From owner-nomic Wed Apr 26 13:40:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id NAA18450 for nomic-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:32:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-5.iastate.edu (pop-5.iastate.edu [129.186.1.65]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA17560 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:32:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eagle.ACNS.Colostate.EDU (eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by pop-5.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26008 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:32:48 -0500 Received: from yuma.ACNS.Colostate.EDU (yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.64]) by eagle.ACNS.Colostate.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA50590; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:32:42 -0600 Received: from holly.colostate.edu (res099037.HALLS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.99.37]) by yuma.ACNS.Colostate.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA113710; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:31:25 -0600 Message-ID: <390735FC.4816A157@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:31:24 -0600 From: Xylen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "acka@ackanomic.org" Subject: Nomic: Ping Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu ? From owner-nomic Wed Apr 26 14:10:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id OAA18648 for nomic-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:06:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-3.iastate.edu (pop-3.iastate.edu [129.186.1.63]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id OAA18237 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:06:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from isua4.iastate.edu (isua4.iastate.edu [129.186.1.204]) by pop-3.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16910 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:06:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (mjkuhns@localhost) by isua4.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA22909 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:06:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004261906.OAA22909@isua4.iastate.edu> To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:31:24 MDT." <390735FC.4816A157@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:06:17 CDT From: Matthew J Kuhns Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu bwahahahahaha... get real. Berserker is dead. Joel Giveth, Joel Taketh Away. From owner-nomic Wed Apr 26 22:10:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id WAA22766 for nomic-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:05:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-2.iastate.edu (pop-2.iastate.edu [129.186.1.62]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA22450 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:05:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mach1.wlu.ca (mach1.wlu.ca [192.54.242.17]) by pop-2.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00479 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:05:23 -0500 Received: from localhost (wald7330@localhost) by mach1.wlu.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA06091 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:05:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Waldron To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-Reply-To: <200004261906.OAA22909@isua4.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu If there are enough of us hangers-on who are interested, we could start up a Nomic of our own. We could try to make one that is resilient to both desertions by players and conflicting interpretations of individual rules. DW On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, Matthew J Kuhns wrote: > bwahahahahaha... get real. > > Berserker is dead. Joel Giveth, Joel Taketh Away. > From owner-nomic Wed Apr 26 22:20:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id WAA22873 for nomic-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:44 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-3.iastate.edu (pop-3.iastate.edu [129.186.1.63]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA22887 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu (pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu [129.186.62.173]) by pop-3.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19711 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (kortbein@localhost) by pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA30130 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004270314.WAA30130@pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu> To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:05:22 EDT." Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:40 CDT From: Josh Kortbein Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu Dan Waldron writes: > > >If there are enough of us hangers-on who are interested, we could start up >a Nomic of our own. We could try to make one that is resilient to both >desertions by players and conflicting interpretations of individual rules. Oh, also: if you think you can write rules in natural language, and still avoid conflicting interpretations, you're a fool. Josh -- josh blog listening log: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kortbein/blog/ From owner-nomic Wed Apr 26 22:30:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id WAA22150 for nomic-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-2.iastate.edu (pop-2.iastate.edu [129.186.1.62]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA22801 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu (pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu [129.186.62.173]) by pop-2.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02029 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (kortbein@localhost) by pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA30265 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004270314.WAA30265@pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu> To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:05:22 EDT." Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:14:08 CDT From: Josh Kortbein Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu Dan Waldron writes: > > >If there are enough of us hangers-on who are interested, we could start up >a Nomic of our own. We could try to make one that is resilient to both >desertions by players and conflicting interpretations of individual rules. I note, since, uncharacteristically, Joel hasn't (can I get some more commas here?), that Joel indeed already has plans along those lines. Also involving a nifty dedicated nomic server. However, less than two weeks remain before the end of finals. Expect nothing before then. Josh -- josh blog listening log: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kortbein/blog/ From owner-nomic Wed Apr 26 22:40:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id WAA21226 for nomic-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:25:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-4.iastate.edu (pop-4.iastate.edu [129.186.1.64]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA22209 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:25:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mach1.wlu.ca (mach1.wlu.ca [192.54.242.17]) by pop-4.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16508 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:25:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (wald7330@localhost) by mach1.wlu.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA07940 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:25:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Waldron To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-Reply-To: <200004270314.WAA30130@pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, Josh Kortbein wrote: > > Dan Waldron writes: > > > > > >If there are enough of us hangers-on who are interested, we could start up > >a Nomic of our own. We could try to make one that is resilient to both > >desertions by players and conflicting interpretations of individual rules. > > Oh, also: if you think you can write rules in natural language, > and still avoid conflicting interpretations, you're a fool. > I didn't say kill off conflicts. They are one of the aspects that makes the game enjoyable. Perhaps conflicting interpretations can be made into something which drives the game, rather than something that continually threatens to destroy it. DW From owner-nomic Thu Apr 27 00:50:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id AAA24313 for nomic-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:46:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-5.iastate.edu (pop-5.iastate.edu [129.186.1.65]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA24579 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:46:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu (pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu [129.186.62.173]) by pop-5.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03887 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:46:01 -0500 Received: from localhost (kortbein@localhost) by pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA30560 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:46:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004270546.AAA30560@pv3ead.vincent.iastate.edu> To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:25:52 EDT." Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:45:59 CDT From: Josh Kortbein Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu Dan Waldron writes: > > >On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, Josh Kortbein wrote: > >> >> Dan Waldron writes: >> > >> > >> >If there are enough of us hangers-on who are interested, we could start up >> >a Nomic of our own. We could try to make one that is resilient to both >> >desertions by players and conflicting interpretations of individual rules. >> >> Oh, also: if you think you can write rules in natural language, >> and still avoid conflicting interpretations, you're a fool. >> > >I didn't say kill off conflicts. They are one of the aspects that >makes the game enjoyable. Perhaps conflicting interpretations can be made >into something which drives the game, rather than something that >continually threatens to destroy it. My memory may be hazy, but I think we had our share of both sorts of conflict. -- josh blog listening log: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kortbein/blog/ From owner-nomic Thu Apr 27 01:50:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id BAA22566 for nomic-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:42:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-4.iastate.edu (pop-4.iastate.edu [129.186.1.64]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id BAA25417 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:42:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lyon-183-134.res.iastate.edu (lyon-183-134.res.iastate.edu [129.186.183.134]) by pop-4.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA23082 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:42:54 -0500 Received: (qmail 12332 invoked by uid 500); 27 Apr 2000 06:41:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20000427064151.12330.qmail@lyon-183-134.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Re: Nomic: Ping In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:05:22 EDT." From: Joel Uckelman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:41:51 -0500 Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu > > > If there are enough of us hangers-on who are interested, we could start up > a Nomic of our own. We could try to make one that is resilient to both > desertions by players and conflicting interpretations of individual rules. > > DW I am very interested in restarting, but won't have time to do anything until classes end, as Josh noted. I attribute the demise of Berserker to both (1) my inability to keep timely records for it, and (2) some residual problems from the initial ruleset. Before we start again, we should address these. With regard to (1), a note on my plans: as soon as the semester is over--that is, the end of next week--I intend to establish a server of my own to host our game--which means that I will no longer be saddled by the limitations of our current host, the university, and will be able to implement the bookkeeping devices I had originally planned. This alone will help keep the administrative side of things running smoothly, but I would be naive to think that it will solve all such problems. I've noticed that many nomics handle administrative duties by distributing small tasks to everyone, so everyone has a stake in keeping records current but no one becomes overwhelmed. Ideally, what I would like to see happen is a melding of our system with a distributed one, i.e. something in which officers would be responsible for administrative tasks, but would be encouraged to delegate tedious ones to my labor-saving scripts as I write them. That way, in the event that something stops working, or I don't have enough time to make necessary changes, we can temporarily fall back on doing things by hand and continue on as normal. Additionally, this has the added benefit of encouraging others in the game who may be adept at programming to assist in task automation. With regard to (2), I think that before we start we should hammer out an initial ruleset better suited to what we want than Suber's original, perhaps with clearer definitions, etc. I have given this some thought, and encourage everyone to do the same. So I propose that we do something along the lines of a constitutional convention between now and when I have the server ready in order to develop an initial rulest that will get us off to a better start. Specifically, the judicial rules and general rulest organization are concerns of mine; no doubt everyone else has suggestions as well. Make no mistake, I am eager to play again--but I was hoping to hold this off until I once again have time to deal with it. All the same, I hope a discussion of this sort erupts in the next few days. -- J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~uckelman/ From owner-nomic Thu Apr 27 14:50:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id OAA32761 for nomic-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:41:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: majordomo.iastate.edu: Processed from queue /local2/spool/majordomo/nomic Received: from pop-2.iastate.edu (pop-2.iastate.edu [129.186.1.62]) by majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id OAA31597 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:41:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mach1.wlu.ca (mach1.wlu.ca [192.54.242.17]) by pop-2.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23749 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:41:08 -0500 Received: from localhost (wald7330@localhost) by mach1.wlu.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA18239 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:41:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Waldron To: nomic@iastate.edu Subject: Nomic: Constituional Convention In-Reply-To: <20000427064151.12330.qmail@lyon-183-134.res.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-nomic@iastate.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic@iastate.edu Okay. I would like to consider the idea of merging the rulemaking system with the judicial system. Game custom can go unwritten until it is called into question by a Call For Ruling, at which point it is appended to the rule to which it applies as a sub-rule. In the case where a player either a: dissagrees with the interpretation of other rules or b: feels that something is lacking in the ruleset, they would submit a CFR describing the problem and the changes they feel need to be made.. Other players could then propose rules that would solve the described problem. We would then vote on the rules, and if one recieved enough support it would be adopted. Here is an attempt I have made to start a ruleset. I think it could actually be played from this point but we should probably add some other rules first. I didn't actually get past rule 1. 1 Rules may be changed with the support of a majority of players. 1.1 A player may submit a CFR to the public forum. Other players may then submit proposals on that CFR to the public forum. The proposals are voted on, and if any proposal recieves votes totalling more than half the number of players, and more votes than any other CFR, the rule changes described therein will be applied to the ruleset. 1.1.1 The player that submitted a CFR may not submit proposals on it. 1.1.2 Votes for any proposal are not counted until two weeks have passed from the submission of the CFR on which that proposal was made. 1.1.3 "CFR" stands for "Call For Ruling". 1.1.4 Rules may not be changed except as described in rule 1.1 DW