From: owner-acka-games@wilma.che.utexas.edu (Ackanomic Games Digest) To: acka-games-digest Subject: Ackanomic Games Digest V2 #70 Reply-To: acka-games@wilma.che.utexas.edu Sender: owner-acka-games@wilma.che.utexas.edu Errors-To: owner-acka-games@wilma.che.utexas.edu Precedence: bulk Ackanomic Games Digest Wednesday, May 21 1997 Volume 02 : Number 070 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:46:10 +0000 From: dijk1310@worldaccess.nl Subject: Re: Acka: Viruses grid 5 > The virus grid of round 5 > G's /'s *'s T's W's A's H's Guy Fawkes dev/joe two-star Thin Man mr cwm Alfvean Habeus Corpus 4 S F5-E4 4 P I14 4 4 P D5 4 S J10-I11 4 P E13 4 I F10 5 P E6 5 P H16 5 P G4 5 S L6-M7 5 P J12 5 P D15 5 S F10-E9 > > > This the board before generation. > > B C D E F G H I J K L M N O > > 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 > 16 . . . . . . / . . . . . . . 16 > 15 . . A . . / / . . . . . . . 15 > 14 . . . A . . . / . . . . . . 14 > 13 . . . A . . . . . . . . . . 13 > 12 . . @ . . . . . W . . . . . 12 > 11 . . . / H H W W . W W . . . 11 > 10 . . . @ H H . . . . . . . . 10 > 9 . . . @ . @ . . * . * . . . 9 > 8 . . . G . T T * * . * . . . 8 > 7 . . G . . . . . . . @ T . . 7 > 6 . . . G . . . . H . . T . . 6 > 5 . . T . . . . . . . T . . . 5 > 4 . . . G G * . * @ @ @ . . . 4 > 3 . . . G . @ . . A A . . . . 3 > 2 . . . . G @ W . . . . . . . 2 > 1 . . . . . @ W . . . . . . . 1 > 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 > -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 > > B C D E F G H I J K L M N O > Proposed next virus grid, the next round start at the moment that another player acknowledge that its without mistakes or post the corrected grid. (This time I want to be save.) B C D E F G H I J K L M N O 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 16 . . . . . / / . . . . . . . 16 15 . . . . . / / / . . . . . . 15 14 . . A A @ . / / . . . . . . 14 13 . . A A . . . . . . . . . . 13 12 . . @ . . @ @ W W W . . . . 12 11 . . / / . . W W W W . . . . 11 10 . . / @ . . . . @ . @ . . . 10 9 . . G @ . . . . * . . . . . 9 8 . . G G . T T * * . * . . . 8 7 . . G G @ . @ . @ . @ T . . 7 6 . . @ G . . . . . @ . T . . 6 5 . . T @ . . . @ . . T T . . 5 4 . . @ G G * * * . . @ . . . 4 3 . . . G . . . . . . A . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . @ . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . G . W . . . . . . . 1 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 B C D E F G H I J K L M N O The Player list Name Cell Cells Virus id. infected Points Guy Fawkes G 10 2 /dev/joe / 10 0 two-star * 7 0 Thin Man T 7 1 mr cwm W 8 0 Alfvaen A 5 0 Habeus Corpus H 0 0 Nobody gets a virus point this round. Its really too bad for Habeus Corpus, Im wondering if there was a move that could save some of its cells. CarsesraC - -- Good news: I got a job !!! My future company is Getronics Network Services. And I will be working as a helpdeskworker. GNS is also specialised in interworkservices. Jeroen M.W. van Dijk Jeroen M.W. van Dijk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:47:37 +0000 From: dijk1310@worldaccess.nl Subject: Re: Acka: Viruses Alfvean was the first to send in a correct Viruses Grid. Just a moment ago I have send in a wrong grid, please ignore that email and accept this as the only and the correct viruses grid of this round. > > > The virus grid of round 5 > > G's /'s *'s T's W's A's H's > Guy Fawkes dev/joe two-star Thin Man mr cwm Alfvean Habeus Corpus > 4 S F5-E4 4 P I14 4 4 P D5 4 S J10-I11 4 P E13 4 I F10 > 5 P E6 5 P H16 5 P G4 5 S L6-M7 5 P J12 5 P D15 5 > > This the board before generation and with out the move of HC. > > B C D E F G H I J K L M N O > > 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 > 16 . . . . . . / . . . . . . . 16 > 15 . . A . . / / . . . . . . . 15 > 14 . . . A . . . / . . . . . . 14 > 13 . . . A . . . . . . . . . . 13 > 12 . . @ . . . . . W . . . . . 12 > 11 . . . / H H W W . W W . . . 11 > 10 . . . @ H H . . . . . . . . 10 > 9 . . . @ . @ . . * . * . . . 9 > 8 . . . G . T T * * . * . . . 8 > 7 . . G . . . . . . . @ T . . 7 > 6 . . . G . . . . H . . T . . 6 > 5 . . T . . . . . . . T . . . 5 > 4 . . . G G * . * @ @ @ . . . 4 > 3 . . . G . @ . . A A . . . . 3 > 2 . . . . G @ W . . . . . . . 2 > 1 . . . . . @ W . . . . . . . 1 > 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 > -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 > > B C D E F G H I J K L M N O > > Grid after generation 5(tentative): > > B C D E F G H I J K L M N O > > 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 > 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 > 16 . . . . . / / . . . . . . . 16 > 15 . . . . . / / / . . . . . . 15 > 14 . . A A @ . / . . . . . . . 14 > 13 . . A A . . . . . . . . . . 13 > 12 . . @ . . @ @ W W W . . . . 12 > 11 . . / . . . W W W W . . . . 11 > 10 . . / . . . . @ @ . @ . . . 10 > 9 . . G @ . . . . * . . . . . 9 > 8 . . G G . T T * * . * . . . 8 > 7 . . G G @ . @ . @ . @ T . . 7 > 6 . . @ G . . . . . @ . T . . 6 > 5 . . T . . . . @ . . T T . . 5 > 4 . . G G . * * * . . @ . . . 4 > 3 . . . G . . . . . . A . . . 3 > 2 . . . . . . . @ . . . . . . 2 > 1 . . . . G . W . . . . . . . 1 > 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 > -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 > > B C D E F G H I J K L M N O > > /dev/joe / 8 > Alfvaen A 5 > mr cwm W 8 > Guy Fawkes G 10 > ThinMan T 7 > two-star * 7 > Habeous Corpus H 0 > Guy Fawkes has now 3 virus points. CarsesraC - -- Good news: I got a job !!! My future company is Getronics Network Services. And I will be working as a helpdeskworker. GNS is also specialised in interworkservices. Jeroen M.W. van Dijk Jeroen M.W. van Dijk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:40:34 -0500 From: "Bollinger, John C." Subject: RE: Acka: Viruses CarsesraC wrote: > Alfvean was the first to send in a correct Viruses Grid. > Just a moment ago I have send in a wrong grid, please ignore that > email and accept this as the only and the correct viruses grid of > this round. > Unfortunately, Alfvaen's grid still has one error: the new cell at D4 should be clean -- it is adjacent to both T and G. My version of the grid is this: B C D E F G H I J K L M N O 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 16 . . . . . / / . . . . . . . 16 15 . . . . . / / / . . . . . . 15 14 . . A A @ . / . . . . . . . 14 13 . . A A . . . . . . . . . . 13 12 . . @ . . @ @ W W W . . . . 12 11 . . / . . . W W W W . . . . 11 10 . . / . . . . @ @ . @ . . . 10 9 . . G @ . . . . * . . . . . 9 8 . . G G . T T * * . * . . . 8 7 . . G G @ . @ . @ . @ T . . 7 6 . . @ G . . . . . @ . T . . 6 5 . . T . . . . @ . . T T . . 5 4 . . @ G . * * * . . @ . . . 4 3 . . . G . . . . . . A . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . @ . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . G . W . . . . . . . 1 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 B C D E F G H I J K L M N O And the scoring: The Player list Name Cell Cells Virus id. infected Points Guy Fawkes G 9 3 /dev/joe / 8 0 two-star * 7 0 Thin Man T 7 1 mr cwm W 8 0 Alfvaen A 5 0 Habeus Corpus H 0 0 Even though Guy Fawkes' total is reduced by one, he still gets a virus point. > Guy Fawkes has now 3 virus points. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:13:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Aaron Humphrey Subject: Acka: Why Uninfect? Maybe I'm blind, but I just can't see any benefit whatsoever to the "Uninfect" move in Viruses, unless you wanted to make sure you washed out of the game that much more quickly. I mean, "Destroy" might be useful if you could use it to deprive an opponent's cell of neighbours...but "Uninfect" won't result in any fewer cells, only in fewer cells infected with one's own virus. Can anyone else see something I can't? - -- - --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/) Song In My Head--No Doubt:Don't Speak Current Book--Liavek:Festival Week The Salmon Of Correction: A useful creature for whapping those who annoy you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:37:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "A.K.A. TheWiz" Subject: Re: Acka: Why Uninfect? >Maybe I'm blind, but I just can't see any benefit whatsoever to the >"Uninfect" move in Viruses, unless you wanted to make sure you washed out >of the game that much more quickly. I mean, "Destroy" might be useful if >you could use it to deprive an opponent's cell of neighbours...but >"Uninfect" won't result in any fewer cells, only in fewer cells infected >with one's own virus. Can anyone else see something I can't? Yes, forming patterns that have a certain effect. ____________________________________________________________________________ |The Mauve Baron| Beep |dankna@bergen.org * http://www.bergen.org/~dankna| |---------------| Blip |-------------------------------------------------| | Dan Knapp | Bonk | This notice copyright (C)1997 Dan Knapp | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:10:40 -0700 From: **Alexandre Muniz Subject: Re: Acka: Why Uninfect? This might be pretty weak, but suppose in a three player game, players A and C have 9 virus points and player B has considerably fewer. Player C sees that e has no chance to win the current round, but by uninfecting a cell that was slated to create a couple clean cells with cells infected by B, the new cells that are created are infected by B, who is than able to win the round, where A would have won it otherwise. Uninfecting a cell will never give you a numerical advantage in infected cells, but there are other considerations. **two-star Aaron Humphrey wrote: > > Maybe I'm blind, but I just can't see any benefit whatsoever to the > "Uninfect" move in Viruses, unless you wanted to make sure you washed out > of the game that much more quickly. I mean, "Destroy" might be useful if > you could use it to deprive an opponent's cell of neighbours...but > "Uninfect" won't result in any fewer cells, only in fewer cells infected > with one's own virus. Can anyone else see something I can't? > > -- > --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/) > Song In My Head--No Doubt:Don't Speak > Current Book--Liavek:Festival Week > The Salmon Of Correction: A useful creature for whapping those who annoy you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:49 -0500 From: "Bollinger, John C." Subject: RE: Acka: Why Uninfect? Red Barn wrote: [Alfvaen wrote:] > >Maybe I'm blind, but I just can't see any benefit whatsoever to the > >"Uninfect" move in Viruses, unless you wanted to make sure you washed > out > >of the game that much more quickly. I mean, "Destroy" might be > useful if > >you could use it to deprive an opponent's cell of neighbours...but > >"Uninfect" won't result in any fewer cells, only in fewer cells > infected > >with one's own virus. Can anyone else see something I can't? > > Yes, forming patterns that have a certain effect. > And what effect(s) do you have in mind, exactly? The overall evolution of the pattern of cells is independant of which cells are infected by which virus. The only thing that the distribution of viruses effects is the future distribution of viruses. That is, the viruses ride along on the overall pattern and create a "fine structure" so to speak. two-star brought up a possible use for the "uninfect" move: to help another player. Indeed, I can see no other reason to use the uninfect move, and I suppose that in a multiplayer game there may be some advantage to helping one opponent against another. Overall, however, I see very little use for it. ThinMan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:24:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Aaron Humphrey Subject: Re: Acka: Why Uninfect? > >Maybe I'm blind, but I just can't see any benefit whatsoever to the > >"Uninfect" move in Viruses, unless you wanted to make sure you washed out > >of the game that much more quickly. I mean, "Destroy" might be useful if > >you could use it to deprive an opponent's cell of neighbours...but > >"Uninfect" won't result in any fewer cells, only in fewer cells infected > >with one's own virus. Can anyone else see something I can't? > > Yes, forming patterns that have a certain effect. I can see benefiting by destroying a cell, which might then prevent others from having too many neighbours and thus allow them to survive, but uninfecting would seem entirely without benefit to oneself...unless, as two-star mentioned, you were willing to benefit someone else for other purposes. However, I wonder if the game might not do as well without it. - -- - --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/) Song In My Head--Alanis Morissette:You Learn Current Book--Liavek:Festival Week Well done is half begun. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:42:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "A.K.A. TheWiz" Subject: RE: Acka: Why Uninfect? >And what effect(s) do you have in mind, exactly? The overall evolution >of the pattern of cells is independant of which cells are infected by >which virus. The only thing that the distribution of viruses effects >is the future distribution of viruses. That is, the viruses ride along >on the overall pattern and create a "fine structure" so to speak. Well, like setting up a glider, for example. Out of some other shape. - -Red Barn ____________________________________________________________________________ |The Mauve Baron| Beep |dankna@bergen.org * http://www.bergen.org/~dankna| |---------------| Blip |-------------------------------------------------| | Dan Knapp | Bonk | This notice copyright (C)1997 Dan Knapp | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:10:47 -0500 From: "Bollinger, John C." Subject: RE: Acka: Why Uninfect? Red Barn wrote: [I wrote:] > >And what effect(s) do you have in mind, exactly? The overall > evolution > >of the pattern of cells is independant of which cells are infected by > >which virus. The only thing that the distribution of viruses effects > >is the future distribution of viruses. That is, the viruses ride > along > >on the overall pattern and create a "fine structure" so to speak. > > Well, like setting up a glider, for example. Out of some other > shape. > You are missing the point. Uninfecting a cell cannot help in setting up a glider, or any other pattern of _cells_. It can only change the pattern of viruses, which only affects the future distribution of viruses, _not_ the future distribution of cells. ThinMan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:44:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Aaron Humphrey Subject: Acka: Virus, corrected yet again I just hacked myself up a little Perl script to try to automate the virus-generation calculation process, and discovered yet another error in the most recent Viruses grid, which I calculated... (It's those asterisks that two-star's using...I keep thinking they're @'s, or dots, or something...:-) The error this time is that the new cell at H7 should be clean, not infected with ThinManVirus, because two-star's virus battles it to a standstill. (I offer the services of my Perl script to anyone who wants to calculate Virus moves, and can run Perl...:-) Here, then, is the _real_ correct grid. Honest and for true. B C D E F G H I J K L M N O 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 16 . . . . . / / . . . . . . . 16 15 . . . . . / / / . . . . . . 15 14 . . A A @ . / . . . . . . . 14 13 . . A A . . . . . . . . . . 13 12 . . @ . . @ @ W W W . . . . 12 11 . . / . . . W W W W . . . . 11 10 . . / . . . . @ @ . @ . . . 10 9 . . G @ . . . . * . . . . . 9 8 . . G G . T T * * . * . . . 8 7 . . G G @ . @ . @ . @ T . . 7 6 . . @ G . . . . . @ . T . . 6 5 . . T . . . . @ . . T T . . 5 4 . . @ G . * * * . . @ . . . 4 3 . . . G . . . . . . A . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . @ . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . G . W . . . . . . . 1 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 B C D E F G H I J K L M N O Once again the virus points don't change, the number of live cells does: Name Cell Cells Virus id. infected Points /dev/joe / 8 0 Alfvaen A 5 0 mr cwm W 8 0 Guy Fawkes G 9 3 ThinMan T 7 1 two-star * 7 0 Habeous Corpus H 0 0 - -- - --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/) Song In My Head--Billy Idol:Mony Mony Current Book--Liavek:Festival Week "Joey, do you want to put _Little Women_ in the freezer?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:59:34 -0500 From: "Bollinger, John C." Subject: RE: Acka: Virus, corrected yet again Alfvaen wrote: > I just hacked myself up a little Perl script to try to automate the > virus-generation calculation process, > Good. > and discovered yet another error in > the most recent Viruses grid, which I calculated... (It's those > asterisks > that two-star's using...I keep thinking they're @'s, or dots, or > something...:-) The error this time is that the new cell at H7 should > be > clean, not infected with ThinManVirus, because two-star's virus > battles it > to a standstill. (I offer the services of my Perl script to anyone > who > wants to calculate Virus moves, and can run Perl...:-) > > Here, then, is the _real_ correct grid. Honest and for true. > Umm, Alfvaen? All three of the round 5 viruses grids heretofore published had a clean cell at H7 already. Your latest "correction" to the grid appears identical to the correction that I distributed this morning. On the good side, it looks like you, I, and Larry Wall agree on what the current grid should look like. ThinMan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:15:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Aaron Humphrey Subject: Re: Acka: Virus, corrected yet again > Umm, Alfvaen? All three of the round 5 viruses grids heretofore > published had a clean cell at H7 already. Your latest "correction" > to the grid appears identical to the correction that I distributed this > morning. On the good side, it looks like you, I, and Larry Wall agree > on what the current grid should look like. Foo. You're right, I forgot that I'd even corrected that before I sent it off to CarsesraC, but it was wrong in the one on disk here. I thwap myself with the Salmon of Correction once again. But by gum, I now have a Perl script that works...:-) - -- - --Alfvaen(Web page: http://www.terranet.ab.ca/~aaron/) Song In My Head--The Pursuit of Happiness:New Language Current Book--Liavek:Festival Week Keep reading until your glasses prescription changes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:07:43 -0400 From: Dan Knapp (A.K.A. TheWiz) Subject: RE: Acka: Why Uninfect? > You are missing the point. Uninfecting a cell cannot help in setting > up a glider, or any other pattern of _cells_. It can only change the > pattern of viruses, which only affects the future distribution of > viruses, _not_ the future distribution of cells. Ah, I suppose reading the rules helps :). Hum, I agree: it's only useful for cooperative play. - -Red Barn ____________________________________________________________________________ |The Mauve Baron| Beep |dankna@bergen.org * http://www.bergen.org/~dankna| |---------------| Blip |-------------------------------------------------| | Dan Knapp | Bonk | This notice copyright (C)1997 Dan Knapp | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1997 19:50:16 CST/CDT From: Shimmin@hrn.bradley.edu Subject: RE: Acka: Why Uninfect? AC>>And what effect(s) do you have in mind, exactly? The overall evolution AC>>of the pattern of cells is independant of which cells are infected by AC>>which virus. The only thing that the distribution of viruses effects AC>>is the future distribution of viruses. That is, the viruses ride along AC>>on the overall pattern and create a "fine structure" so to speak. AC> Well, like setting up a glider, for example. Out of some other shape. AC>-Red Barn AC>____________________________________________________________________________ AC>|The Mauve Baron| Beep |dankna@bergen.org * http://www.bergen.org/~dankna| AC>|---------------| Blip |-------------------------------------------------| AC>| Dan Knapp | Bonk | This notice copyright (C)1997 Dan Knapp | AC>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As others have pointed out, the survival or death of cells is independent of their infection or lack thereof by viruses. "destroy" might be a useful move for setting up a glider, but uninfect leaves the cells intact. Aside from diplomacy considerations, I cannot think of any situation where having a cell clean rather than infected with your virus would lead to an advantage. Guy Fawkes ------------------------------ End of Ackanomic Games Digest V2 #70 ************************************