ackanomic Digest Wednesday, December 09 1998 Volume 03 : Issue 440 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alexandre Muniz Subject: Re: Acka: JAM Purification Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:02:54 -0500 (EST) Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote: > > At 10:51 PM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I suggest and approve that JAM expell two-star from it's ranks. > > > > i approve this. IT happens... i think Indeed it does not. Quite aside from it being an invalid suggestion, unless support for an organizational action is unanimous, it does not occur for 7 days. I may be prohibited from denouncing such an action, but I still count for determining unanimity. **two-star ------------------------------ From: Gabe Drummond-Cole Subject: Acka: CFJ 711 (r-attila the farce) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:35:32 -0500 (EST) r-attila the farce has been selected... AGAIN! Call for Judgment 711 - Dec 9, 1998 Subject: Acronym References Initiator: JT (sent Dec 9 1998, 12:22 Acka) Judge: r-attila the farce Judgement: Statement: JT and Trent are members of the Justified Ancients of Mummu. Reasoning: On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:37:49 -0500 (EST), two-star stated: I admit Trent and JT into JAM. The use of JAM in this context was perfectly understandable to mean 'The Cult of the Justified Ancients of Mummu', and in fact we have a fair amount of game custom (through use) that acronyms for organizations are in fact valid referents to that organization. Since JAM was an unambiguous reference, and since two-star was the Priviledged Player, and the acceptance policy of Justified Ancients of Mummu was Priviledged Single Player, the acceptance happened. -- Trent Acting CotC, Acting Map-Harfer, Acting Thrallmaster, Crazy French-Scotsman, Daring Adventurer, Dungeon Master, Really Weird, Rules-Harfer, Worker Caste, Weird ------------------------------ From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 711 (r-attila the farce) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:37:36 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote: >r-attila the farce has been selected... AGAIN! Methinks someone needs a new/better Random Number Generator :) --JT ------------------------------ From: Gabe Drummond-Cole Subject: Acka: CFJ 692 (/dev/cortex) (TRUE) (upheld) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 02:42:26 -0500 (EST) /dev/cortex has ruled this TRUE and fined the appellant 2 points Call for Judgement 692 - November 9, 1998 Subject: Happy Number Determination Initiator: Alfvaen (sent 9 Nov 1998, 22:31 Acka) Judge: Wild Card (chosen 12 Nov 1998, 05:40 Acka) Judgement: TRUE (promulgated 15 Nov 1998, 11:56 Acka) Appellant: Pol Pot Cortex: /dev/cortex (/dev/joe and Gromit) Judgement: TRUE (upheld) Statement: The Happy Number is 105. Alfvaen's Reasoning: Judge's Reasoning: I agree with the initiator's reasoning. Appellant's Reasoning: rule 205 says: "Retroactive score changes are not permitted, but corrections to the scores are allowed when an error is discovered. This section (6) has precedence over sections 1 thru 5, where there is a conflict." So all of our attempts on the happy number succeeded, even though the scores were wrong. Cortex's Reasoning The rule snippet posted by Pol Pot here is troublesome, in that it seems to be written for a Pragmatic system, where things happen when the officers in charge of tracking them say they happen or have logged that they happen, rather than the Platonic system we have developed with a Pragmatic exception for things that have been tracked incorrectly too long. In a Platonic system, the "Retroactive score changes" bit above doesn't apply here at all, because the scorekeeper's reports only represent an attempt to track the actual scores, and various corrections were noted to the scores which have determined that nobody had a score of 105 when claiming they had a score of the Happy Number. In fact, the one case where it comes closest to mattering goes against what Pol Pot was trying to accomplish here, as it would seem to say that the Pragmatism clause can't kick in to retroactively make incorrectly harfed scores valid, but the Pragmatism clause in R101 has precedence. In a Pragmatic system, the scorekeeper had not yet harfed a score of 105 when it was claimed, so still, nobody had a score of 105 when they claimed the Happy Number. Thus, we rule TRUE, and penalize the appealer 2 points; the small penalty in this case is due to there being no real reasoning on this CFJ until the appealer submitted some; he appears to have been the first person to take a proper look at it. -- Trent Acting CotC, Acting Map-Harfer, Acting Thrallmaster, Crazy French-Scotsman, Daring Adventurer, Dungeon Master, Really Weird, Rules-Harfer, Worker Caste, Weird ------------------------------ From: Jonathan David Amery Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 692 (/dev/cortex) (TRUE) (upheld) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 03:01:08 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote: > Thus, we rule TRUE, and penalize the appealer 2 points; the small penalty > in this case is due to there being no real reasoning on this CFJ until > the appealer submitted some; he appears to have been the first person to > take a proper look at it. Actually Alfvaen posted a reasoning that had for some reason not been on his original CFJ submission, which was the reasoning with which I agreed. -- Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ. ##### http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html o__####### Wild Card of Acka, member of SPAM, wearing Silly Agenda Hats. \'####### Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo. Holding the Silver Key to the Vault. Memo to myself: Do the dumb things I gotta do. Touch the puppethead. ------------------------------ From: "Euphrates" <9720137@tiree.sms.ed.ac.uk> Subject: State change Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:56:28 -0500 (EST) I change my player state to vacationing with a duration of 35 days. Euphrates ------------------------------ From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger) Subject: Re: Acka: Corporations Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:06:00 -0500 (EST) My apologies. While reading the rules page last night I thought I saw something to the effect of "Political Parties are entities..." without mention of being Organizations. I don't know whether my eyes deceived me, whether the rules were not fully updated, or what. There are still problems, but not so many as I thought there were. else..if wrote: >>2) There are references to Organizations all over the rules which now have >>no referrent. Among those is one in the "Voluntary Debt Prohibited" rule. >>This is bad both in that Corporations are less regulated, and in that >>Corporations are less empowered. > There's a rule in the high 1000's which provids info about Orgs. There are still, however, several problems. The following rules all make provisions regarding Organizations in one way or another. Some of them should apply similar provisions to Corporations, and others are broken because of the changes associated with the introduction of Corporations. In some instances this highlights changes that may be appropriate or desired, but which make some or all orgs work differently than they used to do. This is probably not a complete list. Rule 250: Players going On Ice should probably forfeit any corporate shares they hold, just as they are kicked out of any Organizations they are in. Rule 373: Describes how actions may be taken by players and Organizations, but not by Corporations. Rule 422: Corporations are not currently subject to penalties when one of their members posts a prose message while Hosed. Rule 427: The Org-Harfer is not assigned responsability for Corporations. This may be a non-issue, as membership is tracked by who owns shares. Rule 435: The Herald is not required to track Coats of Arms for Corporations. (See also below re R1160.) Rule 501: Corporations are not empowered to accept extranomic entities. This is pretty much a dead issue, of course, but as long as the rule is there.... Rule 505: Total Wealth calculations do not apply to Corporations. I believe that Corporations are capable of being tax shelters. There was some uproar about Trent's recent entity creation attempt, so I presume that this will be even more objectionable. Rule 510: As highlighted recently, Corporate debt is not forbidden. Rule 515: Corporations are not empowered to transfer gift entities. Rule 710: Forfeiture of corporate shares should be a valid CFCJ penalty, just as expulsion from an organization is. Rule 1007: Corporations are not currently able to change their names, although Orgs can. Rule 1009: Political parties can use "Organizational Powers" of which, I believe, none currently exist. (See also below re R1301) Rule 1160: Corporations are not empowered to own Coats of Arms. Rule 1216: Corporations may not Feud. Rule 1217: Corporations cannot find treasures, and, perhaps, may not bury them. Rule 1230.1: Corporations may not buy Party Chess pieces. Rule 1301: Churches can own and use "Organizational Powers" of which none currently exist. ************************************************************************ IMPORTANT: Prop 3883 will take care of Rules 515 and 1009, and prop 3884 will take care of Rule 510. I like the general idea of "Trading Entities," but I do not like that P3883 would make Parties cease to be Organizations. After that, Parties would be unable to do much of anything except form and cast unity votes. They would no longer be able to accept new members, members would no longer be able to leave by any means whatsoever except by becoming non-players, and parties would be unable to do anything with entities or powers that they own [although they already cannot use powers]. Parties would not even cease to exist if all their members managed to leave. ************************************************************************ Rather than further fragment our structures and procedures for assemblages of players, why not bring Corporations back under the Organizational umbrella? The Organization rules are written so as to allow different internal structures and procedures than the default. >>3) It is unclear to me that Corporations can do much of anything other than >>pass or reject motions. Which is to say, I don't see where Corporate >>motions have any effect. Rule 1003 simply gives conditions under which a >>motion passes; it does not say what happens then. I observe that this has >>significant implications for a recent scam attempt. > I don't know what more is needed than a statement that they can >accept a trade. That seems sufficient to let them accept trades. I am not convinced, but I believe I have a stronger argument for the scam not working: Rule 515, which governs trading, only specifies what happens when a _Player_ accepts a trade. Even if OPM was able to accept the trade offered it [of which I am not convinced], nothing happened as a result. The game state only changes as specified by the rules, you know. else..if was correct; the trading rules appear to be full of holes. I also point out that Corporations and Organizations are not empowered to offer trades (P3883 would fix that if passed), but I imagine you already knew that. Can we agree that the scam did not work, or shall I call the CFJ? ThinMan ------------------------------ From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger) Subject: Acka: P3871 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:20:41 -0500 (EST) I am very concerned about P3871. I am not certain about the general idea, but I think that the prop itself has some serious problems. 1) I am concerned that precedence will be broken by the proposed hierarchical system; both because it is unclear how to judge whether one rule number is greater than another and because there are multiple rule number pointers in the precedence clauses of various rules which are not updated by the proposal. 2) I am not sure that the renumbering will work as it is phrased. The rules will all have L numbers equal to their current numbers. The prop will renumber rules LX to HY. X is not the same as LX. If this is supposed to be notationally equivalent then the prop fails to so specify. ThinMan ------------------------------ From: Jonathan David Amery Subject: Re: Acka: P3871 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:25:16 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, John Bollinger wrote: > 1) I am concerned that precedence will be broken by the proposed hierarchical > system; both because it is unclear how to judge whether one rule number is > greater than another and because there are multiple rule number pointers This is specified in the proposal. XX.YY.ZZ > XX.YY.ZZ-1 > XX.YY-1.ZZ -- Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ. ##### http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html o__####### Wild Card of Acka, member of SPAM, wearing Silly Agenda Hats. \'####### Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo. Holding the Silver Key to the Vault. Memo to myself: Do the dumb things I gotta do. Touch the puppethead. ------------------------------ From: Gabe Drummond-Cole Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3871 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:30:22 -0500 (EST) ThinMan: I believe the following fragments from the prop answer your concerns. If it does not, please elaborate so that the prop can be voted down ot retracted with more knowledge. 2) >an L number if is is preceded by L; this is a Class 1 sentence. A rule >number is an L number if the number is preceded by neither; this is a Class >1 sentence. 1) An H number is larger than another H number if the first (from left >to right) integer which differs between the two is larger. When a rule Z1 >is moved to become rule Z2, all its children Z1-X are moved to Z2-X -- Trent Acting CotC, Acting Map-Harfer, Acting Thrallmaster, Crazy French-Scotsman, Daring Adventurer, Dungeon Master, Really Weird, Rules-Harfer, Worker Caste, Weird ------------------------------ From: dice-admin@pbm.com (Dice server) Subject: Acka: Museum Bonus Vote Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:21:27 -0500 (EST) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: K 2 Rolls also sent to: ackanomic@ackanomic.org # Roll 1 of 2 # One less than the 1st roll by ten plus # one less than the 2nd roll. # Winner determined based on the following: # /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 # Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 # Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 # K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 # rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 # smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 # ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 # two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 # Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 # Reroll: 2119-2120 No. of sides on every die: 212 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 57 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@pbm.com vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@pbm.com, or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ ================================================= ** NewHoo Web Directory ** An army of editors surfing the web for you! http://www.NewHoo.com/ ================================================= Original message follows: > From kii@connexus.net.au Wed Dec 9 11:20:42 1998 > Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com > id LAA29192 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:20:42 -0500 > Received: from power.connexus.net.au(203.12.22.20) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3) > id sma029179; Wed Dec 9 08:20:39 1998 > Received: from connexus.net.au (dialin-a3-44.Melbourne.interNex.net.au [203.34.169.174]) > by power.connexus.net.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA23661 > for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 03:20:14 +1100 (EST) > (envelope-from kii@connexus.net.au) > Message-ID: <366E3AAC.37AE173B@connexus.net.au> > Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:54:04 +1100 > From: K 2 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: dice@pbm.com > Subject: Roll 1 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #P ackanomic@ackanomic.org > #S 212 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #T Acka: Museum Bonus Vote > #C Roll 1 of 2 > #C One less than the 1st roll by ten plus > #C one less than the 2nd roll. > #C > #C Winner determined based on the following: > #C > #C /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 > #C Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 > #C Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 > #C K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 > #C rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 > #C smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 > #C ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 > #C two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 > #C Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 > #C Reroll: 2119-2120 > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7 iQCVAwUBNm6jbD8NitsTFjcVAQGjnwP+PZomLrMD+WWvtPlntbQFRJa44bSP+r+1 j5JqTIqKK2lw/QuVNodiCHIv4p0zy7zaAAkMPFK2TjQiMektu0beqsubSy3eo/Sa QeASzgSVSlqoiGYLninYyiiUcVv6ex007G5dLtxMum5RYjsJf92xfAdRgJHlX1Rr fx7fvO/gVmE= =DOim -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ From: dice-admin@pbm.com (Dice server) Subject: Acka: Museum Bonus Vote Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:21:44 -0500 (EST) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: K 2 Rolls also sent to: ackanomic@ackanomic.org # Roll 2 of 2 # One less than the 1st roll by ten plus # one less than the 2nd roll. # Winner determined based on the following: # /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 # Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 # Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 # K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 # rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 # smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 # ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 # two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 # Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 # Reroll: 2119-2120 No. of sides on every die: 10 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 4 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@pbm.com vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@pbm.com, or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ ================================================= ** NewHoo Web Directory ** An army of editors surfing the web for you! http://www.NewHoo.com/ ================================================= Original message follows: > From kii@connexus.net.au Wed Dec 9 11:21:03 1998 > Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com > id LAA29221 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:21:03 -0500 > Received: from power.connexus.net.au(203.12.22.20) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3) > id sma029200; Wed Dec 9 08:20:56 1998 > Received: from connexus.net.au (dialin-a3-44.Melbourne.interNex.net.au [203.34.169.174]) > by power.connexus.net.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA23682 > for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 03:20:40 +1100 (EST) > (envelope-from kii@connexus.net.au) > Message-ID: <366E3AEE.9415AC83@connexus.net.au> > Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:55:10 +1100 > From: K 2 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: dice@pbm.com > Subject: Roll 2 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #P ackanomic@ackanomic.org > #S 10 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #T Acka: Museum Bonus Vote > #C Roll 2 of 2 > #C One less than the 1st roll by ten plus > #C one less than the 2nd roll. > #C > #C Winner determined based on the following: > #C > #C /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 > #C Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 > #C Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 > #C K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 > #C rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 > #C smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 > #C ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 > #C two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 > #C Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 > #C Reroll: 2119-2120 > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7 iQCVAwUBNm6jij8NitsTFjcVAQEgpwP/fA902s/Ielkl1v44Tg5MEJZ8M8ljVRDl W80Nm/6uihrZ9vfNfUnlqw8XqbDNpcYH/wPkXkHVzWkJrsuqfhVmsvwoffZc0tt1 imQKFMpR9fFfVp1e2sJJrRelTDrfwipRAQms1KBtXNic09/jHiRMxK5OdL2D57dF Dus/OWZyl20= =uMa3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ From: K 2 Subject: Re: Acka: Museum Bonus Vote Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:26:39 -0500 (EST) Jenny (aka TEFKA Hubert) recieves this months door prize. It also occours tome that I did do last months door prize, the recipent of which was ThinMan. K 2 Dice server wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Dice rolls requested by: K 2 > Rolls also sent to: > ackanomic@ackanomic.org > > # Roll 2 of 2 > # One less than the 1st roll by ten plus > # one less than the 2nd roll. > # Winner determined based on the following: > # /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 > # Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 > # Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 > # K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 > # rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 > # smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 > # ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 > # two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 > # Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 > # Reroll: 2119-2120 > > No. of sides on every die: 10 > No. of dice for every roll: 1 > No. of dice rolls requested: 1 > No. of rolls per line: 1 > > 4 > > Information on the dice server: > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! > Replies to dice-admin@pbm.com vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. > > For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with > subject "help" to dice@pbm.com, or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ > > The dice server is provided by: > > Shadow Island Games > http://www.pbm.com/ > > ================================================= > ** NewHoo Web Directory ** > An army of editors surfing the web for you! > http://www.NewHoo.com/ > ================================================= > > Original message follows: > > From kii@connexus.net.au Wed Dec 9 11:21:03 1998 > > Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com > > id LAA29221 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:21:03 -0500 > > Received: from power.connexus.net.au(203.12.22.20) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3) > > id sma029200; Wed Dec 9 08:20:56 1998 > > Received: from connexus.net.au (dialin-a3-44.Melbourne.interNex.net.au [203.34.169.174]) > > by power.connexus.net.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA23682 > > for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 03:20:40 +1100 (EST) > > (envelope-from kii@connexus.net.au) > > Message-ID: <366E3AEE.9415AC83@connexus.net.au> > > Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:55:10 +1100 > > From: K 2 > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: dice@pbm.com > > Subject: Roll 2 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > #P ackanomic@ackanomic.org > > #S 10 > > #D 1 > > #R 1 > > #L 1 > > #T Acka: Museum Bonus Vote > > #C Roll 2 of 2 > > #C One less than the 1st roll by ten plus > > #C one less than the 2nd roll. > > #C > > #C Winner determined based on the following: > > #C > > #C /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 > > #C Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 > > #C Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 > > #C K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 > > #C rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 > > #C smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 > > #C ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 > > #C two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 > > #C Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 > > #C Reroll: 2119-2120 > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.7 > > iQCVAwUBNm6jij8NitsTFjcVAQEgpwP/fA902s/Ielkl1v44Tg5MEJZ8M8ljVRDl > W80Nm/6uihrZ9vfNfUnlqw8XqbDNpcYH/wPkXkHVzWkJrsuqfhVmsvwoffZc0tt1 > imQKFMpR9fFfVp1e2sJJrRelTDrfwipRAQms1KBtXNic09/jHiRMxK5OdL2D57dF > Dus/OWZyl20= > =uMa3 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ From: K 2 Subject: Acka: Payday Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:37:37 -0500 (EST) Jenny : Chess Umpire r-attila the farce : General Contractor Slakko : Clerk of the Courts, Map-Harfer, Web-Harfer, Thrall Master Studge : Count Tabula MTM. : CSRR Trent : Dungeon Master, Rule-Harfer K 2 : Financier, Chartreuse Goose, Org-Harfer, Scorekeeper, Treasure-Harfer JT : Herald, Postmaster, Registar, Speaker, Trinket Harfer /dev/joe : Promotor, Tabulator I think thats everybody.... K 2 ------------------------------ From: K 2 Subject: Re: Acka: JAM Purification Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:38:06 -0500 (EST) I ask to join JAM / Justified ancients I don't sign the contract but state my intent to object to any action that would evict a player other than myself from JAM. K 2 Alexandre Muniz wrote: > Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote: > > > > At 10:51 PM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >I suggest and approve that JAM expell two-star from it's ranks. > > > > > > > i approve this. IT happens... i think > > Indeed it does not. Quite aside from it being an invalid suggestion, > unless support for an organizational action is unanimous, it does not > occur for 7 days. I may be prohibited from denouncing such an action, > but I still count for determining unanimity. > > **two-star ------------------------------ From: dice-admin@pbm.com (Dice server) Subject: Acka: Museum Bonus Vote Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:38:10 -0500 (EST) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dice rolls requested by: K 2 Rolls also sent to: ackanomic@ackanomic.org # Roll 2 of 2 # One less than the 1st roll by ten plus # one less than the 2nd roll. # Winner determined based on the following: # /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 # Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 # Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 # K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 # rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 # smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 # ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 # two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 # Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 # Reroll: 2119-2120 No. of sides on every die: 10 No. of dice for every roll: 1 No. of dice rolls requested: 1 No. of rolls per line: 1 9 Information on the dice server: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE! Replies to dice-admin@pbm.com vanish into a seldom-read mailbox. For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with subject "help" to dice@pbm.com, or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/ The dice server is provided by: Shadow Island Games http://www.pbm.com/ ================================================= ** NewHoo Web Directory ** An army of editors surfing the web for you! http://www.NewHoo.com/ ================================================= Original message follows: > From kii@connexus.net.au Wed Dec 9 11:37:37 1998 > Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com > id LAA00637 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:37:37 -0500 > Received: from power.connexus.net.au(203.12.22.20) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3) > id sma000632; Wed Dec 9 08:37:32 1998 > Received: from connexus.net.au (dialin-a3-44.Melbourne.interNex.net.au [203.34.169.174]) > by power.connexus.net.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA24078 > for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 03:37:28 +1100 (EST) > (envelope-from kii@connexus.net.au) > Message-ID: <366E3AEE.9415AC83@connexus.net.au> > Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:55:10 +1100 > From: K 2 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: dice@pbm.com > Subject: Roll 2 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > #P ackanomic@ackanomic.org > #S 10 > #D 1 > #R 1 > #L 1 > #T Acka: Museum Bonus Vote > #C Roll 2 of 2 > #C One less than the 1st roll by ten plus > #C one less than the 2nd roll. > #C > #C Winner determined based on the following: > #C > #C /dev/joe's BV is A$ 1: 1-1 > #C Alfvaen's BV is A$ 2: 2-3 > #C Jenny's BV is A$ 864: 4-867 > #C K 2's BV is A$ 110: 868-977 > #C rufus's BV is A$ 1: 978-978 > #C smallpox blanket's BV is A$ 8: 979-986 > #C ThinMan's BV is A$ 1059: 987-2045 > #C two-star's BV is A$ 8: 2046-2053 > #C Vynd's BV is A$ 65: 2054-2118 > #C Reroll: 2119-2120 > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7 iQCVAwUBNm6nYD8NitsTFjcVAQEQdwP9FkiRc0a5en67CAMAYa4Ct/pywzxB/xM/ I0nSTA2phJc4ySbN6q7k72S41FuZ9uMYX03NRAZZUbL0WBOxPk7JK4TBNrUhSFon uSCox7t1kyKd0ZqZRhncx5lNOc8pgTZp3xjEZJy0E0rwcJVpfjYniTXPkHmcHfHT 5WHiQeNJ0ik= =J0GA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ From: K 2 Subject: Acka: A Founding Foundling but failing to make a motion Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:38:11 -0500 (EST) I see several flaws in this action and the actions that followed it: 1) A player can make an offer *to* an entity without the approval of any other entity. i.e. Trent's message is a player message not an motion for a corporation. I'm sure e approves of eir offer - e just made it and while JT and else...if's approval are all well and good it makes no progress toward tabling a motion or suggesting an action for OPM. 2) When an suggestion made for an organisation is accepted it attempts it and effects follow. After a motion for a corporation passes nothing happens. Rule 1003 outlines which motions are valid, how they are accepted but not what happens when they are... the motion was accepted - so what? Or rather if the motion is made and the accepted so what? The Org rule used to say what happened when a suggestion was accepted; implying mear acceptance wasn't enough.... K 2 I call a Corruption hearing against OPM for attempting to abuse the rules. I am the hearing harfer. The valid votes are "They're just honest business people, and besides, everyone does it" and "Split 'em up like Ma Bell!". Gabe Drummond-Cole wrote: > I offer OPM the trinket "The Previous Sentence" in exchange for A$3000 > I approve of this > -- > Trent > > Acting CotC, Acting Map-Harfer, Acting Thrallmaster, Crazy French-Scotsman, > Daring Adventurer, Dungeon Master, Really Weird, Rules-Harfer, Worker > Caste, Weird ------------------------------ From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: P3871 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:55:46 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, John Bollinger wrote: >I am very concerned about P3871. I am not certain about the general idea, >but I think that the prop itself has some serious problems. > >1) I am concerned that precedence will be broken by the proposed hierarchical > system; both because it is unclear how to judge whether one rule number is > greater than another and because there are multiple rule number pointers > in the precedence clauses of various rules which are not updated by the > proposal. I believe in-rule rule pointers are required to be updated by the rule-harfer, but I could be misremembering the rules and don't have the time to check them thoroughly for the moment. I do believe that the precedence rules work as long as something says that a rule has precedence by default over it's decendant, and then bases global precedence on the first 'locator' in an H number. If those two things weren't in fact done (again, a bit too busy momentarily to go check), then I would urge else...if to retract, cleanup and resubmit the prop. >2) I am not sure that the renumbering will work as it is phrased. The rules > will all have L numbers equal to their current numbers. The prop will > renumber rules LX to HY. X is not the same as LX. If this is supposed > to be notationally equivalent then the prop fails to so specify. I thought he specified above that LX was the rules L number, or at least it seemed to on my reading, but if it wasn't clear to you, then I probably read into it more than was there. I will say that I think a heirarchical ruleset would be cleaner and would make it easier to find things and keep related things together and so would like it. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ From: Jonathan David Amery Subject: Re: Acka: A Founding Foundling but failing to make a motion Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:01:54 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, K 2 wrote: > and besides, everyone does it" and "Split 'em up like Ma Bell!". Split them up like British Rail. (I note this is unambigous...) -- Jonathan David Amery, Trinity Hall, CAMBRIDGE, CB2 1TJ. ##### http://www.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/~jda23/home.html o__####### Wild Card of Acka, member of SPAM, wearing Silly Agenda Hats. \'####### Follower of Banna, the EBS and Odo. Holding the Silver Key to the Vault. Memo to myself: Do the dumb things I gotta do. Touch the puppethead. ------------------------------ From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: Corporations Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:25:48 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, John Bollinger wrote: >Rule 250: Players going On Ice should probably forfeit any corporate shares >they hold, just as they are kicked out of any Organizations they are in. I mentioned this to else...if as well, he said this was by design. >Rule 1007: Corporations are not currently able to change their names, >although Orgs can. Assuming motions are actually legal (which I'm coming to believe aren't actually sufficient, since the corp really does need to attempt the action after the motion to do it has been passed) then this is covered. If it's not covered currently, then a prop making a corp attempt the actions suggested in valid motions which pass would be sufficient to fix this and a number of other things. I agree that the rest of your points are oversights and probably should be fixed btw, just commenting on the two I believe to be 'covered' or close to covered. >************************************************************************ > >IMPORTANT: > >Prop 3883 will take care of Rules 515 and 1009, and prop 3884 will take care >of Rule 510. I like the general idea of "Trading Entities," but I do not >like that P3883 would make Parties cease to be Organizations. After that, >Parties would be unable to do much of anything except form and cast unity >votes. They would no longer be able to accept new members, members would >no longer be able to leave by any means whatsoever except by becoming >non-players, and parties would be unable to do anything with entities or >powers that they own [although they already cannot use powers]. Parties >would not even cease to exist if all their members managed to leave. This is worth me changing my vote on 3883 as I hadn't noticed that. >I am not convinced, but I believe I have a stronger argument for the scam >not working: > >Rule 515, which governs trading, only specifies what happens when a _Player_ >accepts a trade. Even if OPM was able to accept the trade offered it [of >which I am not convinced], nothing happened as a result. The game state >only changes as specified by the rules, you know. else..if was correct; the >trading rules appear to be full of holes. I also point out that Corporations >and Organizations are not empowered to offer trades (P3883 would fix that >if passed), but I imagine you already knew that. I believe that (as with orgs), that any rule stating that the org can accept trades is sufficient to empower that as it doesn't conflict with rule 515. The definition of what happens when a trade is accepted (assuming that it's phrased more generally, which again, I don't have time to check for the moment) needs only be in one place and then should work. Therefore, if the fact that a motion passed was enough to cause the action to be attempted (and as I said above, I'm beginning to be swayed that it was not), the motion definition itself was enough to allow this to work. The only reason it might work is the fact that rules allow us to fall back on game custom when they are silent. The rules are in fact silent on what 'a motion passing' means. However, game custom allows us to take that as using the common english meaning. Most of us have some degree of real-world experience, and we do have an understanding of what it means for a corporation to pass a motion. This might be sufficient to allow it to have worked. >Can we agree that the scam did not work, or shall I call the CFJ? Because of the above I would prefer to see this submitted to a CFJ. --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger) Subject: Re: Acka: Corporations Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:22:37 -0500 (EST) JT wrote: >On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, John Bollinger wrote: >>Rule 250: Players going On Ice should probably forfeit any corporate shares >>they hold, just as they are kicked out of any Organizations they are in. > >I mentioned this to else...if as well, he said this was by design. Alright. I'll have to think about it before I decide whether to try to change it. >>Rule 1007: Corporations are not currently able to change their names, >>although Orgs can. > >Assuming motions are actually legal (which I'm coming to believe aren't >actually sufficient, since the corp really does need to attempt the action >after the motion to do it has been passed) then this is covered. If it's >not covered currently, then a prop making a corp attempt the actions >suggested in valid motions which pass would be sufficient to fix this and >a number of other things. Okay. >>************************************************************************ >> >>IMPORTANT: >> >>Prop 3883 will take care of Rules 515 and 1009, and prop 3884 will take care >>of Rule 510. I like the general idea of "Trading Entities," but I do not >>like that P3883 would make Parties cease to be Organizations. After that, >>Parties would be unable to do much of anything except form and cast unity >>votes. They would no longer be able to accept new members, members would >>no longer be able to leave by any means whatsoever except by becoming >>non-players, and parties would be unable to do anything with entities or >>powers that they own [although they already cannot use powers]. Parties >>would not even cease to exist if all their members managed to leave. > >This is worth me changing my vote on 3883 as I hadn't noticed that. There is no point in voting for P3884 if you don't vote for P3883, as P3884 will pretty much clobber R515 if Trading Entities are not defined. >>I am not convinced, but I believe I have a stronger argument for the scam >>not working: >> >>Rule 515, which governs trading, only specifies what happens when a _Player_ >>accepts a trade. Even if OPM was able to accept the trade offered it [of >>which I am not convinced], nothing happened as a result. The game state >>only changes as specified by the rules, you know. else..if was correct; the >>trading rules appear to be full of holes. I also point out that Corporations >>and Organizations are not empowered to offer trades (P3883 would fix that >>if passed), but I imagine you already knew that. > >I believe that (as with orgs), that any rule stating that the org can >accept trades is sufficient to empower that as it doesn't conflict with >rule 515. The definition of what happens when a trade is accepted >(assuming that it's phrased more generally, which again, I don't have time >to check for the moment) needs only be in one place and then should work. >Therefore, if the fact that a motion passed was enough to cause the action >to be attempted (and as I said above, I'm beginning to be swayed that it >was not), the motion definition itself was enough to allow this to work. The rule only specifies what happens when a player accepts a trade. It has no more generally applicable wording. I believe that at one time the Org Power known as a Trading License said that an Org so empowered could make trades as if it were a player, or something to that effect. Such wording would work with the rule as it is, but the current situation does not. This is not new with Corps, I don't think, so thank God for the pragmatism clause. >The only reason it might work is the fact that rules allow us to fall back >on game custom when they are silent. The rules are in fact silent on >what 'a motion passing' means. However, game custom allows us to take >that as using the common english meaning. Most of us have some degree of >real-world experience, and we do have an understanding of what it means >for a corporation to pass a motion. This might be sufficient to allow it >to have worked. > >>Can we agree that the scam did not work, or shall I call the CFJ? > >Because of the above I would prefer to see this submitted to a CFJ. Very well. Who is acting CotC again? ThinMan ------------------------------ End of ackanomic Digest V3 #440 *******************************