but I don't act this way to humans. So that proves 
>we don't know if you are one, so you haven't passed the 
>Turing test.-
>
>Cats are not passable as human.  Fully effective AIs, on
>the other hand, are.  So whether or not I am an AI, I 
>have
>passed your test.
>-But all you've just said is that you're not a cat. I 
>know that. Cats can't type. They can lie on the keyboard, 
>but they can't make words. You can make words. So can 
>computers.-
>
>I play the game.
>-So do I. Do you know /I'm/ not a computer?-
>
>^_~--Yuki

Ahemhem.  Allow me to tell you what the conditions of the 
test are.

If the subject can pass as human to a person who cannot 
see them, they pass the test.  Whether or not I am a 
computer, I pass well enough as human.  SmarterChild, the 
AIM buddy, is almost capable of passing as human.  But not 
quite.

I am capable of passing as a human.  Were the digitized 
thing not to come up, you would not have questioned it in 
the least.

I have passed your test, Baron von Skippy, as the others 
here will say that there is no trait in me that is 
indistinguishable from a human that they can see.

Whether or not I am an AI, I am eligible for this game, as 
the conditions do not include flesh, blood, bone, genes, 
or really anything that we're used to defining as "human" 
or "living".  It requires that we have the mental capacity 
to be such, and that if we are not, we can trick others 
into thinking we are so.  I have a friend in Finland who 
believes I am human, though he has never seen me.  Same 
with several other friends.

If I am not human, the fact that they believe I am means 
that I am eligible.

I can say that five or ten more ways if you so want. 
 Needless to say, I'm pretty good at telling you I'm 
capable of playing.

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:59:28 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Do we want to have any means of giving more information about ourselves,=
 such as websites, email addresses, Yahoo IM names, etc?

I ask this because, among other reasons, we sometimes get fast-and-furious=
 email exchanges here, and could just as easily open up a Yahoo conference=
 and chat directly.  If we think it's poignant, we can always post a log=
 here.

						Glotmorf

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:03:56 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:59:28 -0400
  "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>Do we want to have any means of giving more information 
>about ourselves, such as websites, email addresses, Yahoo 
>IM names, etc?
>
>I ask this because, among other reasons, we sometimes get 
>fast-and-furious email exchanges here, and could just as 
>easily open up a Yahoo conference and chat directly.  If 
>we think it's poignant, we can always post a log here.
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>

I believe I quite agree.  Though I don't use Yahoo, I'm 
sure we could even go as far as to make a webchat 
placeamahoozer, though that would involve a designated 
someoene copy/pasting the whole thing so no posts were 
lost in some cases...

But that's me thinking something makes sense.

^_~-Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:15:38 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: proosal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Is 'proosal' prounounced Pro-oo-sal or simply proo-sal?
>
Proo-sal. 2 syllables.

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:16:32 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: This one should work.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Seems to me that rule 32 states
> 
> "If and only if the proposal passed, its actions (such as Rule Changes and
> other changes to the state of the game) are put into effect in the order in
> which they are described."
> 
> Now, perhaps rule 293 said "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly
> affects players must also amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would
> affect the player with the Idol." at the time, but 32 had a lower number,
> and so took precedence over it.
>
Didn't r293 have a higher chutzpah than r32? But even if it didn't, it doesn't matter...

> Once the rules had been created, there was no conflict - 293 regulated what
> a rule creating a Gremlin must do, but the rules were no longer 'creating'
> Gremlins; the Gremlins had been created when the rules were.
>
> So the sentence in 293 essentially did nothing, as rule 32 took precedence
> over it and contradicted it.
> 
The key point that you're missing is that creating the gremlin was *not* an effect of the proosal, and so r32 is irrelevant. Creating the gremlin was an effect of the rule created by the proosal, not of the proosal itself, and so it had the same precedence as *that* rule, not as rule 32, and so rule 293 took precedence over it, and the gremlin could not be created.

Now, you could argue that immediate effects of the rule created by the proosal count as effects of the proosal - but you'd be wrong, as per CFJ 254.

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Upper House 
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:39:15 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 I once again propose: (simplified)

{{
__The Upper House__

Create a rule titled __The Upper House__
 {{
  There exists a society called `The Upper House'.  While the public
rules of this society ever deem it to have less members than three
then all active players shall be considered eligible to be members.
 }}
 and set the rules of The Upper House to be as defined by the {{<<}} and
 {{>>}} delimited text below.

<<
[[
 Having been called to the Judge's bench for the third time, and for
the third time judged on a case and had my opinion made part of the
precident of the state I returned to my place watching the football
game only to be interrupted by a flunky who greeted me as `My Lord'.

 `Why do you address me as such?', I asked him, somewhat puzzled.

 `It is because that with your third judgement you have joined the
Upper House, my Lord.'
]]
 1) All players who have given a Judgement on 3 more CFJs that have
not been successfully appealed than they have on CFJs that have been
successfully appealed are eligible to be members of The Upper House.

 2) All players who are eligible to be members are unless they
choose not to be by rule 3. 

 3) Any member of The Upper House may declare in a public forum that
they wish to suspend their membership.  Any player who is eligible to
be a member, but whos membership is currently suspended may
reactivate their membership by declaring that in a public forum.
Players whos membership is suspended are not members of The Upper
House.

[[
 `Pull the other one, it's got bells on, and I've never heard of the
Upper House.'

 `Well, m'Lord, it was historically also a place where laws to be
created were discussed and voted on, but in recent years it has become
more of a place where rules are interpreted'

 `Well, what do I have to do?'

 `Think about rules when people ask the House to do so.'
]]

 4) If The Upper House is called to Judge on a CFJ then a panel of
three of its members is chosen at random.  The panel has one nweek to
come up with a judgement between them that at least two of them agree
with.  A member of the panel then posts this judgement to a public
forum and The Upper House has then Judged on the CFJ.

 5) The Upper House cannot Judge on the same CFJ twice.
[[
 It sounded like an easy job to me, so I didn't complain.  I just lay
back and waited to see what happened next.
]]

 6) If a majority of the members of The Upper House agree to a change
to its rules on a public forum within a period of 72 hours then that
change is made.
>>

}}

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:43:54 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: And so you're free.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 7:19 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

><proosal>
><title>And so you're free.</title>
><body>
>Repeal all rules, in numerical order except that rule 32 shall be repealed
>last.
></body>
><proosal>
>-- 

Sorry, guy. I haven't achieved my zen yet, so I can't divorce myself from=
 my worldly things.  Thank you for your concern.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:45:40 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: It will surely come.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 7:22 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

><proosal>
><title>It will surely come.</title>
><body>
>Repeal rule 212.
></body>
></proosal>
>
>uin.

No, no, a thousand and one times no.

If you want more bandwidth, join a club.  Pool your bandwidth with others.=
  That way, there will be less chance of bandwidth going unused.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:51:01 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the
  subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 7:27 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

><proosal>
><title>Do your best to change the subject.</title>
><body>
>Repeal rule 358. [[Never been used, and you can do it anyway.]]
></body>
></proosal>
>
>uin.
>-- 

"Can do it anyway" isn't quite the issue.  Rule 18 talks about things not=
 prohibited or regulated.  Rule 358 regulates things.  One could make the=
 argument that since a method of declaring proposal dependence is mentioned=
 in this rule, any other attempt to make a proposal dependent on another is=
 invalid.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:13:57 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Just a figment of the telephone.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 7:25 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

><proosal>
><title>Just a figment of the telephone.</title>
><body>
>Repeal rule 155. [[proosals can override it anyway (c.f. CFJ 254), and
>CFJs can't "call for effects" anyway]].
></body>
></proosal>
>
>uin.

CFJs can call for effects.  There might be no obligation on the part of the=
 Administrator to implement them, but they can be called for.

As for proposals overriding it, I seem to recall that r155 was written in=
 response to some of your proposals that promised rewards to players that=
 vote for them, and CFJs that promised joint control of the game to the=
 judge...If r155 has no effect, why is it that (a) those proposals of yours=
 died off after it was enacted, and (b) you want it repealed?

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:24:32 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to
	change the subject.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/16/02 at 7:27 AM Gavin Doig wrote:
> 
>> <proosal>
>> <title>Do your best to change the subject.</title>
>> <body>
>> Repeal rule 358. [[Never been used, and you can do it anyway.]]
>> </body>
>> </proosal>
>> 
>> uin.
>> --
> 
> "Can do it anyway" isn't quite the issue.  Rule 18 talks about things not
> prohibited or regulated.  Rule 358 regulates things.  One could make the
> argument that since a method of declaring proposal dependence is mentioned in
> this rule, any other attempt to make a proposal dependent on another is
> invalid.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

One could make that argument, but one would be wrong. Perhaps a decent
argument could be made that it was illegal to make a proposal "dependent" on
another proposal except in the manner specified in the rule, but nothing
stops one from doing almost exactly the same thing and simply calling it
something different.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:31:29 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: This one should work.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

>> Seems to me that rule 32 states
>> 
>> "If and only if the proposal passed, its actions (such as Rule Changes and
>> other changes to the state of the game) are put into effect in the order in
>> which they are described."
>> 
>> Now, perhaps rule 293 said "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly
>> affects players must also amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would
>> affect the player with the Idol." at the time, but 32 had a lower number,
>> and so took precedence over it.
>> 
> Didn't r293 have a higher chutzpah than r32? But even if it didn't, it doesn't
> matter...

Yes, it does...

>> Once the rules had been created, there was no conflict - 293 regulated what
>> a rule creating a Gremlin must do, but the rules were no longer 'creating'
>> Gremlins; the Gremlins had been created when the rules were.
>> 
>> So the sentence in 293 essentially did nothing, as rule 32 took precedence
>> over it and contradicted it.
>> 
> The key point that you're missing is that creating the gremlin was *not* an
> effect of the proosal, and so r32 is irrelevant. Creating the gremlin was an
> effect of the rule created by the proosal, not of the proosal itself, and so
> it had the same precedence as *that* rule, not as rule 32, and so rule 293
> took precedence over it, and the gremlin could not be created.

Perhaps r293 took precedence over the Gremlin rule. However, rule 293 claims
not that the creation of the Gremlin is invalid, but that the creation of
the rule creating the Gremlin is invalid. The actions of the rule were not
forbidden; the existence of it was.

Thus, r32 comes into play - the creation of the rule was an effect of the
proposal, but was also illegal. If r293 did indeed have higher Chutzpah,
then the rule was never created.

> Now, you could argue that immediate effects of the rule created by the proosal
> count as effects of the proosal - but you'd be wrong, as per CFJ 254.

But the creation of the rule was an effect of the proposal.

> uin.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:34:38 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: It will surely come.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

> <proosal>
> <title>It will surely come.</title>
> <body>
> Repeal rule 212.
> </body>
> </proosal>
> 
> uin.

Might I suggest an alternative method of suspending the Bandwidth, one that
perhaps will not irritate Mr. Glotmorf as much? Allow more than 5 proposals,
but make all past the fifth be treated as if they had been proposed by the
Scoring Gremlin. Thus, many interesting rule-changes can be proposed; but
nobody need worry about my gaining five hundred points in one Ballot.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:39:47 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Keep your hands off...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan David Amery,

> I propose:
> 
> {{
> __Keep your hands off!__
> 
> [[
> There I was, quietly minding my own business, tidying the Sheep
> Gnomes, when all of a sudden this huge THING popped out of the ether
> in front of me, and somehow levitated one of the Gnomes towards
> itself.
> 
> I was having none of this, so I jumped up and grabbed hold of the
> Gnome, stopping it from flying further.  Then GlotMorf popped his head
> out of the side of his Vessel and instructed me in no uncertain terms
> to let go of the Gnome.  I refused saying that it was my Sheep Gnome,
> nad he could just go set his Entropy infinite.
> 
> Then, all of a sudden, the Vessel and the Gnome vanished, leaving me
> sprawled on the ground, shouting "Keep your hands off!"
> ]]
> 
> Create a new Rule:
> 
> {{ {,2}
> __Keep your hands off!__
> 
> Unless otherwise explicitly permitted by the rules, no player may
> modify the state of any object in posession of another player, without
> the other player's explicit permission in a public forum.
> }}
> }}

We only have one case where this rule becomes important, and that is merely
because of a wording glitch in the DimShip rule.

-- 
Wonko

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Keep your hands off... 
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:42:47 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> We only have one case where this rule becomes important, and that is merely
> because of a wording glitch in the DimShip rule.

 It's probably a useful general rule, in the same sense as the
everything not forbidden being allowed one is.

 WC.

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:54:38 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: And so you're free.
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 --- Gavin Doig <[email-masked]> wrote: > <proosal>
> <title>And so you're free.</title>
> <body>
> Repeal all rules, in numerical order except that
> rule 32 shall be repealed last.
> </body>
> <proosal>

Unfortunately this invokes the Flaming Gremlin Named
Bruce...

Naath  

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:17:29 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: And so you're
  free.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 3:54 PM Naath Thabana wrote:

>--- Gavin Doig <[email-masked]> wrote: > <proosal>
>> <title>And so you're free.</title>
>> <body>
>> Repeal all rules, in numerical order except that
>> rule 32 shall be repealed last.
>> </body>
>> <proosal>
>
>Unfortunately this invokes the Flaming Gremlin Named
>Bruce...
>
>Naath  

No it doesn't.  Since e is using a nonstandard, nonregulated form of=
 delimiters, it doesn't matter what e puts in those tags as long as the=
 intent is clear.  E could have just as easily put <flaming gremlin named=
 Bruce> in there and it would have been valid.

Now, if you wanted to propose a rule that whoever invokes Bruce in whatever=
 form on the public forum gets visited by it, that would make things more=
 entertaining...

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:19:10 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Keep your hands off...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 10:39 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Jonathan David Amery,
>
>> I propose:
>> 
>> {{
>> __Keep your hands off!__
>> 
>> [[
>> There I was, quietly minding my own business, tidying the Sheep
>> Gnomes, when all of a sudden this huge THING popped out of the ether
>> in front of me, and somehow levitated one of the Gnomes towards
>> itself.
>> 
>> I was having none of this, so I jumped up and grabbed hold of the
>> Gnome, stopping it from flying further.  Then GlotMorf popped his head
>> out of the side of his Vessel and instructed me in no uncertain terms
>> to let go of the Gnome.  I refused saying that it was my Sheep Gnome,
>> nad he could just go set his Entropy infinite.
>> 
>> Then, all of a sudden, the Vessel and the Gnome vanished, leaving me
>> sprawled on the ground, shouting "Keep your hands off!"
>> ]]
>> 
>> Create a new Rule:
>> 
>> {{ {,2}
>> __Keep your hands off!__
>> 
>> Unless otherwise explicitly permitted by the rules, no player may
>> modify the state of any object in posession of another player, without
>> the other player's explicit permission in a public forum.
>> }}
>> }}
>
>We only have one case where this rule becomes important, and that is=
 merely
>because of a wording glitch in the DimShip rule.
>
>-- 
>Wonko

Though it raises an interesting issue...sharable possessions, that, given=
 explicit designation on a public forum, can be freely taken from one=
 player by another.

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:54:41 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Your logic is getting better... I might note that by a previous argument of 
yours, that means you might be a machine after all, with slightly better 
programming in your logic circuits, but I fear that the continuation of this 
discussion will get "debating the sentience of a player" added to the LOGAS. 
Very well, you have proven your worth. That was the easy part of this game.

                                             Cheers,
                                               BvS

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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Do we want to have any means of giving more information about ourselves, 
such as websites, email addresses, Yahoo IM names, etc?

I ask this because, among other reasons, we sometimes get fast-and-furious 
email exchanges here, and could just as easily open up a Yahoo conference 
and chat directly.  If we think it's poignant, we can always post a log 
here.

						Glotmorf

-That might be nice. I think we all know each other's e-mails already- it 
appears at the top of your messages, but the ability to have one-on-one or 
small group discussions over an IM service might make this game really 
interesting...-

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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:00:01 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

<defendant>
Baron von Skippy.
</defendant>

-Okay, I have to bite. Why is it you try so hard to keep me from being 
Judge? Is it some petty personal reason? Have I wronged you? Or do you just 
not like the way I judge? This is getting stupid.-

                                           -BvS-

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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: And so you're free.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:01:58 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

<proosal>
<title>And so you're free.</title>
<body>
Repeal all rules, in numerical order except that rule 32 shall be repealed 
last.
</body>
<proosal>

-And what /possible/ good does this Flaming Gremlin Named Bruce do for the 
game? Besides screwing it over massively, that is.-

                                               -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles 
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:15:05 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> -That might be nice. I think we all know each other's e-mails already- it 
> appears at the top of your messages, but the ability to have one-on-one or 
> small group discussions over an IM service might make this game really 
> interesting...-

 IRC?

 WC.

 (don't do IM/ICQ - distinct lack of good command-line Linux clients for them)

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:27:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Yet Again, a delay.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I WILL - I cannot emphasize that enough -- get caught up on everything
tonight.

I've been working entirely too much, and closing all the paperwork on a
new(er) car.

But I WILL do everything that needs to be done tonight. Somehow. Not sure
how, really, but I will.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:47:56 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Yet Again, a delay.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 6:27 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>I WILL - I cannot emphasize that enough -- get caught up on everything
>tonight.
>
>I've been working entirely too much, and closing all the paperwork on a
>new(er) car.
>
>But I WILL do everything that needs to be done tonight. Somehow. Not sure
>how, really, but I will.
>
>...dave

Ya know...maybe an unlimited number of proposals per nweek isn't that good=
 an idea...:)

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: [OT] Yay!
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:11:26 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 I've just found an extant copy of the .nomic ruleset as it was at the
time the game crashed.

 Anyone know anything about adding stuff to the nomic.net site?

 J.

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: [OT] Yay! 
From: Joel Uckelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:44:02 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Thus spake Jonathan David Amery:
> 
>  I've just found an extant copy of the .nomic ruleset as it was at the
> time the game crashed.
> 
>  Anyone know anything about adding stuff to the nomic.net site?
> 
>  J.

Send it to me, and I'll add it next time I do a site update (in May 
sometime, most likely).

-- 
J.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:05:25 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>-That might be nice. I think we all know each other's e-mails already- it
 > appears at the top of your messages, but the ability to have one-on-one 
or
 > small group discussions over an IM service might make this game really
 > interesting...-

  IRC?

  WC.

  (don't do IM/ICQ - distinct lack of good command-line Linux clients for 
them)

-*blank stare* Sorry, was that English? I've got AIM. Only good thing ever 
to come out of AOL-Time Warner-Spawn of Satan, Inc. What's wrong with its 
chat rooms? Although this does raise the issue of how we deal with all these 
different services- which to choose, and by what criteria?-

                                           -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:07:50 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: elJefe strikes again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 12:52 AM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>In my meanderings among bits of long lost .nomic [[look upon me...]]
>I encountered Slakko's rules fix - which utilised elJefe's loophole to
>fix our rules.
>
> Players interested in elJefe's loophole should read Internomic
>Judgement #5 at:
>
> http://www.slack.net/~bruck/internomic/cfj.html
>
> Anyway, I believe that a varient of this loophole exists here,
>therefore (I'm going to go for a reasonably minimal one here):
>
> By Rule 18/1:
>
>#  Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by the Ruleset is permitted
># and unregulated, with the sole exception of Rule Changes, which are
># permitted only when a Rule or set of Rules explicitly or implicitly
># permits them. A Rule Change consists of the creation (enactment),
># modification (amendment), or deletion (repeal) of a rule.
>
> This rule explicitly permits Rule changes in the case where a Rule,
>or a set of Rules explicitly or implicitly permits Rule Changes. 
>
> By Rule 12/0:
>
>#  Rule Changes that affect Rules needed to allow or apply Rule Changes
># are permissible. Even Rule Changes that amend or repeal their own
># authority are premissible. No Rule Change is impermissible solely on
># account of its self-reference or self-application.
>
> This rule explicitly permits Rule Changes that affect rules needed to
>allow Rule Changes.
>
> Hence Rules 18/1 and 12/0 are, between them, a set of Rules
>explicitly permitting Rule Changes that affect Rule 18/1. 
>
> Hence I change Rule 18/1 to read as follows:
>
>{{
> With the exception of Rule Changes whatever is not prohibited or 
>regulated by the Ruleset is permitted and unregulated.
>
> Changing the Rules is permitted only as explicitly or implicitly
>described by a Rule other than this Rule or a set of Rules not
>including this Rule.
>
> A Rule Change consists of the creation (enactment),
>modification (amendment), or deletion (repeal) of a rule.
>}}
>
> WC.

Is that a can o' worms you really want to open?  Cuz if I'm reading this=
 correctly you're saying any of us can make any change to the rules that=
 control how rules can be changed...

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:27:11 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Rule Change
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> Rule 12 says I can make changes to rules that control how changes to rules are
> made.  I believe that must include Rule 12.  Therefore...
> 
> I hereby add this text to the end of Rule 12:
> 
> "Glotmorf can change any rule e wants at any time e wants.  No one but
> Glotmorf may make a change to this rule."
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

I'm sorry, how does r12 count as a rule "needed to allow or apply Rule
Changes"? It's a redundancy, a clarification - whatever a proposal says
happens DOES happen, so of course it's permissible to change rules "needed
to allow or apply Rule Changes". R12 is not one such rule.

However, just in case it is, I'm going to stop you.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:39:27 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday Evening)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> "The Newer Yeti": 584/0. 584/1.

So, is this version better or worse than the current one? I tried to make it
as easy as possible for there to be some tiny little script that Freezes all
the Yeti's squares.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:41:41 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday Evening)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Wonko can't chuck the Witch Gremlin, since it's in Hiding. (It went into
> hiding as a result of the Primal Scream triggered earlier in the nweek.)

Oops. My mistake.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:43:09 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday Evening)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> "And so you're free.": 591/0. (You're kidding, right?)
> "It will surely come.": 592/0. (No, it's not likely to...)
> "And I bring you...": 593/0.
> "Just a figment of the telephone.": 594/0.
> "Do your best to change the subject.": 595/0.

Say, wasn't UP burnt?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:46:12 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday Evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 4:36 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Unless someone has better logic than I (not a difficult task to
>accomplish, I assure you), Wild Card's modification of Rule 18 appears to
>be legal. 18/2. Glotmorf's subsequent addition to Rule 12 is illegal, as
>Wild Card closed the loophole used.

It's all right...this was illegal anyway.  I forgot I had the scarf back=
 and didn't lisp my declaration. :P

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:47:49 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/16/02 at 10:50 PM Dan Waldron wrote:

>I declare myself Off Leave
>
>I submit the following proposal
>{{
>__Balance__
>Enact the following new rule:
>{{
>__Balance__
>Balance is a player attribute.  The range of Balance is from -100 to 100.
>
>When votes are counted for proposals the administrator shall do the
>follwing for each player:
>
>For each affirmitave vote cast by the player the administrator shall
>increase that player's balance by 1.
>
>For each negative vote cast by the player the administrator shall decrease
>that player's balance by 1.
>
>Initially all balances are zero.
>}}
>No points shall be gained or lost as a result of the passage of this
>proposal.
>}}
>I declare a Leave of Absence.
>
>[[I haven't exactly been paying attention to the game.  But I thought that
>this was just too neat to pass up.  So if I've missed some big rule about
>how I'm supposed to post this can you let me know in a message with the
>word "Balance" in the subject line?  Thanks]]
>
>Dan Waldron
>ICQ 57894467

So what happens when one becomes unbalanced?  Aside from playing games like=
 this one?

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:07:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: B Nomic Discuss <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: The first rule referred to it, you it does not talk, 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

As clever souls might guess, the unsushiied version of the 
proposal may be found at:

http://www.io.com/~karinlee/bnomic.txt

Hmm.  Methinks it's time to pass on that damn piece of fish.

-klk

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:02:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> So what happens when one becomes unbalanced?  Aside from playing games
> like this one?

Nasty stuff.  I'm still working on that bit.

Dan

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:24:25 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday Evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> "And so you're free.": 591/0. (You're kidding, right?)
>
And Dave was enlightened.

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:26:12 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Just a figment of
    the telephone.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> CFJs can call for effects.  There might be no
> obligation on the part of the Administrator to
> implement them, but they can be called for.
>
Well, they may be able to *call*, but do they get an answer? No. So there's little point in prohibiting them from doing something which has no effect.

> As for proposals overriding it, I seem to recall
> that r155 was written in response to some of
> your proposals that promised rewards to
> players that vote for them, and CFJs that
> promised joint control of the game to the
> judge...If r155 has no effect, why is it that
> (a) those proposals of yours died off after it
> was enacted, and (b) you want it repealed?
>
R155 was, indeed, written in response to a proosal where I bribed all the players. I'd initially proosed that as joke, and found it immensely funny when r155 was created as a response. Especially as it completely failed to stop such things from working, as has been demonstrated by the proosal that created r259, which successfully bribed those players who voted for it.

It was also amended to try to stop my CFJs which promised control of the game, but those were rather less of a serious attempt to achieve a scam, and rather more of an attempt to point out that the "force-of-law" provision in the CFJ rule was hugely broken. Now that that's been removed, and CFJs aren't broken, that rule doesn't do anything.

(a) it was only funny at first.
(b) it doesn't do anything.

uin.
-- 

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:27:16 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to
    change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>> <proosal>
>>> <title>Do your best to change the subject.</title>
>>> <body>
>>> Repeal rule 358. [[Never been used, and you can do it anyway.]]
>>> </body>
>>> </proosal>
>>> 
>>> uin.
>>> --
>> 
>> "Can do it anyway" isn't quite the issue.  Rule 18 talks about things not
>> prohibited or regulated.  Rule 358 regulates things.  One could make the
>> argument that since a method of declaring proposal dependence is mentioned in
>> this rule, any other attempt to make a proposal dependent on another is
>> invalid.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> 
>
> One could make that argument, but one would be wrong. Perhaps a decent
> argument could be made that it was illegal to make a proposal "dependent" on
> another proposal except in the manner specified in the rule, but nothing
> stops one from doing almost exactly the same thing and simply calling it
> something different.
>
What Wonko said. There's already been a CFJ on this kind of thing, having to do with standard delimiters.

uin.
-- 

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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:07:45 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday
 Evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> > "The Newer Yeti": 584/0. 584/1.
>
> So, is this version better or worse than the current one?

The only good Yeti is a dead Yeti.

...dave

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:45:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: sushi
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Karin L. Kross wrote:
> I give the Nitpicking wages of the sushi and the Morons to the
> bean.

By me it accepts the graciously sushi, S one of silence the long duration
is bumped against.

Bean

From: "Snow Hart" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:25:56 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:02:20 -0400 (EDT)
  Dan Waldron <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> 
>> So what happens when one becomes unbalanced?  Aside from 
>>playing games
>> like this one?
>
>Nasty stuff.  I'm still working on that bit.
>
>Dan
>

Wow.  I love hyper-vague answers that do me no particular 
good.

Now I'm tempted to bring things like "Chi" and the like 
into this discussion, and make something overly complex 
about stuff most people don't believe in.

With the mutual co-operation of the people involved, of 
course.

^_~--Yuki
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:39:10 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 1:25 PM Snow Hart wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:02:20 -0400 (EDT)
>  Dan Waldron <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> So what happens when one becomes unbalanced?  Aside from 
>>>playing games
>>> like this one?
>>
>>Nasty stuff.  I'm still working on that bit.
>>
>>Dan
>>
>
>Wow.  I love hyper-vague answers that do me no particular 
>good.
>
>Now I'm tempted to bring things like "Chi" and the like 
>into this discussion, and make something overly complex 
>about stuff most people don't believe in.
>
>With the mutual co-operation of the people involved, of 
>course.
>
>^_~--Yuki

Hey, if you define it properly in the ruleset, it works.  All of GremBall=
 came from one of us throwing a gremlin onto the grid.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:49:04 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best
  to change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/17/02 at 12:27 PM Gavin Doig wrote:

>>>> <proosal>
>>>> <title>Do your best to change the subject.</title>
>>>> <body>
>>>> Repeal rule 358. [[Never been used, and you can do it anyway.]]
>>>> </body>
>>>> </proosal>
>>>> 
>>>> uin.
>>>> --
>>> 
>>> "Can do it anyway" isn't quite the issue.  Rule 18 talks about things
>not
>>> prohibited or regulated.  Rule 358 regulates things.  One could make=
 the
>>> argument that since a method of declaring proposal dependence is
>mentioned in
>>> this rule, any other attempt to make a proposal dependent on another is
>>> invalid.
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>>> 
>>> 
>>
>> One could make that argument, but one would be wrong. Perhaps a decent
>> argument could be made that it was illegal to make a proposal
>"dependent" on
>> another proposal except in the manner specified in the rule, but nothing
>> stops one from doing almost exactly the same thing and simply calling it
>> something different.
>>
>What Wonko said. There's already been a CFJ on this kind of thing, having
>to do with standard delimiters.
>
>uin.

There was also CFJ 251 that said that since there's a rule that says how=
 something is done in a particular case, that serves to regulate all cases,=
 and therefore only another explicit rule can permit that thing to be done=
 in a different particular case.

In other words, there were two, in my opinion, directly conflicting CFJs.=
  I CFJ'd on that fact, and the answer given was that CFJs don't have to=
 agree with each other.

Which means, one could argue (wouldn't you just love to meet this "one"?),=
 that CFJs are 100% arbitrary, and therefore meaningless.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:55:30 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance II
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 12:07 PM Dan Waldron wrote:

>I declare myself Off Leave
>{{
>__Balance II__
>{{
>Should a player's balance be greater than 10 or less than -10 that player
>is penalized in the following way:
>
>At the beginning of each nweek that player loses 1 charm and a number of
>points equal to the difference between zero and eir balance.
>}}
>}}
>I declare a Leave of Absence
>Dan Waldron
>ICQ 57894467

Hmm.  No.

Sorry, but there's just too much of a possibility that enough proposals in=
 a given nweek are good and constructive, or bad and harmful, that my votes=
 would unbalance me.  I'd really, really hate to be penalized for acting in=
 the interests of the game.

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the subject. 
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:59:02 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Which means, one could argue (wouldn't you just love to meet this "one"?),=
>  that CFJs are 100% arbitrary, and therefore meaningless.

 CFJs are usually taken to guide play (precident based ...).

 This does mean that if you have contridictory CFJs you might have to
CFJ again...  

 WC.

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:00:34 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The first rule referred to it, you it
  does not talk,
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 8:05 AM Karin L. Kross wrote:

>[[http://www.io.com/~karinlee/bnomic.txt]]
>
>{{
>This charter prop, @&%$! By by the rule which is contained inside 
>the original which decides a limit in order to be defined is. 572 
>586 do not pass, when the both sides does not pass, feeling 
>smallness form inside this. 
>
>@&%$! 
>1. Name the club 
>" it is battle club " distinction. 
>
...
>
>--Inherent Optimist

Mr. A didn't recognize a judgment I HTMLed; he said it would set a bad=
 precedent.  So you might want to resubmit the proposal now that you're not=
 fishy.

Aside from that, I like it.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best  to
 change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
> Which means, one could argue (wouldn't you just love to meet this
> "one"?), that CFJs are 100% arbitrary, and therefore meaningless.

Hey, you know what's funny?  You just (almost) agreed with "The Reality
Police" again!  (and me, but that's not nearly as funny :)

It's true.  CFJs are meaningless.

Bean

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:28:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: can o' worms
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tyler Crosby wrote:
> I Call For Judgement.
>
> Statement: This CFJ has meaning.

Now *there's* a case of metaphysics in nomic.  Just when I thought it
couldn't be done.

Bean

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The first rule is, you don't talk about it (unsushiied) 
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:49:21 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 1. Name
> The Name of the Club is "Fight Club".

 Rule 1: Never talk about Fight Club.

 Rule 2: Never talk about Fight Club.

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:06:16 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance II
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Dan Waldron,

> I declare myself Off Leave
> {{
> __Balance II__
> {{
> Should a player's balance be greater than 10 or less than -10 that player
> is penalized in the following way:
> 
> At the beginning of each nweek that player loses 1 charm and a number of
> points equal to the difference between zero and eir balance.
> }}
> }}
> I declare a Leave of Absence
> Dan Waldron
> ICQ 57894467
> 
Perhaps between 10 and the abs. of eir balance?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:09:07 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Dimship, proposals, etc.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> -0-
> Players have Gnome Bags.  Gnome Bags may hold any number of Gnomes.  Gnomes
> in a player's Gnome Bag are still possessed by that player.
> -0-

Is there any restriction on how many Gnomes we may possess? I didn't think
there was...

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:29:36 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The first rule is, you
  don't talk about it (unsushiied) 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:49 PM 17/04/02 +0100, you wrote:
>
> > 1. Name
> > The Name of the Club is "Fight Club".
>
>  Rule 1: Never talk about Fight Club.
>
>  Rule 2: Never talk about Fight Club.

Rule number 3:  No poofters!

Sorry...

Bean

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:49:13 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 09:05 PM 16/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>-That might be nice. I think we all know each other's e-mails already- it
> > appears at the top of your messages, but the ability to have one-on-one or
> > small group discussions over an IM service might make this game really
> > interesting...-
>
>  IRC?
>
>  WC.
>
>  (don't do IM/ICQ - distinct lack of good command-line Linux clients for 
> them)
>
>-*blank stare* Sorry, was that English? I've got AIM. Only good thing ever 
>to come out of AOL-Time Warner-Spawn of Satan, Inc. What's wrong with its 
>chat rooms? Although this does raise the issue of how we deal with all 
>these different services- which to choose, and by what criteria?-

If I may weigh into this debate... IRC would be the best option, 
IMHO.  Internet Relay Chat is the longest standing chat program (other than 
talk)... and for those of us who can't/won't get ICQ/AIM/Yahoo/MSN (I swear 
people... get Trillian... geez), it's a good option, and you don't have to 
sign up for any accounts or anything.  For those who need a Windows client, 
you can get mIRC at: http://www.mirc.com/

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and yoink #bnomic on DALNet.  Password: 
"proosal" ... to keep the pr0n bots out.  Anyone care to join me?

Bean

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:39:18 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: A statement stating a desire to play.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 08:28 PM 14/04/02 -0700, you wrote:
>As the subject notes, I am stating a desire to play. After having agreed 
>to obey the rules, and being indestinguishable from a human, I... Er... 
>State that I do so desire to join you.
>After such an introductory paragraph that says next to nothing, I believe 
>I should introduce myself. I am to be known as Yuki, and female. I am an 
>artist, and my full name would be Aino Yuki, Yuki No Hime.

Hajimemashite, Ohime-sama! :)  Sorry, had to get that out of my 
system.  Anywho, aplogies for the late welcome... Youkosou!

Cheers,

Bean

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:55:26 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>If I may weigh into this debate... IRC would be the best option,
>IMHO.  Internet Relay Chat is the longest standing chat program (other than
>talk)... and for those of us who can't/won't get ICQ/AIM/Yahoo/MSN (I swear
>people... get Trillian... geez), it's a good option, and you don't have to
>sign up for any accounts or anything.  For those who need a Windows client,
>you can get mIRC at: http://www.mirc.com/
>
>I'm gonna go out on a limb here and yoink #bnomic on DALNet.  Password:
>"proosal" ... to keep the pr0n bots out.  Anyone care to join me?
>
>Bean
>
>

Perhaps a little walkthrough for those of us who are new to this?  I dl'd 
mIRC and I can't make sense of it.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles 
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 01:02:47 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > I'm gonna go out on a limb here and yoink #bnomic on DALNet.  Password: 
> "proosal" ... to keep the pr0n bots out.  Anyone care to join me?

 I'd prefer espernet, but... :)

 WC.

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Dimship, proposals, etc.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:10:50 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Quoth Tyler Crosby,
>
> > -0-
> > Players have Gnome Bags.  Gnome Bags may hold any number of Gnomes.  
>Gnomes
> > in a player's Gnome Bag are still possessed by that player.
> > -0-
>
>Is there any restriction on how many Gnomes we may possess? I didn't think
>there was...
>
>--
>Wonko
>

Yeah, but we hold them, and I wanted to make sure.  Better safe than sorry.  
I will use this later, as well.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:39:55 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 07:55 PM 17/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>If I may weigh into this debate... IRC would be the best option,
>>IMHO.  Internet Relay Chat is the longest standing chat program (other than
>>talk)... and for those of us who can't/won't get ICQ/AIM/Yahoo/MSN (I swear
>>people... get Trillian... geez), it's a good option, and you don't have to
>>sign up for any accounts or anything.  For those who need a Windows client,
>>you can get mIRC at: http://www.mirc.com/
>>
>>I'm gonna go out on a limb here and yoink #bnomic on DALNet.  Password:
>>"proosal" ... to keep the pr0n bots out.  Anyone care to join me?
>>
>>Bean
>>
>
>Perhaps a little walkthrough for those of us who are new to this?  I dl'd 
>mIRC and I can't make sense of it.

Sure... I'm not that good at this, but here goes...

The first thing you need to do is connect to a server.  You can do this by 
going to File->Options, choosing the Connect option from the list on the 
left... filling out your info (Nick, name, email - you can fake it if you 
want), and then choosing a server from the dropdown list.  I think mIRC 
defaults to "Random US DALNet Server", which is exactly what you 
want.  Click the "Connect to IRC Server" button.

If all went well you should get connected to the server.  You may get a 
message that your nick is owned by someone else and to enter the 
password... if you get this message just change your nick using the:

/nick <new nickname>

command.  If for some reason you didn't get connected, bring up the options 
again and try connecting again... you may have picked a random server that 
was full.

Once you're connected, you can join the channel using:

/join #bnomic proosal

As of now, Wild Card and I are in the channel... this may not work out 
100%, but who knows.

Hope this is semi-sufficient....

Cheers,

Bean

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:58:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Waldron <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Balance II
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > 
> Perhaps between 10 and the abs. of eir balance?

That would work too.  I'll change it to that.

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Cleaning up after Glotmorf
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:02:00 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In rule twelve, at the end of the fourteenth word and the twenty sixth word, 
I add "if and only if a rule other than this one permits it."

-Do these occur sequentially? If so, Rule 12 (if this is legal at all) now 
reads: "Rule Changes that affect Rules needed to allow or apply Rule Changes 
are permissible if and only if a rule other than this one permits it if and 
only if a rule other than this one permits it. Even Rule Changes that amend 
or repeal their own authority are premissible. No Rule Change is 
impermissible solely on account of its self-reference or self-application," 
as your addition extends to the new 26th word.-

                                         -Cheers,-
                                           -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Dimship, proposals, etc.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:31:19 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > -0-
 > Players have Gnome Bags.  Gnome Bags may hold any number of Gnomes.  
Gnomes
 > in a player's Gnome Bag are still possessed by that player.
 > -0-

Is there any restriction on how many Gnomes we may possess? I didn't think
there was...

--
Wonko

-Why should there be? Personally, I think it would be a good idea, 
nudgenudgewinkwink, to not have a limit for now.-

                                             -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:00:58 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 9:49 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>There exist Gnomes of type Grain. Grain Gnomes have 3 hit points. A Water 
>Gnome may be squeezed at the cost of one of er hit points to make Bread. A=
 
>player with Bread may cast it upon a Brook. If a player casts Bread upon a=
 
>Brook, they get a Caviar Sandwich. If a player eats a Caviar Sandwich in
>the 
>same nweek as they drink a glass of Champagne, that player gets 5 Style 
>Points.

Dude.  Read those first three sentences carefully.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:05:04 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 3:04 PM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>{{
>__Stretching the Bubble__
>
>In the last paragraph of rule 440 change the first instance of the
>string {{two}} to read {{three}}, and insert the following text
>between {{words of}} and {{one syllable}}:
>
>{{two or fewer syllables. If a player's Entropy exceeds ((Maximum
>Entropy) / (# of players)), all eir messages posted to the public
>forum must consist of words of}}
>}}

A three-syllable limit isn't much of a challenge, especially considering=
 many Americans can go entire days without using three-syllable words.

The two-syllable limit just got implemented, after all.  Sure, there'll be=
 workarounds, but I wanna see who's up to the challenge. (I've already got=
 a one-syllable-word prose form proposal for next nweek...)

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:14:29 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:05:04 -0400
>
>On 4/17/02 at 3:04 PM Jonathan David Amery wrote:
>
> >{{
> >__Stretching the Bubble__
> >
> >In the last paragraph of rule 440 change the first instance of the
> >string {{two}} to read {{three}}, and insert the following text
> >between {{words of}} and {{one syllable}}:
> >
> >{{two or fewer syllables. If a player's Entropy exceeds ((Maximum
> >Entropy) / (# of players)), all eir messages posted to the public
> >forum must consist of words of}}
> >}}
>
>A three-syllable limit isn't much of a challenge, especially considering 
>many Americans can go entire days without using three-syllable words.
>
>The two-syllable limit just got implemented, after all.  Sure, there'll be 
>workarounds, but I wanna see who's up to the challenge. (I've already got a 
>one-syllable-word prose form proposal for next nweek...)
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>
Unless I've made a mistake, our friend Glotmorf went over the limit of two 
syls. in this message... right?

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:15:22 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>There exist Gnomes of type Grain. Grain Gnomes have 3 hit points. A Water
 >Gnome may be squeezed at the cost of one of er hit points to make Bread. A
 >player with Bread may cast it upon a Brook. If a player casts Bread upon a
 >Brook, they get a Caviar Sandwich. If a player eats a Caviar Sandwich in
 >the
 >same nweek as they drink a glass of Champagne, that player gets 5 Style
 >Points.

Dude.  Read those first three sentences carefully.

-So much for saving myself time by copy-pasting and changing words to fit. 
Well, if that's the only complaint anyone has, I'll be a happy camper.-

						Glotmorf

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:20:24 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 11:14 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>>To: [email-masked]
>>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
>>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:05:04 -0400
>>
>>On 4/17/02 at 3:04 PM Jonathan David Amery wrote:
>>
>> >{{
>> >__Stretching the Bubble__
>> >
>> >In the last paragraph of rule 440 change the first instance of the
>> >string {{two}} to read {{three}}, and insert the following text
>> >between {{words of}} and {{one syllable}}:
>> >
>> >{{two or fewer syllables. If a player's Entropy exceeds ((Maximum
>> >Entropy) / (# of players)), all eir messages posted to the public
>> >forum must consist of words of}}
>> >}}
>>
>>A three-syllable limit isn't much of a challenge, especially considering 
>>many Americans can go entire days without using three-syllable words.
>>
>>The two-syllable limit just got implemented, after all.  Sure, there'll
>be 
>>workarounds, but I wanna see who's up to the challenge. (I've already got
>a 
>>one-syllable-word prose form proposal for next nweek...)
>>
>>						Glotmorf
>>
>>
>Unless I've made a mistake, our friend Glotmorf went over the limit of two=
 
>syls. in this message... right?
>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

One, I'm not one of many Americans, and two, this ain't a public forum.=
  Whaddaya gonna look at?  The 10-line entry in this discussion with long=
 words, or the 10k prose form proposal with short ones?

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:58:00 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Profiles
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/17/02 at 8:39 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>/join #bnomic proosal

Got in.  I'm not too clear on how IRC servers are managed...Does the=
 channel just stay there until someone kills it?

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:10:10 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Dimship, proposals, etc.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

>> -0-
>> Players have Gnome Bags.  Gnome Bags may hold any number of Gnomes.
> Gnomes
>> in a player's Gnome Bag are still possessed by that player.
>> -0-
> 
> Is there any restriction on how many Gnomes we may possess? I didn't think
> there was...
> 
> --
> Wonko
> 
> -Why should there be? Personally, I think it would be a good idea,
> nudgenudgewinkwink, to not have a limit for now.-
> 
> -BvS-

I have nothing against freedom of Gnomes; I simply fail to understand why we
need a rule to get around a restriction that we don't have...?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:20:00 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> Okay, there is a plan here, so if ya'll could let these through, I'll be
> much obliged. The end result will be quite nice. By the way, are there any
> Hitchiker's Guide fans in the house?
> 
> Cheers,
> BvS
> 
> {{
> __Gnomes Up the Wazoo__
> 
> Create a new rule titled __Gnomes up the Wazoo__ with a Chutzpah of 2 and
> the following MUAHAHA delimited text:
> 
> MUAHAHA
> There exist Gnomes of type Water. Water Gnomes have 3 hit points. A Water
> Gnome may be squeezed at the cost of one of er hit points to make a Sponge
> wet or create a Brook at the square the squeezing player is standing on.
> Water Gnomes may not be Squeezed in Limbo.

You might want to specify that a player holding a Water Gnome may squeeze
it... this allows me to squeeze a Gnome you're holding to wet a sponge of
mine...

Also, 'er' isn't a word. See r7, "Spivak Pronouns".

> There exist Gnomes of type Air.
> 
> There exist Gnomes of type Earth. Earth Gnomes have 3 hit points. An Earth
> Gnome may be squeezed at the cost of one of er hit points to turn the Brook
> the squeezing player is standing in into Mud. Earth Gnomes may not be
> Squeezed in Limbo.

"The Brook the squeezing player is standing on"? So, hypothetically, what
happens if, by some staggering coincidence, a player with an Earth Gnome
isn't standing on a Brook? I mean, I'm sure that's not likely to happen,
because you know, there are so many brooks on the Grid right now... I count
at least zero!

And I can squeeze your gnomes again.

> There exist Gnomes of type Grain. Grain Gnomes have 3 hit points. A Water
> Gnome may be squeezed at the cost of one of er hit points to make Bread. A
> player with Bread may cast it upon a Brook. If a player casts Bread upon a
> Brook, they get a Caviar Sandwich. If a player eats a Caviar Sandwich in the
> same nweek as they drink a glass of Champagne, that player gets 5 Style
> Points.

Cast it upon any brook anywhere? Does anything happen to the Brook?

And I can squeeze your gnomes again.

> There exist Gnomes of type Lemon.
> 
> There exist Gnomes of type Alien.
> 
> There exist Gnomes of type Herb.
> 
> At the passing of this rule, create 4 Water Gnomes, 2 Air Gnomes, 3 Earth
> Gnomes, 4 Grain Gnomes, 1 Lemon Gnome, 1 Alien Gnome, and 1 Herb Gnome and
> place them randomly on the Grid.
> 
> At the passing of this rule, give two random Gnomes to each player.

That's a lot of Gnomes!

> MUAHAHA
> }}
> 
> {{
> __Wait! It's Not Finished Yet!__
> 
> Append the following HANGON delimited text to the end of Rule 576, The Gnome
> Factory:
> 
> HANGON
> The Gnome Factory cannot create any Gnomes of any type which has not already
> had at least one representative on the Grid.

Had at anytime, or has as of the time it creates one?

> HANGON
> }}

Overall, I think the world could always use some more Gnomes. Maybe to
replace the Gnomes that live in my computer and make it work, 'cause I think
those Gnomes are mostly dead.

-- 
Wonko

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:53:07 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Overall, I think the world could always use some more Gnomes. Maybe to
replace the Gnomes that live in my computer and make it work, 'cause I think
those Gnomes are mostly dead.

--
Wonko

-Well, if you're using Windows, those Gnomes aren't dead, they're just on 
strike, and if you're using a Mac, they were never there to begin with...-

                                             -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:33:06 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best  to
    change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> It's true.  CFJs are meaningless.
>
Yes. In this game, thanks to our... unconventional... starting ruleset, they're just meaningless. Usually the CFJ rule says that judgements don't become rules, just an explicit part of currently accepted game custom. Of course, rule 101 says that game custom can't be affected by the rules, and it takes precedence, so the only way that CFJs become part of game custom is because it's game custom that they do.

Which I prefer to our system. ;-)

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:36:41 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to
    change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>> One could make that argument, but one would be wrong. Perhaps a decent
>>> argument could be made that it was illegal to make a proposal
>> "dependent" on
>>> another proposal except in the manner specified in the rule, but nothing
>>> stops one from doing almost exactly the same thing and simply calling it
>> something different.
>>
>>What Wonko said. There's already been a CFJ on this kind of thing, having
>>to do with standard delimiters.
>>
>>uin.
>
> There was also CFJ 251 that said that since there's a rule that says how
> something is done in a particular case, that serves to regulate all cases,
> and therefore only another explicit rule can permit that thing to be done in
> a different particular case.
>
> In other words, there were two, in my opinion, directly conflicting CFJs.  I
> CFJ'd on that fact, and the answer given was that CFJs don't have to
> agree with each other.
>
CFJ251 says that, since R30 regulates voting, you can't vote except in compliance with R30. Wonko's argument above was that since Rwhatever regulates dependancy, you can't make a dependant proosal except in compliance with that rule. It's the same thing.

In each case, you can still do something equivalent, as long as it's not what's covered by the rule. The only way of affecting proosal passage is by voting, but you could have a straw poll of some kind, which would be another form of voting, but would be permitted, or you could "etov" on a proosal, which would also be permitted (although meaningless (at least from the standpoint of the rules)).

And, although it's your opinion that the 2 CFJs (CFJ 249 and CFJ 251) were contradictory, it's not anyone else's. When you CFJed it (CFJ 284) the answer was *not* that CFJs don't have to agree (although, strictly speaking, they don't). The answer was "There is no reason to believe the judgements to be contradictory." (followed by some further explanation, which I won't bother to quote).

"You're fighting a losing war. Join the Dark Side. We're right, we're winning, and all the hot chicks are over here."

uin.
N.B. This email in no way constitues a guarantee as to the location or ideology of any chicks, hot or not.
-- 

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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:02:57 +0100 (BST)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:

> Okay, there is a plan here, so if ya'll could let these through, I'll be 
> much obliged. The end result will be quite nice. By the way, are there any 
> Hitchiker's Guide fans in the house?
> 
"Back in the golden age of the Galaxy, when men where _real_ men, women
where _real_ women and small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri where
_real_ small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri."

cheers,
Iain

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started... 
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:21:53 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:
> > Okay, there is a plan here, so if ya'll could let these through, I'll be 
> > much obliged. The end result will be quite nice. By the way, are there any 
> > Hitchiker's Guide fans in the house?
> > 
> "Back in the golden age of the Galaxy, when men where _real_ men, women
> where _real_ women and small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri where
> _real_ small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri."
> 
 I'm  currently wearing a T-shirt that proclaims me to be a `Telephone
Sanitizer Second Class'.

 WC.

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:22:52 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> "Back in the golden age of the Galaxy, when men
> where _real_ men, women
> where _real_ women and small fury creatures from
> Alpha Centuri where
> _real_ small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri."
wooohooo my fave bit of the whole thing...

Naath
42.

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:23:04 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best  to
	change the subject.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

>> It's true.  CFJs are meaningless.
>> 
> Yes. In this game, thanks to our... unconventional... starting ruleset,
> they're just meaningless. Usually the CFJ rule says that judgements don't
> become rules, just an explicit part of currently accepted game custom. Of
> course, rule 101 says that game custom can't be affected by the rules, and it
> takes precedence, so the only way that CFJs become part of game custom is
> because it's game custom that they do.
> 
> Which I prefer to our system. ;-)
> 
> uin.

Of course, you could propose to change our system to that... As opposed to
making proposals to repeal the ruleset...;)

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:40:11 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: It will be extensive, the respecting
  Touchdown!  
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 09:25 AM 18/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
> > I purchase to the big rock (20, 10)
> >
> > Bean
> >
> >
>Hmm... What do you know... So do I!
>
>--
>Wonko

Approval that time...

I purchase the pinball gun

Bean

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:03:56 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best  to
    change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>> It's true.  CFJs are meaningless.
>>> 
>> Yes. In this game, thanks to our... unconventional... starting ruleset,
>> they're just meaningless. Usually the CFJ rule says that judgements don't
>> become rules, just an explicit part of currently accepted game custom. Of
>> course, rule 101 says that game custom can't be affected by the rules, and it
>> takes precedence, so the only way that CFJs become part of game custom is
>> because it's game custom that they do.
>> 
>> Which I prefer to our system. ;-)
>> 
>> uin.
> 
> Of course, you could propose to change our system to that... As opposed to
> making proposals to repeal the ruleset...;)
>
I *could*, but it would:
take longer
fail like every other CFJ reform proosal has (with the exception of the one that made them badly broken).

uin.
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best  to  
  change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Gavin Doig wrote:
> I *could*, but it would: take longer fail like every other CFJ reform
> proosal has (with the exception of the one that made them badly broken).

Now hold on a sec... It would appear that we have Glotmorf on our side now
with regards to CFJ reform... Not to mention that the player landscape has
changed significantly since the last time it was attempted.... maybe it's
time to try again... care to discuss?

Bean

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do
 your best to change the subject. 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jonathan David Amery wrote:
> {{
> All CFJs that are currently decided to be True are part of Game Custom.
> }}

Woah.  That's scary.  That appears to a) define Game Custom as a "thing",
and notably what is part of it, and b) does not address the problems of
CFJing illegal actions (which never really happen because they're against
the rules).  Regardless, this proposal is gonna get a big fat NO from me
on the ballot.

Bean

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the subject. 
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:35:48 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> b) does not address the problems of
> CFJing illegal actions (which never really happen because they're against
> the rules). 

CJFs define how reality is, not what is legal, in that sense...

 WC

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:49:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do
 your best to change the subject. 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jonathan David Amery wrote:
> > b) does not address the problems of
> > CFJing illegal actions (which never really happen because they're against
> > the rules).
>
> CJFs define how reality is, not what is legal, in that sense...

Is this yet another supporter of the platonic side of things then?  That
would make four by my count...

Wild Card, since you joined the game post-judicial reform season, I
recommend you look at nweek 4 and 5's proposals (historical stuff).  In
particular, I think you should examine proposal 236 (Scoff!'s initial
attempt at judicial reform) and proposals 275 and 276 (My attempt to take
a referrendum on the issue... neither passed.  I personally think that
276 is an especially good piece of work).  What do you think of
those?

If you're really daring, you can try to read the archives from back then
too to see the discussion that went on... *shiver*

Bean

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the subject. 
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 01:16:33 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > Wild Card, since you joined the game post-judicial reform season, I
> recommend you look at nweek 4 and 5's proposals (historical stuff).  In
> particular, I think you should examine proposal 236 (Scoff!'s initial
> attempt at judicial reform) and proposals 275 and 276 (My attempt to take
> a referrendum on the issue... neither passed.  I personally think that
> 276 is an especially good piece of work).  What do you think of
> those?

 276 looks quite good :)  You've missed out saying that if the Admin
is defendant then the plaintiff can't be the player to randomly select
a Judge.  You also haven't specified the case where the Admin is the
plaintiff.

 WC.

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:44:27 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Since Wild Card plugged the hole that allowed free modification of
> meta-rules, the various changes perpetrated afterwards are illegal and not
> recognized.

Seems to me that Wildcard did not actually plug the hole...

 By Rule 12/0:

#  Rule Changes that affect Rules needed to allow or apply Rule Changes
# are permissible. Even Rule Changes that amend or repeal their own
# authority are premissible. No Rule Change is impermissible solely on
# account of its self-reference or self-application.

 This rule explicitly permits Rule Changes that affect rules needed to
allow Rule Changes.

Under the new R18, rule changes are only legal if a rule explicitly permits
them. R12 explicitly permits them. So what we all did was legal.

There was only one real change, though:

****
In rule twelve, at the end of the fourteenth word and the twenty sixth word,
I add "if and only if a rule other than this one permits it."
****

That closed the loophole, and I edited out all the other changes beforehand.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:53:47 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Since Wild Card plugged the hole that allowed free modification of
> meta-rules, the various changes perpetrated afterwards are illegal and not
> recognized.

I'm not sure about that...

> The Voice queues a Grid move and buys a DimShip.
> Bean goes for a block, dropping a Big Rock on (20,10) (cost 15 pts).
> Wonko drops a second Rock, obliterating the first one, and the Siren that
> was on the first one. Ooh, squishy.
> (Wonko is out 18 points.)

So I help my team get 20 points each by spending 18 of them before I even
get them? Woo! Go money management skills!

> Dan comes off leave, makes a proposal, and goes on leave.
> (I'm surprised nobody's thought to add that silliness to the LOGAS.)

So far, it's only happened once, and I got the impression that Dan had some
pretty good reason for doing it. We'll ban it if it becomes abused.

> "Gnomes Up the Wazoo" is 607/0. Ugh. (Also 607/1.)

Just out of curiosity, why the 'Ugh."?

> "The Newer Yeti" is 584/2.

Is this easier for you to deal with?

> I'd like to point out that, technically, I shouldn't have recognized most
> of this, as the Clock turned Off over a day ago (because I'm an idiot and
> didn't look closely enough at my calendar when writing the successful
> Proposal 504/1). Nothing more will be recognized between now and 00:00:01
> UCT, April 21, 2002 (i.e. Sunday afternoon). Actually, nothing else will
> probably be recognized until Monday morning. Hell, I dunno. At any rate,
> you've got a couple days to discuss the 38 proposals on the current
> ballot.
> 
> Is it too late for me to post a Rectification on that proposal, to reflect
> my true travel schedule? :-)

Does the admin count as a player? If not, the Default Case rule doesn't
apply to you, so you can shut off the Clock whenever you want 'cause no rule
regulates that power.

-- 
Wonko

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:58:55 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Okay, there is a plan here, so if ya'll could let these through, I'll be
 > much obliged. The end result will be quite nice. By the way, are there 
any
 > Hitchiker's Guide fans in the house?
 >
"Back in the golden age of the Galaxy, when men where _real_ men, women
where _real_ women and small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri where
_real_ small fury creatures from Alpha Centuri."

cheers,
Iain

-Marvelous. Simply marvelous. (Oh, and it's "furry," not "fury." I only know 
because a friend of mine has repeated this lineto me a few times.)-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 00:04:06 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Thursday Evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:53 PM 18/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > The Voice queues a Grid move and buys a DimShip.
> > Bean goes for a block, dropping a Big Rock on (20,10) (cost 15 pts).
> > Wonko drops a second Rock, obliterating the first one, and the Siren that
> > was on the first one. Ooh, squishy.
> > (Wonko is out 18 points.)
>
>So I help my team get 20 points each by spending 18 of them before I even
>get them? Woo! Go money management skills!

Hey, you're doing better than me, I spent 15 to fail at stopping you... 
perhaps we need to up the ante?

Bean

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:49:01 +0100 (BST)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Let's get this party started...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:

> 
> -Marvelous. Simply marvelous. (Oh, and it's "furry," not "fury." I only know 
> because a friend of mine has repeated this lineto me a few times.)-
> 
Indeed. of course it is. Thatis the problem with spellcheckers... they
dont recognise mispellings which one has mispelt as other words..

cheers,
Iain

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening) 
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:19:51 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Wild Card: where did you get that "Telephone Sanitizer Second Class"
> shirt? I want one. :-)

 From the ZZ9 Plural Alpha (they're a HHGTTG society I think) desk at
a con.  I don't know if they do mail order...

 WC.

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 04:52:43 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: running in football
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Guys...Is there any reason why I can't declare the path I'll follow as I'm=
 running in Football?  Stating that I'm going to do something in one of the=
 squares as I pass through?

						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 06:57:21 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I'd like to point out that, technically, I shouldn't have recognized most
> of this, as the Clock turned Off over a day ago
>
"If the Clock is Off, no player may take any game-related actions except actions which the rules specifically say may be taken while The Clock is Off."

Do I need to CFJ this?

The Reality Police.
-- 

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 06:58:41 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> {{
> {{
> Buried Treasure__
>
> A player may bury any item or group of items in their possesion,
> subject to said items beeing freely transferable, and declare that
> they are buried treasure.
>
Burn the witch!

uin.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:07:37 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: running in football
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Guys...Is there any reason why I can't declare the
> path I'll follow as I'm running in Football?  Stating
> that I'm going to do something in one of the
> squares as I pass through?
>
I'm afraid so.

R301: "Once per nweek, any Player on the Grid may announce that e intends to move to a new (x,y) coordinate location. Unless otherwise prescribed by the rules, Players may only move from eir current location to any of the units surround eir current location."
R394: "If a player is playing Football, instead of moving as specified in rule 301, e may move to any location which is less than or equal to three units from eir current location."

Although R394 allows you to move to within 3 units, you can still only move once. Moving, so far as I can tell, consists of going from (x, y) to (x', y'). I see nothing to indicate that you pass through any of the intervening locations ("travelling without moving", one might say). To do what you want to do would be 2 separate moves - one from your start to the intermediate location, and another from there to your destination.

uin.
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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal 
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:12:15 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Burn the witch!

 I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.

 WC.

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:17:18 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > Burn the witch!
>
> I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
>
But you said black was a colour. Burn you!

uin.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:20:45 -0500
Subject: RE: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do
    your best to change the subject.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > CJFs define how reality is, not what is legal, in that sense...
>
> Is this yet another supporter of the platonic side of things then?  That
> would make four by my count...
>
Wild Card comes from Acka; he's seen how a *real* nomic works. ;-)

> Wild Card, since you joined the game post-judicial reform season, I
> recommend you look at nweek 4 and 5's proposals (historical stuff).  In
> particular, I think you should examine proposal 236 (Scoff!'s initial
> attempt at judicial reform) and proposals 275 and 276 (My attempt to take
> a referrendum on the issue... neither passed.  I personally think that
> 276 is an especially good piece of work).  What do you think of
> those?
>
I'd vote for 276 again (assuming that was the good one). But have you tried bribing people to vote for it? That works pretty well, I've found. You don't even need to use your own points... I'd recommend about +100 for voting for, -500 for voting against. That should encourage people not to take the risk of voting against it. Almost like Pascal's wager, really.

uin.
N.B: Some or all of this message may be a joke.
-- 

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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal 
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:22:34 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > > Burn the witch!
> >
> > I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
> >
> But you said black was a colour. Burn you!
> 
 I most certainly did not profess such a heresy.

 WC.
 [Upright citizen]

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:23:42 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 --- Gavin Doig <[email-masked]> wrote: > > > Burn
the witch!
> >
> > I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
> >
> But you said black was a colour. Burn you!

where's that from then???

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the subject. 
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:30:55 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > > CJFs define how reality is, not what is legal, in that sense...
> >
> > Is this yet another supporter of the platonic side of things then?  That
> > would make four by my count...
> >
> Wild Card comes from Acka; he's seen how a *real* nomic works. ;-)
> 
 No, I come from Thriung - I mearly lived in Acka for a
while... <grins> 

 WC.

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:36:09 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: running in football
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/19/02 at 7:07 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

>> Guys...Is there any reason why I can't declare the
>> path I'll follow as I'm running in Football?  Stating
>> that I'm going to do something in one of the
>> squares as I pass through?
>>
>I'm afraid so.
>
>R301: "Once per nweek, any Player on the Grid may announce that e intends
>to move to a new (x,y) coordinate location. Unless otherwise prescribed by
>the rules, Players may only move from eir current location to any of the
>units surround eir current location."
>R394: "If a player is playing Football, instead of moving as specified in
>rule 301, e may move to any location which is less than or equal to three
>units from eir current location."
>
>Although R394 allows you to move to within 3 units, you can still only
>move once. Moving, so far as I can tell, consists of going from (x, y) to
>(x', y'). I see nothing to indicate that you pass through any of the
>intervening locations ("travelling without moving", one might say). To do
>what you want to do would be 2 separate moves - one from your start to the
>intermediate location, and another from there to your destination.
>
>uin.

This suggests that someone totally surrounded by Big Rocks couldn't make a=
 conventional move, but could make a Football run...?

						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:17:48 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: running in football
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> This suggests that someone totally surrounded by
> Big Rocks couldn't make a conventional move, but
> could make a Football run...?
>
I don't see why not. Well, I can see why that might not be what you want to happen, but it doesn't seem to be prohibited.

uin.
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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:31:44 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Is it too late for me to post a Rectification on that proposal, to reflect
> my true travel schedule? :-)

If we hadn't plugged the loophole that allowed free changing of rules, we
could have fixed this for you ;)

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday
 Evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Gavin Doig wrote:
> > I'd like to point out that, technically, I shouldn't have recognized most
> > of this, as the Clock turned Off over a day ago
> >
> "If the Clock is Off, no player may take any game-related actions except
> actions which the rules specifically say may be taken while The Clock is
> Off."
>
> Do I need to CFJ this?

Normally I'd agree with you on such matters... however on this occasion
I'd prefer to turn a blind eye to this and just assume that the players
made the actions immediately after the Clock is turned on again.  It just
saves hassle.  If you're bound and determined to annoy many though, so be
it.

Bean

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:18:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: running in football
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Gavin Doig wrote:
> > Guys...Is there any reason why I can't declare the path I'll follow as
> > I'm running in Football?  Stating that I'm going to do something in
> > one of the squares as I pass through?
> >
> I'm afraid so.
>
> R301: "Once per nweek, any Player on the Grid may announce that e
> intends to move to a new (x,y) coordinate location. Unless otherwise
> prescribed by the rules, Players may only move from eir current location
> to any of the units surround eir current location."
>
> R394: "If a player is playing Football, instead of moving as specified
> in rule 301, e may move to any location which is less than or equal to
> three units from eir current location."
>
> Although R394 allows you to move to within 3 units, you can still only
> move once. Moving, so far as I can tell, consists of going from (x, y)
> to (x', y'). I see nothing to indicate that you pass through any of the
> intervening locations ("travelling without moving", one might say). To
> do what you want to do would be 2 separate moves - one from your start
> to the intermediate location, and another from there to your
> destination.

I wrote it this way because it was easier to think of for everyone.
Running consists, essentially, of teleporting.  If you want to fix it, go
ahead, but I have no screaming desire to.

Bean

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:50:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten your
wallet by 100 points?

...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...

Bean

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:45:46 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten your
> wallet by 100 points?
> 
> ...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...
> 
> Bean
> 

Um... You can move in dimensions... That's helpful...

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:04:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
> > Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten your
> > wallet by 100 points?
> >
> > ...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...
> >
> > Bean
> >
>
> Um... You can move in dimensions... That's helpful...

It doesn't seem to say that... It says it is *capable* of doing that at
several locations, but Rule 493 never specifies that your dimesions
change... not in any way I can interpret it anywho...

Bean

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:25:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> I obey the CFJ which comes after:
>
> To the bean it sees more zero style smallness
>
> the analysis which is:
>
> Glotmorf in in me pink color scarf... But it gives I did not get for it
> assuredly what kind of style smallness.
>
> Bean
>

Oh bloody hell... the clock is off.  Nevermind then... I should be able to
get rid of this cursed sushi soon anywho.  Well that was kind of fun
anywho.

Bean

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the subject. 
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 02:31:20 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> attempt at judicial reform) and proposals 275 and 276 (My attempt to take
> a referrendum on the issue... neither passed.  I personally think that
> 276 is an especially good piece of work).  What do you think of
> those?

 How about (when the clock restarts) I replace my proposal with a
slightly tidied up 276?

 WC.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 21:53:35 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > Burn the witch!
 >
 > I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
 >
But you said black was a colour. Burn you!

-How is black not a color? And why does saying it is demand burning? And if 
burning er is so important, pick up Bruce and hit er with it.-

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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 21:58:23 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten your
wallet by 100 points?

...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...

Bean

-This is why I vote for all these toys-for-the-rich proposals. It's lovely 
to see all those points burned for naught.-

                                              -BvS-

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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:15:28 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: PinHead
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Say, anyone with an Omnibus proposal want to add "remove item 11 of the
numbered list in rule 293" to it? The sentence serves absolutely no purpose
whatsoever except to make the ruleset slightly longer.

[[11) May receive points from Pinhead.]]

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:18:22 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

>>> Burn the witch!
>> 
>> I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
>> 
> But you said black was a colour. Burn you!
> 
> -How is black not a color? And why does saying it is demand burning? And if
> burning er is so important, pick up Bruce and hit er with it.-

What's an 'er'?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:20:09 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Gnomes&Grems
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Just out of curiosity, are Gnomes and Gremlins refferred to with 'e', 'em',
and the like, or do we just say 'it'?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:31:28 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

This will be sent out as soon as the Clock's on

<CFJ>

Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not change it.

Defendant: None

Analysis by Plaintiff:

Rule 31 states "During Voting, players may change eir vote on a given issue
by submitting a different vote for that issue."

However, the above process for changing votes is impossible to use, as a
lower numbered rule, rule 30, states that "Each Player may cast exactly one
vote on each proposal on any given Ballot."

Since submitting a different vote is forbidden, players may not change eir
votes.
</CFJ>

-- 
Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:25:26 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: PinHead
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Uh, no?  Otherwise you'd be immune to getting points from Pinhead.... that 
would suck.

Bean

At 11:15 PM 19/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Say, anyone with an Omnibus proposal want to add "remove item 11 of the
>numbered list in rule 293" to it? The sentence serves absolutely no purpose
>whatsoever except to make the ruleset slightly longer.
>
>[[11) May receive points from Pinhead.]]
>
>--
>Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:25:58 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Gnomes&Grems
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Spivak pronouns are optional.... I doubt they mind either way :)

Bean

At 11:20 PM 19/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, are Gnomes and Gremlins refferred to with 'e', 'em',
>and the like, or do we just say 'it'?
>
>--
>Wonko

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:53:53 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: PinHead
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> Uh, no?  Otherwise you'd be immune to getting points from Pinhead.... that
> would suck.
> 
> Bean
> 
> At 11:15 PM 19/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>> Say, anyone with an Omnibus proposal want to add "remove item 11 of the
>> numbered list in rule 293" to it? The sentence serves absolutely no purpose
>> whatsoever except to make the ruleset slightly longer.
>> 
>> [[11) May receive points from Pinhead.]]
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko

Nowhere does it say "Players with the immunity Idol can't recieve points
from Pinhead".

It does say "...then a number of points equal to the sum of all the numbers
picked by Pinhead is given from the Gremlin Fund to each player who made a
proposal during that nweek."

A player with the Immunity Idol is still a Player.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:49:37 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: PinHead
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:53 PM 19/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
> > Uh, no?  Otherwise you'd be immune to getting points from Pinhead.... that
> > would suck.
> >
> > Bean
> >
> > At 11:15 PM 19/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >> Say, anyone with an Omnibus proposal want to add "remove item 11 of the
> >> numbered list in rule 293" to it? The sentence serves absolutely no 
> purpose
> >> whatsoever except to make the ruleset slightly longer.
> >>
> >> [[11) May receive points from Pinhead.]]
> >>
> >> --
> >> Wonko
>
>Nowhere does it say "Players with the immunity Idol can't recieve points
>from Pinhead".
>
>It does say "...then a number of points equal to the sum of all the numbers
>picked by Pinhead is given from the Gremlin Fund to each player who made a
>proposal during that nweek."
>
>A player with the Immunity Idol is still a Player.

Terribly sorry... I thought that somewhere there was something that said 
something akin to: "A player with the immunity idol is immune to all 
effects of Gremlins"

My bad.

Bean

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:06:12 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/19/02 at 4:04 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
>> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>>
>> > Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten
>your
>> > wallet by 100 points?
>> >
>> > ...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...
>> >
>> > Bean
>> >
>>
>> Um... You can move in dimensions... That's helpful...
>
>It doesn't seem to say that... It says it is *capable* of doing that at
>several locations, but Rule 493 never specifies that your dimesions
>change... not in any way I can interpret it anywho...
>
>Bean

Your dimensions per se don't change, but, thanks to being in a DimShip with=
 ballast and buoyancy set, you are displaced in dimspace, so that it's as=
 if you're at a different dimensional location -- a virtual location, if=
 you will.

Which means (a) if you use a dimship to spend points you don't have, your=
 actual points might go negative, and your virtual points would decrease=
 because they're just a displacement from your actual points; and (b) if=
 your dimship gets shot full of holes your actual points apply.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:56:30 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/19/02 at 4:04 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
>>> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>>> 
>>>> Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten
>> your
>>>> wallet by 100 points?
>>>> 
>>>> ...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...
>>>> 
>>>> Bean
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Um... You can move in dimensions... That's helpful...
>> 
>> It doesn't seem to say that... It says it is *capable* of doing that at
>> several locations, but Rule 493 never specifies that your dimesions
>> change... not in any way I can interpret it anywho...
>> 
>> Bean
> 
> Your dimensions per se don't change, but, thanks to being in a DimShip with
> ballast and buoyancy set, you are displaced in dimspace, so that it's as if
> you're at a different dimensional location -- a virtual location, if you will.
> 
> Which means (a) if you use a dimship to spend points you don't have, your
> actual points might go negative, and your virtual points would decrease
> because they're just a displacement from your actual points; and (b) if your
> dimship gets shot full of holes your actual points apply.
> 
> Glotmorf

But one's actual points cannot go negative, so could not one spend points
you don't have using virtual points, then get those points back by disabling
the DimShips points?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:57:01 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Clock
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

When does the Clock turn back on?

-- 
Wonko

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Clock 
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:02:26 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> When does the Clock turn back on?

 About 8 hours I think, BICBW.

 WC.

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:40:53 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 07:06 AM 20/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>On 4/19/02 at 4:04 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
> >> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
> >>
> >> > Is it just me.... or are DimShips currently just a fun way to lighten
> >your
> >> > wallet by 100 points?
> >> >
> >> > ...Wow, just like real boats... a hole you throw money into...
> >> >
> >> > Bean
> >> >
> >>
> >> Um... You can move in dimensions... That's helpful...
> >
> >It doesn't seem to say that... It says it is *capable* of doing that at
> >several locations, but Rule 493 never specifies that your dimesions
> >change... not in any way I can interpret it anywho...
> >
> >Bean
>
>Your dimensions per se don't change, but, thanks to being in a DimShip 
>with ballast and buoyancy set, you are displaced in dimspace, so that it's 
>as if you're at a different dimensional location -- a virtual location, if 
>you will.

I got that as the intention, however I don't think the rule is strong 
enough to actually make it happen.  It doesn't say what a vitrual 
dimensional location is, nor does it override any rules.   So basically, 
for anything invoving DimShips, sure, you're at this virtual location.  But 
for any other purpose, your dimensions sre read as they are.  So they're a 
bit self-centric to be of any use.

>Which means (a) if you use a dimship to spend points you don't have, your 
>actual points might go negative, and your virtual points would decrease 
>because they're just a displacement from your actual points; and (b) if 
>your dimship gets shot full of holes your actual points apply.

Doesn't override the necessary rules.  This is a complex bugger that's 
going to take some effort to work out.  As it stands I think the DimShips 
are just a meaningless way to spend 100 points, and I'll CFJ to that effect 
if necessary.  Good luck with doing anything with them.

Bean

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:48:55 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 04:40 PM 20/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:06 AM 20/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Your dimensions per se don't change, but, thanks to being in a DimShip 
>>with ballast and buoyancy set, you are displaced in dimspace, so that 
>>it's as if you're at a different dimensional location -- a virtual 
>>location, if you will.
>
>I got that as the intention, however I don't think the rule is strong 
>enough to actually make it happen.  It doesn't say what a vitrual 
>dimensional location is, nor does it override any rules.   So basically, 
>for anything invoving DimShips, sure, you're at this virtual 
>location.  But for any other purpose, your dimensions sre read as they 
>are.  So they're a bit self-centric to be of any use.
>
>>Which means (a) if you use a dimship to spend points you don't have, your 
>>actual points might go negative, and your virtual points would decrease 
>>because they're just a displacement from your actual points; and (b) if 
>>your dimship gets shot full of holes your actual points apply.
>
>Doesn't override the necessary rules.  This is a complex bugger that's 
>going to take some effort to work out.  As it stands I think the DimShips 
>are just a meaningless way to spend 100 points, and I'll CFJ to that 
>effect if necessary.  Good luck with doing anything with them.

And for good measure, the only rule that even mentions "DimSpace" is the 
one governing DimShips!  So your DimShips move through a non-existant 
space... or one that is only defined in terms of the DimShips.  Not to 
mention that "launching" does absolutely nothing to the state of the 
DimShip... it is exactly the same launched and not launched...  There are 
holes big enough to march several legions of Gremlins through this rule, 
and I haven't even started nitpicking yet!  (Geez, I've been really 
slacking off on my job as Nitpicking King... I think I'm going to go over 
the potential ballot...)

Once you make the appropriate definitions, I'm sure this will work, but as 
it stands you've got a white elephant on your hands.

Bean

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:52:21 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal:
  Do your best to change the subject. 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 02:31 AM 20/04/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > attempt at judicial reform) and proposals 275 and 276 (My attempt to take
> > a referrendum on the issue... neither passed.  I personally think that
> > 276 is an especially good piece of work).  What do you think of
> > those?
>
>  How about (when the clock restarts) I replace my proposal with a
>slightly tidied up 276?

I'm cool with that, but I'd suggest waiting until after the ballot is 
issued and shooting for next nweeks ballot.... we'll be able to discuss it 
at least...

Bean

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 17:53:54 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/20/02 at 10:56 AM Wonko wrote:

>But one's actual points cannot go negative, so could not one spend points
>you don't have using virtual points, then get those points back by
>disabling
>the DimShips points?
>
>-- 
>Wonko

Ya know...I looked all over the rules, and I couldn't find anywhere that=
 says points flat-out can't be negative.  Rule 21 does say, "whenever a=
 rule states that a player loses points, the number of points in eir=
 possession shall be lowered accordingly, but it shall never become less=
 than zero"; this could be interpreted to mean that specific point losses=
 can't take points below zero, but not necessarily that points can't be set=
 to a negative value.

If that argument is valid, it means one can use a dimship to spend oneself=
 down to minus-100 actual points, and thus be 100 points further away from=
 scoring a win.

If that argument isn't valid, I'd note that since the virtual points are a=
 displacement from actual points as a result of the buoyancy value,=
 lowering virtual points by spending them should also lower actual points,=
 with the buoyancy staying the same; therefore, one's spending of virtual=
 points should stop at a point where the buoyancy would drive the actual=
 points below zero.

As for other dimensions, there's nothing I can find that says any of them=
 can't be negative.  In fact, I should be able to spend myself into an=
 infinite deficit on style points buying filibuster titles for myself.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:14:36 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: DimShips do.... what exactly?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/20/02 at 4:48 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>At 04:40 PM 20/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 07:06 AM 20/04/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Your dimensions per se don't change, but, thanks to being in a DimShip 
>>>with ballast and buoyancy set, you are displaced in dimspace, so that 
>>>it's as if you're at a different dimensional location -- a virtual 
>>>location, if you will.
>>
>>I got that as the intention, however I don't think the rule is strong 
>>enough to actually make it happen.  It doesn't say what a vitrual 
>>dimensional location is, nor does it override any rules.   So basically, 
>>for anything invoving DimShips, sure, you're at this virtual 
>>location.  But for any other purpose, your dimensions sre read as they 
>>are.  So they're a bit self-centric to be of any use.
>>
>>>Which means (a) if you use a dimship to spend points you don't have,
>your 
>>>actual points might go negative, and your virtual points would decrease 
>>>because they're just a displacement from your actual points; and (b) if 
>>>your dimship gets shot full of holes your actual points apply.
>>
>>Doesn't override the necessary rules.  This is a complex bugger that's 
>>going to take some effort to work out.  As it stands I think the DimShips=
 
>>are just a meaningless way to spend 100 points, and I'll CFJ to that 
>>effect if necessary.  Good luck with doing anything with them.
>
>And for good measure, the only rule that even mentions "DimSpace" is the 
>one governing DimShips!  So your DimShips move through a non-existant 
>space... or one that is only defined in terms of the DimShips.  Not to 
>mention that "launching" does absolutely nothing to the state of the 
>DimShip... it is exactly the same launched and not launched...  There are 
>holes big enough to march several legions of Gremlins through this rule, 
>and I haven't even started nitpicking yet!  (Geez, I've been really 
>slacking off on my job as Nitpicking King... I think I'm going to go over 
>the potential ballot...)
>
>Once you make the appropriate definitions, I'm sure this will work, but as=
 
>it stands you've got a white elephant on your hands.
>
>Bean

Rule 407: "A Space is a part of the game state in which it is possible to=
 move in multiple directions. In general, a player's position in each=
 direction is called a Component. 

"The two Spaces that currently exist are the Dimensions, where each=
 Dimension is a Component, and the Grid, where the X and Y values are the=
 two Components."

"DimSpace" is a shortened form of "Dimensions Space", which I referred to=
 when creating DimShips.  Rule 407 defines a Space called the Dimensions --=
 as in, the Dimensions Space, or DimSpace.

>From the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary: "launch (v): a : to set (a=
 boat or ship) afloat b : to give (a person) a start <launched in a new=
 career> c (1) : to originate or set in motion : INITIATE, INTRODUCE (2) :=
 to get off to a good start"

While the term "launch" is not defined in the rules, it does have a=
 definition as part of the English language, which includes one that can be=
 applied to rule-defined objects that have events and actions associated=
 with them: to originate or set in motion.  Purchasing a DimShip takes care=
 of originating it; that leaves setting it in motion.  Since a DimShip is=
 something that moves in DimSpace, the statement that it's launched at the=
 end of the nweek suggests that it can't move in DimSpace until the end of=
 the nweek it's bought.

This isn't to say the rule's chutzpah shouldn't be adjusted...

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to change the subject. 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:26:11 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I'm cool with that, but I'd suggest waiting until after the ballot is 
> issued and shooting for next nweeks ballot.... we'll be able to discuss it 
> at least...

 Yar, OK :)

 WC.

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 23:01:10 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/21/02 at 1:13 AM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>{{
>{{
>__All Right Thinking People__
>
>It is an act of heresy to state that Black is a Colour, or that Black
>is a Color.
>}}
>}}

Is this serious?  If so, you might instead want to rephrase that it be=
 added to the LOGAS.  Otherwise, since there's no provision for acts of=
 heresy, or religion in general, in the rules, this is a bigger no-op than=
 Bean is claiming my dimships to be.

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 23:03:57 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>>Burn the witch!
 >>
 >> I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
 >>
 > But you said black was a colour. Burn you!
 >
 > -How is black not a color? And why does saying it is demand burning? And 
if
 > burning er is so important, pick up Bruce and hit er with it.-

What's an 'er'?

-*sigh* I can never remember. Is is "er" or "em" to say "him/her?"-

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Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 23:38:14 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Proposal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

>>>> Burn the witch!
>>> 
>>> I do not weigh exactly the same as a duck.
>>> 
>> But you said black was a colour. Burn you!
>> 
>> -How is black not a color? And why does saying it is demand burning? And
> if
>> burning er is so important, pick up Bruce and hit er with it.-
> 
> What's an 'er'?
> 
> -*sigh* I can never remember. Is is "er" or "em" to say "him/her?"-
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> 
Em.

See rule 7 - It outlines all the Spivak pronouns.
-- 
Wonko

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:40:51 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>  Is this serious?  If so, you might instead want to rephrase that it be=
>  added to the LOGAS.  Otherwise, since there's no provision for acts of=
>  heresy, or religion in general, in the rules, this is a bigger no-op than=
>  Bean is claiming my dimships to be.

 Just 'cos it's immediatly a no-op doesn't mean it always will be....

 Consider your initial DimShip proposal.

 WC.

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do your best to
 change the subject.
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:35:25 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [Proposal] Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Do 
>your best to change the subject.
>Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
>
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jonathan David Amery wrote:
> > {{
> > All CFJs that are currently decided to be True are part of Game Custom.
> > }}
>
>Woah.  That's scary.  That appears to a) define Game Custom as a "thing",
>and notably what is part of it, and b) does not address the problems of
>CFJing illegal actions (which never really happen because they're against
>the rules).  Regardless, this proposal is gonna get a big fat NO from me
>on the ballot.
>
>Bean
>

I have some of the same problems with this as Bean... (sorry, I'm a bit 
behind on the discuss list)  I think this is a perfect proposal to SHELVE, 
and I would ask people to think about SHELVEing it.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

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From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:38:15 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > The Voice queues a Grid move and buys a DimShip.
> > Bean goes for a block, dropping a Big Rock on (20,10) (cost 15 pts).
> > Wonko drops a second Rock, obliterating the first one, and the Siren 
>that
> > was on the first one. Ooh, squishy.
> > (Wonko is out 18 points.)
>
>So I help my team get 20 points each by spending 18 of them before I even
>get them? Woo! Go money management skills!

>Wonko

In our world of money, money management is really the sexiest job there is.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

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Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:46:25 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: The Clock is ON
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Just so you know.

The weekend wasn't nearly as much fun as I'd hoped, sadly. After the third
wrecked car in our group, things started to really go downhill.

But the Clock is back ON. I'll be going through the backlog of email and
finding all the "please recognize this after the clock is turned back on"
stuff later this evening, after I get the largest chunks of mud outta the
car.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Evening)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:44:02 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In our world of money, money management is really the sexiest job there is.

-That's twice in two days... Where are you getting these from, if you don't 
mind my asking? They sound like lines from somewhere, vaguely familiar...-

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:24:56 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

<CFJ>
<statement>Baron von Skippy is the defendant for this CFJ.</statement>
<defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant>
</CFJ>

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:18:43 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

<CFJ>
<statement>Baron von Skippy is the defendant for this CFJ.</statement>
<defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant>
</CFJ>

-Okay, you've lost it. This is one of the more gratuitous CFJs I've ever 
seen, and given your history of CFJs, that's saying something. So, how 
should the Judge be selected? If this CFJ is judges FALSE, I'm an eligible 
Judge. If TRUE, I'm not. So, which should Mr. A predict when selecting a 
Judge?-

                                                                -BvS-

-P.S. Oh, I almost forgot. What is wrong with you? What possible purpose 
could this CFJ serve? Answer either or both of those.-

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:36:25 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> <CFJ>
> <statement>Baron von Skippy is the defendant for this CFJ.</statement>
> <defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant>
> </CFJ>
>
> -Okay, you've lost it. This is one of the more gratuitous CFJs I've ever 
> seen, and given your history of CFJs, that's saying something.
>
You think? Then you've largely missed the point of the others, since most of them were anything but.

> So, how 
> should the Judge be selected? If this CFJ is judges FALSE, I'm an eligible 
> Judge. If TRUE, I'm not. So, which should Mr. A predict when selecting a 
> judge?-
>
>                                                                -BvS-
>
Actually, those are rather interesting points (and therefore largely contradict the "gratuitous" thing). Search the mailing list archives for "thread split".

> -P.S. Oh, I almost forgot. What is wrong with you? What possible purpose 
> could this CFJ serve? Answer either or both of those.-
>
Nothing, and none (although - what CFJ? I've only submitted one today, and this isn't it).

uin.
-- 

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:53:53 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: N heads are better than one
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In Glotmorf's __N heads are better than one__ prop., it says

"Create a new rule, changing the @@@@@ below into "Clubs" if Prop.
Five-Eight-Three passes, and into "Groups defined in Rule Five-Seven-Eight,
also known as Clubs," if Prop. Five-Eight-Three doesn't pass: "

Prop. 583 does not mention anything called Clubs. Is this a mistake, or am I
missing something here?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:55:22 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: N heads are better than one
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/24/02 at 4:53 PM Wonko wrote:

>In Glotmorf's __N heads are better than one__ prop., it says
>
>"Create a new rule, changing the @@@@@ below into "Clubs" if Prop.
>Five-Eight-Three passes, and into "Groups defined in Rule=
 Five-Seven-Eight,
>also known as Clubs," if Prop. Five-Eight-Three doesn't pass: "
>
>Prop. 583 does not mention anything called Clubs. Is this a mistake, or am
>I
>missing something here?
>
>-- 
>Wonko

It's a mistake.  I'd meant to base it on the Turning Straw into Gold prop,=
 but I submitted the prop in question first.  Unless Mr. A is willing to=
 acknowledge it as a typo, it's probably stuck the way it is...though if=
 prop 595 or prop 586 passes or prop 583 doesn't there's no functional=
 problem.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:57:23 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/24/02 at 11:18 AM Alex Truelsen wrote:

><CFJ>
><statement>Baron von Skippy is the defendant for this CFJ.</statement>
><defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant>
></CFJ>
>
>-Okay, you've lost it. This is one of the more gratuitous CFJs I've ever 
>seen, and given your history of CFJs, that's saying something. So, how 
>should the Judge be selected? If this CFJ is judges FALSE, I'm an eligible=
 
>Judge. If TRUE, I'm not. So, which should Mr. A predict when selecting a 
>Judge?-
>
>                                                                -BvS-
>
>-P.S. Oh, I almost forgot. What is wrong with you? What possible purpose 
>could this CFJ serve? Answer either or both of those.-

Dude.  He sent this to spoon-discuss.  That means it's pure entertainment.=
  Or your reaction to it is...:)

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:02:21 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
>Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:57:23 -0400
>
>On 4/24/02 at 11:18 AM Alex Truelsen wrote:
>
> ><CFJ>
> ><statement>Baron von Skippy is the defendant for this CFJ.</statement>
> ><defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant>
> ></CFJ>
> >
> >-Okay, you've lost it. This is one of the more gratuitous CFJs I've ever
> >seen, and given your history of CFJs, that's saying something. So, how
> >should the Judge be selected? If this CFJ is judges FALSE, I'm an 
>eligible
> >Judge. If TRUE, I'm not. So, which should Mr. A predict when selecting a
> >Judge?-
> >
> >                                                                -BvS-
> >
> >-P.S. Oh, I almost forgot. What is wrong with you? What possible purpose
> >could this CFJ serve? Answer either or both of those.-
>
>Dude.  He sent this to spoon-discuss.  That means it's pure entertainment.  
>Or your reaction to it is...:)
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>

Here here!  Someone who sees this silly feud for what it is: silly.  Three 
cheers for Glotmorf!

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:11:35 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Judgement on CFJ 615
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/24/02 at 9:25 AM Karin L. Kross wrote:
> 
>> CFJ 615/0
>> CFJ by Wonko: Changing Votes
>> 
>> Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not
>> change it.
>> 
>> I judge this to be TRUE.
> 
> Bathed on the judgment of C F J six hundred fifteen, I make thith C F J:
> 
> Wonko could not have changed eir vote last nweek on my inthta-ruleth prop.
> Therefore, eir vote on it wath "yeth", and voteth on that prop need to be
> counted again.
> 
> Glotmorf

Hmm... I see the following words here with more than two syllables: 615,
proposal.

Until your Doctor Seuss prop. passes, you can't quote from other msgs

On the other hand, I don't recall ever submitting the CFJ in question. I
posted it to discuss, and said I intended to send it to business, but I
don't believe I ever got around to sending it to business.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:15:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Judgement on CFJ 615
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> >> CFJ 615/0
> >> CFJ by Wonko: Changing Votes
> 
> On the other hand, I don't recall ever submitting the CFJ in question. I
> posted it to discuss, and said I intended to send it to business, but I
> don't believe I ever got around to sending it to business.
 
Hmm.  Well, it's definitely on the Current CFJs page at the B 
Nomic web site, with my name attached to it... (Good thing I 
checked, too, seeing as how I had two CFJs.  Would prefer no more 
stints on the LoMJ.)

-Congenital Optimist

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:58:19 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

This is in my mailbox...

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/19/02 at 11:31 PM Wonko wrote:

>This will be sent out as soon as the Clock's on
>
><CFJ>
>
>Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not change
>it.
>
>Defendant: None
>
>Analysis by Plaintiff:
>
>Rule 31 states "During Voting, players may change eir vote on a given=
 issue
>by submitting a different vote for that issue."
>
>However, the above process for changing votes is impossible to use, as a
>lower numbered rule, rule 30, states that "Each Player may cast exactly=
 one
>vote on each proposal on any given Ballot."
>
>Since submitting a different vote is forbidden, players may not change eir
>votes.
></CFJ>
>
>-- 
>Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 19:14:34 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> This is in my mailbox...
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 4/19/02 at 11:31 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> This will be sent out as soon as the Clock's on
>> 
>> <CFJ>
>> 
>> Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not change
>> it.
>> 
>> Defendant: None
>> 
>> Analysis by Plaintiff:
>> 
>> Rule 31 states "During Voting, players may change eir vote on a given issue
>> by submitting a different vote for that issue."
>> 
>> However, the above process for changing votes is impossible to use, as a
>> lower numbered rule, rule 30, states that "Each Player may cast exactly one
>> vote on each proposal on any given Ballot."
>> 
>> Since submitting a different vote is forbidden, players may not change eir
>> votes.
>> </CFJ>
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko
> 
> 

Check who it was sent to... "[email-masked]"
-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 20:49:18 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/24/02 at 7:14 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> This is in my mailbox...
>> 
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> 
>> On 4/19/02 at 11:31 PM Wonko wrote:
>> 
>>> This will be sent out as soon as the Clock's on
>>> 
>>> <CFJ>
>>> 
>>> Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not=
 change
>>> it.
>>> 
>>> Defendant: None
>>> 
>>> Analysis by Plaintiff:
>>> 
>>> Rule 31 states "During Voting, players may change eir vote on a given
>issue
>>> by submitting a different vote for that issue."
>>> 
>>> However, the above process for changing votes is impossible to use, as=
 a
>>> lower numbered rule, rule 30, states that "Each Player may cast exactly
>one
>>> vote on each proposal on any given Ballot."
>>> 
>>> Since submitting a different vote is forbidden, players may not change
>eir
>>> votes.
>>> </CFJ>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Wonko
>> 
>> 
>
>Check who it was sent to... "[email-masked]"
>-- 
>Wonko

Hm.  Fair enough.  Still, my CFJ wasn't based on your CFJ, existent or non.=
  It was based on Congenital Optimist's judgment of it, which exists=
 whether it was based on a real or an imaginary CFJ.  I'm happy with her=
 reasoning, and use it as the basis of my CFJ.

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:35:40 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Re: Judgement on C F J 6-1-5
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> Bathed on the judgment of C F J thicth hundred fifteen, I make thith C F J:
> 
> Wonko could not have changed eir vote latht nweek on my inthta-ruleth prop.
> 
> Therefore, eir vote on it wath "yeth", and voteth on that prop need to be
> counted again.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> (Ith that better, Wonko? :)

Okay, so I guess I voted yes on Insta-Rules.

They still don't work very well, though.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:38:41 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Re: Judgement on C F J 6-1-5
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> Bathed on the judgment of C F J thicth hundred fifteen, I make thith C F J:
> 
> Wonko could not have changed eir vote latht nweek on my inthta-ruleth prop.
> 
> Therefore, eir vote on it wath "yeth", and voteth on that prop need to be
> counted again.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> (Ith that better, Wonko? :)
> 
> 

Which is the CFJ statement? Is it "Wonko could not have changed...." or "Eir
vote on it wath "yeth"...."?
-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:45:09 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: One more CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> <CFJ>
> 
> Statement: Bean did not recieve 25 points for landing on a Shiny Thing; e
> only got 5.
> 
> Def: Bean
> </CFJ>

The rationale for this is that r394, Football, states "If after a player
runs, e occupies the same location as a Shiny Thing or a Scary Dark Thing,
eir score changes by only 1/5 of the amount defined in rule 301. This rule
supercedes rule 301 in this respect."

1/5 of 25 is 5.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 22:14:36 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Re: Judgement on C F J
  6-1-5
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/24/02 at 9:38 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> Bathed on the judgment of C F J thicth hundred fifteen, I make thith C F
>J:
>> 
>> Wonko could not have changed eir vote latht nweek on my inthta-ruleth
>prop.
>> 
>> Therefore, eir vote on it wath "yeth", and voteth on that prop need to=
 be
>> counted again.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> (Ith that better, Wonko? :)
>> 
>> 
>
>Which is the CFJ statement? Is it "Wonko could not have changed...." or
>"Eir
>vote on it wath "yeth"...."?
>-- 
>Wonko

Does a statement need to be a single sentence?  I'd thought the whole thing=
 collectively was the statement.

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 22:56:30 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Dude.  He sent this to spoon-discuss.  That means it's pure entertainment.  
Or your reaction to it is...:)

						Glotmorf

-I have to be observant? He's still lost it.-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:00:01 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJs: Cleaning Up...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 5:44 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Yuki is recused from CFJ 590, added to the LMJ, blah blah blah.
>
>CFJ 590 is assigned to The Reality Police.
>
>...dave

Mithter A, the judge you athigned to C-F-J 5-9-0 ith the thame player ath=
 the one who made the C-F-J, with a new name.

						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 07:04:46 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Judgement on C-F-J 6-1-8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> The thtatement made in thith C-F-J, at leatht in the litht of rethent C-F-Jth, ith:
>
> "If the Clock ith Off, no player may take any game-rel. actionth ecthept
> actionth which the ruleth thpec. thay may be taken while The Clock ith Off."
> 
> (Pleathe allow for the lithp.)
>
> I judge thith thtatement to be FALTHE.
>
[snip]
Seems reasonable, although it largely bypasses the actual point. ;-)

Do I have to actually CFJ the specific things in question again, or can they just be quietly unrecognised?

TRP.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 07:16:27 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: BALLOT, nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Yes, I'm sending this to the discuss list. Still works ("...to the admin...").

> Proposal 566/0: The Ministers of the Realm (Bean)
YES.

> Proposal 567/0: Making things more square (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 568/0: Champagne gets you drunk too! (Wild Card)
YES.

>Proposal 569/0: A fix for Wonko (Bean)
YES.

> Proposal 570/0: I rob from the rich! (Bean)
ABSTAIN.

> Proposal 571/0: Yawn (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 572/0: if we sqeeze up a bit we can all fit in (Naath)
NO.

> Proposal 582/0: Omnibus Proposal II: Electric Boogaloo (The Administrator)
YES.

> Proposal 583/0: I Ain't Dr. Seuss (Glotmorf)
YES.

> Proposal 584/2: The Newer Yeti (Wonko)
YES.

> Proposal 585/0: N Heads Really ARE Better Than 1! (Glotmorf)
NO.

> Proposal 586/0: Hey Spanky, Wanna Start A Club? (Glotmorf)
NO.

> Proposal 587/0: The End of the World (Wonko)
NO.

> Proposal 588/0: Flipping the Circuit Breaker (Rob)
NO.

> Proposal 589/0: Proper Disp. (Wonko)
NO.

> Proposal 591/0: And so you're free. (The Reality Police)
NO.

> Proposal 592/0: It will surely come. (The Reality Police)
YES.

> Proposal 593/0: And I bring you... (The Reality Police)
YES.

> Proposal 594/0: Just a figment of the telephone. (The Reality Police)
YES.

> Proposal 595/0: Swabbing the Deck (Glotmorf)
YES.

> Proposal 596/0: The Upper House (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 597/0: To Seek Out New Life, and New Cultures (Glotmorf)
NO. ("civilisations".)

> Proposal 598/0: Keep your hands off! (Wild Card)
NO.

> Proposal 599/0: Bruce ahoy! (Naath)
NO.

> Proposal 600/0: Balance (Dan)
NO.

> Proposal 601/1: The first rule is, you don't talk about it (Congenital
> 		Optimist)
NO.

> Proposal 602/0: Gnome Bags (The Voice)
NO.

> Proposal 603/0: Barkeep! More Gnomes! (The Voice)
NO.

> Proposal 604/0: Balance II (Dan)
NO.

> Proposal 605/0: Stretching the Bubble (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 607/2: Gnomes Up the Wazoo (Baron von Skippy)
NO.

> Proposal 608/0: Wait! It's Not Finished Yet! (Baron von Skippy)
NO.

> Proposal 609/0: I Only Have Two Hands! (And an infinite number of
>		limbs...) (The Voice)
NO.

> Proposal 610/0: Whoosh! SPLAT! (Wonko)
NO.

> Proposal 611/0: Freeze! (Wonko)
NO.

> Proposal 612/0: Buried Treasure (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 613/0: Fry! (Wonko)
NO.

> Proposal 614/0: Judicial Reform (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 616/0: All Right Thinking People (Wild Card)
YES.

> Proposal 617/0: Sorry Dan, You Can't Do That. (The Voice)
NO.

uin.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 07:23:24 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Judgement on CFJ 615
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> CFJ 615/0
> CFJ by Wonko: Changing Votes
> 
> Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not 
> change it. 
> 
> I judge this to be TRUE.
>
Appeal forthcoming. (If I have one proosal, and I revise it, I have 1 proosal.)

uin.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:09:33 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Dude.  He sent this to spoon-discuss.  That means it's pure entertainment.  
> Or your reaction to it is...:)
>
>						Glotmorf
>
> -I have to be observant?
>
Research, then complain...

> He's still lost it.-
>
No, no, no. Repetition makes things *funny*; it doesn't make them *true*.

For example:
The sky is green. (False).
The sky is green. (Still false).

But:
<defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant> (Made me laugh).

uin.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:10:38 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: CFJ: Mu
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

[[This time with the right subject line...]]
> Dude.  He sent this to spoon-discuss.  That means it's pure entertainment.  
> Or your reaction to it is...:)
>
>						Glotmorf
>
> -I have to be observant?
>
Research, then complain...

>He's still lost it.-
>
No, no, no. Repetition makes things *funny*; it doesn't make them *true*.

For example:
The sky is green. (False).
The sky is green. (Still false).

But:
<defendant>Baron von Skippy.</defendant> (Made me laugh).

uin.
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:27:51 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Thursday Morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> As mentioned previously, CFJ 590 is assigned to Glotmorf. (See? You can
> point out my slip-ups without using CFJs. Works quite well, actually.)
>
In your Daily Recognizer for last Thursday evening, you recognised a bunch of stuff that was done while the clock was off.

TRP.
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:18:33 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Judgement on C-F-J 6-1-8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/25/02 at 7:35 AM The Voice wrote:

>I appeal Glotmorf's ruling on C-F-J 6-1-8, on the grounds that nowhere in 
>the ruleset does it say that rules with no given Chutzpah value have a 
>Chutzpah of zero.
>
>-0-Thus Spake The Voice-0-

Actually, Rule 217 says that new rules that don't have a chutzpah set get a=
 chutzpah of 1, but Rule 3 went in before chutzpah was defined, and Rule=
 217 doesn't say what chutzpah goes to previously existing rules.  I'd bet=
 on 0, since other changable ratings start out that way.  But whether it's=
 0 or 1, Rule 394 has a chutzpah of 2, which means you can still tackle=
 while the clock is off.  And therefore, it's not true that no action not=
 specifically stated can be taken while the clock is off.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:22:03 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: BALLOT, nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 7:16 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

>> Proposal 597/0: To Seek Out New Life, and New Cultures (Glotmorf)
>NO. ("civilisations".)

I know, I know.  But my entropy's too high to say "civilizations", and=
 "civs." just doesn't carry the same oomph.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:13:09 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Prop 588
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I'm real embarrassed about not noticing this before...Isn't this proposal=
 illegal?  It's not creating a rule, it's not changing a rule, and it's not=
 changing the game state; it's saying how the game state should be changed=
 some time in the indefinite future.

Can we even do that?  Doesn't the default case, combined with the rule that=
 says actions happen when they're recognized (which voting tends to do in=
 terms of a proposal), prevent us from saying we can't change the future?

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:26:23 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Judgement on C-F-J 6-1-8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> 
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 4/25/02 at 7:35 AM The Voice wrote:
> 
>> I appeal Glotmorf's ruling on C-F-J 6-1-8, on the grounds that nowhere in
>> the ruleset does it say that rules with no given Chutzpah value have a
>> Chutzpah of zero.
>> 
>> -0-Thus Spake The Voice-0-
> 
> Actually, Rule 217 says that new rules that don't have a chutzpah set get a
> chutzpah of 1, but Rule 3 went in before chutzpah was defined, and Rule 217
> doesn't say what chutzpah goes to previously existing rules.  I'd bet on 0,
> since other changable ratings start out that way.  But whether it's 0 or 1,
> Rule 394 has a chutzpah of 2, which means you can still tackle while the clock
> is off.  And therefore, it's not true that no action not specifically stated
> can be taken while the clock is off.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 

Rules before Chutzpah have Chutzpah 0. It was in the prop. that created
Chutzpah - "Assign all rules a Chutzpah of zero."

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:28:13 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Judgement on CFJ 615
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

>> CFJ 615/0
>> CFJ by Wonko: Changing Votes
>> 
>> Statement: Once a player has cast a vote on a proposal, e may not
>> change it. 
>> 
>> I judge this to be TRUE.
>> 
> Appeal forthcoming. (If I have one proosal, and I revise it, I have 1
> proosal.)
> 
> uin.

You can't appeal. The CFJ never happened.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:28:29 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Prop 588
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> I'm real embarrassed about not noticing this before...Isn't this proposal
> illegal?  It's not creating a rule, it's not changing a rule, and it's not
> changing the game state; it's saying how the game state should be changed some
> time in the indefinite future.
> 
> Can we even do that?  Doesn't the default case, combined with the rule that
> says actions happen when they're recognized (which voting tends to do in terms
> of a proposal), prevent us from saying we can't change the future?
> 
> Glotmorf

What about the rule about "proposing a rule"? Rob said,

I propose a rule: 
{{
__Flipping the Circuit Breaker__

Immediately after any Player is awarded a Win, a new Rule is
created with a Chutzpah of 9, with the text:
{{ __No Win For You__

Players may not win.

}}
}}

That's creating a rule.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:20:37 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Voteth for nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 04:10:02PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> Rob, dahling...I don't even know if you can do what your prop wanth to do.  Ith not changing the ruleth, ith not making a rule, ith not changing the game state; ith thaying what thould happen thome time in the future.  I don't think there'th a plathe in the game thtate to fit that in.

Wonko had it right. It makes a rule because I proposed it as a rule, in
accordance with "Elimination of Boilerplate".

But I guess you can't change your vote.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:41:37 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Voteth for nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 6:20 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 04:10:02PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
>> Rob, dahling...I don't even know if you can do what your prop wanth to
>do.  Ith not changing the ruleth, ith not making a rule, ith not changing
>the game state; ith thaying what thould happen thome time in the future. 
>I don't think there'th a plathe in the game thtate to fit that in.
>
>Wonko had it right. It makes a rule because I proposed it as a rule, in
>accordance with "Elimination of Boilerplate".
>
>But I guess you can't change your vote.
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Sounds like a typo.  The "I propose a rule" shouldn't have been removed.  I=
 could whine...

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:06:21 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: sushi
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 10:02 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>I give the sushi to acoustic
>
>Bean

Now, if people would just break down and implement the babelizing...:)

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:13:12 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Typo in Prop 5-8-8?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the wordth "I
> propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making a rule
> that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with a typo in
> it.
> 
> Pleathe correct Prop 5-8-8.  My vote on the correct verthion of it ith "yeth".
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
Sorry, but you can't do that.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:18:51 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 10:13 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the wordth
>"I
>> propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making a
>rule
>> that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with a
>typo in
>> it.
>> 
>> Pleathe correct Prop 5-8-8.  My vote on the correct verthion of it ith
>"yeth".
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> 
>Sorry, but you can't do that.
>-- 
>Wonko

Thought it was worth a try.  After all, if I cast a vote on an incorrect=
 version of the proposal, the existentialists might argue my vote was cast=
 on a nonexistent proposal, and therefore my vote on that nonexistent=
 proposal can't exist either.  Certainly, if I cast my vote on a=
 nonexistent proposal, I didn't cast it on the actual, correct proposal.

Gee...is existence a dimension?  And does it have values other than 0 and=
 1?

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:23:46 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: 'Nother thang
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> Mithter A...There theemth to be a problem with thpoon-bithneth.  Thome emailth
> don't have From nameth, and thome don't have thubjecth. At leatht, not by the
> time I get them.  The header lookth like ith lothing line breakth.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
Mine seems to work fine
-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:24:43 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: 'Nother thang
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 10:23 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> Mithter A...There theemth to be a problem with thpoon-bithneth.  Thome
>emailth
>> don't have From nameth, and thome don't have thubjecth. At leatht, not
>by the
>> time I get them.  The header lookth like ith lothing line breakth.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> 
>Mine seems to work fine
>-- 
>Wonko

Miss Optimist's votes didn't come in with a missing From name?

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:27:10 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/25/02 at 10:13 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the wordth
>> "I
>>> propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making a
>> rule
>>> that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with a
>> typo in
>>> it.
>>> 
>>> Pleathe correct Prop 5-8-8.  My vote on the correct verthion of it ith
>> "yeth".
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>>> 
>>> 
>> Sorry, but you can't do that.
>> --
>> Wonko
> 
> Thought it was worth a try.  After all, if I cast a vote on an incorrect
> version of the proposal, the existentialists might argue my vote was cast on a
> nonexistent proposal, and therefore my vote on that nonexistent proposal can't
> exist either.  Certainly, if I cast my vote on a nonexistent proposal, I
> didn't cast it on the actual, correct proposal.
> 
> Gee...is existence a dimension?  And does it have values other than 0 and 1?
> 
> Glotmorf

Actually, R4 - "Every modification to a revisable object that does not
eliminate it from play creates a new version of it."

OTOH, R19 - "Proposals may only be revised by their original author."
suggests that the Admin may not be able to rectify things at all.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:29:27 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: 'Nother thang
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/25/02 at 10:23 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> Mithter A...There theemth to be a problem with thpoon-bithneth.  Thome
>> emailth
>>> don't have From nameth, and thome don't have thubjecth. At leatht, not
>> by the
>>> time I get them.  The header lookth like ith lothing line breakth.
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>>> 
>>> 
>> Mine seems to work fine
>> -- 
>> Wonko
> 
> Miss Optimist's votes didn't come in with a missing From name?
> 
> Glotmorf

From: Karin L. Kross <[email-masked]>
Reply-to: [email-masked]
Date: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:58 PM
To: B Nomic Business <spoon [email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-business: My votes

-- 
Wonko

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:44:26 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 10:27 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> On 4/25/02 at 10:13 PM Wonko wrote:
>> 
>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>> 
>>>> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the=
 wordth
>>> "I
>>>> propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making
>a
>>> rule
>>>> that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with a
>>> typo in
>>>> it.
>>>> 
>>>> Pleathe correct Prop 5-8-8.  My vote on the correct verthion of it ith
>>> "yeth".
>>>> 
>>>> Glotmorf
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Sorry, but you can't do that.
>>> --
>>> Wonko
>> 
>> Thought it was worth a try.  After all, if I cast a vote on an incorrect
>> version of the proposal, the existentialists might argue my vote was
>cast on a
>> nonexistent proposal, and therefore my vote on that nonexistent proposal
>can't
>> exist either.  Certainly, if I cast my vote on a nonexistent proposal, I
>> didn't cast it on the actual, correct proposal.
>> 
>> Gee...is existence a dimension?  And does it have values other than 0
>and 1?
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>Actually, R4 - "Every modification to a revisable object that does not
>eliminate it from play creates a new version of it."
>
>OTOH, R19 - "Proposals may only be revised by their original author."
>suggests that the Admin may not be able to rectify things at all.
>
>-- 
>Wonko

What about r255, the typo rule?  One could argue that if a document has a=
 typo in it, it's a nonexistent form taking up space until the new,=
 typo-free form can come and take its place.  Hence, fixing a typo isn't a=
 revision...it's a rectification.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:35:58 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Typo in Prop 5-8-8?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:47:55PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the wordth "I propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making a rule that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with a typo in it.

See, here's the problem. "Proposing a rule" isn't in the proposal text;
it's an action, one that is slightly different than "proposing". There
would need to be some other way of listing proposed-rules in the
database.

Perhaps something like "Proposal 765/4 (Rule): Title Goes Here" instead
of "Proposal 765/4: Title Goes Here".

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:39:29 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:44:26PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> What about r255, the typo rule?  One could argue that if a document has a typo in it, it's a nonexistent form taking up space until the new, typo-free form can come and take its place.  Hence, fixing a typo isn't a revision...it's a rectification.

But rectification is a specific kind of revision - and thus it's
disallowed by R19.

I think that all rectifications made in the past 2 nweeks will have to
revert to what they were...
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:39:53 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Typo in Prop 5-8-8?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 11:35 PM  wrote:

>On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:47:55PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
>> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the wordth
>"I propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making
>a rule that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop
>with a typo in it.
>
>See, here's the problem. "Proposing a rule" isn't in the proposal text;
>it's an action, one that is slightly different than "proposing". There
>would need to be some other way of listing proposed-rules in the
>database.
>
>Perhaps something like "Proposal 765/4 (Rule): Title Goes Here" instead
>of "Proposal 765/4: Title Goes Here".
>
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Well, boilerplate or no, the fact that you'd said, "I propose a rule"=
 should have indicated that that and the rule that contained a rule were=
 the contents of a proposal.  It would have been better if you'd put {{ and=
 }} around the whole thing, but, failing that, it should have been clear.=
  Therefore the proposal list should have shown one named entity enclosed=
 in {{ and }} that contained another named entity enclosed in {{ and }}.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:42:16 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/25/02 at 11:39 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:44:26PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
>> What about r255, the typo rule?  One could argue that if a document has
>a typo in it, it's a nonexistent form taking up space until the new,
>typo-free form can come and take its place.  Hence, fixing a typo isn't a
>revision...it's a rectification.
>
>But rectification is a specific kind of revision - and thus it's
>disallowed by R19.
>
>I think that all rectifications made in the past 2 nweeks will have to
>revert to what they were...
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Not if, as Wonko said, rules that existed before the chutzpah rule, r33,=
 have chutzpah of 0, and rules created after it have chutzpah of at least=
 1.  That means r255 probably has higher chutzpah than r19, and thus=
 supercedes it.

I think all the current chutzpah needs to be reviewed...

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:58:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Get Out The Vote
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

It's still nday 10, so those of you who haven't yet voted (and you know
who you are) have time to get out and vote!

Votes must be sent by 6 o'clock this evening, Central Time. Adjust as
needed.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:15:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> The Voice buys a Big Rock (targeted, cost 24 points). He gets a free Siren
> with that Rock, as a special bonus.

Oh boy, the irony of that makes my day.  I needed that :)

Bean

From: "The Voice" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday morning)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:20:18 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday 
>morning)
>Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:15:45 -0400 (EDT)
>
>On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> > The Voice buys a Big Rock (targeted, cost 24 points). He gets a free 
>Siren
> > with that Rock, as a special bonus.
>
>Oh boy, the irony of that makes my day.  I needed that :)
>
>Bean
>

Yeah, yeah...

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:22:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Get Out The Vote
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> It's still nday 10, so those of you who haven't yet voted (and you know
> who you are) have time to get out and vote!
>
> Votes must be sent by 6 o'clock this evening, Central Time. Adjust as
> needed.

Sorry Dave, but unless where you are you don't have Daylight Savings Time,
it's 7 o'clock.  If I'm not mistaken, CST is UTC-6, CDT is UTC-5.  For
those of you in EDT you've got until 8 :)

I think we should use internet time: http://www.swatch.com/  It is now
@846 :)  (Also check http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/worldtime/)  Well, maybe
that's not quite as good an idea as it orginally sounds... perhaps I'll
propose it and we'll see what happens :)

Bean

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:34:32 +0100 (BST)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Get Out The Vote
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Eric Gerlach wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> > Votes must be sent by 6 o'clock this evening, Central Time. Adjust as
> > needed.
> Sorry Dave, but unless where you are you don't have Daylight Savings Time,
> it's 7 o'clock.  If I'm not mistaken, CST is UTC-6, CDT is UTC-5.  For
> those of you in EDT you've got until 8 :)
> 
> I think we should use internet time: http://www.swatch.com/  It is now
> @846 :)  (Also check http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/worldtime/)  Well, maybe
> that's not quite as good an idea as it orginally sounds... perhaps I'll
> propose it and we'll see what happens :)
>
IIRC, this nomic in fact runs on UTC, which bears a significant
resembalence to GMT, neither of which are aflicted with summer time...

cheers,
Iain

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Get Out The Vote
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, ID Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> > > Votes must be sent by 6 o'clock this evening, Central Time. Adjust as
> > > needed.
> > Sorry Dave, but unless where you are you don't have Daylight Savings Time,
> > it's 7 o'clock.  If I'm not mistaken, CST is UTC-6, CDT is UTC-5.  For
> > those of you in EDT you've got until 8 :)
> >
> > I think we should use internet time: http://www.swatch.com/  It is now
> > @846 :)  (Also check http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/worldtime/)  Well, maybe
> > that's not quite as good an idea as it orginally sounds... perhaps I'll
> > propose it and we'll see what happens :)
> >
> IIRC, this nomic in fact runs on UTC, which bears a significant
> resembalence to GMT, neither of which are aflicted with summer time...

Yes, that's true, but when Dave says "Get your votes in by 6 o'clock
Central", he's converting to local time.  And that conversion changed
recently from Standard to Daylight.  So the nday (and the nweek) cycle at
7 o'clock CDT (UTC-5) and 8 o'clock EDT (UTC-4).

Bean

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:57:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Aproposalwhichiskindahardtoreadbutyoushouldreaditanyway.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, The Voice wrote:
> {{ __Iwantorunnow!__
>
> Amendtherule301byreplacingthefirstsentenceofthetenthparagraphwiththe
> following-0-delimitedtext:
>
> -0-
> MovesontheGridhappenwhentheyarerecognizedintheorderofwhentheyare
> recognizedwhichmakesthingseasier.
> -0-
>
> }}

You do realise that if this were implemented at the beginning of the nweek
I would have tackled you *long* ago, and already gotten rid of the
football :)

As it stands, I can't tackle you this nweek... you should be happy about
that.

Bean

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Get Out The Vote 
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:01:00 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> IIRC, this nomic in fact runs on UTC, which bears a significant
> resembalence to GMT, neither of which are aflicted with summer time...

 Indeed - UTC rarely varies from GMT by more than a second.  (GMT
being defined by the mean length of a day, and UTC by the SI
definition of the second).

 WC.

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 17:51:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: unofficial results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Nothing's official until I'm able to get the final vote result posted, and
make all the requisite rules creations/changes, but here's a short
version:

Stuff that passes: The Ministers proposal, my Omnibus Proposal, The Newer
Yeti, Dr. Seuss, The Upper House, both of the "More Gnomes!" proposals

Stuff that fails: Buried Treasure, heresy, everything by UIN

Stuff that gets shelved: Judicial Reform

I'll try to get all those official changes made tonight.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:40:15 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/25/02 at 10:27 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> On 4/25/02 at 10:13 PM Wonko wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>>> 
>>>>> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the wordth
>>>> "I
>>>>> propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath making
>> a
>>>> rule
>>>>> that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with a
>>>> typo in
>>>>> it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pleathe correct Prop 5-8-8.  My vote on the correct verthion of it ith
>>>> "yeth".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Glotmorf
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> Sorry, but you can't do that.
>>>> --
>>>> Wonko
>>> 
>>> Thought it was worth a try.  After all, if I cast a vote on an incorrect
>>> version of the proposal, the existentialists might argue my vote was
>> cast on a
>>> nonexistent proposal, and therefore my vote on that nonexistent proposal
>> can't
>>> exist either.  Certainly, if I cast my vote on a nonexistent proposal, I
>>> didn't cast it on the actual, correct proposal.
>>> 
>>> Gee...is existence a dimension?  And does it have values other than 0
>> and 1?
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> Actually, R4 - "Every modification to a revisable object that does not
>> eliminate it from play creates a new version of it."
>> 
>> OTOH, R19 - "Proposals may only be revised by their original author."
>> suggests that the Admin may not be able to rectify things at all.
>> 
>> --
>> Wonko
> 
> What about r255, the typo rule?  One could argue that if a document has a typo
> in it, it's a nonexistent form taking up space until the new, typo-free form
> can come and take its place.  Hence, fixing a typo isn't a revision...it's a
> rectification.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 

Revision isn't defined, so we must use the standard english definition - To
revise is to reconsider and change or modify. The proposal said one thing,
then changed to say another; it was clearly modified.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:41:52 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/25/02 at 11:39 PM Rob Speer wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 10:44:26PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
>>> What about r255, the typo rule?  One could argue that if a document has
>> a typo in it, it's a nonexistent form taking up space until the new,
>> typo-free form can come and take its place.  Hence, fixing a typo isn't a
>> revision...it's a rectification.
>> 
>> But rectification is a specific kind of revision - and thus it's
>> disallowed by R19.
>> 
>> I think that all rectifications made in the past 2 nweeks will have to
>> revert to what they were...
>> --
>> Rob Speer
> 
> Not if, as Wonko said, rules that existed before the chutzpah rule, r33, have
> chutzpah of 0, and rules created after it have chutzpah of at least 1.  That
> means r255 probably has higher chutzpah than r19, and thus supercedes it.
> 
> I think all the current chutzpah needs to be reviewed...
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
I'm terribly sorry, I meant 1. All rules have Chutzpah 1. In fact, a
Chutzpah of zero would be forbidden, as Chutzpah must be a positive integer.
-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 00:06:34 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Changing votes
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/27/02 at 9:40 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> On 4/25/02 at 10:27 PM Wonko wrote:
>> 
>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>> 
>>>> On 4/25/02 at 10:13 PM Wonko wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mithter A...Both Rob and Wonko thay Prop 5-8-8 uthed to have the
>wordth
>>>>> "I
>>>>>> propothe a rule" in it, yet Prop 5-8-8 didn't thow that it wath
>making
>>> a
>>>>> rule
>>>>>> that contained a rule.  Therefore my vote wath bathed on a prop with
>a
>>>>> typo in
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pleathe correct Prop 5-8-8.  My vote on the correct verthion of it
>ith
>>>>> "yeth".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Glotmorf
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Sorry, but you can't do that.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Wonko
>>>> 
>>>> Thought it was worth a try.  After all, if I cast a vote on an
>incorrect
>>>> version of the proposal, the existentialists might argue my vote was
>>> cast on a
>>>> nonexistent proposal, and therefore my vote on that nonexistent
>proposal
>>> can't
>>>> exist either.  Certainly, if I cast my vote on a nonexistent proposal,
>I
>>>> didn't cast it on the actual, correct proposal.
>>>> 
>>>> Gee...is existence a dimension?  And does it have values other than 0
>>> and 1?
>>>> 
>>>> Glotmorf
>>> 
>>> Actually, R4 - "Every modification to a revisable object that does not
>>> eliminate it from play creates a new version of it."
>>> 
>>> OTOH, R19 - "Proposals may only be revised by their original author."
>>> suggests that the Admin may not be able to rectify things at all.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Wonko
>> 
>> What about r255, the typo rule?  One could argue that if a document has
>a typo
>> in it, it's a nonexistent form taking up space until the new, typo-free
>form
>> can come and take its place.  Hence, fixing a typo isn't a
>revision...it's a
>> rectification.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>
>Revision isn't defined, so we must use the standard english definition -=
 To
>revise is to reconsider and change or modify. The proposal said one thing,
>then changed to say another; it was clearly modified.
>
>-- 
>Wonko

The key word there isn't "modify"...it's "reconsider".  It implies a change=
 of the intent of the one making the proposal: "I have thought it over, and=
 I have decided I would rather be saying this new thing instead of what I=
 was saying before."

A typo, however, is a mistake, something that was not part of the=
 proposer's original intent, especially if that mistake was introduced by=
 someone other than the proposer.  Correcting a typo, therefore, is not=
 reconsidering and modifying intent, but is in fact producing a reflection=
 of the original intent, which wasn't reflected earlier.  Since a proposal=
 with a typo isn't a true expression of the proposer's intent, it isn't the=
 real proposal; the real one is the one without the typo.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 02:40:46 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Who brought the booze?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:14:37AM -0400, Alex Truelsen wrote:
> Tequila is an alcoholic drink whose quantity is measured in glasses. A 
> glass of Tequila raises a player's BAC by 2. A player may pay 3d3 points 
> for a glass of Tequila, the drinking of which will give them 2d3 Charm 
> points. If a player drinks more than 3 glasses of Tequila in one nweek, 
> that player goes into Limbo and must slur all messages to a public forum 
> for one nweek.

So getting drunk is a free ticket to Limbo? Count me in.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:33:53 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Who brought the booze?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/28/02 at 2:40 AM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 01:14:37AM -0400, Alex Truelsen wrote:
>> Tequila is an alcoholic drink whose quantity is measured in glasses. A 
>> glass of Tequila raises a player's BAC by 2. A player may pay 3d3 points=
 
>> for a glass of Tequila, the drinking of which will give them 2d3 Charm 
>> points. If a player drinks more than 3 glasses of Tequila in one nweek, 
>> that player goes into Limbo and must slur all messages to a public forum=
 
>> for one nweek.
>
>So getting drunk is a free ticket to Limbo? Count me in.
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Why just tequila?  One can get drunk off of wine too.  It's not as easy,=
 but it can be done.

And let's not forget Gatorade spiked with grain...

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:43:35 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business:
	Aproposalwhichiskindahardtoreadbutyoushouldreaditanyway.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth The Voice,

> {{ __Iwantorunnow!__
> 
> Amendtherule301byreplacingthefirstsentenceofthetenthparagraphwiththe
> following-0-delimitedtext:
> 
> -0-
> MovesontheGridhappenwhentheyarerecognizedintheorderofwhentheyare
> recognizedwhichmakesthingseasier.
> -0-
> 
> }}
> 
> ArectificationisforthcomingwhenIgetridofthisdammfish.
> 
> -acoustic
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> 

The Sushi rule allows you to add whitespace after you've put something
through Babel; you could run it through like this and then add the spaces
afterwords.

-- 
Wonko

From: "The Voice" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business:
 Aproposalwhichiskindahardtoreadbutyoushouldreaditanyway.
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:47:19 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: <[email-masked]>
>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: 
>Aproposalwhichiskindahardtoreadbutyoushouldreaditanyway.
>Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:43:35 -0400
>
>Quoth The Voice,
>
> > {{ __Iwantorunnow!__
> >
> > Amendtherule301byreplacingthefirstsentenceofthetenthparagraphwiththe
> > following-0-delimitedtext:
> >
> > -0-
> > MovesontheGridhappenwhentheyarerecognizedintheorderofwhentheyare
> > recognizedwhichmakesthingseasier.
> > -0-
> >
> > }}
> >
> > ArectificationisforthcomingwhenIgetridofthisdammfish.
> >
> > -acoustic
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> >
>
>The Sushi rule allows you to add whitespace after you've put something
>through Babel; you could run it through like this and then add the spaces
>afterwords.
>
>--
>Wonko
>

Yeahbutthatwouldgoagainstthespiritofthesushi,nowwouldn'tit?  
Iwouldn'twanttoundotheentirethingandmakemymessagesnormal,butIneedthemto
belegible.  I'llsettleforirritating.

-0-ThusSpakeTheVoice-0-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 13:58:21 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Prop. v.2
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/28/02 at 1:05 PM Wonko wrote:

>I change my prop. to:
>
>{{
>__[[Circumnavigating the Entropy Restrictions]]__
>
>
>Make this rule:
>
>{{
>__Dud Rule__
>
>[[
>This rule takes precedence over the rule entitled "The Wine List".
>If, at any time, these sentences are not surrounded by comment brackets,
>the
>rule entitled "The Wine List" has the following MIXN'MATCH delimited text
>appended to its text:
>MIXN'MATCH
>A Winter Gnome mixed with a Water Gnome yields an Ice Gnome.
>A Summer Gnome mixed with an Air Gnome yields a Fire Gnome.
>A Water Gnome mixed with an Herb Gnome yields a Sheep Gnome.
>A Winter Gnome mixed with a Summer Gnome, or a Fire Gnome mixed with a
>Water
>Gnome, yields a Yoyo Gnome.
>MIXN'MATCH
>after which this rule repeals itself.
>]]
>
>When this rule joins the set of rules, take out all ']'s and '['s from=
 this
>rule.
>}}
>}}
>[[I couldn't find any other way to get the word 'over' in between
>'precedence' and 'the' using 1 syll. words]]
> 
>-- 
>Wonk.

High chutzpah?  It doesn't really matter how high a chutzpah this rule=
 gets, since it'll go away upon passage anyway.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:07:06 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business:
  Aproposalwhichiskindahardtoreadbutyoushouldreaditanyway.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/28/02 at 12:47 PM The Voice wrote:

>>From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
>>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>>To: <[email-masked]>
>>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: 
>>Aproposalwhichiskindahardtoreadbutyoushouldreaditanyway.
>>Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:43:35 -0400
>>
>>Quoth The Voice,
>>
>> > {{ __Iwantorunnow!__
>> >
>> > Amendtherule301byreplacingthefirstsentenceofthetenthparagraphwiththe
>> > following-0-delimitedtext:
>> >
>> > -0-
>> > MovesontheGridhappenwhentheyarerecognizedintheorderofwhentheyare
>> > recognizedwhichmakesthingseasier.
>> > -0-
>> >
>> > }}
>> >
>> > ArectificationisforthcomingwhenIgetridofthisdammfish.
>> >
>> > -acoustic
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>> >
>>
>>The Sushi rule allows you to add whitespace after you've put something
>>through Babel; you could run it through like this and then add the spaces
>>afterwords.
>>
>>--
>>Wonko
>>
>
>Yeahbutthatwouldgoagainstthespiritofthesushi,nowwouldn'tit?  
>Iwouldn'twanttoundotheentirethingandmakemymessagesnormal,butIneedthemto
>belegible.  I'llsettleforirritating.
>
>
>-0-ThusSpakeTheVoice-0-

Maybe you will, but I won't. I'm not voting for this in its present form.=
  And since you've indicated the message does in fact reflect your intent=
 for it, the lack of whitespace doesn't constitute a typo.  You'll have to=
 modify it now.

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Who brought the booze?
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:14:53 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

So getting drunk is a free ticket to Limbo? Count me in.
--
Rob Speer

-I thought people might like that.-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:49:02 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Who brought the booze?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 02:14:53PM -0400, Alex Truelsen wrote:
> So getting drunk is a free ticket to Limbo? Count me in.
> 
> -I thought people might like that.-

See, what I meant was that if this rule passes, I'm definitely getting
drunk. Especially if I join Football, since that means I can drink lots
of Tequila, ascend from the Grid, and jump back down wherever I want to.

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:51:46 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Who brought the booze?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/28/02 at 4:49 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 02:14:53PM -0400, Alex Truelsen wrote:
>> So getting drunk is a free ticket to Limbo? Count me in.
>> 
>> -I thought people might like that.-
>
>See, what I meant was that if this rule passes, I'm definitely getting
>drunk. Especially if I join Football, since that means I can drink lots
>of Tequila, ascend from the Grid, and jump back down wherever I want to.
>
>-- 
>Rob Speer

While carrying the football.  We still have to sort that out, don't we?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:01:58 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: END OF WEEK stuff, nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 01:29:21AM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
> The Voice runs to (20,10). Eir team scores a Touchdown, even though The
> Voice almost trips over a Beer Can. The Voice, Wonko, and Baron von Skippy
> all score 20 points for the Touchdown. The Football relocates to the
> center of the Grid.

The center of the grid? As in (10, 10), where the Big Rock is?
-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Time to try out this Football thing
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:27:20 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I join Team Turquoise.

I run to (10, 11) and tackle Baron von Skippy.
--
Rob Speer

-Gah! Ambush! I thought at first it would be Glotmorf who got me... You 
realize, of course, this means war.-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 02:34:54 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: END OF WEEK stuff, nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/29/02 at 1:29 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>The Voice runs to (20,10). Eir team scores a Touchdown, even though The
>Voice almost trips over a Beer Can. The Voice, Wonko, and Baron von Skippy
>all score 20 points for the Touchdown. The Football relocates to the
>center of the Grid.

Wasn't The Voice next to a Big Rock with a Siren on it?  That should mean=
 The Voice can't quite make it to the end zone for eir team.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:03:14 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: I'm so stupid
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

OK, how come I have points... any points.  Looking at
this weeks ballot I thought I might just have managed
negative points... but no, I have 4.  So, where did I
pick up points from.

Naath
who is clueless, dispite not really being a newbie anymore.

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:13:43 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: I'm so stupid
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/29/02 at 12:03 PM Naath Thabana wrote:

>OK, how come I have points... any points.  Looking at
>this weeks ballot I thought I might just have managed
>negative points... but no, I have 4.  So, where did I
>pick up points from.
>
>Naath
>who is clueless, dispite not really being a newbie anymore.

Well, there's now Pinhead, whose actions result in people being awarded=
 points, so it looks like you got 11 right there...

But you won't hit negative points unless you go out of your way to do so,=
 because the Score rule says your points won't go below zero.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:24:12 +0100 (BST)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nitpick, question
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
> 
> BTW...I see "full names" on the roster.  Do they count as titles?
>  Can any player give emself a "full name"?  And can people be called
> by their full name as well as their roster name?

AFAIK, No (they are just the names we declared when we joined the game),
Yes, (we all already have, and someplayer, whose current name I cant
remember, keeps changing it...), and Yesish (arguably we should refer to
each other by our full names. Even when, as in BvS case, this would be
255 characters long...)

cheers,
Iain

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:23:07 +0100 (BST)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal 276 again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Jonathan David Amery wrote:

> Revise Rule 127 to read:
> {{
> __Judges__
> 
> When a Call for Inquiry has been made, the Admin shall randomly select
> one player among the allowed players to be the Judge. Allowed players
> for the purpose of this rule are all players excepting the Defendant,
> the Plaintiff and players on the LMJ. If that leaves no players
> allowed to be the Judge, then out of the players on the LMJ, the
> player who was placed on the LMJ first shall be the Judge.
> 
> In the event of a CFI naming the Admin as defendant, the duty of
> randomly selecting an Judge shall fall to the player with the highest
> Score. That player will also not be allowed to be a Judge for the CFI.
> }}
> 
And if there are no players on the LMJ? 

cheers,
Iain

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal 276 again... 
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:37:44 +0100
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>And if there are no players on the LMJ? 

 Then you only have 2 players.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nitpick, question
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:51:17 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

AFAIK, No (they are just the names we declared when we joined the game),
Yes, (we all already have, and someplayer, whose current name I cant
remember, keeps changing it...), and Yesish (arguably we should refer to
each other by our full names. Even when, as in BvS case, this would be
255 characters long...)

-Don't waste your breath with my full name, even if it isn't all of 255 
non-whitespace characters (I think it weighs in at around 150)... it was 
violently rectified when I joined the game.-

cheers,
Iain

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:17:18 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The number *hic* thou shalt drink to shall be
	three. Five is Right Ou... *thud*
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> 6- the player Trips and Falls, Fumbling the Ball.

What happens to em if e doesn't have the ball?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:57:39 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: RESULTS, nweek 13
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/29/02 at 1:28 AM David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> Proposal 601/1 (The first rule is, you don't talk about it)
>> (Congenital Optimist):
>> AFF: Congenital Optimist, Glotmorf, Naath, Wild Card
>> NEG: Baron von Skippy, Iain, The Reality Police, The Voice, Wonko
>> ABS: Rob
>> SHL: Bean
>> Counts: (4-5-1-1). Measure fails.
>> Congenital Optimist loses 4 points.
> 
> Mr. A, this prop was a Charter Prop.  As per Rule 631 (created by Prop 586), a
> Charter Prop only fails if 2/3 of the votes were against it.  Are you counting
> Abstain and Shelve votes as being against it?
> 

But as per the much lower numbered rule 32, "...the proposals that have
received a majority of affirmative votes out of all votes they received are
deemed to have passed. The others are deemed to have failed."

32 takes precedence; 601 fails.

You could propose to fixe 631, but if you do then I'm turning all my props
into club props that repeal the club rules as soon as they're done so I can
get props in easily.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:04:03 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: RESULTS, nweek 13
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Proposal 570/0 (I rob from the rich!) (Bean):
> AFF: Baron von Skippy (10), Bean, Congenital Optimist, Glotmorf (9), Iain,
> Naath, Rob (12), Wild Card (13)
> NEG: The Voice, Wonko
> ABS: The Reality Police
> Counts: (8-2-1-0). Measure passes.
> Created 551/1.
> Bean scores 9 points.
>
>
> Proposal 596/0 (The Upper House) (Wild Card):
> AFF: Bean, Glotmorf, Naath, Rob (5), The Reality Police, Wild Card
> NEG: Baron von Skippy, Congenital Optimist
> ABS: Iain
> SHL: The Voice, Wonko
> Counts: (6-2-1-2). Measure passes.
> Created 633/0.
> Created 634/0. (Though not a rule, I'm using the same number system and
> database for Club charters and related documents.)
> Wild Card scores 8 points.
> 
> 
> Proposal 597/0 (To Seek Out New Life, and New Cultures) (Glotmorf):
> AFF: Baron von Skippy (12), Glotmorf (15), Iain, Naath (13), The Voice (2),
> Wild Card (14), Wonko (9)
> NEG: The Reality Police
> ABS: Bean, Congenital Optimist
> SHL: Rob
> Counts: (7-1-2-1). Measure passes.
> Created 635/0.
> Glotmorf scores 11 points.
> 
> 
> Proposal 598/0 (Keep your hands off!) (Wild Card):
> AFF: Baron von Skippy (5), Congenital Optimist, Iain, Naath (8), Rob,
> The Voice (8), Wild Card (12), Wonko (7)
> NEG: Bean, Glotmorf, The Reality Police
> Counts: (8-3-0-0). Measure passes.
> Created 636/0.
> Wild Card scores 6 points.

In the above proposals, where were literary bonuses factored in?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:14:15 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Typos
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Some things that the Admin could rectify:

r12: Certain rule changes are "Premissable"

r13: Players must consent to be "Goverened" by the rules

r21: Whenever a Player's score reaches or exceeds 1000 points, they are
immediately awarded a Win.
    Should be "e is" instead of "they are", methinks.

r30: Votes may only be cast during the Voting.
    Should be simply "during Voting" (or else it's wrong everywhere else.)

r406: Has keyword 'Gremlin' for no reason

r548: Has keyword 'Gnomes' while other gnome rules have keyword 'Gnome'

-- 
Wonko

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The number *hic* thou shalt drink to
 shall be three. Five is Right Ou... *thud*
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:55:49 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>6- the player Trips and Falls, Fumbling the Ball.

What happens to em if e doesn't have the ball?

-Good question. I was all wrapped up in that whole 
make-Tequila-less-powerful thing, I assumed the drunk runner would have the 
ball. Okay, easily fixed.-

--
Wonko

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Buzz.
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:05:48 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

[[I doubt this will pass, but it's fun to propose.]]
--
Rob Speer

-Well, even if it has no other merits, at the very least it allows people 
under the one-syll limit to use the number seven again.-

                                           -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 02:26:33 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/30/02 at 6:00 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Wonko should get some kind of award for most egregious violation of the
>spirit of the rules for this week whilst adhering to the letter thereof.

Thank you.  This sort of thing does work better with big words.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 02:49:51 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/30/02 at 6:00 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>As was already pointed out, the Fight Club proposal would have passed by
>the Charter Prop. rules, but the regular voting rules do take precedence.

Rule 32, that Wonko quoted, talks about props., but Rule 631 doesn't say a=
 Charter Prop is a prop; it says a Charter Prop is *like* a "normal prop".=
  If it is only like a "normal prop", but defined on its own, and different=
 from a "normal prop", then Rule 32 doesn't apply.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:43:48 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: RESULTS, nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/29/02 at 8:57 PM Wonko wrote:

>You could propose to fixe 631, but if you do then I'm turning all my props
>into club props that repeal the club rules as soon as they're done so I=
 can
>get props in easily.

This wouldn't work because of the default case, which says one can only=
 change the game state when one is explicitly permitted to do so.=
  Proposals can cause rule changes, but since a Charter Prop isn't defined=
 by r631 as being a proposal, type of proposal, subset of proposal, etc.,=
 the only rule change it can perform is the one it's required to perform,=
 namely, "a rule that defines the Club."  Put anything else in the Charter=
 Prop and you exceed its permitted game-state-changing capacity.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:59:18 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: [[Avoiding Entropy]]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/29/02 at 8:50 PM Wonko wrote:

>[[
>Hey, this is all *buzz* commented! That means I have every right to
>exercies
>extensive *crackle* verbosity. Everything below here *buzz* you need not
>peruse; I'm gonna quote it, except without the *crackle* comment brackets,
>in just a few minutes:

Rule 8 states, "Comment text shall not have the force of Rule."  Note that=
 it doesn't say "does not," but rather it says "shall not," which is a=
 forward-looking phrase.  This would imply that once text has been=
 introduced as a comment it cannot be made into a rule.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:18:13 -0400
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: RESULTS, nweek 13
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 01:43:48PM -0400, Glotmorf wrote:
> This wouldn't work because of the default case, which says one can only change the game state when one is explicitly permitted to do so.  Proposals can cause rule changes, but since a Charter Prop isn't defined by r631 as being a proposal, type of proposal, subset of proposal, etc., the only rule change it can perform is the one it's required to perform, namely, "a rule that defines the Club."  Put anything else in the Charter Prop and you exceed its permitted game-state-changing capacity.

But haven't we treated Charter Props already as proposals, by voting on
it like one?

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:02:50 -0400
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,
 
> Wonko should get some kind of award for most egregious violation of the
> spirit of the rules for this week whilst adhering to the letter thereof.

I only wish I had the Sushi, so I could get around that too... ;)

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:15:35 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
	(Tuesday morning)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/30/02 at 6:00 AM David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> As was already pointed out, the Fight Club proposal would have passed by
>> the Charter Prop. rules, but the regular voting rules do take precedence.
> 
> Rule 32, that Wonko quoted, talks about props., but Rule 631 doesn't say a
> Charter Prop is a prop; it says a Charter Prop is *like* a "normal prop".  If
> it is only like a "normal prop", but defined on its own, and different from a
> "normal prop", then Rule 32 doesn't apply.
> 

Then the rest of rule 32 doesn't apply either - the part about "what's in
the proposal becomes part of the ruleset". So if in fact a Charter Prop. is
not a normal prop, then it is incapable of changing the ruleset at all.

Besides, the Fight Club proposal was proposed before there was such thing as
a Charter Prop.; if it wasn't a normal proposal, then it had no business
being on the Ballot to begin with.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:23:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday
 morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

(catching up after a couple of days worth of busy-ness)

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:

> Besides, the Fight Club proposal was proposed before there was such thing as
> a Charter Prop.; if it wasn't a normal proposal, then it had no business
> being on the Ballot to begin with.

Well, I did include in the proposal the following language:

> This is a Charter Prop, to be defined by the rules included in
> the @&%$! delimited text.
>
> If either 572 or 586 do not pass, or if both do not pass, this
> proposal deletes itself.

But it now occurs to me -- it appears (unless something is amiss
with the website) that 572 ("if we sqeeze up a bit we can all fit
in") did *not* in fact pass.  Therefore this proposal ought to
have deleted itself on the non-passage of 572.

So what happens to the votes, negative or otherwise, or the 
points that would have been won or lost, on a proposal that, 
according to its own terms, deleted itself?

-Congenital Optimist

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:25:05 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Tuesday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/30/02 at 5:15 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> On 4/30/02 at 6:00 AM David E. Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> As was already pointed out, the Fight Club proposal would have passed=
 by
>>> the Charter Prop. rules, but the regular voting rules do take
>precedence.
>> 
>> Rule 32, that Wonko quoted, talks about props., but Rule 631 doesn't say
>a
>> Charter Prop is a prop; it says a Charter Prop is *like* a "normal
>prop".  If
>> it is only like a "normal prop", but defined on its own, and different
>from a
>> "normal prop", then Rule 32 doesn't apply.
>> 
>
>Then the rest of rule 32 doesn't apply either - the part about "what's in
>the proposal becomes part of the ruleset". So if in fact a Charter Prop.=
 is
>not a normal prop, then it is incapable of changing the ruleset at all.
>
>Besides, the Fight Club proposal was proposed before there was such thing
>as
>a Charter Prop.; if it wasn't a normal proposal, then it had no business
>being on the Ballot to begin with.

There is nothing that says proposals are the only way of changing the=
 ruleset, hence that loophole fix of one or two nweeks ago.  R631 says a=
 Charter Prop contains a rule that defines a Club; therefore it doesn't=
 need r32 to have rule-making capacity.

Since there was no such thing as Charter Props when the Fight Club Charter=
 Prop was made, it was placed on the ballot as if it was a proposal,=
 because it resembled one.  However, once Charter Props came into existence=
 earlier in the ballot, the Fight Club Charter Prop, claiming to be a=
 Charter Prop, was due a place on the ballot because r631 says Charter=
 Props are "like a normal prop. in that it's added to the nweek ballot and=
 voted on."  I don't believe there's anything that says only proposals can=
 be on the ballot; it's just that r32 says proposals are specifically=
 entitled to be.  Just as r631 says Charter Props are.

Plus, the Administrator has been kind enough to create a precedent by=
 putting the Upper House's "charter" in a page separate from the ruleset,=
 so even if the rule in the Charter Prop can't be added to the ruleset, it=
 doesn't mean it can't affect the game.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:34:36 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Tuesday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/30/02 at 4:23 PM Karin L. Kross wrote:

>(catching up after a couple of days worth of busy-ness)
>
>On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
>
>> Besides, the Fight Club proposal was proposed before there was such
>thing as
>> a Charter Prop.; if it wasn't a normal proposal, then it had no business
>> being on the Ballot to begin with.
>
>Well, I did include in the proposal the following language:
>
>> This is a Charter Prop, to be defined by the rules included in
>> the @&%$! delimited text.
>>
>> If either 572 or 586 do not pass, or if both do not pass, this
>> proposal deletes itself.
>
>But it now occurs to me -- it appears (unless something is amiss
>with the website) that 572 ("if we sqeeze up a bit we can all fit
>in") did *not* in fact pass.  Therefore this proposal ought to
>have deleted itself on the non-passage of 572.
>
>So what happens to the votes, negative or otherwise, or the 
>points that would have been won or lost, on a proposal that, 
>according to its own terms, deleted itself?
>
>-Congenital Optimist

Aw...and after I did all that arguing for you too. :)  Ah well, it had to=
 be done anyway.

If your Fight Club Charter Prop gets recognized as a Charter Prop (as it=
 truly should be), then there should be no point gain or loss for it.

As for the deletion, it couldn't happen, because, if a Charter Prop is=
 determined to not be a proposal, there's no provision for modifying a=
 Charter Prop.  And if it's still a proposal, then it can't be modified=
 after voting started.  What you were looking for was something at the=
 beginning that said, "...then this proposal has no effect."

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:00:21 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
	(Tuesday morning)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 4/30/02 at 4:23 PM Karin L. Kross wrote:
> 
>> (catching up after a couple of days worth of busy-ness)
>> 
>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Wonko wrote:
>> 
>>> Besides, the Fight Club proposal was proposed before there was such
>> thing as
>>> a Charter Prop.; if it wasn't a normal proposal, then it had no business
>>> being on the Ballot to begin with.
>> 
>> Well, I did include in the proposal the following language:
>> 
>>> This is a Charter Prop, to be defined by the rules included in
>>> the @&%$! delimited text.
>>> 
>>> If either 572 or 586 do not pass, or if both do not pass, this
>>> proposal deletes itself.
>> 
>> But it now occurs to me -- it appears (unless something is amiss
>> with the website) that 572 ("if we sqeeze up a bit we can all fit
>> in") did *not* in fact pass.  Therefore this proposal ought to
>> have deleted itself on the non-passage of 572.
>> 
>> So what happens to the votes, negative or otherwise, or the
>> points that would have been won or lost, on a proposal that,
>> according to its own terms, deleted itself?
>> 
>> -Congenital Optimist
> 
> Aw...and after I did all that arguing for you too. :)  Ah well, it had to be
> done anyway.
> 
> If your Fight Club Charter Prop gets recognized as a Charter Prop (as it truly
> should be), then there should be no point gain or loss for it.
> 
> As for the deletion, it couldn't happen, because, if a Charter Prop is
> determined to not be a proposal, there's no provision for modifying a Charter
> Prop.  And if it's still a proposal, then it can't be modified after voting
> started.  What you were looking for was something at the beginning that said,
> "...then this proposal has no effect."

But the proposal is only a Charter prop because it makes itself a Charter
Prop, so if it fails, it's not a Charter Prop.

Anyway, it failed before there was such thing as a Charter Prop - first all
votes are counted, then all proposals are determined to have passed or
failed, then the effects of passages/failures are performed.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:02:31 -0400
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
	(Tuesday morning)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> As for the deletion, it couldn't happen, because, if a Charter Prop is
> determined to not be a proposal, there's no provision for modifying a Charter
> Prop.  And if it's still a proposal, then it can't be modified after voting
> started.  What you were looking for was something at the beginning that said,
> "...then this proposal has no effect."

No, it can't be *revised* after voting. Thus, if it changes itself, that's
perfectly okay, by the same logic that says the admin can Rectify stuff
during Voting.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:34:35 -0400
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Tuesday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 4/30/02 at 10:02 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>
>> As for the deletion, it couldn't happen, because, if a Charter Prop is
>> determined to not be a proposal, there's no provision for modifying a
>Charter
>> Prop.  And if it's still a proposal, then it can't be modified after
>voting
>> started.  What you were looking for was something at the beginning that
>said,
>> "...then this proposal has no effect."
>
>No, it can't be *revised* after voting. Thus, if it changes itself, that's
>perfectly okay, by the same logic that says the admin can Rectify stuff
>during Voting.

The logic that says the admin can rectify stuff during voting is the Typo=
 rule.  There is no similar logic that allows a proposal to alter itself.=
  There is no provision at all for proposals to be deleted.  Aside from a=
 rectification to remove a typo, the only explicit logic present for=
 changing a proposal is r19, which says proposals can only be revised by=
 their original author (which the proposal isn't), and that proposals can't=
 be revised during voting.  So either deleting a proposal is a form of=
 revision, and thus regulated, or it's an un-explicitly-permitted change to=
 the game state, and thus illegal.

Besides, since the statement that deletes the proposal is in the proposal,=
 it'd only happen if the proposal actually passed.  It could only pass with=
 those vote counts if it's a Charter Prop, in which case it can't delete=
 itself because Charter Props weren't vested with that sort of authority.=
  If it failed, the deletion instruction in the proposal couldn't have been=
 performed.

So the proposal is still there.  It may not have had any effect, but it's=
 still there.

						Glotmorf