From oloros@b... Fri Jun 16 14:14:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26234 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 21:14:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 21:14:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c0mailgw09.prontomail.com) (216.163.180.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 21:14:33 -0000 Received: from c6web102 (216.163.178.10) by c0mailgw09.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 3946D62500034C7B for Socialnomic-DML@e...; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:14:30 -0700 X-Version: eb 6.0.2329.0 Message-Id: <3238BFD02B344D115AF40005B8CC1278@o...> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:16:27 -0700 X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: Socialnomic-DML@e... Subject: a slew of mailing list info X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Oloros the Blue" ---- Begin Included Message ---- From: Xylen Sent: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:01:03 -0600 To: "Oloros", "GT", "TopHeavy" Subject: A slew of mailing list info As you all have noticed by now, the game of Socialnomic is alive with four mailing lists. Just ignore the stuff for communomic. I had that set up all wrong. All I have done is just start the groups so far. The info for each list, and all of the other stuff still needs to be set up. Go forth and have fun. =A0:) Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. ---- End Included Message ---- oloros@b... Get your Free Email at http://www.britannica.com From oloros@b... Fri Jun 16 14:19:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11283 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 21:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 21:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mr.egroups.com) (10.1.1.37) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 21:19:46 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.94] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jun 2000 21:19:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:37 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: re: settings up Message-ID: <8ie5l9+pqmv@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2116 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" Salutations to All and Sundry. I have edited the descriptions of the 4 mailing lists to appropriately describe their functions. Those provisional descriptions follow, please suggest whatever changes seem necessary: Socialnomic-DML The Discussion Mailing List for Socialnomic, an Unmoderated Nomic. This list is to be used for discussion and game-related musings (and the occasional, well-justified, flame). Nothing posted to the Discussion Mailing List should have any effect on the Nomic. If you are interested in joining Socialnomic, please post an announcement of your interest on this list, and subscribe to the following: Socialnomic-DML The Discussion Mailing List Socialnomic-RULES The Ruleset Mailing List Socialnomic-AML The Actions Mailing List Socialnomic-VML The Voting Mailing List Socialnomic-AML The Actions Mailing List for Socialnomic, an Unmoderated Nomic. This list is used only for actions specified by the Ruleset that do not require Players to Vote. Examples include, but are not limited to: Announcement of Proposal Reminder of Proposal Announcement of Accusation Reminder of Accusation Announcement of Adoption other actions specified by the Ruleset If you are interested in subscribing to this list, please see the Discussion Mailing List for more information on joining Socialnomic. Socialnomic-VML The Voting Mailing List for Socialnomic, an Unmoderated Nomic. This list is limited to actions that require Players to Vote. Examples include, but are not limited to: Proposal Accusation Voting If you are interested in subscribing to this list, please see the Discussion Mailing List for more information on joining Socialnomic. Socialnomic-RULES The Ruleset Mailing List for Socialnomic, an Unmoderated Nomic. This list is limited to posts of enacted and amended Rules. The contents of the list represent the Current Ruleset. If you are interested in subscribing to this list, please see the Discussion Mailing List for more information on joining Socialnomic. -Oloros From mctupper@h... Fri Jun 16 14:27:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30949 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 21:27:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 21:27:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 21:27:57 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10948 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:27:56 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA82364 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:27:56 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] re: settings up Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:23:52 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8ie5l9+pqmv@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ie5l9+pqmv@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061615265802.03054@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, you wrote: > Salutations to All and Sundry. > > I have edited the descriptions of the 4 mailing > lists to appropriately describe their functions. > Those provisional descriptions follow, please > suggest whatever changes seem necessary: Since the pertinent information looked good to me, I have modified the ruleset to include the mailing list info. I also included the Escape Hatch in the defintions and removed the "do whatever you want if there are no rules against it" from the ruleset. The ruleset has been posted to the RULE list. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Fri Jun 16 14:30:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29896 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 21:30:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 21:30:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ml.egroups.com) (10.1.1.31) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 21:30:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.93] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jun 2000 22:30:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:28:36 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: settings up Message-ID: <8ie664+7vhg@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ie5l9+pqmv@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1242 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, "Oloros the Blue" wrote: > > Socialnomic-AML > The Actions Mailing List for Socialnomic, an Unmoderated Nomic. > This list is used only for actions specified by the Ruleset that > do not require Players to Vote. > Examples include, but are not limited to: > Announcement of Proposal > Reminder of Proposal > Announcement of Accusation > Reminder of Accusation > Announcement of Adoption > other actions specified by the Ruleset > Xylen had previously written: > I agree that reminders may be necessary, but I don't want to > see a dozen messages today, tommorow and the next day > advertising a proposal up for vote. On the OAML we could have > an announcement of a prop up for vote, but any reminders should > be on the DML. I see that list as being the busiest and hopefully, > most read list. Players will almost have to check that one every > day, so a reminder would be better there. > and I seem to have ignored it. So I am removing the "Reminder of .." items from the description of the Socialnomic-AML and will not mention them on the Socialnomic-DML. And later this afternoon I'll have a stern conversation with myself regarding this inattentiveness. -Oloros the Blue From mctupper@h... Fri Jun 16 14:39:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19338 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 21:39:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 21:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 21:39:35 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA62312 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:39:35 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA74592 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:39:34 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: settings up Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:33:52 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8ie664+7vhg@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ie664+7vhg@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061615383604.03054@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, you wrote: > So I am removing the "Reminder of .." items from the description of > the Socialnomic-AML and will not mention them on the Socialnomic-DML. > And later this afternoon I'll have a stern conversation with myself > regarding this inattentiveness. And then I proceded to blindly copy your descriptions. However, the rules say "Examples include, but are not limited to:" so I think I will just leave it in for now. All of us know what we mean, and that sort of fiddling would be good for a proposal. My first proposal will probaly be to strike those items from the OAML. Nice to have something to look forward to. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Fri Jun 16 14:46:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8136 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 21:46:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 21:46:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ho.egroups.com) (10.1.2.219) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 21:46:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.97] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jun 2000 21:46:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:46:52 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: meta-settings Message-ID: <8ie78c+t5nd@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 647 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" That big yellow "Unsubscribe Author" button is looking attractive, and it's nice to have some reminder of my not-so temporal powers, but the listings along the left-hand navig column under Messages/Pending and Members/Bouncing ~/Pending pique my interest too. So far, those of us posing are Moderators, and our postings are going through, but these areas and the check-box "Approve messages" in the Member Settings suggest that the Moderators might be set up to vote on any outside message reaching the list. Ideally that function would be deleted and the administration of the list be done solely through the Owner account. -Oloros From mctupper@h... Fri Jun 16 15:03:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17307 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 22:03:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 22:03:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 22:03:34 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA62238 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:03:33 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA75302 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:03:33 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] meta-settings Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:57:00 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8ie78c+t5nd@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ie78c+t5nd@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061616023505.03054@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, you wrote: > That big yellow "Unsubscribe Author" button is looking attractive, Aw gee, I don't have that. The Linux version of Netscape handles some images a bit differently. > and it's nice to have some reminder of my not-so temporal powers, but > the listings along the left-hand navig column under Messages/Pending > and Members/Bouncing ~/Pending pique my interest too. Those links are for messages that have not yet been delivered. Occasionaly egoups takes an entire minute to deliver a message, so the Pending link shows the ones no sent yet. Bouncing is for those messages that are being bounced back due to a bad email addy. If someone complains that they aren't getting any messages, we can check the Bouncing link to see if there is a delivery problem. > So far, those > of us posing are Moderators, and our postings are going through, but > these areas and the check-box "Approve messages" in the Member > Settings suggest that the Moderators might be set up to vote on any > outside message reaching the list. Ideally that function would be > deleted and the administration of the list be done solely through the > Owner account. Hmm, I'll look into that. I think the owner can decided whether or not a moderator can do some things. I just give moderators all abilities, but I think I'll go back in and see what can be done. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Fri Jun 16 15:12:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 505 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 22:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 22:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hn.egroups.com) (10.1.2.221) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 22:12:03 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.67] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jun 2000 22:12:03 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:12:00 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: meta-settings Message-ID: <8ie8ng+6jkk@e...> In-Reply-To: <00061616023505.03054@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 632 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" That sounds reasonable, I suppose, except the bit about "an entire minute". -Oloros --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Xylen wrote: > > the listings along the left-hand navig column under > > Messages/Pending > > > Those links are for messages that have not yet been delivered. > Occasionaly egoups takes an entire minute to deliver a message, > so the Pending link shows the ones no sent yet. Bouncing is for > those messages that are being bounced back due to a bad email > addy. If someone complains that they aren't getting any messages, > we can check the Bouncing link to see if there is a delivery > problem. > From mctupper@h... Fri Jun 16 15:49:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8922 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 22:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 22:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta2 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 22:49:58 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA50368 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:49:58 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA57356 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:49:57 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Loss of moderation Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:38:51 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061616490006.03054@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen Having the four of us as moderators is handy for setting things up, but as Oloros has metnioned, the power can go to a person's head. I think we should leave the moderators in place for the weekend, to allow everyone to make tweaks and fixes easily from their own egroups account. Then we can go in, and remove the moderator status. That way, only the owner can make any future changes. It's not a perfect system, because any of us can do things as owner, and if things get real nasty I am the only one who can get the new password for the owner's mailing addy. But I think the extra trouble of having to login as the owner, with a differnt password from the normal egroups password will make things a bit harder for a militant takeover of the game. At some point security has to stop, and we have to trust people. Besides, if all else fails, the dissidents can always start another nomic. Xylen, pondering proposals for using points for something when the game gets started. -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Fri Jun 16 16:01:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1074 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 23:01:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 23:01:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mk.egroups.com) (10.1.1.30) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 23:01:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.28] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jun 2000 23:01:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:01:12 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: point taken Message-ID: <8iebjo+4nda@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 557 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" I would like to begin discussion on two matters relating to Points, as mentioned in Rules 10 and 12. I should, in the imitation of one revered ecomonist, like to avoid any intimation of inflation, and I would like to offer for discussion that all numbers of points in the Rule-Set be divided by 5. or 2 if there are great objections. I would also like to have these points renamed "Greenspans". I apologize to Gallavanting Tripper for any perceived american- centricity in the above. Then again, what is the name of the Australian currency? -Oloros From mctupper@h... Fri Jun 16 21:51:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 472 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2000 04:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Jun 2000 04:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Jun 2000 04:51:37 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24976 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:51:36 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA79540 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:51:36 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] point taken Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:27:53 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8iebjo+4nda@e...> In-Reply-To: <8iebjo+4nda@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0006162250380A.03054@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, you wrote: > I would like to begin discussion on two matters relating to Points, > as mentioned in Rules 10 and 12. I should, in the imitation of one > revered ecomonist, like to avoid any intimation of inflation, and I > would like to offer for discussion that all numbers of points in the > Rule-Set be divided by 5. or 2 if there are great objections. I would > also like to have these points renamed "Greenspans". When I went thru the Suber rules, I removed the winning condition of collecting points. I left points in to be used as a sort of currency or something. Although the most common use for points is currency, we could decide to use them more as a score. As currency, points could be used to buy vetoes, extra votes, or other things. As a score, they would be used for senority, or other game ability ratings. It all depends on what we want to do with them. Personally, I am in favor of using them as currency, and developing other methods for game ratings. As such, does it really make a difference whether we get 10 points for passing a proposal or 5.00 Greenspans? They are just numbers. It is how the use of the currency changes that we need to be concerned with. For example, is a false accusation really twice as bad a making a bad proposal, or should it be half as bad? The real question isn't the point values, but the relative value of the offense. Unless it gets to be a problem for writing it out, (I have 100000 points not 10000) I don't see why reducing the value will actually change anything. Actually, I also was thinking of another way to use points. Mostly as part of a sub-game. Points can be used to define lines, planes and dimensions. As a player gains points, they can add to their description of a nomic-geometry figure. If they lose points, then part of their figure dissapears. With enough points a player can draw some complicated figures, and even define local geometry rules for their muti-dimensional space. Just a random thought, but it treats points in a manner different than the usual interpretation. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From dmarsh@v... Sat Jun 17 13:19:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24873 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2000 20:19:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Jun 2000 20:19:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Jun 2000 20:19:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dmarsh@v... Received: from [10.1.10.68] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jun 2000 20:19:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:19:21 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Observers Message-ID: <8igmg9+stpt@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1289 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: dmarsh@v... I received the invitation to join Socialnomic, and I'd like to make a pair of suggestions. First: Since I wish to keep up with developments in the game, and probably comment on them, but don't want to officially participate (I'm involved in another Nomic), I'd like to suggest that you explicitly define Observers in the ruleset, and what they can and cannot do. Second: I'd like to receive Discussion, and Proposals, and have the ability to read the current ruleset. So: I should subscribe to Socialnomic-DML and Socialnomic-RULES. And I should subscribe to Socialnomic-VML, but I don't want to read "I vote FOR proposal XYZ," I just want to read the proposals. So: I suggest that the rules be modified so that a proposal goes to -AML, and votes go to -VML. That way an observer, or a player who never wishes to be an Adopter, can completely ignore votes. I'd point out again that I'm not a player, and players don't have to do or even listen to anything I say. But I was a player in the early days of Ackanomic (according to the archives, my earliest proposals seem to have been in the 600's), and some of the best insight into the game was provided by non-players. (Hmm, and now I've set high standards for myself. Ach, well.) -- Dan Marsh, aka The Governor From oloros@b... Mon Jun 19 07:52:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31352 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 14:52:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 14:52:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 14:52:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.120] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 14:51:59 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:51:50 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Observers Message-ID: <8ilc26+7d0v@e...> In-Reply-To: <8igmg9+stpt@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 959 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" I was just about to make such suggestions. Something along the lines of a Proposal gets posted to -VML and -AML, Approvals posted to - RULES and -VML and -AML, and Defeats posted to -VML and -AML. At the time being, at least until the Escape Hatch is closed, Observers and Players are equivalent. With Agora, were observers considered to be prospective players? -Oloros --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, dmarsh@v... wrote: > > Second: I'd like to receive Discussion, and Proposals, and have the > ability to read the current ruleset. So: I should subscribe to > Socialnomic-DML and Socialnomic-RULES. And I should subscribe to > Socialnomic-VML, but I don't want to read "I vote FOR proposal XYZ," > I just want to read the proposals. So: I suggest that the rules be > modified so that a proposal goes to -AML, and votes go to -VML. That > way an observer, or a player who never wishes to be an Adopter, can > completely ignore votes. > From oloros@b... Mon Jun 19 08:17:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21421 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 15:16:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 15:16:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ck.egroups.com) (10.1.2.83) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 15:16:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.97] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 15:16:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:16:14 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: a slow hiss Message-ID: <8ildfu+f4da@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1993 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" This message contains more than a couple of suggustions submitted under the Escape Hatch clause of Rule 0. Please be patient as you consider them. (Official Action Mailing List, Rule 0) Have we come to agreement on removing mention of Proposal and Accusation Reminders from this list? (Rule 0) We should add the following definition: Game Data: Any data required by the rules. (Rule 0) The definition of the Rules Mailing List: This list is limited to the posting of enacted and amended Rules, and updates of Game Data. (Rule 1) Would seem to require that even the initial rules be posted individually to the RML. (Rule 3) Two sentences: one relates to Proposing, Rule 2, "All rule- changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on", and dangles a preposition; the other to Adoption, Rule 7, "If a Rule-Change is adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were posted to the VML" (also replaceing "they" with "it" to avoid personification of a clause). (Rule 7) straightening out the lists: A message "Proposal [n] Adopted" should be posted to the OAML and VML. A message "Rule [n]" should be posted to the OAML and RML. (Rule 8) more A message "Proposal [n] Defeated" shoul dbe posted to the OAML and VML. (Rule 10) amend to the following: Points are Game Data. A Player who Votes AGAINST a Proposal that is subsequently Adopted Shall receive 10 Points. A Player whose Proposal is Adopted shall receive 10 Points. A Player whose Proposal is Defeated shall lose 10 Points. (Rule 7) The Adopter must update any Game Data affected by the Rule-change, and post such updates to the RML. (Rule 8) The Player who posts the "Proposal [n] Defeated" message must update any Game Data affected by the defeat of that Proposal and post such updates to the RML. (Rule 0) Abbreviations: Official Action Mailing Mist (OAML or AML) Rules Mailing List (RML or RULES) Does anyone mind running together Ruleset and Rulechange? They coul dbe considered seperately. From oloros@b... Mon Jun 19 08:31:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6280 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 15:31:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 15:31:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mw.egroups.com) (10.1.2.2) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 15:31:41 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.28] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 15:30:51 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:30:49 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: point taken Message-ID: <8ileb9+4qam@e...> In-Reply-To: <0006162250380A.03054@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1660 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Xylen wrote: > > The real question isn't the point values, but the > relative value of the offense. > I don't see why reducing the value will actually change > anything. > Relative values. Of course economics is all smoke and mirrors, dependent upon the appearance of market forces, which generate market forces, which, in turn, generate.. anyway. Then again, maybe the meta- game should award more points than any aspect of a sub-game. > > Actually, I also was thinking of another way to use points. > Mostly as part of a sub-game. Points can be used to define lines, > planes and dimensions. As a player gains points, they can add > to their description of a nomic-geometry figure. If they lose > points, then part of their figure disapears. With enough points > a player can draw some complicated figures, and even define local > geometry rules for their multi-dimensional space. Just a random > thought, but it treats points in a manner different than the > usual interpretation. > Wow. I thought that I had predilictions for complicated sub-games. I enjoy the pun. Perhaps the midway between this idea and my feelings on devaluation would be to have multiple denominations of a currency that can be traded for Points: 4 points equals 1 square or 1 tetrahedron, 6 points equals 1 hexagon or 1 triangular prism, 8 points equals 1 octagon or a cube; currencies cannot be traded between dimensions, or can at great cost (6 squares equals 1 cube), but each dimensional type is uniquely valuable, or applicable to a single sub-game. -Oloros, "I don't know, I never went to Burger King." From mctupper@h... Mon Jun 19 09:21:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19813 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 16:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 16:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 16:18:01 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA42862 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:18:01 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA73546 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:18:00 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Moderation Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:13:31 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061910170101.25971@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen All moderators have been removed from the four Socialanomic mailing lists. Any future changes to the mailing list setups must be made through the Socilanomic owner. Socialnomic is now moderator free. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From mctupper@h... Mon Jun 19 10:01:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13978 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 16:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 16:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 16:56:49 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA50866 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:56:48 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA50326 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:56:48 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: point taken Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:44:08 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8ileb9+4qam@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ileb9+4qam@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061910554904.25971@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, you wrote: > Wow. I thought that I had predilictions for complicated sub-games. I > enjoy the pun. Perhaps the midway between this idea and my feelings > on devaluation would be to have multiple denominations of a currency > that can be traded for Points: 4 points equals 1 square or 1 > tetrahedron, 6 points equals 1 hexagon or 1 triangular prism, 8 > points equals 1 octagon or a cube; currencies cannot be traded > between dimensions, or can at great cost (6 squares equals 1 cube), > but each dimensional type is uniquely valuable, or applicable to a > single sub-game. I like that idea. It keeps my pun on points, and seems to solve your inflantion worries. We could use the 2-D currency for sub-games that don't require a lot of points and the 3-D for games requireing more. For a really complicated game, we could have X-D currencies. Looks like a good idea for starting proposal or two. 2-dimensional Currency: 1 point = 1 point 2 points = 1 line 3 points = 1 triangle 4 points = 1 square 5 points = 1 pentagon 6 points = 1 hexagon 3-dimensional currency 1 point = 1 point 2 points = 1 line 3 points = 1 plane 4 points = 1 tetrahedron 6 points = 1 triangular prism 8 points = 1 cube Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From mctupper@h... Mon Jun 19 10:05:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3911 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 16:52:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 16:52:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 16:52:25 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA47046 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:52:25 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA62814 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:52:24 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] a slow hiss Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:51:03 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061910512503.25971@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Oloros the Blue wrote: > This message contains more than a couple of suggustions submitted > under the Escape Hatch clause of Rule 0. Please be patient as you > consider them. > > (Official Action Mailing List, Rule 0) Have we come to agreement on > removing mention of Proposal and Accusation Reminders from this list? There may be a problem with Top Heavy and Tripper in gaining access to the mailing list. Hopefully that will be fixed today, and we can hear their voice in this. > > (Rule 0) We should add the following definition: > Game Data: Any data required by the rules. > (Rule 0) The definition of the Rules Mailing List: > This list is limited to the posting of enacted and amended Rules, and > updates of Game Data. > (Rule 10) amend to the following: > Points are Game Data. <> Do we want Gamedata to be in the Rules or in Official Actions? Gamedata falls under the idea of official actions that do not require votes. That would leave the RULES list with just the rules, and not any activity or action resulting from application of the rules. I think it would be easier deal with gamedata in the Actions mailing list. > > (Rule 1) Would seem to require that even the initial rules be posted > individually to the RML. Yes it does, but this should make things easier to track. Instead of reading through the entire ruleset, you would only need to see which rule was modified or repealed. There is nothing in the defintions that would prevent someone from posting a condensed version occasionaly. > > (Rule 3) Two sentences: one relates to Proposing, Rule 2, "All rule- > changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on", and dangles a > preposition; the other to Adoption, Rule 7, "If a Rule-Change is > adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were posted > to the VML" (also replaceing "they" with "it" to avoid > personification of a clause). How about this then. 3. All Rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on by the Active Players. If a Rule-change is adopted, then it shall guide play in the form in which it was posted to the VML. I also capitalized both instances of Rule-change. We don't specify capitilazation in our rules, but I think it might be a good idea for consistency. > > (Rule 7) straightening out the lists: > A message "Proposal [n] Adopted" should be posted to the OAML and VML. > A message "Rule [n]" should be posted to the OAML and RML. > (Rule 8) more > A message "Proposal [n] Defeated" shoul dbe posted to the OAML and > VML. Yes, those actions would seem to be indicated by Rule 0. > (Rule 0) > Abbreviations: > Official Action Mailing Mist (OAML or AML) > Rules Mailing List (RML or RULES) > Does anyone mind running together Ruleset and Rulechange? They coul > dbe considered seperately. I assume you mean removing the hypehns from those two terms. Either way my spellchecker will complain, but it is easeir to type without the hyphen. Along this line, do we want to specify capitilazaion of defined terms? Personally, I think that is getting to be fiddly, but in a way it does make sense. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. ------------------------------------------------------- -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From mctupper@h... Mon Jun 19 10:24:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26756 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 17:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 17:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 17:24:53 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA47016 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:07:19 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA83564 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:07:19 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Observers Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:56:04 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8igmg9+stpt@e...> In-Reply-To: <8igmg9+stpt@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061911062005.25971@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, you wrote: > I received the invitation to join Socialnomic, and I'd like to make a > pair of suggestions. > > First: Since I wish to keep up with developments in the game, and > probably comment on them, but don't want to officially participate > (I'm involved in another Nomic), I'd like to suggest that you > explicitly define Observers in the ruleset, and what they can and > cannot do. I don't think it's a case of defining what an Observor can do, but more restricting who can take official actions. I don't have a problem with your commenting on anything, but if you wish to participate in the sub-games or voting, then you would need to be an active player. Simply by not signing up for all of the lists, you fail to meet the defintion for player, and hence active player. I think some of the changes suggested by Oloros should make an observors life easier. Just the DML, RULES, and the AML should keep you up-to-date on everything. Reading the VML may give you some sense of what 'may' happen slightly before it actually occurs. Others may wish to just read the RULES list, or some people may prefer to just read the DML. It all depends on what you want to observe and how much in-depth information you want to see. The only real problem comes from someone who signs up for all four lists, discusses things, but doesn't want to vote. We may need to define Active player a bit more stricly if that sort of thing starts to be a problem. Perhaps something like posting a message saying they want to be an active player. Something to think about for future proposals. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Mon Jun 19 10:51:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23024 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 17:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 17:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.47) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 17:43:40 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.124] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 17:43:39 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:43:31 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: a slow hiss Message-ID: <8ilm43+sapf@e...> In-Reply-To: <00061910512503.25971@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2239 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" > > Do we want Gamedata to be in the Rules or in Official Actions? > Gamedata falls under the idea of official actions that do not > require votes. > That would leave the RULES list with just the rules, and not any > activity or action resulting from application of the rules. > I think it would be easier deal with gamedata in the Actions > mailing list. > Agreed, however tampering with Gamedata should be paramount to tampering with Rules. > > There is nothing in the defintions that would prevent someone > from posting a condensed version occasionaly. > Not at all. It should be welcome, as well as necessary, to track the full extent of possible Ruleset conflicts. > > (Rule 3) Two sentences: one relates to Proposing, > > Rule 2, "All rule- changes proposed in the proper > > way shall be voted on", and dangles a preposition; > > the other to Adoption, Rule 7, "If a Rule-Change is > > adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which > > they were posted to the VML" (also replaceing "they" > > with "it" to avoid personification of a clause). > > How about this then. > 3. All Rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be > voted on by the Active Players. If a Rule-change is adopted, > then it shall guide play in the form in which it was posted > to the VML. > My asides on grammer might have distracted from the argument that these two sentences belong in two different rules, which oul dalso trim our Ruleset by one number. > > I also capitalized both instances of Rule-change. We don't specify > capitilazation in our rules, but I think it might be a good idea for > consistency. > > I assume you mean removing the hypehns from those two terms. Either way > my spellchecker will complain, but it is easeir to type without the > hyphen. Along this line, do we want to specify capitilazaion of defined > terms? Personally, I think that is getting to be fiddly, but in a way > it does make sense. > Absolutely fiddly. I'd like to remove the hyphen, for such reasons as mentioned, and suggust that terms defined in Rule 0 be capitalized in use. Both suggestions are meant to improve legability of the rules at little sacrifice of typing speed and no reliance on email with HTML. From mctupper@h... Mon Jun 19 13:24:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32590 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA58644 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:24:43 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA22160 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:24:43 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Rule 0 with modifications Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:06:14 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061914234407.25971@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen I have made some of the suggested changes to this rule. Note the definition of Mailing List. With this description in place, we can start the game and still make changes to the Mailing Lists if everyone agrees. GameData has been added to the AML, but is not currently defined. Also Proposal and Accusations have been added to the AML. Are there any other problems, or any new ones? ==================================== 0. Definitions Rule-Changes which amend or repeal this rule cannot be adopted unless there are FOR votes equal to the number of Active Players Mailing Lists: There are four Mailing lists that make up the game of Socialnomic. Changes to the Mailing Lists can only be when sanctioned by the Rules Voting Mailing List (VML): Socialnomic-VML@egroups.com This list is limited to Actions that require Players to place a Vote. This includes: Proposals Accusations Voting Official Action mailing list(OAML or AML): Socialnomic-AML@egroups.com This list is used only for official game actions which do not require Players to place a Vote. This list is limited to: Announcement of Proposals Proposals Announcement of Accusations Accusations Announcements of Adoption GameData Rules Mailing List(RML or RULES):Socialnomic-RULES@egroups.com This list is limited to the posting of enacted and amended rules and represents the current Ruleset. Discussion mailing list(DML): Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com This list is used for discussion and game related musings. Nothing posted to the DML has any effect on the game. Examples include, but are not limited to: Discussions on proposals General discussion about the game. Player: A player is someone who is subscribed to the OAML, the VML, RML, and the DML. Active Player: A player is known as active if they have posted to the DML during the previous 14 days. In Stasis Player: A player is known as "In Stasis" if they have not posted to the DML during the previous 14 days. RuleSet or Rule-Set: The collection of all rules RuleChange or Rule-Change: The enactment, repeal, and/or amendment of one or more rules. Escape-Hatch: The Players of Socialnomic reserve the right to, by unanimous or near-unanimous informal decision, amend whatever parts of the ruleset that, for whatever reason, make the Game unplayable. The instant this Definition is repealed or modified, the Game restarts using its starting Ruleset. ============================================= Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Mon Jun 19 14:03:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29331 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 21:03:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 21:03:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 21:03:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.32] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 22:03:19 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:03:10 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Rule 0 with modifications Message-ID: <8im1qe+phun@e...> In-Reply-To: <00061914234407.25971@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 173 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" Nice changes. It kind of pushes that "near-unanimous informal decision" bit, though. I thought that Gallavanting Tripper and TopHeavy both would have sounded in by now. From mctupper@h... Mon Jun 19 14:07:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8619 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 21:07:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 21:07:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 21:07:47 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA46882; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:07:46 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA38452; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:07:45 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: Rule 0 with modifications Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:03:47 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8im1qe+phun@e...> In-Reply-To: <8im1qe+phun@e...> Cc: UnmoderatedNomic@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00061915064608.25971@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, you wrote: > Nice changes. > It kind of pushes that "near-unanimous informal decision" bit, > though. I thought that Gallavanting Tripper and TopHeavy both would > have sounded in by now. I have been worried about that as well. That is why I just posted Rule 0 to the DML. I don't want to go thru and publish each rule on it's own to the RULES list until we hear from the others. I hope they are just busy and not having problems with the mailing lists. Btw, what does constitute 'near-unanimous' with four players? Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From topheavy@s... Mon Jun 19 15:27:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24493 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 22:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 22:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ck.egroups.com) (10.1.2.83) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 22:27:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: topheavy@s... Received: from [10.1.10.108] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 22:27:57 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:27:52 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Rule 0 with modifications Message-ID: <8im6p8+qvd8@e...> In-Reply-To: <00061915064608.25971@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 823 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: topheavy@s... Yep. I am here, catching up on all the action of the past 4 days while trying to actually accomplish that stuff known as "work". The Ruleset is looking good, so i'm hoping we get some players besides ourselves. As a fiddly note, we probably shouldn't refer to the the Official Action mailing list as the "OAML or the AML" let's just pick one and stick with it. AML is shorter, and official probably implied. The observer idea seems like it is already taken care of. If you don't subscribe to the VML, you can't vote and you aren't considered a player. otherwise, it seems like Xylen has the most recently updated starting ruleset.. could you post it to this list so we can all review it for typos or leftovers from prior versions that need to be updated? When do we want to "activate" the game? -Topheavy From oloros@b... Mon Jun 19 15:41:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25701 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 22:41:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jun 2000 22:41:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 22:41:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.122] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2000 22:41:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:21 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: all hands stand by for submersion Message-ID: <8im7ih+4adh@e...> In-Reply-To: <8im6p8+qvd8@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 205 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, topheavy@s... wrote: > > When do we want to "activate" the game? > I'd like to give it until the end of the week to shake down final changes in the starting ruleset. From s3036845@s... Mon Jun 19 18:42:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31895 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 01:42:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 01:42:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bohm.anu.edu.au) (150.203.21.88) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 01:42:33 -0000 Received: from [150.203.41.8] (Altin7100.anu.edu.au [150.203.41.8]) by bohm.anu.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03989 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:42:29 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00061915064608.25971@X...> References: <8im1qe+phun@e...> <8im1qe+phun@e...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:47:47 +1000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: Rule 0 with modifications From: Gallivanting Tripper Hello GT here listening intently, but busy with work stuff Oh, and I think that Socialnomic has in fact willed itself into existence after the posting of the ruleset, so any tweaking now should be done by proper Proposals. And "near-unanimous" is just to stop one or two dickheads being - er - dickheads. Later GT From dmarsh@v... Mon Jun 19 19:39:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19053 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 02:39:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 02:39:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.201) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 02:39:51 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d115.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.125]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.10.1/Voyager) with ESMTP id e5K2dfp98671 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394EDAAC.59A1C36A@v...> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:45:00 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: Observers References: <8ilc26+7d0v@e...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dan Marsh Oloros the Blue wrote: > I was just about to make such suggestions. Something along the lines > of a Proposal gets posted to -VML and -AML, Approvals posted to - > RULES and -VML and -AML, and Defeats posted to -VML and -AML. > > At the time being, at least until the Escape Hatch is closed, > Observers and Players are equivalent. With Agora, were observers > considered to be prospective players? Acka was the one I had experience with, tho' among our most prolific Observers was the Speaker of Agora. People might have considered them prospective players, but the rules didn't consider them anything but Observers. I seem to remember the rules required that once a month or so, some functionary had to ask Observers whether they preferred to continue as Observers, become Players, or leave entirely. Kind of a waste, except for cleaning up mailing-lists. (My experience with Acka actually goes back before it had ANY mailing-lists, but didn't continue. I don't recall that I was around long enough to see Proposal 1000.) Anyway, my recollection of SN's ruleset is that I'm not a Player, since I'm not subscribed to all of the mailing-lists. I don't know what that makes me. Perhaps the ruleset doesn't actually need to recognize Observers, though. Perhaps the ruleset doesn't need to do anything at all. It would be a good idea, though, to make sure that it continues to refer to "any Player" instead of "any person." ("Hi! I'm Joe Schmoe from Idaho, and under rule 123.456, I hereby declare the entire ruleset invalid.") -- From dmarsh@v... Mon Jun 19 19:43:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28402 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 02:43:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 02:43:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.201) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 02:43:53 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d115.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.125]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.10.1/Voyager) with ESMTP id e5K2hhp99577 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394EDB9D.E9535EBC@v...> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:49:01 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] a slow hiss References: <8ildfu+f4da@e...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dan Marsh Oloros the Blue wrote: > (Rule 7) > The Adopter must update any Game Data affected by the Rule-change, > and post such updates to the RML. > > (Rule 8) > The Player who posts the "Proposal [n] Defeated" message. . . . . . could also be called the Adopter, for simplification's sake. (I'm still feeling out my role as Observer. Since the message load of my "home" nomic was light tonight, I'm feeling like being more active in SN. But maybe it'd be more appropriate for me to participate in the "big" discussions. Ahh well, that's why I'm still feeling it out.) -- From s3036845@s... Mon Jun 19 20:36:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26999 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 03:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 03:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bohm.anu.edu.au) (150.203.21.88) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 03:36:51 -0000 Received: from [150.203.41.8] (Altin7100.anu.edu.au [150.203.41.8]) by bohm.anu.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21271 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:36:48 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00061911062005.25971@X...> References: <8igmg9+stpt@e...> <8igmg9+stpt@e...> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:42:03 +1000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Observers From: Gallivanting Tripper >The only real problem comes from someone who signs up for all four >lists, discusses things, but doesn't want to vote. We may need to >define Active player a bit more stricly if that sort of thing starts to >be a problem. Perhaps something like posting a message saying they want >to be an active player. Something to think about for future proposals. I liked one of the earlier ideas about an official pledge of "citizenship" posted to the AML. This would sort out all the Observer/Active/Stasis rubbish. No-one can do any Game Actions apart from Discussion before they've pledged alleigance, and one they have, they're bound by all the Rules. Will add this to my list of Proposals when I have time GT From s3036845@s... Mon Jun 19 20:50:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6244 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 03:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 03:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bohm.anu.edu.au) (150.203.21.88) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 03:50:48 -0000 Received: from [150.203.41.8] (Altin7100.anu.edu.au [150.203.41.8]) by bohm.anu.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23439 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:50:45 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:56:01 +1000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Fake Accusation Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Rule 0 with modifications From: Gallivanting Tripper Just to be difficult ;-) I maintain that the game started immediately the initial Rule Set was posted. Hence or otherwise, I Accuse Xylen of invoking the Escape Hatch without near-unanimous consent, by changing Rule 0 which, as defined, requires unanimous voting anyway. I mean, you could have waited for TopHeavy and I to agree! It's the principle of the thing ;-) ----- Oh scratch that, you'll notice that a) this isn't a correct Accusation b) Rule 0 hasn't been modified, because nothing has been updated to the RULES list c) phew! d) let this be a warning to you all! e) I see no problem with starting the game as defined, it's not going to crash straight away, and we can iron out the little difficulties forthwith GT From s3036845@s... Mon Jun 19 23:04:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19895 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 06:04:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 06:04:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bohm.anu.edu.au) (150.203.21.88) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 06:04:55 -0000 Received: from [150.203.41.8] (Altin7100.anu.edu.au [150.203.41.8]) by bohm.anu.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12350 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:04:51 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:10:09 +1000 To: SocialNomic Discussion List Subject: Jumping the Gun From: Gallivanting Tripper Well, there I've done it. I've officially posted three proposals, which will 1) fix a few bugs in the Points system (to whit, the starting number is currently not specified, and Players can currently get points for voting aGAINST a rule-change which has already been adopted, which hardly seems fair) 2) fix a major bug in the voting system which means a 2 for/2 against proposal has can neither be adopted nor defeated 3) introduce a declaration of loyalty for incoming players (and we'll have to do the same) If no-one else believes that the game has actually started, then I recommend that those changes be incorporated into the revised starting ruleset. Dan, I don't know if you're subscribed to the Rules list, but would you agree that if a ruleset is posted on that list that is internally consistent, the game has started? Ever stirring GT From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 08:07:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12933 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 15:07:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 15:07:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 15:07:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.96] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 16:07:34 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:07:23 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Jumping the Gun Indeed Message-ID: <8io1bb+2s8m@e...> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 501 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Gallivanting Tripper wrote: > > Well, there I've done it. > I've officially posted three proposals, which will > Hurrah. Now pay attention: we can Vote on these Proposals, but, once Voted upon, those Proposals cannot be Approved. According to the Escape- Hatch, clause, when it is repealed, the RuleSet reverts to its initial state, also repealling any new Rules or Amendments. So the first Proposal to pass must be the one to close th escape hatch. -Oloros From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 08:18:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31860 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 15:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 15:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ej.egroups.com) (10.1.10.49) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 15:18:40 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.98] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 15:18:40 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:18:35 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Fake Accusation Message-ID: <8io20b+ggar@e...> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 369 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" > > e) I see no problem with starting the game as defined, it's > not going to crash straight away, and we can iron out the > little difficulties forthwith > Let's open the game then, by first closing the Escape-Hatch, then applying outselves to fixes for a week or so, before beginning the onslaught of theme-defining proposals we all have prepared. -Oloros From topheavy@s... Tue Jun 20 09:24:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10849 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 16:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 16:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ej.egroups.com) (10.1.10.49) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 16:24:53 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: topheavy@s... Received: from [10.1.10.63] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 16:24:54 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:24:45 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Fake Accusation Message-ID: <8io5sd+gl0p@e...> In-Reply-To: <8io20b+ggar@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 974 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: topheavy@s... > > > > e) I see no problem with starting the game as defined, it's > > not going to crash straight away, and we can iron out the > > little difficulties forthwith > > > Let's open the game then, by first closing the Escape-Hatch, then > applying outselves to fixes for a week or so, before beginning the > onslaught of theme-defining proposals we all have prepared. > > -Oloros Actually, i think the intent is for the escape-hatch to stay during the game in order to allow unanimous changes to the ruleset without using process... In terms of the game actually starting, I believe it hasn't simply because there are no rules. Note that a "ruleset" has been posted, but rules need to be posted as "Rule 0" "Rule 1" Rule 2" etc. I have no problem with posting the rules as such and starting the game, but we do need to iron out Rule 0, specifically because we cannot change it once the game is underway, so there is no fixing as we go along. -TopHeavy From topheavy@s... Tue Jun 20 09:28:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17835 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 16:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 16:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mo.egroups.com) (10.1.1.34) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 16:28:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: topheavy@s... Received: from [10.1.10.122] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 16:28:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:28:09 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Fake Accusation Message-ID: <8io62p+qi1@e...> In-Reply-To: <8io5sd+gl0p@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 66 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: topheavy@s... whoops, forgot that we could modify Rule 0 through unanonimity... From mctupper@h... Tue Jun 20 10:23:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23004 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 17:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 17:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 17:23:47 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA55890 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:23:47 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA70698 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:23:46 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Jumping the Gun Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:14:22 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0006201122460E.28104@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, you wrote: > Well, there I've done it. > > I've officially posted three proposals, <> > Dan, I don't know if you're subscribed to the Rules list, but would you > agree that if a ruleset is posted on that list that is internally > consistent, the game has started? It is my opinion that the game would officialy start as soon as someone posted the first proposal. There are now four proposals, so the game is in progress. I have posted the rules individually to the RULES list, as well as posting a compilation called the Rule Set. I would like everyone to take notice of Rule 0. The one that I posted is the version that was posted to the DML yesterday. That version fixed a few minor problems that everyone seemed to agree with or at least didn't object to. Under the Escape Hatch clause, I have posted the new version. Regarding the slew of proposals, I would like to mention one thing. All four of those proposals were not posted to the DML for discussion prior to being posted to the VML and AML. This isn't a bad thing, and there is nothing illegal about such moves, but I hope people will discuss proposal ideas before posting in the future. Especially when we get to big complicated proposals. But for now, we are all excited to get started, so there isn't much danger. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 10:54:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3252 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 17:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 17:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 17:54:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.115] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 17:54:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:54:52 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Jumping the Moon Message-ID: <8iob5c+gtr0@e...> In-Reply-To: <0006201122460E.28104@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 614 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Xylen wrote: > > It is my opinion that the game would officialy start as soon as > someone posted the first proposal. > Xylen, you've Voted AGAINST closing the Escape-Hatch. I spirit of discussion, how do you interpret the final sentence? --from Rule 0, Escape-Hatch: The Players of Socialnomic reserve the right to, by unanimous or near-unanimous informal decision, amend whatever parts of the ruleset that, for whatever reason, make the Game unplayable. The instant this Definition is repealed or modified, the Game restarts using its starting Ruleset. From mctupper@h... Tue Jun 20 10:55:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24478 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 17:55:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 17:55:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 17:55:41 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAB62258 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:55:40 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA62334 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:55:39 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Whew! Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:43:40 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0006201154390I.28104@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen Okay, after posting all of the rules, voting on the current batch of proposals, then making a minor proposal myself, and circulating it, I finally have a chance to breath and make another comment. (The first comment is in an earlier post to the DML) I wanted to explain why I voted against proposal 4. I have been uncertain whether the Escape Hatch was meant to continue or existed only for the initial discussions. After re-reading the comments about it, I have decided that it was meant to remain. We can make changes to Rule 0 if everyone agrees, and it is only when the Escape Hatch is changed that the game is reset. Since the game hadn't really started, it can't be reset. By leaving it in the rules, it serves as a reminder to all players that they can't make everbody mad at them or the game can be restarted and leave them in the dust. This should make everyone think twice about nasty coup attempts. Of course, really nifty coups can still be appreciated by the players, without resorting to opening the Escape Hatch. One more thing, I realized after I posted Rule 0 and the Rule Set that I had made a grammatical error in the definition of the Mailing Lists. My proposal is meant to fix that little problem. I have plans for more interesting proposals later. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 11:29:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12566 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 18:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 18:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 18:29:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.111] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 18:29:20 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:24:39 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: bouncing between lists Message-ID: <8ioct7+2rne@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 535 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" If I may so suggest, it is something facilitated by eGroups to post the proposal text to the VML, then forward it to the AML, changing the subject line to "Proposal [n] Open for Voting". Also, speaking of observers, I should recommend the options of "No Email/Webpage Only" for reading the Socialnomic Mailing Lists as bulletin boards. -Oloros --- In Socialnomic-AML@egroups.com, Xylen wrote: > This message is provided for the benefit of the observers, and > is sanctioned by the current Rule 0 defintion of Mailing Lists. From dmarsh@v... Tue Jun 20 12:05:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14678 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 19:05:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 19:05:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.201) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 19:05:35 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d72.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.82]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.10.1/Voyager) with ESMTP id e5KJ5Kp62070 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394FC1BB.AC06A58C@v...> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:10:51 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Jumping the Gun References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" Gallivanting Tripper wrote: > Well, there I've done it. > . . . > If no-one else believes that the game has actually started, then I > recommend that those changes be incorporated into the revised starting > ruleset. > > Dan, I don't know if you're subscribed to the Rules list, but would you > agree that if a ruleset is posted on that list that is internally > consistent, the game has started? Well, you've got a point; the posting of the rules represents the official ruleset, but I see nothing that indicates that the game either is OR is not active. My thought is that if proposals are made in accordance with the rules which have been published in accordance with the rules, then de facto the game has started. And a ruleset is almost never fully internally consistent. There's almost always an enterprising player who can figure out how to scam the rules, even when they're as well-put-together as most starting rulesets are. From dmarsh@v... Tue Jun 20 12:10:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24118 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 19:10:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 19:10:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.201) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 19:10:51 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d72.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.82]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.10.1/Voyager) with ESMTP id e5KJAVp63410 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394FC2F2.9E91B534@v...> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:16:02 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] bouncing between lists References: <8ioct7+2rne@e...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" Oloros the Blue wrote: > Also, speaking of observers, I should recommend the options of "No > Email/Webpage Only" for reading the Socialnomic Mailing Lists as > bulletin boards. Actually, I do this for -RULES. I have my mail client filter -DML, and shortly -AML, into a Socialnomic directory to read at my leisure. So I go through my messages then, in order of importance. From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 12:41:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19839 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 19:41:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 19:41:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.48) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 19:41:37 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.63] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 19:41:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:41:31 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: spamming the lists Message-ID: <8iohdb+u0t3@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1640 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" A bouquet of small fiddly proposals to adjust the Ruleset I just spammed to the VML and AML. Switch all power to forward deflector shields. I hope that by tomorrow we can start on the sweet fleshy parts of the nomic, rather than carving at the pith. I would like to bring up the possibility that instead of going with the co-operative (or socialistic) theme that is exhibited by the mechanics of the meta-game, we devote some thematic space to other ideas that include the word 'social': socials (tea and crumpets) socials (muddy feelings woh woh woh) social grace social standing society pages social climbing social contract (actually, GT, are you working on this?) social darwinism (perish the thought) social drinking And I would like to open that discussion with the following: Social Standing is Game Data. The Player with the highest Social Standing may be referred to as the Alpha Trendsetter. The Player with the second highestt Social Standing may be referred to as the Almost Trendsetter. Any Player with negative Social Standing may be referred to as a Pariah. A new Player shall be given Social Standing equal to the median of that of the current Active Players. The Adopter of this Proposal shall give each current Player a Social Standing of range 3-8, by random determination; and then remove this sentence from the Rule. I have a few ideas on to what 'trendsetter' refers, like the ability to dictate a word that must be used in any-player's posted opinion. maybe any-observer's as well, I mean, why not keep score for some types of non-player? -Oloros From mctupper@h... Tue Jun 20 12:43:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24884 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 19:43:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 19:43:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 19:43:43 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA42314 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:43:42 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12072 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:43:42 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: The sound of money Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:37:04 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062013424100.28424@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen I have been working on a system to do 'something' with the points that we will all be accumulating soon. ====================================== Points are the fundamental system of currency in Socialnomic. There exist a form of coins called 2-D. There exists several denominations of 2-D coins. Costs for conversions to other denominations is given in the table below. Once a Point has been converted into a coin, it cannot be converted into a different coin except as specified by the Rules. 2-D coin price table ___________________ 2 Points = 1 Line 3 Points = 1 Triangle 4 Points = 1 Square 5 Points = 1 Pentagon 6 Points = 1 Hexagon ____________________ 3 Lines = 1 Triangle 4 Lines = 1 Square 5 Lines = 1 Pentagon 6 Lines = 1 Hexagon ____________________ 4 Triangles = 1 Square 5 Triangles = 1 Pentagon 6 Triangles = 1 Hexagon _____________________ ========================================== Let me give an example of how I want this to work. I have 10 Points. I have the following options for purchase with my Points. A. 5 Lines B. 3 Triangles and 1 Point C. 1 Square and 1 Hexagon D. 2 Squares and 1 Line ...and so on. So I purchase 3 Triangles and have one Point left over. Now during some sub-game I need a Pentagon, but I don't have one, and I don't have enough points left to get a Pentagon. But if I had bought 5 Lines, then I could convert them into a Pentagon. I don't even have enough Triangles to buy a Square. :( This system is meant to be a starting point for various sub-games as well as keeping Point inflation under control. Players will have to be careful with thier purchases. In my example, I could have bought 2 Pentagons orginally with my 10 Points, but I made the wrong decision. If I had bought 5 lines to start with, I could buy 1 Pentagon later. (Total cost at that time would be 10 points for the Pentagon!) I hope I have made myself clear on what I want. some parts of this don't sound right to me, so I would appreciate any comments. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From dmarsh@v... Tue Jun 20 13:20:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14063 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:20:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:20:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.201) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:20:15 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d72.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.82]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.10.1/Voyager) with ESMTP id e5KKJtp81545 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394FD335.194C2F6B@v...> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:25:25 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] The sound of money References: <00062013424100.28424@X...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" Xylen wrote:system of currency in Socialnomic. > 2-D coin price table > 4 Points = 1 Square > 4 Lines = 1 Square > 4 Triangles = 1 Square Geometrically speaking, you should probably use "rectangle," not square; a square is just a special case of a rectangle. (You didn't say, for example, "5 lines = 1 regular pentagon.") And two triangles can be used to make a square or rectangle. I'm leaning forward in my seat to see what sub-game will use all of these geometrical figures! From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 13:22:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19424 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:22:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:22:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c3.egroups.com) (10.1.10.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:22:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.28] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 20:22:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:22:05 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: the color of money Message-ID: <8iojpd+pa6h@e...> In-Reply-To: <00062013424100.28424@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2012 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Xylen wrote: > > Points are the fundamental system of currency in Socialnomic. > > > Once a Point has been converted into a coin, it cannot be converted > into a different coin except as specified by the Rules. > These are the two trenchant points of the currency system under discussion that will curb inflation; and make each Polygon inherently valuable, rather than valuable only as change; and thereby, make it seem to us, as Players, that we never, ever have enough of the right kind of money, perhaps forcing us to negotiate and make disvalued trades. The problem will be encouraging Players, whether by system or mechanic, to invest their Points into Polygons rather than hold them until it is necessary. Some suggestions: Since the Adopter posts the names and Points of all Players, it might be appropriate to state that a Player has [x] days to convert their Points to Polygons, and put the onus on subsequent Adopters to dock Points from those Players who have not done so. Or, a seperate shared-function, the Accountant, could be created. The Adopter could be limited to reporting points-change after each Proposal is Adopted or Defeater; the Accountant submits a seperate message detailing the Points and Polygons of each Player as they expire. Or, Points remain in the background as a basis for exchange, and Polygons are directly rewarded or fined to the Proposer for the number of Votes by which a Proposal passes or fails, sides=votes. Any transaction of Points or Polygons should be reported in a message, and to keep things up to date, perhaps every such message should include the standings of every Player. Difficult. Maybe we all have to sig our posts with our balance. Now, if Polygons cannot be broken into Points, can they be broken into Lines, or Polygons of fewer sides? I take my 2 Squares (8 Lines), break them into 8 Triangles (24 Lines), assemble 1 Hexagon leave 2 Triangles (12 Lines). From dmarsh@v... Tue Jun 20 13:26:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26227 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.201) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:26:36 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d72.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.82]) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.10.1/Voyager) with ESMTP id e5KKQFp83338 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394FD4B1.AD20FE92@v...> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:31:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] spamming the lists References: <8iohdb+u0t3@e...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" Oloros the Blue wrote: >I have a few ideas on to what 'trendsetter' refers, like the ability >to dictate a word that must be used in any-player's posted opinion. >maybe any-observer's as well, I mean, why not keep score for some >types of non-player? Interesting: I'm not sure whether I object or not. On the one hand, this stretches the definition of "observer." On the other hand, the extension of this is to apply it to people who've never heard of Socialnomic, Nomic generally, or even the Internet. This, I find an interesting experiment. Actually, speaking of people who've never heard of Nomic, I hear that Agora Nomic initiated diplomatic relations with Canada. I wonder whether that came to anything? From mctupper@h... Tue Jun 20 13:28:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32500 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:28:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:28:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:28:51 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA40478 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:28:50 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA65558 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:28:50 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] spamming the lists Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:02:04 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8iohdb+u0t3@e...> In-Reply-To: <8iohdb+u0t3@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062014274901.28424@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, you wrote: > I hope that by tomorrow we can start on the sweet fleshy parts of the > nomic, rather than carving at the pith. I think we could have fiddled with the intial ruleset for weeks before we got it perfect. At least we got most of the major problems dealt with, so the minor things can be fixed by proposal. > I would like to bring up the possibility that instead of going with > the co-operative (or socialistic) theme that is exhibited by the > mechanics of the meta-game, we devote some thematic space to other > ideas that include the word 'social': > socials (tea and crumpets) So a new player would be referred to as a debutantee? > social standing The start of a caste system. > society pages In today's news, Martha was seen proposing a new rule. The rule was nicely presented with a garnish of comments, and accented with a color coordinated Voting announcement. Humourous comments aside, some of these themes may work out. It will be interesting to see how the game develops. > > And I would like to open that discussion with the following: > > Social Standing is Game Data. <> I suppose no matter what the titles are, there will develop a power structure, with some players being able to do things that other players cannot. I'm just not sure if I like the terms for Social Standing. Personally, I would rather see serf, Lord, Knight, and King, but the Social Standing system would be unique in the nomic world. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 13:36:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10853 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:36:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:36:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch.egroups.com) (10.1.10.51) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:36:35 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.31] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 20:36:35 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:36:35 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: social-lite-nomic Message-ID: <8iokkj+mi4f@e...> In-Reply-To: <00062014274901.28424@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 629 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Xylen wrote: > <> > > I suppose no matter what the titles are, there will develop a power > structure, with some players being able to do things that other players > cannot. I'm just not sure if I like the terms for Social Standing. > Personally, I would rather see serf, Lord, Knight, and King, but the > Social Standing system would be unique in the nomic world. > Xylen, dahr-ling, you're so-oh old-faashaund. Positive-ly medieval. Actually I am hoping for a power structure of the paltry. -Oloros From mctupper@h... Tue Jun 20 13:46:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15469 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:46:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:46:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:46:54 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA35558 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:46:54 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24150 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:46:54 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] The sound of money Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:30:20 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <00062013424100.28424@X...> <394FD335.194C2F6B@v...> In-Reply-To: <394FD335.194C2F6B@v...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062014455202.28424@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, you wrote: > Xylen wrote:system of currency in Socialnomic. > > > 2-D coin price table > > 4 Points = 1 Square > > 4 Lines = 1 Square > > 4 Triangles = 1 Square > > Geometrically speaking, you should probably use "rectangle," not square; a > square is just a special case of a rectangle. (You didn't say, for example, "5 > lines = 1 regular pentagon.") And two triangles can be used to make a square > or rectangle. I think I should include the fact that I am talking about regular Polygons, ie. equal length sides and equal interior angles. In that case I need to remove Triangles--> Squares and Triangles-->Pentagons. that just keeps things simplier and a bit more elegant. Regarding Oloros comments, Once you buy a Polygon, you are stuck with it. Polygons cannot be broken down into their component parts. I see Polygons as an industructable item. Now if a player is willing to exchange 5 points for your nice shiny new Pentagon, and you really want the Points, that should be allowed. Private trades can be made, but they will probaly be at a higher price than the 'Blue Book' value. Perhaps we do need an Officer of Geometry to track Polygons. Such a person would be responsible for posting each Players account to the AML as transactions are made. The Proposer would only need to record the change in points from a proposals passage or defeat. To encourage Players to buy Polygons: An extra AGAINST vote---1 Square The possesor of a dodecahedron is declared Emporer (3-D version only) Social Standing is increased 1 rank--1 Pentagon A sub game of some sorts---I'll work on that tonight Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 13:57:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31704 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 20:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 20:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 20:57:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.115] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 20:57:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:57:06 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: a wide angle lens Message-ID: <8iolr2+oev4@e...> In-Reply-To: <394FD4B1.AD20FE92@v...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1334 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" wrote: > > Oloros the Blue wrote: > > maybe any-observer's as well, I mean, why not keep score for > > some types of non-player? > > Interesting: I'm not sure whether I object or not. On the > one hand, this stretches the definition of "observer." On > the other hand, the extension of this is to apply it to people > who've never heard of Socialnomic, Nomic generally, or even the > Internet. This, I find an interesting experiment. > > But the definition of "observer", and its impariality has been under siege since Heisenberg, at least in a very narrow arena. One might say, though, that the good art attacts any sort of impartiality in its audience, by attempting some sort of emotional sympathy. I think that in this context, that of a nacent nomic, that as many accords that can be made to non-players that would invite them into the game as players should be taken. Even if it means a little more work on the part of the other players. A couple of statistics on any non-players seems facile, and perhaps amusing. It would be difficult, though, to attempt to track any off-list discussion regarding Socialnomic, and bring that (random) person into the game for an off-hand remark. Even if that person were already a player. -Oloros From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 15:18:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25794 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 22:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 22:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 22:18:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.34] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2000 22:18:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:18:09 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: pledge Message-ID: <8ioqj1+ueeb@e...> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1492 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, Gallivanting Tripper wrote: > > I liked one of the earlier ideas about an official pledge > of "citizenship" posted to the AML. This would sort out > all the Observer/Active/Stasis rubbish. No-one can do any > Game Actions apart from Discussion before they've pledged > alleigance, and one they have, they're bound by all the > Rules. > This came to mind as I saw noticed another person joined the mailing lists today. I guess the definition "Active Player: A player is known as active if they have posted to the DML during the previous 14 days" (Rule 0) holds for prospective players as well as vacationing players. How's that for involving non-players, Governor Marsh? (which is all very surreal, addressing a non-player as 'governor', for his opinion on relations with non-players, as if he is their non- representative or something) Speaking of which, I was not able to find anything on summit-level relations between Agora and Canada. Have you? So, a pledge or announcement from a new player. Something along the lines of a Pledge to conduct oneself as defined by Rule 1, and then an updated list of Players, by Active/Static, or whatever. Would an observer take the Pledge? Hmm. Doesn't really matter, as their actions on the mailing list would be answerable to the rules of the mailing list, and they would remain subject to our accounting. Operating in a foreign country without diplomatic immunity, as it were. -Oloros From dmarsh@v... Tue Jun 20 15:44:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26022 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 22:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Jun 2000 22:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.200) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 22:44:02 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d72.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.82]) by mail1.mx.voyager.net (8.10.0/Voyager-MailX) with ESMTP id e5KMiFL15723 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <394FF4DC.D125DA8F@v...> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:49:00 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: pledge References: <8ioqj1+ueeb@e...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" Oloros the Blue wrote: > This came to mind as I saw noticed another person joined the mailing > lists today. I guess the definition "Active Player: A player is known > as active if they have posted to the DML during the previous 14 days" > (Rule 0) holds for prospective players as well as vacationing > players. How's that for involving non-players, Governor Marsh? (which > is all very surreal, addressing a non-player as 'governor', for his > opinion on relations with non-players, as if he is their non- > representative or something) Surreal indeed. But: "a PLAYER is known as active". I'm not a player, since I don't get all of the groups. So I can't be an active player. But yes, prospective and vacationing players might become "active" by this definition. That might cause problems, but I'm not sure it'll break anything. > Speaking of which, I was not able to find anything on summit-level > relations between Agora and Canada. Have you? >From the Net Nomic Database: "Canada has officially been recognized to be a peer Nomic by Agora. Their Proposal number 2031 had as its text: 'The present Directive on Foreign Policy Business of the Agora Nomic recognizes the nation of Canada as a peer Nomic. The Ambassador of Agora is hereby instructed to present official Greetings from the Players of Agora to the Citizens of Canada, along with a copy of this Directive,' and passed with 9 votes for, 4 against and 3 abstentions. " However, a search on "Canada" within Agora's current ruleset returns nothing, and they're up to Prop 4016. So it's now, apparently, of only historical interest. But I'm interested nonetheless: If you find out anything, let me know. From s3036845@s... Tue Jun 20 18:04:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14873 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 01:04:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 01:04:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bohm.anu.edu.au) (150.203.21.88) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 01:04:50 -0000 Received: from [150.203.41.8] (Altin7100.anu.edu.au [150.203.41.8]) by bohm.anu.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12066 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:04:46 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8io1bb+2s8m@e...> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:10:10 +1000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: Jumping the Gun Indeed From: Gallivanting Tripper >So the first Proposal to pass must be the one to close th escape >hatch. Umm, this was not quite what I had in mind. The escape hatch is not meant just for setting-up purposes, it is meant as a legitimate solutions to critical problems down the track. In any case, removing the escape hatch will cause the game to restart with a new escape hatch! I'd say that the only way to rmove the escape hatch is by invoking it (and you won't get my agreement at this stage) cheers GT From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 18:15:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16864 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 01:15:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 01:15:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mk.egroups.com) (10.1.1.30) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 01:15:49 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.64] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 01:15:51 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:15:42 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: buggy Rule 7 Message-ID: <8ip4vu+44ft@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 146 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" Noticed as I was Adopting Proposal 1, that Rule 7 is a little buggy, in that it does not specify that a new Rule be posted to the RML. -Oloros From oloros@b... Tue Jun 20 18:37:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13452 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 01:37:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 01:37:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 01:37:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.107] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 02:37:08 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:37:05 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: buggy Rule 7 Message-ID: <8ip681+hno1@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ip4vu+44ft@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 400 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" --- In Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com, "Oloros the Blue" wrote: > Noticed as I was Adopting Proposal 1, that Rule 7 is a > little buggy, in that it does not specify that a new Rule > be posted to the RML. > Publishing problems to the RML and the AML (might as well call it that, as I expect it will soon be defined as such) were evident in the initial Rule 7. Try the fix with Proposal 9. -Oloros From dmarsh@v... Tue Jun 20 19:05:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24798 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 02:05:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 02:05:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.mx.voyager.net) (216.93.66.200) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 02:05:04 -0000 Received: from voyager.net (d150.as0.gdrp.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.160]) by mail1.mx.voyager.net (8.10.0/Voyager-MailX) with ESMTP id e5L25HL04012 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <395023FE.810D5735@v...> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:10:07 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Proposal 11 References: <8ip7a8+g328@e...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dan Marsh (aka 'The Governor')" Oloros the Blue wrote: > --- In Socialnomic-VML@egroups.com, "Oloros the Blue" wrote: > > Social Standing is Gamedata. > > The Player with the highest Social Standing may be referred to as the > Alpha Trendsetter. > > The Player with the second highest Social Standing may be referred to > as the Almost Trendsetter. What about ties? From mctupper@h... Wed Jun 21 01:49:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17063 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 08:49:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 08:49:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 08:49:40 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA31272 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:49:40 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA69970 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:49:40 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:31:11 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062102311309.00919@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: By the Pale Moon Light From: Xylen A whole slew of proposals have passed, and the relevant postings have been made. Although Rule 7 does not require the posting of new rules to the RULES list (yet), I have done so anyway. Although Proposal 8 has 3 FOR votes, it cannot be processed yet. There is an instance of OAML in Rule 0 which requires four FOR votes. It is my opinion that this proposal cannot be passed until it has been approved by all of the Players. Once Top Heavy has voted, then the appropriate changes can be made. One other thing I have noticed is the Proposer often times forgets(?) to vote for thier own proposal. Since it is not specified one way or the other, we cannot assume the vote would be FOR. Actually if Proposal 10 had specified modifications to Rule 6 instead of Rule 8, there would be have been allowances for a proposal to be defeated if the proposer voted AGAINST. Yes, I know, there are Points at stake. Let everyone else vote FOR, you vote AGAINST, and voila, you get 20 points!. I'm sure I mucked up a few point mongering schemes by Adopting a couple proposals before the last player got a chance to get their points. But in a way, that gave me points by keeping the point spread minimal. If Social Standing gets going, I suppose my actions would qualify for Pariah. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Wed Jun 21 07:37:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1789 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 14:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 14:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c9.egroups.com) (10.1.2.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 14:37:31 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.65] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 14:37:30 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:37:16 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: By the Pale Moon Light Message-ID: <8iqjus+ao1t@e...> In-Reply-To: <00062102311309.00919@X...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1015 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" > [Xylen] > Actually if Proposal 10 had specified modifications to Rule 6 > instead of Rule 8, there would be have been allowances for a > proposal to be defeated if the proposer voted AGAINST. > Actually, we could go so far as to say, if Proposal 10 had been written competantly, it would have effect if Adopted. Could we consider this Proposal again? Were Xylen and GT's objections to the specific wording/typo or the nature of the Proposal? > [Xylen] > Yes, I know, there are Points at stake. Let everyone else vote > FOR, you vote AGAINST, and voila, you get 20 points!. I'm sure > I mucked up a few point mongering schemes by Adopting a couple > proposals before the last player got a chance to get their points. > Oh yes, I think we all have expected this to arise. How about creating an incentive to be the Adopter? A payout of 3 points for taking on the responsibility of seeing through a Rulechange. We will have to payoff the adopter of a Defeated Rulechange as well, maybe only 2 points. From oloros@b... Wed Jun 21 07:45:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28067 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 14:45:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 14:45:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 14:45:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.32] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 14:45:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:45:47 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: Proposals 11/12 Message-ID: <8iqker+a7h6@e...> In-Reply-To: <395023FE.810D5735@v...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 867 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" Looking at the Voting on Proposals 11 & 12, one cannot help bu tnotice that Gallavanting Tripper has split his Vote, AGAINST Prop 11 and FOR Prop 12. Odd that, as Prop 11 is the scoring framework for a subgame that Prop 12 begins, a little like hitching a horse before it is shoed. GT, is there something specific that you object to, or are you looking at the two proposals and voting for 10 points from one that is more fundemental? Just wondering. > [The Governor, on Prop 11] > What about ties? > The game in Prop 12 will, I think, iron out any ties by increasing the ferment of competition between any Players tied for a Trendsetter position. If not, I suppose, we could drain a swimming pool, get some caviar and champagne, and force the contenders to fight to the finish for our entertainment. Err, I mean, develop the subgame further. -Oloros From oloros@b... Wed Jun 21 08:27:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32371 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 15:27:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 15:27:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hm.egroups.com) (10.1.10.45) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 15:27:19 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.114] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 15:27:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:27:09 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: publicity stunt setup Message-ID: <8iqmsd+78k5@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 612 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" For our listing on the Net Nomic Database and and posting to the Nomic Bulletin Board, I was wondering one thing: What's so special about this Nomic? This is what I've got: 1) sharing of administrative duties among players \_ attempt to remove Speaker-lock \_ attempt to increase player interaction; 2) eradication of turn-based play; Naming date: 5 June 2000 (by Xylen) Founding date: 16 June 2000 (happens to be Bloomsday!) Looking for Active Players Also, by bringing this discussion into the open, I would like to suggest we each hold off making this posting for a week or so. -oloros From topheavy@s... Wed Jun 21 10:15:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25461 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 17:15:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 17:15:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 17:15:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: topheavy@s... Received: from [10.1.10.117] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 17:15:54 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:15:13 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Interesting. Message-ID: <8iqt71+545e@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 907 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: topheavy@s... Okay. With the passage of Prop 3, we suddenly have zero Players. Which means that nobody can take any actions until they declare that they will abide by the rules of SocialNomic on the OAML. Which means that TECHNICALLY, I could post that right now, then go to the VML and get to choose what happens to every single Proposal out right now.. MUHAHAHAHA. but of course i am not going to do that, but i encourage everyone to declare their allegiance pretty quickly here... Also, i am going to draft a prop saying that adoption or defeat should be included on the VML, it makes things so much neater. I did it just to save myself some headache.. Hope nobody minds. If so, i guess you should accuse me or something. Provided everyone uses the "Reply" function properly, the view by thread option in the egroups archive interface makes checking on the voting status of props super-easy. -TopHeavy From mctupper@h... Wed Jun 21 10:17:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29184 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA69364 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:17:22 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA42848 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:17:21 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] Re: By the Pale Moon Light Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:12:31 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8iqjus+ao1t@e...> In-Reply-To: <8iqjus+ao1t@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062111162100.01829@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, you wrote: > Could we consider this Proposal again? Were Xylen and GT's objections > to the specific wording/typo or the nature of the Proposal? Exactly my objection. If it would have refered to the propoer Rule, I would have voted for it. Since it will have slightly different wording, by one number, then it can be submitted properly. I am even willing to let you propose it and regain the points you lost. (Being nice like that should give me enough Social Standing to not be the Pariah) Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Wed Jun 21 11:20:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 31801 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 18:20:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 18:20:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta2 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 18:20:19 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.66] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 18:20:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:20:12 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: flurry Message-ID: <8ir10s+aq68@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 444 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" When I noted "film at eleven" on the UnmoderatedNomic list this morning, I did not think that there would be anything so newsworthy to be filmed as hints at expulsion, and a non-attempt at a coup! Further, with TopHeavy, Xylen, and I scrambling around the mailing lists over the past 20 minutes, we had two same-numbered proposals for a moment. If there is a recommended method for dealing with such an occurance, please share. -Oloros From mctupper@h... Wed Jun 21 11:33:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15502 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 18:33:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 18:33:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 18:33:14 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA39878 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:33:13 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA23556 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:33:13 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] flurry Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:24:18 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8ir10s+aq68@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ir10s+aq68@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062112321201.01829@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, you wrote: > When I noted "film at eleven" on the UnmoderatedNomic list this > morning, I did not think that there would be anything so newsworthy > to be filmed as hints at expulsion, and a non-attempt at a coup! > > Further, with TopHeavy, Xylen, and I scrambling around the mailing > lists over the past 20 minutes, we had two same-numbered proposals > for a moment. Not to mention that I think there was even a second proposal number 1 for a brief time. >If there is a recommended method for dealing with such > an occurance, please share. It certainly has been an interesting morning. For a while I was thinking we should have used the suggestion for an IRC nomic. I think that as long as people are paying attention, delete bad messages, and hit the refresh button a lot, we shouldn't have a problem. The only concern I have is if a person votes for a proposal that is later deleted and renumbered. I'm not sure, but I think all replies are deleted when the orginal post is deleted, so a voter may think he has voted, when he hasn't really. Players will have to check their votes occassionaly to verify their existence. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From oloros@b... Wed Jun 21 11:41:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22435 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 18:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 18:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 18:41:52 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oloros@b... Received: from [10.1.10.32] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2000 19:41:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:41:41 -0000 To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: money flow Message-ID: <8ir295+eh0l@e...> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 405 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "Oloros the Blue" > [Xylen, in Proposal 19] > Once a Point has been converted into a coin, it cannot be > converted into a different denomination except as specified > by the Rules. > There are three levels, from each of which one cannot back down: points lines polygons It just seems that the whole lines-level could be removed, because they are more convertible than the polygons, just like points. -Oloros From mctupper@h... Wed Jun 21 11:55:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20959 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 18:55:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 18:55:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 18:55:10 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA54938 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:55:09 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA61256 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:55:09 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Re: [Socialnomic-DML] money flow Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:50:33 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <8ir295+eh0l@e...> In-Reply-To: <8ir295+eh0l@e...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062112540804.01829@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, you wrote: > > [Xylen, in Proposal 19] > > Once a Point has been converted into a coin, it cannot be > > converted into a different denomination except as specified > > by the Rules. > > > There are three levels, from each of which one cannot back down: > points > lines > polygons > It just seems that the whole lines-level could be removed, because > they are more convertible than the polygons, just like points. Actually, I have in mind something to do with Lines that don't form Polygons. My other hobby besides nomics is Fractals. With certain types of fractals, you can have several line segments forming a fractal line. Things like the Koch and Hilbert curves are composed of lines, but they have a dimension greater than 1, but less than 2. Xylen -- Email is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. From mctupper@h... Wed Jun 21 12:03:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30670 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 19:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Jun 2000 19:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU) (129.82.100.90) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 19:03:30 -0000 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.acns.colostate.edu [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.acns.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23038 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:03:29 -0600 Received: from Xylen (res099037.halls.colostate.edu [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA45718 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:03:29 -0600 Organization: Xylen's Designs To: Socialnomic-DML@egroups.com Subject: Votes still needed Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:57:28 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00062113022805.01829@X...> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Xylen Now that the posting frenzy