________________________________________ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 19:46:43 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: proposal 393 revision ------------------- Amend Rule 309, paragraph 1, section 3 to read: "3. The informal proposal must receive a two-thirds majority of favorable votes from eligible voters if any player requests a vote on the matter. If no such request is made within 36 hours of the informal proposal, said proposal is considered to have passed automatically." ------------------- This waives the requirement of voting on new players unless someone actually wants to take a vote on the matter. Based on past experience, I don't think we're likely to reject anyone (although it should be kept as an option), and if no one objects, there seems to be little reason to vote on the matter. Not only will this streamline the addition of new players by requiring votes only when there is some contention, it will also make relentlessly pestering players to vote on adding new players unnecessary. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 19:59:09 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: revision on P388 At 12:19 AM 12/31/98 , you wrote: >Uckelman wrote: >>At 01:39 AM 12/28/98 , you wrote: >>> >>>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>>------- >>>>Players sending votes on Proposals to nomic@iastate.edu shall be fined 10 >>>>points upon doing so. >>>>------- >>> >>>I am in favor of making this fine dependent on the number of individual >>>proposals' votes screwed up as a result of the vote-sending-to-list-ness. >> >>further revision: >> >>Players sending votes on Proposals to nomic@iastate.edu shall be fined >>(4(ln x) + 1) points, rounded to the nearest point, where x is the number >>of proposals on which votes were sent to the list. >> >>----------------------------------- >> >>1. The fine climbs rapidly, but then levels off at 10 on 10 proposals, and >>only climbs to 13 for 20 proposals. >> >>2. It contains a natural log, which I'm sure makes Josh like it more. > >While appreciating the careful calibration of this penalty, I'm not so sure >the basic premise is good. > >The idea here is that how we vote can be "contaminated" and such >contamination is bad. I think that the information of who voted how is >properly owned by the vote caster. If they would like to strategically >deploy this information (or even sell it) they should be able to. > >If this changes how people vote, all the better: value recieved for valued >released to the public domain. > >Tom Mueller Hmmm. I want to think about this some more. I'm setting P388 to inactive for now. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:57:29 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: voting reminder Voting on all active proposals begins at 23:31 CST tomorrow. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 16:49:11 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Nomic: Setting 391, 392 inactive I'm setting 391, 392 inactive for now. -- The best material model of a cat is another, or preferably the same, cat. - A. Rosenblueth ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 16:51:07 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Nomic: Revision The Uckelman amendment (to whatever prop this was): Upon a Case becoming unappealable, Judges having ruled in accord with the final ruling on the case shall each receive 3 points iff the final ruling is either TRUE or FALSE. Josh -- The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a convenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell. - St. Augustine ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 19:45:58 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: faq I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that anyone asks any particular questions frequently... J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 19:50:57 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: faq Joel D Uckelman writes: >I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that >anyone asks any particular questions frequently... Does anybody ask ANY questions frequently? -- By all means, please tell. I can name 4 famous Dutch lensgrinders, but only one qualifies as a philosopher. Not sure if more than one were Jewish. - R. ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:06:27 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: faq At 07:50 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that >>anyone asks any particular questions frequently... > >Does anybody ask ANY questions frequently? No. Maybe I'm experiencing FAQ envy. I see that some other nomics have them. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:18:17 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: faq Joel D Uckelman writes: >At 07:50 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: >> >>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that >>>anyone asks any particular questions frequently... >> >>Does anybody ask ANY questions frequently? > >No. Maybe I'm experiencing FAQ envy. I see that some other nomics have them. It seems sort of pointless to have a faq for such a well-organized nomic. -- Since when the fuck was a long only two fucking bytes? I crap bigger than 16 bits. - Jon ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:22:44 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: faq At 08:18 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>At 07:50 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: >>> >>>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>>I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that >>>>anyone asks any particular questions frequently... >>> >>>Does anybody ask ANY questions frequently? >> >>No. Maybe I'm experiencing FAQ envy. I see that some other nomics have them. > >It seems sort of pointless to have a faq for such a well-organized >nomic. I was thinking it would be directed at the I-followed-a-link-to-this-website-and-maybe-this-looks-interesting crowd, stuff like "What is Berserker Nomic?" and "How do I join?". J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:31:00 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: faq Joel D Uckelman writes: >At 08:18 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: >>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>At 07:50 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: >>>> >>>>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>>>I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that >>>>>anyone asks any particular questions frequently... >>>> >>>>Does anybody ask ANY questions frequently? >>> >>>No. Maybe I'm experiencing FAQ envy. I see that some other nomics have them. >> >>It seems sort of pointless to have a faq for such a well-organized >>nomic. > >I was thinking it would be directed at the >I-followed-a-link-to-this-website-and-maybe-this-looks-interesting crowd, >stuff like "What is Berserker Nomic?" and "How do I join?". Surely there's room for nekkid pictures in such a faq. -- "An intellectual is someone whose mind watches itself." - Albert Camus ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 21:05:32 CST From: "Mr. Grinch" Subject: Nomic: FAQs I've got a frequently asked question: Where's all the nudey pictures on this damn site? Damon __________ The glazed eye of the tired reader resting for a second on the above title will presume it to be merely metaphorical. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:09:29 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: FAQs At 09:05 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: > >I've got a frequently asked question: > >Where's all the nudey pictures on this damn site? > > >Damon Yes, but that's a question asked with frequency by only you and Josh. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 00:26:05 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: FAQs Joel D Uckelman writes: >Yes, but that's a question asked with frequency by only you and Josh. A FAQ's a FAQ. Give us FAQs and nothing but. -- Abstractness, sometimes hurled as a reproach at mathematics, is its chief glory and its surest title to practical usefulness. It is also the source of such beauty as may spring from mathematics - E.T. Bell ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 09:11:16 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: faq At 07:50 PM 1/2/99 CST, you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>I was just thinking that we should have a Berserker Nomic FAQ. Not that >>anyone asks any particular questions frequently... > >Does anybody ask ANY questions frequently? Does anybody ask _any_ questions frequently? And will this be included in the FAQ as quite possibly the only actual frequently asked question? And has this joke ever been done on any FAQ before? Tom Mueller mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 10:52:29 -0600 From: Andrew Proescholdt Subject: Re: Nomic: FAQs Where's all the nudey pictures on this damn site? At 11:09 PM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:05 PM 1/2/99 , you wrote: >> >>I've got a frequently asked question: >> >>Where's all the nudey pictures on this damn site? >> >> >>Damon > >Yes, but that's a question asked with frequency by only you and Josh. > > >J. Uckelman >uckelman@iastate.edu > ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:43:23 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: Subers Does anyone remember what the rationale was for new players receiving only 500 Subers upon joining the game instead of the 1000 Subers that the rest of us have? (q.v. R347/1) I keep thinking that this doesn't seem fair to our soon-to-be player Tom Knight, especially since we haven't done anything with our Subers yet. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:17:25 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Subers Joel D Uckelman writes: >Does anyone remember what the rationale was for new players receiving only >500 Subers upon joining the game instead of the 1000 Subers that the rest >of us have? (q.v. R347/1) Because we are the fortunate sons (with apologies to Lisa). Josh -- ... it seems to me that teaching critical thinking via popular-art examples holds the potential for making people both capable of critical thought and inclined toward it, whereas teaching it through _The Scarlet Letter_ just makes people associate the process with unpleasantness. - Glenn McDonald ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 16:08:56 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: proposal 389 revision 1. Add "Foreign Minister" after "Administrator" to the set of Offices in Rule 229. 2. Create the following rule from the V.M.MOLOTOV delimited text: V.M.MOLOTOV The Foreign Minister is an elected Official whose duties consist of: 1. Representing Berserker Nomic in dealings with other nomics and in metanomics and nomic organizations of which Berserker Nomic is a member. 2. Submitting a turnly report on relevant matters to the mailing list. 3. Proposing treaties and agreements as necessary. The Foreign Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn he/she holds Office. V.M.MOLOTOV J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 16:11:36 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Subers At 03:17 PM 1/3/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>Does anyone remember what the rationale was for new players receiving only >>500 Subers upon joining the game instead of the 1000 Subers that the rest >>of us have? (q.v. R347/1) > >Because we are the fortunate sons (with apologies to Lisa). > >Josh Which reminds me -- I wonder how many of those in Limbo are still playing. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:31:34 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: voting Voting has begun. The ballot will be mailed shortly. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:41:19 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: ballot P383 Amend Rule 222/2 to read: Proposers receive (20)(favorable votes on the Proposal/total non-neutral votes on the Proposal) points, rounded to the nearest integer, for each adopted Proposal. ------------------------------------- P384 There exists a homunculus, hereafter known as Osborn's Demon, which posesses the right to vote, during the ordained voting period, for any and every proposal up for voting. Osborn's Demon shall vote in the following manner: If there is a single player whose score in points is strictly less than those of every other player, then Osborn's Demon shall vote as that single player does. If there are two or more players whose scores are equal, while still less than those of every other player, then Osborn's Demon shall vote as do a simple majority of those players whose scores are minimal. If those players do not vote in such a way as to determine a simple majority of any one vote, then Osborn's Demon shall vote with the plurality of those players. If all players' scores are equal, Osborn's Demon shall vote as in the previous paragraph. Players in limbo shall not be considered eligible when determining minimal scores in the paragraphs above. Osborn's Demon shall vote in a manner consistent with these rules, on every proposal up for vote. The Demon's votes shall be considered as cast immediately after the player or players posessing minimal score cast their vote(s). If there is one player with minimal score, and that player auto-abstains, the Demon shall also auto-abstain. If there is more than one player with minimal score, the Demon shall vote as above as soon as a plurality among those with minimal score is determined. If no such plurality is determined before such time as auto-abstentions are cast, the Demon shall auto-abstain. For the purposes of vote tabulation and voting period length determination, Osborn's Demon is considered an "eligible voter." This rule takes precedence over all rules concerned with voting. ---------------------------------- P385 Proposals that, should they pass, would reward or penalize players voting on them, are prohibited. ---------------------------------- P386 The following characters: [ ] { } are considered "reserved characters" when appearing in proposals and rules in ways defined below. Brackets: Excepting any text prior to and including this sentence in this rule, any text appearing within doubled square brackets ("[[" and "]]") shall be considered "comment" text. Comment text shall not have the force of rule; its purpose is solely elucidative or demonstrative. Braces: Excepting any text prior to and including this sentence in this rule, any text appearing within double braces ("{{" and "}}") shall be considered "self-deleting" text. As soon as a proposal containing self-deleting text is passed into rule, the following shall happen, in the following order: (1) Any self-deleting text in the rule shall have its effect. (2) Any self-deleting text, along with its respective braces, shall be deleted from the rule. [[This provides a regular way in which to add self-removing clauses to rules.]] This rule takes precedence over all other rules governing the texts of rules. -------------------------------- P387 Replace "impossiblity" in Rule 317/1 with "impossibility". Replace "privelaged" and "direcly" in Rule 326/2 with "privileged" and "directly", respectively. Replace "posess" in Rule 346/1 with "possess". Replace "compontent" in Rule 347/1 with "component". ------------------------------------ P389 1. Add "Foreign Minister" after "Administrator" to the set of Offices in Rule 229. 2. Create the following rule from the V.M.MOLOTOV delimited text: V.M.MOLOTOV The Foreign Minister is an elected Official whose duties consist of: 1. Representing Berserker Nomic in dealings with other nomics and in metanomics and nomic organizations of which Berserker Nomic is a member. 2. Submitting a turnly report on relevant matters to the mailing list. 3. Proposing treaties and agreements as necessary. The Foreign Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn he/she holds Office. V.M.MOLOTOV ----------------------------- P390 Upon a Case becoming unappealable, Judges having ruled in accord with the final ruling on the case shall each receive 3 points iff the final ruling is either TRUE or FALSE. ----------------------------- P393 Amend Rule 309, paragraph 1, section 3 to read: "3. The informal proposal must receive a two-thirds majority of favorable votes from eligible voters if any player requests a vote on the matter. If no such request is made within 36 hours of the informal proposal, said proposal is considered to have passed." ------------------------------ P394 Elected Offices shall be filled by an election to be held concurrently with the voting period of every fifth turn, or by a special election in the case that an elected Office becomes vacant before then. Players may publicly nominate any consenting Player, including him/herself, for any elected Office. Nominations close with the start of the election, either at the start of the Proposal voting period of every fifth turn, 48 hours after an office becomes vacant, or 48 hours after an Officeholder loses a Vote of Confidence, as appropriate. If no nominations are received for an elected Office by the time nominations have closed, the current Officeholder retains the position. In the absence of a current Officeholder for an elected Office, the Administrator fills the Office until the next scheduled election. The nominee receiving a majority of votes for each elected Office shall hold that Office during the next term. If no nominee for an elected Office receives a majority of votes cast, the nominee (or nominees, in the case of a tie) receiving the fewest votes is removed from the ballot, unless so doing would leave fewer than two remaining nominees, and a new vote is taken to fill that elected Office using standard Proposal voting procedures. This process is repeated until the elected Office is filled. ------------------------------- P395 Add as paragraph 2 to Rule 229: “Players may resign from any Offices they hold at any time.” ------------------------------- P396 Any player may call for a Vote of Confidence on any elected Official at any time except a) during an election to fill the Office in question, and b) during another Vote of Confidence on the same Official. Votes of Confidence are conducted using standard Proposal voting procedures. If a simple majority of votes cast are negative, the Players have lost confidence in the Officeholder and an election is immediately called to fill the elected Office. --------------------------------- J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:53:56 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: whitespace I just noticed that there were some problems with whitespace in the ballot. Disregard all strange gaps therein. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:59:45 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: My Votes to the List 383 No 384 Yes 385 No 386 Yes 387 Abstain 388 No 389 Abstain 390 No 393 Yes 394 Abstain 395 No 396 Abstain Damon __________ A certain sweetness of temperament was uppermost on his list, a flexible mind (though not one incapable of holding a firm opinion), and perhaps a sense of mankind's insignificance in the totality of the universe. The ability to apply order to the world would also be handy in a wife. -- George Harrar ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:17:16 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: My Votes to the List At 10:59 AM 1/4/99 , Damon wrote: >388 No P388 wasn't up for voting. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:29:54 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: voting Voting is still open for another 2 hours, so vote if you haven't. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:00:02 CST From: Nicholas C Osborn Subject: Nomic: one less I wish to remove myself from Berserker Nomic. The game has been great, but I've lost track with what's going on. Maybe I'll get back in some other time. I sincerely hope that I have left a legacy of absurdity that will be carried on by other Players. My regards, n P.S. Does this mean that Osborn has to move out of the Black Box? ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:20:51 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: voting results Here's the voting results: P383 passed (3-1-0-2). P384 passed (4-0-0-2). P385 passed (3-1-0-2). P386 passed (3-1-0-2). P387 passed (3-0-1-2). P389 passed (2-1-1-2). P390 passed (2-1-1-2). P393 passed (4-0-0-2). P394 passed (2-1-1-2). P395 passed (3-1-0-2). P396 passed (2-1-1-2). J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:33:16 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: new player Tom Knight is now officially a player of Berserker Nomic. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:53:12 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: scoring Here's the scoring breakdown: +109 Joel Uckelman (+15 [P383], +20 [P387], +13 [P389], +20 [P393], +13 [P394], +15 [P395], +13 [P396]) +63 Josh Kortbein (+20 [P384], +15 [P385], +15 [P386], +13 [P390]) +31 Damon Luloff (+8 [P383], +8 [P385], +7 [P390], +8 [P395]) +29 Ed Proescholdt (+8 [P386], +7 [P389], +7 [P394], +7 [P396]) J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 13:37:40 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: my bad ed, not tom. i can't believe tom's not voting. Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 13:35:08 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: Wowie Four people voting. Would that be Josh Joel Me Tom by chance? Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:29:09 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie At 01:35 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: > >Four people voting. Would that be > >Josh >Joel >Me >[Ed] > >by chance? > >Damon Yep. Tom Plagge is away skiing. I'm not sure why Mueller hasn't voted the last two times. Schroeder probably didn't wake up in time or something. Nick just quit, and everyone else is in Limbo. The voting breakdown is now on the page under "Voting". J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:32:47 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: election time Nominations are now open (for the next 48 hours) for the office of Foreign Minister. See Rule 389 for more details on the position; see Rule 394 for how elections are to be conducted. I nominate Tom Mueller as a candidate for Foreign Minister. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:40:27 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: thoughts Does anyone other than me think the second paragraph of Rule 305 is a bad idea? "If a simple majority of the votes for a proposal are abstentions, including automatic abstentions, then the proposal fails. Such proposals are not explicitly "defeated" in the normal sense, and bookkeepers may wish to note this." We almost had this situation during the last voting period. The only way this is likely to come into effect is through a combination of abstentions and auto-abstentions. In this case, yes - 3 no - 0 abstentions - 1 a-abstentions - 3 the proposal would fail. However, if the person who abstained had voted AGAINST the proposal, it would have passed! Changing a vote to a "no" should never cause a proposal to pass. Does anyone else find this disturbing? J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:13:08 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie J. Uckelman wrote: >At 01:35 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >> >>Four people voting. Would that be >> >>Josh >>Joel >>Me >>[Ed] >> >>by chance? >> >>Damon > >Yep. Tom Plagge is away skiing. I'm not sure why Mueller hasn't voted the >last two times. Schroeder probably didn't wake up in time or something. >Nick just quit, and everyone else is in Limbo. It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a week to vote). Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. Tom Mueller mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:29:16 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie At 03:13 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >J. Uckelman wrote: >>At 01:35 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >>> >>>Four people voting. Would that be >>> >>>Josh >>>Joel >>>Me >>>[Ed] >>> >>>by chance? >>> >>>Damon >> >>Yep. Tom Plagge is away skiing. I'm not sure why Mueller hasn't voted the >>last two times. Schroeder probably didn't wake up in time or something. >>Nick just quit, and everyone else is in Limbo. > >It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already >over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a >week to vote). Would it be better if it were more like 48 hours? >Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions >for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do >anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be >counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and >significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. Rule 113 (?) allows him to quit -- by my reading, it shouldn't be a problem. What does everyone else think? >Tom Mueller >mueller4@sonic.net J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:37:05 -0600 From: Andrew Proescholdt Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie At 03:29 PM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 03:13 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >>J. Uckelman wrote: >>>At 01:35 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >>>> >>>>Four people voting. Would that be >>>> >>>>Josh >>>>Joel >>>>Me >>>>[Ed] >>>> >>>>by chance? >>>> >>>>Damon >>> >>>Yep. Tom Plagge is away skiing. I'm not sure why Mueller hasn't voted the >>>last two times. Schroeder probably didn't wake up in time or something. >>>Nick just quit, and everyone else is in Limbo. >> >>It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already >>over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a >>week to vote). > >Would it be better if it were more like 48 hours? > >>Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions >>for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do >>anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be >>counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and >>significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. > >Rule 113 (?) allows him to quit -- by my reading, it shouldn't be a >problem. What does everyone else think? > >>Tom Mueller >>mueller4@sonic.net > > >J. Uckelman >uckelman@iastate.edu > Maybe he should be credited with a loss, or a negative win, or something like that. Ed ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:43:21 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: voting results Joel D Uckelman writes: >Here's the voting results: > >P383 passed (3-1-0-2). >P384 passed (4-0-0-2). >P385 passed (3-1-0-2). >P386 passed (3-1-0-2). >P387 passed (3-0-1-2). >P389 passed (2-1-1-2). >P390 passed (2-1-1-2). >P393 passed (4-0-0-2). >P394 passed (2-1-1-2). >P395 passed (3-1-0-2). >P396 passed (2-1-1-2). I think we should call this the Era of Good Feelings. Josh -- Now I will have less distraction. - Leonhard Euler, upon losing the use of his right eye ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:42:35 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie Mueller writes: >It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already >over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a >week to vote). > >Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions >for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do >anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be >counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and >significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. As in, for example, divvying up his Subers? Once our economy gets going it would be a shame to destroy them, since we will presumably have a system for creating them that's non-inflationary. We should at least give them back to me or the government or something. I'm not sure what else to do with exiting players. There's not much else we can do except not allow them back within X time units. Josh -- How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought independent of experience, is so admirably adapted to the objects of reality? - Albert Einstein ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:44:44 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie At 05:42 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >Mueller writes: >>It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already >>over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a >>week to vote). >> >>Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions >>for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do >>anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be >>counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and >>significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. > >As in, for example, divvying up his Subers? Once our economy gets going >it would be a shame to destroy them, since we will presumably have >a system for creating them that's non-inflationary. We should at >least give them back to me or the government or something. There are no provisions in the rules for what happens to the Subers. In abscence of any directives and in light of what we intend to use them for, I don't think they should be destroyed. But who owns them, then? Any solution is going to be somewhat arbitrary. My suggestion is that 500 of them be given to Tom Knight so he can start with 1000 like everyone else, but then I don't know what to do with the other 500. Of course, someone could just claim them as salvage (or something similar) and take them. I see litigation on the horizion... J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:54:15 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie Joel D Uckelman writes: >At 05:42 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >>Mueller writes: >>>It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already >>>over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a >>>week to vote). >>> >>>Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions >>>for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do >>>anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be >>>counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and >>>significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. >> >>As in, for example, divvying up his Subers? Once our economy gets going >>it would be a shame to destroy them, since we will presumably have >>a system for creating them that's non-inflationary. We should at >>least give them back to me or the government or something. > >There are no provisions in the rules for what happens to the Subers. In >abscence of any directives and in light of what we intend to use them for, >I don't think they should be destroyed. But who owns them, then? Any >solution is going to be somewhat arbitrary. My suggestion is that 500 of >them be given to Tom Knight so he can start with 1000 like everyone else, >but then I don't know what to do with the other 500. > >Of course, someone could just claim them as salvage (or something similar) >and take them. I see litigation on the horizion... You surely will because that sounds stinky. -- The more I see of men, the better I like my dog. - Blaise Pascal ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:05:24 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie At 07:54 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>At 05:42 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >>>Mueller writes: >>>>It just happens too fast. I sat down to vote and oops... it was already >>>>over. I guess I just have bad habits from other nomics (where you've got a >>>>week to vote). >>>> >>>>Meanwhile, in another part of the forest: Do we actaully have provisions >>>>for leaving Berserker? While its certain that Nick doesn't have to do >>>>anything ever again, will eventaully go into Limbo, and thereby not be >>>>counted for much of anything, I don't believe there is a more formal and >>>>significant system in place that would permit his actual removal. >>> >>>As in, for example, divvying up his Subers? Once our economy gets going >>>it would be a shame to destroy them, since we will presumably have >>>a system for creating them that's non-inflationary. We should at >>>least give them back to me or the government or something. >> >>There are no provisions in the rules for what happens to the Subers. In >>abscence of any directives and in light of what we intend to use them for, >>I don't think they should be destroyed. But who owns them, then? Any >>solution is going to be somewhat arbitrary. My suggestion is that 500 of >>them be given to Tom Knight so he can start with 1000 like everyone else, >>but then I don't know what to do with the other 500. >> >>Of course, someone could just claim them as salvage (or something similar) >>and take them. I see litigation on the horizion... > >You surely will because that sounds stinky. Now that I think about it, it is important what happened to the Subers, because I need to know how many Subers there are total to calculate scores. I assumed that they were destroyed when Nick quit, but by no means does it have to be that way. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:12:04 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie Joel D Uckelman writes: >Now that I think about it, it is important what happened to the Subers, >because I need to know how many Subers there are total to calculate scores. >I assumed that they were destroyed when Nick quit, but by no means does it >have to be that way. Do the rules make any provision for Subers existing outside of their ownership? Josh -- Mathematics is not a deductive science ­ that's a cliche. When you try to prove a theorem, you don't just list the hypotheses, and then start to reason. What you do is trial and error, experimentation, guesswork. - Paul Halmos ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:28:01 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Nomic: Idea: cycles This is an idea stolen from other net nomics. In these nomics, play proceeds much like ours in that wins don't end the game, just reset it a little bit, then keep moving on. The terminology used is: "game" - the entire string of wins and the play involved in reaching them. That is, what we've been playing one of since we first started. "cycle" - the interval of time between one win and another, which changes when someone wins. Anyone interested in changing the terminology in the rules some? Fun possibilities include naming these cycles. Josh -- Anyone who slaps a "this page is best viewed with Browser X" label on a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web, when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another computer, another word processor, or another network. [Tim Berners-Lee in Technology Review, July 1996] ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:47:21 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie At 08:12 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>Now that I think about it, it is important what happened to the Subers, >>because I need to know how many Subers there are total to calculate scores. >>I assumed that they were destroyed when Nick quit, but by no means does it >>have to be that way. > >Do the rules make any provision for Subers existing outside of their >ownership? > >Josh Sort of. Rule 346 states in part: "Only rules may create and destroy Subers." Now the question is whether or not things are destroyed if they are possessed by a forfeiting player. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:59:19 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: Proposal 397 Proposal 397 ----------- Strike paragraph 2 of Rule 305/1. ----------- This fixes the wierd abstention thing I mentioned before. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:01:58 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: withdrawing P388 At least two players (Damon and Mueller) feel strongly about retaining the right to vote to the list unhindered, so I am withdrawing Proposal 388. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:49:28 -0600 Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:59:35 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Can I make a proposal at any time, or do I have to wait for my turn? What's the latest proposal number, anyway? And why do you call it *berserker* nomic? No offence, but I fail to see what's so berserk about it :-). ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:52:46 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: New Guy >Can I make a proposal at any time, or do I have to wait for my turn? What's >the latest proposal number, anyway? And why do you call it *berserker* >nomic? No offence, but I fail to see what's so berserk about it :-). I don't know about the new guy. He asks a lot of questions. Already he's trying to reform the system. I say we take him out. :) Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:50:13 CST From: Nicholas C Osborn Subject: Nomic: My legacy I am pleased to see that even after my passing I have continued to fowl up the game in new and interesting ways. I believe that even Berserker Nomic would follow the last wishes of a departed game entitiy, so I submit the following: I grant 500 Subers to the new guy (And when I die, and when I'm gone, there'll be one child born, and this world will carry on.) and return the remaining Subers to Berserker. They are not destroyed; they exist and shall be accounted for. If you do not follow my last wishes, I shall be compelled to haunt berserker, as the game entity Osborn continues to reside in the Black Box, tormenting the quick game entities. Godspeed, n ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:52:13 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: nominations Nominations for Foreign Minister are open until 11:31 CST tomorrow. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:49:15 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: Political Go Did you ever propose Political Go as a GWIB? I thought you did, but I can't seem to find it in the message logs. Anyway, I'd like to play. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:06:24 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Proposals At 07:57 AM 1/6/99 , you wrote: >Can I make a proposal at any time, or do I have to wait for my turn? Turns are just an artifact left from earlier in the game -- their only purpose now is to determine who wins if the game is unable to continue. Proposals can be made at any time, with two exceptions: 1) no proposals may be made during voting, and 2) new players may not make proposals until they've been players for one full turn, i.e. you won't be able to propose until this turn is over (~ 10 days), but you can do almost everything else. >What's the latest proposal number, anyway? 397. The next proposal will be 398. The only significance the numbers currently have is for recordkeeping purposes -- they used to be involved in scoring as well. You can find all live proposals under "Live Proposals" on the page. Active proposals will be voted upon at the end of the 8.5 day debate period, while inactive proposals will not. Players may change the activity state of their proposals at any time during the debate period. Players may also withdraw proposals entirely. And why do you call it *berserker* >nomic? No offence, but I fail to see what's so berserk about it :-). We had a contest to name the game. BN was the name that won. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:17:21 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Idea: cycles At 09:28 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: > >This is an idea stolen from other net nomics. > >In these nomics, play proceeds much like ours in that wins don't >end the game, just reset it a little bit, then keep moving on. >The terminology used is: > >"game" - the entire string of wins and the play involved in reaching >them. That is, what we've been playing one of since we first started. > >"cycle" - the interval of time between one win and another, which >changes when someone wins. > >Anyone interested in changing the terminology in the rules some? >Fun possibilities include naming these cycles. > > >Josh Are you thinking about seeking corporate sponsorship for the cycles? Like Cycle of the Depend Adult Undergarment? (a joke that only those who have read _Infinite Jest_ and maybe Damon because we've told him about it, would understand). J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:14:09 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: My legacy At 10:50 AM 1/6/99 , you wrote: >I am pleased to see that even after my passing I have continued to fowl >up the game in new and interesting ways. I believe that even Berserker >Nomic would follow the last wishes of a departed game entitiy, so I >submit the following: I grant 500 Subers to the new guy (And when I die, >and when I'm gone, there'll be one child born, and this world will carry >on.) and return the remaining Subers to Berserker. They are not >destroyed; they exist and shall be accounted for. > >If you do not follow my last wishes, I shall be compelled to haunt >berserker, as the game entity Osborn continues to reside in the Black Box, >tormenting the quick game entities. > >Godspeed, >n Is this legal? I suppose I won't complain about it, but it seems wierd for someone who's no longer with us to be able to affect the game. Is anyone going to protest this? J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:23:40 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: Protest? >Is this legal? I suppose I won't complain about it, but it seems wierd for >someone who's no longer with us to be able to affect the game. Is anyone >going to protest this? Of course it's not legal. I recall nothing in the rules that allows for such actions. Even if Nick was in the game he could do all that stuff. We should disregard anything he says from this point on, except for its comedic value. Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:46:17 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Protest? At 12:23 PM 1/6/99 , you wrote: > >>Is this legal? I suppose I won't complain about it, but it seems wierd for >>someone who's no longer with us to be able to affect the game. Is anyone >>going to protest this? > >Of course it's not legal. I recall nothing in the rules that allows for >such actions. Even if Nick was in the game he could do all that stuff. We >should disregard anything he says from this point on, except for its >comedic value. > >Damon Yes, but there's nothing in the rules that DISALLOWS Nick from determining the disposition of his wealth. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:55:06 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: Implicit >Yes, but there's nothing in the rules that DISALLOWS Nick from determining >the disposition of his wealth. There's nothing in the rules that disallows anyone who's not a player in the game to do anything, but I think we have been acting on the assumption that if you aren't a player in the game then you have no power over it. Otherwise I could quit and say that the new guy should get all of the subers form everyone. There's nothing that disallows it directly, I think. Isn't it implicit that if you aren't part of the game that you can't effect the game by way of commandment? Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 13:09:33 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Implicit At 12:55 PM 1/6/99 , you wrote: >>Yes, but there's nothing in the rules that DISALLOWS Nick from determining >>the disposition of his wealth. > >There's nothing in the rules that disallows anyone who's not a player in >the game to do anything, but I think we have been acting on the >assumption that if you aren't a player in the game then you have no power >over it. Otherwise I could quit and say that the new guy should get all >of the subers form everyone. There's nothing that disallows it directly, I >think. > >Isn't it implicit that if you aren't part of the game that you can't >effect the game by way of commandment? > > >Damon What, then, happens to Nick's Subers? J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:29:25 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: My legacy Nope. :) ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:28:26 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Implicit Joel D Uckelman writes: >What, then, happens to Nick's Subers? The way you ask this seems to imply that you think Nick's answer is as good as any, despite the fact that it is fundamentally hosed. You would be wrong, there. Very wrong. Josh -- If it sounds GOOD to YOU, it's bitchen; and if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty. - Zappa ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:33:23 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Political Go Joel D Uckelman writes: >Did you ever propose Political Go as a GWIB? I thought you did, but I can't >seem to find it in the message logs. Anyway, I'd like to play. "You?" It's Tom M.'s GWIB. He's even got a web page for it. Josh -- Wir mussen wissen. Wir werden wissen. - David Hilbert ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:32:58 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Idea: cycles Joel D Uckelman writes: >Are you thinking about seeking corporate sponsorship for the cycles? Like >Cycle of the Depend Adult Undergarment? (a joke that only those who have >read _Infinite Jest_ and maybe Damon because we've told him about it, would >understand). I have wide-ranging plans for these things you humans call "cycles." -- Absence of proof is not proof of absence. ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:35:01 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Nomic: A Clever Plan: Okay, I'll give 250 of my lovely shiney Subers to the first person to propose a repeal of the law that states that newbies have to wait a whole turn before proposing. Also, I'll give 50 to anyone who votes for it. I give the administrator the right to enforce my promises. This is legal, right? :) P.S., I wish to abstain from the voting on the postion of the forigen minister. ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:34:06 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Proposals RJ KNIGHT writes: >Can I make a proposal at any time, or do I have to wait for my turn? What's >the latest proposal number, anyway? And why do you call it *berserker* >nomic? No offence, but I fail to see what's so berserk about it :-). You're not the only one that thinks it's a stupid name. Josh -- Mr. Sparkle: Get out of my way, all of you. This is no place for loafers. Join me or die. Can you do any less? Japanese women: What a brave corporate logo! I accept the challenge of "Mr. Sparkle." ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:32:20 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Protest? Joel D Uckelman writes: >Yes, but there's nothing in the rules that DISALLOWS Nick from determining >the disposition of his wealth. There are a few things, actually: 1) Nick is not a player. As such, by game custom, he may take no game actions. 2) Subers are owned by players. As there is no player named Nick Osborn, it does not make sense to talk about Nick Osborn owning Subers. 3) Because Nick is not a player and it does not make sense to talk about Nick Osborn owning Subers, it does not make sense for Nick Osborn to trade (and this should be construed as a trade) Subers to another player. I present a statement for judgment: When the rules are silent, the only right and proper thing to do with a departed player's Subers is to destroy them. Josh -- "Fuck you," whispers Slothrop. It's the only spell he knows, and a pretty good all-purpose one at that. ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:46:18 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: Not much good >Okay, I'll give 250 of my lovely shiney Subers to the first person to >propose a repeal of the law that states that newbies have to wait a whole >turn before proposing. Also, I'll give 50 to anyone who votes for it. I >give the administrator the right to enforce my promises. This is legal, >right? :) I think it's legal, but it won't do you much good since by the time the proposl would pass you would be able to propose anyway. However I think it would make sense to repeal it anyway. But you probably won't have to offer any Subers for it. They don't really do much in the game right now anyway. Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:42:45 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: A Clever Plan: RJ KNIGHT writes: >Okay, I'll give 250 of my lovely shiney Subers to the first person to >propose a repeal of the law that states that newbies have to wait a whole >turn before proposing. Also, I'll give 50 to anyone who votes for it. I >give the administrator the right to enforce my promises. This is legal, >right? :) > >P.S., I wish to abstain from the voting on the postion of the forigen >minister. I propose: Strike the following sentence from rule 309. 2. New Players may not propose or serve as Judges until they have been players for the entirety of one turn. Also, I accept Mr. Knight's 250 subers. Too bad this rule won't pass until the turn's over. Josh -- I am interested in mathematics only as a creative art. - G.H. Hardy ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:59:18 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: Political Go Josh wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>Did you ever propose Political Go as a GWIB? I thought you did, but I can't >>seem to find it in the message logs. Anyway, I'd like to play. > >"You?" It's Tom M.'s GWIB. > >He's even got a web page for it. > I never actually did propose it as a GWIB. If there's interest in it I can do some rewrites (there were typos back then) and turn it into a GWIB... Anyone other than Joel interested in playing? Tom Mueller mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:19:12 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: A Clever Plan: At 02:35 PM 1/6/99 , you wrote: >Okay, I'll give 250 of my lovely shiney Subers to the first person to >propose a repeal of the law that states that newbies have to wait a whole >turn before proposing. Also, I'll give 50 to anyone who votes for it. I >give the administrator the right to enforce my promises. This is legal, >right? :) > >P.S., I wish to abstain from the voting on the postion of the forigen >minister. This may do you less good than you think. By the time the rule could be repealed, you'd already be able to propose anyway. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:25:18 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: judge assignment Ed Proescholdt has been assigned (randomly, in case TK was wondering) to judge CFJ 53: When the rules are silent, the only right and proper thing to do with a departed player's Subers is to destroy them. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:42:02 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: proposal Here are the batch of proposals to establish an economic system. Suggestions are very welcome. I can already hear some one saying "But I don't like spam!" My reply, of course, is to tell that person to try the "spam, spam, spam, baked beans, and spam," because it hasn't got much spam in it, as the Vikings begin chanting "spam, spam, spam, spam" in the background. You'll see why this is relevant when you get to Prop. 403. --------------------------------------- Proposal 399 {{Add property as a Player attribute.}} Property is any game-defined object that is both ownable and tradable. All game entities, including the game itself, may possess property. Public property consists of property owned by Berserker Nomic rather than any individual Player. Auctions may be held to sell property. Players wishing to bid on auctioned property must submit bids within 48 hours of the start of the auction. Possession of auctioned property is transferred to the highest bidder upon receipt of payment. Any game entity may auction any or all of its property at any time, and may set the starting price. If a starting price is not specified, the starting price will be 0.01 Subers. ------------------------------- Proposal 400 The Treasury holds all public property and funds, including, but not limited to, the proceeds collected from fines, taxes, tariffs, the sale of land, and the creation of new Subers. The Treasury may not go into debt, but will instead issue more Subers to cover the game's expenses. ------------------------------ Proposal 401 Berserker Nomic takes place on a 50 by 50 hexagonal grid with the grain running north-south and the first column superior. Hexes are numbered xxyy where xx is the column number and yy is the row number, running from 00 in the west and south to 49 in the north and east. [[Thus, 2314 would be hex 14 in column 23.]] Each hex represents 1 unit of land. A hex may be owned by only one entity at a time. All land is initially public property. At least 50 hexes must remain public property at all times. ------------------------------ Proposal 402 The Treasury Minister is an elected Official whose duties consist of: 1. Paying Official's salaries from the Treasury. 2. Purchasing sufficient spam to support non-player game entities. 3. Purchasing sufficient muskets so as to replenish those expended for defense. 4. Preventing the Treasury from going into debt. 5. Submitting a turnly report on relevant matters to the mailing list. The Treasury Minister, at his/her discretion, but no more than once per turn, may: 1. Auction public lands. 2. Authorize the minting of Subers, to be placed in the Treasury. 3. Authorize the destruction of Subers, to be removed from the Treasury. The Treasury Minister, at his/her discretion, may: 1. Purchase lands from other game entities with funds from the Treasury. 2. Purchase commodities with funds from the Treasury. 3. Sell commodities held by the Treasury. The Treasury Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn he/she holds Office. ---------------------------- Proposal 403 Enterprises are non-moveable property, that given certain inputs will produce certain outputs, as defined below. Commodities are moveable property and are inputs and outputs for enterprises. The the set of enterprises is {forest, farm, mine, lumber mill, slaughterhouse, steel mill, power plant, supermarket, arsenal, construction yard} , and the set of commodities is {wood, livestock, ore, coal, lumber, meat, steel, energy, spam, muskets}. Enterprises and commodities may only exist in integer quantities. Per turn, each enterprise may operate as follows, using resources in possession of the enterprise's owner: Forests convert 5 energy into 10 wood. Farms convert 5 energy into 10 livestock. Mines convert 10 energy into coal and ore, such that no more than 10 total units are produced. Lumber mills convert 40 wood and 15 energy into 10 lumber. Slaughterhouses convert 20 livestock and 15 energy into 10 meat. Steel mills convert 40 ore and 30 energy into 10 steel. Power plants convert 40 coal into 200 energy. Supermarkets convert 5 meat and 20 energy into 4 spam. Arsenals convert 15 steel and 15 energy into 10 muskets. Construction yards convert one of the following : 100 Subers, 5 lumber, and 5 energy into 1 forest. 25 Subers, 50 lumber, 5 steel, and 25 energy into 1 farm. 50 Subers, 50 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 mine. 100 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 lumber mill. 100 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 slaughterhouse. 100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 steel mill. 100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 power plant. 25 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 25 energy into 1 supermarket. 50 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 arsenal. 200 Subers, 50 lumber, 50 steel, and 50 energy into 1 construction yard. Upkeep for each enterprise costs 5 Subers per turn. An enterprise for which its owner does not pay upkeep is destroyed. If insufficient commodities are available to operate an enterprise or the owner chooses not to do so, it produces no output and consumes no commodities. Each game entity consumes 1 spam per turn or, if a Player, suffers a 10 point penalty; other game entities may not act during any turn in which they do not consume spam. The game expends 3 muskets per player per turn for game defense. If the Treasury possesses insufficient muskets to meet these demands, an automatic Confidence Vote is taken on the Treasury Minister. Payment of upkeep, consumption of spam, and expenditure of muskets occur at the beginning of each turn. Production of commodities and construction occur during dead time. At the beginning of each game, Players begin with the enterprise of their choice and one randomly selected hex of public land. {{Upon passage, all players receive the enterprise of their choice and one randomly selected hex of land.}} New Players receive the same, unless there is no public land. ----------------------------------- Proposal 404 The Market buys and sells commodities. The Market buys commodities 15% below the average per unit price established for each commodity during the previous two full turns by inter-Player transactions, and sells commodities 15% above that average price, rounded to the nearest hundredth. If a commodity was not sold during the previous turn, the last calculated average is retained. {{Initial prices use the following averages: wood - 2 livestock - 3 ore - 3 coal - 3 energy - 0.5 lumber - 13 meat - 6 steel - 14 spam - 10 muskets - 22 }} ------------------------------ J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:12:54 -0600 From: Andrew Proescholdt Subject: Nomic: Judgement When the rules are silent, the only right and proper thing to do with a departed player's Subers is to destroy them. Ruling: False Commentary: Rule 346 states "Only rules may create and destroy Subers." I haven't seen a rule that authorizes the destruction of Subers when I player leaves the game, so it is against the rules for them to be destroyed. ________________________________________ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:23:29 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Judgement Andrew Proescholdt writes: >When the rules are silent, the only right and proper thing to do with a >departed player's Subers is to destroy them. > >Ruling: False > >Commentary: > >Rule 346 states "Only rules may create and destroy Subers." I haven't seen >a rule that authorizes the destruction of Subers when I player leaves the >game, so it is against the rules for them to be destroyed. OK, new statement for judgment: It is not legal to reapportion or redistribute, in any way, a departed player's Subers unless the rules say so. Josh -- "All synthesizers are programmed white." - Miles Davis ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 02:49:41 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Nomic: 398 I withdraw prop 398. Thanks for doing business with me, Tom. Josh -- "Since using my Fernandes Sustainer, I have become the life and soul of any and every party. Guys look at me anxiously from corners of the room, while fawning bimbettes seek my opinions on the fetishings of music's inherent and delineated meanings." - Robert Fripp ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 02:40:27 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal Joel D Uckelman writes: >Here are the batch of proposals to establish an economic system. >Suggestions are very welcome. > >I can already hear some one saying "But I don't like spam!" My reply, of >course, is to tell that person to try the "spam, spam, spam, baked beans, >and spam," because it hasn't got much spam in it, as the Vikings begin >chanting "spam, spam, spam, spam" in the background. You'll see why this is >relevant when you get to Prop. 403. > >--------------------------------------- >Proposal 399 > >{{Add property as a Player attribute.}} > >Property is any game-defined object that is both ownable and tradable. All >game entities, including the game itself, may possess property. Public Since you were a little nit picky on "hearing" I'm afraid I must voice my irritation at this use of the word "property." While it's not too much of a stretch to say that the game (since it's sort of like a nation or some such) can posess property, ANY game entity posessing property sounds a little fishy. It's contrary to my anthropomorphic and/or organizationomorphic tendencies. >property consists of property owned by Berserker Nomic rather than any >individual Player. > >Auctions may be held to sell property. Players wishing to bid on auctioned >property must submit bids within 48 hours of the start of the auction. >Possession of auctioned property is transferred to the highest bidder upon >receipt of payment. Any game entity may auction any or all of its property >at any time, and may set the starting price. If a starting price is not >specified, the starting price will be 0.01 Subers. > >------------------------------- >Proposal 400 > >The Treasury holds all public property and funds, including, but not >limited to, the proceeds collected from fines, taxes, tariffs, the sale of >land, and the creation of new Subers. > >The Treasury may not go into debt, but will instead issue more Subers to >cover the game's expenses. > >------------------------------ >Proposal 401 > >Berserker Nomic takes place on a 50 by 50 hexagonal grid with the grain >running north-south and the first column superior. Hexes are numbered xxyy >where xx is the column number and yy is the row number, running from 00 in >the west and south to 49 in the north and east. [[Thus, 2314 would be hex >14 in column 23.]] Each hex represents 1 unit of land. > >A hex may be owned by only one entity at a time. > >All land is initially public property. At least 50 hexes must remain public >property at all times. The stuff about moveability and such below should go up here somewhere, I think. >------------------------------ >Proposal 402 > >The Treasury Minister is an elected Official whose duties consist of: > >1. Paying Official's salaries from the Treasury. >2. Purchasing sufficient spam to support non-player game entities. >3. Purchasing sufficient muskets so as to replenish those expended for defense >. >4. Preventing the Treasury from going into debt. >5. Submitting a turnly report on relevant matters to the mailing list. > >The Treasury Minister, at his/her discretion, but no more than once per >turn, may: > >1. Auction public lands. >2. Authorize the minting of Subers, to be placed in the Treasury. >3. Authorize the destruction of Subers, to be removed from the Treasury. > >The Treasury Minister, at his/her discretion, may: > >1. Purchase lands from other game entities with funds from the Treasury. >2. Purchase commodities with funds from the Treasury. >3. Sell commodities held by the Treasury. > >The Treasury Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn >he/she holds Office. I think that some notion of the rate at which subers may be minted, etc., is in order. Also, this office really should be called Greenspan. > >---------------------------- >Proposal 403 > >Enterprises are non-moveable property, that given certain inputs will >produce certain outputs, as defined below. Commodities are moveable >property and are inputs and outputs for enterprises. The the set of >enterprises is {forest, farm, mine, lumber mill, slaughterhouse, steel >mill, power plant, supermarket, arsenal, construction yard} , and the set >of commodities is {wood, livestock, ore, coal, lumber, meat, steel, energy, >spam, muskets}. Enterprises and commodities may only exist in integer >quantities. Nonnegative? Or is it even necessary? > >Per turn, each enterprise may operate as follows, using resources in >possession of the enterprise's owner: > >Forests convert 5 energy into 10 wood. >Farms convert 5 energy into 10 livestock. >Mines convert 10 energy into coal and ore, such that no more than 10 total >units are produced. >Lumber mills convert 40 wood and 15 energy into 10 lumber. >Slaughterhouses convert 20 livestock and 15 energy into 10 meat. >Steel mills convert 40 ore and 30 energy into 10 steel. >Power plants convert 40 coal into 200 energy. >Supermarkets convert 5 meat and 20 energy into 4 spam. >Arsenals convert 15 steel and 15 energy into 10 muskets. >Construction yards convert one of the following : > >100 Subers, 5 lumber, and 5 energy into 1 forest. >25 Subers, 50 lumber, 5 steel, and 25 energy into 1 farm. >50 Subers, 50 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 mine. >100 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 lumber mill. >100 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 slaughterhouse. >100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 steel mill. >100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 power plant. >25 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 25 energy into 1 supermarket. >50 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 arsenal. >200 Subers, 50 lumber, 50 steel, and 50 energy into 1 construction yard. > >Upkeep for each enterprise costs 5 Subers per turn. An enterprise for which >its owner does not pay upkeep is destroyed. If insufficient commodities are >available to operate an enterprise or the owner chooses not to do so, it >produces no output and consumes no commodities. > >Each game entity consumes 1 spam per turn or, if a Player, suffers a 10 >point penalty; other game entities may not act during any turn in which >they do not consume spam. > >The game expends 3 muskets per player per turn for game defense. If the >Treasury possesses insufficient muskets to meet these demands, an automatic >Confidence Vote is taken on the Treasury Minister. Hmmm? Why do we need defense expenditures, until we have something against which to defend? > >Payment of upkeep, consumption of spam, and expenditure of muskets occur at >the beginning of each turn. Production of commodities and construction >occur during dead time. > >At the beginning of each game, Players begin with the enterprise of their >choice and one randomly selected hex of public land. {{Upon passage, all >players receive the enterprise of their choice and one randomly selected >hex of land.}} New Players receive the same, unless there is no public land. > >----------------------------------- >Proposal 404 > >The Market buys and sells commodities. The Market buys commodities 15% >below the average per unit price established for each commodity during the >previous two full turns by inter-Player transactions, and sells commodities >15% above that average price, rounded to the nearest hundredth. If a >commodity was not sold during the previous turn, the last calculated >average is retained. > >{{Initial prices use the following averages: > >wood - 2 >livestock - 3 >ore - 3 >coal - 3 >energy - 0.5 >lumber - 13 >meat - 6 >steel - 14 >spam - 10 >muskets - 22 }} > >------------------------------ > > >J. Uckelman >uckelman@iastate.edu -- I knew I'd hate COBOL the moment I saw they'd used "perform" instead of "do". - Larry Wall on a not-so-popular programming language ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:35:15 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: Political Go I'd be interested. Where are the rules posted? ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:33:15 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: A Clever Plan: Bugger. Looks like Josh's outsmarted me. Oh well, the rest of the offer still stands. Is the first time that blatant bribery has been tried? ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:03:10 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Nomic: proposal Sounds good, but I feel you're trying to do too much at once. ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:09:55 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Nomic: 398 Bugger, bugger bugger bugger. I guess that'll teach me to try and be clever. ________________________________________ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:11:40 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: A Clever Plan: RJ KNIGHT writes: >Bugger. Looks like Josh's outsmarted me. Oh well, the rest of the offer >still stands. Is the first time that blatant bribery has been tried? Rest of the offer? Which part? No one can vote for my proposal because it's not one any more. If anyone else makes the same proposal, it still won't pass until the turn is over and you won't need it anyway. Save your Subers. Josh -- Any false value is gonna be fairly boring in Perl, mathematicians notwithstanding. - Larry Wall ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:01:56 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: foreign minister Since Tom Mueller was the only nominee, he is now our Foreign Minister. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:03:14 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: updates I won't be able to update the page until Saturday night since I'm leaving shortly. Sorry about that. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:01:05 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: judge assignment Damon Luloff has been selected to 1 Court for RFJ 54: It is not legal to reapportion or redistribute, in any way, a departed player's Subers unless the rules say so. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:11:22 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: A Clever Plan: At 12:33 PM 1/7/99 , TK wrote: >Bugger. Looks like Josh's outsmarted me. Oh well, the rest of the offer >still stands. Is the first time that blatant bribery has been tried? Yep. This is actually the first _transaction_ of any kind. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:23:43 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Political Go At 12:35 PM 1/7/99 , you wrote: >I'd be interested. Where are the rules posted? The rules are at Tom Mueller's web page: http://www.sonic.net/~mueller4/tom/nomic/berserker/ J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:59:17 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: No Problem >It is not legal to reapportion or redistribute, in any way, a departed >player's Subers unless the rules say so. True Seeing as how it's not legal to do anything with Subers unless the rules say so, deduction tells me that it is not legal to reapportion or redistribute a departed player's Subers. Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:30:10 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: foreign minister At 12:01 PM 1/8/99 -0600, you wrote: >Since Tom Mueller was the only nominee, he is now our Foreign Minister. > Hmmmmm.... being the Foreign Minister and all, I decided to actually look up that particular rule... Do you realize the implictions of this rule! Berserker has opened itself up to infection by other nomics (through me) and has placed no restrictions on my actions! I could sell you all into slavery! Legally! Now, that sort of thing is currently not in my plans but consider how much thought and debate went into my election . Did _anyone_ ask what my policy on nomic slavery was? Did anyone ask what ANY of my policies are?!? That said, what sort of goals should I track? Are we isolationists (not likely considering that we bothered to have a Foreign Minster), do we plan on invading other nomics, are we merchant princes with a collective eye on the bounty of other nomics, do we just want to see if we can become entangled in treaties which cause pleasantly interesting logic loops and tangled hierarchies? I am starting two unofficial traditions (which I will eventaully attempt to get justified by rules of some sort) as follows: 1. I will be publishing my weekly reports as a sort of Internomic Relations Journal with each volume being another election cycle and each issue being a weekly address. 2. I will be giving players medals and/or awards for bravery in the greater nomic world. The first of these is the Heroic Ear award which will be given to any player who is subscribed to the INTO (Inter Nomic Treaty Organization) mailing list. Do this by sending mail to Majordomo@muppetlabs.com with a body text of "subscribe internomic" (minus the quotes). I will be reflecting and archiving this sort of information on my berserker web page at http://www.sonic.net/~mueller4/tom/nomic/berserker/ but don't look too quickly because I still have to make the pages. Glory To Berserker! Tom Mueller, Foreign Minister mueller4@sonic.net PS The entire text of this email is my first turnly report. ________________________________________ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:53:35 CST From: My Own Love Slave Subject: Nomic: Me I am in limbo. Talk to y'all in a couple weeks. Damon __________ "Who am I?" he repeated; "I am five years." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:08:45 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Nomic: Proposals How long is it before I can make proposals again? ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:02:58 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: foreign minister I think that we should hold a weekly vote on matters of forigen policy. Other proposals will obvioulsy affect ti at other times, but IMHO having a specific point set aside to deal with it will be a good idea. My personal view is that we should be the last nomic standing, dammit! Let's live up to our name and give all those other nomics a kicking. Do unto others before they do unto you! ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:04 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: foreign minister Mueller writes: >At 12:01 PM 1/8/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Since Tom Mueller was the only nominee, he is now our Foreign Minister. >> > >Hmmmmm.... being the Foreign Minister and all, I decided to actually look >up that particular rule... > > >Do you realize the implictions of this rule! Berserker has opened itself >up to infection by other nomics (through me) and has placed no restrictions >on my actions! I could sell you all into slavery! Legally! > >Now, that sort of thing is currently not in my plans but consider how much >thought and debate went into my election . > >Did _anyone_ ask what my policy on nomic slavery was? Did anyone ask what >ANY of my policies are?!? > > > >That said, what sort of goals should I track? Are we isolationists (not >likely considering that we bothered to have a Foreign Minster), do we plan >on invading other nomics, are we merchant princes with a collective eye on >the bounty of other nomics, do we just want to see if we can become >entangled in treaties which cause pleasantly interesting logic loops and >tangled hierarchies? > This is an interesting problem. I hadn't thought of this. Aside from treaties we sign, which mean nothing as they're not rules, how are we constrained to actually play fair in the extra-nomic world? In this sense, Tom has no power at all, if he chooses to work against us. Suddenly, we're also admitting the existance of all sorts of external things, without them being defined in the rules... Josh -- Sir, I have found you an argument. I am not obliged to find you an understanding. - Samuel Johnson ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:53:33 -0600 From: "Yuli M. Vorontsov, Ambassador" Subject: Nomic: Out of limbo now I'm out of limbo. I don't know what's going on, though. ________________________________________ Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:01:16 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Out of limbo now "Yuli M. Vorontsov, Ambassador" writes: >I'm out of limbo. I don't know what's going on, though. Well then you're just fucked, aren't you? Josh -- In my experience most mathematicians are intellectually lazy and especially dislike reading experimental papers. - Francis Harry Compton Crick ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:19:26 -0600 From: Jeff Schroeder Subject: Re: Nomic: Wowie I am now trying to figure out what's going on because I was gone during the skiing celebration! as well. I don't know if i am in limbo or not, but if i am i'm now out... jeff At 02:29 PM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 01:35 PM 1/5/99 , you wrote: >> >>Four people voting. Would that be >> >>Josh >>Joel >>Me >>[Ed] >> >>by chance? >> >>Damon > >Yep. Tom Plagge is away skiing. I'm not sure why Mueller hasn't voted the >last two times. Schroeder probably didn't wake up in time or something. >Nick just quit, and everyone else is in Limbo. > >The voting breakdown is now on the page under "Voting". > > >J. Uckelman >uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:47:11 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Proposals At 08:08 AM 1/9/99 , you wrote: >How long is it before I can make proposals again? It will be January 15. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:51:09 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: foreign minister At 02:30 PM 1/8/99 , you wrote: >At 12:01 PM 1/8/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Since Tom Mueller was the only nominee, he is now our Foreign Minister. >> > >Hmmmmm.... being the Foreign Minister and all, I decided to actually look >up that particular rule... > > >Do you realize the implictions of this rule! Berserker has opened itself >up to infection by other nomics (through me) and has placed no restrictions >on my actions! I could sell you all into slavery! Legally! How? We could just ignore it if you did, since agreements you make don't have the force of rule. >Now, that sort of thing is currently not in my plans but consider how much >thought and debate went into my election . > >Did _anyone_ ask what my policy on nomic slavery was? Did anyone ask what >ANY of my policies are?!? > > > >That said, what sort of goals should I track? Are we isolationists (not >likely considering that we bothered to have a Foreign Minster), do we plan >on invading other nomics, are we merchant princes with a collective eye on >the bounty of other nomics, do we just want to see if we can become >entangled in treaties which cause pleasantly interesting logic loops and >tangled hierarchies? > It think we should join INTO. I'm not in favor of invading anything at present. >I am starting two unofficial traditions (which I will eventaully attempt to >get justified by rules of some sort) as follows: >1. I will be publishing my weekly reports as a sort of Internomic Relations >Journal with each volume being another election cycle and each issue being >a weekly address. Good. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:17:49 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: "gimme one of them Heroic Ear thingies" I just subscribed to the internomic list, so I want my Ear. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:39:11 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: "gimme one of them Heroic Ear thingies" Joel D Uckelman writes: >I just subscribed to the internomic list, so I want my Ear. You loser, I get my ear first. I've been on it for longer. -- I'm sure a mathematician would claim that 0 and 1 are both very interesting numbers. :-) - Larry Wall ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:35:16 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Nomic: Question Where's all the nudey pictures on this damn site? ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:38:42 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: "gimme one of them Heroic Ear thingies" At 09:39 PM 1/10/99 CST, you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>I just subscribed to the internomic list, so I want my Ear. > >You loser, I get my ear first. I've been on it for longer. > A parade marches through Berserker Nomic in a lazy surrealist fashion. Its motion is only apparent by intuition (parades are supposed to move so this one must be moving) as it has no referents to indicate motion by changes of distance between anything. Magic confetti is thrown from non-rule defined buildings. Curiously, both the buildings and confetti move along with the parade so that they don't provide the necessary referents... Whoever designed this place had an odd sense of humor. Oh, and at the front of the parade are BOTH Josh Kortbein and Joel D Uckelman prominently displaying their Heroic Ears. Small non rule defined children that also keep pace with the parade are oohing and aahing and wondering when they will be old enough to subscribe to the INTO mailing list. A band of shrubberies bring up the rear, with signs that variously demand their inclusion in the ruleset for "a more egalitarian shrub-world" and display nekkid pictures of an oddly gender-politics-sensitive nature. Tom Mueller, Foreign Minister mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:50:40 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Question At 10:35 PM 1/10/99 , you wrote: >Where's all the nudey pictures on this damn site? Yep, this is now definately the all-time FAQ. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:59:39 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments I'm making my way through the digests now, and I feel compelled to formalize the Infinite Jest reference made by Joel. Proposal: Each cycle shall be sponsored by a corporate entity. This sponsorship has no significance at all. The current cycle shall be designated "The Cycle of the Tasteful Shrubbery." [[The cycle name should be changed at the beginning of each cycle by proposals.]] ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:11:36 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Nomic: Ears I subscribed. I want my ear now. ________________________________________ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:32:21 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: Re: Returned mail: unknown mailer error 2 This was bounced for whatever reason: >From: Einsturzende Neubaten > > >The Bavarian Illuminati writes: >>I subscribed. I want my ear now. > >Better get 'em quick! They're going like candy corn! > >-- >Karma police arrest this man >He talks in maths, he buzzes like a fridge >He`s like a detuned radio J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:03:06 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal At 02:40 AM 1/7/99 , Josh wrote: >>--------------------------------------- >>Proposal 399 >> >>{{Add property as a Player attribute.}} >> >>Property is any game-defined object that is both ownable and tradable. All >>game entities, including the game itself, may possess property. Public > >Since you were a little nit picky on "hearing" I'm afraid I must voice >my irritation at this use of the word "property." While it's not too much >of a stretch to say that the game (since it's sort of like a nation or >some such) can posess property, ANY game entity posessing property >sounds a little fishy. It's contrary to my anthropomorphic and/or >organizationomorphic tendencies. > >>property consists of property owned by Berserker Nomic rather than any >>individual Player. >> revision: The second sentence of Prop. 399 should be: "Players and the game may possess property." Does this fix the problem? J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:15:51 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: "gimme one of them Heroic Ear thingies" At 10:38 PM 1/10/99 , you wrote: >At 09:39 PM 1/10/99 CST, you wrote: >> >>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>I just subscribed to the internomic list, so I want my Ear. >> >>You loser, I get my ear first. I've been on it for longer. >> > >A parade marches through Berserker Nomic in a lazy surrealist fashion. Its >motion is only apparent by intuition (parades are supposed to move so this >one must be moving) as it has no referents to indicate motion by changes of >distance between anything. > >Magic confetti is thrown from non-rule defined buildings. Curiously, both >the buildings and confetti move along with the parade so that they don't >provide the necessary referents... > >Whoever designed this place had an odd sense of humor. Oh, and at the >front of the parade are BOTH Josh Kortbein and Joel D Uckelman prominently >displaying their Heroic Ears. > >Small non rule defined children that also keep pace with the parade are >oohing and aahing and wondering when they will be old enough to subscribe >to the INTO mailing list. > >A band of shrubberies bring up the rear, with signs that variously demand >their inclusion in the ruleset for "a more egalitarian shrub-world" and >display nekkid pictures of an oddly gender-politics-sensitive nature. > >Tom Mueller, Foreign Minister >mueller4@sonic.net I like this. There may be a place for it on the Articles page, although it doesn't quite fit with the rest of the content. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:10:21 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal At 02:40 AM 1/7/99 , Josh wrote: >>------------------------------ >>Proposal 402 >> >>The Treasury Minister is an elected Official whose duties consist of: >> >>1. Paying Official's salaries from the Treasury. >>2. Purchasing sufficient spam to support non-player game entities. >>3. Purchasing sufficient muskets so as to replenish those expended for defense >>. >>4. Preventing the Treasury from going into debt. >>5. Submitting a turnly report on relevant matters to the mailing list. >> >>The Treasury Minister, at his/her discretion, but no more than once per >>turn, may: >> >>1. Auction public lands. >>2. Authorize the minting of Subers, to be placed in the Treasury. >>3. Authorize the destruction of Subers, to be removed from the Treasury. >> >>The Treasury Minister, at his/her discretion, may: >> >>1. Purchase lands from other game entities with funds from the Treasury. >>2. Purchase commodities with funds from the Treasury. >>3. Sell commodities held by the Treasury. >> >>The Treasury Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn >>he/she holds Office. > >I think that some notion of the rate at which subers may be minted, etc., >is in order. I thought about this, but I don't have any idea what rate would be appropriate or whether the need for new Subers would fluctuate widely over time. I'd hate to set a rate only to find that it is woefully inadequate. Maybe we could determine this by letting the economy run for a few turns. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:13:50 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal At 02:40 AM 1/7/99 , Josh wrote: >>---------------------------- >>Proposal 403 >> >>Enterprises are non-moveable property, that given certain inputs will >>produce certain outputs, as defined below. Commodities are moveable >>property and are inputs and outputs for enterprises. The the set of >>enterprises is {forest, farm, mine, lumber mill, slaughterhouse, steel >>mill, power plant, supermarket, arsenal, construction yard} , and the set >>of commodities is {wood, livestock, ore, coal, lumber, meat, steel, energy, >>spam, muskets}. Enterprises and commodities may only exist in integer >>quantities. > >Nonnegative? Or is it even necessary? > Yep. Change the last sentence above to: Enterprises and commodities may only exist in non-negative integer quantities. >>Per turn, each enterprise may operate as follows, using resources in >>possession of the enterprise's owner: >> >>Forests convert 5 energy into 10 wood. >>Farms convert 5 energy into 10 livestock. >>Mines convert 10 energy into coal and ore, such that no more than 10 total >>units are produced. >>Lumber mills convert 40 wood and 15 energy into 10 lumber. >>Slaughterhouses convert 20 livestock and 15 energy into 10 meat. >>Steel mills convert 40 ore and 30 energy into 10 steel. >>Power plants convert 40 coal into 200 energy. >>Supermarkets convert 5 meat and 20 energy into 4 spam. >>Arsenals convert 15 steel and 15 energy into 10 muskets. >>Construction yards convert one of the following : >> >>100 Subers, 5 lumber, and 5 energy into 1 forest. >>25 Subers, 50 lumber, 5 steel, and 25 energy into 1 farm. >>50 Subers, 50 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 mine. >>100 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 lumber mill. >>100 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 slaughterhouse. >>100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 steel mill. >>100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 power plant. >>25 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 25 energy into 1 supermarket. >>50 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 arsenal. >>200 Subers, 50 lumber, 50 steel, and 50 energy into 1 construction yard. >> >>Upkeep for each enterprise costs 5 Subers per turn. An enterprise for which >>its owner does not pay upkeep is destroyed. If insufficient commodities are >>available to operate an enterprise or the owner chooses not to do so, it >>produces no output and consumes no commodities. >> >>Each game entity consumes 1 spam per turn or, if a Player, suffers a 10 >>point penalty; other game entities may not act during any turn in which >>they do not consume spam. >> >>The game expends 3 muskets per player per turn for game defense. If the >>Treasury possesses insufficient muskets to meet these demands, an automatic >>Confidence Vote is taken on the Treasury Minister. > >Hmmm? Why do we need defense expenditures, until we have something >against which to defend? We have to use the output for something. I just wanted to get the military-industrial complex off to a good start. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:25:11 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO This is what I got when I contacted the INTO moderator (before we had a Foreign Minister): >Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:50:19 +0200 (EET) >From: Uri Bruck >To: Joel D Uckelman >Subject: Re: INTO > > >INTO has not started yet, so Berserker would be the first. >Just post a message to the internomic mailing list, and maybe other nomics >will follow suit. > >Uri > >On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Joel D Uckelman wrote: > >> Berserker Nomic may be interested in joining INTO. Has it started yet? >> >> J. Uckelman >> uckelman@iastate.edu >> J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:26:57 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments At 10:59 PM 1/10/99 , you wrote: >I'm making my way through the digests now, and I feel compelled to >formalize the Infinite Jest reference made by Joel. > >Proposal: > >Each cycle shall be sponsored by a corporate entity. This sponsorship has >no significance at all. The current cycle shall be designated "The Cycle >of the Tasteful Shrubbery." [[The cycle name should be changed at the >beginning of each cycle by proposals.]] Would it be better to just have a vote on names for the next cycle during the voting period of the last cycle, rather than have it done by proposal every time? J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:23:21 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal At 02:40 AM 1/7/99 , Josh wrote: >>------------------------------ >>Proposal 401 >> >>Berserker Nomic takes place on a 50 by 50 hexagonal grid with the grain >>running north-south and the first column superior. Hexes are numbered xxyy >>where xx is the column number and yy is the row number, running from 00 in >>the west and south to 49 in the north and east. [[Thus, 2314 would be hex >>14 in column 23.]] Each hex represents 1 unit of land. >> >>A hex may be owned by only one entity at a time. >> >>All land is initially public property. At least 50 hexes must remain public >>property at all times. > >The stuff about moveability and such below should go up here somewhere, >I think. Add a final paragraph to Prop. 401: Anything built within a hex may not be moved from that hex. Change the first sentence of Prop. 403 to: Enterprises are non-moveable property built within hexes, that given certain inputs will produce certain outputs, as defined below. I think this takes care of the movablility problem that you mentioned before. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:50:26 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: "gimme one of them Heroic Ear thingies" Joel D Uckelman writes: >I like this. There may be a place for it on the Articles page, although it >doesn't quite fit with the rest of the content. Fun, Joel, fun.... -- There is no hell. There is only France. - Zappa ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:52:23 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments Joel D Uckelman writes: >Would it be better to just have a vote on names for the next cycle during >the voting period of the last cycle, rather than have it done by proposal >every time? I think we should let winners pick cycle names. Josh -- This is a sacred duty. Please die trying. - R. ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:51:36 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal Joel D Uckelman writes: >We have to use the output for something. I just wanted to get the >military-industrial complex off to a good start. I don't see any reason to have a defense budget when we don't have anyone against whom to defend. Josh -- "When I have a little money I buy music; if any is left I buy food and clothing." - Erasmus, slightly paraphrased ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:54:14 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal Joel D Uckelman writes: >The second sentence of Prop. 399 should be: "Players and the game may >possess property." > >Does this fix the problem? Possession by other entities is not governed by a rule and hence some smartass (me) may choose to claim other entities possess things. -- ... it seems to me that teaching critical thinking via popular-art examples holds the potential for making people both capable of critical thought and inclined toward it, whereas teaching it through _The Scarlet Letter_ just makes people associate the process with unpleasantness. - Glenn McDonald ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:50:17 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments At 10:26 AM 1/11/99 , you wrote: >At 10:59 PM 1/10/99 , you wrote: >>I'm making my way through the digests now, and I feel compelled to >>formalize the Infinite Jest reference made by Joel. >> >>Proposal: >> >>Each cycle shall be sponsored by a corporate entity. This sponsorship has >>no significance at all. The current cycle shall be designated "The Cycle >>of the Tasteful Shrubbery." [[The cycle name should be changed at the >>beginning of each cycle by proposals.]] > >Would it be better to just have a vote on names for the next cycle during >the voting period of the last cycle, rather than have it done by proposal >every time? > >J. Uckelman >uckelman@iastate.edu Perhaps, but I hated to see such a blatantly silly proposal become too long and drawn-out. ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:53:26 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO Joel D Uckelman writes: >This is what I got when I contacted the INTO moderator (before we had a >Foreign Minister): > >>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:50:19 +0200 (EET) >>From: Uri Bruck >>To: Joel D Uckelman >>Subject: Re: INTO >> >> >>INTO has not started yet, so Berserker would be the first. >>Just post a message to the internomic mailing list, and maybe other nomics >>will follow suit. >> >>Uri >> >>On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Joel D Uckelman wrote: >> >>> Berserker Nomic may be interested in joining INTO. Has it started yet? >>> >>> J. Uckelman >>> uckelman@iastate.edu >>> > > >J. Uckelman >uckelman@iastate.edu So... we control INTO? Bitchen. -- ... it seems to me that teaching critical thinking via popular-art examples holds the potential for making people both capable of critical thought and inclined toward it, whereas teaching it through _The Scarlet Letter_ just makes people associate the process with unpleasantness. - Glenn McDonald ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:01:58 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments The Bavarian Illuminati writes: >Perhaps, but I hated to see such a blatantly silly proposal become too long >and drawn-out. Fun never really starts until the beauracracy kicks in. -- In my experience most mathematicians are intellectually lazy and especially dislike reading experimental papers. - Francis Harry Compton Crick ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:05:28 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal At 12:54 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>The second sentence of Prop. 399 should be: "Players and the game may >>possess property." >> >>Does this fix the problem? > >Possession by other entities is not governed by a rule and hence some >smartass (me) may choose to claim other entities possess things. The second sentence of Prop. 399 should be: "Only Players and the game may possess property." Better? J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:04:06 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments At 12:52 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>Would it be better to just have a vote on names for the next cycle during >>the voting period of the last cycle, rather than have it done by proposal >>every time? > >I think we should let winners pick cycle names. By cycle, do you mean a game or a turn? I though that cycles were to be a new name for turns, but if a game is meant, then disregard my suggestion. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:08:20 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Re: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO At 12:53 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>This is what I got when I contacted the INTO moderator (before we had a >>Foreign Minister): >> >>>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:50:19 +0200 (EET) >>>From: Uri Bruck >>>To: Joel D Uckelman >>>Subject: Re: INTO >>> >>> >>>INTO has not started yet, so Berserker would be the first. >>>Just post a message to the internomic mailing list, and maybe other nomics >>>will follow suit. >>> >>>Uri >>> >>>On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Joel D Uckelman wrote: >>> >>>> Berserker Nomic may be interested in joining INTO. Has it started yet? >>>> >>>> J. Uckelman >>>> uckelman@iastate.edu >>>> >> >> >>J. Uckelman >>uckelman@iastate.edu > >So... we control INTO? > > > >Bitchen. It's rules are more like international relations than the old Internomic rules were, so I don't know that anyone could be said to control it. I guess that we'd be the charter member, though. I suggest that TM declare us a member of INTO if he hasn't already. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:39:25 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO Quick, let's make ourselves Tyrants For Life before anyone else shows up! ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:40:37 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments Well, I like it, but the winner of the last cycle's vote should only be defeatable by a full majority, IMHO. ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:11:22 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments RJ KNIGHT writes: >Well, I like it, but the winner of the last cycle's vote should only be >defeatable by a full majority, IMHO. Why's that? Josh -- Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself. - Walt Whitman ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:10:15 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments Joel D Uckelman writes: >At 12:52 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: >> >>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>Would it be better to just have a vote on names for the next cycle during >>>the voting period of the last cycle, rather than have it done by proposal >>>every time? >> >>I think we should let winners pick cycle names. > >By cycle, do you mean a game or a turn? I though that cycles were to be a >new name for turns, but if a game is meant, then disregard my suggestion. I mean game. -- "Sleep... is a reward for some, a torture for others." - Lautreamont ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:22:33 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: "gimme one of them Heroic Ear thingies" I wrote: >At 09:39 PM 1/10/99 CST, you wrote: >> >>Joel D Uckelman writes: >>>I just subscribed to the internomic list, so I want my Ear. >> >>You loser, I get my ear first. I've been on it for longer. >> > >A parade marches through Berserker Nomic in a lazy surrealist fashion. Its >motion is only apparent by intuition (parades are supposed to move so this >one must be moving) as it has no referents to indicate motion by changes of >distance between anything. > >Magic confetti is thrown from non-rule defined buildings. Curiously, both >the buildings and confetti move along with the parade so that they don't >provide the necessary referents... > >Whoever designed this place had an odd sense of humor. Oh, and at the >front of the parade are BOTH Josh Kortbein and Joel D Uckelman prominently >displaying their Heroic Ears. > >Small non rule defined children that also keep pace with the parade are >oohing and aahing and wondering when they will be old enough to subscribe >to the INTO mailing list. > >A band of shrubberies bring up the rear, with signs that variously demand >their inclusion in the ruleset for "a more egalitarian shrub-world" and >display nekkid pictures of an oddly gender-politics-sensitive nature. And what's this! Behind the shrubberies on a sedan chair of the finest Shrubbery weavings carried by rules gnomes Tom Plagge functions as a Master of Ceremonies for this parade with his own Heroic Ear lashed to a staff wrapped in the purest shimmering samite. Tom Mueller, Foreign Minister mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:44:48 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: proposal Uckelman wrote: >At 02:40 AM 1/7/99 , Josh wrote: >>>---------------------------- >>>Proposal 403 ... >>>Per turn, each enterprise may operate as follows, using resources in >>>possession of the enterprise's owner: >>> >>>Forests convert 5 energy into 10 wood. >>>Farms convert 5 energy into 10 livestock. >>>Mines convert 10 energy into coal and ore, such that no more than 10 total >>>units are produced. >>>Lumber mills convert 40 wood and 15 energy into 10 lumber. >>>Slaughterhouses convert 20 livestock and 15 energy into 10 meat. >>>Steel mills convert 40 ore and 30 energy into 10 steel. >>>Power plants convert 40 coal into 200 energy. >>>Supermarkets convert 5 meat and 20 energy into 4 spam. >>>Arsenals convert 15 steel and 15 energy into 10 muskets. >>>Construction yards convert one of the following : Perhaps, using the same numbers as muskets we could say that: Ore -> Steel -> Widgets Then say that the "mysterious machinery of the nomic" requires repairs or something. Also allows widgets to be a unit of construction material for the creation of tricky items later. See reasoning below. >>> >>>100 Subers, 5 lumber, and 5 energy into 1 forest. >>>25 Subers, 50 lumber, 5 steel, and 25 energy into 1 farm. >>>50 Subers, 50 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 mine. >>>100 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 50 energy into 1 lumber mill. >>>100 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 slaughterhouse. >>>100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 steel mill. >>>100 Subers, 5 lumber, 30 steel, and 50 energy into 1 power plant. >>>25 Subers, 20 lumber, 10 steel, and 25 energy into 1 supermarket. >>>50 Subers, 15 lumber, 15 steel, and 50 energy into 1 arsenal. >>>200 Subers, 50 lumber, 50 steel, and 50 energy into 1 construction yard. >>> >>>Upkeep for each enterprise costs 5 Subers per turn. An enterprise for which >>>its owner does not pay upkeep is destroyed. If insufficient commodities are >>>available to operate an enterprise or the owner chooses not to do so, it >>>produces no output and consumes no commodities. >>> >>>Each game entity consumes 1 spam per turn or, if a Player, suffers a 10 >>>point penalty; other game entities may not act during any turn in which >>>they do not consume spam. >>> >>>The game expends 3 muskets per player per turn for game defense. If the >>>Treasury possesses insufficient muskets to meet these demands, an automatic >>>Confidence Vote is taken on the Treasury Minister. >> >>Hmmm? Why do we need defense expenditures, until we have something >>against which to defend? > >We have to use the output for something. I just wanted to get the >military-industrial complex off to a good start. Later Josh responded: >I don't see any reason to have a defense budget when we don't have >anyone against whom to defend. I agree with Josh that muskets don't make a whole lot of sense in this context, but Joel's right that we need something to burn the product on. Perhaps widgets would be a happy medium. Tom Mueller mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:24:25 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Nomic: damn. Joel also was correct. Replace every occurance of "cycle" in my proposal with "game." ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:22:52 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments At 12:52 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: > >Joel D Uckelman writes: >>Would it be better to just have a vote on names for the next cycle during >>the voting period of the last cycle, rather than have it done by proposal >>every time? > >I think we should let winners pick cycle names. Good idea. Proposal: Each cycle shall be sponsored by a corporate entity. This sponsorship has no significance at all. The current cycle shall be designated &The Cycle of the Iowa Beef Producers.& The winner of each cycle must name the next cycle by publicly decreeing the name that is to replace the ampersand-delimited text. ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:14:01 CST From: Einsturzende Neubaten Subject: Nomic: Re: INTO: Starting members Mueller writes in Internomic: >A second treaty (which may be more of a white elephant): I've noticed many >nomics try to develope some sort of economy and recall some attempts by >Internomic to permit entitiy trading. What if we generated treaty based >entities that worked approximately the same in each nomic. A transnomic >currency might facilitate this. > >Tom Mueller, Foreign Minister of Berserker > >AKA >Studge in Ackanomic >Gödel in Axiom I am strongly opposed to this until we have a stable economy of our own. Then I'll consider liking it. -- A true Zen saying, nothing is what I want. - Zappa ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:09:52 -0600 From: The Bavarian Illuminati Subject: Re: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO At 02:39 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: >Quick, let's make ourselves Tyrants For Life before anyone else shows up! Right, then! Cry "Havoc" and let slip the dogs of war! First Agora, and then the world... By the way, we need a new name. Berserker Nomic sucks, and has always sucked. How can we expect to rule the world with a name like this? ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:29:31 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: Re: INTO: Starting members At 12:14 AM 1/12/99 CST, you wrote: > >Mueller writes in Internomic: NOTE: White Elephant is a term an agora person used to describe "a nice structure, fun to make, but hardly ever used and not really necessary for any practical purpose" a while back on the INTO mailing list. >>A second treaty (which may be more of a white elephant): I've noticed many >>nomics try to develope some sort of economy and recall some attempts by >>Internomic to permit entitiy trading. What if we generated treaty based >>entities that worked approximately the same in each nomic. A transnomic >>currency might facilitate this. >> >>Tom Mueller, Foreign Minister of Berserker >> >>AKA >>Studge in Ackanomic >>Gödel in Axiom > >I am strongly opposed to this until we have a stable economy >of our own. Then I'll consider liking it. > The idea was that this would be a mostly separate economy. Like every voting player in every signatory gets five sheckels and there is a "treaty store" with something (no idea what just now) that is useful in all signatories for maybe 15 sheckels. Basically, instead of letting trade occur between nomics using their already existing economies (which we don't really have) we create a larger meta-economy which individual players might gain advantage in by cutting deals within their nomic (or outside it for an even better angle). Again, this is a very "proto" idea that might be fundamentally infeasible. Tom Mueller mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:48:20 -0600 From: Nicholas C Osborn Subject: Nomic: a modest proposal I am interested in the recent turn of events within Berserker. The thought of messing up nomics on a grand scale is absolutely delightful. However, this is currently the only part of Berserker Nomic I find of interest. I would not actually have to be a Player within Berserker. That's up to you folks. I could be a seperate nomic, a nomic within Berserker, or a special class of Player Entity within Berserker. I would like to offer my services to Berserker, for a modest compensation which can be discussed at a later date. I think this is probably something that Mueller should handle, but I don't know that the current rules allow him. Join me in a sinister chuckle, n Come to think of it, starting a Mononomic, where I am, by rule, the only Player, could have some delicious implications for a meta-nomic. ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:47:39 CST From: Josh Subject: Re: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO The Bavarian Illuminati writes: >At 02:39 PM 1/11/99 , you wrote: >>Quick, let's make ourselves Tyrants For Life before anyone else shows up! > >Right, then! Cry "Havoc" and let slip the dogs of war! First Agora, and >then the world... > >By the way, we need a new name. Berserker Nomic sucks, and has always >sucked. How can we expect to rule the world with a name like this? > I _told_ you it sucked. -- We are servants rather than masters in mathematics. - Charles Hermite ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:57:44 CST From: Josh Subject: Re: Nomic: a modest proposal Nicholas C Osborn writes: >I am interested in the recent turn of events within Berserker. The thought >of messing up nomics on a grand scale is absolutely delightful. However, >this is currently the only part of Berserker Nomic I find of interest. > >I would not actually have to be a Player within Berserker. That's up to you >folks. I could be a seperate nomic, a nomic within Berserker, or a special >class of Player Entity within Berserker. > >I would like to offer my services to Berserker, for a modest compensation >which can be discussed at a later date. I think this is probably something >that Mueller should handle, but I don't know that the current rules allow >him. Sorry, the rules don't recognize any "Nick Osborn," except that he seems to be some kind of shrubbery. Josh -- If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT. - Zappa ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:41:03 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Nomic: A proposal Amend Rule 389 by replacing the OLDDUTIES text with the NEWTRICK text. OLDDUTIES 3. Proposing treaties and agreements as necessary. The Foreign Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn he/she holds Office. OLDDUTIES NEWTRICK 3. Publicly maintaining an archive of these reports. 4. Proposing treaties and agreements as necessary. 5. Tracking and maintaining public records of Awards. It is a priviledge of the Foreign Minister to create and destroy Award Types so long as no more than 1 Award Type is created each week. Further it is a priviledge of the Foreign Minister to bestow these Awards of the appropriate type to players. The Foreign Minister may not be a recipient of any Awards. The Foreign Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn he/she holds Office. NEWTRICK Create a new rule numbered 388 with the following AWARDS delimited text. AWARDS When an Award is bestowed the player upon whom it is bestowed is immortalized as a recipient of that award and is given a Medal of the same type as the Award. Medals are tradeable and sellable if both parties agree publicly to such a thing. If ever someone sells a Medal they have recieved then the Foreign Minister shall record that they are now on The Register Of Shame. If anyone other than the Foreign Minister owns a Medal that they were not given along with an Award, then they are required to sell it to the Foreign Minister for 10 Subers when that officer requests such a sale. It is considered very bad form for the Foreign Minister to allow Medals to languish in the hands of the unworthy. Ancient texts even note that some Foreign Ministers in ancient times were burned at the stake for neglecting this sacred patriotic duty. AWARDS ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:37:35 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments So the winner gets some kind of definite perk, but can still be over-ruled if they come up with a really lame idea. - A.I.N.O.M. ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:46:07 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Nomic: Re: INTO: Starting members You mean an overall currency that isn't necessarily compatable with each individual Nomics' economy? ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:50:07 -0500 From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> Subject: Nomic: a modest proposal Hey, sparkey. I can start one of those little separte games, right? If so, I'm starting up theOfficial Bezerker 0.5-a-side Football League . With only me in it. ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:50:53 -0600 From: Joel D Uckelman Subject: Nomic: Fwd: BOUNCE nomic@iastate.edu: Admin request The majordomo server has been gimpy lately. Here's another bounce: >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:45:01 -0600 (CST) >To: owner-nomic@iastate.edu >From: owner-nomic@iastate.edu >Subject: BOUNCE nomic@iastate.edu: Admin request > >>From uckelman@iastate.edu Tue Jan 12 16:45:00 1999 >Received: from pop-4.iastate.edu (pop-4.iastate.edu [129.186.6.64]) by >majordomo.iastate.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA15511 for >; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:45:00 -0600 (CST) >Received: from hil-img-1.compuserve.com (hil-img-1.compuserve.com >[149.174.177.131]) > by pop-4.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25178 > for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:44:58 -0600 (CST) >Received: (from root@localhost) > by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.17) id RAA00600 > for nomic@iastate.edu; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:44:58 -0500 (EST) >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:44:36 -0500 >From: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Nomic: Fwd: Re: INTO >Sender: RJ KNIGHT <106713.3367@compuserve.com> >To: N >Message-ID: <199901121744_MC2-6666-20C3@compuserve.com> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Disposition: inline >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by majordomo.iastate.edu >id QAA19827 > >I vote for calling us Special Circumstances. Pretty good even if you don't >get the reference. J. Uckelman uckelman@iastate.edu ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:04:26 -0500 From: Mueller Subject: Re: Nomic: Re: INTO: Starting members At 05:46 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >You mean an overall currency that isn't necessarily compatable with each >individual Nomics' economy? > Yes, I've sense begun thinking of them as INTO Action Tokens or something along those lines (considering the discussion of value and currencies on that list). Initally my basic idea was: come up with things that are usefule across many nomics, define those things NOT in the nomics' rules but in a treaty then have a similarly defined store use currency that people in any nomic signed on the treaty could use. This currency would be like a gold standard for each nomic. Perhaps Berserker could have point/INTO and Suber/INTO musket/INTO exchange rates and someone who also played in Agora might convert some P-Notes into INTOs and truck them over here for an emergency lumber shortage. And the "intrinsic value" of INTOs would be described by whatever it was that everyone could turn them into at the INTO defined store. Tom Mueller mueller4@sonic.net ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:07:26 CST From: Josh Subject: Re: Nomic: Cycle of Depends Adult Undergarments RJ KNIGHT writes: >So the winner gets some kind of definite perk, but can still be over-ruled >if they come up with a really lame idea. That could be seen as part of the privelige. Josh -- Prosecutors will be violated. ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:08:04 CST From: Josh Subject: Re: Nomic: Re: INTO: Starting members RJ KNIGHT writes: >You mean an overall currency that isn't necessarily compatable with each >individual Nomics' economy? Ci. -- "Kill them all, God will know His own." - Bishop of Angouleame, when asked how to tell 'true believers' from 'heretics', during the Albigensian Crusades ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:11:47 CST From: Josh Subject: Re: Nomic: a modest proposal RJ KNIGHT writes: >Hey, sparkey. I can start one of those little separte games, right? If so, >I'm starting up theOfficial Bezerker 0.5-a-side Football League Christanthium Society rules>. With only me in it. Er... unless you're going to point out the reference you're making, you haven't yet defined the procedures of play for this game. Josh -- How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought independent of experience, is so admirably adapted to the objects of reality? - Albert Einstein ________________________________________ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:13:28 CST From: Josh Subject: Re: Nomic: A proposal Mueller writes: >Amend Rule 389 by replacing the OLDDUTIES text with the NEWTRICK text. > >OLDDUTIES >3. Proposing treaties and agreements as necessary. > >The Foreign Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn >he/she holds Office. >OLDDUTIES > >NEWTRICK >3. Publicly maintaining an archive of these reports. > >4. Proposing treaties and agreements as necessary. > >5. Tracking and maintaining public records of Awards. > >It is a priviledge of the Foreign Minister to create and destroy Award >Types so long as no more than 1 Award Type is created each week. Further >it is a priviledge of the Foreign Minister to bestow these Awards of the >appropriate type to players. The Foreign Minister may not be a recipient >of any Awards. > >The Foreign Minister shall receive the standard salary for each full turn >he/she holds Office. >NEWTRICK > >Create a new rule numbered 388 with the following AWARDS delimited text. > >AWARDS >When an Award is bestowed the player upon whom it is bestowed is >immortalized as a recipient of that award and is given a Medal of the same >type as the Award. Medals are tradeable and sellable if both parties agree >publicly to such a thing. > >If ever someone sells a Medal they have recieved then the Foreign Minister >shall record that they are now on The Register Of Shame. > >If anyone other than the Foreign Minister owns a Medal that they were not >given along with an Award, then they are required to sell it to the Foreign >Minister for 10 Subers when that officer requests such a sale. > >It is considered very bad form for the Foreign Minister to allow Medals to >languish in the hands of the unworthy. Ancient texts even note that some >Foreign Ministers in ancient times were burned at the stake for neglecting >this sacred patriotic duty. >AWARDS I will vote no for this in this form, as award-keepership is not the providence of the Foreign Minister (at least, according to the "conventional meaning" [shut your mouth, Joel]). If you want that create a separate office. I'd vote for that, and you as officeholder. Josh -- I have no lid / Upon my head But if I did / You could look inside and see what's on my mind - DMB ______________________________________