Subject: spoon-discuss: translation
From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 18:46:04 -0500

Even though I could follow my sushi-gibberish...

{{ __Roller Gremlin__

Create a new rule entitled __The Roller Gremlin__ with the following 
-0-delimited text:

-0-
There exists a Gremlin known as the Roller Gremlin.  At the beginning of 
each nweek, the Roller Gremlin will be placed by the Administrator in a 
random square on the Grid which has a y value of 20.  The Roller Gremlin 
will then proceed to move down the Grid in a random fashion.  However, each 
move that the Roller Gremlin takes must be to a square with a y value 1 
lower than the square it is in.  When the Roller Gremlin reaches a square 
with a y value of 1, e is removed from the Grid.  If the Roller Gremlin, at 
any point, would occupy the same space as a Big Rock, the Big Rock and 
anything on it is destroyed.  If e, at any point, occupies the same space as 
a player or gremlin, that player or gremlin is placed into Limbo.
-0-

If the proposal on this ballot titled, __Mommy, My Idol's Broken!__ passes, 
than also do the following:

{{
Amend rule 293 by adding the following -0- delimited text to the list in the 
second paragraph:

-0-
8)If the Roller Gremlin occupies the same space as the player who owns the 
Idol, e is not placed into Limbo.
-0-

}}

}}

Also, amend the proposal entitled __Mommy, My Idol's Broken!__ by replacing 
the first word of the final paragraph with the following -0- delimited text:

-0-
Any proposal which creates
-0-

}}

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 21:06:36 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Umm... on the ballot, Thermodynamics should be ThermodynOmics -- it's a pun.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:02:19 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 12:53:12AM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
 NO > Proposal 387/0: Bean sucks, but Vows of Poverty don't (Bean)
[[ I didn't like the idea of the Scoring Gremlin having limited money in
the first place, so I'd rather not have it become a significant part of
the game. ]]

 NO > Proposal 389/0: Let's Nip This In The Bud (Scoff!)

YES > Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color Commentary (Scoff!)
YES > Proposal 391/0: Fix The Haiku Bonus (Scoff!)
YES > Proposal 392/0: Same As It Never Was (Rob)
YES > Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
YES only if 409 fails, NO otherwise > Proposal 410/0: Another Way to Remove a
                                      Splinter (Baron von Skippy)
ABSTAIN  > Proposal 411/1: The Gremlin Factory (Dan)
NO > Proposal 412/2: Bribes for the Gremlin Game (Dan)
[[ Unfortunately, this doesn't make sense. How is the total influence 20
greater if it starts at 0 when nobody has any influence? ]]

YES > Proposal 413/0: Someday We'll All Look Back On This and Laugh Nervously (Rob)
[[ Until this passes, be sure to scrutinize every statement Dave makes,
so that two weeks from then we don't have to pretend the game never made
any sense. ]]

YES > Proposal 414/0: A Journey of a Thousand Words (Glotmorf)
[[ After all that effort, I can't vote against it. ]]

YES > Proposal 415/1: Hiding Really Means Hiding! (The Administrator)
 NO > Proposal 416/0: Do Gremlins Go To Heaven? (Glotmorf)
[[ It doesn't work. The gremlin defining rules state with certainty that
'There exists a Gremlin named...', so anything which makes such a
Gremlin not exist would conflict. ]]

YES > Proposal 417/1: Watch Your Step! (Glotmorf)
 NO > Proposal 418/1: Them's Good Eatin' (Glotmorf)
 NO > Proposal 419/0: There Was A Young Siren From Nantucket... (Scoff!)
[[ They need a rock to sit on... ]]

YES > Proposal 420/0: Second Law of Thermodynamics (The Voice)
[[ I didn't like this at first, but now I find it strangely appealing.
]]

 NO > Proposal 421/0: No, YOU'RE A Blowhard! (The Voice)
YES > Proposal 422/0: Mommy, my Idol's broken! (The Voice)
YES > Proposal 423/0: Inaugural Declaraion of Respect (The Voice)
 NO > Proposal 424/0: They're everwhere too! (Wonko)
YES > Proposal 425/0: Football fixes (Bean)
YES > Proposal 426/0: Only running is boring (Bean)
YES > Proposal 427/0: Only running is boring II: Bean Boots Back (Bean)
YES > Proposal 428/0: Nomic Revival (Rob)
[[ Paradoxes aren't the only thing which kill a Nomic. If it takes too
long to get a proposal through, people will give up. This rule will
automatically discourage things like Quorum on A Nomic. ]]

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:58:17 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/1/02 at 11:43 PM Donald Whytock wrote:

>On 3/2/02 at 12:41 AM David E. Smith wrote:
>
>>Holy cow. It's nday 8 now, and time for a ballot.
>
>It is?  I thought the Clock was turned on again on 2/22, which would mean
>nday 8 would begin on 3/2...?
>
>						Glotmorf

Lest I forget...I object to the Administrator's statement that it has=
 reached nday 8. :)

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:07:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> NO > Proposal 412/2: Bribes for the Gremlin Game (Dan)
> [[ Unfortunately, this doesn't make sense. How is the total influence 20
> greater if it starts at 0 when nobody has any influence? ]]

Oh rats I missed this one.  Dave can you please rectify the 'zero' in the
second-last sentence of the first rule created by 412/2 to 'twenty'?  
It's clearly a mistake since it contradicts the previous sentence.

Dan

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:10:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:

> It is?  I thought the Clock was turned on again on 2/22, which would
> mean nday 8 would begin on 3/2...?

Correct. When I sent that mail, it was already 3/2 Nomic Standard Time
(aka GMT/UCT/whatever). 3/2 starts at 6 pm on 3/1 (my time).

...dave

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:48:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> I looked through the mail folder and can't find any other revisions of
> 411 (i.e. to the best of my knowledge, 411/1 is the current number). If
> I've missed something, forward me a copy of the email requesting the
> original change (so I know what I'm looking for).

Sorry, my mistake.  I retract my objection.

Dan

Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:45:35 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 12:53:12AM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
> NO > Proposal 387/0: Bean sucks, but Vows of Poverty don't (Bean)
> [[ I didn't like the idea of the Scoring Gremlin having limited money in
> the first place, so I'd rather not have it become a significant part of
> the game. ]]
> 
> NO > Proposal 389/0: Let's Nip This In The Bud (Scoff!)
> 
> YES > Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color Commentary
> (Scoff!)
> YES > Proposal 391/0: Fix The Haiku Bonus (Scoff!)
> YES > Proposal 392/0: Same As It Never Was (Rob)
> YES > Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
> YES only if 409 fails, NO otherwise > Proposal 410/0: Another Way to Remove a
> Splinter (Baron von Skippy)
> ABSTAIN  > Proposal 411/1: The Gremlin Factory (Dan)
> NO > Proposal 412/2: Bribes for the Gremlin Game (Dan)
> [[ Unfortunately, this doesn't make sense. How is the total influence 20
> greater if it starts at 0 when nobody has any influence? ]]
> 
> YES > Proposal 413/0: Someday We'll All Look Back On This and Laugh Nervously
> (Rob)
> [[ Until this passes, be sure to scrutinize every statement Dave makes,
> so that two weeks from then we don't have to pretend the game never made
> any sense. ]]
> 
> YES > Proposal 414/0: A Journey of a Thousand Words (Glotmorf)
> [[ After all that effort, I can't vote against it. ]]
> 
> YES > Proposal 415/1: Hiding Really Means Hiding! (The Administrator)
> NO > Proposal 416/0: Do Gremlins Go To Heaven? (Glotmorf)
> [[ It doesn't work. The gremlin defining rules state with certainty that
> 'There exists a Gremlin named...', so anything which makes such a
> Gremlin not exist would conflict. ]]
> 
> YES > Proposal 417/1: Watch Your Step! (Glotmorf)
> NO > Proposal 418/1: Them's Good Eatin' (Glotmorf)
> NO > Proposal 419/0: There Was A Young Siren From Nantucket... (Scoff!)
> [[ They need a rock to sit on... ]]
> 
> YES > Proposal 420/0: Second Law of Thermodynamics (The Voice)
> [[ I didn't like this at first, but now I find it strangely appealing.
> ]]
> 
> NO > Proposal 421/0: No, YOU'RE A Blowhard! (The Voice)
> YES > Proposal 422/0: Mommy, my Idol's broken! (The Voice)
> YES > Proposal 423/0: Inaugural Declaraion of Respect (The Voice)
> NO > Proposal 424/0: They're everwhere too! (Wonko)
> YES > Proposal 425/0: Football fixes (Bean)
> YES > Proposal 426/0: Only running is boring (Bean)
> YES > Proposal 427/0: Only running is boring II: Bean Boots Back (Bean)
> YES > Proposal 428/0: Nomic Revival (Rob)
> [[ Paradoxes aren't the only thing which kill a Nomic. If it takes too
> long to get a proposal through, people will give up. This rule will
> automatically discourage things like Quorum on A Nomic. ]]

Um... send this to business, maybe?

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 23:56:19 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/1/02 at 11:02 PM Rob Speer wrote:

> NO > Proposal 416/0: Do Gremlins Go To Heaven? (Glotmorf)
>[[ It doesn't work. The gremlin defining rules state with certainty that
>'There exists a Gremlin named...', so anything which makes such a
>Gremlin not exist would conflict. ]]

...Which sure would be a problem if said thing that makes a Gremlin not=
 exist didn't have a sufficiently high Chutzpah.  Which _Them's Good=
 Eatin'_ could easily get some time subsequent to passage.

I made this proposal separate from the Hannibal proposal for a reason.=
  Would you rather that some means of destroying a Gremlin comes along=
 without this resurrection proposal being in place?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:33:28 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:45:35PM -0500, Wonko wrote:
> Um... send this to business, maybe?

Since when do Ballots need to be sent to a public forum? Only the
Administrator needs to know. Putting the ballot on the list is purely
for the benefit of other players.

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 11:08:46 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 1:33 AM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:45:35PM -0500, Wonko wrote:
>> Um... send this to business, maybe?
>
>Since when do Ballots need to be sent to a public forum? Only the
>Administrator needs to know. Putting the ballot on the list is purely
>for the benefit of other players.

R31: "To cast a vote, a Player must either submit eir vote to the=
 Administrator or to a Public Forum. Votes which are not publicly known=
 shall not be revealed by the Administrator until voting ends, at which=
 point they must be revealed."

Granted, past evidence suggests that it is reasonable to assume Mr. A reads=
 spoon-discuss, but he is not necessarily obligated to do so. :)  Sending=
 it to spoon-business makes it official that you've fulfilled your end of=
 the process.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:49:08 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

>> Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
> No.  It needs better wording: As it's written now, it will rewrite r259 to
> say, "For the purposes of the rules, and for all other purposes within the
> game, the term "proposal" shall be considered precisely equivalent to the far
> superior term "proposal"."  If "proposal" is precisely equivalent to
> "proposal", yet "proposal" is far superior to "proposal", this is a paradox.
> 
> Nice try, though.

Um... the words "except in r259" would seem to me to indicate that it
wouldn't rewrite r259 at all.... Unless this is some strange usage of the
word 'except' that I wasn't previously aware of...

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 20:01:07 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> 
> Proposal 387/0: Bean sucks, but Vows of Poverty don't (Bean)
No (379 failed....)
> Proposal 389/0: Let's Nip This In The Bud (Scoff!)
No (I turned that off)
> Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color Commentary (Scoff!)
No (Nothing seems to be happening....)
> Proposal 391/0: Fix The Haiku Bonus (Scoff!)
Yes
> Proposal 392/0: Same As It Never Was (Rob)
Yes
> Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
No (I like the 'flaming Gremlin named Bruce' better; Now we just need the
Flaming Gremlin)
> Proposal 410/0: Another Way to Remove a Splinter (Baron von Skippy)
No (Flaming Bruce again)
> Proposal 411/1: The Gremlin Factory (Dan)
No (resubmit it with Gnomes, maybe?)
> Proposal 412/2: Bribes for the Gremlin Game (Dan)
No (What stops me from buying enough Gremlins to pass a "Wonko recieves 1000
points" proposal?)
> Proposal 413/0: Someday We'll All Look Back On This and Laugh Nervously (Rob)
Yes
> Proposal 414/0: A Journey of a Thousand Words (Glotmorf)
Abstain  (I like the idea, but I'm hesitant to resign myself to reading
eight-page proposals...)
> Proposal 415/1: Hiding Really Means Hiding! (The Administrator)
Yes
> Proposal 416/0: Do Gremlins Go To Heaven? (Glotmorf)
No (won't work; "there exists a Gremlin" takes precedence over it)
> Proposal 417/1: Watch Your Step! (Glotmorf)
Abstain (I'm not sure if I understand it; I don't have time to calculate it;
I'll let everyone else decide for me)
> Proposal 418/1: Them's Good Eatin' (Glotmorf)
No
> Proposal 419/0: There Was A Young Siren From Nantucket... (Scoff!)
No (It would read: A Big Rock must be placed in a vacant location on the
Grid, no other object -- Players, Things, etc. -- can occupy that Grid
location, with the exception of a Siren.)
> Proposal 420/0: Second Law of Thermodynamics (The Voice)
Yes
> Proposal 421/0: No, YOU'RE A Blowhard! (The Voice)
Yes
> Proposal 422/0: Mommy, my Idol's broken! (The Voice)
Yes
> Proposal 423/0: Inaugural Declaraion of Respect (The Voice)
Yes
> Proposal 424/0: They're everwhere too! (Wonko)
Yes

> Proposal 425/0: Football fixes (Bean)
Abstain
> Proposal 426/0: Only running is boring (Bean)
Abstain
> Proposal 427/0: Only running is boring II: Bean Boots Back (Bean)
Abstain
{I'm still a little confused about Football in general. I'll let everyone
else decide for me until I'm sure I understand how it all works)

> Proposal 428/0: Nomic Revival (Rob)
No (emergency procedures take care of it)
> 

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 20:03:11 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> 
>> Proposal 421/0: No, YOU'RE A Blowhard! (The Voice)
> No.  There's nothing that says how the Wind is determined.
> 

It says it's a Characteristic, and so it's determined by the Weather rule to
be blowing in whatever direction Dave thinks it is.

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:03:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:

> >Proposal 411/1: The Gremlin Factory (Dan)
> Yes, if p418 passes.  Otherwise, with no predator, they'll overpopulate.

I can't accept a conditional vote like this, since I'm obliged to count
votes for each proposal in the order in which they appear on the ballot.

You may want to make this a more definite vote. (Since it starts with
"yes" I'm counting it as such unless/until asked to do otherwise.)

...dave

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:17:51 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/4/02 at 12:55 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:
>
>> On 2/14/2002 I objected to the Administrator's earlier statement that
>> proposal 377 was on a ballot.  I contend that now, as per r129, the
>> game state is altered to a state that doesn't include that statement,
>> since it was objected to.
>
>Since r129 didn't exist in the current form at that time, I could
>counter-contend that your statement cannot have an effect (since it would
>be governed by the then-extant version of r129).
>
>Failing that, though, per the current version of r129, "the usual methods
>for determining the current rules and game state shall apply." And since
>your subject contains the phrase "CFJ" I choose to believe that you do in
>fact intend for your statement to be a CFJ.
>
>So... CFJ 430, assigned to Iain.
>
>...dave

The current version of r129 says it takes precedence over all other rules.=
  I assume that includes the rule against retroactive actions, so even=
 though the current version of r129 wasn't in effect then, the fact that it=
 was in effect 20 days after your announcement is sufficient to affect the=
 announcement.

And yes, I meant my message to be a statement for a CFJ.  Thank you for=
 your concern.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:22:03 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 7:49 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Donald Whytock,
>
>
>>> Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
>> No.  It needs better wording: As it's written now, it will rewrite r259
>to
>> say, "For the purposes of the rules, and for all other purposes within
>the
>> game, the term "proposal" shall be considered precisely equivalent to
>the far
>> superior term "proposal"."  If "proposal" is precisely equivalent to
>> "proposal", yet "proposal" is far superior to "proposal", this is a
>paradox.
>> 
>> Nice try, though.
>
>Um... the words "except in r259" would seem to me to indicate that it
>wouldn't rewrite r259 at all.... Unless this is some strange usage of the
>word 'except' that I wasn't previously aware of...
>
>
>--Wonko

The words "except in r259" are part of the second sentence, which has to do=
 with proposals.  The first sentence, which has to do with existing rules,=
 doesn't have that condition.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:27:48 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 8:03 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Donald Whytock,
>
>> 
>>> Proposal 421/0: No, YOU'RE A Blowhard! (The Voice)
>> No.  There's nothing that says how the Wind is determined.
>> 
>
>It says it's a Characteristic, and so it's determined by the Weather rule
>to
>be blowing in whatever direction Dave thinks it is.
>
>
>--Wonko

Ah.  I didn't realize Characteristics were game entities similar to=
 Dimensions, since there wasn't anything that said "A Characteristic is=
 such-and-such."  When it said the Weather has characteristics, I was=
 thinking that, yes, most things have characteristics, such as the firmness=
 and redness of an apple.

So since characteristics are things that the Weather has, characteristics=
 are therefore game entities?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:29:36 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Radar
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 7:37 PM Wonko wrote:

>{{
>__Blip...Blip...__
>
>Create:
>{{
>__Radar__
>
>Each player has an attribute called Radar. All players initially have a
>Radar of 2. If a square containing a Shiny Thing or a Scary Dark Thing is
>within x squares of a player, where x is that player's Radar, then the
>admin
>shall reveal where the Shiny Thing or Scary Dark Thing is, but not what
>type
>of Thing it is.
>}}
>
>}}
>
>It makes me nervous knowing that there are land mines lying around for me
>to
>step on... I'd feel better if I at least knew something was there.
>
>
>--Wonko

Ooo...and who is going to submit the Tinfoil proposal? :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:40:15 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Plague of Gremlins
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 7:42 PM Wonko wrote:

>{{
>__They're Everywhere! Part 2__
>
>Append to the rule entitled "Gremlins" the following WHEEE delimited text:
>WHEEE
>There exists an entity known as the Plague of Gremlins. All Gremlins are
>considered to be part of the Plague of Gremlins. At the beginning of each
>voting period, if all Gremlins are Hiding, all Gremlins become Active.
>Otherwise, the following shall occur:
>If the Gremlin number is greater than 62, the Plague of Gremlins votes No
>on
>k randomly chosen proposals on the current Ballot, where k is the 8th
>Gremlin number.
>If the Gremlin number is less than 59, the Plague of Gremlins votes Yes on
>k
>randomly chosen proposals on the current Ballot, where k is 9-(the 8th
>Gremlin number).
>If the Gremlin number is equal to 59, 60, 61, or 62, all Gremlins go into
>Hiding, and may not become Active for at least 5 ndays.
>
>This rule takes precedence over all rules which determine when Gremlins=
 may
>become Active.
>WHEEE
>}}
>
>
>--Wonko

First off, you didn't say the rule takex precedence over all rules which=
 determine when Gremlins go into Hiding, so rules that say a Gremlin goes=
 into Hiding under such-and-such conditions, but are otherwise Active,=
 would prevent the go-into-Hiding action.

Second...are we truly ready for the possibility that, as a matter of random=
 chance, a rule may get passed that we flat-out don't want to see passed?=
  If someone had no concern for the prospects of lost points, e could wait=
 until the Gremlin Number was high, then make all five of eir proposals as,=
 "Player X gets 1000 points," on the off chance that e and the Gremlins=
 together would adopt it.

If it is absolutely necessary for Gremlins to vote, how about having them=
 each vote on different randomly selected proposals, so that k randomly=
 chosen proposals on the ballot each receive an extra yes vote or an extra=
 no vote?  That'll at least only influence those proposals that are wanted=
 by half the Players.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:56:07 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 12:53 AM 2002-03-02 +0000, you wrote:

*sigh*... I wasn't taking my usual job or nitpicking this week... as such 
there are a number of proposals I'm only seeing now which are 
inconsistent.  My apologies.

You'll also note I'm abstaining a lot this week.  I've had a crazy week at 
work (we ship next week) and so I haven' had much time to keep up.  Caught 
up now though, and I should be able to pay my usualy obscene amount of 
attention to this game again.

>Proposal 387/0: Bean sucks, but Vows of Poverty don't (Bean)
YES

>Proposal 389/0: Let's Nip This In The Bud (Scoff!)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color Commentary (Scoff!)
NO - This proposed rule is self-contradictory.  Two players can't hold the 
title, but then you say they can.

>Proposal 391/0: Fix The Haiku Bonus (Scoff!)
YES

>Proposal 392/0: Same As It Never Was (Rob)
NO

>Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
NO - This will replace its own instance of proosal with proposal.  Icky 
icky icky.

>Proposal 410/0: Another Way to Remove a Splinter (Baron von Skippy)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 411/1: The Gremlin Factory (Dan)
NO

>Proposal 412/2: Bribes for the Gremlin Game (Dan)
NO

>Proposal 413/0: Someday We'll All Look Back On This and Laugh Nervously (Rob)
ABSTAIN - I'm gonna have to let the masses decide on this one

>Proposal 414/0: A Journey of a Thousand Words (Glotmorf)
YES - I like stories.

>Proposal 415/1: Hiding Really Means Hiding! (The Administrator)
YES

>Proposal 416/0: Do Gremlins Go To Heaven? (Glotmorf)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 417/1: Watch Your Step! (Glotmorf)
YES - I don't like it appending to 394... bad aesthetics, etc.  But yeah.

>Proposal 418/1: Them's Good Eatin' (Glotmorf)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 419/0: There Was A Young Siren From Nantucket... (Scoff!)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 420/0: Second Law of Thermodynamics (The Voice)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 421/0: No, YOU'RE A Blowhard! (The Voice)
ABSTAIN

>Proposal 422/0: Mommy, my Idol's broken! (The Voice)
YES

>Proposal 423/0: Inaugural Declaraion of Respect (The Voice)
YES!! YES! YES! YES!  (I actually was going to do this... well, you have a 
busy week and look what happens, someone else gets your points :)

>Proposal 424/0: They're everwhere too! (Wonko)
NO - I just things are busy enough as is.

>Proposal 425/0: Football fixes (Bean)
YES

>Proposal 426/0: Only running is boring (Bean)
YES

>Proposal 427/0: Only running is boring II: Bean Boots Back (Bean)
YES

>Proposal 428/0: Nomic Revival (Rob)
ABSTAIN

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:12:36 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 12:55 AM 2002-03-04 +0000, you wrote:
>On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:
>
> > On 2/14/2002 I objected to the Administrator's earlier statement that
> > proposal 377 was on a ballot.  I contend that now, as per r129, the
> > game state is altered to a state that doesn't include that statement,
> > since it was objected to.
>
>Since r129 didn't exist in the current form at that time, I could
>counter-contend that your statement cannot have an effect (since it would
>be governed by the then-extant version of r129).
>
>Failing that, though, per the current version of r129, "the usual methods
>for determining the current rules and game state shall apply." And since
>your subject contains the phrase "CFJ" I choose to believe that you do in
>fact intend for your statement to be a CFJ.
>
>So... CFJ 430, assigned to Iain.

I'd like to provide my amicus brief to the court if I may....

Since Glotmorf objected to this statement, "the usual methods for 
determining the current rules and game state" must be used to figure out if 
indeed there was a proposal 377 on the ballot.  Therefore, consensus or a 
CFJ must be used to determine if there was a proposal 377.  Now, neither of 
those things has *explicitly* happened, however, there has been an implicit 
acceptance of proposal 377, and so his honour, Iain, should rule FALSE.

But I'm going to argue one step beyond that, and say that this CFJ should 
be judged FALSE for one more reason.  "I contend that now, as per r129, the 
game state is altered to a state that doesn't include that statement, since 
it was objected to."  This statement is false, even if there WASN'T a 
proposal 377.  Rule 129 does not alter anything if someone objects to a 
statement, it simply states that we must resort to other methods.  Rule 129 
only alters the gamestate on Administrator statements.  Since Glotmorf used 
rule 129 as a causal in his statement, and the causal is false, the entire 
statement must be false, and therefore the CFJ is FALSE.

I'd like to thank the court for allowing this brief.

Bean

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:15:22 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Friday evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:58 PM 2002-03-01 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/1/02 at 11:43 PM Donald Whytock wrote:
>
> >On 3/2/02 at 12:41 AM David E. Smith wrote:
> >
> >>Holy cow. It's nday 8 now, and time for a ballot.
> >
> >It is?  I thought the Clock was turned on again on 2/22, which would mean
> >nday 8 would begin on 3/2...?
> >
> >                                               Glotmorf
>
>Lest I forget...I object to the Administrator's statement that it has 
>reached nday 8. :)

Well, then CFJ it.... I think it is nday 8. (Well, mostly I don't care, but 
I'll play Devil's Advocate until the CFJ falls onto my desk)

Bean

Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 23:22:52 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:01:07PM -0500, Wonko wrote:
> > Proposal 412/2: Bribes for the Gremlin Game (Dan)
> No (What stops me from buying enough Gremlins to pass a "Wonko recieves 1000
> points" proposal?)

Hmm. Did I miss something? I didn't realize that you could cause
Gremlins to vote with the bribes. I might end up changing my vote back.

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:38:02 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 11:12 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>I'd like to provide my amicus brief to the court if I may....
>
>Since Glotmorf objected to this statement, "the usual methods for 
>determining the current rules and game state" must be used to figure out
>if 
>indeed there was a proposal 377 on the ballot.  Therefore, consensus or a 
>CFJ must be used to determine if there was a proposal 377.  Now, neither
>of 
>those things has *explicitly* happened, however, there has been an
>implicit 
>acceptance of proposal 377, and so his honour, Iain, should rule FALSE.
>
>But I'm going to argue one step beyond that, and say that this CFJ should 
>be judged FALSE for one more reason.  "I contend that now, as per r129,
>the 
>game state is altered to a state that doesn't include that statement,
>since 
>it was objected to."  This statement is false, even if there WASN'T a 
>proposal 377.  Rule 129 does not alter anything if someone objects to a 
>statement, it simply states that we must resort to other methods.  Rule
>129 
>only alters the gamestate on Administrator statements.  Since Glotmorf
>used 
>rule 129 as a causal in his statement, and the causal is false, the entire=
 
>statement must be false, and therefore the CFJ is FALSE.
>
>I'd like to thank the court for allowing this brief.
>
>Bean

If I may...

On the contrary, the game state has in fact been altered since that time.=
  The Administrator made statements both before and after the one I=
 objected to, and, since, as far as I know, those weren't objected to, they=
 therefore, by the current version of r129, resulted in alteration of the=
 game state to reflect those statements.

It is correct that no such alteration was performed in the instance of the=
 statement that I objected to.  That, however, means that in the subsequent=
 alteration, performed as per the following Administrator statement, the=
 statement I objected to should not have been reflected.

The significance of the game state not including the statement I objected=
 to is not as much whether or not p377 was placed on the ballot; the=
 significance is that almost all players, including myself, voted by=
 responding to the email that included that statement.  If, according to=
 the game state, that statement was never made, then it couldn't possibly=
 have appeared in the votes that were cast by responding to the ballot=
 message which quoted it.  Therefore, there may exist the word Yes or No in=
 a given player's ballot, but without the Administrator's statement of p377=
 being part of the ballot being next to it, the word doesn't correspond to=
 anything.

Which meant that, except in those cases where a player specifically said,=
 "I vote [Yes|No] for Proposal 377," p377 didn't receive any votes.

The votes therefore need recounting.

						Al Morf

Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:51:41 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:38 PM 2002-03-03 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/3/02 at 11:12 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
>If I may...

Of course.

>On the contrary, the game state has in fact been altered since that 
>time.  The Administrator made statements both before and after the one I 
>objected to, and, since, as far as I know, those weren't objected to, they 
>therefore, by the current version of r129, resulted in alteration of the 
>game state to reflect those statements.

You've missed the point of my "brief" completely.  Your objection does not 
make the statement "go away".  It merely means that we have to use some 
means to figure out if it is true or not.  I'd argue that we have 
implicitly had concesus on whether that statement is true or false.  And 
that concensus is that it is true.

Even if the Administrator's statement is false, your CFJ is false because 
you said that it was because of rule 129, which is false.  So the entire 
CFJ must be false.

Bean

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:14:15 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/3/02 at 11:51 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>At 11:38 PM 2002-03-03 -0500, you wrote:
>>On 3/3/02 at 11:12 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>>
>>If I may...
>
>Of course.
>
>>On the contrary, the game state has in fact been altered since that 
>>time.  The Administrator made statements both before and after the one I 
>>objected to, and, since, as far as I know, those weren't objected to,
>they 
>>therefore, by the current version of r129, resulted in alteration of the 
>>game state to reflect those statements.
>
>You've missed the point of my "brief" completely.  Your objection does not=
 
>make the statement "go away".  It merely means that we have to use some 
>means to figure out if it is true or not.  I'd argue that we have 
>implicitly had concesus on whether that statement is true or false.  And 
>that concensus is that it is true.
>
>Even if the Administrator's statement is false, your CFJ is false because 
>you said that it was because of rule 129, which is false.  So the entire 
>CFJ must be false.
>
>Bean

The current form of r129 doesn't say we establish the truth of an=
 Administrator statement that has been objected to; it merely says that=
 "the usual methods for determining the current rules and game state shall=
 apply."  Therefore, when the game state was altered by the Administrator's=
 subsequent un-objected-to statement (hitherto known as S+1), it may have=
 reflected the game state, but it did not reflect the Administrator's=
 objected-to statement (hitherto known as S) being true.

And I'm still not sure it reflected the game state.  We never resolved what=
 "the usual methods" actually means.  If it means "the methods we usually=
 use," that consists of the Administrator telling us what the game state=
 is.  If S+1 rendered the game state as something that didn't reflect S=
 being true, then our "usual methods" of determining the game state failed=
 us right there.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:43:47 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 12:14 AM 2002-03-04 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/3/02 at 11:51 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >At 11:38 PM 2002-03-03 -0500, you wrote:
> >>On 3/3/02 at 11:12 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
> >>
> >>If I may...
> >
> >Of course.
> >
> >>On the contrary, the game state has in fact been altered since that
> >>time.  The Administrator made statements both before and after the one I
> >>objected to, and, since, as far as I know, those weren't objected to,
> >they
> >>therefore, by the current version of r129, resulted in alteration of the
> >>game state to reflect those statements.
> >
> >You've missed the point of my "brief" completely.  Your objection does not
> >make the statement "go away".  It merely means that we have to use some
> >means to figure out if it is true or not.  I'd argue that we have
> >implicitly had concesus on whether that statement is true or false.  And
> >that concensus is that it is true.
> >
> >Even if the Administrator's statement is false, your CFJ is false because
> >you said that it was because of rule 129, which is false.  So the entire
> >CFJ must be false.
> >
> >Bean
>
>The current form of r129 doesn't say we establish the truth of an 
>Administrator statement that has been objected to; it merely says that 
>"the usual methods for determining the current rules and game state shall 
>apply."  Therefore, when the game state was altered by the Administrator's 
>subsequent un-objected-to statement (hitherto known as S+1), it may have 
>reflected the game state, but it did not reflect the Administrator's 
>objected-to statement (hitherto known as S) being true.

So what you're saying is you're calling for a recount on votes which won't 
affect the outcome of the voting???

>If it means "the methods we usually use," that consists of the 
>Administrator telling us what the game state is.

... and CFJs, and consensus...

You still haven't convinced me that the Administrator's statement 
"dissapears".  Rule 129 never says anything about that.

Bean

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:14:04 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/4/02 at 12:43 AM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>You still haven't convinced me that the Administrator's statement 
>"dissapears".  Rule 129 never says anything about that.
>
>Bean

R129 says the game state is altered as if the Administrator's statement is=
 true.  For the game state to be altered upon the truth of the=
 Administrator's statement, it presupposes the Administrator's statement=
 exists.  After all, if the Administrator's statement existed, it would=
 have some effect on the game state even without r129.

Yet, by r129, if an Administrator's statement is objected to, the game=
 state is not altered to reflect the truth of said statement.  The game=
 state may not fundamentally change from said absence, if it can be=
 determined by CFJs and consensus and all, but it specifically was not=
 altered to reflect the truth of the objected-to statement (again, let's=
 call it S.)

The game state was altered, however, by the first subsequent Administrator=
 statement that wasn't objected to (let's call it S+1); yet, since the game=
 state specifically wasn't altered by S, the alteration caused by S+1 still=
 won't result in a game state that was altered by S.

But logic suggests that if the Administrator's statement existed, and=
 especially if that statement was true, then it must have had an effect on=
 the game state.  Since the game state was altered by S+1 in a way that=
 specifically didn't stem from a game state altered by S, S must not have=
 existed.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:30:28 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 01:14 AM 2002-03-04 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/4/02 at 12:43 AM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >You still haven't convinced me that the Administrator's statement
> >"dissapears".  Rule 129 never says anything about that.
> >
> >Bean
>
>R129 says the game state is altered as if the Administrator's statement is 
>true.  For the game state to be altered upon the truth of the 
>Administrator's statement, it presupposes the Administrator's statement 
>exists.  After all, if the Administrator's statement existed, it would 
>have some effect on the game state even without r129.

True.

>Yet, by r129, if an Administrator's statement is objected to, the game 
>state is not altered to reflect the truth of said statement.  The game 
>state may not fundamentally change from said absence, if it can be 
>determined by CFJs and consensus and all, but it specifically was not 
>altered to reflect the truth of the objected-to statement (again, let's 
>call it S.)

True.

>The game state was altered, however, by the first subsequent Administrator 
>statement that wasn't objected to (let's call it S+1); yet, since the game 
>state specifically wasn't altered by S, the alteration caused by S+1 still 
>won't result in a game state that was altered by S.

Uh.... true I think (me not have much brain at 1am).

>But logic suggests that if the Administrator's statement existed, and 
>especially if that statement was true, then it must have had an effect on 
>the game state.

Here is the flaw in your logic.  The administrator, except as explicitly 
outlined in the rules, does not in any way affect the game state.  So, 
notwithstanding your objection to him saying that proposal 377 was on the 
ballot, it still was, *according to the rules*, which are our only 
guidepost in how to play this game.

In fact, if rule 129 didn't exist in the way it does now, and the Admin 
said the gamestate is blue... it wouldn't be, because the rules don't allow 
it (in fact, even with rule 129/2 it wouldn't be... until 20 days 
later).  The Admin doesn't affect gamestate, if fact, the roles are 
reversed:  Gamestate dictates what the Admin says (or at least that's how 
it should be).

Bean

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 01:44:55 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/4/02 at 1:30 AM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>Here is the flaw in your logic.  The administrator, except as explicitly 
>outlined in the rules, does not in any way affect the game state.  So, 
>notwithstanding your objection to him saying that proposal 377 was on the 
>ballot, it still was, *according to the rules*, which are our only 
>guidepost in how to play this game.
>
>In fact, if rule 129 didn't exist in the way it does now, and the Admin 
>said the gamestate is blue... it wouldn't be, because the rules don't
>allow 
>it (in fact, even with rule 129/2 it wouldn't be... until 20 days 
>later).  The Admin doesn't affect gamestate, if fact, the roles are 
>reversed:  Gamestate dictates what the Admin says (or at least that's how 
>it should be).
>
>Bean

Uh-huh.  And are you saying that if the Administrator had not said that it=
 was Nday 8 and time to vote, you'd've voted anyway?  And that if he hadn't=
 put p377 into the email that listed the ballot, you'd nevertheless have=
 cast a vote on it?  Mr. A almost didn't send out the ballot on Nday 8 for=
 Nweek 8; I doubt I'd've sent him any votes until he'd sent me a ballot=
 first.  And I'd bet a Pizza Hut Stuffed-Crust Supreme that if he hadn't=
 put p377 into that ballot, no one would have voted on it.

I submit that we didn't vote on p377 because it was on the ballot; we voted=
 on p377 because Mr. A *said* it was on the ballot.  Which means said=
 statement affected the game state.

It's an awful temptation now to suggest to Mr. A that he conduct an=
 experiment to that effect...

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:45:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:

> On 3/4/02 at 1:30 AM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >Here is the flaw in your logic.  The administrator, except as explicitly
> >outlined in the rules, does not in any way affect the game state.  So,
> >notwithstanding your objection to him saying that proposal 377 was on the
> >ballot, it still was, *according to the rules*, which are our only
> >guidepost in how to play this game.
> >
> >In fact, if rule 129 didn't exist in the way it does now, and the Admin
> >said the gamestate is blue... it wouldn't be, because the rules don't
> >allow
> >it (in fact, even with rule 129/2 it wouldn't be... until 20 days
> >later).  The Admin doesn't affect gamestate, if fact, the roles are
> >reversed:  Gamestate dictates what the Admin says (or at least that's how
> >it should be).
> >
> >Bean
>
> Uh-huh.  And are you saying that if the Administrator had not said that
> it was Nday 8 and time to vote, you'd've voted anyway?  And that if he
> hadn't put p377 into the email that listed the ballot, you'd
> nevertheless have cast a vote on it?

Perhaps not... but doubtless uin would have noticed that his precious
proosal wasn't on the ballot, and informed the Admin of his error.  But in
theory, yes, you *could* vote on a proposal that wasn't on the ballot the
admin sent out, because by the rules it *has* to be on the ballot.

> Mr. A almost didn't send out the ballot on Nday 8 for Nweek 8; I doubt
> I'd've sent him any votes until he'd sent me a ballot first.  And I'd
> bet a Pizza Hut Stuffed-Crust Supreme that if he hadn't put p377 into
> that ballot, no one would have voted on it.

But you *could* vote on the ballot if he didn't send it out 48 hours
before the end of the nweek, because by the rules he *has* to.

> I submit that we didn't vote on p377 because it was on the ballot; we
> voted on p377 because Mr. A *said* it was on the ballot.  Which means
> said statement affected the game state.

It's not a matter of whether we *would* have, it's a matter of whether we
*could* have.  We could have, if we wanted to, because by the rules it has
to be on the ballot.

> It's an awful temptation now to suggest to Mr. A that he conduct an
> experiment to that effect...

Sure, and I'll vote :)

Bean

From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:36:14 -0600
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: CFJ
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I would judge this statement true myself.  It is entirely TRUE that Glotmor=
f objected as stated on 2/14/2002, and TRUE that Glotmorf so contends as e =
states below, however FALSE the point of contention itself may be.  Far be =
it from us to tell Glotmorf what e does or doesn't contend! =20

Both sentences are true, but they don't really *do* anything except clue us=
 in to Glotmorf's past actions and current state of mind.  ;-)

--Scoff!

p.s.  If you liked this brief introduction, then buy my series of video tut=
orials entitled "Semantics For Fun And Profit"!  If you call within the nex=
t five minutes, we'll even throw in an all-purpose cleaning solution made f=
rom the flayed carcass of that annoying pitch-man for Orange Clean who is c=
onstantly interrupting my enjoyment of BBC America!  Don't hesitate!  Call =
now! =20

(Shipping and Handling Charges of $59.95 or the Gross Domestic Product of y=
our home country, whichever is greater, may apply.)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:49 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: spoon-business: CFJ
>=20
>=20
> On 2/14/2002 I objected to the Administrator's earlier=20
> statement that proposal 377 was on a ballot.  I contend that=20
> now, as per r129, the game state is altered to a state that=20
> doesn't include that statement, since it was objected to.
>=20
> 						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:30:18 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I would judge this statement true myself.  It
> is entirely TRUE that Glotmorf objected as
> stated on 2/14/2002, and TRUE that
> Glotmorf so contends as e states below,
> however FALSE the point of contention itself
> may be.  Far be it from us to tell Glotmorf
> what e does or doesn't contend!  
>
> Both sentences are true, but they don't really
> *do* anything except clue us in to Glotmorf's
> past actions and current state of mind.  ;-)
>
I'd be inclined to REFUSE it on these grounds.

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:31:08 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> R129 says the game state is altered as if the
> Administrator's statement is true. 
>
Was true at the time, but yes.

> For the game state to be altered upon the truth
> of the Administrator's statement, it presupposes
> the Administrator's statement exists. 
>
Well, duh. ;-)

> After all, if the Administrator's statement existed,
> it would have some effect on the game state
> even without r129.
>
That's not necessarily true. In fact, it's generally false, and is only true in the specific cases where the rules say that the admin's statements have some effect (recognising proosals being the most obvious example). But when he says (for example) "uin gives the sushi to Rob", his statement is just a courtesy to us, and has no effect on the game. The admin's statement that p377 was recognised was one of the statements that has effect when he says it; his statement that it was on the ballot, however, is one of the courtesy ones.

> Yet, by r129, if an Administrator's statement is
> objected to, the game state is not altered to
> reflect the truth of said statement.  The game
> state may not fundamentally change from said
> absence, if it can be determined by CFJs and
> consensus and all, but it specifically was not
> altered to reflect the truth of the objected-to
> statement (again, let's call it S.)
>
Specifically was not altered *by* *rule* *129*. Nowhere does that prevent the gamestate from having been altered by other rules. When the admin recognises P377, the gamestate was altered by the rules governing proosals. So although rule 129 would not *make* the statement true if it was objected to, that doesn't stop the statement from *being* true anyway.

> The game state was altered, however, by the
> first subsequent Administrator statement that
> wasn't objected to (let's call it S+1); 
>
Well, that statement, if it were true anyway, wouldn't actually result in any *change* to the gamestate...

> yet, since
> the game state specifically wasn't altered by S,
> the alteration caused by S+1 still won't result in
> a game state that was altered by S.
>
That only matters if S was false. If S was true anyway, then the S+1 gamestate is the same regardless of whether S was objected to.

> But logic suggests that if the Administrator's
> statement existed, and especially if that statement
> was true, then it must have had an effect on the
> game state.
>
As above, no it doesn't. If the admin says that the gamestate is blue, that doesn't make it blue, except by r129. Likewise, if the admin says that p377 is on the ballot, that doesn't make it true, except by r129. The fact that it is true anyway has nothing to do with whether the admin says it is - unless you're suggesting that everything the admin says *is* the gamestate, even before r129 steps in?

> Since the game state was altered by S+1 in
> a way that specifically didn't stem from a game
> state altered by S, S must not have existed.
>
This is not the case. It was specifically not altered by *r129*; any alterations that other rules may have applied due to S are *not* affected.

uin.
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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:12:57 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/3/02 at 7:49 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Donald Whytock,
>> 
>> 
>>>> Proposal 409/0: I Have Found The Solution! (Baron von Skippy)
>>> No.  It needs better wording: As it's written now, it will rewrite r259
>> to
>>> say, "For the purposes of the rules, and for all other purposes within
>> the
>>> game, the term "proposal" shall be considered precisely equivalent to
>> the far
>>> superior term "proposal"."  If "proposal" is precisely equivalent to
>>> "proposal", yet "proposal" is far superior to "proposal", this is a
>> paradox.
>>> 
>>> Nice try, though.
>> 
>> Um... the words "except in r259" would seem to me to indicate that it
>> wouldn't rewrite r259 at all.... Unless this is some strange usage of the
>> word 'except' that I wasn't previously aware of...
>> 
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> The words "except in r259" are part of the second sentence, which has to do
> with proposals.  The first sentence, which has to do with existing rules,
> doesn't have that condition.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

Ah, I see. I apologize for not reading it carefully.

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:22:25 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Plague of Gremlins
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/3/02 at 7:42 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> {{
>> __They're Everywhere! Part 2__
>> 
>> Append to the rule entitled "Gremlins" the following WHEEE delimited text:
>> WHEEE
>> There exists an entity known as the Plague of Gremlins. All Gremlins are
>> considered to be part of the Plague of Gremlins. At the beginning of each
>> voting period, if all Gremlins are Hiding, all Gremlins become Active.
>> Otherwise, the following shall occur:
>> If the Gremlin number is greater than 62, the Plague of Gremlins votes No
>> on
>> k randomly chosen proposals on the current Ballot, where k is the 8th
>> Gremlin number.
>> If the Gremlin number is less than 59, the Plague of Gremlins votes Yes on
>> k
>> randomly chosen proposals on the current Ballot, where k is 9-(the 8th
>> Gremlin number).
>> If the Gremlin number is equal to 59, 60, 61, or 62, all Gremlins go into
>> Hiding, and may not become Active for at least 5 ndays.
>> 
>> This rule takes precedence over all rules which determine when Gremlins may
>> become Active.
>> WHEEE
>> }}
>> 
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> First off, you didn't say the rule takex precedence over all rules which
> determine when Gremlins go into Hiding, so rules that say a Gremlin goes into
> Hiding under such-and-such conditions, but are otherwise Active, would prevent
> the go-into-Hiding action.
> 
> Second...are we truly ready for the possibility that, as a matter of random
> chance, a rule may get passed that we flat-out don't want to see passed?  If
> someone had no concern for the prospects of lost points, e could wait until
> the Gremlin Number was high, then make all five of eir proposals as, "Player X
> gets 1000 points," on the off chance that e and the Gremlins together would
> adopt it.
> 
> If it is absolutely necessary for Gremlins to vote, how about having them each
> vote on different randomly selected proposals, so that k randomly chosen
> proposals on the ballot each receive an extra yes vote or an extra no vote?
> That'll at least only influence those proposals that are wanted by half the
> Players.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

My original intention was that the Plague would issue a *single* yes/no vote
for each proposal it voted on, not 1 per Active Gremlin. I'll clarify that.

--Wonko

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you. "
- Carl Gustav Jung

From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:23:25 -0600
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> >Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color=20
> Commentary (Scoff!)
> NO - This proposed rule is self-contradictory.  Two players=20
> can't hold the=20
> title, but then you say they can.

You misread the proposal.  It clearly says '"Color Commentator" is a Title.=
 The Title "Color Commentator" may not be held concurrently by more than tw=
o players.'  Nowhere does it restrict the Title to only one player.

--Scoff!

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:27:52 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan Van Matre,

>>> Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color
>> Commentary (Scoff!)
>> NO - This proposed rule is self-contradictory.  Two players
>> can't hold the 
>> title, but then you say they can.
> 
> You misread the proposal.  It clearly says '"Color Commentator" is a Title.
> The Title "Color Commentator" may not be held concurrently by more than two
> players.'  Nowhere does it restrict the Title to only one player.
> 
> --Scoff!
> 

The rule defining Titles restricts them to one player.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:30:09 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Jonathan Van Matre,
> 
>>>> Proposal 390/0: You Can't Have Football Without Color
>>> Commentary (Scoff!)
>>> NO - This proposed rule is self-contradictory.  Two players
>>> can't hold the 
>>> title, but then you say they can.
>> 
>> You misread the proposal.  It clearly says '"Color Commentator" is a Title.
>> The Title "Color Commentator" may not be held concurrently by more than two
>> players.'  Nowhere does it restrict the Title to only one player.
>> 
>> --Scoff!
>> 
> 
> The rule defining Titles restricts them to one player.
> 
> --Wonko
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
> people will find a way around the laws."
> - Plato
> 

Oops. No it doesn't. My mistake.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:32:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:
> The rule defining Titles restricts them to one player.

What???

>From Rule 263/1: "Unless otherwise specified by the rules, it is possible
that no player holds a certain title or that the same title is held by
multiple players at the same time."

I think that suggests the exact opposite.

Bean

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:33:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:
> > The rule defining Titles restricts them to one player.
> >
> > --Wonko
> >
> > "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
> > people will find a way around the laws."
> > - Plato
> >
>
> Oops. No it doesn't. My mistake.

Heh.  You sent that email as I was checking mine... bad timing I guess :)
The Nitpicking King strikes again!  Up, up, and away!

Bean

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:37:28 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,
 
> *sigh*... I wasn't taking my usual job or nitpicking this week... as such
> there are a number of proposals I'm only seeing now which are
> inconsistent.  My apologies.
> 
> You'll also note I'm abstaining a lot this week.  I've had a crazy week at
> work (we ship next week) and so I haven' had much time to keep up.  Caught
> up now though, and I should be able to pay my usualy obscene amount of
> attention to this game again.
> 

You're abstaining a lot more than you think it you don't send this to
Business, Your Highness. (speaking of nitpicking, isn't "usualy" usually
spelt with two l's?  ;)

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:49:31 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I'm movin'
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> I'm going to contend that The Voice *can* fly Elbonian this week, and run
> to (13, 11).
> 
> Bean
> 
Except e can't until the end of the nweek. I don't understand why we wait
until the end of the nweek to process moves...

--Wonko

"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?"
    - Seymour Cray, father of supercomputing

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:51:04 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 8
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:
>> You're abstaining a lot more than you think it you don't send this to
>> Business, Your Highness.
> 
> Shazbot.  That ain't good.  Thank goodness for the archive.
> 
>> (speaking of nitpicking, isn't "usualy" usually spelt with two l's?  ;)
> 
> Yes it is, but that was late last night.  But in the middle of the day you
> shouldn't have any excuse to spell 'if' with a 't' :)
> 
> Bean
> 
> 
Oops. Shif.

-- 
Wonko

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:00:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I'm movin'
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:

> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>
> > I'm going to contend that The Voice *can* fly Elbonian this week, and run
> > to (13, 11).
> >
> > Bean
> >
> Except e can't until the end of the nweek. I don't understand why we wait
> until the end of the nweek to process moves...

I like it.... adds an element of strategy to Football... do you declare
your move early or late??

Bean

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:48:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Yet Another amicus brief
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

(It's not really brief at all, I suppose.)

Just random snips from my mail archive:

Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:58:45 +0000 (GMT)
...
"So damn ugly." is 377/0.

(That was to -business; it was my official recognition of the proposal.)

Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:15:59 +0000 (GMT)
...
Uncle Psychosis revises "So damn ugly." (377/1) and gives 1 point to
Wonko.

(Recognition of its modification by Uncle Psychosis)

Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:14:45 +0000 (GMT)
...
377/1 passes (6-4-1).
I much preferred the version created by 375, but what the hell.
Created 129/2.
Just to test it out, I declare that the gamestate is Blue.
Uncle Psychosis scores 12 points.

(Vote results, in which the measure passes)

Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:56:48 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
...
So let's just make it official, as per your r129/2:

I object to the statement by the administrator that p377 passed.
I object to the statement by the administrator that p377 received six
 affirmative votes.
What the hell...I object to the statement by the administrator that p377
 was recognized and part of the ballot.

(I would point out at this time that the objections were sent to -discuss,
not -business. Thank you, drive through.)

The message-id headers are good grep bait, for searching the list
archives if nothing else. Searching for "377" is a bit ugly, because
someone's mail server is running version 377 of their software.

Now, let's play.

A (spurious) argument for FALSE could be: since the objection was only
sent to the -discuss list, it is possible that not all players received
the objection (which is required by 129/2). I doubt this is enough for a
ruling, since not even I have access to the subscribers' lists for the two
mailing lists. It is effectively impossible to determine whether or not
this objection holds any merit, especially since the makeup of the
-discuss subscriber list has likely changed since then (and it's not
common practice to keep that sort of thing archived).

A somewhat better argument for FALSE is thoughtfully provided for us by
129/2: "in which case the usual methods for determining the current rules
and game state shall apply."

It could be argued that The Administrator (i.e. me) is "the usual method"
for that sort of thing. It could just as easily be argued that the CFJ
process is "the usual method".

I maintain that the course of Proposal 377 (proosal, revision, ballot,
votes, vote counting, rule creation of 129/2) was wholly within the rules.

But maybe my word isn't good enough. Fine by me, I don't have much ego
left to be damaged anyhow. Working retail has pretty much broken me of
that...

The CFJ process is the most likely other form of recourse, and no CFJ
related to that proposal/ballot/vote was ever requested, to the best of my
knowledge (and the -business list archives would seem to back me up on
that assumption).

Even without 129/2, we're okay. 129/0 and 129/1 both place a one-nweek
time limit on such objections, which will expire in a matter of minutes.

As I made each of the statements against which objections have been made
more than 20 days (not ndays) ago, we're left with that whole "usual
method" business.

I would claim that CFJs are the usual method for determining the truth or
falsehood of an in-game statement, and no CFJ related to any of those
statements has been made.

Therefore, thanks to the 20-day rule, 129/2 stands.

(I would like to take this opportunity to point out that I think 129/2 is
a festering boil on the left butt-cheek of the personification of our
Nomic, and would like few things better than to see it go away, but I'm
having rather a hard time coming up with a plausible reason for that to
happen.)

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:02:37 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Another Brief
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Below is what UP sent to Spoon-Business, that turned into p377.

<proosal>
<title>So damn ugly.</title>
<body>
@@@
Amend rule 129 by replacing the current text with the following
MONUMENTOFGRANITE-delimited text:
MONUMENTOFGRANITE
20 days after the Administrator, in a message to all players, makes any
statement about the rules or game state, the rules and gamestate shall be
altered what they now would be had that statement been true at the time it
was made, unless in the intervening time any player objects to the statement
in a message to all players, in which case the usual methods for determining
the current rules and game state shall apply.

This rule takes precedence over all other rules.
MONUMENTOFGRANITE
[["It's simple, succinct, and elegant.  What more could you want?" - Bean]]
[[Now with added lack of dependence on other rules. Slightly more
redundancy, but slightly more ability to get us out of a broken game /
paradox situation.]]
@@@
</body>
</proosal>

The statements 
"I object to the statement by the administrator that p377 passed.
I object to the statement by the administrator that p377 received six
affirmative votes.
What the hell...I object to the statement by the administrator that p377 was
recognized and part of the ballot."
mean that "the usual methods" should determine whether the statements are
true. The usual method is, if one sends a proposal to business, it gets
recognized and goes on the ballot. If six people vote affirmatively for it,
it recieves six affirmative votes. If it recieved more affirmative votes
than negative votes, it passes.

All the objections do is turn off rule 129, so it doesn't affirm the admin's
statments. But that's okay, 'cause the statements were already true. The
whole point of rule 129 is so that if the admin makes a mistake, like
allowing someone to do something that's technically illegal (for instance,
if someone w/ the sushi takes an unsushied action), then if nobody notices
within two nweeks that the action was illegal, it becomes legal. But if
someone says "Wait, e can't do that!", then 129 doesn't make it legal, and
the fact that it is illegal kicks in. The reason we have that rule is so
that if Scoff! throws a Gremlin w/out sushiing it, and someone else catches
it and it gets chucked left and right, and nobody notices that it was never
legally thrown in the first place, then we act as if it were legal.

You'll never see a positive result of 129, because it only kicks in if
nobody notices.

Although I contend that r129 does work as it is supposed to, I still think
there must be a better way to implement it. For one thing, the current
system, assuming an error is caught just before the end of the 2 nweek
period, and the case is appealed, could take over three nweeks to resolve an
issue. I'm not sure how things could be arranged to work faster without
compromising things, but I'm sure there must be some way to do it. I'll
think about it.

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:11:09 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 8 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 03:54 AM 2002-03-05 +0000, The Admin wrote:
>426/0 fails (3-3-5).

At 11:56 PM 2002-03-03 -0500, Glotmorf wrote:
>I vote Yes on Proposal 425.
>
>I vote No on Proposal 426.
>
>I vote Yes on Proposal 427.

I'm sorry Glotmorf.... but because I'm currently in the slightly odd 
situation of being able to punt but not pass the football... I gotta ask 
you why I can't... No offense of course... I'm actually genuinely 
curious.... and confused....

Bean

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:00:33 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: I'm movin'
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/4/02 at 6:00 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:
>
>> Quoth Eric Gerlach,
>>
>> > I'm going to contend that The Voice *can* fly Elbonian this week, and
>run
>> > to (13, 11).
>> >
>> > Bean
>> >
>> Except e can't until the end of the nweek. I don't understand why we=
 wait
>> until the end of the nweek to process moves...
>
>I like it.... adds an element of strategy to Football... do you declare
>your move early or late??
>
>Bean

Vaguely reminiscent of Diplomacy, no?

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:12:44 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 8 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/5/02 at 3:54 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>414/0 somehow passes, despite the fact that it makes no sense (7-3-1).
>Created 437/0.
>Created 438/0.
>Glotmorf scores 12 points.

What part of "incorporating a proposal into the context of a story earns=
 ten points" didn't you understand? If it's the story itself you didn't=
 understand, well, wait until the next installment. :)

>That should do it, methinks.

You forgot Rocky.  It needs to drop a Big Rock somewhere.

BTW...it just occurred to me.  Uncle Psy proposed NOTHING this nweek?

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:21:56 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 8 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/4/02 at 11:11 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>At 03:54 AM 2002-03-05 +0000, The Admin wrote:
>>426/0 fails (3-3-5).
>
>At 11:56 PM 2002-03-03 -0500, Glotmorf wrote:
>>I vote Yes on Proposal 425.
>>
>>I vote No on Proposal 426.
>>
>>I vote Yes on Proposal 427.
>
>I'm sorry Glotmorf.... but because I'm currently in the slightly odd 
>situation of being able to punt but not pass the football... I gotta ask 
>you why I can't... No offense of course... I'm actually genuinely 
>curious.... and confused....
>
>Bean

Well, like I said in the first draft of my votes (where I irresponsibly=
 quoted what might have been volatile text from Mr. A), I'd like to see a=
 bit more randomness in pass reception, so that there's a small chance the=
 pass will miss.  Yes, the Super Bowl is fresh in my mind, and the word=
 "interception" keeps swimming around in my head.

Or perhaps a forward pass would be at a certain square rather than a=
 player, and incur a certain amount of delay because of its hang time...so=
 that even if it arrives on target, there's a small window for someone=
 using a pinball gun to knock the intended recipient out of the way and=
 move into position to catch...

Otherwise, it was pretty much automatic that the intended recipient of the=
 pass would in fact catch it.  And as side-splitting as it is to say this=
 in the context of a Nomic game...that's not realistic.

Guess I should have said something sooner.  I'm about as bad as all those=
 abstainers.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:29:37 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ: Ruling
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/5/02 at 2:18 PM [email-masked] wrote:

>Ruling: FALSE
>
>Analysis: r129/2 does not say that =93the game state is altered to a 
>state that doesn't include that statement=94 if it is objected to, it 
>says =93the usual methods for determining the current rules and game 
>state shall apply=94 if a statement is objected to.  I disagree with 
>Glortmorf=92s later argument that r129/2 implies that an =93objected to=94=
 
>and incorrect statement is removed from the game state.
>Hence the game state is _not_ altered per r129/2, and this CFJ is FALSE.
>
>[[If it worked at all, I consider r129/2 to have said that, for a given 
>statement, S, by the administrator:
>If S was correct, and no one objected to it, we continue play.
>If S was incorrect, but unnoticed within 20 days, we just continued 
>playing (even if we later noticed after 20 days).
>If S was incorrect, but noticed within 20 days, we would have to go 
>back and rectify our knowledge of the game state, effectivly beginning 
>again from just before the statement.
>But if S is correct, and someone objects (as in this case, the rules 
>are clear on the subject of what goes on the ballot), the objection 
>really has no effect on the game state at all.]]
>
>
>cheers,
>Iain

So...basically my fundamental contention that r129/2 is doing something bad=
 is met by the fundamental contention that it's actually not doing anything=
 at all...:)

						Glotmorf

From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:37:33 -0600
Subject: spoon-discuss: Upcoming proposal -- Oscars Betting Pool
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

*sigh*

I was hoping to get this last proposal in before the end of the nweek, but =
my spirit of game play rather killed it.  Although the sushi transfer hadn'=
t yet been recognized, I went ahead and considered myself sushied (avoiding=
 the circumventions I've previously pointed out), and then proceeded to fai=
l to recall that while votes can be sent privately to the Admin for later p=
osting to the list, proposals cannot, as evidenced by eir non-recognition o=
f my proposal.

So, look for an Oscars betting pool proposal coming as soon as I am free of=
 this Sushi.  And meanwhile, enjoy reading the sushified version of it in t=
he business forum, just for kicks.

--Scoff!

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:43:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ: Ruling
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Well, it makes inacurate, non-objected to statements true after 20 days,
I think....

cheers,
Iain

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:

> 
> So...basically my fundamental contention  that r129/2 is doing
something bad is met by the fundamental contention that it's  actually
not doing anything at all...:)
> 
> 						Glotmorf
> 
> 
> 

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:37:07 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/5/02 at 8:38 AM Jonathan Van Matre wrote:

>You knew and __, the Oscar it was legitimate, __ from that place as
>Oscars facility Gremlin the Gremlin which it knows it exists. 
>
>The Oscars the facility Gremlin starts 600 smallness activity existences.
>The bow obeys the roster of the winner whom inside the roster which comes
>after it is what of Oscar types or all for it plans in aerial forum the
>map which will enter does not know a B Nomic Oscars facility from,: 
>
>Inside the role which is important is important inside the actress and A
>support role the actress, (score) music, (song) the best picture, it saves
>the short film, the short film, when to save the feature film which learns
>the inside the player and A support role inside role, an art direction,
>the CINEMATOGRAPHY and a dress design, documentary feature, the foreign
>nation language film it edits, when time effect it edits, it instructs and
>when it writes, documentary short subject and film make-up, music -- the
>activity which is to live, sound and sound (under being adapted the zero
>anger base) it wrote, (the original motion picture base). 
>
>The bow does not know selects the person who in the maximum quantity has
>become one name distinction inside each type. The insect limit roster of
>the person who becomes distinction the }http{:
>//www.oscars.com/nominees/nominees_index.html For the each type which
>manufactures the person selection where the bow it could be discovered has
>become distinction, the bow 2 things smallness must give to a Oscars
>facility Gremlin. 
>
>The bow noon, March to center standard time a selection first, obeys makes
>amend does not know always at 24th and 2002 years. The submission which
>decides a time or opening a court will not accept after. Submitting and
>opening a court are not effective by the executive official recognize
>until. 
>
>The Oscars in conclusion of broadcasting, the Oscars facility Gremlin will
>present the result of facility inside the method which will come after,: 6
>name bows to select and inside type - each type, when that type (for
>example, the total which the bow obeys 12 smallness) inside smallness when
>positive 20 smallness inside - it manufactures between the bow which
>selects the person who had become the distinction which it wins rightly,
>the germ back, will be divided. The bow inside type does not manufacture a
>selection anh u the cotton, for that type of that time Oscars facility
>Gremlin 20 smallness will decrease in marks obtained Gremlin. 
>
>In order to select the smallness distribution which is equal possibility
>of the bow where inside event in the place the N manufactures a selection
>inside that type smallness is equal and that it will can be divided, the
>marks obtained Gremlin does not know addition N smallness until presents. 
>
>- All remainder smallness that time most big type it hits inside the
>property of Oscars facility Gremlin will and the player which it selects
>(S) it is equal and it is divided. Smallness is equal and when it could be
>divided, the Oscars Gremlin to under uniformity it could be distributed,
>the what kind of smallness will maintain. 
>
>Regarding the result of facility inside event of refutation, Oscars.com
>website as the last authority to be spared in the person who has become
>the distinction which it wins inside each type. The Oscars when it
>completes the medical service which the facility Gremlin makes above flaw
>E it sleeps, Oscars facility Gremlin the uncreated and this rule that time
>will withdraw. 
>
>--Scoff!

Okay...I think I see where this is going (and the preceding spoon-discuss=
 message helped), but may I suggest an alternative?  Rather than the Oscars=
 Gremlin, how about the Bookie Gremlin, which can be used for a variety of=
 similar bets?  With the Oscars being the first.

						Glotmorf

From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:50:47 -0600
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Good suggestion.  I'd actually been thinking along the same lines, but didn=
't have time to work out all the language for instantiating different betti=
ng games and all before the end of the nweek.  Now that I have the time on =
my hands, the un-sushified version in a few ndays will be able to include t=
hat feature.

The way I was thinking of it, the bookie would basically work one of two wa=
ys:

1) Games such as Oscar betting pool, which are group games defined by a pro=
posal and "administered" by the bookie.  These games would generally award =
winnings from the pool of points submitted by players, plus an additional a=
mount determined as a percentage of the total sum of all points possessed b=
y active players at the start of the game.  (I'm thinking 8% for one-winner=
 games, 20% for pool-type games where the winnings are shared among multipl=
e winners).

2) Individual betting arrangements between players, in which a player can h=
ave the bookie offer a specific bet and odds established by the player, and=
 other players may take that bet.  In these games, the bookie would earn a =
small commission on each bet.

Any further suggestions?  If so, send them my way.  I'll be tinkering with =
this for the next few ndays.

--Scoff!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:37 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal
>=20
>=20
> Okay...I think I see where this is going (and the preceding=20
> spoon-discuss message helped), but may I suggest an=20
> alternative?  Rather than the Oscars Gremlin, how about the=20
> Bookie Gremlin, which can be used for a variety of similar=20
> bets?  With the Oscars being the first.
>=20
> 						Glotmorf
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:00:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 8 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:
> Well, like I said in the first draft of my votes (where I irresponsibly
> quoted what might have been volatile text from Mr. A), I'd like to see a
> bit more randomness in pass reception, so that there's a small chance
> the pass will miss.  Yes, the Super Bowl is fresh in my mind, and the
> word "interception" keeps swimming around in my head.

Well, my plan was to get passing up and running, then modify it for
interceptions this nweek...

> Or perhaps a forward pass would be at a certain square rather than a
> player, and incur a certain amount of delay because of its hang
> time...so that even if it arrives on target, there's a small window for
> someone using a pinball gun to knock the intended recipient out of the
> way and move into position to catch...

That's one possibility

> Otherwise, it was pretty much automatic that the intended recipient of
> the pass would in fact catch it.  And as side-splitting as it is to say
> this in the context of a Nomic game...that's not realistic.

Well, yeah... but the thing is... you get something that works in, and
then you tweak it to work better.  Scoff! and I found that out the hard
way with judical reform.  Don't do things in one go.... do them in little
chunks.

Besides, you could have proposed an interception rule, and gotten points
off of it.... :)

> Guess I should have said something sooner.  I'm about as bad as all
> those abstainers.

Yeah.... I've noticed that Football seems to have a great deal of apathy
towards it.  Well, I'll continue hoping that more people will join teams
and try to stop me from getting 20 points by getting to the end zone.  I
also hope that by next nweek a) I'll be able to pass, and b) I'll have
someone to pass to.

Bean

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 11:27:29 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ: Ruling
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> So...basically my fundamental contention that
> r129/2 is doing something bad is met by the
> fundamental contention that it's actually not
> doing anything at all...:)
>
In the conditions where it would be bad for it to do something? Yes.

It only does anything where the admin says something wrong, and we don't object. Since that will (usually) be when we don't notice, we'll (usually) not notice that it's doing anything. If you still cling to the idea that the admin's statements are the gamestate, then I suppose you could say it does nothing...

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:02:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 8 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:

> You forgot Rocky.  It needs to drop a Big Rock somewhere.

Rocky acts at the end of each nweek, not the beginning. A Big Rock was
dropped earlier in that email.

...dave

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:55:37 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 8 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/5/02 at 11:02 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:
>
>> You forgot Rocky.  It needs to drop a Big Rock somewhere.
>
>Rocky acts at the end of each nweek, not the beginning. A Big Rock was
>dropped earlier in that email.
>
>...dave

Most humble apologies.  I see it now.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:28:05 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposal: fixing the window.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/5/02 at 8:06 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>{{ __Ohh, one of those "funky" windows...__
>
>Amend rule 402 by adding the following -0- delimited text:
>
>-0-
>Whenever the weather is updated, Curt and Rod will take 3 moves in random 
>directions.
>-0-
>
>Also, if checkpoints exist, replace the string 'Whenever the weather is 
>updated' with 'At every Checkpoint' (both with no single quotes).
>}}
>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

Um...dude?  Doesn't the weather change, like, daily?

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proposal: fixing the window.
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:48:35 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> >-0-
> >Whenever the weather is updated, Curt and Rod will take 3 moves in random
> >directions.
> >-0-
> >
> >Also, if checkpoints exist, replace the string 'Whenever the weather is
> >updated' with 'At every Checkpoint' (both with no single quotes).
> >}}
> >
> >
> >-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
>
>Um...dude?  Doesn't the weather change, like, daily?
>
>						Glotmorf

Yes, but the Weather is "updated" only twice an nweek.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:45:43 -0600
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: One more sausage to cram into the can...
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The Scarf shouldn't have an Izing -- it completely defeats the purpose of t=
he Scarf.  The Scarf / Style Police is a way for us to reward each other fo=
r particularly clever or thoughtful participation in the game.  If it becom=
es obligatory for everyone to receive the award before it can be given to t=
he same person again, that makes the award essentially meaningless.

One might argue that Respect is there to take its place, but I think Respec=
t has a lot of problems:

- We have to wait at least a full nweek (plus however many ndays prior to t=
he proposal the action happened) for the Respect proposal to be adopted.
- Rewards the author (at least presently) with Charm and affirmative votes.
- Doesn't confer anything especially fun along with the Respect Points.  Wi=
th the Scarf you get the ability to add Style Attributes and several fun op=
tional gender-based behaviors to play around with.

If you're going to put an Izing on the Scarf, then I suggest you add a mod =
to the Scarf rule that instantly removes the Izing from a player when e awa=
rds the Scarf to another player.

--Scoff!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 11:35 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: spoon-business: One more sausage to cram into the can...
>=20
>=20
> {{ _Izing on the Cake_
>=20
> Create a new rule:
>=20
> {{ _Izings_
>=20
> Each object in the game that can be owned by a Player has an=20
> appropriate Izing attribute that is assigned to the Player=20
> upon ownership.  Once a Player has acquired the Izing for an=20
> object, upon losing ownership of that object, e cannot again=20
> own the object until the Izing has been removed from em.  If=20
> all Players have a particular Izing, that Izing is removed=20
> from all Players.
>=20
> Izings for existing objects are as follows:
>=20
> The Token of Proposals: Tokenized
>=20
> The Immunity Idol: Idolized
>=20
> The Pink Cashmere Scarf of Impeccable Style: Stylized
>=20
> The Cursed Sushi of Babel: Babelized
>=20
> [[ Sushi-ized just didn't do it for me.]]
>=20
> }}
>=20
> }}

Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 14:19:18 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: One more sausage to
  cram into the can...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/6/02 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Van Matre wrote:

>The Scarf shouldn't have an Izing -- it completely defeats the purpose of
>the Scarf.  The Scarf / Style Police is a way for us to reward each other
>for particularly clever or thoughtful participation in the game.  If it
>becomes obligatory for everyone to receive the award before it can be
>given to the same person again, that makes the award essentially
>meaningless.
>
>One might argue that Respect is there to take its place, but I think
>Respect has a lot of problems:
>
>- We have to wait at least a full nweek (plus however many ndays prior to
>the proposal the action happened) for the Respect proposal to be adopted.
>- Rewards the author (at least presently) with Charm and affirmative=
 votes.
>- Doesn't confer anything especially fun along with the Respect Points. 
>With the Scarf you get the ability to add Style Attributes and several fun
>optional gender-based behaviors to play around with.
>
>If you're going to put an Izing on the Scarf, then I suggest you add a mod
>to the Scarf rule that instantly removes the Izing from a player when e
>awards the Scarf to another player.
>
>--Scoff!

The key words in the above statement, I feel, are in the second sentence:=
 "reward each other".  While awarding Respect occurs as a result of the=
 majority opinion of the Players, the awarding of the Scarf is a result of=
 a single Player's act.  It is therefore possible for two Players to agree=
 to award each other the Scarf time after time, thus ensuring a steady flow=
 of score points.

If you feel that there may be people to whom the Scarf should never be=
 given, perhaps the proposed rule can be changed to remove Izings after,=
 say, 80% of the Players have received them.

						Glotmorf

From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:34:04 -0600
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: One more sausage to cram into the can...
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

If 2 players are conspiring to pass the scarf back and forth to each other,=
 it only takes a majority vote on 1 proposals to forcibly remove it from th=
eir possession, or even ban them from receiving it in the future.  I think =
that's enough deterrent for a crime we haven't even had a problem with thus=
 far.  With the exception of Rob, no one has even had it more than once, an=
d e only got points for it the sceond time.

Still, if you're concerned about that, why not remove the Izing instantly a=
s suggested previously, but also change the Scarf rule to forbid a player f=
rom awarding the scarf to the player who awarded it to em.

Even that is a bit of a limit on the Scarf, since some players may be Styli=
sh in streaks, and deserve the Scarf more than once in rapid succession bef=
ore receding back to a more natural level of style mediocrity.  The idea wa=
s to recognize specific cool acts when they happen, but a 100% or even 80% =
spread-it-around approach limits our ability to recognize them. =20

Then you get the Susan Lucci effect -- if you give her an Emmy now, when sh=
e did her best work years ago, you're rewarding her for inferior work.  Wha=
t one should have done, of course, if give her an Emmy back when she was at=
 her peak and clearly deserved it.

Likewise, as the list of available recipients shrinks, we may find ourselve=
s overlooking really cool stuff to reward someone whose only proposal that =
nweek might have been "Phat Dawg wins B Nomic.  Neener neener."

--Scoff!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Whytock [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 1:19 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: One more=20
> sausage to cram
> into the can...
>=20
>=20
> On 3/6/02 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Van Matre wrote:
>=20
> >The Scarf shouldn't have an Izing -- it completely defeats=20
> the purpose of
> >the Scarf.  The Scarf / Style Police is a way for us to=20
> reward each other
> >for particularly clever or thoughtful participation in the=20
> game.  If it
> >becomes obligatory for everyone to receive the award before it can be
> >given to the same person again, that makes the award essentially
> >meaningless.
> >
> >One might argue that Respect is there to take its place, but I think
> >Respect has a lot of problems:
> >
> >- We have to wait at least a full nweek (plus however many=20
> ndays prior to
> >the proposal the action happened) for the Respect proposal=20
> to be adopted.
> >- Rewards the author (at least presently) with Charm and=20
> affirmative votes.
> >- Doesn't confer anything especially fun along with the=20
> Respect Points.=20
> >With the Scarf you get the ability to add Style Attributes=20
> and several fun
> >optional gender-based behaviors to play around with.
> >
> >If you're going to put an Izing on the Scarf, then I suggest=20
> you add a mod
> >to the Scarf rule that instantly removes the Izing from a=20
> player when e
> >awards the Scarf to another player.
> >
> >--Scoff!
>=20
> The key words in the above statement, I feel, are in the=20
> second sentence: "reward each other".  While awarding Respect=20
> occurs as a result of the majority opinion of the Players,=20
> the awarding of the Scarf is a result of a single Player's=20
> act.  It is therefore possible for two Players to agree to=20
> award each other the Scarf time after time, thus ensuring a=20
> steady flow of score points.
>=20
> If you feel that there may be people to whom the Scarf should=20
> never be given, perhaps the proposed rule can be changed to=20
> remove Izings after, say, 80% of the Players have received them.
>=20
> 						Glotmorf
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:53:19 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Wind v2.0
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> {{ __You're STILL a Blowhard!__
> 
> [[
> 
> Watch your aim again!
> The wind is still blowing and
> targets will be missed.
> 
> ]]
> 
> Append the following -0- delimited text to the end of rule 405/0:
> 
> -0-
> Wind is a Characteristic.
> 
> Wind has two sub-characteristics, Speed (S) and Direction (D). All objects
> which are thrown on the Grid (gremlins, players via E.A., etc.) behave in
> the following manner: If 5<S<10, the thrown object falls 1 square away from
> the intended target in the direction of D (north, west, southeast, etc.).
> 
> If 10<S<20, the thrown object falls 2 squares away from the intended target
> in the direction of D.
> If 20<S<30, the thrown object falls 3 squares away from the intended target
> in the direction of D.
> If 30<S<40, the thrown object automatically falls into Limbo.
> 
> If an object is in flight when S and D are updated, its target is changed
> relative to its once-adjusted position.
> 
> If an object falls off of the Grid due to Wind, it falls into Limbo.
> -0-
> 
> 
> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> *Ignore this signature if :
> 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> 2) it seems outdated
> 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> Thank you, and have a nice day.*
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 

It seems to me that having your signature in the proposal could be bad...
You wanna add the closing }}?

--Wonko

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:50:34 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Wind v2.0
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 05:53:19PM -0500, Wonko wrote:
> > -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> > *Ignore this signature if :
> > 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> > 2) it seems outdated
> > 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> > 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> > Thank you, and have a nice day.*
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> > 
> 
> It seems to me that having your signature in the proposal could be bad...
> You wanna add the closing }}?

Oh no! We would all be required to ignore The Voice's signature under
certain conditions, to have a nice day, AND to send and recieve Hotmail
on our mobile devices!

I can just see it. "I submit a CFJ stating that Wonko hasn't sent any
Hotmail recently." "Well, I say that the CFJ is invalid because Rob
wasn't having a nice day at the time."
-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Wind v2.0
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:09:06 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

It seems to me that having your signature in the proposal could be bad...
You wanna add the closing }}?

--Wonko

-Or at the very least not surround your signature with your delimiters.-

                                              -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:08:02 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/6/02 at 4:40 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>Statement: I did not recieve the Token of Proposals because I also
>recieved 
>the Immunity Idol.
>
>I name the Administrator as Defendant.
>
>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

Is there a particular order that those two events are supposed to happen=
 in?  Does one happen before the other, perhaps based on the sequence of=
 the rules that define them?

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:10:39 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Anthologies
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/6/02 at 7:05 PM Wonko wrote:

>{{
>__Anthologies__
>
>{{
>__Anthologis__
>
>An Anthology is a Poetic Form. To be an Anthology, a proposal must contain
>multiple sections, each of which must be a Poetic Form. The Form bonus for
>an Anthology is the bonus of the Form whose bonus is worth the most points
>of the Forms used in the Anthology, plus 3*(the number of Poetic Forms
>used). The Anthology does not count as a Poetic Form for the purposes of
>determining this.
>}}
>}}

Do they all have to be different Poetic Forms?  Or can it be, say, two=
 limericks and a haiku?

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:11:50 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Wind v2.0
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/6/02 at 8:50 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>Oh no! We would all be required to ignore The Voice's signature under
>certain conditions, to have a nice day, AND to send and recieve Hotmail
>on our mobile devices!
>
>I can just see it. "I submit a CFJ stating that Wonko hasn't sent any
>Hotmail recently." "Well, I say that the CFJ is invalid because Rob
>wasn't having a nice day at the time."
>-- 
>Rob Speer

You blew it already.  You didn't ignore eir signature.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:26:24 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: One more sausage to
  cram into the can...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/6/02 at 2:34 PM Jonathan Van Matre wrote:

>If 2 players are conspiring to pass the scarf back and forth to each
>other, it only takes a majority vote on 1 proposals to forcibly remove it
>from their possession, or even ban them from receiving it in the future. 
>I think that's enough deterrent for a crime we haven't even had a problem
>with thus far.  With the exception of Rob, no one has even had it more
>than once, and e only got points for it the sceond time.
>
>Still, if you're concerned about that, why not remove the Izing instantly
>as suggested previously, but also change the Scarf rule to forbid a player
>from awarding the scarf to the player who awarded it to em.
>
>Even that is a bit of a limit on the Scarf, since some players may be
>Stylish in streaks, and deserve the Scarf more than once in rapid
>succession before receding back to a more natural level of style
>mediocrity.  The idea was to recognize specific cool acts when they
>happen, but a 100% or even 80% spread-it-around approach limits our
>ability to recognize them.  
>
>Then you get the Susan Lucci effect -- if you give her an Emmy now, when
>she did her best work years ago, you're rewarding her for inferior work. 
>What one should have done, of course, if give her an Emmy back when she
>was at her peak and clearly deserved it.
>
>Likewise, as the list of available recipients shrinks, we may find
>ourselves overlooking really cool stuff to reward someone whose only
>proposal that nweek might have been "Phat Dawg wins B Nomic.  Neener
>neener."
>
>--Scoff!

Problem is, even if there's no agreement to exchange the scarf, selecting a=
 recipient for the scarf is an inherently subjective act: it depends on the=
 player giving the scarf, who may well admire another's style because it=
 seems to be a reflection of eir own.  Get two people who admire each=
 other's style, and you have the same problem, accident or incident,=
 omission or commission, conspiracy or conviviality.

Even if that widens to three or four people, it can still become a clique=
 of mutual admirers.  Whereupon someone else's definition of style may be=
 such that e'd eagerly award the scarf to someone the clique wouldn't even=
 consider.  Take Uncle Psy, for example.  I'll be honest.  He pisses me off=
 sometimes.  I get really annoyed when he does a phrase-by-phrase=
 deconstruction of my email.  And yet, at the same time, it takes a special=
 sort of nerve to do some of the things he does, which I might compare to,=
 say, Abbie Hoffman or Alanis Morrisette.  Were I in the right mood, I=
 might well give him the scarf.

Alternately, say there's one person that everyone pretty much agrees has=
 the finest style in the game, such that whoever e gives it to is most=
 likely to give it back to em.  Okay, fine, e's the most stylish.  Having=
 determined that, does that mean there's no one else worthy of the title?

To be forced to make a decision regarding style about people whom you might=
 not normally associate with the word is to reconsider their nature, their=
 inherent value and your opinion of them.  If necessary I might go as far=
 as 60%, but for that I'd prefer scarf awarding was done by nweekly=
 majority vote.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:29:10 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Ice Gnomes
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/6/02 at 5:55 PM Wonko wrote:

>{{
>__A Chilly Prospect__
>
>Create:
>{{
>__Ice Gnomes__
>
>There exist Gnomes of type Ice. If a square is occuppied by either an Ice
>Gnome or an entity which holds an Ice Gnome, then the properties of that
>square and all entities on that square shall be calculated as if the
>temperature were 40 degrees colder, and the properties of the squares
>consecutive to that square and all entities on those square shall be
>calculated as if the temperature were 30 degrees colder.
>
>If the Yeti possesses an Ice Gnome, it moves 1 extra space whenever it
>would
>move normally. At the end of each nweek, if the Yeti has any Ice Gnome in
>its possession, it Eats one of them, destroying it.
>}}
>
>Create 3 Ice Gnomes at random locations on the Grid.
>
>Create an Ice Gnome and place it in the possession of the Yeti.
>}}
>
>--Wonko

Can the Yeti come to possess things in any way other than this proposal?

						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:32:41 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: One more sausage to cram
    into the can...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Take Uncle Psy, for example.  I'll be honest.  He
> pisses me off sometimes.  I get really annoyed
> when he does a phrase-by-phrase deconstruction
> of my email.  And yet, at the same time, it takes
> a special sort of nerve to do some of the things he
> does, which I might compare to, say, Abbie
> Hoffman or Alanis Morrisette.  Were I in the right
> mood, I might well give him the scarf.
>
Abbie Hoffman and Alanis Morrisette... my two heroes.

Hmm.

uin.
-- 

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:33:03 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Bribery
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I submit a CFJ with the statement: Uncle
> Psychosis did not take 3 points from
> anyone.
>
Umm... duh?

uin.
-- 

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Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:42:48 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/7/02 at 9:34 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

><prooosal>
><title>Like a fridge.</title>
><body>
>Second last sentence
>Of rule two-five-eight: remove
>Comma to full stop.
>
>[[No points for the scarf - style is its own reward.]]
></body>
></proosal>
>
>uin.

Dude...I think you might mean "second last para".  The second to the last=
 sentence is "The Style Police may not award The Pink Scarf to emself."

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:40:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Lepage <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: Scarf
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

To be forced to make a decision regarding style about
people whom you might not normally associate with the
word is to reconsider their nature, their inherent
value and your opinion of them.  If necessary I might
go as far as 60%, but for that I'd prefer scarf
awarding was done by nweekly majority vote.

						Glotmorf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why not just leave it as it is? Right now, yes,
there's always the possibility that two people will
monopolize the scarf, but if that happens somebody
else could simply *propose* to move it to a different
player (and the two monopolizers probably wouldn't get
it back for a long time).

--Wonko

__________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:42:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Lepage <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Ice
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Can the Yeti come to possess things in any way 
>other than this proposal?

Not yet...

--Wonko

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Motion to Add
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:08:17 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

this is a Motion to Add as a player M'lisilinaath
Ethifel Aenea Thabana Aes Sedai, henceforth to be
known as Naath.
-Fresh meat... mmm...-

Naath
hoping she did that vaguley right.
-As long as you can prove you're not a computer.-

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the 
universe together it does, hmm.
-However, "May the force be with you" sounds a whole lot nicer than "May you 
be wrapped in duct tape."-

                                           -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:46:10 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Anthologies
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/6/02 at 7:05 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> {{
>> __Anthologies__
>> 
>> {{
>> __Anthologis__
>> 
>> An Anthology is a Poetic Form. To be an Anthology, a proposal must contain
>> multiple sections, each of which must be a Poetic Form. The Form bonus for
>> an Anthology is the bonus of the Form whose bonus is worth the most points
>> of the Forms used in the Anthology, plus 3*(the number of Poetic Forms
>> used). The Anthology does not count as a Poetic Form for the purposes of
>> determining this.
>> }}
>> }}
> 
> Do they all have to be different Poetic Forms?  Or can it be, say, two
> limericks and a haiku?
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

Sure it could. You'd get 5 points for the haiku and 6 extra points for using
both Haikus and Limericks.

--Wonko

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you. "
- Carl Gustav Jung

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 23:26:08 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Motion to Add
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Naath Thabana,

> this is a Motion to Add as a player M'lisilinaath
> Ethifel Aenea Thabana Aes Sedai, henceforth to be
> known as Naath.
> 
> Naath
> hoping she did that vaguley right.

An associate of the ex-player M'cachessilnath, perhaps?
(And a fan of Robert Jordan, I see. Very cool.)

--Wonko

"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?"
    - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Livest still this game?
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 08:45:03 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 The last thing in your mail archives is 28th Feb - is this game still
being played?

 J.

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 03:53:32 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Motion to Add
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/7/02 at 8:21 PM Naath Thabana wrote:

>this is a Motion to Add as a player M'lisilinaath
>Ethifel Aenea Thabana Aes Sedai, henceforth to be
>known as Naath.
>
>Naath
>hoping she did that vaguley right.

Not sure about "vaguley" as a correct spelling, but otherwise more than=
 sufficient.

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 03:57:05 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: "Jonathan David Amery" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Livest still this game?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/8/02 at 8:45 AM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>The last thing in your mail archives is 28th Feb - is this game still
>being played?
>
> J.

Almost feverishly.  I get something like 20 emails a day.

Hope that doesn't scare you off...

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:45:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Motion to Add
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> 
> An associate of the ex-player M'cachessilnath,
> perhaps?
yes indeedy (who else has such uselessly long names)
> (And a fan of Robert Jordan, I see. Very cool.)
ohyes... he's brilliant (should write more)

> "If you were plowing a field, which would you rather
> use? Two strong oxen or
> 1024 chickens?"
what?

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Livest still this game? 
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:46:49 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

[Oops - meant to send this to the list...]
> On 3/8/02 at 8:45 AM Jonathan David Amery wrote:
> 
> >The last thing in your mail archives is 28th Feb - is this game still
> >being played?
> >
> > J.
> 
> Almost feverishly.  I get something like 20 emails a day.
> 
> Hope that doesn't scare you off...
> 
 I used to play in Ackanomic (before the Schism) - a mere 20 mails a
day is nothing <grins>.

 My usual method of reading mailing lists is to get my sysadmin to
mirror them to a newsgroup locally - do you have any objection to this
(the system has about 100 users, maybe more - but most of them are
unlikely to notice and the rest either probably won't care or may even
want to join in too).

 J.

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:48:46 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> I catch the Witch Gremlin and throw it to Baron von Thkippy.
> -I catch the Witch Gremlin, compare its weight to that of a duck, set fire
> to it [[She's a witch! Burn her!]], and throw it to Antonio. In doing so, I
> have to get rid of my torch, so I drop it and inadvertantly set fire to my
> foot. Ouch.-
> 
> -Cheers,-
> -BvS-
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 

Dude... didn't Antonio drop AWOL 2 nweeks ago?

--Wonko

"Attention to health is lifes greatest hindrance. "
    - Plato

"Plato was a bore. "
    - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal. "
    - Leo Tolstoy

"I'm not going to get into the ring with Tolstoy. "
    - Ernest Hemingway

"Hemingway was a jerk. "
    - Harold Robbins

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:51:49 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Keywords
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Say, you know those little keyword links atop the rule summaries of the
Current Rules page? And you know how when you click 'em you get a list of
all the Rules with that Keyword? Wouldn't it be cool if the Keywords page
listed the keywords as links to all the Rules with that Keyword? Just a
suggestion...

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:56:24 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Dude... didn't Antonio drop AWOL 2 nweeks ago?
-Did he? He's on the Grid. Fine... Um, I rescind that, then, as e is not a 
viable target, and instead throw the flaming Witch Gremlin to Wonko, who I 
now know is on the Grid. Then I run cold water over my hands.-

                                              -BvS-

"Geek Patrol: Helping make ordinary people's lives slightly more surreal."

                        -Jon Rosenberg

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:59:11 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Proosal?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: Discussion Nomic <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Um... I was just looking over the rules, and I couldn't help noticing that
the records say "proposal" is equivalent to "proosal". I seem to recall that
'Same as it Never Was' passed, and so I suspect the text ought to be other
than it is...

--Wonko

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
- Salvador Dali

Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 00:04:18 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> Statement: I did not recieve the Token of Proposals because I also recieved
> the Immunity Idol.
> 
> I name the Administrator as Defendant.
> 
> 
> 
> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> *Ignore this signature if :
> 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> 2) it seems outdated
> 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> Thank you, and have a nice day.*
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> 
{{
__Respect__
For gallantly CFJ'ing emself, we respect The Voice.
}}

We've got Respect. Let's use it!
--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon)
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:20:55 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Baron von Skippy's move is queued. (BvS: X is horizontal - left/right,
east/west, whatever. Y is the other one. Grid coords are (X,Y).)
-That's what I thought, since that's how Cartesian coordinates work, but 
last time I did that, it wasn't right. Maybe Babelfish reversed the two 
numbers. Anyway, that's clarified. And there is peace in the valley...-

                                              -BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:23:41 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/8/02 at 11:56 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>Dude... didn't Antonio drop AWOL 2 nweeks ago?
>-Did he? He's on the Grid. Fine... Um, I rescind that, then, as e is not a=
 
>viable target, and instead throw the flaming Witch Gremlin to Wonko, who I=
 
>now know is on the Grid. Then I run cold water over my hands.-
>
>                                              -BvS-
>
Just because a Player has left the game doesn't mean e's not a valid target=
 for a gremlin toss.  I think we went through this before with another=
 ghost Player...the Gremlin pretty much impacts the cardboard cutout on the=
 grid and falls.  Or something.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:30:09 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Anthologies
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/7/02 at 10:46 PM Wonko wrote:

>Sure it could. You'd get 5 points for the haiku and 6 extra points for
>using
>both Haikus and Limericks.
>
>--Wonko

Okay, but what if it was, like, three Limericks?  Would that still be an=
 Anthology of Limericks?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:40:40 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal Overhaul
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/9/02 at 5:51 PM Wonko wrote:

>I replace proposal 432 with the following:
>{{
>__Literary Criticism__
>
>Replace the last sentence of rule 438 with the following:
>" When a player votes on a proposal which is in Prose Form, e may also=
 give
>that proposal a rating, which is an integer between 0 and 15. If e does
>not,
>e is assumed to have given that proposal a rating of 7. If a proposal in
>Prose Form passes, its proponent recieves a number of points equal to the
>average of all ratings given to that proposal by players other than the
>proponent."
>}}
>
>Rationale: The way it's worded right now, I could argue that I should get
>ten points for including [[The man said,]] at the beginning of each of my
>proposals. This way, I could do that, but everyone would rate it 0.
>
>Oh, and before I forget, I Object to every statement made by the Admin=
 that
>involves "The second law of thermodynamics". (because otherwise two nweeks
>from now the correctly spelled one will be replaced by the incorrectly
>spelled (and undefined) one).
>
>
>--Wonko

You can object if you want, but with 129/3 now in effect, all you're doing=
 is voicing your opinion.

Regarding the Prose Form change: I gather you didn't want to try to nail=
 down a definition of story or narrative?

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:43:57 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Dude... didn't Antonio drop AWOL 2 nweeks ago?
 >-Did he? He's on the Grid. Fine... Um, I rescind that, then, as e is not a
 >viable target, and instead throw the flaming Witch Gremlin to Wonko, who I
 >now know is on the Grid. Then I run cold water over my hands.-
 >
 >                                              -BvS-
 >
Just because a Player has left the game doesn't mean e's not a valid target 
for a gremlin toss.  I think we went through this before with another ghost 
Player...the Gremlin pretty much impacts the cardboard cutout on the grid 
and falls.  Or something.

						Glotmorf

-I don't know. Did we? Anyway, I threw it to Wonko, and I'm not touching 
that hot potato again, thanks.-

"Geek Patrol: Helping make ordinary people's lives slightly more surreal."

                        -Jon Rosenberg

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon)
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:41:11 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The Voice's "Token vs Idol" CFJ is 450. Wonko, you'll have to randonly
 > select a player to Judge this, as I'm the Defendant.

Mr. Dice Roller has decreed that the Baron is the Judge.
-I thought I was on the LOMJ... I'll try not to get put BACK on it, I 
guess.-

Wait a minute... Don't we have to be within 7 squares of our targets to
throw to them? Meaning that Rob never threw the Witch in the first place?
-There's something about 7 spaces? Well, then, I couldn't have ever thrown 
it to Antonio, e's across the board from me.-

"Geek Patrol: Helping make ordinary people's lives slightly more surreal."

                        -Jon Rosenberg

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 00:02:51 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/8/02 at 11:56 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:
> 
>> Dude... didn't Antonio drop AWOL 2 nweeks ago?
>> -Did he? He's on the Grid. Fine... Um, I rescind that, then, as e is not a
>> viable target, and instead throw the flaming Witch Gremlin to Wonko, who I
>> now know is on the Grid. Then I run cold water over my hands.-
>> 
>> -BvS-
>> 
> Just because a Player has left the game doesn't mean e's not a valid target
> for a gremlin toss.  I think we went through this before with another ghost
> Player...the Gremlin pretty much impacts the cardboard cutout on the grid and
> falls.  Or something.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
The rule says you can't throw Glins at players On Leave. Antonio was on
Forced Leave (nweek 7)

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 00:03:29 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Anthologies
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/7/02 at 10:46 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Sure it could. You'd get 5 points for the haiku and 6 extra points for
>> using
>> both Haikus and Limericks.
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> Okay, but what if it was, like, three Limericks?  Would that still be an
> Anthology of Limericks?
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
The way it's written right now, you'd get 4 points for using limericks, plus
three points for having more than one of them.

--Wonko

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
- Salvador Dali

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 00:03:58 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal Overhaul
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/9/02 at 5:51 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> I replace proposal 432 with the following:
>> {{
>> __Literary Criticism__
>> 
>> Replace the last sentence of rule 438 with the following:
>> " When a player votes on a proposal which is in Prose Form, e may also give
>> that proposal a rating, which is an integer between 0 and 15. If e does
>> not,
>> e is assumed to have given that proposal a rating of 7. If a proposal in
>> Prose Form passes, its proponent recieves a number of points equal to the
>> average of all ratings given to that proposal by players other than the
>> proponent."
>> }}
>> 
>> Rationale: The way it's worded right now, I could argue that I should get
>> ten points for including [[The man said,]] at the beginning of each of my
>> proposals. This way, I could do that, but everyone would rate it 0.
>> 
>> Oh, and before I forget, I Object to every statement made by the Admin that
>> involves "The second law of thermodynamics". (because otherwise two nweeks
>> from now the correctly spelled one will be replaced by the incorrectly
>> spelled (and undefined) one).
>> 
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> You can object if you want, but with 129/3 now in effect, all you're doing is
> voicing your opinion.
Oh. Well, whatever.
> Regarding the Prose Form change: I gather you didn't want to try to nail down
> a definition of story or narrative?

Can you come up with a good way to do it?

-- 
Wonko

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 00:15:56 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/10/02 at 12:02 AM Wonko wrote:

>The rule says you can't throw Glins at players On Leave. Antonio was on
>Forced Leave (nweek 7)
>
>--Wonko

Right, but if he's totally gone now, he's not On Leave.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 00:26:27 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thtyle and Gremball
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/10/02 at 12:02 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> The rule says you can't throw Glins at players On Leave. Antonio was on
>> Forced Leave (nweek 7)
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> Right, but if he's totally gone now, he's not On Leave.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
I don't think he disappears until the end of this nweek.

--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 02:12:33 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Hey, why not?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/10/02 at 12:13 AM Wonko wrote:

>I amend all my proposals to add to the beginning of each of eir texts the
>following $ delimited text:
>$[[It was dark. The man said: ]]$
>
>--Wonko

Bother.  While I don't think that makes eir proposals qualify as stories=
 because there's a lack of a plot or a resolution, it might qualify as a=
 narrative. :P  Therefore...as soon as Mr. A recognizes my other two=
 proposals I'll probably be doing the same.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:28:54 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ: bandwidth violation
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> CFJ: Wonko has exceeded eir bandwidth limitations for this nweek.
> 
> Analysis: I count eight.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
It's legal for me to have so many because four of them were made during last
nweek's Voting period, and the limit is per nweek, not per Ballot.

Actually, now that I look at it, I made nine, but one of them was never put
on the page for some reason:

On 3/6/02 at 12:01 PM I wrote:
> {{
> __A little Wiggle room__
> 
> Once Voting is done
> Add four to each rule's Chutzpah.
> That will be more fun.
> 
> }}
> 
> Giving all rules Czp1 makes it impossible to make
> deferential rules via the Chutzpah system. If the base
> value is five, then we can make less precedential
> rules.
> 
> 
> --Wonko
> Donkey the the in inside.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/

On 3/9/02 at 3:05 PM David E. Smith wrote:
>"A little Wiggle room" is 449/0.

But somehow it never actually got on the page.

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon)
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:14:46 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>The Voice's "Token vs Idol" CFJ is 450. Wonko, you'll have to randonly
 >> select a player to Judge this, as I'm the Defendant.
 >
 > Mr. Dice Roller has decreed that the Baron is the Judge.
 > -I thought I was on the LOMJ... I'll try not to get put BACK on it, I
 > guess.-

Oops. I missed that. Okay, now Mister Dice Roller says Glotmorf judges. Is
there anything illegal about that?
-Wait, wait, come back! Grr.-

 > Wait a minute... Don't we have to be within 7 squares of our targets to
 > throw to them? Meaning that Rob never threw the Witch in the first place?
 > -There's something about 7 spaces? Well, then, I couldn't have ever 
thrown
 > it to Antonio, e's across the board from me.-

Yes, and Rob could never have thrown it to you either.
-So either we ignore the rules for a bit, say, 20 ndays, or we CFJ the Admin 
for acknowledging illegal activities, or we all deny all knowledge and walk 
away from the scene of the crime nonchalantly.-

 > "Geek Patrol: Helping make ordinary people's lives slightly more 
surreal."

Somehow, I don't think we need it.
-You're probably right, but it never hurts to try.-

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
     - Will Rogers

"Geek Patrol: Helping make ordinary people's lives slightly more surreal."

                        -Jon Rosenberg

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 00:23:51 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/10/02 at 8:37 PM Wonko wrote:

>I make the following CFJ, with no defendant:
>
>{{
>Statement:
>The Witch Gremlin is in Rob's possession.
>Analysis:
>He wasn't close enough to throw it at the Baron, and none of the later
>throws happened because it was never thrown to the Baron in the first
>place.
>}}
>
>--Wonko

Does this mean Rob is burned by now?

BEANFEST!

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 00:32:34 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 12:23 AM 2002-03-11 -0500, you wrote:
>BEANFEST!

*looks very startled/confused*  Huh?  What?  Beanfest?  What do I gotta do 
now.....

Bean

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 00:40:20 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 12:32 AM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>At 12:23 AM 2002-03-11 -0500, you wrote:
>>BEANFEST!
>
>*looks very startled/confused*  Huh?  What?  Beanfest?  What do I gotta do=
 
>now.....
>
>Bean

Just grab all the gremlins you can and bean Rob with them.  Simple, really.

							Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:25:35 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Monday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Further review of the list reveals that I did, in fact, overlook a couple
> of Glotmorf's proposals: "Continued Next Nweek..." is 457/0, and eir
> second Nomilogue is 458/0. (Aside: First, I don't think the rules require
> me to recognize things in the order they're received, and second, I'll
> veto anything that requires me to do so. I am human, y'see, and have no
> real desire to spend a half-hour or more renumbering things every time I
> make a mistake. If you're worried about the PIG, buy him off.)
>
Rule 17: "All recognitions and refusals of recognition must happen in the same chronological order as the Actions they respond to arrived in a Public Forum."

Based on the precedent set by CFJ 280, I'd say that everything since the admin missed "Continued Next Nweek..." never happened. I'd CFJ this, but I can't. ;-) (Not that it would matter anyway, as CFJs don't appear to do anything).

Therefore, I hereby recognise an Emergency. I fully expect to be the only person to do so, but nonetheless... anyway, my recognition can always still be there in the future.

uin.
-- 

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:26:29 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I'd written a lovely interpretation of Uncle Psychosis' various "3 points"
> actions, but since it's CFJd now, the whole thing is moot. CFJ 444,
> assigned to Congenital Optimist.
>
Umm... was any interpretation (or, indeed, the CFJ) necessary? I mean, I may be missing something, but I was pretty sure my "I take 3 points" thing just failed, and that even if it didn't, it hadn't been recognised, so it failed that way.

uin.
-- 

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:22:01 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Monday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 8:25 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

>> Further review of the list reveals that I did, in fact, overlook a
>couple
>> of Glotmorf's proposals: "Continued Next Nweek..." is 457/0, and eir
>> second Nomilogue is 458/0. (Aside: First, I don't think the rules=
 require
>> me to recognize things in the order they're received, and second, I'll
>> veto anything that requires me to do so. I am human, y'see, and have no
>> real desire to spend a half-hour or more renumbering things every time I
>> make a mistake. If you're worried about the PIG, buy him off.)
>>
>Rule 17: "All recognitions and refusals of recognition must happen in the
>same chronological order as the Actions they respond to arrived in a
>Public Forum."
>
>Based on the precedent set by CFJ 280, I'd say that everything since the
>admin missed "Continued Next Nweek..." never happened. I'd CFJ this, but I
>can't. ;-) (Not that it would matter anyway, as CFJs don't appear to do
>anything).
>
>Therefore, I hereby recognise an Emergency. I fully expect to be the only
>person to do so, but nonetheless... anyway, my recognition can always
>still be there in the future.
>
>uin.

Not prepared to recognize an Emergency yet, but thank you for your concern.=
 :)  As for CFJing...it would be less work for me to CFJ if and only if the=
 PIG eats my proposal, since I might not have to do it (though some other=
 poor slob might).  Of course, if I CFJ the PIG's ingestion, the remedy for=
 that would probably be to renumber the proposals, reword the nweek=
 results, update the rules that had been modified by the now-renumbered=
 proposals AND recalculate what proposal the PIG ate, backing out any rule=
 changes the now-ingested proposal caused.

Which sounds to me like more work for Mr. A than renumbering the proposals=
 now would be.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:58:08 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal Overhaul
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/10/02 at 12:03 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Donald Whytock,
>
>> On 3/9/02 at 5:51 PM Wonko wrote:
>> 
>>> I replace proposal 432 with the following:
>>> {{
>>> __Literary Criticism__
>>> 
>>> Replace the last sentence of rule 438 with the following:
>>> " When a player votes on a proposal which is in Prose Form, e may also
>give
>>> that proposal a rating, which is an integer between 0 and 15. If e does
>>> not,
>>> e is assumed to have given that proposal a rating of 7. If a proposal=
 in
>>> Prose Form passes, its proponent recieves a number of points equal to
>the
>>> average of all ratings given to that proposal by players other than the
>>> proponent."
>>> }}
>>> 
>>> Rationale: The way it's worded right now, I could argue that I should
>get
>>> ten points for including [[The man said,]] at the beginning of each of
>my
>>> proposals. This way, I could do that, but everyone would rate it 0.
>>> 
>>> --Wonko
>> 
>> You can object if you want, but with 129/3 now in effect, all you're
>doing is
>> voicing your opinion.
>Oh. Well, whatever.
>> Regarding the Prose Form change: I gather you didn't want to try to nail
>down
>> a definition of story or narrative?
>
>Can you come up with a good way to do it?
>
>-- 
>Wonko

How about 0 to 20 rather than 0 to 15, so that the default average is the=
 original 10? Or do you feel 10 is too high for an average story?

Alternately, rather than a rating, one could add "Prose" as a keyword to=
 anything one would want judged as Prose Form, and Players could add to=
 their vote whether they think the proposal actually qualifies as Prose.=
  Default would be "yes".

"Narrative" is most cleanly defined through its root word, "narrate": "to=
 relate or recount events, experiences, etc. in speech or writing;" a=
 narrative is therefore such a recounting or relating.  "Story," on the=
 other hand, has twelve defs in my big unabridged, including two verb=
 forms, and that's not even counting the architectural ones.  The one I'd=
 most likely go with in this case is the first definition: "a narrative,=
 either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse,=
 or instruct the hearer or reader; a tale."

By that definition, "It was dark.  He said," wouldn't qualify as a story,=
 since, in actual use, it doesn't interest, amuse or instruct me. (The=
 email mentioning you were gonna do that did, but you don't get points for=
 that. :)  It would qualify as a narrative, though, since there's nothing=
 in any definition of "narrative" that says it has to be interesting.

Since the definition of "story" includes "narrative", perhaps it's=
 redundant to have "narrative" in the rule to begin with.  I'd originally=
 thought of various things that people wouldn't ordinarily consider stories=
 -- scientific experiment logs, transcripts of conversations, alliterative=
 interpretations of John Cage musical scores -- but if a story is a=
 narrative, then these things all just become alternative story forms.  So=
 if a story is a narrative, I'd guess a subjective evaluation of whether=
 it's interesting, amusing and/or instructive is the way to go.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:16:27 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Anthologies
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/10/02 at 12:03 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Donald Whytock,
>> 
>> Okay, but what if it was, like, three Limericks?  Would that still be an
>> Anthology of Limericks?
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> 
>The way it's written right now, you'd get 4 points for using limericks,
>plus
>three points for having more than one of them.
>
>--Wonko

{{ _sample proposal, not to be confused with something I'd actually submit_

[[

"There was an old man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
But his daughter named Nan
Ran away with a man,
And as for the bucket, Nantucket.

"But he followed the three to Pawtucket --
The man and the girl and the bucket --
And he said to the man,
'You can marry young Nan.'
But as for the bucket, Pawtucket."

So you see, my young friend from Yakutsk,
If on points ya wants ta get yer hooks'k,
Just like Paw in the tale,

]]

{{ _Points are Kept in a Pail_

If ya wants someone's points, then ya tooks'k.

}}

}}

Sheer stupidity of the third stanza notwithstanding, here we have an=
 example of three Limericks at 4 points each, 3 more points for the=
 Anthology bonus, and 10 points for it being a story.

Not like I'd actually submit the above.  Propose that Players can steal=
 each other's points?  Guess what spoon-business would be bursting at the=
 seams with.

						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:56:20 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
    (Monday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Not prepared to recognize an Emergency yet,
> but thank you for your concern. :)  As for
> CFJing...it would be less work for me to CFJ
> if and only if the PIG eats my proposal, since
> I might not have to do it (though some other
> poor slob might).  Of course, if I CFJ the
> PIG's ingestion, the remedy for that would
> probably be to renumber the proposals,
> reword the nweek results, update the rules
> that had been modified by the now-renumbered
> proposals AND recalculate what proposal the
> PIG ate, backing out any rule changes the
> now-ingested proposal caused.
>
> Which sounds to me like more work for Mr. A
> than renumbering the proposals now would be.
>
The problem is that, since things have to be recognised / ignored in the order they were sent to the list, none of the admin's recognitions since he missed those proosals (the ones incorrectly numbered as 457 and 458) are valid. And that means that no actions taken by any players since then are valid. They won't be until he not only renumbers them, but also goes back and recognises them all after having recognised 457 and 458 with their correct numbers. And this has to be done every time he makes a mistake. I think he'll also have to recognise and ignore (respectively) my point giving and taking, and redo everything since then, since he only recognised the CFJ, not the point transfers it referred to.

uin.
-- 

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:12:12 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Monday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 12:56 PM Gavin Doig wrote:

>The problem is that, since things have to be recognised / ignored in the
>order they were sent to the list, none of the admin's recognitions since
>he missed those proosals (the ones incorrectly numbered as 457 and 458)
>are valid. And that means that no actions taken by any players since then
>are valid. They won't be until he not only renumbers them, but also goes
>back and recognises them all after having recognised 457 and 458 with
>their correct numbers. And this has to be done every time he makes a
>mistake. I think he'll also have to recognise and ignore (respectively) my
>point giving and taking, and redo everything since then, since he only
>recognised the CFJ, not the point transfers it referred to.
>
>uin.

Aren't you the one that's been arguing that the game state is independent=
 of whatever Mr. A says?  So, yes, he had to recognize them in order, but=
 nevertheless they existed in the proper order whether he recognized them=
 or not.

The implication, though, of your argument is that he'd have to essentially=
 compose a massive version of the Daily Recognizer to re-recognize=
 everything in proper sequence since the time my proposals appeared on=
 spoon-business.

But the proposals themselves should be there.  So I should, in a few hours,=
 theoretically be able to cast my vote on, say, the _Serialized Forms_=
 proposal, the _Ice Gremlin_ proposal, etc., regardless of what their=
 actual numbers are.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:20:19 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: Scarf
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/7/02 at 8:40 AM Daniel Lepage wrote:

>Why not just leave it as it is? Right now, yes,
>there's always the possibility that two people will
>monopolize the scarf, but if that happens somebody
>else could simply *propose* to move it to a different
>player (and the two monopolizers probably wouldn't get
>it back for a long time).
>
>--Wonko

I don't like to use the F-word.  I really don't like to use the F-word in a=
 game context, especially in a Nomic game where players are constantly=
 trying to subtly gain advantage over one another.  But now I feel=
 compelled to use the F-word when I say that the Scarf might not circulate=
 amongst Players who have a particularly unique style that's hard to=
 appreciate except when one is obliged to seriously consider it; and=
 therefore, were it necessary to circulate the Scarf among a minimum number=
 of Players before it could be re-issued to a given Player...

...Then it would be Fair.

But I can see that the Scarf element alone is going to cause the entire=
 proposal to not gain sufficient support, so I'll do a last-minute overhaul=
 of it, establishing a framework that can be built on later.

						Glotmorf

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:27:42 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
    (Monday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Aren't you the one that's been arguing that the
> game state is independent of whatever Mr. A
> says?  So, yes, he had to recognize them in
> order, but nevertheless they existed in the
> proper order whether he recognized them or
> not.
>
Yes, I was arguing that. I was, however, careful to point out that this does not apply where the rules specifically state that the admin needs to recognise things before they happen. Thanks to Wonko's revision of r17, "Actions cannot occur unless they are recognized by the Administrator". So no, they don't exist unless he recognises them (which has always been the case for proosals).

> The implication, though, of your argument is
> that he'd have to essentially compose a
> massive version of the Daily Recognizer to
> re-recognize everything in proper sequence
> since the time my proposals appeared on
> spoon-business.
>
Yes.

> But the proposals themselves should be there. 
> So I should, in a few hours, theoretically be able
> to cast my vote on, say, the _Serialized
> Forms_ proposal, the _Ice Gremlin_ proposal,
> etc., regardless of what their actual numbers are.
>
They've never been recognised, so they never existed. I'd proose something to fix this (like going back to the original version of r17), but... well, you see where I'm going. ;-)

uin.
-- 

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:42:31 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Monday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 1:27 PM Gavin Doig wrote:

>> Aren't you the one that's been arguing that the
>> game state is independent of whatever Mr. A
>> says?  So, yes, he had to recognize them in
>> order, but nevertheless they existed in the
>> proper order whether he recognized them or
>> not.
>>
>Yes, I was arguing that. I was, however, careful to point out that this
>does not apply where the rules specifically state that the admin needs to
>recognise things before they happen. Thanks to Wonko's revision of r17,
>"Actions cannot occur unless they are recognized by the Administrator". So
>no, they don't exist unless he recognises them (which has always been the
>case for proosals).

Damn.  So if someone actually went and CFJ'd that my earlier proposals had=
 to be recognized first, it'd pretty much blow everything after that off=
 the ballot.  Hell, not even the ballot...every spoon-business action since=
 then, except for the two CFJs Mr. A recognized after recognizing my=
 proposals.

Tempting.  Very tempting.  Though with scant hours available before ballot=
 time, that would probably piss off rather a lot of people...

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:23:02 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 1:55 PM Gavin Doig wrote:

><CFJ>
><statement>
>This statement does not appear in any recognised CFJ.
></statement>
><analysis>
>Per rule 17, "Actions cannot occur unless they are recognized by the
>Administrator", and also "All recognitions and refusals of recognition
>must happen in the same chronological order as the Actions they respond to
>arrived in a Public Forum".
>
>The admin failed to recognise (at least) the proosals incorrectly numbered
>457 and 480 in the correct chronological order. Therefore, by the
>precedent established by, and the same logic as applied in, CFJ 280, no
>player actions have been recognised since then, and thus no player actions
>have taken place since then.
>
>Since this CFJ can only exist as such if it has been recognised by the
>Admin, and it can't be, it does not exist.
>
>[[I believe that if the admin were to issue "a massive version of the
>Daily Recognizer to re-recognize everything in proper sequence" then this
>problem would go away. Well, until the next time...]]
></analysis>
><defendant>
>Baron von Skippy.
></defendant>
></CFJ>
>
>uin,
>for the Reform Rule 17 Committee.

I dunno, guy...I see it this way:

S1: body of actions and proposals that occurred prior to my unrecognized=
 proposals
S2: my unrecognized proposals
S3: body of actions and proposals submitted between the posting of S2 and=
 their belated recognition
S4: body of actions and proposals that occurred after the belated=
 recognition of S2
S5: body of actions and proposals submitted after S4

For simplicity's sake, let's say that S1 has officially occurred.

S2 wasn't recognized, but S3 was.  After S2 was recognized, S4 was=
 recognized too.

Rule 17 seems to say that since S2 wasn't recognized, S3 couldn't be=
 recognized, and therefore S3 didn't officially occur.

Then S2 was recognized.  They were given proposal numbers and everything,=
 and so they officially occurred.

Then S4 was recognized.  But the same logic that said S3 couldn't be=
 recognized before S2 now says S4 can't be recognized before S3.  So S4=
 hasn't been recognized either.  Which means S5 can't be recognized unless=
 and until S3 and S4 are recognized.

And since this CFJ is part of S5, this CFJ hasn't officially occurred,=
 since it can't be recognized as a CFJ before S3 and S4 (and everything=
 else in S5) is recognized.  Which means this CFJ can't officially be=
 assigned or ruled on until the Administrator re-recognizes S3 and S4, then=
 recognizes S5.

At which point, once this CFJ has been recognized, it'll be false.

At least, that's what my opinion would be regarding this CFJ, should it=
 have actually occurred.

Though I do have to wonder...Why list the Baron as defendant?

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:37:03 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Rule-numbering as a demigodlike power
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 12:56 PM Gavin Doig wrote:

>The problem is that, since things have to be recognised / ignored in the
>order they were sent to the list, none of the admin's recognitions since
>he missed those proosals (the ones incorrectly numbered as 457 and 458)
>are valid. And that means that no actions taken by any players since then
>are valid. They won't be until he not only renumbers them, but also goes
>back and recognises them all after having recognised 457 and 458 with
>their correct numbers. And this has to be done every time he makes a
>mistake. I think he'll also have to recognise and ignore (respectively) my
>point giving and taking, and redo everything since then, since he only
>recognised the CFJ, not the point transfers it referred to.
>
>uin.

Okay...I looked over the rules, and, as much as I hate to say it, I can't=
 find anything that says identification numbers have to be consecutive=
 integers.  They just have to be unique.  In theory, then, the=
 Administrator could assign a totally random number from 1 to a gogol to=
 each newly recognized object, as long as he didn't re-use any of them.  So=
 he is not obligated to renumber the proposals, and therefore my two=
 proposals are not numbered incorrectly.

What's more, there's nothing that requires him to number rules sequentially=
 either.

So all this means the Administrator currently has the power to determine=
 what order proposals' votes are evaluated in, meaning if one proposal=
 might prevent another from happening it could be engineered to work that=
 way; it also means he can determine rule precedence by assigning arbitrary=
 numbers to rules.

It also means he can determine which proposal gets et by the PIG.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:22:49 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/12/02 at 12:01 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Proposal 463/0: Piddling on the Fire of the Gods (Uncle Psychosis)

That's mine, rather than Uncle Psy's. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:33:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Donald Whytock wrote:

> >Proposal 463/0: Piddling on the Fire of the Gods (Uncle Psychosis)

Indeed it is. Mea culpa. Fixed.

...dave

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:44:32 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Join
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/12/02 at 12:37 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>In fact the whole alphabetization scheme is shot. (I suspect it's
>alphabetizing by the /0 versions of rules instead of the current versions.
>I'll try to fix it soonish. Also, if the "more chutzpah" proposal passes,
>I'll have to whip up a page listing rules in order of Chutzpah anyway, so
>I will queue up all these revisions and do 'em wholesale.)

You know...you could just have a single page of rules in numeric order, and=
 two pages of just links -- one of alphabetical rule titles, and one of=
 rule titles by chutzpah and rule number.  That way you don't have to=
 reorder the rules themselves.

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Join 
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:05:38 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Jonathan David Amery wrote: 
> >  I announce my intent to Join the Game.
> >  My Name (delimited by the quotes `') is `Wild Card'.
> And you picked a helluva time to join! Welcome! (Shame you can't vote this
> week; my travesty of logic that is 461/1 needs all the help it can get,
> and you just might be impressionable. :)

 <grins>

 Oh, I've produced (entirely for my own use, but...) a ps.gz file of
the rules - it's arranged for printing 4-up on A4 and producing into
booklets.  It's at http://www.ysolde.ucam.org/~jdamery/bnomic-nd8nw9.ps.gz

 Wild Card.

(PS - I haven't actually printed this off yet entirely - I'll try that
 in the morning :))

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Monday morning)
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:29:32 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Wonko revises lotsa proposals with the Curt and Rod fix: 431/1, 432/1,
433/2, 434/1, 448/1, 451/1, 452/1, 453/1.  Thanks for making my morning a
lot less fun. (I'm taking a little liberty with your request, which I'll
gladly not do if you like: I didn't apply this change to the Respect
declaration, or to your Haiku, because this change would break each of
their special qualities.)

Wonko then renovates 432 with "Literary Criticism" (432/2).

I'd already fixed that "Thermodynomics" thing. Coulda swore I mentioned
that about a week ago.

Wonko annoys me more by adding lame verbiage to the beginning of all of
eir proposals: 431/2, 432/3, 433/3, 434/2, 448/2, 451/2, 452/2, 453/2.
(Again, same liberty taken.)

-...Wonko deletes all articles in rules 0/0 through the end of the 
ruleset... ...Wonko eliminates all adjectives in all odd-numbered rules... 
...Wonko replaces the text of Rule 10 with "Dear Mary, I long for you 
tragically. A. T. Tappman, Chaplain, U.S. Army."... ...BvS reads Catch-22 
for school until it pours out of his ears...-

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:40:07 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

<defendant>
Baron von Skippy.
</defendant>

-Whoa. I got everything you said up until that bit, even if I didn't 
necessarily agree with it, but, well, I'll put it simply. What did /I/ do? I 
didn't propose, I don't think, either of those rules, and I had nothing to 
do with the CFJ (280) in question. Can you please explain to me what's going 
on? Can someone else also explain to me what's going on?-

                                      -A confused and annoyed BvS-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:19:36 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 09:40 PM 2002-03-11 -0500, you wrote:
>Can you please explain to me what's going on? Can someone else also 
>explain to me what's going on?-

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd blame it on a very odd sense of 
humour.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Bean

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:33:03 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 9:40 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

><defendant>
>Baron von Skippy.
></defendant>
>
>-Whoa. I got everything you said up until that bit, even if I didn't 
>necessarily agree with it, but, well, I'll put it simply. What did /I/ do?
>I 
>didn't propose, I don't think, either of those rules, and I had nothing to=
 
>do with the CFJ (280) in question. Can you please explain to me what's
>going 
>on? Can someone else also explain to me what's going on?-
>
>                                      -A confused and annoyed BvS-

Personally I'd'a named Mr. A...but then, I was prepared to CFJ the PIG's=
 diet rather than go straight for the paradox...:)

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 05:30:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:

> <defendant>
> Baron von Skippy.
> </defendant>
>
> -Whoa. I got everything you said up until that bit, even if I didn't
> necessarily agree with it, but, well, I'll put it simply. What did /I/ do? I
> didn't propose, I don't think, either of those rules, and I had nothing to
> do with the CFJ (280) in question. Can you please explain to me what's going
> on? Can someone else also explain to me what's going on?-

IIRC, in one of your previous rulings, your conclusion was basically "the
rules say one thing, but the game is more fun if we ignore that." By
naming you as defendant, you're ineligible to judge the present CFJ.

I suspect the plaintiff is engaging in a very limited form of
bench-stacking.

Pure speculation on my part, though.

...dave

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:57:33 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Cleaning Up My Own Damn Mess
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/11/02 at 11:28 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>The following is my one proposal for this nweek, and hopefully it'll take
>care of all the problems I've created lately.
>
>{{ __Cleaning Up My Own Damn Mess
>
>Nullify Rule 204 [[ Thou Shalt Not Screw With Time]]. Though the rule
>shall still exist, it shall have no effect until reinstated.
>
>Nullify Rule 261 [[ The PIG ]]. Though the rule shall still exist, it
>shall have no effect until reinstated.
>
>Rewrite history so that the identification numbers of all Rules,
>Proposals, and CFJs are, in fact, as they appear on the B Nomic Web site.
>[[ That cleans up the whole serial number mess. ]]

The serial number mess was at least partially my imagination; the rules=
 don't require serial numbers be in any particular form, order or pattern=
 at all (though I'd draw the line at base-52 Hebrew if I were you).  The=
 other part involves "game custom", "the usual methods" and another=
 invocation of the F-word, in that the identification numbers had been=
 sequential integers for almost all of the other proposals and rules, and=
 therefore, if my proposals were going to be in an unexpected and=
 vulnerable sequencing through no fault of my own...

...Then it wouldn't be Fair.

But I'll live.  Besides, speaking out of pure self-centeredness, it looks=
 like Wonko's Ice Gnome's the one to get et.

>Add the phrase ", assigned by the Administrator." to the end of the first
>sentence of Rule 5.
>
>Add the sentence "Identification numbers shall be assigned in ascending
>integral order." to the end of the first paragraph of Rule 5.

What if, in a proposal creating a rule, it is said that the rule being=
 created should get such-and-such an identifying number?  Does a proposal=
 take precedence over a rule?  I'd like to see an exception to this built=
 in.

>Remove the last sentence of the first paragraph of Rule 17.
>
>Add the sentences "Though the Administrator shall strive to make all
>recognitions and refusals thereof in chronological order, e is not bound
>to do so. Recognitions may only occur in Public Fora." to the end of the
>first paragraph of Rule 17. [[ This permits me to be human. I'm a big fan
>of that. ]]

There's a reason for r17 being written the way it is: If Action A can=
 affect Action B, but Action A isn't recognized before Action B, then the=
 fact that Action B couldn't be legally recognized makes the game state=
 retrofit a bit more legitimate (if not less painful).

There's a simpler solution below.

>If the Proposal Ingesting Gremlin consumed any proposals in the last
>three ndays, that proposal shall be reinstated as though the PIG were
>in Hiding at the time it ate said proposal.
>
>Replace the text of Rule 10 with the following:
>
>{{
>
>All game entities and the Administrator must abide by all the Rules in
>effect, in the form in which they are in effect. No Proposal may attempt
>to temporarily circumvent the Rules. No Game Action may circumvent or
>repress the Rules at any time. This Rule shall always take precedence over
>all other Rules. No Proposal may modify this Rule unless said Proposal
>receives a 2/3 or greater plurality of affirmative votes.
>
>}}
>
>[[ When the above is created, the temporary suppression of Rules 204 and
>261 shall immediately cease, as it becomes illegal. Also, makes it a bit
>harder to try sneaky stuff like what I'm doing above. ]]

"modify or take precedence over" might be better.  After all, there might=
 be some circumstance short of an r0-grade Emergency that requires it.

>Give ten points to Glotmorf. Give The Administrator the Title "Glotmorf's
>Personal Bitch" for a duration of one nday.

I appreciate the gesture, but my swing only goes in one direction. :)

>}}
>
>Recognized as 461/0.

See...you still can't do that because all the stuff you recognized before=
 belatedly recognizing my stuff was unrecognized, and has to be=
 re-recognized before anything new can be recognized.

May I suggest you post the following to spoon-business?

"I hereby re-recognize anything mistakenly recognized previously, in the=
 order it appeared on spoon-business, using the same serial numbers=
 originally assigned."

I think that'll do it. :)  We can work out the rest later.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:47:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

out of clueless-newbie-interest what is the proceedure
for voting?

naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

__________________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:22:19 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> At which point, once this CFJ has been recognized, it'll be false.
>
I'm aware of that. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

uin.
-- 

_______________________________________________
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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:24:36 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Cleaning Up My Own Damn Mess
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> May I suggest you post the following to spoon-business?
>
> "I hereby re-recognize anything mistakenly recognized
> previously, in the order it appeared on spoon-business,
> using the same serial numbers originally assigned."
>
> I think that'll do it. :)  We can work out the rest later.
>
I'm not sure that will work; if there's something which has gone unrecognised (my 3-point transfers, for example - I think the taking one has to be explicitly refused, and the giving one has never been recognised either) then everything after them will still fail.

uin.
-- 

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From: "Jonathan Van Matre" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:08:53 -0600
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

yarrgh.  curses.  this will teach me to pay more attention to the clock.  o=
h well, no oscars pool i guess.  i'll do the bookie gremlin anyway next wee=
k.  *sigh*

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David E. Smith [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:01 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
>=20
>=20
> Proposal 429/2: Izing on the Cake (Glotmorf)
> Proposal 431/2: Blip... Blip... (Wonko)
> Proposal 432/3: Literary Criticism (Wonko)
> Proposal 433/3: They're Everywhere! Part 2 (Wonko)
> Proposal 434/2: Run, Run, As Fast As You Can! v2.0 (Wonko)
> Proposal 435/0: Roller Gremlin (The Voice)
> Proposal 445/0: You're STILL a Blowhard! (The Voice)
> Proposal 446/0: Ohh, one of those "funky" windows... (The Voice)
> Proposal 448/2: Respect doesn't pay (Wonko)
> Proposal 449/0: A little Wiggle room (Wonko)
> Proposal 451/2: A Chilly Prospect (Wonko)
> Proposal 452/2: Burn, baby, Burn! (Wonko)
> Proposal 453/2: Anthologies (Wonko)
> Proposal 454/0: Earth (Congenital Optimist)
> Proposal 455/1: Like a fridge. (Uncle Psychosis)
> Proposal 456/0: Respect (Wonko)
> Proposal 457/1: Continued Next Nweek... (Glotmorf)
> Proposal 458/0: How Far Will a Good Name and a Pretty Face Take You?
>                 (Glotmorf)
> Proposal 461/1: Cleaning Up My Own Damn Mess (The Administrator)
> Proposal 463/0: Piddling on the Fire of the Gods (Uncle Psychosis)
>=20
> Remember, if you vote for 461, all your problems go away.=20
> Plus your whites
> will be whiter and your brights will be brighter.
>=20
> ..dave
>=20
>=20
> ---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
> http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
> http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/
>=20
> "There is so much randomness in the world that it's
> a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM
>=20
>=20
>=20

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:10:36 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/12/02 at 9:47 AM Naath Thabana wrote:

>out of clueless-newbie-interest what is the proceedure
>for voting?
>
>naath

An email sent to the business forum ([email-masked]) containing a=
 Yes, No or Abstain for each proposal on the ballot.  Typically people have=
 been responding to the ballot, inserting their votes between the proposal=
 names, and directing the response to spoon-business.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:32:30 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Cleaning Up My Own
  Damn Mess
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/12/02 at 8:24 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

>> May I suggest you post the following to spoon-business?
>>
>> "I hereby re-recognize anything mistakenly recognized
>> previously, in the order it appeared on spoon-business,
>> using the same serial numbers originally assigned."
>>
>> I think that'll do it. :)  We can work out the rest later.
>>
>I'm not sure that will work; if there's something which has gone
>unrecognised (my 3-point transfers, for example - I think the taking one
>has to be explicitly refused, and the giving one has never been recognised
>either) then everything after them will still fail.
>
>uin.

Then those things that went unrecognized can be recognized now, or denied=
 recognition, and the posting I suggested can be repeated.  If there's been=
 an avalanche through the cracks it might get tedious to see all the posts,=
 but it should still work.

Just think of it as nompoo: blather, rinse, repeat.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:52:39 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Anthologies
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> On 3/10/02 at 12:03 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Donald Whytock,
>>> 
>>> Okay, but what if it was, like, three Limericks?  Would that still be an
>>> Anthology of Limericks?
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>>> 
>>> 
>> The way it's written right now, you'd get 4 points for using limericks,
>> plus
>> three points for having more than one of them.
>> 
>> --Wonko
> 
> {{ _sample proposal, not to be confused with something I'd actually submit_
> 
> [[
> 
> "There was an old man from Nantucket
> Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
> But his daughter named Nan
> Ran away with a man,
> And as for the bucket, Nantucket.
> 
> "But he followed the three to Pawtucket --
> The man and the girl and the bucket --
> And he said to the man,
> 'You can marry young Nan.'
> But as for the bucket, Pawtucket."
> 
> So you see, my young friend from Yakutsk,
> If on points ya wants ta get yer hooks'k,
> Just like Paw in the tale,
> 
> ]]
> 
> {{ _Points are Kept in a Pail_
> 
> If ya wants someone's points, then ya tooks'k.
> 
> }}
> 
> }}
> 
> Sheer stupidity of the third stanza notwithstanding, here we have an example
> of three Limericks at 4 points each, 3 more points for the Anthology bonus,
> and 10 points for it being a story.
> 
> Not like I'd actually submit the above.  Propose that Players can steal each
> other's points?  Guess what spoon-business would be bursting at the seams
> with.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
No, you'd get four points for using Limericks, and 3 points for having
multiple stanzas, and whatever the literary criticism gives you(if that
passes) for being a story.

Each Limerick is not worth 4 points; the use of any Limericks anywhere is
worth 4 points, regardless of the quantity.

--Wonko

"Attention to health is lifes greatest hindrance. "
    - Plato

"Plato was a bore. "
    - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal. "
    - Leo Tolstoy

"I'm not going to get into the ring with Tolstoy. "
    - Ernest Hemingway

"Hemingway was a jerk. "
    - Harold Robbins

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:53:52 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Identification Numbers
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> After careful examination of the rules, particularly r5, it appears that there
> is nothing that explicitly states the Administrator assigns identification
> numbers to objects.  He does indeed assign serial numbers, but a serial number
> is a combination of identification number and revision number; presumably the
> identification-number part of the serial numbers he has assigned he was
> obliged to create in order to give the objects unique serial numbers.
> 
> There is also nothing that says identification numbers have to be integers.
> 
> Therefore I declare that the identification number for this new proposal is
> 431.1, which should result in it being assigned serial number 431.1/0.
> 
> {{ _Piddling on the Fire of the Gods_
> 
> Append to the end of Rule 5 the following text:
> 
> Proposals, Rules and other objects requiring serial numbers, unless specified
> by the entities that create them, are assigned unique identification numbers
> that consist of the smallest integer that is larger than the largest
> identification number in use at the time of the object's creation.
> Identification numbers for Calls for Judgment cannot be specified by the
> Players creating them.
> 
> }}
> 
> 

Seems to me that while the Admin is explicitly empowered to assign serial
numbers, you are not, so doing it yerself is an illegal mod of the game
state.

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:01:01 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal:
  Identification Numbers
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/12/02 at 5:53 PM Wonko wrote:

>Seems to me that while the Admin is explicitly empowered to assign serial
>numbers, you are not, so doing it yerself is an illegal mod of the game
>state.
>
>
>--Wonko

I'm not assigning the serial number...just the identification number.  It's=
 the Administrator's job to pair up the identification number with a=
 revision number to make a serial number.

I never said that the serial number *will* be 431.1/0...just that it=
 *should* be, given that identification number and a revision number of=
 zero.  It was a prediction, not a directive.

For that matter, since actions don't happen until they're recognized by the=
 Administrator, I'm not changing the game state by putting an=
 identification number in a proposal.  The Administrator is by recognizing=
 my proposal with the identification number I specified.

Which, I am obliged to note, he didn't do. :)  Perhaps a provision for=
 "virtual identification numbers" is in order.

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Quiet?
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:13:00 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 It's gone quiet - I haven't been dropped off the list or something have I?

 Wild Card...

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:00:46 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Move
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 06:34 PM 2002-03-13 -0500, you wrote:

>I run to (10,13) and Tackle Bean.  Let's see if this works.

Uh... are you sure about that???  (10,13) puts you farther from me than you 
are.... and there's *no* way you can tackle me from there.... uh.... nor 
can you even get to (10,13)... nor (13,10), if that's what you meant.... 
(recall:  Football running is done with a Cartesian metric).

Bean

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:28:00 -0500
From: "Donald Whytock" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Quiet?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/13/02 at 9:13 PM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>It's gone quiet - I haven't been dropped off the list or something have I?
>
> Wild Card...

Nope.  It's just voting time, so there aren't as many proposals being=
 submitted, and it's a bit late for arguments on existing ones.

Also, I don't know about everyone else, but I at least tend to wait until=
 I've seen a few other people's votes before I commit my own.  Though if=
 everyone is voting by email, that's not going to work...

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Move
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:18:30 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Move
>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:00:46 -0500
>
>At 06:34 PM 2002-03-13 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>I run to (10,13) and Tackle Bean.  Let's see if this works.
>
>Uh... are you sure about that???  (10,13) puts you farther from me than you
>are.... and there's *no* way you can tackle me from there.... uh.... nor
>can you even get to (10,13)... nor (13,10), if that's what you meant....
>(recall:  Football running is done with a Cartesian metric).
>
>Bean
>
Did you move and did I miss it?

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
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2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:09:39 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/14/02 at 1:41 AM Rob Speer wrote:

>NUH-UH > Proposal 457/1: Continued Next Nweek... (Glotmorf)
>[[ Pur slf-ntrust, bcuz dun't hv tm tu wrut tuns uf stuff. ]]

But aren't you at all curious how long someone can make a series last? :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:33:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 --- "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]> wrote: >
Proposal 429/2: Izing on the Cake (Glotmorf)
no
> Proposal 431/2: Blip... Blip... (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 432/3: Literary Criticism (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 433/3: They're Everywhere! Part 2 (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 434/2: Run, Run, As Fast As You Can! v2.0
> (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 435/0: Roller Gremlin (The Voice)
yes
> Proposal 445/0: You're STILL a Blowhard! (The Voice)
yes
> Proposal 446/0: Ohh, one of those "funky" windows...
> (The Voice)
yes
> Proposal 448/2: Respect doesn't pay (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 449/0: A little Wiggle room (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 451/2: A Chilly Prospect (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 452/2: Burn, baby, Burn! (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 453/2: Anthologies (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 454/0: Earth (Congenital Optimist)
yes
> Proposal 455/1: Like a fridge. (Uncle Psychosis)
yes
> Proposal 456/0: Respect (Wonko)
no
> Proposal 457/1: Continued Next Nweek... (Glotmorf)
yes
> Proposal 458/0: How Far Will a Good Name and a
> Pretty Face Take You?
>                 (Glotmorf)
yes
> Proposal 461/1: Cleaning Up My Own Damn Mess (The
> Administrator)
yes
> Proposal 463/0: Piddling on the Fire of the Gods
> (Uncle Psychosis)
yes

Naath
who objects to the phrase "It was dark. The man said"

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:06:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Move
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Tyler Crosby wrote:
> >From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
> >Reply-To: [email-masked]
> >To: [email-masked]
> >Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Move
> >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:00:46 -0500
> >
> >At 06:34 PM 2002-03-13 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >>I run to (10,13) and Tackle Bean.  Let's see if this works.
> >
> >Uh... are you sure about that???  (10,13) puts you farther from me than you
> >are.... and there's *no* way you can tackle me from there.... uh.... nor
> >can you even get to (10,13)... nor (13,10), if that's what you meant....
> >(recall:  Football running is done with a Cartesian metric).
> >
> >Bean
> >
> Did you move and did I miss it?

No... it's just by my calculations....

The Grid page says you are at (11, 7).

Distance between (11, 7) and (10, 13)
 = ((11-10)^2 + (7-13)^2)^(1/2)
 = (1^2 + (-6)^2)^(1/2)
 = (1 + 36)^(1/2)
 ~= 6.0828 > 3

Therefore you can't run there.

Distance between (11, 7) and (13, 10) (in case that's what you meant)
 = ((11-13)^2 + (7-10)^2)^(1/2)
 = ((-2)^2 + (-3)^2)^(1/2)
 = (4 + 9)^(1/2)
 ~= 3.6056 > 3

Therefore you can't run there.

And in case you want to tacke me from where you stand:
Distance between (11,7) and (13,11):
 = ((11-13)^2 + (7-11)^2)^(1/2)
 = ((-2)^2 + (-3)^2)^(1/2)
 = (4 + 9)^(1/2)
 ~= 3.6056 > 2

Therefore you can't tackle me from where you stand.

Now, if there's something wrong with that logic.... someone let me
know.... but it seems solid from my POV.

Bean

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Gotta run!
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:11:36 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: spoon-business: Gotta run!
>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:20:03 -0500 (EST)
>
>Well, seeing as my adversaries are closing in and I don't want to punt...
>I'll run right past Wonko to (12, 13).
>
>Bean
>

Well, then, I'll change my previous non-run run to 11,10.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:22:09 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Naath Thabana,

> --- "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]> wrote: >
> Proposal 429/2: Izing on the Cake (Glotmorf)
> no
>> Proposal 431/2: Blip... Blip... (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 432/3: Literary Criticism (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 433/3: They're Everywhere! Part 2 (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 434/2: Run, Run, As Fast As You Can! v2.0
>> (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 435/0: Roller Gremlin (The Voice)
> yes
>> Proposal 445/0: You're STILL a Blowhard! (The Voice)
> yes
>> Proposal 446/0: Ohh, one of those "funky" windows...
>> (The Voice)
> yes
>> Proposal 448/2: Respect doesn't pay (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 449/0: A little Wiggle room (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 451/2: A Chilly Prospect (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 452/2: Burn, baby, Burn! (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 453/2: Anthologies (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 454/0: Earth (Congenital Optimist)
> yes
>> Proposal 455/1: Like a fridge. (Uncle Psychosis)
> yes
>> Proposal 456/0: Respect (Wonko)
> no
>> Proposal 457/1: Continued Next Nweek... (Glotmorf)
> yes
>> Proposal 458/0: How Far Will a Good Name and a
>> Pretty Face Take You?
>> (Glotmorf)
> yes
>> Proposal 461/1: Cleaning Up My Own Damn Mess (The
>> Administrator)
> yes
>> Proposal 463/0: Piddling on the Fire of the Gods
>> (Uncle Psychosis)
> yes
> 
> Naath
> who objects to the phrase "It was dark. The man said"
> 
> =====
> Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the
> universe together it does, hmm.
> 

I thought we decided that discuss didn't count as a means of contacting the
admin... Doesn't this need to go to Business?

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:24:58 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

>> Proposal 445/0: You're STILL a Blowhard! (The Voice)
> No.  If the Wind is ever not zero (which I would think would be most of the
> time), it would be impossible to hit someone in GremBall.  You could throw a
> Gremlin, and it might land in a Player's square, but that would not result in
> hitting the Player.  This might work if some provision was made for Gremlins
> landing in squares occupied by Players to possibly hit them, but not as is.

Actually, I think the way things are written now, the Gremlin would still be
said to have 'hit' the Player if e didn't catch it, even if it gets blown
off course.

--Wonko

"640K ought to be enough for anybody. "
    - Bill Gates (1955-), in 1981

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:31:33 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Gotta run!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> Well, seeing as my adversaries are closing in and I don't want to punt...
> I'll run right past Wonko to (12, 13).
> 
> Bean
> 
Past me? I think not. Quoth rule 301,

"Moves on the Grid happen at the end of the nweek and are processed in the
order in which they were announced. If a Player attempts to move into a unit
occupied by another Player, eir Move fails and e remains in eir current
location."

The move I made, to (13,11), will be proccessed before you move. Thus,
you'll still be at (13,11), meaning the move fails and I remain where I am.
Within sqrt(2) squares of you.

See you soon!

--Wonko

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Gotta run!
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:47:00 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>The move I made, to (13,11), will be proccessed before you move. Thus,
>you'll still be at (13,11), meaning the move fails and I remain where >I 
>am.  Within sqrt(2) squares of you.
>See you soon!
>--Wonko

Let's go Crimson!

...Even though Cornell is infinitely superior to Harvard.
"No we're not that cocky, and they can't play hockey."

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:48:26 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 9 results
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Wonko Runs to (13,11).
> Wonko's Radar is blipping at (12,9).

Neither of these should be happening - my move Fails as per the rule
entitled "The Grid." I didn't intend to do that, but it's cool that I did,
because that's why I'm close enough to Bean to Tackle him.

> I'm not yet ready to declare a state of Emergency, but there seems to be a
> minor paradox in the rules: Wonko wants to Tackle Bean, which requires em
> to occupy the same space as Bean. But Rule 301 explicitly forbids two
> players to occupy the same space on the Grid. I'll re-read the relevant
> rules a few more times and see if there's a legal way to resolve the
> paradox.

I think what happens is that everything involved with Tackling occurs except
my moving to his location - the Grid rule has a lower ID than the Football
rule, so it takes precedence.

--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Gotta run!
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:53:50 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>The move I made, to (13,11), will be proccessed before you move. Thus,
>you'll still be at (13,11), meaning the move fails and I remain where >I
>am.  Within sqrt(2) squares of you.
>See you soon!
>--Wonko

Let's go Crimson!

...Even though Cornell is infinitely superior to Harvard.
"No we're not that cocky, and they can't play hockey."
-*snicker* Ivy league football... "Fight fiercly, Harvard, fight, fight 
fight! Demonsrate to them our skill. Albeit they posess the might, 
nonetheless we have the will!"-

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

"Geek Patrol: Helping make ordinary people's lives slightly more surreal."

                        -Jon Rosenberg-

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 01:40:08 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Gotta run!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 05:31 PM 2002-03-14 -0500, you wrote:
>The move I made, to (13,11), will be proccessed before you move. Thus,
>you'll still be at (13,11), meaning the move fails and I remain where I am.
>Within sqrt(2) squares of you.
>
>See you soon!

Well shazbot.  There goes a perfectly good dodge.  Anyone care to join 
Turquoise to stop the Crimson onslaught?

Bean

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 01:46:59 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 9 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 02:19 AM 2002-03-15 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm not yet ready to declare a state of Emergency, but there seems to be a
>minor paradox in the rules: Wonko wants to Tackle Bean, which requires em
>to occupy the same space as Bean. But Rule 301 explicitly forbids two
>players to occupy the same space on the Grid. I'll re-read the relevant
>rules a few more times and see if there's a legal way to resolve the
>paradox.

I think we're cool.  According to r33, r394 defers to r301 unless chutzpahs 
are different (which they're not).  So r301 stipulates that Wonko cannot 
occupy the same space as me.  So e doesn't move.  However, all the other 
effects of Tackling occur.

If anyone disagrees with this notion.... feel free to do so publicly :)

Bean

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:16:11 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 9 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/15/02 at 2:19 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>429/2 fails (3-4).
>Glotmorf loses 2 points.

What, even after I took out the Scarf provision?  Tough crowd tonight...

>457/1 fails (3-3-1).
>Glotmorf loses 3 points.

Hmm...The Voice invoked the F-word on me because I had a head start.=
  Okay...what if serialized form was only counted for series beginning with=
 the nweek after its implementation?

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:00:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Gender
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 Since I didn't assign myself a Gender, I declare that
I am Female.

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:10:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 9
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > I thought we decided that discuss didn't count as a
> means of contacting the
> admin... Doesn't this need to go to Business?
gagh... stupid mail set up... shoulda checked the send
adress...

Naath

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:24:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 9 results
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> This week's Colour Commentator is Naath.

hmmm, is this bad or good, and does it mean I have to
do something??

Naath
to lazy to go look.

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:35:54 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Typos
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Donald Whytock,

> Mr. A...a few typos:
> 
> R5 was also revised by 463/0.
> 
> R468: "occuppied" should only have one "p".  Also, it should be "a Fire Gnome"
> rather than "an Fire Gnome".
> 
> R467: "occuppoed" should only have one "p".
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

Oops. Sorry about that. I think there's also a 'square' that should be
plural... My apologies.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:36:01 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 9 results
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Naath Thabana,

> 
>> This week's Colour Commentator is Naath.
> 
> hmmm, is this bad or good, and does it mean I have to
> do something??
> 

Yes, it means you have to make sarcastic and witty comments about the events
of the Football game. But it's not required (Or at least, nobody's done it
yet). I rather suspect that it's a somewhat useless title, as generally only
a few things happen per nweek. If people had voted for my speeding up things
proposal, then the title might have been worth having...

--Wonko

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you. "
- Carl Gustav Jung

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:31:55 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Color Commentary example
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

If Naath needs a place to start with Color Commentary, e might want to=
 check out this webpage...

http://www.satirewire.com/news/march02/madness.shtml

...where two commentators talk about the UN's Global March Madness, with=
 63 nations fighting it out to see who's Number 1.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 06:16:29 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: PIG eating schedule
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

For everyone's convenience, I have written a little javascript utility that=
 shows what proposal the PIG will eat if a certain minimum number of=
 proposals have been entered.    It's at:

http://www.angelfire.com/games4/morfologie/pigmenu.html

You'll need the current gremlin number off the B Nomic roster.  Enjoy.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 01:38:59 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal - Gremlins
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/18/02 at 7:10 PM Daniel Lepage wrote:

First of all, nice to see some activity once again.  I was starting to=
 worry.  Though we still haven't heard from Mr. A for a bit...

>{{
>__The Gremlin Fund__
>
>Append to rule 256 the following $$$$ delimited text:
>$$$$
>There exists an entity called the Gremlin Fund. Whenever a Gremlin is=
 given
>points, those points are immediately given to the Gremlin Fund. If a
>Gremlin
>loses points, those points are taken from the Gremlin Fund. The Gremlin
>Fund
>may never have fewer than 0 points.
>
>Players may give points to the Gremlin Fund in the same manner as giving
>points to other players.
>$$$$
>
>Remove the last section of rule 296.

Might want to use "paragraph" instead of "section" since the first has a=
 specific definition and the second doesn't.

>In the last sentence of rule 296, replace the first occurrence of the=
 words
>"Scoring Gremlin" with "Gremlin Fund".

Second-to-last sentence too?

>After the word 'points' in the second sentence of rule 297, add the text
>"to
>the Gremlin Fund".
>
>In rule 345, remove the last four words of the first section.
>In rule 345, replace the second occurrence and the third to last=
 occurrence
>of the word "Luigi" with "Gremlin Fund". Replace the last occurence of the
>word "his" with "The Gremlin Fund's".

The second occurrence of "Luigi" is in the first paragraph.  This would=
 produce "Gremlin Fund begins existence Active."

>After the word 'points' in the second sentence of rule 347, add the text
>"to
>the Gremlin Fund".
>
>In rule 400, replace the word 'drops' with 'buys' and 'onto' with 'on'.

Why "buys"?  This would cause the steady (and relatively rapid) depletion=
 of the Gremlin Fund, and would mean Rocky would stop dropping Rocks if the=
 Fund ever got close to zero.  Since Rocky's work was meant to be an=
 automatic scheduled action, I'd at least want to see some provision for=
 automatic scheduled income to the fund...such as perhaps a one-point tax=
 on all passed proposals in any nweek that the Gremlin Fund has hit zero.

I'd vote against a proposal that disabled Rocky.  I wanna see what happens=
 when the Grid fills up.

>}}
>
>This gives all Gremlins a single fund that they all work out of. Cursing,
>Bribing, etc. gives 'em more points; they lose points bcs of the Scoring
>Gremlin, buying Rocks, etc.
>
>
>--Wonko

BTW, you might want to take all the points gremlins currently possess and=
 stick them in the Fund.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 02:03:10 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Purina PIG Chow
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>BTW, after this, rule-changing proposals should be safe if the number of
>proposals is between 29 and 56.
>
>						Glotmorf

Damn.  Sorry, Bean, I didn't see your two proposals in the business queue.=
  I should have fed the PIG earlier.

Now it'll take 43 proposals to get the PIG to the Chow.  Might as well get=
 busy...

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:01:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Naath=20Thabana?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 
> Wonko was at 13,14. Eir move to (13,11) would be
> illegal, because that
> move would've placed em at Bean's location, while
> Bean still occupied it.
> 
> Bean subsequently Ran to (12,13).
> 
> Fortunately, that still leaves Wonko in range for a
> Tackle (though no
> players actually come into contact with one another,
> so it's apparently a
> Telekinetic Tackle).
> 
> This places the Football under the control of The
> Voice (the member of
> Team Crimson most distant from that team's endzone).

Ah yes, the football action is hotting up... what with
tackles that can't really happen, since ppl can't
actually be in the same square, I feel that some sort
of long distance shoving is going on here...

Bean loses the ball to TheVoice, being a member of the
other team, this is not so good for poor Bean, who
seems to be the only member of his team...

now back to your regularly scheduled nonsense

Naath
feels stupid

=====
Like duct tape the force is, a light side and a dark side it has, holds the universe together it does, hmm.

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:58:05 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/19/02 at 10:52 AM Karin L. Kross wrote:

>"Cheerleader" is a Title.  The Title "Cheerleader" may be held by 
>any player who is not on a Football team, or who does not already 
>hold the title of "Color Commentator".

Should that be "and" instead of "or"?

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:46:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> >"Cheerleader" is a Title.  The Title "Cheerleader" may be held by 
> >any player who is not on a Football team, or who does not already 
> >hold the title of "Color Commentator".
> 
> Should that be "and" instead of "or"?

I don't think so.  Using "and" would have implied that a player
could be playing football while also being a Commentator, which
is forbidden by 436/0.

Although the more I think about it, the more it seems that either 
usage is valid...

-Congenital Optimist

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders 
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:24:51 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> A Cheerleader must periodically post team cheers in the public 
> forum.  Imitation of actual American football cheerleaders is a 
> necessity.
> 

 Any recommendations for those of us who have no mindshare in American
Football? :)

 Wild Card.

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:49:50 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/19/02 at 1:46 PM Karin L. Kross wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
>
>> >"Cheerleader" is a Title.  The Title "Cheerleader" may be held by 
>> >any player who is not on a Football team, or who does not already 
>> >hold the title of "Color Commentator".
>> 
>> Should that be "and" instead of "or"?
>
>I don't think so.  Using "and" would have implied that a player
>could be playing football while also being a Commentator, which
>is forbidden by 436/0.
>
>Although the more I think about it, the more it seems that either 
>usage is valid...
>
>-Congenital Optimist

"or" and "not" don't tend to work well together.  In this case, if a player=
 is not a Color Commentator, he satisfies the requirement, whether or not=
 he's a Football player; if he's not a Football player, he satisfies the=
 requirement, whether or not he's a Color Commentator.  You want him to be=
 both not a Football player "and" not a Color Commentator.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:07:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> "or" and "not" don't tend to work well together. 

Okay, I'm convinced.  :)  I decided to rewrite the sentence and 
get around the problem altogether...

-Congenital Optimist

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:25:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> 
> "or" and "not" don't tend to work well together.  In this case, if a player is not a Color Commentator, he satisfies the requirement, whether or not he's a Football player; if he's not a Football player, he satisfies the requirement, whether or not he's a Color Commentator.  You want him to be both not a Football player "and" not a Color Commentator.
> 
> 						Glotmorf
Well, they work fine together, it just interpretaion in normal english
useage which is screwy. Rewording the senence to say "neither a football
player nor a coulor comentator is eligable" (i.e. not (A or B)) is
probably what the proposal meant to say. 

(note, if anyone cares, that "not (A or B)" == "not A" and "not B")

cheers,
Iain

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:28:51 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > A Cheerleader must periodically post team cheers in the public
 > forum.  Imitation of actual American football cheerleaders is a
 > necessity.
 >

  Any recommendations for those of us who have no mindshare in American
Football? :)

  Wild Card.

-Sure. Don't be a Cheerleader.-

                                           -BvS-

"Your point is if you light a match near your calculator, it's not going to 
scurry away.
It's all relative. A big fire for Deep Blue, a little match for a little 
calculator."

                            -Murray Foster of Moxy Früvous

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #3
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:21:12 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The cost to produce a DimShip is 100 score.
-.o0(I wonder if anyone else has noted this yet...) Um, do you mean 100 
/points/? 100 score being 2000, and I don't think anyone will EVER have that 
many... um... well, anything. Any dimension. Watch me be proven wrong... Oh, 
and other than that, this is really good. Ever considered publishing your 
work? Just a thought.-

                                              -BvS-

"Your point is if you light a match near your calculator, it's not going to 
scurry away.
It's all relative. A big fire for Deep Blue, a little match for a little 
calculator."

                            -Murray Foster of Moxy Früvous

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:54:24 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 09:28 PM 2002-03-19 -0500, you wrote:
> > A Cheerleader must periodically post team cheers in the public
> > forum.  Imitation of actual American football cheerleaders is a
> > necessity.
> >
>
>  Any recommendations for those of us who have no mindshare in American
>Football? :)
>
>  Wild Card.
>
>-Sure. Don't be a Cheerleader.-

That's right!  Instead, join Team Turquoise and gain mindshare in Nomic 
Football!

Bean

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:36:28 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #3
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/19/02 at 9:21 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>The cost to produce a DimShip is 100 score.
>-.o0(I wonder if anyone else has noted this yet...) Um, do you mean 100 
>/points/? 100 score being 2000, and I don't think anyone will EVER have
>that 
>many... um... well, anything. Any dimension. Watch me be proven wrong...

I know, I know...Call it literary license?  I use score points as money in=
 the stories, but I somehow can't bring myself to say the characters are=
 dealing in "points".  So I used "score" like some might use "quid" or=
 whatever, to give an idea of a lot of money changing hands.

I figured it would be clear enough, since we have charm points, respect=
 points, etc., yet we tend to refer to them as charm or respect.  If anyone=
 honestly thinks this is a problem, I'll bite the bullet and use "points"=
 instead.

>Oh, 
>and other than that, this is really good. Ever considered publishing your 
>work? Just a thought.-

I've submitted stuff in the past to publications, but nothing's been=
 published.  Thanks for the kind word, though.  To be honest, I'm not that=
 happy with some of the sentence structure I've been using in these=
 stories...maybe some of these proposals will be practice for me. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:55:07 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: AHHHHHHHHH!!!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/19/02 at 10:13 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>If anyone has a suggestion about getting a random number of Gremlins from 
>the Gremlin number, it would be appreciated. (Yet another thing I really 
>didn't understand.)

Probably easier to just say something like "1dN randomly selected gremlins,=
 where N is the current number of gremlins".

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: objection 
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:20:10 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The Voice intoned: 
> I object to the Administrator's statement that my Entropy is negative.  Rule 
> 440 states,
> 
> "At the end of each nweek, each player's Entropy shall increase by an amount 
> equal to the sum of the increase in eir charm for that nweek and 1/2 the 
> number of game actions (movements, purchases, throws, etc.)taken during that 
> nweek."
> 
> As my charm did not increase (one proposal passed, two failed), my net 
> INCREASE in charm should be zero.  Therefore, I should not have lost 
> Entropy.

 Ahh, but, speaking as a mathematician, this meant that you had a
NEGATIVE increase (that is an increase of -1 (or whatever the
appropriate number should be)).

 Wild Card.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: objection
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:00:44 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The Voice intoned:
 > I object to the Administrator's statement that my Entropy is negative.  
Rule
 > 440 states,
 >
 > "At the end of each nweek, each player's Entropy shall increase by an 
amount
 > equal to the sum of the increase in eir charm for that nweek and 1/2 the
 > number of game actions (movements, purchases, throws, etc.)taken during 
that
 > nweek."
 >
 > As my charm did not increase (one proposal passed, two failed), my net
 > INCREASE in charm should be zero.  Therefore, I should not have lost
 > Entropy.

  Ahh, but, speaking as a mathematician, this meant that you had a
NEGATIVE increase (that is an increase of -1 (or whatever the
appropriate number should be)).

  Wild Card.

-Oh, let's not bring mathematics into this. That's just not playing fair. 
Speaking as a layperson (Well, taking the stance of a layperson, anyway), 
increase means it goes up. Negative increase = decrease =/= increase, and 
we're measuring increase here.-

                                             -BvS-

"Your point is if you light a match near your calculator, it's not going to 
scurry away.
It's all relative. A big fire for Deep Blue, a little match for a little 
calculator."

                            -Murray Foster of Moxy Früvous

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 04:49:02 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: The latest bug!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I added a questionable "feature" to the B Nomic homepage: the Ultra
Experimental Full Text Search.

It tries to sort results by relevance, but it's bug-ridden at this stage.

Take a look, lemme know what you think. (i.e. is it worth investing a
couple hours to get it working "right"? It only took a few minutes to get
this version up, but doing it correctly would take a fair amount of work.)

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:06:59 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/21/02 at 4:05 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>The proosal formerly known as 473 comes back for some odd reason: "Append
>to Paragraph 47... or was that 48?" is 480/0.

Yeah, sorry about that...I wanted the prose form bonus overhauled before my=
 other prose form proposals were scored.  Shoulda thought of that in the=
 first place.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:22:33 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Drunkeness
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/20/02 at 8:54 PM Wonko wrote:

>{{
>__I'm not as thunk as you drink I am!__
>
>Append to the rule entitled "Beer Cans" the following **** delimited text:
>****
>Blood-Alcohol Content, or BAC, is a Dimension. Whenever a player drinks a
>Beer, eir BAC increases by 1. At the end of each nweek, the BAC of each
>player with a positive BAC decreases by 1. If a player's BAC is greater
>than
>5, e is said to be Inebriated.
>****
>
>Create:
>{{
>__The Goon Gremlin__
>
>There exists a Gremlin known as the Goon Gremlin, or Guido. If Guido is
>Active and in Limbo, and an Inebriated player in Limbo makes a proposal,
>1d8
>is rolled. On a 2 or 3, Guido Smacks that player, taking 4 of eir points.
>On
>a 1, Guido Throws that player in Elbonian Airways style at a random square
>of the Grid which is at least 3 squares away from any border of the grid.
>}}
>}}
>
>--Wonko

I wondered if someone would pick up on the beer-drinking aspect of the Beer=
 Cans rule. :)  However, unless you want Guido to be created regardless,=
 you might want to make your proposal dependent on p481.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:01:09 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: The Plague is Spreading
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Regarding all these potential gremlins in the current proposal=
 list...Perhaps it should be considered that, if the gremlins are ever=
 given the ability to vote, they may outnumber us...

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday evening) 
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:34:03 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> I just realized that my attempt to lighten my load isn't helping...
> Basically, I cut'n'paste proposals from my email into a Web form.
> Previously, I'd have to go through the text of a proposal and manually
> insert linebreaks. Now, the linebreaks go in automatically, but since a
> Web page is usually wider than an email, I have to go in and delete a
> bunch of linebreaks that are where they shouldn't be instead. This kinda
> sucks.

 Acka used to have a proposal bot (which yuo mailed to make a proposal
and it did all the appropriate things.  It also did voting), which
seemed to be a good idea.
 
> Remember, voting starts tomorrow! Get those proposals in, people! (Unless
> you're Glotmorf, who's already hit the bandwidth limit, even with the
> Token of Proposals.)

 I haven't finished reading the rules yet! :).  Speaking of which,
what Timezone is this nomic in?  (it might say, but I haven't found it
yet :().

 Wild Card.

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:17:01 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer
  (Wednesday evening)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/21/02 at 8:34 AM Jonathan David Amery wrote:

>> Remember, voting starts tomorrow! Get those proposals in, people!=
 (Unless
>> you're Glotmorf, who's already hit the bandwidth limit, even with the
>> Token of Proposals.)
>
> I haven't finished reading the rules yet! :).  Speaking of which,
>what Timezone is this nomic in?  (it might say, but I haven't found it
>yet :().
>
> Wild Card.

Zulu, as far as I can tell.  An nday begins at around 6:00 pm EST...as in,=
 about 18 hours ahead of Washington DC.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:08:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Mom?  Where's my jersey?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
> I enter the Grid at (10,10).
> I join Team Turquoise.
> I tackle The Voice.

Ow.  Jumping from the stands onto a football player... that's gonna smart.

Bean

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:08:54 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Mom?  Where's my jersey?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> Well, I wanted to throw out the first beer can of the season, but what the
> hey.
> 
> I enter the Grid at (10,10).
> 
> I pick up the King Gremlin.
> 
> I throw the King Gremlin at Iain.
> 
> I join Team Turquoise.
> 
> I tackle The Voice.
> 
> I move to (9,9).
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

Quoth rule 394:

> Both the tackling and the tackled players do not move at the end of the
> nweek, even if they had already declared movement.

Seems to me that that means you don't move to (9,9).

--Wonko

"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?"
    - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:24:18 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: fix
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
> In the proposal entitled, __Spring my Arse!__, replace the string (9,9) with
> the string (10,10).
> 
> 
> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> *Ignore this signature if :
> 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> 2) it seems outdated
> 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> Thank you, and have a nice day.*
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> 

Unless I'm missing something major here, there IS no proposal entitled
"Spring my Arse!"... Or one which contains the string (9,9)... and the UEFTS
agrees with me...

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:25:14 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Yeti
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

>=20
> {{__Spring my Arse!__
>=20
> Place the Yeti on the Grid at (9,9).
>=20
> }}
>=20
> -0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
> *Ignore this signature if :
> 1) it doesn't make sense to you
> 2) it seems outdated
> 3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
> 4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
> Thank you, and have a nice day.*
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>=20
Oops. Never mind. My mailer just gave me some things in the wrong order.
Most humble apologies.

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it t=
o
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:10:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: the ballot will be out on the morrow
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I'll process everything that arrived before the end of yesterday (in nday
terms) and have a ballot out first thing in the morning. But right now I'm
just too darn tired.

sorry.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:48:22 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Mom?  Where's my
  jersey?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/21/02 at 5:08 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> I tackle The Voice.
>> 
>> I move to (9,9).
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>
>Quoth rule 394:
>
>> Both the tackling and the tackled players do not move at the end of the
>> nweek, even if they had already declared movement.
>
>Seems to me that that means you don't move to (9,9).
>
>--Wonko

Bummer.  Guess I sit there with a stupid grin on my face.

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:50:45 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Mom?  Where's my
  jersey?
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/21/02 at 2:08 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
>> I enter the Grid at (10,10).
>> I join Team Turquoise.
>> I tackle The Voice.
>
>Ow.  Jumping from the stands onto a football player... that's gonna smart.
>
>Bean

Serious example of "flying tackle," no?

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:56:04 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: fix
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/21/02 at 5:12 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>In the proposal entitled, __Spring my Arse!__, replace the string (9,9)
>with 
>the string (10,10).
>
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

Some people might have thrown a gremlin.  Some might have thrown a beer=
 can.  But you threw a yeti at me?

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: fix
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:22:02 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

This one time, Glotmorf said,
>On 3/21/02 at 5:12 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:
>
> >In the proposal entitled, __Spring my Arse!__, replace the string (9,9)
> >with
> >the string (10,10).
> >
> >
> >-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
>
>Some people might have thrown a gremlin.  Some might have thrown a beer 
>can.  But you threw a yeti at me?
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>

Figured I'd go for the whole hog.  Err... Yeti.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs 
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:34:54 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> 444 is assigned to Wild Card

 Invoking 150/1 I judge `True' to this.

 WC.

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:29:46 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > 444 is assigned to Wild Card
>
>  Invoking 150/1 I judge `True' to this.
>
>  WC.

However, I would send this to Business.  When you hit reply, it 
automatically sends it to discuss, that might be your prob.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:07:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: catching up!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Eric Gerlach wrote:

> I'm going to contend that because Wonko said "as soon as moves are
> processed" when he tackled me that it happened last nweek.... because the
> moves actually happened last nweek. (I'm gonna have to fix that bug I
> think... though with more players it shouldn't matter)  That means I can
> move this nweek.

That's exactly how I thought it would work.

...dave

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:15:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:
> > Proposal 470/0: More Football Fixes (Bean)
> No. I don't think it quite works; It allows players to be moved to each
> other's locations, but once they're there it no longer has anything to do
> with them, so rule 301 kicks in again. Then we have an ambiguity.

No ambiguity here.... With regard to players being in the same location,
football supercedes 301.  I'd argue that it includes the aftereffects.
And besides, even if there is ambiguity, 301 takes precedence as it did
last time.  So why not bring it into existance, and if there's dispute
we'll CFJ it or something.

Bean

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:19:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more
 recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Eric Gerlach wrote:

> > > Proposal 470/0: More Football Fixes (Bean)
> > No. I don't think it quite works; It allows players to be moved to each
> > other's locations, but once they're there it no longer has anything to do
> > with them, so rule 301 kicks in again. Then we have an ambiguity.
>
> No ambiguity here.... With regard to players being in the same location,
> football supercedes 301.  I'd argue that it includes the aftereffects.
> And besides, even if there is ambiguity, 301 takes precedence as it did
> last time.  So why not bring it into existance, and if there's dispute
> we'll CFJ it or something.

The ambiguity is easy to spot:

I Tackle Bean.
I resign from the roster of Team Fuchsia.

There's your ambiguity.

...dave

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:34:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: catching up!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> In light of eir contention, I tackle Bean. Oops :)

Crap.  I was hoping to sneak that one through :)

Bean

P.S.  Can anyone tell from my list volume that I'm having a long, slow day
at work today???

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:36:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Another Wacky Idea!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

This is not a proposal, mostly because I want a better name than Al.

{ __Vote Early, Vote Often__

Create a new rule as follows:

{ __Vote Early, Vote Often

There exists a Gremlin known as The Chicago Racketeering Gremlin, also
known as Al. Any player may, for a cost of 20 points, payable to the
Gremlin Fund, ask Al to Stuff the Ballot Box. That player optionally may
specify one active proposal and vote (Yes, No, or Abstain).

Each time the Ballot Box is Stuffed, Al will cast one vote as specified by
the player paying Al (if the player specified a proposal and vote). Al
will also cast five random yes-or-no votes on other proposals on the same
ballot, chosen randomly by the Administrator, and will abstain on all
other proposals on that ballot.

Al may Stuff the Ballot Box multiple times for any given Ballot. Each
Player may only purchase Al's services once for each Ballot. If, on any
Ballot, Al Stuffs the Ballot Box more than three times, Al goes into
Hiding for one nweek, automatically becoming Active at the end of one
nweek. Al's services may not be purchased while e is Hiding.

Players may ask Al to Stuff the Ballot Box either on a public forum, or by
privately contacting the Administrator. In the latter case, the
Administrator shall not reveal what proposal and vote was specified, but
must reveal the player that purchased Al's services.

[[ The reason for the five random votes is to provide cover for the one
vote that is specifically purchased. And since someone will be out 20
points anyway, it'll be fairly obvious who paid Al off. ]]

}

Append the phrase "The Chicago Racketeering Gremlin may vote." to the end
of Rule 294.

}

Is this sufficiently not-ambiguous? Hell, is it even a good idea?

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:46:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Wacky Idea!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, David E. Smith wrote:

> This is not a proposal, mostly because I want a better name than Al.

<politics type="partisan" style="blatant">

We could call him Jeb.

</politics>

-Congenital Optimist
running away.  very fast.

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:54:05 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> YES> Proposal 470/0: More Football Fixes (Bean)
> [[ It may be broken, but it's less broken that what we have now.
> Incremental fixes people... ]]

Um... That's debatable. What we have now is simply telekinetic tackling.
What you want could easily create ambiguous situations.

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs 
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:00:20 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > > 444 is assigned to Wild Card
> >  Invoking 150/1 I judge `True' to this.
> >  WC.
> However, I would send this to Business.  When you hit reply, it 
> automatically sends it to discuss, that might be your prob.

 You know, I think you're right, and in a consistant world that
should've gone to buisness.  However, I don't see anything *requiring*
it to go to business.
 
 WC.

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions) 
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:03:02 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > Proposal 489/0: Happy New nYear! (Wild Card)
> No - I think there's a contradiction; this says that the 2nd nyear starts on
> 10.1 and on 11.1

 No - it only says that for the purpose of claiming free drinks nweek
11 shall *be considered* to be the first nweek of the year.

 WC.

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:08:00 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Proposal 464/0: Falling out of grace. (Uncle Psychosis) - YES
Proposal 465/0: The Golden-Armed Gremlin (The Voice) - YES
Proposal 470/0: More Football Fixes (Bean) - YES
Proposal 471/0: Only running is boring III: Return of the Bean (Bean) - YES
Proposal 472/2: The Gremlin Fund (Wonko) - YES
Proposal 473/1: If It's Not Worth Reading At All, It's Not Worth Reading
		Well (Glotmorf) - YES
Proposal 474/0: We Don't Need No Steenkin' Clee... *splat* (Glotmorf) - YES
Proposal 475/0: DimSpace: The Final Frontier (Glotmorf) - YES
Proposal 476/0: Oh Baby, You SHOULDN'T Have! (Glotmorf) - YES
Proposal 477/1: Cheerleaders (Congenital Optimist) - YES
[[You know, I was going to vote no, but why spoil a perfect ballot?]]
Proposal 478/1: Cover your Ears! (The Voice) - YES
Proposal 479/0: Making up for the Past (The Voice) - YES
Proposal 480/0: Append to Paragraph 47... or was that 48? (Glotmorf) - YES
[[Even though it will make the ruleset even more complicated... Sorry, Mr. 
A.]]
Proposal 481/0: What's Football without Beer? (Glotmorf) - YES
Proposal 482/0: Second Law of Thermodynomics v2.0 (The Voice) - YES
Proposal 483/0: That's Gremlin, SIR, to you, Soldier! (The Voice) - YES
Proposal 484/0: Damn Spectators! (Wonko) - YES
Proposal 485/0: I'm not as thunk as you drink I am! (Glotmorf) - YES
Proposal 486/0: The Riot Police (Baron von Skippy) - YES
Proposal 487/0: The Hell With That (Wonko) - YES
Proposal 488/1: Football Players are People Too! (Wonko) - YES
Proposal 489/0: Happy New nYear! (Wild Card) - YES
Proposal 490/0: Spring my Arse! (The Voice) - YES

                                             -Cheers,-
                                               -BvS-

"Your point is if you light a match near your calculator, it's not going to 
scurry away. It's all relative. A big fire for Deep Blue, a little match for 
a little calculator."

                            -Murray Foster of Moxy Früvous

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:11:26 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On the upshot, Baron von Skippy is removed from the LMJ. You've done your 
time, friend.
-Yeeha!-

447 is assigned to Baron von Skippy
-Aw, jury duty?-

Remember, since these are by-and-large moot points, judging them
"Undecided" is probably an acceptable option.
-But judging "undecided" is a sign of weakness in my 
country/state/county/city, pick the largest that doesn't apply to you, the 
reader.-

"Your point is if you light a match near your calculator, it's not going to 
scurry away.
It's all relative. A big fire for Deep Blue, a little match for a little 
calculator."

                            -Murray Foster of Moxy Früvous

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:39:24 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>  You know, I think you're right, and in a consistant world that
>should've gone to buisness.  However, I don't see anything *requiring*
>it to go to business.
>
>  WC.

Actually, all "official" stuff --i.e. game actions like voting and 
judgements, must be done in a public forum, and technically discuss is not a 
public forum.  I think that's accurate... this is the first time I've had to 
make this argument.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:12:26 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Voter Colonel
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/22/02 at 6:45 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>__Keeping the ballot boxes safe for democracy__

Dude...do you by chance work in a post office?  Near me?

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:43:26 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/22/02 at 5:34 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>NO> Proposal 474/0: We Don't Need No Steenkin' Clee... *splat* (Glotmorf)
>[[ What does slipping and falling do, pray tell? ]]

Same thing as tripping and falling.  Hence its proposed position in the=
 rules.

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:52:38 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/22/02 at 3:57 PM Wonko wrote:

>> Proposal 475/0: DimSpace: The Final Frontier (Glotmorf)
>No. If I'm 'displaced' from my current location, then where I end up
>becomes
>my current location. So if I have a dimship with buoyancy 1 in the Score
>direction, I instantly win. (And then, 'cuz I still have it, I win again=
 an
>infinite number of times).

The displacement is a function of the DimShip.  Without the DimShip, one is=
 still in one's current location.  One doesn't actually move to a new=
 location with the DimShip; one is only "virtually" there.

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:53:31 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/22/02 at 5:57 PM David E. Smith wrote:

>Which gives us the following ballot for nweek 10:

So...no one's doing ratings for the prose forms?

						Glotmorf

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:06:03 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Another Wacky Idea!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Karin L. Kross,

> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, David E. Smith wrote:
> 
>> This is not a proposal, mostly because I want a better name than Al.
> 
> <politics type="partisan" style="blatant">
> 
> We could call him Jeb.
> 
> </politics>
> 
> -Congenital Optimist
> running away.  very fast.

If you do that, it should be the "Florida Racketeering Gremlin", shouldn't
it?

--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:24:17 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ratings.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/22/02 at 10:21 PM Wonko wrote:

>I issue the following ratings:
>
>> Proposal 473/1: If It's Not Worth Reading At All, It's Not Worth Reading
>> Well (Glotmorf)
>4
>> Proposal 476/0: Oh Baby, You SHOULDN'T Have! (Glotmorf)
>6
>> Proposal 481/0: What's Football without Beer? (Glotmorf)
>8 (I liked this one)
>> Proposal 484/0: Damn Spectators! (Wonko)
>10 (of course!)

Of course?  Your scale was 0 to 15.

>> Proposal 486/0: The Riot Police (Baron von Skippy)
>6
>
>
>--Wonko

Gee, I should have kept my mouth shut.  The default was higher. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:02:50 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Proposal 464/0: Falling out of grace. (Uncle Psychosis)
Abstain. On the one hand, the current form of r17 gives the Administrator=
 rather a lot of power.  On the other hand, some of the things that power=
 does is let spurious illegal actions be nipped in the bud before they have=
 to be CFJd.

>Proposal 465/0: The Golden-Armed Gremlin (The Voice)
No.  It doesn't allow for the Football.

>Proposal 470/0: More Football Fixes (Bean)
No.  This allows Players to be in the same Grid location.  Not happy with=
 that...it seems somehow abusable.

>Proposal 471/0: Only running is boring III: Return of the Bean (Bean)
Yes, though I've got an idea for a sort of mod to this.

>Proposal 472/2: The Gremlin Fund (Wonko)
Yes.

>Proposal 473/1: If It's Not Worth Reading At All, It's Not Worth Reading
>		Well (Glotmorf)
Yes.  Rated, of course, 15.  Pragmatic narcissism.

>Proposal 474/0: We Don't Need No Steenkin' Clee... *splat* (Glotmorf)
Yes.  Rated 15.

>Proposal 475/0: DimSpace: The Final Frontier (Glotmorf)
Yes.  Rated 15.

>Proposal 476/0: Oh Baby, You SHOULDN'T Have! (Glotmorf)
Yes.  Rated 15.

>Proposal 477/1: Cheerleaders (Congenital Optimist)
Yes.

>Proposal 478/1: Cover your Ears! (The Voice)
No.  In its current form it defers to the separate rules that define when a=
 Gremlin is active or hiding.  Except for Gremlins created after this rule,=
 it's a do-nothing.

>Proposal 479/0: Making up for the Past (The Voice)
No.  The cold death of the Nomiverse will come soon enough, thank you.

>Proposal 480/0: Append to Paragraph 47... or was that 48? (Glotmorf)
Yes.

>Proposal 481/0: What's Football without Beer? (Glotmorf)
Yes.  Rated 15.

>Proposal 482/0: Second Law of Thermodynomics v2.0 (The Voice)
No.  I prefer Charm over the number of proposals submitted, since Charm=
 reflects the proposals enacted.  Now, if you were to change it to the=
 number of proposals enacted...

>Proposal 483/0: That's Gremlin, SIR, to you, Soldier! (The Voice)
Yes.

>Proposal 484/0: Damn Spectators! (Wonko)
Yes.  Rated 10.

>Proposal 485/0: I'm not as thunk as you drink I am! (Glotmorf)
Yes, though it's actually Wonko's.  But I'll be happy to grab opportunity=
 by the throat for em.

>Proposal 486/0: The Riot Police (Baron von Skippy)
No.  Is Limbo within one square of somewhere?

>Proposal 487/0: The Hell With That (Wonko)
Yes.

>Proposal 488/1: Football Players are People Too! (Wonko)
No.  I'd like to see some checks and balances for this sort of thing.

>Proposal 489/0: Happy New nYear! (Wild Card)
Yes.

>Proposal 490/0: Spring my Arse! (The Voice)
No.  I didn't throw anything bigger than myself at The Voice. :)

						Glotmorf

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs 
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:48:53 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Actually, all "official" stuff --i.e. game actions like voting and 
> judgements, must be done in a public forum, and technically discuss is not a 
> public forum.  I think that's accurate... this is the first time I've had to 
> make this argument.

 *nods*, however I can't see anything that says that a Judgement is an
Action :)  (and the Administrator appears to have recognised it).

 WC.

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:20:02 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Reassigned CFJs 
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan David Amery,

>> Actually, all "official" stuff --i.e. game actions like voting and
>> judgements, must be done in a public forum, and technically discuss is not a
>> public forum.  I think that's accurate... this is the first time I've had to
>> make this argument.
> 
> *nods*, however I can't see anything that says that a Judgement is an
> Action :)  (and the Administrator appears to have recognised it).
> 
> WC.

Well, if you're going to get technical about it, nowhere does it explicitly
state that Proposing is an Action either. But it doesn't need to, as making
a Proposal is, most definitely a game action.

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:38:47 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> >Proposal 482/0: Second Law of Thermodynomics v2.0 (The Voice)
>No.  I prefer Charm over the number of proposals submitted, since Charm 
>reflects the proposals enacted.  Now, if you were to change it to the 
>number of proposals enacted...
>						Glotmorf

Glotmorf, you ninny.  If you had actually read the proposal, you would see 
that it says, "number of proposals e had on the ballot for that nweek which 
passed."  As far as I know, passed and enacted mean more or less the same 
thing in this situation.  You don't have a complaint.  Voting against 
something is one thing, voting against something and giving an incorrect 
reasoning is another.

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday afternoon) 
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:27:48 +0000
From: Jonathan David Amery <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Wild Card: I can't acknowledge your Prose ratings, because, per 438/1, you
> have to vote in order to give out a rating. Please either vote and put
> your ratings with the ballot, or at least put a note in your ballot that
> you'd already sent ratings so I remember to look for 'em.

 I voted at 23:15:59 GMT on Fri, 22 Mar 2002 (according to my copy of
the list messages), and the digest.

 (Message-Id: <[email-masked]>)

 WC.

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:45:35 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Saturday
 afternoon) 
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>  I voted at 23:15:59 GMT on Fri, 22 Mar 2002 (according to my copy of
> the list messages), and the digest.

Ah, there it is. Sorry, guess I overlooked it.

...dave

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:07:26 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and
  more recognitions)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Now, how do I tie thith thing...?

On 3/23/02 at 4:38 PM Tyler Crosby wrote:

>> >Proposal 482/0: Second Law of Thermodynomics v2.0 (The Voice)
>>No.  I prefer Charm over the number of proposals submitted, since Charm 
>>reflects the proposals enacted.  Now, if you were to change it to the 
>>number of proposals enacted...
>>						Glotmorf
>
>Glotmorf, you ninny.  If you had actually read the proposal, you would see=
 
>that it says, "number of proposals e had on the ballot for that nweek
>which 
>passed."  As far as I know, passed and enacted mean more or less the same 
>thing in this situation.  You don't have a complaint.  Voting against 
>something is one thing, voting against something and giving an incorrect 
>reasoning is another.
>
>-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-

I object to the term "ninny".  It'th not in current vogue, and carrieth a=
 thertain thithified connotation to it. (Ith a thithy thomeone who can't=
 coherently thay "thithified"?)  I believe "moron" ith currently in=
 fathion.

Athide from that, one might look at your propothal and conthider "that=
 nweek which passed" to mean the nweek that ith now over.  Ethpecially when=
 one ith looking at it at 3:00 am.

I think I thtill prefer Charm, though.  There are other thingth that can=
 increath entropy in the thythtem, and they can be tied to Charm too.  But=
 thinth I apparently mithread the propothal, I'll change my vote on it to=
 Abthtain, thinth the resulth aren't pothted yet.

						Glotmorf

P Eth: Doeth anyone know if I can grant negative thtyle pointh?

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ack! My mail was all eaten!
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:11:30 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

This is totally off topic, but was the- what's the word I'm looking for- 
inspiration for your address (squeekybobo) the character with the same name 
from Sluggy?

And, out of curiosity, how many Sluggites do we have in this game, anyway?

                                          BvS

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more recognitions)
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:28:25 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I object to the term "ninny".  It'th not in current vogue, and carrieth a 
thertain thithified connotation to it. (Ith a thithy thomeone who can't 
coherently thay "thithified"?)  I believe "moron" ith currently in fathion.
-Or "Daffy Duck." Is the scarf serving as a spit shield as well?-

						Glotmorf

P Eth: Doeth anyone know if I can grant negative thtyle pointh?
-Sure. It's like whatever that argument was about a couple days ago, with 
Entropy, wasn't it? It's probably legal. If it's not, I had nothing to do 
with this...-

                                       -BvS-

"Your point is if you light a match near your calculator, it's not going to 
scurry away.
It's all relative. A big fire for Deep Blue, a little match for a little 
calculator."

                            -Murray Foster of Moxy Früvous

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:03:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: ID Scott <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ack! My mail was all eaten!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Worship the comic.

cheers,
Iain

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Alex Truelsen wrote:

> This is totally off topic, but was the- what's the word I'm looking for- 
> inspiration for your address (squeekybobo) the character with the same name 
> from Sluggy?
> 
> And, out of curiosity, how many Sluggites do we have in this game, anyway?
> 
>                                           BvS
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 
> 

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:46:06 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ballot, nweek 10 (and more
	recognitions)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> 
> P Eth: Doeth anyone know if I can grant negative thtyle pointh?

> -Sure. It's like whatever that argument was about a couple days ago, with
> Entropy, wasn't it? It's probably legal. If it's not, I had nothing to do
> with this...-
> 

As far as I can tell, there's nothing anywhere that says you can grant
anyone style points, whether positive or negative (except by giving them the
scarf).
--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:47:19 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ack! My mail was all eaten!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Rob Speer wrote:
> 
>> Th Pnk Scrf s nt Mufflng.
> 
> Yay!
> 
>> I object to the thatement that I should be penalized
>> for not giving away the Thcarf for thith nweek,
>> because ith not yet nday 2.
> 
> The penalty is for not giving it away at the start of nweek 10, not for
> nweek 11. (We're still in nweek 10)
> 
> My records (i.e. the list archives) show you received the Scarf at the
> start of nweek 8 on February 26 from Scoff! and have had it ever since.
> 
> You were penalized for having it at the start of nweek 9 (I send the mail
> with that penalty on March 9).  The present penalty for having it at the
> start of nweek 10.
> 
> If you don't get rid of it in a couple days, you'll be penalized for
> retaining it during nweek 11 (which hasn't started yet).
> 
>> At the end of the nweek, I award the Thcarf to
>> Glotmorf.
> 
> There's one way to get rid of it. :-)
> 
>> I buy a Big Rock, drop it on Chrithtine, run to (6,
>> 6), and fly Elbonian to (12, 12).
> 
> The Rock purchase is completed, at a cost of 17 points.
> 
> You're gonna love this one... The original Big Rock is crushed by the new
> Big Rock, but (and I swear I rolled this randomly) the new Big Rock has a
> siren of its own. Her name is Robin, by the way.
> 
> Your move is thus illegal. Sorry, Rob.
> 
> (Aside: Rob, if you need an email account, you can get one with a
> not-silly name from www.bureau42.com/mail/ . Yeah, it's blatant
> self-promotion, but there's only a couple hundred users there, so most of
> the cool names are still available.)
> 
> ...dave
> 
Wait... I thought if a Big Rock lands on another, then both are destroyed,
aren't they?

"If a Big Rock is placed in the same location as another Big Rock, both Big
Rocks, as well as anything sitting on the original Big Rock, are destroyed
and the location becomes vacant."

--Wonko

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
- Salvador Dali

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:48:11 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ack! My mail was all eaten!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth ID Scott,

> Worship the comic.

Is it not nifty?

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:42:26 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ack! My mail was all
  eaten!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 10:48 AM 2002-03-24 -0500, you wrote:
>Quoth ID Scott,
>
> > Worship the comic.
>
>Is it not nifty?

Let me check my notes....

Bean

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:44:08 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Voter Colonel
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 09:12 PM 2002-03-22 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/22/02 at 6:45 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >__Keeping the ballot boxes safe for democracy__
>
>Dude...do you by chance work in a post office?  Near me?

I don't think I work in a post office... however, if you watch a lot of Red 
Dwarf you'd get the reference.  It was inspired equally by recently 
watching that Red Dwarf episode (Back to Reality) and Mr. A's "Stuffing the 
ballot box" proposal.

No, I haven't been pronounced clinically insane. (yet)

Bean

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:53:48 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Voter Colonel
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Eric Gerlach,

> At 09:12 PM 2002-03-22 -0500, you wrote:
>> On 3/22/02 at 6:45 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>> 
>>> __Keeping the ballot boxes safe for democracy__
>> 
>> Dude...do you by chance work in a post office?  Near me?
> 
> I don't think I work in a post office... however, if you watch a lot of Red
> Dwarf you'd get the reference.  It was inspired equally by recently
> watching that Red Dwarf episode (Back to Reality) and Mr. A's "Stuffing the
> ballot box" proposal.
> 
> No, I haven't been pronounced clinically insane. (yet)
> 

I pronounce Bean to be clinically insane.

There. :)

--Wonko

"I have an IQ of 6,000, equal to the combined IQ of 6,000 P.E. teachers."
- Holly

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ack! My mail was all eaten!
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:22:36 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 > Worship the comic.

Is it not nifty?

-So, that's four nerd-boys so far. Sweet...-

                                               -BvS-

A little wisdom... would be a welcome change from this:

He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

The lottery is a tax on people who can't do math.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:51:42 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Voter Colonel
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/24/02 at 5:44 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>At 09:12 PM 2002-03-22 -0500, you wrote:
>>On 3/22/02 at 6:45 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>>
>> >__Keeping the ballot boxes safe for democracy__
>>
>>Dude...do you by chance work in a post office?  Near me?
>
>I don't think I work in a post office... however, if you watch a lot of
>Red 
>Dwarf you'd get the reference.  It was inspired equally by recently 
>watching that Red Dwarf episode (Back to Reality) and Mr. A's "Stuffing
>the 
>ballot box" proposal.
>
>No, I haven't been pronounced clinically insane. (yet)
>
>Bean

I lost track of Red Dwarf after the third season or so.  First I saw of it=
 in ages was the episodes after the crew got reconstituted, and not many of=
 those.  Is "Back to Reality" at all related to the "Better Than Life"=
 product?

Aside from that, I'm generally against vote-buying measures, since they can=
 lead to the passage of "Fred wins/gains absolute power/steals everything=
 from everyone" proposals.  And no, that's not just sour grapes over mine=
 not working.

						Glotmorf

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:21:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Voter Colonel
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
> On 3/24/02 at 5:44 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> I lost track of Red Dwarf after the third season or so.  First I saw of
> it in ages was the episodes after the crew got reconstituted, and not
> many of those.  Is "Back to Reality" at all related to the "Better Than
> Life" product?

The show went downhill after the crew got reconstituted, IMO.  Seasons 3-5
were the best ones (though 1-2 were quite good as well)

> Aside from that, I'm generally against vote-buying measures, since they
> can lead to the passage of "Fred wins/gains absolute power/steals
> everything from everyone" proposals.  And no, that's not just sour
> grapes over mine not working.

Well, I tried to make this one as useless as possible... while still being
somewhat effective.  Look at the cost: 50 * num of proposals to affect *
number of people to affect

So to change one vote on one proposal it's 50 points... and it only goes
up from there.  Not to mention that The Voter Colonel can just be
repressed.... it is a Gremlin after all :)

Bean

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:12:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Lepage <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Fascism
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Well, I tried to make this one as useless as
possible... while still being somewhat effective. 
Look at the cost: 50 * num of proposals to affect *
number of people to affect

So to change one vote on one proposal it's 50
points... and it only goes up from there.  Not to
mention that The Voter Colonel can just be
repressed.... it is a Gremlin after all :)

Bean

---
Except, if it's as useless as possible, why make it?

--
Wonko

__________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:23:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Fascism
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Daniel Lepage wrote:
> Well, I tried to make this one as useless as possible... while still
> being somewhat effective.
>
> ---
> Except, if it's as useless as possible, why make it?

Because it's still somewhat effective? :)

More specifically, it's always there, lurking in the shadows... if it
becomes active during a nweek... you may not know until it's too late that
there's a shadowy figure waiting outside the ballot box to talk to you...
IOW, it keeps us all on our toes. ;)

The "as useless as possible" comment would have been perhaps better
phrased as "as difficult to use as possible".  If you want it to really
have a good effect, you've gotta drop several hundred points in its
direction.  However, the results of doing so would be fun :)  Blam!  Four
players don't vote this week or the next.

I'm likely never going to get to use it.... but why not?

Bean

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:00:23 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Fascism
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:12:58PM -0800, Daniel Lepage wrote:
> Well, I tried to make this one as useless as
> possible... while still being somewhat effective. 
> Look at the cost: 50 * num of proposals to affect *
> number of people to affect

That's not all that much of a cost to change votes. In a slow week, you
could pass a proposal with 5 votes, effectively meaning that once you
have 250 points you can get 1000.
-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:10:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Fascism
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Rob Speer wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:12:58PM -0800, Daniel Lepage wrote:
> > Well, I tried to make this one as useless as
> > possible... while still being somewhat effective.
> > Look at the cost: 50 * num of proposals to affect *
> > number of people to affect
>
> That's not all that much of a cost to change votes. In a slow week, you
> could pass a proposal with 5 votes, effectively meaning that once you
> have 250 points you can get 1000.

Actually, I just thought of an interesting, completely unintentional
effect of The Voter Colonel that helps with that.... It goes on killing
until it reaches its "killing quota"... Which means that (with a small
tweak, which I shall make), if you paid for 5 people to die, and only 5
people vote on the proposal... you die too, and since everyone is dead,
the proposal doesn't pass!  It's a fine line....

Well, if no one wants to vote for it I'm cool with that... I just think
this game needs a bit more of an element of danger to it (heh heh heh).

Bean

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:33:38 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 10 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/26/02 at 2:49 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>Rocky is Active, and drops a new Big Rock at (10,10).

Amazing.  The Voice blew me out of the way of the meteor.  Good thing I=
 picked a gender;  I might otherwise feel compelled to kiss em or=
 something.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:50:12 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Use Them or Lose Them
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/25/02 at 11:08 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>I propose: __Removal of Cruft__
>{{
>
>1. Repeal rule 204/1. [[ It doesn't work, because it attempts to
>legislate what rules can do. This is impossible. Not screwing with time
>should be a matter of game etiquette. ]]

And we all know Nomic is an etiquette-based game.  Right.  R204, among=
 other things, prevents paradox in the form of "This rule never existed"=
 rules.  I like that, especially if Bean's sociopathic proposal goes=
 through.

>2. Modify rule 214/1 to read:
>{{ The value of the Clock must be displayed in public view. If the Clock
>is Off, the value of the Watch must be displayed in public view. }}

Have we defined what "public view" is?  Would spraypainted onto a Brooklyn=
 subway wall count?

>3. Repeal rule 215/0.
>
>4. Remove the two last paragraphs of rule 216/0. (Sorry - the 'proposing
>multiple rules' mechanism is entirely messed up. My bad.)

Um...it worked in my Nomilogue #1...

>5. In Rule 260/1, change the text
>{{ with the text "*name* gets a Kick in the Ass." }}
>to
>{{ indicating that e is giving that player a Kick in the Ass, and the
>reason why. }}
>
>6. In proposal 300/1, change the text
>{{ A second rules listing will be added to the game state }}
>to
>{{ A second rules listing is part of the game state }}

Iffy, since the second listing doesn't exist at the moment.  Does this mean=
 it is valid for the game state to contain a second listing, whether or not=
 it actually does?

>7. In rule 301/3, remove the paragraph
>{{ The distance between two squares is the square root of (the
>difference in x-values of the squares squared plus the difference in
>y-values of the squares squared). }}
>[[ Rule 407, "Space", makes it redundant. ]]
>
>8. In Rule 401/0, change the text {{ ZOE }} to {{ ZOE and ZATR }}. 
>[[ Right now Wax would not help you get away from a Siren. ]]
>
>}}
>
>
>-- 
>Rob Speer

I have issues with #s 1, 4 and 6; otherwise I'm okay with the rest.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:01:24 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: nweek 10 results
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/26/02 at 2:49 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>475/0 passes (4-3-1).
>Created 493/0.
>Glotmorf scores 8 points.

Great.  I was writer's-blocked on chapter 4 if the proposal went through,=
 but had an idea ready if it failed.  So of course it went through...

Funny thing is...I've got chapter 5 almost finished.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:59:18 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Cinquains Suck
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/25/02 at 11:29 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>I propose: __Cinquains Suck__
>{{
>Repeal
>rule 3 9 9,
>but only after this
>proposal has recieved three points
>from it.
>}}
>
>[[ Yes, so I'm hypocritical, but I suppose the rule might as well get
>used once. ]]
>
>[[ I'll elaborate on my opinion: I get the distinct impression that the
>cinquain as a poetic form was invented by middle school teachers, as a
>form that even the most brain-damaged of students could handle. Can
>someone demonstrate otherwise? ]]
>-- 
>Rob Speer

There ith an entire magathine for thith poetic form (the name of whicth I=
 don't know how to pronounthe).  The magathine ith called "Amaze", whicth=
 ith the name of a work by the woman who invented the form in 1910.  Thhe=
 liked haiku, and dethided to make up thomething thimilar.

Whicth doethn't thay that middle-thcool teactherth aren't uthing it for=
 their brain-damaged thtudenth.

The webthite for "Amaze" ith http://www.denisgarrison.com/amaze/front.html.=
  Pleathe, though, Rob, don't athume I'm thticking up for the poetic form,=
 thinthe I hadn't heard of it before thith Nomic game.

Maybe thomeone thould propothe Hallmark ath a poetic form.  I think thoth=
 poemth in Hallmark cardth are tho thweet.

						Glotmorf

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:59:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Roast the PIG
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Glotmorf wrote:
> On 3/26/02 at 12:18 AM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >And yes, that's right.  I plan on killing people.  This feeling will
> >likely subside in the next 30 minutes.... but for now I'm feeling evil.
> >
> >And because my proposals are in early... and the gremlin number is 113,
> >if anyone proposes anything, I'm safe, and if not, it's only Death that
> >dies. (Ironic, no?)
> >
> >Bean
>
> Oh, Bean, you vithiouth brute.  You mutht underthtand that killing
> people ith not the anthwer.  You may think ith cool now to dreth up like
> Keanu and go thooting up roomth full of people, but remember Keanu altho
> did A Walk in the Cloudth, and I thtill haven't forgiven him for that
> one.

Oh Glotmorf, you take me too seriously.  I'm not a murderous sociopath, as
you suggest.  In fact, my favourite character from The Matrix was not that
played by our good friend Keanu, but that of Laurence Fishburne.  The
thinker, the teacher, the optimist.

In reality, all these dark things spewing forth from my terminal come for
two reasons.  One, I have a dark sense of humour this week.  Why?  I don't
know.  Two, the game is fairly bright and cheery, with all sorts of happy
things (e.g. The Pink Scarf); we would be fools to completely forget our
own mortalities ;)

Anyone know if they've made it illegal to keep a human skull on your desk
like the authors of yore?

> And why were you thurprithed?  I told everyone where they could find out
> which propothal the pig would conthume:
> http://www.angelfire.com/games4/morfologie/pigmenu.html. I even gave an
> example of a meanth to thathiate the pig with Purina Pig Chow...would've
> worked if I'd thelected a player inthtead of Mithter A, but I didn't
> want to thuggetht a player get five rethpect pointh jutht to feed the
> pig...

*sigh* To be honest, I wasn't surprised... just absent-minded and
subsequently annoyed.  As I said, I think that the PIG isn't too fond of
football... first it stopped its inception, and then it stopped passing.
Coincidence?  I think not.  It's conspiring against me, I tell you... all
the Gremlins are against me....

> Tithk, Bean.  Thaying you want to thlay people jutht becauthe you threw
> a path to the pig.  That ith tho butch...Perhapth it'd help you adjutht
> your perthpective if you had the thcarf for a while, thinthe it tho
> doethn't go with a black leather trenchcoat.  Your gender ithn't
> declared right now, but ith an odd nweek and an even nday, tho you'll be
> lithping your vithiouth athathination thtatementh for a while.

It's not *only* because of the PIG... I just think the game would be a lot
more fun if there was something to be a little afraid of.  Well, that and
I had this proposal about a Gremlin that Killed you... and I thought:
"Hey!  Wouldn't it be neat if you could die in a bunch of ways?"  I have a
feeling I'm going to die faster than most... but such is the way of
things.

I thought I had declared my gender long ago... oh well, I'll just
redeclare it.

> Bethideth, ith maybe a little thtylith that you thaid to thubtract from
> your Charm over thith.  Even you knew you jutht weren't in your color
> there.  But maybe with the thcarf you will be.

It's not particularily charming, declaring oneself to be bitter.  In fact
it's sort of anti-charming.  Oh well, such is the way of things.

Bean

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:14:56 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Use Them or Lose Them
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:50:12AM -0500, Glotmorf wrote:
> On 3/25/02 at 11:08 PM Rob Speer wrote:
> 
> >I propose: __Removal of Cruft__
> >{{
> >
> >1. Repeal rule 204/1. [[ It doesn't work, because it attempts to
> >legislate what rules can do. This is impossible. Not screwing with time
> >should be a matter of game etiquette. ]]
> 
> And we all know Nomic is an etiquette-based game.  Right.  R204, among other things, prevents paradox in the form of "This rule never existed" rules.  I like that, especially if Bean's sociopathic proposal goes through.

Any rule which wanted to be annoying like that would override rule 204.
If necessary it would have an absurdly high Chutzpah. But people know
to vote against rules that give themselves too much Chutzpah, and people
should know to vote against proposals that change the past.

If 204 were put at some godly amount of Chutzpah and prevented anything
from having more Chutzpah than it, then a proposal could temporarily
repeal 204 to get its work done.

It is unworkable to make a rule that limits what Proposals can do, so
why pretend we can?

> >2. Modify rule 214/1 to read:
> >{{ The value of the Clock must be displayed in public view. If the Clock
> >is Off, the value of the Watch must be displayed in public view. }}
> 
> Have we defined what "public view" is?  Would spraypainted onto a Brooklyn subway wall count?

That wouldn't be especially visible to the public of the Nomic. Though,
"nweek 11, nday 2" would be quite a fascinating piece of graffiti.

> >3. Repeal rule 215/0.
> >
> >4. Remove the two last paragraphs of rule 216/0. (Sorry - the 'proposing
> >multiple rules' mechanism is entirely messed up. My bad.)
> 
> Um...it worked in my Nomilogue #1...

Huh. Now that I look at it, it _does_ make sense. It didn't make sense
back when we had no title delimiters.

The examples are irrelevant, though, so I'll change my proposal to take
those out.

> >5. In Rule 260/1, change the text
> >{{ with the text "*name* gets a Kick in the Ass." }}
> >to
> >{{ indicating that e is giving that player a Kick in the Ass, and the
> >reason why. }}
> >
> >6. In proposal 300/1, change the text
> >{{ A second rules listing will be added to the game state }}
> >to
> >{{ A second rules listing is part of the game state }}
> 
> Iffy, since the second listing doesn't exist at the moment.  Does this mean it is valid for the game state to contain a second listing, whether or not it actually does?

It doesn't? What's this Keywords List, then?

-- 
Rob Speer

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:36:12 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Use Them or Lose Them
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:50:12AM -0500, Glotmorf wrote:
>> On 3/25/02 at 11:08 PM Rob Speer wrote:
>> 
>>> I propose: __Removal of Cruft__
>>> {{
>>> 
>>> 1. Repeal rule 204/1. [[ It doesn't work, because it attempts to
>>> legislate what rules can do. This is impossible. Not screwing with time
>>> should be a matter of game etiquette. ]]
>> 
>> And we all know Nomic is an etiquette-based game.  Right.  R204, among other
>> things, prevents paradox in the form of "This rule never existed" rules.  I
>> like that, especially if Bean's sociopathic proposal goes through.
> 
> Any rule which wanted to be annoying like that would override rule 204.
> If necessary it would have an absurdly high Chutzpah. But people know
> to vote against rules that give themselves too much Chutzpah, and people
> should know to vote against proposals that change the past.
> 
> If 204 were put at some godly amount of Chutzpah and prevented anything
> from having more Chutzpah than it, then a proposal could temporarily
> repeal 204 to get its work done.
> 
> It is unworkable to make a rule that limits what Proposals can do, so
> why pretend we can?

Because we can. We can't limit what proposals can *intentionally* do -
there's always a "de-activate the entire ruleset except what's need to pass
this rule" possiblity, but we certainly can limit what proposals can
accidentally do. I can't think of a good example right off the top of my
head, but there's always the possibility that an error in a proposal could
result in the rewriting of large sections of the past. As long as we have
204, historical rewrites can *only* be intentional. Then it still is a
matter of ettiquette.

Besides, this way an intentional time-changing proposal is more obvious,
because the "suspend this rule" bit needs to be there, so it's harder for
some crafty proponent to rewrite the rules without the rest realizing it.

>>> 2. Modify rule 214/1 to read:
>>> {{ The value of the Clock must be displayed in public view. If the Clock
>>> is Off, the value of the Watch must be displayed in public view. }}
>> 
>> Have we defined what "public view" is?  Would spraypainted onto a Brooklyn
>> subway wall count?
> 
> That wouldn't be especially visible to the public of the Nomic. Though,
> "nweek 11, nday 2" would be quite a fascinating piece of graffiti.

What's wrong with what we've got now?

>>> 3. Repeal rule 215/0.
>>> 
>>> 4. Remove the two last paragraphs of rule 216/0. (Sorry - the 'proposing
>>> multiple rules' mechanism is entirely messed up. My bad.)
>> 
>> Um...it worked in my Nomilogue #1...
> 
> Huh. Now that I look at it, it _does_ make sense. It didn't make sense
> back when we had no title delimiters.
> 
> The examples are irrelevant, though, so I'll change my proposal to take
> those out.
> 
>>> 5. In Rule 260/1, change the text
>>> {{ with the text "*name* gets a Kick in the Ass." }}
>>> to
>>> {{ indicating that e is giving that player a Kick in the Ass, and the
>>> reason why. }}
>>> 
>>> 6. In proposal 300/1, change the text
>>> {{ A second rules listing will be added to the game state }}
>>> to
>>> {{ A second rules listing is part of the game state }}
>> 
>> Iffy, since the second listing doesn't exist at the moment.  Does this mean
>> it is valid for the game state to contain a second listing, whether or not it
>> actually does?
> 
> It doesn't? What's this Keywords List, then?

Um... Why don't we just say that each rule can have attributes called
Keywords? Why do we need "A second rules listing" in the game state? And if
there's a list of keywords, isn't part of the gamestate by definition?

--Wonko

"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?"
    - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:40:06 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Exclusive doors
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

> <proosal>
> <title>Exclusive doors.</title>
> <body>
> [[I missed the deadline to appeal this. Therefore, a little hoop-jumping is
> required.]]
> Create a new rule, numbered 123 and with a chutzpah of 2 [[so it takes
> precedence over r126]], named "Appeal of CFJ 447.", with the following
> @@@-delimited text:
> @@@
> The Judgement on CFJ 447 is overturned. The CFJ records will be updated to
> indicate the judgement was overturned, and if necessary, the game state is
> modified so that play can continue as if CFJ 447 was originally judged
> "Undecided". This rule then repeals itself.
> [[Analysis:
> The initiator's reasoning was:
> "As the Administrator pointed out, declarations of Respect are not Proposals
> for the purpose of scoring. Ergo, there's an established custom in the rules
> that declarations of respect shouldn't earn the author a reward."
> The judge's was:
> "What Scoff! said, for one. Also, if we let votes for respect count as votes
> towards the Token of Proposals, then we'd have respect cropping up all over
> the place, as people try to grab yes votes. And that would get
> annoying, fast."
> 
> Firstly, the fact that declarations of respect don't count for scoring, and
> therefore they shouldn't count for the ToP, is akin to saying that because
> they don't count for style, they shouldn't count for scoring. In fact, it's
> even weaker, because they are explicitly defined not to count for scoring,
> indicating that they are in other ways (including scoring) identical to normal
> proosals.
> 
> Secondly, while I may agree with the idea that respect cropping up all over
> the place would be annoying, it should have absolutely no place in a Judge's
> reasoning. Saying "if this is true, bad things will happen" is the argument
> from adverse consequences, and that's a fallacy. If you don't like it, by all
> means change it, but don't try and make it go away by shutting your eyes to
> it.
> ]]
> @@@
> [[This is just what R404 does for an appeal.]]

Except doesn't r404 give the case to someone else? If it just kills it
straight out, we've got some revising to do.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with your interpretation - the rules said
nothing about counting yes votes.

But let's observe proper ettiquette when brutally suppressing someone else's
Judgment.

--Wonko

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to
dance."
- George Bernard Shaw

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:05:16 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Sirens and Cheerleaders
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Karin L. Kross,

> Siren Bait also works on Cheerleaders, only if the Cheerleader's
> declared gender is Female.  When a Female Cheerleader is in a
> Grid square immediately adjoining a piece of Siren Bait (either
> horizontally, vertically, or diagonally), the Cheerleader may
> only move within those squares, as if e were within a Siren's
> Zone of Enchantment.

So if a Cheerleader has wax in eir ears, e's immune to Siren bait?

--Wonko

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't
cure. "
- Ross MacDonald

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:21:40 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Exclusive doors
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > [[This is just what R404 does for an appeal.]]
>
> Except doesn't r404 give the case to someone else? If it just kills it
> straight out, we've got some revising to do.
>
> Don't get me wrong; I agree with your interpretation - the rules said
> nothing about counting yes votes.
> 
> But let's observe proper ettiquette when brutally suppressing someone else's
> Judgment.
>
R404 doesn't reassign, it just sets the verdict to undecided. I wanted my proosal to work just the same way as an appeal.

Mmm... bug-compatible...

I'd agree that this way kind of sucks, but revising the appeals process is another proosal.

uin.
-- 

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:29:36 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: Ruling - 462
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Seems to me that any answer but FALSE would be a contradiction...
>
I don't think so. It's only a contradiction if the statement is FALSE. If the statement is TRUE, then any judgment but TRUE would be a contradiction of the *statement*, although the actual CFJ would never have existed, so with respect to the rules you could judge it POTATOE, if you wanted. 

> Also seems
> to me that this CFJ is completely useless, and that it would be nice if
> people could find ways to point out holes without filling the CFJ page with
> meaningless CFJs.
>
But it's not useless. A verdict of TRUE, with analysis to the effect that the Admin needs to go back and fix his recognitions before the CFJ can exist, would confirm the existence of the problem. That's important, because if you don't beat people about the heads with such things, they tend to ignore them. ;-)

Admittedly, it would be a little strange after he rerecognised, because the verdict then *would* be a contradiction, but... well, it doesn't actually matter, because CFJs don't actually do anything. I could have worded the CFJ differently, but it still wouldn't exist until the admin fixed his recognitions, so I didn't see that it would have helped much.

I'm giving serious consideration to appealing this too, on the grounds that the reasoning didn't even try to address the actual issue. A verdict of FALSE is fine, but only if supported by reasoning that says that the admin has fixed his recognitions (or even reasoning that explains why he doesn't have too, if there's a valid explanation to that effect).

uin.
-- 

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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:46:37 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposals-Sheep, Shears
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/26/02 at 10:03 PM Wonko wrote:

>{{
>__Notice how they do not so much fly as... plummet__
>
>{{
>__Sheep Gnomes__
>
>There exist Gnomes call Sheep Gnomes. At the beginning of each nweek, 2
>Sheep Gnomes shall drop upon random squares on the grid. If a Sheep Gnome
>lands on a square occuppied by an impassable object, it is destroyed and
>the
>square it landed on, each square consective to that square, and all=
 objects
>and entities in those squares gain the attribute Wet. If a Sheep Gnome
>lands
>on a player, that player loses 1d4 points to the Gremlin Fund.
>}}
>}}
>
>{{
>__Shear a Sheep to Sponge a Square__
>
>{{
>__Shears__
>
>There exist objects called Shears. Any player who does not have Shears may
>pay 5 points to get them. Any player who possessess both Shears and a=
 Sheep
>Gnome may Shear the Sheep, in which case e gets a Cotton Sponge and eir
>Sheep Gnome turns into a randomly selected other type of Gnome.
>}}
>
>{{
>__Cotton Swabs__
>
>There exist objects called Cotton Sponges.
>
>If a player has a Cotton Sponge which is not Wet, e may Sponge the square=
 e
>is in. When a player Sponges a square, if that square or any object in=
 that
>square is Wet, then that square and those objects all become dry and the
>Sponge gains the attribute Wet.
>
>If a player has a Cotton Sponge which is Wet, e may Soak the square e is
>in.
>When a player Soaks a square, if that square or any object in that square
>is
>not Wet, then that square and those objects all become Wet and the Sponge
>loses the attribute Wet.
>}}
>
>}}
>
>--Wonko

Why ith everyone tho dethtructive thith week?  Ecthploding pigth,=
 high-orbital-intherthion theep...thith ith not a nomiverthe I'd want any=
 kiddieth of mine to grow up in...

Ath for the dethtructive power of a falling theep...I've not theen any=
 inthtanthe in any depicthion of theep in literature or animathion where=
 they dethtroy thingth on impact, the phythicth of high-velothity matheth=
 of wool notwithtanding.  Motht typically, the theep impacth the thurfath,=
 hangth there a moment with ith legth thpread out, then thlowly thlideth=
 down.  Thometimeth there'th a theep print left in the thurfathe, but=
 mothtly the imprint ith made on the theep.

What'th more, ithn't Elbonian Airwayth an impathable object?  Tho you're=
 thuggethting the routhing thelling of airporth with bleating ballth of=
 wool?

Other than that...perhapth the thpongeth can be thrown?

						Glotmorf

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:29:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposal: Sirens and Cheerleaders
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:

> So if a Cheerleader has wax in eir ears, e's immune to Siren bait?

Ah.  Good nitpick.  I'll fix that.

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:04:31 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proposals-Sheep, Shears
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> 
> Ath for the dethtructive power of a falling theep...I've not theen any
> inthtanthe in any depicthion of theep in literature or animathion where they
> dethtroy thingth on impact, the phythicth of high-velothity matheth of wool
> notwithtanding.  Motht typically, the theep impacth the thurfath, hangth there
> a moment with ith legth thpread out, then thlowly thlideth down.  Thometimeth
> there'th a theep print left in the thurfathe, but mothtly the imprint ith made
> on the theep.
> 
> What'th more, ithn't Elbonian Airwayth an impathable object?  Tho you're
> thuggethting the routhing thelling of airporth with bleating ballth of wool?
> 
> Other than that...perhapth the thpongeth can be thrown?
> 
> Glotmorf

Elbonian Airways is passable... Otherwise we could never use them...

I like the idea of sponges getting thrown, though. Unfortunately, I've just
discovered that this proposal does not actually exist - I missed the little
"Scoff! gives the Sushi to Wonko." bit. So I'll try resending, but I doubt
my new proposals will make much sense.

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:55:24 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Temperature
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> [[ Instead of Dave's stopgap method of giving the Weather, let's
> actually define a characteristic! Yay! ]]
> 
> I propose: __Temperature__
> {{
> 
> 1. Create a rule: __Temperature__ {* Weather, 1 *}
> {{ 
> The characteristic of Temperature has a value in degrees Celsius.
> Only values of Temperature that are less than or equal to 0 are
> considered Freezing.
> 
> If the Temperature ever goes below -30, it is set to -30, and if it ever
> goes above 40, it is set to 40.
> 
> Whenever the Weather is updated, (the 15th Gremlin number minus 8)
> shall be added to the Temperature.
> }}
> 
> 2. Set the Temperature to -10 [[ in celebration of this lovely spring
> weather ]].
> 
> 3. Throw the Yeti at (10, 10) in the manner that Elbonian Airways would,
> except that it does not lose any points.
> }}

But the weather rule says "The Weather has characteristics, which are the
same as the weather where the administrator resides (or in another place of
his choosing)."

This new thing has to take precedence over that in order to change the
temperature from that of the Admin's location.

Although it might be a good idea simply to define all Characteristics of
weather like your temperature thing, just so we have more freedom to screw
with them.

--Wonko

 "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:25:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: once again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

... sorry for the delay.

I'm a happy person, in that I've been busily lining up -- gasp! -- a date.
Yes, even The Administrator gets a little happiness in his personal life
from time to time.

I'm off work tomorrow, so all queued proosals and so on will be
acknowledged at that time.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:17:46 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Real (for my first it held?  This
  hour.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/27/02 at 11:17 AM Wonko wrote:

>__ Negation, it spreads out, it hides,! _ _
>

Hm.  I'd give it a 12.

						Glotmorf

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:20:21 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: once again...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/28/02 at 4:25 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>... sorry for the delay.
>
>I'm a happy person, in that I've been busily lining up -- gasp! -- a date.
>Yes, even The Administrator gets a little happiness in his personal life
>from time to time.
>
>I'm off work tomorrow, so all queued proosals and so on will be
>acknowledged at that time.
>
>...dave

Ooo.  Invite her to play in the game.  That'll help your dinner=
 conversations make a lot more sense.

Or alternately cause her to run away screaming.  Which will save time in=
 the long run.

						Glotmorf

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: once again...
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:24:29 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: once again...
>Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:20:21 -0500
>
>On 3/28/02 at 4:25 AM David E. Smith wrote:
>
> >... sorry for the delay.
> >
> >I'm a happy person, in that I've been busily lining up -- gasp! -- a 
>date.
> >Yes, even The Administrator gets a little happiness in his personal life
> >from time to time.
> >
> >I'm off work tomorrow, so all queued proosals and so on will be
> >acknowledged at that time.
> >
> >...dave
>
>Ooo.  Invite her to play in the game.  That'll help your dinner 
>conversations make a lot more sense.
>
>Or alternately cause her to run away screaming.  Which will save time in 
>the long run.
>
>						Glotmorf
>
>

I can see it now: Players are whipped.  Whipped-ness is a dimension...

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
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2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:52:20 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Temperature
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 03:55:24PM -0500, Wonko wrote:
> But the weather rule says "The Weather has characteristics, which are the
> same as the weather where the administrator resides (or in another place of
> his choosing)."

Oh - it does? I must have never seen that. I thought that he just chose
to use the weather where he resides in the absence of any other
definition.

-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: once again...
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:05:27 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I can see it now: Players are whipped.  Whipped-ness is a dimension...

-If a player's gender is Male, eir Whipped value is either Completely, Does 
Not Apply, or In Denial. If a player is Female, e may select a Male player 
to Whip.-

A little wisdom... would be a welcome change from this:

He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

The lottery is a tax on people who can't do math.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:52:10 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also
> amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the
> Idol."

Except by that logic, every other rule which 'creates' a gremlin is also
illegal, as none of those rules ever amended that rule. I would claim that
the Gremlins are actually created not by the rules themselves, but by the
proposals to create the rules. Proposals can create Gremlins whether or not
they amend that rule as well.

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers

From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:59:06 -0500
Subject: RE: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> > "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also
> > amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the
> > Idol."
>
>
> Except by that logic, every other rule which 'creates' a gremlin is also
> illegal, as none of those rules ever amended that rule. I would claim that
> the Gremlins are actually created not by the rules themselves, but by the
> proposals to create the rules. Proposals can create Gremlins whether or not
> they amend that rule as well.
>
<fotc>
CFJ 254 - effects of rules created by a proosal are *not* effects of that proosal. So, unless the proosals that created those rules also created the gremlins, it would appear that the Voice speaks true.
</fotc>

Of course, he tried to name 2 defendants, so it's not a valid CFJ, and therefore doesn't exist...

uin,
knows who he'd pick.
-- 

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From: "Gavin Doig" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:17:41 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: RE: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday morning)
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> "And yet you are possessed." is 519/0 and contains very confusing logic.
> If I may ask, how is Rule 10 pointless? (Yeah, the last sentence is
> debatable -- and I wrote the damn thing. But how do you get there for the
> rest of the rule? If game entities aren't obliged to actually follow the
> damn rules, we might as well be playing Calvinball.)
>
Didn't we just leave this party?

Game entites (points or proosals or whatever) only exist as defined by the rules, so by definition have to follow them. Therefore rule 10 doesn't do anything for them.

Players can only modify the game state in accordance with the rules, by r152 (and probably some others). Therefore, we don't need r10 to make us obey them. Additionally, because actions we take out of game *cannot* be governed by the rules (if the rules say, for example, "all players must give all their money to Scoff!", then we'd all break them) it can lead to a situation where the rules state something is true which is false. Harmful? Perhaps not. Pretty? Not really.

And I'm not sure how the last sentence is debatable; it looks pretty clear-cut to me. ;-)

> "Making crazy sounds." is 521/0.
> Uncle Psychosis drinks a complimentary glass of champagne (gaining 4 Style
> points but no BAC, oddly). E can't stagger around on the Grid, seeing as
> how e's in Limbo, so e merely looks rather silly. (Hey, I didn't write
> that one... it's in the rule. honest.)
>
Go me! I may look silly, but I'm now the 3rd most stylish entity in the game!

I drink an infinite number of glasses of champagne, and then do the dance of filtering-your-mail-into-folders-by-to-field.

uin.
-- 

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:02:41 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> Well, this isn't good. Okay, then, I'm going to try this:
> 

> 
> Add the following k:-O delimited text to the end of the list in Rule 293:
> 
> k:-O
> 10) May NOT be apprehended by the Police Gremlin, unless eir BAC is greater
> than or equal to 5, in which event they are still apprehended, but no points
> are taken from em.
> k:-O
> 

By my count we're up to nine, not ten (less since Goldie may also be
technically illegal)

> 
> If Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset, create a new rule with the
> following +0:-) delimited text:
> 
> +0:-)
><snip>
> +0:-)

Rule 501 will not be 'removed' from the ruleset, it will cease to ever have
been part of the ruleset (and some other rule will have been 501 all along,
I think). You might consider changing this to something like,
"If there is no rule entitled <whatever you called it>, make a rule with
that name that reads as follows:"

--
Wonko
hates it when the past is wrong.

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:05:10 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The Daily Recognizer (Friday morning)
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Yeah, it looks as though p518 should be Sushified at some point (assuming
> it's Wonko's). (I'm operating under the assumption that Wonko will, as
> soon as it's legal, get rid of the Sushi and re-submit legible revisions
> of everything. May I suggest one of the inactive/on-leave players -- I'm
> pretty sure they're legal recipients of the Sushi, and it'll make life so
> much easier for everyone else.)

I did sushify it... But because I made p517 and p518 in the same msg, I
sushiied the entire msg... What's currently listed as __They... The plummet
with the thing vast quantity flight range it peels together and like this
__  actually contains p518, __ the sheep it was orderly in the scissors
sponge, __ (the first rule in p518 appears to now be entitled __ __).

--Wonko

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
- Salvador Dali

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:21:50 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Gavin Doig,

>>> "Any rule which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also
>>> amend this rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the
>>> Idol."
>> 
>> 
>> Except by that logic, every other rule which 'creates' a gremlin is also
>> illegal, as none of those rules ever amended that rule. I would claim that
>> the Gremlins are actually created not by the rules themselves, but by the
>> proposals to create the rules. Proposals can create Gremlins whether or not
>> they amend that rule as well.
>> 
> <fotc>
> CFJ 254 - effects of rules created by a proosal are *not* effects of that
> proosal. So, unless the proosals that created those rules also created the
> gremlins, it would appear that the Voice speaks true.
> </fotc>

Well, alright, so the proposal didn't create the Gremlin. But then what did?
None of the rules ever said "upon the passing of this rule, the **** Gremlin
will be created." They just said "There is a gremlin called the ****
Gremlin." That doesn't look like it's creating it, it's just sort of
pointing it out...

But if a judge decides that they were "created" by these rules, then the
following things never happened:

465/0 passes (4-3-1).
Created 492/0.
Created 293/2.
The Voice scores 10 points.
Created The Golden-Armed Gremlin.

483/0 passes (6-1-1).
Created The Five-Star General Gremlin.
Created 499/0.
The Voice scores 8 points.

485/0 passes (6-1-1).
Created 498/2.
Created 500/0.
Created Guido.
Glotmorf(actually me in disguise) scores 11 points.

486/0 passes (4-1-3).
Created Copper.
Created 501/0.
Baron von Skippy scores 11 points.

446/0 passes (7-0).
Created 402/1.
Created Curt and Rod.
The Voice scores 15 points.

--Wonko
Save the Gremlins!

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:24:55 -0500
From: Rob Speer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal 515 revision
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 08:10:27AM -0500, Gavin Doig wrote:
> I amend proosal 515, "Exclusive doors.", by removing the text "numbered 123 and". It'll still have the Chutpah to override the CFJ, but it won't confuse the admin's database. ;-)

I am fairly sure that there is no flaming gremlin named Bruce, much less
one numbered 515, and that the tags that surrounded your proposal in the
first place must have been a typo.

-- 
Rob Speer

From: "Tyler Crosby" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:42:14 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>But if a judge decides that they were "created" by these rules, then the
>following things never happened:
>
>465/0 passes (4-3-1).
>Created 492/0.
>Created 293/2.
>The Voice scores 10 points.
>Created The Golden-Armed Gremlin.
>
-0- Amended the r293 (or whichever rule) appropriately. -0-
>483/0 passes (6-1-1).
>Created The Five-Star General Gremlin.
>Created 499/0.
>The Voice scores 8 points.
>
-0- Doesn't affect players DIRECTLY--only affects Gremlins directly.-0-
>485/0 passes (6-1-1).
>Created 498/2.
>Created 500/0.
>Created Guido.
>Glotmorf(actually me in disguise) scores 11 points.
-0- True, wouldn't have happened, re:my CFJ -0-
>486/0 passes (4-1-3).
>Created Copper.
>Created 501/0.
>Baron von Skippy scores 11 points.
-0- Ditto. -0-
>446/0 passes (7-0).
>Created 402/1.
>Created Curt and Rod.
>The Voice scores 15 points.
-0- Irrelevant, happened before the changes to r293 took place.  Anyway, 
r293 covers it (the player w/Idol can't Climb through the Window).-0-
>
>--Wonko
>Save the Gremlins!
>

-0- Thus Spake The Voice -0-
*Ignore this signature if :
1) it doesn't make sense to you
2) it seems outdated
3) you feel moved to make a sarcastic comment
4) you didn't read to the end of this list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.*

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From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:01:20 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

 > Well, this isn't good. Okay, then, I'm going to try this:
 >

 >
 > Add the following k:-O delimited text to the end of the list in Rule 293:
 >
 > k:-O
 > 10) May NOT be apprehended by the Police Gremlin, unless eir BAC is 
greater
 > than or equal to 5, in which event they are still apprehended, but no 
points
 > are taken from em.
 > k:-O
 >

By my count we're up to nine, not ten (less since Goldie may also be
technically illegal)

-Who said they had to be in numerical order? I thought you would have done 
something like what I did, so I put mine after yours.-

 >
 > If Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset, create a new rule with the
 > following +0:-) delimited text:
 >
 > +0:-)
 ><snip>
 > +0:-)

Rule 501 will not be 'removed' from the ruleset, it will cease to ever have
been part of the ruleset (and some other rule will have been 501 all along,
I think). You might consider changing this to something like,
"If there is no rule entitled <whatever you called it>, make a rule with
that name that reads as follows:"

-Oh, good point. Frip. Okay, I'll fix that. Thankee.-

--
Wonko
hates it when the past is wrong.

A little wisdom... would be a welcome change from this:

He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

The lottery is a tax on people who can't do math.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:10:53 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>But if a judge decides that they were "created" by these rules, then the
>following things never happened:
>
>465/0 passes (4-3-1).
>Created 492/0.
>Created 293/2.
>The Voice scores 10 points.
>Created The Golden-Armed Gremlin.
>
-0- Amended the r293 (or whichever rule) appropriately. -0-
>483/0 passes (6-1-1).
>Created The Five-Star General Gremlin.
>Created 499/0.
>The Voice scores 8 points.
>
-0- Doesn't affect players DIRECTLY--only affects Gremlins directly.-0-
>485/0 passes (6-1-1).
>Created 498/2.
>Created 500/0.
>Created Guido.
>Glotmorf(actually me in disguise) scores 11 points.
-0- True, wouldn't have happened, re:my CFJ -0-
>486/0 passes (4-1-3).
>Created Copper.
>Created 501/0.
>Baron von Skippy scores 11 points.
-0- Ditto. -0-
>446/0 passes (7-0).
>Created 402/1.
>Created Curt and Rod.
>The Voice scores 15 points.
-0- Irrelevant, happened before the changes to r293 took place.  Anyway,
r293 covers it (the player w/Idol can't Climb through the Window).-0-

-So, me and Wonko just need a handy bag 'o loopholes like Voice does... I 
/knew/ that would have come in handy!-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:51:07 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Tyler Crosby,

> 
>> But if a judge decides that they were "created" by these rules, then the
>> following things never happened:
>> 
>> 465/0 passes (4-3-1).
>> Created 492/0.
>> Created 293/2.
>> The Voice scores 10 points.
>> Created The Golden-Armed Gremlin.
>> 
> -0- Amended the r293 (or whichever rule) appropriately. -0-
No, the *proposal* to create the rule changed r293. The *rule* which
"created" the Gremlin didn't, and therefore was illegal by r293.

>> 483/0 passes (6-1-1).
>> Created The Five-Star General Gremlin.
>> Created 499/0.
>> The Voice scores 8 points.
>> 
> -0- Doesn't affect players DIRECTLY--only affects Gremlins directly.-0-
Giving players a new ability doesn't affect them?

>> 485/0 passes (6-1-1).
>> Created 498/2.
>> Created 500/0.
>> Created Guido.
>> Glotmorf(actually me in disguise) scores 11 points.
> -0- True, wouldn't have happened, re:my CFJ -0-

>> 486/0 passes (4-1-3).
>> Created Copper.
>> Created 501/0.
>> Baron von Skippy scores 11 points.
> -0- Ditto. -0-

>> 446/0 passes (7-0).
>> Created 402/1.
>> Created Curt and Rod.
>> The Voice scores 15 points.
> -0- Irrelevant, happened before the changes to r293 took place.
No, it didn't. I checked. (r293 changed at the beginning of nweek 9)
> Anyway, 
> r293 covers it (the player w/Idol can't Climb through the Window).-0-
Again, the proposal may have changed it, but the *rule* didn't.

>> 
>> --Wonko
>> Save the Gremlins!
Ha! Like that's gonna happen.
>> 

--Wonko
Kill the Gremlins!

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:56:12 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #4
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> {{ _These are the Voyages of the DimShip Benomicant_
> 
> [[
> 
> "So...think they'll launch at the end of the week?"
> 
> "They think so.  They're sure gonna try."
> 
> "This'll be a first flight, right?  Shakedown cruise?"
> 
> "Yeah.  That's why the backer's taking the chief engineer along."
> 
> "Poor bastard.  Glad they didn't need me."
> 
> "Why?  The prototype came back okay."
> 
> "Yeah, but what about the other prototype?"
> 
> "What other prototype?"
> 
> "Exactly."
> 
> "...Oh."
> 
> "No one's saying what happened to the first one, except it's why they were
> using pigs in the second one."
> 
> "Thought they used monkeys for that sort of thing."
> 
> "Didn't you see 'Alien'?  Pig guts are real close to human guts.  They wanted
> to see if the trip would scramble people's insides."
> 
> "Charming."
> 
> "But disrespectful.  I hear they think one of the pigs is stranded in the Snob
> Realm."
> 
> "Have you thought about how weird all this extradimensional stuff is?"
> 
> "I try not to.  Seen the ship?"
> 
> "Yeah.  It's really...it's kinda...I thought it was...it's..."
> 
> "Bland?"
> 
> "Yeah.  I don't get it.  It's supposed to travel through dimensions, right?
> But it looks so...boring."
> 
> "Think that has to do with the dimensions...all these subjective terms for
> them.  Maybe the ship has to be boring so that it doesn't bias itself in any
> one direction."
> 
> "That make sense to you?"
> 
> "Nope.  Guess that's why I don't have an advanced degree."
> 
> "But boring or not, people are gonna climb inside and ride it somewhere, I
> guess.  They issued a policy update today."
> 
> "Musta missed that.  What's it say?"
> 
> ]]
> 
> Append to the last paragraph of rule 493 the following:
> 
> "A DimShip, once built, can be launched at the end of the nweek."
> 
> [[
> 
> "Huh.  And it's built, isn't it?  The...Benomicant?"
> 
> "Yep.  That's why they had the barbecue party.  By the way..."
> 
> "Yeah?"
> 
> "Whatever happened to that last test pig?"
> 
> "Well, I can see why *you* don't have an advanced degree..."
> 
> ]]
> 
> }}
> 
> 
That's a pretty big proposal for two lines of text :)

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:10:41 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: proosal
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Jonathan David Amery,

> {{
> __proosal__
> 
> Amend rule 259 by changing the text between the third and fourth " to read:
> {{
> Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
> }}
> }}

What, isn't someone going to make 'Bruce, the Flaming Gremlin'?

Though you're right, there should be a Holy Hand Grenade.

--Wonko

 "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. "
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:52:30 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Nomilogue #4
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/29/02 at 11:56 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> {{ _These are the Voyages of the DimShip Benomicant_
>> 
>That's a pretty big proposal for two lines of text :)
>
>--Wonko

And not even a new rule.  I know. :P

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:01:33 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Ahhh...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/29/02 at 4:21 PM Wonko wrote:

>There, that second one makes sense. I almost forgot about the
>Eng-Ger-Fre-Eng option with the Sushi.
>
>Now then,
>
>I amend all my proposals to be in the last unsushiied from I posted.
>
>By the way, what's with all this "Kill the PIG! Death to Cinquains!" etc.
>attitude? Sure, we don't like them, but couldn't we find some more=
 creative
>way to deal with them? Like this:
>
>{{
>__The Curse of the Cinquain__
>
>In r399, replace the sentence "The Form Bonus for a Cinquain is 3 points."
>with "The Form Bonus for a Cinquain is the loss of 3 points of Charm and 2
>point of Respect, plus a point loss equal to the points gained by the
>proponent for that proposal."
>
>Append to r213 the text
>"The aforementioned restrictions on messages do not apply to messages if
>those messages contain nothing but a proposal in Cinquain form with no
>comments and, optionally, a signature."
>}}
>
>--Wonko

Um.  Tho there'th a loth in two dimenthionth and no point gain for the=
 Form, in ecthange for being able to do an unthuthified propothal?

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:08:18 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal 515 revision
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/29/02 at 4:24 PM Rob Speer wrote:

>On Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 08:10:27AM -0500, Gavin Doig wrote:
>> I amend proosal 515, "Exclusive doors.", by removing the text "numbered
>123 and". It'll still have the Chutpah to override the CFJ, but it won't
>confuse the admin's database. ;-)
>
>I am fairly sure that there is no flaming gremlin named Bruce, much less
>one numbered 515, and that the tags that surrounded your proposal in the
>first place must have been a typo.
>
>-- 
>Rob Speer

Tagth don't have to be a thpethific format, ath long ath they clearly=
 delimit the propothal.  E could have in fact uthed "Flaming Gremlin named=
 Bruthe" (lithp or no lithp) and it would have been actheptable.

But e thtill can't amend it. :)

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:14:25 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Revisionization
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/30/02 at 4:22 AM David E. Smith wrote:

>I revise my "Apathy Clause" proposal in its entirety to the following:
>
>{{ __Death, Taxes...__
>
>[[ Some things are just inevitable. Like the fact that, whether or not
>this passes, I'll be offline for a few days. ]]
>
>At 00:00:01 UCT on April 18, 2002, The Clock shall be turned Off until the
>Watch reaches 3 wdays, at which point the Clock shall be turned On.
>
>}}
>
>I'll recognize it, and everything since the last recognizer mail, sometime
>soon.
>
>...dave

That mutht have been thome date...

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:18:18 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thurprithe!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> I change my thtatuth to "off the grid".
> 
> I enter the grid at (12,10).
> 
> I join Team Turquoithe.
> 
> I tackle the Voithe.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 

Um, dude, you were already on the grid, and on Team Turquoise... 'changing
your status' is an illegal modification of the gamestate... Will the admin
not recognize this because it is illegal or do we have to CFJ you?

--Wonko

"640K ought to be enough for anybody. "
    - Bill Gates (1955-), in 1981

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:22:59 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thurprithe!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> I change my thtatuth to "off the grid".
> 
> I enter the grid at (12,10).
> 
> I join Team Turquoithe.
> 
> I tackle the Voithe.
> 
> Glotmorf
> 
> 
In fact this is doubly illegal, because the now obsolete ruel "Screw That!"
says

No player's information (name, score, etc) may be changed except as the
rules explicitly allow.

and the ruel "State Changes" says

Changes to the state of the game may only be made via a Proposal or via an
Action which is permitted by the Rules.

So you've got two ruels that forbid what you did.

--Wonko

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:26:12 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thurprithe!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Glotmorf,
> 
>> I change my thtatuth to "off the grid".
>> 
>> I enter the grid at (12,10).
>> 
>> I join Team Turquoithe.
>> 
>> I tackle the Voithe.
>> 
>> Glotmorf
>> 
>> 
> In fact this is doubly illegal, because the now obsolete ruel "Screw That!"
> says
> 
> No player's information (name, score, etc) may be changed except as the
> rules explicitly allow.
> 
> and the ruel "State Changes" says
> 
> Changes to the state of the game may only be made via a Proposal or via an
> Action which is permitted by the Rules.
> 
> So you've got two ruels that forbid what you did.
> 
> --Wonko
> 
> "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
> - Paul Erdos
> 

Wow. I can spell, really. Just pretend I said 'rule' instead of 'ruel'.

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:29:23 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Miscellaneous fixes
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Karin L. Kross,

> 
> {{
> 
> Amend 495/0 by adding the following:
> {{
> Cheerleaders may be on the Grid or in Limbo.
> }}
> 
> Amend 356/0 by adding the following:
> {{
> A Female Player stands a 1-in-10 chance of *not* being affected
> by a Siren.  If a Female Player enters the area that would be
> considered a Siren's ZOE, 1d10 is rolled.  On a roll of 1, the
> Player may move freely, as if the Siren does not exist.
> }}
> 
> }}
> 
So cheerleads have a 1-in-10 chance of escaping bait?
And doesn't this say that if on a one, that player may move freely around
that siren forever? Like, if she leaves the ZOE and comes back, 1d10 is
rolled again, but it doesn't matter because she's already immune to that
siren/siren bait?

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:39:33 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: CFJ
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Tyler Crosby,
> 
>> 
>>> 446/0 passes (7-0).
>>> Created 402/1.
>>> Created Curt and Rod.
>>> The Voice scores 15 points.
>> -0- Irrelevant, happened before the changes to r293 took place.
> No, it didn't. I checked. (r293 changed at the beginning of nweek 9)
>> Anyway, 
>> r293 covers it (the player w/Idol can't Climb through the Window).-0-
> Again, the proposal may have changed it, but the *rule* didn't.

Oops. You're right - I was looking at a proposal to fix the windows. Sorry.

--Wonko

Gremlins: They're not just for breakfast anymore.

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:25:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Karin L. Kross" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Miscellaneous fixes
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Wonko wrote:

> So cheerleads have a 1-in-10 chance of escaping bait?
> And doesn't this say that if on a one, that player may move freely around
> that siren forever? Like, if she leaves the ZOE and comes back, 1d10 is
> rolled again, but it doesn't matter because she's already immune to that
> siren/siren bait?

Sigh.  Friggin' loopholes.

I'll have to fix these later.  For various real-life reasons, I 
don't have the time to write up a proper amendment.

-klk

-- 
[email-masked] | http://seishonagon.org
"Luckily, right at that moment, an unconscious Argentinian 
 fell through my roof!"      --Christian in "Moulin Rouge"

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 14:26:47 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Thurprithe!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/30/02 at 9:26 AM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Wonko,
>
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> I change my thtatuth to "off the grid".
>>> 
>>> I enter the grid at (12,10).
>>> 
>>> I join Team Turquoithe.
>>> 
>>> I tackle the Voithe.
>>> 
>>> Glotmorf
>>> 
>>> 
>> In fact this is doubly illegal, because the now obsolete ruel "Screw
>That!"
>> says
>> 
>> No player's information (name, score, etc) may be changed except as the
>> rules explicitly allow.
>> 
>> and the ruel "State Changes" says
>> 
>> Changes to the state of the game may only be made via a Proposal or via
>an
>> Action which is permitted by the Rules.
>> 
>> So you've got two ruels that forbid what you did.
>> 
>> --Wonko
>> 
>Wow. I can spell, really. Just pretend I said 'rule' instead of 'ruel'.
>
>--Wonko

Hmm...I'd theen thith in r301: "Once a player is on the Grid, e may only=
 leave the Grid [[e.g. change his status to "off the Grid"]] or move to=
 other units on the Grid in a manner prescribed by the rules."  It didn't=
 occur to me that there wath in fact no manner tho prethcribed in the=
 ruleth. :P

On the upthide, I now have an idea for my fifth propothal...

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 14:43:42 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Making crazy sounds.
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/29/02 at 8:22 AM Gavin Doig wrote:

><proosal>
><title>Making crazy sounds.</title>
><body>
>[[The rules are big enough, without having redundant ones. Let's clean
>up.]]
>Repeal rule 150 [[duplicated by R152]].

There ith thtill no clear and thorough definition of "game state";=
 therefore it ith not thertain that r152 coverth r150.

>Repeal rule 155 [[proosals can override it anyway (c.f. CFJ 254, and CFJs
>can't "call for effects" anyway]].

Flaming Gremlinth named Bruthe can only pretend to override it.  And there=
 aren't any anyway.

>Repeal rule 259.

No.  Thith rule ith important.  It helpth uth make fun of you. :)

>Repeal rule 358 [[never been used, and you can do it anyway]].

Rule 0 hathn't been uthed either, but I don't recommend repealing it.

></body>
></proosal>
>
>Oh, and I drink a glass of champagne, which apparently I may do.
>
>uin.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 14:49:15 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Eh. Why not?
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> {{
> __Repeal rule 150.__
> 150 is dumb.
> Therefore, we should repeal it.
> Repeal 150.
> }}
> 
> --Wonko
> 
> "640K ought to be enough for anybody. "
> - Bill Gates (1955-), in 1981
> 
> 
> 
Oops. I didn't realize that this was already in one of UP's proposals. I'll
come up with something else to stick in here.

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:35:58 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Detach Weather from reality
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Rob Speer,

> I amend proposal 508 (Temperature) by inserting the following paragraph
> at the beginning:
> {{
> 0. Amend Rule 405/1 by removing the following text:
> ", which are the same as the weather where the administrator resides (or
> in another place of his choosing"
> }}
What's gonna define the wind, then? Or did that fail?

--Wonko

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
- Galileo Galilei

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:36:50 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Detach Weather from reality
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Wonko,

> Quoth Rob Speer,
> 
>> I amend proposal 508 (Temperature) by inserting the following paragraph
>> at the beginning:
>> {{
>> 0. Amend Rule 405/1 by removing the following text:
>> ", which are the same as the weather where the administrator resides (or
>> in another place of his choosing"
>> }}
> What's gonna define the wind, then? Or did that fail?
> 
> --Wonko
> 
> "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with
> sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
> - Galileo Galilei
> 
I guess it did.
-- 
Wonko

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Eh. Why not?
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:41:12 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Oops. I didn't realize that this was already in one of UP's proposals. I'll
come up with something else to stick in here.

-Nah, leave it in. UP's flaming Gremlin named Bruce *cough* does a number of 
things, so it might not pass if people are opposed to specific parts of it. 
Redundancy is good.-

--Wonko

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato

The letters in
"To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in the mind to 
suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
can be rearranged to spell
"In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet, 
queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten."

I don't think I want to play whoever came up with this in Scrabble...

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:56:02 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Proosal: Making crazy
	sounds.
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 3/29/02 at 8:22 AM Gavin Doig wrote:
> 
>> <proosal>
>> <title>Making crazy sounds.</title>
>> <body>
>> [[The rules are big enough, without having redundant ones. Let's clean
>> up.]]
>> Repeal rule 150 [[duplicated by R152]].
> 
> There ith thtill no clear and thorough definition of "game state"; therefore
> it ith not thertain that r152 coverth r150.

I would think the gamestate would be the state of the game...

>> Repeal rule 155 [[proosals can override it anyway (c.f. CFJ 254, and CFJs
>> can't "call for effects" anyway]].
> 
> Flaming Gremlinth named Bruthe can only pretend to override it.  And there
> aren't any anyway.

The way it's currently worded, it can be overridden easily by creating a
rule that checks who voted for the proposal and takes precedence over 155

>> Repeal rule 259.
> 
> No.  Thith rule ith important.  It helpth uth make fun of you. :)

I'm waiting for someone to make Bruce.
 
>> Repeal rule 358 [[never been used, and you can do it anyway]].
> 
> Rule 0 hathn't been uthed either, but I don't recommend repealing it.

Yes, but rule 0 is useful. Rule 358 is useless - if a proposal depends on
another proposal, then whoever votes against the dependee will vote against
the dependant as well. Besides, r358 doesn't let us do anything that we
don't already do just by writing it out.

--Wonko

"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or
1024 chickens?"
    - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 04:10:58 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: Giving Credit
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/30/02 at 3:27 PM Wonko wrote:

>I append to my __Back from Exile__ proposal the sentence:
>
>"Transfer one quarter of the points gained by Wonko from the passing of
>this
>proposal from Wonko to Glotmorf"
>
>After all, Enrique was eir idea for a name.
>
>--Wonko

Enrique thcoreth with the ladieth, you thee.

						Glotmorf

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 04:18:02 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: No search and seizure without a warrant
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/30/02 at 11:57 PM Alex Truelsen wrote:

>Gah. I missed some things. This is almost comical. It's late, I'm not 
>functioning... Replace the previous amendment to the amendment to my 
>proposal for this nweek with the following
>WILLTHISTORTURENEVEREND-delimited 
>text:
>
>WILLTHISTORTURENEVEREND
>      A few days pass...
>      "Wonko CFJ?d? You can?t be serious!"
>      "It?s all over the news, Baron. If this CFJ is judged true, half the=
 
>Gremlins in Bville wink out of existence."
>      "The half created by me, the Voice, and Wonko, that is."
>      "Yes, sir."
>      "All right, I?ll get right on it. Have Andre meet me in the
>conference 
>room."
>      "Yes, sir."
>      15 minutes later, Andre, legal council to Baron von Skippy, met er 
>employer for an emergency meeting.
>      "Well, Andre, what do you have for me?"
>      "Baron, it doesn?t look good. Any Judge in eir right mind would have=
 
>to decide TRUE for this one."
>      "I thought I had saved Copper by making him Idol-compliant," the
>Baron 
>muttered angrily. "So, what hoops must I jump through to save him now?"
>      "Well, Baron, I?ve been looking at the ruleset, and I think I?ve
>found 
>the solution." The Baron grimaced slightly at the memory of that failed 
>proposal and attempt at haiku. "Oh, sorry, sir. Anyway, here it is."
>]]
>
>Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293.
>
>[[
>      "That's it?"
>      "Well, sir, that's the trouble part, the part that reads 'Any rule 
>which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also amend
>this 
>rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the Idol.' 
>Without it, this problem disappears."
>      "But without it, how will Gremlins be Idol-compliant?"
>      "It will be assumed that the holder of the Idol is immune to all 
>effects of that Gremlin, unless the effects have been specified by an 
>amendment to Rule 293. Such amendments will be at the creator's
>discretion."
>      "Can it actually work?"
>      "Oh, yes, sir, and it clears up this major problem. If we send it
>off 
>soon enough, we can save Copper this nweek, a nice side bonus."
>      The Baron leaned back, a smile spreading across his face. "Good
>work, 
>Andre. Fire it off, and we'll see if we can?t resolve this little problem 
>before it erupts into another wave of riots."
>      Andre did so, and left the room and BvS looking pensively out of the=
 
>conference room's windows at Bville outside.
>WILLTHISTORTURENEVEREND
>
>I need a drink... Oh, wait, I'm holding one. I drink my beer.
>
>                                              Bottoms up,
>                                                 BvS

Ya know...Notepad doethn't give thith kind of grief...:)

						Glotmorf

(I'm thtarting to worry...typing in lithpth ith thtarting to feel=
 natural...)

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:48:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: spammit spammit spammit!
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The database is still being a little wonky, presumably because p505 is
big and confusing.

Anyway, right now it doesn't have a p505/2 (it and 505/4 are identical,
but it doesn't seem to want to keep them both around for some reason). Or
maybe it's the other way around. I don't know, and I just don't have time
to fix it just now.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: No search and seizure without a warrant
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 10:04:49 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 >Gah. I missed some things. This is almost comical. It's late, I'm not
 >functioning... Replace the previous amendment to the amendment to my
 >proposal for this nweek with the following
 >WILLTHISTORTURENEVEREND-delimited
 >text:
 >
 >WILLTHISTORTURENEVEREND
 >      A few days pass...
 >      "Wonko CFJ?d? You can?t be serious!"
 >      "It?s all over the news, Baron. If this CFJ is judged true, half the
 >Gremlins in Bville wink out of existence."
 >      "The half created by me, the Voice, and Wonko, that is."
 >      "Yes, sir."
 >      "All right, I?ll get right on it. Have Andre meet me in the
 >conference
 >room."
 >      "Yes, sir."
 >      15 minutes later, Andre, legal council to Baron von Skippy, met er
 >employer for an emergency meeting.
 >      "Well, Andre, what do you have for me?"
 >      "Baron, it doesn?t look good. Any Judge in eir right mind would have
 >to decide TRUE for this one."
 >      "I thought I had saved Copper by making him Idol-compliant," the
 >Baron
 >muttered angrily. "So, what hoops must I jump through to save him now?"
 >      "Well, Baron, I?ve been looking at the ruleset, and I think I?ve
 >found
 >the solution." The Baron grimaced slightly at the memory of that failed
 >proposal and attempt at haiku. "Oh, sorry, sir. Anyway, here it is."
 >]]
 >
 >Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293.
 >
 >[[
 >      "That's it?"
 >      "Well, sir, that's the trouble part, the part that reads 'Any rule
 >which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also amend
 >this
 >rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the Idol.'
 >Without it, this problem disappears."
 >      "But without it, how will Gremlins be Idol-compliant?"
 >      "It will be assumed that the holder of the Idol is immune to all
 >effects of that Gremlin, unless the effects have been specified by an
 >amendment to Rule 293. Such amendments will be at the creator's
 >discretion."
 >      "Can it actually work?"
 >      "Oh, yes, sir, and it clears up this major problem. If we send it
 >off
 >soon enough, we can save Copper this nweek, a nice side bonus."
 >      The Baron leaned back, a smile spreading across his face. "Good
 >work,
 >Andre. Fire it off, and we'll see if we can?t resolve this little problem
 >before it erupts into another wave of riots."
 >      Andre did so, and left the room and BvS looking pensively out of the
 >conference room's windows at Bville outside.
 >WILLTHISTORTURENEVEREND
 >
 >I need a drink... Oh, wait, I'm holding one. I drink my beer.
 >
 >                                              Bottoms up,
 >                                                 BvS

Ya know...Notepad doethn't give thith kind of grief...:)
-Yes, but Notepad doesn't tell me how long my piece of writing is. That's 
what I was trying to keep an eye on... *sigh* Can everyone handle it if I 
just say pretend any out-of-place question marks are apostrophes? I think 
that's all ther is wrong at this point. If not, what's the fifth amendment?-

						Glotmorf

(I'm thtarting to worry...typing in lithpth ith thtarting to feel 
natural...)

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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:11:31 -0500
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The right to not incriminate oneself
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> All right, this is the final time I'm doing this. Glotmorf, thank you for
> your Notepad suggestion. That's all it took. Last time I try to edit
> punctuation at 11:30...
> 
> Replace the entirety of Proposal 524 with the following ONCOMINGTRAIN
> delimited text:
> 
> ONCOMINGTRAIN
> {__If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving is Not For You__
> 
> [[
> Copper sat at er shiny new desk, awaiting er first assignment in the
> now relatively peaceful post-riot Bville. However, despite alcohol
> consumption in the city skyrocketing in the past week, peace still reigned.
> Perhaps, e thought, it was the very prospect of er wrath that was keping the
> peace. Yes, surely that was it. E put er feet up on the desk, content that
> existing was all that was needed in this job. A sudden knock on the door
> interrupted er reverie.
> "Come in."
> Two male players entered. The leading one had a faint aura about him
> of almost intangible power, and a smug look about his face. Copper
> recognized em as The Voice, one of the leading players in Bville. The second
> player wore an emblem on his tunic, a crowned squirrel set on a cross, and a
> worried look on his face.
> "Baron! What a pleasant surprise!" Copper greeted er creator happily.
> "And your Voiceness," his tone changing to worry at the look on BvS's face,
> "what brings you here today? Not another riot, I hope?"
> "Go ahead, Baron," The Voice said, with the air of a great orator, and
> the voice to match, "Tell him."
> "Copper, he's subpoenaed us."
> "What?"
> "And Wonko. Apparently, you're not Idol-compliant. Nobody knows what
> effect you'll have on the Immunity Idol, so /he/," jerking a thumb at The
> Voice, who was looking around the office with a faint sneer on his face,
> "wants you and Guido liquidated."
> "Liquidated, my good Baron? Hardly. They don't exist. The laws of the
> Nomiverse say that they cannot exist. Once the courts recognize this, they
> will return to where they came from." With this, The Voice pulled a sheet
> out of his robe, presenting it to Copper. "A petition to have your existence
> invalidated."
> "But there's only one signature on this, yours! How is this a
> petition?"
> "Baron, can't you create intelligent Gremlins? Never mind, I suppose
> you'll get it eventually. Just keep trying to propose things. Gremlin, it
> only takes one to CFJ. Now then, as you can see, since the rule that created
> you did not edit R293, you can't exist."
> "Baron, isn't there anything you can do?" Copper asked plaintively. "I
> don't want to not exist!"
> The Baron suddenly looked thoughtful. "Voice, give me that CFJ a
> second?" He read it over once or twice, then spoke with renewed hope. "Well,
> it seems there is really only that one problem. Copper, would you take this
> down and send it off to the Admin?"
> ]]
> 
> Add the following k:-O delimited text to the end of the list in Rule 293:
> k:-O
> 10) May NOT be apprehended by the Police Gremlin, unless eir BAC is greater
> than or equal to 5, in which event they are still apprehended, but no points
> are taken from em.
> k:-O
> 
> [[
> A flicker of surprise shot over The Voice's features, but was soon
> suppressed, and the old smug look came back. "Good, Baron. You are getting
> better at this yet, but you have forgotten something important. If this CFJ
> is judged before voting ends, your original rule will not exist."
> The Baron's surprise was not as well contained as The Voice's. "I just
> fixed the problem, Voice! What more do you want from me?"
> BvS was spared the Voice's answer by Copper's secretary entering the
> room. E looked briefly at the players standing there, glaring knives at each
> other, and placed a copy of the Friday Morning Daily Recognizer on Copper's
> desk and walked out. Copper looked at the two players, who, having recovered
> from the interruption, were having a heated argument. He wondered if it
> might be simpler to arrest The Voice for causing a disturbance, but then his
> eye fell on one of the headlines.
> "Baron?" e called.
> BvS turned. "What?"
> "You might want to look at this."
> Baron von Skippy read the proffered paper. "Proposals, CFJs? oh, it's
> this CFJ. Let's see?" E read for a few seconds, then looked up at The Voice
> with a fire in his eyes. E cleared his throat and read the article. "'The
> Admin today announced that the CFJ brought forth by The Voice against Baron
> von Skippy and Wonko is illegal under the rules because it names more than
> one player as Defendant.' Well, Voice, I do believe that concludes our
> business here."
> "What? That's impossible."
> "I'm afraid it's not just possible, it's happened. Now, please leave."
> "This isn't over, Baron! I'll CFJ you and Wonko separately!  The
> people must know of your violation of the laws!"
> "Copper, kindly show this gentleman the door."
> After The Voice had been removed from the building, BvS and Copper
> held an emergency meeting.
> "I have a plan, Copper. E'll CFJ again, but we can protect ourselves.
> You won't cease existing if I can help it. I wrote this up while you were
> dragging em out into the street:
> ]]
> 
> If Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset, create a new rule with the
> following +0:-) delimited text:
> 
> +0:-)
> There exists a Gremlin known as the Police Gremlin, or Copper. If Beer Cans
> exist, and one is thrown, and Copper is within one space of the person who
> threw it before it hits, Copper apprehends the player who threw the can.
> 
> When Copper apprehends a player for throwing a Beer Can, Copper takes 1dN
> points from that player, where N is ((the thrower's BAC + 1)(the number of
> times the thrower has been apprehended before + 1))/(that player's Respect +
> 1), rounded up, and gives half that number of points, rounded up, to the
> Gremlin Fund, and half that number of points, rounded down, to the player
> who was hit with the Beer Can.
> 
> Any player may, at any time, any number of times per nweek, move Copper one
> space in any direction by paying 1 point/space.
> 
> If Copper does not apprehend any players for 2 nweeks, e goes into Hiding.
> If a Beer Can is thrown, and e is in Hiding, e comes out of Hiding.
> +0:-)
> 
> [[
> "But that's the original rule!"
> "Yes, but this time the R293 problem has been fixed. However, if the
> original rule is deleted, it'll need to be reinstated to make the R293
> revision you sent in earlier do anything."
> "I see."
> "Well, I must be going. Good luck, Copper."
> "Goodbye, Baron, and thank you."
> 
> A few days pass...
> "Wonko CFJ'd? You can't be serious!"
> "It's all over the news, Baron. If this CFJ is judged true, half the
> Gremlins in Bville wink out of existence."
> "The half created by me, the Voice, and Wonko, that is."
> "Yes, sir."
> "All right, I'll get right on it. Have Andre meet me in the conference
> room."
> "Yes, sir."
> 15 minutes later, Andre, legal council to Baron von Skippy, met er
> employer for an emergency meeting.
> "Well, Andre, what do you have for me?"
> "Baron, it doesn't look good. Any Judge in eir right mind would have
> to decide TRUE for this one."
> "I thought I had saved Copper by making him Idol-compliant," the Baron
> muttered angrily. "So, what hoops must I jump through to save him now?"
> "Well, Baron, I've been looking at the ruleset, and I think I've found
> the solution." The Baron grimaced slightly at the memory of that failed
> proposal and attempt at haiku. "Oh, sorry, sir. Anyway, here it is."
> ]]
> 
> Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293.
> 
> [[
> "That's it?"
> "Well, sir, that's the trouble part, the part that reads 'Any rule
> which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also amend this
> rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the Idol.'
> Without it, this problem disappears."
> "But without it, how will Gremlins be Idol-compliant?"
> "It will be assumed that the holder of the Idol is immune to all
> effects of that Gremlin, unless the effects have been specified by an
> amendment to Rule 293. Such amendments will be at the creator's discretion."
> "Can it actually work?"
> "Oh, yes, sir, and it clears up this major problem. If we send it off
> soon enough, we can save Copper this nweek, a nice side bonus."
> The Baron leaned back, a smile spreading across his face. "Good work,
> Andre. Fire it off, and we'll see if we can't resolve this little problem
> before it erupts into another wave of riots."
> Andre did so, and left the room and BvS looking pensively out of the
> conference room's windows at Bville outside.
> 
> ]] }
> 
> Let that be the end of it.

Um... but now you've got the "if Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset"
bit again...

Also, I think this will still end up with Copper being illegal - the rule
will be enacted, but because the *rule* doesn't amend the Idol rule, it'll
be illegal, and *then* the stupid sentence that made it illegal will be
erased. But Copper will have been illegal at the time of its creation, and
so will be not.

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:45:14 -0500
From: "Glotmorf" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: And Bean's proposal goes *crunch*
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On 3/30/02 at 6:42 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:

>Well, the bad news is that Glotmorf's reorg of Football crushes the 
>tele-tackle fix.  The good news is that I have one more proposal this
>week, 
>and I can fix the loophole int he roster rules that Glotmorf just pointed 
>out. (Note that the Voter Colonel was proposed last nweek)
>
>{{
>__Fixing Football (reprise)__
>
>Revise rule 394 in the folllowing manner:
>
>- Replace the text: "The player making the tackle immediately moves to the=
 
>same location as the player being tackled." with the text "The player 
>making the tackle immediately moves to a random, vacant location adjacent 
>to the player being tackled (within one unit, measured by Cartesian 
>metric). If no such location exists, the tackling player is immediately 
>placed into Limbo."

I like thith...though it'th pothible that a thlot occupied by a player that=
 geth knocked into Limbo may be taken by another player joining the game,=
 tho the Limbo'd player might not be able to get back into the thame team.=
  On the other hand, that addth an interethting dynamic.

>- Replace the text: "After removing eir name from a player roster" with
>the 
>text "After eir name is removed from a player roster"

Aw.  I wath counting on that. :)

>}}
>
>Revise proposal 511 to read:
>{{
>__Vote yes on this, it's a no-op__
>
>All points gained by this proposal's proponent for it's passage are given 
>to the Gremlin Fund.
>
>Bean's charm decreases by one.
>}}

Perhapth thith could have been a rethpect propothal inthtead, thinth the=
 failure of one of thothe doethn't cotht you.  Thtill, if you want uth to=
 vote in favor of you lothing Charm...

						Glotmorf

From: "Alex Truelsen" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The right to not incriminate oneself
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 14:28:08 -0500
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The right to not incriminate 
oneself
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:11:31 -0500

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

 > All right, this is the final time I'm doing this. Glotmorf, thank you for
 > your Notepad suggestion. That's all it took. Last time I try to edit
 > punctuation at 11:30...
 >
 > Replace the entirety of Proposal 524 with the following ONCOMINGTRAIN
 > delimited text:
 >
 > ONCOMINGTRAIN
 > {__If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving is Not For You__
 >
 > [[
 > Copper sat at er shiny new desk, awaiting er first assignment in the
 > now relatively peaceful post-riot Bville. However, despite alcohol
 > consumption in the city skyrocketing in the past week, peace still 
reigned.
 > Perhaps, e thought, it was the very prospect of er wrath that was keping 
the
 > peace. Yes, surely that was it. E put er feet up on the desk, content 
that
 > existing was all that was needed in this job. A sudden knock on the door
 > interrupted er reverie.
 > "Come in."
 > Two male players entered. The leading one had a faint aura about him
 > of almost intangible power, and a smug look about his face. Copper
 > recognized em as The Voice, one of the leading players in Bville. The 
second
 > player wore an emblem on his tunic, a crowned squirrel set on a cross, 
and a
 > worried look on his face.
 > "Baron! What a pleasant surprise!" Copper greeted er creator happily.
 > "And your Voiceness," his tone changing to worry at the look on BvS's 
face,
 > "what brings you here today? Not another riot, I hope?"
 > "Go ahead, Baron," The Voice said, with the air of a great orator, and
 > the voice to match, "Tell him."
 > "Copper, he's subpoenaed us."
 > "What?"
 > "And Wonko. Apparently, you're not Idol-compliant. Nobody knows what
 > effect you'll have on the Immunity Idol, so /he/," jerking a thumb at The
 > Voice, who was looking around the office with a faint sneer on his face,
 > "wants you and Guido liquidated."
 > "Liquidated, my good Baron? Hardly. They don't exist. The laws of the
 > Nomiverse say that they cannot exist. Once the courts recognize this, 
they
 > will return to where they came from." With this, The Voice pulled a sheet
 > out of his robe, presenting it to Copper. "A petition to have your 
existence
 > invalidated."
 > "But there's only one signature on this, yours! How is this a
 > petition?"
 > "Baron, can't you create intelligent Gremlins? Never mind, I suppose
 > you'll get it eventually. Just keep trying to propose things. Gremlin, it
 > only takes one to CFJ. Now then, as you can see, since the rule that 
created
 > you did not edit R293, you can't exist."
 > "Baron, isn't there anything you can do?" Copper asked plaintively. "I
 > don't want to not exist!"
 > The Baron suddenly looked thoughtful. "Voice, give me that CFJ a
 > second?" He read it over once or twice, then spoke with renewed hope. 
"Well,
 > it seems there is really only that one problem. Copper, would you take 
this
 > down and send it off to the Admin?"
 > ]]
 >
 > Add the following k:-O delimited text to the end of the list in Rule 293:
 > k:-O
 > 10) May NOT be apprehended by the Police Gremlin, unless eir BAC is 
greater
 > than or equal to 5, in which event they are still apprehended, but no 
points
 > are taken from em.
 > k:-O
 >
 > [[
 > A flicker of surprise shot over The Voice's features, but was soon
 > suppressed, and the old smug look came back. "Good, Baron. You are 
getting
 > better at this yet, but you have forgotten something important. If this 
CFJ
 > is judged before voting ends, your original rule will not exist."
 > The Baron's surprise was not as well contained as The Voice's. "I just
 > fixed the problem, Voice! What more do you want from me?"
 > BvS was spared the Voice's answer by Copper's secretary entering the
 > room. E looked briefly at the players standing there, glaring knives at 
each
 > other, and placed a copy of the Friday Morning Daily Recognizer on 
Copper's
 > desk and walked out. Copper looked at the two players, who, having 
recovered
 > from the interruption, were having a heated argument. He wondered if it
 > might be simpler to arrest The Voice for causing a disturbance, but then 
his
 > eye fell on one of the headlines.
 > "Baron?" e called.
 > BvS turned. "What?"
 > "You might want to look at this."
 > Baron von Skippy read the proffered paper. "Proposals, CFJs? oh, it's
 > this CFJ. Let's see?" E read for a few seconds, then looked up at The 
Voice
 > with a fire in his eyes. E cleared his throat and read the article. "'The
 > Admin today announced that the CFJ brought forth by The Voice against 
Baron
 > von Skippy and Wonko is illegal under the rules because it names more 
than
 > one player as Defendant.' Well, Voice, I do believe that concludes our
 > business here."
 > "What? That's impossible."
 > "I'm afraid it's not just possible, it's happened. Now, please leave."
 > "This isn't over, Baron! I'll CFJ you and Wonko separately!  The
 > people must know of your violation of the laws!"
 > "Copper, kindly show this gentleman the door."
 > After The Voice had been removed from the building, BvS and Copper
 > held an emergency meeting.
 > "I have a plan, Copper. E'll CFJ again, but we can protect ourselves.
 > You won't cease existing if I can help it. I wrote this up while you were
 > dragging em out into the street:
 > ]]
 >
 > If Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset, create a new rule with the
 > following +0:-) delimited text:
 >
 > +0:-)
 > There exists a Gremlin known as the Police Gremlin, or Copper. If Beer 
Cans
 > exist, and one is thrown, and Copper is within one space of the person 
who
 > threw it before it hits, Copper apprehends the player who threw the can.
 >
 > When Copper apprehends a player for throwing a Beer Can, Copper takes 1dN
 > points from that player, where N is ((the thrower's BAC + 1)(the number 
of
 > times the thrower has been apprehended before + 1))/(that player's 
Respect +
 > 1), rounded up, and gives half that number of points, rounded up, to the
 > Gremlin Fund, and half that number of points, rounded down, to the player
 > who was hit with the Beer Can.
 >
 > Any player may, at any time, any number of times per nweek, move Copper 
one
 > space in any direction by paying 1 point/space.
 >
 > If Copper does not apprehend any players for 2 nweeks, e goes into 
Hiding.
 > If a Beer Can is thrown, and e is in Hiding, e comes out of Hiding.
 > +0:-)
 >
 > [[
 > "But that's the original rule!"
 > "Yes, but this time the R293 problem has been fixed. However, if the
 > original rule is deleted, it'll need to be reinstated to make the R293
 > revision you sent in earlier do anything."
 > "I see."
 > "Well, I must be going. Good luck, Copper."
 > "Goodbye, Baron, and thank you."
 >
 > A few days pass...
 > "Wonko CFJ'd? You can't be serious!"
 > "It's all over the news, Baron. If this CFJ is judged true, half the
 > Gremlins in Bville wink out of existence."
 > "The half created by me, the Voice, and Wonko, that is."
 > "Yes, sir."
 > "All right, I'll get right on it. Have Andre meet me in the conference
 > room."
 > "Yes, sir."
 > 15 minutes later, Andre, legal council to Baron von Skippy, met er
 > employer for an emergency meeting.
 > "Well, Andre, what do you have for me?"
 > "Baron, it doesn't look good. Any Judge in eir right mind would have
 > to decide TRUE for this one."
 > "I thought I had saved Copper by making him Idol-compliant," the Baron
 > muttered angrily. "So, what hoops must I jump through to save him now?"
 > "Well, Baron, I've been looking at the ruleset, and I think I've found
 > the solution." The Baron grimaced slightly at the memory of that failed
 > proposal and attempt at haiku. "Oh, sorry, sir. Anyway, here it is."
 > ]]
 >
 > Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293.
 >
 > [[
 > "That's it?"
 > "Well, sir, that's the trouble part, the part that reads 'Any rule
 > which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also amend 
this
 > rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the Idol.'
 > Without it, this problem disappears."
 > "But without it, how will Gremlins be Idol-compliant?"
 > "It will be assumed that the holder of the Idol is immune to all
 > effects of that Gremlin, unless the effects have been specified by an
 > amendment to Rule 293. Such amendments will be at the creator's 
discretion."
 > "Can it actually work?"
 > "Oh, yes, sir, and it clears up this major problem. If we send it off
 > soon enough, we can save Copper this nweek, a nice side bonus."
 > The Baron leaned back, a smile spreading across his face. "Good work,
 > Andre. Fire it off, and we'll see if we can't resolve this little problem
 > before it erupts into another wave of riots."
 > Andre did so, and left the room and BvS looking pensively out of the
 > conference room's windows at Bville outside.
 >
 > ]] }
 >
 > Let that be the end of it.

Um... but now you've got the "if Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset"
bit again...
-*slaps head* The light at the end of tunnel... sometimes, it is an 
ONCOMINGTRAIN... Right, because I never edited the file this was saved as. 
Can we pretend that I made the right changes? Please? I'm thouroughly sick 
of this. As in, assume all I actually changed were various punctuation bits, 
so the workings of the proposal never changed?-

Also, I think this will still end up with Copper being illegal - the rule 
will be enacted, but because the *rule* doesn't amend the Idol rule, it'll 
be illegal, and *then* the stupid sentence that made it illegal will be 
erased. But Copper will have been illegal at the time of its creation, and 
so will be not.
-Okay. Tonight, I'll fix this whole damn thing. Deus ex Machina! And what's 
the sixth amendment?-

--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
     - Will Rogers

The letters in
"To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in the mind to 
suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
can be rearranged to spell
"In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet, 
queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten."

I don't think I want to play whoever came up with this in Scrabble..

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 15:12:58 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The right to not
	incriminate oneself
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> 
> 
> 
> From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Subject: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The right to not incriminate
> oneself
> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:11:31 -0500
> 
> Quoth Alex Truelsen,
> 
>> All right, this is the final time I'm doing this. Glotmorf, thank you for
>> your Notepad suggestion. That's all it took. Last time I try to edit
>> punctuation at 11:30...
>> 
>> Replace the entirety of Proposal 524 with the following ONCOMINGTRAIN
>> delimited text:
>> 
>> ONCOMINGTRAIN
>> {__If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving is Not For You__
>> 
>> }
>> 
>> Let that be the end of it.

By the way, you need a closing ONCOMINGTRAIN somewhere... Right now the prop
ends with

"
Let that be the end of it.

                                               BvS

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
"

> Um... but now you've got the "if Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset"
> bit again...
> -*slaps head* The light at the end of tunnel... sometimes, it is an
> ONCOMINGTRAIN... Right, because I never edited the file this was saved as.
> Can we pretend that I made the right changes? Please? I'm thouroughly sick
> of this. As in, assume all I actually changed were various punctuation bits,
> so the workings of the proposal never changed?-
> 
> Also, I think this will still end up with Copper being illegal - the rule
> will be enacted, but because the *rule* doesn't amend the Idol rule, it'll
> be illegal, and *then* the stupid sentence that made it illegal will be
> erased. But Copper will have been illegal at the time of its creation, and
> so will be not.
> -Okay. Tonight, I'll fix this whole damn thing. Deus ex Machina! And what's
> the sixth amendment?-

Something about trial by peers, isn't it?

BTW, whatever happened to the First Amendment?
> 
> 
> The letters in
> "To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in the mind to
> suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
> can be rearranged to spell
> "In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet,
> queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten."
> 

The letters in DORMITORY can be rearranged to spell DIRTY ROOM.

--Wonko

A thief broke into the local police station and stole all the lavatory
equipment.  A spokesperson was quoted as saying,  "We have absolutely
nothing to go on."

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 15:14:27 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: spammit spammit spammit!
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> The database is still being a little wonky, presumably because p505 is
> big and confusing.
> 
> Anyway, right now it doesn't have a p505/2 (it and 505/4 are identical,
> but it doesn't seem to want to keep them both around for some reason). Or
> maybe it's the other way around. I don't know, and I just don't have time
> to fix it just now.
> 
> ...dave
> 
> 
> 
> ---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
> http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
> http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/
> 
> "There is so much randomness in the world that it's
> a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM
> 
Sorry, is there anything I can do to 505 that will make the base like it?

--Wonko

"In the end, everything is a gag. "
- Charlie Chaplin

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:07:31 +0000 (GMT)
From: "David E. Smith" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: spoon-discuss: still working...
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Fortunately, I'm not legally obliged to have the ballot ready 'til this
time tomorrow.

A few things have been added to the database; the full set of formal
recognitions will go out (hopefully) later tonight.

...dave

---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/

"There is so much randomness in the world that it's
a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:51:10 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Eric Gerlach <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: And Bean's proposal
  goes *crunch*
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

At 11:45 AM 2002-03-31 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/30/02 at 6:42 PM Eric Gerlach wrote:
>
> >Well, the bad news is that Glotmorf's reorg of Football crushes the
> >tele-tackle fix.  The good news is that I have one more proposal this
> >week,
> >and I can fix the loophole int he roster rules that Glotmorf just pointed
> >out. (Note that the Voter Colonel was proposed last nweek)
> >
> >{{
> >__Fixing Football (reprise)__
> >
> >Revise rule 394 in the folllowing manner:
> >
> >- Replace the text: "The player making the tackle immediately moves to the
> >same location as the player being tackled." with the text "The player
> >making the tackle immediately moves to a random, vacant location adjacent
> >to the player being tackled (within one unit, measured by Cartesian
> >metric). If no such location exists, the tackling player is immediately
> >placed into Limbo."
>
>I like thith...though it'th pothible that a thlot occupied by a player 
>that geth knocked into Limbo may be taken by another player joining the 
>game, tho the Limbo'd player might not be able to get back into the thame 
>team.  On the other hand, that addth an interethting dynamic.

I'm glad this version seems to please at least one :) Hopefully we'll be 
able to get this game going.... I had a plan to stop the continuous 
tackling... though it looks like the Voice is gonna make a getaway.

> >- Replace the text: "After removing eir name from a player roster" with
> >the
> >text "After eir name is removed from a player roster"
>
>Aw.  I wath counting on that. :)

Well, by fixing the rule I acknowledge the bug, and so it looks like you 
might get your wish this time.

> >}}
> >
> >Revise proposal 511 to read:
> >{{
> >__Vote yes on this, it's a no-op__
> >
> >All points gained by this proposal's proponent for it's passage are given
> >to the Gremlin Fund.
> >
> >Bean's charm decreases by one.
> >}}
>
>Perhapth thith could have been a rethpect propothal inthtead, thinth the 
>failure of one of thothe doethn't cotht you.  Thtill, if you want uth to 
>vote in favor of you lothing Charm...

Ah but Glotmorf, I am a cool, calculating man... I should gain one charm 
for the passage of the proposal, should I not?

Bean

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:16:43 -0500
Subject: Re: spoon-discuss: still working...
From: Wonko <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Blobman: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Quoth David E. Smith,

> Fortunately, I'm not legally obliged to have the ballot ready 'til this
> time tomorrow.
> 
> A few things have been added to the database; the full set of formal
> recognitions will go out (hopefully) later tonight.
> 
> ...dave
> 
> 
> ---- David E. Smith, POB 515045, St. Louis MO 63151
> http://www.technopagan.org/    http://metadave.net/
> http://www.bureau42.com/       http://whatIsay.com/
> 
> "There is so much randomness in the world that it's
> a dice roll whether I'm happy or depressed." - TMCM
> 
Wow. Is the proposing period over already? How time flies...

--Wonko

"I would have made a good Pope. "
- Richard M. Nixon