From: owner-acka-research-digest@muppetlabs.com (acka-research-digest) To: acka-research-digest@muppetlabs.com Subject: acka-research-digest V3 #200 Reply-To: acka-research@muppetlabs.com Sender: owner-acka-research-digest@muppetlabs.com Errors-To: owner-acka-research-digest@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk acka-research-digest Wednesday, August 26 1998 Volume 03 : Number 200 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:49:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Uri Bruck Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3462 On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Niccolo Flychuck wrote: > > > Even Tammany or Bonus Votes alone are more interesting than this > > suggestion, and not too complex as they are. > > Tammany+Bonus Votes give a maximum of 5 non-player votes per proposal, > > putting aside the number of Parties. Your system would give way too many > > non-player votes per proposal. > > Ummm, no. They are not non-player votes - each is associated with a Semantics. They are non-player votes in the same way that Bonus Votes are non-player votes. Bonus votes are also associated with the palyers who submitted them, and tammany is loosely associated with the set of players who gave the higher bribe. Those votes are in addition to the one vote each player gets. Voting systems are about balance, whether this balance is implicit or explicit is of little import. Bonus Votes and Tammany have reasonable limitations and balance. Unlimited extra votes are not balanced. Niccolo Flychuck > particular player. The system is basically a question of "how strongly > do you care aboutthis issue?" - care a little and you just vote normally, > care a lot and you have to tell everyone and spend some money. It's still > your vote, it is just that it counts for 2. > > - -- > Duncan C. "" Richer aka > Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College > Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc > Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator > > ------------------------------ > > End of acka-research-digest V3 #199 > *********************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:10:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Duncan Richer Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3462 On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Uri Bruck wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Duncan Richer wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Niccolo Flychuck wrote: > > > > > Even Tammany or Bonus Votes alone are more interesting than this > > > suggestion, and not too complex as they are. > > > Tammany+Bonus Votes give a maximum of 5 non-player votes per proposal, > > > putting aside the number of Parties. Your system would give way too many > > > non-player votes per proposal. > > > > Ummm, no. They are not non-player votes - each is associated with a > Semantics. They are non-player votes in the same way that Bonus Votes are > non-player votes. Bonus votes are also associated with the palyers who > submitted them, and tammany is loosely associated with the set of players > who gave the higher bribe. Those votes are in addition to the one vote > each player gets. > Voting systems are about balance, whether this balance is implicit or > explicit is of little import. Bonus Votes and Tammany have reasonable > limitations and balance. Unlimited extra votes are not balanced. I don't see what the problem is. The limit is one per person. The new system would not reduce the minimum conspiracy size, in fact because it would allow only one avenue for doubling your vote strength it might increase that size. If 10 people all want to spend A$100 on a proposal to ensure it passes, then fine by me - I see no reason why only 5 of them should be allowed to do so. If they have to do it publicly, then any sufficiently large opposition group will see what is going on, and choose to spend money itself if it is deemed necessary to counteract the proposal. - -- Duncan C. "" Richer aka Slakko (Lost) Warner - http://dcr24.quns.cam.ac.uk/ - Queens' College Cambridge, 1st Year PhD(Pure Maths), CUDipSoc, CUSFS, CUSTS, CURS etc Ackanomic - Web-Harfer, CotC, ChessUmpire, Map-Harfer, Senator ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:00 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3472 JT wrote: > On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, nomicbot wrote: > >{{[Defining Net Worth]}} > >Net Worth is a characteristic possessed by all tradeable entities which > > Umm. what happens when a player has negative A$ and no trinkets? I would > think this should make their net worth negative, but this wouldn't allow > that. fortunately Players aren't Tradeable entities. > Also, you might now be required to track each A$ seperately to track the > Net Worth of that A$, which might be a bad thing. Only if the rules altered a particular A$'s net worth - which they don't can't do at the moment; 'course if the rules were change to make each Tradeable entity's net worth equal to eir most recent auction price I would have to track MTM's aquastition separately :). > >If the amount of A$s in circulation plus sum of the Net Worth of all > >Tradeable Entities exceeded the amount in the Treasury at the time this > >winner was declared, the following shall occur: 20% (round down) of each > >Entity's Total Wealth is owed to the Treasury. The winner shall owe only > >10% (round down), however. > > This tromps all over another proposal in the queue you realize :) but that pre-supposes that the other passes... I'm glad you have faith in my proposals :) I should have made it compatible tho... what the heck - I donate 1A$ to the twits; in celebration of my twitiness; I DON'T retract it :) K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:10 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Acka: Proposal 3473] Aaron V. Humphrey wrote: > > Having exhasted my french I donate A$1 to the twits. > > The problem is this proposal and the one after it are dependent on one > > another - retract one retract the other..... > > Are you doing this, or not? > as yet - not; maybe later :) K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:15 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3479 Brian Raiter wrote: > > Proposal 3479 > > Just what are you hiding /dev/joe? > > K 2 (Kelly Kelly) > > > > This is Aardvark is a Modest Proposal. > > (What is up with all these inoperative sentences being added to > proposals these days, anyway?) I'm gearing up to change the designations to something silly :)I think section VIII of Rule 340 still makes this a modest proposal tho... > > {{[It just occurred to me that at some time in the past a whole heap of > > rules could have been hidden by eir own precedence within the rule set; > > Ackanomic could be a completely different game to what we think it is. > > Are those "Promoter Errors" or something much more sinister? So I > > figure, if we already have so many hidden rules, why not one more? :) > > ]}} > > This basic idea has been proposed at least once before. snowgod, I > believe it was, once submitted a proposal that would have required > Ackanomic to maintain a campaign of taking over other Nomics, and this > proposal required all traces of itself to be removed from the web > pages. I don't remember its number, but it's in the archives, since it > didn't pass. Yes, but how many of "this type of proposal" did pass in the past? {{All players shall forget that this proposal passed}} > > Amend rule 42 (The Oldest Rule in the Book) to read in full: > > > > I. The Cover up > > a) The proposal (including its number, title, author and any other > > associated text) which added this text to this rule shall be > > represented by "" in the proposal archive and its absence shall be > > attributed to "Promoter Error". > > Removing the *number* is going a bit far, don't you think? > > > Any messages used to distribute or report the results of the > > proposal shall be removed from the mail archives if possible. > > Oh, come on. It's bad enough having to diddle with the proposal > archive (which I consider sacrosanct), but I'd really rather you > didn't make me edit the mail archives! Don't deny it - you've done it before - you can't fool me :) K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:22 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: End of Cycle JT wrote: > b) All Chartreuse Goose Eggs, Right Hand Grapefruit, and unworn Agenda > Hats (and Eggplants associated with them) are destroyed. Just about everyone had a goose egg - and they are all gone now... likewise else...if can kiss goodbye to eir RHG. > e) End of Cycle Taxes Ice Total Wealth Tax Astro 760 152 Ayla 538 107 Bascule 383 76 Brinjal 282 56 Chaos 1113 222 Crackfoo 220 44 Enigma 727 145 Guy Fawkes 4141 828 Horny Protoceratops 802 160 Illusion 876 175 Karma 123 24 mr cwm 508 101 Mr. Lunatic Fringe 44 8 Publius 936 187 saaremaa 224 44 this is not a name 224 44 Tom Kitten 721 144 UglyBigNose 745 149 Societies Mad Hatters 183 36 SHEEP 160 32 Shell#10 40 8 The Moral Kiosk 40 8 The Twits 159 31 Players 867-5309 77 15 Alfvaen 1540 308 Attila the Pun 927 185 breadbox 2037 407 Calvin N Hobbes 521 104 /dev/joe 504 50** else…if 204 40 Ethelred 639 127 Fortunato 321 64 Goldenmean 92 18 IbiotBoy 438 87 J. M. Bear 305 61 Joe Java 217 43 JT 655 131 K 2 1020 204 Koxvolio 186 37 Memo 900 180 Mr. Tambourine Man 484 96 Niccolo Flychuck 511 102 Piz 959 191 Rex Mundi 595 119 Rig R. Mortis 909 181 Robin Hood 955 191 rufus 94 18 Slakko 804 160 Studge 939 187 ThinMan 1256 251 Tin Observer 894 178 two-star 946 189 Vynd 974 194 Wild Card -3 -1 ???? Zaknafein Dourden 746 149 Party HARF 240 48 MetaMorph 1368 273 The Razor Boomerangs 311 62 Vulcan 412 82 Church The Church of Azpiazu 5 1 The Church of banna 9 1 The Church of Odo on the Wormhole 114 22 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:23 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: End of Cycle Joseph W. DeVincentis wrote: > > c) /dev/joe is given the title 'Winner of the Cycle' and is given a Right- > > Handed Grapefruit and a Badge of Glory. > > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. > I make Right-Handed Grapefruit Juice. Hey I had to count them. Just as well you didn't make any more, I don't have that many fingers. > Anyway, I'll be sending a test message out to the acka-senate@muppetlabs.com > mailing list soon. All senators, please make sure you are subscribed to > this list. when you have a list i'll collect and post it on then moon page I created some time ago.... > /dev/joe > Sage o' Doe Gas 'Bout time someone won that way :) k 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:24 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3486 Tom Walmsley wrote: > >Create a new rule called "Government Type: Proportional Representation" > >numbered 320.5 reading as follows: > > > >" > >When Fundamentalism is the Proto-Government the OiCoRT should also select > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Ack!! Damn sloppy cut and pastes! I donate A$1 to the twits. I retract > proposal 3486. Before I resubmit though, does anyone else have any other > comments on this? I'll probably be resubmitting some time tomorrow otherwise. > > MTM. > I liked the concept but some of the suggested governments were ummm.... K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:27 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Eleusis Game 1 - Round 2 - 867-5309's play Jenny wrote: > I proxy my approval to [...] the AVPP [...] Nope. > I gift an Otzma Card Lay Off! to K 2. Ta. > I gift the trinket known as "$100" to Slakko; a memento of failed campaign > promises. > I aim my Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at > IdiotBoy, press the red button marked "ENERGIZE," and supply the anagram > "Oy, I Bi Bot." (This is what I get for perusing the P/E page.) IdiotBoy -> Oy, I Bi Bot ????? where's the D? > I read the currently open page of my Spell Book of Chorg, if I can. Page 8 was read some time around 12/08/1998 2:35:41, so you can :) > I bury all my tradeable entities as a Treasure with a map resembling the > following: "This Treasure shall be found by the player whose every public > message during 867-5309's absence satisfies the conditions for being Hosed > by a BWG Laser; or, e can transfer A$79 to 867-5309 for each message which > does not meet those criteria." Net Value of this treasure ~ A$868 ~ 10 public messages not to metion the otzma cards (OFF, OGF, OSYI, OTS ) and gadgets (RBBT and SBoC). While I'm here since e didn't exclude eir SBoC in the burial action e no longer has it to give to JT.... K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:25:30 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 644 (TRUE) Duncan Richer wrote: > 867-5309 has ruled this TRUE without reasoning. > > Call for Judgement 644 - August 22, 1998 > Subject: Happy Number Timing > Initiator: Alfvaen (sent 22 Aug 1998, 00:04 Acka) > Judge: 867-5309 (selected 22 Aug 1998, 04:21 Acka) > Verdict: TRUE > > Statement: > > The Happy Number is 105. > Vile deceiver. I am using my powers as financier to strip Alfvaen of the automatic sculpture e has in the thread that no longer exists :) > Judge's Reasoning: > > [none] I would have preferred some reasoning - even if only to say "I agree completely with the initiator and gift em all my tradable entities". K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:16:41 -0400 (EDT) From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3488 On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, nomicbot wrote: >Proposal 3488 >Let's all go point swimming >else...if (Henry Towsner) > Create a new rule reading as delimited by TIMEDELAY > >TIMEDELAY > The following HEREGOESNOTHING-delimited text will not do anything >until two weeks from when this rule is created, at which point it will take >effect. Something just occured to me. What happens to all of those proposals in the queue who were submitted before the 2 weeks expire, but the voting period expires after the time-delay takes effect? It would seem as if noone will gain any points for those proposals period (IE, that they would have their kick-in set to 0 for all players). It might have been better to have included some wording forcing those proposals to have at least a 1 point kick-in or specifying it somehow. - --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: Eleusis Game 1 - Round 2 - 867-5309's play On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, K2 wrote: >IdiotBoy -> Oy, I Bi Bot ????? where's the D? Heh.. I missed that as well.. thank you. He was not infact renamed Oy, I Bi Bot. - --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:36:40 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 646 (FALSE) Duncan Richer wrote: > JT has judged this one FALSE. > Call for Judgement 646 - August 24, 1998 > Subject: Location of the Chartreuse Goose > Initiator: Tom Walmsley (sent 24 August 1998 16:22 Acka) > Judge: JT (selected 24 August 1998 17:06 Acka) > Judgement: FALSE > > Statement: > The Chartreuse Goose is Somewhere Else. > > Judge's Reasoning: > Looking through the archives, provides the following information. > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:41:40 -0400 (EDT), Alfvaen returned the judgement > of FALSE on CFJ 630, giving the Chartreuse Goose to /dev/joe. > On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:43:47 -0400 (EDT), Rex Mundi read from the > Ackanomicon and read the page 'Ancient One' which gave him the Goose. Not that it makes any difference to the ruling but on 02 Aug 1998 13:29:33 Vynd ruled MTM's PW-CFJ FALSE. K 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:36:46 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Offices: Bad Rhyme I accordance with my election promises I am setting the following player's houses on fire: Rig R. Mortis Mr. Tambourine Man JT & EBS 867-5309 (I'm sure I'm doing this even if e is On Vacation) I would ask the map harfer to duly note this Fact :) K 2 K2 wrote: > Tom Walmsley wrote: > > > At 05:52 21/08/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >> For dungeone master there were two nominees: > > >> > > >> Mr. Tambourine Man > > >> K 2 > > > > > >Okay, we've only just created the need for this Office, so we, the > > >voting populace, are wanting for criteria regarding who to vote for. > > >I'd like to see a few words from each candidate on why we should vote > > >for em. In rhyme. > > > > I'd love to, really I would, but I'm going away for a couple of days in > > about half an hour's time. So, unfortunately, I don't have the time :-). > > Ha! The opposition admits its flaw! > Eir time is taxed. Show em the door. > When evil monsters are seen to lurk, > The Dungeon Master must go berserk. > Not cower away in some forgotten land > with both eir heads implanted in the sand. > > As Dungeon Master I will provide > to every player who takes my side > uncommon wisdom and intelligence > and never shall I show em negligence. > A firm hand shall I show to villains > and to bribe I'll not cost billions. > > In summary, it must be said, > the choice is clear, it's easily read. > K 2's the one you all should choose. > A vote for em just can not lose. > E'll give to you, your very hearts desire; > Unelected - your house on fire. > > K 2 > > > MTM. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:36:51 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Retractions? Aaron V. Humphrey wrote: > 1. It looks like I missed Attila the Pun's retraction of P3411, so e had > two points less at the end of Cycle 23, as well as at the end of the last > Bond Cycle, so that's A$4 less. Sorry. Bad Alfvaen. > 2. Did K 2 ever retract his batch of verbless blueprint-referencing > Proposals? I don't have a record of that in my pointlogs either. yes. On or about the 17 Aug 1998 09:38:08 - let me know how this effects things. > 3. For that matter, has K 2 retracted eir rulenumberless Proposal and > its Siamese twin either? Nope. > -- > --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ ) > Song In My Head--The Infidels:100 Watt Bulb > Current Book--S.M. Stirling:Marching Through Georgia > About sixty codfish eggs will make a quarter pound of very fizzy jelly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:43:30 -0400 (EDT) From: K2 Subject: Re: Acka: Something odd. Why is my mind screeming SCAM? K 2 JT wrote: > I hope you will all pardon me for this, and I know it will seem odd, but > I actually have a method for my madness. > > I grab Red Barn's Donkey. > > (since neither he nor I are in a game of GAD, I cannot see that this has > any game effect, but I do it anyway :) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:47:09 -0400 (EDT) From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 646 (FALSE) On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, K2 wrote: >Not that it makes any difference to the ruling but on 02 Aug 1998 13:29:33 >Vynd ruled MTM's PW-CFJ FALSE. Ahhh.. I missed that when I was searching. All I needed to do though was show that the Goose wasn't in the possession of /dev/joe however, and I did do that. Thanks. And now of course IdiotBoy has the goose from his reading of the ackanomicon. - --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: Offices: Bad Rhyme On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, K2 wrote: >I accordance with my election promises I am setting the following player's >houses on fire: >JT & EBS Since setting my house on fire isn't mandated by the rules, neither is extinguishing the fire, which I do while remaining at the AIGR and calling down rain from the heavens (another non-regulated act) to extinguish the fire that is burning in my house. >I would ask the map harfer to duly note this Fact :) I ask the Map Harfer to duly note the fact that my house is not burning. - --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:51:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Towsner Subject: Re: Acka: Proposal 3488 >Something just occured to me. What happens to all of those proposals in >the queue who were submitted before the 2 weeks expire, but the voting >period expires after the time-delay takes effect? It would seem as if >noone will gain any points for those proposals period (IE, that they would >have their kick-in set to 0 for all players). It might have been better >to have included some wording forcing those proposals to have at least a 1 >point kick-in or specifying it somehow. You're probably right, but it's not a huge problem, and it's already submitted, so I won't worry about it. - -- - -Henry Towsner Thank heavens, the sun has gone in, and I don't have to go out and enjoy it. -Logan Pearsall Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:53:19 -0400 (EDT) From: JT Subject: Re: Acka: Something odd. On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, K2 wrote: >Why is my mind screeming SCAM? I swear on my grave (well, my future grave I guess) that there is no attempt at a scam here, merely something odd. - --JT [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:45:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Miller Subject: Re: Acka: Eleusis Game 1 - Round 2 - 867-5309's play On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, JT wrote: > On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, K2 wrote: > >IdiotBoy -> Oy, I Bi Bot ????? where's the D? > > Heh.. I missed that as well.. thank you. He was not infact renamed Oy, I > Bi Bot. > I didn't.. but I did miss the message that changed my name, so I didn't know where to complain. IB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Miller Subject: Re: Acka: CFJ 646 (FALSE) On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, JT wrote: > On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, K2 wrote: > >Not that it makes any difference to the ruling but on 02 Aug 1998 13:29:33 > >Vynd ruled MTM's PW-CFJ FALSE. > > Ahhh.. I missed that when I was searching. All I needed to do though was > show that the Goose wasn't in the possession of /dev/joe however, and I > did do that. Thanks. And now of course IdiotBoy has the goose from his > reading of the ackanomicon. > If you've got a problem, yo, I'll solve it. IB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:23:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Raiter Subject: Re: Acka: Eleusis Game 1 - Round 2 - 867-5309's play >> I aim my Really Big Blue Thing That Doesn't Do Too Much, Really at >> IdiotBoy, press the red button marked "ENERGIZE," and supply the anagram >> "Oy, I Bi Bot." (This is what I get for perusing the P/E page.) > > IdiotBoy -> Oy, I Bi Bot ????? where's the D? DOH! (sigh) Excuse me, I have a bunch of files I need to go edit. breadbox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:59:30 -0400 (EDT) From: alfvaen@telusplanet.net (Aaron V. Humphrey) Subject: Re: Acka: Retractions? > > 2. Did K 2 ever retract his batch of verbless blueprint-referencing > > Proposals? I don't have a record of that in my pointlogs either. > yes. On or about the 17 Aug 1998 09:38:08 - let me know how this effects > things. Well, it seems that there were eight retractions there, so 16 points less for you, and thus A$16 less on those Fortnightly Dividends and A$16 less at the end of the Cycle. - -- - --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.connect.ab.ca/~alfvaen/ ) Current Album--Beck:Odelay Current Book--S.M. Stirling:Marching Through Georgia You will not swallow every sugar-rock you find. --billbill ------------------------------ End of acka-research-digest V3 #200 ***********************************