From frank@sounds.u-net.com Mon Aug 3 05:19:27 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (ns0.bb.u.net.uk [195.102.240.252] (may be forged)) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA17196 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 05:19:24 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com [194.119.133.26] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0z3JZ0-0000Hr-00; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:18:07 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980803130406.0068fc78@mail.u-net.com> X-Sender: sounds@mail.u-net.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:04:06 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Frank McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] problems - many Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 19 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank@sounds.u-net.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net sorry about this guys, I know i'm technically on vacation but... I'm having more problems with my e-mail and i don't think my request for vacation from the mailing list got through, if you get this can you reply to Dan@sounds.u-net.com, for some reason my e-mail server has forgotten my password and i cant access my mail would it be too much hassle to request that my e-mail address on the mailing list be changed to ??? and (if i'm not already) i be put on vacation manually? If this is a problem i can probably do it through the request system although with all my trouble with e-mail i'm a little weary of putting my trust in automation again. Dan Frank McLoughlin Sound System Engineers 21 Darwin Crescent Gosforth Newcastle Upon Tyne NE3 4TT U.K. Tel +44 191 285 0391 Fax +44 191 242 4322 Mobile 0973 529014 frank@sounds.u-net.com From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 3 23:20:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20900 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:20:50 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA12634; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA06307; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:20:24 -0400 Date: 4 Aug 98 02:25:43 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Update time! From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 20 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Well, time for another update! I've got everything done and up on the webpage, except the new rules, since I decided I did actually want some sleep tonight (prop 134 will take a long time). All of the props passed, so here's what everyone got (correct me if I'm wrong): Lambda: 60 Loyalty, 4 Vouchers, 4 of each Commodity, 1 Trotsky Point JT: 60 Loyalty, 4 Vouchers, 4 of each Commodity Towsner: 30 Loyalty, 2 Vouchers, 2 of each Commodity, 1 Trotsky Point The Kid: 30 Loyalty Philo: Dan: 30 Loyalty Ember: 30 Loyalty Cul: -100 Loyalty Philo, The Kid, and Dan are all on vacation, so I have all of their secretaryships, and I also get the Secretary of the Revolution and Secretary of the State. (Yipes! I sure am getting a lot of Secretaryships. Anyone want to take one or two off my hands? I'll give anyone the temporary positions, but only someone in the RP the Secretary of the State or Secretary of the Revolution. And I want to keep Secretary of Truth and Assistant Secretary of MicroNomic Foreign Affairs.) And Cul should get a little more involved with the game so he doesn't keep missing the deadline. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Aug 3 23:35:08 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20978 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:35:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:35:07 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update time! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 21 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 4 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Lambda: 60 Loyalty, 4 Vouchers, 4 of each Commodity, 1 Trotsky Point >JT: 60 Loyalty, 4 Vouchers, 4 of each Commodity >Towsner: 30 Loyalty, 2 Vouchers, 2 of each Commodity, 1 Trotsky Point >The Kid: 30 Loyalty >Philo: >Dan: 30 Loyalty >Ember: 30 Loyalty >Cul: -100 Loyalty Since we are now in a situation where we get vouchers for passing proposals instead of 3 of 2 types of commodities a week, I don't see the need to continue the repeated trades that I was in. I publically notify myself that I am cancelling the two repeatable trades that I was currently involved in (with Towsner and Lambda). I'm certainly open to trading on a case by case basis in the future. I will have the new page uploaded shortly. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Aug 3 23:39:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21004 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:39:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:39:13 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update time! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 22 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, JT wrote: >I publically notify myself that I am cancelling the two repeatable trades >that I was currently involved in (with Towsner and Lambda). I'm certainly >open to trading on a case by case basis in the future. Belay the above.. I'd forgotten that Lambda's change conflicted with mine and ended up overwriting it. Looks like we'll end up trading this week after all. I offer both Lambda and Towsner the inverse of the perpetual trades that we had been doing. To be exact: I offer Towsner 1 Idea for 1 Word. I offer Lambda 1 Idea for 1 Term. [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Tue Aug 4 06:02:08 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22272 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:02:06 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.146] (sdn-ar-001mabostP256.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.146]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28975 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:08:16 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update time! X-archive-position: 23 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Philo, The Kid, and Dan are all on vacation, so I have all of their >secretaryships, and I also get the Secretary of the Revolution and >Secretary of the State. (Yipes! I sure am getting a lot of Secretaryships. >Anyone want to take one or two off my hands? I'll give anyone the temporary I'll take SoRev. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From lambda@world.std.com Tue Aug 4 11:36:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23620 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:36:32 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA26501; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA24232; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:36:21 -0400 Date: 4 Aug 98 03:37:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update time! From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 24 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, JT wrote: >>I publically notify myself that I am cancelling the two repeatable trades >>that I was currently involved in (with Towsner and Lambda). I'm certainly >>open to trading on a case by case basis in the future. > >Belay the above.. I'd forgotten that Lambda's change conflicted with mine >and ended up overwriting it. Looks like we'll end up trading this week >after all. > >I offer both Lambda and Towsner the inverse of the perpetual trades that >we had been doing. > >To be exact: >I offer Towsner 1 Idea for 1 Word. > >I offer Lambda 1 Idea for 1 Term. > OK with me (sorry about that). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Tue Aug 4 11:38:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23635 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:38:17 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA26742; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25587; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:38:03 -0400 Date: 4 Aug 98 14:43:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Update time! From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 25 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>Philo, The Kid, and Dan are all on vacation, so I have all of their >>secretaryships, and I also get the Secretary of the Revolution and >>Secretary of the State. (Yipes! I sure am getting a lot of Secretaryships. >>Anyone want to take one or two off my hands? I'll give anyone the temporary > I'll take SoRev. Done. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Tue Aug 4 11:42:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net ([209.47.139.147]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23652 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:42:04 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com (p49.nas1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.133.49]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14783 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:41:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980804193832.006a52a8@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> X-Sender: newc_dan@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:38:32 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] Huurrraay!!!! - new e-mail address (and no ads) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 26 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net HURRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I found a free e-mail provider, who seems to work ok, allows pop3 and doesn't put any ads on the end of mails... My new address is: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Sorry about all the trouble i've been causing to people (especially JT who i would like to thank for his patience and assistance) It wont happen agen (i hope). Dan :) /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 6 12:32:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01870 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:32:21 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA21283; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA27045; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:32:02 -0400 Date: 6 Aug 98 15:37:19 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 27 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Sorry about the late update this time, and more apologies for the update on the rules still not being up. However, there are are a bunch of new proposals up on the web site now. We need to get some more proles proposing! BTW, we should see about starting the trial sub-game soon. Since The Kid is on vacation, we need another player before we can start. Anyone want to join? And, did any Ackans agree to join? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 6 13:00:40 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02057 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:00:39 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 28 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 6 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Sorry about the late update this time, and more apologies for the update on >the rules still not being up. However, there are are a bunch of new >proposals up on the web site now. We need to get some more proles >proposing! I have put the assets page up with all the changes from the beginning of the week. I noticed (and already submitted a proposal) that the temporary Secretary doesn't get any recompnse while being the temporary officer. My votes on the current proposals are 137: AGAINST (just for the trotsky point) 138: AGAINST (same reason) 139: AGAINST (same reason) 140: AGAINST (same reason) 142: AGAINST (same reason) 143: FOR 144 (I think, it's unnumbered on the page): FOR --JT From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 6 19:04:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04235 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:04:22 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA17549; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA04476; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:03:53 -0400 Date: 6 Aug 98 22:09:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 29 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I have put the assets page up with all the changes from the beginning of >the week. Eh? It still seems to be the same as the info I have from a couple days ago. (when the last batch of proposals passed). Did you forget to upload it? Or am I just getting a cached version from my proxy server? >137: AGAINST (just for the trotsky point) >138: AGAINST (same reason) >139: AGAINST (same reason) >140: AGAINST (same reason) >142: AGAINST (same reason) Hey, that's not fair! Since I am the first to distribute my votes, I have to vote on a proposal the way I want it to go, but you get the assurace that two other RP members are voting FOR it so that it will probably pass. Well, maybe in the future I should delay my voting (or vote in secret. It comes to the same thing). Or, I could vote AGAINST all of the current ones so that you won't get the Trotsky point, and Henry will. Yeah, that's what I'll do; vote AGAINST all of the props including my own. Then, if they are in danger of failing, I can bail out at the last minute. :) >144 (I think, it's unnumbered on the page): FOR Hm, I left two props unnumbered (and just fixed it). Which did you mean? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Thu Aug 6 19:22:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04347 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:22:41 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.215] (sdn-ar-002mabostP285.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.215]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA14851 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:22:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:28:06 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late X-archive-position: 30 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >My votes on the current proposals are >137: AGAINST (just for the trotsky point) >138: AGAINST (same reason) >139: AGAINST (same reason) >140: AGAINST (same reason) >142: AGAINST (same reason) >143: FOR >144 (I think, it's unnumbered on the page): FOR Only fair to warn you now, I intend TP's to be a double edged sword. I'm still working on a disadvantage to having lots of them, but I'll have it soo. Just though you should know... -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 6 19:50:29 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04514 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:50:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:50:29 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 31 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 6 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >>I have put the assets page up with all the changes from the beginning of >>the week. > >Eh? It still seems to be the same as the info I have from a couple days >ago. (when the last batch of proposals passed). Did you forget to upload >it? Or am I just getting a cached version from my proxy server? Umm.. neither.. I uploaded it, but to the wrong directory.. It's now fixed :) >>137: AGAINST (just for the trotsky point) >>138: AGAINST (same reason) >>139: AGAINST (same reason) >>140: AGAINST (same reason) >>142: AGAINST (same reason) > >Hey, that's not fair! Since I am the first to distribute my votes, I have >to vote on a proposal the way I want it to go, but you get the assurace >that two other RP members are voting FOR it so that it will probably pass. >Well, maybe in the future I should delay my voting (or vote in secret. It >comes to the same thing). Or, I could vote AGAINST all of the current ones >so that you won't get the Trotsky point, and Henry will. Yeah, that's what >I'll do; vote AGAINST all of the props including my own. Then, if they are >in danger of failing, I can bail out at the last minute. :) Heheh :) I won't do it often.. I just couldn't resist because they were all such USEFUL proposals.. and since the PROLES are likely to vote 'LOYAL' I figure I'll gamble on getting the trotsky point or having the props fail. >>144 (I think, it's unnumbered on the page): FOR > >Hm, I left two props unnumbered (and just fixed it). Which did you mean? Hrm.. I only saw one unnumbered.. but.. am I missing any votes that I should have made? (ie is there any proposal I haven't voted on yet?) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 6 20:27:04 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04685 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:27:02 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA28643; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03619; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:26:29 -0400 Date: 6 Aug 98 23:31:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 32 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>>144 (I think, it's unnumbered on the page): FOR >> >>Hm, I left two props unnumbered (and just fixed it). Which did you mean? > >Hrm.. I only saw one unnumbered.. but.. am I missing any votes that I >should have made? (ie is there any proposal I haven't voted on yet?) Yes, there is. There are both 144 and 145, and you've only voted on one (I don't know which). One of them was quite small, so you may have missed it. Check the props page again. Also, I have the rules uploaded. If you notice any mistakes, please tell me. (BTW, JT, the state should have 120 acres of farmland, not 20, because of my big prop) --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 6 20:31:00 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04766 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:30:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:30:56 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Sorry it's late In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 33 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 6 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Yes, there is. There are both 144 and 145, and you've only voted on one (I >don't know which). One of them was quite small, so you may have missed it. >Check the props page again. Also, I have the rules uploaded. If you notice >any mistakes, please tell me. (BTW, JT, the state should have 120 acres of >farmland, not 20, because of my big prop) Okay.. I'll fix the state farms.. I'd missed that change :) I vote FOR on props 144 and 145. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 7 11:50:22 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08002 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:50:20 -0700 Received: from [168.191.57.224] (sdn-ar-002mabostP184.dialsprint.net [168.191.57.224]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24822 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:50:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:52:40 -0400 To: MacroNomic From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 34 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I vote FOR all active proposals. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From lambda@world.std.com Sun Aug 9 13:51:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18285 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 13:51:34 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA25110; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11974; Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:51:15 -0400 Date: 9 Aug 98 16:56:40 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] People's Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 35 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I still need votes from Cul and Ember. Hurry up! --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Aug 10 02:22:06 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21371 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:22:05 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA26081 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825665C.003377CD ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:22:10 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025665C.0033D609.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:31:52 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] People's Votes X-archive-position: 36 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Hi all, I;m back from vacation (but I'll be off again next week!) If it's not too late, here are my votes: 137: LOYAL 138: LOYAL 139: LOYAL 140: LOYAL 141: LOYAL 142: LOYAL 143: LOYAL 144: LOYAL 145: LOYAL -- The Kid From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Mon Aug 10 04:34:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail.docnet.de (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA21718 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 04:34:48 -0700 Received: by mail.docnet.de with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3/IMAP4-Server (v3.00.17 AS-0098304) for at Mon, 10 Aug 98 13:19:50 +0200 Message-ID: <35CED797.C0EB1EA1@docnet.de> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:20:55 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] People's Votes References: <8025665C.0033D609.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 37 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Here are my votes: > 137: LOYAL > 138: LOYAL > 139: LOYAL > 140: LOYAL > 141: LOYAL > 142: LOYAL > 143: LOYAL > 144: LOYAL > 145: LOYAL Ember From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 10 23:20:57 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25274 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:20:52 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA26749; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 02:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08992; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 02:20:25 -0400 Date: 11 Aug 98 02:25:50 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Big Update From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 38 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, the usual update is now up. Just a few comments: Henry, next time don't have a prop that swaps a common word like "case". After applying the good old search and replace, I had to fix the problems by hand when sentences like "Rules under this section are conventions on how certain parts of the rules shall be interpreted in cases where it is confusing or ambiguous" turned into "Rules under this section are conventions on how certain parts of the rules shall be interpreted in trials where it is confusing or ambiguous". (And I'm not even sure I'm allowed to fix that. After all, the prop did say to swap *all* occurances of the words trial and case). I've updated the Players page, but none of that is official until the SoF, SoE and SoR bless it. You may note that I voted against all proposals where it wouldn't cause it to fail (including my own), just to get the Trotsky Points. Also, there is some stuff that should make it *much* easier to navigate the the Past Proposal Archive. I have added a Table of Contents at the top, arranged by date distributed, as well as links to each individual proposal on the Rules page in the Amendment Histories at the bottom of the rules. If I don't have the proposal on my site, you are directed to go to Philo's old site. And, I've added a global amendment log to the end of the ruleset, for times when a prop replaces all occurances of one word with another. I'd also appreciate any comments on any aspect of the site design (including the ugly shade of red on the background :), and what works/doesn't work in your browser (I've only tested the site in Netscape, Cyberdog, and Lynx, so you may have a browser that has problems with it). I'm wondering whether there's anyone with a slow Internet connection who would like me to split the Past Props archives into multiple segments. And, I'd like to know if there's anyone with the time to convert Philo's proposal archives into my format so that I can merge them with mine and have everything in one place. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Aug 11 08:25:09 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26771 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:25:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:25:09 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Big Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 39 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 11 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >OK, the usual update is now up. Just a few comments: Henry, next time don't >have a prop that swaps a common word like "case". After applying the good >old search and replace, I had to fix the problems by hand when sentences >like "Rules under this section are conventions on how certain parts of the >rules shall be interpreted in cases where it is confusing or ambiguous" >turned into "Rules under this section are conventions on how certain parts >of the rules shall be interpreted in trials where it is confusing or >ambiguous". (And I'm not even sure I'm allowed to fix that. After all, the >prop did say to swap *all* occurances of the words trial and case). I've >updated the Players page, but none of that is official until the SoF, SoE >and SoR bless it. You may note that I voted against all proposals where it >wouldn't cause it to fail (including my own), just to get the Trotsky >Points. I will get to this shortly, and will post when it's done. >Also, there is some stuff that should make it *much* easier to navigate the >the Past Proposal Archive. I have added a Table of Contents at the top, >arranged by date distributed, as well as links to each individual proposal >on the Rules page in the Amendment Histories at the bottom of the rules. If >I don't have the proposal on my site, you are directed to go to Philo's old >site. And, I've added a global amendment log to the end of the ruleset, for >times when a prop replaces all occurances of one word with another. I'd >also appreciate any comments on any aspect of the site design (including >the ugly shade of red on the background :), and what works/doesn't work in >your browser (I've only tested the site in Netscape, Cyberdog, and Lynx, so >you may have a browser that has problems with it). I'm wondering whether >there's anyone with a slow Internet connection who would like me to split >the Past Props archives into multiple segments. And, I'd like to know if >there's anyone with the time to convert Philo's proposal archives into my >format so that I can merge them with mine and have everything in one place. HipHipHooray on the reformatting and additions. I do have a 28.8 link at home and would greatly appreciate the past props archive getting split to smaller segments. Thanks :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Aug 11 09:27:16 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27019 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:27:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:27:16 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Cancelling trades Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 40 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Now that it is legal to do so, I cancel the repeated weekly trades that I have with Lambda (1 Term for 1 Idea) and Towsner (1 Word for 1 Idea). I am still willing to do trades on an as needed basis, but with the demise of player managed proposal mines, the need is less powerful to do weekly trades. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Aug 11 09:29:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27037 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:29:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:29:25 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Assets page Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 41 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net It is now updated. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 13 02:00:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA03878 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:00:48 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA21321; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a036.std.com (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA23280; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:00:18 -0400 Date: 13 Aug 98 05:05:40 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] YAU (Yet Another Update) From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 42 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, the new props are up. You may note that I made two proposals which rely on prior knwoledge; however, I feel that they are justified and am willing to give up the vouchers to JT and Henry. There's also another where it would have been useful to rely on prior knowlege but I decided not to. BTW, more proles should submit props. I think this is the third or fourth week in a row of RP only. Remember, the only real way to move ahead is through props. I'd also like to know if anyone has the rulesets of MicroNomic and PNomic at the time they were absorbed by MicroNomic II. Or just the initial ruleset of PNomic. Thanks. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From else_if@yahoo.com Thu Aug 13 06:22:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA04551 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:22:41 -0700 Message-ID: <19980813132234.5732.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send103.yahoomail.com; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:22:34 PDT Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 43 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 146: FOR, just in case 154 doesn't pass 155: AGAINST. It's already at least implied that the Secretary can grant and remove Active Secretarylets, and they shouldn't have to resume duties upon returning. 156: FOR. I think this was clear, but just in case. 157: FOR. Speaking of which, we really shold redo the way vote farms work. 158: FOR, 5, SAFE 159: AGAINST. Players should have to do this with other players. 160: FOR 161: FOR 162: FOR. Acutally, since collectivity would pass first, I think you could mark it as collective. Oh well. I sense tension within the party. Must be those Trotsky points:) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From else_if@yahoo.com Thu Aug 13 06:29:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send101.yahoomail.com (send101.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.87]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA04605 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:29:51 -0700 Message-ID: <19980813132908.14041.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send101.yahoomail.com; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:29:08 PDT Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:29:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: [MacroNomic] INPs To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 44 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net A reminder to all Acka players, make sure to vote FOR both INPs. Remember: we deserve three votes! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From else_if@yahoo.com Thu Aug 13 07:49:59 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04824 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:49:58 -0700 Message-ID: <19980813144932.6590.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send103.yahoomail.com; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:49:32 PDT Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:49:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: [MacroNomic] Positions To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 45 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net JT, I can take back SoU or SoJ if you want. Also, lambda, I'm the Secretary of Love, that was left of the web page. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 13 08:32:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05001 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:32:37 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:32:37 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Positions In-Reply-To: <19980813144932.6590.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 46 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, else...if wrote: > JT, I can take back SoU or SoJ if you want. Also, lambda, I'm the >Secretary of Love, that was left of the web page. If you want them they are yours :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 13 09:00:01 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05201 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:00:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <19980813132234.5732.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 47 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 146: mine 147: FOR 148: AGAINST - I think vouchers are becoming too common. 149: AGAINST - How day you take away the authority of the RP :) 150: FOR 151: FOR 152: (check for retracted) 153: FOR - I don't actually think this is as bad as it was intended since it doesn't say 'at least twice as many' :) 154: FOR - I think you meant SoCC becomes the Active Secretarylet in that field in the last paragraph though. 155: AGAINST - Same reasons as Towsner 156: FOR - I also think that this was implied, but .... just in case. 157: FOR 158: FOR, 5, GREEDY 159: FOR - I have way too many commodities :) 160: FOR 161: FOR 162: FOR (I don't really care, but that's not a reason to fail it and abstaining costs loyalty) And the assets page has been updated. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From else_if@yahoo.com Thu Aug 13 09:09:03 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send101.yahoomail.com (send101.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.87]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05271 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:09:01 -0700 Message-ID: <19980813160817.14503.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send101.yahoomail.com; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:08:17 PDT Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:08:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 48 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >148: AGAINST - I think vouchers are becoming too >common. Maybe, but we really need more professors. >149: AGAINST - How day you take away the authority of >the RP :) Weren't you the one who didn't want to pay attention to IN? This way three interested people handle it. >153: FOR - I don't actually think this is as bad as it >was intended since it doesn't say 'at least twice as >many' :) Arguably it might still work. I'd say the player has twice as many and then some. Also remember MN takes a pretty liberal view of language. >159: FOR - I have way too many commodities :) Trade with other people. Without mines there isn't enough reason to. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 13 09:56:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05520 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:56:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:56:46 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: <19980813160817.14503.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 49 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, else...if wrote: >>149: AGAINST - How day you take away the authority of >the RP :) > Weren't you the one who didn't want to pay attention to IN? This >way three interested people handle it. *grin* Yeah I know.. I expect it'll pass anyway :) I fealt that I had to (as a loyal member of the party) at least be the token resistance to removing party power :) >>153: FOR - I don't actually think this is as bad as it >was intended >since it doesn't say 'at least twice as >many' :) > Arguably it might still work. I'd say the player has twice as many >and then some. Also remember MN takes a pretty liberal view of >language. Arguably.. If I had to judge the CFJ on it I'd probably take the literal meaning, but that's me :) >>159: FOR - I have way too many commodities :) > Trade with other people. Without mines there isn't enough reason to. Perhaps. Maybe I just want the vouchers :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 13 12:56:02 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06283 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:55:58 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA17800; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA12202; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:53:26 -0400 Date: 13 Aug 98 15:58:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 50 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >155: AGAINST. It's already at least implied that the Secretary can >grant and remove Active Secretarylets, and they shouldn't have to >resume duties upon returning. They don't have to by my proposal, it only says that they *may*. Mine also lets them come back from vacation to do other stuff, which yours forgot to include, and makes it explicit that they can grant and remove Active Secretarylets. The way your prop is phrased, it says 'While there is an Active Secretarylet in a field the Active Secretarylet gains all powers and responsibilities of that Secretary', which implies that they get all of the power of granting secretarylets, so the real Secretary couldn't take it back without the permission of the Active Secretarylet. >159: AGAINST. Players should have to do this with other players. Remember, this still discourages it, since it's at an exchange rate of 2:1. >162: FOR. Acutally, since collectivity would pass first, I think you >could mark it as collective. Oh well. Yes, but it was not yet distributed when I wrote the prop, so I would have been relying on prior knowlege, and I don't want to do that *too* much (I'm willing to break the law, but not more than twice a week). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 13 13:06:15 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06343 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:06:10 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA19486; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA23894; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:05:52 -0400 Date: 13 Aug 98 16:11:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 51 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >148: AGAINST - I think vouchers are becoming too common. Remember, this is a one time deal. You can only get this bonus once. >155: AGAINST - Same reasons as Towsner See my response to Henry's reasons. Remember, my fix only says that they *may* take back duties and responsibilities, not that they have to, and fixes what I see as a major bug (that an Active Secretarylet gets all of the duties of the Secretary and so the secretary can't take back the position in an emergency). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Thu Aug 13 15:24:07 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06987 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:24:05 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.241] (sdn-ar-002mabostP335.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.241]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00894 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:29:42 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 52 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >They don't have to by my proposal, it only says that they *may*. Mine also >lets them come back from vacation to do other stuff, which yours forgot to >include, and makes it explicit that they can grant and remove Active >Secretarylets. The way your prop is phrased, it says 'While there is an >Active Secretarylet in a field the Active Secretarylet gains all powers and >responsibilities of that Secretary', which implies that they get all of the >power of granting secretarylets, so the real Secretary couldn't take it >back without the permission of the Active Secretarylet. Fine, but if it passes I'm rephrasing it in the next batch. I vote for 155. >>159: AGAINST. Players should have to do this with other players. > >Remember, this still discourages it, since it's at an exchange rate of 2:1. Yes, but I don't want it to happen at all. >>162: FOR. Acutally, since collectivity would pass first, I think you >>could mark it as collective. Oh well. > >Yes, but it was not yet distributed when I wrote the prop, so I would have >been relying on prior knowlege, and I don't want to do that *too* much (I'm >willing to break the law, but not more than twice a week). I'm going to have to keep that quote. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 13 15:28:48 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07015 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:28:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 53 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: >>Yes, but it was not yet distributed when I wrote the prop, so I would have >>been relying on prior knowlege, and I don't want to do that *too* much (I'm >>willing to break the law, but not more than twice a week). > I'm going to have to keep that quote. Anything you say or post may be used against you for any reason :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 13 18:24:39 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07882 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:24:37 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA12995; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (news.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15900; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:24:17 -0400 Date: 13 Aug 98 21:29:41 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Past Proposal Archive updated From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 54 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, I just changed the past proposal archive so that it is split into multiple files for faster download. You can still get the one big file, though. I've also updated the Rules page so that the links to proposals prior to 69 go to the appropriate page on Philo's site. (Links to props after 69 still go to the big page; it'll take me a little while to get them to go to the divided pages). However, with all these changes it's likely I've made some mistakes, so please inform me if you find anything broken. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From atharrison@wavetek.com Fri Aug 14 08:36:07 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10466 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:36:05 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA13124 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256660.0055A172 ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:35:18 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <80256660.00563E91.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:46:52 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 55 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 146: LOYAL 147: LOYAL 148: LOYAL 149: LOYAL 150: LOYAL 151: LOYAL 153: LOYAL 154: LOYAL 155: LOYAL 156: LOYAL 157: LOYAL 158: LOYAL, 10, SAFE 159: LOYAL 160: LOYAL 161: LOYAL 162: LOYAL Sorry that these votes are a bit no-brainer, but I've not got much time available right now to put any thought into it. I'm off on a business trip next week, so put me on vacation till 24th Aug. -- The Kid From lambda@world.std.com Sun Aug 16 18:15:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20191 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:15:29 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA09238; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a017.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11429; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:12:12 -0400 Date: 16 Aug 98 21:17:38 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Wake up call! From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 56 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I still need votes from Ember and Cul on Proposals 146-162. Hurry up, you need your votes in tommorrow. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 17 20:42:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25098 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:42:26 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA24653; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA05930; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:41:34 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 98 23:46:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 57 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >153: FOR - I don't actually think this is as bad as it was intended since > it doesn't say 'at least twice as many' :) It also doesn't specify that the proposal passes or fails, just that it immediately becomes inactive, so the prop does what it normally would (except perhaps with fewer votes) and this prop doesn't do much besides transfering the Trotsky points. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 17 23:56:57 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25891 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:56:55 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA10079; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA17416; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:55:49 -0400 Date: 18 Aug 98 03:01:21 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Update again! From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 58 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, the web site is now updated. This time, we almost didn't have quorum, as only half of the players voted. So come on, participate more! It's hard to stay above 0 loyalty if you don't vote. I'm also thinking that we may want to change the penalty for not voting, since at -10 loyalty per prop * 16 props = -160, which brings people way down. Perhaps we should have the penalty only be 3 or 5. Anyways, now that I can I'm going to trade The State 10 Vouchers for 2 Acres of Farmland. Hehehehe, power! More power! And because The State has to, it accepts my offer. I've reflected that trade on my Players page. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Aug 18 00:16:54 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26216 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:16:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:16:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Assets and stuff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 59 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net The page will be uploaded shortly (it and all of my Acka pages are uploading while I type this) In the meantime: I convert 8 of my Words into 4 Vouchers. I convert 12 of my Terms into 6 Vouchers. I convert 16 of my Ideas into 8 Vouchers. I convert 20 of my Vouchers into 4 acres of vote farms leaving me with 8 vouchers (and 10 of each commodity). I remind myself that I really need to propose some more stuff since I've been way too busy with Acka recently and thus haven't done much here. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Tue Aug 18 00:45:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26383 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:45:53 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA13032; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 03:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA09373; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 03:44:58 -0400 Date: 18 Aug 98 03:50:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Assets and stuff From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 60 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >In the meantime: >I convert 8 of my Words into 4 Vouchers. >I convert 12 of my Terms into 6 Vouchers. >I convert 16 of my Ideas into 8 Vouchers. > >I convert 20 of my Vouchers into 4 acres of vote farms leaving me with 8 >vouchers (and 10 of each commodity). OK then, I convert: 6 of my Words into 3 Vouchers. 1 of my Ideas and 3 of my Terms into 2 Vouchers. 15 of my Vouchers into 3 Acres of farmland. Leaving me with: 10 of each commodity (11 Ideas according to JT, but 10 according to my records) 15 Acres of Farmland 3 Vouchers And I've updated the Players page to reflect this. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Aug 18 08:42:53 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27808 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:42:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:42:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Assets and stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 61 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 18 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >OK then, I convert: > 6 of my Words into 3 Vouchers. > 1 of my Ideas and 3 of my Terms into 2 Vouchers. > 15 of my Vouchers into 3 Acres of farmland. > >Leaving me with: > 10 of each commodity (11 Ideas according to JT, but 10 according to my >records) > 15 Acres of Farmland > 3 Vouchers You are right.. I added 8+3 and got 12 last night, not 11. Culpa mea and thanks for correcting me. (I wasn't trying to out-farm you btw.. just trying to get down to a smaller number of commodities and vouchers and make the ones I had useful :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Tue Aug 18 12:15:34 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28510 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:30 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08801; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25434; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:13:20 -0400 Date: 18 Aug 98 15:18:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Assets and stuff From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 62 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >(I wasn't trying to out-farm you btw.. just trying to get down to a >smaller number of commodities and vouchers and make the ones I had useful >:) Yes, but I *was* trying to out-farm you ;). So, I got more. Oh, BTW, I will unconditionally offer 1 voucher to each you and Henry, because of those props which relied on prior knowledge. (I notice that you can't file a civil trial against me, since it needs two proles as judges, and there's only one who's not on vacation and has graduated). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Tue Aug 18 12:28:05 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28577 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:28:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:28:04 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Assets and stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 63 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 18 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >>(I wasn't trying to out-farm you btw.. just trying to get down to a >>smaller number of commodities and vouchers and make the ones I had useful >>:) > >Yes, but I *was* trying to out-farm you ;). So, I got more. Oh, BTW, I will >unconditionally offer 1 voucher to each you and Henry, because of those >props which relied on prior knowledge. (I notice that you can't file a >civil trial against me, since it needs two proles as judges, and there's >only one who's not on vacation and has graduated). Far be it from me to not acept such generosity :) I'll update that on the assets page (for myself at least) tonight. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From else_if@yahoo.com Wed Aug 19 11:18:05 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send1c.yahoomail.com (send1c.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.38]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03881 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:18:04 -0700 Message-ID: <19980819182022.20275.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send1c; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:20:22 PDT Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: [MacroNomic] Stuff To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 64 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net First, I approve lambda's trotsky point totals and offer to make him a Secretarylet of the Revolution. Next, I accept the voucher and swear to lambda upon the goodness of the State not to file a case against him for using advance knowledge of that proposal. Also, in rule 3-1, you inserted "and not reactive" before "inactive" instead of after. It looks rather silly now. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lambda@world.std.com Wed Aug 19 12:08:30 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04048 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:08:26 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA11930; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16011; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:05:14 -0400 Date: 19 Aug 98 15:10:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Stuff From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 65 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >First, I approve lambda's trotsky point totals and offer to make him a >Secretarylet of the Revolution. I accept. >Also, in rule 3-1, you inserted "and not reactive" before "inactive" >instead of after. It looks rather silly now. Oops, I'll change that. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 20 01:20:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02167 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:20:28 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA07536; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16265; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:20:07 -0400 Date: 20 Aug 98 04:25:39 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] New Props From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 66 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Here are the current props. I've decided to go back to sending them out by email as well as the web to see if that helps increase the voting rate. I've also put some of my comments in: 163: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 Create rule 2-5, "Ultimate Advisory Council". Create rule 2-5-0, "Higher Ultimate Advisory Council" reading as delimited HUAC (took me forever to get that acronym to work) HUAC The highest honor a citizen of the People's Republic of MacroNomic can receive is to become a member of the Higher Ultimate Advisory Council. Membership is for life. There is no set way to become a member except by a specifc proposal. No proposal may make anyone a member unless it is marked as a nomination proposal. Both players and former players may be members of the Higher Ultimate Advisory Council. HUAC Create rule 3-1-3-1, "Nominations" reading as delimited by GREATHONOR GREATHONOR Nominations is a marking. A proposal marked as nominations is a nomination proposal. A nomination proposal only passes if two-thirds of all players vote FOR it, and all members of the Revolutionary Party vote for it. A nomination proposal takes no resources to make, and gives no reward of penalty regardless of the result. This take precedence over section 3-1. GREATHONOR Create rule 2-5-1, "Lower Ultimate Advisory Council" reading as delimited by LUAC LUAC It is a great honor for a player to become a member of the Lower Ultimate Advisory Council (but not the greatest.) Players sit for one month at a time. If a player is given a seat while they already have one, they spend another month after all uncompleted terms are finished. Players are given seats as specified in the rule. After serving a month on the Lower Ultimate Advisory Council, a player receives a medal. If it is eir first month, e receives a medal reading "Sapenti venienti gloriam" (to the wise bringer of glory). If it is eir second month, e receives a medal reading "Ei qui devovuit se ut gloficaret MacroNomecem" (To he who has sacrificed himself to glorify MacroNomic). Every month after that, e receives a medal reading "Permaximi defensori et socii rei publicae" (To the greatest defender and ally of the republic). If all the Sovereign Republics are voting members of Internomic, all three liaisons will receive a seat on the Lower Ultimate Advisory Council and this paragraph will repeal itself. LUAC Create rule 6-1-2, "Medals" reading as delimited by REWARD Medals are tangible objects which may only be created as specified in the rules. REWARD Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] Ah, more titles! How nice. 164: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 Repeal Section 1-5. Yes, I know we just added it, but I thought of a better way. Create rule 2-0-0-0, "Advertising" reading as delimited by PROPAGANDA. PROPAGANDA When a new player joins they may specify a player who caused them to join. Once the new player has spent one month as a non-vacationing player, they player who caused em to join receives 1 voucher. PROPAGANDA Votes: * Lambda: AGAINST [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] I actually don't care one way or the other, but I do need to get a few Trotsky points, and I also like being the only one who can recieve the rewards. 165: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 Alter rule 2-2-0-1 to read as delimited by NITPICKERS NITPICKERS If a player has at least twice as many Trotsky points as another, the second player may accuse a proposal made by the first player of being a "New Revolution". The proposal will immediately fail and half of the first player's Trotsky points will be transfered to the second player. NITPICKERS Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] Yeah, OK. Fixes all of the problems mentioned so far, and I'm no longer in serious danger of having it done to me. 166: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 Move rule 1-0 to rule 1-0-0 and name rule 1-0 "Specific Secretaries" (this is a placeholder.) Move all children of rule 1 except for rules 1-0 and 1-9 to children of rule 1-0. Renumber rule 1-9 to rule 1-1. Create rule 1-2, "Appointed Secretaries" reading as delimited by OHOHMEME OHOHMEME Some Secretaryships are appointed. The holder of an appointed secretaryship may not give that position to another player or grant an Active Secretaryship. When the holder of an appointed secretaryship returns from vacation, the Active Secretaryletship is immediately removed. OHOHMEME Create rule 1-2-0, "Appointments" reading as delimited by PICKMEPLEASE PICKMEPLEASE An appointment is a referendum. The Secretary of the Central Committee is the accountant for it. The legal votes are NONE or the name of a player. Any member of the Revolutionary Party may create an appointment by informing the Secretary of the Central Committee along with the name of an appointed secretaryship. If at any time a majority of the Revolutionary Party has voted the same way on an appointment and the vote is not NONE then the appointment becomes inactive and the player who was selected by the appointment is given the appointed secretaryship. PICKMEPLEASE In rule 3-10 add ", Appointments (1-2-0)," after "(4-0-1)". After the third sentence of rule 3-0, add "These liaisons are appointed secretaries." Destroy all secretarylets for liaisons except Active secretarylets. Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] I was about to do the equivilent of the restructuring of rule 1... Oh, well. 167: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 Replace all strings which consist entirely of a rule number in parenthasies with "Section " followed the rule number, all in bracets (so (0-3) goes to [Section 0-3]). Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] I was also about to do this. 168: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 At the end of the second-to-last paragraph of rule 3, add "If a player's vote on a referenda should ever be something other than a valid vote for that type of referenda or for the past hour has been an unprotected vote that cannot be made on that specific referenda by that specific player, then that vote is changed to NONE, or the first vote listed if NONE is not a vote for that type of referenda; this is known as an deinvalidizing. Unless otherwise specified, all votes are unprotected." Alter rule 3-1-0 to read "The set of legal votes on a Proposal is FOR, AGAINST, LOYAL, ATTEMPTED, and NONE. A vote of LOYAL may not be cast on a proposal that is made by a player who is a Prole. An attempt to do so will have no effect on the game. When a proposal is created, the vote of the player who made it is initially FOR; the vote of every other player is initially NONE. No player may change eir vote to ATTEMPTED. If a player's vote is deinvalidized, it is changed to ATTEMPTED and becomes protected. " In other words you won't get punished because the situation changes and your LOYAL vote becomes NONE. Votes: * Lambda: AGAINST [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] This is a clumsy fix to what I just realized is a nonexistant problem. There is no way a player can become a member of the RP in between proposals, unless they are the SoT, in which case they can change their own votes to prevent the problem. Remember, they still need to notify the SoF of their status before they become a member of the RP. 169: Henry Towsner Date: Aug 19/19 In my opinion, rule 3-1, Proposals, is too long. Here's my attepmt to split it up a bit: Create rule 3-1-4, "Retractions" and transfer the last three paragraphs of rule 3-1 to it. Create rule 3-1-5, "Proposal Resolution" and transfer the list of steps and the paragraph preceding it from rule 3-1 to rule 3-1-5. Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: FOR [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] Hmph, I was also thining of doing this too. You take all my ideas... :) 170: Lambda Date: Aug 19/19 Amend Section 2-4-0-1 by adding the following MOREWINNERS-delimited text: MOREWINNERS If two or more players simultaneously achieve a loyalty score of greater than 1000, the winner is determined to be the one with the highest score. MOREWINNERS Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: NONE [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] 171: Lambda Date: Aug 19/19 In Section 2-4-0-2, insert the phrase "at least" in between the word "owns" and the number 6. [As long as people are going to nitpick about things like this, we might as well fox it.] Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: NONE [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] 172: Lambda Date: Aug 19/19 Insert the following DUTIFUL-delimited paragraph at the end of Section 1: DUTIFUL A Secretary may delegate any of eir duties and responsibilities to a Secretarylet. DUTIFUL Insert the following sentence at the end of Section 1-9: "A Secretarylet may step down from eir position at any time." This actually makes the Secretarylet actually useful, rather than just a title, which the other prop forgot to do. It also explicitly lets a Secretarylet leave at any time, as otherwise a Secretary might give all of eir duties to the Secretarylet and get all the reward for emself. Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: NONE [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] 173: Lambda Date: Aug 19/19 This proposal is dependent upon proposal 172. Replace all occurances of Secretary of Foreign Trade with Secretary of Economics. This is because I hadn't realized when I wrote the foreign trade proposal that a Secretarylet can take over all of the Internomic business. However, it does have to be dependant on the last proposal so that this can actually occur. I'll become a Secretarylet of Economics if no one else wants, so that JT doesn't have to deal with IN. Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: NONE [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] 174: Lambda Date: Aug 19/19 This proposal has a Sub-Proposal with legal votes 3, 5, and NONE. Replace the text of step number 4 of Section 3-1 (or Section 3-1-5 if it exists) with the following text: "All players who voted NONE on that proposal will lose x loyalty points. " where x is the winning possibility of the sub-proposal. Votes: * Lambda: FOR [15] * Towsner: NONE [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] Sub-Proposal Votes: * Lambda: 5 [15] * Towsner: NONE [10] * JT Traub: NONE [14] * The Kid: NONE [10] On Vacation * Philo: NONE [10] On Vacation * Dan: NONE [10] On Vacation * Ember: NONE [10] * Cul: NONE [10] --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Thu Aug 20 05:40:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail.docnet.de (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA02878 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:40:37 -0700 Received: by mail.docnet.de with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3/IMAP4-Server (v3.00.17 AS-0098304) for at Thu, 20 Aug 98 14:25:38 +0200 Message-ID: <35DC160A.1E61054B@docnet.de> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:26:50 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Vacating References: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 67 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I'm going on vacation. Ember From else_if@yahoo.com Thu Aug 20 05:54:33 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send1b.yahoomail.com (send1b.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.23]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA02920 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:54:32 -0700 Message-ID: <19980820125400.6862.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send1b; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:54:00 PDT Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:54:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] New Props To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 68 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >This is a clumsy fix to what I just realized is a >nonexistant problem. There is no way a player can >become a member of the RP in between proposals, unless >they are the SoT, in which case they can change their >own votes to prevent the problem. Remember, they still >need to notify the SoF of their status before they >become a member of the RP. There is a way to become a member of the RP in the middle of a batch: winning. If a proposal passes which gives someone a win, the game pauses, new RP members are selected, and the game unpauses-at which point the batch finishes. There's no way to change your vote in the middle. Also there could eventually be other ways. >170: Lambda FOR >171: Lambda FOR >172: Lambda FOR, reluctantly. It was intended to commemorate when a duty was being done anyway, so that would be handled informally. But Secretarylets should be able to step down. >173: Lambda FOR. Yet another reason to vote for 172, although rule defineded delegating is still unecessary. >174: Lambda FOR, 5 _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 20 10:02:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03661 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:02:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] New Props In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 69 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 163: FOR 164: FOR, I like that anyone can get advertising benefits. 165: FOR 166: FOR 167: FOR 168: FOR 169: FOR 170: FOR 171: FOR 172: FOR 173: FOR 174: FOR, 5 When I'm am able to, I will appoint Lambda a Secretarylet of Economics and hand him all of the portions of the SoE which deal with Internomic. The assets page has been updatd with these proposals. --JT From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 20 11:23:49 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03906 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:23:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:23:49 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Vouchers and Vote Farms Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 70 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I had forgotten to give vouchers for RP and secretaryships earlier and have done so now. I convert 10 vouchers (of the 11 I have) into 2 Acres of vote farm. The assets page has been updated to reflect these changes. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 20 13:42:16 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04320 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:42:13 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA02862; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA13207; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:41:34 -0400 Date: 20 Aug 98 16:47:02 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. From: "Brian Campbell" To: "Duncan Richer" Cc: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 71 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Name: Duncan Richer >Address: dcr24@cam.ac.uk >Alias: Slakko > >Why not - I may as well try another game. OK everyone, we have a new player, with the above information. Slakko, to join the mailing list send a message to with the word 'subscribe' in either the subject or the body (or both). You will start out with 0 Loyalty, 10 acres of farmland, 1 of each type of Proposal Commodity, and nothing else that I can think of now. You can find the current proposals at: and the rules at: The voting period for this batch of proposals ends next Monday. Any other information that you need should be found somewhere on that site. I think that your professor will be Henry, but you should check with him on that, since he is the Secretary of the University. And feel free to ask questions of any of us, as we'll be glad to answer. Welcome to MacroNomic! --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Thu Aug 20 14:42:33 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04524 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:42:31 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.211] (sdn-ar-002mabostP281.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.211]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08552 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:42:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:46:02 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. X-archive-position: 72 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >The voting period for this batch of proposals ends next Monday. Any other >information that you need should be found somewhere on that site. I think >that your professor will be Henry, but you should check with him on that, >since he is the Secretary of the University. And feel free to ask questions >of any of us, as we'll be glad to answer. I am indeed your professor. If you have any questions I'm paid to answer them, so feel free to ask. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Aug 20 15:39:26 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04869 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:39:25 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0z9dMK-0005Hg-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:39:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:43:02 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 73 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: > >The voting period for this batch of proposals ends next Monday. Any other > >information that you need should be found somewhere on that site. I think > >that your professor will be Henry, but you should check with him on that, > >since he is the Secretary of the University. And feel free to ask questions > >of any of us, as we'll be glad to answer. > I am indeed your professor. If you have any questions I'm paid to > answer them, so feel free to ask. I have a little stunt planned. I was looking at the ruleset, and spotted a nice little loophole. What is the attitude of MacroNomic to scamsters? -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 20 15:44:12 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04905; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:44:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net cc: Duncan Richer Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 74 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: >I have a little stunt planned. I was looking at the ruleset, and spotted >a nice little loophole. What is the attitude of MacroNomic to scamsters? Personal opinion i that scams are good for invigorating a game. If there are no loopholes in the rules, they are boring :) Now against that, I try to patch loopholes where I find them unless I can exploit them first :) So far we haven't had any scams really attempted, so I'd say go for it :) I also notice that you are subscribe through your old adelaide acct to the list. I'm not sure if that's intentional on your part or not, but if it's not, mail me and we'll get you set up with the right address. I'm CC'ing this to you so you get it since I'm not sure your adelaide account forwards. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Aug 20 16:00:05 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04996 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:00:04 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0z9dgJ-0005Us-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:59:47 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:03:41 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 75 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, JT wrote: > On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: > >I have a little stunt planned. I was looking at the ruleset, and spotted > >a nice little loophole. What is the attitude of MacroNomic to scamsters? > > Personal opinion i that scams are good for invigorating a game. If there > are no loopholes in the rules, they are boring :) Now against that, I try > to patch loopholes where I find them unless I can exploit them first :) > > So far we haven't had any scams really attempted, so I'd say go for it :) Nah. I leave MacroNomic. > > I'm CC'ing this to you so you get it since I'm not sure your adelaide > account forwards. You can fix it up if you would like, so that I am subscribed directly through dcr24@cam.ac.uk. I'll keep abreast of things anyway. -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 20 16:17:33 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05121 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:17:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:17:32 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Scam potential? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 76 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I'm not sure if this is the scam that Slakko was referring to in his recent message or not, however, the wording that used to exist in the rules that specified what happened to objects controlled by a player who left the game got vaped at some point. Are we safe on vote farms since once a player leaves the game they are no longer an entity in the game (do we have a rigorous definition?) As far as I can tell, a player who has left the game might still be an entity and therefore could hold vote farms. Then when this player joins a second time after leaving, they will get 10 more farms in addition to however many they had previously. I will not attempt this scam, and truthfully, I'd be annoyed if anyone other than Slakko attempted it. I think that game custom would hold that a player stopped being an entity when they left the game, but since it's not explicitly stated...... I will be proposing something to fix this momentarily. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 20 17:01:00 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05412 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:00:58 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA00357; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA05103; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:00:40 -0400 Date: 20 Aug 98 20:06:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Scam potential? From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 77 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Are we safe on vote farms since once a player leaves the game they are no >longer an entity in the game (do we have a rigorous definition?) As far >as I can tell, a player who has left the game might still be an entity and >therefore could hold vote farms. Nope, but I just submitted a proposal to myself that explicitly makes it so. It doesn't conflict w/your prop, BTW; if we have both your's and mine we'll just have a double safeguard. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 20 17:27:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05590 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:27:46 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA03306; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA26147; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:27:17 -0400 Date: 20 Aug 98 20:32:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 78 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Nah. >I leave MacroNomic. Well, since you just joined again, I'd say that you have successfully pulled that scam off. I'll update the Players page to reflect it soon. That's one scam that has just opened up (If you'd joined before Monday, I would have gotten all of your stuff [or was that the previous week? I can't remember]). From "Re: MN: I want in again.": >I am not a new player, so I do not get a free Proposal Commodity. >However, I am a joining player, so I gain 10 acres of farmland. >I believe this gives me 20, as no rule dictates that a player's property >reverts to the State when they leave (or indeed goes to anyone else). Actually, you do get the three free proposal commodities, since if at any time someone has 0 of one kind they get one (unless they've traded some away in the last week, to reduce scam potential there). BTW, when the rules say "privately", it actually means "privately if you want to", whereas "personally" means "to only those people specified". So when it says that you need to privately notify the SoF, it really means you can notify anyone you want as long as one of them is the SoF. Well then, first I trade in 3 vouchers for one of each type of Proposal Commodity, and then I offer to trade Slakko 5 Words, 5 Terms, and 5 Ideas all for three acres of farmland. (That is the going rate, BTW. A proposal commodity is worth 1 voucher, and an acre of farmland is worth 5) --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 20 17:49:24 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05712 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:49:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:49:22 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Re: MN: I want in. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 79 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 20 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >Well, since you just joined again, I'd say that you have successfully >pulled that scam off. I'll update the Players page to reflect it soon. >That's one scam that has just opened up (If you'd joined before Monday, I >would have gotten all of your stuff [or was that the previous week? I can't >remember]). > >>From "Re: MN: I want in again.": >>I am not a new player, so I do not get a free Proposal Commodity. >>However, I am a joining player, so I gain 10 acres of farmland. >>I believe this gives me 20, as no rule dictates that a player's property >>reverts to the State when they leave (or indeed goes to anyone else). > >Actually, you do get the three free proposal commodities, since if at any >time someone has 0 of one kind they get one (unless they've traded some >away in the last week, to reduce scam potential there). He gets the first 3 but no more. I do plan on issuing a CFJ since I believe that game custom might hold that he was not an entity while he was not a player. >BTW, when the rules say "privately", it actually means "privately if you >want to", whereas "personally" means "to only those people specified". So >when it says that you need to privately notify the SoF, it really means you >can notify anyone you want as long as one of them is the SoF. > >Well then, first I trade in 3 vouchers for one of each type of Proposal >Commodity, and then I offer to trade Slakko 5 Words, 5 Terms, and 5 Ideas >all for three acres of farmland. (That is the going rate, BTW. A proposal >commodity is worth 1 voucher, and an acre of farmland is worth 5) As a note, I will make the equivalent offer to Slakko. (5 of each commodity for 3 acres of land). --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Thu Aug 20 19:16:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06156 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:16:18 -0700 Received: from [168.191.57.159] (sdn-ar-002mabostP047.dialsprint.net [168.191.57.159]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26873 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:15:07 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] CFJ X-archive-position: 80 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net CFJ 3 Filed by: JT Judge: Cul Statement: Slakko has exactly 10 Acres of Vote Farm. Reasoning: I believe that it has been unofficial game custom that a player ceases to be an entity within the game of Macronomic when they have left the game. I believe this to be the case because Entities are a game defined concept. According to the convention (Section 0-1-0-1, English), unless a statement is given an in-game meaning then common english usage applies. Leaving the game merely says that the player leaves the game. It assigns no other in-game meaning to those words. Therefore common english would mean that the leaving player ceases to be a player and thus ceases to be an entity since a non-playe of the game isn't defined to be an entity. Even the joining the game rule makes a distinction here and says a player is considered new if no previous player had the same email address. This implies a change of state from player to something undefined by the rules and then back to playerhood. If the above argument about entityhood is persuasive, then the events upon Slakko's joining and leaving and rejoining were as follows: He joined the game and gained 10 Vote Farms. He left the game, ceased to be an entity and his 10 Vote Farms devolved to the management of the State. He rejoined the game and thus gained 10 Vote Farms. Thus the statement above should be judged TRUE. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From tows@earthlink.net Thu Aug 20 19:16:23 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06157 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:16:19 -0700 Received: from [168.191.57.159] (sdn-ar-002mabostP047.dialsprint.net [168.191.57.159]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26934 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:22:34 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Scam X-archive-position: 81 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net First, welcome and congratulations to Slakko, for spicing the game up a little. The rules about entities are poorly defined, but it looks like when you stop being a player you stop being able to own things, so the state gets them. I'd like to note that it's entirely JT's fault if this scam works. I tried to fix trials so we could confiscate the extra farms, but no, you had to vote against it. Well now you'll see:) Regardless, as your professor, your homework for this week, Slakko, is to rewrite the entity rules so we don't have this problem again. Also, in response to your question, I have no objection against scamming, however there's a reason the trials rules are the way they are. Basicly, the RP can convict you of anything any time we choose, with a penalty of our choice. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 20 20:35:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06582 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:35:41 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA24734; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA18287; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:35:16 -0400 Date: 20 Aug 98 23:40:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Scam From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 82 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net > Regardless, as your professor, your homework for this week, Slakko, >is to rewrite the entity rules so we don't have this problem again. Also, >in response to your question, I have no objection against scamming, however >there's a reason the trials rules are the way they are. Basicly, the RP >can convict you of anything any time we choose, with a penalty of our >choice. Er, both JT and myself have already submitted proposals which fix up the relevant rules. While our proposals aren't mutually exclusive, I don't think someone who has not seen either of them could make a prop that didn't conflict. Also, I think that I must mention the fact that it has been more than four weeks (three if you don't count the missing week) since Cul has made any game action or any statement to the MacroNomic public, and therefore he is expelled from the game. I have tried to contact him privately through email, but it seems that he hasn't recieved my message, or choses to ignore it. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Thu Aug 20 21:08:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06744 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:08:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:08:54 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 83 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: >CFJ 3 >Filed by: JT >Judge: Cul ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I just did a double-check and Cul doesn't seem to be subscribed to the mailing list. I'm hereby pointing out that he has not made any game action nor voted for 14 days and thus he is forcibly removed from the game. (I believe this means you have to reassign the CFJ Towsner.. Sorry. I'd noticed Cul's lack of response recently anyway, so I was planning on double checking sometime soon as it was) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Aug 20 23:39:15 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07440 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:39:13 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0z9kqW-0001Iw-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:38:48 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:42:45 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 84 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: > First, welcome and congratulations to Slakko, for spicing the game > up a little. The rules about entities are poorly defined, but it looks > like when you stop being a player you stop being able to own things, so the > state gets them. I'd like to note that it's entirely JT's fault if this > scam works. I tried to fix trials so we could confiscate the extra farms, > but no, you had to vote against it. Well now you'll see:) My question: If you stop being able to own things, then why are returning players put in a position where they have no Commodities, while new players receive one of each? I see no need for such a distinction unless returning players start back with the commodities they had when they left. -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Fri Aug 21 00:53:53 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07674 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:53:52 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0z9m0j-00023c-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:53:25 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:57:23 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 85 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 163 LOYAL 164 FOR 165 LOYAL 166 AGAINST (I can see the difficulties inherent in actually getting appointments done on this system, especially with players having to leave their post and organise a replacement. I think that preventing Active Secretaryships for such a type of secretary is a bit risky.) 167 FOR 168 LOYAL Oh, by the way: I have no intention or desire to ever become a member of the Revolutionary Party. -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Fri Aug 21 00:59:09 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07698 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:59:08 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0z9m5l-0002BC-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:58:37 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:02:34 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Scam potential? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 86 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, JT wrote: > I'm not sure if this is the scam that Slakko was referring to in his > recent message or not, however, the wording that used to exist in the > rules that specified what happened to objects controlled by a player who > left the game got vaped at some point. > > Are we safe on vote farms since once a player leaves the game they are no > longer an entity in the game (do we have a rigorous definition?) As far > as I can tell, a player who has left the game might still be an entity and > therefore could hold vote farms. > > Then when this player joins a second time after leaving, they will get 10 > more farms in addition to however many they had previously. There's another interesting question: If a player who has left the game becomes a non-entity, how can the game (which no longer admits the player exists) distinguish between a returning player and a new player? Yet the rules clearly indicate such a distinction exists, so it would seem reasonable to infer that people who have left still exist as entities. -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From else_if@yahoo.com Fri Aug 21 06:17:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send1b.yahoomail.com (send1b.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.23]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA08666 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:17:19 -0700 Message-ID: <19980821131619.7344.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send1b; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:16:19 PDT Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:16:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: [MacroNomic] CFJ trouble To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 87 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Um, JT, I can't reassign the CFJ. He was a player at the time, and there's no provision for what happens when he leaves. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 21 09:02:21 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09124 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:02:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 88 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: >> First, welcome and congratulations to Slakko, for spicing the game >> up a little. The rules about entities are poorly defined, but it looks >> like when you stop being a player you stop being able to own things, so the >> state gets them. I'd like to note that it's entirely JT's fault if this >> scam works. I tried to fix trials so we could confiscate the extra farms, >> but no, you had to vote against it. Well now you'll see:) > >My question: If you stop being able to own things, then why are returning >players put in a position where they have no Commodities, while new >players receive one of each? I see no need for such a distinction unless >returning players start back with the commodities they had when they left. They actually aren't. The rules just aren't crystal clear in that regard. There is another place in the rules (forgive me for not quoting it exactly but I don't have the complete text of the rules handy on my local drive) which states that if at the end of a week a player has less than 1 of any commodity they are given one if they didn't trade any away during the last week. So a returning player would get 'resolvent' via that rule. It really should be done when the player joins however. I'll probably wait until the next batch of proposals to submit this if it hasn't already been done. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 21 09:05:03 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09141 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:05:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 89 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: >I have no intention or desire to ever become a member of the Revolutionary >Party. Of course you don't :) if you did it would be treason :) --JT, member of the RP. [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 21 09:07:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09167 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:07:32 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:07:32 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Scam potential? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 90 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: >There's another interesting question: If a player who has left the game >becomes a non-entity, how can the game (which no longer admits the player >exists) distinguish between a returning player and a new player? If a player with that email address existed in the past, then they are returning. That doesn't require the player to stay in existance, merely for the game to have a sense of history and what had happened previously. >Yet the rules clearly indicate such a distinction exists, so it would seem >reasonable to infer that people who have left still exist as entities. I'm not saying the rules cannot be interpreted as you did. I'm saying they are sufficiently vague that a CFJ should be used to settle the issue. And they the rules should be clarified (which is currently occuring). [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 21 09:17:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09228 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:17:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ trouble In-Reply-To: <19980821131619.7344.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 91 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, else...if wrote: > Um, JT, I can't reassign the CFJ. He was a player at the time, and >there's no provision for what happens when he leaves. Hrmmm.. Oy. I can resubmit another CFJ perhaps, and probably will. I think I have to in fact, since that CFJ that was assigned to Cul never gets reassigned either, or I submit a proposal which fixes it and we wait till monday. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Fri Aug 21 14:38:51 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10233 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:38:47 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA14511; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14441; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:38:04 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 98 17:43:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 92 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >163 LOYAL >164 FOR >165 LOYAL >166 AGAINST >(I can see the difficulties inherent in actually getting appointments done >on this system, especially with players having to leave their post and >organise a replacement. I think that preventing Active Secretaryships for >such a type of secretary is a bit risky.) >167 FOR >168 LOYAL What about 169-174? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From frank.schmidt@docnet.de Sat Aug 22 04:27:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from mail.docnet.de (ns.docnet.de [194.122.214.66]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13110 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:27:24 -0700 Received: by mail.docnet.de with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3/IMAP4-Server (v3.00.17 AS-0098304) for at Sat, 22 Aug 98 11:08:43 +0200 Message-ID: <35DE8AE4.2C3B6333@docnet.de> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:09:56 +0200 From: Frank Schmidt Organization: GMP Dr. Limbach & Kollegen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "The People's Republic of Macronomic" Subject: [MacroNomic] Please unsubscribe me Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 93 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: frank.schmidt@docnet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Please unsubscribe me from the MN mailing list for the duration of my vacation. Expected date of return is Sep 14, 1998. Ember From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Sun Aug 23 02:10:38 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18326 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:10:36 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zAWA2-00043z-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:10:06 +0100 Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:14:21 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] MN: Votes Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 94 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Now for the rest of my votes. 169 LOYAL 170 AGAINST 171 LOYAL 172 LOYAL 173 LOYAL 174 LOYAL, 3 -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From lambda@world.std.com Sun Aug 23 18:08:20 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21101 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:08:17 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA07394; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA17695; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:07:56 -0400 Date: 23 Aug 98 21:13:32 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Vote farms? From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 95 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Hmmm, I'll need some decision on the vote farm issue before tommorrow, when I need to tally the votes. So, either someone resubmit the CFJ and have it judged quickly, or I guess I'll have to count Slakko as having 20 acres of vote farms. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 18:37:22 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21300 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:37:17 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.205] (sdn-ar-002mabostP275.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.205]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02475 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:43:36 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] CFJ X-archive-position: 96 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net CFJ 3 Filed by: Henry Judge: JT Statement: Slakko has exactly 10 Acres of Vote Farm. Reasoning: I believe that it has been unofficial game custom that a player ceases to be an entity within the game of Macronomic when they have left the game. I believe this to be the case because Entities are a game defined concept. According to the convention (Section 0-1-0-1, English), unless a statement is given an in-game meaning then common english usage applies. Leaving the game merely says that the player leaves the game. It assigns no other in-game meaning to those words. Therefore common english would mean that the leaving player ceases to be a player and thus ceases to be an entity since a non-playe of the game isn't defined to be an entity. Even the joining the game rule makes a distinction here and says a player is considered new if no previous player had the same email address. This implies a change of state from player to something undefined by the rules and then back to playerhood. If the above argument about entityhood is persuasive, then the events upon Slakko's joining and leaving and rejoining were as follows: He joined the game and gained 10 Vote Farms. He left the game, ceased to be an entity and his 10 Vote Farms devolved to the management of the State. He rejoined the game and thus gained 10 Vote Farms. Thus the statement above should be judged TRUE. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Sun Aug 23 23:18:39 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22353 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:18:36 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zApxC-0006bj-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:18:10 +0100 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:22:32 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 97 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: > CFJ 3 > Filed by: Henry > Judge: JT > Statement: Slakko has exactly 10 Acres of Vote Farm. > > Reasoning: I believe that it has been unofficial game custom that a player > ceases to be an entity within the game of Macronomic when they have left > the game. > > I believe this to be the case because Entities are a game defined concept. > According to the convention (Section 0-1-0-1, English), unless a statement > is given an in-game meaning then common english usage applies. Leaving the > game merely says that the player leaves the game. It assigns no other > in-game meaning to those words. Therefore common english would mean that > the leaving player ceases to be a player and thus ceases to be an entity > since a non-playe of the game isn't defined to be an entity. Even the > joining the game rule makes a distinction here and says a player is > considered new if no previous player had the same email address. This > implies a change of state from player to something undefined by the rules > and then back to playerhood. > > If the above argument about entityhood is persuasive, then the events upon > Slakko's joining and leaving and rejoining were as follows: He joined the > game and gained 10 Vote Farms. He left the game, ceased to be an entity and > his 10 Vote Farms devolved to the management of the State. He rejoined the > game and thus gained 10 Vote Farms. May I just quote some rules carefully here: Section 6-1: : Each Tangible Object has a property which is it's controller, and which : must be a valid Entity. If the Entity which controls a Tangible Object : ceases to exist, then that Object ceases to exist. OK. This doesn't look good for me continuing to own the Vote Farms. However, it doesn't look good for the State owning them as well. If the Player was destroyed, then those vote farms were destroyed, so the State should only have 190 Farms left. There is certainly nothing in the rules which specifies that any such Vote Farms should devolve to the state. In fact, as no such rule exists, Section 0-0 specifically forbids it from happening: : No changes to the gamestate occur except those prescribed by the rules. At no stage did the rules prescribe that my Vote Farms were to be transferred to the State. In addition, at no point did the Entity of my Player cease to exist. It may have ceased to be an entity, but that did not mean that it was destroyed. It did mean that the controller was not in accordance with Section 6-1, but the lack of a method of resolution of this problem means that Section 0-0 prevents any "ad hoc" resolution such as the Vote Farms devolving to the State (as this is not specified in any rule). In summary: (1) No rule specifically ordered that my Vote Farms should devolve to the State on my leaving the game. (2) Section 0-0 prohibits the gamestate from being changed in a manner not prescribed by the rules. (3) (1)+(2) => I have 20 acres of Vote Farms. -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, Clerk of the Court, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sun Aug 23 23:56:24 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22534 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:56:24 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:56:24 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 98 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: >May I just quote some rules carefully here: > >Section 6-1: >: Each Tangible Object has a property which is it's controller, and which >: must be a valid Entity. If the Entity which controls a Tangible Object >: ceases to exist, then that Object ceases to exist. > >OK. This doesn't look good for me continuing to own the Vote Farms. >However, it doesn't look good for the State owning them as well. If >the Player was destroyed, then those vote farms were destroyed, so the >State should only have 190 Farms left. There is certainly nothing in the >rules which specifies that any such Vote Farms should devolve to the >state. In fact, as no such rule exists, Section 0-0 specifically forbids >it from happening: You missed Section 6-1-0-2 Vote Farms are a type of Tradeable Object. Vote farms are measured in integral numbers of Acres. There is a Global Limit of 200 Acres of farmland, and there are always exactly 200 Acres of Vote Farms. Any Acres of vote farms not controlled by any other entity are controlled by The State. Therefore, if you ceased to own them they did devolve to the state. >In addition, at no point did the Entity of my Player cease to exist. It >may have ceased to be an entity, but that did not mean that it was >destroyed. It did mean that the controller was not in accordance with >Section 6-1, but the lack of a method of resolution of this problem means >that Section 0-0 prevents any "ad hoc" resolution such as the Vote Farms >devolving to the State (as this is not specified in any rule). This we disagree on. I believe that the fact that you ceased being a player caused your 'player entity' to cease existing as well under common english meaning of the words in the rule. While I didn't like having to judge the CFJ I initially submitted, I was not allowed to reject judgement on it, so I did rule it TRUE and have returned it to Henry. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Mon Aug 24 03:31:48 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA23231 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 03:31:46 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA23129 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 03:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825666A.003A032D ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 03:33:39 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025666A.00399B2B.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:32:21 +0100 Subject: [MacroNomic] Back from vacation X-archive-position: 99 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Ok everybody, I'm back again. I'm a little out of touch with exactly what's going on at the moment, so I'm a little unsure as to the state of the game and proposals etc. I'll vote LOYAL on everything (unless it's a Prole prop, in which case I'll vote FOR). What's all this about some scam going on? Do I need to trawl through all my mail, or can I just scan down the subject lines and hope I pick up the rest? -- The Kid From else_if@yahoo.com Mon Aug 24 06:14:43 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send1d.yahoomail.com (send1d.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.48]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23652 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 06:14:42 -0700 Message-ID: <19980824130731.17159.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send1d; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 06:07:31 PDT Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 06:07:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: [MacroNomic] Welcome Back/CFJ To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 100 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Welcome back, The Kid. The issue is that Slakko joined, left, and joined again, and claims he has 20 vote farms as a consequence. JT judged this false (i.e. he judged the CFJ true). In response to Slakko's comment, I think what most likely happened is that when you left, the farms were destroyed along with their owner. Then, since there are always 200 vote farms, 10 more were created under State control. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From tows@earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 15:52:08 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25745 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:52:04 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.146] (sdn-ar-001mabostP256.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.146]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07449 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:51:48 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] CFJ X-archive-position: 101 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net CFJ 3 Filed by: Henry Judge: JT Judgement: TRUE Statement: Slakko has exactly 10 Acres of Vote Farm. Reasoning: I believe that it has been unofficial game custom that a player ceases to be an entity within the game of Macronomic when they have left the game. I believe this to be the case because Entities are a game defined concept. According to the convention (Section 0-1-0-1, English), unless a statement is given an in-game meaning then common english usage applies. Leaving the game merely says that the player leaves the game. It assigns no other in-game meaning to those words. Therefore common english would mean that the leaving player ceases to be a player and thus ceases to be an entity since a non-playe of the game isn't defined to be an entity. Even the joining the game rule makes a distinction here and says a player is considered new if no previous player had the same email address. This implies a change of state from player to something undefined by the rules and then back to playerhood. If the above argument about entityhood is persuasive, then the events upon Slakko's joining and leaving and rejoining were as follows: He joined the game and gained 10 Vote Farms. He left the game, ceased to be an entity and his 10 Vote Farms devolved to the management of the State. He rejoined the game and thus gained 10 Vote Farms. Thus the statement above should be judged TRUE. Judges Reasoning: Since this is the reasoning I originally presented, I don't really like having to judge it, but I don't see any way for me to decline judgement on it, so I have to do so. Also, because this is the reasoning I originally presented, I judge it TRUE. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 24 18:01:34 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26216 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:01:32 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA18706; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA06293; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:01:14 -0400 Date: 24 Aug 98 21:06:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 102 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >CFJ 3 Isn't this CFJ 4, since CFJ 3 was simply never judged? I'd just like it straight for the record. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Mon Aug 24 18:12:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26254 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:12:44 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.146] (sdn-ar-001mabostP256.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.146]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23697 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:12:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:19:03 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ X-archive-position: 103 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>CFJ 3 > >Isn't this CFJ 4, since CFJ 3 was simply never judged? I'd just like it >straight for the record. Sorry, yes. I thought I'd remembered to change it, but apparantly not. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 24 18:36:25 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26322 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:36:24 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA23096; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA13380; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:36:02 -0400 Date: 24 Aug 98 21:41:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] CFJ From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 104 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Section 6-1: >: Each Tangible Object has a property which is it's controller, and which >: must be a valid Entity. If the Entity which controls a Tangible Object >: ceases to exist, then that Object ceases to exist. > >OK. This doesn't look good for me continuing to own the Vote Farms. >However, it doesn't look good for the State owning them as well. If >the Player was destroyed, then those vote farms were destroyed, so the >State should only have 190 Farms left. There is certainly nothing in the >rules which specifies that any such Vote Farms should devolve to the >state. In fact, as no such rule exists, Section 0-0 specifically forbids >it from happening: > >: No changes to the gamestate occur except those prescribed by the rules. > >At no stage did the rules prescribe that my Vote Farms were to be >transferred to the State. Section 6-1-0: :When the Entity controlling a Tradeable Object ceases to exist, the controller :of that object becomes The State. Since a tradeable object is a subclass of tangible object, it overrides the default behavior, and since an acre of farmland is a tradeable object, when you ceased to be an entity (as per CFJ 3/4), the state got your acres of farmland one way or another. (As others have pointed out, I have specifically put a safety check directly into the vote farm rules, so that if somehow they are destroyed, they are immediately recreated by some act of God or other reasonable diety such as the SoE ;). By the way, I'm beginning to notice that quite a few (half) of our players are across the pond, especially in England. We've got Slakko at Cambridge, Dan in Newcastle upon Tyne, The Kid in Norwich, and the former player The Gingham Wearer in Lancashire, as well as Ember over in Germany. Is this about par for a Nomic? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 24 22:30:38 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26937 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:30:36 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA17852; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02898; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:30:12 -0400 Date: 25 Aug 98 01:35:49 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] YAU From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 105 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, I've tallied the votes and all of the proposals pass. I've reflected this on the web page, but I haven't yet made the changes to the ruleset. I'll finish that tommorrow. However I have a question on the interpretation of the rules. During this week, Henry had enough proposal commodities to make 3 proposals, and yet submitted 10. He now, however, has enough commodities to make the other 7. My question is, what happens? Should I count them as being submitted as soon as he had enough, or back when he sent them to me originally? Actually, reading the rules very literally, it seems that he made the three, was down to 0, but because of a typo in the rules he could submit all 7 others and remain at 0 commodities. Then, when he got his bonuses for passed proposals, he got another 7 commodities in the type he didn't have enough of, so effectively he recieved at least 7 free commodities (he didn't have enough of some other types, either). What do you think? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Aug 24 23:17:50 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27096 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:17:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:17:49 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] YAU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 106 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 25 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >However I have a question on the interpretation of the rules. During this >week, Henry had enough proposal commodities to make 3 proposals, and yet >submitted 10. He now, however, has enough commodities to make the other 7. >My question is, what happens? Should I count them as being submitted as >soon as he had enough, or back when he sent them to me originally? >Actually, reading the rules very literally, it seems that he made the >three, was down to 0, but because of a typo in the rules he could submit >all 7 others and remain at 0 commodities. Then, when he got his bonuses for >passed proposals, he got another 7 commodities in the type he didn't have >enough of, so effectively he recieved at least 7 free commodities (he >didn't have enough of some other types, either). What do you think? Hrm.. I'm not sure. I don't believe that he was (at least by intent of the rules) able to submit the other 7 since he technically needed the commodities in order to submit (though I also know that that typo is one of the ones I submitted for fixing this week). I'm willing to play it either way, but would rather see a CFJ submitted making the game custom in this case explicit even if the loophole is getting patched. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From else_if@yahoo.com Tue Aug 25 08:37:16 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28777 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:37:14 -0700 Message-ID: <19980825135009.17201.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [18.62.6.47] by send102.yahoomail.com; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:50:09 PDT Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "else...if" Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] YAU To: macronomic@dragoncat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 107 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: else_if@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Note to lambda: Your webpages are a bit inconsistant on the cases page. The file is trials.html, and some pages link to it, but others call is cases and try to link to cases.html. As far as I can tell the proposals were not legally made since rule 3-1 says "A player may not make a proposal unless e has manages of each type of Proposal Commodity. If a player does not manage the materials needed, then e can not make a proposal. The aterials are lost by the player constructing the proposal as they are used up in the process." If this is the case, I resubmit the last seven proposals I sent you. Do you need me to acutally send the text? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lambda@world.std.com Tue Aug 25 10:29:08 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29240 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:29:03 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA25050; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29731; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:25:23 -0400 Date: 25 Aug 98 13:31:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] YAU From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 108 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net > As far as I can tell the proposals were not legally made since rule >3-1 says "A player may not make a proposal unless e has manages of >each type of Proposal Commodity. If a player does not manage the >materials needed, then e can not make a proposal. The aterials are >lost by the player constructing the proposal as they are used up in >the process." If this is the case, I resubmit the last seven >proposals I sent you. Do you need me to acutally send the text? Nope, I can figure it out. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Wed Aug 26 05:31:58 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [209.47.139.147]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA00381 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:31:56 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com (p38.nas1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.133.38]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA11795 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:33:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980826132301.006a4d88@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> X-Sender: newc_dan@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:23:01 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] i'm back Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 109 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Ok, i'm back now. If you havent already done so JT could you change my address on the mailing list to dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net and take me off vacation - on the list and in the game. /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Aug 26 09:19:42 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01102 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:19:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:19:41 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] i'm back In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980826132301.006a4d88@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 110 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Aidan McLoughlin wrote: >Ok, i'm back now. > >If you havent already done so JT could you change my address on the mailing >list to dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net and take me off vacation - on the list >and in the game. Such has been done. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Wed Aug 26 12:56:02 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [209.47.139.147]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02095 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:56:00 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com (p25.nas1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.133.25]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09170 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:56:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980826205357.0068c0d0@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> X-Sender: newc_dan@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:53:57 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] i got some new stuf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 111 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I just looked at the players page: I'd like to say hello to Slakko who joined while i was on vacation... Hello :-) Also i seem to have a voucher and i don't remember having one before, where did this come from? i don't remember it. Is it a birthday present? it's a bit late. did it come from a new proposal? (i havent looked at those in detail yet, if it did i will probably discover it soon so don't bother answering this :) Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From jtraub@dragoncat.net Wed Aug 26 18:56:35 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03266 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:56:35 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Vouchers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 112 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net I have updated the assets page for the proposals which were accepted on monday. I also added the vouchers for Secretaries and for RP. I make Lambda the Secretarylet of Economics and delegate to him all aspects of the SoE which deal with InterNomic. As for Dan's Voucher, I believe he gained it for a passed proposal right around the time vouchers were introduced. If that's not the case, then somewhere I gave it to him erroneously and I will check into it. I am however fairly sure that it happened more than 2 weeks ago, and therefor he has the voucher even if it was my mistake in awarding it :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 27 02:10:10 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04898 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 02:10:05 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA10381; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 05:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03773; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 05:09:32 -0400 Date: 27 Aug 98 05:15:10 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Er, stuff will be a little late... From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 113 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Well, it's 5AM here on the East coast and I've been working on the MacroNomic stuff since about 3 (when I stopped procrastinating and looking at all the cool Star Wars webpages :). However, I'm not yet finished with either the Rules or the new props, but I *promise* I'll have them done later today. I'm also beginning to work on an automated system for proposals, since I'll have less time to be the SoT once school starts, and a few Perl scripts and CGI's could really help. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Thu Aug 27 22:42:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09011 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:42:53 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA10043; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19939; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:42:26 -0400 Date: 28 Aug 98 01:48:05 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] All updated From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 114 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net OK, everything has been updated (I hope). I don't have time now to defend my votes, but I will later if anyone has any questions on them. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 28 00:33:26 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09455 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:33:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:33:25 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 115 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net In keeping with the tradition, I am going to post my votes publically, however I will wait until tomorrow to do so, so that I can read and think on the proposals. I suspect when we go to 'batches' (if we do) that votes will cease to be easily trackable publically. (unless I'm misunderstanding batches, it looks like it will install a daily update system for props). Henry, could you clarify? In the mean time, I have updated the assets page (and will upload it shortly). --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 07:33:32 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10897 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:33:30 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07310 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:33:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:34:33 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 116 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I suspect when we go to 'batches' (if we do) that votes will cease to be >easily trackable publically. (unless I'm misunderstanding batches, it >looks like it will install a daily update system for props). Henry, could >you clarify? Batches allow for daily updates, since I don't want to limit the SoT. But there's nothing forcing the SoT to update more than once a week. There will be a batch every day, but 6/7 of them could be empty. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 07:59:56 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10989 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:59:54 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26584 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:05:34 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 117 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 175:FOR 176:FOR 177:FOR 178:FOR 179:FOR. lambda and I belong to a club called the SGC. I would have prefered that it have a more stringent passage requirement with ACCEPT as the default vote, so players would only have to do anything if it bothered them, but I'll fix that next batch. 180: Mine. I did this because I don't think players who have only just begun should be able to fail other people's proposals. Only people who have been in the RP should be failing by Trotsky points. 183:FOR 184:FOR 185:FOR 186: The principle or the implementation? I know I have a bit of an obsession with long rules, but I think they make everything harder to understand. 187: I proposed this because I noticed that it's been about 40 proposals since something failed. I think if we've gotten into a rut like that, players should be encouraged to make risky proposals. 188: lambda, have I offended you in some way? 193:FOR,reluctantly. I'm not sure what public humiliation entails, and we do already have confessions. Also I can't see how it prevents judges from all disagreeing. 194:FOR -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 28 09:13:48 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11264 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:13:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:13:48 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 118 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: >>I suspect when we go to 'batches' (if we do) that votes will cease to be >>easily trackable publically. (unless I'm misunderstanding batches, it >>looks like it will install a daily update system for props). Henry, could >>you clarify? > Batches allow for daily updates, since I don't want to limit the >SoT. But there's nothing forcing the SoT to update more than once a week. >There will be a batch every day, but 6/7 of them could be empty. Okay.. the reason I was confused is that 'a batch is all the proposals that become reactive or become active 2 days in the future'. If there are daily batches, that seemed odd, but if there weren't, why did you create 6 preceding daily batches :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From atharrison@wavetek.com Fri Aug 28 09:18:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from wav.wavetek.com (wav.wavetek.com [204.94.82.12]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11292 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:18:28 -0700 Received: from sd-mta.wavetek.com (sd-mta.wavetek.com [204.94.82.17]) by wav.wavetek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA11634 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sd-mta.wavetek.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8825666E.00598F27 ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:18:13 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WAVETEK@MAILGATE From: "Andy T Harrison" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Message-ID: <8025666E.00588A35.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:18:45 +0100 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 119 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: atharrison@wavetek.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Again, not much time to consider my votes, so I vote LOYAL on everything, except 186. On 186 I vote FOR. I think this is a stonking (do you have the verb 'stonk' in the States?) good idea and if I had time would actively make more proposals along this line. It's all well and good to have a theme, but the original idea of a nomic is to play with the rules for the sake of playing with the rules. As for the subproposal in 188, I vote NONE, just to be flippin' awkward! -- The Kid From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 09:21:59 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11311 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:21:55 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20986 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:21:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:28:12 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 120 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Okay.. the reason I was confused is that 'a batch is all the proposals >that become reactive or become active 2 days in the future'. If there are >daily batches, that seemed odd, but if there weren't, why did you create 6 >preceding daily batches :) The quote you used is so that we can keep going the way we have been. It means that reactive proposals end 7 days later, and active one 5 days. The preceding ones were mostly because I wasn't sure what would happen otherwise. It talks about batches being created when another one is destroyed, and that made sure that there wouldn't be any problems. Also, if a proposal from the batch before that had gone reactive, it would have been neccessary to avoid problems. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 09:24:01 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11330 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:24:00 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18574 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8025666E.00588A35.00@sd-mta.wavetek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:30:31 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 121 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >Again, not much time to consider my votes, so I vote LOYAL on everything, >except 186. On 186 I vote FOR. I think this is a stonking (do you have the >verb 'stonk' in the States?) good idea and if I had time would actively No, but I think we can figure it out from context, at least roughly. >As for the subproposal in 188, I vote NONE, just to be flippin' awkward! Thanks for reminding me. A vote TWEAKAWAY. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 28 10:00:15 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11467 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:00:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:00:14 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 122 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: >>Okay.. the reason I was confused is that 'a batch is all the proposals >>that become reactive or become active 2 days in the future'. If there are >>daily batches, that seemed odd, but if there weren't, why did you create 6 >>preceding daily batches :) > The quote you used is so that we can keep going the way we have >been. It means that reactive proposals end 7 days later, and active one 5 >days. The preceding ones were mostly because I wasn't sure what would The thing is, the way I read it, shouldn't have been, a batch is all proposals that become active or that became reactive 2 days in the past? The phrasing you used seems to move the activation of new proposals 2 days forward, instead of pushing the reactivation back 2 days. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 10:13:46 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11559 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:13:45 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14468 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:19:56 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 123 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >The thing is, the way I read it, shouldn't have been, a batch is all >proposals that become active or that became reactive 2 days in the past? > >The phrasing you used seems to move the activation of new proposals 2 days >forward, instead of pushing the reactivation back 2 days. Oh I see what you mean. If I did it that way then reactive proposals wouldn't be in a batch for two days after they're created. Also it would mean batches would last 5 days instead of 7. What happens is that on the day a batch ends, a new batch is created with all the proposals which become reactive on that day. Then, two days later, a bunch of additional proposal become active and join that batch. 5 days after that, all those proposals become inactive (or reactive) and the cycle starts again. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 28 10:19:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11587 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:19:14 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:19:11 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 124 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Towsner wrote: > Oh I see what you mean. If I did it that way then reactive >proposals wouldn't be in a batch for two days after they're created. Also >it would mean batches would last 5 days instead of 7. What happens is that >on the day a batch ends, a new batch is created with all the proposals >which become reactive on that day. Then, two days later, a bunch of >additional proposal become active and join that batch. 5 days after that, >all those proposals become inactive (or reactive) and the cycle starts >again. Okay.. it just wasn't clear from the rule. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 28 10:54:31 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11752 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:54:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:54:31 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 125 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net P175-179 are mine 180: FOR 181: FOR 182: FOR P183 is mine 184: FOR P185 is mine 186: FOR (I think shorter rules are simpler to understand as well, I just hope we won't get carried away) 187: FOR (I really like this actually) 188: AGAINST, TWEAKAWAY (I like the tweaks part, I don't like the survey part, questions bout the rules should be settled by CFJ, not referenda (imho)) 189: FOR 190: FOR 191: AGAINST (but I could be persuaded. I just don't see the need. As far as I can tell, pamphlets are the same as papers, and nothing reduces the 'tenure' value that you instituted. 192: FOR 193: AGAINST (I don't really see the need for it) 194: FOR [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 11:03:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11792 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:03:53 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11946 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:10:23 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 126 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >188: AGAINST, TWEAKAWAY (I like the tweaks part, I don't like the survey > part, questions bout the rules should be settled by CFJ, not > referenda (imho)) This doesn't settle questions about rules. All it does is let players vote on whether a marking is legitimate. Rather than have collectivity referenda and also a referendum to determine whether a proposal is legitimately a tweak, we have one combined referendum for any markings which might be debated. >191: AGAINST (but I could be persuaded. I just don't see the need. As > far as I can tell, pamphlets are the same as papers, and nothing > reduces the 'tenure' value that you instituted. A paper has to introduce new ideas. If it doesn't, players are supposed to vote against it. A pamphlet isn't rated as highly since it doesn't require anything new, but it still adds to the game and deserves to be rewarded. You're right about messing up tenure, but that can be fixed easily (with a tweak, plug, plug). It's supposed to be that a paper gives you three months to come up with something, and a pamphlet gives you one month. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Fri Aug 28 11:13:45 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [209.47.139.147]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11845 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:13:41 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com (p49.nas1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.133.49]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28643 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:14:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980828191154.006a9808@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> X-Sender: newc_dan@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:11:54 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: [MacroNomic] votes at a glance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 127 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net it's going to take me a while to sort things out and work out whats going on but i don't want to lose any points so, with just a quick glance at the props: 175 to 194:Loyal 188 subproposal: tweakaway (what exactly does onesizefitsall do? this may have been in the origional rule but it isn't explained on lambda's website) Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 11:15:37 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11872 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:15:35 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14100 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:15:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980828191154.006a9808@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:22:10 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] votes at a glance X-archive-position: 128 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >188 subproposal: tweakaway (what exactly does onesizefitsall do? this may >have been in the origional rule but it isn't explained on lambda's website) Nothing. It means that tweak is not added as a marking. -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From lambda@world.std.com Fri Aug 28 12:43:55 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12334 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:43:50 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA05538; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA01337; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:42:59 -0400 Date: 28 Aug 98 15:48:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 129 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >180: Mine. I did this because I don't think players who have only just >begun should be able to fail other people's proposals. Only people who >have been in the RP should be failing by Trotsky points. Yes, but I've made a proposal that I think does it more cleanly (proposal 194. After all, using Trotsky points should be a Trotsky action, right?). >186: The principle or the implementation? I know I have a bit of an >obsession with long rules, but I think they make everything harder to >understand. Implementation. You never define how to determine which is the longest rule (number of words? characters? lines? paragraphs? sentences?) >187: I proposed this because I noticed that it's been about 40 proposals >since something failed. I think if we've gotten into a rut like that, >players should be encouraged to make risky proposals. I don't like having one player be able to recieve the reward because other players have made proposals that pass. For instance, if this whole batch passes, I could make a proposal that states "Lambda wins the game" and, of course, it would fail, and I'd recieve more loyalty than I started with (at the cost of a few commodities). I think perhaps players should be rewarded on their own streaks. >188: lambda, have I offended you in some way? No, I just have no idea why you made this proposal, so I voted AGAINST it just in case. Actually, now that I've read it again, more carefully, I'll consider voting FOR it. (Also, I noticed that if all of your proposals passed, you'd surpass me in loyalty, and I don't want that ;) >193:FOR,reluctantly. I'm not sure what public humiliation entails, and we >do already have confessions. Also I can't see how it prevents judges from >all disagreeing. Public humiliation is in there so that if a player commits a crime, but the judges don't really want to penalize em, they can specify public humiliation. Also, it doesn't make it so that the judges can't all disagree, but rather that the criminal must get one of the punishments if they do. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Fri Aug 28 12:47:34 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12359 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:47:32 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA06185; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA04890; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:47:19 -0400 Date: 28 Aug 98 15:52:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 130 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >193: AGAINST (I don't really see the need for it) This allows people to take away some of the objects involved in a scam (like Slakko's). If that CFJ hadn't passed, Slakko would be more powerful than any RP member, and there would be no way to take away at least some of the vote farms, besides trading. Also, my proposal adds public humiliation as a punishment, and lets the accused decide on the punishment (from the choices the judges give em) if the judges can't (so that one of their punishments does happen, rather than none). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From lambda@world.std.com Fri Aug 28 12:50:52 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12378 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:50:47 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA06677; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA07634; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:50:33 -0400 Date: 28 Aug 98 15:56:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 131 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >except 186. On 186 I vote FOR. I think this is a stonking (do you have the >verb 'stonk' in the States?) good idea and if I had time would actively Nope, I've never heard the word 'stonk', but it's pretty clear what it means from the context. --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From tows@earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 13:05:16 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12428 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:05:12 -0700 Received: from [168.191.54.230] (sdn-ar-002mabostP324.dialsprint.net [168.191.54.230]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26282 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tows@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:10:41 -0400 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Towsner Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes X-archive-position: 132 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: tows@earthlink.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >>186: The principle or the implementation? I know I have a bit of an >>obsession with long rules, but I think they make everything harder to >>understand. > >Implementation. You never define how to determine which is the longest rule >(number of words? characters? lines? paragraphs? sentences?) In lack of anything else, I assume it would be characters, since characters are a physical measurement, as opposed to a logical one. >>187: I proposed this because I noticed that it's been about 40 proposals >>since something failed. I think if we've gotten into a rut like that, >>players should be encouraged to make risky proposals. > >I don't like having one player be able to recieve the reward because other >players have made proposals that pass. For instance, if this whole batch >passes, I could make a proposal that states "Lambda wins the game" and, of >course, it would fail, and I'd recieve more loyalty than I started with (at >the cost of a few commodities). I think perhaps players should be rewarded >on their own streaks. If it's been one hundred proposals since something failed, I don't mind. Particularly since once we cross 100, we get into a game of Mornington Crescent. Everyone can gain points by passing a proposal which will obviously fail, but the longer you hold off, the more points you'll get...but the more likely it is someone else will do it first. >>188: lambda, have I offended you in some way? > >No, I just have no idea why you made this proposal, so I voted AGAINST it >just in case. Actually, now that I've read it again, more carefully, I'll >consider voting FOR it. (Also, I noticed that if all of your proposals >passed, you'd surpass me in loyalty, and I don't want that ;) The first part doesn't change anything (I know, it's a bunch of little things, so it's hard to see what it does, but it really only generalizes the collective marking to a class of markings. When a proposal is marked with a questionable marking, the players get to vote on whether the marking is legitimate) The Tweakable proposal thing (which most people seem to like) lets players make tiny proposals without getting paid for them (and presumably if players think a proposal should have been tweaked, they'll vote against it.) -- -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith From jtraub@dragoncat.net Fri Aug 28 13:40:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12563 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:40:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 133 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 28 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >>193: AGAINST (I don't really see the need for it) > >This allows people to take away some of the objects involved in a scam >(like Slakko's). If that CFJ hadn't passed, Slakko would be more powerful >than any RP member, and there would be no way to take away at least some of >the vote farms, besides trading. Also, my proposal adds public humiliation >as a punishment, and lets the accused decide on the punishment (from the >choices the judges give em) if the judges can't (so that one of their >punishments does happen, rather than none). Than any individual RP member, sure.. that's fine. He still wouldn't be able to overwhelm an RP Veto, or any 2 of the 3 RP members. --JT From dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Sat Aug 29 03:32:47 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [209.47.139.147]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA15505 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 03:32:44 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com (p35.nas1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.133.35]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA17329 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 06:33:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980829112811.006aa65c@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> X-Sender: newc_dan@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:28:11 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 134 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 15:52 28-08-98 -0400, you wrote: > >This allows people to take away some of the objects involved in a scam >(like Slakko's). If that CFJ hadn't passed, Slakko would be more powerful >than any RP member, and there would be no way to take away at least some of >the vote farms, besides trading. Also, my proposal adds public humiliation >as a punishment, and lets the accused decide on the punishment (from the >choices the judges give em) if the judges can't (so that one of their >punishments does happen, rather than none). > I seem to have missed something quite interesting, what exactly did Slakko do? /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Sat Aug 29 05:42:36 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15821 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 05:42:34 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zCkKn-0002M9-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:42:25 +0100 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:46:18 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: [MacroNomic] Votes Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 135 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net 175 LOYAL 176 AGAINST I am not comfortable with the idea of trying to reconcile "legal precedent" with "not binding". 177 LOYAL 178 LOYAL 179 FOR 180 LOYAL 181 LOYAL 182 AGAINST I don't see that all this "pre-emptive" and "post-emptive" marking actually provides much of a benefit. 183 LOYAL 184 LOYAL 185 LOYAL 186 FOR 187 FOR 188 LOYAL, NONE 189 AGAINST 190 LOYAL 191 LOYAL 192 AGAINST Doesn't the RP have enough oppression to do already? 193 AGAINST 194 LOYAL From lambda@world.std.com Sat Aug 29 10:31:06 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16666 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:31:04 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA11009; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29869; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:30:51 -0400 Date: 29 Aug 98 13:36:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 136 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >176 AGAINST > I am not comfortable with the idea of trying to reconcile "legal > precedent" with "not binding". If you'll notice, that's the way it is already. Legal precedent still comes after game custom in terms of importance, so it's not that big a deal. >192 AGAINST > Doesn't the RP have enough oppression to do already? Nope. :) But really, this proposal doesn't give any more power to the RP. Everyone votes on the Scams. >193 AGAINST Why? --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From dcr24@hermes.cam.ac.uk Sat Aug 29 10:33:39 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16690 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:33:38 -0700 Received: from dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.141.151]) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zCosR-0001SN-00 for macronomic@dragoncat.net; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:33:27 +0100 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:37:22 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Richer To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: dcr24@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 137 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dcr24@cam.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 29 Aug 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: > >193 AGAINST > > Why? I like the idea of judges having to agree on the sentence. -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator From lambda@world.std.com Sat Aug 29 10:36:24 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16742 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:36:22 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA11535; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03199; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:36:09 -0400 Date: 29 Aug 98 13:41:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 138 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net >I seem to have missed something quite interesting, what exactly did Slakko do? He joined the game, got his vote farms and commodities, left the game, joined again, and, because of an ambiguity in the rules, claimed that he recieved 10 more Acres of vote farm in addition to the 10 he had recived initially. However, a CFJ was passed which managed to give a reason why this was not the case; see the cases page for more info. Perhaps we should have some type of newspaper in MacroNomic to fill people in on this kind of thing; you know, the "Regular Macron" or something (and of course it would be quite irregular). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Sat Aug 29 11:15:15 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16902 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:15:15 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:15:15 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 139 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: >175 LOYAL >176 AGAINST > I am not comfortable with the idea of trying to reconcile "legal > precedent" with "not binding". If you read the current rule that is already the case, all I did here is replace the current wording of 'They set legal precedent. They are not however binding and have no effect on game state in and of themselves.' with 'Such text sets legal precedent. Such text is not however binding and has no effect on game state in and of itself' I cleaned up the wording is all. The intent btw, is for examples to show legislative intent and thus give weight to prefering one interpretation over another. >192 AGAINST > Doesn't the RP have enough oppression to do already? Heresy :) --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Sun Aug 30 09:45:57 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [209.47.139.147]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21073 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:45:46 -0700 Received: from sounds.u-net.com (p10.nas1.is2.u-net.net [194.119.133.10]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA26383 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:46:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980829195751.006abbd4@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net> X-Sender: newc_dan@pop.newcastle.crosswinds.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:57:51 +0100 To: macronomic@dragoncat.net From: Aidan McLoughlin Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Votes In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 140 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: dan@newcastle.crosswinds.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net At 11:15 29-08-98 -0700, you wrote: >192 AGAINST > Doesn't the RP have enough oppression to do already? > you sound suspiciously like a western capitalist scum-bag comrad. I think perhaps that you are sounding like an enemy of the people. Perhaps i should send round some friends to check? :) Dan /================================================================\ | Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. | | But on the other hand, you have different fingers. -- :) | \================================================================/ From lambda@world.std.com Mon Aug 31 22:02:06 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28581 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:02:04 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA13089; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 01:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.114.8.180] (door1.lotus.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA13060; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 01:01:38 -0400 Date: 1 Sep 98 01:07:02 -0400 Subject: [MacroNomic] Major Complications in Proposals From: "Brian Campbell" To: macronomic@dragoncat.net X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 141 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: lambda@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net Well, we have what I just realized are major problems in the rules/proposals. First, I buy an extra acre of vote farms (before anything happens to the proposals), just to be on the safe side. I think that I'm still the Active Secretarylet of Friendship (The Kid never explicitly, that I can find, said otherwise). Also, there were many typos in proposal 181, so that it said: QUOTE Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-1 with "The Secretary of Truth has 5 Official Farms." Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-1 with "The Secretary of Friendship has 3 Official Farms." Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-1 with "The Secretary of Economics has 5 Official Farms." Add the following to the end of rule 1-10, "The Secretary of Justice, Secretary of the University, and the Secretary of Games each receive 2 Official Farms." QUOTE Instead of what it meant: NEWQUOTE Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-0-1 with "The Secretary of Truth has 5 Official Farms." Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-0-2 with "The Secretary of Friendship has 3 Official Farms." Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-0-3 with "The Secretary of Economics has 5 Official Farms." Add the following to the end of rule 1-0-10, "The Secretary of Justice, Secretary of the University, and the Secretary of Games each receive 2 Official Farms." NEWQUOTE Now I interpreted this as a spelling error, and therefore corrected it in the proposals and the rules. However, I then realized that because I was still the Active Secretarylet of Friendship, I am the one that can use the 3 official farms. However, this rests on the reasoning that changing 1-1 to what Henry really meant was merely correcting a spelling error. However, if this reasoning doesn't hold, then the only people to recive any type of compensation by this new rule are JT and Henry (the SoE, SoJ, SoU, SoG). Because of this question, though, it is not possible to determine the results of the voting for any later proposals. So what I've done is follow my line of logic in determining the results of the proposals, but not update the Rules until we can sort this out (also since it would take a long time to make all the modifications to the rules from 20 proposals anyways). --- Brian Campbell (AKA lambda) Visit my webpage: http://world.std.com/~campbell/Brian/ Visit the Latin Club webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/ Visit the MacroNomic webpage: http://world.std.com/~lambda/macronomic/ ---------- Nihil sub sole novum. From jtraub@dragoncat.net Mon Aug 31 23:19:14 1998 Received: Listar v0.110a - handled for list macronomic (macronomic@dragoncat.net) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28812 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:19:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:19:14 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: macronomic@dragoncat.net Subject: Re: [MacroNomic] Major Complications in Proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 142 X-listar-version: Listar v0.110a Sender: macronomic-bounce@dragoncat.net X-original-sender: jtraub@dragoncat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: macronomic@dragoncat.net On 1 Sep 1998, Brian Campbell wrote: >QUOTE > Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-1 with "The Secretary of Truth >has 5 Official Farms." > Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-1 with "The Secretary of >Friendship has 3 Official Farms." > Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-1 with "The Secretary of >Economics has 5 Official Farms." > > Add the following to the end of rule 1-10, "The Secretary of Justice, >Secretary of the University, and the Secretary of Games each receive 2 >Official Farms." >QUOTE > >Instead of what it meant: > >NEWQUOTE > Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-0-1 with "The Secretary of Truth >has 5 Official Farms." > Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-0-2 with "The Secretary of >Friendship has 3 Official Farms." > Replace the last paragraph of rule 1-0-3 with "The Secretary of >Economics has 5 Official Farms." > > Add the following to the end of rule 1-0-10, "The Secretary of Justice, >Secretary of the University, and the Secretary of Games each receive 2 >Official Farms." >NEWQUOTE I'd have to say (and I don't like it even though it benefits me) that in fact the last paragraph of rule 1-1 (the only paragraph) got trashed unfortunately, since the english was pretty explicit. Even though you and I know that it is in fact an error, I don't think you have the leeway to reinterpret this. Had he named the section as well as just giving the number, I think you would have been okay, but in the current situation I believe that secretarylets got munched and only else...if and I got the farms benefit. >Now I interpreted this as a spelling error, and therefore corrected it in >the proposals and the rules. However, I then realized that because I was >still the Active Secretarylet of Friendship, I am the one that can use the >3 official farms. However, this rests on the reasoning that changing 1-1 to >what Henry really meant was merely correcting a spelling error. However, if >this reasoning doesn't hold, then the only people to recive any type of >compensation by this new rule are JT and Henry (the SoE, SoJ, SoU, SoG). >Because of this question, though, it is not possible to determine the >results of the voting for any later proposals. So what I've done is follow >my line of logic in determining the results of the proposals, but not >update the Rules until we can sort this out (also since it would take a >long time to make all the modifications to the rules from 20 proposals >anyways). Submit a CFJ I'd say, but I think that the 'correct' interpretation would be since section 1-1 was clear and a valid section, then the erroneous change occured. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------]